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View Full Version : Mike Rice - Rutgers Coach - Abusive does not do this justice...



Billy Dat
04-02-2013, 03:32 PM
What a disgrace...

"Video shows Mike Rice's ire"
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9125796/practice-video-shows-rutgers-basketball-coach-mike-rice-berated-pushed-used-slurs-players

Duvall
04-02-2013, 03:36 PM
What a disgrace...

"Video shows Mike Rice's ire"
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9125796/practice-video-shows-rutgers-basketball-coach-mike-rice-berated-pushed-used-slurs-players

Will be interesting to see if ESPN asks Matt Doherty to comment on this story.

jv001
04-02-2013, 03:37 PM
Makes Bob Knight look like a choir boy. GoDuke!

weezie
04-02-2013, 03:53 PM
He's got googly, freaky eyes. Acts like he's on crack!
I'll bet he cries during his next interview.

dukeofcalabash
04-02-2013, 03:56 PM
Outside of the military, there is no place for this type of "training". Get rid of the jerk now or it will just get worse.

ScreechTDX1847
04-02-2013, 04:03 PM
Outside of the military, there is no place for this type of "training". Get rid of the jerk now or it will just get worse.

At least this Outside the Lines report should effectively end his head coaching career.

rsvman
04-02-2013, 04:06 PM
Wow. Just wow.


Nice understanding of motivational principles, too. People generally perform at their best when they're constantly ridiculed and made to feel like idiots. Or not.

Billy Dat
04-02-2013, 04:14 PM
What's up with these Rutgers coaches? Remember Kevin Bannon and the naked wind sprints?

"Appeals Panel Allows Suit Over Nude Drill at Rutgers"
7/5/01
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/sports/college-basketball-appeals-panel-allows-suit-over-nude-drill-at-rutgers.html?ref=kevin_bannon

subzero02
04-02-2013, 04:31 PM
What's up with these Rutgers coaches? Remember Kevin Bannon and the naked wind sprints?

"Appeals Panel Allows Suit Over Nude Drill at Rutgers"
7/5/01
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/sports/college-basketball-appeals-panel-allows-suit-over-nude-drill-at-rutgers.html?ref=kevin_bannon

Yep, that led to us getting Dahntay Jones.

Reisen
04-02-2013, 04:43 PM
How long has the Rutgers AD been in place? He needs to go.

Billy Dat
04-02-2013, 05:08 PM
This is interesting...do we think this kind of behavior is common?

@MattNorlander
Yikes. RT @BSnowScout: Just had a head coach call me: "Video coordinators all over the country are being instructed to burn practice tapes"

Obviously, we've seen the tapes of Bob Knight putting his hands on players, and we know that he was abusive via "A Season on the Brink"...but do we think Basketball Coaches regularly bump and hit players in this manner? Throw balls at them like this? Maybe we don't know, but I'd be interested in everyone's opinions.

Watching that video, I assume that it's over the line...but is it an outlier?

g-money
04-02-2013, 05:17 PM
How long has the Rutgers AD been in place? He needs to go.

Wow...that is just stunning. What a jerk!!!

Wander
04-02-2013, 05:50 PM
Good thing he actually got results out of this, and not just a string of seasons where Rutgers doesn't even make the NIT...

BigWayne
04-02-2013, 06:19 PM
If this was something that happened at a company and the players were employees, there would be lawsuits all over the place. That it happened at a university full of victim agenda advocates, I can't believe the AD and coach will last another day on campus. Remember the Don Imus incident with the Rutger's Women's BB team? The most remarkable thing is the video of the AD defending not firing the guy.

Orange&BlackSheep
04-02-2013, 10:34 PM
If this was something that happened at a company and the players were employees, there would be lawsuits all over the place. That it happened at a university full of victim agenda advocates, I can't believe the AD and coach will last another day on campus. Remember the Don Imus incident with the Rutger's Women's BB team? The most remarkable thing is the video of the AD defending not firing the guy.

And the dude is clinically insane. I literally could not believe an adult could behave that way. I don't have enough hyperbole in me to describe his histrionics throughout the game.

O&BS

Ichabod Drain
04-03-2013, 10:22 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHH... SEE YA!

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9128825/rutgers-scarlet-knights-fire-coach-mike-rice-wake-video-scandal

Blue in the Face
04-03-2013, 10:32 AM
WFAN here in NY just reported that Eric Murdock, former Rutgers staff member, who was fired last summer, and who provided those tapes to ESPN, had first tried to blackmail Rutgers for $1MM to not release the tapes. What a wonderful bunch of people.

Ichabod Drain
04-03-2013, 10:36 AM
WFAN here in NY just reported that Eric Murdock, former Rutgers staff member, who was fired last summer, and who provided those tapes to ESPN, had first tried to blackmail Rutgers for $1MM to not release the tapes. What a wonderful bunch of people.

I believe he is suing Rutgers for wrongful termination. It should be interesting to see how that plays out. If he really did try to blackmail the University, he had to know it would undoubtedly come up during the lawsuit.

DukeAlumBS
04-03-2013, 10:53 AM
I can agree, not in the military will you see physical abuse. Vocal or verbal in the service, is used at certain settings and certain branches. This man is sick and needs to take his meds before he goes to work. I am sure he is on a few. What is with Rutgers my friends?
That is sad, have a nice day.
Jimmy

drcharl
04-03-2013, 11:07 AM
Outside of the military, there is no place for this type of "training". Get rid of the jerk now or it will just get worse.

