As the Wiggins Wiggles to KU

[JasonEvans]

Seeing as so much conversation about Andrew Wiggins' college choice has gone on in Kentucky and UNC threads (and could affect FSU tremendously as well), I figured it made sense to just give the kid his own thread. It is an unusual choice for a high schooler not interested in Duke but I did it anyway.

I begin the thread with this article featuring news from Wiggins' brother (http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/227082/Andrew-Wiggins-Brother-Believes-Kentucky-May-Not-Be-Best-Fit). He says he doesn't think Kentucky would be the best fit and that his parents want Andrew to pick FSU. Of course, his comments could all be misdirection and it is unclear how much input or knowledge he has into Andrew's decision.

-Jason "has anyone seen a timetable for the Wiggins announcement?" Evans

[Neals384]

Wiggins brother sounds like he's pretty smart. If he added a second school to his 'no fit' list, he'd be a genius!

[Ichabod Drain]

Seeing as so much conversation about Andrew Wiggins' college choice has gone on in Kentucky and UNC threads (and could affect FSU tremendously as well), I figured it made sense to just give the kid his own thread. It is an unusual choice for a high schooler not interested in Duke but I did it anyway.

I begin the thread with this article featuring news from Wiggins' brother (http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/227082/Andrew-Wiggins-Brother-Believes-Kentucky-May-Not-Be-Best-Fit). He says he doesn't think Kentucky would be the best fit and that his parents want Andrew to pick FSU. Of course, his comments could all be misdirection and it is unclear how much input or knowledge he has into Andrew's decision.

-Jason "has anyone seen a timetable for the Wiggins announcement?" Evans

The NBA Draft early entry deadline is April 28, so I would assume not too long after that and probably not before. I believe I read somewhere that either his brother or coach said early to mid may.

[Cameron]

Seeing as so much conversation about Andrew Wiggins' college choice has gone on in Kentucky and UNC threads (and could affect FSU tremendously as well), I figured it made sense to just give the kid his own thread. It is an unusual choice for a high schooler not interested in Duke but I did it anyway.

I begin the thread with this article featuring news from Wiggins' brother (http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/227082/Andrew-Wiggins-Brother-Believes-Kentucky-May-Not-Be-Best-Fit). He says he doesn't think Kentucky would be the best fit and that his parents want Andrew to pick FSU. Of course, his comments could all be misdirection and it is unclear how much input or knowledge he has into Andrew's decision.
-Jason "has anyone seen a timetable for the Wiggins announcement?" Evans

I don't doubt that you are spot on, but why would the Wiggins camp feel the need to spread misdirection? They are acting like this is a national secret. I got news for Wiggins, outside of UK and North Carolina and the 3 people at FSU who care, everybody else has moved on and no longer cares. He might as well walk into his press conference dressed as a stuffed wildcat, because the drama and intrigue are over.

I know this is a horse that has been beaten to a pulp, but seriously, what good is dragging this whole process out doing for Wiggins if he already knows, which there is no way he doesn't. I don't buy it. What's the purpose of all of this?

[mgtr]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a peacock (I mean HS basketball player) with the initials HB who made a real production of strutting his stuff for his announcement? It has to do with egos being massively stroked.

[Cameron]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a peacock (I mean HS basketball player) with the initials HB who made a real production of strutting his stuff for his announcement? It has to do with egos being massively stroked.

The difference between Harrison Barnes and Andrew Wiggins, at least from where I sit, is that Harry actually believed he was Princess Diana's son while Wiggins does not. Wiggins and his high school coach have actually stated several times that the kid does not enjoy the attention and pressure cooker that he is in. His coach even went as far as saying that Wiggins hasn't had the year that he would have hoped on the court due to being under constant observation (which makes me wonder if his brother is in fact right when he says that UK might not be the right fit. The spotlight at Kentucky is unlike anyplace else he would play).

So, with that in mind, perhaps he really hasn't made his mind up yet. I find that hard to believe, but I guess could be true.

[Ichabod Drain]

I know this is a horse that has been beaten to a pulp, but seriously, what good is dragging this whole process out doing for Wiggins if he already knows, which there is no way he doesn't. I don't buy it. What's the purpose of all of this?

I believe he probably does know to some degree, but is just waiting on NBA early entry decisions to make sure. I don't believe he is dragging this out, he's just waiting to make his decision. It's really just the media and fans that make it seem dragged out. Wiggins hasn't been set a date and pushed it back or dropped hints or said anything really at all.

[Cameron]

I believe he probably does know to some degree, but is just waiting on NBA early entry decisions to make sure. I don't believe he is dragging this out, he's just waiting to make his decision. It's really just the media and fans that make it seem dragged out. Wiggins hasn't been set a date and pushed it back or dropped hints or said anything really at all.

This is an excellent point.

[johnb]

I believe he probably does know to some degree, but is just waiting on NBA early entry decisions to make sure. I don't believe he is dragging this out, he's just waiting to make his decision. It's really just the media and fans that make it seem dragged out. Wiggins hasn't been set a date and pushed it back or dropped hints or said anything really at all.

The phrase that I've heard is that while Wiggins the best talent in the class, Jabari is currently the best player. I'm guessing that Wiggins--who seems like a reasonable guy with a reasonable family--understands that he needs a good fit in terms of coach and potential for 20-30 minutes/game. Since all schools would reserve a spot for him, he might as well ensure that there won't be a complete logjam at his position and that his prospective coach isn't going elsewhere (though that seems unlikely at the schools he's considering).

[JasonEvans]

I believe he probably does know to some degree, but is just waiting on NBA early entry decisions to make sure.

If the above is the case, I think it tells us a good bit about Wiggins' preferred college destination. Think about this question-- what early entry decision would have an impact on his decision?

No one on FSU is considering early entry. If Wiggins wanted to go to FSU, he could safely declare his intentions any time and the NBA deadline would be meaningless. Kentucky's players have largely made up their minds and the bulk of the Kentucky talent next year will be in the freshman class who can't go pro anyway. Again, the NBA deadline has no impact on Wiggins if he is a Kentucky lean. So, that really only leaves UNC. It is not like the return of JMM would impact Wiggins' playing time, but perhaps he wants to see if the Carolina guys are coming back, allowing him to be the "missing piece" in turning Carolina into a top 5 team next season. If JMM and Bullock both bolt then, even with Wiggins, Carolina is likely to be a Top 20ish kind of team at the best (in all likelihood). But, their return coupled with the arrival of Wiggins would seemingly vault Carolina into the National Title conversation.

So, if we think he is waiting on NBA decisions, does that imply he is a Carolina lean at this point? I dunno, but it seems to sorta make sense, doesn't it?

-Jason "I am still hoping for FSU as I think it would be fun to see what he could do as the total focal point of a team" Evans

[UrinalCake]

My ideal scenario:
- reports leak that UNC's big three are all staying
- Wiggins commits to FSU for the guaranteed playing time
- reports are wrong, the big three all leave

I agree with Jason Evans here, if he's waiting on early entry decisions then that only affects UNC. I don't think Noel from UK has declared but that shouldn't affect him too much. Want I don't know is what he WANTS to happen regarding the UNC guys. Does he want them to all come back so he can play on a team that's one of the favorites? Or does he want them to all leave so he can be the man and the savior of the program?

[Cameron]

If Wiggins wants to be the total focal point of a team, while at the same time play for a proven winner with the chance at doing great things in the postseason next year, then I think you have to throw Wichita State's name into the hat as a possible destination of choice. The Shockers are coming off a Final Four appearance and return almost everyone next season. Yet, they are a team whose success is very much built on sum of its parts and not the singular abilities of a star, such as Creighton is with Doug McDermott. If Wiggins chose to go play at Wichita State, he'd clearly be the go-to guy, but also have a solid cast of support players surrounding him. The ideal situation, in my view, if he does in fact want to play someplace where there are not "competing forces" at his position.

Such a decision would also allow Wiggins to play alongside his brother on a team with a realistic shot at a national championship. That sounds like a great opportunity to me. The major negative, of course, would be that, for a talent of Wiggins' magnitude, playing at Wichita State, while a solid program, would be akin to joining the Witness Protection Program. It's the small time, compared to, say, UK or Carolina.

[TruBlu]

The phrase that I've heard is that while Wiggins the best talent in the class, Jabari is currently the best player.

Reminiscent of the Kyle Singler recruitment. He was not the most highly rated player in his high school class, but numerous coaches stated that Kyle was the team player they would most want on their squad.

[loran16]

I don't doubt that you are spot on, but why would the Wiggins camp feel the need to spread misdirection? They are acting like this is a national secret. I got news for Wiggins, outside of UK and North Carolina and the 3 people at FSU who care, everybody else has moved on and no longer cares. He might as well walk into his press conference dressed as a stuffed wildcat, because the drama and intrigue are over.

I know this is a horse that has been beaten to a pulp, but seriously, what good is dragging this whole process out doing for Wiggins if he already knows, which there is no way he doesn't. I don't buy it. What's the purpose of all of this?

If you've watched prospect recruitment over the last few years from Barnes to Tony Parker to hell even our own incoming Jabari Parker, it's apparently very important to these kids to milk as much attention as they can from their recruitment. It's their moment in the sun and the kids don't want to waste it.

It's a lousy aspect of modern recruiting, but it's the new normal.

[-bdbd]

My ideal scenario:
- reports leak that UNC's big three are all staying
- Wiggins commits to FSU for the guaranteed playing time
- reports are wrong, the big three all leave

I agree with Jason Evans here, if he's waiting on early entry decisions then that only affects UNC. I don't think Noel from UK has declared but that shouldn't affect him too much. Want I don't know is what he WANTS to happen regarding the UNC guys. Does he want them to all come back so he can play on a team that's one of the favorites? Or does he want them to all leave so he can be the man and the savior of the program?

I strongly agree on both points here. That WOULD be a "dream scenario!"

But, sigh, I have been thinking the same thing as Jason. If he's waiting to see who goes pro, then UNC would seem to be a school very much in play. But I'll add a hopeful caveat: He COULD have decided that he will go to an FSU unless a lot of playing time opens up at school X. Perhaps the theme is that some of the guys staying at KY are thought to be wavering somewhat in that area (re. going pro)? And if a couple KY players left, then he could see himself going there instead of FSU... Same thought process might apply to UNC too.

BTW, I disagree with any commentary trying to equate Wiggins to Harry B. HB was a grandstander, pure and simple. There's no indication that Wiggins is drawing this out to focus more attention on himself. Let's pray for no skyping at his announcement! But I have long wondered why kids feel pressured toi announce early... I mean, what if a coach leaves? What if the school gains unexpected other recruits? What if NBA-caliber guys STAY instead of going pro? Those are all things which could impact a kid making the right decision for himself.

But I can say that, from personal experience, though I'm now 4-star athlete, I didn't make my final decision to attend Duke until late-April as well. There's no reason the kid NEEDS to make a premature decision, and so us recruitiks just have to suffer and wait.... :eek:

[Olympic Fan]

The phrase that I've heard is that while Wiggins the best talent in the class, Jabari is currently the best player. I'm guessing that Wiggins--who seems like a reasonable guy with a reasonable family--understands that he needs a good fit in terms of coach and potential for 20-30 minutes/game. Since all schools would reserve a spot for him, he might as well ensure that there won't be a complete logjam at his position and that his prospective coach isn't going elsewhere (though that seems unlikely at the schools he's considering).

That evaluation is a Dave Telep quote

[Greg_Newton]

If you've watched prospect recruitment over the last few years from Barnes to Tony Parker to hell even our own incoming Jabari Parker, it's apparently very important to these kids to milk as much attention as they can from their recruitment. It's their moment in the sun and the kids don't want to waste it.

It's a lousy aspect of modern recruiting, but it's the new normal.

Yeah, even Kyrie "lied" about not having his mind made up for the sake of his announcement. Certainly not unusual at all.

[SupaDave]

Yeah, even Kyrie "lied" about not having his mind made up for the sake of his announcement. Certainly not unusual at all.

You get 5 official visits. That's all I'm saying. :cool:

[weezie]

When I glance down the thread list I keep thinking of Chief Wiggins.....:cool:

[BigWayne]

You get 5 official visits. That's all I'm saying. :cool:
And he has apparently taken 4 so far. So does he want a trip to visit his brother in Kansas, or maybe to see what's going on in South Beach?

[Newton_14]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a peacock (I mean HS basketball player) with the initials HB who made a real production of strutting his stuff for his announcement? It has to do with egos being massively stroked.

You are right on HB but totally off on Wiggins. He is not like that at all from the articles I have read on him. He actually hates the attention. The issue according to Dave Telep is dissension within the family. Mom and Dad are pushing hard for FSU but he apparently wants to go elsewhere. No one know where that elsewhere is though. I just hope it is not UK or UNC.

Go to FSU or Kansas young man!

[Greg_Newton]

You get 5 official visits. That's all I'm saying. :cool:

My list would be Miami, Arizona State, Georgia, Hawaii and Duke.

"I swear, Mr. Telep, I have NO idea which one I'll end up picking!"

[flyingdutchdevil]

My ideal scenario:
- reports leak that UNC's big three are all staying
- Wiggins commits to FSU for the guaranteed playing time
- reports are wrong, the big three all leave

I agree with Jason Evans here, if he's waiting on early entry decisions then that only affects UNC. I don't think Noel from UK has declared but that shouldn't affect him too much. Want I don't know is what he WANTS to happen regarding the UNC guys. Does he want them to all come back so he can play on a team that's one of the favorites? Or does he want them to all leave so he can be the man and the savior of the program?

Have to disagree slightly. I think the dream scenario would be as follows:

- reports leak that UNC's big three are all staying
- rumors out there are strong that Wiggins has chosen UNC. UNC faithful write 2.5 million words about how UNC will crush Duke next year.
- big three are worried about attention and playing time, so they all three leave
- Wiggins reports are wrong. He commits to FSU. UNC faithful cry, burn down their alma mater in protest
- The metaphorical bus (in this case, a double decker) is Roy's favorite hobby next year

[BD80]

... The metaphorical bus (in this case, a double decker) is Roy's favorite hobby next year

Driving the bumpy bus is most indulged hobby next year,
which leads to early season pursuit of his favorite hobby: golf,
which leads to a late summer decision to pursue that favorite hobby full time,
which leads to a desperate scramble for a new head coach,
which winds up a clustertruck and the re-hiring of Matt Doherty,
which sends even the most loyal tar heel over the edge -
resulting in a bonfire of all things that ugly color and
a petition signed by every remaining member of the rams club to hire any assistant from the Duke staff that can be coerced to "cross-over" at $10m/yr

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Driving the bumpy bus is most indulged hobby next year,
which leads to early season pursuit of hisfavorite hobby: golf,
which leads to a late summer decision to pursue that favorite hobby full time,
which leads to a desperate scramble for a new head coach,
which winds up a clustertruck and the re-hiring of Matt Doherty,
which sends even the most loyal tar heel over the edge -
resulting in a bonfire of all things that ugly color and
a petition signed by every remaining member of the rams club to hire any assistant from the Duke staff that can be coerced to "cross-over" at $10m/yr

I think you're forgetting the huge, impenetrable wall the genie build around chapel hill (as the carolina alum's wish) and then filled with water (as the Duke alum's wish)... :D http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif

[loran16]

You are right on HB but totally off on Wiggins. He is not like that at all from the articles I have read on him. He actually hates the attention. The issue according to Dave Telep is dissension within the family. Mom and Dad are pushing hard for FSU but he apparently wants to go elsewhere. No one know where that elsewhere is though. I just hope it is not UK or UNC.

Go to FSU or Kansas young man!

I don't even care if he does want the attention: We're talking 18 year old (or less) kids here -- they're allowed to be a little immature and attention grab.

It always makes me laugh how Barnes is held up as a spectacle despite the fact that if he chose Duke with that skype call Duke fans would've never thought he did anything wrong.

[roywhite]

I don't even care if he does want the attention: We're talking 18 year old (or less) kids here -- they're allowed to be a little immature and attention grab.

It always makes me laugh how Barnes is held up as a spectacle despite the fact that if he chose Duke with that skype call Duke fans would've never thought he did anything wrong.

Uh, sorry, I didn't care for Barnes announcement and his theatrics. Or for Tony Parker's endless press conference announcement for that matter, either.

