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View Full Version : MBB: Louisville 85, Duke 63 Postgame Thread



hurleyfor3
03-31-2013, 07:34 PM
Wasn't meant to be. Still a great run.

summerwind03
03-31-2013, 07:34 PM
Proud of this team. Next season will be here soon.

ChillinDuke
03-31-2013, 07:35 PM
And so begins the long hard wait until next season.

Great season. Great team. Great run.

Well done, boys.

- Chillin

CLW
03-31-2013, 07:35 PM
we were beaten by a CLEARLY better team today. their defense was OUTSTANDING and we could not stop the high ball screen offense.

someone with more basketball knowledge than i will have to explain to me when the game was still tight why we didn't sag back and contain like the 2010 team did more of. perhaps next season's team will be more athletic and no 6'11" guys out there so we will just switch everything like the Cards did today?

Also Andre tweeted: "Damn"

striker219
03-31-2013, 07:35 PM
Louisville is a great team, they really earned this one. I almost feel bad for whatever horrible thing the curse is going to do to them in the next couple of years.

kaufmjo
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Tough way to go out but thy were really good. I can't get over that crowd - felt like an away game

Furniture
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Very glad that you took the mature decision to open a thread! Congrats to the boys. It's a sad ending but that's life.

J4Kop99
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
I said it before but I'll say it again: I absolutely loved this duke team. They were a real pleasure to watch throughout the season. I will miss Mason, Ryan, Seth, and Coach Collins and I thank them all for what they have done during their time here at Duke. Congrats to L'ville, they deserved this one.

-Now we look forward... Go Duke!

TNDukeFan
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Memorable season, good tourney run.
Thanks to DBR for another season of offering a community to share wins and losses with.

Neals384
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Thanks for a great effort and an exciting season, Blue Devils. Thank you Mason, Ryan and Seth!

And for Louisville, I hope Ware makes a full recovery.

Struggling golfer
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
They were just a better team

JayBean
03-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Disappointed in how it ended, but proud of the season and the spirit.

RoyalBlue08
03-31-2013, 07:37 PM
We lost to the best team in the country playing with a great deal of emotion. Sad to see our seniors go, happy for them in what they accomplished in their careers, and am already impatiently awaiting next season.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 07:37 PM
Proud of this team. Next season will be here soon.

Could not watch the end. Proud of the team. Kind of loss that will make everyone work harder this summer.

rsvman
03-31-2013, 07:37 PM
Great season. Beat UNC twice. Made the Elite Eight with a great win over Michigan State.

Thanks to Mason, Ryan, and Seth (and Todd) for all their wonderful hard work.

RaiderDevil
03-31-2013, 07:37 PM
Not sure I can remember a year when the next season will be such a different team. Will miss the seniors, one of my favorite classes ever

TruBlu
03-31-2013, 07:38 PM
There is no shame in losing to this Louisville team. I will be pulling for them the rest of the way.

Congratulations to our team on a great season.

Special props to our seniors: Seth, Mason, and Kelly for spending their entire 4 years at Duke ranked in the top 10.

Prayers going out to Ware for a speedy and complete recovery.

Kedsy
03-31-2013, 07:38 PM
Sad. But a great season, it's ending notwithstanding. I'm sorry to see Mason, Ryan, and Seth finish their Duke careers but looking forward to next season.

Furniture
03-31-2013, 07:39 PM
You have to feel for the kids. The whole press against them. The crowd! An emotional event like what happened to their player. The shots not dropping. Lots of effort, lots of heart but no luck!

sporthenry
03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
So when's the rubber match? Duke couldn't keep Siva and Smith out of the paint. Couldn't replicate what happened in Atlantis. Those turnovers in the first half hurt. Took any chance of a lead into the half away. And then when Louisville went on its run, Duke completely abandoned its offense. Mason tied it at 42 when Dieng flopped, his next shot was a free throw down 15.

Seems like fatigue eventually caught up. You know after having to play another top 10 team two days ago.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
Yes. The season didn't end in the best way but I feel, as a fan, very satisfied with what our team accomplished. 30 wins, sweep of UNC, Elite 8(losing to #1) are all things to be proud of.

This team, IMO, had alot to overcome from last years team, both emotionally and mentally. To fully put that loss to Lehigh behind them is huge going forward.

I think this team will be remembered much like the '98 team, a launching point to even greater things ahead.

Congrats to the seniors and best wishes in the NBA!

GO DUKE!

J4Kop99
03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
It's gonna be odd not seeing mason, ryan, and seth out there... but it's going to be REALLY WEIRD to not see Coach Collins. Just not the same.

DukeCrow
03-31-2013, 07:41 PM
Will greatly miss this year's seniors. Great effort all year, guys!

Now, everyone should go watch replays of the Miracle Minute and Austin's shot. Your spirits will be lifted almost immediately.

KandG
03-31-2013, 07:42 PM
Great season, and I'm glad they recovered after the Maryland disaster to make this run.

I'll always regret they couldn't have figured it out a little sooner than that loss in the first round of the ACC tournament, because I thought this team deserved to end with at least a Final Four appearance. That loss doomed them to end up in the region with the best team in the country.

The team needed to be perfect all game to have a chance, and Ryan and Seth ended up looking like two tired guys with injuries that ran out of gas. Only Mason looked really fresh all game. Rough game for Sheed, but I feel like he's going to come back next year and be really, really good, and be the elite perimeter defender we were missing this year.

Bye to Mason, Ryan and Seth. I'm actually getting a bit choked up typing this, and I almost never do when talking about the team at the end of the year. But this was one of the most enjoyable and watchable Duke teams I've had the pleasure to experience outside of the Final Four greats.

Congrats to Louisville. They improved more than we did since the early season, and they deserve to win it all.

duke80
03-31-2013, 07:42 PM
All I can think is that Louisville's athletic movement was too much.
Guys seemed a half step too slow a lot of the game, or maybe a little tired?
The game goes to the aggressor more often than not it seems.

Was Louisville's swarming and driving too much and too fast to game plan for???
I'm not an expert on these things but still a little curious what others think.

Thanks for a great, great year to the team and staff.

scottdude8
03-31-2013, 07:42 PM
Not a good day to shoot poorly and play lethargic defense. That being said, we ran into a wall today. Louisville was the hottest team going into the tournament, and then after Ware's injury (thoughts with him, BTW) they had all the emotion in the world behind them, not to mention an obvious home court advantage.

This sucks today. But if you had told me at the beginning of the year, with this team, that Ryan Kelly would be out half the year and we'd make it to the Elite 8 (bolstered by beating MSU, which is always enjoyable) only to lose to the consensus best team in the country (and beat UNC twice), I'd be OK with it. In fact, I'd consider it a good year.

I feel awful today. But a week from now, a year from now, a decade from now, I'll remember this season fondly.

Atlanta Duke
03-31-2013, 07:43 PM
Thanks to Ryan, Seth and Mason for running their own race and letting us root for them through 2013

Really enjoyed this year's team

No shame in losing to this year's best team

mgtr
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
Tough game. Have there ever been a pair as quick as Siva and Smith? As someone else has written, our guard play lost it today. Well, we'll get them next year!

Luther
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
I am upset that this season and era are coming to a end. Ryan,Seth and mason have been an absolute pleasure to watch. Thanks guys!!!! I know your futures will be filled with success.

nchfries67
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
After seeing the way Louisville reacted to the injury of their teammate, I have to say there is no other team I would've rather lost to. Those guys played their hearts out tonight (as did we) but eventually just played better than us. I'm disappointed in the loss, but proud as heck of this team. We were given the toughest road to the Final Four and we fought our butts off to get there. In the end it just wasn't meant to be. I will miss watching Mason, Ryan, Seth, and even Todd playing in a Duke uniform, but wish them the best of luck in the next chapter of their life.

I also wish Louisville the best of luck next weekend. It's great to see an entire group of guys come together for the sake of one of their teammates. Rick Pitino has built more than a team for this year's Louisville squad. These guys have become brothers. Seeing guys like Dieng, Smith, and even Pitino in tears after Ware went down was very moving, even from the opposite point of view.

Two wins over UNC, Battle 4 Atlantis Champions, 30 wins, and an Elite 8 berth. One heck of a season that I thoroughly enjoyed. Here's to hoping the 2013-2014 season can be just as fun, and maybe one week longer.

licc85
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
Can't be too upset about this one. The road to the championship was going to be through Louisville no matter what, and they beat us thoroughly. Would have liked to get to the final 4, but it wasn't meant to be. We played hard, but they were the better team. It was overall an excellent season, and we beat some really great teams along the way. Looking forward to next year.

Hopefully the Ware kid is okay and come backs from that gruesome injury in due time.

NovaScotian
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
does anyone have a link to post game press conferences and such? much appreciated.

hurleyfor3
03-31-2013, 07:46 PM
The bright side is, the $700 I budgeted for a trip to Atlanta I can now spend on something else.

We can still have an all-ACC championship game, sort of.

MartyClark
03-31-2013, 07:47 PM
Will greatly miss this year's seniors. Great effort all year, guys!

Now, everyone should go watch replays of the Miracle Minute and Austin's shot. Your spirits will be lifted almost immediately.

This was a very satisfying year. The team exceeded my expectations and had some really good wins. Today kind of stunk but Louisville is really good and is really peaking.

fuse
03-31-2013, 07:49 PM
Thanks Ryan, Seth and Mason.So proud of what you accomplished. Great season, hard ending. October can't get here soon enough.

NashvilleDevil
03-31-2013, 07:50 PM
Thank you seniors! After that injury I really lost interest in the game. Look forward to Tyler and Josh, I am getting tired of the Josh bashing on these boards, and maybe Andre as the senior leaders next year. Looking forward to Quinn getting work in and becoming the leader we know he will be. Looking forward to seeing Rasheed, Amile and Alex develop even more. Excited for Jabari Parker and the rest of the freshmen class to get on campus. Lots to be excited about for next year.

dukestheheat
03-31-2013, 07:51 PM
I am very proud of this team and what it accomplished!! Elite 8 is a great way to go out and while our seniors are certainly sad about the loss, they are proud of what they did! And, no one is going to beat Louisville.

Go Duke!

Dth.

burnspbesq
03-31-2013, 07:53 PM
It could just be Louisville's day. Their women have a double-digit lead on Baylor at the half. Their women are mugging Griner the same way their man mugged us. And the refs aren't calling any of it in that game, either.

Utley
03-31-2013, 07:54 PM
The hard thing to deal with is the finality of the season being over. I loved this team and the seniors werre like special friends the last 4 years.

Louisville looks like the best team this year. We gave our best and had a fun ride. No reason for this team not to hold their heads high.

I'll miss the camaraderie of this Board over the next few months - what a great group!

jay
03-31-2013, 07:54 PM
At least the board didnt get shut down for the night.

Great season. Thanks for the memories, seniors.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-31-2013, 07:55 PM
And, no one is going to beat Louisville.


Dth.

I think if Michigan can get by Syracuse, they can beat Louisville.

CatDevil
03-31-2013, 07:56 PM
Just wanted to remind everyone the seniors will be playing some fun games with local North Carolina Schools/Coaches in different counties. If you are local it is relatively easy to get tickets I have my tickets to Southeast Guilford High School on April 11th.

My 10 year old son really loves to meet the players and if there are VIP tickets left you should try to get them. We have loved Ryan, Seth and Mason throughout this tournament and plan on showing them our support at the event. We have all our gear packed and ready to be signed!

We always have a Blast!!!
CatDevil

CameronBlue
03-31-2013, 07:57 PM
I won't say that it was a great season. We didn't win the conference title during the regular season or the ACC championship and those are the standards by which I judge success. But I can't recall a time when I faulted Duke's effort and this season is no different. I'm going to miss the seniors, thanks for the memories fellas. Now let's go ladies it's time to taste a little roasted leprechaun.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 07:57 PM
I think if Michigan can get by Syracuse, they can beat Louisville.

I agree that Louisville is not guaranteed to win this. They lost a very good player. Also Cuse had them down big and knows how to play them.. This is anyone's tourney in my mind.

gofurman
03-31-2013, 07:59 PM
Agree with most of the posts here. Great year. Elite eight. 30 wins etc. sweep of UNC is great. Good luck to Mason, Seth, and Ryan. One question though - do we think our perimiter d will be a ill quicker next year? We improved from Seth, Austin and Andre (defensively) to Seth, Quinn and Rasheed Clearly it showed Instead of first round Lehigh it took the elite tandem of Siva and Smith to penetrate

Who will be our perimeter d next year? Hopefully an improved Quinn and Rasheed and ? Thornton backup. Who will be the third? Hood? I just hope to see a speed upgrade (or length) as that was again our downfall. It killed me to watch that one drive where Siva started twenty five feet from the basket in the half court and you could tell he decided he was going all the way and we couldn't get anyone in front of him despite him having to cover twenty five feet. We need a ill more speed or length still

*remind me who are the guys in play for the 123 positions next year. Cook, Suliamon, Murphy, Hood, Thornton, Matt jones... Anyone else?

Atlanta Duke
03-31-2013, 08:00 PM
At least the board didnt get shut down

Maybe because this was the first time since 2003 Duke was not favored and we had time to prepare emotionally for the end?

I recall the board was open after the 2002 loss to Indiana and that was brutal

Thanks to the mods for keeping the board open to salute a good group

_Gary
03-31-2013, 08:00 PM
A big shout out to our Seniors (Ryan, Mason, Seth and Todd). You guys will be greatly missed. It was a wonderful year and the team played great all year long. I'm very proud of them.

Just echoing what others have said. We got beat by a better team. A team that had the perfect kryptonite that Duke is susceptible too (quick guards). It was just a bad matchup that I wish would have taken place in Atlanta. But that's water under the bridge now.

Wish the studio guys wouldn't be so stinkin' giddy (not Jay Bilas, but all the others). I just am tired of always seeing how happy so many of the ESPN guys always seem to be when Duke is eliminated. I honestly wish this Duke hate garbage would stop. It's very annoying.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-31-2013, 08:01 PM
Just wanted to remind everyone the seniors will be playing some fun games with local North Carolina Schools/Coaches in different counties. If you are local it is relatively easy to get tickets I have my tickets to Southeast Guilford High School on April 11th.

My 10 year old son really loves to meet the players and if there are VIP tickets left you should try to get them. We have loved Ryan, Seth and Mason throughout this tournament and plan on showing them our support at the event. We have all our gear packed and ready to be signed!

We always have a Blast!!!
CatDevil

In 1994, I went to one of those in Hickory and met Grant Hill, among others, and got his autograph. It's a really cool experience, especially for young folks.

BTW, Grant dunked from about 2 feet inside the 3-point line on a fast break during the game. Most amazing play I've ever seen before or since.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 08:02 PM
A big shout out to our Seniors (Ryan, Mason, Seth and Todd). You guys will be greatly missed. It was a wonderful year and the team played great all year long. I'm very proud of them.

Just echoing what others have said. We got beat by a better team. A team that had the perfect kryptonite that Duke is susceptible too (quick guards). It was just a bad matchup that I wish would have taken place in Atlanta. But that's water under the bridge now.

Wish the studio guys wouldn't be so stinkin' giddy (not Jay Bilas, but all the others). I just am tired of always seeing how happy so many of the ESPN guys always seem to be when Duke is eliminated. I honestly wish this Duke hate garbage would stop. It's very annoying.

Todd is back- if he wants

yum dukie
03-31-2013, 08:03 PM
Now, everyone should go watch replays of the Miracle Minute and Austin's shot. Your spirits will be lifted almost immediately.

We've had better days against the press. I will replay the '90 regional final against UConn in my mind where K told Hurley as a freshman to just go break Calhoun's vaunted press. And he did. Over and over again, all by himself. Drives home the point even more how great a player Hurley was, and also how having an unflappable point guard makes a huge difference (ok, the amoeba D got him later on, but he conquered that the next year).

Quinn, we're still behind you 100% and look forward to having you come back strong next year!

FerryFor50
03-31-2013, 08:03 PM
I'm now pulling for Wichita State.

Great season... a shame that Duke got stuck with the only remaining #1 seed in the elite 8, not to mention arguably the best #1 seed in the tournament.

When it was tied at 42, they stopped looking inside and just started taking contested jump shots. Some of that is a credit to Louisville's defense, but a lot of it was not really looking to feed Mason.

I still don't understand how a team that presses as much as Louisville doesn't get called for more hand check fouls on their guards. A majority of the fouls on L'ville were in the half court sets. But they hacked a lot on the press. Plus, Duke just didn't handle the press as well as they did the first time they played L'ville. In that game, Cook was huge. He was better tonight than against MSU, but he wasn't as good as he was in Atlantis.

The press finally wore Duke down and then L'ville couldn't miss most of the 2nd half. Ran into a buzzsaw...

Elite 8 is still not bad. Better than losing in the round of 32, or worse... in the first round of the NIT!

Furniture
03-31-2013, 08:04 PM
I guess I will have to do something else instead of reading DBR 10 or 20 times a day.
I might even have to work!
Poo yuk!