As a Vet experienced a lot of verbal abuse in basic training but never was pushed or shoved or had something thrown at me by the trainers. They would get in your face but were really careful not to step over the line into the physical realm.

Bluedog
04-03-2013, 11:21 AM
Rutgers AD and President viewed the tapes back in November and decided to simply suspend him for 3 days and fine him $50k. Exact same tapes are now released to the public and they feel the pressure mounting from outside and thus decide to fire him. What were they thinking back in November?!? It's simply a case of public perception that dictated the decision rather than a true concern for the student-athletes; doesn't make me have much faith in the AD.

brevity
04-03-2013, 11:34 AM
What were they thinking back in November?!?

They might have been thinking, "How are we going to explain a high-profile firing at the beginning of the regular season based on low-profile information?" It was not the right decision back then, but it seemed like the easiest one, and maybe even a sensible one. Let the guy know he's been punished, and give him a chance to get his act together. Ultimately it backfired with the public, but there is something to appeasing the fraternity of coaches.

So... another Big Ten coaching opportunity. Excitement. Those phones at Rutgers and Minnesota just won't stop ringing.

Reilly
04-03-2013, 11:48 AM
The fired coach's dad has an interesting wikipedia entry ... apparently Bill Walton (who I find un-listenable) finds the dad un-listenable on Trail Blazers broadcasts.

Caught a bit of John Feinstein's radio show this morning ... he mentioned the recent death of Jack Pardee (Bears, Redskins, Oilers, U of H coach) ... Pardee was one of Bear Bryant's "Junction Boys" at Texas A&M ... Feinstein was asking what would've happened if there had been video of that summer ...

CameronBornAndBred
04-03-2013, 02:02 PM
Finally fired.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9128825/rutgers-scarlet-knights-fire-coach-mike-rice-wake-video-scandal

Why not the AD too?


"I am responsible for the decision to attempt a rehabilitation of Coach Rice," Pernetti said. "Dismissal and corrective action were debated in December, and I thought it was in the best interest of everyone to rehabilitate, but I was wrong. Moving forward, I will work to regain the trust of the Rutgers community." He could have added "And hope I keep my job".

JasonEvans
04-03-2013, 02:20 PM
WFAN here in NY just reported that Eric Murdock, former Rutgers staff member, who was fired last summer, and who provided those tapes to ESPN, had first tried to blackmail Rutgers for $1MM to not release the tapes. What a wonderful bunch of people.

I cannot decide if Murdock is a hero in all this, even if he had ulterior motives. Here is an article (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/03/mike-rice-firing-how-eric-murdocks-departure-set-off-chain-reaction/) that talks a bit about Murdock's role:


In the end, it’s the reaction to the video that got Rice fired and, in all likelihood, is going to get Rutgers AD Tim Pernetti fired.

But the root cause for the firing?

Allowing Murdock to walk away angry.

Because if Murdock leaves the Rutgers happy, or if he is still employed by the university, Rice is still firing basketballs at his players.

Also worth noting that ESPN now says the Rutgers president was not shown the video back in November. He only saw the video this week. That would seem to somewhat insulate him against being fired. I think the AD is going to be ousted through.

-Jason "for the record Eric Murdock earned about $12 mil in his NBA career" Evans

miramar
04-03-2013, 02:30 PM
And the dude is clinically insane. I literally could not believe an adult could behave that way. I don't have enough hyperbole in me to describe his histrionics throughout the game.

O&BS

Perhaps coaches would tone down the insanity if announcers like Dick Vitale, who tend to applaud this behavior because it shows that "he wants to win so badly," would tell the truth: these guys are psychos and no young person should have to put up with this nonsense. Sorry, Dick, but fiery is not a good quality for people who work with college students.

I just hope that this serves as a teachable moment for university administrators, but unfortunately this kind of coach usually ends up getting a better job and a raise.

For example, Frank Martin, who makes about $2 million a year. Fortunately, South Carolina left the ACC a long time ago, so we don't have to deal with him:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/02/15/frank-martin-south-carolina-gamecocks-press-conference-lsu-tigers/1921993/

brevity
04-03-2013, 03:01 PM
Perhaps coaches would tone down the insanity if announcers like Dick Vitale, who tend to applaud this behavior because it shows that "he wants to win so badly," would tell the truth: these guys are psychos and no young person should have to put up with this nonsense. Sorry, Dick, but fiery is not a good quality for people who work with college students.

THIS is the discussion we should be having. Let Rutgers clean house without our suggestions.

When I first heard the story (and saw Mike Rice's face), I started thinking about the default demeanors of college basketball coaches, the fiery ones versus the reserved ones. (Both are celebrated, and not just by Dick Vitale.) They can't all be Brad Stevens, and now I wonder if Brad Stevens is always like Brad Stevens. He'd be the luckiest coach in the world if everyone immediately bought into his system at Butler, or if every conflict could be resolved by delegating a more agitated assistant coach. I have to believe that he's not that lucky, and that he has to lose his temper every now and then, in practice or whatever.

My point is this: basketball players fresh out of all kinds of high schools can be a crapshoot in terms of disciplinary needs. There has to be firm rules in place and the personal intensity of the coaching staff to back up those rules. It's hard to imagine Brad Stevens channeling his inner Frank Martin, but it probably happens over the course of a long season.

