The importance of Mason's season last year

[CDu]

With the offseason upon us, it seems like as good a time as any to bring this up. So I wanted to discuss how important it was that Mason had such a great year this year. Prior to Mason's 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg season in which he was unquestionably a focal point of the offense, we had gone 6 seasons without a true post player averaging above 11.1 ppg. And prior to 2012, we had gone 5 seasons without a true post player even reaching 8 ppg. We were missing out on big men (McGary and Parker) who were repeating the "Duke post players just set screens" mantra that was no doubt being pushed by rival coaches on the recruiting trail. And while that argument was misleading (when Duke has had bigs capable of scoring in bunches, we've used them), the evidence was starting to mount to support it and create a vicious cycle (our post players fail to score enough to entice the elite big man recruits; failure to get those elite recruits means our future post players won't be able to score much either).

Thankfully, Mason had a solid year last year, nearly averaging a double-double. But even still, his role last year was clearly secondary to our perimeter guys (Rivers, Curry, and Kelly). But then he followed that solid season up with a monster year this year, being in the discussion for player of the year nationally and being a 2nd team All-American. In doing so, he took a big step in changing the recruiting picture for Duke basketball. Now, Coach K can reference Mason as a guy who, once he developed his offensive game, became a focal point of the offense in the post. He can now use Mason to say, "see, whenever I've had an elite big man, I've used that elite big man," and he has the recent evidence to back it up. From Elton Brand, to Carlos Boozer, to Sheldon Williams, to Mason Plumlee, Coach K has had four different post players combine for 5 seasons of 15+ ppg (and 8 seasons of 13+ ppg) in the past 16 years.

It's quite possible that this season helps to eliminate any doubt in the mind of next year's top post recruit (Jahlil Okafor). If we get Okafor, we should be able to further distance ourselves from the "Duke big men just set screens" mantra. And it could all stem to some degree from this critical season produced by Mason Plumlee.

[lotusland]

I agree that Mason's season helped to quiet the growing perception that Big men are secondary in the Duke offense. It was exaggerated for sure but after watching Duke go down firing up shot afer shot from the perimeter guys against Lehigh without making even a half hearted effort to exploit their advantage down low it seemed like we were in a bad rut that would be diffult to overcome. Off course we don't know what was actually discussed between Perky and K but the chatter at least created the impression the Duke needed to provide some reassurance regarding their commitment to post play and Mason's developement. That combined with recruiting misses and alleged comments from recruits about setting screens it really seemed like we dodged a bullet with Mason deciding to return and by somewhat surprisingly picking up Amile at the last minute. I think landing Jahill is extremely important to keep from falling back in the same rut or at least perception given that it has still been a while since we landed a true center not named Plumlee.

[mkirsh]

Agree with CDu about Mason's season changing the perception of how bigs are used at Duke. In addition, Mason's four years show that bigs can develop at Duke as well, as Mason the senior is a vastly improved player over Mason in previous years, which should be nice to point to on the recruiting trail.

[miramar]

From 2006-07 to 2011-12 (McRoberts' sophomore year to Mason's junior year), each season Duke had one or two centers who were highly-ranked recruits but none of them put up big numbers. McRoberts was supposed to be better than Hansbrough, Zoubek was a 4/5 star recruit according to Scout and Rivals, and Mason received 5 stars from both.

While the narrative was that Duke couldn't develop big men, the reality was that McRoberts wasn't nearly as talented as everyone expected, Zoubek was a very productive member of a national championship team, and Mason improved every year until he became an outstanding player. The story would have been much different if we had had point guards who could break down defenses and get the big men some easy scores, but I think that this urban legend has been put to rest.

The reality is that Coach K will figure out a way to use the talent he has, and I hope that Okafor and any other big man will realize the many advantages of playing at Duke.

