2013 NBA Playoffs Thread... Where Duke Happens!

[Billy Dat]

I hope all the DBR NBA fans are interested in chatting-up the postseason.

I watched the Knicks v Celtics today and was happy with the Knicks game 1 victory. I was hoping for a Shav appearance but those will likely be sporadic and brief. The Celtics really need the next 3 (Green, Bradley and Lee) after the Big 2 (KG and PP) to play big. Green and Bradley started well, but nobody on Boston really had a good Q4 as Celtics only scored 8 points in the 4th, and 25 in the entire second half. NY needed to win game 1 to send an early message that, maybe, this is the year they break through and win a few rounds. I can only hope. Starter, how are you feeling about the Knicks at this point?

I am just picking up the end of the Nets v Bulls and it looks like Brooklyn rolled. CDu and other DBR Bulls fans, I am wondering how you feel about all the "should D.Rose play or not?" chatter. The Nets have played really well the last quarter of the regular season.

I'm about to start in with LAC v Memphis. Looking forward to the posts over the next 2 months. As always, I recommend you non-NBA types give it a look, the NBA playoffs are awesome!!!!!

[BD80]

I hope all the DBR NBA fans are interested in chatting-up the postseason.

I watched the Knicks v Celtics today and was happy with the Knicks game 1 victory. I was hoping for a Shav appearance but those will likely be sporadic and brief. The Celtics really need the next 3 (Green, Bradley and Lee) after the Big 2 (KG and PP) to play big. Green and Bradley started well, but nobody on Boston really had a good Q4 as Celtics only scored 8 points in the 4th, and 25 in the entire second half. NY needed to win game 1 to send an early message that, maybe, this is the year they break through and win a few rounds. I can only hope. Starter, how are you feeling about the Knicks at this point?

I am just picking up the end of the Nets v Bulls and it looks like Brooklyn rolled. CDu and other DBR Bulls fans, I am wondering how you feel about all the "should D.Rose play or not?" chatter. The Nets have played really well the last quarter of the regular season.

I'm about to start in with LAC v Memphis. Looking forward to the posts over the next 2 months. As always, I recommend you non-NBA types give it a look, the NBA playoffs are awesome!!!!!

Can anyone remember the last time the Knicks played defense? Very impressive!

[Billy Dat]

Can anyone remember the last time the Knicks played defense? Very impressive!

Shots fired! You're right, though. The D under Woodson is certainly better then the D under 'Antoni. In the Isiah era, the team was so pitiful that I assumed the D was bad. I guess the answer is the defense is the best it's been since the Van Gundy era.

[brevity]

I hope all the DBR NBA fans are interested in chatting-up the postseason.

I think I might give it a go this year because (1) I live in an NBA city now and (2) so many Duke players are involved. I would go so far as to recommend the mods change this thread title to "The 2013 NBA Playoffs... where Duke happens". From what I can tell, we have ten former Duke players on a playoff team's roster:

Shane Battier, Heat
Carlos Boozer, Bulls
Luol Deng, Bulls
Chris Duhon, Lakers
Mike Dunleavy, Bucks
Grant Hill, Clippers
Dahntay Jones, Hawks
Miles Plumlee, Pacers
Shavlik Randolph, Celtics
J.J. Redick, Bucks

That's a lot of exposure over the next, what, 5 months of playoffs? You may or may not want to play favorites, but I would really like to see Grant Hill go as far as possible, seeing as how he's the oldest active player in the league (the Knicks waived (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/9164871/new-york-knicks-waive-kurt-thomas-oldest-player-nba) Kurt Thomas on April 12) and the 14th oldest active player in league history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_and_youngest_National_Basketball_As sociation_players). Also, anyone who helps the Clippers win a title would pretty much be immortal in my book.

While we're counting, UNC has nine:

Harrison Barnes, Warriors
Ed Davis, Grizzlies
Raymond Felton, Knicks
Danny Green, Spurs
Tyler Hansbrough, Pacers
John Henson, Bucks
Antawn Jamison, Lakers
Ty Lawson, Nuggets
Jerry Stackhouse, Nets

Something to brag about. Apologies if I forgot a Duke player, fewer apologies if I forgot a Tarheel.

[BD80]

... anyone who helps the Clippers win a title would pretty much be immortal in my book. ...

I believe the term is "mythological" ...

[Des Esseintes]

That's a lot of exposure over the next, what, 5 months of playoffs? You may or may not want to play favorites, but I would really like to see Grant Hill go as far as possible, seeing as how he's the oldest active player in the league (the Knicks waived (http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/9164871/new-york-knicks-waive-kurt-thomas-oldest-player-nba) Kurt Thomas on April 12) and the 14th oldest active player in league history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_and_youngest_National_Basketball_As sociation_players). Also, anyone who helps the Clippers win a title would pretty much be immortal in my book.



Stackhouse has to be pretty high on that ladder, too, no? Just amazing longevity from those two players. Was Nerlens Noel even born by the time those guys had entered the league?

[CDu]

I am just picking up the end of the Nets v Bulls and it looks like Brooklyn rolled. CDu and other DBR Bulls fans, I am wondering how you feel about all the "should D.Rose play or not?" chatter. The Nets have played really well the last quarter of the regular season.

Well, I can't speak for Rose, but it seems pretty clear that his knee is healthy at this point. It's been nearly a full year since he had surgery, and typical recovery time is 6-9 months for his injury. He's been medically cleared to play. So it certainly seems like he should have come back already. But it's his body, his career. So if he really does not feel ready to go, he shouldn't come back.

What appears to be happening is that Rose doesn't want to return unless he can be dominant. I think his ego isn't letting him come back and just be good. He wants to be great. And since he's not ready to be great, he hasn't yet returned. Just a theory, though.

It could also be that he's not psychologically back yet. Many say that the toughest hurdle to clear is the psychological hurdle to go all out again. For a player whose game is so dependent on being an all-out player who out-athletes you (i.e., he's not crafty, nor is he a good shooter - the anti-Seth Curry), that's an especially big hurdle.

Whatever the reason, I'd be pretty surprised if he returns this year. I'd say the odds decreased even more with the loss last night. If the Bulls fall way behind the Nets, he may just decide to wait till next year.

As for that series itself (and the Bulls' situation), I think the injuries might just be too much to overcome. Rose is out. Noah is possibly (probably?) out for the series with a partially torn plantar fascia. Deng is hurting. Gibson is hurting. Thibadeau's coaching style is incredibly demanding, and it appears that the result has been a very worn/broken down team. Without 2 of their 3 best players, with their 2nd and 5th/6th best players playing through injuries, it may just be too much to ask to get the win.

I posted last summer that it could have made sense for the Bulls to amnesty Boozer and trade Deng and try to reload via the draft. The idea being that they could get a lottery pick for Deng (and save ~$10 million per year) and save $15+ million per year from Boozer. With this season possibly a lost cause already due to the Rose injury, maybe tanking this year (and getting another lottery pick this summer), the Bulls could build around Rose, Butler (who has really emerged in the second half this year), 2 lottery picks, Gibson, Noah, and Mirotic (a young Euro star that they drafted two years ago), all while being well below the text level. Now, obviously, I didn't expect Rose to sit out all year, so I wasn't fully committed to the idea. But in hindsight, that's starting to look like it was the right idea - definite short-term loss for a young, very loaded roster with financial flexibility.

Oh well. Hopefully Noah and Rose surprise and return during the series. If they do (and we don't suffer any more injuries), then I think the Bulls are the second-best team in the East. If not, I don't think they get out of the first round.

[BD80]

... I posted last summer that it could have made sense for the Bulls to amnesty Boozer and trade Deng and try to reload via the draft. The idea being that they could get a lottery pick for Deng (and save ~$10 million per year) and save $15+ million per year from Boozer. ...

Owners get physically ill at the prospect of paying a player to play for another team, particularly for a rival. Los played like a $15 mil player, the Bulls don't make the playoffs without him. Can you imagine Boozer playing this season for the Heat, the Knicks, the Celtics, or the Nets - for the veterans minimum?

[CDu]

Owners get physically ill at the prospect of paying a player to play for another team, particularly for a rival. Los played like a $15 mil player, the Bulls don't make the playoffs without him. Can you imagine Boozer playing this season for the Heat, the Knicks, the Celtics, or the Nets - for the veterans minimum?

First of all, Boozer did not play like a $15+ million player this year. He had a solid year offensively (16 and 10), but he's a huge liability defensively. And his offense has been limited to jumpshots, which makes him extremely inconsistent. Is he a valuable player? Absolutely. Is he a $15+ million player in this era of the repeater luxury tax penalty? No way.

But aside from that, I said that tanking this season would have stunk. But next year would likely be better, and the year after that would be even better. And we'd have the flexibility to contend for several years. It's a tradeoff of one terrible season for a much better future.

As is, the Bulls are stuck with a payroll that is into the tax and only getting larger. And they don't have any forseeable way to add cheap, high-quality players through the draft (because they're good enough to be a high seed every year. But the pieces that they have might not be good enough to compete for a title - especially considering that Boozer is on the back end of his career now.

So would it have been painful to watch Boozer play well for a contender this year? Absolutely. Would it have still been the wise move (in hindsight)? I think so.

[theAlaskanBear]

First of all, Boozer did not play like a $15+ million player this year. He had a solid year offensively (16 and 10), but he's a huge liability defensively. And his offense has been limited to jumpshots, which makes him extremely inconsistent. Is he a valuable player? Absolutely. Is he a $15+ million player in this era of the repeater luxury tax penalty? No way.

But aside from that, I said that tanking this season would have stunk. But next year would likely be better, and the year after that would be even better. And we'd have the flexibility to contend for several years. It's a tradeoff of one terrible season for a much better future.

As is, the Bulls are stuck with a payroll that is into the tax and only getting larger. And they don't have any forseeable way to add cheap, high-quality players through the draft (because they're good enough to be a high seed every year. But the pieces that they have might not be good enough to compete for a title - especially considering that Boozer is on the back end of his career now.

So would it have been painful to watch Boozer play well for a contender this year? Absolutely. Would it have still been the wise move (in hindsight)? I think so.

You're opinion certainly has some truth to it, concerning over structure of the Bulls payroll, but I watched a ton of Bulls games this year and while Boozer will never win a DPOY award, he is not nearly the liability he is made out to be. I think his reputation for being so bad defensively is a bit inflated.

Lets look at the last 4 years -- his last year in UTAH and his three seasons in Chicago. Boozer has been a top-40 player each year in DRtg (basketball-reference), including 13th and 6th in the NBA. Now lets look at his defensive win-shares.

09-10: 4.6 -- good for 9th best
10-11: 3.9 -- 19th best
11-12: 4.3 -- 4th best
12-13: 4.3 -- 13th best

Now, you can claim that Thib's defensive schemes and the over-all defensive strength of the Bulls manages to "hide" Boozer on defense....but all the evidence I see points to Boozer being an average defensive player over his career (he did a few bad season with the Jazz 03-06, but one must also factor in some injuries those years), and a better defender (above average) as his career has progressed.

Now, we can argue about the methodology of defensive metrics, but if Boozer was such a bad defender, and being carried by his teammates, then you would expect his Bulls teammates to rank higher than he does...but that is not the case.

Obviously there are a lot variables to defensive, who do you guard, what is the teams defensive game plan and scheme, etc etc, but enough evidence exists to debunk the idea that Boozer is terrible defensively.

A bigger concern is one you have mentioned: this has been his least efficient offensive season by far...his declining athleticism has robbed him of certain parts of his offensive game. Having to the be focal point of the Bulls offense this year with the Rose injury has amplified games where his jump-shot is off, and defenses can focus on him. His FG% is way below average. His offensive rating and offensive win shares has plummeted this season.

[CDu]

You're opinion certainly has some truth to it, concerning over structure of the Bulls payroll, but I watched a ton of Bulls games this year and while Boozer will never win a DPOY award, he is not nearly the liability he is made out to be. I think his reputation for being so bad defensively is a bit inflated.

Lets look at the last 4 years -- his last year in UTAH and his three seasons in Chicago. Boozer has been a top-40 player each year in DRtg (basketball-reference), including 13th and 6th in the NBA. Now lets look at his defensive win-shares.

09-10: 4.6 -- good for 9th best
10-11: 3.9 -- 19th best
11-12: 4.3 -- 4th best
12-13: 4.3 -- 13th best

Now, you can claim that Thib's defensive schemes and the over-all defensive strength of the Bulls manages to "hide" Boozer on defense....but all the evidence I see points to Boozer being an average defensive player over his career (he did a few bad season with the Jazz 03-06, but one must also factor in some injuries those years), and a better defender (above average) as his career has progressed.

Now, we can argue about the methodology of defensive metrics, but if Boozer was such a bad defender, and being carried by his teammates, then you would expect his Bulls teammates to rank higher than he does...but that is not the case.

Obviously there are a lot variables to defensive, who do you guard, what is the teams defensive game plan and scheme, etc etc, but enough evidence exists to debunk the idea that Boozer is terrible defensively.

I'll be honest: I know very little about how DRtg is calculated. But if DRtg suggests Boozer is a good defender, well, then I don't think too highly of the metric. Boozer is easily the worst defender of the Bulls' three regular bigs. He may still be a good defensive rebounder, but he regularly gets the easiest possible post assignment (Noah and Gibson always take the tougher matchup, regardless of position) and even then he still gets beaten. He's very slow (both in terms of straight-ahead speed and lateral movement) and can't jump, and he doesn't anticipate well defensively. It is a tribute to Thibs' gameplan abilities that Boozer's defensive liability isn't more regularly exploited.


A bigger concern is one you have mentioned: this has been his least efficient offensive season by far...his declining athleticism has robbed him of certain parts of his offensive game. Having to the be focal point of the Bulls offense this year with the Rose injury has amplified games where his jump-shot is off, and defenses can focus on him. His FG% is way below average. His offensive rating and offensive win shares has plummeted this season.

I think this can't be stated enough. Boozer used to be just athletic enough that he could make you pay on a pick and roll. And if you bit on his pump fake, he could get to the rim and finish. But now? He is too slow and too lacking in vertical that he has trouble finishing in traffic and can't make you pay for overplaying his shot. So he shoots a TON of 15-18 footers (often in fadeaway fashion). He makes a decent percentage of them, but it definitely comes and goes.

He's simply not worth the contract he has (even adjusting for what "worth it" means in the NBA). He is a solid player, but he's paid to be a star player and he's just not nearly a star player anymore. If he had the type of deal that Gibson has ($8-9 million) he'd be a huge value. But he's the second-highest paid player on the team, and he's arguably the 4th/5th/6th best player on the team (depending upon how you feel about Gibson and Butler).

Basically, the Bulls are in a financial position where they're going to likely have to let Deng walk after next year so as to avoid the repeater tax penalty. And they'll still be over the cap at that point unless they amnesty Boozer. So after next year, they'll either lose Deng or amnesty Boozer (or both), and they still won't have enough cap space to add a big-time free agent. So they'll be stuck without Deng and/or Boozer, without sufficient cap space, and without two nice lottery picks with 1-2 years of experience.

Had they traded Deng and amnestied Boozer, this season would have stunk. But we'd enter the 2013-2014 season with Rose, Butler, 2 lottery picks, Noah, Gibson, and cap space to add another solid piece of the puzzle (not a star). Or following the 2014 season, we'd have enough cap space to add that other piece, and we'd likely be adding Mirotic from Europe. And Rose and Butler would be in their primes, and Noah and Gibson would still be on the right side of 30.

But, alas, the management either didn't have that foresight, or felt sure that Rose would be back (which might have given us a chance at a title had Noah not also gotten hurt), or was afraid to pay Boozer to play elsewhere (or all 3).

[sagegrouse]

I think this can't be stated enough. Boozer used to be just athletic enough that he could make you pay on a pick and roll. And if you bit on his pump fake, he could get to the rim and finish. But now? He is too slow and too lacking in vertical that he has trouble finishing in traffic and can't make you pay for overplaying his shot. So he shoots a TON of 15-18 footers (often in fadeaway fashion). He makes a decent percentage of them, but it definitely comes and goes.

He's simply not worth the contract he has (even adjusting for what "worth it" means in the NBA). He is a solid player, but he's paid to be a star player and he's just not nearly a star player anymore. If he had the type of deal that Gibson has ($8-9 million) he'd be a huge value. But he's the second-highest paid player on the team, and he's arguably the 4th/5th/6th best player on the team (depending upon how you feel about Gibson and Butler).



When I have watched the Bulls, Boozer has more often than not been the best offensive player on the court for the Bulls. And, he is doing very well at the end of the seaosn, when you might expect an older to player to be losing some energy. For the last ten games, Boozer is scoring 18.9 PPG and grabbing 12.8 RPG. And his season stats are in line with his career averages.

His shooting percentage had tailed off a bit, which may reflect a lower percentage of shots at the rim, but he is still an excellent player. Among the 18 Duke players in the league, who would you rate ahead of Carlos? Kyrie, although he appears brittle?

I'll let you and others rate the contracts and the salary cap strategies. I rather expect to see Carlos in chicago next year to see if the return of Derrick Rose might possibly propel the Bulls to an unlikely championship.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

When I have watched the Bulls, Boozer has more often than not been the best offensive player on the court for the Bulls. And, he is doing very well at the end of the seaosn, when you might expect an older to player to be losing some energy. For the last ten games, Boozer is scoring 18.9 PPG and grabbing 12.8 RPG. And his season stats are in line with his career averages.

During this season, Boozer has indeed been one of our two best offensive players (Deng being the other candidate). That is more of a reflection on how truly awful the Bulls were offensively this year than it is a statement about how good Boozer was. When Noah and Rose are healthy, they are the two best offensive players on the team. And I think when Deng is healthy he's better too. But none of those three were healthy this year. So Boozer was competing with the corpses of Hamilton and Mohammad, the nearing corpse of Hinrich, the tenacious but somewhat limited Gibson, the somewhat green Butler, and a bunch of end-of-the-bench types.


His shooting percentage had tailed off a bit, which may reflect a lower percentage of shots at the rim, but he is still an excellent player. Among the 18 Duke players in the league, who would you rate ahead of Carlos? Kyrie, although he appears brittle?

Among the Duke guys, I'd say that (a healthy) Irving and (a healthy) Deng are better players, and I don't think it's that close. But again, that's more a statement about the quality of the other 15 Duke guys in the NBA than it is a reflection of how good Boozer is. Dunleavy and Henderson are very solid. Maggette and Brand have been destroyed by injuries. Singler, Redick, and Battier are nice role players. Smith, Duhon, Plumlee, Thomas, Randolph, McRoberts, Jones, and Rivers aren't even in the discussion.

And I'm not saying that Boozer is a bad player. Far from it. He's still, at times, a very productive offensive player. And without him there is no way this Bulls team comes close to the playoffs. But he is very overpaid for what he can give you.

And he is definitely on the downside of his career. His numbers this year are below his career averages across the board, and that career number includes his rookie year (when he averaged just 10 and 7.5). He's 31 and with a lot of injuries under his belt (which has robbed him of his athleticism). If he was making $8-10 million per year, he'd be absolutely worth it. But that extra $5-7 million per year is a BIG factor, especially in this era of the luxury tax penalties.

[Billy Dat]

After the completion of one game in each series, it was a shame that we only had 1 or 2 games that were interesting in the 4th quarter.

I watched some of the Heat v Bucks yesterday. It's fun to see Shane and Mike D. Jr., who I think are still very close friends off the court, compete against each other - let alone JJ being on the same squad. The Bucks are such an odd team. The coach played 10 players 10+ minutes yesterday, yet Ellis and Jennings took 50% of their overall shots. Since the JJ trade, they ended the year at a really poor 12-16. And they won 4 right after the trade which makes the last 25 or so look really bad. I am guessing JJ will be looking elsewhere after this season as the Bucks seem like a team with no identity aside from the volume shooting starting backcourt and a young shotblocking phenom in Larry "no flipping" Sanders.

I fully expect Miami, San Antonio, OKC to make quick work of their series. As a fan, I'd like the Knicks to make quick work of the Celtics. Otherwise, it would be nice to see the other 0-1 teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis) knot up these series to give us something to watch in the first round.

[CDu]

After the completion of one game in each series, it was a shame that we only had 1 or 2 games that were interesting in the 4th quarter.

I watched some of the Heat v Bucks yesterday. It's fun to see Shane and Mike D. Jr., who I think are still very close friends off the court, compete against each other - let alone JJ being on the same squad. The Bucks are such an odd team. The coach played 10 players 10+ minutes yesterday, yet Ellis and Jennings took 50% of their overall shots. Since the JJ trade, they ended the year at a really poor 12-16. And they won 4 right after the trade which makes the last 25 or so look really bad. I am guessing JJ will be looking elsewhere after this season as the Bucks seem like a team with no identity aside from the volume shooting starting backcourt and a young shotblocking phenom in Larry "no flipping" Sanders.

I fully expect Miami, San Antonio, OKC to make quick work of their series. As a fan, I'd like the Knicks to make quick work of the Celtics. Otherwise, it would be nice to see the other 0-1 teams (Atlanta, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis) knot up these series to give us something to watch in the first round.

Yeah, Redick really got hosed with that trade to Milwaukee. If he'd been traded to a legit contender in need of a shooter, he might have been able to latch on and find a niche that would get him well-paid on a contender. Instead, he got traded to a team that has two shoot-first players at guard and no post presence. So he won't compete for a title this year and he won't get showcased for his free agent period this summer. Just a bad situation.

I tend to agree with you on Miami, San Antonio, and OKC. I'd say that Brooklyn is also likely to make reasonably quick work of Chicago unless Noah somehow plays (and plays well) through his plantar fascia tear. The Knicks/Celtics series will probably be interesting. The Knicks should win it, but Boston is just scrappy enough (and still talented enough at key spots) to make it interesting.

[Starter]

I'll be honest: I know very little about how DRtg is calculated. But if DRtg suggests Boozer is a good defender, well, then I don't think too highly of the metric. Boozer is easily the worst defender of the Bulls' three regular bigs. He may still be a good defensive rebounder, but he regularly gets the easiest possible post assignment (Noah and Gibson always take the tougher matchup, regardless of position) and even then he still gets beaten. He's very slow (both in terms of straight-ahead speed and lateral movement) and can't jump, and he doesn't anticipate well defensively. It is a tribute to Thibs' gameplan abilities that Boozer's defensive liability isn't more regularly exploited.



I think this can't be stated enough. Boozer used to be just athletic enough that he could make you pay on a pick and roll. And if you bit on his pump fake, he could get to the rim and finish. But now? He is too slow and too lacking in vertical that he has trouble finishing in traffic and can't make you pay for overplaying his shot. So he shoots a TON of 15-18 footers (often in fadeaway fashion). He makes a decent percentage of them, but it definitely comes and goes.

He's simply not worth the contract he has (even adjusting for what "worth it" means in the NBA). He is a solid player, but he's paid to be a star player and he's just not nearly a star player anymore. If he had the type of deal that Gibson has ($8-9 million) he'd be a huge value. But he's the second-highest paid player on the team, and he's arguably the 4th/5th/6th best player on the team (depending upon how you feel about Gibson and Butler).

Basically, the Bulls are in a financial position where they're going to likely have to let Deng walk after next year so as to avoid the repeater tax penalty. And they'll still be over the cap at that point unless they amnesty Boozer. So after next year, they'll either lose Deng or amnesty Boozer (or both), and they still won't have enough cap space to add a big-time free agent. So they'll be stuck without Deng and/or Boozer, without sufficient cap space, and without two nice lottery picks with 1-2 years of experience.

Had they traded Deng and amnestied Boozer, this season would have stunk. But we'd enter the 2013-2014 season with Rose, Butler, 2 lottery picks, Noah, Gibson, and cap space to add another solid piece of the puzzle (not a star). Or following the 2014 season, we'd have enough cap space to add that other piece, and we'd likely be adding Mirotic from Europe. And Rose and Butler would be in their primes, and Noah and Gibson would still be on the right side of 30.

But, alas, the management either didn't have that foresight, or felt sure that Rose would be back (which might have given us a chance at a title had Noah not also gotten hurt), or was afraid to pay Boozer to play elsewhere (or all 3).

I agree with a lot of what you said. I remember we had some threads last year trying to figure out what the Bulls should do after the Rose injury, and I thought back then they should have amnestied Boozer and tanked for a better draft pick, then bring back Rose the following season and see what you have. Part of this is coming from the perspective of a Knicks fan who watched mediocre or worse teams for the last decade because they refused to tear everything down and rebuild until Donnie Walsh came on. Like, I know the East is kind of open after the Heat, but was it really worth having an above-average team, making the playoffs but then not getting Rose back and being a vulnerable team in the first round? Probably not, when they could have stockpiled other assets. (It's a shame that trade of Deng for the Warriors' No. 7 overall never came to fruition last year. Barnes went 7th, Drummond went 9th.) That said, if Rose comes back resembling the player he was before, and there's a good chance of that, building around Rose, Noah, Gibson and Butler isn't exactly a horrible start.

I'll be honest, as a self-loathing Knicks fan who despises the owner and front office, I'm still stunned this team is legit after they signed Jason Kidd and Camby to multiyear deals and have had Rasheed Wallace, Kurt Thomas and now Kenyon Martin playing relatively pivotal roles. Not to mention, Chandler predictably wore down big time and Amar'e's shot, as we all knew a year ago. And they're still pretty dangerous! I think it's a testament to just how transcendent Carmelo has been, now that he's no longer doing what he can to sandbag his coach. And J.R. Smith has been a revelation; I feel like he's playing by far the best ball of his career. He's always been enormously talented, but he's finally figured out how not to let his latent insanity get in the way of being a really good player. They'll beat Boston. I think they're deeper and better than Indiana, though that would not be an easy series at all. And I can't imagine they'd beat the Heat unless something happened to James.

[CDu]

I will say that this Bulls team is going nowhere this year... But the effort they put into defense is phenomenal. They aren't going to ever be cheated on that end of the floor. Just a clinic on how to gameplan and how to play hard. If only they had some offensive firepower.

[UrinalCake]

CDu, I understand what you're saying about how the Bulls could have handled their roster, and it makes perfect sense, but as a sports fan I just can't support the notion of tanking. I get why a team would do it, and I think the fans would understand and some of them would even be in favor of it because, like you, they can see the picture. But it just doesn't seem right and I would fully expect bad karma to hit any team that does that in the form of lottery ping pong balls never falling their way.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't be against amnestying Boozer or trading away Deng. Making roster moves that all but ensure more losses is one thing, kind of like what the Magic did after losing Howard. My beef is with the plan of intentionally losing games for a whole season. I could almost support the idea of a team that plays hard all season long, but then once they're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs then they start tanking. Almost.

Then of course, there's the other aspect of karma that could happen where the team of scrubs becomes a lovable band of misfits that winds up making the playoffs anyways (see Major League).

[Starter]

CDu, I understand what you're saying about how the Bulls could have handled their roster, and it makes perfect sense, but as a sports fan I just can't support the notion of tanking. I get why a team would do it, and I think the fans would understand and some of them would even be in favor of it because, like you, they can see the picture. But it just doesn't seem right and I would fully expect bad karma to hit any team that does that in the form of lottery ping pong balls never falling their way.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't be against amnestying Boozer or trading away Deng. Making roster moves that all but ensure more losses is one thing, kind of like what the Magic did after losing Howard. My beef is with the plan of intentionally losing games for a whole season. I could almost support the idea of a team that plays hard all season long, but then once they're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs then they start tanking. Almost.

Then of course, there's the other aspect of karma that could happen where the team of scrubs becomes a lovable band of misfits that winds up making the playoffs anyways (see Major League).

I mean, sometimes tanking a season just really works out. The Spurs didn't exactly hide that they held David Robinson out way longer than they had to, then they ended up with Tim Duncan and won 4 championships. Of course, Boston tried doing the same thing, and they ended up with Chauncey Billups -- before he got good -- and Ron Mercer. The Cavs pretty obviously tanked to try to get LeBron. (Less noticeably, teams tank games at the end of seasons all the time to set up preferred playoff matchups or simply to get healthy.)