Bojangles4Eva
03-31-2013, 08:04 PM
Not dissapointed about this loss at all, or the margin. Louisville is just better at this point in the season, and I will be rooting for them in the FF. I think it's a curse on K from winning the '92 E8 game against Patino...If ever the two coaches shall meet there again, his team will beat us.

Sweep of Kerlina, Kelly's return explosion, winning Battle 4 Atlantis, 30 wins, E8, Curry & Curry hold record for most points between brothers, K advances past Dean in wins @ one school...Lots to like about this season.

Next year's team will be so much different, it will be fun to see what happens.

Hoping the best for Wear...

TruBlu
03-31-2013, 08:06 PM
The bright side is, the $700 I budgeted for a trip to Atlanta I can now spend on something else.

We can still have an all-ACC championship game, sort of.

I live in Atlanta. I budgeted the price of the tickets only. Bummed about that.

subzero02
03-31-2013, 08:07 PM
Yes. The season didn't end in the best way but I feel, as a fan, very satisfied with what our team accomplished. 30 wins, sweep of UNC, Elite 8(losing to #1) are all things to be proud of.

This team, IMO, had alot to overcome from last years team, both emotionally and mentally. To fully put that loss to Lehigh behind them is huge going forward.

I think this team will be remembered much like the '98 team, a launching point to even greater things ahead.

Congrats to the seniors and best wishes in the NBA!

GO DUKE!

I was thinking the same thing... I just hope we stay relatively healthy bext year

Furniture
03-31-2013, 08:07 PM
We were much better at handling the put ins with Kelly back. I wonder if the game would have been different if he had not been in foul trouble.

DukeDevil
03-31-2013, 08:08 PM
Always want a win...but Louisville was pretty damn good and, honestly, I would have been fuming over a loss to Miami, Kansas, or UNC = Ban material if I could get my head together enough to post. This team was a lot of fun to watch this year, and I'm really gonna miss Seth, Ryan, and especially Mason.

Time to watch some Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood highlight reels!!!!

CDu
03-31-2013, 08:08 PM
Tough game. Have there ever been a pair as quick as Siva and Smith? As someone else has written, our guard play lost it today. Well, we'll get them next year!

I prefer to think of it as their guard play won it. Not the other way around.

hillsborodevil
03-31-2013, 08:08 PM
Congrats to Louisville.

I will never understand why Coach K never use's a zone defense. It was so obvious their guards were too quick. Yes, I know he always deploys man to man.

Anyways, the sun will rise in the morning. Beating UNC twice was special. Another fun and special 30 win season for Duke. Thank You to all the Seniors. You will greatly be missed.

I also want to thank DBR for an awesome web site. Superb articles by Featherston, Sumner, and others. DBR really elevates the experience for all Duke fans.

Saratoga2
03-31-2013, 08:09 PM
I thought our guys played very hard and were in the game throughout the first half. In my view, Mason played one of his best games at Duke. Ryan and Seth also did some good things in the game. All in all we lost control due to the speed of the Louisville guards and our inability to make stops, plus we were poor at handling their ball pressure leading to turnovers. I thought we made mental mistakes such as three fouls on three point shooters.

With all that said, we did have open looks but our shooting from the 3 point line was cold and they bottled up Curry or much of the game. Not much more he could do.

Perhaps because I am a biased Duke fan, but I thought the fouls being called on Duke for blocks were not being called as often on Louisville. They were holding, grabbing and bumping on virtually every play, but no call for Duke and then down the floor and a ticky-tack foul on Duke. I am not saying different officiating would have given us a win, but it certainly would have resulted in us being more competitive.

Louisville deserved the win but our guys deserve our heart felt thanks for their efforts this year and over their careers.

hurleyfor3
03-31-2013, 08:10 PM
I live in Atlanta. I budgeted the price of the tickets only. Bummed about that.

I booked the outbound flight already to visit my folks in Alabama. Flying back on an award ticket. Also snagged hotel rooms when Marriott-branded properties were in the $50-60 range all over town. Maybe I can find a Loovill fan to flip them to for $250/night.

WillJ
03-31-2013, 08:13 PM
Not sure it would have made a difference, but would we have been better off going under the high ball screens more often? That would, of course, have left us open to more outside shots, but given how badly Smith and Siva were killing us taking it to the hoop, the thought occurred to me.

MaxAMillion
03-31-2013, 08:14 PM
A big shout out to our Seniors (Ryan, Mason, Seth and Todd). You guys will be greatly missed. It was a wonderful year and the team played great all year long. I'm very proud of them.

Just echoing what others have said. We got beat by a better team. A team that had the perfect kryptonite that Duke is susceptible too (quick guards). It was just a bad matchup that I wish would have taken place in Atlanta. But that's water under the bridge now.

Wish the studio guys wouldn't be so stinkin' giddy (not Jay Bilas, but all the others). I just am tired of always seeing how happy so many of the ESPN guys always seem to be when Duke is eliminated. I honestly wish this Duke hate garbage would stop. It's very annoying.

You can always not watch it. I don't watch any of the pre game shows for any sport. They really don't add anything for me. By the way, no one hates Duke football.

Class of '94
03-31-2013, 08:15 PM
I too am proud of this team and think we did well, especially considering all of the adversity they had to face in regards to the injuries. I hate feeling like this again; but I have to wonder "what if....." Ryan and Seth had been healthy for the whole year and this team had a chance to grow together for the entire season. I honestly think we would've won the ACC regular season and tournament;l and could have given Louisville a better game (although had Duke been fully healthy the whole season, we probably wouldn't see the two teams play until the final 4). Oh well, it just wasn't meant to be; but I sure would like the team to get a break from the injury bug and be allowed to grow into its full potential next season. I'm getting tired of what ifs and thinking about might have been with past teams like the 2011 and 2012 teams if Duke didn't have key injuries to key players.

NovaScotian
03-31-2013, 08:15 PM
any word on the press conferences?

wallyman
03-31-2013, 08:15 PM
Lost to a better, quicker team playing a flawless second half. Great season and congratulations to Ryan, Seth and Mason for their great careers and for being such classy guys. Too bad we went so cold, but they were just too quick and made their shots when they had them. Also too bad we ended up in the bracket with the best team, but we would have had to face them sooner or later no matter what. Looking forward to next year. No shame in losing to the best team in the Elite 8.

downeastdad
03-31-2013, 08:16 PM
Best wishes to Kevin Ware.
Great effort by our guys, in spite of some of the calls, especially the foul on Seth's three when the game was tied.
Next year.
Downeastdad Lehigh '68, Duke P'99

RaiderDevil
03-31-2013, 08:18 PM
I booked Disney Cruise next weekend, so i will be insufferable at work tomorrow instead of potentially with Mickey and Co. Also, I've been wearing the lucky shirt for days without watching, so my family will be thankful for the change.

Saratoga2
03-31-2013, 08:19 PM
Agree with most of the posts here. Great year. Elite eight. 30 wins etc. sweep of UNC is great. Good luck to Mason, Seth, and Ryan. One question though - do we think our perimiter d will be a ill quicker next year? We improved from Seth, Austin and Andre (defensively) to Seth, Quinn and Rasheed Clearly it showed Instead of first round Lehigh it took the elite tandem of Siva and Smith to penetrate

Who will be our perimeter d next year? Hopefully an improved Quinn and Rasheed and ? Thornton backup. Who will be the third? Hood? I just hope to see a speed upgrade (or length) as that was again our downfall. It killed me to watch that one drive where Siva started twenty five feet from the basket in the half court and you could tell he decided he was going all the way and we couldn't get anyone in front of him despite him having to cover twenty five feet. We need a ill more speed or length still

*remind me who are the guys in play for the 123 positions next year. Cook, Suliamon, Murphy, Hood, Thornton, Matt jones... Anyone else?

How about Andre? I think of those only Rasheed could be called quick. I haven't seen Hood play so don't know about that. Matt is not a super quick guard from what I have seen

Native
03-31-2013, 08:19 PM
Can't win 'em all. Outstanding game by the Cards, and a great game plan by Pitino. Wish K had explored more of the 2010 defense with this team — I think it could have been more effective since they couldn't hit from outside early on — but K's won almost 1,000 more games than I have, so I'll shut up.

Thanks to Mase, Ryan, and Seth. They are the epitome of what Duke is all about — great guys, great in the classroom, great on the court. They will be missed.

Let the countdown begin for next year...

Duvall
03-31-2013, 08:20 PM
Congrats to Louisville.

I will never understand why Coach K never use's a zone defense. It was so obvious their guards were too quick. Yes, I know he always deploys man.

Ask Jim Boeheim if playing zone against Louisville is a perfect weapon.

OldSchool
03-31-2013, 08:21 PM
Louisville’s strengths played directly into our weaknesses: (1) We didn’t always do a good job this year of keeping opposing perimeter players out of the lane and away from attacking our bigs. Siva carved us up, Russ Smith too. (2) And (not just this year but the past few years) we haven’t done a good job of punishing teams for throwing a full court trapping press at us. One of the few times in this game we were aggressive after beating the press we got a wide open 3 by Seth. With two good passing big men, there is no reason we could not have been good punishing the press, but it was not a point of emphasis for the team.

It’s unfortunate we had to play the overall number one seed before reaching the final four, but I suppose we can only blame ourselves for not taking care of business against Maryland in the ACC tournament.

All in all, a 30 win season even with losing Ryan for much of the year is a pretty strong achievement, and the announcers noted that Mason, Ryan and Seth had been ranked in the AP Top 10 for their entire careers. Wow! Congratulations, guys.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 08:24 PM
Ask Jim Boeheim if playing zone against Louisville is a perfect weapon.

Duke needed to make shots. The misses led to run outs and the big separation. Add a loud crowd giving their team energy- you get a big loss. The misses by Duke after being tied was the difference. Duke never recovered.

turnandburn55
03-31-2013, 08:29 PM
One of the few times in this game we were aggressive after beating the press we got a wide open 3 by Seth. With two good passing big men, there is no reason we could not have been good punishing the press, but it was not a point of emphasis for the team.

The answer is fairly straightforward-- they had most of their success trapping when Ryan was on the bench in foul trouble. Mason spent much of the game putting the ball on the floor instead of quickly passing the ball (in both the full-court and the half-court) which was exactly what Louisville wanted.

Once Kelly got back into the game, he effectively got the ball upcourt and torched their D, so Pitino backed off the full-court press.

OldSchool
03-31-2013, 08:36 PM
Hopefully the Ware kid is okay and come backs from that gruesome injury in due time.

Echo this. That was a surprising injury. Ware is listed as only 175 lbs. He was not landing from a great height, no higher than landing after a dunk and maybe not even that high. So there was not an unusual amount of force on his leg when he landed. Not like having Lawrence Taylor bend you in two (see Joe Theismann). Perhaps there was a mineral deficiency involved. I suppose we'll find out eventually but it would be useful to get blood work on him and see if there was any bone weakness and whether any particular nutritional supplements were involved and if so, get the word out to other athletes.

75Crazie
03-31-2013, 08:37 PM
I think if Michigan can get by Syracuse, they can beat Louisville.
Louisville has everything to match up with Michigan, and then some. If Louisville plays like it did today, nobody will beat them. If they needed any additional incentive, Ware's injury gave it to them.

bjornolf
03-31-2013, 08:40 PM
Well, that sucked. Great season. Thanks to all the guys, especially the seniors. I definitely think the guys were tired from that rough game against the Spartans.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 08:45 PM
Echo this. That was a surprising injury. Ware is listed as only 175 lbs. He was not landing from a great height, no higher than landing after a dunk and maybe not even that high. So there was not an unusual amount of force on his leg when he landed. Not like having Lawrence Taylor bend you in two (see Joe Theismann). Perhaps there was a mineral deficiency involved. I suppose we'll find out eventually but it would be useful to get blood work on him and see if there was any bone weakness and whether any particular nutritional supplements were involved and if so, get the word out to other athletes.

Hmmm. I do not know this team and assumed he was bigger. You are right- something is amiss. The angle was funny but I have not rewatched it. I recall a pitcher who had bone cancer who broke his arm on a pitch. Lets hope this is not more serious.

FerryFor50
03-31-2013, 08:46 PM
Hmmm. I do not know this team and assumed he was bigger. You are right- something is amiss. The angle was funny but I have not rewatched it. I recall a pitcher who had bone cancer who broke his arm on a pitch. Lets hope this is not more serious.

That was Dave Dravecky.

dukelifer
03-31-2013, 08:48 PM
We must hold ourselves to a higher standard. I am not going to do what I do most years and get sentimental about a good team and some good guys. The elite 8 used to be a disappointment for us and now it seems we rarely get there. We got crushed and our stinking high pressure man to man was the reason. Am I the only one who thinks we should do some things differently against great guards?

A disappointment? Duke usually wins in the elite 8. Sometimes you run up against a hotter team. Duke was doing fine until they stopped hitting shots.

devildeac
03-31-2013, 08:51 PM
I booked the outbound flight already to visit my folks in Alabama. Flying back on an award ticket. Also snagged hotel rooms when Marriott-branded properties were in the $50-60 range all over town. Maybe I can find a Loovill fan to flip them to for $250/night.

If you do that you'll likely be called for a foul:rolleyes:.

Philadukie
03-31-2013, 08:53 PM
We must hold ourselves to a higher standard. I am not going to do what I do most years and get sentimental about a good team and some good guys. The elite 8 used to be a disappointment for us and now it seems we rarely get there. We got crushed and our stinking high pressure man to man was the reason. Am I the only one who thinks we should do some things differently against great guards?

Most years, Duke's defense is set up to take away the three. That was the defensive scheme this year (and most years). Look at the box score. L-ville shot 2-14 from three. We try to make teams beat us with penetration, which requires good rotations from our bigs when our guards get beat (which they do routinely against super-quick guards due to the extreme perimeter pressure). Duke's bigs are then trained to either try to alter the shot without fouling or to take charges (see Hairston and sometimes Kelly), which is supposed to neutralize penetration (and which is why so many folks call us floppers -- even when they're not flops, many people hate this kind of defense because they view it as "weak" or "not street enough.")

It doesn't always work well, particularly against super quick, acrobatic finishers like Siva and Smith (think how many crazy altered shots Smith has hit this tournament).

It will be interesting to see how we defend next year with the roster we'll have.

Kfanarmy
03-31-2013, 08:53 PM
Don't understand why Duke quit goin inside 1/4 of the way through the 2nd half...they were drawing fouls and scoring...very bad strategy given how contested the outside shooting was.

Dukeblue91
03-31-2013, 08:56 PM
This was not how I thought it would end and I knew there was a real good chance of us losing tonight.
However this will not change how proud i am of this team and our Seniors.
We had a great year with some unbelievable games and some serious adversity and still pulled out a 30 win season.
I will truly miss our seniors Mason, Ryan and Seth and feel very sad seeing them go just like all our guys before.
I wish you guys the very best in your futures and I'm proud to have see you grow to become men at Duke.
Thank you for a great ride guys.

Udaman
03-31-2013, 08:56 PM
This was a fun team to watch and pull for. Thanks to Miles, Seth and Ryan for representing all that is wonderful about our school and team.

The better team won today. Not saying that we can't beat them. We certainly could....but not tonight, and not most nights that's for sure. A few things:

1) The first round ACC tournament loss is why we didn't make the Final Four. Win just one game and we are likely a #1 seed. It would have reshuffled everything and everyone.

2) Before the brackets came up I told my son that the only two teams I didn't want in our bracket were Louisville and Michigan. Neither was a good matchup for us (I think Michigan is even worse than Louisville, from a matchup perspective that is). I hope they play each other, because talent wise they are the two best teams left, for sure (and Michigan would stop Silva's penetration, for sure).

3) The injury to Ware was one of the most horrific things I have ever seen in sports. Can you imagine if something like that had happened to Cook? How our team would have reacted? To see their faces, filled with such grief for their friend and teammate, that was what college sports is all about.

4) It's too bad that Kelly got in foul trouble in the first half. He was the key to our beating their press. Once he was back, Pitino realized the press wasn't working and called it off. Not that he needed it because Silva was simply unstoppable.

5) As I told a friend late in the game, "We could have really used Battier out there tonight." :-)

Go Duke. Tough way to end the season, but glad that we lost to the best team, and that we hung tough with them for 35 minutes. We'll be really good next year. For now I'll remember our seniors and Chris Collins fondly!

rtnorthrup
03-31-2013, 08:59 PM
The difference tonight was Deng. His ability to block shots and protect the paint allowed Louisville to overplay on the perimeter. We penetrated well at time only to see out shots get swatted away.

Obviously we didn't defend the high ball screen well. Mason is just not mobile enough to switch that screen and truthfully Sheed and Ryan did not do a good enough job rotating early to give help. Over the last 3 games we simply fouled way too much. That is a usually a sign of a defense that is slow in rotation.

The one real negative I saw tonight was Quinn's body language. He struggled as did all of our guards but I thought he got caught up into too much chirping at the referee and not enough fighting through it. I hope the coaches will show him some tape of his demeanor. He is too good to let his emotions get the best of him.

All in all the best team won.