[subzero02]

With the offseason upon us, it seems like as good a time as any to bring this up. So I wanted to discuss how important it was that Mason had such a great year this year. Prior to Mason's 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg season in which he was unquestionably a focal point of the offense, we had gone 6 seasons without a true post player averaging above 11.1 ppg. And prior to 2012, we had gone 5 seasons without a true post player even reaching 8 ppg. We were missing out on big men (McGary and Parker) who were repeating the "Duke post players just set screens" mantra that was no doubt being pushed by rival coaches on the recruiting trail. And while that argument was misleading (when Duke has had bigs capable of scoring in bunches, we've used them), the evidence was starting to mount to support it and create a vicious cycle (our post players fail to score enough to entice the elite big man recruits; failure to get those elite recruits means our future post players won't be able to score much either).

Thankfully, Mason had a solid year last year, nearly averaging a double-double. But even still, his role last year was clearly secondary to our perimeter guys (Rivers, Curry, and Kelly). But then he followed that solid season up with a monster year this year, being in the discussion for player of the year nationally and being a 2nd team All-American. In doing so, he took a big step in changing the recruiting picture for Duke basketball. Now, Coach K can reference Mason as a guy who, once he developed his offensive game, became a focal point of the offense in the post. He can now use Mason to say, "see, whenever I've had an elite big man, I've used that elite big man," and he has the recent evidence to back it up. From Elton Brand, to Carlos Boozer, to Sheldon Williams, to Mason Plumlee, Coach K has had four different post players combine for 5 seasons of 15+ ppg (and 8 seasons of 13+ ppg) in the past 16 years.

It's quite possible that this season helps to eliminate any doubt in the mind of next year's top post recruit (Jahlil Okafor). If we get Okafor, we should be able to further distance ourselves from the "Duke big men just set screens" mantra. And it could all stem to some degree from this critical season produced by Mason Plumlee.

It's Shelden

[CDu]

It's Shelden

Yes, I know. So sorry to have offended you with that one typo.

[Turtleboy]

Yes, I know. So sorry to have offended you with that one typo.The real problem is you make him quote an entire post just because one letter bothered him. Please don't do that again.

[Kedsy]

In addition, Mason's four years show that bigs can develop at Duke as well, as Mason the senior is a vastly improved player over Mason in previous years, which should be nice to point to on the recruiting trail.

Also, I'm not sure where Miles fits into this discussion (since he wasn't a big scorer), but when you talk about development Coach K took a lightly regarded recruit and turned him into a first round draft pick.

[UrinalCake]

I agree that Mason's stellar year should do a lot to change the perception that Coach K refuses to use his big men. I would argue though that Mason is not a traditional, back-to-the-basket big man. I would love to see a breakdown of how many of his points came from a.) transition dunks, b.) alley-oop dunks off of set plays, c.) running hook shots where he initially receives the ball 18 feet from the basket, and d.) actual low-post moves. I would guess that the latter accounted for about 10% of his points. Now I'm not saying this to dump on Mason. I absolutely love the guy. He worked his butt off, improved every year, was a great student, and was somehow underappreciated by many Duke fans. But he is not a center. He played out of position his whole career (except when he was in the game with Miles) and is mostly definitely not going to be a center in the NBA.

There's nothing wrong with developing an NBA power forward. It's pretty common for college centers to become NBA power forwards. But I think that when most fans obsess about developing big men, they're referring to this idea of a back-to-the-basket center who you can just dump the ball into and let him score, and Mason doesn't really fit that description.

[miramar]

Since Barnes and McAdoo are not the dominant players everyone thought they would be, does this mean that UNC is going to get a reputation for not developing their forwards?

I wonder what Tony Parker has to say. I know he puts a lot of thought into these things.

[Kedsy]

I agree that Mason's stellar year should do a lot to change the perception that Coach K refuses to use his big men. I would argue though that Mason is not a traditional, back-to-the-basket big man. I would love to see a breakdown of how many of his points came from a.) transition dunks, b.) alley-oop dunks off of set plays, c.) running hook shots where he initially receives the ball 18 feet from the basket, and d.) actual low-post moves. I would guess that the latter accounted for about 10% of his points. Now I'm not saying this to dump on Mason. I absolutely love the guy. He worked his butt off, improved every year, was a great student, and was somehow underappreciated by many Duke fans. But he is not a center. He played out of position his whole career (except when he was in the game with Miles) and is mostly definitely not going to be a center in the NBA.