Perhaps there is a correlation that a young player who chooses to promote himself in that way would not be a good fit with Coach K and Duke?
Don't know, but I didn't care for it, and don't want an assumption made that it was okay except for the choice of a school other than Duke.

[Des Esseintes]

Uh, sorry, I didn't care for Barnes announcement and his theatrics. Or for Tony Parker's endless press conference announcement for that matter, either.

Perhaps there is a correlation that a young player who chooses to promote himself in that way would not be a good fit with Coach K and Duke?
Don't know, but I didn't care for it, and don't want an assumption made that it was okay except for the choice of a school other than Duke.

Had Barnes gone too Duke, he obviously would have gotten more benefit of the doubt from our fanbase. But the way Austin Rivers gets talked about makes me think that there would have been plenty who took exception to the way Barnes carries himself. In fact, I think if history had been different and Austin went UNC and Barnes went Duke, you could just switch the names and keep having the exact same conversation. Same hatred of the arrogant dude from the other school, same questioning of the arrogant dude from our school. (This is coming from somebody who likes Rivers quite a bit. It's a fact that a fair percentage of the fanbase doesn't.)

[sagegrouse]

I don't even care if he does want the attention: We're talking 18 year old (or less) kids here -- they're allowed to be a little immature and attention grab.

It always makes me laugh how Barnes is held up as a spectacle despite the fact that if he chose Duke with that skype call Duke fans would've never thought he did anything wrong.

Well, some might have said, "He understands the value of public relations; now he has to learn how to do it effectively and with humility." I believe he would have gotten some personal counseling on the subject. I don't think he got it at UNC; or else, he is incorrigible.

He would have been a challenge at Duke, what with calling reporters midseason freshman year asking, "Am I still on track to be first team All-American?" And then issuing a puerile press statement, that came out of the office of the UNC SID at the end of his freshman year, heralding his return to the Tar Heels but talking first about his NBA future.

sagegrouse

[Dev11]

Uh, sorry, I didn't care for Barnes announcement and his theatrics. Or for Tony Parker's endless press conference announcement for that matter, either.

Perhaps there is a correlation that a young player who chooses to promote himself in that way would not be a good fit with Coach K and Duke?
Don't know, but I didn't care for it, and don't want an assumption made that it was okay except for the choice of a school other than Duke.

I disagree. The showiest announcements that have ended in our favor have all been of the plain variety. Kyrie and Austin, I believe, both did announcement specials on ESPNU that didn't last particularly long, and Amile did a little press conference in his high school's gym, similar to Tony Parker's but about 6 hours shorter.

One of these years, Duke is going to grab a high-profile guy who chooses to do a more unique announcement, and we will say it's just a sign of the times and we shouldn't worry about it. Once upon a time we looked down on programs that recruited one-and-done players knowing that they wouldn't stay in school, and then lo and behold, we recruit John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, and Jabari Parker, making this now a regular thing. I would say the majority of folks here are ok with this practice, and when we finally get a kid who has a big announcements, we'll be fine with that, too.

Times change, K adapts, we win 30 games a year. Fine by me

[moonpie23]

It always makes me laugh how Barnes is held up as a spectacle despite the fact that if he chose Duke with that skype call Duke fans would've never thought he did anything wrong.

incorrect.......it was so ugly that i would have ALWAYS had a problem with it....

[subzero02]

Well, some might have said, "He understands the value of public relations; now he has to learn how to do it effectively and with humility." I believe he would have gotten some personal counseling on the subject. I don't think he got it at UNC; or else, he is incorrigible.

He would have been a challenge at Duke, what with calling reporters midseason freshman year asking, "Am I still on track to be first team All-American?" And then issuing a puerile press statement, that came out of the office of the UNC SID at the end of his freshman year, heralding his return to the Tar Heels but talking first about his NBA future.

sagegrouse

He didn't call reporters and ask that? Unbelievable...

[sagegrouse]

He didn't call reporters and ask that? Unbelievable...

It occurred midseason of his freshman year, after having been selected first-team A-A*** before playing a single minute of college ball. It was a senior national basketball reporter, but I don't think it was either Hoops Weiss or Bob Ryan. Maybe someone at AP.


***Yep, that actually happened and led to the "Harrison Barnes Rule:" Don't put a freshman on an A-A team. E.g., from Shane Ryan at Grantland:


Note: I will be using the Harrison Barnes Rule — no freshmen on the All-American teams. Surely one or more of them will be worthy by the end of the year, but I shall not be Barnes'ed!
sagegrouse

[Duvall]

It occurred midseason of his freshman year, after having been selected first-team A-A*** before playing a single minute of college ball. It was a senior national basketball reporter, but I don't think it was either Hoops Weiss or Bob Ryan. Maybe someone at AP.

Jeff Goodman.


***Yep, that actually happened and led to the "Harrison Barnes Rule:" Don't put a freshman on an A-A team. E.g., from Shane Ryan at Grantland:

Probably shouldn't be surprised that a Shane Ryan basketball rule of thumb would fail after only one year. He's remarkably good at being wrong about things.

[sagegrouse]

Jeff Goodman.



Probably shouldn't be surprised that a Shane Ryan basketball rule of thumb would fail after only one year. He's remarkably good at being wrong about things.

Here's the report on DBR from the inimitable Newton_14:


Originally Posted by Newton_14

That was actually Jeff Goodman. Goodman wrote an article on it. Barnes called him out of the blue in January, and asked him 3 questions:
1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

Link:http://msn.foxsports.com/coll...arolina-041811

sagegrouse
'Actually "Newton_14" is occasionally imitated by "Greg Newton," but I digress'

[Greg_Newton]

'Actually "Newton_14" is occasionally imitated by "Greg Newton," but I digress'

Hey, I take offense to that!






Congrats to our Seniors on an Elite 8 this year and great careers!

[wtm001]

Has something changed? Number three doesn't even mention UNC

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9155182/offseason-top-storylines-college-basketball

[tbyers11]

Has something changed? Number three doesn't even mention UNC

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9155182/offseason-top-storylines-college-basketball

When Wiggins reclassified into the 2013 class all the recruitniks said it was basically between FSU and Kentucky for his services. His official list also includes UNC and Kansas, but I have not heard anyone (outside of UNC fans) actually lend much credence to the idea that he is a Tar Heel next year.

[UrinalCake]

That sounds promising, but until an official announcement is made I will believe that UNC is still in play.

[NashvilleDevil]

Has something changed? Number three doesn't even mention UNC

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9155182/offseason-top-storylines-college-basketball

It does say that Kentucky is guaranteed to win if he goes there. I say let's wait and see.

[rsvman]

Has something changed? Number three doesn't even mention UNC

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9155182/offseason-top-storylines-college-basketball

Don't know if anything has changed, but I view it as a positive that UNC has been omitted from the list of potential schools for Mr. Wiggins.

Thanks for the link.

[CDu]

When Wiggins reclassified into the 2013 class all the recruitniks said it was basically between FSU and Kentucky for his services. His official list also includes UNC and Kansas, but I have not heard anyone (outside of UNC fans) actually lend much credence to the idea that he is a Tar Heel next year.

Yeah, I think most outside observers believe it is a 2-horse race between the 1-and-done factory (UK) and the parents' alma mater (FSU). UNC and KU are technically in the mix, but I think most don't see them as real players. This article is just consistent with that viewpoint.

Now, that doesn't mean he couldn't have a change of heart and go to either KU or UNC. Just that it hasn't seemed like that is a strong probability.

[Ichabod Drain]

Yeah, I think most outside observers believe it is a 2-horse race between the 1-and-done factory (UK) and the parents' alma mater (FSU). UNC and KU are technically in the mix, but I think most don't see them as real players. This article is just consistent with that viewpoint.

Now, that doesn't mean he couldn't have a change of heart and go to either KU or UNC. Just that it hasn't seemed like that is a strong probability.

The only question I have if it was down to UK and FSU why did he add UNC and KU back to the list?

[slower]

Don't know if anything has changed, but I view it as a positive that UNC has been omitted from the list of potential schools for Mr. Wiggins.

Thanks for the link.

Well, the Tarheel faithful DEFINITELY think they're in the running. In fact, many of them think they have the inside track for Wiggins.

[Kedsy]

Well, the Tarheel faithful DEFINITELY think they're in the running. In fact, many of them think they have the inside track for Wiggins.

Well, a lot of Duke faithful thought we were in the running for John Wall, but afterwards it came out that wasn't really the case.

[crimsonandblue]

The only question I have if it was down to UK and FSU why did he add UNC and KU back to the list?

When Randle finally committed to UK he basically said he'd decided in December, but held off announcing. There's been some speculation that Calipari likes to hold commitments and build drama before claiming the players on an ESPNU shenanigan-filled broadcast.

Seems like a tinfoil hat concept to me, but who knows. Calipari is about 90% used car salesman. The other 10% is a matter of speculation.

[tbyers11]

When Randle finally committed to UK he basically said he'd decided in December, but held off announcing. There's been some speculation that Calipari likes to hold commitments and build drama before claiming the players on an ESPNU shenanigans.

This makes a lot of sense now. I was wondering why Randle chose to announce that he was attending UK the day after they lost to Robert Morris in the NIT. But if he had really decided months before and Calipari was waiting until the most advantageous time too announce it; what better time than after the most humiliating defeat in many years. Change the story from "Wow, we sure suck" to "Boy, we are going to be awesome next year!" in the blink of an eye.

[rsvman]

Well, a lot of Duke faithful thought we were in the running for John Wall, but afterwards it came out that wasn't really the case.

Not to mention Harrison Barnes.

[loran16]

Well, a lot of Duke faithful thought we were in the running for John Wall, but afterwards it came out that wasn't really the case.


Not to mention Harrison Barnes.

Not sure either is a good comparison: Wall was generally thought to be Kentucky for at least the last bit of his recruiting. Barnes was a heavy Duke lean supposedly before choosing UNC late (UNC was late to recruit him which may have been the cause for this).

Wiggins is a lot more of an enigma than either of the two guys.

[tbyers11]

Not sure either is a good comparison: Wall was generally thought to be Kentucky for at least the last bit of his recruiting. Barnes was a heavy Duke lean supposedly before choosing UNC late (UNC was late to recruit him which may have been the cause for this).

Wiggins is a lot more of an enigma than either of the two guys.

I think that Wall is a really good comp for Wiggins. Just insert (FSU and UK) for Wiggins as a two school likelihood instead of just UK for Wall. I view Wiggins having UNC and KU to his list in much the same way that Wall "added" Duke to his list. We learned after the fact there was never really a chance that Wall was going to come to Duke but that he added to Duke to give his rep some polish (the Clifton brothers as his advisors and some minor legal skirmishes had tarnished it a bit) and Duke appearing to be a legit contender for Wall couldn't hurt our credentials wrt to recruiting big name studs going forward.

I don't think Wiggins needs to enhance his rep at all. All reports are that he has head on straight and is getting solid advice. However, having 2 of the college basketball blue bloods (UNC and KU) going after you hard can't hurt.

Disclaimer: I have no inside knowledge of the situation. I don't even subscribe to any pay recruiting sites. This is just my slightly informed speculation based on the reasonably informed speculation of college basketball writers and recruiting gurus.

The one scenario in which I could see Wiggins at UNC is that he doesn't want to go to FSU (he is humoring his parents) and that Kentucky is just too crowded now even for a super-stud like him. If he wants a reasonable chance at a national title and be assured of 35 minutes/gm and lots of glory (instead of fewer minutes and more shared glory at UK) then UNC might be for him. However, if I were a betting man I think he is in either Lexington or Tallahassee this fall.

[tux]

This makes a lot of sense now. I was wondering why Randle chose to announce that he was attending UK the day after they lost to Robert Morris in the NIT. But if he had really decided months before and Calipari was waiting until the most advantageous time too announce it; what better time than after the most humiliating defeat in many years. Change the story from "Wow, we sure suck" to "Boy, we are going to be awesome next year!" in the blink of an eye.


On sort of a related note: I've often wondered if recruits have ever purposely strung along programs just for the sake of screwing with their recruiting, especially when rival schools are involved.

[Duvall]

On sort of a related note: I've often wondered if recruits have ever purposely strung along programs just for the sake of screwing with their recruiting, especially when rival schools are involved.


Not to mention Harrison Barnes.

It's possible.

[MCFinARL]

On sort of a related note: I've often wondered if recruits have ever purposely strung along programs just for the sake of screwing with their recruiting, especially when rival schools are involved.

As Duvall notes, it's possible. But I'd guess it's more likely that they have purposely strung along programs because they like the attention from the coaches, and from the media and fans who are waiting to hear where they will go.

[Double DD]

On sort of a related note: I've often wondered if recruits have ever purposely strung along programs just for the sake of screwing with their recruiting, especially when rival schools are involved.

I'm not sure about screwing up the other school's recruiting to hurt the other team. But I know recruits have strung along other programs upon instruction from the coaching staff.

One example in football is Greg Little who you probably remember as one of the three UNC players suspended for the year back in 2010. He'd originally committed to Notre Dame but sometime in December was convinced to switch to North Carolina. However Butch Davis told him not to tell the Notre Dame staff that he'd changed his mind so they wouldn't increase their recruiting efforts to get him to flip back. So he kept his "verbal committment" to Notre Dame for about another month or two until National Signing Day in February, when he sent his LOI to UNC instead. Apparently Davis's powers of persuasion were immense since one of the UNC recruiting websites (Rivals or Scout) was aware of this situation the whole time but also kept quiet about the story to protect the Heels' recruiting.

[TexHawk]

A Kentucky recruitnik posted today that Wiggins did a "pro/con" for each school with his Top 10 criteria, and KU came out on top. Now, I have done a few of those pro/con lists in my time, and I have never gone with the top choice. After Randle chose UK over KU, when he is an absolute perfect fit with Bill Self, I have no idea what to think anymore.

Can Wiggins play point guard? That's all I care about.

[Olympic Fan]

I must admit that I'm starting to have mixed feelings about the Wiggins situation.

All along, like most on this board, I've wanted him to pick FSU -- both because I'm an ACC partisan and I don't want to see him go to UNC or Kentucky.

But lately, I've started to get annoyed by all the posts about how if he goes to Kentucky, we can just give them the title ... they'll be unbeatable.

I'd love to put that to the test -- I'll take the field.

Believe me, I think Kentucky will be good -- with or without Wiggins. This is a much better recruiting class than last year's -- and they won't be counting on Ryan Harrow at point guard.

But prohibitive favorites? I don't buy it. Too many imponderables. And just one basketball for Wiggins, Randle and the Harrison twins? How's that going to work.

Anyway, I've now come around to hoping he goes to Kentucky. Let's see that juggernaut and see if they are really unbeatable. Let's see them deal with al the expectations in the world.

[RoyalBlue08]

I must admit that I'm starting to have mixed feelings about the Wiggins situation.

All along, like most on this board, I've wanted him to pick FSU -- both because I'm an ACC partisan and I don't want to see him go to UNC or Kentucky.

But lately, I've started to get annoyed by all the posts about how if he goes to Kentucky, we can just give them the title ... they'll be unbeatable.

I'd love to put that to the test -- I'll take the field.

Believe me, I think Kentucky will be good -- with or without Wiggins. This is a much better recruiting class than last year's -- and they won't be counting on Ryan Harrow at point guard.

But prohibitive favorites? I don't buy it. Too many imponderables. And just one basketball for Wiggins, Randle and the Harrison twins? How's that going to work.

Anyway, I've now come around to hoping he goes to Kentucky. Let's see that juggernaut and see if they are really unbeatable. Let's see them deal with al the expectations in the world.

I have felt this way all along, but thought maybe I was crazy. I think if nothing else it would be a fascinating experiment to see that many guys with one eye on the NBA draft all on one team. I would watch if they turned the whole season into some sort of behind the scenes reality show.

[dukedoc]

But prohibitive favorites? I don't buy it. Too many imponderables. And just one basketball for Wiggins, Randle and the Harrison twins? How's that going to work.

Anyway, I've now come around to hoping he goes to Kentucky. Let's see that juggernaut and see if they are really unbeatable. Let's see them deal with al the expectations in the world.