The model, if there is one, is to use discipline but not excessive force in the privacy of practice, and remain mostly even-tempered in the publicity of gametime. Mike Rice violated the former. Lots of coaches violate the latter. Don't know if they amount to psychos, but I'd certainly think twice if I was a parent of a recruit.

sagegrouse
04-03-2013, 03:14 PM
...What would happen today to the Charleston city employee (surely a teenager) who would chase us 7YO's around the East Bay playground and throw medicine balls at our legs? That was a long, long time ago, but I still remember the terror.

sagegrouse

rsvman
04-03-2013, 03:56 PM
...
My point is this: basketball players fresh out of all kinds of high schools can be a crapshoot in terms of disciplinary needs. There has to be firm rules in place and the personal intensity of the coaching staff to back up those rules. It's hard to imagine Brad Stevens channeling his inner Frank Martin, but it probably happens over the course of a long season.

The model, if there is one, is to use discipline but not excessive force in the privacy of practice, and remain mostly even-tempered in the publicity of gametime. ....

Over the years, I've changed my opinion about this sort of thing. There is actually a lot of psychology literature looking at how people are most likely to be motivated. Use of the word "discipline" in this setting, and thinking in that fashion is, in my opinion, wrong-headed at the outset and highly unlikely to yield the results that are desired.

Humans (and all trainable animals, for that matter) are motivated by positive rewards for desired behavior much more than they are motivated by negative responses to unwanted behavior. So, at least in theory, a coach would be more likely to get the players to do what he wants by praising the ones who do it properly (or, more specifically, praising anybody whenever they do it properly) rather than berating them when they screw up.

I don't think psychological literature filters down to most of the coaches, but perhaps it should.

Atlanta Duke
04-04-2013, 08:27 AM
Did not see this coming - Mike Rice as the real victim

Chipper Jones ✔ @RealCJ10

I got cursed at and called names by a ton of people growing up. Were they fired? Nope! Do I care? Nope! What's the big deal? Toughen up!

Yeah, been hit w/ bball equipment on purpose, been dragged around a football field by my facemask and ran suicides til I puked! I ain't mad.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/04/03/chipper-jones-tells-rutgers-players-to-toughen-up/2050429/


Fox News host Eric Bolling had this to say:

“We’re in the midst of political correctness crushing our ability to teach kids, to discipline kids ...

Are we better off as a nation now with all the P.C. and with all the wimpifying, wussificating and basically making men Chihuahuas?”

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/no-comment-necessary-the-wussification-of-american-men/

rsvman
04-04-2013, 09:14 AM
Did not see this coming - Mike Rice as the real victim

Chipper Jones ✔ @RealCJ10

I got cursed at and called names by a ton of people growing up. Were they fired? Nope! Do I care? Nope! What's the big deal? Toughen up!

Yeah, been hit w/ bball equipment on purpose, been dragged around a football field by my facemask and ran suicides til I puked! I ain't mad.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/04/03/chipper-jones-tells-rutgers-players-to-toughen-up/2050429/


Fox News host Eric Bolling had this to say:

“We’re in the midst of political correctness crushing our ability to teach kids, to discipline kids ...

Are we better off as a nation now with all the P.C. and with all the wimpifying, wussificating and basically making men Chihuahuas?”

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/no-comment-necessary-the-wussification-of-american-men/

There's no cure for stupid.

loran16
04-04-2013, 09:22 AM
Which of course would make sense - Hurley having success at Wagner and the obvious connections to Jersey. That said, I don't see Hurley leaving RI with just one year under his belt (job far from done) and I think he could do better than Rutgers, even if the NJ connection might be appealing.

Article here: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/hurley_only_option_to_save_ru_hoops_sWsX1lAKZMqDvE 1deDXVUP

hillsborodevil
04-04-2013, 10:36 AM
Why isn't the local DA's Office pressing charges for assault?

Reilly
04-04-2013, 10:37 AM
There's no cure for stupid.

Yeah, probably not a good idea to look to Chipper Jones on questions of what's right and what's wrong to do.

Tom B.
04-04-2013, 11:41 AM
Perhaps coaches would tone down the insanity if announcers like Dick Vitale, who tend to applaud this behavior because it shows that "he wants to win so badly," would tell the truth: these guys are psychos and no young person should have to put up with this nonsense. Sorry, Dick, but fiery is not a good quality for people who work with college students.



Depends on your definition of "fiery." Shaka Smart could be described as "fiery" -- or at the very least, "intense" and "animated" -- but all reports thus far seem to indicate that he's a great guy and his players love playing for him.

The difference is that guys like him seems to be able to channel all that energy and intensity in a positive direction, so their players respond positively. I had a coach like that in high school. Big guy with a big booming voice, very animated. He yelled, he wasn't above using profanity, and he'd get in your face sometimes -- but he (like most successful coaches, I'd imagine) knew and respected the line between challenging and motivating his players on one hand, and abusing them on the other, and the results spoke for themselves. He took over between my junior and senior year -- our team the previous season had been more talented, but had a losing record. We lost some good players to graduation, but my senior year we were more cohesive and a better team, and we finished with a winning record. He went on to coach my school's varsity team for another 16 years and went to six state championship games, winning three.

DukeAlumBS
04-04-2013, 12:11 PM
As I stated before, this man did not take his medications. There is no reason to hire or engage this type of personality. It is just that, a mental health disorder. He should have been let go, the AD as well. This does not win games, it breaks down a team. This is not a leader, but a sick man that needs to be put out to pasture! And medicated.
Nice day my friends,
Jimmy

AIRFORCEDUKIE
04-04-2013, 01:53 PM
I see a bunch of people in this video. How is it that not a single one of those people didnt step up and say or do something to stop this. I guess coming from a military background, I have been trained to respond to things that arent right. Even if it is from someone who is superior to me. I cant wrap my head around the fact that that everyone in that gym allowed this to happen for as long as it did.

noworries
04-04-2013, 02:23 PM
I see a bunch of people in this video. How is it that not a single one of those people didnt step up and say or do something to stop this. I guess coming from a military background, I have been trained to respond to things that arent right. Even if it is from someone who is superior to me. I cant wrap my head around the fact that that everyone in that gym allowed this to happen for as long as it did.