ArtVandelay
03-31-2013, 08:59 PM
I echo the comments of others that it was a great season. Really unfortunate that Kelly's foot injury sort of derailed what could have been even better.

However, I do think the question needs to be asked why the result was so lopsided and the reversal of fortunes from Atlantis so extreme. There's really no question that Louisville is the better team right now and they are peaking at the right time. Was Dieng's absence that vital? Did Louisville really improve 20+ points more than we did during the course of the season? Did they just play a ridiculous game? Or is the answer that over the longer time horizon, the superior talent wins out, whereas Coach K got our guys ready to play winning basketball earlier in the year (as he always does)?

Still a great season, but something of a letdown for me. I had Final Four hopes after the way we looked early in the season. Elite 8 is nothing to sneeze at, but when you combine it with not winning the ACC regular season or tourney, I am feeling somewhat disappointed right now that Mason, Kelly, and Seth didn't go out on a higher note. They deserve it.

CTDukeFan
03-31-2013, 09:00 PM
I think this was a good year. Not a great year, but a good one. Louisville seems clearly to be the best team in the nation right now (ask Syracuse about the Big East Championship game). Given the three teams already in the final four I felt tonight's game was the real national championship game.
Ware's injury looked bad and I only glanced at the TV replay. My wife, who's a doctor, echoed some of the other comments on this board about him potentially having a more serious issue that caused his bone to break so easily. Hopefully it's just a result of a very awkward landing and he's playing next year.

sporthenry
03-31-2013, 09:06 PM
I echo the comments of others that it was a great season. Really unfortunate that Kelly's foot injury sort of derailed what could have been even better.

However, I do think the question needs to be asked why the result was so lopsided and the reversal of fortunes from Atlantis so extreme. There's really no question that Louisville is the better team right now and they are peaking at the right time. Was Dieng's absence that vital? Did Louisville really improve 20+ points more than we did during the course of the season? Did they just play a ridiculous game? Or is the answer that over the longer time horizon, the superior talent wins out, whereas Coach K got our guys ready to play winning basketball earlier in the year (as he always does)?

Still a great season, but something of a letdown for me. I had Final Four hopes after the way we looked early in the season. Elite 8 is nothing to sneeze at, but when you combine it with not winning the ACC regular season or tourney, I am feeling somewhat disappointed right now that Mason, Kelly, and Seth didn't go out on a higher note. They deserve it.
Could it simply have been that tonight was Louisvile's night and not Duke's night. I don't think the score really told how close a game it was. And sure I'd like a Final 4 but if Duke had just won 1 more game, I feel like these same people would be disappointed.

FerryFor50
03-31-2013, 09:08 PM
I echo the comments of others that it was a great season. Really unfortunate that Kelly's foot injury sort of derailed what could have been even better.

However, I do think the question needs to be asked why the result was so lopsided and the reversal of fortunes from Atlantis so extreme. There's really no question that Louisville is the better team right now and they are peaking at the right time. Was Dieng's absence that vital? Did Louisville really improve 20+ points more than we did during the course of the season? Did they just play a ridiculous game? Or is the answer that over the longer time horizon, the superior talent wins out, whereas Coach K got our guys ready to play winning basketball earlier in the year (as he always does)?

Still a great season, but something of a letdown for me. I had Final Four hopes after the way we looked early in the season. Elite 8 is nothing to sneeze at, but when you combine it with not winning the ACC regular season or tourney, I am feeling somewhat disappointed right now that Mason, Kelly, and Seth didn't go out on a higher note. They deserve it.

It was closer than the final score IMO.

Duke just ran out of gas and stopped hitting shots at the same time L'ville caught fire. Even Dieng was hitting midrange shots.

dukestheheat
03-31-2013, 09:33 PM
I think if Michigan can get by Syracuse, they can beat Louisville.


'....you maaaay be riiiiight!'


Dth.

bdeviled11
03-31-2013, 09:43 PM
The difference to me in this game against Louisville, and the previous one was allllllllll mental. In the first game Duke came in expecting to take the best shot L'ville had to offer, and still win. Kelly's injury to me affected the mental state much more than the physical ability of this team.Quinn Cook's preparation for next year is going to be monumentally important.

Rudy
03-31-2013, 09:53 PM
Outside of the adrenaline-fueled Miami game Ryan never got his shooting stroke back after his long absence. Nothing to blame him for since he played well otherwise.

Louisville was a great team playing with extra emotion. As K said in the presser, our guys needed to have a great game to beat them.

rsvman
03-31-2013, 10:02 PM
Echo this. That was a surprising injury. Ware is listed as only 175 lbs. He was not landing from a great height, no higher than landing after a dunk and maybe not even that high. So there was not an unusual amount of force on his leg when he landed. Not like having Lawrence Taylor bend you in two (see Joe Theismann). Perhaps there was a mineral deficiency involved. I suppose we'll find out eventually but it would be useful to get blood work on him and see if there was any bone weakness and whether any particular nutritional supplements were involved and if so, get the word out to other athletes.

A more likely explanation would be a pre-existing weak spot in the bone from a bone cyst or a bone tumor (benign or malignant).

grossbus
03-31-2013, 10:07 PM
beat the holes.

beat them again.

satisfying.

thanks seniors. you guys were great!

Duke76
03-31-2013, 10:11 PM
Outside of the adrenaline-fueled Miami game Ryan never got his shooting stroke back after his long absence. Nothing to blame him for since he played well otherwise.

Louisville was a great team playing with extra emotion. As K said in the presser, our guys needed to have a great game to beat them.


in the first half that changed the tenor of what we could do completely offensively and defensively and our only way to offset
especially on offense their guard play defense...he was the outlet at the foul line...heck he scored 7 of the first 9 points no telling what would have happened although
clearly Louisville's guards were superior to ours...ours just really looked out of sorts and rattled....you got to be able to penetrate and finish or dish.....he could do it against most but not against these guys....why you appreciate the really great point guards like this Silva kid and out great ones...Hurley, J. Dawkins, Amaker, Kyrie, Nolan



Chuck Barkley really makes me mad but he was right "their foot speed and or our lack thereof killed us tonight...

phaedrus
03-31-2013, 10:13 PM
beat the holes.

beat them again.

satisfying.

thanks seniors. you guys were great!

By my math, the seniors were 7-2 against Carolina.

Furniture
03-31-2013, 10:31 PM
I echo the comments of others that it was a great season. Really unfortunate that Kelly's foot injury sort of derailed what could have been even better.

However, I do think the question needs to be asked why the result was so lopsided and the reversal of fortunes from Atlantis so extreme. There's really no question that Louisville is the better team right now and they are peaking at the right time. Was Dieng's absence that vital? Did Louisville really improve 20+ points more than we did during the course of the season? Did they just play a ridiculous game? Or is the answer that over the longer time horizon, the superior talent wins out, whereas Coach K got our guys ready to play winning basketball earlier in the year (as he always does)?

Still a great season, but something of a letdown for me. I had Final Four hopes after the way we looked early in the season. Elite 8 is nothing to sneeze at, but when you combine it with not winning the ACC regular season or tourney, I am feeling somewhat disappointed right now that Mason, Kelly, and Seth didn't go out on a higher note. They deserve it.
One reason was that Indianapolis is two hours from Louisville making it more or less a home game for them!

UrinalCake
03-31-2013, 10:41 PM
Tough game, we couldn't handle the full-court press and couldn't defend that high ball screen. Toward the end of the game it felt like I was watching a replay of the same thing over and over - high screen around the three-point line, Louisville guard gets a switch and dribbles right by the big man on him, then continues and dribbles right by the second big man who switched over, and lays it in. We never could figure out how to stop it. As for breaking the press, I think it was not only the lack of guard speed but also lack of height that made it tough to pass over the very long and athletic defenders. I can't think of a team we've faced all year that presses like that and it kept us out of rhythm even when we did manage to get the ball down the court.

Anyways, I echo the sentiments that it was a really enjoyable season and our guys fought hard all year long. Our seniors are great kids who have and will continue to represent our school well. And don't forget that in the preseason many picked us to finish third in the ACC. I'd say we at least met expectations, and our rival fans don't really have anything to rag on us about during the offseason except perhaps the margin of victory of this last game.

Kedsy
03-31-2013, 11:00 PM
However, I do think the question needs to be asked why the result was so lopsided and the reversal of fortunes from Atlantis so extreme. There's really no question that Louisville is the better team right now and they are peaking at the right time. Was Dieng's absence that vital? Did Louisville really improve 20+ points more than we did during the course of the season? Did they just play a ridiculous game? Or is the answer that over the longer time horizon, the superior talent wins out, whereas Coach K got our guys ready to play winning basketball earlier in the year (as he always does)?

I don't think you can fairly look at it this way. If Ryan doesn't get in foul trouble it's a completely different game. Even with Ryan in foul trouble, the game was tied with 16 minutes to play. Louisville went on a little run and our players started to panic a little. Feeling the pressure, we missed shots and made a few bad decisions, and in five minutes we were down 13. At that point we had to take some chances, and four minutes later we were down by 18. It was really just that initial five minute run that did us in. If we played again tomorrow I doubt the margin would be 22 points like it was today.

To ask whether Louisville improved by 20+ points or if Deng was really worth 20+ points is the same as saying was Ryan "worth" 30+ points against Miami. In a sense, I suppose you could argue he was, but basketball is not really a linear game in that way.

Buckeye Devil
03-31-2013, 11:02 PM
Best wishes to Kevin Ware.
Great effort by our guys, in spite of some of the calls, especially the foul on Seth's three when the game was tied.
Next year.
Downeastdad Lehigh '68, Duke P'99

Not saying the result would have been different but Duke had gone on a 5-0 run to tie the game and had the ball. Seth would not have missed by that much without contact. It was all downhill after that. I will not fault the referees nor blame them for the loss, even though it was not the best called game I have ever seen. There were plenty of other reasons why Duke lost, but that seemed to definitely be a turning point.

dyedwab
03-31-2013, 11:13 PM
Not saying the result would have been different but Duke had gone on a 5-0 run to tie the game and had the ball. Seth would not have missed by that much without contact. It was all downhill after that. I will not fault the referees nor blame them for the loss, even though it was not the best called game I have ever seen. There were plenty of other reasons why Duke lost, but that seemed to definitely be a turning point.

Yeah, this exchange was the turning point of the game. Seth missed, LOU got the rebound, Smith made a layup and got fouled by Quinn (on very little contact) and he converted the 3-point play. Six point swing that also key Louisville's first run that gave them a sustained lead.

May not have changed the outcome, but that was the point at which the game pivoted to Louisville.

FerryFor50
03-31-2013, 11:15 PM
I kinda wish TT had sent a message foul to Smith similar to the one he put on Nix. Could have changed the complexion of the game.

And the Ware injury was a rallying point for L'ville. Hand it to them - they could have folded, but instead used the injury as motivation.

ncexnyc
03-31-2013, 11:16 PM
It's moments like tonight that remind me why I'll take a four year player over a one and done any day of the week. It's been a pleasure to watch Mason, Ryan, and Seth grow not only as players, but as young men. After four years these kids become part of the family, something you can't say about a kid who hardly unpacks his bag and moves on.

The team gave it the old college try, but came up a little short. After last season's ugly ending an Elite Eight was awesome. I know we didn't achieve our regular season objectives, but the fact that we won as many as we did with Ryan out for the majority of the ACC season shows you just how good this team was.

We lose three outstanding players and gain several new kids. Yes, they are talented, but will they have the teamwork and leadership necessary to become a very good team? As we saw last year when Mason, Ryan, and Seth returned as juniors, none of them were able to take over the leadership mantle, which was vacated by Nolan and Kyle. As we saw finding your own game is hard enough, let alone taking on the responsibility of leading the rest of the team.

I like our chances next year. We had a coach who knows how to build a winning system around the talent that is present. We will be fine next year.

Again, thanks to Mason, Ryan, and Seth. You gave us four years of blood, sweat, and tears and I thank you for that.

superdave
03-31-2013, 11:29 PM
Perhaps because I am a biased Duke fan, but I thought the fouls being called on Duke for blocks were not being called as often on Louisville. They were holding, grabbing and bumping on virtually every play, but no call for Duke and then down the floor and a ticky-tack foul on Duke. I am not saying different officiating would have given us a win, but it certainly would have resulted in us being more competitive.


Louisville's gameplan was to play our guards physically. Teams have had success doing that vs. Seth the last three years and to some extent vs. Quinn this year. They sped Duke's guards up while bumping and clutching them when they could. It throws our guys off coming around screens, splitting double teams etc. Unfortunately our guys were not quick enough to beat it the pressure or strong enough to fight through it. It reminded me of the 2009 loss to Nova.

superdave
03-31-2013, 11:40 PM
Our poor defense vs. Louisville dropped us from #19 to #28 in KenPom's AdjD ranking. Not good. Louisville had a very efficient layup line going in the 2nd half.

gwlaw99
03-31-2013, 11:50 PM
It's moments like tonight that remind me why I'll take a four year player over a one and done any day of the week. It's been a pleasure to watch Mason, Ryan, and Seth grow not only as players, but as young men. After four years these kids become part of the family, something you can't say about a kid who hardly unpacks his bag and moves on.

The team gave it the old college try, but came up a little short. After last season's ugly ending an Elite Eight was awesome. I know we didn't achieve our regular season objectives, but the fact that we won as many as we did with Ryan out for the majority of the ACC season shows you just how good this team was.

We lose three outstanding players and gain several new kids. Yes, they are talented, but will they have the teamwork and leadership necessary to become a very good team? As we saw last year when Mason, Ryan, and Seth returned as juniors, none of them were able to take over the leadership mantle, which was vacated by Nolan and Kyle. As we saw finding your own game is hard enough, let alone taking on the responsibility of leading the rest of the team.

I like our chances next year. We had a coach who knows how to build a winning system around the talent that is present. We will be fine next year.

Again, thanks to Mason, Ryan, and Seth. You gave us four years of blood, sweat, and tears and I thank you for that.

I agree. I would not enjoy Duke basketball nearly as much if we had five freshman starting every year -- even if it meant we would win more games.

Mudge
03-31-2013, 11:54 PM
It could just be Louisville's day. Their women have a double-digit lead on Baylor at the half. Their women are mugging Griner the same way their man mugged us. And the refs aren't calling any of it in that game, either.

This is unnecessary (because it's unfounded) sour grapes-- the better team won, and no ref affected that outcome... Louisville stole a championship from Duke in 1986, when Duke was definitely the better team (still the hardest Duke loss I ever watched-- I'll never get over that game), and I was sure hoping that Duke could steal one back from Louisville tonight, but it wasn't meant to be, and I have a hard time seeing any of the 3 other remaining teams doing it, either-- and if it is to be, I hope it's the least likely-- Wichita State. Louisville played with dignity tonight, and deserved to be applauded for their win.

Mudge
04-01-2013, 12:03 AM
I kinda wish TT had sent a message foul to Smith similar to the one he put on Nix. Could have changed the complexion of the game.

And the Ware injury was a rallying point for L'ville. Hand it to them - they could have folded, but instead used the injury as motivation.

I don't know why any Duke fan would ever root for hard/flagrant fouls to be committed by Duke players-- it is one thing to commit one inadvertently/unintentionally, but it is a completely different kettle of fish to go around trying to do that kind of stuff-- that is a slippery slope for all of college basketball, and a particularly bad regime for a team like Duke (which relies primarily on skill and not brute force, or even superior athleticism, to win) to get into-- be careful what you wish for-- you might get it.

I, for one, never want to see college basketball turn into some kind of Big 10/Old Big East slugfest/war of attrition-- that will never be good for Duke, and it will also certainly be bad for the sport of college basketball... I'd urge you to re-think this desire, too.

FerryFor50
04-01-2013, 12:06 AM
I don't know why any Duke fan would ever root for hard/flagrant fouls to be committed by Duke players-- it is one thing to commit one inadvertently/unintentionally, but it is a completely different kettle of fish to go around trying to do that kind of stuff-- that is a slippery slope for all of college basketball, and a particularly bad regime for a team like Duke (which relies primarily on skill and not brute force, or even superior athleticism, to win) to get into-- be careful what you wish for-- you might get it.

I, for one, never want to see college basketball turn into some kind of Big 10/Old Big East slugfest/war of attrition-- that will never be good for Duke, and it will also certainly be bad for the sport of college basketball... I'd urge you to re-think this desire, too.

I don't mean a flagrant - I don't think TT was going for a flagrant on Nix. Just a hard foul to stop a layup. L'ville got to the rim at will and when there was a foul, it was barely a touch.

I don't want to see it become Big east style either, but if L'ville is going to grab and hold and play Big East style, then Duke should, too. Big 10 style worked against MSU...

sporthenry
04-01-2013, 12:15 AM
I don't know why any Duke fan would ever root for hard/flagrant fouls to be committed by Duke players-- it is one thing to commit one inadvertently/unintentionally, but it is a completely different kettle of fish to go around trying to do that kind of stuff-- that is a slippery slope for all of college basketball, and a particularly bad regime for a team like Duke (which relies primarily on skill and not brute force, or even superior athleticism, to win) to get into-- be careful what you wish for-- you might get it.

