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View Full Version : Trouble brewing in Kansas?



FerryFor50
05-07-2013, 12:24 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130506/ben-mclemore-kansas.ap/?sct=hp_t2_a15&eref=sihp

sagegrouse
05-07-2013, 12:29 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130506/ben-mclemore-kansas.ap/?sct=hp_t2_a15&eref=sihp

This was the Front Page story today. The basic allegation is that star freshman Ben McLemore's AAU coach has taken money from agents to help steer McLemore in a particular direction.

This is not an NCAA violation, unless the money or free trips somehow passed to Ben or his family.

sagegrouse

MarkD83
05-07-2013, 01:34 PM
I did see the point I am about to make made by some other poster, so I apologize for stealing this thought.....

Even if McLemore or his family got money from an agent and the agent was trying to convince him to go pro...Why is Kansas in trouble?

I can see the case where an unscrupulous agent would give money to every college player he thought could go pro just to ruin their eligibility and force them to go pro. In this scenario the issue is with the agent and player not any university.

sagegrouse
05-07-2013, 02:12 PM
I did see the point I am about to make made by some other poster, so I apologize for stealing this thought.....

Even if McLemore or his family got money from an agent and the agent was trying to convince him to go pro...Why is Kansas in trouble?

I can see the case where an unscrupulous agent would give money to every college player he thought could go pro just to ruin their eligibility and force them to go pro. In this scenario the issue is with the agent and player not any university.

If that were the case, it would be a huge problem for Kansas because McLemore could be ruled ineligible and all of Kansas's wins this year could be vacated. Gifts from agents are what got UNC football in big trouble.

The fact that an agent was paying his AAU coach to help him sign McLemore looks like a dumb way to spend money but not anything that would interest the NCAA, unless some of the loot got to McLemore or his family.

sagegrouse

CDu
05-07-2013, 02:15 PM
If that were the case, it would be a huge problem for Kansas because McLemore could be ruled ineligible and all of Kansas's wins this year could be vacated. Gifts from agents are what got UNC football in big trouble.

The fact that an agent was paying his AAU coach to help him sign McLemore looks like a dumb way to spend money but not anything that would interest the NCAA, unless some of the loot got to McLemore or his family.

sagegrouse

Seems like it could also be problematic if KU was responsible for the agents spending the money to pay the AAU coach, no? If not, that should be against the rules. Of course, if there is no link between KU and the agents AND there is no link between the money and McLemore and his family, then there is no issue. But that seems somewhat improbable to me.

sagegrouse
05-07-2013, 03:03 PM
Seems like it could also be problematic if KU was responsible for the agents spending the money to pay the AAU coach, no? If not, that should be against the rules. Of course, if there is no link between KU and the agents AND there is no link between the money and McLemore and his family, then there is no issue. But that seems somewhat improbable to me.

I guess, CDu, but why would Kansas urge an agent to pay an AAU coach, whatever their motivation? I could be wrong -- heavens knows there's precedent -- but I thought this spending was this year, after McLemore was already enrolled. Re-reading the article (and trying not to move my lips), there is no discussion of timing, which would be critical. It also says that the agent Blackstock wanted the AAU Coach Darius Cobb to give the money to the family and then does not discuss whether that happened.

sagegrouse

CDu
05-07-2013, 03:07 PM
I guess, CDu, but why would Kansas urge an agent to pay an AAU coach, whatever their motivation? I could be wrong -- heavens knows there's precedent -- but I thought this spending was this year, after McLemore was already enrolled. Re-reading the article (and trying not to move my lips), there is no discussion of timing, which would be critical. It also says that the agent Blackstock wanted the AAU Coach Darius Cobb to give the money to the family and then does not discuss whether that happened.

sagegrouse

Well, why would an agent pay an AAU coach to direct a player to a particular school? What reasoning would agent care where the player played his one-two years of college?

One could easily make the argument that the school secretly paid the agent to pay the AAU coach to give to the player/family to entice the choice of the school as a VERY indirect route to getting the player (while hoping that the degrees of separation keeps them in the clear).

MCFinARL
05-07-2013, 03:19 PM
Well, why would an agent pay an AAU coach to direct a player to a particular school? What reasoning would agent care where the player played his one-two years of college?