There's nothing wrong with developing an NBA power forward. It's pretty common for college centers to become NBA power forwards. But I think that when most fans obsess about developing big men, they're referring to this idea of a back-to-the-basket center who you can just dump the ball into and let him score, and Mason doesn't really fit that description.

I don't entirely agree. We dumped the ball down in the post to Mason plenty. And most of those hook shots started from close to the basket, not from 18 feet away. In fact, though in the past Mason seemed to prefer to face up, in 2012-13, Mason almost always received the ball with his back to the basket. At least that's the way I saw it.

Mason may not be a traditional, back-to-the-basket big man, but if he wasn't one, who was (in college)? Frankly, how many NBA players who score a lot of points are "true" back-to-the-basket big men. Maybe five? Maybe not that many. Mason may not be a center at the next level, but that's what he played in college, and it's as much his "natural" college position as it is anybody's.

Just my opinion, of course.

[tommy]

Mason's impressive improvement over his four years and his outstanding senior season certainly help. They help a lot. But let's not put our heads in the sand here, guys. Coming on the heels of Zoubek and then three Plumlees, it would be a huge boost to Duke's image and reputation with up-and-coming players, and go a long way to burying some of the stereotyping that has gone on, if the Blue Devils could successfully recruit a top-notch, back-to-the-basket African-American center, and for that young man to thrive under Coach K's (and Wojo's) tutelage. Jahlil Okafor is a critical, critical recruit.

[CDu]

I don't entirely agree. We dumped the ball down in the post to Mason plenty. And most of those hook shots started from close to the basket, not from 18 feet away. In fact, though in the past Mason seemed to prefer to face up, in 2012-13, Mason almost always received the ball with his back to the basket. At least that's the way I saw it.

Mason may not be a traditional, back-to-the-basket big man, but if he wasn't one, who was (in college)? Frankly, how many NBA players who score a lot of points are "true" back-to-the-basket big men. Maybe five? Maybe not that many. Mason may not be a center at the next level, but that's what he played in college, and it's as much his "natural" college position as it is anybody's.

Just my opinion, of course.

I completely agree. Mason is an NBA PF/C, but his natural position in college was C. He didn't have the quickness or the skillset of a college PF.

Granted, he also didn't come to Duke with the post game, either. But he certainly developed one. As a senior, he got most of his points as a back to the basket player.

[johnb]

Mason's impressive improvement over his four years and his outstanding senior season certainly help. They help a lot. But let's not put our heads in the sand here, guys. Coming on the heels of Zoubek and then three Plumlees, it would be a huge boost to Duke's image and reputation with up-and-coming players, and go a long way to burying some of the stereotyping that has gone on, if the Blue Devils could successfully recruit a top-notch, back-to-the-basket African-American center, and for that young man to thrive under Coach K's (and Wojo's) tutelage. Jahlil Okafor is a critical, critical recruit.

Yes, any current recruit might notice that our centers have been recently white, but he'd also notice that for most of the years, the center was a Plumlee, and at other times, he was a white/black four-armed fellow by the name of Thomas Zoubek. He might also notice that the team is mostly black, though he might mostly notice that the seniors never experienced a week being voted out of the top 10 and that the players genuinely liked each other.

We do have several back-to-the-basket African-American centers currently playing in the NBA (Brand, Boozer, and the Landlord). How many college teams produced a tougher (or richer) trio?

My favorite moment in the NBA season was watching LeBron in the closing minutes of the loss to Chicago that ended their streak. Frustrated, he put his shoulder down and ran purposefully into Carlos. It was a tough move by a huge, powerful athlete. I'd still be in the hospital, weeping, if I'd been on the receiving end. Carlos barely shifted in his shoes, made no facial grimace, no retaliation, but listened for the whistle and went back to work.