I agree completely. This season with it's revolving door at the top of the rankings exemplified well just how crazy college basketball can be and the innumerable intangibles that can make or break a season. You need so much more than raw talent, you need leadership and maturity. Now I've heard that Julius is a good leader, but that was in high school where he was unequivocally "the man." How many of their prized recruits will truly prioritize the team and the chase of a chamionship above their opportunity to showcase their game in advance of the next level? It may come together perfectly, or it may not. It's certainly not guaranteed etiher way.

[MCFinARL]

I must admit that I'm starting to have mixed feelings about the Wiggins situation.

All along, like most on this board, I've wanted him to pick FSU -- both because I'm an ACC partisan and I don't want to see him go to UNC or Kentucky.

But lately, I've started to get annoyed by all the posts about how if he goes to Kentucky, we can just give them the title ... they'll be unbeatable.

I'd love to put that to the test -- I'll take the field.

Believe me, I think Kentucky will be good -- with or without Wiggins. This is a much better recruiting class than last year's -- and they won't be counting on Ryan Harrow at point guard.

But prohibitive favorites? I don't buy it. Too many imponderables. And just one basketball for Wiggins, Randle and the Harrison twins? How's that going to work.

Anyway, I've now come around to hoping he goes to Kentucky. Let's see that juggernaut and see if they are really unbeatable. Let's see them deal with al the expectations in the world.

Agree--the imponderables are the key. It was one thing to concede the title to Kentucky in 2011, after we'd seen them play some games with Davis and that lineup. It's another thing entirely to do it in April before the recruiting class even arrives.

And if I'm betting and one alternative is the field, I'll take those odds against any single team.

[OldPhiKap]

Would love to see him at FSU. He could be The Man.

[YmoBeThere]

Seems like a tinfoil hat concept to me, but who knows.

There was a guy back in the late 80's/early '90's at a smaller auto dealer off Hillsborough Road that used to wear a hard hat with various stuff affixed to it. I saw him on more than one occasion washing the cars there. I was usually headed to Bojangles' for a 1/4 chicken, all white, mashed potatoes and gravy, and free iced tea the morning after a heavy night of imbibing. The last time I saw him, he had some sort of plastic wrap holding 4 Walkmans to the hard hat. I do recall seeing some tinfoil on there one time, but that may be a biased memory.

We now return to our normally scheduled broadcast.

[bob blue devil]

I must admit that I'm starting to have mixed feelings about the Wiggins situation.
All along, like most on this board, I've wanted him to pick FSU -- both because I'm an ACC partisan and I don't want to see him go to UNC or Kentucky.
But lately, I've started to get annoyed by all the posts about how if he goes to Kentucky, we can just give them the title ... they'll be unbeatable.
I'd love to put that to the test -- I'll take the field.
Believe me, I think Kentucky will be good -- with or without Wiggins. This is a much better recruiting class than last year's -- and they won't be counting on Ryan Harrow at point guard.
But prohibitive favorites? I don't buy it. Too many imponderables. And just one basketball for Wiggins, Randle and the Harrison twins? How's that going to work.
Anyway, I've now come around to hoping he goes to Kentucky. Let's see that juggernaut and see if they are really unbeatable. Let's see them deal with al the expectations in the world.

i'll take the other side of this. i'd prefer he pick FSU for the reasons you state. i do agree, it would be a fascinating situation to watch unfold in kentucky, but i'd much rather watch duke have the best talent in the country and deal with those expectations. it's only fun to watch it happen in kentucky if it blows up in their faces. if it works out as you wish and they turn out not to be the obvious top dog, well they likely will still be pretty darn good - top 5, etc. that's less fun; i'd take a repeat of this past season over a "disappointment" where they are still one of the top teams with a solid shot at a title. people that say we can just hand kentucky the title, etc. - whatever, it's low on the list of things that people say that get under my skin.



Agree--the imponderables are the key. It was one thing to concede the title to Kentucky in 2011, after we'd seen them play some games with Davis and that lineup. It's another thing entirely to do it in April before the recruiting class even arrives.
And if I'm betting and one alternative is the field, I'll take those odds against any single team.

if you were conceding the title to kentucky in 2011-2012, then you were foolish. sure, with hindsight it seemed preordained, but going into the tourney they had just come off a loss to Vandy in the SEC tourney. the SEC was mediocre, so they had a nice run, but certainly shouldn't have been conceded anything. at best they probably had a 25% chance to win the title (top out there, to be fair). i expect, if they get wiggins, they'd have a shot to be a similar quality team - i.e. have as good a shot as anyone to win the title; i'd rather that not be the case.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Wiggins has cancelled upcoming trips, although his coach says it is only because he is tired.


Andrew Wiggins canceled his scheduled in-home visits with Florida State (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/FSU/florida-state-seminoles), Kansas (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/KANSAS/kansas-jayhawks) and North Carolina (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/UNC/north-carolina-tar-heels) for this week, as first reported by our own Jeff Goodman (https://twitter.com/GoodmanCBS/status/326335620635037697).
Calipari is smiling somewhere.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22115970/andrew-wiggins-cancels-visits-hs-coach-says-it-means-nothing

[COYS]

Wiggins has cancelled upcoming trips, although his coach says it is only because he is tired.


Calipari is smiling somewhere.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22115970/andrew-wiggins-cancels-visits-hs-coach-says-it-means-nothing

This is just nuts. This class makes Cal's other classes of super Frosh seem lackluster, assuming Wiggins is going to be a wildcat as this development would indicate. Whether or not it's another banner year for UK is going to depend on chemistry, which I do think could be an issue. Given the lack of veterans on the team, this will be a true experiment to see just how far super Frosh plus a few Sophs can carry a team.

[BD80]

I hear cal is petitioning the ncaa to allow 6 players on the court at a time. I understand he is willing to require both head coaches close their eyes throughout the game. He is also petitioning for a 15 second shot clock and a 5 second count to get the ball across halfcourt.

[Rich]

This is just nuts. This class makes Cal's other classes of super Frosh seem lackluster, assuming Wiggins is going to be a wildcat as this development would indicate. Whether or not it's another banner year for UK is going to depend on chemistry, which I do think could be an issue. Given the lack of veterans on the team, this will be a true experiment to see just how far super Frosh plus a few Sophs can carry a team.

Weren't the last two years at Kentucky precisely that? One time everyone got along and knew their place, and they won a National Championship. The next year they lose in the first round of the NIT. Next year will merely be the next iteration of the same experiment, but we've already seen the results. They can be great and they can be awful. It depends on the nature/personality of the kids, not necessarily their coach.

[crimsonandblue]

I hear cal is petitioning the ncaa to allow 6 players on the court at a time. I understand he is willing to require both head coaches close their eyes throughout the game. He is also petitioning for a 15 second shot clock and a 5 second count to get the ball across halfcourt.

To be fair, the SEC already allows eight, if their All-SEC team is to be believed (http://www.kbtx.com/sports/headlines/2013-SEC-Mens-Basketball-Awards-Announced-Turner-1st-Team-All-SEC-197374081.html):

First Team All-SEC
Trevor Releford, Alabama – G, 6-1, 195, Jr., Kansas City, Mo.
Erik Murphy, Florida – F/C, 6-10, 238, Sr., South Kingstown, R.I.
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – G, 6-5, 205, So., Greenville, Ga.
Nerlens Noel, Kentucky – F, 6-10, 228, Fr., Everett, Mass.
Johnny O’Bryant III, LSU – F, 6-9, 256, So., Cleveland, Miss.
Phil Pressey, Missouri – G, 5-11, 175, Jr., Dallas, Texas
Jordan McRae, Tennessee – G, 6-5, 178, Jr., Midway, Ga.
Elston Turner, Texas A&M – G, 6-5, 209, Sr., Sacramento, Calif.

[moonpie23]

chapel hill have some weather issues today with the wiggins news

[dukedoc]

Anywhere but Carolina. I wouldn't mind Kentucky. I'm not sure how all those young'uns would manage to come together. Too many studs, too few minutes. Not enough leadership. They need a young leader like Jabari. Too bad he's spoken for.

[ns7]

Weren't the last two years at Kentucky precisely that? One time everyone got along and knew their place, and they won a National Championship. The next year they lose in the first round of the NIT. Next year will merely be the next iteration of the same experiment, but we've already seen the results. They can be great and they can be awful. It depends on the nature/personality of the kids, not necessarily their coach.

Last year's recruiting class was worse than the 2012 championship team and the incoming class. Yes it was good, but you need a spectacular class to compete for titles with just freshmen. The incoming class is regarded as the best ever if they get Wiggins.

And don't tell me that the previous best ever class (Fab Five) accomplished nothing (like the front page said), they got to the title game twice and barely lost the second time.

[sagegrouse]

And don't tell me that the previous best ever class (Fab Five) accomplished nothing (like the front page said), they got to the title game twice and barely lost the second time.

And the Fab Five was just great at getting banners stripped from the ceiling of Crisler Arena. -- sagegrouse

[ns7]

And the Fab Five was just great at getting banners stripped from the ceiling of Crisler Arena. -- sagegrouse

I am separating the illegal aspect of their recruiting from their performance on the court. The two are not related when discussing whether UK will contend for a title next year. Assuming Kentucky is in the clear (which is likely a stretch given Calipari's past history), I would expect this class to compete for a title next year.

[oldnavy]

And the Fab Five was just great at getting banners stripped from the ceiling of Crisler Arena. -- sagegrouse

You know, when you really think about it, the Fab Five was way more destructive than they were anything else....

[CDu]

Last year's recruiting class was worse than the 2012 championship team and the incoming class. Yes it was good, but you need a spectacular class to compete for titles with just freshmen. The incoming class is regarded as the best ever if they get Wiggins.

And don't tell me that the previous best ever class (Fab Five) accomplished nothing (like the front page said), they got to the title game twice and barely lost the second time.

Agreed. Note as well that the 2012 championship team also had a few key players from the 2011 Final Four team, too. But the freshmen that they added for the 2012 season were much better than the freshman that they added for the 2013 season. The following are the rankings per RSCI:

2012: Anthony Davis (#1), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (#3), Marquis Teague (#7), Kyle Wiltjer (#19).
2013: Nerlens Noel (#1), Alex Poythress (#8), Archie Goodwin (#10), Willie Cauley-Stein (#38) and remember that this class was weaker overall than the 2012 class.
2014*: Andrew Harrison (#3), Julius Randle (#4), Aaron Harrison (#5), James Young (#10), Dakari Johnson (#18), Marcus Lee (#21), and counting.

And the 2012 team had sophomores Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones and senior Darius Miller returning. And the 2014 team will have Poythress, Wiltjer, and Cauley-Stein returning. The 2013 team returned none of the guys who played major minutes for the 2012 team.

It's very possible that 2014 won't end in a title. But to say that it is similar to the 2013 season (or that the 2012 season is similar to the 2013 season) is ignoring some rather substantial differences in the talent and the experience on those teams.

[mccollums]

Agreed. Note as well that the 2012 championship team also had a few key players from the 2011 Final Four team, too. But the freshmen that they added for the 2012 season were much better than the freshman that they added for the 2013 season. The following are the rankings per RSCI:

2012: Anthony Davis (#1), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (#3), Marquis Teague (#7), Kyle Wiltjer (#19).
2013: Nerlens Noel (#1), Alex Poythress (#8), Archie Goodwin (#10), Willie Cauley-Stein (#38) and remember that this class was weaker overall than the 2012 class.
2014*: Andrew Harrison (#3), Julius Randle (#4), Aaron Harrison (#5), James Young (#10), Dakari Johnson (#18), Marcus Lee (#21), and counting.

And the 2012 team had sophomores Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones and senior Darius Miller returning. And the 2014 team will have Poythress, Wiltjer, and Cauley-Stein returning. The 2013 team returned none of the guys who played major minutes for the 2012 team.

It's very possible that 2014 won't end in a title. But to say that it is similar to the 2013 season (or that the 2012 season is similar to the 2013 season) is ignoring some rather substantial differences in the talent and the experience on those teams.

The senior Darius Miller saved that teams rear end a few times early in the season. There were games when all that talent had the deer in the headlight look - and he took over. Add him and a insanely reliable 3 pt shooter in Doron Lamb - it was a great recipe for wins. Terrance Jones was up and down but ended up playing steady the last month.

This year's team will have some more experience then last year's team - but won't have a senior like Miller and who knows how well these kids can shoot. College game is dominated by defense and the 3 pt shot.

I didn't think UL would win the national championship this season because as a team they were below average shooting the ball. However, Ware's injury allowed Hancock to play more and he provided the offense from beyond the arc.

[sagegrouse]

I am separating the illegal aspect of their recruiting from their performance on the court. The two are not related when discussing whether UK will contend for a title next year. Assuming Kentucky is in the clear (which is likely a stretch given Calipari's past history), I would expect this class to compete for a title next year.

Just a gratuitous slap at the Fab Five. I thought your points were well taken. -- sagegrouse

[Channing]

I have nothing to support this, and I hope this isn't rumor mongering, but I wonder if Wiggins is considering a tour of duty in Europe before coming to the states. It obviously worked out fine for Brandon Jennings (although he had his issues while abroad) and worked out poorly for Jeremy Tyler.

[Billy Dat]

I have nothing to support this, and I hope this isn't rumor mongering, but I wonder if Wiggins is considering a tour of duty in Europe before coming to the states. It obviously worked out fine for Brandon Jennings (although he had his issues while abroad) and worked out poorly for Jeremy Tyler.

I think many of the existing barriers to the overseas year still exist, including culture shock, a different basketball style, etc. But, I think the most formidable barrier is the fact that the European overseas teams aren't exactly rolling out the red carpet because their team oriented systems aren't suited to the young superstar model. Plus, I think they want to protect their game and aren't really interested in creating a "one and done" culture overseas. There may also be rules which places quotas on the number of Americans that can play on each team. What would be really interesting would be if there was an All American team playing in one of the European leagues that was a mix of seasoned overseas veterans like Sonny Weems, Jordan Farmar, even Shelden, and these one and done kids. But, in the current environment, despite the money to be made, I think it makes a lot more sense for kids to play in D1 College Hoops.

[Olympic Fan]

Just a thought to ponder ...

Can it be the best class ever if it doesn't include either of the consensus top 2 players (as Kentucky's now doesn;t)?

Add No. 1 Wiggins ,,, and yes, you can make that clase. But now?

[CDu]

Just a thought to ponder ...

Can it be the best class ever if it doesn't include either of the consensus top 2 players (as Kentucky's now doesn;t)?

Add No. 1 Wiggins ,,, and yes, you can make that clase. But now?

I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

I mean they have the best PG in the class, the best SG in the class, the best or second-best PF in the class, the best C in the class, the 2nd best C in the class, and the 3rd or 4th best SF in the class.

If they add Wiggins (the best SF in the class), it will be unquestionably the best recruiting class of all-time. And it would be hard to see any class ever topping that.

[Billy Dat]

I am separating the illegal aspect of their recruiting from their performance on the court. The two are not related when discussing whether UK will contend for a title next year. Assuming Kentucky is in the clear (which is likely a stretch given Calipari's past history), I would expect this class to compete for a title next year.

It's fun to rip the Fab Five, but until a recruiting class wins a National Championship starting all 5 freshmen, then I credit the Fab Five, who as a starting unit went to 2 consecutive title games in an insanely competitive era of college basketball, as the best class ever, and I don't think anyone else is really close to them.

[CDu]

It's fun to rip the Fab Five, but until a recruiting class wins a National Championship starting all 5 freshmen, then I credit the Fab Five, who as a starting unit went to 2 consecutive title games in an insanely competitive era of college basketball, as the best class ever, and I don't think anyone else is really close to them.

As of right now, that statement is absolutely correct. It remains to be seen if that holds true after this year.

In terms of relative quality AND quantity of players, this year's UK class clearly tops the Fab Five (which was really a Fab 3.5, with King being somewhat fab and Jackson just being okay). The Fab Five was really just reliant on Rose, Webber, and Howard being REALLY good, King being pretty good, and Jackson being okay.

Next year's UK class could include a REALLY good option at every spot on the floor.

[Class of '94]

I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

I mean they have the best PG in the class, the best SG in the class, the best or second-best PF in the class, the best C in the class, the 2nd best C in the class, and the 3rd or 4th best SF in the class.

If they add Wiggins (the best SF in the class), it will be unquestionably the best recruiting class of all-time. And it would be hard to see any class ever topping that.

