Manchester United - Where Do They Go From Here? (Duke Related)

[flyingdutchdevil]

As is all over the news, Sir Alex Ferguson, the Manager for Manchester United, is retiring at the end of this year. Ferguson has coached ManU for 26 years, bringing major success to this club.

The reason that I think that this is important to Duke is because the two storied programs are quite similar. Both ManU and Duke did have success before Ferguson/Coach K, but no one would have called them a blue blood program. Rather, once those coaches took the reigns, those programs (or clubs) just took off: in 26 years, his team has won 893 games, 13 Premier League championships, and 2 Champions League trophies. He is unquestionably the most successful soccer coach alive. In 33 years at Duke, Coach K has won 884 games, 12 ACC Reg season titles, 13 ACC Tourney titles, 11 Final Fours, and 4 National Championships.

With Alex Ferguson stepping down, there is obviously a lot of speculation about who will take the reigns. But it will be very interesting, from a Duke perspective, to see how everything works out. I will be monitoring the situation closely as I feel that Duke can learn a thing or two over the manager selection and how ManU performs in the next 2-3 years.

[hurleyfor3]

First off, all I know about soccer is that everything in soccer has a different name than an American fan of other sports would typically use, including the name "soccer".

With that perspective, how influential is a "manager" in soccer? Is he more like a coach, or like a GM? It seems personnel decisions are far more important than deciding whom to substitute for when it's three-zip with five minutes left in the game. Er, three-nil in the eighty-fifth minute of the match. Go ahead and flame me, I can take the points, but I want to educate myself here.

[flyingdutchdevil]

First off, all I know about soccer is that everything in soccer has a different name than an American fan of other sports would typically use, including the name "soccer".

With that perspective, how influential is a "manager" in soccer? Is he more like a coach, or like a GM? It seems personnel decisions are far more important than deciding whom to substitute for when it's three-zip with five minutes left in the game. Er, three-nil in the eighty-fifth minute of the match. Go ahead and flame me, I can take the points, but I want to educate myself here.

A manager in soccer is the same as a college bball coach: he is the main in-game coach, he is in charge of recruiting, and he is primarily responsible for the wins and losses of the team. Ferguson and Coach K are extremely similar in what they prioritize: loyalty, hard work, and a winning mentality. Plus, both are insanely good motivators.

[luburch]

Fairly certain it's already been reported that David Moyes will take over at United.

[killerleft]

Yup- supposedly a formality. Moyes is the man.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10044158/David-Moyes-will-replace-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-as-Manchester-United-manager.html

[JohnGalt]

The reason that I think that this is important to Duke is because the two storied programs are quite similar. Both ManU and Duke did have success before Ferguson/Coach K, but no one would have called them a blue blood program. Rather, once those coaches took the reigns, those programs (or clubs) just took off: in 26 years, his team has won 893 games, 13 Premier League championships, and 2 Champions League trophies. He is unquestionably the most successful soccer coach alive. In 33 years at Duke, Coach K has won 884 games, 12 ACC Reg season titles, 13 ACC Tourney titles, 11 Final Fours, and 4 National Championships.

Unquestionably is too strong. Mourinho has won 7 leagues in 4 different countries as well as 3 European Cups in 2 different countries...2 of which were Champions League Trophies. And he's done that in like 1/4 of the time it's taken Lord Ferg. His Madrid teams have absolutely wreaked with talent but unfortuantely appear to have fallen in the middle of the age of the Catalans and Bavarians. It's obviously impossible to categorically decide but in this poster's admitedly biased opinion, having routine changes in scenarios (not to mention languages, culture, piggy bank) and all the while achieving arguably equal measures of success in each location is the more challenging prospect. Mourinho's CV is extraordinary. Reasonable arguments could also be made for Del Bosque, Capello, Ancelotti, and even Pep...depending upon your metrics.


First off, all I know about soccer is that everything in soccer has a different name than an American fan of other sports would typically use, including the name "soccer".

With that perspective, how influential is a "manager" in soccer? Is he more like a coach, or like a GM? It seems personnel decisions are far more important than deciding whom to substitute for when it's three-zip with five minutes left in the game. Er, three-nil in the eighty-fifth minute of the match. Go ahead and flame me, I can take the points, but I want to educate myself here.