I would think at one point or another one of the guys would shove/swing back...if it was me I would definitely have said something

sagegrouse
04-04-2013, 02:27 PM
I would think at one point or another one of the guys would shove/swing back...if it was me I would definitely have said something

Can you imagine how Shane Battier would have handled the situation? Even during his recruiting, he set up a weekly appointment to talk to each coach on his list of schools. When Pitino called on the wrong night, he crossed Kentucky off his list.

sagegrouse

Billy Dat
04-04-2013, 02:51 PM
I see a bunch of people in this video. How is it that not a single one of those people didnt step up and say or do something to stop this. I guess coming from a military background, I have been trained to respond to things that arent right. Even if it is from someone who is superior to me. I cant wrap my head around the fact that that everyone in that gym allowed this to happen for as long as it did.

I know it's easy to say that, and I'd hope that I would say something, but let's consider who is in the gym and what is at stake.

The Head Coach has dictatorial power over the fate of everyone in that room. Some of that power may be perceived, but it's also very real.

The players - these kids are all scholarship athletes or walk-ons trying to earn a scholarship. Dave Rice had the power to end their college careers by pulling said scholarship.
The assistant coaches - Again, here are people making a subsistence wage hoping to move up the coaching ladder to the point where they can actually earn a decent living
The student managers - Likely wanna be assistant coaches, just further down the coaching ladder

Once you whistle blow in that culture, no matter how morally correct you are, you are considered to have "broken the omerta code" and people will be very reluctant to give you a job. For the players, other coaches will wonder if you are going to "rat them out"...same with the assistants, same with the student managers. The only reason this got out was because the assistant got fired, got angry, and took a chance.

I don't think it's right, but that's the way it is. Head Coaches have so much power over so many people's lives...players, assistants and managers...that it takes an extraordinary individual to stand up to that. How many kids stand up to abusive parents, teachers, coaches, etc? How many people stand up to bullies in general? Life aint like the movies.

Brian913
04-04-2013, 08:01 PM
A player's perspective -http://www.nj.com/rutgersbasketball/index.ssf/2013/04/rutgers_austin_johnson_said_th.html#incart_river

Newton_14
04-04-2013, 08:23 PM
Not promoting it, but saw nothing on the tape that I did not experience first hand in High School hoops in the 80's. (minus the gay slurs).

Was not a daily occurrence but it happened. I think Rice likely took it to an everyday level based on what we have seen so far.

I disagree that only positive "atta boys" works for all players. It doesn't. Different kids respond to different methods. Any Duke fan should know this first hand. Some kids need discipline and need the butt-chewing, others don't.

Again, not supporting Rice. Just saying that expecting all coaches to smile, be happy, and coach with kid's gloves is dreamland. Will not work and will not happen.

Edit: Forgot to add, I do agree he should be fired and needs help. Rice is the extreme. He had to go and needs help.

Brian913
04-04-2013, 09:07 PM
Not promoting it, but saw nothing on the tape that I did not experience first hand in High School hoops in the 80's. (minus the gay slurs).

Was not a daily occurrence but it happened. I think Rice likely took it to an everyday level based on what we have seen so far.

I disagree that only positive "atta boys" works for all players. It doesn't. Different kids respond to different methods. Any Duke fan should know this first hand. Some kids need discipline and need the butt-chewing, others don't.

Again, not supporting Rice. Just saying that expecting all coaches to smile, be happy, and coach with kid's gloves is dreamland. Will not work and will not happen.

Edit: Forgot to add, I do agree he should be fired and needs help. Rice is the extreme. He had to go and needs help.

He was fired because of the homophobic slurs - not because of the physical assault.

DukeAlumBS
04-05-2013, 03:56 AM
Not promoting it, but saw nothing on the tape that I did not experience first hand in High School hoops in the 80's. (minus the gay slurs).

Was not a daily occurrence but it happened. I think Rice likely took it to an everyday level based on what we have seen so far.

I disagree that only positive "atta boys" works for all players. It doesn't. Different kids respond to different methods. Any Duke fan should know this first hand. Some kids need discipline and need the butt-chewing, others don't.

Again, not supporting Rice. Just saying that expecting all coaches to smile, be happy, and coach with kid's gloves is dreamland. Will not work and will not happen.

Edit: Forgot to add, I do agree he should be fired and needs help. Rice is the extreme. He had to go and needs help.

Some military have commented and again society and the military ( which is a direct reflection of society) have changed in this way of coaching or managing an individual. And physical is not accepted. If I saw a coach shove my kid. He would have been put to sleep. The Marine Corps changed their basic training guidlines years ago. As did the Army. I can attest the difference from Vietnam to now the big change. Yes, with specific elite units, the verbal is what is used. Screaming at a person who may be passing out on a 20 mile run, is acceptable. To instill on a person that they have more in them. You see this with the Navy Seals, the Army special forces and the Army Rangers and the Marines. There is no physical abuse . It is not worthy and unfounded. The theory is to promote team. Yes, you get weak people in the service. This is dealt at a different level. The elite units do not have this that often. To get to some of them, takes a grueling process. For instance to get through SF. You have to go to basic training then jump school. All very grueling process before you start your SF training. Jump school alone is very grueling. I never had physical, a lot of verbal here and there. He was fired for the homophobic slur. He should have been shot for the physical IMO. I said earlier there is a lot of mentall illness there. This coach is an example! Again am shocked at the high school level that you had. This is not accepted at all, any more!
The Rutgers coach needs to be medicated heavily.
Nice day
Jimmy

Tripping William
04-05-2013, 11:30 AM
Unclear whether he jumped or was pushed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/06/sports/ncaabasketball/athletic-director-tim-pernetti-is-out-in-rutgers-abuse-scandal.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=SP_ADI_20130405&_r=0

Here is a Turtle
04-05-2013, 11:45 AM
I figured it was only a matter of time before the AD got fired. Even though he built up a lot of clout at Rutgers for getting them into the B1G, no way he survives this nor should he. Wonder if the president is next.