One could easily make the argument that the school secretly paid the agent to pay the AAU coach to give to the player/family to entice the choice of the school as a VERY indirect route to getting the player (while hoping that the degrees of separation keeps them in the clear).

Sure, but, leaving aside the timing issue (which isn't clear but seems to suggest this happened after McLemore was at Kansas), why would a school use an agent for this purpose? That seems like a poor choice of intermediary because money flowing from an agent to a player's family would be suspect in any case.

Olympic Fan
05-07-2013, 03:31 PM
Occam's razor -- between competing theories, the one with the least assumptions is usually right.

In this case, I would need to see some compelling evidence to reject the simplest explanation. The agent gave the AAU coach money to try and sway one of the best NBA prospects in college basketball to sign with him. Happens all the time.

All the convoluted theories that Kansas funneled money to the agent don't make much sense.

tommy
05-07-2013, 04:17 PM
Occam's razor -- between competing theories, the one with the least assumptions is usually right.

In this case, I would need to see some compelling evidence to reject the simplest explanation. The agent gave the AAU coach money to try and sway one of the best NBA prospects in college basketball to sign with him. Happens all the time.

All the convoluted theories that Kansas funneled money to the agent don't make much sense.

That's right. And the first iteration of this story that I read when the story first broke was that the agent paid the AAU coach to convince McLemore to declare for the draft. He was either in the midst of or finished with his freshman year, and the agent, believing the AAU coach to still be influential with the kid, paid the coach to try to convince McLemore to come out. KU had no knowledge and no involvement. The transaction could still make the kid ineligible, but Kansas would be much less culpable in this scenario.

CDu
05-07-2013, 04:20 PM
That's right. And the first iteration of this story that I read when the story first broke was that the agent paid the AAU coach to convince McLemore to declare for the draft. He was either in the midst of or finished with his freshman year, and the agent, believing the AAU coach to still be influential with the kid, paid the coach to try to convince McLemore to come out. KU had no knowledge and no involvement. The transaction could still make the kid ineligible, but Kansas would be much less culpable in this scenario.

If the payment occurred after McLemore was already at KU, then I agree that this is the MUCH more likely scenario. And in that case, KU would be far less likely to be in violation.

tommy
05-07-2013, 04:53 PM
If the payment occurred after McLemore was already at KU, then I agree that this is the MUCH more likely scenario. And in that case, KU would be far less likely to be in violation.

If the payment was made while McLemore was at KU and he or his family knew about it or benefitted in some way by it, I think that would make him ineligible and KU would potentially be on the hook for having used an ineligible player. But without knowing about it, maybe not -- see Maggette, right? Although the money in that case changed hands before Corey even got to Duke. Whether that makes one situation more or less of a violation than the other, in the NCAA's eyes, who knows?

But what if the money didn't move from the agent/runner to the AAU coach (with McLemore's knowledge or at least some kind of benefit to his family) until after KU's season was concluded? Is there any way that the kid would be retroactively ineligible, with whatever penalties that attach to that? I'm trying to think of why it would or should make him retroactively ineligible under these circumstances, and I can't.

BismarckDuke
05-07-2013, 05:39 PM
It all is coming down to things the public doesn't know about yet. Timing, payments, etc. Speculation is running wild and going in every direction. As in many cases, you just need to wait for things to play out to really know. Too many people hear this or that and run with it and it gets wild, and baseless.

One thing that needs to play out is what role exactly did his cousin play in all this? I beleive it was his cousin who flew with the AAU coach to California. If that was a "benefit" paid by the agent, then the cousin is having interaction with the agent. If the cousin is in Ben's ear, then by default, Ben has had contact with an agent. That would have happened during the season. This could be the biggest issue, Ben having access to an agent via his cousin. I have heard that agents are now making plays for "friends." Lebron has friends being his agents and such that an agent may beleive if they can get to a friend they may have an in.

Ben's mother may have received benefits, attending the Texas game and sitting with, as I beleive it was, the AAU coach. Again, if the agent paid for the tickets and such, she was receiving a benefit from the agent. Even if the AAU coach paid for the tickets, since he apparently had it in with Ben, that may be ingterpretated as him being an agent, since he was influential in him going pro, aka agent.

I beleive this is what Kansas is looking into, who did what and when. Until it all comes out, we just don't know. Until we know exactly what everyones roll was, behind the scenes, it will be very difficult for anyone to know what needs to be investigate.

