Question about Tyler's value to this team

[diveonthefloor]

A Duke fan whom I highly respect is adamant that Tyler is a poor player and a team liability. I just don't see it. In fact quite the
opposite. Against Creighton, for instance, Tyler successfully shut down McDermott when Ryan, Josh and Mason got into foul trouble. He has done this in the past against players much taller than him. He seems to have a knack for the critical 3 pointer late in the clock.
Does anyone agree with my friend who doesn't think much of Tyler's playing ability?

[Troublemaker]

Tyler has the second-best plus/minus on the team, second to only Mr. MVP Ryan Kelly himself. Tyler is plenty valuable.

[brlftz]

I freeze it at least once a game to point out to my wife something awesome Tyler has done that gets completely unnoticed. He is hugely valuable.

[rthomas]

Does anyone agree with my friend who doesn't think much of Tyler's playing ability?

NO. Since this is too short for DBR, I will reiterate. NO.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I will reiterate what I stated on another board and made a lot of people disagree with me. Tyler Thornton is the most clutch, aggressive player on our team. Coach K loves him, and what he brings to the game. And Coach K knows a little about basketball.

[KandG]

Tyler has the second-best plus/minus on the team, second to only Mr. MVP Ryan Kelly himself. Tyler is plenty valuable.

And there you go. There have been some bad games where he takes too many shots and gets too chippy on defense, picking up silly fouls and even technicals. But he really does add an element of toughness to the team and isn't afraid to take big shots...he is a good foil to Quinn, who's sometimes unfocused. As long as Tyler plays within himself, I love his role on the team.

[elvis14]

If you look around I think you'll find that most of us know Tyler's value. He gets some criticism (some of which is deserved) but that doesn't mean we don't know how to look beyond points per game.

I think there was an appreciation thread for Tyler recently.

[burnspbesq]

A lot of the valuable things TT does don't show up in the box score ... but guess who led Duke in rebounds tonight (per the ESPN.com box score)?

[NovaScotian]

i just want to be on the record saying that i think tyler thornton will be the next head coach at duke.

[Richard Berg]

i just want to be on the record saying that i think tyler thornton will be the next head coach at duke.

At the very least, he should be next in line for Nate Dogg's position.

[duke09hms]

A Duke fan whom I highly respect is adamant that Tyler is a poor player and a team liability. I just don't see it. In fact quite the
opposite. Against Creighton, for instance, Tyler successfully shut down McDermott when Ryan, Josh and Mason got into foul trouble. He has done this in the past against players much taller than him. He seems to have a knack for the critical 3 pointer late in the clock.
Does anyone agree with my friend who doesn't think much of Tyler's playing ability?

I'd say Amile shut down Doug more than Tyler.
I used to be a Tyler hater last year when he was our starting PG because clearly he does not have the offensive capabilities to be the engine of the Duke offense. But now, in his current role, I think he does great as defensive specialist/physical presence/opportunistic shot-taker.

The player I think whose PT is inexplicable is Josh. Amile is clearly superior in certain matchups, as shown today, is probably equal to Josh all-around. Though with MSU looming, Josh's physicality could be a benefit. The main problem is playing Tyler with Josh results in 3v5 on offense. Amile is a much needed offensive threat; at least he is coordinated.

I confess I was very happy when Josh fouled out today because it ensured Amile more PT.

[TNTDevil]

T-squared, tonight, was phenomenal. Two for two from 3-point line, two for three from the Stripe. Outstanding defense on great player when his team needed the effort. And all six rebounds on the defensive end.

Definite liability.

<Hijack> Amile was really good tonight too. His ACC experience really accelerated his growth and he provided some very valuable minutes.

[Durham Thunder]

Ask your friend who he'd peg for backup PG when Cook needs rest/is in foul trouble. Oh, and mention the words "on-ball defense".

[duke09hms]

Ask your friend who he'd peg for backup PG when Cook needs rest/is in foul trouble. Oh, and mention the words "on-ball defense".

Do you mean off-ball defense? Quinn is actually better at staying in front of his man. Where Tyler excels is off-ball defense either denying his man the ball or making sure he gets it in an awkward location. Kind of Scheyer-like in his off-ball defense except what Tyler lacks in height/length, he makes up in his physicality.

[juise]

Tyler has the second-best plus/minus on the team, second to only Mr. MVP Ryan Kelly himself. Tyler is plenty valuable.