But honestly, given the choice between long-term total awesomeness and short-term relative competitiveness/mediocrity, it's tantalizing to go for the gold. Any Spurs fan that complained that their team sucked in 1996-97 was placated with a dynasty over the next 15 years or so. And with no definitive reward, it's hard to blame any team for giving losing their best shot. Like, the lottery system is set up to prevent a team from guaranteeing with absolutely brutal play that it'll totally work out.

[COYS]

I mean, sometimes tanking a season just really works out. The Spurs didn't exactly hide that they held David Robinson out way longer than they had to, then they ended up with Tim Duncan and won 4 championships. Of course, Boston tried doing the same thing, and they ended up with Chauncey Billups -- before he got good -- and Ron Mercer. The Cavs pretty obviously tanked to try to get LeBron. (Less noticeably, teams tank games at the end of seasons all the time to set up preferred playoff matchups or simply to get healthy.)

But honestly, given the choice between long-term total awesomeness and short-term relative competitiveness/mediocrity, it's tantalizing to go for the gold. Any Spurs fan that complained that their team sucked in 1996-97 was placated with a dynasty over the next 15 years or so. And with no definitive reward, it's hard to blame any team for giving losing their best shot. Like, the lottery system is set up to prevent a team from guaranteeing with absolutely brutal play that it'll totally work out.

I agree with this. There's a fine line between tanking and smart management. Offloading expensive contracts that are essentially wasted on role players when there's no star to push the team over the top is probably smart management. I can't see how, if the Bulls had amnestied Boozer and traded Deng, that it would be the same as intentionally tanking. It seems like it would have been more of a moneyball-esque move to leverage player values in the best possible ways. On the other hand, if they think that Deng and Carlos will still be able to play at a high enough level to be role players on a championship team that features a fully healthy D-Rose, then that's a legitimate path, too.

As a Hawks fan, I'm excited about how Ferry has handled the team so far. He's offloaded bloated contracts on a team that was going to peak as a second-round playoff squad. He's replaced expensive role players with less expensive role players who have (almost) been able to match the production of the more expensive guys. He's set the team up financially to be able to add expensive stars if the opportunity presents itself or, if that doesn't happen through free-agency, build a team through the draft. He even managed to do that while keeping the team competitive. However, if the Hawks had fallen out of the playoffs this year, I don't think a single Atlanta fan would have viewed it as "tanking."

[CDu]

I mean, sometimes tanking a season just really works out. The Spurs didn't exactly hide that they held David Robinson out way longer than they had to, then they ended up with Tim Duncan and won 4 championships. Of course, Boston tried doing the same thing, and they ended up with Chauncey Billups -- before he got good -- and Ron Mercer. The Cavs pretty obviously tanked to try to get LeBron. (Less noticeably, teams tank games at the end of seasons all the time to set up preferred playoff matchups or simply to get healthy.)

But honestly, given the choice between long-term total awesomeness and short-term relative competitiveness/mediocrity, it's tantalizing to go for the gold. Any Spurs fan that complained that their team sucked in 1996-97 was placated with a dynasty over the next 15 years or so. And with no definitive reward, it's hard to blame any team for giving losing their best shot. Like, the lottery system is set up to prevent a team from guaranteeing with absolutely brutal play that it'll totally work out.


I agree with this. There's a fine line between tanking and smart management. Offloading expensive contracts that are essentially wasted on role players when there's no star to push the team over the top is probably smart management. I can't see how, if the Bulls had amnestied Boozer and traded Deng, that it would be the same as intentionally tanking. It seems like it would have been more of a moneyball-esque move to leverage player values in the best possible ways. On the other hand, if they think that Deng and Carlos will still be able to play at a high enough level to be role players on a championship team that features a fully healthy D-Rose, then that's a legitimate path, too.

As a Hawks fan, I'm excited about how Ferry has handled the team so far. He's offloaded bloated contracts on a team that was going to peak as a second-round playoff squad. He's replaced expensive role players with less expensive role players who have (almost) been able to match the production of the more expensive guys. He's set the team up financially to be able to add expensive stars if the opportunity presents itself or, if that doesn't happen through free-agency, build a team through the draft. He even managed to do that while keeping the team competitive. However, if the Hawks had fallen out of the playoffs this year, I don't think a single Atlanta fan would have viewed it as "tanking."

Exactly. It would be running a business the way businesses should be run: with the greatest long-term success in mind. If you feel your best window for success is now, then keep the roster together. If you feel the best window for success is in a few years, then revise your roster to put yourself in the best possible place for that upcoming window (which would mean trading Deng and amnestying Boozer).

And I'd have no problem with keeping Boozer and Deng except for the fact that Deng's contract is up after next year, and the Bulls are going to be so strapped financially that they likely won't be able to afford him. And Boozer's contract is up the year after that.

If both Boozer and Deng were locked up for 3-4 years (like Noah and Rose) and management felt that that core could win a title, then I'd be fine with keeping them. A 3-4 year window is about all you can reasonably consider in today's NBA market. So three years ago I was fully on board with the Rose/???/Deng/Boozer/Noah 4-5 year plan, assuming we could find a suitable SG. Unfortunately, we failed to find a SG for the year of that plan. We thought we had the solution in year 2 with Hamilton, but he has run out of gas. And even still, we had a shot until Rose and Noah got hurt in the playoffs.

So going into year 3 of the 4-5 year plan, I felt it was time to consider the future. Would it be better to try to ride it out this year and see if we could compete for 1-2 more years, or rebuild starting this year with next year and the 4-5 years thereafter being the window for success?

[Billy Dat]

Shav made a brief appearance at the end of the Knicks win over the Celtics...it was great to see him in an NBA Playoff game even if it was garbage time.

What is closest to the real reason the Knicks are up 2-0, the Knicks are playing well or the Celtics just suck?

Golden State v Denver is fun. I agree with those who think Curry is the best shooter in the NBA. Ty Lawson is really good. The Black Pidgeon is even making some plays.

[moonpie23]

the Celtics just suck!



fixed it for you....

[Billy Dat]

Another sign of basketball's globalization - a European, Marc Gasol, wins the NBA defensive player of the year. Viva Espana!

[Starter]

Shav made a brief appearance at the end of the Knicks win over the Celtics...it was great to see him in an NBA Playoff game even if it was garbage time.

What is closest to the real reason the Knicks are up 2-0, the Knicks are playing well or the Celtics just suck?

Golden State v Denver is fun. I agree with those who think Curry is the best shooter in the NBA. Ty Lawson is really good. The Black Pidgeon is even making some plays.

Billy, I think it's that Boston kinda stinks. Scoring under 50 points combined in the second half of these two games... With Chandler banged up, I can't think the Knicks' defense is THAT good. When Rondo went down, they should have traded Pierce and packed it in. They weren't beating Miami like this.

Barnes has crazy athleticism. He never really used his entire skill set at UNC. It'll be interesting to see if he can put it all together. And with Curry, I think everyone is finding out what Duke fans have known for years!

[Reilly]

Fun stat from basketball-reference.com: if I'm counting right, it looks like Dell and Steph Curry combined have 9 of the top 250 NBA seasons in history for 3-point FG percentage:

Dell with 24th, 191st, 200th, 209th, and 249th best seasons.
Steph with the 58th, 59th, 100th, and 138th best season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_season.html

[Billy Dat]

Billy, I think it's that Boston kinda stinks. Scoring under 50 points combined in the second half of these two games... With Chandler banged up, I can't think the Knicks' defense is THAT good. When Rondo went down, they should have traded Pierce and packed it in. They weren't beating Miami like this.

Indeed...and I assume that, like me, you could care less as long as the Knicks get the to next round. I'd like them to finish off Boston early, but I know I am in no position to hope for such an easy path. As for the Celtics, I think you have a good take on the situation. You know Doc is desperate when he is playing Jordan Crawford over Bradley. I was happy to see Melo make some really big shots when Boston was making their final run in the 4th. He hit two really tough contested jumpers to keep the differential around 9-11. I also think Felton has been very tough so far this series, as has, obviously, Kenyon Martin, let alone JR.


And with Curry, I think everyone is finding out what Duke fans have known for years!

Fun stat from basketball-reference.com: if I'm counting right, it looks like Dell and Steph Curry combined have 9 of the top 250 NBA seasons in history for 3-point FG percentag

Curry's 3s rip the nets so harshly that it feels like a torpedo descending from 1000 feet, and he needs roughly 1 inch of daylight to get it off. My goodness.

[JasonEvans]

Steve Blake tweaked his hammy last night for the Lakers. Steve Nash also has a bad hamstring, raising the possibility that they both may be unable to go or will be severely limited. Deep on the Lakers bench, but perhaps primed for some playoff playing time, is Duke's own Chris Duhon. Of course, Deadspin's take (http://deadspin.com/the-lakers-are-breaking-down-480738234) on this situation is always amusing.


After their top three guards, it's slim pickings. Darius Morris played 23 minutes last night, and should get the bulk of the work. Andrew Goudelock, who spent most of the year in the D-League, is next up. And then there's Chris Duhon, at which point a forfeit might be more respectable.

-Jason "prove 'em wrong, Chris!" Evans

[Billy Dat]

I watched some of the Heat v Bucks yesterday. It's fun to see Shane and Mike D. Jr., who I think are still very close friends off the court, compete against each other.

Looks like they are, indeed, still best friends, which is cool
http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/nba/miami-heat/story/Heat-Bucks-pits-best-friends-Battier-Dun?blockID=895157&feedID=3720

[UrinalCake]

Looks like they are, indeed, still best friends, which is cool

Wasn't there some friendly trash talk between them last year regarding who was better at Jeopardy?

[Billy Dat]

Wasn't there some friendly trash talk between them last year regarding who was better at Jeopardy?

Yes, read the article which mentions that, and includes a quote from JJ that he could beat both of them. They also seem to participate in some pretty cool fantasy sports wagers that go beyond the obvious set-ups.

[BigZ]

Chris Duhon time!!!. No kobe, no nash, no meeks, and no blake for LA.

[OldPhiKap]

Norman Chad tweet:

@NormanChad: Shane Battier just drew an offensive foul from J.J. Redick – Duke-on-Duke block/charge violence is a growing problem in the NBA.

[rsvman]

I find it kind of interesting that, just after all the down-playing of the importance of Boozer (and, to a lesser extent, Deng) on this board a few days ago, Boozer and Deng came up BIG in Chicago's win last night.

Boozer 22 points and 16 rebounds
Deng 21 points and 10 rebounds

[CDu]

I find it kind of interesting that, just after all the down-playing of the importance of Boozer (and, to a lesser extent, Deng) on this board a few days ago, Boozer and Deng came up BIG in Chicago's win last night.

Boozer 22 points and 16 rebounds
Deng 21 points and 10 rebounds

Firstly, you must have misinterpreted the discussion. I didn't downplay the importance of Boozer and (certainly not) Deng. Deng is EASILY my favorite player, and Boozer is at times really good. I just stated that Boozer is overpaid for his level of production. That doesn't mean he's not a very good player - he is. It doesn't mean he's not one of the best players on the Bulls - he is.

My entire discussion about trading Deng and amnestying Boozer was based on realizing the financial aspect of the Bulls' future. They are in the luxury tax, and when Deng (next year) and Boozer (the following year) become free agents, the Bulls are likely to have to let them walk for nothing. So that gives the Bulls a 1-2 year window (I'm writing off this season because Rose probably isn't coming back). Had they traded Deng (who had lottery pick trade value) and amnestied Boozer (and gotten out of his contract), they would have been able to add 2 lottery picks (i.e., talent at low cost) to go along with Rose, Noah, Gibson, Butler and (eventually) Mirotic. It would have sucked this year, but the long-term gain would be a team that could compete for the next 4-5 years (or more) without being luxury taxed out.

Instead, they kept Deng and Boozer, and now are committed to competing next year (in the luxury tax), probably letting Deng walk (and still being over the cap), and letting Boozer walk the following year and hoping to land a big-time free agent in his place. So they'd be in rebuild mode in two years minus two very cost-effective commodities.

Boozer played terrific basketball last night, and has played terrific basketball throughout the series. Deng shot 9-23 from the field, and the two combined for 7 turnovers. And remember that the Bulls are playing a team that isn't a great rebounding team and isn't a great defensive team, either. Don't get me wrong: they played key roles in the Bulls' win and (as a Bulls fan) I'm happy that they did. But let's not gloss over the not-so-good stats and let's not misstate my argument. I stand by the stance that (if the team had known this was a lost season) the Bulls should have amnestied Boozer and traded Deng for a lottery pick.

[Des Esseintes]

I stand by the stance that (if the team had known this was a lost season) the Bulls should have amnestied Boozer and traded Deng for a lottery pick.

Except that what you're calling a "lost season" might very well include a trip to the conference semi-finals with almost everything going wrong that could go wrong. I mean, the injuries beyond Rose could not be known in advance. If management thought the team was good enough to make the second round completely without Rose--a sound assessment, given that they very well might get there now after a cavalcade of injuries--was it an unreasonable thought that a 90% Rose could at least give them a chance at the Heat? And was it predictable that Rose would sit out the entire season? Near as I can tell, his rehab has been somewhat anomalous.

Even knowing all we know now, I'm not sure if 20/20 hindsight justifies tearing down the team. Say they make the second round and lose to the Heat in 5. How can that be called a lost season?

I understand chances to win a title are rare, but that cuts both ways. Given what they knew last year, would Bulls management have been doing the responsible thing blowing up a team with an outside shot at a title if Rose came back in time? The Bulls got unlucky that Rose's recovery has taken as long as it has. Sometimes you just get unlucky; it's not poor decision-making.

[Des Esseintes]

Yes, read the article which mentions that, and includes a quote from JJ that he could beat both of them. They also seem to participate in some pretty cool fantasy sports wagers that go beyond the obvious set-ups.

I wouldn't pay a lot of money, but I would pay some money to hear a Dunleavy impression of K voicemail counsel that's good enough to fool Shane.

[CDu]

Except that what you're calling a "lost season" might very well include a trip to the conference semi-finals with almost everything going wrong that could go wrong. I mean, the injuries beyond Rose could not be known in advance. If management thought the team was good enough to make the second round completely without Rose--a sound assessment, given that they very well might get there now after a cavalcade of injuries--was it an unreasonable thought that a 90% Rose could at least give them a chance at the Heat? And was it predictable that Rose would sit out the entire season? Near as I can tell, his rehab has been somewhat anomalous.

Even knowing all we know now, I'm not sure if 20/20 hindsight justifies tearing down the team. Say they make the second round and lose to the Heat in 5. How can that be called a lost season?

I understand chances to win a title are rare, but that cuts both ways. Given what they knew last year, would Bulls management have been doing the responsible thing blowing up a team with an outside shot at a title if Rose came back in time? The Bulls got unlucky that Rose's recovery has taken as long as it has. Sometimes you just get unlucky; it's not poor decision-making.

I specifically used the terms "in hindsight" and "if they had known" for a reason...

[Des Esseintes]

I specifically used the terms "in hindsight" and "if they had known" for a reason...

No doubt. If we were gifted with future-sight, most of would make pretty good decisions.

[FerryFor50]

Looks like JJ is not happy in the land of beer and cheese:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--thunder-guard-russell-westbrook-to-have-knee-surgery--return-this-season-uncertain-173113321.html

Also, Russ Westbrook out indefinitely:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/thunders-westbrook-needs-knee-surgery-165015437.html

Think Westbrook comes back before Derrick Rose?

[Starter]

The lateness of Rose's injury, I thought, set it apart. He was injured following the regular season. They've made great strides in how they fix and rehab injuries of this nature, but I think one can reasonably expect it to take at least 10-12 months to be ready to play again, depending on the severity of the injury. (There are of course exceptions. Imam Shumpert returned after about 9 months, but he's been a fraction of what he was before the injury. I expect him to improve next year. And it would be pointless to compare any other athlete to Adrian Peterson.) If I'm the Bulls, and my only real chance to attempt to win a title is to have Rose come back on schedule and with no setbacks for the start of the playoffs, I'd be very wary of relying on that at the expense of potentially setting my team up to succeed long-term. I do acknowledge it's a lot easier for me to say given my zero level of involvement.

[Des Esseintes]

The lateness of Rose's injury, I thought, set it apart. He was injured following the regular season. They've made great strides in how they fix and rehab injuries of this nature, but I think one can reasonably expect it to take at least 10-12 months to be ready to play again, depending on the severity of the injury. (There are of course exceptions. Imam Shumpert returned after about 9 months, but he's been a fraction of what he was before the injury. I expect him to improve next year. And it would be pointless to compare any other athlete to Adrian Peterson.) If I'm the Bulls, and my only real chance to attempt to win a title is to have Rose come back on schedule and with no setbacks for the start of the playoffs, I'd be very wary of relying on that at the expense of potentially setting my team up to succeed long-term. I do acknowledge it's a lot easier for me to say given my zero level of involvement.
That's all fair, but don't forget that burning this season by jettisoning Deng and Boozer means closing the title window for 2014 as well. While the longer-term return is potentially quite good, nothing is guaranteed. It seems dangerous to close a title window preemptively when so many championship teams have done so while lacking a major contributor for crucial stretches.

[CDu]

Wow. The Bulls/Nets game has been ridiculous. Bulls were down 109-95. After that, it's been the Nate Robinson show. He scored 23 in the 4th and has 4 points and several key plays in the overtime period. Bulls now lead 121-119 with 2 seconds left. Lil' Nate's last 8 minutes of this game have been completely absurd. Then Joe Johnson hits a runner to send it to a second overtime.

[BD80]

That's all fair, but don't forget that burning this season by jettisoning Deng and Boozer means closing the title window for 2014 as well. While the longer-term return is potentially quite good, nothing is guaranteed. It seems dangerous to close a title window preemptively when so many championship teams have done so while lacking a major contributor for crucial stretches.

Also, blowing up the Bulls last summer would have yielded a higher pick in this draft. So what?

And, no matter how badly the Bulls tanked, they wouldn't have been at the very top of the draft board.

[CDu]

Also, blowing up the Bulls last summer would have yielded a higher pick in this draft. So what?

So you get a second lottery pick. Draft picks (especially the way the Bulls have drafted) are the most efficient way to acquire talent. So you acquire a third talented, young, inexpensive player and you have the cap space to complement that (and Rose, Noah, and Gibson) with a star for the next several years.


And, no matter how badly the Bulls tanked, they wouldn't have been at the very top of the draft board.

Huh??? How could you possibly know this? With the lottery, who knows where the Bulls would have been on the draft board?

[Starter]

Listen, who needs Rose when you have Krytpo-Nate?

Easily the best game of the playoffs so far.

[BD80]

So you get a second lottery pick. Draft picks (especially the way the Bulls have drafted) are the most efficient way to acquire talent. So you acquire a third talented, young, inexpensive player and you have the cap space to complement that (and Rose, Noah, and Gibson) with a star for the next several years.



Huh??? How could you possibly know this? With the lottery, who knows where the Bulls would have been on the draft board?

Orlando won 20 games, Charlotte 21, and Cleveland 24. The Bulls won 45. Unless they brought in you and I to replace Boozer and Deng, they weren't going to out-tank those teams. The lottery is heavily weighted to the bottom three, and the bottom three are guaranteed top 6 picks.

Which players on this year's draft board fits the rebuilding plan? What chance is there that the Bulls would have had a chance to get them?

[Starter]

Orlando won 20 games, Charlotte 21, and Cleveland 24. The Bulls won 45. Unless they brought in you and I to replace Boozer and Deng, they weren't going to out-tank those teams. The lottery is heavily weighted to the bottom three, and the bottom three are guaranteed top 6 picks.

Which players on this year's draft board fits the rebuilding plan? What chance is there that the Bulls would have had a chance to get them?

They would have been pretty terrible. Deng led the NBA in minutes; they leaned heavily on him. Boozer's 16-10 doesn't grow on trees, and they probably would have had to resort to a lot more Nazr Mohammed than anyone would ever want to see. Don't forget that if they're trying to tank, they probably don't still play Noah until his foot falls off. (Don't get me wrong, he was great despite being all banged up, but if you're not really playing for anything, I'd imagine he would have played a lot more sparingly given his chronic plantar fasciitis.)

That said, they'd have still had Nate Robinson. So anything is possible!

I feel like Oladipo, MCW or Otto Porter would have fit in nicely with the Bulls. Or with anyone, for that matter.

[CDu]

Orlando won 20 games, Charlotte 21, and Cleveland 24. The Bulls won 45. Unless they brought in you and I to replace Boozer and Deng, they weren't going to out-tank those teams. The lottery is heavily weighted to the bottom three, and the bottom three are guaranteed top 6 picks.

You don't think that a team without Deng, Rose, and Boozer would have been in the hunt for 20 wins? I mean, Noah, Gibson, and Butler are talented, but after them the dropoff in talent is REALLY steep. I think they'd have been in the hunt.

And even if the Bulls were only the 6th/7th-worst team, that would put them very much in the hunt for a top-3 spot. The point I was making was that you have no idea where the Bulls would be drafting in such a scenario. Would they likely be in the top-3? Maybe not. But you just never know.


Which players on this year's draft board fits the rebuilding plan? What chance is there that the Bulls would have had a chance to get them?

That's hard to answer, because in that hypothetical we'd presumably have one of the pieces in place via last year's draft. But the pieces that they could use would be a big man who can score inside, a SG, and a SF. They'd have two good defenders at PF/C in Gibson/Noah, but limited shooting/scoring ability and limited post scoring.

So, among this year's class, guys like McLemore, Zeller, Oladipo, Porter, Len, Carter-Williams (could pair nicely with Rose at guard), and Muhammad fit the bill. Odds are pretty good that a mid-lottery pick would net a choice of at least one of those guys.

[Duvall]

Have to wonder how Rose and Noah would feel about the Bulls lighting a couple of seasons on fire for a rebuild. They do get to be free agents eventually.

[CDu]

Have to wonder how Rose and Noah would feel about the Bulls lighting a couple of seasons on fire for a rebuild. They do get to be free agents eventually.

Neither is a free agent for several more years. The idea would be that the team would get better quickly and this tanked season would be forgotten as a deeper/more talented Bulls team challenged for titles again in the future. Sure, it's a potential concern. But there is a LOT of time to make amends on that issue.

[sagegrouse]

Exactly. It would be running a business the way businesses should be run: with the greatest long-term success in mind. If you feel your best window for success is now, then keep the roster together. If you feel the best window for success is in a few years, then revise your roster to put yourself in the best possible place for that upcoming window (which would mean trading Deng and amnestying Boozer).

And I'd have no problem with keeping Boozer and Deng except for the fact that Deng's contract is up after next year, and the Bulls are going to be so strapped financially that they likely won't be able to afford him. And Boozer's contract is up the year after that.

If both Boozer and Deng were locked up for 3-4 years (like Noah and Rose) and management felt that that core could win a title, then I'd be fine with keeping them. A 3-4 year window is about all you can reasonably consider in today's NBA market. So three years ago I was fully on board with the Rose/???/Deng/Boozer/Noah 4-5 year plan, assuming we could find a suitable SG. Unfortunately, we failed to find a SG for the year of that plan. We thought we had the solution in year 2 with Hamilton, but he has run out of gas. And even still, we had a shot until Rose and Noah got hurt in the playoffs.

So going into year 3 of the 4-5 year plan, I felt it was time to consider the future. Would it be better to try to ride it out this year and see if we could compete for 1-2 more years, or rebuild starting this year with next year and the 4-5 years thereafter being the window for success?

CDu, as a regular here, you are entitled to your opinion and your intense feelings about the home team.

I disagree with you on two counts.

(1) That tanking for a couple of years to win big in the long run is DEFINITELY NOT "the way businesses should be run." In every business I know, you set targets for improvement year after year and try to stay on or get ahead of the path. I'll accept that the NBA is a different kind of business, but you didn't say that. I don't know any kind of business, product or service, that intentionally did poorly in the short run to position for long-run success. Even a company heavily dependent on product development, which needs to invest in R&D, tries to make its numbers -- the banks require it, the owners (private or public) demand it, and the employees are a lot happier (and better paid) working for a successful company.

In the NBA, throwing a winning franchise into the lake in order to get better positioned, it seems to me, breaks a covenant with the fans, the remaining players, and the coaches and sounds like bad business. And, it ain't that easy, given the lottery, the uncertainty of draft picks, and the distressing truth that professional athletes on a team whose most highly paid players are gone may rise up and win a whole bunch of games.

(2) That Boozer should be amnestied. You have said elsewhere in the thread that he's a good player but not worth what the Bulls are playing him. Well, as we used to say in the Pentagon, "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Boozer, especially the last two months, has been an outstanding NBA player. And, if his defense is so bad, why are the Bulls seemingly the best defensive team around? You could easily spend the same money on another player or players and get far less production. So, based, on what I have seen, I would keep Boozer.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

(1) That tanking for a couple of years to win big in the long run is DEFINITELY NOT "the way businesses should be run." In every business I know, you set targets for improvement year after year and try to stay on or get ahead of the path. I'll accept that the NBA is a different kind of business, but you didn't say that. I don't know any kind of business, product or service, that intentionally did poorly in the short run to position for long-run success. Even a company heavily dependent on product development, which needs to invest in R&D, tries to make its numbers -- the banks require it, the owners (private or public) demand it, and the employees are a lot happier (and better paid) working for a successful company.

Fine. It's the way a sports business should be run. That should have been a given since we're talking about a sports business, after all.


(2) That Boozer should be amnestied. You have said elsewhere in the thread that he's a good player but not worth what the Bulls are playing him. Well, as we used to say in the Pentagon, "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Boozer, especially the last two months, has been an outstanding NBA player. And, if his defense is so bad, why are the Bulls seemingly the best defensive team around? You could easily spend the same money on another player or players and get far less production. So, based, on what I have seen, I would keep Boozer.

Several things I disagree with in this post.

First, in the NBA, having overpaid players limits your flexibility as a franchise. Overpaying "the good" gets you mired in mediocrity. That's specifically what I'm discussing here: avoiding mediocrity which is the death knell of championship pushes.

Second, are you seriously arguing that a team's defense can't overcome one bad defender? The Bulls defense is great because Noah and Gibson are terrific inside, Hinrich, Butler, and Deng are terrific outside, and Thibs is a genius at gameplanning.

Third, while you're absolutely right that one could spend the same money on another player and get far less production, you could also pay the same amount of money (or less) and get more production. And I'd argue that the latter is more likely than the former (GMs don't usually spend $15 million on unproductive players).

[theAlaskanBear]

Fine. It's the way a sports business should be run. That should have been a given since we're talking about a sports business, after all.



Several things I disagree with in this post.

First, in the NBA, having overpaid players limits your flexibility as a franchise. Overpaying "the good" gets you mired in mediocrity. That's specifically what I'm discussing here: avoiding mediocrity which is the death knell of championship pushes.

Second, are you seriously arguing that a team's defense can't overcome one bad defender? The Bulls defense is great because Noah and Gibson are terrific inside, Hinrich, Butler, and Deng are terrific outside, and Thibs is a genius at gameplanning.

Third, while you're absolutely right that one could spend the same money on another player and get far less production, you could also pay the same amount of money (or less) and get more production. And I'd argue that the latter is more likely than the former (GMs don't usually spend $15 million on unproductive players).

And for every Oklahoma City success story (although they have yet to win...and wont this year with injury) there are a half-dozen more Charlottes, Sacramentos, Timberwolves for whom losing does nothing but engender more losing. Boozer is still a very productive player, and nothing is guaranteed in this league. I am tired of seeing this argument hashed over again and again. You can't always wait for the perfect situation to come along to go and win, because I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. happens, like the Rose injury. The Bulls tanked for the better part of a decade before getting it together. People are so quick to "grass is greener". CDu I love your voice and opinion, and you know what you are talking about...but I hate this idea that "losing to win the draft" is portrayed as a good idea.

