Thoughts on the Creighton game from the one Creighton fan on this board

[jaysfan1]

This was a message I originally sent as a reply to a pvt message sent to me by a Duke supporter just telling me good game. I wanted to post my response I sent to him on here publicly for everyone else to see too.

Thoughts on the game:
It was definitely a back yard brawl that's for sure. I thought the refs called way too tight of a game on both sides of the floor. It was difficult for either team to get any momentum going which in the end I think really hindered Creighton. They are a team known for going on runs and scoring in bunches which they just couldn't do on Sunday night. I also really thought Doug was forcing a lot of shots which he doesn't normally do. But then again no one around him could hit the broad side of a barn so I can't really blame him. At times it almost seemed like the rest of the Jays were just standing around waiting for McDermott to make a move and win the game on his own. You can't win games that way and that's the first time I've seen the Jays do that all season. A lot of that I think you have to chalk up to playing a team like Duke in a prime-time game like that.

I was a little disappointed in some of the supporting cast for CU. The only 2 guys I thought played a decent game other than Doug was Gibbs and Echenique. But ultimately all 3 of them got in foul trouble and no one on the entire team could hit an outside shot which you just can't have happen against a team like Duke. I really got to give it up to Duke's defense. We all thought this might be a high scoring shootout based on what the two teams are capable of offensively. I really think Duke's D caught The Jays off guard and they just wouldn't allow them to get into any kind of rythem. That was the best defense I've ever seen played on McDermott and honestly some of the best team defense I've seen played in a long time period.

I gotta admit though.. I loved seeing Echenique hold his own against the Duke bigs. Especially Plumlee. Everytime Plumlee tried to do his dropstep move it was like he was running into a brick wall. I don't think many teams have been able to do that to him in his career. Ech is a senior this year so that is going to REALLY hurt Creighton in their move to the Big East. They don't have another big man like that who can play one on one defense vs anyone in the country.

I'm with you on the McDermott - Big East thing. I really hope he comes back but even if he does I think he'll struggle a little more than he has the past 3 years in The Valley. But I'm optimistic about the move. I think it will take Greg McDermott a few years to get Big East style recruits to match up. But once he does I believe CU will be in the top tier of the Big East every year. It may not seam like it but Omaha's actually a pretty enticing place for recruits to come play. CU plays in the CenturyLink Center which is an 17,000+ seat arena that is sold out for almost every home game. Last year CU was 7th in the nation in attendance and this year they're saying we could be in the top 5.

Good luck the rest of the way Dukies. I couldn't say that about UNC after the loss last year. The Duke fans I've talked to and seen on this board seam to have a lot of class which is severely lacking in a lot schools around the country (the Cincinnati fans I talked to on boards before and after our first round game were a joke by the way...) But I really hope you go far because I think that Duke is in a little different class than a lot of teams still in the tourney. Mich St will be a tough game but I think you'll pull that one out to move on to the Elite 8. L'Ville is an extremely tough team but just tell Coach K to keep up that defense and you guys will be fine:)

- jaysfan1

[weezie]

Welcome to DBR! Thank you for your excellent analysis and kind words. Stick around, please!

[OldPhiKap]

Thank you for your excellent posts, both before the game and your breakdown above. As you can tell, there is a lot of respect for Creighton and the MCDermotts here. This is not a knee-jerk, trash your opponent board and there is much about Creighton and McDermott's squads to be admired.

I agree that the refs took both teams out of their offensive flows. We certainly had to cut back on the number of possessions in order to battle the foul problems of Ryan and Mason. In the tourney, once you get out of your conference (and conference refs), there is a lot of adjusting a team needs to do because you get all styles of ref.

Please come back and post, either to discuss hoops in general or any particular team of interest. Would love to see our schools play again soon. Best of luck in the future.

OPK

[moonpie23]

yes, DO stick around..........good luck in your new conference...


anytime you wake up and just have that overwhelming desire to diss unc, come on in.....we'll be happy to share :)

[DukeAlumBS]

Welcome, and thank you very much. I appreciate your email. Here it is very different. Especially from a Duke fan or alum. I enjoy this forum, it keeps me from using my Army English I use at ESPN. Again, what you have seen as well. I had concerns about your team myself coming in to the game. You can refresh yourself on the Creighton forum. We, or most of us had concerns about your team. Thank you for the comment about the defense, this is what it boiled down to. Kelly was in heaven I read, he did not score much. But he punched his ticket that game. Thats what I love about this team. Unique compared to many I have known. Again, more power to you. I have now become a Creighton fan, and most definitely you have my vote in the Big East! My advice to you, read ESPN, do not listen to them!
Heck, sometime we do not listen to Duke grads there, who are announcers! LOL.
Thank you so much

Jimmy

[gwlaw99]

"Everytime Plumlee tried to do his dropstep move"

Plumlee has a drop step move?

[CDu]

Thoughts on the game:
It was definitely a back yard brawl that's for sure. I thought the refs called way too tight of a game on both sides of the floor. It was difficult for either team to get any momentum going which in the end I think really hindered Creighton. They are a team known for going on runs and scoring in bunches which they just couldn't do on Sunday night. I also really thought Doug was forcing a lot of shots which he doesn't normally do. But then again no one around him could hit the broad side of a barn so I can't really blame him. At times it almost seemed like the rest of the Jays were just standing around waiting for McDermott to make a move and win the game on his own. You can't win games that way and that's the first time I've seen the Jays do that all season. A lot of that I think you have to chalk up to playing a team like Duke in a prime-time game like that.

Firstly, thanks for your thoughtful commentary on the game. I agree with most everything you said in this post, but I think the bolded part can be debated. The lack of flow argument certainly holds, in that Creighton didn't look well-organized. Some of that was Duke's perimeter-defense, some may be the officiating.

However, I don't think it's fair to ignore the impact the officiating had on Duke. The incredibly tight calls (especially on post players) meant that we spent more time than usual without Kelly on the floor. And when he was in the game, he had to be hesitant with fouls. That took away our best option in defending McDermott, as well as our best option in spreading the floor for our guards on offense. We also had Mason in serious foul trouble (including a couple of very questionable calls) and eventually fouling out. We got 8-10 mpg less than usual from Mason, and his play was probably hindered by his foul trouble. The foul situation also played to Creighton's shooting strength, as it meant you guys were in the bonus and double-bonus much earlier than normal (shooting 16-18 from the line). Technically we shot more free throws, but half of those came in the final four minutes as Creighton was trailing by a lot and needed to foul to come back.

Now, we were fortunate that Jefferson had a terrific game defending McDermott. That, and some cold shooting by Creighton's normally terrific perimeter shooters was the difference (even with us struggling from the perimeter). But I don't think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered Creighton. I think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered both teams.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

Firstly, thanks for your thoughtful commentary on the game. .... But I don't think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered Creighton. I think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered both teams.

They way I read it, I don't think it was meant to say that only Creighton was hindered, but since the OP is a Creighton fan, they are only concerned with how it affected their team.

[BigWayne]

They way I read it, I don't think it was meant to say that only Creighton was hindered, but since the OP is a Creighton fan, they are only concerned with how it affected their team.
Right you are. I was amazed at how many nickel dime calls there were, right from the opening tip. It really dragged the game and both teams down, directly at first and indirectly later as guys had to sit and/or be protected.

[CDu]

They way I read it, I don't think it was meant to say that only Creighton was hindered, but since the OP is a Creighton fan, they are only concerned with how it affected their team.

That's certainly possible. I was just providing the insight from the Duke perspective in response.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'm with you on the McDermott - Big East thing. I really hope he comes back but even if he does I think he'll struggle a little more than he has the past 3 years in The Valley. But I'm optimistic about the move. I think it will take Greg McDermott a few years to get Big East style recruits to match up. But once he does I believe CU will be in the top tier of the Big East every year.
- jaysfan1

The way Creighton plays and the game is being called, the skys the limit. Just have your coach keep recruiting from the hockey and wrestling teams and you'll do fine playing Big East basketball.

[MChambers]

I still remember Tony Kornheiser writing that if Grant Hill had gone to a Big East school, they would have told him to put on 50 pounds and learn to give a foul.

[jafarr1]

Right you are. I was amazed at how many nickel dime calls there were, right from the opening tip. It really dragged the game and both teams down, directly at first and indirectly later as guys had to sit and/or be protected.

What was stranger is that the refs would call the ticky-tack stuff, but completely ignore pushes, slaps on the arms, holds while players went around screens, and any number of other things.

There was the one sequence where McDermott pushed off the Duke defender to get free (no call) and Thornton completely hacked McDermott on the ensuing shot (no call). Meanwhile, on Mason's fifth foul, he jumped straight up in the air, grazed Echnique with his knees on the way down, and was called for a foul.