Yes, it would be great to get Okafor, but I don't think we need to be sheepish about our track record. There just aren't that many big guys who can get minutes at Duke. As one recruiting analyst once said, "there's a pretty girl on every street corner in America, but a 7 footer is hard to find." (I'm sure he meant to be gender neutral and would no doubt apologize for perpetuating stereotype rather than adding 'handsome boy," but he likely thought that a more correct quote would detract from the aesthetic punch).

[CDu]

Mason's impressive improvement over his four years and his outstanding senior season certainly help. They help a lot. But let's not put our heads in the sand here, guys. Coming on the heels of Zoubek and then three Plumlees, it would be a huge boost to Duke's image and reputation with up-and-coming players, and go a long way to burying some of the stereotyping that has gone on, if the Blue Devils could successfully recruit a top-notch, back-to-the-basket African-American center, and for that young man to thrive under Coach K's (and Wojo's) tutelage. Jahlil Okafor is a critical, critical recruit.

No disagreement there. Part of my point was that Mason's performance this year will no doubt help in the recruitment of Okafor. Landing Okafor would likely slam the door shut on the "Duke isn't a good fit for a big man" narrative.

[David]

Interesting post CDu, thanks for raising this issue. I agree that Mason's season provides a nice data point in further establishing that Duke can develop big men (!) and these big men do more than set screens, etc. However, I wonder about the importance of data in breaking these stereotypes. In my experience, the type of person that believes these stereotypes to be true about Duke big men generally doesn't respond to data or logic. As an example, try having a discussion with a UNC or Maryland fan on this issue. :eek:

An interesting related question is whether big men recruits believe these stereotypes and whether their perception of Duke is impacted by Mason's season. If so, then the recruitment of Okafor may actually be assisted by Mason's senior season.

[Kedsy]

We do have several back-to-the-basket African-American centers currently playing in the NBA (Brand, Boozer, and the Landlord). How many college teams produced a tougher (or richer) trio?

Well, Shelden has been out of the NBA for a year at this point. And by NBA standards, Elton is an old man on his last legs, and Boozer's getting there.


An interesting related question is whether big men recruits believe these stereotypes and whether their perception of Duke is impacted by Mason's season. If so, then the recruitment of Okafor may actually be assisted by Mason's senior season.

Earlier this season, my recollection is Okafor reacted very strongly against the stereotype, saying it wasn't true at all and seeming a bit angry at even the suggestion. So I'm not sure Mason's senior season will have any meaningful impact on him. Although I suppose it may make it easier for him to justify his decision if his decision is Duke. Every little bit helps.

[UrinalCake]

Landing Okafor would likely slam the door shut on the "Duke isn't a good fit for a big man" narrative.

Well, we'd have to do more than just land him. Given his lofty ranking, anything less than turning him into a lottery pick after one year would be seen as a disappointment. As David said, critics are going to find negatives no matter what, and many outsiders would say that the fact that it took Mason four years to develop is a negative strike against Duke.

Of course, we kind of do the same thing too, ragging on UNC for the fact that Barnes stayed for two years...

[MCFinARL]

Earlier this season, my recollection is Okafor reacted very strongly against the stereotype, saying it wasn't true at all and seeming a bit angry at even the suggestion. So I'm not sure Mason's senior season will have any meaningful impact on him. Although I suppose it may make it easier for him to justify his decision if his decision is Duke. Every little bit helps.

Yes, he did react that way, and he mentioned Mason by name. http://www.usatodayhss.com/news/article/top-junior-center-jahlil-okafor-duke-visit-basketball-season In an April interview with Blue Devil Nation (pretty sure this is not behind the firewall, so I am not violating any rules), Okafor said Mason "had an amazing year." So he has been paying attention, at least.

You may be right that Mason's senior season won't have any added impact, but a bad senior season by Mason might have changed his impression of Duke a bit, so at least we can be glad that didn't happen.