Tripping William
04-05-2013, 11:49 AM
"I figured it was only a matter of time before the AD got fired. Even though he built up a lot of clout at Rutgers for getting them into the B1G, no way he survives this nor should he. Wonder if the president is next."

From the article, it sounds like the University's General Counsel resigned, too.

MaxAMillion
04-05-2013, 11:51 AM
The AD is probably going to go away quietly, but I think he should air out the truth. There had to be a reason why he did not fire the coach after reviewing the tape. Anyone can see that this was going to be a major mess once the press got a hold of this even if no one wanted to let Rice go.

I maintain that this was all about keeping everything quiet while Rutgers jumped to the Big 10. I believe the President and the Atheltic Department made this decision after careful thought. This wasn't some simple miscalculation. What a mess...

Bluedog
04-05-2013, 12:09 PM
"I figured it was only a matter of time before the AD got fired. Even though he built up a lot of clout at Rutgers for getting them into the B1G, no way he survives this nor should he. Wonder if the president is next."

From the article, it sounds like the University's General Counsel resigned, too.

I think the President is safe since he apparently didn't see the video until the recent release to the public. Although he was aware of the punishment, so you would have thought he would have asked to see the evidence, but I suppose he thought the AD had it under his control as it was under his purview.

Mal
04-05-2013, 12:16 PM
I know it's easy to say that, and I'd hope that I would say something, but let's consider who is in the gym and what is at stake.

I'm in agreement with everything Billy Dat said. The individual player is subservient in this relationship and does not have real agency - to talk back to the coach or strike back at the coach would be assumed to be the immediate end of your playing career by a 19-year-old.

What surprises me, however, is that there weren't enough disgruntled, bullied players to band together and make an appearance at the AD's office some afternoon. That's how you flip the leverage around. Surely they talked to each other about what an unbelievable psycho bully Rice was. Banding together behind the scenes would have made a lot more sense than someone individually standing up to the coach during a practice or locker room meeting. The fact that there was no mutiny is strange to me. It's happened before. Even if that weren't to happen, I would have figured that in this day and age one of the guys on the end of the bench with less to lose would think to himself "Well, I've had enough of this" and get a friend to tape a practice for him and anonymously mail it to the local beat reporter.

I would not be shocked to see a couple of Rutgers player parents bringing civil suits against Rice in the near future for intentional infliction of emotional distress or some other tort, or trying to drum up public pressure on the local authorities to file assault charges. I know that if my kid were to be treated like that, I'd have a hard time not going after the guy.

JasonEvans
04-05-2013, 12:25 PM
I see a bunch of people in this video. How is it that not a single one of those people didnt step up and say or do something to stop this. I guess coming from a military background, I have been trained to respond to things that arent right. Even if it is from someone who is superior to me. I cant wrap my head around the fact that that everyone in that gym allowed this to happen for as long as it did.

Umm, one of them did step up and say something, Eric Murdoch. He got fired for it and is currently suing the University for wrongful termination.

-Jason "I bet the AD gets a very lucrative settlement -- to say 'thanks' for getting them into the Big Ten" Evans

sagegrouse
04-05-2013, 12:39 PM
Unclear whether he jumped or was pushed.



If he jumped, I am sure he waited for his parachute to be gold-plated. -- sage

oldnavy
04-05-2013, 12:54 PM
Where is Ron Artest when you need him?? Justifiable coachslaughter??

uh_no
04-05-2013, 12:55 PM
Umm, one of them did step up and say something, Eric Murdoch. He got fired for it and is currently suing the University for wrongful termination.

-Jason "I bet the AD gets a very lucrative settlement -- to say 'thanks' for getting them into the Big Ten" Evans

I was under the impression that he blackmailed the school before releasing the tapes....hence why it took 4 months before they were released...

vick
04-05-2013, 01:42 PM
From the article, it sounds like the University's General Counsel resigned, too.

If the AD's resignation letter (http://www.scarletknights.com/news/release.asp?prID=13052#.UV8LVUp4-An) is accurate, I can see why:


As you know, my first instincts when I saw the videotape of Coach Rice's behavior was to fire him immediately. However, Rutgers decided to follow a process involving university lawyers, human resources professionals, and outside counsel. Following review of the independent investigative report, the consensus was that university policy would not justify dismissal. I have admitted my role in, and regret for, that decision, and wish that I had the opportunity to go back and override it for the sake of everyone involved.

