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View Full Version : Will Quinn Cook be the best PG in college basketball next year?



CDu
04-09-2013, 02:22 PM
Cook made a terrific jump from his freshman to sophomore seasons, growing from a guy who struggled to crack the rotation into an All-ACC PG. In terms of ACC guys, he might just be the best returning PG (Brown, Harris, and Green are gone; Larkin loses all of his weapons from this year's team which will make life difficult for him). Here are the PG that I would have put ahead of Cook going into next season:

Trey Burke (Michigan): may leave?
Shane Larkin (Miami): may leave?
Lorenzo Brown (NC State): early entry
Russ Smith (Louisville): early entry
Michael Carter-Williams (Syracuse): may leave?
Ray McCallum (Detroit): may leave?
Phil Pressey (Missouri): may leave?

Guys who I'd put in the same conversation as Cook:
Aaron Craft (OSU)
Shabazz Napier (UConn): may leave?
Myck Kabongo (UT): may leave?

None of the freshmen PG options appear to be as good as a junior Cook should be, though you could possibly throw Andrew Harrison, Kasey Hill, Cat Barber, and Terry Rozier into the discussion.

But it's very conceivable that Quinn Cook could be the best returning PG in college basketball next year. Hopefully, he regains the confidence that he had early last year, because if he does it could be a very special season for him and for Duke.

Kedsy
04-09-2013, 02:28 PM
But it's very conceivable that Quinn Cook could be the best returning PG in college basketball next year. Hopefully, he regains the confidence that he had early last year, because if he does it could be a very special season for him and for Duke.

It's surprising to think this might be true, but who knows? Interestingly enough, the CBS pre-season top 25 you posted in another thread had just four sentences about Duke, and one of the four began with, "Cook isn’t a great point guard...." Not that CBS's opinion is necessarily correct, but if Quinn's really the best returning PG in the country, it does say something.

Duvall
04-09-2013, 02:28 PM
Cook made a terrific jump from his freshman to sophomore seasons, growing from a guy who struggled to crack the rotation into an All-ACC PG. In terms of ACC guys, he might just be the best returning PG (Brown, Harris, and Green are gone; Larkin loses all of his weapons from this year's team which will make life difficult for him). Here are the PG that I would have put ahead of Cook going into next season:

Trey Burke (Michigan): may leave?
Shane Larkin (Miami): may leave?
Lorenzo Brown (NC State): early entry
Russ Smith (Louisville): early entry
Michael Carter-Williams (Syracuse): may leave?
Ray McCallum (Detroit): may leave?
Phil Pressey (Missouri): may leave?

Guys who I'd put in the same conversation as Cook:
Aaron Craft (OSU)
Shabazz Napier (UConn): may leave?
Myck Kabongo (UT): may leave?

None of the freshmen PG options appear to be as good as a junior Cook should be, though you could possibly throw Andrew Harrison, Kasey Hill, Cat Barber, and Terry Rozier into the discussion.

But it's very conceivable that Quinn Cook could be the best returning PG in college basketball next year. Hopefully, he regains the confidence that he had early last year, because if he does it could be a very special season for him and for Duke.

Marcus Smart? He may leave, though.

bbosbbos
04-09-2013, 02:40 PM
There is no doubt QC would be the key. We will be a great team if QC improves a lot. But I am not that sure he will make such a jump.

rtnorthrup
04-09-2013, 02:48 PM
I love Quinn Cook, and certainly agree that he made a big leap from his Fresh to his Soph year. A lot of that is the fact that he was healthy and a lot of that was Austin Rivers leaving.

With that said, Cook has a long way to go. I don't like picking on players, but I think on a Duke fan website we can talk about a players weakness. For me, he doesn't have point guard instincts. I see him more as a Nolan Smith combo guard. Both on Offense and Defense, Cook has a lot to learn about running a team.

I watched him against Louisville and thought his body language was terrible. Most of the night, he looked like he didn't want the ball in his hands. When Louisville pressed, I thought Quinn was hesitant. He didn't work his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. off to get open on inbounds play and he didn't work hard enough to help out Kelly and Mason bring the ball up court. I think his confidence was shaken from the Mich State game.

Quinn really needs to improve his footwork defensively. He plays defense with his hands way too much. He needs to get back to penetrating and turning the corner on people.

Next year is going to be really interesting with Sheed and Hood on the wings, two guards who can get their own shot off the dribble. Maybe that will take some pressure off of Quinn to be the primary distributor. I still think Quinn needs to improve on reading a game, learning how to control the tempo of a game (how to speed it up when we want to play fast and how to slow it down when we want to slow down).

I expect another great improvement from him and I think a lot of these issues will be addressed in the summer.

moonpie23
04-09-2013, 02:49 PM
when does the KYRIE IRVING SKILLS CAMP commence?

wilko
04-09-2013, 02:53 PM
Cook is our guy and I'm not going to bang on him!

His development from Fr to So was what allowed us to have the year we had. And it was a good year! He doenst come thru and its a less good year. So I'm hopeful that he continues to develop and add new wrinkles to his game.

At some point I suspect he either lost confidence or sustained an undisclosed injury (or both!) as he was not the same guy to close the season as he started the season IMHO..

Not sure why that is exactly... But I look for him to be even better next year.

sporthenry
04-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Cook is the key to next year. He has to keep his head in the game and learn to use the pick and roll correctly. If he can get into the paint and effectively use the pick and roll, it should open up the offense even more than it already will be. I'm not sure he'll be the best PG in the country but if Larkin leaves, all Duke needs is for him to be the best PG in the conference. Although if you consider Hanlan a PG, he might jump ahead of Cook.

I'd add Carson from ASU (although he just filed NBA paperwork), Appling from MSU, Artis from Oregon, and then you have guys like Chaz Williams from UMass or McConnell at Zona and I'm sure there are some others at smaller programs but on the whole, most major programs will be going into next year with some huge question marks at PG. But from a national perspective, I'd be happy with him being a top 10 guy and I don't think anyone would have him as the top overall PG in the country.

CDu
04-09-2013, 03:04 PM
Marcus Smart? He may leave, though.

I actually don't view Smart as a PG (at least not a very good one). He is a terrific athlete and can be a force of a player, but his assist-to-turnover ratio (4.2 assists to 3.4 turnovers) is very poor and his shot selection is atrocious. I think OSU would be better off finding a real PG and moving Smart to SG, where he can focus on scoring and rebounding rather than trying to create for himself and others.

superdave
04-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Quinn went from 11 to 33 minutes per game. From 25.0% on 3s to 39.3%. From 1.9 assists to 5.3.

His assist to turnover ratio was 2.4 (190 to 79). In contrast, Trey Burke was at 3.3 (222 to 67) and Lorenzo Brown was at 2.07 (230 to 111).

If you assume Quinn gets a little more careful with the ball and a little more confident in pushing the pace and making plays, then I think he breaks the 3.0 assist to turnover ratio (with something like 210 assists and 70 turnovers).

The biggest area where Quinn can improve and take Duke to another level is with his defense. This past season he had 51 steals on the season, or 1.4 per game. Payton Siva has 90 (2.3 per game), Carter-Williams had 111 (2.8) and Shane Larkin had 71 (2.0). If Quinn can get to two steals per game and provide steady on-ball pressure without letting his guy get into the paint, that would be tremendous for next year's team.

We'll see what happens. I think 6 assists per game, 3.0 assist to TO ratio and 2.0 steals per game, coupled with a similar 40% from 3-land rate that he had this season, and Quinn will be 1st team All-ACC and could be in some All-American conversations.

CDu
04-09-2013, 03:25 PM
Quinn went from 11 to 33 minutes per game. From 25.0% on 3s to 39.3%. From 1.9 assists to 5.3.

His assist to turnover ratio was 2.4 (190 to 79). In contrast, Trey Burke was at 3.3 (222 to 67) and Lorenzo Brown was at 2.07 (230 to 111).

If you assume Quinn gets a little more careful with the ball and a little more confident in pushing the pace and making plays, then I think he breaks the 3.0 assist to turnover ratio (with something like 210 assists and 70 turnovers).

The biggest area where Quinn can improve and take Duke to another level is with his defense. This past season he had 51 steals on the season, or 1.4 per game. Payton Siva has 90 (2.3 per game), Carter-Williams had 111 (2.8) and Shane Larkin had 71 (2.0). If Quinn can get to two steals per game and provide steady on-ball pressure without letting his guy get into the paint, that would be tremendous for next year's team.

We'll see what happens. I think 6 assists per game, 3.0 assist to TO ratio and 2.0 steals per game, coupled with a similar 40% from 3-land rate that he had this season, and Quinn will be 1st team All-ACC and could be in some All-American conversations.

I tend to agree with all of that, with one possible exception. It would be almost unprecedented for a Duke PG to average a 3.0 assist/turnover ratio. I think Wojo still has the mark at 3.03 (Scheyer came just short of that at 2.98). I'd expect something between 2.5 and 2.7, but 3.0 would be really outstanding. On a side note, that 3.3 for Burke is just ridiculously good, especially when you consider how good a scorer he is as well.

But if Cook can get into the 2.7+ assist/turnover ratio range, can up his scoring just a bit, and can improve defensively, I agree he'll absolutely be first-team All-ACC and will get All-American consideration.

Ichabod Drain
04-09-2013, 03:32 PM
I tend to agree with all of that, with one possible exception. It would be almost unprecedented for a Duke PG to average a 3.0 assist/turnover ratio. I think Wojo still has the mark at 3.03 (Scheyer came just short of that at 2.98). I'd expect something between 2.5 and 2.7, but 3.0 would be really outstanding. On a side note, that 3.3 for Burke is just ridiculously good, especially when you consider how good a scorer he is as well.

But if Cook can get into the 2.7+ assist/turnover ratio range, can up his scoring just a bit, and can improve defensively, I agree he'll absolutely be first-team All-ACC and will get All-American consideration.

Technically Quinn averaged a 3.8 A/TO ratio his freshman year. :p

CDu
04-09-2013, 03:41 PM
Technically Quinn averaged a 3.8 A/TO ratio his freshman year. :p

touche. I should have said "unprecedented among players averaging at least 15 mpg and/or 2 apg."

Billy Dat
04-09-2013, 03:46 PM
Quinn made great strides this year. I'd like him to watch last night's title game as many times as he can stand to add the following to his game:

Siva and Burke's overall competitiveness and demeanor:
Both PGs were incredible last night in their will to win and leadership. It was the epitome of effort, putting it all on the line, and accountability, and you saw nary a hung head...it was all "next play"

Siva's defense:
The kid was relentless, nearly stealing every ball being dribbled within a 10 foot radius of his body and being a one-man fast break thwarter.

Burke's ball handling:
Burke has mastered the Steve Nash/Chris Paul stutter dribble where the ball handler blows by the defender, shifts his body between the ball and the defender isolating the defender on his back, and power dribbles in the lane with the defender desperately trying to get around them, looking to explode to the goal and finish, pull up for a floater, draw the defense and pass, or even dribble back out, all with one's head up. It is an essential modern day point guard skill.

Attacking the rim:
Burke and Siva both go right to the rim using the changes of speed and the aforementioned stutter dribble. Quinn needs to ditch those goofy floaters and convert more of his 5 feet and in chances.

Transition:
It's too bad we are losing Mason's end to end speed, because with the wings we have next year, we could have been a running team. We should be able to get out in transition more next year and I hope Quinn can push it.

He is primed for a great rest of his Duke career. I look forward to watching him.

superdave
04-09-2013, 03:49 PM
I tend to agree with all of that, with one possible exception. It would be almost unprecedented for a Duke PG to average a 3.0 assist/turnover ratio. I think Wojo still has the mark at 3.03 (Scheyer came just short of that at 2.98). I'd expect something between 2.5 and 2.7, but 3.0 would be really outstanding. On a side note, that 3.3 for Burke is just ridiculously good, especially when you consider how good a scorer he is as well.