Look at all the NBA finals winners since 2000...really only one of those teams built through the draft (the Spurs) and they did so by exploiting the under-evaluation of foreign players, and getting so incredibly lukcy with the David Robinson injury year. The Lakers rise didnt involve tanking -- signed shaq, traded for Pau, lots of trades and free agent signings. The same with Boston. The same with the Heat. The same with the Pistons. None of those teams were primarily "built through the draft", and the one example that did -- the Spurs, they also consistently won and had low draft picks....they just won the lottery one year.

I think a lot of about asymmetric information and economy and choice, and the role it plays in our lives...in sports, you overpay to sign players because they have a track record...the book is in, so to speak. You overpay and are trading dollars for the comfort and consistency of a Carlos Boozer. In many cases knowing what player is going to do is worth the extra dough because you can better utilize and fit them into a team. When you are trying to take that next step to perennial contender, you cant do it through the draft, unless you get lucky (or exploit asymmetric info on foreign players...harder to do now). There just are too many unknowns...you don't know if you will get the pick you want, if the draft has the "franchise changing talent" (not all do) if the person you target in the draft will fall to you, if that person will in fact be the player you project him/her to be.

Until the Thunder prove they can win a championship, and then other franchises building through the draft start winning so the Thunder are not an outlier....then I will consider throwing away a top-3/4 EC team to have a better chance in the draft.

Maybe you are right, CDu, and the new CBA is a paradigm shift in the NBA, that the luxury taxes are too damaging to build good teams through signings and trades....but I will wait for proof.

[Starter]

In terms of short term thinking, check out the Nets. They're in serious danger of losing to the same Bulls team we're debating if they should have tanked it. Now the Nets desperately wanted to have a contender to stimulate buzz for their first year at Barclays, but rather than being patient, they mortgaged the future by acquiring Joe Johnson's massive contract and declining game, plus Gerald Wallace. The pick they traded for Wallace would have selected Damian Lillard.

I know plenty of Nets fans. And none of them would have traded for moderate short term success at the expense of long term solvency and a cogent plan going forward. The Nets were probably better in the short term with the guys they got -- though maybe not, since Wallace kinda stinks now and Lillard is awesome. But they're the perfect example of playing for now being a dangerous proposition. Things will get worse before they get better.

The Spurs are progressive in so many ways. Duncan is a marvel, for sure. But they also shrewdly picked international guys like Parker, Ginobili and Splitter. They traded a solid veteran in George Hill for Kahwi Leonard, who looks like a future star. And they identified an underutilized talent in Danny Green. They obviously got really lucky with Duncan, but they continually figure out the best ways to keep their blueprint fresh and succeed with what they put around him. Nobody does it better.

[sagegrouse]

Fine. It's the way a sports business should be run. That should have been a given since we're talking about a sports business, after all.



Several things I disagree with in this post.

First, in the NBA, having overpaid players limits your flexibility as a franchise. Overpaying "the good" gets you mired in mediocrity. That's specifically what I'm discussing here: avoiding mediocrity which is the death knell of championship pushes.

Second, are you seriously arguing that a team's defense can't overcome one bad defender? The Bulls defense is great because Noah and Gibson are terrific inside, Hinrich, Butler, and Deng are terrific outside, and Thibs is a genius at gameplanning.

Third, while you're absolutely right that one could spend the same money on another player and get far less production, you could also pay the same amount of money (or less) and get more production. And I'd argue that the latter is more likely than the former (GMs don't usually spend $15 million on unproductive players).

Easy, there. You are the one advocating blowing up a winning team. It's not the way businesses are run. And, can you give me one single example of any owner who blew up a winning team in order to get a perfect team? I can't, although I can't claim to have studied the subject. Now, if you can't, you shouldn't wonder that a lot of people disagree with you -- whether it's a business, a sports team, or an NBA franchise.

On your points about Boozer: he's had a very good season. I would be interested in all the stats of players at his salary level. But, even if he were below average, I think kicking him off the team with an amnesty is a pretty nutty idea. Do you think it's a good business decision to eat $15 million through amnesty because someone else may be slightly better? That doesn't sound like any sports owner (or business leader) I have heard of.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

Easy, there. You are the one advocating blowing up a winning team. It's not the way businesses are run. And, can you give me one single example of any owner who blew up a winning team in order to get a perfect team? I can't, although I can't claim to have studied the subject. Now, if you can't, you shouldn't wonder that a lot of people disagree with you -- whether it's a business, a sports team, or an NBA franchise.

Where did I say "blow up a winning team in order to get a perfect team?" I said "blow up a mediocre team this year to try to ensure a 4-5 year window of opportunity starting next year rather than locking into only a 1-2 year window." There are lots of teams over the years that have traded away even stars nearing the end of their contracts in order to try to position themselves for future success. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But the idea as it relates to the Bulls is as follows:
1. this season (with Rose - at best - not being at full strength even by the playoffs) is a lost season from a contender perspective
2. the new collective bargaining agreement makes it VERY punitive to stay in the luxury tax
3. the Bulls franchise is notorious for not wanting to overspend (i.e., they are almost guaranteed to be letting Deng walk after next year and Boozer after the following year)
4. because of the above information, the Bulls would have just a mediocre year this year and one shot at contending next year

If they were to trade Deng and amnesty Boozer, they'd stink this year. But next year they'd be in position (both financially and talent-wise) to reload. And they'd extend their window for 3-4 more years by doing so.


On your points about Boozer: he's had a very good season. I would be interested in all the stats of players at his salary level. But, even if he were below average, I think kicking him off the team with an amnesty is a pretty nutty idea. Do you think it's a good business decision to eat $15 million through amnesty because someone else may be slightly better? That doesn't sound like any sports owner (or business leader) I have heard of.

You clearly seem to be missing the point. I'm not saying the Bulls would necessarily find someone slightly better than Boozer. I'm saying they could find someone much more cost-effective. With the new fiscal landscape of the NBA, cost-effectiveness is going to become more and more important. For Boozer's and Deng's salaries they could add two lottery picks plus Mirotic plus a mid-level star and keep them for the next several years.

As for your comment about players at Boozer's salary, he's the 22nd highest-paid player in the league right now. Guys ahead of him include Kobe, LeBron, Rose, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Durant, Anthony, Howard, Pau Gasol, Pierce, Deron Williams, Nowitzki, and Randolph. I'd take all of them over Boozer. Others include injured former stars like Brand, Rashard Lewis, Arenas, Roy, Stoudemire, and Bynum. Only Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay would be less cost-effective among the healthy bodies. Guys who are similarly-to-slightly-lower-priced than Boozer, I'd prefer Jefferson, Marc Gasol, Ginobili, Hibbert (maybe), Love, Brook Lopez, Horford, Noah, Harden, David Lee, Duncan, Tony Parker, Aldridge, Westbrook, etc.

[sagegrouse]

Where did I say "blow up a winning team in order to get a perfect team?" I said "blow up a mediocre team this year to try to ensure a 4-5 year window of opportunity starting next year rather than locking into only a 1-2 year window." There are lots of teams over the years that have traded away even stars nearing the end of their contracts in order to try to position themselves for future success. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

You haven't given one single example of a playoff team jettisoning two of its best players in order to improve in a couple of years. It doesn't happen. It hasn't happened, and it won't happen to the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls are as "cheap" as you say, why would they release Boozer as an amnesty player.




You clearly seem to be missing the point. I'm not saying the Bulls would necessarily find someone slightly better than Boozer. I'm saying they could find someone much more cost-effective. With the new fiscal landscape of the NBA, cost-effectiveness is going to become more and more important. For Boozer's and Deng's salaries they could add two lottery picks plus Mirotic plus a mid-level star and keep them for the next several years.

I don't think I need a lecture on cost effectiveness. More cost-effective, for someone near a max salary, usually means someone better. Or, more than one player with the same combined salary who are, counted together more effective than Boozer and whoever else is releasted. It's not necessarily easy 'cuz Boozer's pretty good.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

You haven't given one single example of a playoff team jettisoning two of its best players in order to improve in a couple of years. It doesn't happen. It hasn't happened, and it won't happen to the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls are as "cheap" as you say, why would they release Boozer as an amnesty player.

I haven't done it because I'm not interested in putting forth the effort. I'm quite sure a team has traded its 3rd and 4th best players before.

The Bulls are definitely cheap. But they've also definitely paid players ~$10 million per year not to play (Tim Thomas being the example).


I don't think I need a lecture on cost effectiveness. More cost-effective, for someone near a max salary, usually means someone better. Or more than one player with the same combined salary who are, counted together, more effective than Boozer and whoever else is released. It's not necessarily easy 'cuz Boozer's pretty good.

The latter of those two options was my suggestion. Given the salary structure of the NBA (where lottery pick rookies are by far the most cost-effective players), getting two lottery picks, adding the rookie Mirotic, and adding another star would cost about as much as it would cost to have Deng and Boozer. And the Bulls could keep those guys for 4-5 years. I'd say the odds are good that 2 lottery picks, one free agent acquisition, and Mirotic will combine to be better than Boozer and Deng. And instead of having those two for 2 years, they'd have the 4 guys for 4-5 years.

[Duvall]

The latter of those two options was my suggestion. Given the salary structure of the NBA (where lottery pick rookies are by far the most cost-effective players), getting two lottery picks, adding the rookie Mirotic, and adding another star would cost about as much as it would cost to have Deng and Boozer. And the Bulls could keep those guys for 4-5 years. I'd say the odds are good that 2 lottery picks, one free agent acquisition, and Mirotic will combine to be better than Boozer and Deng. And instead of having those two for 2 years, they'd have the 4 guys for 4-5 years.

That assumes that the Bulls' ability to attract quality free agents would not be affected by a stretch of tanking. "Sign with the Bulls - we probably won't choose to be deliberately terrible during your time here, but you know, no guarantees."

What's the hit rate on lottery picks, anyway? The rate at which lottery picks become All-Stars or near All-Stars seems like it should be a knowable fact.

[CDu]

That assumes that the Bulls' ability to attract quality free agents would not be affected by a stretch of tanking. "Sign with the Bulls - we probably won't choose to be deliberately terrible during your time here, but you know, no guarantees."

Just takes one. The Bulls don't need to have them all. And with Rose (once healthy again) and Noah (ditto) already locked up for several years, the concern about tanking is minimized. The only reason I was discussing tanking was because of the incredibly unfortunate timing of Rose's injury (which coincides with one of the last 2 seasons the Bulls will have Deng). It is a very unique situation, hence my somewhat unorthodox suggestion.


What's the hit rate on lottery picks, anyway? The rate at which lottery picks become All-Stars or near All-Stars seems like it should be a knowable fact.

For the Bulls? Pretty darn high. Their lottery picks over the past 10 years were Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Noah, Tyrus Thomas, and Derrick Rose. All but Thomas turned out pretty good.

[InSpades]

I would really really like to see Rose come back for the 2nd playoff series (should the Bulls advance... which seems likely after today). Any chance?

[CDu]

I would really really like to see Rose come back for the 2nd playoff series (should the Bulls advance... which seems likely after today). Any chance?

I would also love to see it, but I would say the chances of it happening are pretty low.

[Starter]

Good effort by the Celtics to prevent the Knicks from closing out the series in their building. I can't imagine it goes past Game 5, given that J.R. Smith will be available and Carmelo probably will shoot a little better than 10-for-35. Tyson Chandler, by the way, is tremendous. He gets his hand on every single loose ball, creating countless second opportunities. His effort level is far and away above everyone else on the court.

[moonpie23]

i hope it goes 7 games with multiple ot games.......maybe they could both lose...

[CoachJ10]

With all the focus on "flopping" in the NBA...Paul Pierce must be glad he is near the end of this career. No one has made absurd theatrics apart of his offensive repertoire more than him. Hakeem had the dream shake, Kareem had the skyhook, Jordan the dagger J...Pierce has the Flail...

[CDu]

Well, last night's basketball didn't disappoint. Two good games between 4 teams giving it their all. The Warriors trailed for much of the first half before exploding in the 3rd to take a big lead. They hung on to eliminate the Nuggets.

In the earlier game, the Nets hung on to slight lead for most of the game, ultimately winning by 3. But it was the Bulls who impressed most. They entered this series shorthanded with Rose out and Deng, Noah, and Gibson nursing injuries (to the degree that Noah wasn't even certain to be available). They've only gotten less healthy since. Hinrich has missed both game 5 and 6 due to a calf injury he suffered during his 60 minute effort in the game 4 triple OT win. Deng missed game 6 with some viral condition. Gibson and Nate Robinson played despite also sick (Robinson was throwing up during timeouts). Despite playing with only 6 of their regulars (and no PG or SF), the Bulls threw everything they had at the Nets. Noah and his bad foot were amazing (14 points, 15 rebounds, 5 blocks, 5 assists in 43 minutes!). Belinelli and Robinson played as well as could be expected (combining for 40 points). Belinelli and Butler sat for a combined 2 minutes, and Robinson (despite vomiting during the game) played 42 minutes. All 5 starters had at least 14 points.

Ultimately, it was all for naught, as the Bulls just couldn't quite get over the hump. I suspect that this was their shot. I'll be surprised if Hinrich is ready to go for Game 7, and on the road I don't know that the Bulls can overcome that hit to their depth at PG/defense. I also don't know how healthy Deng, Gibson, or Robinson will be. And who knows if Noah's foot will remain attached after playing 43 all-out minutes last night? If that was the last glimmer of hope, I have nothing but praise for the way this team has fought. They've been undermanned all season, but they haven't let that stop them from competing. There are certainly more skilled teams, but nobody is going to give more effort (on both ends). It's just a shame that they've had so many injuries to deal with this year. At full strength, who knows?

[rsvman]

As an infectious diseases physician, I'd say the likelihood of a Chicago victory is pretty low. The team members were likely suffering from a norovirus infection. Noroviruses are highly contagious, with an incubation period of about 19-48 hours. The players suffering at last night's game will likely be feeling better by the tip-off of the next game, but if one of the players was vomiting on the sidelines during the game, there's a pretty good chance that several more players will be sick by then.

If there's a plus side for Chicago fans, it is possible that some of the Brooklyn players may also become infected via the ball.

It will be interesting to see what happens, but I'd give Chicago about a 15% chance of winning, at best (unless they managed to infect Deron Williams).

[CDu]

As an infectious diseases physician, I'd say the likelihood of a Chicago victory is pretty low. The team members were likely suffering from a norovirus infection. Noroviruses are highly contagious, with an incubation period of about 19-48 hours. The players suffering at last night's game will likely be feeling better by the tip-off of the next game, but if one of the players was vomiting on the sidelines during the game, there's a pretty good chance that several more players will be sick by then.

If there's a plus side for Chicago fans, it is possible that some of the Brooklyn players may also become infected via the ball.

It will be interesting to see what happens, but I'd give Chicago about a 15% chance of winning, at best (unless they managed to infect Deron Williams).

Yeah, I suspect you're right. My only hope is that the Bulls will have recovered by Saturday night. Or, as you said, that the virus will have spread to the Nets (though I'd feel bad for the Nets in that case).

In any case, without Hinrich (and I'll be surprised if he's able to play) or Rose (even less likely), and with the injuries to Noah and Gibson, I don't think the Bulls can win in Brooklyn if both sides are virus-free. It's just asking too much of a team to play without a PG and undermanned on both the perimeter and in the post.

Still, the Bulls are a crazy team, and the Nets aren't very good. So who knows?

[Troublemaker]

Well, last night's basketball didn't disappoint. Two good games between 4 teams giving it their all. The Warriors trailed for much of the first half before exploding in the 3rd to take a big lead. They hung on to eliminate the Nuggets.

In the earlier game, the Nets hung on to slight lead for most of the game, ultimately winning by 3. But it was the Bulls who impressed most. They entered this series shorthanded with Rose out and Deng, Noah, and Gibson nursing injuries (to the degree that Noah wasn't even certain to be available). They've only gotten less healthy since. Hinrich has missed both game 5 and 6 due to a calf injury he suffered during his 60 minute effort in the game 4 triple OT win. Deng missed game 6 with some viral condition. Gibson and Nate Robinson played despite also sick (Robinson was throwing up during timeouts). Despite playing with only 6 of their regulars (and no PG or SF), the Bulls threw everything they had at the Nets. Noah and his bad foot were amazing (14 points, 15 rebounds, 5 blocks, 5 assists in 43 minutes!). Belinelli and Robinson played as well as could be expected (combining for 40 points). Belinelli and Butler sat for a combined 2 minutes, and Robinson (despite vomiting during the game) played 42 minutes. All 5 starters had at least 14 points.

Ultimately, it was all for naught, as the Bulls just couldn't quite get over the hump. I suspect that this was their shot. I'll be surprised if Hinrich is ready to go for Game 7, and on the road I don't know that the Bulls can overcome that hit to their depth at PG/defense. I also don't know how healthy Deng, Gibson, or Robinson will be. And who knows if Noah's foot will remain attached after playing 43 all-out minutes last night? If that was the last glimmer of hope, I have nothing but praise for the way this team has fought. They've been undermanned all season, but they haven't let that stop them from competing. There are certainly more skilled teams, but nobody is going to give more effort (on both ends). It's just a shame that they've had so many injuries to deal with this year. At full strength, who knows?

The Bulls have definitely put in an admirable effort so far. I would say, factoring in injury, if any of DWilliams, Lopez, or JJohnson were on the Bulls, he would be Chicago's best player. So to be 3-3 with all those injuries and illnesses and against an opponent with the 3 best players on the court, that is some hustle.

[CDu]

The Bulls have definitely put in an admirable effort so far. I would say, factoring in injury, if any of DWilliams, Lopez, or JJohnson were on the Bulls, he would be Chicago's best player. So to be 3-3 with all those injuries and illnesses and against an opponent with the 3 best players on the court, that is some hustle.

I agree with this with one caveat. Joe Johnson is playing with plantar fasciitis. As such, he's nowhere near 100% (like Noah). When he's at 100% (and assuming that Noah and Deng are hurt), I agree that the Nets have the 3 best players in the series. As is? It's hard to say whether the injured Johnson makes that cut. He hasn't played as well as, say, Boozer, in this series.

Still, I'd agree with the statement that the Nets have 3 of the 4 best players (and clearly the two best) when considering all the injuries. So the overall point remains accurate: the Bulls have pushed the Nets to near elimination on grit and hustle.

[luvdahops]

I agree with this with one caveat. Joe Johnson is playing with plantar fasciitis. As such, he's nowhere near 100% (like Noah). When he's at 100% (and assuming that Noah and Deng are hurt), I agree that the Nets have the 3 best players in the series. As is? It's hard to say whether the injured Johnson makes that cut. He hasn't played as well as, say, Boozer, in this series.

Still, I'd agree with the statement that the Nets have 3 of the 4 best players (and clearly the two best) when considering all the injuries. So the overall point remains accurate: the Bulls have pushed the Nets to near elimination on grit and hustle.

Generally agree, although I would make the point that the Nets have a fairly odd roster, and the drop-off after the Big 3 is quite severe. They have 4 guys in their regular rotation (Evans, Wallace, Humphries and Bogans, who admittedly has not played much against the Bulls but averaged 19mpg during the regular season) who couldn't score 20 points if they were locked in the gym by themselves. Stackhouse is many, many years past his prime, and no longer even a decent role player. Brooks has some talent but seems to have spent the year in PJ's doghouse. Blatche (talented but a flake) and Watson are solid enough subs, but neither is very consistent game-in, game-out.

I would much rather have the Bulls 4-8 (Butler, Hinrich, Robinson, Gibson and Bellinelli).

[CDu]

Generally agree, although I would make the point that the Nets have a fairly odd roster, and the drop-off after the Big 3 is quite severe. They have 4 guys in their regular rotation (Evans, Wallace, Humphries and Bogans, who admittedly has not played much against the Bulls but averaged 19mpg during the regular season) who couldn't score 20 points if they were locked in the gym by themselves. Stackhouse is many, many years past his prime, and no longer even a decent role player. Brooks has some talent but seems to have spent the year in PJ's doghouse. Blatche (talented but a flake) and Watson are solid enough subs, but neither is very consistent game-in, game-out.

I would much rather have the Bulls 4-8 (Butler, Hinrich, Robinson, Gibson and Bellinelli).

I disagree on Humphries. He can definitely score. The two things he brings to the table are good shooting and good rebounding. He's no Brook Lopez, but he's a very capable scorer (comparable in skill to Blatche). Humphries has generally played well in his limited time in the series. For whatever reason (probably defensive purposes?) Humphries has gotten very few minutes (in favor of Blatche and Evans).

The lack of depth is definitely an issue, but less so when you consider (a) how much rest is available between playoff games (minimizing the need for depth) and (b) how much the Bulls are hurting. Right now, Deng has not been much more effective than Wallace (shooting just 38% overall and just 1-18 from 3, and missing Game 6 altogether). Hinrich was terrific in games 2-4, but has missed all of games 5 and 6. Gibson has been hurt and fairly unproductive the entire series (and was sick for Game 6).

Again, if everyone was fully healthy (ignoring Rose, who hasn't played all year), I'd take Williams, Lopez, and Johnson, and it wouldn't be all that close. After that? I'd take Noah, Deng, and Boozer, and again it wouldn't be all that close. I would take Butler, Gibson, and Blatche after that. I'd put Hinrich and Wallace in the same bucket. Then Watson and Robinson (though Robinson's ridiculous success in this series has been the difference). Then maybe Evans. Then, you're getting into the scrubs.

But again, so many of the Bulls are playing at far less than 100% (or not playing at all) that I'm not sure I'd keep that order. It's just been an impressive display of effort, sparked by unexpectedly good contributions from guys like Robinson, Belinelli, and Mohammad.

[luvdahops]

I disagree on Humphries. He can definitely score. The two things he brings to the table are good shooting and good rebounding. He's no Brook Lopez, but he's a very capable scorer (comparable in skill to Blatche). Humphries has generally played well in his limited time in the series. For whatever reason (probably defensive purposes?) Humphries has gotten very few minutes (in favor of Blatche and Evans).

The lack of depth is definitely an issue, but less so when you consider (a) how much rest is available between playoff games (minimizing the need for depth) and (b) how much the Bulls are hurting. Right now, Deng has not been much more effective than Wallace (shooting just 38% overall and just 1-18 from 3, and missing Game 6 altogether). Hinrich was terrific in games 2-4, but has missed all of games 5 and 6. Gibson has been hurt and fairly unproductive the entire series (and was sick for Game 6).

Again, if everyone was fully healthy (ignoring Rose, who hasn't played all year), I'd take Williams, Lopez, and Johnson, and it wouldn't be all that close. After that? I'd take Noah, Deng, and Boozer, and again it wouldn't be all that close. I would take Butler, Gibson, and Blatche after that. I'd put Hinrich and Wallace in the same bucket. Then Watson and Robinson (though Robinson's ridiculous success in this series has been the difference). Then maybe Evans. Then, you're getting into the scrubs.

But again, so many of the Bulls are playing at far less than 100% (or not playing at all) that I'm not sure I'd keep that order. It's just been an impressive display of effort, sparked by unexpectedly good contributions from guys like Robinson, Belinelli, and Mohammad.

Fair points, but still disagree on Humphries. He is definitely a good rebounder, but not sure how you can call him a good shooter at 45% this year (46% for his career) on FGs as a PF. As for scoring, 5.8ppg in 18.3mpg works out to 11.4 in 36, which is pretty mediocre. His PER of 13.7 is below average as well (and only marginally better than that of Evans). Comparable numbers for Blatche are 51% on FGs, 19.1ppg per 36mpg and a 22.0 PER. Blatche is an OK matchup defensively for a less athletic PF like Boozer, and gives them much, much more offensively.

[CDu]

Fair points, but still disagree on Humphries. He is definitely a good rebounder, but not sure how you can call him a good shooter at 45% this year (46% for his career) on FGs as a PF. As for scoring, 5.8ppg in 18.3mpg works out to 11.4 in 36, which is pretty mediocre. His PER of 13.7 is below average as well (and only marginally better than that of Evans). Comparable numbers for Blatche are 51% on FGs, 19.1ppg per 36mpg and a 22.0 PER. Blatche is an OK matchup defensively for a less athletic PF like Boozer, and gives them much, much more offensively.

I say he's a good shooter because he is a pretty good shooter. His 45% is due to the fact that he mostly shoots midrange shots (he's not a true post player, so he doesn't get/take a lot of the high-percentage shots that many PF/C get). Note that he's been a 75+% FT shooter. He's in some ways a poor-man's Boozer in that most of his offense comes 12-15 feet from the basket. Boozer is better, obviously, but that's the type of offensive player Humphries is.

Blatche, on the other hand, is more of a post scorer (hence his higher FG%).

Is Humphries a scoring machine? Absolutely not. But he's in no way comparable to Evans in terms of offensive ability. If you've watched the series, it should be pretty evident that Humphries can shoot and Evans can not.

[Des Esseintes]

I disagree on Humphries. He can definitely score. The two things he brings to the table are good shooting and good rebounding. He's no Brook Lopez, but he's a very capable scorer (comparable in skill to Blatche). Humphries has generally played well in his limited time in the series. For whatever reason (probably defensive purposes?) Humphries has gotten very few minutes (in favor of Blatche and Evans).

The lack of depth is definitely an issue, but less so when you consider (a) how much rest is available between playoff games (minimizing the need for depth) and (b) how much the Bulls are hurting. Right now, Deng has not been much more effective than Wallace (shooting just 38% overall and just 1-18 from 3, and missing Game 6 altogether). Hinrich was terrific in games 2-4, but has missed all of games 5 and 6. Gibson has been hurt and fairly unproductive the entire series (and was sick for Game 6).

Again, if everyone was fully healthy (ignoring Rose, who hasn't played all year), I'd take Williams, Lopez, and Johnson, and it wouldn't be all that close. After that? I'd take Noah, Deng, and Boozer, and again it wouldn't be all that close. I would take Butler, Gibson, and Blatche after that. I'd put Hinrich and Wallace in the same bucket. Then Watson and Robinson (though Robinson's ridiculous success in this series has been the difference). Then maybe Evans. Then, you're getting into the scrubs.

But again, so many of the Bulls are playing at far less than 100% (or not playing at all) that I'm not sure I'd keep that order. It's just been an impressive display of effort, sparked by unexpectedly good contributions from guys like Robinson, Belinelli, and Mohammad.

Is Johnson better than Noah at this point? I'm not arguing with you; these are two teams I watch little of and am genuinely curious about the answer. I know Johnson has had an excellent career, but it seemed as though he was trending downward this season. Whereas a ring-protecting big man, especially one as gifted in so many ways as Noah is an incredibly valuable asset. I suppose Johnson's solid D and ability to get his own shot are fairly scarce combos too.

[sagegrouse]

20-0 run has reduced a 26-point NY lead in 4Q to six points. -- sage

[Billy Dat]

20-0 run has reduced a 26-point NY lead in 4Q to six points. -- sage

The last gasp of the Big 3 era in Boston. I cry no tears. Knicks first series win since 2000 - yeah baby! Shumpert, Felton and Prigioni came up big all series. Melo hit big shots at the end, as did JR. Bring on the Pacers.

[Billy Dat]

The last 8 minutes of Grant's pro career may be winding down now. Memphis is up by 9 in the 4th with 8 left and lead the series 3-2. G got a lot of run in the 3rd and we may see him again before its over. He still looks great out there.