Personally, I think this game was pretty evenly played. The only real difference was that Creighton missed a number of open looks at three-pointers; they could easily have gone 6-19 instead of 2-19 from three-point range. If that happens, it's a completely different game down the stretch.

[Wander]

The way Creighton plays and the game is being called, the skys the limit. Just have your coach keep recruiting from the hockey and wrestling teams and you'll do fine playing Big East basketball.

Despite the game against Duke and the immature whining of Carolina fans regarding the Marshall injury last year, Creighton does not foul often, play dirty, or even play particularly physical relative to other teams.

[ice-9]

The way Creighton plays and the game is being called, the skys the limit. Just have your coach keep recruiting from the hockey and wrestling teams and you'll do fine playing Big East basketball.

jaysfan1, Wheat is a UNC fan posting on a Duke forum in case you weren't aware.

[Kedsy]

Despite the game against Duke and the immature whining of Carolina fans regarding the Marshall injury last year, Creighton does not foul often, play dirty, or even play particularly physical relative to other teams.

I didn't think Creighton played dirty at all, but I did think they were a very physical team, both against Cincinnati and against us. To me, Duke/Creighton felt like a boxing match. I agree with CDu that the tight officiating hindered both teams.

[jaysfan1]

Firstly, thanks for your thoughtful commentary on the game. I agree with most everything you said in this post, but I think the bolded part can be debated. The lack of flow argument certainly holds, in that Creighton didn't look well-organized. Some of that was Duke's perimeter-defense, some may be the officiating.

Now, we were fortunate that Jefferson had a terrific game defending McDermott. That, and some cold shooting by Creighton's normally terrific perimeter shooters was the difference (even with us struggling from the perimeter). But I don't think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered Creighton. I think it's fair to say that the officiating clearly hindered both teams.

I agree that the officiating affected both teams. And I'm not saying that CU got more calls than Duke did. What I'm saying is that Creighton HAS to go on those 10-0 type of runs in order to stay in a game like this. Duke is a more balanced / consistent team whereas Creighton on the other hand scores in spurts. Sometimes they'll go 5 or 6 minutes without a basket and then all of a sudden score 4 threes in a row to get back in a game. That's why I think a tightly officiated game like that will hinder a team like Creighton because they never have a chance to go on a run. The game was a slow-paced battle which plays more to Duke's advantage. The Mo Valley is a run n' gun type of conference so the teams are built to shoot the ball lights out. When that's not happening, they're at a severe disadvantage because bigger teams like Duke can just wear them down.

[CDu]

I agree that the officiating affected both teams. And I'm not saying that CU got more calls than Duke did. What I'm saying is that Creighton HAS to go on those 10-0 type of runs in order to stay in a game like this. Duke is a more balanced / consistent team whereas Creighton on the other hand scores in spurts. Sometimes they'll go 5 or 6 minutes without a basket and then all of a sudden score 4 threes in a row to get back in a game. That's why I think a tightly officiated game like that will hinder a team like Creighton because they never have a chance to go on a run. The game was a slow-paced battle which plays more to Duke's advantage. The Mo Valley is a run n' gun type of conference so the teams are built to shoot the ball lights out. When that's not happening, they're at a severe disadvantage because bigger teams like Duke can just wear them down.

Except that the bolded text is not really true. Duke is very similar to Creighton in that we also are a "team of runs." Our offense comes and goes, and on average ends up being really good. But we certainly go for stretches of the game without a field goal, only to run off several 3s or baskets in a row to go on a run. That is also true for Creighton. So to say that Duke's flow wasn't affected by the officiating while Creighton's was is inaccurate. Offensively, the two teams are very similar. It's on the defensive end where the differences arise (i.e., Duke's better defensively).

As for the "run 'n gun" nature of the MVC, that may or may not be true, but it is not really applicable here. Creighton was #218 in tempo according to Pomeroy, whereas Duke was #92. In other words, Duke actually plays at a faster pace than Creighton. Creighton actually seems to prefer to play at a slower pace than Duke, not faster. So from a tempo perspective, the officiating would theoretically have slightly helped Creighton. Though I don't think Duke cares which pace they play at, so I don't think this was a big negative for Duke.

As for Duke's size, note that the nature of the officiating (leaving Duke with Kelly and Mason in foul trouble) actually made us a smaller team than Creighton. In fact, the only place we're bigger than Creighton is at starting PF, and that difference in size (between Kelly and McDermott) is minimal. Furthermore, Kelly isn't the type of player that can really exploit a 1-2 inch height advantage, especially against a player as good as McDermott. Now, theoretically, we'd have had a big advantage with Mason whenever Echenique was out of the game, but Coach McDermott rarely let that situation happen. He made sure to sub Echenique back in whenever Mason went into the game (and his job was made easier because Mason had to come out often with foul trouble). Duke certainly didn't win this game by wearing Creighton down with size. We won this game by harassing Creighton on the perimeter and by having Curry and Sulaimon do just enough shooting to get the win.

To summarize: the foul trouble broke up the offensive rhythm for both teams. And the foul trouble for Duke was concentrated entirely on our frontcourt players, which robbed us of any theoretical advantage in size. I tend to think that the officiating tenor of the game favored Creighton slightly (even though the officiating was bad both ways to a similar degree). One could quibble on the margins of that statement, but I don't see any aspect in which the officiating did a huge disservice to Creighton in a way that it didn't also hurt Duke.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Despite the game against Duke and the immature whining of Carolina fans regarding the Marshall injury last year, Creighton does not foul often, play dirty, or even play particularly physical relative to other teams.

I'm a fan of college basketball and I'd like to see the beauty of the game return to a game of speed, skill and sound fundamentals.

A foul is a foul, call them all until the players stop fouling. They will stop when they realize they cannot stay on the floor unless they don't foul. The Big Least is notorious for playing "physical" and Creighton should fit right in.

It's my opinion that teams that resort to "playing physical", do so to cover up for a lack of skill and fundamentals, or they don't have the talent to stay with the player they are guarding, and that cheapens the game.

I don't think Creighton plays "dirty" either. Nobody on their team is out to hurt anyone. And I didn't bring up KM's injury and have certainly never whinned about it.

But since you brought it up, it is the perfect example of "physical" play by defender (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=D0FGb4ErJ6k&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD0FGb4ErJ6k) who was beat on a play.
He wasn't quick enough to close out the driving angle, he wasn't athletic enough to challenge the shot. He was "tough" enough and "physical" enough to give a forearm push on a player in the air, and hope it wouldn't be called, and unfortunately it resulted in a player injury.

That whole game was about playing "physical" for Creighton, that's their game. That Duke game was like last years UNC game, just nobody got hurt.

I see that same strategy way too much in the college game. Rick Barnes has made a career of it, and I say it sucks.

[TruBlu]

I'm a fan of college basketball and I'd like to see the beauty of the game return to a game of speed, skill and sound fundamentals.

A foul is a foul, call them all until the players stop fouling. They will stop when they realize they cannot stay on the floor unless they don't foul.

Agree with Wheat on this part of his post. However, the middle of the NCAA tourney is not the place to change how tightly games are being called.

The proper way to get a handle on the rough play is for the NCAA to announce in the off-season that they are going to clean up the college game by calling it more tightly, and then follow up by overseeing the refs and making sure they are all calling all games the same way in all the conferences that year.

[wilko]

I'm a fan of college basketball and I'd like to see the beauty of the game return to a game of speed, skill and sound fundamentals.

A foul is a foul, call them all until the players stop fouling. They will stop when they realize they cannot stay on the floor unless they don't foul. The Big Least is notorious for playing "physical" and Creighton should fit right in.

It's my opinion that teams that resort to "playing physical", do so to cover up for a lack of skill and fundamentals, or they don't have the talent to stay with the player they are guarding, and that cheapens the game.

I say it sucks.

I don't often agree with Wheat/"/"/"; but when I do,... Its because he happens to get get it right. :-P
In all seriousness - 10k% behind you

[jaysfan1]

I'm a fan of college basketball and I'd like to see the beauty of the game return to a game of speed, skill and sound fundamentals.

A foul is a foul, call them all until the players stop fouling. They will stop when they realize they cannot stay on the floor unless they don't foul. The Big Least is notorious for playing "physical" and Creighton should fit right in.

It's my opinion that teams that resort to "playing physical", do so to cover up for a lack of skill and fundamentals, or they don't have the talent to stay with the player they are guarding, and that cheapens the game.

I don't think Creighton plays "dirty" either. Nobody on their team is out to hurt anyone. And I didn't bring up KM's injury and have certainly never whinned about it.