I used to feel really guilty about dreading Tyler or Josh going in the game. I felt guilty because they both play so hard, give up their bodies, and do whatever is needed of them for Dukemto win. When I saw the +/- about halfway through conference play (as noted above), I noted how positive Tyler's numbers were and really started to appreciate his contribution more. I am a Tyler believer now (agree that I hate when he gets overly chippy).

No comment on the status of the remaining guilt.

[Kedsy]

In the post-game press conference, Coach K praised Tyler for his communication on D. He said during the time Josh and Amile were both in, Tyler "orchestrated" the defense and got us together. Of course that sort of thing doesn't show up in the box score.

Plus he seems to have a knack for off-balance three pointers to beat buzzers, so he has that going for him.

[juise]

so he has that going for him.

Which is nice.

[imagines Tyler effortlessly hitting off-balance threes in a dark gym like Chevy Chase knocking in blindfolded putts. "Nah nah nah nah nah."]

[OZ]

A Duke fan whom I highly respect is adamant that Tyler is a poor player and a team liability.

Has your friend ever seen Duke play?

[m g]

Thornton is vital to the team, and especially on defense. People who undervalue him are probably just looking at his points per game. Even on offense, he makes few mistakes, which is not glamorous but is very important. He almost never takes bad shots and uses screens more effectively than Cook.


The player I think whose PT is inexplicable is Josh. Amile is clearly superior in certain matchups, as shown today, is probably equal to Josh all-around. Though with MSU looming, Josh's physicality could be a benefit. The main problem is playing Tyler with Josh results in 3v5 on offense. Amile is a much needed offensive threat; at least he is coordinated.

I confess I was very happy when Josh fouled out today because it ensured Amile more PT.

Hairston is the heaviest listed player on the team, and Duke needed him to body up on Echenique, particularly with Plumlee and Kelly in foul trouble. The difference is weight. According to listed weights, Hairston is just 20 pounds lighter than Echenique, compared to 60 for Jefferson. Despite his nose for the ball and aggressive rebounding, Jefferson can't be our biggest guy against a team like Creighton. He picked up three fouls of his own in 11 minutes. Jefferson is better in some matchups, but losing Hairston really limited Duke's flexibility and size on a night where every big was picking up fouls left and right.

[dukeofcalabash]

Tyler has a role on this team, but he's not all that everyone is saying. He's a hustler which gets him a few minutes on the court and Coach K knows that if left in too long would foul out or not have the impact that these few minutes gets him. There is a big difference in the starting five on this team and the bench, but without contributions from this bench the losses would certainly be higher. I'm thankful for each and every player on this team.

[Bomar]

Tyler this year is great for his role - a hustle guy. Yes there are times he can make me cringe, but he is a stellar sixth man.

[Bob Green]

Tyler has a role on this team, but he's not all that everyone is saying. He's a hustler which gets him a few minutes on the court and Coach K knows that if left in too long would foul out or not have the impact that these few minutes gets him.

I believe you are undervaluing TT's contributions or perhaps you and I have different definitions for the descriptor - "few." Tyler Thornton has played in all 34 games averaging 22 minutes per game. He played 23 minutes in last night's victory over Creighton. That is more than "a few minutes on the court" from my perspective. During various press conferences, Coach Krzyzewski has lauded Thornton as a tough leader and the team's best communicator.

[OldPhiKap]

Which is nice.

[imagines Tyler effortlessly hitting off-balance threes in a dark gym like Chevy Chase knocking in blindfolded putts. "Nah nah nah nah nah."]

Oonga Galunga.

Tyler simply makes winning plays, on oth ends of the floor. A more athletic Wojo.

Wonder if he can coach big men.

[timmy c]

Oonga Galunga.

Tyler simply makes winning plays, on oth ends of the floor. A more athletic Wojo.

Wonder if he can coach big men.

During several games Thornton played the 4. Not only could he coach them, HE IS ONE!

[CDu]

Once Coach K moved Thornton off the ball, Thornton's value skyrocketed. His biggest weaknesses are quickness and offensive skill, and as such playing PG was a terrible assignment (guarding the quickest player, having to run the offense). Now that he's a wing player, his strengths (off-ball defense, organization, toughness, hustle) are maximized. With 3 terrific offensive players at guard, he's a terrific complement to our rotation.