Tripping William
04-05-2013, 01:46 PM
If the AD's resignation letter (http://www.scarletknights.com/news/release.asp?prID=13052#.UV8LVUp4-An) is accurate, I can see why:

Wonder if "university policy" has an outcome-altering provision permitting dismissal of Rice due to "massive and adverse media publicity about an incident or series of incidents that would not justify dismissal under university policy but for said publicity."

loran16
04-05-2013, 01:58 PM
If the AD's resignation letter (http://www.scarletknights.com/news/release.asp?prID=13052#.UV8LVUp4-An) is accurate, I can see why:

The AD's previous words contradict his letter. He also has great incentive to lie if he wants another job anywhere. Not credible.

vick
04-05-2013, 02:06 PM
The AD's previous words contradict his letter. He also has great incentive to lie if he wants another job anywhere. Not credible.

Agreed that he has an incentive to lie, but if he wants another job, lying about who else was involved will certainly not help him.

Kilby
04-05-2013, 02:53 PM
The AD's previous words contradict his letter. He also has great incentive to lie if he wants another job anywhere. Not credible.

I have no problem believing his statement. If he felt that he had any chance of staying in his position he had to say that the decision was his. However, and this is from my experience from seeing these things within a University, once the tape was seen by others and it couldn't be swept under the rug, HR, General Counsel and outside advisers were involved and the decision was a policy and risk management decision. Had the coach been disciplined before, he might have been able to go through firing him. Since he wasn't, the lawyers won out not to fire him. I do not think that the AD is without cupability as he should have known what was happening earlier.

TKG
04-05-2013, 08:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJkUuM8RGPw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Jay Bilas remarks on the situation at Rutgers.

oldnavy
04-06-2013, 08:53 AM
Quick thought on leadership.

I always found that the more I was involved and invested in the folks entrusted to my care, the less I needed to yell.

Did I yell and cuss, I did - but VERY rarely (I can think of 5-6 times in 20+ years). I never called anyone a name. It wasn't in my nature, AND it would have gotten me relieved pretty quick.

If yelling/ranting is the only tool you have, then it becomes useless pretty quick. However, if you only use it sparingly, it can have the right impact.

I can't imagine that Rice was motivating anyone with his escapades except perhaps himself (making himself feel like a big shot).

duke96
04-06-2013, 10:15 AM
The AD's previous words contradict his letter. He also has great incentive to lie if he wants another job anywhere. Not credible.

That whole discussion at the press conference about what happened after the AD, general counsel, HR, etc. reviewed the matter was a joke. The most sensible interpretation I could come up with based on what was said is that AD initlally wanted to fire Rice and the committee reviewed whether he could be fired with "cause" (i.e., they would not have to pay out the rest of his contract). They concluded he could not, which is probably right. But nevertheless, they could very well have fired him without cause, which you can do with anyone anytime -- but there are financial ramifications. Sounded like, to me, it was a financial decision -- let's not fire him now, because we would have to pay him out. In any case, really poorly explained and it was an obvious point that was going to come up since they made reference to the AD's letter saying that he was not able to fire Rice.

Bilas video on this is right on and brilliant.

C

oldnavy
04-06-2013, 10:35 AM
That whole discussion at the press conference about what happened after the AD, general counsel, HR, etc. reviewed the matter was a joke. The most sensible interpretation I could come up with based on what was said is that AD initlally wanted to fire Rice and the committee reviewed whether he could be fired with "cause" (i.e., they would not have to pay out the rest of his contract). They concluded he could not, which is probably right. But nevertheless, they could very well have fired him without cause, which you can do with anyone anytime -- but there are financial ramifications. Sounded like, to me, it was a financial decision -- let's not fire him now, because we would have to pay him out. In any case, really poorly explained and it was an obvious point that was going to come up since they made reference to the AD's letter saying that he was not able to fire Rice.

Bilas video on this is right on and brilliant.

C

What is the difference between now and then? Seems to me that RU just was forced to do what they should have done in the first place and now look the worse for it.

It amazes me at how many in leadership do not learn the simple lesson, "do the right thing, fear no man". Trying to hide bad things doesn't make them go away, they just fester....

duke96
04-06-2013, 01:09 PM
What is the difference between now and then? Seems to me that RU just was forced to do what they should have done in the first place and now look the worse for it.

It amazes me at how many in leadership do not learn the simple lesson, "do the right thing, fear no man". Trying to hide bad things doesn't make them go away, they just fester....

No difference! In fact the president said he was fired without cause now. It was a pathetic attempt to explain why no action was taken originally. And, the AD's letter asserting that Rutgers policy would "not justify dismissal" seems like a red herring. You can fire anyone at any time.

Brian913
04-06-2013, 01:50 PM
No difference! In fact the president said he was fired without cause now. It was a pathetic attempt to explain why no action was taken originally. And, the AD's letter asserting that Rutgers policy would "not justify dismissal" seems like a red herring. You can fire anyone at any time.

Yes, you can "fire anyone at any time," but you can't "fire anyone at any time" without major legal liability. Just take a look at the Rutger's website and see the procedures for firing anyone.

I am sure they followed the same procedures they would have followed if a similar incident happened with a professor. The difference is that nobody in the media would have cared that the professor did similar things.

duke96
04-06-2013, 03:14 PM
Yes, you can "fire anyone at any time," but you can't "fire anyone at any time" without major legal liability. Just take a look at the Rutger's website and see the procedures for firing anyone.

I am sure they followed the same procedures they would have followed if a similar incident happened with a professor. The difference is that nobody in the media would have cared that the professor did similar things.

Feel free to post a a link, but I'm sure they would have been well within their rights to terminate him -- just as they are now. Are you suggesting that they are not? It's the same body of evidence that was used. Are you suggesting that they have subjected themselves to major legal liability by terminating him now? Barchi himself said Rice could and should have been fired in the fall.

uh_no
04-06-2013, 04:01 PM
Feel free to post a a link, but I'm sure they would have been well within their rights to terminate him -- just as they are now. Are you suggesting that they are not? It's the same body of evidence that was used. Are you suggesting that they have subjected themselves to major legal liability by terminating him now? Barchi himself said Rice could and should have been fired in the fall.

