PDA

View Full Version : Welcome to Duke Grayson Allen!!!!



Lord Ash
04-24-2013, 12:15 PM
DukeForum ‏@DukeForum 36m
The Duke staff has been informed that combo guard Grayson Allen is committed to attending Duke University.


Assume this is enough? If not, please lock up until it is confirmed by another source...

Still, good stuff!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=San3tDWKLmM

CameronBlue
04-24-2013, 12:45 PM
DukeForum ‏@DukeForum 36m
The Duke staff has been informed that combo guard Grayson Allen is committed to attending Duke University.


Assume this is enough? If not, please lock up until it is confirmed by another source...

Still, good stuff!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=San3tDWKLmM

Wait...no 20 page "vigil" thread? No Skype announcement? No mindless speculation quoting "sources close to the family?" Better sell the Verizon stock because bandwidth demand projections across Duke fandom just took a nosedive. Incredible if true.

Ichabod Drain
04-24-2013, 12:47 PM
DukeForum ‏@DukeForum 36m
The Duke staff has been informed that combo guard Grayson Allen is committed to attending Duke University.


Assume this is enough? If not, please lock up until it is confirmed by another source...

Still, good stuff!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=San3tDWKLmM

All reports i've looked at say he just named Duke as the leader in his recruitment. Still looking for a confirmation.

Lord Ash
04-24-2013, 12:48 PM
All reports i've looked at say he just named Duke as the leader in his recruitment. Still looking for a confirmation.

Looking as well... haven't seen a confirmation elsewhere.

dukedoc
04-24-2013, 01:10 PM
Duke Forum also tweeted

DukeForum‏@DukeForum
Grayson Allen is not not committed to attend Duke University.

and

DukeForum‏@DukeForum
This from Duke-Forum's handy-dandy multi-purpose Duke source, who more or less keeps us from being a bitter collection of snark-merchants

Seems like a humorous and entertaining news-ish source - I'm waiting for Watzone or another familiar face to acknowledge the veracity of this report. The stars do seem aligned on this one based on what everyone is reporting.

Snark-merchant is a term that deserves to be used more frequently.

CDu
04-24-2013, 01:12 PM
Duke Forum also tweeted

DukeForum‏@DukeForum
Grayson Allen is not not committed to attend Duke University.

and

DukeForum‏@DukeForum
This from Duke-Forum's handy-dandy multi-purpose Duke source, who more or less keeps us from being a bitter collection of snark-merchants

Seems like a humorous and entertaining news-ish source - I'm waiting for Watzone or another familiar face to acknowledge the veracity of this report. The stars do seem aligned on this one based on what everyone is reporting.

Snark-merchant is a term that deserves to be used more frequently.

Ah... twitter. Where you can post something and then post something the exact opposite shortly after, with no repercussions!

CameronBlue
04-24-2013, 01:16 PM
Snark-merchant is a term that deserves to be used more frequently.

A good name for a rock band as Dave Barry might opine. Actually Dave might perfer Snot Merchants seeing as how he was a founding member of the Phlegmtones, a good college band.

dukedoc
04-24-2013, 01:19 PM
Ah... twitter. Where you can post something and then post something the exact opposite shortly after, with no repercussions!

Or, the entire internet for that matter. Anyone can be a "real" blogger with just a computer, source of electricity, and a 56K modem. Name yourself "Duke Blog" or "Duke Basketball Central" or something catchy and people will follow and assume competence. Very dangerous.

(nb I know nothing about Duke Forum, may be a perfectly fine resource)

pfrduke
04-24-2013, 01:26 PM
Thread title changed pending any actual confirmation.

Lord Ash
04-24-2013, 01:43 PM
Thread title changed pending any actual confirmation.

Roger, hope that it can be changed soon!:)

CDu
04-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Thread title changed pending any actual confirmation.

And so the vigil begins...

mgtr
04-24-2013, 01:49 PM
And so the vigil begins...

I always finish my vigils at mealtime. :D

rsvman
04-24-2013, 02:12 PM
Ah... twitter. Where you can post something and then post something the exact opposite shortly after, with no repercussions!

Who need Twitter? We already have DBR for that!

Ichabod Drain
04-24-2013, 04:36 PM
From Grayson Allen's twitter:

@GraysonJAllen
Committed!!!

then he link's a picture of the duke basketball logo.

https://twitter.com/GraysonJAllen

dukedoc
04-24-2013, 04:36 PM
Evan Daniels says Grayson has committed to the good guys.

Welcome to Duke!

rsvman
04-24-2013, 04:37 PM
From Grayson Allen's twitter:

@GraysonJAllen
Committed!!!

then he link's a picture of the duke basketball logo.

Excellent!

Ichabod Drain
04-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Also confirmed by Dave Telep now.

Welcome Grayson, Let's go Duke!!!

BD80
04-24-2013, 04:55 PM
Excellent!

I hope this removes any doubt about Grayson's decision making ability or quickness! I would suggest this "announcement" also demonstrates his ability to blow by more highly rated wing recruits and a tenacity to gain a contended possession.

Welcome to Duke!

sagegrouse
04-24-2013, 05:00 PM
I was having some confusion over the name Grayson Allen, and then I remembered: Outspoken and controversial Congressman Alan Grayson is also from Florida.

sagegrouse

BigWayne
04-24-2013, 05:18 PM
I was having some confusion over the name Grayson Allen, and then I remembered: Outspoken and controversial Congressman Alan Grayson is also from Florida.

sagegrouse

Well I think they are even less related than Marco and Ricky Rubio are, so let's hope it stays that way.

wilko
04-24-2013, 05:21 PM
I like this guy. He knows what he wants and just grabs it.
No messing around, just pulls the trigger with no buildup or fanfare..

That was so fast Roy's head must be spinning that he didn't have a chance to poach him after Duke scouted him...

Greg_Newton
04-24-2013, 05:31 PM
"Grayson Allison"? C'mon now, guys... :rolleyes:

(Re: that tweet earlier, I don't think it was contradicting itself with the second tweet, just a snarkish use of a double negative.)

MCFinARL
04-24-2013, 05:34 PM
"Grayson Allison"? C'mon now, guys... :rolleyes:

(Re: that tweet earlier, I don't think it was contradicting itself with the second tweet, just a snarkish use of a double negative.)

Yes, but--the first tweet posted by dukedoc contradicted the tweet from the same source earlier posted by Lord Ash.

mr. synellinden
04-24-2013, 05:36 PM
The thing I liked best about that video is his ability to use his left hand to finish at the rim.

How long is it going to take for the comparisons to JJ?

CLW
04-24-2013, 05:42 PM
Allen seems like a really good fit and apparently Duke was his dream school so it will be fun watching him develop over the course of his Duke career.

Duvall
04-24-2013, 05:43 PM
The thing I liked best about that video is his ability to use his left hand to finish at the rim.

How long is it going to take for the comparisons to JJ?

Long past done. Allen doesn't play much like Redick, though.

Lord Ash
04-24-2013, 06:01 PM
Awesome! Very athletic and a superb shooter.

So that is a 2014 SG... next up, a C and PG?

And can someone change the title to Welcome to Duke?:)

Man... another future Dukie! It is a bit crazy when you realize that someone new has joined the family, probably for years!

ncexnyc
04-24-2013, 06:14 PM
So this explains why he missed the final game of the tournament.:D

All kidding aside, I love it when these young men quickly announce without the need for putting on a show.

roywhite
04-24-2013, 06:27 PM
"Grayson Allison"? C'mon now, guys... :rolleyes:

(Re: that tweet earlier, I don't think it was contradicting itself with the second tweet, just a snarkish use of a double negative.)

At first glance of the DBR front page, I thought perhaps we had a WBB commit today, too. Oops.

NSDukeFan
04-24-2013, 06:37 PM
Great to see a start to the 2014 class. I look forward to watching Grayson for years.

El_Diablo
04-24-2013, 06:44 PM
Yes, but--the first tweet posted by dukedoc contradicted the tweet from the same source earlier posted by Lord Ash.

The tweet posted by dukedoc used a double negative. Since "not not committed" = committed, the two tweets were consistent.

-bdbd
04-24-2013, 06:47 PM
Long past done. Allen doesn't play much like Redick, though.


Naw. By then the great shooting comparisons will be made relative to Matt Jones!

Funny comment by Sage. The name that always made be cringe was the politician from LA by the name of "Duke," who was a former KKK nut. Geez!

Welcome to Duke Grayson!!!!!

Scout lists him as having 'interest' from NC - I had the same thought as Ash -- kid moved too quick for even ole Roy to try to snake in, utilizing again the "Duke Scouting Service" to find his recruiting targets....

But Scout does show other offers from FL, FSU, Ga Tech, NCSU, Texas, and even a couple of Big Ten schools. Great get Duke. Terrific start to what appears could be an awesome/historic recruiting class. As was said, next stop, a Center and a PG ...possibly both from the Midwest??? ;-)

Grayson Allen (#6 SG, #36 overall)
Ht: 6-3 Wt: 180 (Though I noticed the most recent article lists him at 6'4")
Position: SG
Year: Class of 2014
AAU Team: Douglas Brothers Elite
High School: Providence Christian School
(Riverview, FL -- Jax)

Starter
04-24-2013, 08:26 PM
Asking guys like Jim Sumner and other longtime recruiting followers: Has Duke ever had a guy accept an offer THIS fast? They offered what, two days prior? I mean, you want what you want, and I respect that. It just was striking to me to see someone jump all over an offer like that. I mean, heaven forbid Tyus Jones took two days to accept a Duke offer? My guess from here would be that he wanted to lock up his spot before Duke got involved with peers at his position. And if so, who can blame him? In any event, I know a guy in Florida who has seen him play a few times and really likes him, so I'm hoping he's on the money.