But if Cook can get into the 2.7+ assist/turnover ratio range, can up his scoring just a bit, and can improve defensively, I agree he'll absolutely be first-team All-ACC and will get All-American consideration.

Quinn was at 190 assists and 79 tunrovers this past season in 33 minutes. I guess a lot depends on how you think his minutes change. It seems likely his minutes stay relatively the same - 32-34 minutes. Another factor is team turnovers. Duke was at 11 per game this year, 12 in 2012, 12 in 2011 and 11 in 2010. That's steady across Scheyer, Nolan, Kyrie, Seth, Tyler and Quinn. Seems like a safe bet to hold that constant.

For Quinn to get to 210 assists on the year he would have to have 20 more which is 0.5 per game more. For Quinn to get to 70 turnovers he would have to have 9 fewer or 0.3 or so per game. Both are doable. As a reference point, Duhon's ATO ratio held pretty constant from junior to senior year. It could be that Quinn is a fully baked point guard at this point. I suspect not. I expect improvement on both ends.

jv001
04-09-2013, 03:56 PM
Cook is our guy and I'm not going to bang on him!

His development from Fr to So was what allowed us to have the year we had. And it was a good year! He doenst come thru and its a less good year. So I'm hopeful that he continues to develop and add new wrinkles to his game.

At some point I suspect he either lost confidence or sustained an undisclosed injury (or both!) as he was not the same guy to close the season as he started the season IMHO..
Not sure why that is exactly... But I look for him to be even better next year.

I think think Quinn either lost confidence or was injured. Caught between a scoring point guard and a distributor. Or he had a nagging injury we don't know about. He's too good a player to play like he did at years end. GoQuinn and GoDuke!

vick
04-09-2013, 03:59 PM
Quinn went from 11 to 33 minutes per game. From 25.0% on 3s to 39.3%. From 1.9 assists to 5.3.

His assist to turnover ratio was 2.4 (190 to 79). In contrast, Trey Burke was at 3.3 (222 to 67) and Lorenzo Brown was at 2.07 (230 to 111).

If you assume Quinn gets a little more careful with the ball and a little more confident in pushing the pace and making plays, then I think he breaks the 3.0 assist to turnover ratio (with something like 210 assists and 70 turnovers).

The biggest area where Quinn can improve and take Duke to another level is with his defense. This past season he had 51 steals on the season, or 1.4 per game. Payton Siva has 90 (2.3 per game), Carter-Williams had 111 (2.8) and Shane Larkin had 71 (2.0). If Quinn can get to two steals per game and provide steady on-ball pressure without letting his guy get into the paint, that would be tremendous for next year's team.

We'll see what happens. I think 6 assists per game, 3.0 assist to TO ratio and 2.0 steals per game, coupled with a similar 40% from 3-land rate that he had this season, and Quinn will be 1st team All-ACC and could be in some All-American conversations.

I mostly agree with your take, but I'm actually more concerned with the number of assists (as an imperfect proxy for managing the team's offense) than with the assist-turnover ratio. It's always a bit dangerous to look at stats from a small set of games, but in our six losses this year, Cook only averaged 4.5 assists, with only 2 in the UVa and the tournament Maryland loss. I don't think either Hurley or J. Williams ever got above even 2.5 A/TO ratio, if memory serves. While turnovers are of course "bad" and you'd prefer them to be as low as possible, all things considered I'd be perfectly happy if Cook had the same assist-turnover ratio but got his assist percentage up into the mid-30s (vs. 29% this year)--in other words, better direction of the team offense at the expense of an occasional turnover.

jimsumner
04-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Quinn was at 190 assists and 79 tunrovers this past season in 33 minutes. I guess a lot depends on how you think his minutes change. It seems likely his minutes stay relatively the same - 32-34 minutes. Another factor is team turnovers. Duke was at 11 per game this year, 12 in 2012, 12 in 2011 and 11 in 2010. That's steady across Scheyer, Nolan, Kyrie, Seth, Tyler and Quinn. Seems like a safe bet to hold that constant.

For Quinn to get to 210 assists on the year he would have to have 20 more which is 0.5 per game more. For Quinn to get to 70 turnovers he would have to have 9 fewer or 0.3 or so per game. Both are doable. As a reference point, Duhon's ATO ratio held pretty constant from junior to senior year. It could be that Quinn is a fully baked point guard at this point. I suspect not. I expect improvement on both ends.

Wojo in 1997 is still the only Duke PG to average better than a 3-1 a/to ratio and he went 3.03:1. Scheyer was 2.98:1 in 2010.

Since assists became an official stat, Duke has had 10 player-seasons at 6.0 or better apg. Hurley had four of those.

So, if we're expecting 6.0 apg and 3.00:1 a/to ratio, we might be a tad on the optimistic side.

FWIW, Cook is aware of the negative body language and his tendency to dwell on mistakes in lieu of moving on quickly. It has been mentioned to him. By the appropriate parties.

A work in progress. But I think he was better as a sophomore than he was as a freshman and I think a continuation of that trend is both likely and beneficial.

superdave
04-09-2013, 04:30 PM
Of course Duke could run more next season and average 85 points per game. In that scenario Quinn's assists and turnovers would both likely be up.

Super "What else should we be speculating about?" Dave

freshmanjs
04-09-2013, 04:32 PM
Of course Duke could run more next season and average 85 points per game. In that scenario Quinn's assists and turnovers would both likely be up.

Super "What else should we be speculating about?" Dave

yes. i wouldn't mind some more turnovers if it's a result of a less cautious, run and gun type of offense. we will have the right players for that style. wojo and scheyer (with the 3:1 a-t ratios) both led pretty cautious versions of the Duke offense.

Olympic Fan
04-09-2013, 04:40 PM
There is perfection -- which we can agree that Cook is still short of ... but the the original question suggested that Cook might be the best PG in college basketball next year and depending on who leaves and who doesn't, you could make that case.

I don't know if Marcus Smart or Trey Burke are going pro or not. But I think Cook might rank better than some guys with a lot of hype. Take Aaron Craft for instance. Cook averaged more points (11.2 to 10.2), shot almost exactly the same from the field, shot 9 points better from 3, shot 11 points better from the foul line, had more assists, a better assist-to-turnover ratio and more rebounds. Craft had more steals. And, oh yes, Cook kicked his butt head-to-head.

Was Craft better than Cook?

Yeah, Cook had his ups and downs. He struggled against Louisville in Indy ... but he also excelled against the Cards in the Bahamas -- he dominated the game down the stretch and won the tourney MVP award. I think a guy who finished second in the ACC in total assists and second in assist-turnover ratio was a pretty good playmaker. Interesting, both the guy who had more assists (Brown) and the guy with a better assist/turnover ratio (Strickland) are leaving ... leaving Cook the top returnee in both categories.

Let's look at the ACC next year. With Brown gone, who are the great point guards in the ACC?

1. Shane Larkin -- if he returns, he's clearly No. 1.
I would suggest that either Cook or Notre Dame's Eric Atkins (a rising senior who has almost identical numbers to Cook last season) has to be No. 2 (or 1 if Larkin leaves)

Next would have to be either BC's Olivier Hanlan (was he their point? He handled a lot, but Joe Rahon actually played point most of the season -- he finished with significantly more assists) or UNC's Marcus Paige ... he finished strong but he scored less points, shot poorer percentages, had less assists and more turnovers than Cook

FSU's Devin Bookert also finished strong, but he's hardly in the discussion. Neither is Clemson's Rod Hall.

Who else?
Virginia. Maryland, Georgia Tech, NC State, Virginia Tech, Syracuse and Pitt will all be starting newcomers at the point. At Wake; they called Codi-Miller McIntrye their point, but he averaged eight points and less than 3 assists. I think Madison Jones plays the point for them next year and McIntyre is on a wing.

At any rate, the best point guards in the ACC next year going in appear be to Larkin (maybe), then Cook/Atkins (haven't seen enough of Atkins to really compare -- as I said, their stats are astonishingly similar). Maybe a newcomer will explode -- NC State's Cat Barber has a good reputation ... Maryland's Roddy Peters is a borderline top 50 guy. Nate Britt was well regarded before missing most of his senior prep year with injury.

But I like Duke's position. I don't think Cook gets a lot better, but I think as most players do when they fain experience, they gain confidence, consistency and maturity. There are not many point guards in the ACC -- or the nation -- that I would rather have going into next season (and I love backing him up wit senior Tyler Thornton ... knowing that TT also sees action on the wing).

CDu
04-09-2013, 04:50 PM
There is perfection -- which we can agree that Cook is still short of ... but the the original question suggested that Cook might be the best PG in college basketball next year and depending on who leaves and who doesn't, you could make that case.

I don't know if Marcus Smart or Trey Burke are going pro or not. But I think Cook might rank better than some guys with a lot of hype. Take Aaron Craft for instance. Cook averaged more points (11.2 to 10.2), shot almost exactly the same from the field, shot 9 points better from 3, shot 11 points better from the foul line, had more assists, a better assist-to-turnover ratio and more rebounds. Craft had more steals. And, oh yes, Cook kicked his butt head-to-head.

Was Craft better than Cook?

Yeah, Cook had his ups and downs. He struggled against Louisville in Indy ... but he also excelled against the Cards in the Bahamas -- he dominated the game down the stretch and won the tourney MVP award. I think a guy who finished second in the ACC in total assists and second in assist-turnover ratio was a pretty good playmaker. Interesting, both the guy who had more assists (Brown) and the guy with a better assist/turnover ratio (Strickland) are leaving ... leaving Cook the top returnee in both categories.

Let's look at the ACC next year. With Brown gone, who are the great point guards in the ACC?

1. Shane Larkin -- if he returns, he's clearly No. 1.
I would suggest that either Cook or Notre Dame's Eric Atkins (a rising senior who has almost identical numbers to Cook last season) has to be No. 2 (or 1 if Larkin leaves)

Next would have to be either BC's Olivier Hanlan (was he their point? He handled a lot, but Joe Rahon actually played point most of the season -- he finished with significantly more assists) or UNC's Marcus Paige ... he finished strong but he scored less points, shot poorer percentages, had less assists and more turnovers than Cook

FSU's Devin Bookert also finished strong, but he's hardly in the discussion. Neither is Clemson's Rod Hall.

Who else?
Virginia. Maryland, Georgia Tech, NC State, Virginia Tech, Syracuse and Pitt will all be starting newcomers at the point. At Wake; they called Codi-Miller McIntrye their point, but he averaged eight points and less than 3 assists. I think Madison Jones plays the point for them next year and McIntyre is on a wing.

At any rate, the best point guards in the ACC next year going in appear be to Larkin (maybe), then Cook/Atkins (haven't seen enough of Atkins to really compare -- as I said, their stats are astonishingly similar). Maybe a newcomer will explode -- NC State's Cat Barber has a good reputation ... Maryland's Roddy Peters is a borderline top 50 guy. Nate Britt was well regarded before missing most of his senior prep year with injury.

But I like Duke's position. I don't think Cook gets a lot better, but I think as most players do when they fain experience, they gain confidence, consistency and maturity. There are not many point guards in the ACC -- or the nation -- that I would rather have going into next season (and I love backing him up wit senior Tyler Thornton ... knowing that TT also sees action on the wing).

Agree with pretty much all of this, but just wanted to chime in that Hanlan is most definitely a SG at BC. Rahon is the PG.

Saratoga2
04-09-2013, 05:50 PM
Will Quinn be the best PG on the Duke team next season? Competition being Tyler, Rasheed and Matt? I think the answer is yes and coach K agrees as that is how he set up the team.