And all of thtat won't mean squat imo if they get all that talent and don't at least make it to the Final 4 next year, let alone win the NC. To me, that's a lot of pressure and expectations to have for such a young team. The KY class from a couple of years ago was quite unique and very unselfish. It reamins to be seen if the group next year can duplicate the same level of chemistry and unselfishness. My gut feeling is that Cal will have his hands full getting everyone to buy in and not have splinter groups between the returning players and the incoming players.

[Kedsy]

There may also be rules which places quotas on the number of Americans that can play on each team.

Isn't Wiggins Canadian?


I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

Are Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee top 10? (They're not according to your previous post.) If not, it's only four of the top 10 players in a class without Wiggins, right? Though granted that's still pretty amazing.


In terms of relative quality AND quantity of players, this year's UK class clearly tops the Fab Five (which was really a Fab 3.5, with King being somewhat fab and Jackson just being okay). The Fab Five was really just reliant on Rose, Webber, and Howard being REALLY good, King being pretty good, and Jackson being okay.

When the Fab Five were actually freshmen in 1992, the team was also reliant on a pretty good cast of veterans in their rotation (Riley, Talley, Voskuil, Pelinka, Hunter), including a future NBA player (Riley), four of whom started multiple games that season. Just like 2012 Kentucky, it wasn't just the freshmen.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I have nothing to support this, and I hope this isn't rumor mongering, but I wonder if Wiggins is considering a tour of duty in Europe before coming to the states. It obviously worked out fine for Brandon Jennings (although he had his issues while abroad) and worked out poorly for Jeremy Tyler.

Not to piggy-back on your rumor-mongering, but it sure seems like it would make sense. He could not play at all for a year and probably still be the number one pick in the draft. If he goes overseas, he would have a chance to make some money, start getting endorsements, and build his brand abroad. It would have to be a compelling option.

What I wonder is, from a marketing standpoint, whether it is more effective to spend a year in Spain introducing yourself to European markets, or to spend a year playing for UK on CBS. If he did it and succeeded, it would be very interesting to see how it effected the decision making of top-tier recruits who are really just spinning their wheels for a year.

I've always thought it would be interesting if kids right out of high school could go directly to the D League. Might stem the tide of kids who were marginally interested in college and let them make a little dough. Also, could increase the profile of the D League.

/my 2 cents

Go Duke!

[Billy Dat]

As of right now, that statement is absolutely correct. It remains to be seen if that holds true after this year.

In terms of relative quality AND quantity of players, this year's UK class clearly tops the Fab Five (which was really a Fab 3.5, with King being somewhat fab and Jackson just being okay). The Fab Five was really just reliant on Rose, Webber, and Howard being REALLY good, King being pretty good, and Jackson being okay.

Next year's UK class could include a REALLY good option at every spot on the floor.

Agree...I guess we have to look at this a few ways:

1. The best class on paper before anyone plays a minute of college ball. The current UK class, with Wiggins, would seem to win that award.
2. The best class ever based on what they accomplished as a unit in college basketball. I argued for the Fab Five, but maybe I am selling Noah, Green, Brewer and Horford a little short, eh? They did manage 2 National Championships.
3. The best class ever based on totality of their basketball career post high school, including the NBA. Hmmmm....that would be a fun one to research.

[Kedsy]

And all of thtat won't mean squat imo if they get all that talent and don't at least make it to the Final 4 next year, let alone win the NC.

Just curious, did the accomplishments of Duke's seniors this past season "mean squat" because we didn't "at least make it to the Final 4... let alone with the NC"? Or is the squatness relegated specifically because UK's kids are freshmen?

[CDu]

Are Dakari Johnson and Marcus Lee top 10? (They're not according to your previous post.) If not, it's only four of the top 10 players in a class without Wiggins, right? Though granted that's still pretty amazing.

You're right: it's 6 of the top-20ish. My bad. Regardless, both 4 of the top-10 and 6 of the top-21 are unprecedented. And that's without Wiggins.


When the Fab Five were actually freshmen in 1992, the team was also reliant on a pretty good cast of veterans in their rotation (Riley, Talley, Voskuil, Pelinka, Hunter), including a future NBA player (Riley), four of whom started multiple games that season. Just like 2012 Kentucky, it wasn't just the freshmen.

That is true. The fab five did eventually become the starting lineup, but King only started about half the games and Jackson less than half. Talley, Riley, and Voskuil all averaged 15-20 mpg, but Pelinka and Hunter played sparingly (and not in every game). But yes, it wasn't just the freshmen. Webber, Rose, Howard, and King did lead the team in minutes by a fairly decent margin, but Jackson was just one of the crowd along with Talley, Riley, and Voskuil.

[Kedsy]

2. The best class ever based on what they accomplished as a unit in college basketball. I argued for the Fab Five, but maybe I am selling Noah, Green, Brewer and Horford a little short, eh? They did manage 2 National Championships.

Well UCLA had several recruiting classes that won three national championships, and would have won four if they were allowed to play four years. The Thompson, Towe, Stoddard class at NC State went 57-1 their first two seasons. And there have been many other "recruiting classes" over the years that performed much better than the Fab Five if you count multiple seasons.

It seems to me if you are rating recruiting classes based on multiple seasons they'd have to more or less be the only players who made significant contributions, which as I said in an earlier post is certainly not true about the Fab Five. I'd also say the class would have to perform well from the get-go, which is really not the case for the Joakim Noah group at Florida. Noah and Green didn't start their freshman year, and Noah didn't even play very much.

What made the Fab Five special was that for almost half a season all five freshmen started, and they had a lot of swagger. While they did make the national championship game, their regular season wasn't so special -- they only earned a #6 seed. Most of the Fab Five's "greatness" was hype plus an improbable tourney run.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just curious, did the accomplishments of Duke's seniors this past season "mean squat" because we didn't "at least make it to the Final 4... let alone with the NC"? Or is the squatness relegated specifically because UK's kids are freshmen?

I'd say it depends a lot on how the kids carry themselves. The Fab Five rubbed a lot of people the wrong way due to their bluster, attitudes, and "us against the world" mentality long before they ever stepped on the floor. They were a very divisive team for a myriad of reasons, and by the time they got to the NCAA tournament, there were likely as many people rooting for them to lose as rooting for them to win.

I'd liken the expectations that they carried to Ann Arbor to LeBron going to Miami and saying "not one, not two, not three..." nonsense. I wouldn't quite say that given that level of talk, one ring "doesn't mean squat," but it sure does make it very unlikely that you will meet expectations..

And of course our seniors did win a title prior to this season, which is the un-squattiest thing you can do in a Duke uniform. If you want a Duke player who didn't do squat, let's talk about Kyrie. :)

(just kidding of course, everyone knows that Harrison Barnes is a great example of a player that didn't do squat)

As I say, lot of these kids bring these perceptions on themselves. But saying that the Fab Five "didn't do squat" is just ignorant. They had a profound impact on the sport, both positive and negative that we are still feeling 20 years later. They didn't win any hardware, and lots of us very much enjoyed that fact - particularly since our Blue Devils seemed to be their kryptonite.

The odds are against any team winning the NCAA championship any year. I'd even say that with Wiggins, I would wager big money against UK in March 2014.

Go Duke!

[CDu]

What made the Fab Five special was that for almost half a season all five freshmen started, and they had a lot of swagger. While they did make the national championship game, their regular season wasn't so special -- they only earned a #6 seed. Most of the Fab Five's "greatness" was hype plus an improbable tourney run.

Well, that and the Fab Five did consist of 2 future All-NBA players (who each scored over 15000 points in the league) and another who scored 13000 points - all of whom were physically ready to contribute in leading roles as freshman.

But it was really the Fab Three plus one pretty good freshman and one okay freshman. King and Jackson were sort of along for the ride. Rose and Webber were the legitimate stars, with Howard a very key secondary cast member.

[Kedsy]

Well, that and the Fab Five did consist of 2 future All-NBA players (who each scored over 15000 points in the league) and another who scored 13000 points - all of whom were physically ready to contribute in leading roles as freshman.

But it was really the Fab Three plus one pretty good freshman and one okay freshman. King and Jackson were sort of along for the ride. Rose and Webber were the legitimate stars, with Howard a very key secondary cast member.

Well, there have been other teams with three great players. It seems to me people wouldn't have made such a fuss over the Fab Five if any of the following were true: (a) if they'd only started three freshmen, which actually happened for more than half the season; (b) if they'd lost to Temple in the first round in 1992 (they only won by 7) or to Oklahoma State in the Sweet 16 (they only won by 3), or even to Ohio State in the Elite Eight (they only won by 4); or (c) they didn't have such a cool nickname.

[Billy Dat]

It seems to me if you are rating recruiting classes based on multiple seasons they'd have to more or less be the only players who made significant contributions, which as I said in an earlier post is certainly not true about the Fab Five. I'd also say the class would have to perform well from the get-go, which is really not the case for the Joakim Noah group at Florida. Noah and Green didn't start their freshman year, and Noah didn't even play very much.

What made the Fab Five special was that for almost half a season all five freshmen started, and they had a lot of swagger. While they did make the national championship game, their regular season wasn't so special -- they only earned a #6 seed. Most of the Fab Five's "greatness" was hype plus an improbable tourney run.

Because it's nearly impossible for any single recruiting class, in the context of a basketball team, to be the only players making significant contributions to a great team, I think the criteria has to be broadened a bit. I also don't think it's realistic to ask them to be great from the get go. As such, I think to relegate the Fab Five, who made two consecutive title games as a unit, to the "hype" bucket is selling them short. Ditto the Florida 04s who won two titles with the 4 members of their class as starters.

As for the UCLA and NC State teams you cite, I think we need to draw a generational line somewhere. College basketball was so different back then, from recruiting to early entry, etc.

Grant Hill, Tony Lang and Marty Clark stack up pretty well. Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy aint too shabby either.

[Kedsy]

Grant Hill, Tony Lang and Marty Clark stack up pretty well. Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy aint too shabby either.

Also Brand, Battier, Burgess, and Avery. And Hurley, McCaffrey, T Hill; or for that matter, Laettner, B Davis, Palmer, a class that made four Final Fours and won two championships. And who were UK's freshmen in 1996 (juniors in 1998)? The Fab Five are hardly unique in their accomplishments.

But if you're drawing generational lines, why are the Fab Five even in the discussion? They were high school seniors more than 20 years ago.

[CDu]

Well, there have been other teams with three great players. It seems to me people wouldn't have made such a fuss over the Fab Five if any of the following were true: (a) if they'd only started three freshmen, which actually happened for more than half the season; (b) if they'd lost to Temple in the first round in 1992 (they only won by 7) or to Oklahoma State in the Sweet 16 (they only won by 3), or even to Ohio State in the Elite Eight (they only won by 4); or (c) they didn't have such a cool nickname.

I disagree to some extent, starting with the first two sentences. Yes, there have been other teams with 3 great players. But at that time, there had never been a team with 3 freshman who were that good. At that time, it was really rare for a good team to have three freshman start. It was even more rare to have 3 freshman start and score double-digits. It's even more rare to have 2 freshman play at an all-conference level.

That Michigan team had Rose (17.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.0 apg) and Webber (15.5 ppg, 10.0 rpg) putting up monster numbers. They had Howard (11.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg) and King (9.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.3 apg) playing huge roles and starting for most of the year. The team's top-4 scorers, top-2 rebounders, and top-2 assist men were freshman.

Did the cool nickname help? Absolutely. But it wasn't overstating things to say that what that freshman class did was unprecedented and incredibly impressive.

[jipops]

I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

I mean they have the best PG in the class, the best SG in the class, the best or second-best PF in the class, the best C in the class, the 2nd best C in the class, and the 3rd or 4th best SF in the class.

If they add Wiggins (the best SF in the class), it will be unquestionably the best recruiting class of all-time. And it would be hard to see any class ever topping that.

I think once we have invented time travel Calipari will beat it once again by grabbing Jordan from '81, Olajuwon from '80, Paul from '03, Glen Rice from '85, and Derrick Coleman from '86.

[tommy]

Not to piggy-back on your rumor-mongering, but it sure seems like it would make sense. He could not play at all for a year and probably still be the number one pick in the draft. If he goes overseas, he would have a chance to make some money, start getting endorsements, and build his brand abroad. It would have to be a compelling option.

What I wonder is, from a marketing standpoint, whether it is more effective to spend a year in Spain introducing yourself to European markets, or to spend a year playing for UK on CBS. If he did it and succeeded, it would be very interesting to see how it effected the decision making of top-tier recruits who are really just spinning their wheels for a year.

I've always thought it would be interesting if kids right out of high school could go directly to the D League. Might stem the tide of kids who were marginally interested in college and let them make a little dough. Also, could increase the profile of the D League.

/my 2 cents

Go Duke!

They can. I just heard David Stern mention that this morning on Colin Cowherd's show, in response to Cowherd asking him about "forcing kids to go to college." Stern mentioned that nobody's being forced. They can go to play overseas or play in the D-League right away. They just need to wait a year before playing in the NBA, purportedly to give the NBA an opportunity to evaluate them against higher level competition than they saw in high school.

[Kedsy]

I disagree to some extent, starting with the first two sentences. Yes, there have been other teams with 3 great players. But at that time, there had never been a team with 3 freshman who were that good. At that time, it was really rare for a good team to have three freshman start. It was even more rare to have 3 freshman start and score double-digits. It's even more rare to have 2 freshman play at an all-conference level.

That Michigan team had Rose (17.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.0 apg) and Webber (15.5 ppg, 10.0 rpg) putting up monster numbers. They had Howard (11.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg) and King (9.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.3 apg) playing huge roles and starting for most of the year. The team's top-4 scorers, top-2 rebounders, and top-2 assist men were freshman.

Did the cool nickname help? Absolutely. But it wasn't overstating things to say that what that freshman class did was unprecedented and incredibly impressive.

Rare, yes. Impressive, yes. Unprecedented? No. In 1982-83, Duke started four freshmen, and four of its top five scorers, top four rebounders, and by far top assist man were all freshmen. The difference was 1991-92 Michigan was a good team (due at least to some extent because the non-freshmen on that team were good) and 1982-83 Duke wasn't. I'm sure lots of other teams from whenever freshmen became eligible up to 1991 had three or four or five freshmen playing who played big roles, but we don't remember them because they didn't get to the Final Four and didn't get so much press. And if freshmen had always been eligible, my guess is that Michigan bunch wouldn't have even been in the top five (and probably not in the top ten).

[Billy Dat]

The Fab Five are hardly unique in their accomplishments.

But if you're drawing generational lines, why are the Fab Five even in the discussion? They were high school seniors more than 20 years ago.

I think that a class of 5 freshmen who made runs to two championship games, as starters, in their first two years is pretty unique. It hasn't happened before or since.

As for the generational lines, I think the era that the Fab Five played in is a little closer to the modern era in terms of early entry and freshmen getting meaningful playing time then the UCLA and NC State teams of the 60s and 70s.

[CDu]

Rare, yes. Impressive, yes. Unprecedented? No. In 1982-83, Duke started four freshmen, and four of its top five scorers, top four rebounders, and by far top assist man were all freshmen. The difference was 1991-92 Michigan was a good team (due at least to some extent because the non-freshmen on that team were good) and 1982-83 Duke wasn't. I'm sure lots of other teams from whenever freshmen became eligible up to 1991 had three or four or five freshmen playing who played big roles, but we don't remember them because they didn't get to the Final Four and didn't get so much press. And if freshmen had always been eligible, my guess is that Michigan bunch wouldn't have even been in the top five (and probably not in the top ten).

Yes, the key distinction is that Michigan was good.

As for the last sentence, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

First your argument was that they weren't the primary reason that Michigan went to 2 Final Fours. That is false. They were the primary reason. Now it's "well, they wouldn't be so impressive if freshman were always allowed to play?"

[Kedsy]

I think that a class of 5 freshmen who made runs to two championship games, as starters, in their first two years is pretty unique. It hasn't happened before or since.

As for the generational lines, I think the era that the Fab Five played in is a little closer to the modern era in terms of early entry and freshmen getting meaningful playing time then the UCLA and NC State teams of the 60s and 70s.

Well, OK. To me the lines are pretty blurry. The early '90s might be closer to the current climate, but they weren't particularly close.

And while five starting freshmen making the Final Four may be unique, my point was it was in many ways a gimmick. Only three of those guys started more than half the season, and you could argue that the other two (or certainly one) didn't really deserve to start. But if only three (or even four) of them started, nobody would have made such a fuss.