Yes.

In all likelihood, Rice will sue the school, and they will have to pay him a good amount of cash (along with paying the new coach, whoever that is).

I understand these are people, but an athletics department also has a budget. And when the AD saw these tapes, he had two competing pulls:

1) how do we protect these kids
2) how do i not put the department budget way in the red

at face value, firing rice would have been an issue with (2), and letting rice keep doing what he was doing was at odds with (1). Therefore the compromise was, alright, we'll keep rice on, but we'll ensure practices are monitored to ensure this doesn't go on anymore.

For the AD, this wasn't as black and white as the media has portrayed it...in the end, what is the point of firing the coach? to make an example of him? to punish him? in theory, the kids would have been protected with the practices being monitored...and getting the termination money from his contract that he will now be owed is hardly punishment (i'll take getting paid to not work....)...docking him 50k seems like pretty stiff punishment as it is (and now the university will probably owe him that too...)

so again I ask, what's the point of firing him?

Of course, to some degree i'm simply playing devils advocate, but people need to realize that there was at least some justification to the ADs decision, and the public loves a "get the torches and pitchforks" situation so much that it can't take a step back and think "what was the AD's mindset" perhaps then we'd find that it's not as simple as trying to save face, or some sort. I think a similar train of thought applies to the hawks calling for the termination of the president....think of it from the president's perspective....he has a job...and likely what he does on a daily basis is far more consequential than rubber stamping the punishment doled out by the athletics department....think about your jobs, do you go to your manager for every decision which is made? does he/she then take that to his/her manager? is the CEO liable for everything that happens below him? At some point you have to entrust your subordinates with decisions....

wilbon ranted yesterday about how the president didn't show "leadership"....you know what is a show of leadership? not micromanaging and instead trusting people.


I think the most fault in the whole situation outside the coach was the AD not making the tapes public up front....in such a situation, he could then justify his action in light of the public outcry.

In the end, the AD was in a somewhat tight spot, and didn't live up to the expectations, as such I suppose the need for a new AD is justifiable.

dyedwab
04-06-2013, 04:38 PM
Yes.

In all likelihood, Rice will sue the school, and they will have to pay him a good amount of cash (along with paying the new coach, whoever that is).

I understand these are people, but an athletics department also has a budget. And when the AD saw these tapes, he had two competing pulls:

1) how do we protect these kids
2) how do i not put the department budget way in the red

at face value, firing rice would have been an issue with (2), and letting rice keep doing what he was doing was at odds with (1). Therefore the compromise was, alright, we'll keep rice on, but we'll ensure practices are monitored to ensure this doesn't go on anymore.

For the AD, this wasn't as black and white as the media has portrayed it...in the end, what is the point of firing the coach? to make an example of him? to punish him? in theory, the kids would have been protected with the practices being monitored...and getting the termination money from his contract that he will now be owed is hardly punishment (i'll take getting paid to not work....)...docking him 50k seems like pretty stiff punishment as it is (and now the university will probably owe him that too...)

so again I ask, what's the point of firing him?

Of course, to some degree i'm simply playing devils advocate, but people need to realize that there was at least some justification to the ADs decision, and the public loves a "get the torches and pitchforks" situation so much that it can't take a step back and think "what was the AD's mindset" perhaps then we'd find that it's not as simple as trying to save face, or some sort. I think a similar train of thought applies to the hawks calling for the termination of the president....think of it from the president's perspective....he has a job...and likely what he does on a daily basis is far more consequential than rubber stamping the punishment doled out by the athletics department....think about your jobs, do you go to your manager for every decision which is made? does he/she then take that to his/her manager? is the CEO liable for everything that happens below him? At some point you have to entrust your subordinates with decisions....

wilbon ranted yesterday about how the president didn't show "leadership"....you know what is a show of leadership? not micromanaging and instead trusting people.


I think the most fault in the whole situation outside the coach was the AD not making the tapes public up front....in such a situation, he could then justify his action in light of the public outcry.

In the end, the AD was in a somewhat tight spot, and didn't live up to the expectations, as such I suppose the need for a new AD is justifiable.

This reading is far to generous to the Rutgers administration. See the attached article

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/04/independent_report_mike_rice_c.html#incart_m-rpt-1

The key quote is this:


Basketball coach Mike Rice did “cross the line” and violate the terms of his contract when he hurled balls and homophobic slurs at his players, according to a report compiled by an independent investigator hired by Rutgers University last year.

University officials were quick to blame the report, which they released for the first time to the media yesterday, for their decision to suspend and not fire Rice in December.

The 49-page report by the law firm Connell Foley LLP of Roseland concluded Rice did not create a “hostile work environment” under a strict interpretation of the university’s anti-discrimination policies. It also praised the coach for appearing to care deeply for his players.

The AD asserts in his resignation letter that he wanted to initially fire Rice. A report commissioned by the University suggests that they could fire him. Apparently, they initially agreed to a 10-game suspension, and reduced it to a 3-game suspension. The failure of leadership here is astounding. Essentially, the only new information that emerged between the decision to not to fire Rice and the decision to fire Rice was the public release of the tape.