What are Quinn's strengths and weaknesses at PG?
Strengths: Experience fighting the wars.
Good Court awareness
Good handle
Toughness
Reasonable scoring ability (3 pt, mid range and penetration)
Willingness to go in and rebound
Weaknesses: Average speed and lateral quickness (as opposed to really quick)
Both he and Austin came in and hung their heads when things went wrong (still some of that)
High dribble
Inconsistent defensively
Quinn can improve his apparent attitude, his handle and his defense, which at times looked good but was inconsistent. He was good this year and should improve in the numbers department next season. He got some of his assists passing to Mason on the run but also Mason Often turned the ball over, some on Quinn inlets to him. In my view, not having Mason should be a wash.

Will he be the best in DIV I? Way to early to tell. I would be happy with a substantial improvement and a greater consistency.

MCFinARL
04-09-2013, 06:00 PM
I think think Quinn either lost confidence or was injured. Caught between a scoring point guard and a distributor. Or he had a nagging injury we don't know about. He's too good a player to play like he did at years end. GoQuinn and GoDuke!

Some of this may have related, also, to his changing role when Kelly was hurt, and he was expected to score more than before. That may have provided him with some new decisions to make about when to pass and when to drive or shoot. Then when Kelly returned, his role shifted again (as did Rasheed's). Obviously, none of this was as dramatic as the effect on Nolan Smith's role of Kyrie's return, but it still surely required some adjustments and, probably, more thinking about what to do in any given situation, which could affect both his confidence and the flow of his play. Adapting to changing roles seems like something more experience will make easier, if it's needed.

CoachJ10
04-09-2013, 07:34 PM
In order for Quin to take the next step in his growth...he needs to do 2 things (in my opinion).

a.) Get mentally stronger (as many posters have previously mentioned). That has been sufficiently talked about by other posters.

b.) Get physically stronger. We have seen what happens to Duke players who are skilled...but need more strength to become impact players (scheyer, nolan, jj, even mason). Quin needs to be stronger to be a more effective pick and roll defender. He also needs to be stronger so that on offense he can take the ball to the basket with more authority and to then finish. I think that the decision making choices (pass first, shoot first) that every point guard has to balance will be EASIER for him...if he is comfortable doing both things effectively. For a non-Duke example...look at Trey Burke. His passing and 3 pt shooting were only enhanced by his ability to do "the blow" by and get in the paint.

In this era of the big ten-ification of defense and reffing (grabbing, holding, etc.)...the primary ball handler has to be strong enough to handle that. I think Quin has all the skills to be a great point guard...getting stronger is what will take him to the next level.

sagegrouse
04-09-2013, 08:49 PM
Rasheed may be worth a separate thread....

I think Rasheed is the most powerful and dynamic guard for Duke since Jason Williams. When he attacks with the ball, he is faster than anyone else on the court, Duke or opponent. My tacit question (now voiced) is, "Could Rasheed be the best player in America next year?" He needs some more skills and consistency, but I would be happy to entertain the possibility.

And if Rasheed is as good as I think he could be, Quinn's job becomes a lot easier. "Everybody" will be gunning for Rasheed. Quinn should benefit.

On Quinn himself -- this year was kinda like a freshman year, wasn't it? He seemed to hit a will after about 25 games. I expect that with maturity and coaching the wall will be scaled, and I look forward to some terrific play from Mr. Cook in 2014.

sagegrouse

Newton_14
04-09-2013, 09:42 PM
In order for Quin to take the next step in his growth...he needs to do 2 things (in my opinion).

a.) Get mentally stronger (as many posters have previously mentioned). That has been sufficiently talked about by other posters.

b.) Get physically stronger. We have seen what happens to Duke players who are skilled...but need more strength to become impact players (scheyer, nolan, jj, even mason). Quin needs to be stronger to be a more effective pick and roll defender. He also needs to be stronger so that on offense he can take the ball to the basket with more authority and to then finish. I think that the decision making choices (pass first, shoot first) that every point guard has to balance will be EASIER for him...if he is comfortable doing both things effectively. For a non-Duke example...look at Trey Burke. His passing and 3 pt shooting were only enhanced by his ability to do "the blow" by and get in the paint.

In this era of the big ten-ification of defense and reffing (grabbing, holding, etc.)...the primary ball handler has to be strong enough to handle that. I think Quin has all the skills to be a great point guard...getting stronger is what will take him to the next level.

This times a thousand. Watch tape of last nights game over and over, lose the pouting and move directly to Next Play. Attack the rim with abandon, attack the ball handler with abandon, and never give up on running a player down and stripping the player attempting the break away layup. Siva was great at that part last night. Sive and Burke were great at attacking the rim hard without fear of anything negative happening, using both power and slithering athletic moves to get by the defenders and get the shot up on goal, seeking the contact where possible. It either goes in, and/or you draw the foul, or the Duke bigs are unboxed out and ready for putbacks due to their defenders leaving them in the attempt to stop Quinn. To do all of that, you need upperbody strength, as well as leg strength. Hit the weight room relentlessly in the offseason getting as strong as you possibly can. With strength also comes added stamina.



Rasheed may be worth a separate thread....

On Quinn himself -- this year was kinda like a freshman year, wasn't it? He seemed to hit a will after about 25 games. I expect that with maturity and coaching the wall will be scaled, and I look forward to some terrific play from Mr. Cook in 2014.

sagegrouse

This times a thousand. Some of the great PG's develop and transition to greatness year over year with experience, like Hurley for example. Others, like Kyrie need a handful of games to get to that level. Quinn falls into the Hurley roadmap. Hurley came into his own in the 2nd half of his Sophomore season. Unlike Hurley, Quinn did not play enough as a freshman to hit that level as a late year Soph. Instead, like someone earlier upthread opined, Quinn hit the freshman "wall" this year. With that, Quinn likely becomes that consistently great level about a 1/3 of the way into his Jr campaign.

If the will to work is there, and I believe it is, I expect this transition to occur for Quinn sometime in the first half of next season. We will recognize it when it happens and it may come on suddenly out of nowhere. With a much improved Rasheed by his side, it can be a very dynamic and powerful backcourt, especially with the wings and forwards they will be on the floor with.

licc85
04-09-2013, 09:55 PM
I think you guys are forgetting about the incoming freshman class. Andrew Harrison SHOULD be the best point guard in the country, at least in terms of talent. Although I've been one of Quinn's staunchest supporters since his high school days, I don't see him as a top 5 point guard next year. He's obviously very solid, capable of distributing the ball, being a threat to score, and taking care of the ball, but he's undersized, doesn't have elite quickness, and his leadership/intangibles leave a lot to be desired. I can see him maybe being in this category as a senior, but next year, I don't think he's going to be in the conversation for All-America or anything like that. That said, I'm pretty comfortable with Quinn as our starting PG next year. He's a very adequate PG, one of the best in the ACC, and I'm happy with his growth thus far, and look forward to seeing how much he can improve next year.

Newton_14
04-09-2013, 10:07 PM
I think you guys are forgetting about the incoming freshman class. Andrew Harrison SHOULD be the best point guard in the country, at least in terms of talent. Although I've been one of Quinn's staunchest supporters since his high school days, I don't see him as a top 5 point guard next year. He's obviously very solid, capable of distributing the ball, being a threat to score, and taking care of the ball, but he's undersized, doesn't have elite quickness, and his leadership/intangibles leave a lot to be desired. I can see him maybe being in this category as a senior, but next year, I don't think he's going to be in the conversation for All-America or anything like that. That said, I'm pretty comfortable with Quinn as our starting PG next year. He's a very adequate PG, one of the best in the ACC, and I'm happy with his growth thus far, and look forward to seeing how much he can improve next year.


I will respectfully disagree here. Quinn is well beyond an "adequate PG" right now, and in my view he does have elite quickness north/south with the ball. Surprised that some keep stating he is not quick. He is. The talent is very much there. His size is plenty adequate to be an elite College PG. He needs to improve for sure, but there is no valid reason why he cannot be one of the best PG's in the country next year.

There is no guarantee of course, and he will need to work really hard in the offseason to achieve that level of play.

licc85
04-09-2013, 10:48 PM
I will respectfully disagree here. Quinn is well beyond an "adequate PG" right now, and in my view he does have elite quickness north/south with the ball. Surprised that some keep stating he is not quick. He is. The talent is very much there. His size is plenty adequate to be an elite College PG. He needs to improve for sure, but there is no valid reason why he cannot be one of the best PG's in the country next year.

There is no guarantee of course, and he will need to work really hard in the offseason to achieve that level of play.

The title of the thread is not whether or not he can be "one of the best," but is he THE best PG . . which he won't be. Perhaps I should have worded my response differently, since "adequate" probably underestimates Quinn's ability. He's obviously capable of being a top 10 point guard in the country. My argument was that he's not going to be in the conversation for All-America honors, but that doesn't mean he won't be really, really good. He should challenge Larkin for the title of best in the ACC.

Newton_14
04-09-2013, 10:50 PM
The title of the thread is not whether or not he can be "one of the best," but is he THE best PG . . which he won't be. Perhaps I should have worded my response differently, since "adequate" probably underestimates Quinn's ability. He's obviously capable of being a top 10 point guard in the country. My argument was that he's not going to be in the conversation for All-America honors, but that doesn't mean he won't be really, really good.

Ok, yeah I can agree there for sure.

Olympic Fan
04-10-2013, 12:16 AM
I think you guys are forgetting about the incoming freshman class. Andrew Harrison SHOULD be the best point guard in the country, at least in terms of talent. Although I've been one of Quinn's staunchest supporters since his high school days, I don't see him as a top 5 point guard next year. He's obviously very solid, capable of distributing the ball, being a threat to score, and taking care of the ball, but he's undersized, doesn't have elite quickness, and his leadership/intangibles leave a lot to be desired. I can see him maybe being in this category as a senior, but next year, I don't think he's going to be in the conversation for All-America or anything like that. That said, I'm pretty comfortable with Quinn as our starting PG next year. He's a very adequate PG, one of the best in the ACC, and I'm happy with his growth thus far, and look forward to seeing how much he can improve next year.

Not forgetting at all. Just remembering how Harrison Barnes was anointed a preseason All-American before he played a game at UNC. How Andre Dummond was touted as the best big man in the country before he played a game at UCONN.

Look, a lot of freshmen do turn out to be studs. But a lot turn out to be flops -- at least in terms of immediate impact (think Kentucky this year with three top 10 recruits)

I'm not anointing any freshman as a preseason anything (including Jabari Parker). If he proves it -- fine -- as Anthony Davis did two years ago. As Kyrie was doing before he was hurt.

Andrew Harrison may be great ... but the whispers about his selfishness and how he and his brother are two most unpopular kids on the AAU circuit (because of their selfish play) may produce chemistry problems. Not saying they will ... but let's let the guy prove something on the college level before we consider him the best or one of the best PGs in college basketball.

Cook is a proven commodity ... I would argue he was one of the top 10-12 point guards in college basketball last season. He may be passed by a freshman or two or three next year ... but the departure of at least half a dozen guys who ranked ahead of him last season (Diva, Brown, Burke, Smart ... maybe Larkin) is going to push him wa-a-a-y up the list.

The best in the country might be a little too much to hope for ... but don't sell him short. A GREAT chance that with normal development between his first and second year as a regular, Cook will be in the top 5.

sporthenry
04-10-2013, 12:17 AM
Rasheed may be worth a separate thread....

I think Rasheed is the most powerful and dynamic guard for Duke since Jason Williams. When he attacks with the ball, he is faster than anyone else on the court, Duke or opponent. My tacit question (now voiced) is, "Could Rasheed be the best player in America next year?" He needs some more skills and consistency, but I would be happy to entertain the possibility.

And if Rasheed is as good as I think he could be, Quinn's job becomes a lot easier. "Everybody" will be gunning for Rasheed. Quinn should benefit.