This is actually something that makes Fergie's retirement so interesting, intimate, and widespread. For an entire generation of United supporters (i.e. my friends/kids my age), ALL they have known is SAF. I'm not a United fan so I can't say I'm as emotionally involved with him leaving as a number of my friends but I have to imagine I'll go through the same process when Coach K steps down. Not only that though, not a single player (no, not even Giggs or Scholes) has experienced Manchester United under different leadership. Ferguson is really the last in the line of the old-school manager-types where he commands complete control of everything from player developement of Under-8s all the way through player selection for the first team. Despite his terrifying injury record and relative under-achievement until his last season with the Arsenal, SAF instructed the purse to spend 25mill on Van Persie. There seems to be no logic in that. Although it happens regularly, you aren't suppose to spend in that manner (after 1 exceptional year in 10, I mean). It's unsustainable. But regardless, it's worked and RVP continues to score and hasn't had any injury hiccups. My point is that SAF has such complete control over everything Manchester United - one of the most wealthy franchies in all of worldwide sports- that following that act will be extremely interesting to watch.

Another aspect is the Ferguson-Effect...something that is closely related to the Cameron-Effect or the Jordan-Effect. Ferguson has been accused of bullying linesman and using his repuation to sway decisions more times than can be recorded. "Fergie Time" is something that is routinely used by pundits to indicate stoppage time that appears inordinately high for the amount of stoppage that actually occurred during the game. Not only that, it seems to mysteriously happen in matches where United are down 0-1, 1-2 or tied 0-0, 1-1 (or whatever) thus giving them the ability to score a late goal and steal a point or 2. And this is something the public is so accutely aware of that even the pundits joke about it! It's actually named!


Fairly certain it's already been reported that David Moyes will take over at United.

See above. I have to imagine the OP meant a little more than just "who manages MU next?" It truly is the ending of a certain kind of era in English soccer...and possibly European soccer. For right or for wrong...for all of the positive and negative influence he exterted on the game, English football in particular will be different for quite some time.

[duke74]

Despite his terrifying injury record and relative under-achievement until his last season with the Arsenal, SAF instructed the purse to spend 25mill on Van Persie. There seems to be no logic in that. Although it happens regularly, you aren't suppose to spend in that manner (after 1 exceptional year in 10, I mean). It's unsustainable. But regardless, it's worked and RVP continues to score and hasn't had any injury hiccups.



As a Gunners fan, I hope RVP is damned for all time. Injured almost his whole career with us until a wonderous break-out season, then slimes his way to ManUre. Looking forward to his next injury. (Just a FEW sour grapes, admittedly, but I hoped the same thing for Jose Reyes when he slinked off to the Fish. At least I'm consistent.)

[HS Dukie]

As a Liverpool FC supporter, I can't say I will miss SAF, his success during the BPL era, or his influence over the FA. I'm also pleased to see Moyes taking the reigns of the Mancs, seeing as he's never managed to win at Anfield. :cool:

[Atlanta Duke]

As is all over the news, Sir Alex Ferguson, the Manager for Manchester United, is retiring at the end of this year. Ferguson has coached ManU for 26 years, bringing major success to this club.

The reason that I think that this is important to Duke is because the two storied programs are quite similar. Both ManU and Duke did have success before Ferguson/Coach K, but no one would have called them a blue blood program. Rather, once those coaches took the reigns, those programs (or clubs) just took off: in 26 years, his team has won 893 games, 13 Premier League championships, and 2 Champions League trophies. He is unquestionably the most successful soccer coach alive. In 33 years at Duke, Coach K has won 884 games, 12 ACC Reg season titles, 13 ACC Tourney titles, 11 Final Fours, and 4 National Championships.

With Alex Ferguson stepping down, there is obviously a lot of speculation about who will take the reigns. But it will be very interesting, from a Duke perspective, to see how everything works out. I will be monitoring the situation closely as I feel that Duke can learn a thing or two over the manager selection and how ManU performs in the next 2-3 years.