[Starter]

The last time the Knicks won a series, I was a junior at Duke, wearing Allan Houston and LJ jerseys on campus. Now I'm 33, and scarred from the past decade-plus of mediocre-at-best teams, sexual harassment settlements, jacked-up ticket prices and wretched ownership and management. Even this solid team has some weird personnel, an unlikeable diva as the franchise player and a puppet front office. Having worked in sports the past 9 years, it's become very difficult to like this team, and the storm cloud hovering is that the farther removed we get from Walsh, the clowns at MSG will bring us back to the depths. I like things about this team, but I do wish I could feel the way I did about the Knicks back in the halcyon era of Starks and Oakley. It's true what they say: Ignorance is bliss.

Also, Knicks in 7 over Indiana.

Billy Dat, thoughts?

[_Gary]

Luol is still in the hospital and will miss game 7 tonight. And from what I'm reading the doctors still don't know what kind of illness he has! I thought he just had a bad case of the flu, but maybe not. Very strange.

[nmduke2001]

Luol is still in the hospital and will miss game 7 tonight. And from what I'm reading the doctors still don't know what kind of illness he has! I thought he just had a bad case of the flu, but maybe not. Very strange.

I just read that Luol had a spinal tap to check for meningitis. Holy cow.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2319295/Luol-Deng-meningitis-missing-Chicago-Bulls-v-Brooklyn-Nets-NBA-Playoff-Game-6.html

[subzero02]

Luol is still in the hospital and will miss game 7 tonight. And from what I'm reading the doctors still don't know what kind of illness he has! I thought he just had a bad case of the flu, but maybe not. Very strange.

Any word on the diagnosis

[BigZ]

One thing I love about the Bulls is they have proven winning in college can translate into winning in the NBA. Noah two time champ, Boozer champion, Kirk runner up along with Rose and Deng making final four apperances in their year in school.

[theAlaskanBear]

Any word on the diagnosis

Deng had a spinal tap to rule out meningitis. There was a complication and he required a blood patch to prevent spinal fluid leakage. I do not know what this means in regards to playing in the next round.

[CDu]

Deng had a spinal tap to rule out meningitis. There was a complication and he required a blood patch to prevent spinal fluid leakage. I do not know what this means in regards to playing in the next round.

Yeah, it has been really strange. No diagnosis yet (other than not meningitis). No certainty about when he'll return from the complications stemming from the spinal tap either.

Kudos to Noah (gutting it out on one good wheel), Butler (playing 48 minutes in each of the last two games), and Belinelli (improbably being a consistent playmaker in each of the last two games) for leading the team to a near-victory in Game 6 and ultimately the series win in 7.

Now, on to the slaughterhouse against the Heat (unless Rose, Hinrich, and Deng magically return).

[JasonEvans]

So, Melo got a vote for MVP this season. Whoever did that needs to have their voting rights taken away. I could see someone voting for maybe KD over Lebron, but MELO?!?!?! Are you kidding me?!?!

-Jason "Melo never saw a shot he did not like better than passing. He could learn something from KD" Evans

[JasonEvans]

So, Melo got a vote for MVP this season. Whoever did that needs to have their voting rights taken away. I could see someone voting for maybe KD over Lebron, but MELO?!?!?! Are you kidding me?!?!

-Jason "Melo never saw a shot he did not like better than passing. He could learn something from KD" Evans

Here is a good article (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/lebron-james-nba-mvp-not-unanimously-carmelo-anthony-194335300.html) on the farce that was the MVP voting. Some of the voters have clearly not watched NBA basketball this season.


Five voters didn't have Kevin Durant in their top five, this season. That should pin your ears back. Denver Nugget guard Ty Lawson received a fifth-place vote from someone who wasn’t taking his job as a voter seriously. Stephen Curry, who didn’t even make the All-Star team (in another blown vote) and can’t guard a bottle of seltzer water, received three fifth-place votes as well. David Lee – David Lee! – received a fifth-place vote. And Joakim Noah – my favorite player and the hero of Saturday night’s inspiring Chicago Bulls win over the Brooklyn Nets – took in a fifth-place vote despite playing just 50 total minutes over the course of the regular season’s last month.

I can sorta see the vote for Curry, who can be awesome at times... but to say that David Lee or Ty Lawson was the 5th most valuable player in the entire NBA this season... insane. And there should be a special place in hell reserved for the lunatic who did not have Durant among the top 5 in the league. How can anyone with a straight face name 4 players better than Kevin Durant right now. Ha!

-Jason "all votes on post-season awards should be made public, so we can ridicule and remove from future voting the people who clearly have no idea what they are doing" Evans

[CDu]

Here is a good article (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/lebron-james-nba-mvp-not-unanimously-carmelo-anthony-194335300.html) on the farce that was the MVP voting. Some of the voters have clearly not watched NBA basketball this season.

I can sorta see the vote for Curry, who can be awesome at times... but to say that David Lee or Ty Lawson was the 5th most valuable player in the entire NBA this season... insane. And there should be a special place in hell reserved for the lunatic who did not have Durant among the top 5 in the league. How can anyone with a straight face name 4 players better than Kevin Durant right now. Ha!

-Jason "all votes on post-season awards should be made public, so we can ridicule and remove from future voting the people who clearly have no idea what they are doing" Evans

I get the Curry vote. He averaged 22.9 ppg, 6.9 apg, 4.0 rpg, and 1.6 spg while shooting 45% from the floor (45% from 3) and 90% from the line. He doesn't bring much defensively, but he's the biggest reason that Golden State made the playoffs. I completely agree about Lee and Lawson though. It's really not close there.

And as much as I'd like for Noah to be top-5 (I think he's a game-changing presence on both ends when healthy), he just wasn't healthy at all this year.

Frankly, I'm not sure why (aside from jealousy) James wasn't a unanimous choice. His numbers were crazy. I'm also not sure how Durant wasn't a unanimous #2. He is MUCH more efficient than Anthony, a better rebounder, better passer, he's better defensively. I wouldn't be offended to see Anthony in everyone's Top-5. But there's absolutely no way he should be #1 or #2 on anyone's list this year.

[mkirsh]

So, Melo got a vote for MVP this season. Whoever did that needs to have their voting rights taken away. I could see someone voting for maybe KD over Lebron, but MELO?!?!?! Are you kidding me?!?!

-Jason "Melo never saw a shot he did not like better than passing. He could learn something from KD" Evans

Too bad Lebron never played in the ACC, we have a solution for such problems

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?14982-Hansbrough-4-time-Unanimous-All-ACC-well-not-really

[CDu]

Deng will miss Game 1 of the Bulls/Heat series tonight as he continues to be suffering from complications of the spinal tap last week. He has not left Chicago and it is unclear when he'll return. Hinrich is a gametime decision, and is likely in the "doubtful" category. And of course, Rose has apparently decided that he isn't going to play this year. So an already undermanned Bulls team will be even more undermanned against the defending champs. Not good.

[Starter]

The problem with MVP voting is that no sport has ever actually defined what the award truly means. Most people interpret it as the "best player" -- myself included, and I would have voted for LeBron, who was all-time, historically good. But the award itself is called the "Most Valuable" player. As such, if you want to make a case for Carmelo, you probably can. Gary Washburn's column explaining his vote (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/05/05/yes-voted-carmelo-anthony-for-mvp-and-for-good-reason/Yo08ZgzGaxzlt9KF0JDfqM/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw) was well reasoned, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. His case was that if the Heat didn't have LeBron, they're still a No. 5 seed or so in the East. If the Knicks didn't have Anthony, they would have been literally one of the worst teams in basketball. And make no mistake, Carmelo was a truly elite player this year, kicked his game up a notch. It's not like he voted for Andray Blatche or something.

Mind you, I'm not making the case for Carmelo. I already said I would have voted for LeBron. But if someone thinks that Carmelo is more valuable to the Knicks than LeBron is to the Heat, it's a defensible argument and not worthy of ridicule. If Washburn came out and said that Carmelo was simply better, it's a completely different story.

I mean, listen, Steve Nash won two MVP Awards. I love the guy to death, but the only possible way you're giving him the award is through the literal "most valuable" argument. Not to mention, Karl Malone and Barkley beat out Jordan for MVP Awards in Jordan's prime, when we all know Jordan was literally the best player in the game every single year, and it wasn't close. I can only assume the voters simply saw guys who had absolutely incredible seasons on top contenders and decided to give someone else a chance.

And neither of those things happened here! One guy voted for Carmelo -- who didn't even play in the market he covers -- and he offered a pretty solid rationale why he did. LeBron still ran away with the award, and I don't think he's going to sleep on a mattress of tears tonight.

**Note: I used to work with Gary Washburn. He's an interesting dude, definitely has some weird ideas, but I can't see him having done this as a publicity stunt. As he said, he was surprised nobody else out of 122 voters picked someone other than LeBron. And that's also a defensible notion, since there's never actually been a unanimous NBA MVP. (Shaq was the only other guy to miss by one vote in 1999-00 when Allen Iverson got one vote.) Any way you slice it, news cycles move faster than ever. I'd imagine this will be forgotten by tomorrow.

[BD80]

Deng will miss Game 1 of the Bulls/Heat series tonight as he continues to be suffering from complications of the spinal tap last week. He has not left Chicago and it is unclear when he'll return. Hinrich is a gametime decision, and is likely in the "doubtful" category. And of course, Rose has apparently decided that he isn't going to play this year. So an already undermanned Bulls team will be even more undermanned against the defending champs. Not good.

Ah Rose, such a delicate flower ...

He's been cleared to play for over a month now? If I recall, he received medical clearance with a couple of weeks left in the season. Now he sits in a suit and watches his teammates duct-tape their limbs back on and gut out game after game. What a warrior.

[CDu]

The problem with MVP voting is that no sport has ever actually defined what the award truly means. Most people interpret it as the "best player" -- myself included, and I would have voted for LeBron, who was all-time, historically good. But the award itself is called the "Most Valuable" player. As such, if you want to make a case for Carmelo, you probably can. Gary Washburn's column explaining his vote (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/05/05/yes-voted-carmelo-anthony-for-mvp-and-for-good-reason/Yo08ZgzGaxzlt9KF0JDfqM/story.html?s_campaign=sm_tw) was well reasoned, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. His case was that if the Heat didn't have LeBron, they're still a No. 5 seed or so in the East. If the Knicks didn't have Anthony, they would have been literally one of the worst teams in basketball. And make no mistake, Carmelo was a truly elite player this year, kicked his game up a notch. It's not like he voted for Andray Blatche or something.

My problem with the "take the player off his team" argument (note that I realize you were just playing devil's advocate) is that it basically makes the idea of the award meaningless. I mean, by that logic, almost every player on a truly elite team should be excluded, right? Because all of the truly elite teams have multiple star players. Put James on the Knicks and they probably get the #1 seed. Put Anthony on the Heat and they might contend for the #1 seed, but probably wouldn't be nearly as dominant. If that's true (and I think it is), then what value is there in the MVP award? No, it makes more sense to go to the guy who had the best season. Has that historically happened? Not always, and I think that is to the detriment of the award.

My other problem is that it's not a given to say that James isn't more valuable to the Heat than Anthony is to the Knicks. Without James, that Heat team is just okay. With James, they are unquestionably the best team in the NBA and its not even close. Who is to say that the dropoff in wins for Miami isn't similar to the dropoff in wins for NY? Remember: Bosh missed 8 games and Wade missed 13, and both had to play fewer minutes than normal because of their injuries. Without James, you have a declining-and-injured Wade, a soft Bosh, a mediocre PG, and no interior presence.

[CDu]

Ah Rose, such a delicate flower ...

He's been cleared to play for over a month now? If I recall, he received medical clearance with a couple of weeks left in the season. Now he sits in a suit and watches his teammates duct-tape their limbs back on and gut out game after game. What a warrior.

It's actually worse than that. Rose has been medically cleared to play for almost 2 months now (report came out on March 9). It has been over a year since the injury. I think it's pretty clear that he's choosing not to play, and I think it's either a vanity issue (doesn't want to play his way back to greatness, just wants to return as a great player) or a psychological issue (still doesn't trust his knee even though it is structurally healed). My guess is that it's a lot of column A and a little of column B.

Regardless of why he's sitting out, he's getting slammed in Chicago. I mean, you have Hinrich trying to come back and play on a bad leg. You have Noah playing through plantar fasciitis. You have Deng saying he wanted to come back for Game 7 after having a spinal tap and a severe viral infection. You have Robinson and Gibson playing through a viral infection (with Robinson vomiting during timeouts). You have the team playing their 4th string PG in a Game 7. And then you have Rose, the superstar, the former MVP, the guy who has been practicing for weeks, sitting things out. Needless to say, this rehab has not been handled well from a PR perspective.

[Reilly]

What do the coaches and front office say about Rose? I haven't followed the situation. I would think at the end of the day, if he's available to play, and they want him to play, he plays ... or doesn't get paid. Realize he's a superstar and all, but eventually they would hold the trump card if it came to that. Are they supportive of him not playing right now, or simply publicly "supportive" but privately grumbling?

[JasonEvans]

My other problem is that it's not a given to say that James isn't more valuable to the Heat than Anthony is to the Knicks. Without James, that Heat team is just okay. With James, they are unquestionably the best team in the NBA and its not even close. Who is to say that the dropoff in wins for Miami isn't similar to the dropoff in wins for NY? Remember: Bosh missed 8 games and Wade missed 13, and both had to play fewer minutes than normal because of their injuries. Without James, you have a declining-and-injured Wade, a soft Bosh, a mediocre PG, and no interior presence.

By what logic could anyone say that the Heat, minus James, are still a playoff team or even the #5 seed? Wade isn't nearly the player he was a half decade ago and seems to be constantly nursing injuries. Bosh wasn't ever all that good to begin with (look what happened in Toronto when he was the main man, I think they finished over .500 once in his career there). Now, look what happened in Cleveland when Lebron was there (consistently one of the top records in the NBA) and the year after he left (from 61 wins to 19 wins).

It is impossible to prove*, but I'd be willing to bet anyone that Miami minus Lebron does not finish above .500. who knows, we may get to see in a couple years if he leaves to return to Cleveland.

*- don't go and cite the 6 games at the end of the year when Miami was playing without James because we all know everyone in the NBA is just playing out the string at that point. Plenty of stars are sitting and the games are not being taken seriously by most teams. Those end of year games are so meaningless, I recall Shelden Williams putting up good numbers for the Hawks in games like that late in the season.

-Jason "I consider Washburn's 'without him they'd be...' argument to be silly and it really feels like he was looking to make a name and make waves by being the lone Lebron dissenter" Evans

[CDu]

What do the coaches and front office say about Rose? I haven't followed the situation. I would think at the end of the day, if he's available to play, and they want him to play, he plays ... or doesn't get paid. Realize he's a superstar and all, but eventually they would hold the trump card if it came to that. Are they supportive of him not playing right now, or simply publicly "supportive" but privately grumbling?

The Bulls have been VERY quiet about the situation. I think they realize it is a complicated issue, and they don't want to come across as the bad guy. Aside from the leaked "he's cleared to play" (and that was following the ill-advised and ignorant comments by Reggie Rose about the Bulls not getting a star to support Rose at the trade deadline) they have put no public pressure on Rose. I am quite sure that they would have preferred he come back during the last month of the regular season and be a part of the rotation at PG. But he didn't. And now, I think they're resigned to him not playing, even though he has technically left the possibility alive. But they know that their image is shaky around the league, and they don't want to appear to be bullying their injured superstar.

Ultimately, they're in a no-win situation. If they try to strong-arm Rose into playing, they alienate their hometown superstar (whom they have for the next 4 years at least) and that damages their cred among players around the league. If they don't, they wind up with little chance to compete this year unless he decides on his own to return. They went for the latter option, and just didn't get lucky with Rose's decision.

[JasonEvans]

What do the coaches and front office say about Rose? I haven't followed the situation. I would think at the end of the day, if he's available to play, and they want him to play, he plays ... or doesn't get paid. Realize he's a superstar and all, but eventually they would hold the trump card if it came to that. Are they supportive of him not playing right now, or simply publicly "supportive" but privately grumbling?

Superstars are a very valuable and hard-to-come-by commodity in the NBA. Even if the Bulls were upset at Rose, they are best off keeping that quiet and not letting him know. Certainly, suspending him without pay is a formula likely to lead to a situation like Carmelo in Denver and Elway in Baltimore where a team is forced to trade a great player and often gets less than that player should have been worth.

That said, I think the Bulls front office has leaked a tiny bit of grumbling but they are doing their best not to let on that they are not happy with Rose. There is simply not much they can do about it and they are keeping quiet. My bet is that Rose doesn't feel he is 100% and he is scared that not being 100% could mean injuring the knee again. He wants to come back once he is certain everything is ok... and that means he is done for this season.

-Jason "not that it really matters, I don't think the Bulls challenge the Heat even with Rose at this point... but next year could be fun!" Evans

[CDu]

Superstars are a very valuable and hard-to-come-by commodity in the NBA. Even if the Bulls were upset at Rose, they are best off keeping that quiet and not letting him know. Certainly, suspending him without pay is a formula likely to lead to a situation like Carmelo in Denver and Elway in Baltimore where a team is forced to trade a great player and often gets less than that player should have been worth.

That said, I think the Bulls front office has leaked a bit and it is fairly widely known that they are not happy with Rose. There is simply not much they can do about it other than grumble a little bit. My bet is that Rose doesn't feel he is 100% and he is scared that not being 100% could mean injuring the knee again. He wants to come back once he is certain everything is ok... and that means he is done for this season.

-Jason "not that it really matters, I don't think the Bulls challenge the Heat even with Rose at this point... but next year could be fun!" Evans

I tend to agree. I think that if Rose had returned in late-March the Bulls might have had a chance in this series. That would have given him over a month to play his way into reasonable form (obviously not peak form) and it would give him time to mesh with his teammates again. The Bulls, with Butler and Belinelli replacing Korver and Bogans, and Hinrich and Robinson replacing Watson and Lucas, match up fairly well against the Heat. Butler and Deng are terrific defensively and have made life difficult for James and Wade. And the Bulls have a huge edge inside, especially with a healthy Boozer. I don't think that such a Bulls team would beat the Heat, but I think they could steal at least 2 and push it to 6 and maybe to 7.

However, since Rose hasn't played yet, I can't imagine him playing well now and I can't imagine him fitting in with the team. Sure, he'd be an upgrade over Teague as the backup PG, but that's probably about it. So even if Rose returned tonight, I'd expect the Heat to win in 4 or 5.

[Starter]

By what logic could anyone say that the Heat, minus James, are still a playoff team or even the #5 seed? Wade isn't nearly the player he was a half decade ago and seems to be constantly nursing injuries. Bosh wasn't ever all that good to begin with (look what happened in Toronto when he was the main man, I think they finished over .500 once in his career there). Now, look what happened in Cleveland when Lebron was there (consistently one of the top records in the NBA) and the year after he left (from 61 wins to 19 wins).

It is impossible to prove*, but I'd be willing to bet anyone that Miami minus Lebron does not finish above .500. who knows, we may get to see in a couple years if he leaves to return to Cleveland.

*- don't go and cite the 6 games at the end of the year when Miami was playing without James because we all know everyone in the NBA is just playing out the string at that point. Plenty of stars are sitting and the games are not being taken seriously by most teams. Those end of year games are so meaningless, I recall Shelden Williams putting up good numbers for the Hawks in games like that late in the season.

-Jason "I consider Washburn's 'without him they'd be...' argument to be silly and it really feels like he was looking to make a name and make waves by being the lone Lebron dissenter" Evans

I'd contend that a Heat team without LeBron James, playing in the East, is still pretty darn good. I mean, this (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html) Heat team won 47 games, and it was Wade and a much shaker supporting cast than he'd have had now. Wade missed three games in November and one in December, then didn't miss any more until the last month of the season. He was legitimately banged up, but there was no reason to play him. And the games he did play, even if he does a little less now with LeBron in town and he's not quite the dynamo he was in his younger days, wouldn't you say he's still a Top 10 NBA player? Hollinger ranked him No. 7, for what it's worth.

And Bosh ranked 29th. I'm kind of a Bosh apologist, and I think without James, he'd be closer to the guy who averaged 22+ ppg for five consecutive years in Toronto. Then there's Ray Allen, Haslem, Battier, Norris Cole and Birdman, all guys perfectly suited to playing their obvious roles. I could be wrong, but if the underwhelming Nets won 49 games, I think the Heat minus LeBron would have been good for 50. I mean, Milwaukee made the playoffs in the East at 6 games under .500.

Jason, I think your and CDu's argument up there on the MVP Award is good. It logically should be the best player, since there's no real way to quantify importance to a team. I mean, is there any real way to quantify the credit LeBron should get for a 65-win team? How do you measure that against Carmelo taking the Knicks from a presumably terrible team with no scoring to the No. 2 seed in the East? You can't. That said, Coach of the Year Awards rarely actually go to the coach of the best team in the conference; people usually go with the upstart and figure that guy did a better job with less. Much like MVP, that's never really been defined either. My real point was, if you interpret that Carmelo was the most valuable player to his team in the league, and you vote like that even though LeBron was a force of nature, I don't think it's completely indefensible. But I get your point, absolutely, and you're probably right on the money that the best player really should get the award, assuming I guess that he's on a good team.

As for Washburn doing this as an attention grab, no real way to know, but I doubt it. I believe him when he said he didn't know he'd be literally the only guy not to pick LeBron. I would not have been surprised if a NY writer or two caught Melo fever, or a few people fell in love with the idea of voting for Durant.

[Billy Dat]

The last time the Knicks won a series, I was a junior at Duke, wearing Allan Houston and LJ jerseys on campus. Now I'm 33, and scarred from the past decade-plus of mediocre-at-best teams, sexual harassment settlements, jacked-up ticket prices and wretched ownership and management. Even this solid team has some weird personnel, an unlikeable diva as the franchise player and a puppet front office. Having worked in sports the past 9 years, it's become very difficult to like this team, and the storm cloud hovering is that the farther removed we get from Walsh, the clowns at MSG will bring us back to the depths. I like things about this team, but I do wish I could feel the way I did about the Knicks back in the halcyon era of Starks and Oakley. It's true what they say: Ignorance is bliss.

Also, Knicks in 7 over Indiana.

Billy Dat, thoughts?

Apologies for the tardy reply...

Being a few years older than you, the last time the Knicks won a playoff series, I was out of Duke for 6 years and starting to think that, when combined with the Pat Reilly era success, the Van Gundy era might beget another era and the Knicks success would continue on. I am guessing that you, born in 1980, were pretty much aligned with the Ewing Golden Age, perhaps staring with the glorious series win against Boston in 1990 when Patrick hit that crazy off balance shot clock ending 3 from the corner to help clinch it. My fandom started circa 1978/79 when they were terrible...the end of the Holzman era Mr. Bill Cartwright, Sugar Ray Richardson, Sly Williams, a whiff of Earl the Pearl, Marvin Webster. But, then Hubie Brown came along and things started to get better. Better yet, Bernard King came along with him and we finally had a reason to cheer. I only tell this tale to say that I think starting my Knicks fan career in the shadow of the two titles and experiencing horrendous futility made every successful era seem like a gift. I agree that this team and this ownership are not as easy to like as some of the past squads, and Carmelo seems to try to hard when he should lay back and vice versa, but it sure as heck beats the Zeke era. Aside from Melo's diva-esque air, I like everybody on the team. I feel for your proximity to professional sports and knowing how the sausage is made, that clearly complicates things.

As for the Pacers series, obviously, with Game 1 done, I am in a different position to judge the series then you were, but I always thought the Pacers would be a very, very tough out. You said Knicks in 7 - I'll go with that thought, even though I now fear Pacers in 6.

[Starter]

(Note: I missed Mario Chalmers up there. Not that he's any great shakes, I just figured I'd save people the time of pointing that out.)

[CDu]

I'd contend that a Heat team without LeBron James, playing in the East, is still pretty darn good. I mean, this (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html) Heat team won 47 games, and it was Wade and a much shaker supporting cast than he'd have had now. Wade missed three games in November and one in December, then didn't miss any more until the last month of the season. He was legitimately banged up, but there was no reason to play him. And the games he did play, even if he does a little less now with LeBron in town and he's not quite the dynamo he was in his younger days, wouldn't you say he's still a Top 10 NBA player? Hollinger ranked him No. 7, for what it's worth.

I'd argue that Wade as of 2013 is not nearly the player that Wade was in 2010. I think that the addition of James came at just the right time. Wade has entered his decline phase, but by being paired with James he gets the easier matchup every night. Teams have to put their best perimeter defender on James, and few teams have enough to defend Wade.

As for the rest of that 2010 team, they had a still solid C (O'Neal), a talented-but-inexperienced offensive player at PF (Beasley), and better PG play (Alston, Arroyo, and Chalmers). They had Haslem in his prime to fill the rebounding/physical player role. They had a solid-but-not-special SF (Richardson), and they had a couple of good shooting wings (Wright, Cook, Jones) to play off of Wade.

But the biggest difference is that Wade WILLED that team to 47 wins. He could not do that today.


And Bosh ranked 29th. I'm kind of a Bosh apologist, and I think without James, he'd be closer to the guy who averaged 22+ ppg for five consecutive years in Toronto. Then there's Ray Allen, Haslem, Battier, Norris Cole and Birdman, all guys perfectly suited to playing their obvious roles. I could be wrong, but if the underwhelming Nets won 49 games, I think the Heat minus LeBron would have been good for 50. I mean, Milwaukee made the playoffs in the East at 6 games under .500.

First, Hollinger's system is flawed. It doesn't really capture defense at all, and that's where Wade and (especially) Bosh suffer. As for Bosh, I agree that Bosh would be a bigger scorer if it wasn't for James, but I don't know that he'd be more efficient. And even still, he's pretty soft for a big man. He doesn't provide much rebounding or interior defense. That wasn't the case

The Nets have a MUCH better option at PG, a not-quite-as-good-but-still-very-good option at SG, and a better option at the post scoring spot (Lopez is better than Bosh at this point). They also have better defensive players and MUCH better rebounders. The Miami role players are perfect given that they have the superstar playmaker in James. Without James, the aged Allen struggles to get off his shot (like he did in Boston last year) against good defense, and role players like Haslem, Battier, and the Birdman are far less effective. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the Heat win 50 games. I'd be surprised if they won 40.

[Billy Dat]

I only saw the last 3 minutes of the Grizz v OKC yesterday, but I was simultaneously impressed by Iceberg Slim's poise and determination in knocking down those last two shots and flabbergasted by Memphis' not getting off a shot on their last two possessions.

[Troublemaker]

Deng has been ruled out of Game 1 (so has Rose, but that's no surprise). Hinrich is a game-time decision.

Man, if the Bulls could just get a 90% Hinrich and 90% Deng back starting in Game 2, I bet they put up a major fight in this series, possibly taking two games from the Heat. Hinrich is actually the more important player here. He's the Bulls' Captain, a true PG that can also play the 2 and has given Wade fits with his defense during his career. Robinson is better as a sparkplug off the bench backing up (and sometimes playing alongside) Hinrich than in the starter's role.

This season, the Bulls are 41-23 with Hinrich and 8-17 without him. They need Captain Kirk back.

[BobbyFan]

I'd contend that a Heat team without LeBron James, playing in the East, is still pretty darn good. I mean, this (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2010.html) Heat team won 47 games, and it was Wade and a much shaker supporting cast than he'd have had now. Wade missed three games in November and one in December, then didn't miss any more until the last month of the season. He was legitimately banged up, but there was no reason to play him. And the games he did play, even if he does a little less now with LeBron in town and he's not quite the dynamo he was in his younger days, wouldn't you say he's still a Top 10 NBA player? Hollinger ranked him No. 7, for what it's worth.

And Bosh ranked 29th. I'm kind of a Bosh apologist, and I think without James, he'd be closer to the guy who averaged 22+ ppg for five consecutive years in Toronto. Then there's Ray Allen, Haslem, Battier, Norris Cole and Birdman, all guys perfectly suited to playing their obvious roles. I could be wrong, but if the underwhelming Nets won 49 games, I think the Heat minus LeBron would have been good for 50. I mean, Milwaukee made the playoffs in the East at 6 games under .500.