On Quinn himself -- this year was kinda like a freshman year, wasn't it? He seemed to hit a will after about 25 games. I expect that with maturity and coaching the wall will be scaled, and I look forward to some terrific play from Mr. Cook in 2014.

sagegrouse

Not to derail it too much but I think we'll know what we'll get from Sheed. Seems like biggest jump from freshmen to sophomore year and I'd expect Sheed to play at a high level i.e. playing at an All ACC level. But Cook is more of a question mark and considering the offense will probably start with him, I think he'll be more of the x-factor. The motion offense works off the picks and if Cook can't get separation off the picks, it could continue to be an issue. I guess the good part might be that we'll be able to put the ball in Sheed, or even Hood or Parkers hands and run picks for them and Cook can shoot well enough to have the defense respect him but I have a feeling that he'll have the ball in his hands as the shot clock winds down which is where I think he'll make either the biggest different or leave something to be desired.

miramar
04-10-2013, 12:28 AM
On Quinn himself -- this year was kinda like a freshman year, wasn't it? He seemed to hit a will after about 25 games. I expect that with maturity and coaching the wall will be scaled, and I look forward to some terrific play from Mr. Cook in 2014.

sagegrouse

I got the same impression about the freshman-like season, perhaps because Quin's injury problems prevented him from having a normal first year. While we can go back further and take a look at other statistics, Quinn shot only 11/42 in the five postseason games (26.2%), which I am sure will not happen next year. Whether Quinn is the best PG or not, with Tyler, Rasheed, a returning Andre, and an incoming Matt Jones, Duke will have outstanding guard play next season. Can't wait.

dukeofcalabash
04-10-2013, 02:12 AM
I'll just say that Quinn has a long, long way to go to be the best PG. He may some after effects from his injury, but I believe he needs to focus much more on each moment if he's to show that much improvement. Consistency, or lack of, is a big problem for him at this time.

Troublemaker
04-10-2013, 07:58 AM
A huge clue for this interesting question might be found in an unexpected place: whether Quinn gets named co-captain alongside Tyler (who, I think, is a given for captaincy).

Coach K always talks about players making themselves better by taking ownership of the team, being a vocal leader, organizing team functions, becoming extremely close with the coaching staff, essentially becoming the staff's extension and being a player-coach to their teammates. Mason was able to make this transformation, Coach K raved about it, and then Mason went out and had a monster senior year.

MCFinARL
04-10-2013, 10:38 AM
A huge clue for this interesting question might be found in an unexpected place: whether Quinn gets named co-captain alongside Tyler (who, I think, is a given for captaincy).

Coach K always talks about players making themselves better by taking ownership of the team, being a vocal leader, organizing team functions, becoming extremely close with the coaching staff, essentially becoming the staff's extension and being a player-coach to their teammates. Mason was able to make this transformation, Coach K raved about it, and then Mason went out and had a monster senior year.

Yes. The best case scenario for next year's team is that Quinn is an acknowledged leader of the team, on and off the court. If Coach K thinks he is ready to take on that responsibility, it seems likely that he will be named a co-captain (and I agree that Tyler will be named a captain in any case), and it also seems likely that naming him a co-captain will help him to take that next step.

One possibility, I suppose, would be something like Seth--that Tyler would be named captain right away and Quinn possibly be added as a co-captain later, depending on his showing particular leadership qualities in practices and team-related events.

CDu
04-10-2013, 10:38 AM
I think you guys are forgetting about the incoming freshman class. Andrew Harrison SHOULD be the best point guard in the country, at least in terms of talent. Although I've been one of Quinn's staunchest supporters since his high school days, I don't see him as a top 5 point guard next year. He's obviously very solid, capable of distributing the ball, being a threat to score, and taking care of the ball, but he's undersized, doesn't have elite quickness, and his leadership/intangibles leave a lot to be desired. I can see him maybe being in this category as a senior, but next year, I don't think he's going to be in the conversation for All-America or anything like that. That said, I'm pretty comfortable with Quinn as our starting PG next year. He's a very adequate PG, one of the best in the ACC, and I'm happy with his growth thus far, and look forward to seeing how much he can improve next year.

As Olympic Fan said, I don't think anyone is forgetting the freshman. I just am not sold that they'll be better next year than a third-year Cook (who as a second-year guy was 2nd-Team All-ACC and at times looked like the best player on the floor). Obviously, anything can happen, and Cook definitely needs to improve his confidence and consistency. But I think he absolutely needs to be in the discussion, especially if guys like Burke and Larkin decide to go pro.


I'll just say that Quinn has a long, long way to go to be the best PG. He may some after effects from his injury, but I believe he needs to focus much more on each moment if he's to show that much improvement. Consistency, or lack of, is a big problem for him at this time.

If you're going to say he has a long, long way to go, then you need to provide some sort of reference that he'd be shooting for. Remember - most of the top-20 PG this year were seniors or are likely lottery picks this year. So part of the discussion is that the quality of PG play may be somewhat down next year across the board. As such, if Cook (who I'd say was a top-25ish PG this year) improves, he should be in the discussion.

Wander
04-10-2013, 11:41 AM
Take Aaron Craft for instance. Cook averaged more points (11.2 to 10.2), shot almost exactly the same from the field, shot 9 points better from 3, shot 11 points better from the foul line, had more assists, a better assist-to-turnover ratio and more rebounds. Craft had more steals. And, oh yes, Cook kicked his butt head-to-head.


As I'm sure you know, this isn't a fair or complete comparison. I think everyone would admit Cook was better than Craft on offense. The primary reason Craft is regarded so highly is because of his defense, and not just steals. He was first team overall Big 10, and second only to Oladipo in the Big 10 defensive player of the year award.

So, Craft probably deserves to be considered slightly ahead of Cook going into next season. But they're about the same.

CDu
04-10-2013, 11:46 AM
As I'm sure you know, this isn't a fair or complete comparison. I think everyone would admit Cook was better than Craft on offense. The primary reason Craft is regarded so highly is because of his defense, and not just steals. He was first team overall Big 10, and second only to Oladipo in the Big 10 defensive player of the year award.

So, Craft probably deserves to be considered slightly ahead of Cook going into next season. But they're about the same.

I'd agree with that. The question will be how much better Cook gets (both offensively and defensively). I don't know that Craft can get too much better offensively, and obviously he's already a phenomenal defensive player. I think Cook has more upside, but Craft has a higher floor (and is slightly better right now).

dukeofcalabash
04-10-2013, 12:58 PM
As Olympic Fan said, I don't think anyone is forgetting the freshman. I just am not sold that they'll be better next year than a third-year Cook (who as a second-year guy was 2nd-Team All-ACC and at times looked like the best player on the floor). Obviously, anything can happen, and Cook definitely needs to improve his confidence and consistency. But I think he absolutely needs to be in the discussion, especially if guys like Burke and Larkin decide to go pro.



If you're going to say he has a long, long way to go, then you need to provide some sort of reference that he'd be shooting for. Remember - most of the top-20 PG this year were seniors or are likely lottery picks this year. So part of the discussion is that the quality of PG play may be somewhat down next year across the board. As such, if Cook (who I'd say was a top-25ish PG this year) improves, he should be in the discussion.

No, I don't have to provide references of any kind. I will simply say that his play as a PG this year was worse at year end than before mid-year, he was not leading by example as a PG should in areas of enthusiasm or output, and he seemed content to watch a lot of the game. A PG of the caliber to which you want to boost him is reserved for those who take over when required and make the most of those opportunities either by scoring or by putting the ball in the hands of those who can and at the right time. He exhorts others to do better, demands it, and gets it from his team. That's what a top PG does for this team. Either Quinn changes in these areas or he won't even make All-ACC next year. Why do you think Coach K had to go through his "theatrics" on the bench this year? He knew he did not have a championship type leader on the floor!

CDu
04-10-2013, 01:12 PM
No, I don't have to provide references of any kind. I will simply say that his play as a PG this year was worse at year end than before mid-year, he was not leading by example as a PG should in areas of enthusiasm or output, and he seemed content to watch a lot of the game. A PG of the caliber to which you want to boost him is reserved for those who take over when required and make the most of those opportunities either by scoring or by putting the ball in the hands of those who can and at the right time. He exhorts others to do better, demands it, and gets it from his team. That's what a top PG does for this team. Either Quinn changes in these areas or he won't even make All-ACC next year. Why do you think Coach K had to go through his "theatrics" on the bench this year? He knew he did not have a championship type leader on the floor!

I agree that the Cook who played in the second half of the year would not be the best PG. But my point was can you name anyone you think will be better next year than the Cook that played PG in the first half of the year? If Cook plays like he did to start the season, I don't know that any returning PG will be better than him unless Larkin and Burke return. If he improves at all on that, then I'm quite sure that Cook will be the best of the returnees (again, unless Burke and Larkin return). Cook doesn't have to get worlds better to be an elite PG - he just has to at least return to form.

dukeofcalabash
04-10-2013, 01:34 PM
I agree that the Cook who played in the second half of the year would not be the best PG. But my point was can you name anyone you think will be better next year than the Cook that played PG in the first half of the year? If Cook plays like he did to start the season, I don't know that any returning PG will be better than him unless Larkin and Burke return. If he improves at all on that, then I'm quite sure that Cook will be the best of the returnees (again, unless Burke and Larkin return). Cook doesn't have to get worlds better to be an elite PG - he just has to at least return to form.

I understand where you're coming from, but I go with what was there at the end of the year. Sometimes players play beyond their level for awhile, but usually settle into a 'norm' that establishes who they are. The jury is out on Mr. Cook (as far as I'm concerned) and it will certainly be interesting as to who shows up next year --- the early PG we had or the later PG we now have. I believe we are both hoping for the better of the two.

Ichabod Drain
04-10-2013, 01:39 PM
It's hard to imagine Andrew Harrison not looking pretty amazing next year. He has the ability to score but at the same time could deal out a lot of helpers with all that talent around him. Also, he's 6'5" 210 and very physical, pretty scary for a college PG.

That said Cook has shown his ability to score as well and he will also have a whole lot of talent around him next year. Should be a fun year.

CDu
04-10-2013, 01:43 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but I go with what was there at the end of the year. Sometimes players play beyond their level for awhile, but usually settle into a 'norm' that establishes who they are. The jury is out on Mr. Cook (as far as I'm concerned) and it will certainly be interesting as to who shows up next year --- the early PG we had or the later PG we now have. I believe we are both hoping for the better of the two.

Totally fair viewpoint. I tend to believe that a lot of what went wrong for Cook was due to the multiple personalities he was required to have this year. Early in the season (when we clearly had 4 other scoring weapons in Mason, Kelly, Curry, and Sulaimon), Cook was asked to be the floor general. And he thrived. But midway through the season, Kelly went down and Sulaimon started to slump offensively, and Coach K asked Cook to take on more of a scoring role. And Cook did so. But in doing so, he let his PG/playmaking duties slip a bit. When Kelly returned and Sulaimon started going again, I think that Cook got stuck somewhat lost between scorer and distributor. And that shook his confidence, which is why he struggled so much in Indianapolis and even before that.

I am hopeful that next year's team (which should have no shortage of scoring options) will allow Cook to re-establish himself as PG first. But I can respect your view that he needs to prove that the end of last year was a fluke and not "the norm" before you'll believe it.

Olympic Fan
04-10-2013, 02:43 PM
It's amazing to me how many Duke fans continue to view the world through negative goggles ...

Was Cook really so terrible at the end of the year or did he just hit a shooting slump at a bad time?

You want him to be a playmaker and a leader? Well, in the four NCAA Tournament games he passed out 24 assists and had just seven turnovers -- that includes 5 assists and one turnover against Louisville. Frankly, I'll take that.