**Sorry, I'm hearing it was about a week. Still curious about past fast acceptances.

Duvall
04-24-2013, 08:31 PM
Asking guys like Jim Sumner and other longtime recruiting followers: Has Duke ever had a guy accept an offer THIS fast? They offered what, two days prior? I mean, you want what you want, and I respect that. It just was striking to me to see someone jump all over an offer like that. I mean, heaven forbid Tyus Jones took two days to accept a Duke offer? My guess from here would be that he wanted to lock up his spot before Duke got involved with peers at his position. And if so, who can blame him? In any event, I know a guy in Florida who has seen him play a few times and really likes him, so I'm hoping he's on the money.

Duke was already involved with at least one peer at his position. More likely that he just knew that Duke was where he wanted to go.

magjayran
04-24-2013, 08:31 PM
First, I love love LOVE this pick up and I'm excited to see more of this kid beyond the highlight clips.

Second, I hate the JJ comparison. HATE. Sure he's white and can shoot but the highlights look a lot more like Demarcus Nelson (albeit not as strong) or Sheed.

But really he looks like a dynamic offensive player with good handles, a good jumper, and springs for legs. Lets just let Grayson be Grayson.

roywhite
04-24-2013, 08:41 PM
First, I love love LOVE this pick up and I'm excited to see more of this kid beyond the highlight clips.

Second, I hate the JJ comparison. HATE. Sure he's white and can shoot but the highlights look a lot more like Demarcus Nelson (albeit not as strong) or Sheed.

But really he looks like a dynamic offensive player with good handles, a good jumper, and springs for legs. Lets just let Grayson be Grayson.

Yeah, my first thought of a Duke comparison was to Austin Rivers; roughly the same size, from Florida, both like to drive, have 3-point range, and a nice step-back move. But no big deal; let Grayson develop his own game and reputation.

Congrats to Grayson and good news for Duke. Wouldn't be surprised to see our 2014 (and perhaps a beginning of 2015) class fall into place by summer.

OldPhiKap
04-24-2013, 08:49 PM
Welcome Grayson!

sagegrouse
04-24-2013, 09:28 PM
Naw. By then the great shooting comparisons will be made relative to Matt Jones!

Funny comment by Sage. The name that always made be cringe was the politician from LA by the name of "Duke," who was a former KKK nut. Geez!

Welcome to Duke Grayson!!!!!



That would have been David Duke, a Neo-Nazi who tried to look respectable, helped by considerable plastic surgery. He ran for governor in 1991 and made the runoff, placing ahead of the incumbent. In the runoff Duke was opposed by a three-term former Governor, the gregarious but shady Edwin Edwards. Bumper stickers at the time read, "Vote for the Crook -- It's Important!" Edwards won by a landslide.

sagegrouse

miramar
04-24-2013, 10:09 PM
Duke was already involved with at least one peer at his position. More likely that he just knew that Duke was where he wanted to go.

Wasn't Ryan another quick decision? IIRC it was a late but very short courtship.

MCFinARL
04-24-2013, 11:39 PM
The tweet posted by dukedoc used a double negative. Since "not not committed" = committed, the two tweets were consistent.

Sorry--apparently I need new bifocals. Or maybe a new brain, though that might be harder to come by.

johnb
04-25-2013, 12:11 AM
...a lot more like Demarcus Nelson (albeit not as strong) ...

anyone have thoughts as to our best all-time athlete? obviously it can be defined multiple ways. Johnny Dawkins was ridiculously fit and springy for example, but DeMarcus always seemed outrageously magget

te-like...

Greg_Newton
04-25-2013, 01:38 AM
I've heard Daniel Ewing thrown around as a comparison, which would be great. He doesn't seem as quick, though.

I know this is an annoying thing to say, but I kind of wonder if he'll grow any more. Look at his feet - they're freaking enormous for his size. So much so that it looks like they affect his quickness a little bit; I wouldn't mind seeing him grow into them another couple inches!

UrinalCake
04-25-2013, 08:52 AM
Is there any doubt that Duke is the school of choice for shooters? For all the talk we hear of Duke's inability to develop post guys, every other school in the country would kill for our never-ending supply of guys who can light it up from downtown.

DeBlueDevil
04-25-2013, 09:03 AM
Awesome! Very athletic and a superb shooter.

So that is a 2014 SG... next up, a C and PG?

And can someone change the title to Welcome to Duke?:)

Man... another future Dukie! It is a bit crazy when you realize that someone new has joined the family, probably for years!

I was just thinking to myself, that maybe this kid fits the mold of a PG in the future for Duke. I like his ball handling in the video and I feel with his height in the 6'3" range that I'd be nice to have a sizeable PG. Perhaps a backup for Tyus if he chooses Duke and then a guy to slide into the starting pg role once Tyus goes pro? Especially with the amount of wing talent currently committed and I am sure more future wing commits to come. Any thoughts anyone?

Mike Corey
04-25-2013, 09:03 AM
anyone have thoughts as to our best all-time athlete? obviously it can be defined multiple ways.

Extremely hard to answer because, as you noted, there are different ways to measure athleticism.

If we're talking agility, quickness, speed, strength, explosiveness, endurance, etc., then I suppose I'd make the case for Jason Williams and Johnny Dawkins.

sagegrouse
04-25-2013, 09:38 AM
Extremely hard to answer because, as you noted, there are different ways to measure athleticism.

If we're talking agility, quickness, speed, strength, explosiveness, endurance, etc., then I suppose I'd make the case for Jason Williams and Johnny Dawkins.

Grant Hill

ChillinDuke
04-25-2013, 09:45 AM
Welcome to Duke, Grayson!

My, that was fast! And I appreciate that.

- Chillin

COYS
04-25-2013, 10:57 AM
Grant Hill

J-Will and Corey have gotta be up there, too.

To keep this relevant, welcome, Grayson! Can't wait to see you suit up!

flyingdutchdevil
04-25-2013, 11:41 AM
J-Will and Corey have gotta be up there, too.

To keep this relevant, welcome, Grayson! Can't wait to see you suit up!

And G. Henderson

jimsumner
04-25-2013, 12:06 PM
And G. Henderson

If only Dave Sime had played hoops. Or only if Curtis Beach were to join the team.

But Duke basketball does boast an eventual NFL MVP and an eventual MLB MVP. How many basketball programs can say that?

Mike Corey
04-25-2013, 12:32 PM
If only Dave Sime had played hoops. Or only if Curtis Beach were to join the team.

But Duke basketball does boast an eventual NFL MVP and an eventual MLB MVP. How many basketball programs can say that?

And an MLS All-Star (Jay Heaps).

Agreed with Sage on Grant Hill.

Would be curious to hear Coach K break down his best "athletes", though I suspect Jim has heard him discuss that in the past?

Skitzle
04-25-2013, 12:44 PM
If only Dave Sime had played hoops. Or only if Curtis Beach were to join the team.

But Duke basketball does boast an eventual NFL MVP and an eventual MLB MVP. How many basketball programs can say that?


Wait what? Duke Basketball - NFL... Paulus??

MLB??

I missed something..

jimsumner
04-25-2013, 12:49 PM
Wait what? Duke Basketball - NFL... Paulus??

MLB??

I missed something..

Ace Parker played basketball at Duke. He went on to become an NFL MVP.

Dick Groat played basketball at Duke. He went on to become a major league MVP.

Also, Duke hoopster Bill Werber went on to become a major leaguer of some distinction.

BD80
04-25-2013, 12:52 PM
... But Duke basketball does boast an eventual NFL MVP and an eventual MLB MVP. How many basketball programs can say that?


And eventual POTUS ...

Although the Bud Light commercial may cost him a few votes ...

Mal
04-25-2013, 01:04 PM
If only Dave Sime had played hoops. Or only if Curtis Beach were to join the team.

But Duke basketball does boast an eventual NFL MVP and an eventual MLB MVP. How many basketball programs can say that?

I'm guessing very few universities could claim that, much less basketball programs.

Wow, Ace Parker. That's some new knowledge. The only name that came to mind for me as a possibility was Jurgenson, but while he was a 5 or 6 time All-Pro and a Hall of Famer, he never won an MVP. Don't think he actually played on the basketball team, either, though I'm sure he would have been a star.

Don't forget about our former player now former Special Assistant to the President of the United States, too! Not many programs can claim one of those.

UrinalCake
04-25-2013, 01:06 PM
Getting back on topic, am I to infer from recent conversation that Allen's athleticism is at an elite level, comparable to some of these other guys? From the one highlight video I watched he looked athletic but not really in that same class.

jimsumner
04-25-2013, 01:56 PM
I'm guessing very few universities could claim that, much less basketball programs.

Wow, Ace Parker. That's some new knowledge. The only name that came to mind for me as a possibility was Jurgenson, but while he was a 5 or 6 time All-Pro and a Hall of Famer, he never won an MVP. Don't think he actually played on the basketball team, either, though I'm sure he would have been a star.

Don't forget about our former player now former Special Assistant to the President of the United States, too! Not many programs can claim one of those.

It's easy to recall Jurgensen as a pot-bellied caricature.

But in his younger days, he was quite the athlete.

He was an outstanding youth tennis player. State class, maybe national class.

He was a standout basketball player at New Hanover High, good enough to play in the North Carolina East-West High School All-Star game. Jack Murdock played against Jurgensen in high school and tells me that he has no doubt Jurgensen could have started in the ACC in that sport.

He was a standout catcher, likely good enough to have played professionally had he chosen that path. Imagine trying to run on that arm!!

Jurgensen did not play basketball at Duke but did give baseball a shot, before deciding to concentrate on football.

Good call. Ironically, Jurgensen was better known as defensive back at Duke. He obviously had a great arm but Bill Murray wasn't a big fan of throwing the ball in those days. But Duke assistant Ace Parker--there's that name again--had lots of NFL contacts and made sure Jurgensen didn't slip between the cracks.

As for Allen, people who have seen him play compare him to Rex Chapman and Bob Sura. Maybe not an elite run-jump athlete but close enough see if from there. And he has high-level ball skills. Strength seems to be the biggest issue. Weight room meet Mr. Allen.

magjayran
04-25-2013, 02:16 PM
Getting back on topic, am I to infer from recent conversation that Allen's athleticism is at an elite level, comparable to some of these other guys? From the one highlight video I watched he looked athletic but not really in that same class.