MarkD83
05-07-2013, 07:07 PM
Just heard an interview with the AAU coach on ESPN radio. He stated that he was paid for his expenses to visit agents to hear their "sales" pitch about what they could offer McLemore if he entered the draft. McLemore's cousin went with the coach. The AAU coach also stated that he did not have any contact with the rest of the McLemore family.

So other than the cousin possibly having an influence on the family, it does not seem as if the AAU coach would get Kansas in trouble since he was just gathering information about agents. It certainly does not sound as if McLemore was paid anything that would cause an issue.

If I take this story at face value, it seems that it would be awfully difficult for anyone entering the draft to select an agent until after they declared for the draft.

Olympic Fan
05-08-2013, 01:54 PM
Can I clear up one thing about the timing of the payments and the culpability of Kansas.

Much depends on the timing of the illegal benefits (if they are determined to be illegal). Once a prospect MATRICULATES at a university, that school is responsible for his conduct -- whether they knew about it or even should have known about it. That's why the Lance Thomas case was some worrisome -- if the NCAA had determined that he had done something wrong in December of his senior year, Duke could have been punished, even though no one has suggested that Duke knew or should have known what was going on.

On the other hand, a player who receivers benefits before matriculating is a different matter. The player can be punished (usually by suspensions), but the school is not accountable -- UNLESS THE SCHOOL OR BOOSTER IS FOUND TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ILLEGAL BENEFITS. That's what went on in the Maggette case -- he did receive benefits, but before he was enrolled at Duke (and Myron Piggie, who provided the benefits, was actually convicted in a KC court of defrauding several schools -- including Duke -- by his actions).

The NCAA reasoning is that it is a schools responsibility to instruct its athletes to know and follow the rules. But that instruction -- and responsibility -- can't occur until the player is actually enrolled.

crimsonandblue
05-08-2013, 03:14 PM
The timing is pretty straightforward. Here's a link (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2013/may/04/report-mclemores-aau-coach-took-agent-money/) to a Lawrence news story, although it really just reiterates the original USA Today piece. Payments to the AAU coach from the runner were alleged during the 2012-2013 school year. Alleged payments for a birthday party were this year as well.

The most troubling parts for McLemore's eligibility are that: this middleman, Blackstock, may have paid for $400-$500 for a birthday party for McLemore and put up several people at hotels to attend, and McLemore or his family seem to have had some relationship due to Ben leaving the guy tickets and his family sitting with the guy.

Thing is, this guy wasn't/isn't an agent, he's apparently a runner or middle man for agents. Hard to know if the McLemore family understood or was trusting the AAU coach, or what.

The AAU coach seems like a real peach. He hunted out the USA Today reporter on this and apparently hasn't spoken with McLemore recently. Speculation has been he got pushed out by the McLemore family and is somehow retaliating with these reports. That just seems really odd.

Anyway, it may be McLemore was ineligible due to some of this mess. It may be he'd be cleared if all the facts came out. It may be that the NCAA never gets around to it, because there's not all that much juice here. It may be that McLemore tells the NCAA to fly a kite and that he has no reason to cooperate. It's hard to see how KU could have much culpability (other than potentially unknowingly playing an ineligible player), except that maybe they need to be more stringent on who players leave tickets for (assuming it wasn't just for the AAU coach who brought the runner along). Although, I'm not sure a program really should be responsible for tracking and investigating who gets left tickets.

sagegrouse
05-08-2013, 04:14 PM
Anyway, it may be McLemore was ineligible due to some of this mess. It may be he'd be cleared if all the facts came out. It may be that the NCAA never gets around to it, because there's not all that much juice here. It may be that McLemore tells the NCAA to fly a kite and that he has no reason to cooperate. It's hard to see how KU could have much culpability (other than potentially unknowingly playing an ineligible player), except that maybe they need to be more stringent on who players leave tickets for (assuming it wasn't just for the AAU coach who brought the runner along). Although, I'm not sure a program really should be responsible for tracking and investigating who gets left tickets.

Crimson and Blue: I can't find a single thing here to get worked up over. It looks like nothing. It would be perfectly normal and legal for a player to leave tickets for an agent he is interviewing. It's when the prospective agent starts coughing up bucks and airline tickets and fancy hotels.