Yeah, his shooting disappeared -- he ended the year on an 0-for-11 streak from 3 ... kind of like Kelly (and Sulaimon wasn't much better). That defines him as a player?

How about his four-game stretch to end the regular season? Cook hit 24 of 48 shots at Virginia, against Miami, VPI and at UNC, including 13-of-26 3-pointers. Over the last half of the season, he was practically perfect from the foul line (a pretty nice skill for a point guard).

Tell me, was that an example of a player playing well "early" (the last four games of the regular season), but finding his natural level in the NCAA Tournament?

He had a bad game against Maryland in the ACC Tournament (again, he was not the only one). He had some ups and downs over the course o the season. But he was a first-year tarter, dealing with a team that totally changed its character at midseason. He as one of the nation's premier point guards ... maybe not top 10, but close to it. Attrition and graduation is going to move him up the list faster than the one or two freshmen who will explode move him down. Cook will be better next year -- both in absolute terms and relative to the nation's other top point guards.

Compare his performance as a sophomore to the other great point guards in Duke history:

-- His sophomore numbers are amazingly similar to Bobby Hurley in 1991 -- both in scoring and shooting percentage. Hurley did pass out a lot more assists, but Cook actually had a better assist-to-turnover ratio.
-- Tommy Amaker was less effective offensively. He had a handful more assists and a slightly better assist/TO ratio,
-- Chris Duhon scored less and shot poorer than Cook as a soph on 2002. He had slightly more assists and almost exactly the same number of turnovers
-- Steve Wojciechowski was a marginal player as a soph -- averaging 3.4 points and less than 3 assists a game ... indeed, in 1996, Wojo was essentially Tyler Thornton in 2013.
Jason Williams was the one sophomore point guard who was significantly better than Cook.

I would argue that Amaker and Hurley were better defenders as sophs. But I would also point out that they were starting for the second year as sophs. If you go back and compare first-year starting performances (Hurley in '90; Amaker in '84) Cook's performance looks a lot better -- especially when it comes to playmaker numbers.

As I said, I don't understand the negativity. Cook suffered from a postseason shooting clump. Period. But his season-long performance at the point stacks up with the bet sophomore point guards in Duke history (except for Jason Williams).

PS As for the comparison with Craft ... Cook is a better offensive player and a better playmaker. I agree that Craft is a better defender -- that doesn't make him a better POINT GUARD than Cook. And as for his great defense ... I understand it's one game, but he did hold Cook to 3-10 shooting in their matchup ... but should we credit Cook with holding Craft to 3-15 shooting on the other end? Cook had eight assists and three turnovers against Craft's defense ... Craft had one assist and three turnovers against Cook's defense.

BD80
04-10-2013, 02:45 PM
Totally fair viewpoint. I tend to believe that a lot of what went wrong for Cook was due to the multiple personalities he was required to have this year. Early in the season (when we clearly had 4 other scoring weapons in Mason, Kelly, Curry, and Sulaimon), Cook was asked to be the floor general. And he thrived. But midway through the season, Kelly went down and Sulaimon started to slump offensively, and Coach K asked Cook to take on more of a scoring role. And Cook did so. But in doing so, he let his PG/playmaking duties slip a bit. When Kelly returned and Sulaimon started going again, I think that Cook got stuck somewhat lost between scorer and distributor. And that shook his confidence, which is why he struggled so much in Indianapolis and even before that. ...

Also remember that Quinn hadn't played a full season of basketball in several years, and the grind probably hit him harder than most. I suspect that he and Tyler matched up in practice every day, which may have taken a toll as well.

The difference in his various roles was quite significant. The offense with Ryan was substantially different than with Josh/Amile, as were the defensive schemes we'd confront. Ryan would pull a post defender from the lane, creating a driving lane. Further, Sheed's slump required Quinn to handle the ball much more from a set. Sheed tends to score most effectively when initiating, which would draw defenses out of their sets, and give Quinn room to work when receiving the ball from Sheed. During the slump, Sheed pretty much disappeared for stretches, leaving Quinn to confront a set defense.

Troublemaker
04-10-2013, 02:58 PM
I think Craft is better than Quinn. Besides being a great defender, Craft became a very good penetrator this season (penetrating at will against some opponents) and he's an excellent leader by many accounts. No knock on Quinn, of course. Craft is just the consummate 4-year college point guard.

Kedsy
04-10-2013, 03:01 PM
As I said, I don't understand the negativity. Cook suffered from a postseason shooting clump. Period. But his season-long performance at the point stacks up with the bet sophomore point guards in Duke history (except for Jason Williams).

I imagine the negativity springs from the fact that in Quinn had 3 or fewer assists in 6 of his last 9 regular season games. While it's true that only happened in two of his five post-season games, that's still probably too many for an elite PG, and it still probably looms as a big question mark.


PS As for the comparison with Craft ... Cook is a better offensive player and a better playmaker. I agree that Craft is a better defender -- that doesn't make him a better POINT GUARD than Cook.

I hear you, but Craft isn't just a better defender than Quinn, he's a game-changing defender. Frankly, with no offense intended toward Quinn, if I'm picking teams on the playground I think I'd have to take Craft ahead of Quinn. And I don't think I'd agonize too long over the decision.

Duvall
04-10-2013, 03:01 PM
I think Craft is better than Quinn. Besides being a great defender, Craft became a very good penetrator this season (penetrating at will against some opponents) and he's an excellent leader by many accounts. No knock on Quinn, of course. Craft is just the consummate 4-year college point guard.

Yes, but could Craft make the layups after penetrating at will? That's been something of a struggle for him.

Wander
04-10-2013, 03:59 PM
It's amazing to me how many Duke fans continue to view the world through negative goggles ...


Well, the discussion here is about whether Cook will be the BEST point guard in the COUNTRY. I don't think that having the opinion that a few guys out of 345 starting point guards, like Craft, are or will be better is having "negative goggles." He's a good player.

I do agree with CDu that Cook has a higher ceiling than Craft - but we'll see how that works out to actual performance next year.

licc85
04-10-2013, 11:05 PM
I imagine the negativity springs from the fact that in Quinn had 3 or fewer assists in 6 of his last 9 regular season games. While it's true that only happened in two of his five post-season games, that's still probably too many for an elite PG, and it still probably looms as a big question mark.



I hear you, but Craft isn't just a better defender than Quinn, he's a game-changing defender. Frankly, with no offense intended toward Quinn, if I'm picking teams on the playground I think I'd have to take Craft ahead of Quinn. And I don't think I'd agonize too long over the decision.

I agree, Craft's defense is a very strong attribute that tilts the comparison in his favor. Quinn played well defensively at the beginning of the year (Although I suspect it had a lot to do with the over all team defense at that time), but towards the end of the season, it seemed like he couldn't stay in front of anybody. Honestly, if Quinn stepped up his defensive game and everything else about his game stayed that same, I'd call it a HUGE improvement, and a massive win for the team.

Next year, it would also be really great if he stopped the making faces and pouting whenever something negative happens, and also would be nice if he improved his shot selection, especially since we're going to have 2 or 3 guys who need to be taking more shots than Quinn. No more heat checks when there is no heat to check.

gofurman
04-10-2013, 11:09 PM
I love Quinn Cook, and certainly agree that he made a big leap from his Fresh to his Soph year. A lot of that is the fact that he was healthy and a lot of that was Austin Rivers leaving.

With that said, Cook has a long way to go. I don't like picking on players, but I think on a Duke fan website we can talk about a players weakness. For me, he doesn't have point guard instincts. I see him more as a Nolan Smith combo guard. Both on Offense and Defense, Cook has a lot to learn about running a team.

I watched him against Louisville and thought his body language was terrible. Most of the night, he looked like he didn't want the ball in his hands. When Louisville pressed, I thought Quinn was hesitant. He didn't work his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. off to get open on inbounds play and he didn't work hard enough to help out Kelly and Mason bring the ball up court. I think his confidence was shaken from the Mich State game.

Quinn really needs to improve his footwork defensively. He plays defense with his hands way too much. He needs to get back to penetrating and turning the corner on people.

Next year is going to be really interesting with Sheed and Hood on the wings, two guards who can get their own shot off the dribble. Maybe that will take some pressure off of Quinn to be the primary distributor. I still think Quinn needs to improve on reading a game, learning how to control the tempo of a game (how to speed it up when we want to play fast and how to slow it down when we want to slow down).

I expect another great improvement from him and I think a lot of these issues will be addressed in the summer.

This - turn the corner and go - penetrate with disregard for your own safety.. Watch tape of Peyton Siva and Trey Burke. Key to our season right there

Kedsy
04-10-2013, 11:19 PM
Watch tape of Peyton Siva and Trey Burke. Key to our season right there

Well, if I watched tape of Siva and Burke every night for a year, I still wouldn't be able to do the things they can do. Can Quinn? I don't know. But I think the issue may very well be something beyond Quinn's trying to emulate players who seem to be a lot quicker than he is.

gep
04-10-2013, 11:58 PM
Well, if I watched tape of Siva and Burke every night for a year, I still wouldn't be able to do the things they can do. Can Quinn? I don't know. But I think the issue may very well be something beyond Quinn's trying to emulate players who seem to be a lot quicker than he is.

Is it possible that the coaches have a great influence on what Quinn does in games, knowing what they see in practice, etc :confused:

greybeard
04-11-2013, 12:05 AM
I don't know, things got really kind of murky as the season progressed. First, more and more Curry's role as the shooting guard looked like the point position from an occupying the ball standpoint. Second, Mason, I think tired and also was probably dinged somewhere on his left leg/ankle/foot. At any rate, his offensive punch, or less of it, was a double edged sword, both sides sharp. On the one hand, one of Cook's best assets in creating pass-penetration lanes to open that he sees two steps ahead. Mason wasn't creating/reacting/ being active with the intensity he had been earlier and that took away from Cook's game. Third, because Mason seemed less of a three, teams tried to shut down Curry and to a slightly lesser extent Cook. Between the passing lanes being closed and the diminished options Cook's upside was diminished.

Cook, I think, can get in the lane very often but there are guys with near h8is skill set, lots of them, who are beyond outstanding quick, fast, strong, leapers who attack the rim. Cook sort of toys and finds/creates an opening that depends of cleverness, a sudden burst of speed to turn the corner or some trick to get a guy lunging.

I really like watching Cook play, almost as much as I really, really, really like watching Curry play (that, to me, was a very special opportunity). From a watching standpoint, Cook would have to be very near the top, right for me on the offensive end. From a flat out effectiveness point of view, I'm thinking a tier below the highest echelon. As for defense, there are points who are flat out more effective. I'd still like watching Cook then most of them.

How bout that Curry. You can watch for years, and never see the combination of enjoying the game, being great at it, and having physical limitations that put a ceiling on how far he can reach. I enjoyed watching this kid's mastery of the offensive game , and that incredible smile he wore when games were close and he had made a major contribution to its outcome in Dukes favor. There was a ballplayer. When comes such another.

JNort
04-11-2013, 08:21 AM
The best? Idk but I think he will be one of the premier pgs (top 10) in the country. Larkin will lose some love most likely since they lose so much and he can't carry the load (I don't think so anyway), Brown is gone, Green is gone. Paige is the only real competition in the ACC next year and I think Quinn can still own him.

Scorp4me
04-11-2013, 10:49 AM
It's amazing to me how many Duke fans continue to view the world through negative goggles ...


It's gotten to the point where I'll be glad when Thornton and Cook graduate, two players who I must clarify I really like. I've never seen two players treated so different. On who seems to get a pass for just about everything and the other who seems to get no credit for just about anything.

In my personal opinion, Cook isn't as good as everyone wants him to be. And Thornton isn't as bad as everyone claims him to be. If we could just accept that and appreciate them for what they do contribute we'd all be alot happier.