I, for one, never want to see college basketball turn into some kind of Big 10/Old Big East slugfest/war of attrition-- that will never be good for Duke, and it will also certainly be bad for the sport of college basketball... I'd urge you to re-think this desire, too.

I don't understand the calling for hard fouls. You think one drive will change a player's tendencies after 10-15 years? And getting a flagrant was incredibly dumb and luckily it didn't hurt us.

With that said, it is a bit perplexing you say you don't want it to turn into Big 10/Big East style yet didn't think the refs had some say in the game in your previous post.

Louisville deserved to win, but the refs also played into them quite a bit. They allowed tons of holding and grabbing but protected the shooter a ton. Duke doesn't really go to the rim but they penetrate to open up space which was limited. Partially because of good defense but partially because the refs allowed it. Not why they lost or a top factor but still a factor nonetheless.

chaosmage
04-01-2013, 12:21 AM
And was glad I did. We played even with them, made a couple of bad decisions, and they hit everything that they threw up. It was a good game for us, as fans, because I'll argue against what someone said earlier about the Elite 8 being a disappointment.

We are spoiled, and instead should count ourselves as blessed.

We have the best coach in the game (I don't care what anyone else thinks, you don't get to where he is without being the best). We have a program that is clean, respected, and the target of so much envy that even impartial announcers revel in our loss. We graduate good, strong, young men who go on to be successful adults. We are so damn good that the thought of not being in the tournament is revolting. Someone said that the same people who are upset about the loss tonight would be upset if we lost in the F4, I'd have to agree. We are so spoiled that we think we should win it all every year, and yes, we should.

But some nights, you just get beat. And that's that. We had a dry spell, they took advantage, and that was it.

Perhaps being in California, away from the UNX fans and the NCSU fans has given me some separation, but I'm more about "Did we have a great year? Did we exceed expectations?" I'd say yes. One senior captain at less than full with leg problems, another breaks his foot, and coming out ahead of all of the people (at my job) who picked Creighton to beat us. I'm disappointed, but I'd be more disappointed if the game was like the Fla/UofM game. Instead we competed, missed some shots, and that was that. The final score was not, to me, reflective of the effort. We didn't stop.

We are blessed, lucky, and fortunate to be fans of the best there is. Louisville is good now, but no program in the country, including the Holes, has the sustained run of success that we do. People don't count us out of anything. We're always in the mix to be there. We are Duke. We are the best overall program in the country.

We are blessed, by whomever you believe in, to have it this good.

Go Duke, go K, and see you in October!

Start the countdown to 1,000 wins.

Chaos

Mudge
04-01-2013, 12:22 AM
A big shout out to our Seniors (Ryan, Mason, Seth and Todd). You guys will be greatly missed. It was a wonderful year and the team played great all year long. I'm very proud of them.

Just echoing what others have said. We got beat by a better team. A team that had the perfect kryptonite that Duke is susceptible too (quick guards). It was just a bad matchup that I wish would have taken place in Atlanta. But that's water under the bridge now.

Wish the studio guys wouldn't be so stinkin' giddy (not Jay Bilas, but all the others). I just am tired of always seeing how happy so many of the ESPN guys always seem to be when Duke is eliminated. I honestly wish this Duke hate garbage would stop. It's very annoying.

Although you are hyper-sensitive to it (as I have noticed you to be, on this site, for years), there are certainly plenty who want to see Duke lose... the one that always perplexes me is Seth Davis-- he seems to take a perverse pleasure in slamming Duke's lesser ability/inability to compete with certain other teams. Beyond Seth's permanently supercilious attitude about just about ANYTHING he has an opinion on (in other words, he's always that way, not just when it comes to Duke's basketball team), I can only assume that he has such schadenfreude about predicting/enjoying Duke losses because he still holds some kind of deep grudge about the rift he had with Coach K, while covering Duke basketball for the Chronicle-- so much so that it easily outweighs any affinity he may have for the team, as an alum.

1999ballboy
04-01-2013, 12:22 AM
Tough, tough game. Greg Anthony was right on point at halftime when he listed all of the ways in which Duke was very fortunate to only be down by 3. We had lots of trouble with the press, sloppy turnovers, dumb fouls, and could not rebound especially on the defensive end. Louisville is a fantastic team, and even though in many ways I do not care for the way that Russ Smith plays (not denying his talent, just don't like the way he sells fouls and flails his body all over the place on drives), I am still rooting for them to go all the way now. Pitino is a class act and deserves a title with this team. Hope they get out there and win one for him and for Kevin Ware.

Congrats to Seth, Mason, and Ryan on fantastic college careers.

FerryFor50
04-01-2013, 12:25 AM
Tough, tough game. Greg Anthony was right on point at halftime when he listed all of the ways in which Duke was very fortunate to only be down by 3. We had lots of trouble with the press, sloppy turnovers, dumb fouls, and could not rebound especially on the defensive end. Louisville is a fantastic team, and even though in many ways I do not care for the way that Russ Smith plays (not denying his talent, just don't like the way he sells fouls and flails his body all over the place on drives), I am still rooting for them to go all the way now. Pitino is a class act and deserves a title with this team. Hope they get out there and win one for him and for Kevin Ware.

Congrats to Seth, Mason, and Ryan on fantastic college careers.

Pitino a class act?

He was Calipari before Calipari. And class acts don't conduct illicit affairs on tables in Italian restaurants...

chaosmage
04-01-2013, 12:34 AM
Although you are hyper-sensitive to it (as I have noticed you to be, on this site, for years), there are certainly plenty who want to see Duke lose... the one that always perplexes me is Seth Davis-- he seems to take a perverse pleasure in slamming Duke's lesser ability/inability to compete with certain other teams. Beyond Seth's permanently supercilious attitude about just about ANYTHING he has an opinion on (in other words, he's always that way, not just when it comes to Duke's basketball team), I can only assume that he has such schadenfreude about predicting/enjoying Duke losses because he still holds some kind of deep grudge about the rift he had with Coach K, while covering Duke basketball for the Chronicle-- so much so that it easily outweighs any affinity he may have for the team, as an alum.

Feinstein seems to be the same way; best thing that ever happened was him leaving MadDog Radio. He's an idiot and seems to do the same.

Mudge
04-01-2013, 12:40 AM
I don't understand the calling for hard fouls. You think one drive will change a player's tendencies after 10-15 years? And getting a flagrant was incredibly dumb and luckily it didn't hurt us.

With that said, it is a bit perplexing you say you don't want it to turn into Big 10/Big East style yet didn't think the refs had some say in the game in your previous post.

Louisville deserved to win, but the refs also played into them quite a bit. They allowed tons of holding and grabbing but protected the shooter a ton. Duke doesn't really go to the rim but they penetrate to open up space which was limited. Partially because of good defense but partially because the refs allowed it. Not why they lost or a top factor but still a factor nonetheless.

There's nothing perplexing about it (to me)-- I don't think this game was at all reminiscent of the old Big East games (when they used to allow 6 personal fouls in league games, because John Thompson the Elder had turned basketball into a football game played by athletes that couldn't shoot)-- this one was neither played nor refereed in that way... I don't think the refs allowed an unnecessary or illegal amount of contact, and I think they generally reffed a pretty good game...

Louisville just beat Duke with superior speed/athleticism at the guard position... this has been a shortcoming of Duke's defense for a number of years now (basically since the year Greg Paulus arrived-- Kyrie Irving's 11-game stint excepted-- and unfortunately, again, something that Seth Davis has been right about highlighting). I think Duke was fortunate in 2010 that all the teams that could do to Duke what Louisville (and Dez Wells) did to Duke this year knocked each other off, before Duke faced them (you'll remember what Villanova did in 2009 to Duke, and Georgetown in 2010)-- the bracket broke Duke's way that year, exactly as it did NOT this year... I absolutely felt (and said so earlier) that all the self-congratulatory talk about Duke's great defense was premature over the last few games-- I agreed with Chuck Barkley that all that "savvy" wasn't going to save Duke tonight. Unfortunately, Chuck only seems to be correct in his predictions when he is picking against my preferred team (the last MSU game excepted).

NashvilleDevil
04-01-2013, 12:43 AM
Pitino a class act?

He was Calipari before Calipari. And class acts don't conduct illicit affairs on tables in Italian restaurants...

Obviously the restaurant affair knocks him down on the decent human scale but as far as running a program I think he's pretty clean. He did recruit a ton of talent at Kentucky but those guys stayed long enough to unpack their bags. I've never heard of any allegations about him and recruiting. He's also never had any Final Foura vacated. I do not dislike Pitino and think he conducts himself well in the press conferences and on the court during the game. Imagine how smug Calipari would've been if Kentucky beat Duke today? Did not see that from Pitino or any of the kids interviewed in the post game presser

FerryFor50
04-01-2013, 12:49 AM
Obviously the restaurant affair knocks him down on the decent human scale but as far as running a program I think he's pretty clean. He did recruit a ton of talent at Kentucky but those guys stayed long enough to unpack their bags. I've never heard of any allegations about him and recruiting. He's also never had any Final Foura vacated. I do not dislike Pitino and think he conducts himself well in the press conferences and on the court during the game. Imagine how smug Calipari would've been if Kentucky beat Duke today? Did not see that from Pitino or any of the kids interviewed in the post game presser

I think he's gotten better over the years, but I always viewed him as kind of duplicitous.

Plus there *have* been questions...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Rick-Pitino-s-recruiting-tactics-slightly-slimy-?urn=ncaab,186799

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2506&dat=19910508&id=2albAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3VENAAAAIBAJ&pg=6777,2340745

I just think he's been more Teflon than Calipari.

NashvilleDevil
04-01-2013, 12:54 AM
I think Duke was fortunate in 2010 that all the teams that could do to Duke what Louisville (and Dez Wells) did to Duke this year knocked each other off, before Duke faced them (you'll remember what Villanova did in 2009 to Duke, and Georgetown in 2010)-- the bracket broke Duke's way that year.

What's this got to do with anything? Duke beat a Baylor team that posed some of the problems you love to highlight in all of your posts. They then soundly beat a West Virginia team that many thought should've been the 1 seed instead of Duke that year. If you think they only won in 2010 because everything "broke right" that is a strange way of thinking. That Duke team had three scorers, took care of the ball, did a great job on the offensive boards and defended well.

FerryFor50
04-01-2013, 12:55 AM
What's this got to do with anything? Duke beat a Baylor team that posed some of the problems you love to highlight in all of your posts. They then soundly beat a West Virginia team that many thought should've been the 1 seed instead of Duke that year. If you think they only won in 2010 because everything "broke right" that is a strange way of thinking. That Duke team had three scorers, took care of the ball, did a great job on the offensive boards and defended well.

I think he means "we didn't get John Wall and Kentucky."

Mudge
04-01-2013, 12:58 AM
Feinstein seems to be the same way; best thing that ever happened was him leaving MadDog Radio. He's an idiot and seems to do the same.

Feinstein is another supercilious dolt from the NYC area, and Coach K recognizes him as such-- and Coach K doesn't suffer fools gladly... oh, by the way, Coach K is about as close with Bob Knight as anyone, and after Feinstein abused his insider access to Indiana's basketball team to write a highly unflattering (albeit probably mostly accurate) book on Knight/Indiana (the book that really made Feinstein's reputation, when he really had little/none before that-- it's the book that has allowed him to sell most of his other books since, and really made him rich), I am sure that Coach K (seeing as he puts loyalty above just about all else) had virtually no use for Feinstein...

(I will acknowledge that one can readily question Knight's astuteness [or apparent lack thereof], for ever granting Feinstein that kind of access, but I imagine that Knight thought he would get some kind of final draft approval-- or at least some version of a whitewash, as many sports figures had once been accustomed to-- Knight grew up in a world where jerks like Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford were protected and even lionized by the press, and he probably made the somewhat pompous mistake of thinking he would get the same kind of treatment 30+ years later... when it was long-since clear, by that time, that all the rules that had governed sports writing had pretty much changed, once Jim Bouton wrote Ball Four.)

NashvilleDevil
04-01-2013, 01:00 AM
I think he's gotten better over the years, but I always viewed him as kind of duplicitous.

Plus there *have* been questions...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Rick-Pitino-s-recruiting-tactics-slightly-slimy-?urn=ncaab,186799

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2506&dat=19910508&id=2albAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3VENAAAAIBAJ&pg=6777,2340745

I just think he's been more Teflon than Calipari.

First one happens all the time. You bring that hire up and a swarm of Duke haters bring up Duhon's Mom. I'm reading from my phone so the second one was blurry. Appeared to be about Carolina great (joking) Clifford Rozier going to a post Kentucky Derby party. Like I said I couldn't read it but that appears minor at worst.

Like I said the restaurant affair knocks him down but I have never viewed him the way I view Calipari. There are no vacated final fours at any of Pitino's stops and I always thought he handled the post Laettner shot game with a lot of class.

NashvilleDevil
04-01-2013, 01:02 AM
I think he means "we didn't get John Wall and Kentucky."

I think Duke would've handled them. He doesn't mention how losing Kyrie for the whole year put Duke out West. Kyrie doesn't get hurt and plays like he was Duke is playing in a more geographic friendly region and probably adding another title to the rafters.

FerryFor50
04-01-2013, 01:08 AM
I think Duke would've handled them. He doesn't mention how losing Kyrie for the whole year put Duke out West. Kyrie doesn't get hurt and plays like he was Duke is playing in a more geographic friendly region and probably adding another title to the rafters.

Kyrie was not on the 2010 championship team. He was on the team that lost to Derrick Williams and Arizona the year after the title run..

sporthenry
04-01-2013, 01:10 AM
What's this got to do with anything? Duke beat a Baylor team that posed some of the problems you love to highlight in all of your posts. They then soundly beat a West Virginia team that many thought should've been the 1 seed instead of Duke that year. If you think they only won in 2010 because everything "broke right" that is a strange way of thinking. That Duke team had three scorers, took care of the ball, did a great job on the offensive boards and defended well.

I agree. Baylor was a terrible match up in Texas on two days rest. I think that was their hardest/best win of the tourney. They did luck out a bit not having to face UK but that's March. It is all about match ups. WVU was bad for UK, Duke was bad for WVU and UK was bad for Duke. But even in a year where Duke got a little luck, is that evened out with a year like 2011?

Like I said, March is about match ups. Louisville wasn't a terrible match up as shown by Atlantis but it wasn't a good match up either. But losing to a team with great guards who get to the rim is pretty much the recipe for most losses in March regardless of team. If you can find a way to contain Louisville you'd be a better coach than probably every other D-1 coach.

Mudge
04-01-2013, 01:55 AM
What's this got to do with anything? Duke beat a Baylor team that posed some of the problems you love to highlight in all of your posts. They then soundly beat a West Virginia team that many thought should've been the 1 seed instead of Duke that year. If you think they only won in 2010 because everything "broke right" that is a strange way of thinking. That Duke team had three scorers, took care of the ball, did a great job on the offensive boards and defended well.

It's got everything to do with it-- it was noted by many analysts in 2010 that there were any number of teams that year that would have been worse matchups for Duke than the ones Duke faced-- I, for one, am glad that Duke didn't meet up with Villanova again in 2010's tournament, because Duke wasn't anymore well fixed to defend their guards that year than Duke defended Georgetown that year (or Villanova the year before). Baylor was supposed to be a problem for Duke in 2010 primarily because of their very athletic big guys, more so than their guards; at guard, LaceDarius Dunn was supposed to be a problem- and he was, getting 22 points, while shooting 6-10 on two-point shots. Duke did well against WVU and Baylor because they defended the big guys inside reasonably well, and rebounded well, not because of their great defense on quick guards. Having three scorers, taking care of the ball, and offensive rebounding had nothing at all to do with Duke's ability (or lack thereof) in 2010 to stop penetration; it's been a problem in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 (after Irving went out), 2012, and 2013 to keep guys like Darrel Mitchell, Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, Joe Mazzulla, Scottie Reynolds, Austin Freeman, Lamont Jones, C.J.McCollum, Shane Larkin, Dez Wells, Peyton Siva, and Russ Smith from breaking down Duke's defense-- 2010 (obviously) included.

I don't know who (except the people who somehow thought that the WVU and Duke teams of 2010 were the same teams as the teams that played in 2008, when they clearly were not-- Duke was much older/mature and more physical inside in 2010) thought that WVU should have been a #1 seed ahead of Duke that year, but I was fairly confident of Duke taking it to WVU in 2010.

I also don't know what you think I've highlighted in "in all of my posts", as my previous one tonight is my first since the first Miami game where I have specifically pointed out Duke's lack of ability to keep quick opposing guards in front of them... my recent posts simply said that I don't think Duke's defense was worth getting giddy over yet-- and tonight pretty much proved that. I thought Sulaimon, early in the year, looked like he could be that guy like Amaker, Dawkins, Ewing, Duhon, Williams, Avery, etc., that could help Duke lock down opposing point guards, but that did not quite turn out-- this year-- maybe he still will become that guy.