Pretty much agreed. I'd say that without LeBron they are in the low 50 in wins. Unlike in Cleveland, his current supporting cast is far more able at raising their level of play to help atone for his absence. Wade and Bosh's impact would clearly go up, and they would be one of the top duos in the league. Wade in particular has become underrated this season - he is still a borderline top 5 player, but there's just too much overlap between him and LeBron's abilities for him to produce the way he would in most other situations. And I'd suspect that Mike Miller, who has been as healthy as I've seen him in a while, would increase his efficiency and production with a more defined role and consistent minutes.

As for the discussion regarding the MVP award, I agree that the term "valuable" is too open to interpretation. Using Bosh as an example, he is probably a slightly better player now than he was in Toronto, mainly due to his better defensive positioning. Yet his value has dropped a decent amount. It's somewhat silly to hand out an individual award when it depends on the surrounding team, but other less ambiguous awards wind up resulting in suspect selections as well.

[Starter]

I'd argue that Wade as of 2013 is not nearly the player that Wade was in 2010. I think that the addition of James came at just the right time. Wade has entered his decline phase, but by being paired with James he gets the easier matchup every night. Teams have to put their best perimeter defender on James, and few teams have enough to defend Wade.

As for the rest of that 2010 team, they had a still solid C (O'Neal), a talented-but-inexperienced offensive player at PF (Beasley), and better PG play (Alston, Arroyo, and Chalmers). They had Haslem in his prime to fill the rebounding/physical player role. They had a solid-but-not-special SF (Richardson), and they had a couple of good shooting wings (Wright, Cook, Jones) to play off of Wade.

But the biggest difference is that Wade WILLED that team to 47 wins. He could not do that today.



First, Hollinger's system is flawed. It doesn't really capture defense at all, and that's where Wade and (especially) Bosh suffer. As for Bosh, I agree that Bosh would be a bigger scorer if it wasn't for James, but I don't know that he'd be more efficient. And even still, he's pretty soft for a big man. He doesn't provide much rebounding or interior defense. That wasn't the case

The Nets have a MUCH better option at PG, a not-quite-as-good-but-still-very-good option at SG, and a better option at the post scoring spot (Lopez is better than Bosh at this point). They also have better defensive players and MUCH better rebounders. The Miami role players are perfect given that they have the superstar playmaker in James. Without James, the aged Allen struggles to get off his shot (like he did in Boston last year) against good defense, and role players like Haslem, Battier, and the Birdman are far less effective. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the Heat win 50 games. I'd be surprised if they won 40.

I think we just disagree on certain things here, which is fine, it's rare. Deron was actually inexplicably brutal most of the season, though he did pick it up quite a bit down the stretch. Joe Johnson is far more down the decline path than Wade, ranking 167th in efficiency. Lopez had a wonderful season; he and Bosh are kind of similar players in that both are very good scorers and neither rebounds commensurate with their height. I think very highly of Lopez. But then, Gerald Wallace is pretty lousy now, Reggie Evans can rebound but do literally nothing else, Kris Humphries was a waste of a signing, they buried MarShon Brooks, Keith Bogans stinks and Andray Blatche has no place on a championship aspirant. I think Carlesimo did a really good job with this team, actually, to get them in the position they were in. Then the series against a ravaged Bulls team completely exposed them.

I get that the Heat were designed to perfectly fit with James, but people are making Wade out like he's chopped liver, and he's still unquestionably an elite player. And at 29, I feel like Bosh isn't quite washed up either, and he was pretty efficient with a bigger role in Toronto. (His last five seasons, he didn't rank lower than 17th, and he placed 4th once.) Put a supporting cast of Allen-Haslem-Chalmers-Cole-Battier-Birdman around two dangerous offensive players in Wade and Bosh, and I think that's still a really good team, just not one of the best teams in NBA history.

For what it's worth, I recall that 2009-10 Heat team being pretty lousy. Wade was doing pretty near everything out of sheer necessiry. I think if you take Wade off THAT team, they'd have been at Bobcats levels of horribleness.

[Troublemaker]

Pretty much agreed. I'd say that without LeBron they are in the low 50 in wins. Unlike in Cleveland, his current supporting cast is far more able at raising their level of play to help atone for his absence. Wade and Bosh's impact would clearly go up, and they would be one of the top duos in the league. Wade in particular has become underrated this season - he is still a borderline top 5 player, but there's just too much overlap between him and LeBron's abilities for him to produce the way he would in most other situations. And I'd suspect that Mike Miller, who has been as healthy as I've seen him in a while, would increase his efficiency and production with a more defined role and consistent minutes.

As for the discussion regarding the MVP award, I agree that the term "valuable" is too open to interpretation. Using Bosh as an example, he is probably a slightly better player now than he was in Toronto, mainly due to his better defensive positioning. Yet his value has dropped a decent amount. It's somewhat silly to hand out an individual award when it depends on the surrounding team, but other less ambiguous awards wind up resulting in suspect selections as well.

I agree with you guys. Heat would've still won 50+ games without Lebron, taking nothing away from Lebron, who is perhaps the best player ever at this point. But the Heat are a championship team with a lot of depth; Riley has had 3 offseasons to add complementary pieces around James, Wade, and Bosh. For example, they have more reliable 3-pt shooters than anyone in the league. More importantly, they have a champion's confidence and chemistry at this point. After their long winning streak was snapped by Chicago, the Heat pretty much rested players on-and-off for a month and still dominated. They even won at San Antonio with neither James nor Wade playing: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2013033124

Lebron is what makes Miami a mid-60s win team, but even without him, the Heat would be right there with Indiana and New York in the East, and probably the favorites.

[CDu]

I have said it before, but I will say it again. Dwyane Wade is just insufferable. He is constantly whining to the officials on every play. His offensive game no seems to consist of diving wildly at the rim and begging for calls. He is still a very good player, but somewhere along the way his attitude just got really awful.

LeBron is just amazing though. He had an awful first half, but has absolutely dominated the second half. Butler has given it his best shot (going to go all 48 for the 3rd straight game) but it just isn't meant to be. The Bulls really miss Hinrich and Deng.

[CDu]

I have said it before, but I will say it again. Dwyane Wade is just insufferable. He is constantly whining to the officials on every play. His offensive game no seems to consist of diving wildly at the rim and begging for calls. He is still a very good player, but somewhere along the way his attitude just got really awful.

LeBron is just amazing though. He had an awful first half, but has absolutely dominated the second half. Butler has given it his best shot (going to go all 48 for the 3rd straight game) but it just isn't meant to be. The Bulls really miss Hinrich and Deng.

I spoke too soon. The Bulls absolutely dominated the last 6 minutes to pull an incredible upset. No Rose, no Deng, no Hinrich, no problem!

[Troublemaker]

Thibs is quite the coach. In his last 9 games playing the Heat without Rose, he is 5-4.

In their last 44 games, Miami is 41-1 against the rest of the league and 0-2 against the Bulls.

[g-money]

As I sit watching the Spurs and Warriors in OT, a few random thoughts from tonight's games:

1. Anybody have any insights as to why Shane was on the bench at the end of the Bulls-Heat game? I know he shot poorly, but typically his "intangibles" (i.e. +/-) make it worth keeping him on the floor.

2. Watching Steph Curry light up the Spurs has been a pleasure. I really hope Seth gets a crack at the NBA, even if it requires a ride on his brother's coattails to some extent.

3. With the pleasure of #2 comes the pain of watching another Warriors collapse down the stretch. I love Mark Jackson as a coach, but part of this is on him: Every Warriors possession over the last 4 minutes of regulation consisted of four guys standing around while either Curry or Jack tried to play hero ball.

4. Harrison Barnes is actually turning out to be a pretty good pro. (ducks)

[Troublemaker]

I stayed up to watch, too, g-money. Great game. Can this go in triple OT?

ETA: Nope.

[Des Esseintes]

As I sit watching the Spurs and Warriors in OT, a few random thoughts from tonight's games:

1. Anybody have any insights as to why Shane was on the bench at the end of the Bulls-Heat game? I know he shot poorly, but typically his "intangibles" (i.e. +/-) make it worth keeping him on the floor.

2. Watching Steph Curry light up the Spurs has been a pleasure. I really hope Seth gets a crack at the NBA, even if it requires a ride on his brother's coattails to some extent.

3. With the pleasure of #2 comes the pain of watching another Warriors collapse down the stretch. I love Mark Jackson as a coach, but part of this is on him: Every Warriors possession over the last 4 minutes of regulation consisted of four guys standing around while either Curry or Jack tried to play hero ball.

4. Harrison Barnes is actually turning out to be a pretty good pro. (ducks)

Yeah, this game was extraordinary, marred only by the fact that Barnes and Dancin' Danny Green are out there doing real work. The case of Green really flummoxes me. Everyone says he's been sprinkled with Spurs dust, and that's true. But Spurs dust (apparently) doesn't just mean hitting corner threes and knowing your defensive assignments. He's put it on the floor and gotten to the center of the lane; he had an impressive block in transition. It drives me crazy. That dude should be playing in Nepal.

Love hearing Kenny have to explain why Barnes is the true screwup on the Ginobli three, though.

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, it's kind of interesting how out of the Green/Ginyard/Hansbrough/Frasor class, Green has turned out to be arguably the most productive pro. Not what many expected. It does emphasize the point that college ball and NBA ball are different, and skill sets don't directly correlate.

[CDu]

Thibs is quite the coach. In his last 9 games playing the Heat without Rose, he is 5-4.

In their last 44 games, Miami is 41-1 against the rest of the league and 0-2 against the Bulls.

Well, the Heat are actually 2-2 against the Bulls in that stretch (they won on Feb. 21 and Apr. 14). Still, the Heat have only lost 3 times in 44 games, and two of those where to the Bulls. And both were with the Bulls short-handed (the first without Noah, Belinelli, or Hamilton; the second without Deng and Hinrich; both without Rose, of course). That's pretty amazing.

Gotta give the game ball to Jimmy Butler, who played all 48 minutes and did an admirable job on LeBron James. He held James to just 2 first half points, and made James work hard for his 24 (on 8-17 shooting). And he still had enough in the tank to provide 21 points and 14 rebounds. Close second and third to Nate Robinson (27 points, 9 assists) and Joakim Noah (13 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, and a block).

[g-money]

I stayed up to watch, too, g-money. Great game. Can this go in triple OT?

ETA: Nope.

I can't take too much credit, TM - I live on the West Coast now. But hopefully it was worth staying up for back East as well.

I jumped on the Warriors bandwagon this season, in part a reaction to the Nets' (the team of my youth) move to Brooklyn, and in part a natural consequence of taking my kids to several Warriors games this year.

It has been a great ride, but after that gut-wrenching loss last night I'm afraid the bandwagon is about to roll right off a cliff. We shall see.

Btw, imagine if we had a game like that during March Madness? People would be calling it one for the ages. All the NCAA needs to do is swap refs with the NBA and require all players to attend college for four years. Piece of cake. :)

[tommy]

As I sit watching the Spurs and Warriors in OT, a few random thoughts from tonight's games:

3. With the pleasure of #2 comes the pain of watching another Warriors collapse down the stretch. I love Mark Jackson as a coach, but part of this is on him: Every Warriors possession over the last 4 minutes of regulation consisted of four guys standing around while either Curry or Jack tried to play hero ball.


First of all, what a thrilling game it was. Just awesome.

Mark Jackson deserves some blame for the lack of motion in the Warriors offense down the stretch, I agree. But it wasn't Jackson who caused Richard Jefferson to brick two critical free throws with 2 minutes to play in regulation that would've stemmed the Spurs rally and restore the lead to double digits. That was the supposed steady, veteran hand of Jefferson that let the team down. And then the Warriors defense down the stretch was pretty bad too. There was no inside presence at all -- Jackson went small and Bogut wasn't even in there much, so Parker just carved them up going to the hoop without a care in the world. And Boris Diaw of all people was allowed to turn back the clock about 7 years. But Danny Green hitting some tough 3's under major pressure -- those were nobody's fault. Guy just came up big.

[Billy Dat]

Great win for the Knicks last night. The 30-2 run in the 4th was epic, and Melo's unselfish team game, which also resulted in 30+ points, was sweet. Props to Pablo Prigioni and Iman Shumpert for their continued excellent play, and Kenyon Martin continues to provide huge value off the bench. Frank Vogel threw in the towel unusually early, with over 5 minutes left in the game, which provided the rare scene of both Hansbrough brothers sharing an NBA court. I also happily caught a glimpse of Miles, in a black suit, striding off the court at the end of the game.

This will continue to be an interesting series. The Knicks adjusted to the Pacers defense, now lets see what further adjustments Frank Vogel will make. He's a very good coach, I expect he'll give the Knicks something to adjust to in Game 3.

[Starter]

Great win for the Knicks last night. The 30-2 run in the 4th was epic, and Melo's unselfish team game, which also resulted in 30+ points, was sweet. Props to Pablo Prigioni and Iman Shumpert for their continued excellent play, and Kenyon Martin continues to provide huge value off the bench. Frank Vogel threw in the towel unusually early, with over 5 minutes left in the game, which provided the rare scene of both Hansbrough brothers sharing an NBA court. I also happily caught a glimpse of Miles, in a black suit, striding off the court at the end of the game.

This will continue to be an interesting series. The Knicks adjusted to the Pacers defense, now lets see what further adjustments Frank Vogel will make. He's a very good coach, I expect he'll give the Knicks something to adjust to in Game 3.

I'll be interested to see if Jason Kidd scores in Game 3. He's incredibly gone six straight games now without scoring a point, and it's not like he's not playing or anything, he gets like 22 mpg. That said, he's provided countless intangibles during that time.

When the Knicks are really rolling with all those point guards, it's so much more effective and aesthetically pleasing than Carmelo jacking up shots on isolation possessions. If anything illustrates how well Shumpert's knee is coming along, it's that insane follow-dunk he had, not to mention a very solid game. I still think the Pacers are right there -- as they were for 70 percent of the game -- but man, when everything's clicking, the Knicks can be pretty darn impressive.

[Billy Dat]

I still think the Pacers are right there -- as they were for 70 percent of the game

Yessir, I agree. I really respect Vogel and expect a lot of countering throughout the series. Should be fun. For what its worth, I am astounded every time Hibbert hits one of those hooks that he releases from around his waist. I am also very impressed with Lance Stephenson - I would have sworn he was going to be a one-and-done bust.

[Jderf]

I am also very impressed with Lance Stephenson - I would have sworn he was going to be a one-and-done bust.

He is one of the better illustrations of why the one-and-done rule is bad for everyone but draft scouts. If there was ever someone that most belonged in the NBA rather than the NCAA, it would be him -- in terms of playing style, body type, and -- most importantly -- mentality.

[Duvall]

It is still very early in the postseason, but it is possible that the Bulls may have done the rest of the league a grave disservice in Game 1.

[WillJ]

Pretty awesome +/- stats for Shane tonight.

[Starter]

It is still very early in the postseason, but it is possible that the Bulls may have done the rest of the league a grave disservice in Game 1.

My sense is that the Bulls' gutsy, unlikely victory in Game 1 will resonate like the Sixers' Game 1 win in the 2001 finals, and like that win, will be the only one they get.

[CDu]

My sense is that the Bulls' gutsy, unlikely victory in Game 1 will resonate like the Sixers' Game 1 win in the 2001 finals, and like that win, will be the only one they get.

It will certainly be the only win they get if Deng and Hinrich do not return. You simply can't expect to beat the Heat with only 6 guys playing meaningful minutes. Nor can you expect Jimmy Butler to play 48 minutes, cover James whenever he's in the game, and still provide big production offensively. Nor can you count on your 3rd string PG and 2nd string SG to carry the offensive load every night.

I felt the Heat would win this series in 4 or 5. Now, I think it'll happen in 5 (if Deng/Hinrich don't return) or 6 (if they do return).

Still, as a Bulls fan, I have nothing but praise for the 6 guys going out there to win back-to-back road games against higher-seeded opponents (one of which came against the best team in the NBA). Just a tough, tough group of guys with a great coach and great gameplan.

[Billy Dat]

Pretty awesome +/- stats for Shane tonight.

Excellent related article

"Shane Battier and the nuances of basketball"
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/17593/shane-battier-and-the-nuances-of-basketball

[WillJ]

Excellent related article

"Shane Battier and the nuances of basketball"
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/17593/shane-battier-and-the-nuances-of-basketball


Thanks - an awesome article. One thing I like about ESPN's basketball coverage is that a bunch of their writers are getting into the nitty-gritty of strategy and statistics. Love it - and I guess Shane does, too.

[Billy Dat]

Thanks - an awesome article. One thing I like about ESPN's basketball coverage is that a bunch of their writers are getting into the nitty-gritty of strategy and statistics. Love it - and I guess Shane does, too.

The maturation of the advanced statistics field combined with a variety of outlets making those stats available (NBA.com, 82 games, ESPN, etc.), plus the database of video available to these writers, per Synergy sports, and new stats being tracked by the multi-camera systems created by SportsVU, is responsible for the revolution in NBA writing you are noticing. Tom Haberstroh, the author of that Shane piece, is stepping into the large void created when John Hollinger, creator of the PER advanced stat, got hired by the Grizzlies as their new GM mid-season. Talk about a crazy route - from advanced stats guru to ESPN NBA writer to NBA GM. But, this modern crop of young NBA writers, who use advanced stats and video to explain to us exactly what is happening on the court, are raising the bar to the point where it is possible for them to be hired by NBA teams - which I guess is a path first blazed by Baseball Abstract creator and advanced stats godhead Bill James, currently employed by the BoSawx.

Anyway, I can't touch this subject without my required Zach Lowe plug, the guy who I think does what you described better than anyone around...here's his latest on the explosion of Steph Curry since the David Lee injury in Game 1 of the playoffs

"The New Stephen Curry: How the Warriors' Super-Shooter Has Transformed His Game in the Playoffs"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/61766/the-new-stephen-curry-how-the-warriors-super-shooter-has-transformed-his-game-in-the-playoffs

[WillJ]

"The New Stephen Curry: How the Warriors' Super-Shooter Has Transformed His Game in the Playoffs"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/61766/the-new-stephen-curry-how-the-warriors-super-shooter-has-transformed-his-game-in-the-playoffs

Thanks for the link - I love Zach Lowe.

[JasonEvans]

Excellent related article

"Shane Battier and the nuances of basketball"
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/17593/shane-battier-and-the-nuances-of-basketball

Hasn't it almost become passe to talk about how Shane Battier influences the game while not impacting the boxscore at all? It is almost like you are not allowed to be a truly smart basketball commentator unless you write an article about how no one notices that Shane Battier is, in the words of the very first of these articles, "the no stat all-star."

Still, I love every one of these. Heck, if I had any say in it, when Shane's name came up he'd get my vote for the Hall of Fame. He is the epitome of "go the little things, the things that cause teams to win" players. He's the greatest ever at these subtle but important things. Why shouldn't he be in the HOF?

-Jason "if he wants to, Shane will be an amazing coach some day... but I bet he has his mind on other things than hoops when he is done playing" Evans

[Duvall]

When did the Bulls hire Seth Greenberg as a coaching consultant?

[Newton_14]

When did the Bulls hire Seth Greenberg as a coaching consultant?


They have gone rogue Duvall. The physicality in this series, including pushing, shoving, tripping, you name it has been bizarre.

[brevity]

Heck, if I had any say in it, when Shane's name came up he'd get my vote for the Hall of Fame. He is the epitome of "go the little things, the things that cause teams to win" players. He's the greatest ever at these subtle but important things. Why shouldn't he be in the HOF?

It's a reach, but note how Springfield covers all of basketball, and not just the NBA. Battier's candidacy would include his amateur accomplishments.

That said, it's a tall order for Springfield to essentially re-define what it means to have an HOF pro career by looking past all traditional measures. Has it happened in baseball? Assuming it hasn't, it might be interesting to see if sabermetric measures of greatness can eventually translate to Cooperstown.

[theAlaskanBear]

They have gone rogue Duvall. The physicality in this series, including pushing, shoving, tripping, you name it has been bizarre.

I pull for the Bulls. But I turned the game off last night after the Nazr shove on Lebron (which came just minutes after the ridiculous Noah shove on Birdman). I may not watch another Bulls game this series.

1. Thats a stupid foul. Bulls have the number on D, Lebron looks like he is going to pull it back and reset the offense. Nazr wraps him up from behind in a head-scratcher.
2. The Bulls are really lacking Rose's leadership and demeanor. Noah has assumed leadership of the team, and has shown himself to be too immature and uncontrolled. He is looking to start fights. Taj Gibson is just as bad...his tantrum in the paint after some contact is probably what caused Nazr to foul LeBron.

The Pacers tried this against the Heat last year. It didn't work then and it wont work now. At what point do you realize you cannot bully the Heat into submission and play solid, tough, BUT CLEAN basketball.

Also, I have been really impressed with Butler...and his composure and play have been the complete opposite of the shenanigans the last two games. The Bulls have a keeper.

[Jderf]

Excellent related article

"Shane Battier and the nuances of basketball"
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/17593/shane-battier-and-the-nuances-of-basketball


Interesting. I can't help but wonder what would happen if they started recording block outs on Duke box scores -- either internally or on GoDuke.com. Just being aware of the metric, alongside all the other stats you focus on, must have some kind of effect focus-wise. I'd definitely be curious to see at least some school experiment with that.

On a side note, I wonder what Mason could have done last year if he had actually blocked out here and there... 13 rebounds a game? 15? Considering he rarely ever did it, it's actually pretty remarkable he pulled down as many boards as he did. That's athleticism for you.

[jimsumner]

I pull for the Bulls. But I turned the game off last night after the Nazr shove on Lebron (which came just minutes after the ridiculous Noah shove on Birdman). I may not watch another Bulls game this series.

1. Thats a stupid foul. Bulls have the number on D, Lebron looks like he is going to pull it back and reset the offense. Nazr wraps him up from behind in a head-scratcher.
2. The Bulls are really lacking Rose's leadership and demeanor. Noah has assumed leadership of the team, and has shown himself to be too immature and uncontrolled. He is looking to start fights. Taj Gibson is just as bad...his tantrum in the paint after some contact is probably what caused Nazr to foul LeBron.

The Pacers tried this against the Heat last year. It didn't work then and it wont work now. At what point do you realize you cannot bully the Heat into submission and play solid, tough, BUT CLEAN basketball.

Also, I have been really impressed with Butler...and his composure and play have been the complete opposite of the shenanigans the last two games. The Bulls have a keeper.

I agree re: the Muhammad foul. Just head-scratchingly bizarre. Was he trying to intimidate James? Did he just lose it? Did he think all three refs had been suddenly blinded, along with the replay cameras?

[Starter]

I agree re: the Muhammad foul. Just head-scratchingly bizarre. Was he trying to intimidate James? Did he just lose it? Did he think all three refs had been suddenly blinded, along with the replay cameras?

I think this Wojnarowski column illuminates the situation a bit.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--bulls-mock-lebron-james-for-flopping--find-fuel-in-conspiracy-072116737.html

[cato]

I can't believe Thibs and others have the nerve to accuse James of flopping. I lost a lot of respect for him when I saw that quote.

[CDu]

I think this Wojnarowski column illuminates the situation a bit.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--bulls-mock-lebron-james-for-flopping--find-fuel-in-conspiracy-072116737.html

It is essentially this. Th Bulls play physical. They don't get cheated when they commit a foul. The Heat take exception to ANY contact. In Wade's case he will even whine after NOT getting fouled .

In Game 2 things got chippy. Wade threw the ball at Belinelli after a routine foul but didn't get ejected. A line got crossed in that game (both ways) for sure.

In game 3, Noah overreacted to Anderson landing on Robinson. And James overreacted on Mohammad's foul, slinging Mohammad to the floor. Both plays warranted (and received) techs. Then Mohammad overreacted and shoved James. Should have been a tech. If you don't toss Wade for throwing the ball at a player, you shouldn't toss Mohammad for the retaliatory shove on James.

I am not proud of the Bulls for losing their cool. But they have been getting the short end of the stick with the officiating in this series, and they are sick of Miami whining as though the Heat are the ones getting wronged on the court. It started to boil over in game 2 and continued in game 3.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail moving forward. It is a shame that the techs are marring what is otherwise an amazing story. The Bulls, with only 6.5 useful players and relying on their 3rd string PG and 2nd string SG, have gone toe to toe with the best team in the league for 2 of 3 games. And they have done so while consistently getting a raw deal from the refs.

[cato]

Then Mohammad overreacted and shoved James. Should have been a tech. If you don't toss Wade for throwing the ball at a player, you shouldn't toss Mohammad for the retaliatory shove on James.

I am astounded anyone can work up the courage to feel aggrieved about this. Dude lost it and shoved another player in retaliation during a deadball situation right in front of the ref! You can't complain about getting tossed when you do that. You just can't.

It's too bad. I used to like the Bulls, and Luol is one of my favorite players ever, but I am really getting sick of the whining.

[CDu]

I am astounded anyone can work up the courage to feel aggrieved about this. Dude lost it and shoved another player in retaliation during a deadball situation right in front of the ref! You can't complain about getting tossed when you do that. You just can't.

It's too bad. I used to like the Bulls, and Luol is one of my favorite players ever, but I am really getting sick of the whining.

I find it amusing that anyone could call the Bulls whiners, ESPECIALLY when juxtaposed against, by far, the whiniest team in the NBA in the Heat. Honestly, I am not all that upset that Nazr got tossed (though I do feel it was only worth a tech compared to the rest of the stuff in these playoffs). I am just annoyed that Wade wasn't tossed in Game 2 for literally throwing the ball at another player.

[Duvall]

I find it amusing that anyone could call the Bulls whiners...

Did you read the Wojnarowski column? There was nothing BUT whining there.

[Des Esseintes]

I find it amusing that anyone could call the Bulls whiners, ESPECIALLY when juxtaposed against, by far, the whiniest team in the NBA in the Heat. Honestly, I am not all that upset that Nazr got tossed (though I do feel it was only worth a tech compared to the rest of the stuff in these playoffs). I am just annoyed that Wade wasn't tossed in Game 2 for literally throwing the ball at another player.

I don't know, man. That whole sequence looked like it came straight from the Paul Hewitt playbook. There are NFL corners who hit receivers less physically than Mohammed's attempted tackle of James on that break--and the tackle wasn't even the part to get special prosecutorial notice! They're your team, and if they were mine, I'd make my bones with it too. But they're not my team, and it's hard to see how this stuff belongs on a basketball court.

I also hate when end-of-the-benchers attack the other team's star. If there is going to be violence, it should be among players of equivalent stature.

[CDu]

Did you read the Wojnarowski column? There was nothing BUT whining there.

I read the column. I have also watched this series and the history between these teams. The Bulls are tired of the Heat whining their way into all the calls and overreacting to the slightest contact (for years) and now they are fighting back in this series. That they are finally complaining (when the Heat have done so for years, despite being continually protected by the refs) says a lot.

[CDu]

I don't know, man. That whole sequence looked like it came straight from the Paul Hewitt playbook. There are NFL corners who hit receivers less physically than Mohammed's attempted tackle of James on that break--and the tackle wasn't even the part to get special prosecutorial notice! They're your team, and if they were mine, I'd make my bones with it too. But they're not my team, and it's hard to see how this stuff belongs on a basketball court.

I also hate when end-of-the-benchers attack the other team's star. If there is going to be violence, it should be among players of equivalent stature.

That is some serious hyperbole regarding Mohammad's foul. The he just grabbed him. Hardly a tackle, and nothing like James literally intentionally running through defenders' chests on fast breaks.

James's overreaction to that simple foul is typical of the Heat, and a big part of the problem. Foul them at all more firmly than a breath and you'd think the Heat player was hit with a bat.

[howardlander]

I am astounded anyone can work up the courage to feel aggrieved about this. Dude lost it and shoved another player in retaliation during a deadball situation right in front of the ref! You can't complain about getting tossed when you do that. You just can't.