I'm not saying he's Gerald Henderson but he's 6'3"-6'4" and he can do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUMLQaTSuME

Henderson
04-25-2013, 05:25 PM
Highlight tapes can be misleading, but they also can show what a guy is capable of in his good moments and certain fundamental things about a guy's game. In the videos of Grayson Allen highlighting his shooting ability, look at how quick his release is. It's good for another inch or two in height.

roywhite
04-29-2013, 10:17 AM
Grayson-Allen-wins-Slam-Dunk-Contest (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/2123392960001/1/Grayson-Allen-wins-Slam-Dunk-Contest)

Some pretty impressive dunks.

CDu
04-29-2013, 10:24 AM
In terms of recent athletes (i.e., Coach K era), I'd put JWill, Maggette, and (pre-injury) DeMarcus Nelson in the discussion for sure. Those three had the best speed/strength/quickness/explosiveness combination of anyone I can remember.

There have been plenty of terrific athletes at Duke though, so it's a tough question to answer.

As for Allen, he certainly does not appear to be short on athleticism.

roywhite
04-29-2013, 10:49 AM
In terms of recent athletes (i.e., Coach K era), I'd put JWill, Maggette, and (pre-injury) DeMarcus Nelson in the discussion for sure. Those three had the best speed/strength/quickness/explosiveness combination of anyone I can remember.

There have been plenty of terrific athletes at Duke though, so it's a tough question to answer.

As for Allen, he certainly does not appear to be short on athleticism.

Don't disagree with those you indicate....would definitely add Gerald Henderson.

For big guys, Miles is right up there, and Mason not far behind.

UrinalCake
04-29-2013, 12:18 PM
Don't forget Dahntay Jones. He reminds me a lot of Henderson. Probably a little stronger and not quite as quick, but crazy athletic too. Also, he can do lots of push-ups 8-)

CDu
04-29-2013, 12:20 PM
Don't disagree with those you indicate....would definitely add Gerald Henderson.

For big guys, Miles is right up there, and Mason not far behind.

I thought about Henderson (he certainly qualifies on explosiveness and strength), but he missed my cut based on quickness/speed.

roywhite
04-29-2013, 12:24 PM
I thought about Henderson (he certainly qualifies on explosiveness and strength), but he missed my cut based on quickness/speed.

yeah, maybe so, but we oughta give some extra points for being so good at golf. :)

doesn't seem fair that he should have that athletic gift, too.

CDu
04-29-2013, 12:26 PM
yeah, maybe so, but we oughta give some extra points for being so good at golf. :)

doesn't seem fair that he should have that athletic gift, too.

Agreed. He could have at least left the golf to the rest of us mere mortals.

brevity
04-29-2013, 03:58 PM
anyone have thoughts as to our best all-time athlete? obviously it can be defined multiple ways. Johnny Dawkins was ridiculously fit and springy for example, but DeMarcus always seemed outrageously maggette-like...

What a terrific idea for an offseason thread. But maybe a separate thread? Judging from the fast responses, so many people are ready to talk about this.

Sure is surprising to see Grayson Allen's welcome thread disappear so quickly. Can any of the moderators siphon off the irrelevant comments to somewhere new? Or old (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?20416)?

duke09hms
04-29-2013, 04:12 PM
Grayson-Allen-wins-Slam-Dunk-Contest (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/2123392960001/1/Grayson-Allen-wins-Slam-Dunk-Contest)

Some pretty impressive dunks.

Gotta say, I'm happy he doesn't look like a skinny finesse shooter. Looks at least somewhat jacked and can clearly get up. Hope that carries over into speed and defensive agility. Could be a big get.

moonpie23
04-29-2013, 09:35 PM
does he remind anyone else of Olyk?

CDu
04-29-2013, 10:26 PM
does he remind anyone else of Olyk?

In that he is white with short dark hair, is muscular, can jump, and committed to Duke? Yes. In any other basketball-related way? Not so much.

tommy
04-29-2013, 10:54 PM
He's not muscular. Reminds more of Marty Pocius as I described in an earlier post.

Ichabod Drain
04-30-2013, 09:36 AM
In that he is white with short dark hair, is muscular, can jump, and committed to Duke? Yes. In any other basketball-related way? Not so much.


He's not muscular. Reminds more of Marty Pocius as I described in an earlier post.

Nothing like judging a 16/17(?) year old kids body...

IMO I would certainly say he's not not muscular.

noworries
04-30-2013, 09:47 AM
Don't forget Dahntay Jones. He reminds me a lot of Henderson. Probably a little stronger and not quite as quick, but crazy athletic too. Also, he can do lots of push-ups 8-)

I walk through University Hall every day and think about that dunk quite often :cool:

Also, I remember seeing DeMarcus at Duke bball camp about 11-12 years ago, and remember thinking how physically mature he looked as a junior in high school...and it wasn't bad that he got a golf cart to take his stuff everywhere...

CDu
04-30-2013, 09:59 AM
He's not muscular. Reminds more of Marty Pocius as I described in an earlier post.


Nothing like judging a 16/17(?) year old kids body...

IMO I would certainly say he's not not muscular.

Fair enough. So he's even less like Czyz.

Personally, he reminds me a bit of Bobby Sura. Pocius isn't a bad physical comp either.

dukedoc
05-04-2013, 07:10 PM
Very nice article by Laura Keeley on Grayson's commitment LINK (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/05/03/2868420/basketball-recruit-grayson-allen.html)

Krzyzewski told Allen about the brotherhood between the current players and how they were similar to the hard-working Allen. Martin and his wife were in the room with Allen and his family. Martin was impressed with the presentation. He said his wife got goose bumps during the pitch.

“I’ve coached for 20 years, and there are some great coaches out there, and I don’t know if I’ve ever had that feeling,” Martin said.

jv001
05-06-2013, 07:48 AM
Very nice article by Laura Keeley on Grayson's commitment LINK (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/05/03/2868420/basketball-recruit-grayson-allen.html)

Krzyzewski told Allen about the brotherhood between the current players and how they were similar to the hard-working Allen. Martin and his wife were in the room with Allen and his family. Martin was impressed with the presentation. He said his wife got goose bumps during the pitch.
“I’ve coached for 20 years, and there are some great coaches out there, and I don’t know if I’ve ever had that feeling,” Martin said.

Thanks for the link. I got Duke goose bumps while reading your post. Seems like a Duke kid that works his butt off and wants to improve. GoDuke!

killerleft
05-06-2013, 10:48 AM
Gotta say, I'm happy he doesn't look like a skinny finesse shooter. Looks at least somewhat jacked and can clearly get up. Hope that carries over into speed and defensive agility. Could be a big get.

Ditto that. I'd sure hate to get another Jon Scheyer:). Just kidding, but you just never know.

OnToTheNextOne
05-12-2013, 12:13 AM
Mods, feel free to move this to the Grayson Allen thread. I failed to realize that would be a better spot for this until after I had posted it.

I think everyone will be pleased hear Grayson Allen's leg injury doesn't seem to be hindering him this weekend EYBL (or at least his game wouldn't seem to say so).

For the record, it seems he is not playing with the Southern Stampede, but instead is playing with Each One Teach One (E1T1). The same AAU team that featured Austin Rivers a few years ago and now features future Tarheel Joel Berry.

In game one, Grayson finished with 30 pts, 3 rebs, and 2 assists in just 18 minutes of action, in a very efficient 10-15 shooting.

Boxscore: http://www.nikeeyb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/TX130101.pdf

In game 2: Grayson went for 17 its, 4 rebs, and 4 assist in 21 minutes. He was again efficient, shooting 6-8 from the field. This was against Tyus Jones' Howard Pulley squad.
Boxscore: http://www.d1circuit.com/game/show/5058989?subseason=107479

devildeac
05-12-2013, 02:14 PM
Mods, feel free to move this to the Grayson Allen thread. I failed to realize that would be a better spot for this until after I had posted it.

I think everyone will be pleased hear Grayson Allen's leg injury doesn't seem to be hindering him this weekend EYBL (or at least his game wouldn't seem to say so).

For the record, it seems he is not playing with the Southern Stampede, but instead is playing with Each One Teach One (E1T1). The same AAU team that featured Austin Rivers a few years ago and now features future Tarheel Joel Berry.

In game one, Grayson finished with 30 pts, 3 rebs, and 2 assists in just 18 minutes of action, in a very efficient 10-15 shooting.

Boxscore: http://www.nikeeyb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/TX130101.pdf

In game 2: Grayson went for 17 its, 4 rebs, and 4 assist in 21 minutes. He was again efficient, shooting 6-8 from the field. This was against Tyus Jones' Howard Pulley squad.
Boxscore: http://www.d1circuit.com/game/show/5058989?subseason=107479

Uh oh, Bob Green may have stayed home doing "something productive" thinking Grayson was not playing in this event;):o.

westwall
05-12-2013, 04:20 PM
In game 2: Grayson went for 17 its, 4 rebs, and 4 assist in 21 minutes. He was again efficient, shooting 6-8 from the field. This was against Tyus Jones' Howard Pulley squad.
Boxscore: http://www.d1circuit.com/game/show/5058989?subseason=107479

Well, the entire team was equally efficient, shooting 74% (40/54) from the field. Was defense not permitted??

tommy
05-13-2013, 02:48 AM
Grayson's numbers were certainly very good, although it seems like everybody shot a very high % this weekend in Dallas. Doesn't seem like anybody played any D. In any event though, obviously Grayson played a lot better than he did a few weeks ago in LA. At least offensively, anyway. Something strange had to be gong on in LA, not just the knee. That was his first tournament with the Southern Stampede, he looked very unhappy all weekend, he left the weekend early, and never played with them again, switching over to E1T1 for Dallas.