[Kedsy]

First your argument was that they weren't the primary reason that Michigan went to 2 Final Fours. That is false. They were the primary reason. Now it's "well, they wouldn't be so impressive if freshman were always allowed to play?"

That wasn't my argument at all. My argument was the freshmen weren't the whole team -- that the non-freshmen were important to the team's success. My argument now is that the strength of the 1991-92 Michigan freshman class wasn't unprecedented (your word). I still think both those things are true.

[BD80]

I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

I mean they have the best PG in the class, the best SG in the class, the best or second-best PF in the class, the best C in the class, the 2nd best C in the class, and the 3rd or 4th best SF in the class.

If they add Wiggins (the best SF in the class), it will be unquestionably the best recruiting class of all-time. And it would be hard to see any class ever topping that.

Much depends on how one defines greatest recruiting class. If looking at impact, requiring 5 freshman is a bit arbitrary. I would suggest the best players make the most impact, Lou Alcinder and the rest of his class probably fit that bill.

I also think the "rankings" are meaningless in comparing different years. This year's class is so much better than last year's, that getting 5 in the top 20 this year could well be better than 5 from the top 10 last year.

That said, it is fair to say that with Wiggins, this year's Ky class is the best recruiting haul ever. It has talent (top rated kids from a talented class), depth (nine recruits) and the diversity in talents and positions.

[CDu]

That wasn't my argument at all. My argument was the freshmen weren't the whole team -- that the non-freshmen were important to the team's success. My argument now is that the strength of the 1991-92 Michigan freshman class wasn't unprecedented (your word). I still think both those things are true.

The Fab Five were, by far, the most important pieces of that team's success. And note that the team had its most success once they committed to the Fab Five. Were they the entire reason for Michigan's success? No. Obviously not. No 5 players are going to play all 40 minutes of a game, so somebody is going to contribute off the bench. And Michigan had 3 guys contribute roughly as much as the 5th member of the Fab Five. But the other 4 members of the Fab Five were far above the rest of the team in terms of contributions.

And I believe it was unprecedented to have 2 freshman starters at All-conference level, 4 freshman starters for the majority of the season, and 5 freshman starters for about half of the season. And it was certainly unprecedented for such a team to have the amount of success that they had. One can nitpick on any one particular piece of that story. But the story in aggregate was certainly unprecedented.

[moonpie23]

if you wand to jack up some of your unc friends, just ask them about "wiggins going to uk?"


it's cruel, but fun...

[Class of '94]

Just curious, did the accomplishments of Duke's seniors this past season "mean squat" because we didn't "at least make it to the Final 4... let alone with the NC"? Or is the squatness relegated specifically because UK's kids are freshmen?

LOL!!! Sorry for the late replay. Simply referring to the hype surrounding this team next year in regards to expectations. While this year's Duke team had final 4 and championship potential, they didn't have those expectations at the beginning of the year by the media. From a fan perspective, it does imo feel like the team (and the players would admit this as well) never reached its full potential (such as winning the ACC and getting to the final 4) due to injuries. That said, you can appreciate what this year's team accomplished looking back (the 30 wins; being in the top 10 all year and no 1 multiple times) despite the injuries.

As far as KY goes, the media and fan expectations are so high for next year's team that if they don't at least get to the final 4, I believe the team's season will be viewed as disappointing even if they rack up a lot of wins. Again, jmo.

[Kedsy]

As far as KY goes, the media and fan expectations are so high for next year's team that if they don't at least get to the final 4, I believe the team's season will be viewed as disappointing even if they rack up a lot of wins. Again, jmo.

I'll buy that, although personally I don't think it's fair to judge a team solely on its NCAAT performance.

[BD80]

I'll buy that, although personally I don't think it's fair to judge a team solely on its NCAAT performance.

Fair? What about calipari's recruiting successes over the last few years, and particularly this year? There's nothing fair about that!

[Class of '94]

I'll buy that, although personally I don't think it's fair to judge a team solely on its NCAAT performance.

I agree; but unfortunately for the blue blood progarms like Duke and KY, the determination of how successful a season these teams have are based (fairly or unfairly) on whether or not they reached the final 4 and/or win the NC.

[Kedsy]

Fair? What about calipari's recruiting successes over the last few years, and particularly this year? There's nothing fair about that!

Would you say that if Duke got all those guys?

Unless Cal's cheating (and that's certainly possible, given his history and reputation), then it's fair until they change the rules.

[jipops]

Sour grapes and keeping it heel dumb (http://keepingitheel.com/2013/04/24/unc-recruiting-why-andrew-wiggins-not-coming-to-unc-is-a-good-thing/)

[Olympic Fan]

I don't think anyone has gotten 6 of the top-10 players in a class before. So yes, even without Wiggins, they'd have the best class ever.

I mean they have the best PG in the class, the best SG in the class, the best or second-best PF in the class, the best C in the class, the 2nd best C in the class, and the 3rd or 4th best SF in the class.

If they add Wiggins (the best SF in the class), it will be unquestionably the best recruiting class of all-time. And it would be hard to see any class ever topping that.

6 of the top 10?

By whose measure? Not RSCI or ESPN, which currently have Kentucky with four of the top 10. They ONLY have two of the top 5 (No. 3 Randle and No. 5 Andrew Harrison according to ESPN ... RSCI'
s final rankings aren't out -- they still don't have Wiggins re-classified) -- that's hardly a record.

Now, I'm not saying that's not a good class -- even a great class -- but can a class topped by No. 3 and No. 5 be the best class of all time?

Duke's 1997 class was one year before the RSCI started its catalogue. But Brand, Battier and Burgess all won major national prep players of the year awards -- if the rankings were up in those year, they all three almost certainly would have been top three would have been top 5 -- maybe 1-2-4. Avery wasn't quite that good, but he was a Parade All-American. In terms of talent at the top -- based on prep ratings -- it may have been the best ever. BTW: It's the only class in NCAA history to include two consensus national players of the year (Brand in 1999; Battier in 2001).

I guess my question is philosophical -- do a lot of very good players trump a fewer number of truly great players? Now, I'm not saying that Wiggins and/or Parker are great ... but the weigh of available evidence seems to suggest they have a better chance to achieve that status that the Harrison twins ...

IMHO, the best class of all time -- I'm still holding out for Alcindor, Lucius Allen, Lynn Shackleford, Kenny Heitz and company. Those four started as sophomores (freshmen weren't alowed to play varsity) in 1967 on an undefeated national championship team. Alcindor was the national player of the year, averaging over 29 points and 15 rebounds. Was anybody on the Fab Five anywhere near that good? Lucius Allen was a second-team All-American in his first year as a varsity player.

Allen had some academic issues and Heitz was replaced by better players ... but Alcindor and Shackleford started on three straight national title games. Without the freshman eligibility rules, they win four national titles ... although to be fair, in today's environment, Alcindor leads then to the 1966 national title as a freshman (and we never hear of Texas Western) then goes pro.

Maybe my view of the Fab Five is shaped by the fact that they were 0-5 against Duke ... 0-3 when they had their full complement before Webber left after his sophomore year. They never finished ranked higher than No. 3 in the nation (heck, that No. 3 finish in '93 was the only time they finished in the top 10). Yeah, they reached two straight title games -- so did Butler in 2010-11 -- but they never won a conference title or a national championship. They are the most overrated team in college basketball history.

[Kedsy]

Duke's 1997 class was one year before the RSCI started its catalogue. But Brand, Battier and Burgess all won major national prep players of the year awards -- if the rankings were up in those year, they all three almost certainly would have been top three would have been top 5 -- maybe 1-2-4. Avery wasn't quite that good, but he was a Parade All-American. In terms of talent at the top -- based on prep ratings -- it may have been the best ever. BTW: It's the only class in NCAA history to include two consensus national players of the year (Brand in 1999; Battier in 2001).

I did some research into this at one time (although I don't have the links anymore). The awards don't necessarily coincide with recruiting rankings (and Burgess's award was I believe in his sophomore or maybe junior year, definitely not senior year). By the summer before they came to Duke (which is when the final RSCI comes out), Brand was consensus top 3 (but probably not #1), Battier was consensus #7 or #8, and Burgess had dropped into the 20s. Avery was probably also in the 20s.

So probably only one in the top five and nowhere close to #1, 2, and 4.

[Kedsy]

6 of the top 10?

By whose measure? Not RSCI or ESPN, which currently have Kentucky with four of the top 10. They ONLY have two of the top 5 (No. 3 Randle and No. 5 Andrew Harrison according to ESPN ... RSCI's final rankings aren't out -- they still don't have Wiggins re-classified) -- that's hardly a record.

Also, CDu already admitted he meant 4 of the top 10, not 6. And according to last summer's RSCI (as you point out the final RSCI isn't out yet), Kentucky's top four recruits rank #2, #3, #4, and #7. If Wiggins just slides into the top spot and UK gets him, that'd be 4 of the top 5 (not 2), and 5 of the top 8.

Obviously in the final rankings these guys may have dropped, but 4 of the top 5 and 5 of the top 8 would be a historic class.

[Duvall]

Sour grapes and keeping it heel dumb (http://keepingitheel.com/2013/04/24/unc-recruiting-why-andrew-wiggins-not-coming-to-unc-is-a-good-thing/)

Why would anyone write that, or publish it?

For a prima donna, Wiggins doesn't seem to court attention much. He *gets* attention, mostly because he looks to be the Next Big Thing. But I haven't seen much to indicate that he seeks it out.

[CDu]

6 of the top 10?

By whose measure? Not RSCI or ESPN, which currently have Kentucky with four of the top 10. They ONLY have two of the top 5 (No. 3 Randle and No. 5 Andrew Harrison according to ESPN ... RSCI'
s final rankings aren't out -- they still don't have Wiggins re-classified) -- that's hardly a record.

You're late to the party. I've already discussed this with Kedsy. That was an error by me. It's 4 of the top-10 (which IS a record) and 6 of the top-21 (also a record). And if they add Wiggins, that's 5 of the top-10 and 7 of the top-21. Even more of a record.


Now, I'm not saying that's not a good class -- even a great class -- but can a class topped by No. 3 and No. 5 be the best class of all time?

Yes, yes it can. If you add to those two elite guys two more top-10 guys and then 10 more top-21 guys. And if you add the #1 guy, it's no longer even a debate.


Duke's 1997 class was one year before the RSCI started its catalogue. But Brand, Battier and Burgess all won major national prep players of the year awards -- if the rankings were up in those year, they all three almost certainly would have been top three would have been top 5 -- maybe 1-2-4. Avery wasn't quite that good, but he was a Parade All-American. In terms of talent at the top -- based on prep ratings -- it may have been the best ever. BTW: It's the only class in NCAA history to include two consensus national players of the year (Brand in 1999; Battier in 2001).

I don't know that 1-2-4 is accurate. Many have said that Burgess's star had faded some as a senior in high school. Maybe he was still top-10, but certainly not top-4. Baron Davis, Lamar Odom, Tracy McGrady, Larry Hughes, and Marcus Fizer deserve to be in that discussion as well.


I guess my question is philosophical -- do a lot of very good players trump a fewer number of truly great players? Now, I'm not saying that Wiggins and/or Parker are great ... but the weigh of available evidence seems to suggest they have a better chance to achieve that status that the Harrison twins ...

I note that you've excluded Randle from the discussion. I'd put him on par with those top-two guys in terms of potential.

But with regard to your philosophical question, I think you're understating the quality of UK's class. Randle is close enough to the top guys that, along with the 3 other top-10 guys and 5 other top-21 guys, put them over the top.

Could you say that a class with the best player ever and 3-4 really good players be better? Possibly. No real way to come to a consensus on this.


IMHO, the best class of all time -- I'm still holding out for Alcindor, Lucius Allen, Lynn Shackleford, Kenny Heitz and company. Those four started as sophomores (freshmen weren't alowed to play varsity) in 1967 on an undefeated national championship team. Alcindor was the national player of the year, averaging over 29 points and 15 rebounds. Was anybody on the Fab Five anywhere near that good? Lucius Allen was a second-team All-American in his first year as a varsity player.

Allen had some academic issues and Heitz was replaced by better players ... but Alcindor and Shackleford started on three straight national title games. Without the freshman eligibility rules, they win four national titles ... although to be fair, in today's environment, Alcindor leads then to the 1966 national title as a freshman (and we never hear of Texas Western) then goes pro.

I think we have to throw out the pre-frosh classes, because none of those guys started as freshman. The impressive thing about the Fab Five is that they were freshman. Who knows how good some of those guys would have been as freshman (aside from Alcindor, of course - he was a freak).


Maybe my view of the Fab Five is shaped by the fact that they were 0-5 against Duke ... 0-3 when they had their full complement before Webber left after his sophomore year. They never finished ranked higher than No. 3 in the nation (heck, that No. 3 finish in '93 was the only time they finished in the top 10). Yeah, they reached two straight title games -- so did Butler in 2010-11 -- but they never won a conference title or a national championship. They are the most overrated team in college basketball history.

I think you're right: your view is shaped by the Fab Five's record against Duke. Going 0-3 against one of the best teams ever is certainly no crime: especially considering they were completely reliant on freshmen/sophomores, while the 1991 and 1992 Duke teams were buoyed by quite a few more veteran stars. What they accomplished - as freshman and sophomores - is REALLY REALLY impressive.

Are they among the greatest teams of all time? Absolutely not. I don't think anyone would reasonably argue that. But we're not talking about greatest team. We're talking about greatest freshman class. Two very different things.

[miramar]

I did some research into this at one time (although I don't have the links anymore). The awards don't necessarily coincide with recruiting rankings (and Burgess's award was I believe in his sophomore or maybe junior year, definitely not senior year). By the summer before they came to Duke (which is when the final RSCI comes out), Brand was consensus top 3 (but probably not #1), Battier was consensus #7 or #8, and Burgess had dropped into the 20s. Avery was probably also in the 20s.

So probably only one in the top five and nowhere close to #1, 2, and 4.

Since the rankings weren't as readily available as they are today, I think most people didn't realize that Burgess had slipped, so that class may have seemed to be deeper than it was. Worse yet, I don't think that Mr. Burgess ever figured out what was happening.

If we want to consider a counterfactual, we can also look at the most mediocre yet outstanding recruiting class in recent memory. Florida's Fab Four was something like the #10 recruiting class in the country, yet they won two championships and would have been the overwhelming favorites for a third title if they had stayed in school. All this with only one McDonald's AA.

[Kedsy]

If we want to consider a counterfactual, we can also look at the most mediocre yet outstanding recruiting class in recent memory. Florida's Fab Four was something like the #10 recruiting class in the country, yet they won two championships and would have been the overwhelming favorites for a third title if they had stayed in school. All this with only one McDonald's AA.

Florida's class was ranked #8 by RSCI, but the individual rankings weren't anywhere close to the kind of classes we've been discussing in this thread:

Brewer #25
Horford #47
Noah #72
Green unranked

Based on ranking alone, that would be one of Duke's worst classes of the 21st century. Which I guess shows that recruiting ranking isn't everything, although it's still the best measure we have before the kids actually begin to play.

[JasonEvans]

As I attempt to shift this thread back to the most important uncommitted recruit in the land right now...

A Kansas sportswriter does not even try to hide how nefarious it would be in suggesting that Kansas should hire Mitchell Wiggins (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2013/apr/29/opinion-note-self-hire-mitchell-wiggins/), Andrew's father, as an assistant coach.


Does Mitchell Wiggins have a gift for teaching basketball? Well, since his son is the No. 1 recruit in the nation, my guess would be yes.

I can’t think of a single reason not to see at least if Mitchell Wiggins has any interest in not just watching his son play one year of college basketball but get paid to do so and have full access to him as a member of his college of choice’s coaching staff.

I find this practice reprehensible and as close as it comes to out-and-out paying players. But, it is within the rules and it is done all the time by some programs. Kansas, especially, has a history of this. I won't be even mildly surprised if Wiggins' recruitment ends this way.

Of course, if a school was talking to Mitchell Wiggins about a package deal with his son, we would not hear anything about it until after Andrew had signed his LOI. So, for all we know, Mitchell has already been offered a job... maybe by more than one school.

-Jason "I doubt Cal would do this as it would establish a precedent with him that he probably would not want to continue" Evans

[tommy]

As I attempt to shift this thread back to the most important uncommitted recruit in the land right now...