It's too bad. I used to like the Bulls, and Luol is one of my favorite players ever, but I am really getting sick of the whining.

Yeah, I have to agree here. This is 100% an ejection each and every time. Lebron wasn't even looking at Mohammed, he was still arguing with the ref about his technical (which I was not sure he deserved) totally defenseless and a 260 lb guy shoved him as hard as he could. It's just not a basketball play in any sense of the term and the NBA is neither the NFL or NHL. I don't think Mohammed will be suspended for game 4, but I'd at least consider it if I was making the decision. I'm sure some will disagree, but that is the kind of a play that could have started a brawl and it needs to be strongly discouraged.

Howard

[CDu]

Yeah, I have to agree here. This is 100% an ejection each and every time. Lebron wasn't even looking at Mohammed, he was still arguing with the ref about his technical (which I was not sure he deserved) totally defenseless and a 260 lb guy shoved him as hard as he could. It's just not a basketball play in any sense of the term and the NBA is neither the NFL or NHL. I don't think Mohammed will be suspended for game 4, but I'd at least consider it if I was making the decision. I'm sure some will disagree, but that is the kind of a play that could have started a brawl and it needs to be strongly discouraged.

Howard

The same can be said of Wade throwing the ball at Belinelli. Totally unacceptable. Should have merited an ejection, as much or more than Nazr's shove. It is simply not a balanced playing field out there with regard to the officiating. The Heat have, through their constant whining, swayed the officiating in their favor, and the Bulls have gotten fed up with it.

[WillJ]

I like both teams and I've found the Bulls to be really enjoyable - the Robinson-Bellinelli combo is awesome, and I love Jimmy Butler, Boozer and especially Noah. But I thought a) Mohammed deserved a flagrant for the initial contact, b) James did not deserve a T, and c) Mohammed definitely deserved the ejection. I missed some of the other action - Wade throwing the ball at Bellinelli, Noah's T in game 3 - so I can't place the calls in context. But I thought that, if anything, Mohammed got off easy on that play.

[CDu]

I like both teams and I've found the Bulls to be really enjoyable - the Robinson-Bellinelli combo is awesome, and I love Jimmy Butler, Boozer and especially Noah. But I thought a) Mohammed deserved a flagrant for the initial contact, b) James did not deserve a T, and c) Mohammed definitely deserved the ejection. I missed some of the other action - Wade throwing the ball at Bellinelli, Noah's T in game 3 - so I can't place the calls in context. But I thought that, if anything, Mohammed got off easy on that play.

I disagree on the Mohammad foul being flagrant. James made it look worse by his flailing and throwing Mohammad to the ground. I am not at all upset that he got ejected for the shove. I am just saying that, when compared to the stuff that Miami gets away with (Wade throwing the ball at Belinelli in game 2; Wade shoving Hamilton into the stands last year in an identical fashion to Mohammad's shove; Chalmers grabbing Noah by the neck in game 2) without an ejection (often without any penalty at all), the ejection was steeper than Miami gets for similar violations.

Also, I have grown weary of James and Wade whining about the physicality (especially when they whine about minimal contact) when James has no problem running full-steam through a defender. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to try to impose your physical strength on the opponent like James and Wade do, you shouldn't whine when teams return the favor. It is like the Heat expect opponents to just let the Heat run roughshod over them, and when a team doesn't comply they get whiny.

[g-money]

I can't believe Thibs and others have the nerve to accuse James of flopping. I lost a lot of respect for him when I saw that quote.

While I respect the heck out of Thibodeau for what he's done with a depleted Bulls team this season, in that press conference he came across as a magician who's run out of tricks. A flop? That was his assessment??

Sorry, but what I saw was a tenth man coming in to try to bait the best player in the game into a fight like a bad episode of "The Real World".

Ironically, one could draw parallels between this series and the Bulls/Pistons and Bulls/Knicks series from the 80's/90's. Those slugfests turned me into a Jordan fan, despite his ties to the wrong shade of blue.

[CDu]

While I respect the heck out of Thibodeau for what he's done with a depleted Bulls team this season, in that press conference he came across as a magician who's run out of tricks. A flop? That was his assessment??

Sorry, but what I saw was a tenth man coming in to try to bait the best player in the game into a fight like a bad episode of "The Real World".

Ironically, one could draw parallels between this series and the Bulls/Pistons and Bulls/Knicks series from the 80's/90's. Those slugfests turned me into a Jordan fan, despite his ties to the wrong shade of blue.

I agree that it was not a flop. It was James getting caught off balance when a big guy shoved him. And I suspect Thibs agrees. He was just using the opportunity to try to work the refs and galvanize his team.

However, I disagree with the assessment that it was a "called shot" or anything similarly nefarious. For one thing, it doesn't make much sense. The depleted Bulls are already short on bodies, so it wouldn't make sense to lose another player (even one that only gets around 10mpg) just for the off-chance that James would be dumb. For another, the Bulls have consistently gotten harsher punishment for similar transgressions, so there is no reason to assume that James would ever get ejected (same as with Jordan).

I think it was simply a case of the following: Mohammad fouling to prevent a fast break (after a Miami no-call that led to the transition opportunity); James overreacting to the foul, slinging Mohammad to the ground; and Mohammad losing his cool and shoving James.

[tommy]

I agree that it was not a flop. It was James getting caught off balance when a big guy shoved him. And I suspect Thibs agrees. He was just using the opportunity to try to work the refs and galvanize his team.

However, I disagree with the assessment that it was a "called shot" or anything similarly nefarious. For one thing, it doesn't make much sense. The depleted Bulls are already short on bodies, so it wouldn't make sense to lose another player (even one that only gets around 10mpg) just for the off-chance that James would be dumb. For another, the Bulls have consistently gotten harsher punishment for similar transgressions, so there is no reason to assume that James would ever get ejected (same as with Jordan).

I think it was simply a case of the following: Mohammad fouling to prevent a fast break (after a Miami no-call that led to the transition opportunity); James overreacting to the foul, slinging Mohammad to the ground; and Mohammad losing his cool and shoving James.

I didn't even think what James did to Mohammad constitutes "slinging" him to the ground. He pushed him off as they were getting entangled. But I didn't see any malice in James' action at all. He didn't even extend his arms. He was pretty much just disentangling himself and Mohammad went down awkwardly. I think Mohammad got embarrassed and way, way overreacted and saw an opportunity to "represent." Pushing James down like that was a punk, schoolyard move, and he deserved to be tossed.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

So, I'm a Heat fan, and not entirely sure how much I have to add to this discussion at this point...but, hey, that's never stopped me before.

First, I agree the Heat have a tendency to whine, but I'd place the blame for about 80% of that at Wade's feet. He's the biggest whiner in the league. Lebron whines on occasion, but I don't think it's that consistent of a thing with him. Of course, it's Lebron, though, so people are going to call him on it every time. If Wade is the whiniest player in the league, Kevin Durant might be a close #2, but he seems to get a free pass for whatever reason. The Heat are just polarizing...it comes with the territory.

I admire the Bulls for their toughness and their effort, but the adulation they've been getting is a little funny to me. They're trying to drag these games down into the mud, make it ugly. This is "Bad Boys" style basketball, or late 90's Knicks, and I don't remember too many people expressing much fondness for those teams. You don't see this style of basketball much anymore, and I think the league is better for it.

As for the James/Mohammed situation, I'm going to side with James here, but since I'm an unapologetic Lebron fan, I doubt anyone is interested in hearing what I have to say about it. But...I just want to say...one of the many reasons I admire Lebron is his demeanor. I know he has a couple of technicals in this series, but I wouldn't say he really lost his cool in either situation. I'm guessing there are a large number of NBA players, even stars (like, for instance, Carmelo) who, if shoved to the ground, would've gotten right back up and made a big scene. Lebron's too smart for that. He is consistently the smartest player on the floor, and neither the Bulls or anyone else is going to be able to drag him down into that muck. The King is above all that nonsense.

[CDu]

So, I'm a Heat fan, and not entirely sure how much I have to add to this discussion at this point...but, hey, that's never stopped me before.

First, I agree the Heat have a tendency to whine, but I'd place the blame for about 80% of that at Wade's feet. He's the biggest whiner in the league. Lebron whines on occasion, but I don't think it's that consistent of a thing with him. Of course, it's Lebron, though, so people are going to call him on it every time. If Wade is the whiniest player in the league, Kevin Durant might be a close #2, but he seems to get a free pass for whatever reason. The Heat are just polarizing...it comes with the territory.

I admire the Bulls for their toughness and their effort, but the adulation they've been getting is a little funny to me. They're trying to drag these games down into the mud, make it ugly. This is "Bad Boys" style basketball, or late 90's Knicks, and I don't remember too many people expressing much fondness for those teams. You don't see this style of basketball much anymore, and I think the league is better for it.

As for the James/Mohammed situation, I'm going to side with James here, but since I'm an unapologetic Lebron fan, I doubt anyone is interested in hearing what I have to say about it. But...I just want to say...one of the many reasons I admire Lebron is his demeanor. I know he has a couple of technicals in this series, but I wouldn't say he really lost his cool in either situation. I'm guessing there are a large number of NBA players, even stars (like, for instance, Carmelo) who, if shoved to the ground, would've gotten right back up and made a big scene. Lebron's too smart for that. He is consistently the smartest player on the floor, and neither the Bulls or anyone else is going to be able to drag him down into that muck. The King is above all that nonsense.

I actually agree with almost all of this (especially the part about Wade - he has become insufferable). The only thing I disagree with is the part about the Bulls trying to drag this into the mud. I think they are merely not giving soft fouls and the Heat aren 't taking kindly to it.

The Bulls aren't a dirty team. They aren't a bunch of thugs. They are just a team that gives full effort all the time, unlike the Heat. The Bulls simply aren't going to give the Heat anything easy. If that means fouling, they'll foul. And since the Heat are so strong (especially James), sometimes that means fouling hard. But (aside from the shove of James and Anderson), what they have done has been above board. The Heat just haven't reacted well to an inferior team playing scrappy and not rolling over. And that has led to chippiness on both sides.

I do commend James on not losing his head, though I do think Wade's whining has rubbed off on James a bit. He's become a bit of a bully out there, both to opponents (being very physical) and officials (complaining about the slightedt of fouls at times). It isn't nearly on Wade's level of course. But it has certainly been noticeable.

I don't commend Noah's shove of Anderson, but I understand it. The Heat have absolutely roughed up Nate Robinson since Game 1, and Anderson's foul probably looked like more of the same. Noah lost his cool there. I don't commend Nazr shoving James, but I also don't think there was any ulterior motive there. Those two shoves weren't the best moments for the Bulls, but I don't think it is fair to call them the Bad Boys reincarnate.

[JasonEvans]

I also hate when end-of-the-benchers attack the other team's star. If there is going to be violence, it should be among players of equivalent stature.

In that case, the Bulls have no one who can attack James ;)

Ha! Just kidding. I think the Bulls are playing with remarkable passion and toughness. It is a real testament to their team. It would have been fun to see the real Bulls -- with Deng and Hinrich and perhaps even Rose -- taking on the Heat. That is a matchup I look forward to in years to come.

-Jason "I hope the Bulls take game four -- just to make the Heat sweat a bit" Evans

[theAlaskanBear]

I actually agree with almost all of this (especially the part about Wade - he has become insufferable). The only thing I disagree with is the part about the Bulls trying to drag this into the mud. I think they are merely not giving soft fouls and the Heat aren 't taking kindly to it.

The Bulls aren't a dirty team. They aren't a bunch of thugs. They are just a team that gives full effort all the time, unlike the Heat. The Bulls simply aren't going to give the Heat anything easy. If that means fouling, they'll foul. And since the Heat are so strong (especially James), sometimes that means fouling hard. But (aside from the shove of James and Anderson), what they have done has been above board. The Heat just haven't reacted well to an inferior team playing scrappy and not rolling over. And that has led to chippiness on both sides.

I do commend James on not losing his head, though I do think Wade's whining has rubbed off on James a bit. He's become a bit of a bully out there, both to opponents (being very physical) and officials (complaining about the slightedt of fouls at times). It isn't nearly on Wade's level of course. But it has certainly been noticeable.

I don't commend Noah's shove of Anderson, but I understand it. The Heat have absolutely roughed up Nate Robinson since Game 1, and Anderson's foul probably looked like more of the same. Noah lost his cool there. I don't commend Nazr shoving James, but I also don't think there was any ulterior motive there. Those two shoves weren't the best moments for the Bulls, but I don't think it is fair to call them the Bad Boys reincarnate.

I love the toughness of the Bulls as well, CDu, but I think they have gone a bit too far in the series. I think the frustration of playing undermanned all year, and then getting further injured in the playoffs has caused a lot of the physical play this series because they know they can't keep with Heat. Watching Deng and Heinrich go get hurt for the Heat series has to be maddening, because with them they have a shot.

But look at what you just said, about the Heat roughing up Nate this series....the Heat have played the same tough, physical D you applaud the Bulls for, but when the Heat do it, it is "roughing up" Nate.

You are correct in calling out Wade, but the LeBron nonsense is ridiculous. He gets hit and gets hit hard on a consistent basis and just plays through it because he is so strong. There are a lot of whistles that are just swallowed because he has the body to absorb the contact...the only time i see him complain or get frustrated is when he takes a consistent beating. Since leaving Cleveland James' free throw attempts per game have dropped from 10 per game down to 7 per game, despite playing more in the post, being more aggressive offensively.

Noah and Gibson need to cool it, missed calls are a part of the game. I don't remember any Bulls fans complaining about getting the benefit of the calls when the Bulls ended the Heat streak.

[moonpie23]

let's have a show of hands....

who here thinks Mohammad's push could actually send Bron Bron to the court like that?

[Starter]

let's have a show of hands....

who here thinks Mohammad's push could actually send Bron Bron to the court like that?

Haha... 6-8, 260 doesn't go as far as it used to, is what you're saying? It's weird, he looks like he's built out of cinder blocks.

I've long worried about one thing with Steph Curry: his terribly flimsy ankles. It seems like he's constantly playing through one sprain or another. I think if there's one thing that prevents him from reaching the absolute elite levels of the sport that his unique talent and demeanor dictate he should get to, it's that. I'm hoping one of these seasons, he shows up and these issues are in the past somehow.

[theAlaskanBear]

let's have a show of hands....

who here thinks Mohammad's push could actually send Bron Bron to the court like that?

nazr Mohammad is 6' 10'' and 250 pounds. furthermore, nazr stepped into the push and had momentum. the idea that nazr would not be able to push Lebron over is ludicrous.

[Starter]

nazr Mohammad is 6' 10'' and 250 pounds. furthermore, nazr stepped into the push and had momentum. the idea that nazr would not be able to push Lebron over is ludicrous.

LeBron looked like he might have embellished the fall just a bit. That said, he wasn't looking at Mohammed and surely wasn't expecting the shove, so it's plausible he'd go down hard.

Any way you slice it, LeBron is totally awesome.

[JasonEvans]

LeBron looked like he might have embellished the fall just a bit. That said, he wasn't looking at Mohammed and surely wasn't expecting the shove, so it's plausible he'd go down hard.

Any way you slice it, LeBron is totally awesome.

Plus, Lebron weight seemed to be moving away from Nazr.

Show of hands, if you push someone in an NBA games with both hands right in front of a ref, should you be ejected?

To me, that is the only question here. I think Nazr gets the boot whether Lebron goes down or not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SowvPA4lIo

I am a neutral party here. I like both the Bulls and the Heat and have no special love for nor hatred of Lebron. Muhammed clearly went too far and deserved to be ejected. I fail to see why there is continued discussion of this. Tibs calling Lebron out for flopping really lowers my opinion of TT. I don't see how it helps him or his team to poke the bear any further.

-Jason "I fully expect Lebron to have one of 'those games' against the Bulls in this series... a triple double (or close) where it is clear that he owns the game and no one can do anything about it" Evans

[CDu]

I love the toughness of the Bulls as well, CDu, but I think they have gone a bit too far in the series. I think the frustration of playing undermanned all year, and then getting further injured in the playoffs has caused a lot of the physical play this series because they know they can't keep with Heat. Watching Deng and Heinrich go get hurt for the Heat series has to be maddening, because with them they have a shot.

But look at what you just said, about the Heat roughing up Nate this series....the Heat have played the same tough, physical D you applaud the Bulls for, but when the Heat do it, it is "roughing up" Nate.

You are correct in calling out Wade, but the LeBron nonsense is ridiculous. He gets hit and gets hit hard on a consistent basis and just plays through it because he is so strong. There are a lot of whistles that are just swallowed because he has the body to absorb the contact...the only time i see him complain or get frustrated is when he takes a consistent beating. Since leaving Cleveland James' free throw attempts per game have dropped from 10 per game down to 7 per game, despite playing more in the post, being more aggressive offensively.

Noah and Gibson need to cool it, missed calls are a part of the game. I don't remember any Bulls fans complaining about getting the benefit of the calls when the Bulls ended the Heat streak.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, as I disagree (to varying degrees) with almost everything you said in your post. It is just not worth discussing further when our viewpoints are so different (and when it would literally take going through game-by-game replays over the last two seasons to sway anyone's opinion.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Lebron went down because he was pushed very hard. I agree Mohammed might not have been ejected had Lebron not fallen, but only because that would have meant Mohammed didn't push him as hard. It was a very forceful push, and I find it frankly impossible to believe that Lebron flopped there. He wasn't even looking at Mohammed when he was pushed, and there's just no way he processed what was going on quick enough to decide to fall down as he was being pushed. Lebron's smart, but an intentional flop here would require mental processing at a superhuman speed. And the idea that a man of equal size could not push Lebron over when he's not paying attention is imparting to Lebron either superhuman strength, balance, or some kind of supergravitational force affixing his feet to the ground.

We could argue all day whether the Bulls have crossed some kind of line in terms of the dirtiness of their overall play. Honestly, outside of a couple of much-discussed incidents, I don't really think they have crossed that line, but they are definitely playing a very physical brand of physical, and occasionally fouling with more force than is really called for. But I think this has mostly been within acceptable boundaries. I haven't heard many Heat fans complaining about their overall play. This new thing, though, where they are blaming the refs for their woes has gotten ridiculous. I was at Game 2 and sat perplexed, along with many of my neighbors in the stands, as to how the Bulls could have so much ire for the refs when they're down 40. I'm sure they were very frustrated in that situation, but it wasn't a good look.

[niveklaen]

Plus, Lebron weight seemed to be moving away from Nazr.

Show of hands, if you push someone in an NBA games with both hands right in front of a ref, should you be ejected?

To me, that is the only question here. I think Nazr gets the boot whether Lebron goes down or not.

I am a neutral party here. I like both the Bulls and the Heat and have no special love for nor hatred of Lebron. Muhammed clearly went too far and deserved to be ejected. I fail to see why there is continued discussion of this. Tibs calling Lebron out for flopping really lowers my opinion of TT. I don't see how it helps him or his team to poke the bear any further.

-Jason "I fully expect Lebron to have one of 'those games' against the Bulls in this series... a triple double (or close) where it is clear that he owns the game and no one can do anything about it" Evans

Why hate on Tyler Thornton because of something Tibs did? ;)

[moonpie23]

my reverse sarcasm didn't seem to fly........what i was trying to point out was the amount of force that Nazr used was PLENTY to get him ejected......

[Starter]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing? He seems to me to be the prototypical "better in the pros" player, and that kind of makes sense given the aura he projected in college, right? I'll tell you, between Barnes, Curry (assuming his ankle doesn't melt down) and Klay, this is one group of wing players. It's just a shame David Lee got hurt; he fits so perfectly how they play. But Bogut is filling in nicely. I figured with Westbrook done, the Spurs were the best team in the West, but damned if the Warriors aren't giving them a heck of a struggle. I mean, they should have won Game 1!

[Des Esseintes]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing? He seems to me to be the prototypical "better in the pros" player, and that kind of makes sense given the aura he projected in college, right? I'll tell you, between Barnes, Curry (assuming his ankle doesn't melt down) and Klay, this is one group of wing players. It's just a shame David Lee got hurt; he fits so perfectly how they play. But Bogut is filling in nicely. I figured with Westbrook done, the Spurs were the best team in the West, but damned if the Warriors aren't giving them a heck of a struggle. I mean, they should have won Game 1!

Lee is such a defensive minus. I'm not saying they're better without him, but the loss is less than one might think. Especially if Bogut keeps inching back to the guy he once was.

[luvdahops]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing? He seems to me to be the prototypical "better in the pros" player, and that kind of makes sense given the aura he projected in college, right? I'll tell you, between Barnes, Curry (assuming his ankle doesn't melt down) and Klay, this is one group of wing players. It's just a shame David Lee got hurt; he fits so perfectly how they play. But Bogut is filling in nicely. I figured with Westbrook done, the Spurs were the best team in the West, but damned if the Warriors aren't giving them a heck of a struggle. I mean, they should have won Game 1!

A big part of HB's success in the playoffs is due to him playing - after Lee was hurt - a lot PF, where he presents more matchup problems and can find more space when opponents help too much on Curry and Thompson. As a SF, he lacks the quickness (especially first step-wise) and handle to create his own shot with any reliability, but that is far less true matched up against 4s. Defending the 4 also keeps him closer to home for defensive boards, where he has been pretty solid in the postseason.

Tons of credit to Mark Jackson for molding this unusual mix of guys to unexpected success in the regular season, and for successfully adapting their approach after Lee's injury.

[elvis14]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- HWMNBN has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing?

I'm guessing that a few of us noticed but were 1) hoping it would stop and 2) HWMNBN needs not be named. It'd be OK with me if Harry Skype missed his next 2000 shots.

That said, I'm really enjoying the play of Curry and the Warriors (despite the obvious 9F issue).

[BD80]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing? He seems to me to be the prototypical "better in the pros" player, ...

He just needed coaching ...

[Wander]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing?

I don't think there was ever much doubt that he'd be a good NBA player, just like he was a very good college player. The "much-maligned" part is that he seemed to honestly think he would be a Jordan/Lebron level guy.

[Newton_14]

Anyone notice that much-maligned -- including by me -- Harrison Barnes has become a legit threat and a big part of what the Warriors are doing? He seems to me to be the prototypical "better in the pros" player, and that kind of makes sense given the aura he projected in college, right? I'll tell you, between Barnes, Curry (assuming his ankle doesn't melt down) and Klay, this is one group of wing players. It's just a shame David Lee got hurt; he fits so perfectly how they play. But Bogut is filling in nicely. I figured with Westbrook done, the Spurs were the best team in the West, but damned if the Warriors aren't giving them a heck of a struggle. I mean, they should have won Game 1!

Well not quite. A caveat or two and clarifier or two..


A big part of HB's success in the playoffs is due to him playing - after Lee was hurt - a lot PF, where he presents more matchup problems and can find more space when opponents help too much on Curry and Thompson. As a SF, he lacks the quickness (especially first step-wise) and handle to create his own shot with any reliability, but that is far less true matched up against 4s. Defending the 4 also keeps him closer to home for defensive boards, where he has been pretty solid in the postseason.

This. Plus, Curry and Thompson draw so much defensive attention it leaves openings for HB to make shots. The one thing I think we all agreed on is the guy can make jumpshots, especially when left open. Creating off the dribble? Not so much. Negative. Nada


I don't think there was ever much doubt that he'd be a good NBA player, just like he was a very good college player. The "much-maligned" part is that he seemed to honestly think he would be a Jordan/Lebron level guy.

This in spades. He fancied himself as a 2-Guard/Shooting Guard like his hero Kobe, with the ability to shoot jumpers but also create off the dribble and score at will. Funny that his best position so far in his very short career, seems to actually be two floors down from SG at Power Forward. The thing is though, he is also several floors down from being "The Man" on the team.

He is a moderate athlete (good leaper/below avg quickness) with length, strength, and a good NBA jumpshot with a high release. Looks like that will translate into a long NBA career as a solid player, but likely not at an All Star/All NBA level.

I am still amazed that he was not able to dominate that night in the Sweet 16 against Ohio. That will always be one of those bizarre moments. Reggie Bullock saved their tails that night. Barnes looked lost. Yet he scored 26 in an NBA playoff game. Go figure.

[licc85]

Not really playoffs related, but an interesting read. I thought UK would be dominating in total player salary by now, but apparently, we're still in the lead: http://collegespun.com/big-east/syracuse/the-15-colleges-whose-alumni-made-the-most-money-in-the-nba-this-year

Not a bad recruiting pitch: "Our guys have consistently made the most money in the NBA. Period."

[Starter]

I don't think there was ever much doubt that he'd be a good NBA player, just like he was a very good college player. The "much-maligned" part is that he seemed to honestly think he would be a Jordan/Lebron level guy.

I wouldn't describe him as a very good college player. He was good, it's just that with his ability and pedigree, he should have done a whole lot better than he did. This isn't to say he wasn't an asset, it's just that given the tools he has and the bar he set for himself, I think we all expected more moments like that one 40-point game, especially after he stayed for his sophomore year. But after another 25-point game against the Spurs, this time on a night Curry and Klay couldn't do anything, I'd have to still believe his game and mentality translate better to the pros, especially with the better guard play on the next level. He's just a really tough matchup being that tall and shooting it the way he does. I don't know if he'll be an All-Star -- I mean, we'll see -- but I think there's certainly reason to believe he's going to be a really good NBA player for quite a while.

With Knicks-Pacers, I'll always wonder how different these two teams would have looked had Dolan not usurped Walsh's autonomy and then chased him out of town. The Knicks are an ill-conceived, stolid group with a crony head coach. The Pacers are a wonderfully conceptualized, hard-nosed group that's murder to play against. No surprise, given the architects of each team.

[Billy Dat]

With Knicks-Pacers, I'll always wonder how different these two teams would have looked had Dolan not usurped Walsh's autonomy and then chased him out of town. The Knicks are an ill-conceived, stolid group with a crony head coach. The Pacers are a wonderfully conceptualized, hard-nosed group that's murder to play against. No surprise, given the architects of each team.

I have to nitpick your use of stolid, as the Knicks propensity to gesticulate wildly after every perceived missed foul call places them on the more animated side of the ledger:p

As your comment indicates, I think the series is as much about how well the Pacers play together, and thoroughly "know who they are", as it is about the Knicks subpar play. Their defense is great, and their offensive execution is precise. It helps a lot that they've been knocking down tons outside shots, not exactly something they are known for, but crisp ball movement and perfect spacing, combined with Hibbert and West as legit low block options, will make it hard for any defense to effectively cover all options. If the Knicks try and contain the bigs, Hill, Stephenson and George have been hurting them from deep. If they protect the 3, Hibbert has been doing work. They are just really impressive, as you say.

The Knicks were a streaky team this year, and I think the end of year streak gave us fans some false hope. It was bad timing for the flu to run through the team, but that's just a part of the story - we certainly can't complain considering what the Bulls are dealing with. Melo is trying to do it all by himself, and its hard to blame him, but we know that hero ball aint gonna get it done. I won't even touch the Chandler, Kidd, JR Smith axis - their play has really dropped off. I am pretty close to writing them off, but a Game 5 win at home, and some additional time for the flu bug to roll out, might put some wind in their sails.

But, it really looks like Miami v Indiana for the East belt.

[Billy Dat]

My hats off to the Bulls, CDu. That was an amazing effort this postseason. I wish the Knicks had the same ability to adjust to their circumstances.

[CDu]

My hats off to the Bulls, CDu. That was an amazing effort this postseason. I wish the Knicks had the same ability to adjust to their circumstances.

Thanks Billy Dat. I'm pretty proud of my team, even in defeat. They could have folded the tent at any point in the postseason, especially after Deng and Hinrich went down. But they rallied, won two big games against Brooklyn, and then came out and won a game (and almost two) against the vastly more talented Heat. Great coaching, great toughness, great determination, no quit. Just not enough talent to get over the hump.