As impressive as his numbers from Dallas look, to me the more important question is: how did he look defensively?

Des Esseintes
05-13-2013, 02:51 AM
Grayson's numbers were certainly very good, although it seems like everybody shot a very high % this weekend in Dallas. Doesn't seem like anybody played any D. In any event though, obviously Grayson played a lot better than he did a few weeks ago in LA. At least offensively, anyway. Something strange had to be gong on in LA, not just the knee. That was his first tournament with the Southern Stampede, he looked very unhappy all weekend, he left the weekend early, and never played with them again, switching over to E1T1 for Dallas.

As impressive as his numbers from Dallas look, to me the more important question is: how did he look defensively?

Probably good enough, what with the Duke scholarship offer and all.

tommy
05-13-2013, 01:44 PM
Probably good enough, what with the Duke scholarship offer and all.

Your comment does not make much sense. Having a Duke scholarship offer does not mean a kid is a good defensive player at all, otherwise everyone at Duke by definition would be good defensively, which we know is far from being the case. Nor does having a Duke scholarship offer mean that he looked good defensively this weekend, which is what my comment was directed at. In his last AAU weekend, Allen's defensive play was very poor, whether it be due to injury or some other off-the-court issue, or both, it's hard to know exactly. That's why I was interested in finding out if that play a few weeks ago was anomalous or if he struggled defensively again in Dallas. Simply having a Duke scholarship offer does not provide answers to those questions.

Duvall
05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
Grayson's numbers were certainly very good, although it seems like everybody shot a very high % this weekend in Dallas. Doesn't seem like anybody played any D.

In four games this past weekend the teams Allen's squad faced shot 39.6%, 42.1%, 41.9% and 37.7% from the field. So it seems like *someone* was playing some defense.

Des Esseintes
05-13-2013, 02:48 PM
Your comment does not make much sense. Having a Duke scholarship offer does not mean a kid is a good defensive player at all, otherwise everyone at Duke by definition would be good defensively, which we know is far from being the case. Nor does having a Duke scholarship offer mean that he looked good defensively this weekend, which is what my comment was directed at. In his last AAU weekend, Allen's defensive play was very poor, whether it be due to injury or some other off-the-court issue, or both, it's hard to know exactly. That's why I was interested in finding out if that play a few weeks ago was anomalous or if he struggled defensively again in Dallas. Simply having a Duke scholarship offer does not provide answers to those questions.

Tommy, you're a guy who clearly knows his basketball, and I have huge respect for you as a poster. But nobody else on this board watched Grayson Allen have his lone bad AAU performance. For the rest of us, Occam's Razor applies: he got a Duke scholly (from coaches who have watched him play a lot); he's highly rated (by analysts who have watched him play a lot); and what video we have suggests a dude with no trouble running and jumping. I'm not even saying all of them are right, and your impressions were wrong. I can completely understand why you are interested to see if his defense was there this past weekend. You saw a disturbing performance, and it might have been telling. Just please understand in return that the rest of us didn't, and the preponderance of evidence suggests that it was pretty obviously an anomaly.

UrinalCake
05-13-2013, 03:27 PM
Well there have been plenty of examples of guys who came to Duke and couldn't cut it defensively. I won't name any names, but I think it's a valid question to ask if Allen looked good defensively.

yancem
05-13-2013, 04:26 PM
Tommy, you're a guy who clearly knows his basketball, and I have huge respect for you as a poster. But nobody else on this board watched Grayson Allen have his lone bad AAU performance. For the rest of us, Occam's Razor applies: he got a Duke scholly (from coaches who have watched him play a lot); he's highly rated (by analysts who have watched him play a lot); and what video we have suggests a dude with no trouble running and jumping. I'm not even saying all of them are right, and your impressions were wrong. I can completely understand why you are interested to see if his defense was there this past weekend. You saw a disturbing performance, and it might have been telling. Just please understand in return that the rest of us didn't, and the preponderance of evidence suggests that it was pretty obviously an anomaly.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this post at all. Pretty much everyone on this board asks questions about the strengths and weaknesses of the various players that Duke recruits. Tommy (based on what he has actually seen in person) has concerns about Allen's defense and was curious if the weaknesses he witnessed were an anomaly or a true concern. As others have noted (as well as Tommy himself) not all of Duke's players, past or present, are strong defensively, so it would seem like a legitimate question/concern. What preponderance of evidence do you have that Allen is good defensively? I haven't seen any reports that discuss this aspect of his game.

Ichabod Drain
05-13-2013, 04:44 PM
I'm sorry but I don't understand this post at all. Pretty much everyone on this board asks questions about the strengths and weaknesses of the various players that Duke recruits. Tommy (based on what he has actually seen in person) has concerns about Allen's defense and was curious if the weaknesses he witnessed were an anomaly or a true concern. As others have noted (as well as Tommy himself) not all of Duke's players, past or present, are strong defensively, so it would seem like a legitimate question/concern. What preponderance of evidence do you have that Allen is good defensively? I haven't seen any reports that discuss this aspect of his game.

I believe the majority of this post is in regards to another thread in which Tommy had seen Allen play two games and called his overall performance (not just on defense) "not impressive" and also stated "I don't think that we can win with him". These were both games in which it's been said that Allen was injured.

tommy
05-13-2013, 07:37 PM
Guys, guys. This should not be about me at all. Des Esseintes, you're too kind first of all. There are lots of guys on here who know a lot more basketball than I do. I fully acknowledge that I only saw Allen play two games a few weeks ago. They were not good performances, and many others who were there agreed. But nobody at that time knew that Allen may have had a bad knee. It is very possible, and I think I've acknowledged this, that my evaluation of Allen was wrong, either because he was injured, there was something else going on with him (which I suspect was the case -- and which is why he switched AAU teams after just one weekend with the Stampede) or else I was just wrong about him and it was caused by him just having an off weekend.

But thanks to the other guys too who understand the concern I have, based only on what I saw those couple of days, as well as the fact that I've never seen any scouting report on his defense, that his defense is something to be mindful of. This is also colored I'm sure by the problems some of our perimeter guys have had in doing things like stopping dribble penetration over the last couple of years, and all of us wanting to put an end to that. So maybe it's just oversensitivity to the issue, but it's a key one for our defense, and I would love to see Grayson excel in that area. Being a good offensive player and/or being a good athlete generally does not confer defensive skills or abilities on a player. In terms of Grayson's ability to move his feet, stop penetration and be disruptive on the perimeter, I just haven't seen him do so and haven't heard of him doing so, and was hoping that this weekend, someone else did. That's all.

UrinalCake
05-14-2013, 09:56 AM
In four games this past weekend the teams Allen's squad faced shot 39.6%, 42.1%, 41.9% and 37.7% from the field. So it seems like *someone* was playing some defense.

Yeah, from the numbers I've seen from this event, it looked like keeping your man under 75% would be considered lockdown defense 8-)

roywhite
05-17-2013, 07:00 AM
Duke basketball commit Grayson Allen's competitive drive (http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/05/16/duke-basketball-commit-grayson-allens-competitive-drive)

Nice feature on Allen from the Chronicle.


“Having that [meeting] solidified that Coach K is a great guy, normal guy, funny guy and he’s cool to talk with. Having all that sums it up for me,” Allen said. “In that meeting, the big thing was me being comfortable with the coaches"

BismarckDuke
05-18-2013, 01:36 PM
From what I have seen on this site, most people don't ask questions (that is most), they tend to talk about a youtube videos and how great a guy looks in them. Those videos usually are about the talents scoring ability. As we know, if you follow Duke Basketball for any amount of time, if the player doesn't play good defense he doesn't get on the floor.

Thus, any potential talent wanting to come to Duke better be good in playing defense, period. They better want to play defense, period. As was stated by someone else, I don't want to throw out names, but we have seen some top scorers come to Duke only to transfer because they couldn't or didn't want to play defense. I just hope any talent that says Duke has been his dream school realizes that if they commit to Duke, they have to be ready to play some good defense. And that people around them need to give them an honest evaluation of their defensive ability.

Playing man to man is easy, just follow one guy around the gym but playing Duke's switching defense is tough, you have to be ready to guard anyone at anytime at any place on the court. The big issue is being able to shift between guarding someone who is a spot up shooter to guarding someone who puts the ball on the floor or guarding someone who posts up and can hit a 10 footer to guarding someone who will only take you to the rim. etc. Some shooters tend to be focused on scoring when we have the ball and not how they have to adjust to a guy on defense.

Thus, for me, talk all you want about a talent but until I hear he can play good defense I don't consider him to be a difference maker for Duke. You can be a leading scorer for any state but if you don't want to or don't learn how to play Duke defense you can count on those 3 minutes at the end of game as your time.

As for Allen, I have not heard anything about his defensive ability so I'm not sure he sees much time at Duke. He may have been hurt for a couple of games so he didn't play much defense but in the games he did do good, I still didn't hear "he" played good defense. He can keep dancing but I haven't heard he isn't getting the two step right.

AtlDuke72
05-18-2013, 02:07 PM
From what I have seen on this site, most people don't ask questions (that is most), they tend to talk about a youtube videos and how great a guy looks in them. Those videos usually are about the talents scoring ability. As we know, if you follow Duke Basketball for any amount of time, if the player doesn't play good defense he doesn't get on the floor.

Thus, any potential talent wanting to come to Duke better be good in playing defense, period. They better want to play defense, period. As was stated by someone else, I don't want to throw out names, but we have seen some top scorers come to Duke only to transfer because they couldn't or didn't want to play defense. I just hope any talent that says Duke has been his dream school realizes that if they commit to Duke, they have to be ready to play some good defense. And that people around them need to give them an honest evaluation of their defensive ability.

Playing man to man is easy, just follow one guy around the gym but playing Duke's switching defense is tough, you have to be ready to guard anyone at anytime at any place on the court. The big issue is being able to shift between guarding someone who is a spot up shooter to guarding someone who puts the ball on the floor or guarding someone who posts up and can hit a 10 footer to guarding someone who will only take you to the rim. etc. Some shooters tend to be focused on scoring when we have the ball and not how they have to adjust to a guy on defense.