A Kansas sportswriter does not even try to hide how nefarious it would be in suggesting that Kansas should hire Mitchell Wiggins (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2013/apr/29/opinion-note-self-hire-mitchell-wiggins/), Andrew's father, as an assistant coach.



I find this practice reprehensible and as close as it comes to out-and-out paying players. But, it is within the rules and it is done all the time by some programs. Kansas, especially, has a history of this. I won't be even mildly surprised if Wiggins' recruitment ends this way.

Of course, if a school was talking to Mitchell Wiggins about a package deal with his son, we would not hear anything about it until after Andrew had signed his LOI. So, for all we know, Mitchell has already been offered a job... maybe by more than one school.

-Jason "I doubt Cal would do this as it would establish a precedent with him that he probably would not want to continue" Evans

Paging Ed Manning.

I don't know what the Wiggins family's financial situation is. It may already be solid, as Mitchell had a successful NBA career himself. But unless Andrew suffers a catastrophic injury in the next 12 months, there is little doubt that this family is going to be rich beyond its wildest dreams when the young man is selected at the very top of the 2014 NBA Draft. I don't know that a year of a college assistant coach's salary is going to be all that much of an enticement.

But I'm with you. The whole idea of it is repugnant, but I think it happens. But then again, the outright paying of players that you refer to happens as well. That is something that few of us fans want to think about or acknowledge, but it has always been part of college basketball and still is.

[BD80]

As I attempt to shift this thread back to the most important uncommitted recruit in the land right now...

A Kansas sportswriter does not even try to hide how nefarious it would be in suggesting that Kansas should hire Mitchell Wiggins (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2013/apr/29/opinion-note-self-hire-mitchell-wiggins/), Andrew's father, as an assistant coach.



I find this practice reprehensible and as close as it comes to out-and-out paying players. But, it is within the rules and it is done all the time by some programs. Kansas, especially, has a history of this. I won't be even mildly surprised if Wiggins' recruitment ends this way.

Of course, if a school was talking to Mitchell Wiggins about a package deal with his son, we would not hear anything about it until after Andrew had signed his LOI. So, for all we know, Mitchell has already been offered a job... maybe by more than one school.

-Jason "I doubt Cal would do this as it would establish a precedent with him that he probably would not want to continue" Evans

I want to be clear. You are saying that cal wouldn't do this because of the precedent, and NOT because it would be too nefarious?

Because I think cal would sink as low as the rules allow to secure a commitment.

I also believe there are enough coaching-like positions (academic advisor) on the staff that provide access to the games and players that cal would have absolutely no issue creating a precedent. In fact, I would think he would want it known that his players' families are the best paid that the rules allow (well, don't prohibit).

[sagegrouse]

As I attempt to shift this thread back to the most important uncommitted recruit in the land right now...

A Kansas sportswriter does not even try to hide how nefarious it would be in suggesting that Kansas should hire Mitchell Wiggins (http://www2.kusports.com/news/2013/apr/29/opinion-note-self-hire-mitchell-wiggins/), Andrew's father, as an assistant coach.



I find this practice reprehensible and as close as it comes to out-and-out paying players. But, it is within the rules and it is done all the time by some programs. Kansas, especially, has a history of this. I won't be even mildly surprised if Wiggins' recruitment ends this way.

Of course, if a school was talking to Mitchell Wiggins about a package deal with his son, we would not hear anything about it until after Andrew had signed his LOI. So, for all we know, Mitchell has already been offered a job... maybe by more than one school.

-Jason "I doubt Cal would do this as it would establish a precedent with him that he probably would not want to continue" Evans


I want to be clear. You are saying that cal wouldn't do this because of the precedent, and NOT because it would be too nefarious?

Because I think cal would sink as low as the rules allow to secure a commitment.

I also believe there are enough coaching-like positions (academic advisor) on the staff that provide access to the games and players that cal would have absolutely no issue creating a precedent. In fact, I would think he would want it known that his players' families are the best paid that the rules allow (well, don't prohibit).

This discussion is so 1980s!!!

A coaching position is far too visible and could be, if possible, truly embarrassing to the school and head coach. Many players' families choose to move to the state where the son attends college. It is amazing how good the employment prospects are for dad and mom in these cases! Now in Wiggins's case, as Canadian citizens there are Green Card issues. I doubt Duke grad Rand Paul would be of help, but I am sure Mitch McConnell would find time on his busy schedule to prevent the tragic separation of Andrew Wiggins from his parents.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

This discussion is so 1980s!!!

A coaching position is far too visible and could be, if possible, truly embarrassing to the school and head coach. Many players' families choose to move to the state where the son attends college. It is amazing how good the employment prospects are for dad and mom in these cases! Now in Wiggins's case, as Canadian citizens there are Green Card issues. I doubt Duke grad Rand Paul would be of help, but I am sure Mitch McConnell would find time on his busy schedule to prevent the tragic separation of Andrew Wiggins from his parents.

sagegrouse

I know this post is in jest, but I think the bolded part is a non-issue. Mitchell Wiggins is American (born in Kinston, NC). His wife is Canadian, and the family lives in Canada. But I don't think Mitchell Wiggins would require a green card to work in the US.

[TruBlu]

I want to be clear. You are saying that cal wouldn't do this because of the precedent, and NOT because it would be too nefarious?

Because I think cal would sink as low as the rules allow to secure a commitment.

I also believe there are enough coaching-like positions (academic advisor) on the staff that provide access to the games and players that cal would have absolutely no issue creating a precedent. In fact, I would think he would want it known that his players' families are the best paid that the rules allow (well, don't prohibit).

Cal has been known to sink lower than the rules allow.

[sagegrouse]

I know this post is in jest, but I think the bolded part is a non-issue. Mitchell Wiggins is American (born in Kinston, NC). His wife is Canadian, and the family lives in Canada. But I don't think Mitchell Wiggins would require a green card to work in the US.

That makes it easier. Only Ms. Wiggins will need help from the Ky. delegation.

sage

[niveklaen]

Now I understand UNC's confidence - they have a track record of giving jobs with special benefits to player's mothers, and Tammy's old slot is still open...

[tommy]

That makes it easier. Only Ms. Wiggins will need help from the Ky. delegation.

sage

Mr. Tudball needs a secretary.

[OldPhiKap]

Mr. Tudball needs a secretary.

You beat me to it, just about to go find a picture on the internet.

I wonder if she can work a dictaphone? http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+mrs+wiggins+carol+burnett&mid=718469F40DB896F075A2718469F40DB896F075A2&view=detail&FORM=VIRE6

[JasonEvans]

According to a quote by the woman who is hosting Wiggins while he lives in the US, a decision on his school (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130506/COLUMNISTS02/305060098/Kentucky-basketball-target-Andrew-Wiggins-taking-time-teenager?gcheck=1) is likely to come in the next week.


Thomas said she still does not know the exact date of Wiggins’ reveal, but there are signs that it could be quite soon. Wiggins told her that his mother, Marita Payne-Wiggins, is planning to come to West Virginia from Canada to support his announcement. Thomas said that would be “sometime in the next week or so.”

“He said, ‘When I declare where I’m going, my mom is going to be there with me,” Thomas said.

He's a level-headed kid who does not seem to relish the spotlight too much. I wonder how much of an elaborate production he does for his announcement. I bet it is televised by ESPN, but isn't all that over-the-top.

-Jason "FSU... pick FSU!" Evans

[dukedoc]

According to a quote by the woman who is hosting Wiggins while he lives in the US, a decision on his school (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130506/COLUMNISTS02/305060098/Kentucky-basketball-target-Andrew-Wiggins-taking-time-teenager?gcheck=1) is likely to come in the next week.



He's a level-headed kid who does not seem to relish the spotlight too much. I wonder how much of an elaborate production he does for his announcement. I bet it is televised by ESPN, but isn't all that over-the-top.

-Jason "FSU... pick FSU!" Evans


I just hope he doesn't 1) do the multiple hats on the table thing, 2) say "I'm taking my talents to..."

In case he is wondering what my preferences are: 1. FSU, 2. KU, 3. Europe, 4. Post grad program, 5. UK, 6. UNC

[GGLC]

I just hope he doesn't 1) do the multiple hats on the table thing, 2) say "I'm taking my talents to..."

In case he is wondering what my preferences are: 1. FSU, 2. KU, 3. Europe, 4. Post grad program, 5. UK, 6. UNC

These preferences sound about right. Maybe add the Clackamas Community College Cougars before UNC.

[Ichabod Drain]

According to a quote by the woman who is hosting Wiggins while he lives in the US, a decision on his school (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130506/COLUMNISTS02/305060098/Kentucky-basketball-target-Andrew-Wiggins-taking-time-teenager?gcheck=1) is likely to come in the next week.



He's a level-headed kid who does not seem to relish the spotlight too much. I wonder how much of an elaborate production he does for his announcement. I bet it is televised by ESPN, but isn't all that over-the-top.

-Jason "FSU... pick FSU!" Evans

The spring signing period ends next wednesday. While he technically doesn't have to sign by then it is the last time he can sign a LOI for next year.

[CDu]

The spring signing period ends next wednesday. While he technically doesn't have to sign by then it is the last time he can sign a LOI for next year.

Right, but what exactly does signing a letter of intent do to benefit Wiggins (or any recruit)? I've in fact heard that an LOI is a bad thing for the player. So I don't see any reason why he'd want to sign one.

[Ichabod Drain]

Right, but what exactly does signing a letter of intent do to benefit Wiggins (or any recruit)? I've in fact heard that an LOI is a bad thing for the player. So I don't see any reason why he'd want to sign one.

The LOI guarantees he will have a scholarship from that school, though I don't think wiggins has to worry about that.

The LOI also would mean that once he announces and signs no other schools could contact him for recruitment. So if he waited till the 16th and announced, then all the schools that he didn't select could still contact him and recruit him until the beginning of the school year.

For Wiggins i would say he doesn't need it. But I definitely wouldn't say it's a bad thing for your average student athlete.

[CDu]

The LOI guarantees he will have a scholarship from that school, though I don't think wiggins has to worry about that.

The LOI also would mean that once he announces and signs no other schools could contact him for recruitment. So if he waited till the 16th and announced, then all the schools that he didn't select could still contact him and recruit him until the beginning of the school year.

For Wiggins i would say he doesn't need it. But I definitely wouldn't say it's a bad thing for your average student athlete.

It only guarantees a scholarship for one year, though. Which, for the average student athlete isn't worth much (since the average student athlete would get that scholarship anyway).

I'd say it is really only valuable for the fringe scholarship player. For anyone on the middle-to-upper landscape of high school recruits, it's not really a good idea.

That being said, many kids do it anyway. And it may well be that Wiggins does so as well (since the rumor is that it might happen within the next week).

[Ichabod Drain]

It only guarantees a scholarship for one year, though. Which, for the average student athlete isn't worth much (since the average student athlete would get that scholarship anyway).

I'd say it is really only valuable for the fringe scholarship player. For anyone on the middle-to-upper landscape of high school recruits, it's not really a good idea.

That being said, many kids do it anyway. And it may well be that Wiggins does so as well (since the rumor is that it might happen within the next week).


Most teams offer more scholarships than they have open spots for. So if a kid signs a LOI it means he's guaranteed one of those opens spots and can't be recruited over.

I don't think it a big deal and probably rarely causes any issues, just curious in what way you think it is bad for the student athlete?

[Olympic Fan]

Most teams offer more scholarships than they have open spots for. So if a kid signs a LOI it means he's guaranteed one of those opens spots and can't be recruited over.

I don't think it a big deal and probably rarely causes any issues, just curious in what way you think it is bad for the student athlete?

Because it locks him in, no matter what happens. The school goes on probation -- unless it's a four-year probation, he's still locked in. The coach who recruited him leaves ... he's still locked in (and this happens A LOT -- sometimes kids are released, but often they are not). The school loses academic accretidation (which COULD happen at UNC) ... the kid is still locked in.

I agree that it doesn't matter much for Wiggins, who is going to get a scholarship whether he signs an LOI or not. But it might matter if, say, he picks Kentucky and signs with them, then next month, Calipari leaves to coach to New York Nets. Too bad Andrew.

If my son were a marginal prospect, he might not have much choice. But if I were the father of a top prospect, I would not let him sign a LOI. I'd tell him to give a verbal to his school of choice in return for a verbal promise of the scholarship. If the coach/school reneged on the deal, then you'd know the coach was a scumbag and my son would be better off somewhere else.

The LOI is worthless for the kid ... it's only good for the school.

[crimsonandblue]

Because it locks him in, no matter what happens. The school goes on probation -- unless it's a four-year probation, he's still locked in. The coach who recruited him leaves ... he's still locked in (and this happens A LOT -- sometimes kids are released, but often they are not). The school loses academic accretidation (which COULD happen at UNC) ... the kid is still locked in.

I agree that it doesn't matter much for Wiggins, who is going to get a scholarship whether he signs an LOI or not. But it might matter if, say, he picks Kentucky and signs with them, then next month, Calipari leaves to coach to New York Nets. Too bad Andrew.

If my son were a marginal prospect, he might not have much choice. But if I were the father of a top prospect, I would not let him sign a LOI. I'd tell him to give a verbal to his school of choice in return for a verbal promise of the scholarship. If the coach/school reneged on the deal, then you'd know the coach was a scumbag and my son would be better off somewhere else.

The LOI is worthless for the kid ... it's only good for the school.

Agreed that if you, the prospect, have leverage and your schools are holding a place, there's no reason to sign an LOI and you'd be much better off signing a scholarship agreement with the school.

[Ichabod Drain]

Because it locks him in, no matter what happens. The school goes on probation -- unless it's a four-year probation, he's still locked in. The coach who recruited him leaves ... he's still locked in (and this happens A LOT -- sometimes kids are released, but often they are not). The school loses academic accretidation (which COULD happen at UNC) ... the kid is still locked in.

I agree that it doesn't matter much for Wiggins, who is going to get a scholarship whether he signs an LOI or not. But it might matter if, say, he picks Kentucky and signs with them, then next month, Calipari leaves to coach to New York Nets. Too bad Andrew.

If my son were a marginal prospect, he might not have much choice. But if I were the father of a top prospect, I would not let him sign a LOI. I'd tell him to give a verbal to his school of choice in return for a verbal promise of the scholarship. If the coach/school reneged on the deal, then you'd know the coach was a scumbag and my son would be better off somewhere else.

The LOI is worthless for the kid ... it's only good for the school.

All that has to happen for the prospective student to get out of the contract is ask the universirty to release him/her from the LOI. This just happened with Freeman at UCLA. It would look bad on the school to not release a player who wanted out, especially if there are any extenuating circumstances like the ones you mentioned above. And I don't think any team wants a player that doesn't want to be there.

To me it's win/win for the player.

[UrinalCake]

In case he is wondering what my preferences are: 1. FSU, 2. KU, 3. Europe, 4. Post grad program, 5. UK, 6. UNC

I actually hope he goes to UK. They already have a gluttony of talent, adding one more superstar won't change that, but it will give them another ego to have to manage. I think he could push them over the top, to where the locker room will break down and they'll become a comedy of dysfunction. Cal will lose the team when every single player is told by an agent that he'll be the #1 pick if he can just take more shots and showcase more individual skills. As a result of this season, the one and done rule is abolished and Calipari goes on to take a job coaching the Nets (again).

At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.

[Class of '94]

I actually hope he goes to UK. They already have a gluttony of talent, adding one more superstar won't change that, but it will give them another ego to have to manage. I think he could push them over the top, to where the locker room will break down and they'll become a comedy of dysfunction. Cal will lose the team when every single player is told by an agent that he'll be the #1 pick if he can just take more shots and showcase more individual skills. As a result of this season, the one and done rule is abolished and Calipari goes on to take a job coaching the Nets (again).

At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.

I would love for that happent; but based on reports about Wiggins, he appears to be a humble and quiet kid. He actually might blend in well at UK if decided to go there because he appears to have a big ego. That said, I hope he goes to FSU inorder to make that team and the conference as a whole that much better.

[crimsonandblue]

All that has to happen for the prospective student to get out of the contract is ask the universirty to release him/her from the LOI. This just happened with Freeman at UCLA. It would look bad on the school to not release a player who wanted out, especially if there are any extenuating circumstances like the ones you mentioned above. And I don't think any team wants a player that doesn't want to be there.