As yes, the lack of leadership is the key. What Rutgers did with Rice was one of three very high profile issues that have faced Rutgers in the last year or so (the other two are the trial of a student for bullying, and the upcoming merger with the UMDNJ). Point being, I guarantee that the President knows a helluva lot about the other two, so he needs to know a lot about this one too.

duke96
04-06-2013, 04:41 PM
Yes.

In all likelihood, Rice will sue the school, and they will have to pay him a good amount of cash (along with paying the new coach, whoever that is).

I understand these are people, but an athletics department also has a budget. And when the AD saw these tapes, he had two competing pulls:

1) how do we protect these kids
2) how do i not put the department budget way in the red

at face value, firing rice would have been an issue with (2), and letting rice keep doing what he was doing was at odds with (1). Therefore the compromise was, alright, we'll keep rice on, but we'll ensure practices are monitored to ensure this doesn't go on anymore.

For the AD, this wasn't as black and white as the media has portrayed it...in the end, what is the point of firing the coach? to make an example of him? to punish him? in theory, the kids would have been protected with the practices being monitored...and getting the termination money from his contract that he will now be owed is hardly punishment (i'll take getting paid to not work....)...docking him 50k seems like pretty stiff punishment as it is (and now the university will probably owe him that too...)

so again I ask, what's the point of firing him?

Of course, to some degree i'm simply playing devils advocate, but people need to realize that there was at least some justification to the ADs decision, and the public loves a "get the torches and pitchforks" situation so much that it can't take a step back and think "what was the AD's mindset" perhaps then we'd find that it's not as simple as trying to save face, or some sort. I think a similar train of thought applies to the hawks calling for the termination of the president....think of it from the president's perspective....he has a job...and likely what he does on a daily basis is far more consequential than rubber stamping the punishment doled out by the athletics department....think about your jobs, do you go to your manager for every decision which is made? does he/she then take that to his/her manager? is the CEO liable for everything that happens below him? At some point you have to entrust your subordinates with decisions....

wilbon ranted yesterday about how the president didn't show "leadership"....you know what is a show of leadership? not micromanaging and instead trusting people.


I think the most fault in the whole situation outside the coach was the AD not making the tapes public up front....in such a situation, he could then justify his action in light of the public outcry.

In the end, the AD was in a somewhat tight spot, and didn't live up to the expectations, as such I suppose the need for a new AD is justifiable.

I'm sorry, in your ideal scenario the AD doesn't fire the coach right away, makes the tapes public without firing the coach, and then succumbs to public outcry by firing the coach? And you think that would have reflected better on the school and the AD? All due respect, I hope I never have anyone working for me that thinks that is the way to handle a situation. If anything the AD could have fired Rice and said he would not publicly release the tapes as long as Rice agreed to go quietly. I also disagree with your suggestion that Rice will sue, having read his public comments. And, coaches who don't hit players get fired all the time just for having bad records (as Rice did) and don't end up suing. But all of this is unrelated to my original point that the argument that Rice could not have been dismissed is totally specious.

uh_no
04-06-2013, 05:22 PM
This reading is far to generous to the Rutgers administration. See the attached article

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/04/independent_report_mike_rice_c.html#incart_m-rpt-1

The key quote is this:



The AD asserts in his resignation letter that he wanted to initially fire Rice. A report commissioned by the University suggests that they could fire him. Apparently, they initially agreed to a 10-game suspension, and reduced it to a 3-game suspension. The failure of leadership here is astounding. Essentially, the only new information that emerged between the decision to not to fire Rice and the decision to fire Rice was the public release of the tape.

As yes, the lack of leadership is the key. What Rutgers did with Rice was one of three very high profile issues that have faced Rutgers in the last year or so (the other two are the trial of a student for bullying, and the upcoming merger with the UMDNJ). Point being, I guarantee that the President knows a helluva lot about the other two, so he needs to know a lot about this one too.

Ah. that's the part I had wrong...I was under the impression that they decided they didn't have cause to fire him. I stand by my assertion that the tapes should have been released far earlier, though, regardless of the punishment they inteded to dole out.

Reilly
04-06-2013, 08:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJkUuM8RGPw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Jay Bilas remarks on the situation at Rutgers.

Thanks for linking that; i had not seen it. I want Jay to succeed K but would settle for him being president of the NCAA.

BD80
04-08-2013, 01:23 PM
WFAN here in NY just reported that Eric Murdock, former Rutgers staff member, who was fired last summer, and who provided those tapes to ESPN, had first tried to blackmail Rutgers for $1MM to not release the tapes. What a wonderful bunch of people.


Unclear whether he jumped or was pushed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/06/sports/ncaabasketball/athletic-director-tim-pernetti-is-out-in-rutgers-abuse-scandal.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=SP_ADI_20130405&_r=0

An amusing note to all of this, the FBIis investigating Murdock for allegations of blackmail.

duke96
04-19-2013, 10:26 AM
Yes.

In all likelihood, Rice will sue the school.



So, it looks like where all this ended is that not only did they not have to pay him any cash beyond what was owed to him in his contract for firing him, they actually were able to negotiate with him to reduce the amount they needed to pay him substantially below what his contract said was owed if he were fired not for cause. Presumably so he could avoid a prolonged and public fight about whether his actions constituted cause (as opposed to his seeking a legal legal battle). So, to recap, no lawsuit, no legal liability for Rutgers, and in fact they are going to do better than what the contract required if he were fired without cause.

You can fire whoever you want, and as long as you don't do so for some reason that subjects you to legal liability (e.g., discrimination), it just comes down to a question of whether it was or was not for cause, which is then linked in the contract to associated compensation.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9187573/former-rutgers-coach-mike-rice-receives-475000-settlement