But since you brought it up, it is the perfect example of "physical" play by defender (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=D0FGb4ErJ6k&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD0FGb4ErJ6k) who was beat on a play.
He wasn't quick enough to close out the driving angle, he wasn't athletic enough to challenge the shot. He was "tough" enough and "physical" enough to give a forearm push on a player in the air, and hope it wouldn't be called, and unfortunately it resulted in a player injury.

That whole game was about playing "physical" for Creighton, that's their game. That Duke game was like last years UNC game, just nobody got hurt.

I see that same strategy way too much in the college game. Rick Barnes has made a career of it, and I say it sucks.

Wheat - You're right, there are teams out there who are way too physical and may make up for their lack of basketball ability by pushing people around. But you need to get your facts straight before putting Creighton in that same category. You've obviously never seen them play a game other than the UNC game last year and Duke this year. McDermott and the rest of the Jays are about the furthest thing from being physical as you can get. In fact for years they've been getting pushed around by teams like Wichita St, Illinois St and S Illinois in the Mo Valley. The thing that make CU great is their shooting ability, coaching and overall basketball IQ. Much like Duke does, they play to their advantages.

And since you brought it up.. the Duke fans on here have never once complained about the game on Sunday being "too physical". I've never got the feeling from them that Creighton lacked the talent that Duke has so CU made up for it by fouling or with over-physical play. In fact everyone I've talked to before and after the game has appreciated the fact that it was such a hard fought battle and has wished the Jays nothing but luck going forward.

I don't remember any UNC fans last year wishing us luck moving forward... The only thing I remember is all the UNC fans calling out big, bad mid-major Creighton as these thugs out to get UNC.. Yes, one of your best players happened to get hurt on a clean play. Was it unfortunate? Yes. Was it a cheap shot? No. Get over it, it was over a year ago!

[Wander]

I didn't think Creighton played dirty at all, but I did think they were a very physical team, both against Cincinnati and against us. To me, Duke/Creighton felt like a boxing match. I agree with CDu that the tight officiating hindered both teams.



That whole game was about playing "physical" for Creighton, that's their game.

I just don't see it. I'm not even convinced that the Duke-Creighton game was particularly physical on Creighton's part - more just tighter than usual officiating and really good defense. I never got the impression that Creighton was more physical than your average ACC or BCS team from watching their other games either. Admittedly that's only a sample size of like 5 games throughout the year, but their statistical profile seems to back me up. On offense, they're one of the best - maybe THE best - all-around shooting teams in the country, they get a lot of their baskets on assists, don't rebound well, and don't get to the free throw line often. On defense, they rarely create turnovers or block shots, and (most relevantly) foul extremely rarely compared to other D1 teams. That doesn't like Wheat's assertion of a team that's so unskilled they need to resort to physical play. In fact, it sounds more like the exact opposite of that.

Wheat, you might be right that college basketball is too physical, but that's not because of teams like Creighton.

(if anyone remembers that random fan from Southern Illinois who came on this board a few years ago bragging about the "Saluki Hangover"... THAT'S a good example of a very physical MVC team)

[jaysfan1]

I just don't see it. I'm not even convinced that the Duke-Creighton game was particularly physical on Creighton's part - more just tighter than usual officiating and really good defense. I never got the impression that Creighton was more physical than your average ACC or BCS team from watching their other games either. Admittedly that's only a sample size of like 5 games throughout the year, but their statistical profile seems to back me up. On offense, they're one of the best - maybe THE best - all-around shooting teams in the country, they get a lot of their baskets on assists, don't rebound well, and don't get to the free throw line often. On defense, they rarely create turnovers or block shots, and (most relevantly) foul extremely rarely compared to other D1 teams. That doesn't like Wheat's assertion of a team that's so unskilled they need to resort to physical play. In fact, it sounds more like the exact opposite of that.

Thank you! I could not agree more!

Sincerely,
- someone who has watched every single game CU has played and knows exactly HOW they play... jaysfan1

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat - You're right, there are teams out there who are way too physical and may make up for their lack of basketball ability by pushing people around. But you need to get your facts straight before putting Creighton in that same category. You've obviously never seen them play a game other than the UNC game last year and Duke this year. McDermott and the rest of the Jays are about the furthest thing from being physical as you can get. In fact for years they've been getting pushed around by teams like Wichita St, Illinois St and S Illinois in the Mo Valley. The thing that make CU great is their shooting ability, coaching and overall basketball IQ. Much like Duke does, they play to their advantages.

And since you brought it up.. the Duke fans on here have never once complained about the game on Sunday being "too physical". I've never got the feeling from them that Creighton lacked the talent that Duke has so CU made up for it by fouling or with over-physical play. In fact everyone I've talked to before and after the game has appreciated the fact that it was such a hard fought battle and has wished the Jays nothing but luck going forward.

I don't remember any UNC fans last year wishing us luck moving forward... The only thing I remember is all the UNC fans calling out big, bad mid-major Creighton as these thugs out to get UNC.. Yes, one of your best players happened to get hurt on a clean play. Was it unfortunate? Yes. Was it a cheap shot? No. Get over it, it was over a year ago!

Coach K has been known to have his teams resort to playing "physical" at times too so don't be too surprised that some DBR fans are OK with a little holding and body checking being part of the "battle".

You are correct that I don't get to see Creighton play much. I am only basing my opinions on the times I've seen them play the past few years.

Your team was getting crushed when a cheap foul caused an injury to a key player that probably cost us a national title. And we remember the "tough" little point guard Rabb slapping at Henson's injured wrist after a foul had already been called for a body check, then winking to the bench after Henson's reaction got him a T.

If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I just don't see it. I'm not even convinced that the Duke-Creighton game was particularly physical on Creighton's part - more just tighter than usual officiating and really good defense. I never got the impression that Creighton was more physical than your average ACC or BCS team from watching their other games either. Admittedly that's only a sample size of like 5 games throughout the year, but their statistical profile seems to back me up. On offense, they're one of the best - maybe THE best - all-around shooting teams in the country, they get a lot of their baskets on assists, don't rebound well, and don't get to the free throw line often. On defense, they rarely create turnovers or block shots, and (most relevantly) foul extremely rarely compared to other D1 teams. That doesn't like Wheat's assertion of a team that's so unskilled they need to resort to physical play. In fact, it sounds more like the exact opposite of that.

Wheat, you might be right that college basketball is too physical, but that's not because of teams like Creighton.

(if anyone remembers that random fan from Southern Illinois who came on this board a few years ago bragging about the "Saluki Hangover"... THAT'S a good example of a very physical MVC team)

I'll agree that the game was not as "physical" as many I've seen this year, or last years UNC/Creighton game, but I saw a lot of holding and pushing in that Duke/Creighton game that wasn't called.

My rant is really more about the whole college game deteriorating to grab and push, not just the last game, but I sort of got sucked in here.

[jaysfan1]

Coach K has been known to have his teams resort to playing "physical" at times too so don't be too surprised that some DBR fans are OK with a little holding and body checking being part of the "battle".

You are correct that I don't get to see Creighton play much. I am only basing my opinions on the times I've seen them play the past few years.

Your team was getting crushed when a cheap foul caused an injury to a key player that probably cost us a national title. And we remember the "tough" little point guard Rabb slapping at Henson's injured wrist after a foul had already been called for a body check, then winking to the bench after Henson's reaction got him a T.

If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.

I don't want you to wish me good luck, I just want to stop hearing about something that happened over a year ago.

Say what you want about Wragge's forearm. It was unfortunate Marshall got hurt but it was not cheap.

The "wink" you referred to from Gibbs? I could make the same argument that it was simply because he got under Henson's skin and caused a technical foul. Who's to say the wink was because he was trying to hurt Henson? As a UNC fan, you are going to interpret things how you want to see them.

And as far as the national title goes.. Let's be honest here. There's no way UNC was beating Kentucky last year.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I don't want you to wish me good luck, I just want to stop hearing about something that happened over a year ago.

Say what you want about Wragge's forearm. It was unfortunate Marshall got hurt but it was not cheap.

The "wink" you referred to from Gibbs? I could make the same argument that it was simply because he got under Henson's skin and caused a technical foul. Who's to say the wink was because he was trying to hurt Henson? As a UNC fan, you are going to interpret things how you want to see them.

And as far as the national title goes.. Let's be honest here. There's no way UNC was beating Kentucky last year.

You're right, Wragge's foul cost UNC dearly, it certainly wasn't cheap. Forgive me.

Gibbs/Rabb whatever that forgettable players name was, knew what he was doing.