Dan Shanoff at USA Today discusses the Ferguson retirement and has this list of the 5 toughest coaching position to fill

This isn’t a historical list — replacing John Wooden or Bear Bryant, although those legends’ historical success still infuses their teams — but the Top 5 toughest current coaching seats to fill, in the event the coach left or retired:

(1) Alabama football (Nick Saban)
(2) Manchester United (Alex Ferguson)
(3) Bill Belichick (New England Patriots)
(4) Butler basketball (Brad Stevens)
(5) San Francisco 49ers (Jim Harbaugh), Boston Celtics (Doc Rivers)

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/05/win-alex-ferguson-matt-harvey-memphis-grizzlies/

Leaving Coach K off this list is unfathomable - anyone who believes Duke can just plug someone in and the program will roll on obviously did not follow Duke basketball from the early to mid-1970s

[flyingdutchdevil]

Dan Shanoff at USA Today discusses the Ferguson retirement and has this list of the 5 toughest coaching position to fill

This isn’t a historical list — replacing John Wooden or Bear Bryant, although those legends’ historical success still infuses their teams — but the Top 5 toughest current coaching seats to fill, in the event the coach left or retired:

(1) Alabama football (Nick Saban)
(2) Manchester United (Alex Ferguson)
(3) Bill Belichick (New England Patriots)
(4) Butler basketball (Brad Stevens)
(5) San Francisco 49ers (Jim Harbaugh), Boston Celtics (Doc Rivers)

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/05/win-alex-ferguson-matt-harvey-memphis-grizzlies/

Leaving Coach K off this list is unfathomable - anyone who believes Duke can just plug someone in and the program will roll on obviously did not follow Duke basketball from the early to mid-1970s

Hahahahaha. That's just laughable. Firstly, Nick Saban? Yes, amazingly talented and has already won two NCs with Bama. But he's only been there since 2007. Brad Stevens? Really? Again, another great coach, but Butler isn't a Tier 1 program, and, like Saban, has also only been there since 2007. My personal favorite is the only NBA coach on this list: Rivers. Nothing against Rivers, but is he really more unreplaceable than Greg Popovich?

Coach K has everything that makes a coach unplaceable: he's been there for so long, has a ridiculous legacy, constant winning, and no true successor in sight. He is not only the most unreplaceable coach in college ball, but also in probably every American sport (IMO, I still think Ferguson is more unreplaceable). What a disaster of an article

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Hahahahaha. That's just laughable. Firstly, Nick Saban? Yes, amazingly talented and has already won two NCs with Bama. But he's only been there since 2007. Brad Stevens? Really? Again, another great coach, but Butler isn't a Tier 1 program, and, like Saban, has also only been there since 2007. My personal favorite is the only NBA coach on this list: Rivers. Nothing against Rivers, but is he really more unreplaceable than Greg Popovich?

Coach K has everything that makes a coach unplaceable: he's been there for so long, has a ridiculous legacy, constant winning, and no true successor in sight. He is not only the most unreplaceable coach in college ball, but also in probably every American sport (IMO, I still think Ferguson is more unreplaceable). What a disaster of an article

I think the article thinks it more unlikely that a Coach would take over at Butler and take that school to two final games than it is for a Coach to take over at Duke and win, say, two national championships in then next ten years. I think I agree. As a for instance ... While I can imagine, say, Brad Stephens taking the Duke job and doing that, I have a harder time imagining someone who would take Butler to two finals in the next ten years.

That does not negate the thought that Coach K is the best ever and is irreplaceable.

[miramar]

Unquestionably is too strong. Mourinho has won 7 leagues in 4 different countries as well as 3 European Cups in 2 different countries...2 of which were Champions League Trophies. And he's done that in like 1/4 of the time it's taken Lord Ferg. His Madrid teams have absolutely wreaked with talent but unfortuantely appear to have fallen in the middle of the age of the Catalans and Bavarians. It's obviously impossible to categorically decide but in this poster's admitedly biased opinion, having routine changes in scenarios (not to mention languages, culture, piggy bank) and all the while achieving arguably equal measures of success in each location is the more challenging prospect. Mourinho's CV is extraordinary. Reasonable arguments could also be made for Del Bosque, Capello, Ancelotti, and even Pep...depending upon your metrics.