To me it's win/win for the player.

Schools and coaches refuse or condition releases all the time. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/04/20/bo-ryan-transfer/index.html)

[Ichabod Drain]

Schools and coaches refuse or condition releases all the time. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/04/20/bo-ryan-transfer/index.html)

That story is about a transfer not LOI. Ryan got flamed for it too and it turned out like i said, the university couldn't take the heat so they lifted the restriction.

[Olympic Fan]

That story is about a transfer not LOI. Ryan got flamed for it too and it turned out like i said, the university couldn't take the heat so they lifted the restriction.

Schools often release players from LOI, but it's not automatic. Many, many times they don't ... or they set restrictions.

See this article from the Marquette Law Review, arguing that the LOI is an unequal contract:

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1322&context=sportslaw&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt %26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dloi%2520release%2520refused%26sou rce%3Dweb%26cd%3D9%26ved%3D0CF4QFjAI%26url%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fscholarship.law.marquette.edu%252Fcg i%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1322%2526con text%253Dsportslaw%26ei%3DXPqLUavbHIGY9QT8-4GQDw%26usg%3DAFQjCNGED4vIwFz4X3K3wqDQ9sC04eOMTw%2 6bvm%3Dbv.46340616%2Cd.eWU#search=%22loi%20release %20refused%22

I repeat, a top prospect is better off NOT signing a LOI.

[Ichabod Drain]

Schools often release players from LOI, but it's not automatic. Many, many times they don't ... or they set restrictions.

See this article from the Marquette Law Review, arguing that the LOI is an unequal contract:

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1322&context=sportslaw&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt %26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dloi%2520release%2520refused%26sou rce%3Dweb%26cd%3D9%26ved%3D0CF4QFjAI%26url%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fscholarship.law.marquette.edu%252Fcg i%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1322%2526con text%253Dsportslaw%26ei%3DXPqLUavbHIGY9QT8-4GQDw%26usg%3DAFQjCNGED4vIwFz4X3K3wqDQ9sC04eOMTw%2 6bvm%3Dbv.46340616%2Cd.eWU#search=%22loi%20release %20refused%22

I repeat, a top prospect is better off NOT signing a LOI.

I agree a top prospect is better off not signing a LOI since the instances where it benefits the player do not really apply to them. On the whole though, I just don't think it's a bad thing for your average prospective student athlete.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree a top prospect is better off not signing a LOI since the instances where it benefits the player do not really apply to them. On the whole though, I just don't think it's a bad thing for your average prospective student athlete.

It's kinda not fair to the coach or your (future) team, though, because if you're not coming they haveto go to Plan B ASAP. This may involve a conditional scholarship offer, or another kid with multiple offers who is waiting to see how things shake out. If you want to be on a team, you gotta commit.

[MarkD83]

At this late date an LOI may actually be meaningless. If Wiggins says he is going to YYY college and would show up on campus in about 2 months why sign an LOI.

[Greg_Newton]

It's kinda not fair to the coach or your (future) team, though, because if you're not coming they haveto go to Plan B ASAP. This may involve a conditional scholarship offer, or another kid with multiple offers who is waiting to see how things shake out. If you want to be on a team, you gotta commit.

Right, and it's probably not the best way to ingratiate yourself with your future teammates, either. And at some point, I'd imagine that a certain amount of selfishness and lack of concern for the team is a bit of a red flag for potential drafters.

[blev23]

Wiggins set to announce Tuesday

Rob Fulford @rfulford

Andrew Wiggins will sign Tuesday at around 12:15. He will not hold a press conference type ceremony. Just classmates, family and friends
8:32 PM - 12 May 2013
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[gofurman]

Wiggins set to announce Tuesday

Rob Fulford @rfulford

Andrew Wiggins will sign Tuesday at around 12:15. He will not hold a press conference type ceremony. Just classmates, family and friends
8:32 PM - 12 May 2013
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"He will not hold a press conference type ceremony. Just classmates, family and friends "- even if he goes to UNC or UK I have to like this guy some, he seems a Very humble guy for all the hype and probable talent. How rare that is - esp for a guy who reclassified up a class and is Still number one. man

[OldPhiKap]

"He will not hold a press conference type ceremony. Just classmates, family and friends "- even if he goes to UNC or UK I have to like this guy some, he seems a Very humble guy for all the hype and probable talent. How rare that is - esp for a guy who reclassified up a class and is Still number one. man

Agreed, the kid seems like a good guy.

[matt1]

Agreed, the kid seems like a good guy.

Yeah, he will not get surrounded in the hype. He should just be himself. Now, is there anything we can do to get him to go to FSU (or even Kansas)?

[robobevan]

Most of the recruiting guys I follow on twitter have him picking Florida st.

[NashvilleDevil]

Yeah, he will not get surrounded in the hype. He should just be himself. Now, is there anything we can do to get him to go to FSU (or even Kansas)?

Prevent Calipari from calling him if he picks Florida St or Kansas.

[licc85]

Wiggins set to announce Tuesday

Rob Fulford @rfulford

Andrew Wiggins will sign Tuesday at around 12:15. He will not hold a press conference type ceremony. Just classmates, family and friends
8:32 PM - 12 May 2013
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Wow, even Kyrie announced on ESPNU. Good for Wiggins . . . I never pictured him as an attention grabber, and I hope he stays the hell away from UK . . .

[Troublemaker]

If you take Wiggins at face value (a big assumption when dealing with a teenager) when he said that Kentucky would definitely win a championship if he joined up, that seems to eliminate UNC and Kansas to me. Because that statement suggests that, in his mind, the best choice would be Kentucky if the choice were based on basketball reasons. FSU might supply some compelling non-basketball reasons to go there, but from a basketball standpoint, he's already made up his mind that it's Kentucky. So I think I'd bet Kentucky or FSU if you had to pick two of the four teams in contention.

[Class of '94]

If you take Wiggins at face value (a big assumption when dealing with a teenager) when he said that Kentucky would definitely win a championship if he joined up, that seems to eliminate UNC and Kansas to me. Because that statement suggests that, in his mind, the best choice would be Kentucky if the choice were based on basketball reasons. FSU might supply some compelling non-basketball reasons to go there, but from a basketball standpoint, he's already made up his mind that it's Kentucky. So I think I'd bet Kentucky or FSU if you had to pick two of the four teams in contention.

No inside knowledge here; but if he stays consistent with his actions in regards to the appearance of being a kid that doesn't like being in the spotlight, I think he will choose FSU. Obviously, one could argue that by being on such a star studded KY team, he could comfortably be in the background and let his other teammates be in the spotlight; but KY brand still carries a huge spotlight; and I could see him being more comfortable at a program like FSU where he would get the exposure he needs for the NBA while not being overloaded with the media attention on him. JMO

[OldPhiKap]

As someone who does not really follow recruiting, what is Wiggins' tie to FSU?

[roywhite]

As someone who does not really follow recruiting, what is Wiggins' tie to FSU?

Legacy through both parents.

Dad Mitchell Wiggins played basketball there, and then played in NBA.
Mom Marita ran track for FSU, and then was an Olympian for Canada.

[Ichabod Drain]

As someone who does not really follow recruiting, what is Wiggins' tie to FSU?


Legacy through both parents.

Dad Mitchell Wiggins played basketball there, and then played in NBA.
Mom Marita ran track for FSU, and then was an Olympian for Canada.

Also his best friend, Xavier Rathan-Mayes, who he played with growing up in Canada and they both played at Huntington Prep together has already committed to FSU.

[OldPhiKap]

Legacy through both parents.

Dad Mitchell Wiggins played basketball there, and then played in NBA.
Mom Marita ran track for FSU, and then was an Olympian for Canada.

Thanks, I could not figure out what the Canada-Tallahassee connection was.

I would love to see him in the ACC next year, but not just down 15-501.

[Ichabod Drain]

Thanks, I could not figure out what the Canada-Tallahassee connection was.

I would love to see him in the ACC next year, but not just down 15-501.

I've thought it was FSU for a while. If it was just his parents alma mater I wouldn't think too much of it. Or if it was just the school his best friend had committed to play at I wouldn't think much of it either. But the fact that those are the same two schools just doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.

That being said I honestly have no idea where the kid's going.

[Newton_14]

Thanks, I could not figure out what the Canada-Tallahassee connection was.

I would love to see him in the ACC next year, but not just down 15-501.


Just to add further detail, it has been well known for several weeks now that the parents are pushing hard for FSU to be the choice. Dave Telep mentioned this during the High School All-Star games, stating there was some dissension in the camp over FSU and one other school. The other school most likely being Kentucky.

Like others I am hoping for FSU so we can see the kid play more often, and so the other blue blood programs do NOT have his services.

[licc85]

I'm probably the only one on this message board with this opinion, but I'd rather see him pick UNC than UK. To me, UNC is the lesser of two evils. I just hate Calipari and everything he stands for. He's just slimy. At least Roy is easy to make fun of. Besides, It's much more fun to beat UNC when they're good than when they suck. Still, FSU is still the best case scenario by a huge margin.

[Greg_Newton]

I'm probably the only one on this message board with this opinion, but I'd rather see him pick UNC than UK. To me, UNC is the lesser of two evils. I just hate Calipari and everything he stands for. He's just slimy. At least Roy is easy to make fun of. Besides, It's much more fun to beat UNC when they're good than when they suck. Still, FSU is still the best case scenario by a huge margin.

...Spoken like a man 7,608.6 miles from Chapel Hill. ;)

[licc85]

...Spoken like a man 7,608.6 miles from Chapel Hill. ;)

True . . . but I did grow up in Durham. So I'm not an alien to the rivalry. Actually, my Dad is a Duke alum, and my mom is a UNC alum, so I may have as much perspective on it as anyone. Also, I spent about 18 years of my life living in Lexington, KY as a Duke fan. Everyone from octogenarians to unborn babies in Lexington hate Duke. So, that may have something to do with it.

[licc85]

Regardless, I have a feeling it's 50/50 between Kansas and FSU, and I hope I'm right.

[moonpie23]

is it not going to be televised?

[Duvall]

is it not going to be televised?

No. Just family, classmates, and one local reporter.

[moonpie23]

No. Just family, classmates, and one local reporter.

so, again, Twitter will be the absolute KING of sports reporting (or anything else)....wow..


i guess SI, NYT, POST, CNN, FOX blah blah blah can just sit back, watch their iphones and THEN report....



the times they are a changing

[MCFinARL]

No. Just family, classmates, and one local reporter.

For this reason alone, I will be a fan of Wiggins (though probably not of his team) wherever he goes.

[moonpie23]

For this reason alone, I will be a fan of Wiggins (though probably not of his team) wherever he goes.

i'm down with that....'cept for that "wherever he goes" part............he goes to unc and i'm off his "fan" list......

[JasonEvans]

It is Kansas. Color me shocked.

I have to wonder if this was some kind of compromise choice -- mom and Dad wanted FSU, he wanted Kentucky and they went to a place they could each be happy. KU is extremely young next season, and not as talented as the youngsters at Kentucky. Wiggins will get a chance to shine, that is for sure.

-Jason "Self's incredible run of winning the B12 every year was in jeopardy... maybe not anymore!" Evans

[Billy Dat]

The Champions Classic should be a doozy.

[simmias]

It is Kansas. Color me shocked.
Sad for FSU, elated it's not UNC or UK.

The meltdown has already begun on IC.

[jacone21]

I can live with that. 9F

[wilko]

Seems like the wrong day to pull in Tarik Black...

[FerryFor50]

Also makes sense because he can be closer to his brother, who plays for Wichita St

[moonpie23]

congrats jayhawks..........this will make the unc/ku matchup pretty awesome AGAIN next march...


lol

[luburch]

So we now have a Parker/Wiggins showdown.

[JasonEvans]

A local reporter in West Virginia says the final choice was between Kansas and FSU.

The Nov 12th game between Duke and Kansas in Chicago is going to get HUGE press!

-Jason "apparently, the KU staff was shocked as they had not had much contact with Wiggins lately" Evans

[UrinalCake]

Makes sense - he had said he didn't like the spotlight, and even though Kansas is a premier program, it won't carry the same pressure as UK would have. He'll get to be the leader and star of the team while playing for an excellent coach. And they've got plenty of experience sending guys to the NBA (which FSU doesn't).

[TexHawk]

It is Kansas. Color me shocked.

I have to wonder if this was some kind of compromise choice -- mom and Dad wanted FSU, he wanted Kentucky and they went to a place they could each be happy. KU is extremely young next season, and not as talented as the youngsters at Kentucky. Wiggins will get a chance to shine, that is for sure.

-Jason "Self's incredible run of winning the B12 every year was in jeopardy... maybe not anymore!" Evans

Of course they aren't as talented as Kentucky, I don't think any recruiting class in history outside of the Fab 5 can say that. But KU's class now has the #1 ranked center (Joel Embiid), #1 SF (Wiggins), and the #2 SG (Wayne Selden). Throw in the #6 SF (Brannen Greene), plus Connor Frankamp (#46 overall) and Frank Mason (#76) at PG, and that's pretty phenomenal any other year.

Those first three will likely start with Perry Ellis and Naadir Tharpe (assuming no Black). Point guard is still a major problem, and the KU non-con schedule is scary tough this year. Not sure where to predict them. Duke takes the November game fairly easily, IMO, but the team will get stronger and be in the conversation for a top seed by March.

[slower]

Duke takes the November game fairly easily, IMO...

Complete and utter speculation on your part.

Joel Embiid is a monster, as is Wiggins, and Selden has been a highly-regarded recruit for a while.

Judging by your name, I guess you already know these things. But if there's anything that Duke fans never seem to learn, it's that predicting "easy" victories is foolish.

[FerryFor50]

Complete and utter speculation on your part.

Joel Embiid is a monster, as is Wiggins, and Selden has been a highly-regarded recruit for a while.

Judging by your name, I guess you already know these things. But if there's anything that Duke fans never seem to learn, it's that predicting "easy" victories is foolish.

Isn't predicting any result speculation? :)

[Duvall]

Complete and utter speculation on your part.

Joel Embiid is a monster, as is Wiggins, and Selden has been a highly-regarded recruit for a while.

Freshman, all.

[slower]

Isn't predicting any result speculation? :)

Indeed! :p

[CDu]

Of course they aren't as talented as Kentucky, I don't think any recruiting class in history outside of the Fab 5 can say that. But KU's class now has the #1 ranked center (Joel Embiid), #1 SF (Wiggins), and the #2 SG (Wayne Selden). Throw in the #6 SF (Brannen Greene), plus Connor Frankamp (#46 overall) and Frank Mason (#76) at PG, and that's pretty phenomenal any other year.

Those first three will likely start with Perry Ellis and Naadir Tharpe (assuming no Black). Point guard is still a major problem, and the KU non-con schedule is scary tough this year. Not sure where to predict them. Duke takes the November game fairly easily, IMO, but the team will get stronger and be in the conversation for a top seed by March.

I'd say PG and C are still a concern, though I agree that PG is definitely the bigger concern. Embiid is a nice prospect for sure, but he's a bit skinny and pretty raw. Maybe they'll just ask him to run, rebound, and block shots, but that puts a lot of pressure on Ellis to carry the interior scoring load. The PG situation is where the real issues lie. You basically have only Tharpe and some decent-but-not-special freshmen (i.e., system guys who may be good as juniors/seniors but probably not next year).

I also have some questions about perimeter shooting. Selden isn't known for his shooting, and Wiggins is just an okay shooter. Tharpe has generally been a terrible shooter at KU. Greene is reportedly quite the shooter, and Frankamp isn't terrible at it. But is that enough?

That being said, I do think that Wiggins (along with Selden, Embiid, and Greene) puts Kansas in the conversation. They are unquestionably the favorites in the Big-12 (again), which will keep them in the hunt for a #1 seed. If we get Tarik Black, I think Duke is better (and will remain better all season). If we don't get Black (and if you guys DO get Black), then I'd say you'll be the better team by season's end. If neither of us gets Black, then I agree with your assessment (Duke better early, undetermined in March).

Edit: so I forgot that Kansas also has Landen Lucas, who redshirted this year. He could play a factor inside for sure, and gives KU some additional depth at C.

[TexHawk]

Complete and utter speculation on your part.