And thanks to Creighton's "physical" play, we'll never know whether UNC would have beaten KY last year.

What we do know is UNC beat the heck out of Creighton.

I'm OK with moving on, I'm tired of it being brought up too.

[MartyClark]

Only DBR would tolerate a, largely thoughtful, exchange between fans of two other schools. I like it.

[ricks68]

Until the last few posts by Wheat concerning how good the "holes were last year in the ncaa's, etc., I was in total agreement with him. Then he became too much of a homer for me.:rolleyes:

I thought that Creighton played very rough. Not dirty, but rough. I saw Kelly get clocked more than once and all of our players intentionally pushed with extended arms by different players for no-calls, especially by McDermott. He did it to create space for his shots, to go for rebounds, and to disrupt our player' shots. That's where I agreed with Wheat on his wrestling and hockey comments regarding Creighton recruiting.

I think both sides did a lot of holding on defense and the refs called a considerable amount of that, along with the touch fouls and apparantly ignoring the verticality rules (that hurt us a lot) that others mentioned.

Why the refs did not call the blatant pushing and shoving, while selectively enforcing the other stuff, I haven't a clue. I think that is a dangerous way to go. I was thinking during the game that if that happened in the pro's, the benches would have been cleared right after a few serious paybacks.

Again, I think Creighton was not dirty, just taking what the refs would give them after they found out they could get away with it. Great to have Tyler get away with the same on his payback, however. :)

ricks

[Mudge]

Coach K has been known to have his teams resort to playing "physical" at times too so don't be too surprised that some DBR fans are OK with a little holding and body checking being part of the "battle".

You are correct that I don't get to see Creighton play much. I am only basing my opinions on the times I've seen them play the past few years.

Your team was getting crushed when a cheap foul caused an injury to a key player that probably cost us a national title. And we remember the "tough" little point guard Rabb slapping at Henson's injured wrist after a foul had already been called for a body check, then winking to the bench after Henson's reaction got him a T.

If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.

I'm assuming that you count 1989 as a probable national championship year for Duke, too, then, eh Wheat? Duke was up by 18 over Seton Hall in the Final Four, before a bad foul (undercut/shove on a drive to the basket) injured Robert Brickey, one of only two Duke big(ger) players (although Brickey was no giant, he played forward and sometimes center for that Duke team), leaving Danny Ferry as Duke's only big man... Seton Hall went on to win, and then lost by 1 point in overtime in the Final to Michigan-- surely, if Duke was that much better than Seton Hall, Duke would have easily won that game, AND the Final, had it not been for that cheap shot by Seton Hall.

Also, as a UNC fan, I am sure you expected McAdoo to be assessed a flagrant technical foul, when he elbowed that Kansas player in the face, on the way up to shoot, in the first half last weekend, right? Just like Gerald Henderson got a flagrant foul (and an ejection) for Duke, after hitting Hansbrough's nose on the follow-through of that shot block attempt... in fact, I'll bet you expected that McAdoo should have been ejected from that game (and suspended from UNC's next game, had they managed to win that one), right? 'Cause we all know that you always maintain supreme, dispassionate perspective on these matters, right, Wheat? ('Cuz a angry man, he don't catch no feesh-- an old Southern proverb.)

[OldPhiKap]

If Creighton cost the Heels a Ntional Championship last year, they are now my favorite non-conference team.

But alas, I think it has more to do with the fact that Roy secretly wishes he was at Kansas, and that Bill Self is a better coach.


(Creighton is still pretty high, but it has nothing to do with UNC)

[tendev]

Coach K has been known to have his teams resort to playing "physical" at times too so don't be too surprised that some DBR fans are OK with a little holding and body checking being part of the "battle".

You are correct that I don't get to see Creighton play much. I am only basing my opinions on the times I've seen them play the past few years.

Your team was getting crushed when a cheap foul caused an injury to a key player that probably cost us a national title. And we remember the "tough" little point guard Rabb slapping at Henson's injured wrist after a foul had already been called for a body check, then winking to the bench after Henson's reaction got him a T.

If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.

Didn't they hang a NCAA Championship banner in the Dean Dome after that year. That makes 7.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'm assuming that you count 1989 as a probable national championship year for Duke, too, then, eh Wheat? Duke was up by 18 over Seton Hall in the Final Four, before a bad foul (undercut/shove on a drive to the basket) injured Robert Brickey, one of only two Duke big(ger) players (although Brickey was no giant, he played forward and sometimes center for that Duke team), leaving Danny Ferry as Duke's only big man... Seton Hall went on to win, and then lost by 1 point in overtime in the Final to Michigan-- surely, if Duke was that much better than Seton Hall, Duke would have easily won that game, AND the Final, had it not been for that cheap shot by Seton Hall.

Also, as a UNC fan, I am sure you expected McAdoo to be assessed a flagrant technical foul, when he elbowed that Kansas player in the face, on the way up to shoot, in the first half last weekend, right? Just like Gerald Henderson got a flagrant foul (and an ejection) for Duke, after hitting Hansbrough's nose on the follow-through of that shot block attempt... in fact, I'll bet you expected that McAdoo should have been ejected from that game (and suspended from UNC's next game, had they managed to win that one), right? 'Cause we all know that you always maintain supreme, dispassionate perspective on these matters, right, Wheat? ('Cuz a angry man, he don't catch no feesh-- an old Southern proverb.)

It must be the full moon...

So how did you feel about Seaton Hall after that game? Did you wish them luck?

McAdoo's play was clearly inadvertent.

Henderson's foul was clearly intentional, although I don't think it was meant to injure HanswhoownedU (Indian nickname), he was just trying to make a statement about his team being "tough".

Oh, and its a Zen proverb, not a southern thang.

[MChambers]

Coach K has been known to have his teams resort to playing "physical" at times too so don't be too surprised that some DBR fans are OK with a little holding and body checking being part of the "battle".

You are correct that I don't get to see Creighton play much. I am only basing my opinions on the times I've seen them play the past few years.

Your team was getting crushed when a cheap foul caused an injury to a key player that probably cost us a national title. And we remember the "tough" little point guard Rabb slapping at Henson's injured wrist after a foul had already been called for a body check, then winking to the bench after Henson's reaction got him a T.

If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.
Yes, and UNC has never played physical. Come on, this is silly. UNC and Duke aren't the least bit different as to physicality.

I just became a Creighton fan.

[Mudge]

It must be the full moon...

So how did you feel about Seaton Hall after that game? Did you wish them luck?

McAdoo's play was clearly inadvertent.

Henderson's foul was clearly intentional, although I don't think it was meant to injure HanswhoownedU (Indian nickname), he was just trying to make a statement about his team being "tough".

Oh, and its a Zen proverb, not a southern thang.

Clearly-- if you are wearing your Carolina-blue beer goggles... disinterested observers, on the other hand, viewing things perhaps more impartially than someone who seems to think that anything (short of LeBron deciding NOT to join the 2012 Tar Heels) "probably cost them a national title last year", would say that Henderson was clearly trying to block a shot, and just missed the ball... and that, at a minimum, McAdoo clearly should have received the Flagrant I foul that is technically mandated by the rules now, for any contact with the opponent above the shoulder, regardless of intent (in order to take this nebulous ruling out of the hands of the referees... and biased spectators).

Much like the Michigan State player (Nix) last weekend, who clocked a Memphis player across the mouth, when Nix missed on a shot block attempt-- Nix received a Flagrant I foul (by the letter of the rule), and continued on in that game... had this rule been in place in 2009, that is exactly what Henderson should have received, for exactly the same level of "intention", and he should have continued on in that game, as well as Duke's next game, in the ACC tournament. There was no real intention to hit the opponent in the face, by either Nix or Henderson-- Hansbooboo's unique ability to spout blood from every orifice at the slightest provocation, a` la Fire Marshal Bill or a Saturday Night Live skit, just made the situation seem more serious ("intentional") than it was.

I didn't "wish Seton Hall well", nor do I expect you to have wished Creighton well-- in your case, it would have been entirely pointless, as Creighton's season was over, after they lost to UNC... but I would like you to stop pretending that you see things any more clearly or impartially than the vast majority of irrational, xenophobic fans-- you just aren't that clear-eyed in your assessments, despite what you aver here.

Da angry man, he 'on't catch no feesh.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Yes, and UNC has never played physical. Come on, this is silly. UNC and Duke aren't the least bit different as to physicality.

I just became a Creighton fan.

I doubt you'll find many who think of UNC as playing a physical style, but yes, they have played that way on occasion. When they do, I'm OK with them being called for fouls too.

I disagree there's not a difference between UNC and Duke style of play. For instance, I don't see a player on UNC's roster that plays the role of Josh Hairston, just say in' ...when we did have a comparable player, say Ginyard or Jackie Manuel, they were never as physical as Josh.