Skitzle
04-11-2013, 11:11 AM
It's gotten to the point where I'll be glad when Thornton and Cook graduate, two players who I must clarify I really like. I've never seen two players treated so different. On who seems to get a pass for just about everything and the other who seems to get no credit for just about anything.

In my personal opinion, Cook isn't as good as everyone wants him to be. And Thornton isn't as bad as everyone claims him to be. If we could just accept that and appreciate them for what they do contribute we'd all be alot happier.

I don't know that I've ever seen anyone bad mouth Thornton on this board. If there was ever anyone that was highlighted for his ability to produce within his role it was Tyler Thornton. There was a whole thread about how this idea was totally wrong... Link (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?31019-Question-about-Tyler-s-value-to-this-team&highlight=thornton)

In regards to Quinn Cook, I think we all see his potential and we want him to be better. Suffice it to say that if he didn't progress at all between this year and next year, everyone (K and Cook included) would be very disappointed. This whole thread is about us discussing JUST how good Quinn can be.

He has the potential to be the best PG in college basketball next year, and there is an expectation for him to be at least among the best in the NCAA. You're saying he's not that good? I hope he proves you wrong :D.

azzefkram
04-11-2013, 11:38 AM
It's gotten to the point where I'll be glad when Thornton and Cook graduate, two players who I must clarify I really like. I've never seen two players treated so different. On who seems to get a pass for just about everything and the other who seems to get no credit for just about anything.

In my personal opinion, Cook isn't as good as everyone wants him to be. And Thornton isn't as bad as everyone claims him to be. If we could just accept that and appreciate them for what they do contribute we'd all be alot happier.

It's funny you write that since I come at it from the exactly opposite viewpoint. I feel that most poster nit-pick Quinn to death while ignoring Tyler's sometimes glaring errors. I will agree with you that I like them both as players and am very happy that both play for Duke.

CDu
04-11-2013, 02:21 PM
I don't know that I've ever seen anyone bad mouth Thornton on this board. If there was ever anyone that was highlighted for his ability to produce within his role it was Tyler Thornton. There was a whole thread about how this idea was totally wrong... Link (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?31019-Question-about-Tyler-s-value-to-this-team&highlight=thornton)

In regards to Quinn Cook, I think we all see his potential and we want him to be better. Suffice it to say that if he didn't progress at all between this year and next year, everyone (K and Cook included) would be very disappointed. This whole thread is about us discussing JUST how good Quinn can be.

He has the potential to be the best PG in college basketball next year, and there is an expectation for him to be at least among the best in the NCAA. You're saying he's not that good? I hope he proves you wrong :D.


It's funny you write that since I come at it from the exactly opposite viewpoint. I feel that most poster nit-pick Quinn to death while ignoring Tyler's sometimes glaring errors. I will agree with you that I like them both as players and am very happy that both play for Duke.

I agree. I think Thornton is a fantastic role player for us. I think folks know his limitations, but I think he's generally given plenty of praise on these boards. Cook is clearly the more talented player, but certainly seems to draw plenty of criticism.

Both players are key players for Duke. Cook is our only true playmaker, and his energy/enthusiasm can be infectious. Thornton is our defensive floor general, and his court awareness, vocal orchestration, and toughness are huge. Both players have their limitations. Cook seems to lack confidence and at times will get down on himself, and he's not a consistent defender. Thornton is a very limited offensive player and can't really create shots for himself or others (hence his move away from PG this year).

gofurman
04-12-2013, 06:44 PM
The best? Idk but I think he will be one of the premier pgs (top 10) in the country. Larkin will lose some love most likely since they lose so much and he can't carry the load (I don't think so anyway), Brown is gone, Green is gone. Paige is the only real competition in the ACC next year and I think Quinn can still own him.

So who is left for Cook as "best" PG competition nationwide?
Kabongo declared he is leaving..

Here is who I know:
Larkin for sure is great - a killer though without a team
Cook
Paige improving
Aaron Craft is a defensive dynamo and smart leader (honestly a more athletic and better defensive Scheyer).. though I dont know about his 3pt shooting?
Burke has not declared, right? If he stays he is better
Russ Smith is great as a "Daniel Ewing" who can go rim to rim ... more of a scorer but still. I thought he was gone but now there seems to be some confusion? If he stays he is a killer

*Who am I forgetting as great PGs next year? please help me with this list.

subzero02
04-12-2013, 07:31 PM
I agree. I think Thornton is a fantastic role player for us. I think folks know his limitations, but I think he's generally given plenty of praise on these boards. Cook is clearly the more talented player, but certainly seems to draw plenty of criticism.

Both players are key players for Duke. Cook is our only true playmaker, and his energy/enthusiasm can be infectious. Thornton is our defensive floor general, and his court awareness, vocal orchestration, and toughness are huge. Both players have their limitations. Cook seems to lack confidence and at times will get down on himself, and he's not a consistent defender. Thornton is a very limited offensive player and can't really create shots for himself or others (hence his move away from PG this year).

I think Sulaimon deserves some credit as a playmaker as well... He has great one on one ability as well as very good passing instincts

BD80
04-12-2013, 07:37 PM
So who is left for Cook as "best" PG competition nationwide?...

Russ Smith is great as a "Daniel Ewing" who can go rim to rim ... more of a scorer but still. I thought he was gone but now there seems to be some confusion? If he stays he is a killer... .

Pitino says Smith is gone:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22050536/rick-pitino-says-russ-smith-and-dieng-are-gone-behanan-will-return

CDu
04-12-2013, 07:43 PM
I think Sulaimon deserves some credit as a playmaker as well... He has great one on one ability as well as very good passing instincts

I should have said "best" and not "only."

sporthenry
04-12-2013, 10:17 PM
So who is left for Cook as "best" PG competition nationwide?
Kabongo declared he is leaving..

Here is who I know:
Larkin for sure is great - a killer though without a team
Cook
Paige improving
Aaron Craft is a defensive dynamo and smart leader (honestly a more athletic and better defensive Scheyer).. though I dont know about his 3pt shooting?
Burke has not declared, right? If he stays he is better
Russ Smith is great as a "Daniel Ewing" who can go rim to rim ... more of a scorer but still. I thought he was gone but now there seems to be some confusion? If he stays he is a killer

*Who am I forgetting as great PGs next year? please help me with this list.



Jahii Carson will probably be the best PG in the country. Averaged 18.5/5.1 as a freshman.
TJ McConnell transfer from Duquesne to U of A. Averaged 11.4/5.5 as a Sophomore at Duquesne.
Dominic Artis was at 8.5/3.2 as a freshman at Oregon who dealt with some injuries.
Chasson Randle averaged 13.6/2.6 at Stanford last year.
Uconn had both Boatright averaged 15.4/4.4 and Napier 17.1/4.6
Joe Jackson was at 13.6/4.8
Markel Starks was at 12.8/3
Yogi Ferrell was at 7.6/4.1
Arcidiacono was at 11.9/3.5
Pangos was at 11.9/3.3
Kendall Williams was at 13.3/4.9
Chaz Williams averaged 15.5/7.3
Justin Cobbs 15.1/4.8

You have several freshmen on here who you'd expect to make the jump. You also have several guys who will go from more of a facilitator or secondary player to more of a star role with guys like Pangos or Ferrell. You mentioned Larkin and Paige already. You also have the incoming freshmen like Harrison and Hill and if any other guys step up.

And the problem with Cook is that his role might actually be diminished a bit at least from a scoring perspective. He can probably up his assists but Duke will probably have even more mouths to feed and I'm not sure how often he'll get the chance to create with the clock winding down. I could easily see that falling on Sheed, Jabari or even Hood.

I think Carson is clearly the best PG in the country unless I'm forgetting someone else. And then I'd have guys like Joe Jackson and McCallum (if he stays) and Chaz Williams along with Larkin and probably a few freshmen. And then I'd probably have Cook in there with the rest. I don't think all of those guys mentioned are better than Cook but they probably deserve to be in the discussion and I'm probably omitting some guys like a BJ Young. Lot of good PG play out West and I think we may be overrating Cook a bit.

Newton_14
04-12-2013, 10:26 PM
It's amazing to me how many Duke fans continue to view the world through negative goggles ...

Was Cook really so terrible at the end of the year or did he just hit a shooting slump at a bad time?

You want him to be a playmaker and a leader? Well, in the four NCAA Tournament games he passed out 24 assists and had just seven turnovers -- that includes 5 assists and one turnover against Louisville. Frankly, I'll take that.

Yeah, his shooting disappeared -- he ended the year on an 0-for-11 streak from 3 ... kind of like Kelly (and Sulaimon wasn't much better). That defines him as a player?

How about his four-game stretch to end the regular season? Cook hit 24 of 48 shots at Virginia, against Miami, VPI and at UNC, including 13-of-26 3-pointers. Over the last half of the season, he was practically perfect from the foul line (a pretty nice skill for a point guard).

Tell me, was that an example of a player playing well "early" (the last four games of the regular season), but finding his natural level in the NCAA Tournament?

He had a bad game against Maryland in the ACC Tournament (again, he was not the only one). He had some ups and downs over the course o the season. But he was a first-year tarter, dealing with a team that totally changed its character at midseason. He as one of the nation's premier point guards ... maybe not top 10, but close to it. Attrition and graduation is going to move him up the list faster than the one or two freshmen who will explode move him down. Cook will be better next year -- both in absolute terms and relative to the nation's other top point guards.

Compare his performance as a sophomore to the other great point guards in Duke history:

-- His sophomore numbers are amazingly similar to Bobby Hurley in 1991 -- both in scoring and shooting percentage. Hurley did pass out a lot more assists, but Cook actually had a better assist-to-turnover ratio.
-- Tommy Amaker was less effective offensively. He had a handful more assists and a slightly better assist/TO ratio,
-- Chris Duhon scored less and shot poorer than Cook as a soph on 2002. He had slightly more assists and almost exactly the same number of turnovers
-- Steve Wojciechowski was a marginal player as a soph -- averaging 3.4 points and less than 3 assists a game ... indeed, in 1996, Wojo was essentially Tyler Thornton in 2013.
Jason Williams was the one sophomore point guard who was significantly better than Cook.

I would argue that Amaker and Hurley were better defenders as sophs. But I would also point out that they were starting for the second year as sophs. If you go back and compare first-year starting performances (Hurley in '90; Amaker in '84) Cook's performance looks a lot better -- especially when it comes to playmaker numbers.

As I said, I don't understand the negativity. Cook suffered from a postseason shooting clump. Period. But his season-long performance at the point stacks up with the bet sophomore point guards in Duke history (except for Jason Williams).

PS As for the comparison with Craft ... Cook is a better offensive player and a better playmaker. I agree that Craft is a better defender -- that doesn't make him a better POINT GUARD than Cook. And as for his great defense ... I understand it's one game, but he did hold Cook to 3-10 shooting in their matchup ... but should we credit Cook with holding Craft to 3-15 shooting on the other end? Cook had eight assists and three turnovers against Craft's defense ... Craft had one assist and three turnovers against Cook's defense.

This is a great post on so many levels and personally I will take your opinions (as well as those of the superb analyst Jim Sumner) over anyone elses. And I am one who was not sold on Quinn as a Top Level PG after the CTC and 2 exhibition games this past season as personally I felt he was bad in all 3 outings. However he turned it around and solidified in the UK game and the ensuing Battle For Atlantis tourney that he was in fact a top level PG. As you say he had an outstanding season considering the mitigating factors he face across the long season. His "norm" this year was 2nd Team All-ACC so I am baffled at those who predict after another offseason of growth he won't even make Honorable Mention All ACC as a Jr. That is a very strange view point.