Mudge
04-01-2013, 02:06 AM
I agree. Baylor was a terrible match up in Texas on two days rest. I think that was their hardest/best win of the tourney. They did luck out a bit not having to face UK but that's March. It is all about match ups. WVU was bad for UK, Duke was bad for WVU and UK was bad for Duke. But even in a year where Duke got a little luck, is that evened out with a year like 2011?

Like I said, March is about match ups. Louisville wasn't a terrible match up as shown by Atlantis but it wasn't a good match up either. But losing to a team with great guards who get to the rim is pretty much the recipe for most losses in March regardless of team. If you can find a way to contain Louisville you'd be a better coach than probably every other D-1 coach.

I'd say, from this, that you agree with me-- matchups matter, and Duke got much better ones than they COULD have drawn, in 2010. I don't think Baylor was as much of problem with their guards, as with their big men, for Duke-- and I'd like this 2013 Duke team to handle that Baylor team even better than the 2010 team, because I think Plumlee and Kelly would be better defensively and offensively, against Baylor's big men than Zoubek and Thomas were.

As for stopping Louisville's guards this year, it's not really coaching problem-- you either need better, more athletic players (guys like Irving, Duhon, Dawkins, etc.), or you need some help from God (i.e.- Siva and/or Smith not shooting well, as they did in the Bahamas).

Des Esseintes
04-01-2013, 03:20 AM
It's got everything to do with it-- it was noted by many analysts in 2010 that there were any number of teams that year that would have been worse matchups for Duke than the ones Duke faced-- I, for one, am glad that Duke didn't meet up with Villanova again in 2010's tournament, because Duke wasn't anymore well fixed to defend their guards that year than Duke defended Georgetown that year (or Villanova the year before). Baylor was supposed to be a problem for Duke in 2010 primarily because of their very athletic big guys, more so than their guards; at guard, LaceDarius Dunn was supposed to be a problem- and he was, getting 22 points, while shooting 6-10 on two-point shots. Duke did well against WVU and Baylor because they defended the big guys inside reasonably well, and rebounded well, not because of their great defense on quick guards. Having three scorers, taking care of the ball, and offensive rebounding had nothing at all to do with Duke's ability (or lack thereof) in 2010 to stop penetration; it's been a problem in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 (after Irving went out), 2012, and 2013 to keep guys like Darrel Mitchell, Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, Joe Mazzulla, Scottie Reynolds, Austin Freeman, Lamont Jones, C.J.McCollum, Shane Larkin, Dez Wells, Peyton Siva, and Russ Smith from breaking down Duke's defense-- 2010 (obviously) included.

I don't know who (except the people who somehow thought that the WVU and Duke teams of 2010 were the same teams as the teams that played in 2008, when they clearly were not-- Duke was much older/mature and more physical inside in 2010) thought that WVU should have been a #1 seed ahead of Duke that year, but I was fairly confident of Duke taking it to WVU in 2010.

I also don't know what you think I've highlighted in "in all of my posts", as my previous one tonight is my first since the first Miami game where I have specifically pointed out Duke's lack of ability to keep quick opposing guards in front of them... my recent posts simply said that I don't think Duke's defense was worth getting giddy over yet-- and tonight pretty much proved that. I thought Sulaimon, early in the year, looked like he could be that guy like Amaker, Dawkins, Ewing, Duhon, Williams, Avery, etc., that could help Duke lock down opposing point guards, but that did not quite turn out-- this year-- maybe he still will become that guy.

Anyone who includes Joe Mazzulla on a list of unstoppably quick penetrators either has never watched Joe Mazzulla play basketball or is not trying his hardest to be truthful. Anyone who lists Lamont Jones as the critical reason for Duke's loss to Arizona in 2011 either does not know how to spell "Derrick Williams" or is not trying his hardest to be truthful.

Beyond that, LaceDarius Dunn's game was not based on penetration; he was a terrific shooter. The penetrator on the 2010 Baylor team was Tweety Carter, who scored 12 points on 12 shots with 4 turnovers. Duke split this season with both Shane Larkin and the Louisville guards. Duke blew out Temple and held Khalif Wyatt to 6 points. Duke beat Kansas last year with Tyshawn Taylor. Duke went 4-2 against Kendall Marshall. Duke beat Michigan State with Keith Appling both in 2011 and, um, TWO DAYS AGO.

Look, Duke has beaten tons of teams with quick, strong-handle guards. It has also lost to teams quarterbacked by Levance Fields, three-time Greater Pittsburgh Annual Pie-Eating Champion. The quick guard thing is just a narrative that happens to live on because teams with fast guards are better than teams with slow guards, and bad teams don't beat Duke. If we wanted to, we could make a narrative that Duke is undone by strong interior play. I could then mention that Pitt game with DeJuan Blair. I could mention last year's Ohio State game and how Sullinger's dominance broke the back of our defense. I could mention last year's Miami loss when Shane Larkin did nothing and Reggie Johnson scored 27. I could take almost every guard you list above and make his game a story about a big man that went off. 2013 Shane Larkin? Kenny Kadji, whose mobility and distance shooting killed us. Joe Mazzulla? Joe Alexander, who was everywhere in that game and the best player on the court. Momo Jones? Derrick Williams, who made millions of dollars that day. Austin Freeman? Greg Monroe, who had more points than Freeman, just as many assists, and fewer turnovers. Scottie Reynolds? Daunte Cunningham. Ty Lawson? That guy everyone in the Association wants to punch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hansbrough). Dez Wells? Alex Len, who owned Mason in our first loss to them. Are we any closer to the truth with my narrative? Of course not.

Bad things happen in losses. THAT'S WHY THEY END UP BEING LOSSES. Instead of looking for a through-line in a half dozen bad games over as many years, look at our performance in wins as well. There are lots, lots more of those. Remember the origin of "alarmingly unathletic"? That was Gottlieb, Thanksgiving 2009, when Duke and Connecticut were on a collision course to play in the final of the preseason tournament. Duke looked earthbound; Connecticut looked Kemba-fast. Duke won that game.

NashvilleDevil
04-01-2013, 06:14 AM
Kyrie was not on the 2010 championship team. He was on the team that lost to Derrick Williams and Arizona the year after the title run..

I know Kyrie was on the 2011 team. I was just saying that if he doesn't get hurt then Duke doesn't end up out West that year.

KenTankerous
04-01-2013, 06:27 AM
i have not read through this thread and probably won't have time until thursday to do so but had to log on and relay that while watching the game with a bunch of uofk and uofl fans (i.e. Duke haters) they were touched and actually change a bit by the compassion and concern K and the duke players showed when ware went down.

a little bit of the duke hate tsunami died yesterday here in louisville.

it didn't hurt that duke had the class to let louisville win in honor of their fallen warrior...

Cameron
04-01-2013, 09:31 AM
The answer is fairly straightforward-- they had most of their success trapping when Ryan was on the bench in foul trouble. Mason spent much of the game putting the ball on the floor instead of quickly passing the ball (in both the full-court and the half-court) which was exactly what Louisville wanted.

Once Kelly got back into the game, he effectively got the ball upcourt and torched their D, so Pitino backed off the full-court press.

I'm not exactly sure why Shane the Dribbling Machine was auditioning for the Harlem Globetrotters against Louisville, but Mason was certainly bound and determined to show off his handle. I was very disappointed with the decisionmaking yesterday. It wasn't good, to say the least. Mason had an overall really good year, though, and I appreciate the development he made over his career. He worked hard and has put himself in position to play in the NBA. Good for him.

It was a good season, not a great one. I can't describe any season in which we do not win the ACC or reach the final weekend of the tournament as great. But while it was at times frustrating, it was also exciting as hell. So many great moments over the course of the season. Winning in Atlantis. Sheed going six-for-six from three to start the game against Maryland. Going 3-0 against the mighty Big Ten. Seth destroying the best defensive team in the best conference in America. Ryan going beserk against Miami. That last one, it will stand the test of time. It was amazing, like watching a great actor at the peak of his powers. So, in as humbling a fashion as our season came to a close, I choose to remember the many memorable moments, like that night Ryan stole the screen and authored a performance for the ages that would have left Pacino in envy.

We Are Still Duke and we will be back.

ChillinDuke
04-01-2013, 09:42 AM
There's nothing perplexing about it (to me)-- I don't think this game was at all reminiscent of the old Big East games (when they used to allow 6 personal fouls in league games, because John Thompson the Elder had turned basketball into a football game played by athletes that couldn't shoot)-- this one was neither played nor refereed in that way... I don't think the refs allowed an unnecessary or illegal amount of contact, and I think they generally reffed a pretty good game...

Louisville just beat Duke with superior speed/athleticism at the guard position... this has been a shortcoming of Duke's defense for a number of years now (basically since the year Greg Paulus arrived-- Kyrie Irving's 11-game stint excepted-- and unfortunately, again, something that Seth Davis has been right about highlighting). I think Duke was fortunate in 2010 that all the teams that could do to Duke what Louisville (and Dez Wells) did to Duke this year knocked each other off, before Duke faced them (you'll remember what Villanova did in 2009 to Duke, and Georgetown in 2010)-- the bracket broke Duke's way that year, exactly as it did NOT this year... I absolutely felt (and said so earlier) that all the self-congratulatory talk about Duke's great defense was premature over the last few games-- I agreed with Chuck Barkley that all that "savvy" wasn't going to save Duke tonight. Unfortunately, Chuck only seems to be correct in his predictions when he is picking against my preferred team (the last MSU game excepted).

Sorry, I can't agree with this. I completely agree with Des Esseintes. It's much more accurate (IMO) to attribute Duke's losses in recent years to running into great teams (some of which happened to have one or more great guards) than to running into a great guard (regardless of team). The obvious exception would be the McCollum game, but there are a variety of other factors that are pretty unique to that one situation - although I will admit we struggled mightily to stop Mr. McCollum.

I'm just not convinced that there is some fatal flaw with our team or the way we play defense or our athleticism or anything. Our record just does not support it. We have beaten excellent teams, this year, last year, and in every year past. We have lost too - but everyone loses.

And it's all about matchups? Where are we drawing the line regarding "matchups" as the driver? Gonzaga's bracket this year (to anyone who had a pair of working eyeballs) was clearly the weakest bracket. Many thought Gonzaga would waltz into the Elite 8 if not the Final 4. And if not Gonzaga? Well the talking heads spoke about Wisconsin giving them a battle and OSU sleepwalking through the bottom half of the regional. Well, mighty Wisconsin for all their big B1G wins was bounced in their opener. Gonzaga barely got out of their opener and then affirmed that performance by bowing out in the next round. And OSU hit two game winners just to make it to the Elite 8 where they got smashed by Wichita St for the better part of that game. So were those teams completely pathetic for not taking advantage of a bracket that "broke their way" from the getgo?

You win the games you're given. It's really that simple. Thinking that a bracket "breaks" a certain way is hogwash. The way I see it, it's completely selection bias. Because for every team who's bracket appeared easy there were 15 other teams who couldn't take advantage of that "easy" bracket.

We lost yesterday. Louisville looked great. We gave them a game for a good while but couldn't keep it up. There's not much more to it. They were better from top to bottom.

Mason, Ryan, and Seth will be greatly missed.

- Chillin

60's Devil
04-01-2013, 09:54 AM
Echo this. That was a surprising injury. Ware is listed as only 175 lbs. He was not landing from a great height, no higher than landing after a dunk and maybe not even that high. So there was not an unusual amount of force on his leg when he landed. Not like having Lawrence Taylor bend you in two (see Joe Theismann). Perhaps there was a mineral deficiency involved. I suppose we'll find out eventually but it would be useful to get blood work on him and see if there was any bone weakness and whether any particular nutritional supplements were involved and if so, get the word out to other athletes.

Agree. Should not have broken leg with that type of trauma. May be a bone problem or what is called a pathological fracture.

ArtVandelay
04-01-2013, 10:17 AM
I don't think you can fairly look at it this way. If Ryan doesn't get in foul trouble it's a completely different game. Even with Ryan in foul trouble, the game was tied with 16 minutes to play. Louisville went on a little run and our players started to panic a little. Feeling the pressure, we missed shots and made a few bad decisions, and in five minutes we were down 13. At that point we had to take some chances, and four minutes later we were down by 18. It was really just that initial five minute run that did us in. If we played again tomorrow I doubt the margin would be 22 points like it was today.

To ask whether Louisville improved by 20+ points or if Deng was really worth 20+ points is the same as saying was Ryan "worth" 30+ points against Miami. In a sense, I suppose you could argue he was, but basketball is not really a linear game in that way.

Like I said, the result is open to multiple interpretations. Yours seems to be that either Louisville played particularly well and/or we played particularly poorly, and that Louisville is not truly 20 points better than us. You may well be right, and obviously I agree as a general matter that you can't read too much into the outcome of one game. But I didn't watch that game and come out thinking, "man, we could've won that game if we had only gotten a few bounces our way." It's not like it was a close game, and there seemed to be no question that they are a better team than us. Do you disagree with that? It seems to me pretty clear that Louisville is a much improved team from earlier in the year, and while certainly we improved as well, the difference was not as dramatic. Obviously not having Dieng in Atlantis hurt them, but I don't think they beat us by 20 back in November with Dieng.

There could be a lot of reasons for this. One is that Ryan never looked fully back, with the exception of the ridiculous Miami game. Or it could be that his absence disrupted the flow of our team so much that it limited our growth potential. Or it could be that Louisville was younger and more talented and thus had more room for growth than we did. Most likely answer is a combination of all of these things.

rsvman
04-01-2013, 10:24 AM
Anyone who includes Joe Mazzulla on a list of unstoppably quick penetrators either has never watched Joe Mazzulla play basketball or is not trying his hardest to be truthful. Anyone who lists Lamont Jones as the critical reason for Duke's loss to Arizona in 2011 either does not know how to spell "Derrick Williams" or is not trying his hardest to be truthful.

Beyond that, LaceDarius Dunn's game was not based on penetration; he was a terrific shooter. The penetrator on the 2010 Baylor team was Tweety Carter, who scored 12 points on 12 shots with 4 turnovers. Duke split this season with both Shane Larkin and the Louisville guards. Duke blew out Temple and held Khalif Wyatt to 6 points. Duke beat Kansas last year with Tyshawn Taylor. Duke went 4-2 against Kendall Marshall. Duke beat Michigan State with Keith Appling both in 2011 and, um, TWO DAYS AGO.

Look, Duke has beaten tons of teams with quick, strong-handle guards. It has also lost to teams quarterbacked by Levance Fields, three-time Greater Pittsburgh Annual Pie-Eating Champion. The quick guard thing is just a narrative that happens to live on because teams with fast guards are better than teams with slow guards, and bad teams don't beat Duke. If we wanted to, we could make a narrative that Duke is undone by strong interior play. I could then mention that Pitt game with DeJuan Blair. I could mention last year's Ohio State game and how Sullinger's dominance broke the back of our defense. I could mention last year's Miami loss when Shane Larkin did nothing and Reggie Johnson scored 27. I could take almost every guard you list above and make his game a story about a big man that went off. 2013 Shane Larkin? Kenny Kadji, whose mobility and distance shooting killed us. Joe Mazzulla? Joe Alexander, who was everywhere in that game and the best player on the court. Momo Jones? Derrick Williams, who made millions of dollars that day. Austin Freeman? Greg Monroe, who had more points than Freeman, just as many assists, and fewer turnovers. Scottie Reynolds? Daunte Cunningham. Ty Lawson? That guy everyone in the Association wants to punch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hansbrough). Dez Wells? Alex Len, who owned Mason in our first loss to them. Are we any closer to the truth with my narrative? Of course not.

Bad things happen in losses. THAT'S WHY THEY END UP BEING LOSSES. Instead of looking for a through-line in a half dozen bad games over as many years, look at our performance in wins as well. There are lots, lots more of those. Remember the origin of "alarmingly unathletic"? That was Gottlieb, Thanksgiving 2009, when Duke and Connecticut were on a collision course to play in the final of the preseason tournament. Duke looked earthbound; Connecticut looked Kemba-fast. Duke won that game.

Yes. This, a thousand times this.

Not to mention that that list of guards, with some exceptions (especially Joe Mazulla) reads like a who's-who of great guards, which would also suggest that we lost to teams that had great players, which is not particularly surprising. The Mazulla thing is explainable (in a strange way) as the Kelly v Miami phenomenon. A guy just has an outstanding game that goes way above and beyond anything that had ever come before and beyond anything that came after. It just happens.

I like the fact that as Duke fans we are so spoiled that we can pretty much remember, list, and point out names of people on the teams we lost to over a period of, like, a decade or more. Lots of teams lost that many games this year alone. Lots of elite teams can't name that many tournament losses because they MISSED the tournament on several occasions. There's no phrase other than "sustained excellence" for what we have witnessed with the Duke basketball program over the past 25 years.

Billy Dat
04-01-2013, 10:25 AM
Tough way to go down after hanging tough for 25 minutes. The last 15? We just got dominated on both sides of the ball. I can't think of one guy on their team who played poorly. Their guards were magnificent, Dieng was doing his best Anthony Davis and even hitting foul line jumpers (that's when I knew we were toast), Behanan...Hancock...ugh. Credit Pitino with his high pick and roll where he added an extra layer of screening action to create more gaps and pillars for those guards to snake around. The vision in my mind that will endure is Dieng throwing every one of our guards lay-up attempts and Lousiville guards scoring lay-up after lay-up with our big struggling to catch up.