Hopefully, Rose comes back full strength next year, Deng gets healthy and gets surgery on his bad wrist, and Noah gets his foot healthy. They'll have some tough decisions to make this offseason, and that will probably mean Nate Robinson exits stage left (and possibly Belinelli too). But Butler has really emerged as a player for the future, and could potentially be our long-awaited answer at SG.

Best of luck to your Knicks tonight. If the shots are falling, they can beat anyone.

[Billy Dat]

Best of luck to your Knicks tonight. If the shots are falling, they can beat anyone.

Sadly, this line made me laugh out loud as that is one Freedom Tower-sized IF. I appreciate the sentiment, though.

Nice work by the Griz to make the Western Finals. They are an interesting squad with the pieces to win it all in a manner not currently in vogue (read - they play BIG). Having never been on the stage they are stepping onto, I wonder how they will react? That's one advantage I think the Pacers have over the Knicks - they really played Miami well in the second round last year.

As for the Spurs v Warriors, an epic Game 6 tonight. I'd much rather watch the Warriors, even if I have to watch the Black Pidgeon, then the Spurs.

[CDu]

Sadly, this line made me laugh out loud as that is one Freedom Tower-sized IF. I appreciate the sentiment, though.

Yeah, the Knicks have to at times be really frustrating. As talented as Anthony and Smith are, they have a bit of Nate Robinson (on a better scale, of course) in them. They just aren't afraid to take a bad shot. When they're on, the Knicks can be glorious to watch. But Smith has really struggled in this series and Anthony just has some consistency issues.

The Knicks could really use a post scoring threat (I guess Anthony could do it if he wanted to do so), and they need a coach who can get Anthony and Smith to buy into a team-oriented offense (rather than isolation on every possession). They certainly have the role players to fit into an offensive system (I like Chandler, Martin, and Shumpert). But their two best players have just seemed perennially disinterested in running a team offense.


Nice work by the Griz to make the Western Finals. They are an interesting squad with the pieces to win it all in a manner not currently in vogue (read - they play BIG). Having never been on the stage they are stepping onto, I wonder how they will react? That's one advantage I think the Pacers have over the Knicks - they really played Miami well in the second round last year.

The Griz certainly benefited from facing OKC without Westbrook. His absence just put too much pressure on Durant to carry the load. Memphis is too good to beat when playing without one of your best players. I think they'll struggle with San Antonio. They can beat San Antonio, but the Spurs won't be intimidated by the size of the Griz, and the Spurs are MUCH better on the perimeter.


As for the Spurs v Warriors, an epic Game 6 tonight. I'd much rather watch the Warriors, even if I have to watch the Black Pidgeon, then the Spurs.

I agree. The Warriors are incredibly fun to watch. I don't think they have enough to get past the Spurs, who are perhaps the least-entertaining-but-best-coached team left in the playoffs.

[licc85]

Melo has been bad about shot selection and being too self absorbed in the past, but I'm not getting the criticism this year. He's playing on a team with like 1 and a half other offensive options. When he gets trapped with the ball, his teammates aren't even moving around most of the time and he gets forced into taking a shot. His offensive sidekick was supposed to be Amare, but he's basically useless on defense. Everyone on the entire roster is a 1 way player, meaning they are either a defensive player, and can't do anything on offense, or they are an offensive player who can't do anything on D.

I saw a play in the game 4 loss where Melo comes off a Chandler screen and gets double teamed immediately by Chandler's guy, but instead of diving to the rim, Chandler decides to just float out to to the free throw line and Melo is stuck on the wing with a double team. If Chandler is going to publicly criticize Melo for not sharing the ball, he needs to start making some plays.

Hoping the Knicks can hold on to this lead and win game 5.

[Billy Dat]

THE Knicks (or shall I say, 'we') got very lucky with this George Hill situation. The Pacers had zero time to prepare for his absence and it showed. It may turn the entire series if he is not cleared to play next game. The Pacers were so sloppy with the ball, especially in the 4th Q, and they missed 12 free throws, at least. Given a chance, Copeland provided some added offensive punch and energy, JR played pretty well. Felton was great. Melo had 28 but could have had 40. Knicks are still alive.


Melo has been bad about shot selection and being too self absorbed in the past, but I'm not getting the criticism this year. He's playing on a team with like 1 and a half other offensive options. When he gets trapped with the ball, his teammates aren't even moving around most of the time and he gets forced into taking a shot. His offensive sidekick was supposed to be Amare, but he's basically useless on defense. Everyone on the entire roster is a 1 way player, meaning they are either a defensive player, and can't do anything on offense, or they are an offensive player who can't do anything on D.

Hoping the Knicks can hold on to this lead and win game 5.

Melo gets too much criticism, but he does love isolations as he correctly thinks he can beat anyone one on one. When he gets that triple-threat, one dribble pull up action rolling, there usually no time for the help. But, every other time, he's facing second and third waves of D. I think Felton's played pretty great and Shumpert has played his best in the postseason, but those are not your classic guys to spot up for a 3 off a melo kick. Copeland is more that style, and he played well tonight (Novak is, too). I think Smith, Shumpert and Felton are all pretty good two ways players, but they, like Melo, also like to go one on one. Chandler should be diving to the rim every chance he gets. On to game 6!!!

[moonpie23]

I was sorry to see HWNSNBM get hurt last night. who threw him down on the floor?

[Billy Dat]

I was sorry to see HWNSNBM get hurt last night. who threw him down on the floor?

He jumped and flew into either Diaw or Duncan in a way where his legs were together, it was a hip to hip collision, but the Spurs player was planted and the effect was for the Pigeon to pivot on the hip axis with his legs heading upward and his head and torso headed downward. SMASH! He was on the floor for quite a while, I think because he cut his head open a bit and there was blood. It was a fairly nasty fall.

[Starter]

I'm not the biggest fan of Anthony's, but he definitely gets a bad rap. He destroyed everyone this year from the 4 spot; he hasn't been the same since a collision with KG screwed up his shoulder. (Non-shooting shoulder, but still, he is clearly impacted.) The Knicks have become far more one-dimensional for most of the playoffs, but if Carmelo were himself, it wouldn't matter a whole lot. I also suspect Melo being out of sorts is affecting how the whole team operates.

That said, this George Hill injury might just get the Knicks their opportunity to lose in 5 to the Heat. Augustin and Stephenson are miscast in the lead guard role. With Kidd finally not playing and Copeland finally getting his shot, this might be the break they need. It still won't be easy -- Indy was 30-11 at home and undefeated in the playoffs so far -- but if Hill isn't playing, they're far less intimidating.

[Billy Dat]

I'm not the biggest fan of Anthony's, but he definitely gets a bad rap. He destroyed everyone this year from the 4 spot; he hasn't been the same since a collision with KG screwed up his shoulder. (Non-shooting shoulder, but still, he is clearly impacted.) The Knicks have become far more one-dimensional for most of the playoffs, but if Carmelo were himself, it wouldn't matter a whole lot. I also suspect Melo being out of sorts is affecting how the whole team operates.

That said, this George Hill injury might just get the Knicks their opportunity to lose in 5 to the Heat. Augustin and Stephenson are miscast in the lead guard role. With Kidd finally not playing and Copeland finally getting his shot, this might be the break they need. It still won't be easy -- Indy was 30-11 at home and undefeated in the playoffs so far -- but if Hill isn't playing, they're far less intimidating.

While I was sad to see the Knicks lose, Game 6 was very entertaining. While George Hill's return wasn't notable for the quality of his play, he logged 42 minutes which allowed everyone else to play their natural positions, kept the regular rotation, and freed up Lance Stephenson to absolutely decimate the Knicks with 25 and 10. Granted, Stephenson's +/- was neutral, but it's hard to discount the punishment he was putting on the Knicks guards who were literally bouncing off of him as he bulled to the basket. I credit Frank Vogel with another adjustment as he had the Pacers play really up tempo.

But, the play of the game, which everyone has seen by now, was Hibbert's insane block of Melo's dunk at the rim. The Knicks were up 2, and there were still 5 minutes left, but it really felt like if Melo finished that play, the Knicks were going to win. Instead, the Pacers went on a run, Melo proceeded to miss shots or throw the ball away on about 5 consecutive possessions, and it was all over in a flash. I feel like that Hibbert block joins the Ewing missed lay-up and the Reggie Miller end of game offensive explosion as hallmarks of the Knicks v Pacers wars.

Before the season, as a fan, I wanted to see the Knicks reach the second round. Obviously, their play down the stretch of the season made one hope for more, but it was kind of fool's gold. They lost that mojo early in the playoffs and never fully got it back. Still, if Hibbert doesn't make that block, I think they win Game 6, and then win Game 7 at home. The vagaries of May. We'll see what happens this offseason, but we know it's gonna be Melo, STAT, Tyson, Ray Felton, Shumpert, Camby and Novak. Can Melo and STAT play together - the debate will continue. Many will say there is no debate - that the answer is no - but together they make over $43MM, so I hope something can be done.

It's hard to call this Pacers v Heat series because I don't think we've seen Miami's full effort. I am not saying that they didn't try hard against Chicago, but that series never got to real gut check time where the Heat's back was to the wall. I think they've got an extra gear, and I think they'll need it if the Pacers bring their A game. Hill, George, Hibbert, West, Stephenson is a LEGIT 5 on both ends of the court. I think Miami wins, but it will be interesting to see how it goes - do they have another gear that we haven't seen in the playoffs or will this be a war from the start?

The Spurs made a real statement in Game 1. They look like the know this is, maybe, their last best chance to win a title with Duncan-Parker-Manu. A Heat v Spurs final would be amazing. Indiana v Memphis might do worse ratings then 'Cop Rock'. That last reference is an age litmus test.

[g-money]

It's hard to call this Pacers v Heat series because I don't think we've seen Miami's full effort. I am not saying that they didn't try hard against Chicago, but that series never got to real gut check time where the Heat's back was to the wall. I think they've got an extra gear, and I think they'll need it if the Pacers bring their A game. Hill, George, Hibbert, West, Stephenson is a LEGIT 5 on both ends of the court. I think Miami wins, but it will be interesting to see how it goes - do they have another gear that we haven't seen in the playoffs or will this be a war from the start?

The Spurs made a real statement in Game 1. They look like the know this is, maybe, their last best chance to win a title with Duncan-Parker-Manu. A Heat v Spurs final would be amazing. Indiana v Memphis might do worse ratings then 'Cop Rock'. That last reference is an age litmus test.

Nice write-up, Billy Dat. I see Miami beating Indy in 6 or 7 games. My thinking is that while the Heat are the better team, A) they will have to deal with the rust factor again in this series to some extent; B) the Pacers played them very well last year; and C) the Pacers present some matchup issues due to their size.

From a Duke fan perspective, this would be a great time for Shane to find his 3 point stroke. With the exception of a couple big shots against the Bulls in game 5, he hasn't been shooting well so far in the playoffs, yet he has proven himself time and again to be able to bring his A game when needed. This could be the series. Dickie V voice: Paging Mister Battier!!!

On the Western side of the ledger, I think we're looking at a real toss-up - with the major caveat that if the Spurs win game 2, it's over! :)

[Billy Dat]

Nice write-up, Billy Dat. I see Miami beating Indy in 6 or 7 games. My thinking is that while the Heat are the better team, A) they will have to deal with the rust factor again in this series to some extent; B) the Pacers played them very well last year; and C) the Pacers present some matchup issues due to their size.

From a Duke fan perspective, this would be a great time for Shane to find his 3 point stroke. With the exception of a couple big shots against the Bulls in game 5, he hasn't been shooting well so far in the playoffs, yet he has proven himself time and again to be able to bring his A game when needed. This could be the series. Dickie V voice: Paging Mister Battier!!!

On the Western side of the ledger, I think we're looking at a real toss-up - with the major caveat that if the Spurs win game 2, it's over! :)

Now that the Knicks are out, I am all in on Shane as I was last year. They need both Shane and Ray Allen to step it up.

I doubt the Spurs can keep up this torrid pace from 3. As you say, the Grizz would be wise to try and steal a road game tomorrow. I am dubious of game 1s ever since the Spurs made OKC look silly in Game 1 of the West Finals last year.

I thought of your DBR name when "New Jack City" was on cable this weekend. "CMB. CMB! We all we got!"

[g-money]

I thought of your DBR name when "New Jack City" was on cable this weekend. "CMB. CMB! We all we got!"

I only wish I could claim that kind of street cred. g-money was the nickname we had going around for Grant Hill back when I was a freshman in '93... although for all I know, its origin may well have been g-money from New Jack City. Great flick. (And great player!)

[moonpie23]

STOP!!!!!! making me pull for danny greene!!!

[elvis14]

STOP!!!!!! making me pull for danny greene!!!

I some how find it possible to root for every Spur except Dancin' Danny. I celebrate every time he gets blocked, dunked on, etc. even if I do like the Spurs. Last year when the Spurs got bounced one of the main problems was that Dancin' Danny couldn't throw it in the ocean when it mattered most. Hated to see the Spurs lose but loved that reason why.

Looking forward to tonight's Pacers game. Hope they can give the LeBron's a good series. I can root for Shane to hit every 3 and pick up every charge while rooting for Dwhine Wade and Labron to lose :-)

[Duvall]

Are there any teams left in this league that are interested in playing basketball?

[luburch]

Well this Pacers/Heat series is setting up to be a good one.

[Billy Dat]

Well this Pacers/Heat series is setting up to be a good one.

SICK GAME!!!!!!!!!

First off, for the local angle. Game 1 delivered, and the series will perhaps continue to deliver, a lot of Battier/Hansbrough battles. Psycho T only played 12 minutes, but they went mano-a-mano the entire time and it was intense. The battles for rebounds only were fierce, and it was getting very chippy. It's just a really interesting wrinkle, two of the most revered Duke/UNC rivalry players going hard. Granted, it's a small footnote for this series, but I really implore anyone who doesn't watch the pro game to tune in because Shane is a big part of this Heat team and his NBA career is close to over. It's so fun to watch him play.

The big picture, though. LBJ's triple double and buzzer beater game winner. Paul George's continued emergence as a superstar with a regulation-ending 3 to tie, 3 free throws to take a one point lead before LBJ's game winner. Frank Vogel decides to keep Hibbert on the bench for the final few sequences - a LBJ gets a lay-up - much second guessing going on.

It was a nasty, physical game with lots of bad blood, hard fouls, shoving away from the ball - playoff basketball!!!! The Heat were forced to play Norris Cole extended minutes because Mario Chalmers got hurt, that's a situation to keep an eye one.

[Starter]

Really a terrific game, plenty of drama and twists and turns. A lot of people discovered Paul George last night, but he was a star all season, and he was pretty stellar last year too. It's just a shame his performance was tainted somewhat by overplaying LeBron on the final play of the game. Force him to fade away, you know? I thought Hibbert should have been in the game, but it's probably a moot point if George plays LeBron straight-up to shoot. Good sign for the Heat, too: Wade looked really good to me. And for those who don't get Bosh's value, Vogel said Hibbert wasn't on the court because he didn't think he was quick enough to close out on Bosh for a perimeter jump shot while protecting the rim at the same time. Bosh is a matchup nightmare at the 5.

I think the Heat win the series in 6, which isn't exactly going out on a limb. But though Indiana played them about as tough as you can play a team, they needed two George miracles to extend the game, and this very narrow defeat will be difficult to recover from and win the series.

[luburch]

I thought Vogel's decision to leave Hibbert on the bench was sound. With 2.2 seconds left he wanted to force LeBron to catch the ball going away from the basket. Then by the time he would be squared up he would have time for one dribble and a jump shot over a long Paul George or a kick out to a teammate. But since George overplayed the first pass LeBron could get to the rim easily. It's one of those decisions that doesn't get much thought if it works out, but if it goes wrong you catch a bunch of slack.

[superdave]

I thought Vogel's decision to leave Hibbert on the bench was sound. With 2.2 seconds left he wanted to force LeBron to catch the ball going away from the basket. Then by the time he would be squared up he would have time for one dribble and a jump shot over a long Paul George or a kick out to a teammate. But since George overplayed the first pass LeBron could get to the rim easily. It's one of those decisions that doesn't get much thought if it works out, but if it goes wrong you catch a bunch of slack.

If anything, you want to run a second defender at Lebron rather than play him straight up. As soon as the ball is inbounded, run a guy at him to change his angles.

[CDu]

I thought Vogel's decision to leave Hibbert on the bench was sound. With 2.2 seconds left he wanted to force LeBron to catch the ball going away from the basket. Then by the time he would be squared up he would have time for one dribble and a jump shot over a long Paul George or a kick out to a teammate. But since George overplayed the first pass LeBron could get to the rim easily. It's one of those decisions that doesn't get much thought if it works out, but if it goes wrong you catch a bunch of slack.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Hibbert being on the bench there, so long as you are CERTAIN that you aren't going to give up a shot near the basket. Vogel gambled that James wouldn't have time to get to the rim. He figured it would be more valuable to have a quicker team on the floor to disrupt any move toward the basket. It wasn't a flawed strategy - just a flawed execution on the part of the Pacers. George got caught flat-footed when he should have been staying between James and the rim. It was also a bit of a flawed strategy to be overplaying the shooters (meaning West and Hansbrough were 20+ feet from the basket) and thus allowing an iso opportunity for James inside the arc. And, of course, it was a terrific play by James.

What might I have done differently? I probably would have had Hibbert (or Mahinmi) guard the inbounds passer. If you're going to have a guy defending the inbounder with that little time left, it should be someone who makes it hard to get a good pass in. Having West guard the inbounds guy doesn't really do much to disrupt the pass, because West isn't that tall and isn't that long. So basically, West (one of your biggest guys) was effectively useless on the play. If the big guy is going to be 35 feet from the basket, at least take advantage of his length to disrupt the entry pass.

I'd also have had Young on Allen and Hansbrough on Bosh. And I'd have instructed the guys guarding Bosh (in my case Hansbrough) and Cole (Hill) to concern themselves more with James than with those perimeter shooters. I'd almost play a zone defense there, with Hill and Hansbrough shading toward the paint. If James gets the ball, I want to give him 3 defenders in his neighborhood to try to force him to pass. There wasn't a ton of time, and I'd rather see James, Bosh, or Cole having to make a rushed 15+ footer than allow James an isolation opportunity from inside 20 feet.

[greybeard]

You bet he did. He caught with his right foot his pivot foot, stepped with his right, planted, stepped with his left, planted, lifted his right and released the ball. At least that is the way my son and I see it and we've watched any number of times. We could be mistaken, but I do not see how.

[TexHawk]

You bet he did. He caught with his right foot his pivot foot, stepped with his right, planted, stepped with his left, planted, lifted his right and released the ball. At least that is the way my son and I see it and we've watched any number of times. We could be mistaken, but I do not see how.

He probably picked that move up from Paul George himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMCnTMkE98). ;)

[CDu]

You bet he did. He caught with his right foot his pivot foot, stepped with his right, planted, stepped with his left, planted, lifted his right and released the ball. At least that is the way my son and I see it and we've watched any number of times. We could be mistaken, but I do not see how.

Did he travel? Certainly at the college/high school/grade school level, and certainly according to the NBA rules as they were written over the past several decades. But one must remember that the NBA recently (in 2009) changed the travelliing rules to allow for:
- two steps after catching the ball before having to dribble; and
- two steps after a dribble to come to a stop before having to shoot or pass.

Based on these new rules, he certainly didn't travel after his dribble. And it didn't look like he technically travelled before the dribble either. Though that was certainly much closer.

Regardless, you will NEVER see an NBA official call a travel on such a borderline call (if it even was a travel). Especially not at the end of a playoff game. The Pacers certainly don't have a leg to stand on with regard to griping about a possible travel there (not that they are griping about it of course).

[BobbyFan]

I thought Vogel's decision to leave Hibbert on the bench was sound. With 2.2 seconds left he wanted to force LeBron to catch the ball going away from the basket. Then by the time he would be squared up he would have time for one dribble and a jump shot over a long Paul George or a kick out to a teammate. But since George overplayed the first pass LeBron could get to the rim easily. It's one of those decisions that doesn't get much thought if it works out, but if it goes wrong you catch a bunch of slack.

No question that the critical blunder was George's overplay.

But I don't agree with Vogel's decision. His mistake was that he was playing for a jumpshot. An open layup/dunk is the easiest shot in the game, and you always have to protect the rim in such situations. The only exception would be if the Pacers were up 3.

The advantage that Hansbrough may have over Hibbert in moving/switching in the perimeter doesn't come close to overcoming the extreme disparity between the two as paint protectors. I will say that, given the play that was run, I'm not sure that Hibbert would have been able to help in time to make a difference. But I also don't know that the same play would have been used by Miami, knowing that Hibbert was in.

[rsvman]

Everybody is commenting on the last play strictly in a Packer-esque fashion; i.e., pointing out where mistakes were made.

I prefer to think about it from the opposite perspective; i.e., how were things done right? I've never given much thought to Spoelstra's coaching, but if you watch the last play of the game again and think about the offense instead of the defense, to me it seems that Spoelstra drew up the absolutely perfect play for the situation. There's a reason that Hansblahblah and West were so far away from the paint. They were deliberately DRAWN there by the way the play unfolded. The shooters came off screens in the middle of the floor and sprinted to the outside, giving the illusion that the play was going to be a jumpshot. They went in opposite directions at the exact same time, drawing the defenders away from the paint and thus leaving LeBron an open lane.

Finally, it was an excellent inbounds pass to a guy who was prepared to make the strong move to the hoop and executed the play to perfection.


Let's give credit where credit is due.

[TexHawk]

No question that the critical blunder was George's overplay.

But I don't agree with Vogel's decision. His mistake was that he was playing for a jumpshot. An open layup/dunk is the easiest shot in the game, and you always have to protect the rim in such situations. The only exception would be if the Pacers were up 3.

The advantage that Hansbrough may have over Hibbert in moving/switching in the perimeter doesn't come close to overcoming the extreme disparity between the two as paint protectors. I will say that, given the play that was run, I'm not sure that Hibbert would have been able to help in time to make a difference. But I also don't know that the same play would have been used by Miami, knowing that Hibbert was in.

Sam Young was the closest player to James (outside of George of course). Young started that play guarding Ray Allen. Assuming all would have played out similarly**, Hibbert would have had to have been doing the same to have a chance at defending that shot, no? I don't think any coach in the world would have deliberately had Roy Hibbert chase around the best 3 point shooter in NBA history.

** Though I probably agree, Hibbert's presence changes that whole dynamic.

[Starter]

A couple things make this a mistake, and not just the fact that it was FIRST-guessed by virtually everyone who watched it, at least that I know about. One is the play that immediately preceded it, where LeBron blew everyone up to the basket and there was no Hibbert there. AFter watching that, how do you take him out again? Another is that Sam Young ended up on Bosh with Hansbrough on Allen after a switch, none of which made any sense. It's not like these are essential defenders or anything. Just have Hibbert in there, you know? Perhaps most of all, anyone who saw Hibbert block Carmelo and ostensibly end the Knicks' season knows what kind of impact this guy can have in a very similar late-game situation.

Now even if you figure Hibbert is some lead-footed dude who can't get out and contest a Bosh shot after keeping a foot in the paint -- like Vogel was saying, to cover his own mistake -- how much time do you think all of this takes? LeBron is going to take an inbounds, drive, draw Hibbert into the paint and find Bosh for some completely uncontested shot all in 2.2 seconds? I guess it's physically possible, but a lot would have had to go right to get any sort of decent shot in that amount of time. I'd have to think the plan was for LeBron to take the shot through hell or high water; I just figure they thought he'd have to shoot over George instead of blow by him after a boneheaded overplay.

Listen, the Heat might have still won if Hibbert was in there, and maybe it would have been Bosh who hit the game-winner. But nobody was going to criticize Vogel for having Hibbert in there and making Bosh beat you. Conversely, you would have heard a lot more credit go to LeBron for creating the play and Bosh for converting the shot.

[Starter]

Sam Young was the closest player to James (outside of George of course). Young started that play guarding Ray Allen. Assuming all would have played out similarly**, Hibbert would have had to have been doing the same to have a chance at defending that shot, no? I don't think any coach in the world would have deliberately had Roy Hibbert chase around the best 3 point shooter in NBA history.

** Though I probably agree, Hibbert's presence changes that whole dynamic.

You don't switch there. That was a mistake on Hansbrough's part. He ended up on Allen and was in no position to help out down low. (Though honestly, I wish he had been. Does anyone here think LeBron wouldn't have eviscerated him at the hoop? We'd all have mural-size posters on our walls.)

[CDu]

Everybody is commenting on the last play strictly in a Packer-esque fashion; i.e., pointing out where mistakes were made.

I prefer to think about it from the opposite perspective; i.e., how were things done right? I've never given much thought to Spoelstra's coaching, but if you watch the last play of the game again and think about the offense instead of the defense, to me it seems that Spoelstra drew up the absolutely perfect play for the situation. There's a reason that Hansblahblah and West were so far away from the paint. They were deliberately DRAWN there by the way the play unfolded. The shooters came off screens in the middle of the floor and sprinted to the outside, giving the illusion that the play was going to be a jumpshot. They went in opposite directions at the exact same time, drawing the defenders away from the paint and thus leaving LeBron an open lane.

Finally, it was an excellent inbounds pass to a guy who was prepared to make the strong move to the hoop and executed the play to perfection.


Let's give credit where credit is due.

Oh I agree - it was a well-thought-out plan to spread the floor and create an isolation opportunity for James. And of course (as I did give credit) James deserves tons of credit for his decisive and explosive move to the rim to finish.

I just don't think the defensive strategy was sound, even given the excellent planning/execution by Miami. I mean, you have to know that Miami is going to spread the floor with shooters and create an isolation opportunity for James. I could have called that from a mile away. What you have to decide, as a defense, is what you want to allow Miami to do from that set. Do you feel confident in George's ability to defend James straight up? Or would you rather force James to make a decision (shoot a jumper or pass to a jumpshooter) and hope that the jump shot (either by James or someone else) comes up empty?

I'm always inclined to say make Miami a jumpshooting team. They are at their best when their wings (specifically James and Wade) can attack the rim. Everything else is just (to one degree or another) offensive filler. If I'm going to go down against Miami, I want to force them to do so with something other than their first option.

[CDu]

A couple things make this a mistake, and not just the fact that it was FIRST-guessed by virtually everyone who watched it, at least that I know about. One is the play that immediately preceded it, where LeBron blew everyone up to the basket and there was no Hibbert there. AFter watching that, how do you take him out again? Another is that Sam Young ended up on Bosh with Hansbrough on Allen after a switch, none of which made any sense. It's not like these are essential defenders or anything. Just have Hibbert in there, you know? Perhaps most of all, anyone who saw Hibbert block Carmelo and ostensibly end the Knicks' season knows what kind of impact this guy can have in a very similar late-game situation.

I ultimately don't have any problem with the switch. The first priority is to not allow a guy a free run to the rim on the inbounds play. So switch away if you feel that's the best way to prevent such an opportunity.

Where I DO have a problem is with both Young and Hansbrough sticking so close to guys who were drifting to the perimeter. You live with a rushed Allen 3pt shot from the corner. You live with a rushed Bosh 15-footer. But you don't live with LeBron blowing by his man straight to the rim (again).

As for Hibbert, I think he's a bit of a red herring. I don't know that Indiana needed Hibbert to deter James going to the rim. They just needed more bodies. Like Hansbrough, I don't think Hibbert would have prevented a score around the rim from James. James is just too good in close. You have to deter James before he commits to going to the rim. Double James hard once he gets the ball. Force him to give it up, and make it tough for him to do so.

The problem was that Vogel stuck with a "guard the shooter" strategy. And as such, he basically begged James to win the game one-on-one. And that's exactly the result he got.