It is silly how I allow myself to get dragged into these never ending comebacks.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Clearly-- if you are wearing your Carolina-blue beer goggles... disinterested observers, on the other hand, viewing things perhaps more impartially than someone who seems to think that anything (short of LeBron deciding NOT to join the 2012 Tar Heels) "probably cost them a national title last year", would say that Henderson was clearly trying to block a shot, and just missed the ball... and that, at a minimum, McAdoo clearly should have received the Flagrant I foul that is technically mandated by the rules now, for any contact with the opponent above the shoulder, regardless of intent (in order to take this nebulous ruling out of the hands of the referees... and biased spectators.)

Much like the Michigan State player (Nix) last weekend, who clocked a Memphis player across the mouth, when Nix missed on a shot block attempt-- Nix received a Flagrant I foul (by the letter of the rule), and continued on in that game... had this rule been in place in 2009, that is exactly what Henderson should have received, for exactly the same level of "intention", and he should have continued on in that game, as well as Duke's next game, in the ACC tournament. There was no real intention to hit the opponent in the face, by either Nix or Henderson-- Hansbooboo's unique ability to spout blood from every orifice at the slightest provocation, a` la Fire Marshal Bill or a Saturday Night Live skit, just made the situation seem more serious ("intentional") than it was.

I didn't "wish Seton Hall well", nor do I expect you to have wished Creighton well-- in your case, it would have been entirely pointless, as Creighton's season was over, after they lost to UNC... but I would like you to stop pretending that you see things any more clearly or impartially than the vast majority of irrational, xenophobic fans-- you just aren't that clear-eyed in your assessments, despite what you aver here.

Da angry man, he 'on't catch no feesh.

Are we off topic much?

Sure he was trying to block the shot. He was going to do whatever it took to not allow that basket. He was looking for payback and everybody knows it. It was an intentional foul. A very aggressive intentional foul.

I don't think he was trying to crack his nose and injure him, that was unfortunate, but make no mistake it was an intentional action to mug him like that.

Note: I know Ginyard/Manuel were not post players, just defensive specialist like Josh.

[Mudge]

I doubt you'll find many who think of UNC as playing a physical style, but yes, they have played that way on occasion. When they do, I'm OK with them being called for fouls too.

I disagree there's not a difference between UNC and Duke style of play. For instance, I don't see a player on UNC's roster that plays the role of Josh Hairston, just say in' ...when we did have a comparable player, say Ginyard or Jackie Manuel, they were never as physical as Josh.

It is silly how I allow myself to get dragged into these never ending comebacks.

While Hairston is relatively unskilled, and does commit his share of fouls through clumsiness (Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Warren Martin), he also gets called for a variety of fouls on plays where he is trying to set a screen or take a charge, perfectly legally, but like the Washington Generals, he is made the Whipping Boy for the refs-- they'd rather even out the foul calls by calling a moving screen on Hairston than on Plumlee-- they know Coach K is going to get much more vocal about a cheap foul on Plumlee or Kelly than on Hairston, so they often choose to make their point/even up the foul totals, by calling an unfair one on Hairston (as they did at least twice on Sunday night) than call it on somebody else-- Hairston is the designated faceless villain in the Tag Team match, just there to fill out the card, take his beating, and move on anonymously to the next match.

Oh, and let's not pretend that UNC hasn't had more than their share of near-seven foot brontosauruses over the years, whose main job was to camp under the offensive board and try to play volleyball with missed shots until the ball accidentally fell in the basket, regardless of their skill level... from Henson to Kris Lang to Warren Martin to Yon-Wolf-Sin, Carolina has excelled at finding lanky, unskilled beef to bat the ball at the basket repeatedly.

[Duvall]

Sure UNC has played a future All-Pro defensive lineman at power forward, but have they ever really had a player as physical as Josh Hairston?

[OldPhiKap]

For instance, I don't see a player on UNC's roster that plays the role of Josh Hairston, just say in'.

No, exactly what are you saying?


While Hairston . . . does commit his share of fouls through clumsiness (Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Warren Martin).

LOL, had not thought of him in years.

And I am sure that Julius Peppers played basketball because of his finesse. Anyone who believes that, I've got a degree in Swahili to sell you.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Sure UNC has played a future All-Pro defensive lineman at power forward, but have they ever really had a player as physical as Josh Hairston?

Now there was the exception to my argument. Well done bringing up Peppers.
He did have a physical game, but I'd argue he couldn't help it, he was born a beast.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

While Hairston is relatively unskilled, and does commit his share of fouls through clumsiness (Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Warren Martin), he also gets called for a variety of fouls on plays where he is trying to set a screen or take a charge, perfectly legally, but like the Washington Generals, he is made the Whipping Boy for the refs-- they'd rather even out the foul calls by calling a moving screen on Hairston than on Plumlee-- they know Coach K is going to get much more vocal about a cheap foul on Plumlee or Kelly than on Hairston, so they often choose to make their point/even up the foul totals, by calling an unfair one on Hairston (as they did at least twice on Sunday night) than call it on somebody else-- Hairston is the designated faceless villain in the Tag Team match, just there to fill out the card, take his beating, and move on anonymously to the next match.

Oh, and let's not pretend that UNC hasn't had more than their share of near-seven foot brontosauruses over the years, whose main job was to camp under the offensive board and try to play volleyball with missed shots until the ball accidentally fell in the basket, regardless of their skill level... from Henson to Kris Lang to Warren Martin to Yon-Wolf-Sin, Carolina has excelled at finding lanky, unskilled beef to bat the ball at the basket repeatedly.

I think we have communication issues.

[Mudge]

Are we off topic much?

Sure he was trying to block the shot. He was going to do whatever it took to not allow that basket. He was looking for payback and everybody knows it. It was an intentional foul. A very aggressive intentional foul.

I don't think he was trying to crack his nose and injure him, that was unfortunate, but make no mistake it was an intentional action to mug him like that.

Note: I know Ginyard/Manuel were not post players, just defensive specialist like Josh.

Nope, not off topic at all- just on the subject of delusions about intentional fouls...

And nope, not everybody knows it-- I don't know it, Coach K doesn't know it (from his angry protestations after the penalty), and Henderson has never said it either, so I assume he doesn't/didn't know it either. Yes, it was an aggressive play-- but that doesn't make it an intentional foul-- or an intent to get payback. Henderson was going up against a player making a power move right underneath the basket, who was half a foot taller and outweighed him by ~50+ pounds-- if I'm Henderson, I'm thinking I better try to aggressively block this shot, if I don't want to get "posterized" a` la Hansbooboo's erstwhile teammate Brandon Knight against DeAndre Jordan (in a recent similar mismatch between a bigger and a smaller player)-- there was no payback decision in that fleeting spur of the moment, as Henderson went up to block that shot-- he never would have had time to make such calculation-- it's not like he was chasing Hansbooboo all the way down the floor in the open court, before it happened.

All this leaves aside the thing that has always bothered me about this event: What the heck was Hansbooboo still doing on the floor, at home, on Senior Day, late in a game that was already well-decided-- other than to work on trying to rub it in, on your most heated rival-- you'd expect that he would have already been pulled from the game, to bask in the adulation of the faithful, by that point... so if the goal WAS to rub it in, it's pretty hard to feel at all sorry for what happened to him there, given that Hansbooboo still being in the game DID seem like a calculated move to try to rub your opponent's nose in it, rather than doing the sportsmanlike thing, and calling off the dogs (while also giving Hansbooboo his moment in the spotlight), after the game was already over.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No, exactly what are you saying?


I'm saying Josh is a very physical player.

I don't think he's dirty or anything like that. I like that he always plays hard, and he is a good player. But he's an example of where the game is these days. "Bruisers" are more prevalent than skilled players.

[Mudge]

I'm saying Josh is a very physical player.

I would say that Josh isn't a "very" anything kind of player-- except an adjective that I'm not allowed to use here, or I will get a violation (again) for being too critical of Duke's players-- he isn't strong enough to qualify as a very physical player.

[Newton_14]

It must be the full moon...

So how did you feel about Seaton Hall after that game? Did you wish them luck?

McAdoo's play was clearly inadvertent.

Henderson's foul was clearly intentional, although I don't think it was meant to injure HanswhoownedU (Indian nickname), he was just trying to make a statement about his team being "tough".

Oh, and its a Zen proverb, not a southern thang.


I'll play on this one. Hans record against Duke- 6-2 (4-0 in CIS, 2-2 at NoseDome). MasonwhownedU Record Against UNC 7-2 (3-1 in CIS, 3-1 in MasonReverseDunk Dome, 1-0 ACC Title Game).
:D

Carry on...