Thus, for me, talk all you want about a talent but until I hear he can play good defense I don't consider him to be a difference maker for Duke. You can be a leading scorer for any state but if you don't want to or don't learn how to play Duke defense you can count on those 3 minutes at the end of game as your time.

As for Allen, I have not heard anything about his defensive ability so I'm not sure he sees much time at Duke. He may have been hurt for a couple of games so he didn't play much defense but in the games he did do good, I still didn't hear "he" played good defense. He can keep dancing but I haven't heard he isn't getting the two step right.

So, are you suggesting that a recruit needs to be able to play defense? Maybe you should drop Coach K a note in case he hasn't thought of it.

BismarckDuke
05-18-2013, 02:42 PM
So, are you suggesting that a recruit needs to be able to play defense? Maybe you should drop Coach K a note in case he hasn't thought of it.

LOL, oh I know Coach K knows it but many on this board do not.

jimsumner
05-18-2013, 02:56 PM
Playing man to man is easy, just follow one guy around the gym but playing Duke's switching defense is tough, you have to be ready to .

You obviously never saw me in high school.

BD80
05-18-2013, 06:18 PM
You obviously never saw me in high school.

Saw your yearbook. Cave paintings. France.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Newton_14
05-18-2013, 09:45 PM
From what I have seen on this site, most people don't ask questions (that is most), they tend to talk about a youtube videos and how great a guy looks in them. Those videos usually are about the talents scoring ability. As we know, if you follow Duke Basketball for any amount of time, if the player doesn't play good defense he doesn't get on the floor.

Thus, any potential talent wanting to come to Duke better be good in playing defense, period. They better want to play defense, period. As was stated by someone else, I don't want to throw out names, but we have seen some top scorers come to Duke only to transfer because they couldn't or didn't want to play defense. I just hope any talent that says Duke has been his dream school realizes that if they commit to Duke, they have to be ready to play some good defense. And that people around them need to give them an honest evaluation of their defensive ability.

Playing man to man is easy, just follow one guy around the gym but playing Duke's switching defense is tough, you have to be ready to guard anyone at anytime at any place on the court. The big issue is being able to shift between guarding someone who is a spot up shooter to guarding someone who puts the ball on the floor or guarding someone who posts up and can hit a 10 footer to guarding someone who will only take you to the rim. etc. Some shooters tend to be focused on scoring when we have the ball and not how they have to adjust to a guy on defense.

Thus, for me, talk all you want about a talent but until I hear he can play good defense I don't consider him to be a difference maker for Duke. You can be a leading scorer for any state but if you don't want to or don't learn how to play Duke defense you can count on those 3 minutes at the end of game as your time.

As for Allen, I have not heard anything about his defensive ability so I'm not sure he sees much time at Duke. He may have been hurt for a couple of games so he didn't play much defense but in the games he did do good, I still didn't hear "he" played good defense. He can keep dancing but I haven't heard he isn't getting the two step right.

Playing man to man is far more than just "follow one guy around the gym", and Duke's man to man defense is not complex due to the switching. For one, K doesn't always switch every screen. He only does that when the make up of the team allows it, and he feels that is the best defense for that game. In K's defensive scheme's, each guy has many responsibilities in help and recover, rotating, denying passing lanes, hedging, flashing out at a guard coming off a screen, etc. It is especially hard on bigs as they have a lot of ground to cover, especially when one big is hedging out high. The 2nd big has to then cover his guy, plus the hedging big's man, until he recovers back from the hedge.

As for the "no defense no PT", there is a distinction to make there. Over the years there have been guys that could fill it up but were not great defenders who have played and played a lot. However, every one of those guys knew the defensive scheme's and knew them well. They knew where to be on the floor, what their assignments were, when and where to rotate, etc. They may not have been great at execution but it was lack of defensive talent rather than lack of knowledge. Guys that may have all the defensive talent in the world but can't figure out the scheme's end up sitting beside the walkon's and cheering a lot.

It takes time to learn it and some pick it up faster than others. With incoming freshmen, there is no video in the world that will reveal how quickly they can pick it up or if they can pick it up. The only guarantee is that Top 5 recruits will play from Day 1, and most Top 10 recruits will. After that it is a crapshoot.

BismarckDuke
05-18-2013, 11:28 PM
LOL, really, you make it sound like Duke's defense isn't complicated. The switching has nothing to do with the other team's make up. How many times this past season did Mason end up guarding a guard at the top of the key or Tyler guarding a post player down low? Because Duke switches a lot, a lot. The only time they don't switch is if the guy setting the screen did a crappy job at it.

The toughest part of the "switching" is going from one guy who can put the ball on the floor to a spot up shooter. You have to switch and then think quickly, after following a guy who you have to back off becuase he can drive past you to recognizing the guy you are now guarding can't be given any room because he can put it up on a dime. A guy like Scott Wood of NC State. He runs off screens like JJ did until he gets a guy who gives him room and he pops the shot.

That is exactly what complicates things, remembering which guy can do what and what you need to do to shut him down. It is not easy to do and if you are not good at defense in high school there is no chance you come to Duke and get a chance to play. I didn't say he has to be a stand out defender but he does need to play good defense and like to play good defense. From time to time, at post-game press conferences, Coach K has referred to his defense as a switching defense, not man to man.

Sure some players have come to Duke and didn't played good defense but they got to play, becuase they were willing to work at it. They wanted to get better at it. Thus, if the guy doesn't like to play defense or doesn't really want to play defense then Duke is not the place for him. JJ was not a real good defensive player but he worked at it, he gave it good effort. Guys like King only wanted to shot the ball and had no interest in playing defense. Not sure what his issue was, not good at it or not good enough to do it, but he didn't stick around and the guy has scored the most points in California High School basketball, I believe. Thus, with a scorer like that why didn't he stick around at Duke? Because he couldn't play defense, for whatever reason.

Turtleboy
05-19-2013, 01:29 AM
Saw your yearbook. Cave paintings. France.When he took a history exam he just wrote down what he was doing.

Des Esseintes
05-19-2013, 02:11 AM
Sure some players have come to Duke and didn't [find unicorns] but [K still sent them into the forest], becuase they were [pure of heart]. They wanted to [use the unicorn horn to heal sick people]. Thus, if the guy doesn't like to [pet their cute wet noses] or doesn't really want to [avoid impure thoughts] then Duke is not the place for him. JJ was not a real good [unicorn seeker] but he worked at it, he gave it good effort. Guys like King only wanted to shoot the [the unicorn] and had no interest in [listening to its woodland wisdom]. Not sure what his issue was, not good at it or not good enough to do it, but he didn't stick around and the guy has [made his home among the goblins and other corrupters-of-the-wood]. Thus, with a [unicorn mangler] like that why didn't he stick around at Duke? Because he couldn't play [the lute and sing the unicorn paean], for whatever reason.

Fixed it for you. Not everyone can play Duke defense.

BD80
05-19-2013, 07:57 AM
When he took a history exam he just wrote down what he was doing.

They couldn't play a box and one defense, because the box hadn't been invented ...

BismarckDuke
05-19-2013, 09:14 AM
Fixed it for you. Not everyone can play Duke defense.

LOL, I see creative written is your favorite class.

Now for a career, become a tax preparer. That career is the funnest one if you can be creative, just tell all your clients to give their pets a human name. The IRS never catches that, but if you are saying prayers they will want to know what you said in those prayers.

Newton_14
05-19-2013, 02:48 PM
LOL, really, you make it sound like Duke's defense isn't complicated. The switching has nothing to do with the other team's make up. How many times this past season did Mason end up guarding a guard at the top of the key or Tyler guarding a post player down low? Because Duke switches a lot, a lot. The only time they don't switch is if the guy setting the screen did a crappy job at it.

The toughest part of the "switching" is going from one guy who can put the ball on the floor to a spot up shooter. You have to switch and then think quickly, after following a guy who you have to back off becuase he can drive past you to recognizing the guy you are now guarding can't be given any room because he can put it up on a dime. A guy like Scott Wood of NC State. He runs off screens like JJ did until he gets a guy who gives him room and he pops the shot.

That is exactly what complicates things, remembering which guy can do what and what you need to do to shut him down. It is not easy to do and if you are not good at defense in high school there is no chance you come to Duke and get a chance to play. I didn't say he has to be a stand out defender but he does need to play good defense and like to play good defense. From time to time, at post-game press conferences, Coach K has referred to his defense as a switching defense, not man to man.

Sure some players have come to Duke and didn't played good defense but they got to play, becuase they were willing to work at it. They wanted to get better at it. Thus, if the guy doesn't like to play defense or doesn't really want to play defense then Duke is not the place for him. JJ was not a real good defensive player but he worked at it, he gave it good effort. Guys like King only wanted to shot the ball and had no interest in playing defense. Not sure what his issue was, not good at it or not good enough to do it, but he didn't stick around and the guy has scored the most points in California High School basketball, I believe. Thus, with a scorer like that why didn't he stick around at Duke? Because he couldn't play defense, for whatever reason.

LOL. I said the make up of Duke's team, not the opponent, and no, Duke's defense is not based upon switching. Like I said, it's far more complex than that. They don't switch every screen every time and never have. It's a mix. With certain Duke teams in certain years, they switch every screen on the perimeter. Other years they don't. It depends on lots of variables. 2 staples of Duke defense in almost every season, is denial of passing lanes, and help and recover. The staff also devises a defensive game plan for each opponent based on the scouting report prepared by one of the 3 assistants, who each are assigned to one of the upcoming opponents. Those defensive plans are not the same for every opponent. The Creighton game in the tourney was a great example of defensive wrinkles different from the norm that were designed to make life tough for the McDermott kid.

Agree that kids who don't like playing defense should look elsewhere. Just saying Duke has had lots of good/great players who were not all world defenders. Everyone of them though understood Duke's defense well, and worked hard to execute even if they were not great at it.