Does he have room for improvement? Absolutely. As I said earlier, the main thing Quinn needs is more strength, better control of his on court emotions with an ability to move on to Next Play quickly, improvement at attacking off pick and roll, and a committment to defending on balll the way he did this season when he was at his best, including drawing 5 second counts and keeping the opponent from getting into their offense. There is no valid reason at all that he cannot achieve every single one of those goals. Plus next year's supporting cast around him fits his skill set perfectly. Like Oly I do not get all of the negative nellies with Quinn at all.

I was reminded by some that the thread title says "best in the country". That is irrelevant to me in terms of the discussion we are having. The relevant question is can he be a the PG this Duke team needs to win championships, which the answer in my mind is yes, and can he be one of the top 5-10 best PG's in the Country, which again the answer is yes, he can, and likely will. Players with Quinn's talent and skill set get better over the course of their career, not worse.

sporthenry
04-12-2013, 10:41 PM
I was reminded by some that the thread title says "best in the country". That is irrelevant to me in terms of the discussion we are having. The relevant question is can he be a the PG this Duke team needs to win championships, which the answer in my mind is yes, and can he be one of the top 5-10 best PG's in the Country, which again the answer is yes, he can, and likely will. Players with Quinn's talent and skill set get better over the course of their career, not worse.

I think this is what matters. Duke doesn't need him to be the best PG. They need him to be one of the most efficient PGs and they probably need him in a tougher role of having to hit the clutch shots without taking many shots. Very rarely does the best PG in the country win it all. I would agree that he is probably closer to a top 5-10 PG but should have no issue making an All ACC team although it might be too crowded with Duke guys that he might be relegated to HM.

Like I said, I think he is the bigger question mark and the X-factor. Luckily, we need him to grow as a PG without putting any more pressure on him to score so I think he'll be up for the task.

Edouble
04-13-2013, 12:40 AM
I think this is what matters. Duke doesn't need him to be the best PG. They need him to be one of the most efficient PGs and they probably need him in a tougher role of having to hit the clutch shots without taking many shots. Very rarely does the best PG in the country win it all. I would agree that he is probably closer to a top 5-10 PG but should have no issue making an All ACC team although it might be too crowded with Duke guys that he might be relegated to HM.

Like I said, I think he is the bigger question mark and the X-factor. Luckily, we need him to grow as a PG without putting any more pressure on him to score so I think he'll be up for the task.

I think it may be more difficult than people think, for Cook to step into the point guard role vacated by Seth Curry.

davekay1971
04-13-2013, 09:34 AM
The relevant question is can he be a the PG this Duke team needs to win championships, which the answer in my mind is yes,

And there's the rub.

So what does Quinn need to do to be the PG Duke needs to compete for a championship?

(1) Consistency - Quinn had, overall, a very good season in 2012-2013. But we saw 2 Quinn's: the Quinn who was dishing out 6-10 assists per game; and the Quinn who dished out 2-3 assists but scored 15 points. Some of that may have been the coaches asking different things from him in different situations...but there were definitely times that scoring seemed to hamper his dishing, and other times where his scoring just wasn't there. If Quinn can put together both aspects, and give us those 6 assist games while being a legitimate scoring threat...and do it consistently...that will make Duke very, very hard to defend

(2) Defense - he really improved his D last season. Quinn has the physical skills to take another step and become a very, very good on-the-ball defender.

(3) Rebound - Barring Duke finding a top quality glass cleaner as a grad transfer, or Marshall making a big leap in the offseason, Duke will be rebounding by committee next season. So improving his rebounding should be a priority for Quinn...and every perimeter player on Duke's roster.

(4) Next Play - as noted, Quinn seems to let a bad play, or couple of plays, get him down. I remember another Duke point guard who tended to get down by a bad play and let his negative emotions show on the court too much when he was a young player. That guy turned out to be pretty good for us. Hopefully Quinn will have that Hurleyesque maturation.

MCFinARL
04-13-2013, 10:29 AM
I think it may be more difficult than people think, for Cook to step into the point guard role vacated by Seth Curry.

Say what????

sporthenry
04-13-2013, 12:29 PM
Well, what are people's realistic expectations for Cook's numbers? Last year he averaged 11.7/5.3. But he did so on 10 shots per game. He finished 6 shots shy of Mason for the season. Granted some of Mason's possessions ended up on the FT line. But with Kelly going down for half the year and Sheed still being a freshmen, Cook had a ton of shots. Similarly, he averaged 33.6 minutes per game.

I'm not really sure how either of those numbers goes up. Last year we had 4 guards for 3 spots and they were practically interchangeable. Now you will only have 3-4 guards for 2 spots with the addition of a true WF. I expect we'll go the the 3 guard line up at times but probably not that often (perhaps 10-20 minutes). So that gives you 100 minutes for Cook, TT, Sheed, and Dre. So I could actually see Cook's minutes drop.

Additionally shooting wise, we are subtracting 1/2 Kelly, Mason, and Curry. But I'm expecting Sheed to jump up in usage and then you are adding Hood and Parker. The center will obviously not have a ton of shots. And who knows how the rest of the rotation works itself out but I could see his attempts falling just from the offensive firepower we're adding let alone a decrease in minutes.

Now Cook can become a more efficient shooter and a scorer. Scoring 11.7 on 10 shots isn't very efficient so if he can be a bit more selective in his shots and get to the FT line a bit more, I could see him improve upon that.

And I know people expect us to play at a quicker pace, but we were already 6th in scoring last game (although only 96th in ADJT) so I'm not sure they are going to score that much more. I could see him getting a line like 12-13/6-6.5

Kedsy
04-13-2013, 01:59 PM
Say what????

It was a joke (pretty funny one, too) taking a dig at Digger who going into the NCAAT kept saying Seth was our PG.

MCFinARL
04-13-2013, 02:49 PM
It was a joke (pretty funny one, too) taking a dig at Digger who going into the NCAAT kept saying Seth was our PG.

Thanks, my bad. I tend to block out everything Digger says, so I didn't get it.

DukieInBrasil
04-14-2013, 02:54 PM
Now Cook can become a more efficient shooter and a scorer. Scoring 11.7 on 10 shots isn't very efficient so if he can be a bit more selective in his shots and get to the FT line a bit more, I could see him improve upon that.


11.7 pts on 10 shots is = 117 pts on 100 possessions, which is actually quite efficient. Especially when you factor in an a/t of over 2.4/1, not only was Quinn efficient but he was involved in getting efficient shots for his teammates. Quinn only shot 42% FG, but shot nearly 40% 3FG and shot almost 88% FT. Shooting 40% from 3 is an eFG% of 60%, add in his excellent FT% and i'd say that Quinn is quite an efficient scorer. It would be great if Quinn became even more efficient on offense by upping his FG and 3FG%, and also increasing his a/t, but to say he wasn't very efficient discredits what he did last season.

sporthenry
04-14-2013, 03:56 PM
11.7 pts on 10 shots is = 117 pts on 100 possessions, which is actually quite efficient. Especially when you factor in an a/t of over 2.4/1, not only was Quinn efficient but he was involved in getting efficient shots for his teammates. Quinn only shot 42% FG, but shot nearly 40% 3FG and shot almost 88% FT. Shooting 40% from 3 is an eFG% of 60%, add in his excellent FT% and i'd say that Quinn is quite an efficient scorer. It would be great if Quinn became even more efficient on offense by upping his FG and 3FG%, and also increasing his a/t, but to say he wasn't very efficient discredits what he did last season.

His EFG% was 49.2%. 2nd worst on team behind Hairston although Sheed wasn't much better at 50%. His true shooting % was 52.9%, better than only Murphy and Hairston. And with those FT% and 3P% which are very good, that means he wasn't very good at drawing fouls and wasn't great inside the arc. He only shot 43% from 2. Curry was at 49.3% from 2. Thornton was at 45.5% from 2.

So if you want to put him with the best PGs in the country, he needs to be better. Guys like Jahii Carson was 51.4% from 2. Or Russ Smith who shot 45.8% from 2 but also drew 6.7 fouls/40 minutes. Cook had a very solid season but has a lot of room for improvement.

Saratoga2
04-14-2013, 08:18 PM
Jahii Carson will probably be the best PG in the country. Averaged 18.5/5.1 as a freshman.
TJ McConnell transfer from Duquesne to U of A. Averaged 11.4/5.5 as a Sophomore at Duquesne.
Dominic Artis was at 8.5/3.2 as a freshman at Oregon who dealt with some injuries.
Chasson Randle averaged 13.6/2.6 at Stanford last year.
Uconn had both Boatright averaged 15.4/4.4 and Napier 17.1/4.6
Joe Jackson was at 13.6/4.8
Markel Starks was at 12.8/3
Yogi Ferrell was at 7.6/4.1
Arcidiacono was at 11.9/3.5
Pangos was at 11.9/3.3
Kendall Williams was at 13.3/4.9
Chaz Williams averaged 15.5/7.3
Justin Cobbs 15.1/4.8

You have several freshmen on here who you'd expect to make the jump. You also have several guys who will go from more of a facilitator or secondary player to more of a star role with guys like Pangos or Ferrell. You mentioned Larkin and Paige already. You also have the incoming freshmen like Harrison and Hill and if any other guys step up.

And the problem with Cook is that his role might actually be diminished a bit at least from a scoring perspective. He can probably up his assists but Duke will probably have even more mouths to feed and I'm not sure how often he'll get the chance to create with the clock winding down. I could easily see that falling on Sheed, Jabari or even Hood.

I think Carson is clearly the best PG in the country unless I'm forgetting someone else. And then I'd have guys like Joe Jackson and McCallum (if he stays) and Chaz Williams along with Larkin and probably a few freshmen. And then I'd probably have Cook in there with the rest. I don't think all of those guys mentioned are better than Cook but they probably deserve to be in the discussion and I'm probably omitting some guys like a BJ Young. Lot of good PG play out West and I think we may be overrating Cook a bit.

Harrison is coming in and at 6'5" and over 200# with really good skills and athleticism, I would think he will be difficult to best. He does lack experience.

What we should hope for out of Quinn is that he improves all aspects of his game for the coming year. He is a very good PG but lacks the speed, quickness and size of some others. Nevertheless, he has shown he can be effective.

Kedsy
04-15-2013, 02:00 AM
11.7 pts on 10 shots is = 117 pts on 100 possessions, which is actually quite efficient.

Actually it isn't. Points per shot (which is the stat you are actually citing) is very different from points per possession. Possessions can end with a shot, a foul, free throws, or a turnover. For individuals, a "possession" is more complicated, involving all of the previous events as well as passes. In other words, 11.7 points on 10 shots is nowhere close to 1.17 points per possession.

In 2012-13, there were 75 teams that averaged better than 1.17 points per shot. I couldn't find the individual leaderboard, but obviously if that many teams averaged more than Quinn's individual number, his number is not at all efficient.

To further bolster this point, here are the points per shot numbers for Duke's 2012-13 team:

Mason: 1.67
Seth: 1.44
Ryan: 1.40
Amile: 1.35
Rasheed: 1.29
Tyler: 1.29
Todd Z: 1.25
Alex: 1.164
Quinn: 1.160
Josh: 1.13
Marshall: 0.25

Duke as a team averaged 1.37 points per shot. And as you can see, Quinn's pps number is not only far from "quite efficient," it's one of the worst on the team, better only than Josh's and Marshall's.

gumbomoop
06-13-2013, 01:00 PM
Here are some recent top-10 rankings from Sporting News re best at each position for 2013-'14:

PG, no Quinn [though he is called "estimable" in the commentary on Rasheed, below]:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-10/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-point-guards-marcus-smart?modid=recommended_2_5

SG, Rasheed #3:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-11/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-shooting-guards-russ-smith?modid=recommended_2_5

SF, Rodney #3, just behind Hairston:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-12/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-small-forwards-andrew-wiggins?modid=recommended_1_5

Olympic Fan
06-13-2013, 03:39 PM
Here are some recent top-10 rankings from Sporting News re best at each position for 2013-'14:

PG, no Quinn [though he is called "estimable" in the commentary on Rasheed, below]:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-10/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-point-guards-marcus-smart?modid=recommended_2_5

SG, Rasheed #3:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-11/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-shooting-guards-russ-smith?modid=recommended_2_5

SF, Rodney #3, just behind Hairston:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-12/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-small-forwards-andrew-wiggins?modid=recommended_1_5

Frankly, I don't think a lot of the list -- and not just because Quinn didn't make it.