There is no question that Mourinho has had unprecedented success everywhere he has gone, but this (likely final) season with Real Madrid has not been his finest hour. He could still win the King's Cup, but he failed to reach the final of the European Cup for the third straight year and basically lost the League championship by Christmas. Worse yet, he has alienated most of the team and the majority of the Real Madrid fans, who have been whistling (booing) Mou the last few home games. Even if he ends up with two King's Cups, a League title, and a Supercup in three years, Real Madrid expected far more when they invested huge amounts of money in Mourinho and his players, many of whom don't seem to be paying attention to him at this point.

Of course, if he returns to Chelsea and continues to be successful in the Premier League then his three years with Real Madrid could end up being a minor disappointment in an incredibly successful year. But at this point Mourinho has become the Frank Martin of the Spanish league and Real Madrid would likely waive his ten million euro compensation clause if he asks to leave.

[JohnGalt]

There is no question that Mourinho has had unprecedented success everywhere he has gone, but this (likely final) season with Real Madrid has not been his finest hour. He could still win the King's Cup, but he failed to reach the final of the European Cup for the third straight year and basically lost the League championship by Christmas. Worse yet, he has alienated most of the team and the majority of the Real Madrid fans, who have been whistling (booing) Mou the last few home games. Even if he ends up with two King's Cups, a League title, and a Supercup in three years, Real Madrid expected far more when they invested huge amounts of money in Mourinho and his players, many of whom don't seem to be paying attention to him at this point.

Of course, if he returns to Chelsea and continues to be successful in the Premier League then his three years with Real Madrid could end up being a minor disappointment in an incredibly successful year. But at this point Mourinho has become the Frank Martin of the Spanish league and Real Madrid would likely waive his ten million euro compensation clause if he asks to leave.

I think Mou's stint at Madrid and how it has already been labelled a "failure" is much more a function of the enormous (and often outrageous) pressures placed on him by the fanbase moreso than his actually "failing." Madrid has been looking for Big Cup #10 for over 10 years now and although Mou has taken them to 3 straight semi-finals the truth is - as you have alluded to - is he has failed to win it. But is 3 straight semi-finals and a league when put up against what many have already labelled the greatest club side of all-time really a failure? And it appears more than anything Mou and Madrid have finally turned the corner on Barcelona. The problem is they keep running into zee Germans who are on the uptrend as well. Do I think he could have done more? Sure. Do I think he has alienated the lockeroom, management, and fanbase? Sure...those are some of the things the Special One does best. He's a complicated dude and it certainly appears he's ready to start his new project. I just hope to God it isn't in the EPL. We have enough sideshows as it is.

Basically my point is that if Mou had one 1 of those Big Cups...everything would be different.

[blazindw]

I think Mou's stint at Madrid and how it has already been labelled a "failure" is much more a function of the enormous (and often outrageous) pressures placed on him by the fanbase moreso than his actually "failing." Madrid has been looking for Big Cup #10 for over 10 years now and although Mou has taken them to 3 straight semi-finals the truth is - as you have alluded to - is he has failed to win it. But is 3 straight semi-finals and a league when put up against what many have already labelled the greatest club side of all-time really a failure? And it appears more than anything Mou and Madrid have finally turned the corner on Barcelona. The problem is they keep running into zee Germans who are on the uptrend as well. Do I think he could have done more? Sure. Do I think he has alienated the lockeroom, management, and fanbase? Sure...those are some of the things the Special One does best. He's a complicated dude and it certainly appears he's ready to start his new project. I just hope to God it isn't in the EPL. We have enough sideshows as it is.

Basically my point is that if Mou had one 1 of those Big Cups...everything would be different.

As a Madrid fan, I can say that Mou has been a success at Real Madrid. He's won the Copa del Rey (for the first time since 1993, beating Barca in the final) and he is in the final again this year. He won the league last year and this year the only loss to Barca was a 3-2 loss at the Nou Camp in the first leg of the Spanish Supercopa (Real would win in the second leg to claim the Supercopa on away goals). The only thing he hasn't done is bring home "La Decima," which is the ONLY goal for a lot of Madridistas. I don't see it that way, but admittedly I'm probably in the minority of most Madrid fans. It's just like if most of us were claiming our teams only are successes if they win the national championship.

[killerleft]

It might be no surprise that I would welcome Jose Mourinho back to Chelsea. He is The Special One, I've heard it said. The BPL needs him more than he needs it.