[Starter]

As for Hibbert, I think he's a bit of a red herring. I don't know that Indiana needed Hibbert to deter James going to the rim. They just needed more bodies. Like Hansbrough, I don't think Hibbert would have prevented a score around the rim from James. James is just too good in close. You have to deter James before he commits to going to the rim. Double James hard once he gets the ball. Force him to give it up, and make it tough for him to do so.



I agree with most of this, namely that Hibbert's best role on the floor would have been to make LeBron hesitate just enough before attempting to nuke everyone to the rim. But I will submit this (http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Hibbert-Block-CJ-Zero.gif) to say, who knows? I realize LeBron is more explosive and simply better than Carmelo, but I mean, Carmelo's no slouch. You wouldn't put too many guys (other than LeBron) over him in terms of detonating his man and exploding to the rim. And Hibbert destroyed his dunk attempt. Who's to say he doesn't do that to LeBron?

[BobbyFan]

Sam Young was the closest player to James (outside of George of course). Young started that play guarding Ray Allen. Assuming all would have played out similarly**, Hibbert would have had to have been doing the same to have a chance at defending that shot, no? I don't think any coach in the world would have deliberately had Roy Hibbert chase around the best 3 point shooter in NBA history.

** Though I probably agree, Hibbert's presence changes that whole dynamic.

If Vogel had put in Hibbert, he wouldn't have had him switching like Hansbrough did - the underlying defensive strategy would be different. They could have Hibbert manning the paint by himself, taken West off of the in bounds passer, and had the remaining four switching as needed with freedom to overplay, although not to the extent that George did. It would open the possibility of a throw back to Battier, but there would likely be a defender in the vicinity to get a hand up as Battier doesn't have the quickest release.

[g-money]

SICK GAME!!!!!!!!!

First off, for the local angle. Game 1 delivered, and the series will perhaps continue to deliver, a lot of Battier/Hansbrough battles. Psycho T only played 12 minutes, but they went mano-a-mano the entire time and it was intense. The battles for rebounds only were fierce, and it was getting very chippy. It's just a really interesting wrinkle, two of the most revered Duke/UNC rivalry players going hard. Granted, it's a small footnote for this series, but I really implore anyone who doesn't watch the pro game to tune in because Shane is a big part of this Heat team and his NBA career is close to over. It's so fun to watch him.


On this note, apparently some of the Pacers think Battier's playing dirty:

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9306308

Pot, meet kettle.

[CDu]

On this note, apparently some of the Pacers think Battier's playing dirty:

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9306308

Pot, meet kettle.

As much as I love me some Battier, he certainly isn't afraid to cross the libe into dirty play. That is a bit of a dirty secret about the Heat. They are more than willing to play on the dirty side. But if you even cone close to returning the favor? They whine to the high heavens.

Note: the primary culprit in this is Wade, but Haslem, Anderson, and Chalmers don't fall far from the tree. It appears that tendencies may be rubbing off on Battier.

[Atlanta Duke]

On this note, apparently some of the Pacers think Battier's playing dirty:

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9306308

Pot, meet kettle.

Several Pacers were upset with Battier by the end of the game. He got into several minor scuffles, especially with Tyler Hansbrough. :)

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/9306308/roy-hibbert-indiana-pacers-calls-shane-battier-miami-heat-dirty

[Reilly]

I sometimes wonder if there is a benevolent God in heaven who actually cares about us humans and the concept of justice. Then I read this from the linked espn piece, and I have no doubt: "In the second half, Battier appeared to throw an elbow at Hansbrough as the two went for a rebound. Hansbrough was called for a foul on the play."

[luvdahops]

As much as I love me some Battier, he certainly isn't afraid to cross the libe into dirty play. That is a bit of a dirty secret about the Heat. They are more than willing to play on the dirty side. But if you even cone close to returning the favor? They whine to the high heavens.

Note: the primary culprit in this is Wade, but Haslem, Anderson, and Chalmers don't fall far from the tree. It appears that tendencies may be rubbing off on Battier.

Agreed on all points. Having watched the Heat up close against the Bulls several times year, I think Anderson is clearly the chippiest and Wade the biggest whiner. I may be biased as a Bulls fan, but I really find the demeanor of the entire Heat team to be supremely annoying. And I say this as someone whose season tix are a few rows behind the visitor's bench. It makes it very hard to respect them, as good as they are and even with Shane in the fold.

[moonpie23]

percent chance of battier getting tossed tonight?

percent chance of hansblah getting tossed tonight?

percent chance of a fight?


percent chance of beaker looking like he's been "done wrong" sometime during the game?

percent chance that battier is in beaker's head about the "dirty play"





bring on game 2 !!! this is going to be awesome....

[g-money]

Agreed on all points. Having watched the Heat up close against the Bulls several times year, I think Anderson is clearly the chippiest and Wade the biggest whiner. I may be biased as a Bulls fan, but I really find the demeanor of the entire Heat team to be supremely annoying. And I say this as someone whose season tix are a few rows behind the visitor's bench. It makes it very hard to respect them, as good as they are and even with Shane in the fold.


As much as I love me some Battier, he certainly isn't afraid to cross the libe into dirty play. That is a bit of a dirty secret about the Heat. They are more than willing to play on the dirty side. But if you even cone close to returning the favor? They whine to the high heavens.

Note: the primary culprit in this is Wade, but Haslem, Anderson, and Chalmers don't fall far from the tree. It appears that tendencies may be rubbing off on Battier.


OK, let me ask you Bulls fans a question: Do you honestly believe the Heat would be playing that way if their opponent was OKC or the Clippers instead of the Bulls/Pacers? Come on now.

I think it's fair to characterize Miami as a team that is willing to match physicality. Inherently dirty? I say no.

[luvdahops]

OK, let me ask you Bulls fans a question: Do you honestly believe the Heat would be playing that way if their opponent was OKC or the Clippers instead of the Bulls/Pacers? Come on now.

I think it's fair to characterize Miami as a team that is willing to match physicality. Inherently dirty? I say no.

Perhaps not to the same degree, at least in terms of physicality/chippiness, although Anderson's rep in that regard was well established long before he joined the Heat. Some might say Shane's was too, though I think that is more a reflection of his ability to generally frustrate opponents than being dirty (even sneaky dirty) per se.

But the big issue I have is the combination of physicality/chippiness with an absurd amount of whining when they don't get calls. Not just the guys on the floor, especially Wade, but the guys on the bench too. Maybe even more so. They just don't comport themselves like champions. And that is the case no matter whom they are playing.

[CDu]

OK, let me ask you Bulls fans a question: Do you honestly believe the Heat would be playing that way if their opponent was OKC or the Clippers instead of the Bulls/Pacers? Come on now.

I think it's fair to characterize Miami as a team that is willing to match physicality. Inherently dirty? I say no.

You apparently haven't watched Wade and Chalmers closely enough. Or Anderson and Haslem at all.

Miami has managed to obtain a choir boy reputation, which is ironic because guys like Wade and Chalmers both have long history of taking cheap shots.

Would Miami prefer to play a game with no contact whatsoever? Sure. That plays to their advantage. But if you show them the slightest physical resistance, they go overboard in their response and in their whining.

[brevity]

On this note, apparently some of the Pacers think Battier's playing dirty:

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=9306308

Pot, meet kettle.

Has there ever been a great defender that wasn't accused of playing dirty? I don't advocate dirty play from anyone, but when someone has repeated success on tough defensive assignments, they should take any accusations leveled at them as a badge of pride.

[Duvall]

The NBA - home to the greatest athletes in the world, and also Tyler Hansbrough.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Shaping up to be a great series. I'm definitely disappointed in how that one ended. Miami had a great chance to put that one away, but it just didn't happen. Up 4 with five and a half minutes left, Bosh missed a wide open 3 that was probably a bad shot, and then I think on the next possession Allen missed a 3 that looked like it was down. Next thing you know Indiana's up 1, it's a dogfight, and the Pacers just played better down the stretch. Lance Stephenson kept the Heat in it, but a couple of terrible decisions by Wade, and two bad turnovers by Lebron in the final minute basically sealed the Heat's fate.

There's no question the Pacers create matchup problems for the Heat, but the Heat create matchup problems for everyone. As a Heat fan, I am trying to comfort myself with the idea that the Pacers have played close to their best game twice now, and the Heat have played well, but definitely not their best game. The Heat are well below their season percentages at both the free throw line and especially from three point land in this series, and I don't think any of that has to do with the Pacers D. Battier and Allen, in particular, are both ice cold. Most of Shane's shots have been WAY off...I'm not sure what's going on with him. The Heat may need to think about giving some of the Battier/Allen minutes to Mike Miller. On the other hand, I worry about what happens to Miami if Lebron has an off night.

ETA: Allen, Battier, and Cole are a combined 5 for 30. You say, OK, but what about Birdman's ridiculous 9-9. OK, fine...together they're 14 for 39. That's rounds up to 36%. Still pretty bad.

[luburch]

This series has potential to be one of the all time greats.

[dukelifer]

Shaping up to be a great series. I'm definitely disappointed in how that one ended. Miami had a great chance to put that one away, but it just didn't happen. Up 4 with five and a half minutes left, Bosh missed a wide open 3 that was probably a bad shot, and then I think on the next possession Allen missed a 3 that looked like it was down. Next thing you know Indiana's up 1, it's a dogfight, and the Pacers just played better down the stretch. Lance Stephenson kept the Heat in it, but a couple of terrible decisions by Wade, and two bad turnovers by Lebron in the final minute basically sealed the Heat's fate.

There's no question the Pacers create matchup problems for the Heat, but the Heat create matchup problems for everyone. As a Heat fan, I am trying to comfort myself with the idea that the Pacers have played close to their best game twice now, and the Heat have played well, but definitely not their best game. The Heat are well below their season percentages at both the free throw line and especially from three point land in this series, and I don't think any of that has to do with the Pacers D. Battier and Allen, in particular, are both ice cold. Most of Shane's shots have been WAY off...I'm not sure what's going on with him. The Heat may need to think about giving some of the Battier/Allen minutes to Mike Miller. On the other hand, I worry about what happens to Miami if Lebron has an off night.

ETA: Allen, Battier, and Cole are a combined 5 for 30. You say, OK, but what about Birdman's ridiculous 9-9. OK, fine...together they're 14 for 39. That's rounds up to 36%. Still pretty bad.

If the Heat do not starting hitting some threes- they are not going to win this. Battier or Allen need to step it up. The Heat won last year because of their ability to hit from long range. Right now, I would say the Pacers are better than the Heat but don't quite believe it. The might after the last two games. George is becoming a star. This kid was an unknown high school recruit - played at Fresno State - and now is going toe to toe one the best players in NBA history and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot. Only wish Miles was seeing a few minutes. Hard to pull for a team with Hansbrough. If Hansbrough and Green both make it to the finals- not sure I will be watching- along with the rest of the country ;)

[Mabdul Doobakus]

If the Heat do not starting hitting some threes- they are not going to win this. Battier or Allen need to step it up. The Heat won last year because of their ability to hit from long range. Right now, I would say the Pacers are better than the Heat but don't quite believe it. The might after the last two games. George is becoming a star. This kid was an unknown high school recruit - played at Fresno State - and now is going toe to toe one the best players in NBA history and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot. Only wish Miles was seeing a few minutes. Hard to pull for a team with Hansbrough. If Hansbrough and Green both make it to the finals- not sure I will be watching- along with the rest of the country ;)

I'm just counting on the law of averages...I expect some of those threes to start dropping, and I expect Paul George to come back to earth a little. He's been pretty great for 6 quarters, but he's been a 42% shooter all season...not terrible, but not terribly efficient either. You could probably classify 4 of his 6 games against the Knicks as stinkers, but he's riding a hot hand and a lot of confidence right now.

[moonpie23]

spurs = gravity

[moonpie23]

oh....they ARE still the Heat.....

[Des Esseintes]

oh....they ARE still the Heat.....

Yeah, that was a 70-point first half off only 3 made threes. 1.68 ppp. Kuh-razytimes. Hardly a novel thing to say, but it's pretty amazing how much Birdman has added to this team. They were odds-on title favorites before the season, and I don't think there is any question he has made them noticeably stronger.

[CDu]

Yeah, that was a 70-point first half off only 3 made threes. 1.68 ppp. Kuh-razytimes. Hardly a novel thing to say, but it's pretty amazing how much Birdman has added to this team. They were odds-on title favorites before the season, and I don't think there is any question he has made them noticeably stronger.

That was arguably only the second time in these playoffs that the Heat have played really well. They sleepwalked through the Milwaukee series, looked sluggish in all but Game 2 of the Bulls series, and looked like the worse of the two teams in the first two games of the Pacers series. But Game 3 was an entirely different Heat team than we have seen in the playoffs this year. Wade and James posted up (where they have a HUGE advantage over their matchups), Haslem hit jumpshots, as did Bosh. A very impressive performance.

[Des Esseintes]

That was arguably only the second time in these playoffs that the Heat have played really well. They sleepwalked through the Milwaukee series, looked sluggish in all but Game 2 of the Bulls series, and looked like the worse of the two teams in the first two games of the Pacers series. But Game 3 was an entirely different Heat team than we have seen in the playoffs this year. Wade and James posted up (where they have a HUGE advantage over their matchups), Haslem hit jumpshots, as did Bosh. A very impressive performance.

And not out of character, that semi-lollygagging. During the regular season, this was about the coastingest 66-win team you're ever going to see, massive win streak notwithstanding. Whether it's a teamwide personality thing or an effort to conserve Wade--I'd probably put it 60% the former, 40% the latter--they hit top gear but rarely. Only really in the last seven minutes of close games and the entirety of contests they have decided are Important (i.e., revenge games, games against the Thunder, and nothing else). It's a decadence I find simultaneously disappointing, smart, and completely compelling. Others' mileages may vary, natch.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

It was nice to see the Heat hit the extra gear, but I don't think they can just summon that at will. Sometimes Haslem is going to go 1-9. In fact, I think he was like 1-7 or 1-8 over the first two games. Sometimes the shots drop, and when they do, the Heat are probably unbeatable.

The bigger difference, one that can probably be sustained over the rest of this series, was a coaching decision and/or a concerted effort by Lebron to work the post more. George was helpless down there. He wasn't getting much help, but when the help does come, Lebron's probably going to find a wide open shooter, so it's very much pick your poison.

Indiana missed a bunch of shots that they'd been making the first two games, but I was arguing earlier that I expected some regression to the mean, and I think that's what we saw. I'm guessing more of those shots go in during Game 4, the Pacers force a few more turnovers, Haslem doesn't shoot 8-9, Birdman maybe misses a shot, and we have another very tight game.

[moonpie23]

spurs = gravity

dang....you are right on!!

[NSDukeFan]

Since Billy Dat hasn't shared Zach Lowe's latest excellent column after the Spurs completed the sweep of a very good Memphis squad, I thought I would. I have always been a Duncan fan and have been amazed at the season he has had this year at 37. http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/63403/we-went-there-the-spurs-grind-out-a-sweep-at-the-grindhouse

One interesting point in the Grantland article was how the Spurs used the screen the big man screener technique with Danny Green often screening Duncan, Splitter, or Boris Diaw's man so that Gasol, or whichever guard was guarding the second screener, would have a more difficult time containing Parker. That was the strategy Louisville used so effectively against Duke to make it more challenging to contain Smith and Siva. I don't know if this is a new strategy or something that teams have been using for years, but find it interesting how effective it has been.

[Des Esseintes]

Since Billy Dat hasn't shared Zach Lowe's latest excellent column after the Spurs completed the sweep of a very good Memphis squad, I thought I would. I have always been a Duncan fan and have been amazed at the season he has had this year at 37. http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/63403/we-went-there-the-spurs-grind-out-a-sweep-at-the-grindhouse

One interesting point in the Grantland article was how the Spurs used the screen the big man screener technique with Danny Green often screening Duncan, Splitter, or Boris Diaw's man so that Gasol, or whichever guard was guarding the second screener, would have a more difficult time containing Parker. That was the strategy Louisville used so effectively against Duke to make it more challenging to contain Smith and Siva. I don't know if this is a new strategy or something that teams have been using for years, but find it interesting how effective it has been.

I think it has had currency in the NBA for a little while. At the college basketball level, perhaps less so.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Did anyone else feel like this was one of the worst officiating jobs they've ever seen in the NBA? I feel like they got more calls wrong than they got right.

Miami lost this game for any number of reasons. Indiana played with far more poise and toughness down the stretch; Wade and Bosh were awful; they got outrebounded by 20; they lost their edge every time they got a lead, settling for bad jumpers; they shot 39%; Lebron fouled out. I mean, there's no way this game should have been close at all.

But, good God, the officiating was awful. It felt like the refs were just flipping a coin out there. I suppose the players aren't doing the refs any favors; I've never seen more flopping my life, from both sides. The NBA needs to get more serious about punishing flopping, and it needs to get rid of these 3 refs.

Anyway, Miami definitely earned this loss, and have now backed into a best of 3. They still should win, but they won't win any more games if they play like they did tonight.

[luburch]

I think the shot clock violation (on the Pacers) was one of the worst calls I have ever seen.

[jipops]

I think the shot clock violation (on the Pacers) was one of the worst calls I have ever seen.

The last horrible call is always the worst we've ever seen.

The Pacers' offensive boards sealed this one. Miami seems to really have problems defending this team. And putting LeBron on West seems to only work in spurts. The bright side for the Heat, Bosh and Wade were pretty much dreadful and they were still in this thing.

This series is only getting better.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

The Heat were outrebounded 16-4 in the 4th quarter, which should tell you everything you need to know. On at least two occasions, I noted Bosh just standing there after an Indiana player put up a shot, while his man went right past him, straight to the basket, to grab a rebound. 7 points and 3 rebounds is not gonna cut it.

There were many bad calls after the shot clock call, but that one WAS pretty bad. Very hard to explain how 3 refs and a timekeeper missed that one.

[Billy Dat]

What a great series - tied 2-2, each team getting a road win, each staff making great adjustments game to game.

Obviously, the Indiana big men, especially Roy Hibbert, are playing great. Hibbert has really emerged as the leader of the team. He seems incredibly focused and hungry. Aside from getting great position, catching and finishing, he is getting tons of tip ins, second chance buckets, and offensive rebounds. He is drawing so much attention that it is making things easier for everyone else. The entire Pacers starting group is playing really well.

As for Miami, it's tough to give anyone but Lebron a pass at this point. Chalmers played well last night. Still, despite their lackluster play, they game was there to be won in the closing minutes.

The refs have been too much of a presence the whole series, but that's the kind of grind the Pacers want, even if they complain. Obviously, the don't want Hibbert in foul trouble. Personally, I think the Heat need to take it right at Hibbert more to try and draw some more fouls. Obviously, there is a huge amount of press coverage focused on flopping. I actually have been amazed at Shane's ability to sell some of the fouls he has drawn. Since his offensive play has been so poor, he's literally doing anything he can to earn minutes....It's too bad that Wade walked on that late play as Shane was nailing a 3 - I thought that might finally get him going. He's the reason I root for the Heat, and him not playing makes it harder. Aside from that, it's fun to see Miles jumping off the bench for hi 5s during timeouts.

[TexHawk]

The last horrible call is always the worst we've ever seen.

The Pacers' offensive boards sealed this one. Miami seems to really have problems defending this team. And putting LeBron on West seems to only work in spurts. The bright side for the Heat, Bosh and Wade were pretty much dreadful and they were still in this thing.

This series is only getting better.

I don't know when Lebron moved over onto West, but in the 4th quarter, Lebron held him to 1 point, and 0-4 from the field. I had the opposite reaction, Lebron defending West was the only thing keeping Miami in the game.

Kerr made a point about Lebron being on West opened up rebounding for other Pacers, but my recollection was more of Bosh being abused by Hibbert. That was happening regardless of who was guarding West.

[Billy Dat]

Kerr made a point about Lebron being on West opened up rebounding for other Pacers, but my recollection was more of Bosh being abused by Hibbert. That was happening regardless of who was guarding West.

Bosh needs to get some boxing out lessons from Shane, although Shane made a huge an uncharacteristic blunder late in yesterday's game when he failed to box out Ian Mahinmi on a strange near shot clock violation. Mahinmi waltzed past him for an easy put back and you could see the look of shock on Shane's face, like, "How could I let that happen?"

[Billy Dat]

Man, this animated GIF shows just how ridiculous both teams are getting with this stuff. LBJ and West both look like they were shot...I don't think there was a call on this play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2690147/lefloppin2.gif

[elvis14]

Interesting game. I have no idea what to say about the officiating. It was just odd. The late comeback by the Heat was fueled by the refs and I was about to bit*ch about that but then Lebron fouled out (usually you can't buy a call against that guy). I don't like how much the officiating seemed to affect that game. A few other thoughts:



I just can't get behind the Heat. I love Shane and when you hear interviews with Bosh off the court, he's just great. But, despite their great abilities I just can't get behind Wade and James.
When the Heat cruised in game 3 all the ESPN guys and other media types handed the Heat the series right there. The Pacers were being talked about in past tense after that game. It was so sweet to see this team that was written off after 1 bad game jump out to a 11-0 lead.

Side note, since James was posting up, Indiana would have no chance going forward! None! Whatever.
I know that Bosh and Haslem had good games in game 3 but if I'm Indiana and the Heat offense boils down to Bosh taking 3's and Haslem taking 15 foot jumpers instead of James and Wade attacking the paint, I'm happy. Bosh shot 28% from 3 for the season and although he's made some in the playoffs I'd still rather have him jacking 3's than James and Wade in attack mode in the paint. After game 3 everyone acted like having Bosh take open 3's was the definition of good offense because he made a few.


Watching the Pacers last night, I thought they could have run away with this game if they would just move the ball a little more on offense for open shots. They always seemed to be 1 pass away from an easy shot and settling for a contested shot. Some of that was very good defense by the Heat, however.
West and James were being really physical with each other last night. I wonder if this will have any effect on James. Someone pointed out that West didn't score with James on him but will the combination of big minutes and very physical play down low with West wear James down at all? One can hope.
I wish Miles could get a few minutes. At the same time as much as I want Indiana to win, I get a certain amount of satisfaction from HansCheater being completely overmatched and ineffective.
The buzzer beating fade away 3 (with what could have been a foul on DeWhine Wade) by Stephenson was pretty amazing. But I will say that Stephenson looks like he's apt to snap and go nuts at any time!
I'm looking forward to game 5. I haven't seen SportsCenter, have they given it to the Heat yet?

[CDu]

Man, this animated GIF shows just how ridiculous both teams are getting with this stuff. LBJ and West both look like they were shot...I don't think there was a call on this play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2690147/lefloppin2.gif

James and Wade are both big-time floppers. Not that they don't get fouled a lot (they do), but they certainly embellish even the slightest contact at times. Which is funny, because both are more than willing to dole out contact when it suits them.

The James flop there calls to mind (for me) his flail/flop when Nazr grabbed him in transition during Game 2 of the Bulls series. What was a simple grab of James turned into an incident because James flailed and flung Nazr to the ground (to which Nazr overreacted and shoved James to the ground). I'm also reminded of the time that James got a common shooting foul across the chest by Gibson during the game that ended the streak. James spent the next few moments "checking his left shoulder" in an attempt to coerce a flagrant foul (it didn't work). Then he proceeded to use that same shoulder on the very next play to try to plow through a Boozer screen (note to LeBron: if you're going to make a statement by running through a screener, you probably shouldn't pick a guy as big and strong as Boozer).

That was a pretty ridiculous flop by West as well. I doubt either will get a warning from the league though, despite the league's supposed desire to eliminate flopping.

[NSDukeFan]

Man, this animated GIF shows just how ridiculous both teams are getting with this stuff. LBJ and West both look like they were shot...I don't think there was a call on this play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2690147/lefloppin2.gif

That's hilarious. I hope they are ok.

[Billy Dat]

That's hilarious. I hope they are ok.

I don't know, I think I should call the Indianapolis hospitals.

NS, thanks for providing the Dr. Zach link yesterday, here's today's edition:

"We Went There: Not Even the Joey Crawford Revue Can Steal the Pacers' Shine"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/63575/we-went-there-not-even-the-joey-crawford-revue-can-steal-the-pacers-shine

The points I made earlier about Battier's reduced playing time being blamed on his poor offense are offset by Lowe saying it has more to do with the Heat trying to match Indiana's size, which makes sense. He does a nice job illustrating some Pacer techniques for setting up Hibbert in the post...running decoy pick and rolls on the strong side to lure Hibbert's weak side defender deeper into the pain before a quick swing of the ball and simultaneous seal by Hibbert gives him the rock in perfect position to do damage. Frank Vogel is good.

[TexHawk]

The points I made earlier about Battier's reduced playing time being blamed on his poor offense are offset by Lowe saying it has more to do with the Heat trying to match Indiana's size, which makes sense. He does a nice job illustrating some Pacer techniques for setting up Hibbert in the post...running decoy pick and rolls on the strong side to lure Hibbert's weak side defender deeper into the pain before a quick swing of the ball and simultaneous seal by Hibbert gives him the rock in perfect position to do damage. Frank Vogel is good.

Agreed. Spoelstra is no slouch either. Before this series, this Heat team had won 45 out of 48 with a super-duper star and a good-but-flawed supporting cast.

This really is an incredible matchup all around.

[Billy Dat]

-I just can't get behind the Heat. I love Shane and when you hear interviews with Bosh off the court, he's just great. But, despite their great abilities I just can't get behind Wade and James.
-When the Heat cruised in game 3 all the ESPN guys and other media types handed the Heat the series right there. The Pacers were being talked about in past tense after that game. It was so sweet to see this team that was written off after 1 bad game jump out to a 11-0 lead.
-West and James were being really physical with each other last night. I wonder if this will have any effect on James. Someone pointed out that West didn't score with James on him but will the combination of big minutes and very physical play down low with West wear James down at all? One can hope.
-I wish Miles could get a few minutes. At the same time as much as I want Indiana to win, I get a certain amount of satisfaction from HansCheater being completely overmatched and ineffective.
-The buzzer beating fade away 3 (with what could have been a foul on DeWhine Wade) by Stephenson was pretty amazing. But I will say that Stephenson looks like he's apt to snap and go nuts at any time!


Elvis, even though I am rooting for the Heat I appreciate your anti-Heat vitriol. Your comments about the Worldwide Leader are interesting because I have seen a huge uptick in media personalities battling back against bias accusations. I think Twitter is the catalyst because the 1-to-1 connection with individual fans allows bias claims to be directly targeted. I think the Heat's excellent regular season is mostly to blame for the perceived Heat Homerism, plus the fact that for ESPN, the Heat will always be a bigger story than the Pacers.

As for James and West and wearing down, I don't know. They are pretty much the same size, and I'd venture that Lebron is in better shape. As for Psycho T, he does make the guy defending him work to keep him off the glass. He's not very good, but, as usual, he goes 100 MPH all the time.

I am glad you brought up Stephenson. He is making a huge difference in the series. As Kerr said last night, watching him do his one man fast break routine is really exciting. And, you're right, he seems like he's ready to fight at all times. Did you see him blowing into the side of Lebron's face? That kid is pretty crazy.

[g-money]

I actually have been amazed at Shane's ability to sell some of the fouls he has drawn. Since his offensive play has been so poor, he's literally doing anything he can to earn minutes....It's too bad that Wade walked on that late play as Shane was nailing a 3 - I thought that might finally get him going. He's the reason I root for the Heat, and him not playing makes it harder. Aside from that, it's fun to see Miles jumping off the bench for hi 5s during timeouts.

Yeah Billy Dat, it sure has been tough to watch Shane's struggles. Seeing him riding pine at the end of the game just doesn't seem right. But if he's not hitting threes and therefore not drawing an Indiana big out of the lane, it's tough to justify keeping him on the floor. I'd say both he and Ray Allen have not lived up to their end of the bargain in the playoffs.

I'm sure no one is more frustrated than Shane. Maybe a pep talk from Coach K is in order!