Joel Embiid is a monster, as is Wiggins, and Selden has been a highly-regarded recruit for a while.

Judging by your name, I guess you already know these things. But if there's anything that Duke fans never seem to learn, it's that predicting "easy" victories is foolish.

Of course it is, but I've seen enough Bill Self coached teams play in November with no understanding of the offense or defense that it's not hard for me to predict an ugly performance. A freshman class that went on to win a national championship in 2008 could not dribble the ball over halfcourt in 2005 in Maui. Those early season games are teaching moments, and many turn into street ball most of the time. Of course, with Wiggins on the team, that might not be a horrible strategy and they may actually do well against Duke. (Though I will be surprised if that happens.)

[JasonEvans]

I am of the belief that the single hardest thing for freshmen to learn in college ball is defense, especially playing team defense. The kids KU have coming in are wonderful talents, especially at the offensive end. But I think the team will really struggle on D for a while. By Feb or so, they will likely get it together and will be a major threat in post-season tournaments.

Of course, every so often you find a truly sublime freshman defender like Kidd-Gilchrist and Davis were for Kentucky, but that is really rare.

-Jason "I am glad we get Kansas early in the season... don't want them late!" Evans

[FerryFor50]

I am of the belief that the single hardest thing for freshmen to learn in college ball is defense, especially playing team defense. The kids KU have coming in are wonderful talents, especially at the offensive end. But I think the team will really struggle on D for a while. By Feb or so, they will likely get it together and will be a major threat in post-season tournaments.

Of course, every so often you find a truly sublime freshman defender like Kidd-Gilchrist and Davis were for Kentucky, but that is really rare.

-Jason "I am glad we get Kansas early in the season... don't want them late!" Evans

From what I've seen of Wiggins, his defense could approach that of MKG.

[Rich]

Jason "I am glad we get Kansas early in the season... don't want them late!" Evans

I want them early AND late because if we get them late there's a good chance that means it's deep into the tournament.

[TexHawk]

I'd say PG and C are still a concern, though I agree that PG is definitely the bigger concern. Embiid is a nice prospect for sure, but he's a bit skinny and pretty raw. Maybe they'll just ask him to run, rebound, and block shots, but that puts a lot of pressure on Ellis to carry the interior scoring load. The PG situation is where the real issues lie. You basically have only Tharpe and some decent-but-not-special freshmen (i.e., system guys who may be good as juniors/seniors but probably not next year).

I also have some questions about perimeter shooting. Selden isn't known for his shooting, and Wiggins is just an okay shooter. Tharpe has generally been a terrible shooter at KU. Greene is reportedly quite the shooter, and Frankamp isn't terrible at it. But is that enough?

That being said, I do think that Wiggins (along with Selden, Embiid, and Greene) puts Kansas in the conversation. They are unquestionably the favorites in the Big-12 (again), which will keep them in the hunt for a #1 seed. If we get Tarik Black, I think Duke is better (and will remain better all season). If we don't get Black (and if you guys DO get Black), then I'd say you'll be the better team by season's end. If neither of us gets Black, then I agree with your assessment (Duke better early, undetermined in March).
Agreed on all. Regarding PG, you will probably hear KU fans rationalize it by saying that Selden and Wiggins will handle the ball more than those positions have in the past. That may turn out to be true, but it's a bigger concern on the defensive end IMO. Embiid will block a lot of shots, but will also be made to look silly by PGs who drive by Tharpe and dish around him.

There IS fantastic perimeter shooting with Frankamp, Greene, and Andrew White (probably 8th in the rotation now), but those guys won't be getting a ton of minutes.

Very hard to predict Final Fours or anything like that. That 2005 team turned things around after Christmas and won the Big 12 title and tournament... before losing to Bradley in the first round. There will be very little experience on the floor in 2013-14, which is always scary.

[JasonEvans]

ESPN has updated their pre-season Top 25 (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9273429/an-updated-look-top-25-2013-14-season-ncaa-men-college-basketball), elevating Kansas all the way from the late-teens to #5. The move bumps Duke down to #6 (like it matters).

Also worth noting, I would like to personally thank the Wiggins family for not picking Kentucky as I was sick of seeing them win darn near every single recruiting battle they entered. Thanks for not even having them in the top 2!

-Jason "suck on that, Calipari!" Evans

[CDu]

Agreed on all. Regarding PG, you will probably hear KU fans rationalize it by saying that Selden and Wiggins will handle the ball more than those positions have in the past. That may turn out to be true, but it's a bigger concern on the defensive end IMO. Embiid will block a lot of shots, but will also be made to look silly by PGs who drive by Tharpe and dish around him.

There IS fantastic perimeter shooting with Frankamp, Greene, and Andrew White (probably 8th in the rotation now), but those guys won't be getting a ton of minutes.

Yeah, I should have caveated the shooting comment with "among the major minutes guys." Tharpe, Selden, and Wiggins aren't great shooters, but their backups all are. It's just a question of how much time those backups will actually get.


Very hard to predict Final Fours or anything like that. That 2005 team turned things around after Christmas and won the Big 12 title and tournament... before losing to Bradley in the first round. There will be very little experience on the floor in 2013-14, which is always scary.

I hear you on the inexperience concern. You just never know how young players will react to tournament pressure, or to playing against more physically mature players. The good thing for KU is that their main freshman are all fairly physically mature, so they shouldn't be overwhelmed in that regard. The question is whether they adjust to not being so much more physically dominant at the college level (an issue that Poythress struggled with at UK last year, for example).

All in all, I think it's a fantastic offseason for KU. Yes, you lose a ton of experience, leadership, and talent from last year's team. But you have reloaded with tons of size, athleticism, and potential. If Self can get everyone on the same page, then you should absolutely be right there in the discussion with the other big boys.

[miramar]

ESPN has updated their pre-season Top 25 (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9273429/an-updated-look-top-25-2013-14-season-ncaa-men-college-basketball), elevating Kansas all the way from the late-teens to #5. The move bumps Duke down to #6 (like it matters).

Also worth noting, I would like to personally thank the Wiggins family for not picking Kentucky as I was sick of seeing them win darn near every single recruiting battle they entered. Thanks for not even having them in the top 2!

-Jason "suck on that, Calipari!" Evans

It's also nice to see Wiggins pass up UNC.

[Troublemaker]

From what I've seen of Wiggins, his defense could approach that of MKG.

And he has the defensive potential to far exceed MKG even. I've never seen a prospect block fadeaways from other 5-star recruits with such ease. The NBA is a league full of freaks, but even then, a leaper like Wiggins comes along once a decade.

Very happy he didn't end up with UNC or UK.

[FerryFor50]

And he has the defensive potential to far exceed MKG even. I've never seen a prospect block fadeaways from other 5-star recruits with such ease. The NBA is a league full of freaks, but even then, a leaper like Wiggins comes along once a decade.

Very happy he didn't end up with UNC or UK.

Are you saying it's not normal for me to get my fadeaway blocked so often? :p

[Rich]

A local reporter in West Virginia says the final choice was between Kansas and FSU.

The Nov 12th game between Duke and Kansas in Chicago is going to get HUGE press!

-Jason "apparently, the KU staff was shocked as they had not had much contact with Wiggins lately" Evans

Found this on Facebook already...

3377

[FerryFor50]

And, of course, the Twit-riol...

http://extramustard.si.com/2013/05/14/andrew-wiggins-decides-on-kansas-opposing-fans-decide-he-should-blow-his-acl/?sct=hp_t2_a3&eref=sihp

[Henderson]

ABC -- Anybody but Carolina. I'm a happy guy. Roy got stuffed, and that's enough to make me smile.

[OldPhiKap]

Good luck to the young man, it looks like he made a good decision for himself and he seems to have the right attitude best I can tell.

Roy, you've got to make chicken salad with whats ya gotz.

[Atlanta Duke]

ESPN has updated their pre-season Top 25 (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9273429/an-updated-look-top-25-2013-14-season-ncaa-men-college-basketball), elevating Kansas all the way from the late-teens to #5. The move bumps Duke down to #6 (like it matters).

Duke also has been moved down from #2 to #3 in the crucial ranking (based upon a "proprietary algorithm":D) of recruiting classes for 2013


http://247sports.com/Season/2013-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

[crimsonandblue]

Duke also has been moved down from #2 to #3 in the crucial ranking (based upon a "proprietary algorithm":D) of recruiting classes for 2013


http://247sports.com/Season/2013-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

Res Ipsa Chicago Butt-Kicking.

Your team will likely be too humiliated to even appear, due to Kansas's higher recruiting rankings.

[FerryFor50]

Res Ipsa Chicago Butt-Kicking.

Your team will likely be too humiliated to even appear, due to Kansas's higher recruiting rankings.

Even more hilarious is that NCSU is ranked ahead of UNC.

[blueduke59]

IC is on fire. The "most delusional fan base on earth" trophy still tucked safely away in the Nose Dome

[crimsonandblue]

Even more hilarious is that NCSU is ranked ahead of UNC.

I'd heard UNC was taking the season off.

From classes.

[blueduke59]

UNC has taken more than a decade off from classes

[moonpie23]

i love those threads.......

"Unc didn't really want/need him anyway"

"he couldn't wouldn't learn Roy's system"

"he's not really that good"

[miramar]

i love those threads.......

"Unc didn't really want/need him anyway"

"he couldn't wouldn't learn Roy's system"

"he's not really that good"

Has anyone written, "No big, he would have just been another major disappointment, just like the last time we got the top rated recruit but then it turned out that the school on the other side of 15-501 had someone better"?

Let's hope that history repeats itself and that Duke will surprise everyone with the top freshman in the country, although without the health issues.

[killerleft]

IC is on fire. The "most delusional fan base on earth" trophy still tucked safely away in the Nose Dome

Some guy called The Bomber over at IC made a great post, though: "Nasssttyyy Wigginses. Hates them we does!"

Calling Jason Evans: The Bomber, if IC counts can be believed, has an astounding 47001 posts to his credit!

[aheel4ever]

IC is on fire. The "most delusional fan base on earth" trophy still tucked safely away in the Nose Dome

I've seen IC "on fire" plenty of times, but to say it is over this is a bit of a stretch.

[JasonEvans]

Calling Jason Evans: The Bomber, if IC counts can be believed, has an astounding 47001 posts to his credit!

I have too much time on my hands. He clearly has 4.7 times too much time on his hands ;)

-Jason "does that even make sense?" Evans

[Kedsy]

I've seen IC "on fire" plenty of times, but to say it is over this is a bit of a stretch.

I agree. I went over there expecting entertainment, but it really didn't seem much (if any) worse than it'd be here if we lost a big recruit.

[Rich]

I have too much time on my hands. He clearly has 4.7 times too much time on his hands ;)

-Jason "does that even make sense?" Evans

I heard a rumor that The Bomber engages in "robo-posting." At least all of JE's posts are manual. :D

[Henderson]

I liked the IC posts along this line, and there were quite a few: "It's good he's not coming; Leslie MacDonald deserves to start." Fair point. Why would you want the best player in the 2013 class when you have a guard who missed games last year for a knee injury, more for a suspension, and who averages 8 points a game already?

Remember that in January Roy sat Mr. MacDonald for three conference games for not fulfilling his obligations as a student-athlete. Apparently no one in the AD's office explained that the only such obligation is to register for classes. I've been assuming since his suspension that LMac forgot to do that.

[Duvall]

I have too much time on my hands. He clearly has 4.7 times too much time on his hands ;)

-Jason "does that even make sense?" Evans

Of course, no one knows what DBR post counts would be if this weren't the third or fourth iteration of the boards.

[OldPhiKap]

I liked the IC posts along this line, and there were quite a few: "It's good he's not coming; Leslie MacDonald deserves to start."

That's kind of what I saw as well. And, as a fifth year senior (IIRC), MacDonald could be a solid player for them and should know the system very well. Not as much upside as Wiggins, but most of Wiggins' upside is going to be shown in the league after his cup of coffee in Kansas.

If he is healthy, I would not dismiss MacDonald out of hand.

I also saw a lot of "oh great, we lost to Kansas again." That did make me chuckle. And it seems that Roy's still-evident love for Kansas is still a sore subject on the Hill.

[FerryFor50]

I also saw a lot of "oh great, we lost to Kansas again." That did make me chuckle. And it seems that Roy's still-evident love for Kansas is still a sore subject on the Hill.

I was always under the impression that State fans had cornered the market on self-deprecation...

[Duvall]

That's kind of what I saw as well. And, as a fifth year senior (IIRC), MacDonald could be a solid player for them and should know the system very well. Not as much upside as Wiggins, but most of Wiggins' upside is going to be shown in the league after his cup of coffee in Kansas.

If he is healthy, I would not dismiss MacDonald out of hand.

Shouldn't we? McDonald was pretty much the same player after his injury redshirt that he was before - a high-30's 3FG% shooter with no other skills of note. That's fine for a rotation player, but not what you want when you are desperately seeking a second or third option on offense.

[FerryFor50]

Shouldn't we? McDonald was pretty much the same player after his injury redshirt that he was before - a high-30's 3FG% shooter with no other skills of note. That's fine for a rotation player, but not what you want when you are desperately seeking a second or third option on offense.

SHHH

You know Roy reads these boards! If you keep telling him how average McDonald is, he might not play him enough!

We WANT McDonald to play!

[Duvall]

SHHH

You know Roy reads these boards! If you keep telling him how average McDonald is, he might not play him enough!

We WANT McDonald to play!

It's not like he has a choice. What are the options - Nate Britt? Luke Davis? Move Hairston to guard and play Tokoto at small forward?

There are just a lot of unappealing options on UNC's 2013-2014 roster.

[brevity]

And it seems that Roy's still-evident love for Kansas is still a sore subject on the Hill.

Well, they lost to Kansas yesterday, which means Ol' Roy should be wearing a Wiggins sticker tomorrow.

P.S. "On the Hill." Sounds political. I guess they do quite a bit of Wigging out in both places.

[miramar]

I never bought it, but now the IC folks must be worried, per the N&O:


Williams has won his share of high-profile recruitments, but the Tar Heels’ past three classes haven’t included many top-10 prospects. According to ESPN.com’s rankings, UNC has signed just one top-10 prospect – forward James Michael McAdoo, who will return for his junior season – during the past three classes.

During the same span, six schools – Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, Florida, Kansas and Baylor – have signed multiple top-10 prospects, according to ESPN.com. Kentucky, which used a freshmen-dominated lineup to win the national championship in 2012, signed five top-10 prospects in the class of 2013 alone.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/05/14/2892674/what-andrew-wiggins-decision-means.html#storylink=cpy

[Duvall]

I never bought it, but now the IC folks must be worried, per the N&O:


Williams has won his share of high-profile recruitments, but the Tar Heels’ past three classes haven’t included many top-10 prospects. According to ESPN.com’s rankings, UNC has signed just one top-10 prospect – forward James Michael McAdoo, who will return for his junior season – during the past three classes.

During the same span, six schools – Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, Florida, Kansas and Baylor – have signed multiple top-10 prospects, according to ESPN.com. Kentucky, which used a freshmen-dominated lineup to win the national championship in 2012, signed five top-10 prospects in the class of 2013 alone.

To be fair, for most of those schools, "multiple" means two. So UNC isn't lagging as much as the N&O would like to suggest.

[licc85]

More evidence that the most delusional fanbase in sports is the "BBN":

http://kentsterling.com/2013/05/14/kentucky-fans-prove-classless-in-attacking-andrew-wiggins-and-confused-in-responding/

Sure, it's Twitter, but man those are some harsh tweets.

[simmias]

To be fair, for most of those schools, "multiple" means two. So UNC isn't lagging as much as the N&O would like to suggest.
Plus their 2014 class will be pretty damn good. They already have two top-15 recruits, and I'll be shocked if they don't add a top-ten in Rashad Vaughn.

[UrinalCake]

Plus their 2014 class will be pretty damn good. They already have two top-15 recruits, and I'll be shocked if they don't add a top-ten in Rashad Vaughn.

I kind of like where this trajectory is going:

2013-2014: Duke wins title. UNC flounders in NIT. Goes 0-3 against Duke and loses by a combined 100 points.
2014-2015: UNC brings in three highly-ranked recruits. Fans get their hopes up. Duke still better, wins another title.

So we'll get to enjoy both sides - beating them when they're awful and beating them when they're good 8-)