Edit: Gerald/Hans play was clearly not intentional. The camera angle from halfcourt with the much closer view showed that clearly, unlike the camera angle from the baseline which was further away and made it look much worse than it was. Guess which angle they use when the replay is shown 100 times each season. Henderson was not even close to being a dirty player. Quite the opposite in fact.

[allenmurray]

How Wheat "moves on"


If you are waiting on me to wish your team good luck, you might want to join a doomsday cult.

I sort of got sucked in here.

I'm OK with "moving on", I'm tired of it being brought up too.

It is silly how I allow myself to get dragged into these never ending comebacks.

I think we have communication issues.

That this troll is held in such high esteem on this board amazes me.

[Lunchab1es]

To be fair, there have been a fair share of less-than-courteous replies towards Wheat.

Can we all agree that Wheat will forever have a Carolina viewpoint on the world, 98% of remaining DBR members will have a Duke viewpoint, end the ever expanding derailing arguments and get back to welcoming Jaysfan1 as our official Creighton representative of the board?

I mean, at least he wears the right color blue ;)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

How Wheat "moves on"







That this troll is held in such high esteem on this board amazes me.

So name calling is all you've got? Last time I looked that was a board violation.

I try to respond thoughtfully to every comment directed to me, when its not an obvious attempt to bait me, isn't that what's expected?

[OldPhiKap]

I'm saying Josh is a very physical player.

I don't think he's dirty or anything like that. I like that he always plays hard, and he is a good player. But he's an example of where the game is these days. "Bruisers" are more prevalent than skilled players.

No, you are changing the argument. You said:


Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/"
For instance, I don't see a player on UNC's roster that plays the role of Josh Hairston, just say in'.


What is the "role" of which you speak?

I hate to sidetrack a gracious thread by a Creighton fan with the typical UNC crap, but you first accuse Creighton of costing Carolina the National Championship last year through physical play and now accuse Duke of some sort of thuggery. Maybe your players should grow a pair and play ball.

But, as you said, I was right about Julius Peppers. Sounds like situational whining to me.

"Just sayin'"

[Newton_14]

This was a message I originally sent as a reply to a pvt message sent to me by a Duke supporter just telling me good game. I wanted to post my response I sent to him on here publicly for everyone else to see too.

Thoughts on the game:
It was definitely a back yard brawl that's for sure. I thought the refs called way too tight of a game on both sides of the floor. It was difficult for either team to get any momentum going which in the end I think really hindered Creighton. They are a team known for going on runs and scoring in bunches which they just couldn't do on Sunday night. I also really thought Doug was forcing a lot of shots which he doesn't normally do. But then again no one around him could hit the broad side of a barn so I can't really blame him. At times it almost seemed like the rest of the Jays were just standing around waiting for McDermott to make a move and win the game on his own. You can't win games that way and that's the first time I've seen the Jays do that all season. A lot of that I think you have to chalk up to playing a team like Duke in a prime-time game like that.

I was a little disappointed in some of the supporting cast for CU. The only 2 guys I thought played a decent game other than Doug was Gibbs and Echenique. But ultimately all 3 of them got in foul trouble and no one on the entire team could hit an outside shot which you just can't have happen against a team like Duke. I really got to give it up to Duke's defense. We all thought this might be a high scoring shootout based on what the two teams are capable of offensively. I really think Duke's D caught The Jays off guard and they just wouldn't allow them to get into any kind of rythem. That was the best defense I've ever seen played on McDermott and honestly some of the best team defense I've seen played in a long time period.

I gotta admit though.. I loved seeing Echenique hold his own against the Duke bigs. Especially Plumlee. Everytime Plumlee tried to do his dropstep move it was like he was running into a brick wall. I don't think many teams have been able to do that to him in his career. Ech is a senior this year so that is going to REALLY hurt Creighton in their move to the Big East. They don't have another big man like that who can play one on one defense vs anyone in the country.

I'm with you on the McDermott - Big East thing. I really hope he comes back but even if he does I think he'll struggle a little more than he has the past 3 years in The Valley. But I'm optimistic about the move. I think it will take Greg McDermott a few years to get Big East style recruits to match up. But once he does I believe CU will be in the top tier of the Big East every year. It may not seam like it but Omaha's actually a pretty enticing place for recruits to come play. CU plays in the CenturyLink Center which is an 17,000+ seat arena that is sold out for almost every home game. Last year CU was 7th in the nation in attendance and this year they're saying we could be in the top 5.

Good luck the rest of the way Dukies. I couldn't say that about UNC after the loss last year. The Duke fans I've talked to and seen on this board seam to have a lot of class which is severely lacking in a lot schools around the country (the Cincinnati fans I talked to on boards before and after our first round game were a joke by the way...) But I really hope you go far because I think that Duke is in a little different class than a lot of teams still in the tourney. Mich St will be a tough game but I think you'll pull that one out to move on to the Elite 8. L'Ville is an extremely tough team but just tell Coach K to keep up that defense and you guys will be fine:)

- jaysfan1

Getting the thread back on track, thanks for posting before and after the game, and for the thoughtful posts. Please pop in from time to time to talk hoops in general, and looking forward to seeing your guys in the new Big East.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'll play on this one. Hans record against Duke- 6-2 (4-0 in CIS, 2-2 at NoseDome). MasonwhownedU Record Against UNC 7-2 (3-1 in CIS, 3-1 in MasonReverseDunk Dome, 1-0 ACC Title Game).
:D

Carry on...

Edit: Gerald/Hans play was clearly not intentional. The camera angle from halfcourt with the much closer view showed that clearly, unlike the camera angle from the baseline which was further away and made it look much worse than it was. Guess which angle they use when the replay is shown 100 times each season. Henderson was not even close to being a dirty player. Quite the opposite in fact.

I've never said Henderson was a dirty player. What I'm saying is that was an intentional foul. Sometimes a player decides to use one of his five fouls. This was one of those times.

Henderson is a NBA player now. He is/was very good. Do you really think for a moment that Henderson thought he could block TH at the rim from that angle cleanly without fouling? I don't think so. But he knew he could get there in time to keep him from scoring late in that already decided game, he was gonna do it, and he did.

It was a macho moment.

[OldPhiKap]

Getting the thread back on track, thanks for posting before and after the game, and for the thoughtful posts. Please pop in from time to time to talk hoops in general, and looking forward to seeing your guys in the new Big East.

Agreed, time to take back on topic. Best of luck to CU and please come talk hoops anytime!

[Newton_14]

I've never said Henderson was a dirty player. What I'm saying is that was an intentional foul. Sometimes a player decides to use one of his five fouls. This was one of those times.

Henderson is a NBA player now. He is/was very good. Do you really think for a moment that Henderson thought he could block TH at the rim from that angle cleanly without fouling? I don't think so. But he knew he could get there in time to keep him from scoring late in that already decided game, he was gonna do it, and he did.

It was a macho moment.

I should let it go, but will play on. Had the ball not gotten stripped, Hendo sends that shot into the crowd. Gerald is a freak athlete with mad hops. Smaller athletic players block shots on bigger less athletic players practically every game. Grant Hill/Montross, for another example. It's crazy to suggest Gerald could not possibly block a shot by Tyler on a shot attempt of that nature. That said, UNC fan will always see the play as intentional and/or dirty and Duke fan will always see it as Gerald making every effort to prevent another stat padding score, and incidental contact (due to the ball getting stripped below) led to an unfortunate but unintentional injury. That's just how it works.


That said, I could also play it your way. What exactly was said by Coach K in that timeout with 38 seconds left and UNC making it a show time dunk fest with their starters on the floor? Something like: "I better not see another freaking showtime dunk or easy layup. Who here has any freakin pride? Henderson: "I will handle it coach". Did Coach K order the Code Red? You dang right he did!:cool:

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No, you are changing the argument. You said:


Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/"
For instance, I don't see a player on UNC's roster that plays the role of Josh Hairston, just say in'.


What is the "role" of which you speak?

I hate to sidetrack a gracious thread by a Creighton fan with the typical UNC crap, but you first accuse Creighton of costing Carolina the National Championship last year through physical play and now accuse Duke of some sort of thuggery. Maybe your players should grow a pair and play ball.

But,as you said, I was right about Julius Peppers. Sounds like situational whining to me.

"Just sayin'"

Where have I accused Duke of playing like thugs? Some of you guys read way too much into my comments.

Josh's role is to be a defensive enforcer. He's there to put a body on somebody and disrupt the flow. He's a blue collar player, and I mean that respectfully. I like him, he's doing what he can do at a high level. He's the guy who sets the pick, bumps the penetrator to get him off balance, blocks out strong. Brings energy and attitude.