As for Mr. Allen, we won't know until he gets here, how quickly he will pick it up, and how good he will be at it. Hopefully he learns the system quickly, and is good at it. He appears to be a really good athlete so that is one plus in his favor.

BismarckDuke
05-19-2013, 10:59 PM
"I said the make up of Duke's team, not the opponent" - sorry, I didn't get that from your post, I thought you meant the other team's make up, you never said "Duke" team or "Duke's" make up. Caoch K's philosophy is to make teams accommodate to his team's make up, not the other way around.

I never said anything about anyone needing to be a world class defender. They just need to want to play defense and be good at it.

As a coach I pay attention to the detail and that means what happens without the ball, who can do what, on both teams, and how the game flows. I have read Coach K's books and his tutorials, he coaches the switch when a screen is solid, doesn't matter who the screen is set on or who is guarding the screener, a good screen means the guy guarding the screener pops out. Mason guarded PGs at the top of the arc and Tyler guarded post players down on the post. That doesn't happen because of the make up off Duke's team.

You might have your take on Duke's defense but I go with what Coach K says in his coaching tutorials.

Kedsy
05-19-2013, 11:45 PM
As a coach I pay attention to the detail and that means what happens without the ball, who can do what, on both teams, and how the game flows. I have read Coach K's books and his tutorials, he coaches the switch when a screen is solid, doesn't matter who the screen is set on or who is guarding the screener, a good screen means the guy guarding the screener pops out.

The thing is, everybody who plays man-to-man defense switches if they can't fight through the screen (or go over it or under it or around it in a timely/effective manner). What else can they do, just let the guy go free? But to call that behavior a "switching defense" and say it's different from man-to-man defense is not accurate.

There have been times in the past when Duke switched every screen (i.e., didn't try to fight through or go over/under/around the screen, the players switched as soon as the screen presented itself), but this hasn't happened recently. More commonly, we only switch depending on the situation. You are correct that this past season there were occasions where Mason ended up on a PG, but they weren't "automatic" switches; they were circumstances where the PG couldn't fight through the screen and couldn't get around it in time to stop a shot so Mason was forced to switch.

Also, don't confuse a "show" with a switch. Coach K's defensive philosophy calls for the big to show (e.g., to "pop out") on almost every screen, giving the screened defender some time to get back in position. But the big only shows for a moment or two then hustles back to his man. Very different from a switch.

Kedsy
05-20-2013, 12:13 AM
Also, don't confuse a "show" with a switch. Coach K's defensive philosophy calls for the big to show (e.g., to "pop out") on almost every screen, giving the screened defender some time to get back in position. But the big only shows for a moment or two then hustles back to his man. Very different from a switch.

Note that a "show" is also called a "hedge." Coach K likes his bigs to hedge a lot. Again, very different from a switch.

BismarckDuke
05-20-2013, 09:43 AM
Hedge, really? LOL, you are right. You hedge when the guy you just picked up from a screen isn't a threat to spot up for a shot, not known for being a quick release, or isn't going to explode to the basket. This is all done on the "feel" of the game. So, at times a hedge works, slows the guy down from looking to spot up or break for the basket.

I coach this based on the eyes. In the old days we were coached to watch their stomach, they were not going anywhere with out it. But a spot up shooter wants you to watch their stomach because they can hit the quick release and you have no defense for that, because you were looking at their stomach. The stomach doesn't tell you if the guy is going shoot a jump shot. So I coach my kids to watch the eyes, they tell you a lot. Just like when you ask a person if they are lying to you, the truth is in the eyes.

So if your guy is setting a screen you look at the eyes of the guy you are about to pick up. If his eyes are looking at the corner, away from the basket, hedge. If he is looking at the basket you have to go out and pick him up. Thus, if I was coaching against guys like Mason I would say, when his guy comes over to set a screen, look at the basket so he has to pick you up, thus the miss match, more than likely Tyler has to pick up his post player. Thus, if you are a PG and Rasheed's guy is coming to set the screen, look away from the basket so he hedges, I would not want him guarding me, he is too quick and too long. He can stop my dribble to the basket, he can jump out on my hopes for a spot up jumper. If Rasheed is guarding a scorer, you tell the scorers team mates they have to set a good screen so your guy has to pick up the scorer and Rasheed picks up you, more than likely, a non-threat.

As I coach my kids, I try to do it Coach K's way, it comes down to the game within the game. That is why Duke's defense is not easy to catch on. If Wood (NC St.) or Harris (Va) is coming off a screen you have to pop out on them right away, they can hit that spot up shot, they are very quick with it. If you watch, they usually try to run their guy off of the guy who has a slow defender. The slow defender usually gives them the room to get off the shot, weather it be from the person actually being slow or too slow to pick up the idea the new guy they are guarding is Wood or Harris who can get that quick shot off. This was the same for Seth or Rasheed. Seth had a field day when teams were too slow to catch this. You could see if guys were just too slow, too slow to pick up the idea that they were guarding Seth and you can't give him room or they just couldn't not think quick enough.

Remember back when JJ did this, ran off of screen after screen. I would laugh at how he went through 3 screens sometimes before he'd get the ball. Talk about slow, confused defensive players. But that was the game within the game. Thus, you have to be smart enough to be able to adjust, if not, you have to learn it. Rasheed did a good job at this but he came in known for playing good man to man defense and was known to be a good thinker so he was ready for Coach K's added twist. But some guys just are not good thinkers and have a tough time picking it up.

Thus, my concern with Allen is that people are not commenting on his defensive skills nor talking about his good thinking, basketball savvy. so I am very cautious in believing he will be able to contribute, especially right away. We can be hopeful, see Tyler and Josh.

gus
05-20-2013, 10:06 AM
... just tell all your clients to give their pets a human name. The IRS never catches that...

The number of dependents claimed by US taxpayers dropped by about 7 million from tax year 1986 to tax year 1987.

What happened?

The IRS began requiring SSNs for any dependents.

Kedsy
05-20-2013, 01:05 PM
Hedge, really? LOL...

Yeah, really. If you've studied Coach K's defensive philosophies as much as you claim, or even if you've watched a couple of Duke games, you'd know that on defense Duke players hedge a LOT more than they switch.

Incidentally, I assume your use of "LOL" is meant to be derisive? If not, you might want to rethink it, because that's exactly how it comes across. (And if so, it's not appreciated.)


Playing man to man is easy, just follow one guy around the gym but playing Duke's switching defense is tough, you have to be ready to guard anyone at anytime at any place on the court.

Of all your offbeat quotes, this is the one that puzzles me the most. In what alternate universe is playing good man-to-man defense "easy"? What good defensive players merely "follow one guy around the gym"? How is Duke's defense more of a "switching defense" than any other good man-to-man scheme?

You go on and on about defensive principles, but almost everything you say is applicable to ALL man-to-man defenses. Not just Duke's.


That is why Duke's defense is not easy to catch on.

This is kind of a straw man argument. Nobody here is arguing that Duke's defensive schemes are "easy to catch on." Pretty much everyone who posts here knows Duke's D is fairly complicated. What is incorrect about your argument is the "why" part. There are a lot of things about Coach K's schemes that are different from most man-to-man schemes, but you haven't mentioned any of them. And the amount of switches that Duke employs is certainly not even close to why Coach K's D is complicated.


As for Allen, I have not heard anything about his defensive ability so I'm not sure he sees much time at Duke.

How much time have you spent talking to people about Allen's defensive ability? Have you seen him play? Just because you "have not heard anything" doesn't necessarily mean he's a poor defender. The absence of evidence is not the same as negative evidence.


Thus, my concern with Allen is that people are not commenting on his defensive skills nor talking about his good thinking, basketball savvy. so I am very cautious in believing he will be able to contribute, especially right away.

This is another straw man argument. I don't think many people here believe Allen will be a big contributor right away. For a guy rated in the 30s, it would be almost unheard of in Coach K's time here for a player of Allen's ranking to step right in and be a star. Perhaps he'll improve a lot his senior year of high school and become good enough to play right away, but it would seem right now the odds are against it.

But again it's your "why" that doesn't make so much sense. Because "people are not commenting"? To whom are you referring? People on these boards, who have never seen him play and never even heard of this guy until a couple weeks before he committed? People who make the highlight videos? Who? Because other than his coaches or teammates or opponents or at least someone who has watched him play multiple games, who would have any idea whether he has strong defensive acumen or a high basketball IQ? And unless you've spoken to these people directly or read multiple lengthy interviews, how could you hope to hear a comment on those subjects?

nmduke2001
05-20-2013, 02:10 PM
Note that a "show" is also called a "hedge." Coach K likes his bigs to hedge a lot. Again, very different from a switch.

Kedsy, thank you.

A “cross switch” occurs when a defensive players switches onto a man that he is not accustomed to guarding; most often a guard on a post or vice-versa. Usually when a cross switch occurs it is the likely result of a poorly executive defensive scheme or a well executed offensive scheme. Duke’s guards often switch when the opposing guard is running baseline to baseline through screens. This is a guard to guard switch. Duke’s bigs hedge on nearly all high ball screens. The purpose of the hedge is to force the guard away from basket instead of into the lane on a high pick and roll. The hedge should last only as long as it takes the guard to recover and then the big slides back to defend his own man. Over the last few years, Duke had a really hard time defending the high screen resulting in cross switches. Having Mason and Ryan guarding point guards was not the plan.

After Brian Zoubek learned to use his feet, he became really good at hedging. Brian’s bulk would force the opposing guard really wide. As the opponent drifted away from the lane, it would give Duke’s guards an extra second to get back into position. In addition, Lance and Kyle did a really good job of sliding into the lane to prevent Brian’s man from rolling unimpeded into the lane. Lance and Kyle effectively would be guarding their men while still clogging the lane enough to allow Brian to recover. This, in my opinion is why Jon Scheyer was able to guard opposing guards so effectively.