So many great moments over the course of the season. Winning in Atlantis. Sheed going six-for-six from three to start the game against Maryland. Going 3-0 against the mighty Big Ten. Seth destroying the best defensive team in the best conference in America. Ryan going beserk against Miami. That last one, it will stand the test of time. It was amazing, like watching a great actor at the peak of his powers. So, in as humbling a fashion as our season came to a close, I choose to remember the many memorable moments, like that night Ryan stole the screen and authored a performance for the ages that would have left Pacino in envy.

I'll add the two wins over Carolina, as those moments are always important and help "make" a season. But, I'll agree with you on the Miami home game as the game of the season. Even championships years sometimes lack moments of pure unexpected magic like that. Of course, I'd have traded it for a championship.

As others have eloquently said, following the team gives me an immense amount of pleasure. Thanks to Seth, Mason and Ryan - your careers were fantastic and you leave having won many tournaments, including the big one a few years back. I hope you all play pro somewhere next year so I can continue to watch you play. Thanks to Coach Collins - forever a member of the family and, hopefully, the first coach to guide Northwestern to the big dance.

Finally, two quotes to share from last night's post game press conference.

Praise for K from Pitino:
"And Mike's not only the best coach in our game, probably the classiest guy in our game. So for me, we know how hard it is to beat Duke. If you let Duke shoot, if you let Duke get in transition, you're going to lose. We took those two things away. He was a class man when he beat me 21 years ago. And he's a class man in defeat. He's just a special guy. We're lucky to have him in our game. We say he's the modern day Coach Wooden. And Coach Wooden is the one man I looked up to all my life as a teacher of the game of basketball. All of us in the game are lucky to have Mike as our Olympic coach and as the most successful man in our game."

And K on this year vs last year:
"Yeah. I think we've had an unbelievable season. I didn't like our season last year, not just the way it ended, I just didn't like it, even though we were 27-7. I loved this season. I love my three seniors. Every day--at the end of a year you do this, there can be a little bit of you that wants it to be over and you fight it. And in some years, every once in a while, not too often, you just want the damn thing to be over. And there's not one part of me that wants this season to be over. I'm fresh. I love my guys. They were terrific, and they won 30 games with an unbelievable schedule."

Cameron
04-01-2013, 10:29 AM
But I didn't watch that game and come out thinking, "man, we could've won that game if we had only gotten a few bounces our way." It's not like it was a close game, and there seemed to be no question that they are a better team than us. Do you disagree with that?

While I agree that we were clearly outmatched over the final 15 minutes, the score of the game was dead even at 42 25 minutes into the game. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that, had a few more shots bounced our way and went in during our second-half push that ultimately tied the game, we might have taken the lead and the outcome might have been considerably different.

It's much easier to think about it like that, at least, for my own comfort.

daveyro
04-01-2013, 10:38 AM
While I agree that we were clearly outmatched over the final 15 minutes, the score of the game was dead even at 42 25 minutes into the game. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that, had a few more shots bounced our way and went in during our second-half push that ultimately tied the game, we might have taken the lead and the outcome might have been considerably different.

It's much easier to think about it like that, at least, for my own comfort.

I fell in love with this team early because of the seniors and the emergence of some new blood to make next year promising. And this was a great season by most measures. I aslo worship at the alter of K, so second guessing him is a lost cause. So I'll frame this not as "K should've", "but does anyone know why we didn't":

1. Screen for Seth. I stood about six inches from the TV focusing a lot on Seth. We often used a double off-ball screen, low post left, and then low post right, and then feed him the ball. I did not see this, or much screening at all. He needs a little help to get open. Multiple times our perimeter screeners broke off too soon to allow the Seth to rub his defender into the screen. Cook esp.

2. Play Amile. I haven't seen Amile's name come up in this thread, or more importantly in the game until it was under 3 minutes. Given the amount of quickness we were facing, he could have created some havoc down low and stop some penetration. Some of his inevitable fouls might've draw down Ryan's fouls.

I still think we ran into a buzzsaw, and we likely would not have won if the two adjustments were made - just wondering why.

DukeAlumBS
04-01-2013, 10:54 AM
Agree. Should not have broken leg with that type of trauma. May be a bone problem or what is called a pathological fracture.

His injury was enough to cause that type of fracture. The fall , and landing incorrectly will do this in hoop. A pathological fracture, is the result of a bone cancer, or other boney growths that are not cancer. Again, the force was sufficient to do what happened.
Have nice day
Jimmy

Cameron
04-01-2013, 10:58 AM
Screen for Seth. I stood about six inches from the TV focusing a lot on Seth.

You must have strong retinas.


We often used a double off-ball screen, low post left, and then low post right, and then feed him the ball. I did not see this, or much screening at all. He needs a little help to get open. Multiple times our perimeter screeners broke off too soon to allow the Seth to rub his defender into the screen. Cook esp.

This probably sounds like a cop out, but I got the feeling that Seth simply had nothing left to give for the weekend. We all know he didn't perform well all season long on short rest due to his nagging injuries. I think playing on two bad legs for the second time in three days simply caught up to him. He was sluggish from the get-go and his movement not good at all coming around screens, which I think made our seemingly poor screening for him appear even worse. Perhaps I am just digging for excuses for why we lost, but I think there is definitely some merit to that theory. Seth had certain limitations, and one of them was struggling in the second of back-to-back games that fell within a very short window. We saw this in Atlantis, too, when Curry broke out for 25 against Minnesota and then tapered off considerably over the next two games of the tournament, which fell on successive days.

I agree, though, that it seems like we should have tried "something different," but with as hot as Louisville got, we simply needed to make shots. We had some open looks, but just couldn't hit them and the Cardinals pulled away when we stopped hitting.

tendev
04-01-2013, 11:31 AM
There is alot of analysis, and alot of it interesting, on this board about why we lost to Louisville and even why we lost in all the other recent years save 2010. The short and simpler answer is that they are better and the teams that beat us in those other years were better or played better. The line be winning and losing these days is razor thin.

I suspect there are a few other teams this year, not alot, who are better as well . They (Louisville) play better defense and score more easily then we do. Other teams get great recruits and those recruits, if they stay, tend to be very good, if not great players. We get them too but oftentimes they are not quite quick enough or don't do this or that well enough to make the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8 or avoid an upset to Lehigh or whatever was the last loss. If you look at the Final Four this year, 3 of the 4 have not been there in more than a decade. How would a Duke fan react to that record? We have a really good basketball progam and are always in the conversation. But really good is not dominant like in the 1990s. We aren't that now and I don't see how we will ever be that in this era of one and done players.

SoCalDukeFan
04-01-2013, 11:55 AM
There is alot of analysis, and alot of it interesting, on this board about why we lost to Louisville and even why we lost in all the other recent years save 2010. The short and simpler answer is that they are better and the teams that beat us in those other years were better or played better. The line be winning and losing these days is razor thin.

I suspect there are a few other teams this year, not alot, who are better as well . They (Louisville) play better defense and score more easily then we do. Other teams get great recruits and those recruits, if they stay, tend to be very good, if not great players. We get them too but oftentimes they are not quite quick enough or don't do this or that well enough to make the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8 or avoid an upset to Lehigh or whatever was the last loss. If you look at the Final Four this year, 3 of the 4 have not been there in more than a decade. How would a Duke fan react to that record? We have a really good basketball progam and are always in the conversation. But really good is not dominant like in the 1990s. We aren't that now and I don't see how we will ever be that in this era of one and done players.

Injuries are an unfortunate part of sports. Kyrie's injury hurt in 2011, Ryan was not available for the Lehigh game, and Ryan's foot injury and Seth leg issues certainly kept this team from reaching its full potential.

But that is just the way it is. Some years you are healthy all year or at least at the right time and you get some breaks in the tournament draw and other years you do not.

Getting ready for 2013-14 season.

SoCal

Billy Dat
04-01-2013, 11:55 AM
One bummer about some of our recent NCAA tournament losses is our penchant for leading or being within a basket at the half and then getting our doors blown off in the second half.

2009 - Villanova - down 3 at half, lose by 23
2011 - Arizona - up 6 at half, lose by 16
2013 - Louisville - down 3 at half, lose by 22

Would you guys rather lose a close game or get creamed in the second half? It's a lose-lose scenario, but I am not sure which is worse. The close loss stings because you always feel you could have done something to win. But the blowouts make you feel a different form of malaise.

Cameron
04-01-2013, 12:09 PM
Random note: Clark Kellogg, one of the worst and most ineloquent speakers in the business, was very irritating with the Win One For Ware storyline. He kept drilling it home. I felt for the kid -- obviously -- but Kellogg kept going on and on about winning one for their fallen hero. He is not a soldier. He is a basketball player. I felt like the announcing team turned the commentary of the game into a comeback story for Louisville and it was very disrupting and, quite frankly, biased.

On a related note, why does Jim Nantz treat the lead-in to every commercial break like he's narrating the sinking of the Titanic? He's more pretentious than a ballerina. He is fine as an announcer and great at what he does, but he is also way overboard and dramatic.

-Mad Duke Fan

Kedsy
04-01-2013, 12:15 PM
2. Play Amile. I haven't seen Amile's name come up in this thread, or more importantly in the game until it was under 3 minutes.

Amile played 2.5 minutes in the first half and 2.5 minutes in the second half, so your observation is not entirely accurate. Either way, I'm not sure why you think playing him more would have affected the outcome of the game.


Like I said, the result is open to multiple interpretations. Yours seems to be that either Louisville played particularly well and/or we played particularly poorly, and that Louisville is not truly 20 points better than us.

My position is that just because you lose one game to a team by 20 doesn't mean that team is "20 points better than us."


It's not like it was a close game, and there seemed to be no question that they are a better team than us. Do you disagree with that?

I do think Louisville was a better team than us yesterday. My guess is if we played them a seven game series they beat us, probably 4 to 3, or maybe 4 to 2. But I also think if a "few bounces" had gone our way it would have been a much closer game. And in a close game who knows what might have happened? In any event, if the final score had been Louisville by 8 (which was certainly within the realm of possibility if things hadn't snowballed on us like they did), I assume you wouldn't be asking how things changed so much between November and now.

gwlaw99
04-01-2013, 12:24 PM
Should we have tried a 2-3 zone? It couldn't have been much worse than our man to man against the ball screen?

Bluedog
04-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Well, it seems like we've covered the aspects of the game itself fairly thoroughly and how everybody played, so I won't go much into that, but wanted to provide my perspective of the game atmosphere. It was undoubtedly the most hostile and intense opposition crowd I have ever personally experienced and it was truly a ROAD game for our guys. I went to the national championship game vs. Butler and while that game also had an overwhelming majority of the crowd against Duke, it doesn't even come close to comparing. Butler fans were ardent in their support of Butler, but are more on the Duke level of chillness/obscenity. I've also been to NFL/NBA/MLB games in the opposing team's stadium and those are a joke compared to what just happened. Louisville fans purchased 95% of the tickets and brought it.

Perhaps it was just unfortunate seating for me as I had a super crazy guy behind me who, on top of his verbal diatribes and yelling, slammed the seat next to me with his hands the whole game, reverberating our entire row (Louisville fans next to me were apologizing to me and complaining about his antics...). But, overall, it was a stressful experience for a Duke fan for sure. Haven't seen Duke play at Maryland and certainly didn't see US MNT play at Azteca Stadium a la DWine, so, for me, this crowd topped the most hostile sporting event I've even been to. Louisville fans were LOUD, stood for a large portion of the game, brought the intensity, brought the insults (directed towards the players, not opposing fans), complained vociferously about the officiating, and more. I was engulfed in a sea of Louisville red. (I will say that most of the people I spoke with before and after the game were quite friendly, but the people around me during the game were another matter.)

I can't say it wasn't an intense atmosphere, at least. Certainly, it will be memorable. Sometimes at these types of events, there are mostly non-partisan types who just want to enjoy a good game and they are in a huge football stadium, so the sound dies out (which it what it seemed like happened in the Michigan-Florida game in Arlington). That wasn't the case here. Having the court in the endzone and only selling a portion of the stadium (unlike the 2010 Final Four) definitely was to advantage of the school that brought the fans since it created a more "intimate" atmosphere where the noise didn't dissipate as much (as intimate as 37,000 people can be.)

I don't know if the atmosphere affected the play on the court; it certainly had an effect on my psyche as a fan. Obviously, the team has dealt with hostile environments in the past, though, so I'm not using it as an excuse (and them's the breaks sometimes). I'm just relaying the experience to provide some more perspective. Road games are tough. Road games against a very quality opponent like Louisville are particularly difficult. I didn't think the team wilted under pressure or even played poorly. They just ran into a buzzsaw of a 10-man rotation full press defense and extremely quick penetrating guards that eventually wore the team down. We played up to their level for a good portion of the game, but couldn't sustain it for the duration.

I'm proud of the team and the year they had. They battled through adversity, had some amazing moments and wins, and displayed passion, intensity, and poise throughout. The seniors gave it their all and I will look back fondly at what they delivered over their careers. Unfortunately, it came to an end in a loss (and it does for 99% of the college basketball world), but they have nothing to hang their heads about. This team won perhaps one of the most loaded pre-season tournaments in history, enacted revenge on Miami in Cameron, destroyed UNC on the road, didn't lose a game at home, and showed great grit and determination in the tournament, knocking of a dangerous Creighton squad and a very physical MSU team that almost all pundits gave Duke no shot of beating. They then has the extreme challenge of having to play the overall #1 team in a very hostile road environment, and while they came out on the short end of it, I saw firsthand the intensity and desire they brought to the game.

Great season. No regrets.

Billy Dat
04-01-2013, 12:42 PM
Should we have tried a 2-3 zone? It couldn't have been much worse than our man to man against the ball screen?

If we don't practice it, which I don't think we do, then it would get shredded. I think those guards could probably drive on a brick wall. I can't remember how we schemed our man to man to defend them in the Bahamas but it worked pretty well that time.

_Gary
04-01-2013, 12:47 PM
Fantastic post, Bluedog! Thanks for the first hand account. It jived with what I saw on TV. And believe me, even though I wasn't in the arena I can tell you that what you described was coming through loud and clear in my living room. A true road game is putting it mildly.

Troublemaker
04-01-2013, 01:07 PM
Would you guys rather lose a close game or get creamed in the second half? It's a lose-lose scenario, but I am not sure which is worse. The close loss stings because you always feel you could have done something to win. But the blowouts make you feel a different form of malaise.

I prefer the creaming. I was quite relaxed as the game wound down and was in "tip your cap" mode wrt to Louisville. Same with the loss to Villanova. Close losses like '86 or '04, OTOH, shave years off my life and reduce my progeny. It's a weird thing to say, but I know in my heart I'd have more grandchildren if we had won in '86 or '04.

GarrickB28
04-01-2013, 01:21 PM
I prefer the creaming. I was quite relaxed as the game wound down and was in "tip your cap" mode wrt to Louisville. Same with the loss to Villanova. Close losses like '86 or '04, OTOH, shave years off my life and reduce my progeny. It's a weird thing to say, but I know in my heart I'd have more grandchildren if we had won in '86 or '04.

My Fiance surprised me with floor seats for the game on Sunday, right at the foul line.....directly in line with Ware's injury. We watched the entire thing unfold 20 feet in front of us. It was hard to tell what was going on at first but everyone had to quickly turn away when he started to roll around exposing the injury. A few people left the stadium because they were so nauseous. I am not sure how coherent he was initially, but he was out cold when they wheeled him away.

After half, we came out of the locker room five or six minutes later than Louisville, with only a 1/2 minutes until the second half resumed. Not sure if there was any reason why we stayed in our locker room for so long?

Like others have said, the crowd was outstanding for them. We made friends in our section and there were a lot of nice Louisville fans there. However, the bad fans were some of the worst fans that I have ever seen. Anytime a foul was called or a shot made for them the profanity rained down. It was some of the foulest and most hateful language that I have ever heard.

My only complaint is the number of Duke fans that started leaving before the game was over. The mass exodus started early and never stopped. Not many folks were left to applaud our seniors when they were taken out near the end of the game.

chaosmage
04-01-2013, 01:32 PM
I prefer the creaming. I was quite relaxed as the game wound down and was in "tip your cap" mode wrt to Louisville. Same with the loss to Villanova. Close losses like '86 or '04, OTOH, shave years off my life and reduce my progeny. It's a weird thing to say, but I know in my heart I'd have more grandchildren if we had won in '86 or '04.

The wife, as I pointed out in the pregame thread, wasn't going to let me watch, because she was cooking and running around yesterday, but I behaved myself, and when a game goes like that one... there really isn't much you can do. It's one thing to be on the edge during 2010 title game or others like it, but when you are just getting beat, there isn't much to say about it. We got beat by a better squad. As you said, tip your cap and salute the seniors for a great season and enjoy (for me) Spring Break!