The Blackstock payment for a birthday party, given that he is not an agent, might require that the McLemores repay him, which is no big deal.

Payments by agents to a former AAU coach perceived to have influence with a Div I basketball player expecting to leave for the NBA? How could this possibly be of interest to the NCAA, unless the coach was funneling money to the family? This guy seemed to have kept it for himself.

The whole story looks like the product of a slow news week.


sagegrouse

devildeac
05-08-2013, 06:04 PM
Whew! I clicked on this thread expecting trouble here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_breweries_in_Kansas) but fortunately read all the informative posts and realized it was a basketball issue:o.

Looking like it will be a non-issue or very minor one.

crimsonandblue
05-08-2013, 10:37 PM
Whew! I clicked on this thread expecting trouble here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_breweries_in_Kansas) but fortunately read all the informative posts and realized it was a basketball issue:o.

Looking like it will be a non-issue or very minor one.

Anything happening to Free State Brewery would be real trouble.

greybeard
05-09-2013, 08:36 PM
Does it really matter which of the scenarios laid out in this thread navigate the thicket that comprises NCAA rules and which get ensnared in it, and why. The system reeks, the kids know it, and, whether they make the show or not, most end up much the worse for the talent they began with and that was developed in the current AAU system. Even the money that comes to these clubs from so-called "legitimate" sources--sponsorships and tournaments by shoe and apparel companies and the media--sullies the world that these youngsters inhabit from a very early age; the behind the scenes money makes it far worse.

I think that a system in which AAU clubs can pay the parents and guardians of youngsters from day one is preferable to the current one in which youngsters live for years amidst the hypocrisy and corruption that big money buys all around them.

And, does anyone think that an NCAA investigation is likely to get at the real truth in the vast majority of "cases" that are brought to the NCAA's attention and that those in charge determine warrant investigation? I wouldn't mind it if they did away with these rules and left the NCAA to limit itself to producing those ads with "its partners" about how many NCAA athletes do not turn pro. The money flows everywhere but to the athletes. When it reaches them, there is trouble and everybody gets all agitated. Meantime, the money continues to flow all around them. This begins at a very early age and has to inform who these youngsters become.

What a mess.

lotusland
05-09-2013, 08:48 PM
Does it really matter which of the scenarios laid out in this thread navigate the thicket that comprises NCAA rules and which get ensnared in it, and why. The system reeks, the kids know it, and, whether they make the show or not, most end up much the worse for the talent they began with and that was developed in the current AAU system. Even the money that comes to these clubs from so-called "legitimate" sources--sponsorships and tournaments by shoe and apparel companies and the media--sullies the world that these youngsters inhabit from a very early age; the behind the scenes money makes it far worse.

I think that a system in which AAU clubs can pay the parents and guardians of youngsters from day one is preferable to the current one in which youngsters live for years amidst the hypocrisy and corruption that big money buys all around them.

And, does anyone think that an NCAA investigation is likely to get at the real truth in the vast majority of "cases" that are brought to the NCAA's attention and that those in charge determine warrant investigation? I wouldn't mind it if they did away with these rules and left the NCAA to limit itself to producing those ads with "its partners" about how many NCAA athletes do not turn pro. The money flows everywhere but to the athletes. When it reaches them, there is trouble and everybody gets all agitated. Meantime, the money continues to flow all around them. This begins at a very early age and has to inform who these youngsters become.

What a mess.
I hate how much money influences college athletics but I love how almost every duke game is on tv. Is that wrong?

greybeard
05-10-2013, 11:37 AM
I hate how much money influences college athletics but I love how almost every duke game is on tv. Is that wrong?

Nope, me too. Woody Allen's character in Annie Hall:

Alvy Singer: It was great seeing Annie again and I realized what a terrific person she was and how much fun it was just knowing her and I thought of that old joke, you know, the, this, this guy goes to a psychiatrist and says, 'Doc, uh, my brother's crazy, he thinks he's a chicken,' and uh, the doctor says, 'well why don't you turn him in?' And the guy says, 'I would, but I need the eggs.' Well, I guess that's pretty much now how I feel about relationships. You know, they're totally irrational and crazy and absurd and, but uh, I guess we keep going through it...because...most of us need the eggs.

Pay 'em, is all, from the time the big time AAU clubs get their teeth in.