My argument is that the game has too many players like him and not enough skilled players like Sulimon.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I should let it go, but will play on. Had the ball not gotten stripped, Hendo sends that shot into the crowd. Gerald is a freak athlete with mad hops. Smaller athletic players block shots on bigger less athletic players practically every game. Grant Hill/Montross, for another example. It's crazy to suggest Gerald could not possibly block a shot by Tyler on a shot attempt of that nature. That said, UNC fan will always see the play as intentional and/or dirty and Duke fan will always see it as Gerald making every effort to prevent another stat padding score, and incidental contact (due to the ball getting stripped below) led to an unfortunate but unintentional injury. That's just how it works.


That said, I could also play it your way. What exactly was said by Coach K in that timeout with 38 seconds left and UNC making it a show time dunk fest with their starters on the floor? Something like: "I better not see another freaking showtime dunk or easy layup. Who here has any freakin pride? Henderson: "I will handle it coach". Did Coach K order the Code Red? You dang right he did!:cool:

We agree... It was a code red moment.

[OldPhiKap]

Where have I accused Duke of playing like thugs? Some of you guys read way too much into my comments.

Josh's role is to be a defensive enforcer. He's there to put a body on somebody and disrupt the flow. He's a blue collar player, and I mean that respectfully. I like him, he's doing what he can do at a high level. He's the guy who sets the pick, bumps the penetrator to get him off balance, blocks out strong. Brings energy and attitude.

My argument is that the game has too many players like him and not enough skilled players like Sulimon.

No, you again change your argument.

You first accuse Josh of playing a "role" that Carolina is somehow above playing.

When challenged, you now say that he is a defensive enforcer "respectfully" but that he is not a skilled player like Rasheed.

I will say again. If Carolina does not have any players with the stones to defend, they deserve to be sitting at home. But do not take swipes at our players, and then protest that you were not.

But of course when Julius Peppers hammered the ever-loving crud out of folks in the paint, that was all in the name of clean sport, right? Makhtar N'Diaye was a skilled player?!? Rasheed Wallace?!?

Stop acting like Carolina is a martyr in a world of villains. And stop accusing our players of nefarious acts, then claiming that we are overreacting. Or, alternatively, go back to arguing how Creighton screwed you out of a National Championship last year instead of recognizing that Bill Self outcoached Roy in every facet of the game that actually put you out.

Just sayin'

[Dukeface88]

So name calling is all you've got? Last time I looked that was a board violation.

I try to respond thoughtfully to every comment directed to me, when its not an obvious attempt to bait me, isn't that what's expected?

Wheat, you came into a thread made by a fan of another team, started trash-talking his team for no real reason, and then started making thinly-veiled accusations about our current and former players. I don't think it's at all inaccurate to say you're trolling pretty hard at the moment.

[El_Diablo]

Uncle.

[throatybeard]

I'm just sad that a really nice thread started by a kind and decent opposing fan from Creighton has turned into this predictable mess. Well, except that it wasn't predictable in this thread.

[jaysfan1]

Thanks for backing me up Dukies. I didn't plan on writing a post about my team and then having to defend them to a UNC fan. But hey, thats how it goes sometimes. I've enjoyed reading the responses about the matchup and your thoughts on Creighton as a whole. When the Jays aren't playing I'll be rooting for Duke from now on (especially when they're playing UNC). Good luck against State!

[OldPhiKap]

Wheat, you came into a thread made by a fan of another team, started trash-talking his team for no real reason, and then started making thinly-veiled accusations about our current and former players. I don't think it's at all inaccurate to say you're trolling pretty hard at the moment.


Uncle.


I'm just sad that a really nice thread started by a kind and decent opposing fan from Creighton has turned into this predictable mess. Well, except that it wasn't predictable in this thread.

I agree with all of this, and tried to turn the thread back to the topic previously. Mea culpa to the extent I took it off thread, but I am really tired of this.

If someone wants to attack our players, there are (unfortunately) other places to do it.

Curious who Creighton sees as their big rivals in the Big East, and which traditional rivalries are being upset, by realignment. If Jay hasn't given up on us and is still around.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No, you again change your argument.

You first accuse Josh of playing a "role" that Carolina is somehow above playing.

When challenged, you now say that he is a defensive enforcer "respectfully" but that he is not a skilled player like Rasheed.

I will say again. If Carolina does not have any players with the stones to defend, they deserve to be sitting at home. But do not take swipes at our players, and then protest that you were not.

But of course when Julius Peppers hammered the ever-loving crud out of folks in the paint, that was all in the name of clean sport, right? Makhtar N'Diaye was a skilled player?!? Rasheed Wallace?!?

Stop acting like Carolina is a martyr in a world of villains. And stop accusing our players of nefarious acts, then claiming that we are overreacting. Or, alternatively, go back to arguing how Creighton screwed you out of a National Championship last year instead of recognizing that Bill Self outcoached Roy in every facet of the game that actually put you out.

Just sayin'

In a nut shell because I can't keep up...

The game is too physical. That was the point from the beginning.

Josh is not as skilled as Rasheed. You asked me to explain what I meant by Josh's role and I did.

UNC does play defense. When they do they try not foul. Many teams know they're fouling, and accept the calls or hope the calls are not made. I don't like that aspect of college basketball.

Peppers was an exception to my argument at UNC. He was recruited to play football at UNC, and joined the team as a walkon after he arrived.

I didn't accuse a Duke player of anything, except making an intentional foul. I said time and time again I don't think he tried to hurt TH or was playing dirty.

I don't like what the college game has become.

[CDu]

Thanks for backing me up Dukies. I didn't plan on writing a post about my team and then having to defend them to a UNC fan. But hey, thats how it goes sometimes. I've enjoyed reading the responses about the matchup and your thoughts on Creighton as a whole. When the Jays aren't playing I'll be rooting for Duke from now on (especially when they're playing UNC). Good luck against State!

As perhaps the only Duke fan who disagreed with you in this thread, I want to make sure that you know I meant no animosity. I felt our debate was reasonable but wanted to make sure I didn't overly offend.

I too am sad that your thread got dragged down by a UNC fan taking cheap shots. I do hope you will stick around and won't let one bad apple spoil things for you.

I see a lot of Duke in the way Creighton plays, so obviously I am a fan. I am sorry that we had to face your team. Under other circumstances I would be cheering for Creighton to do well. I do wish you guys well in the move to the new Big East. It will no doubt be a challenge, but I hope you guys hold your own.

[OldPhiKap]

As perhaps the only Duke fan who disagreed with you in this thread, I want to make sure that you know I meant no animosity. I felt our debate was reasonable but wanted to make sure I didn't overly offend.

I too am sad that your thread got dragged down by a UNC fan taking cheap shots. I do hope you will stick around and won't let one bad apple spoil things for you.

I see a lot of Duke in the way Creighton plays, so obviously I am a fan. I am sorry that we had to face your team. Under other circumstances I would be cheering for Creighton to do well. I do wish you guys well in the move to the new Big East. It will no doubt be a challenge, but I hope you guys hold your own.

Wholly agree that the teams mirror each other. I think Creighton will benefit long-term by stepping up the conference competition level, although it may not be immediate. (And Hell, the Valley was better than several "major" conferences this year). Best of luck.

[jaysfan1]

I'm still here.. I actually enjoy reading all these comments even if I don't agree with them or if they have nothing to do with Creighton.

As far as the Big East goes, I can see a few rivalries developing for CU. Looking at it geographically you basically have an east and west. Omaha is a long way from NYC so it will be hard to develop rivalries with the east teams (Villanova, St Johns, Seton Hall, G'town and Providence). But I think we can definately develop some rivalries with the west teams (Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Depaul and of course Creighton). I especially think that Butler could become a great rivalry for us. Theres something there with both teams coming from mid-major conferences and now trying to make a name for themselves with the big boys.

Its going to take a few years but McDermott Sr will get his recruits needed to compete. I really think that CU will become a top 5 team year in and year out in the conference. Either way it's going to be fun to watch,

[jaysfan1]

As perhaps the only Duke fan who disagreed with you in this thread, I want to make sure that you know I meant no animosity. I felt our debate was reasonable but wanted to make sure I didn't overly offend.

I too am sad that your thread got dragged down by a UNC fan taking cheap shots. I do hope you will stick around and won't let one bad apple spoil things for you.

I see a lot of Duke in the way Creighton plays, so obviously I am a fan. I am sorry that we had to face your team. Under other circumstances I would be cheering for Creighton to do well. I do wish you guys well in the move to the new Big East. It will no doubt be a challenge, but I hope you guys hold your own.