My major objection is the including of three guys who have never played for their current teams -- one of which has never played college basketball.

Obviously, a lot of freshmen come in and are very good right away. But for every Kevin Durant, there's a Harrison Barnes. Remember Barnes -- the first player to make the preseason AP All-America team without playing a game. Then he doesn't even make All-ACC.

Maybe Andrew Harrison (Kentucky), TJ McConnell (Arizona) and Chris Jones (Louisville) will be fantastic point guards ... but it's taking an awesome leap of faith to rank them ahead of a proven guy like Quinn.

In fact, I think Quinn stacks up very well with the last four guys in the Sporting News top 10.

They have Gonzaga's Kevin Pangos at No. 7. Last year Pangos averaged 11.9 points and 3.3 assists and shot 42.6 percent for a good Gonzaga team (playing most of its games in a weak conference). No. 8 Joe Jackson did average 13.6 ppg and 4.8 apg at Memphis -- in another second-rate league -- while also averaging almost 3 turnovers a game.

Quinn, who averaged 11.7 ppg and 5.3 apg (and barely 2.0 turnovers a game) stacks up very well with those guys -- especially considering the level of competition (he did it6 against the toughest schedule in college basketball). He had good games and bad -- yeah, he struggled in the Elite Eight game with Louisville, but three months earlier, he was the MVP in Atlantis against the same Louisville backcourt.

Do I think Quinn is the best PG in college basketball next year -- no, not unless he makes another quantum leap in his game. Marcus Smart, Jahlil Carson and Yogi Ferrell all have better resumes.

But Cook is better than half the guys on the Sporting News list ... I mean TJ McConnell, really? They guy averaged 11 points and five assists and 2 turnovers -- very similar to Cook -- playing for a 16-15 Duquesne team in 2011-12. He's suddenly a top 10 national PG? Give me a break.

jimsumner
06-13-2013, 03:40 PM
Here are some recent top-10 rankings from Sporting News re best at each position for 2013-'14:

PG, no Quinn [though he is called "estimable" in the commentary on Rasheed, below]:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-10/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-point-guards-marcus-smart?modid=recommended_2_5

SG, Rasheed #3:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-11/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-shooting-guards-russ-smith?modid=recommended_2_5

SF, Rodney #3, just behind Hairston:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-06-12/college-basketball-player-rankings-2013-14-top-10-small-forwards-andrew-wiggins?modid=recommended_1_5

Joe Harris number 9 shooting guard? Yikes!!

BD80
06-13-2013, 03:54 PM
...

SF, Rodney #3, just behind Hairston:

...

Hairston too high.

Go figure.

theschwartz
06-13-2013, 04:06 PM
Hairston too high.

Go figure.

I really hope that pun was intended.

Duvall
06-13-2013, 04:14 PM
Joe Harris number 9 shooting guard? Yikes!!

Yes, that was odd. #2 small forward would seem to be more appropriate for Harris.

CDu
06-13-2013, 04:50 PM
Yeah, that's a pretty crappy list all the way around. But, then again, I guess I shouldn't expect much from a bunch of sportswriters. Many of them don't know no better.

Fish80
06-14-2013, 05:17 PM
Bleacher Report has projected stat lines for the top 20 point guards next year. They have Quinn at number 10 with the following:

Projected Stat Line: 14 points, 6.0 assists and 1.6 steals per game

Not too shabby! I'd like to see 7.0 assists with <2 turnovers. :D

OldPhiKap
06-14-2013, 05:33 PM
Hairston too high.

Go figure.

Yeah, but he has that gunner mentality.

NSDukeFan
06-14-2013, 07:17 PM
Yeah, but he has that gunner mentality.

Think he'll have a license to shoot next year?

Kedsy
06-14-2013, 07:26 PM
I'd like to see 7.0 assists with <2 turnovers. :D

Well, we'd probably all like to see that, since it's never been done at Duke before. In the K era, I believe only Bobby Hurley has reached 7 apg in a season, and his turnovers were way higher than you're looking for. The numbers you've posited would represent *by far* the best a/to ratio ever at Duke.

Unless this is a joke on your part, in which case I apologize.

Fish80
06-14-2013, 07:35 PM
Well, we'd probably all like to see that, since it's never been done at Duke before. In the K era, I believe only Bobby Hurley has reached 7 apg in a season, and his turnovers were way higher than you're looking for. The numbers you've posited would represent *by far* the best a/to ratio ever at Duke.

Unless this is a joke on your part, in which case I apologize.

It's what we call a "stretch" objective. :D

uh_no
06-14-2013, 07:46 PM
Think he'll have a license to shoot next year?

not sure....but I think he'll be high enough to play above the rim

NSDukeFan
06-14-2013, 07:59 PM
not sure....but I think he'll be high enough to play above the rim

This thread is going to pot.

BD80
06-14-2013, 09:51 PM
Think he'll have a license to shoot next year?

Sounds like PJ is putting in the work this summer. Piecing together reports: "pick up in Durham," players from other schools, "after hitting a couple" "getting smoked," "hot pistol," "five-oh stop," "going downtown."

I assume PJ has been playing pick-up games in Durham with local players and has been going on shooting streaks from deep to defeat his opponents, but fell short of a 50 point effort.

ol' roy will be happy when these reports are delivered to him on the golf course

uh_no
06-15-2013, 03:12 PM
This thread is going to pot.

it's going to take a grass-roots effort to bring it back on track

DukeWarhead
06-15-2013, 07:33 PM
it's going to take a grass-roots effort to bring it back on track

the mods need to weed out the misplaced posts.

wilko
06-15-2013, 07:43 PM
the mods need to weed out the misplaced posts.

Agreed nothing but seeds and stems here...
I hope Quinn continues to improve and has a dynamite Jr campaign.
I think he was concealing an injury.

OldPhiKap
06-15-2013, 08:00 PM
I just finally got all of these puns. I feel like a dope.

Oh, and to stay on thread -- go to Hell Carolina.

MCFinARL
06-15-2013, 09:38 PM
I just finally got all of these puns. I feel like a dope.

Oh, and to stay on thread -- go to Hell Carolina.

Ahhh, the post that is relevant to every thread. Meanwhile, reading this thread I am feeling strangely hungry.....

roywhite
06-15-2013, 11:05 PM
Well, we'd probably all like to see that, since it's never been done at Duke before. In the K era, I believe only Bobby Hurley has reached 7 apg in a season, and his turnovers were way higher than you're looking for. The numbers you've posited would represent *by far* the best a/to ratio ever at Duke.

Unless this is a joke on your part, in which case I apologize.

Hurley's career stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=193)

Yeah, not sure if anyone else reached 7 apg, but Hurley didn't have a season with fewer than 7 apg.
Season averages of 7.6, 7.4, 7.6, and 8.2 apg are amazing.

Yet he did not have a season with fewer than 3 turnovers per game, and as a freshman (on an NCAA runner-up team) he had more than 4 turnovers per game.

sagegrouse
06-16-2013, 03:21 AM
Hurley's career stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=193)

Yeah, not sure if anyone else reached 7 apg, but Hurley didn't have a season with fewer than 7 apg.
Season averages of 7.6, 7.4, 7.6, and 8.2 apg are amazing.

Yet he did not have a season with fewer than 3 turnovers per game, and as a freshman (on an NCAA runner-up team) he had more than 4 turnovers per game.

Only Dick Groat in 1952 at 7.63. The top ten seasons include Hurley 4x, Duhon and JWill 2x, Groat and Quin Snyder.

sagegrouse

jimsumner
06-16-2013, 12:39 PM
Only Dick Groat in 1952 at 7.63. The top ten seasons include Hurley 4x, Duhon and JWill 2x, Groat and Quin Snyder.

sagegrouse

Assists weren't an official stat until the 1970s. But Bill Brill, then a senior, I believe, kept assist stats for Duke in 1952. Not an official stat, in a technical sense.

But Duke accepts it.

And having known Bill, I suspect he wasn't overly generous in giving out assists. Not in his nature. :)

So, Groat earned those assists. Keep in mind that Groat also averaged 25 ppg that year. Productive, much?

But I always wonder how many assists someone like DeVenzio would have had under today's somewhat generous interpretation. Or Vacendak in 1966.

Same with blocked shots. Hack Tison would be at or near the top of the single-season Duke record. But that's just my memory. No data base to back it up.

But back to the original point. Seven APG for Cook is very, very ambitious.

AZLA
06-16-2013, 12:57 PM
Defense. Defense. Defense. Must improve his ability to stop the drive.

Olympic Fan
06-16-2013, 01:30 PM
Hurley's career stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=193)

Yeah, not sure if anyone else reached 7 apg, but Hurley didn't have a season with fewer than 7 apg.
Season averages of 7.6, 7.4, 7.6, and 8.2 apg are amazing.

Yet he did not have a season with fewer than 3 turnovers per game, and as a freshman (on an NCAA runner-up team) he had more than 4 turnovers per game.

As long as we are balancing assists with turnovers, I should point out that the career record for assist-to-turnover ratio belongs to Wojo, who had 505 assists and 202 turnovers i9n his career -- almost exactly a 2.50-to-one ratio. Wojo also has the best single-season mark -- in 1997 he had 176 assists and 58 turnovers -- 3.03 to 1. Jon Scheyer was very close in 2010 -- 194 and 65 -- 2.98-to-one.

It's interesting that both players had fairly modest assist averages in those seasons -- Wojo was 5.3 in '97; Scheyer was 4.9 in 2010.

Quinn's numbers are interesting. As a freshman, he averaged just 1.9 assists a game in limited time -- but with 63 assists and just 18 turnovers, he had a 3.50-to-one ratio that is better than Wojo's school record (it's not a record because he didn't have enough assists to quality). His numbers last season -- 190 assists and 79 turnovers in 36 games -- average out to 5.3 assists and a 2.41-to-one assist to turnover ratio -- that's the 14th best average and the 10th best ratio in Duke history. His current career mark of 253 assists and 97 turnovers (2.61-to-one) is on pace to be the BEST ratio in school history -- better than Wojo's career numbers.

I guess my point is that a year after averaging 5.3 assists and a 2.41-to-one ratio, I think 7 assists and 2 turnovers a game (a 3.5-to-one ratio) are not unreasonable goals. High goals -- yes ... but unreasonable. The Quinn Cook who played last season doesn't get enough credit on these boards. He had a terrific year in his first healthy year after two years of hobbling with an injury. I'm actually excited to see what kind of season he has this year.

Kedsy
06-16-2013, 04:08 PM
I guess my point is that a year after averaging 5.3 assists and a 2.41-to-one ratio, I think 7 assists and 2 turnovers a game (a 3.5-to-one ratio) are not unreasonable goals.

Well, I'll say this: if Quinn gets 7 apg and 2 tpg (i.e., a 3.5 a/to ratio), then he'd have a pretty good case for being called the best PG in college basketball next season.

This past season, only three players had > 5 apg and a better than 3.0 a/to ratio:

Larry Drew II: 7.3 apg; 3.0 a/to
Trey Burke: 6.7 apg; 3.0 a/to
Jacques Streeter (UTEP): 5.3 apg; 3.1 a/to

And if you want to talk about players who don't get enough credit on these boards, how about LD II's numbers last season?