Next play. New season. I think I'm excited for next year because it's going to be (in my mind) different from any team we've fielded in a while.

79-77
04-01-2013, 01:52 PM
It was an uphill battle from the get-go. Duke played admirably, and could've won, but it would've taken A-plus execution in the 2nd half, which we didn't see. Other than a spurt at the beginning of the 2nd half, Curry was a non-factor, and while Cook elevated his play relative to the earlier tournament games, it wasn't enough to make up for a silenced Curry.

I agree with those who said earlier that it was a good season, not a great one. Still, as a Duke alum I am happy with the character and determination of the graduating class. Those are 3 solid young men (plus the walk-on, who I'm sure is also a good guy). Each of them has real limitations in his game, but each of them clearly worked his butt off to maximize his ability.

I also thought the quote from Coach K was interesting: "some years you just want the damn thing to be over." When considered alongside his negative comments about last year, plus the various rumors about team dissension last year it does seem clear that there were a number of problems behind the curtain.

All good things come to an end. The best news is that Coach K is still razor sharp and he's still ours.

g-money
04-01-2013, 02:09 PM
Anyone who includes Joe Mazzulla on a list of unstoppably quick penetrators either has never watched Joe Mazzulla play basketball or is not trying his hardest to be truthful. Anyone who lists Lamont Jones as the critical reason for Duke's loss to Arizona in 2011 either does not know how to spell "Derrick Williams" or is not trying his hardest to be truthful.

Beyond that, LaceDarius Dunn's game was not based on penetration; he was a terrific shooter. The penetrator on the 2010 Baylor team was Tweety Carter, who scored 12 points on 12 shots with 4 turnovers. Duke split this season with both Shane Larkin and the Louisville guards. Duke blew out Temple and held Khalif Wyatt to 6 points. Duke beat Kansas last year with Tyshawn Taylor. Duke went 4-2 against Kendall Marshall. Duke beat Michigan State with Keith Appling both in 2011 and, um, TWO DAYS AGO.

Look, Duke has beaten tons of teams with quick, strong-handle guards. It has also lost to teams quarterbacked by Levance Fields, three-time Greater Pittsburgh Annual Pie-Eating Champion. The quick guard thing is just a narrative that happens to live on because teams with fast guards are better than teams with slow guards, and bad teams don't beat Duke. If we wanted to, we could make a narrative that Duke is undone by strong interior play. I could then mention that Pitt game with DeJuan Blair. I could mention last year's Ohio State game and how Sullinger's dominance broke the back of our defense. I could mention last year's Miami loss when Shane Larkin did nothing and Reggie Johnson scored 27. I could take almost every guard you list above and make his game a story about a big man that went off. 2013 Shane Larkin? Kenny Kadji, whose mobility and distance shooting killed us. Joe Mazzulla? Joe Alexander, who was everywhere in that game and the best player on the court. Momo Jones? Derrick Williams, who made millions of dollars that day. Austin Freeman? Greg Monroe, who had more points than Freeman, just as many assists, and fewer turnovers. Scottie Reynolds? Daunte Cunningham. Ty Lawson? That guy everyone in the Association wants to punch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hansbrough). Dez Wells? Alex Len, who owned Mason in our first loss to them. Are we any closer to the truth with my narrative? Of course not.

Bad things happen in losses. THAT'S WHY THEY END UP BEING LOSSES. Instead of looking for a through-line in a half dozen bad games over as many years, look at our performance in wins as well. There are lots, lots more of those. Remember the origin of "alarmingly unathletic"? That was Gottlieb, Thanksgiving 2009, when Duke and Connecticut were on a collision course to play in the final of the preseason tournament. Duke looked earthbound; Connecticut looked Kemba-fast. Duke won that game.

I think you guys are both right to an extent. On the one hand, we certainly have been taken to the woodshed by a number of great big men over the years. But on the other, I think it's fair to assert that given Coach K's predilection for great shooters at the guard spots, we often end up lacking in the quickness department. A certain New Jersey trio is clearly an exception here, but those guys only seem to come along once a decade.

What was frustrating to me about our defense yesterday (and throughout much of the season) was that we fell apart when they repeatedly ran high ball screen plays. To me, defending that correctly is as much about the quickness of the big man as it is the guard. With the number of "long" wings we'll have in the rotation next year, I predict we'll be better in this regard.

But at the same time, I sure am going to miss Mason's dunks. He had an awesome one on Dieng yesterday. Unfortunately, things went downhill from there.

Monmouth77
04-01-2013, 04:32 PM
Anyone who includes Joe Mazzulla on a list of unstoppably quick penetrators either has never watched Joe Mazzulla play basketball or is not trying his hardest to be truthful. Anyone who lists Lamont Jones as the critical reason for Duke's loss to Arizona in 2011 either does not know how to spell "Derrick Williams" or is not trying his hardest to be truthful.

Beyond that, LaceDarius Dunn's game was not based on penetration; he was a terrific shooter. The penetrator on the 2010 Baylor team was Tweety Carter, who scored 12 points on 12 shots with 4 turnovers. Duke split this season with both Shane Larkin and the Louisville guards. Duke blew out Temple and held Khalif Wyatt to 6 points. Duke beat Kansas last year with Tyshawn Taylor. Duke went 4-2 against Kendall Marshall. Duke beat Michigan State with Keith Appling both in 2011 and, um, TWO DAYS AGO.

Look, Duke has beaten tons of teams with quick, strong-handle guards. It has also lost to teams quarterbacked by Levance Fields, three-time Greater Pittsburgh Annual Pie-Eating Champion. The quick guard thing is just a narrative that happens to live on because teams with fast guards are better than teams with slow guards, and bad teams don't beat Duke. If we wanted to, we could make a narrative that Duke is undone by strong interior play. I could then mention that Pitt game with DeJuan Blair. I could mention last year's Ohio State game and how Sullinger's dominance broke the back of our defense. I could mention last year's Miami loss when Shane Larkin did nothing and Reggie Johnson scored 27. I could take almost every guard you list above and make his game a story about a big man that went off. 2013 Shane Larkin? Kenny Kadji, whose mobility and distance shooting killed us. Joe Mazzulla? Joe Alexander, who was everywhere in that game and the best player on the court. Momo Jones? Derrick Williams, who made millions of dollars that day. Austin Freeman? Greg Monroe, who had more points than Freeman, just as many assists, and fewer turnovers. Scottie Reynolds? Daunte Cunningham. Ty Lawson? That guy everyone in the Association wants to punch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hansbrough). Dez Wells? Alex Len, who owned Mason in our first loss to them. Are we any closer to the truth with my narrative? Of course not.

Bad things happen in losses. THAT'S WHY THEY END UP BEING LOSSES. Instead of looking for a through-line in a half dozen bad games over as many years, look at our performance in wins as well. There are lots, lots more of those. Remember the origin of "alarmingly unathletic"? That was Gottlieb, Thanksgiving 2009, when Duke and Connecticut were on a collision course to play in the final of the preseason tournament. Duke looked earthbound; Connecticut looked Kemba-fast. Duke won that game.

I've got a through-line for you. No one can beat Pitino teams wearing strangely patterned shorts. Yesterday's ugly camo shorts ought to be fresh in everyone's mind but to make it a "trend" consider those wildcat striped umbros that Kentucky wore as they stormed to the title in 1996. Maybe they'll even play Syracuse in the finals. It'll be Deja Vu all over again.

rsvman
04-01-2013, 04:33 PM
It was an uphill battle from the get-go. Duke played admirably, and could've won, but it would've taken A-plus execution in the 2nd half, which we didn't see. Other than a spurt at the beginning of the 2nd half, Curry was a non-factor, and while Cook elevated his play relative to the earlier tournament games, it wasn't enough to make up for a silenced Curry.
......

I've been thinking about this, and I think I respectfully disagree. During the game, I was saying the same thing as you likely were: "We've got to get Curry involved!"

But think about this: but for some poor execution in the last 95 seconds or so of the first half, we would've gone into halftime at worst tied and perhaps a point or two ahead. This despite NO production whatsoever from Curry.

How did this happen? I think that shutting down Curry was the focal point of Pitino's half-court defensive plan. Make 'em beat us without Curry! OK, but to do that comes with a cost. It's kind of like how having a guy like Randy Moss on your football team opens things up for your mid-length passes and makes your passing game better even if you NEVER throw a ball to Moss. Because they were expending so much energy trying to shut down Curry, and spending so much time on perimeter defense, we were able to get some very efficient offensive looks; mostly back-door or behind-the-defender layups, alley-oops, etc. Curry was an excellent distraction, if you will.

I think Coach K's first-half plan was brilliant. It was to keep Louisville out of its comfort zone (running, quick-tempo, multiple steals, points off turnovers, etc). When they get going like this they are hard to stop. They steal the ball, make a layup, and they press out of made baskets. The way to beat Louisville is to not turn the ball over, and to play a deliberate offensive set that doesn't allow them their tempo. On the defensive side, you force them into a jump shooting contest; they miss a lot of shots, and they don't generally press on missed shots.

Anyway, the game plan was derailed by the foul trouble on Kelly. With Kelly, we break the press much better. Once the ball was in the frontcourt (i.e., the press was beaten), most teams continue to play like their house is on fire. Coach K deliberately, I think, told the guys that even after breaking the press, they were to keep the offense slow and methodical; pass it around and be patient, look for good shots, pull them out on our shooters and then pass behind them to the bigs for layups, alley-oops, and dunks.

And it WORKED. Even with Kelly out and ten turnovers, we were well within shouting distance and could've been ahead or tied. Had Kelly not been in foul trouble we probably would've had 2 or 3 fewer turnovers, and one or two more chippies, and we probably would've had a halftime lead. And this WITHOUT any offensive production from Curry! But Curry was doing his job, garnering so much attention from their defense that we were able to sneak in the easy shots behind the D.

Maybe we should've stuck with this plan in the second half, too.

NSDukeFan
04-01-2013, 04:43 PM
I thought Duke lost to a very good team yesterday. As others have stated, the biggest problem defensively was the team's inability to stop Smith and Siva from penetrating. I am not sure it has much to do with Cook, Thornton and Sulaimon's foot speed. I thought Sulaimon especially did a wonderful job keeping his opponent in front of him...until he was screened. I don't know if the Louisville guards use screens better than most teams, if the bigs set better ones, or if Duke's bigs didn't do as good a job of hedging as in previous games, but Siva and Smith were lightning in the top screen plays. I do hope Cook and the Duke guards learn from how well Louisville's guards used those high screens. I expect that not having Duke's best hedging big (Kelly) available all the time didn't help in this regard (though he did get beat by the lightning quick guards at times as well, and unfortunately got in the way when Siva's head drove into him for his third unfortunate foul.)
I was very impressed with the Louisville guards' defensive quickness. I don't know if it was both Siva and Smith or just one of them that did this, but it was something I had never seen before. They did a kind of reverse run and jump. When Cook dribbled and turned away from the off guard, he didn't go straight at Cook hoping he would turn back like a normal run and jump, but sprinted to the side Cook had turned away from him and around his own on-the-ball defender to get to the other side of the play and make Cook turn back. You have to be extremely fast to pull something like that off and have good on-the-ball pressure to keep the ballhandler under control. Extremely impressive, in my mind. It was also impressive, and frustrating, to see Cook or Sulaimon make a great move past their defender, get all the way to the hoop, only to have Dieng reject the lay-up.
The other thing that Duke didn't do very often was make Louisville pay for pressing. I don't know if that would have been a good strategy though as then you are playing Louisville's preferred frenetic game. A couple of the times that Duke did beat the press it required some very difficult, long cross-court passes to do it. Again, having Kelly for more minutes would have helped, though I thought Mason was outstanding handling against the pressure when he had to.
The other big problem, of course, was the team's inability to hit the open shots when they were there and were needed when Louisville made its run. Someone on this board posted that Louisville had the best defense that Pomeroy had ever recorded, but I felt that Duke was, for the most part, able to get shots, but it was Louisville's offense that Duke couldn't stop. I actually felt Sulaimon had a wonderful game, but just couldn't get his shot to fall. I loved seeing his aggressive play on both ends, but it just wasn't his day, in terms of the ball going through the net. I also thought Thornton was wonderful handling the Louisville pressure and feel that he may not be able to outquick a lot of guys, he is so smart and dependable that he can get valuable minutes against anyone and be a benefit to the team. Cook was also generally solid against the pressure but also couldn't get his shot to fall.
I am looking forward to having Syracuse and Louisville in the ACC because they present such different styles that Duke teams will benefit from playing against each year.
Great season that ended on a disappointing note (as they do for all but one team.)

Native
04-01-2013, 07:04 PM
I've been thinking about this, and I think I respectfully disagree. During the game, I was saying the same thing as you likely were: "We've got to get Curry involved!"

But think about this: but for some poor execution in the last 95 seconds or so of the first half, we would've gone into halftime at worst tied and perhaps a point or two ahead. This despite NO production whatsoever from Curry.

How did this happen? I think that shutting down Curry was the focal point of Pitino's half-court defensive plan. Make 'em beat us without Curry! OK, but to do that comes with a cost. It's kind of like how having a guy like Randy Moss on your football team opens things up for your mid-length passes and makes your passing game better even if you NEVER throw a ball to Moss. Because they were expending so much energy trying to shut down Curry, and spending so much time on perimeter defense, we were able to get some very efficient offensive looks; mostly back-door or behind-the-defender layups, alley-oops, etc. Curry was an excellent distraction, if you will.

I think Coach K's first-half plan was brilliant. It was to keep Louisville out of its comfort zone (running, quick-tempo, multiple steals, points off turnovers, etc). When they get going like this they are hard to stop. They steal the ball, make a layup, and they press out of made baskets. The way to beat Louisville is to not turn the ball over, and to play a deliberate offensive set that doesn't allow them their tempo. On the defensive side, you force them into a jump shooting contest; they miss a lot of shots, and they don't generally press on missed shots.

Anyway, the game plan was derailed by the foul trouble on Kelly. With Kelly, we break the press much better. Once the ball was in the frontcourt (i.e., the press was beaten), most teams continue to play like their house is on fire. Coach K deliberately, I think, told the guys that even after breaking the press, they were to keep the offense slow and methodical; pass it around and be patient, look for good shots, pull them out on our shooters and then pass behind them to the bigs for layups, alley-oops, and dunks.

And it WORKED. Even with Kelly out and ten turnovers, we were well within shouting distance and could've been ahead or tied. Had Kelly not been in foul trouble we probably would've had 2 or 3 fewer turnovers, and one or two more chippies, and we probably would've had a halftime lead. And this WITHOUT any offensive production from Curry! But Curry was doing his job, garnering so much attention from their defense that we were able to sneak in the easy shots behind the D.

Maybe we should've stuck with this plan in the second half, too.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Jackson
04-01-2013, 07:08 PM
I keep thinking the loss was my fault yesterday. I went to my neighbor's house to watch the game when it was tied up at 42. As soon as I arrived in his living room, the wheels fell off.

Dukeface88
04-01-2013, 07:25 PM
One bummer about some of our recent NCAA tournament losses is our penchant for leading or being within a basket at the half and then getting our doors blown off in the second half.

2009 - Villanova - down 3 at half, lose by 23
2011 - Arizona - up 6 at half, lose by 16
2013 - Louisville - down 3 at half, lose by 22

Would you guys rather lose a close game or get creamed in the second half? It's a lose-lose scenario, but I am not sure which is worse. The close loss stings because you always feel you could have done something to win. But the blowouts make you feel a different form of malaise.

I think there's a (sligtly less un-) happy medium. The close losses sting, but I'd like to keep the margin at least somewhat respectable. Losing by, say, 10ish looks a lot better than losing by 20+ without being heartbreaking.

jv001
04-01-2013, 07:56 PM
Louisville runs the true "40 minutes of hell" defense. No one comes close to them when it comes to executing the press. The game came down to whether we turn the ball over or not. We did-they won. Louisville may be the quickest team that I've seen since UCLA and Walt Hazzard. GoDuke!

jkidd31
04-01-2013, 08:25 PM
I have to say the only thing I'm upset about is the fact we got stuck in this bracket. Hats off to Louisville, with the game tied at 42 they kicked it into another gear. I do wish we could have made a couple shots to at least make them think about it.

Best Wishes to a great Senior Class. Mason should be held up as an example to guys with athletic potential staying around and developing. He made himself a lot of money this year.

BlueandWhite
04-01-2013, 08:42 PM
See jv001's post -- that's the main reason Duke lost the game. It's not unimportant that Duke frequently let Smith and Siva penetrate (or that their outside shooting was better than Duke's). However, it was much more important to the game 's outcome that the quicker and faster Louisville team played outstanding D, especially in the 2nd half. We couldn't handle that press, and couldn't create very many easy shots in the 2nd half.

Papa John
04-01-2013, 09:11 PM
One bummer about some of our recent NCAA tournament losses is our penchant for leading or being within a basket at the half and then getting our doors blown off in the second half.