[Kedsy]

Yes, he did react that way, and he mentioned Mason by name. http://www.usatodayhss.com/news/article/top-junior-center-jahlil-okafor-duke-visit-basketball-season

Yeah, I think that's the article I was talking about, all the way back in October. And yes, I agree Mason's great year justifying Jahlil's earlier remarks is good reinforcement for Jahlil and can't be anything other than positive.

[UrinalCake]

...it would be a huge boost to Duke's image and reputation with up-and-coming players, and go a long way to burying some of the stereotyping that has gone on, if the Blue Devils could successfully recruit a top-notch, back-to-the-basket African-American center....

Wow, that kind of opens up a can of worms. I think the racial stereotyping that used to happen about Duke players is a thing if the past. Certainly not something I'd expect rival coaches to use to negatively recruit against us. I do hope we get this Tarik kid to transfer in though, he'd go a long way towards convincing people we can recruit Black players 8-)

[CDu]

Wow, that kind of opens up a can of worms. I think the racial stereotyping that used to happen about Duke players is a thing if the past. Certainly not something I'd expect rival coaches to use to negatively recruit against us. I do hope we get this Tarik kid to transfer in though, he'd go a long way towards convincing people we can recruit Black players 8-)

Yeah, I too think the racial argument is a thing of the past. The narrative du jour is that Duke bigs just set screens. Last year, combined with (hopefully) a strong season from Jahlil Okafor, would nip that argument in the bud.

[superdave]

Wow, that kind of opens up a can of worms. I think the racial stereotyping that used to happen about Duke players is a thing if the past. Certainly not something I'd expect rival coaches to use to negatively recruit against us. I do hope we get this Tarik kid to transfer in though, he'd go a long way towards convincing people we can recruit Black players 8-)


Yeah, I too think the racial argument is a thing of the past. The narrative du jour is that Duke bigs just set screens. Last year, combined with (hopefully) a strong season from Jahlil Okafor, would nip that argument in the bud.

Mason certainly helped improve the view of Duke bigs. While remembering that Zoubek had an earth-shattering rebounding rate his senior season, it may be even more important that Mason got a lot of highlight reel dunks on his successful path. Perception goes a long way and dunks are fun.

But on the racial stereotype that has certainly coloured the perception of the Duke program in the past, Coach K winning (https://www.google.com/search?q=coach+k+gold+medal&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.dmg&biw=1280&bih=899&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=ZmWNUfq8NKLg0gGWvYCACA#imgrc=RatvHQuqe31bYM%3A% 3BDw73gp3uP3BbEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcdn.faniq.co m%252Fimages%252Fblog%252Ftayshaunmedal.jpg%3Bhttp %253A%252F%252Fwww.faniq.com%252Fblog%252FTayshaun-Prince-Wont-Let-Mike-Krzyzewski-Wear-His-Olympic-Gold-Medal-Blog-11372%3B627%3B418) two golds and being universally loved by the members (http://www.danpatrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/coachk.lebron1-300x204.jpg) of those teams has also paid enormous dividends with recruits.

We have a great shot at Okafor and some other big time recruits the newt few years. Mason's success is a big part of that. I only wish his senior year could have gone a little longer.

[turnandburn55]

Yeah, I too think the racial argument is a thing of the past. The narrative du jour is that Duke bigs just set screens. Last year, combined with (hopefully) a strong season from Jahlil Okafor, would nip that argument in the bud.

Not sure Mr McGary feels put in his place just yet. I mean, it's one thing to nod approvingly at Mason's senior year as a Duke fan. It's a different thing as an outsider to see a highly athletic big man to take four years to become an All-American relying heavily on the uncontested dunk to score.

[Kedsy]

Not sure Mr McGary feels put in his place just yet. I mean, it's one thing to nod approvingly at Mason's senior year as a Duke fan. It's a different thing as an outsider to see a highly athletic big man to take four years to become an All-American relying heavily on the uncontested dunk to score.

Really? How many All American big men have there been in those four years, no matter how many years it took them to get there?