CDu
05-20-2013, 02:27 PM
Over the last few years, Duke had a really hard time defending the high screen resulting in cross switches. Having Mason and Ryan guarding point guards was not the plan.

Yup. I think a big part of this was on Mason. Mason did a lot of things well at Duke, but I never got the sense that positional defense and defensive court awareness was a strength of his. He struggled to react to the high ball screen and thus failed to be in good position to hedge. A bad hedge lends itself to a cross switch because the guard is able to turn the corner.

Another guy who struggled with the "hedge and recover" concept was Hairston. Josh had no problems identifying a high screen and was very willing to jump out on the ball when such a screen occurred. But where Hairston struggled was in the "recover" part. Many times last year I'd see him jump out and effectively screen Cook from getting back in position, effectively forcing a cross switch and leaving him isolated on a guard.

As a big, there are two ways that you can fail on the high ball screens. If you fail to hedge, that is bad. If you fail to recover to your man, that's bad.


After Brian Zoubek learned to use his feet, he became really good at hedging. Brian’s bulk would force the opposing guard really wide. As the opponent drifted away from the lane, it would give Duke’s guards an extra second to get back into position. In addition, Lance and Kyle did a really good job of sliding into the lane to prevent Brian’s man from rolling unimpeded into the lane. Lance and Kyle effectively would be guarding their men while still clogging the lane enough to allow Brian to recover. This, in my opinion is why Jon Scheyer was able to guard opposing guards so effectively.

Yes, Zoubek (as a senior) was absolutely terrific at the hedge and recover concept. And he is a shining example that you don't necessarily have to be quick to be a good defender. Effort and good court awareness go a long way on the defensive end.

OldPhiKap
05-20-2013, 03:29 PM
Yes, Zoubek (as a senior) was absolutely terrific at the hedge and recover concept. And he is a shining example that you don't necessarily have to be quick to be a good defender. Effort and good court awareness go a long way on the defensive end.

Position, position, position.

(And communication, of course).

BD80
05-20-2013, 03:51 PM
... Yes, Zoubek (as a senior) was absolutely terrific at the hedge and recover concept. And he is a shining example that you don't necessarily have to be quick to be a good defender. Effort and good court awareness go a long way on the defensive end.

Well, not to pick nits, but he did have Lance (Sr), Jon (Sr) and Kyle (Jr) rotating behind him. To his credit, Brian did learn to hedge well, using the best angle, on balance, and keeping his hands up. It also helped that he was strong enough to impede with one arm the progress of the man setting the pick and then rolling to the basket. As much time as people spend talking about defensive abilities with respect to the high screen, I would think that more time would be spent discussing the abilities/inabilities of the wings to rotate to guard the pick setter as our post player steps out to defend the ball - that is where the defense typically breaks down. Only teams like Louisville (with lightning quick guards) consistently beat the hedge outright.

nmduke2001
05-20-2013, 03:57 PM
After Brian Zoubek learned to use his feet, he became really good at hedging. Brian’s bulk would force the opposing guard really wide. As the opponent drifted away from the lane, it would give Duke’s guards an extra second to get back into position. In addition, Lance and Kyle did a really good job of sliding into the lane to prevent Brian’s man from rolling unimpeded into the lane. Lance and Kyle effectively would be guarding their men while still clogging the lane enough to allow Brian to recover. This, in my opinion is why Jon Scheyer was able to guard opposing guards so effectively.


Well, not to pick nits, but he did have Lance (Sr), Jon (Sr) and Kyle (Jr) rotating behind him. To his credit, Brian did learn to hedge well, using the best angle, on balance, and keeping his hands up. It also helped that he was strong enough to impede with one arm the progress of the man setting the pick and then rolling to the basket. As much time as people spend talking about defensive abilities with respect to the high screen, I would think that more time would be spent discussing the abilities/inabilities of the wings to rotate to guard the pick setter as our post player steps out to defend the ball - that is where the defense typically breaks down. Only teams like Louisville (with lightning quick guards) consistently beat the hedge outright.
See bold above

CLW
06-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Allen has some hops

https://vine.co/v/bLDEdhxxJMb

https://vine.co/v/bLD9IbwiMIE

juise
12-31-2013, 02:55 AM
Allen has some hops

https://vine.co/v/bLDEdhxxJMb

https://vine.co/v/bLD9IbwiMIE

The latest on Grayson's hops. (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10219826&ex_cid=espnapi_public)

duke96
12-31-2013, 10:48 AM
The latest on Grayson's hops. (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10219826&ex_cid=espnapi_public)

Do you think he wears a cup for that dunk?

BD80
12-31-2013, 10:49 AM
Do you think he wears a cup for that dunk?

NOT the time for someone to shout: "heads up!"

gus
12-31-2013, 12:20 PM
The latest on Grayson's hops. (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10219826&ex_cid=espnapi_public)

I think he travelled.

flyingdutchdevil
12-31-2013, 12:39 PM
I think he travelled.

He also deserved a technical for hanging on the rim too long.

tbyers11
12-31-2013, 01:36 PM
He also deserved a technical for hanging on the rim too long.

Don't worry they gave Daniel Ewing a T (or a 6 game suspension ;))overseas to make up for it.

stickdog
01-02-2014, 02:46 AM
Grayson led his team to an unexpected victory in the Beach Ball Classic against some very impressive D1 competition.

Here are Grayson's MVP stats over 4 BBC games against some HS stellar competition:

34-51 FG, 11-19 threes, 17-20 FTs, 24 rebounds, 10 assists, 96 points in 101 minutes of play

67% FG, 58% three point FG, 85% FT, 77% Effective FG, 79% True Shooting Percentage

38 points, 9.5 rebounds & 4 assists per 40 minutes of play

I mean, who does all that in a big time holiday tournament? That's beyond belief efficiency. 73% from two point range. 58% from three point range. 85% from the free throw line while drawing a lot of fouls. Unbelievable performance.

flyingdutchdevil
01-02-2014, 09:47 AM
I'm not so sure about the Marty comparisons. Marty was insanely athletic and had great hops, just like Allen. But I think that's where the comparisons stop. Marty was bigger, but Allen is craftier and loves going to the rim. I know little of Allen's D, but I've read that he's very good at weak side blocks but needs to be better at on-the-ball D.

I think Daniel Ewing is a good comparison (minus the above average D and plus more athleticism). I would love to see another Daniel Ewing at Duke.

jv001
01-03-2014, 09:08 AM
I'm not so sure about the Marty comparisons. Marty was insanely athletic and had great hops, just like Allen. But I think that's where the comparisons stop. Marty was bigger, but Allen is craftier and loves going to the rim. I know little of Allen's D, but I've read that he's very good at weak side blocks but needs to be better at on-the-ball D.

I think Daniel Ewing is a good comparison (minus the above average D and plus more athleticism). I would love to see another Daniel Ewing at Duke.

Maybe Allen will be more like Marty Clark but more athletic. Marty Clark had a decent Duke career. He didn't play very much his freshman(4.5 mpg) and sophomore years(7.9 mpg). However his junior year(18.8 mpg) and his senior year(21.1 mpg) he played his self into the rotation by getting better on defense. He was never a star or all ACC, but he was a captain his senior year(1994). He averaged 8.1 ppg and shot .450% from the field and .836% FTs. That Marty was a pretty good player. GoDuke!

CLW
02-23-2014, 09:07 AM
Well maybe there is some JJ/laettner to this kid:


Duke beats top teams so often it's not that big of a deal #notlikeunc

Likin' this kid already.

DukieInBrasil
02-23-2014, 09:43 AM
Well maybe there is some JJ/laettner to this kid:
Likin' this kid already.

nice quip! like his attitude already!!

1 24 90
02-28-2014, 08:20 AM
http://www.news4jax.com/sports/the-hooper-with-hops-the-grayson-allen-story/-/475646/24721812/-/7190ssz/-/index.html

Henderson
02-28-2014, 09:19 AM
http://www.news4jax.com/sports/the-hooper-with-hops-the-grayson-allen-story/-/475646/24721812/-/7190ssz/-/index.html

Very cool. Thanks for posting. My 3 favorite parts:

1. He slipped on the Duke jersey right before dunking over 4 of his 6'8" team mates to win the slam dunk contest.
2. He says that when he's in the air, we wants to punish the rim (and pump up his team while ruining the opponent's momentum).
3. The dunk over the 6'2" sportscaster interviewing him.

flyingdutchdevil
02-28-2014, 09:20 AM
http://www.news4jax.com/sports/the-hooper-with-hops-the-grayson-allen-story/-/475646/24721812/-/7190ssz/-/index.html

He has a ginormous wingspan. His hops are off the charts, but what really is shocking is that wingspan.

Also, he did a few Euro steps in that video. Between his athleticism and his ability to get to the rim, we're looking at a poor man's Ginobili.

FerryFor50
02-28-2014, 09:48 AM
I just hope he posterizes some UNC player so we can finally combat the picture of Danny Green dunking on Greg Paulus.

GGLC
02-28-2014, 10:15 AM
Awesome link. And fdd is exactly right about his wingspan -- really, really impressive.

Looking forward to seeing him contribute at Duke!

DukeFanSince1990
02-28-2014, 10:38 AM
A good athlete can also make a good defender. Lets hope he matches the ability with tenacity.

Kedsy
02-28-2014, 10:40 AM
A good athlete can also make a good defender. Lets hope he matches the ability with tenacity.

Agreed. But just because a great athlete can be a good defender doesn't mean he will be. Olek Czyz and Marty Pocius had great hops too.

FerryFor50
02-28-2014, 10:43 AM
Agreed. But just because a great athlete can be a good defender doesn't mean he will be. Olek Czyz and Marty Pocius had great hops too.

Also, TT and Wojo were/are good/great defenders without great athleticism.

DukeFanSince1990
02-28-2014, 10:52 AM
Agreed. But just because a great athlete can be a good defender doesn't mean he will be. Olek Czyz and Marty Pocius had great hops too.