2009 - Villanova - down 3 at half, lose by 23
2011 - Arizona - up 6 at half, lose by 16
2013 - Louisville - down 3 at half, lose by 22

Would you guys rather lose a close game or get creamed in the second half? It's a lose-lose scenario, but I am not sure which is worse. The close loss stings because you always feel you could have done something to win. But the blowouts make you feel a different form of malaise.

As long as we don't lay over and play dead, how we lose is largely irrelevant. I saw our guys fighting, giving good effort yesterday. Louisville was just the better team last night. Good season, wish it had gone a little longer, but there'll always be next year...

LBF
04-01-2013, 09:18 PM
This was a solid year and I liked our team. Louisville was the quicker team. Unfortunately, it seems like we concede that the quicker perimeter teams are just gonna give our defense trouble. Why not make an adjustment after the 10th screen and blow by. Is there no other defense we can employ to stop quicker teams from penetrating? It's frustrating to see no adjustments at all. Is frustrating to virtually always say the quicker team won, and call them the better team!

CatDevil
04-01-2013, 09:19 PM
9) Nothing proves my point more than the two losses to Maryland-- Duke lost at Maryland in a game that went down to the last shot, when Len had a much better game than Plumlee (while Wells played well, but wasn't dominant)... then on a neutral floor in North Carolina, Maryland won going away, when Wells simply decided to just drive the ball right through Duke's defense, every chance he got-- it was too much like the second half of this last Louisville game-- the opponent realized that they could do something that Duke couldn't do anything to stop-- so they just kept doing it, until they pretty much buried Duke.

I read this part of your post and could not ignore it. I attended the ACC Tournament game and it did not feel neutral AT ALL! I took my son to the game and the fans in front of me were wearing Lehigh shirts. The fellows and gal to my left light blue. Another sea of light blue to my right. I was sitting pretty close behind the basket in the Boston College section. There was a very large population of Maryland fans attending as well. I was pretty surprised by this but the hole fans were the loudest and most obnoxious. The old fellow beside my son did apologize to him after he began to cry. He was a little over the top and the profanity scared him. It was far worse than the Lehigh game! I really like taking the kids to the games, but lately it does seem more hostile. Or maybe I am getting old and being too sensitive!

At any rate the last two games I took in at the Greensboro Colliseum ended badly for Duke. I almost think I bring them bad luck. Next year I will more than likely try again and share that here as well. Attending the games sure does keep the HOLE-HATE going strong in our house!!!

A real quick shout out to all the posters here on the board. I lose thousands of hours of sleep during basketball season staying up late reading all the posts. Post basketball season I may have to check with a doctor here and see about a prescription to help with the withdrawals:p. Aside from watching the games DBR is the best experience I could have as a Fan!!!

drcharl
04-01-2013, 10:01 PM
OK. Don't know how many times I have heard it on news broadcast today, but the latest was on the ABC evening news. It was a story about what we all agree was the horrific injury . But the part I can do without hearing again and again is that the team rallied around their fallen comrade and were inspired by his words to go on and blast Duke. For all the reasons enumerated in this thread Duke would have lost without this accident happening. I guess it just makes a better story to tie the victory and the injury together, but I don't think it had any bearing on the outcome.

duke96
04-01-2013, 10:08 PM
I have to say the only thing I'm upset about is the fact we got stuck in this bracket. Hats off to Louisville, with the game tied at 42 they kicked it into another gear. I do wish we could have made a couple shots to at least make them think about it.

Best Wishes to a great Senior Class. Mason should be held up as an example to guys with athletic potential staying around and developing. He made himself a lot of money this year.

I agree with your first paragraph, but I don't see how Mason made himself any money this year. He began the year as an expected NPOY candidate and ended it not in the running. In fact, you could argue that if he were trying to maximize his draft positioning, in retrospect he should have entered after his sophomore year. As a fan of his and, of course, the team I am of course glad he stayed and would love to have him longer. But, as far as money goes, I don't see how this year helped him.

uh_no
04-01-2013, 10:24 PM
OK. Don't know how many times I have heard it on news broadcast today, but the latest was on the ABC evening news. It was a story about what we all agree was the horrific injury . But the part I can do without hearing again and again is that the team rallied around their fallen comrade and were inspired by his words to go on and blast Duke. For all the reasons enumerated in this thread Duke would have lost without this accident happening. I guess it just makes a better story to tie the victory and the injury together, but I don't think it had any bearing on the outcome.

I completely agree. I think we lose if the kid never even came to louisville. What's shocking is I think we're the second best team that was left....that's how good louisville is. We played really well to be tied at 42, then they decided enough was enough.

I wonder, and I wondered after the maryland game, why we didn't utilize any sort of zone like we did for a bit against miami...at least change something on defense....they wen't high ball screen every time down! At least we could have gone under the screen, because kelly wasn't up to the task on that switch....make them shoot threes (given they probably would have drained them....).

I think if we had done a better job with the press in the first half, we might have had a 3-5 point cushion at the half, and that could have changed the game....kinda dissapointing that it took until halftime to figure out how to not get trapped in the double team on the sideline (given kelly helped a decent amount).

best of luck to UL...they could play and beat anybody in the country.

Kedsy
04-01-2013, 10:30 PM
I agree with your first paragraph, but I don't see how Mason made himself any money this year. He began the year as an expected NPOY candidate and ended it not in the running.

Are you kidding? After last season he was at best a late first round pick. And he didn't begin the year in the conversation for any national recognition -- he put himself in the conversation in November by playing the best of any big man in the country against the toughest schedule played by anyone. Even after tailing off a bit for a few games in February and early March, he ended the seasons averaging 17 and 10 and has been named on several All America teams. Assuming he does well in the combines (which he will since that sort of thing is one of his biggest strengths) he should end up late lottery or at worst mid-first round, which makes him a ton of money over the early 2nd round he probably would have been last year. I honestly don't get how Mason gets so little respect around here sometimes.

sporthenry
04-01-2013, 10:48 PM
Are you kidding? After last season he was at best a late first round pick. And he didn't begin the year in the conversation for any national recognition -- he put himself in the conversation in November by playing the best of any big man in the country against the toughest schedule played by anyone. Even after tailing off a bit for a few games in February and early March, he ended the seasons averaging 17 and 10 and has been named on several All America teams. Assuming he does well in the combines (which he will since that sort of thing is one of his biggest strengths) he should end up late lottery or at worst mid-first round, which makes him a ton of money over the early 2nd round he probably would have been last year. I honestly don't get how Mason gets so little respect around here sometimes.

Agreed. But we are also now talking about NBA potential which isn't necessarily relevant to actual production. But if Miles goes 26th in a fairly deep draft, Mason will be right where you predict in a weak draft. But Mason is still a relatively unfinished product. Scouts love the potential and don't need big men to be all around players but more like Miles being very good at a few things. But I think as fans, fair or not, we see that potential and get a bit disappointed that it never completely materialized. Not that he didn't have a very good year, and I'm sure some will cite his statistics which are very good, but from the eye test, they probably could have been even better.

Reilly
04-01-2013, 10:56 PM
... recent NCAA tournament losses ...

2009 - Villanova - down 3 at half, lose by 23
2011 - Arizona - up 6 at half, lose by 16
2013 - Louisville - down 3 at half, lose by 22

....

During the Louisville game, I said "this reminds me of Seton Hall 1989" ...

1989 - Seton Hall - up 5 at half, lose by 17

MCFinARL
04-01-2013, 11:12 PM
Agreed. But we are also now talking about NBA potential which isn't necessarily relevant to actual production. But if Miles goes 26th in a fairly deep draft, Mason will be right where you predict in a weak draft. But Mason is still a relatively unfinished product. Scouts love the potential and don't need big men to be all around players but more like Miles being very good at a few things. But I think as fans, fair or not, we see that potential and get a bit disappointed that it never completely materialized. Not that he didn't have a very good year, and I'm sure some will cite his statistics which are very good, but from the eye test, they probably could have been even better.

Well, sure, players are human and could pretty much always do better, especially in the eyes of fans. But the original post was, in fact, directly related to whether Mason had helped himself in NBA terms by returning to Duke, and Kedsy correctly pointed out that, at the time of the NBA draft last year, no one was talking about Mason as a potential NPOY candidate or even an All-American. Whether or not Mason finished at the inflated level of expectations raised by his performance in the early games this season, he has unquestionably improved both his game and his NBA prospects.

sporthenry
04-01-2013, 11:22 PM
Well, sure, players are human and could pretty much always do better, especially in the eyes of fans. But the original post was, in fact, directly related to whether Mason had helped himself in NBA terms by returning to Duke, and Kedsy correctly pointed out that, at the time of the NBA draft last year, no one was talking about Mason as a potential NPOY candidate or even an All-American. Whether or not Mason finished at the inflated level of expectations raised by his performance in the early games this season, he has unquestionably improved both his game and his NBA prospects.

Well he was projected as 1st team All ACC and was a Wooden award finalist (granted the original list was 50) but it wasn't like nobody was talking about Mason as an All American.

As for his NBA stock, I'm actually interested whether he improved it much if at all. I don't agree that he cost himself money but if Miles went 26 and scouts have always liked Mason better, where would he have went? Perhaps Miles is more of an outlier since Indiana probably reached on him but if Miles was 26 than Mason probably would have went around the late teens. He is currently projected as late lottery to late teens. He probably jumped up from mid to late 1st round to mid 1st round but I wouldn't say this year cost or made him a lot of money.

UrinalCake
04-01-2013, 11:42 PM
Are you kidding? After last season he was at best a late first round pick. And he didn't begin the year in the conversation for any national recognition -- he put himself in the conversation in November by playing the best of any big man in the country against the toughest schedule played by anyone. Even after tailing off a bit for a few games in February and early March, he ended the seasons averaging 17 and 10 and has been named on several All America teams. Assuming he does well in the combines (which he will since that sort of thing is one of his biggest strengths) he should end up late lottery or at worst mid-first round, which makes him a ton of money over the early 2nd round he probably would have been last year. I honestly don't get how Mason gets so little respect around here sometimes.

On top of that, his chances of signing a SECOND contract have gone up dramatically after the development he's been able to make this year. Just his free throw shooting alone has made a huge difference in his value to a team. I feel pretty confident he'll be on an NBA team 5-6 years from now, whereas if he had left after his junior or even sophomore year, he might have gotten drafted but likely would have ridden the pine or been sent to the NBDL and then never really gotten any serious run.

Kedsy
04-01-2013, 11:56 PM
Well he was projected as 1st team All ACC and was a Wooden award finalist (granted the original list was 50) but it wasn't like nobody was talking about Mason as an All American.

As for his NBA stock, I'm actually interested whether he improved it much if at all. I don't agree that he cost himself money but if Miles went 26 and scouts have always liked Mason better, where would he have went? Perhaps Miles is more of an outlier since Indiana probably reached on him but if Miles was 26 than Mason probably would have went around the late teens. He is currently projected as late lottery to late teens. He probably jumped up from mid to late 1st round to mid 1st round but I wouldn't say this year cost or made him a lot of money.

Or, perhaps Indiana would have reached for Mason at #26 and Miles would have gone in the 2nd round. I don't think you can look at the pre-draft mocks and think that Mason would have gone late teens last year. He'd have been lucky to get late first round. Put another way, he was not expected to be "mid to late 1st round," he was expected to be late first round or more likely early 2nd round. In light of Indiana's interest in Miles, maybe late first round was (in retrospect) more likely, but maybe not. Now he's definitely mid-first round and maybe late lottery. I maintain he made himself a fair amount of coin.

Saratoga2
04-02-2013, 08:23 AM
Well, sure, players are human and could pretty much always do better, especially in the eyes of fans. But the original post was, in fact, directly related to whether Mason had helped himself in NBA terms by returning to Duke, and Kedsy correctly pointed out that, at the time of the NBA draft last year, no one was talking about Mason as a potential NPOY candidate or even an All-American. Whether or not Mason finished at the inflated level of expectations raised by his performance in the early games this season, he has unquestionably improved both his game and his NBA prospects.

When Ryan was injured, Mason had his orders not to pick up fouls, so his defense suffered, particularly his help side. I think it threw him into a situation where he wasn't confident that he could mix it up without fouling. The last games going down the stretch, Mason was returning to his defensive prowess and had a number of fine games. Against Louisville there was the bugaboo of foul trouble again. The point is that Mason's defense should not be judged based on games in which the coaches asked him not to foul.

His foul shooting, while not text book, did improve. He is highly athletic and didn't miss games. He is in excellent condition. He mainly dunks and uses the hook shot. He is okay handling the ball for a big man but is turnover prone when dribbling in the front court and never has been able to develop any kind of mid range shot. Can the pros help him develop a mid range shot? Maybe, but some guys just don't have the composure to relax when shooting under pressure.

From what I saw of Mason this year I would say he was one of the two best players on the team along with Seth and he was the best pro candidate on the team. I expect him to go in the middle of the first round.

Billy Dat
04-02-2013, 09:59 AM
On top of that, his chances of signing a SECOND contract have gone up dramatically after the development he's been able to make this year. Just his free throw shooting alone has made a huge difference in his value to a team. I feel pretty confident he'll be on an NBA team 5-6 years from now, whereas if he had left after his junior or even sophomore year, he might have gotten drafted but likely would have ridden the pine or been sent to the NBDL and then never really gotten any serious run.

This is a key point, and I think there are really two different questions:

-When should a player leave in order to maximize his draft spot and guaranteed money on his rookie contract?
-When should a player leave in order to maximize his potential career earnings?

The answers can sometimes be the same and sometimes be quite different. Because the NBA usually drafts on potential, Mason likely would have been drafted the highest had he left after his freshman year. At the time, his lack of playing time actually helped him because he was a highly touted prospect with all the physical tools who, it would have been assumed, was only held back by lack of PT. I recall many pundits predicting that he'd have been a sure lottery pick. The older a player gets in college, the more he is expected to dominate because of the physical difference between a freshman and a senior. It is part of why 25-year-old Kenny Kadji isn't a red hot draft prospect, and why scouts downgraded Shabazz Muhammed when it recently came out that he is 20 years old.

But, there is no doubt that Mason helped his long term career prospects by staying at Duke. The team defense principles that he learned at Duke, alone, will make him a valuable asset. Like any player, he'll have to quickly figure out the skill set that is going to keep him in the league, and hone that skill set so that he can deliver the expected production in whatever minutes he gets, but the 4 years he put in at Duke, and his experience this year as "the man" has dramatically improved his chances to play 10 years in the league as long as he stays healthy.

MCFinARL
04-02-2013, 10:46 AM
On top of that, his chances of signing a SECOND contract have gone up dramatically after the development he's been able to make this year. Just his free throw shooting alone has made a huge difference in his value to a team. I feel pretty confident he'll be on an NBA team 5-6 years from now, whereas if he had left after his junior or even sophomore year, he might have gotten drafted but likely would have ridden the pine or been sent to the NBDL and then never really gotten any serious run.

This is a much better, clearer way to make the point I was trying to make when I noted how Mason has improved his game. On balance, it's indisputable that Mason didn't hurt himself by staying, even though he now has a year less "potential" in NBA terms, and it's pretty clear that overall he helped himself, probably both now and later, but definitely later. An extra bonus is that he avoided possibly hurting Miles by going into the same draft.

greybeard
04-02-2013, 11:26 AM
When Ryan was injured, Mason had his orders not to pick up fouls, so his defense suffered, particularly his help side. I think it threw him into a situation where he wasn't confident that he could mix it up without fouling. The last games going down the stretch, Mason was returning to his defensive prowess and had a number of fine games. Against Louisville there was the bugaboo of foul trouble again. The point is that Mason's defense should not be judged based on games in which the coaches asked him not to foul.

His foul shooting, while not text book, did improve. He is highly athletic and didn't miss games. He is in excellent condition. He mainly dunks and uses the hook shot. He is okay handling the ball for a big man but is turnover prone when dribbling in the front court and never has been able to develop any kind of mid range shot. Can the pros help him develop a mid range shot? Maybe, but some guys just don't have the composure to relax when shooting under pressure.

From what I saw of Mason this year I would say he was one of the two best players on the team along with Seth and he was the best pro candidate on the team. I expect him to go in the middle of the first round.

The mid range shot, or seeming lack of one, is a big concern. Whether he has one or not, is difficult to say. Mason was the inside presence on offense for Duke. He scored well to very well inside, put pressure on opponents to help in the paint, made the other team's inside player work very, very hard and drew fouls, sometimes by the boatload. Can you afford to have this guy shooting 10-15 footers, even if he has that shot to a reasonable degree and even when it would enhance his ability to get to the basket considerable, assuming that his skill at the shot demanding that it be guarded? No.

Is it likely that he needs to find more in that range to be really impactful in the NBA, yes. in addition to the improved foul shooting, he showed an awful lot this year in attacking the basket from the 10-13 give or take 15 foot range this year not shown before. His carriage this year was exceptional. Very confident that what he brings is formidable, steely confidence that he will with all he has "take you on" with all he can give, which he knows should and will make the other guy pause, no matter who you are. Perhaps the biggest and most impressive change Mason brought coming in and showed until the end this year.

We'll see.