No offense taken. I like getting in debates about different teams like this. Duke fans seam very educated and rational about their team. That makes it fun to debate.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm still here.. I actually enjoy reading all these comments even if I don't agree with them or if they have nothing to do with Creighton.

As far as the Big East goes, I can see a few rivalries developing for CU. Looking at it geographically you basically have an east and west. Omaha is a long way from NYC so it will be hard to develop rivalries with the east teams (Villanova, St Johns, Seton Hall, G'town and Providence). But I think we can definately develop some rivalries with the west teams (Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Depaul and of course Creighton). I especially think that Butler could become a great rivalry for us. Theres something there with both teams coming from mid-major conferences and now trying to make a name for themselves with the big boys.

Its going to take a few years but McDermott Sr will get his recruits needed to compete. I really think that CU will become a top 5 team year in and year out in the conference. Either way it's going to be fun to watch,

Gotta think the recruiting footprint will increase, both because of your good showings the last two years and in moving to a bigger conference with a bigger media market.

Those are five excellent Western teams, and I really think that the new basketball-centered Big East will be very exciting to see. Butler, Xavier, Marquette and DePaul are clearly skilled teams on your level. As a hoops junkie, your new league may be more fun to watch than my venerable but now bloated ACC. Can easily see 4-5 bids from that conference on a pretty regular basis, which is equal to or better than the comparably-sized ACC did this year.

Are you losing any traditional rivalries? What are your general thoughts on the move?

[ice-9]

Henderson's foul was clearly intentional, although I don't think it was meant to injure HanswhoownedU (Indian nickname), he was just trying to make a statement about his team being "tough".

Oh, and its a Zen proverb, not a southern thang.


It saddens me that a UNC fan openly mocking Duke on a Duke forum has more pitchforks than I do. T____T

[Des Esseintes]

I'm still here.. I actually enjoy reading all these comments even if I don't agree with them or if they have nothing to do with Creighton.

As far as the Big East goes, I can see a few rivalries developing for CU. Looking at it geographically you basically have an east and west. Omaha is a long way from NYC so it will be hard to develop rivalries with the east teams (Villanova, St Johns, Seton Hall, G'town and Providence). But I think we can definately develop some rivalries with the west teams (Butler, Xavier, Marquette, Depaul and of course Creighton). I especially think that Butler could become a great rivalry for us. Theres something there with both teams coming from mid-major conferences and now trying to make a name for themselves with the big boys.

Its going to take a few years but McDermott Sr will get his recruits needed to compete. I really think that CU will become a top 5 team year in and year out in the conference. Either way it's going to be fun to watch,

The funny thing is that there WAS a Missouri Valley team playing the game with questionable violence this weekend. It just didn't happen to be Creighton. While Wichita State's victory over Gonzaga was impressive for many reasons, my pleasure in it was mitigated by what was clearly a gameplan to beat Gonzaga to a pulp and see if they could still play pretty. The flagrant foul got everyone's attention, but guys were getting thrown to the deck all over that court, sometimes out past the three-point line. Wichita State showed immense grit to come back the way they did late after Gonzaga seemed to have seized control. I just wish it didn't feel so dirty to watch.

[captmojo]

I believe the future for Creighton is bright. I have not seen, but I believe the future in this year's tourney for the officials from this game to be rather dim. Cheap touches away from. and completely unrelated to the play of the moment that bring whistles and foul calls, should spell the end of the season for this group of zebras. What percentage of the fouls that were called, both ways, would have resulted in an advantage gained by the one making the called contact?

Now, let's admit that McDermott gets himself free for many of his shots by use of a pushing-off forearm. It doesn't take anything away from his shooting ability.

Poor Peppers...
Dan Meaghar couldn't help it. He was born a beast.
Kenny Dennard couldn't help it. He was born a beast.
Art Heyman couldn't help it. He was born a beast.
Etc
Etc
Etc

[DukeAlumBS]

Nicely done my friend. My Creighton fan, I agree. Read my first note on this. Take it with a grain of salt. There is odd human behavior all over the internet.
With dedicated fans such as you, your team will do very well. As captmojo put it, lets move on from here. Let the poor seed rest, I would. He is UNC! LOL

Have a nice day!

Jimmy

[jv001]

The way Creighton plays and the game is being called, the skys the limit. Just have your coach keep recruiting from the hockey and wrestling teams and you'll do fine playing Big East basketball.

What a way to greet a fan of another team on this site. I've gotten flack for supporting you in other threads but now you show your true colors(ugly blue). You are throwing every Creighton fan, player and coach into the same category. That's being very judgmental on your part. I thought you were above this. GoDuke!

[jaysfan1]

Gotta think the recruiting footprint will increase, both because of your good showings the last two years and in moving to a bigger conference with a bigger media market.

Those are five excellent Western teams, and I really think that the new basketball-centered Big East will be very exciting to see. Butler, Xavier, Marquette and DePaul are clearly skilled teams on your level. As a hoops junkie, your new league may be more fun to watch than my venerable but now bloated ACC. Can easily see 4-5 bids from that conference on a pretty regular basis, which is equal to or better than the comparably-sized ACC did this year.

Are you losing any traditional rivalries? What are your general thoughts on the move?

Wichita St is the biggest rivalry we're losing. There's been some other good rivalries with teams like Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois or Illinois St over the years - but Wichita has been the one that's lasted year in an year out. They always play each other very close and as you've seen from this years tourney, they are clearly the top 2 teams in the league right now. Both athletic departments have talked about continuing the rivalry after Creighton leaves. They may try to schedule a game every year in December between the two schools before conference play starts which I think would be a great thing to do. The only problem is that now CU has to worry about playing another tourney team every year in addition to their already loaded Big East schedule.

The only other rivalry that has remained constant through the years is CU vs Nebraska. I know the Huskers are not known for being a basketball school at all but they always seam to get revved up for the Creighton game. In fact NU has a slight advantage in the all time record for the matchup. Nebraska has always looked at Creighton as a little brother because of the mid-major status. But for the past decade Creighton has clearly been better than the Huskers so that combined with the fact that CU is no longer a mid-major now makes Nebraska the team trying to catch up. Nebraska just hired Tim Miles who was at Colorado St prior. It was Miles' team who Eustachy coached to the round of 32 this year so a lot of people are excited about NU because of Miles ability to recruit and get players to the state. So that rivalry should not only continue but I think it will get a lot better in the coming years. I never thought I'd say it but the future is bright for hoops in this state.

Now if only Pelini could get the Huskers past that 10-4 mark in the fall...

[CDu]

The only problem is that now CU has to worry about playing another tourney team every year in addition to their already loaded Big East schedule.

Welcome to the world of major conference basketball, where you're expected to play a tougher conference schedule and still have at least 3-4 quality non-conference games. That's just a fact of life of becoming one of the big boys.

[_Gary]

It saddens me that a UNC fan openly mocking Duke on a Duke forum has more pitchforks than I do. T____T

Ha. That's nothing. Look at my count.

Oh, and one other thing. Wheat earlier said something about it "being a Zen thing, not a Southern thang." I'm in complete agreement. Please don't ever equate Wheat with us Southerners. It's gives me the willies. Bless his heart. :D

[NashvilleDevil]

Wichita St is the biggest rivalry we're losing. There's been some other good rivalries with teams like Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois or Illinois St over the years - but Wichita has been the one that's lasted year in an year out. They always play each other very close and as you've seen from this years tourney, they are clearly the top 2 teams in the league right now. Both athletic departments have talked about continuing the rivalry after Creighton leaves. They may try to schedule a game every year in December between the two schools before conference play starts which I think would be a great thing to do. The only problem is that now CU has to worry about playing another tourney team every year in addition to their already loaded Big East schedule.

The only other rivalry that has remained constant through the years is CU vs Nebraska. I know the Huskers are not known for being a basketball school at all but they always seam to get revved up for the Creighton game. In fact NU has a slight advantage in the all time record for the matchup. Nebraska has always looked at Creighton as a little brother because of the mid-major status. But for the past decade Creighton has clearly been better than the Huskers so that combined with the fact that CU is no longer a mid-major now makes Nebraska the team trying to catch up. Nebraska just hired Tim Miles who was at Colorado St prior. It was Miles' team who Eustachy coached to the round of 32 this year so a lot of people are excited about NU because of Miles ability to recruit and get players to the state. So that rivalry should not only continue but I think it will get a lot better in the coming years. I never thought I'd say it but the future is bright for hoops in this state.

Now if only Pelini could get the Huskers past that 10-4 mark in the fall...

Bo has the schedule this year for winning 11-12 games.