Agreed, that’s why I would love to see the tenacity coupled with it. I think good athletes sometimes rely on the athletic gifts to play defense instead of learning the fundamentals (stance, footwork, angles, etc.) But the not so explosive players HAVE to learn the fundamentals and thus a lot of times become really good defenders (TT and Wojo per Ferry)

gumbomoop
02-28-2014, 10:53 AM
He says that when he's in the air, he wants to punish the rim.

As, so it appears, do all thunder-dumbers. While rim-punishing thunder-dumbs are highlight-exciting, I personally prefer that our guys put the ball safely through the net with solid 2-handed dunks. Clearly there are times [angles, traffic] when the dunker can only use one hand. Yet there are also plays in which the driver chooses to position himself in such a way as to necessitate a one-hander, when with some different footwork and slightly modified driving angle, he could use both hands.

Rim-punishing often refers to open-court dunks. Leave rim-punishing to dumb opponents, who will occasionally cost their team a win. Smart is better than dumb. Less exciting, probably, but more efficient.

I look forward to Grayson's smart, exciting game.

Duke4life92
02-28-2014, 01:49 PM
Love the dunking with ease but the sweet shooting stroke will be welcome aswell.:D more athletic jj, he says with fingers crossed :)

JasonEvans
02-28-2014, 02:05 PM
more athletic jj, he says with fingers crossed :)

Ummm, unrealistic expectations much?

I am sure Grayson will be a wonderful addition to the team and contribute mightily to our success, but many people think he will play no more than a deep sub role next season. The odds that he is anywhere close to JJ-like with his shooting touch are next to zero.

-Jason "I'll be mildly surprised if Grayson is ahead of Matt Jones in the perimeter rotation at the start of next season" Evans

JPtheGame
02-28-2014, 02:13 PM
Very cool. Thanks for posting. My 3 favorite parts:

1. He slipped on the Duke jersey right before dunking over 4 of his 6'8" team mates to win the slam dunk contest.
2. He says that when he's in the air, we wants to punish the rim (and pump up his team while ruining the opponent's momentum).
3. The dunk over the 6'2" sportscaster interviewing him.

My favorite parts:
1. The local 234 commercial. That union is top notch and they do a hell of a job installing office space for our kids.
2. Realizing that in Florida, if a white kid can dunk, it's news. Not just a lead in, the entire story.

Listen to Quants
02-28-2014, 02:26 PM
Also, TT and Wojo were/are good/great defenders without great athleticism.

Certainly Wojo's hops are not legendary, but I thought his lateral, reactive quickness and body-position/balance were truly outstanding. There did seem to be a rule interpretation change based on his abilities ... kind of like Chamberlain causing the new rule about jumping forward from the free throw line ... kind-of.

GGLC
02-28-2014, 02:31 PM
-Jason "I'll be mildly surprised if Grayson is ahead of Matt Jones in the perimeter rotation at the start of next season" Evans

I would be shocked.

The bigger question, IMO, will be whether Grayson is ahead of Semi as the ninth man (assuming Jabari and Rodney leave and Myles doesn't come)...and obviously that's dependent on a ton of factors, not least the development of both players over the summer and how well they mesh with K's desired offensive and defensive schemes.

But yeah, I have to believe that a sophomore Matt Jones will get more burn than he's doing this year, unless his offense simply does not develop at all -- and even then he'd most likely be ahead of Grayson just by virtue of his stellar perimeter defense.

...But, as I've said, I think Grayson has got a TON of potential and I look forward to rooting hard for him for a long time to come.

WillJ
02-28-2014, 02:46 PM
Certainly Wojo's hops are not legendary, but I thought his lateral, reactive quickness and body-position/balance were truly outstanding. There did seem to be a rule interpretation change based on his abilities ... kind of like Chamberlain causing the new rule about jumping forward from the free throw line ... kind-of.

Good point on Wojo. Lateral quickness and jumping ability are imperfectly correlated, and I think it's lateral quickness that is more important in basketball. Wojo, Bobby Hurley, and Tommy Amaker all had excellent lateral quickness without being spectacular jumpers - I can't remember any of them ever dunking, for example.

flyingdutchdevil
02-28-2014, 04:27 PM
I would be shocked.

The bigger question, IMO, will be whether Grayson is ahead of Semi as the ninth man (assuming Jabari and Rodney leave and Myles doesn't come)...and obviously that's dependent on a ton of factors, not least the development of both players over the summer and how well they mesh with K's desired offensive and defensive schemes.

But yeah, I have to believe that a sophomore Matt Jones will get more burn than he's doing this year, unless his offense simply does not develop at all -- and even then he'd most likely be ahead of Grayson just by virtue of his stellar perimeter defense.

...But, as I've said, I think Grayson has got a TON of potential and I look forward to rooting hard for him for a long time to come.

I assume your eight man rotation in front of Semi is Cook, Jones, Jones, the Oak, Sulaimon, AJ, MP3, and Winslow? Can't really disagree with that. Winslow, though, is the wildcard. I don't know enough about his game, other than that he's ridiculously athletic. But so is Semi. And so was Gbinije (Gbinije is still athletic, just not athletic at Duke ;)).

I hope Grayson gets M. Jones 2013/2014 spot minutes, just so that he gets to see the floor at certain times. However, it sounds like Grayson really needs to focus on his D.

GGLC
02-28-2014, 04:42 PM
I assume your eight man rotation in front of Semi is Cook, Jones, Jones, the Oak, Sulaimon, AJ, MP3, and Winslow? Can't really disagree with that. Winslow, though, is the wildcard. I don't know enough about his game, other than that he's ridiculously athletic. But so is Semi. And so was Gbinije (Gbinije is still athletic, just not athletic at Duke ;)).

I hope Grayson gets M. Jones 2013/2014 spot minutes, just so that he gets to see the floor at certain times. However, it sounds like Grayson really needs to focus on his D.

Yeah, I think that not only does Winslow appear to have the tools to be successful as a freshman, but he'll fill a distinct need of ours as a slashing/rebounding wing if Rodney and Jabari go pro. Good combination of factors to get him significant minutes next year. Obviously I have high hopes for Semi as well, though, and if he outplayed Winslow with his additional year of experience and earned a spot in the rotation ahead of him I would have no complaints whatsoever.

roywhite
02-28-2014, 05:33 PM
Good point on Wojo. Lateral quickness and jumping ability are imperfectly correlated, and I think it's lateral quickness that is more important in basketball. Wojo, Bobby Hurley, and Tommy Amaker all had excellent lateral quickness without being spectacular jumpers - I can't remember any of them ever dunking, for example.

Wojo made the most of his college career, but I think it's an overstatement to say he had excellent lateral quickness. Part of the story of the second half comeback and eventual win by Kentucky over Duke in the 1998 Regional Finals was Duke's inability (with Wojo in a key position) to stop the penetration of Kentucky's guards. Wayne Turner would not say Wojo had excellent lateral quickness.

To the subject of this thread, Grayson Allen seems like a very interesting prospect, but will be hard put to see much playing time as a freshman IMO.

jv001
02-28-2014, 10:38 PM
Good point on Wojo. Lateral quickness and jumping ability are imperfectly correlated, and I think it's lateral quickness that is more important in basketball. Wojo, Bobby Hurley, and Tommy Amaker all had excellent lateral quickness without being spectacular jumpers - I can't remember any of them ever dunking, for example.

I may be wrong about this, but I think Hurley was getting a lot of flack from his team mates that he couldn't dunk. So, in one televised game, he dunked and came down awkwardly. He said after that, he would never dunk again. As for Wojo and TA, I don't think they ever tried to dunk in a game. GoDuke!

Newton_14
03-01-2014, 07:43 AM
I just hope he posterizes some UNC player so we can finally combat the picture of Danny Green dunking on Greg Paulus.
Not to derail a thread on Grayson, but MP2 had a great opportunity last season in Cameron, against the infamous PJ Hairston, and pulled up at the last second (I feel, because he had 4 Fouls and was scared of fouling out).

It was late in the 2nd half, and score was fairly tight with Duke leading. Mason drives from the left elbow to a wide open lane, PJ comes over to take the charge, Mason rises and I am thinking "Finally", but at the last second, flips his hand from over to under for a finger roll attempt, and adjusts his body in mid-air to try an avoid the charge. Finger roll misses, and ref calls a block. I still believe he could have easily dunked it and had he done so, the ref would have still called it a block. So close. (Would have been the perfect unc player to get posterize revenge on too).

So, maybe Grayson has that on his bucket list! With his hops and wingspan, he is certainly a good candidate.

slower
03-01-2014, 08:14 AM
I just hope he posterizes some UNC player so we can finally combat the picture of Danny Green dunking on Greg Paulus.

We'll always have Hansbrough's bloody nose. :p

WillJ
03-01-2014, 08:39 AM
Wojo made the most of his college career, but I think it's an overstatement to say he had excellent lateral quickness.

Point taken - I think we probably agree, however, that his lateral quickness was better than his jumping:).

BD80
03-01-2014, 09:27 AM
Point taken - I think we probably agree, however, that [Wojo's] lateral quickness was better than his jumping:).

OK. Have you ever seen Wojo jump?

No, really. Is there evidence that he can jump?

How come no one has mentioned Chris Collins' lateral quickness?

Duke4life92
03-01-2014, 12:39 PM
Ummm, unrealistic expectations much?

I am sure Grayson will be a wonderful addition to the team and contribute mightily to our success, but many people think he will play no more than a deep sub role next season. The odds that he is anywhere close to JJ-like with his shooting touch are next to zero.

Not unrealistic expectations much?Guess you missed the fingers crossed smiley face wishing part of my post huh?He may have a hard time getting time next yr but could fill the shooting role left void by dre.The kid is super athletic x10 over one of my alltime favorite's in jj and his jump shot is quick and smooth out past nba range from the few games i've watched.Now i know that does'nt mean he'll show that at acc level competition hence the fingers crossed he can become that type player in the long run.Hence my opinion(with fingers crossed :))