[rifraf]

My wife likes to say that she doesn't think K has ever yelled at Tyler. That kid is a shining example of a "Duke" player. Unselfish, plays hard every minute he's on the court, is a great leader, and rarely lets his emotions get the better of him. Sure, he can be a little foul prone from time to time but I never groan when he's on the court. Every minute is likely to be benefitial and his ability to guard anyone on the floor is really valuable.

[gumbomoop]

Tyler has a role on this team, but he's not all that everyone is saying.

I do understand this perspective. Or perhaps better stated, I understand why someone would have this perspective. I myself am far from Tyler's biggest supporter on EK. But K seems to think that not only is Tyler "all that everyone is saying," he's way, way more than even his most enthusiastic EK supporters are saying.

I'm struck by these words from K during the postgame interview [https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf9/1763185.pdf?ATCLID=206909084&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200]:

"I especially thought Thornton helped us defensively in that second half when we were in all the foul trouble, when Amile and Josh were in, he was able to kind of orchestrate us and make the switch up on top so McDermott didn't get it, and then he had to move a little bit more to get it. But communication was huge for us, and I thought Tyler was outstanding in getting us together and doing it.... Tyler, I really can't say enough about him on the defensive end of the court tonight."

Because I'm not courtside and can't hear Tyler's [apparently dominating] voice when he's out there, and because his occasional foolish fouls drive me nuts, I don't fully appreciate all that Tyler does. But K thinks Tyler is pretty high on the list of essential elements in this team's success.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I confess I was very happy when Josh fouled out today because it ensured Amile more PT.



I love Amile. He's vastly under-utilized, but that's probably because he's still raw and Coach K is training him slowly. Hating on Josh is counter-productive and also wrong. He's not graceful. At times, he's not good. But he's big, he's learning, he's very very important at times, and he's getting better. He reminds me of a sophmore Zoubek.

Lest we forget, everyone (including these boards) hated on Zoubek before his senior year. Coach K knows what he's doing with Josh. He's training him, and Josh is learning. He's WAY better than as a freshman, and he's got a very key role on the team.

[rhcpflea99]

I'd say Amile shut down Doug more than Tyler.
I used to be a Tyler hater last year when he was our starting PG because clearly he does not have the offensive capabilities to be the engine of the Duke offense. But now, in his current role, I think he does great as defensive specialist/physical presence/opportunistic shot-taker.

The player I think whose PT is inexplicable is Josh. Amile is clearly superior in certain matchups, as shown today, is probably equal to Josh all-around. Though with MSU looming, Josh's physicality could be a benefit. The main problem is playing Tyler with Josh results in 3v5 on offense. Amile is a much needed offensive threat; at least he is coordinated.

I confess I was very happy when Josh fouled out today because it ensured Amile more PT.

Amile is liability on defense. Played decent defense yesterday but overall pick roll kills him doesn't help to well. Josh is way better at defense.

[Starter]

I've long thought the way Thornton is deployed is key to his value to the team. As a starting guard playing heavy minutes, I think he would drastically cap this team's potential. He's simply not of that caliber. And I agree with CDu that he's far from a ball-stopper, an obsolete narrative that I feel was carried over from his high school days.

But I also agree that as a hustling, scrapping, disruptive force dispatched for short bursts to roam and wreak some havoc, he absolutely has value. A play that typified Thornton to me last night was when McDermott forearmed Kelly, rolled to the basket and was nearly decapitated by Thornton, who looked like he was dropped from the ceiling. Granted, it was an uncalled foul -- though, I mean, so was McDermott's push-off -- but it really seemed to mess with McDermott's flow thereafter. Maybe it was the uncalled foul, or maybe it was the sheer nature of the play's physicality, but any way you slice it, it had an effect. Similarly, he found himself in the middle of a variety of other plays -- getting rebounds, diving for balls, tipping passes, whatever. I honestly thought it was one of the better games I've seen him play.

I'd be more fully willing to embrace him as something more than a niche player if he didn't offer so little offensively. I saw this several times last night: When he's out there without Cook, teams pay little attention to Thornton by design, and though occasionally he makes them pay with an open three, more often than not it just leads to Plumlee getting doubled down low. When he and Hairston are in the game together it compounds the problem; the spacing seems lousy and it puts too much pressure on Duke's scoring threats to create their own opportunities. High-level teams, like what Duke will see in Indianapolis, are even better equipped to take advantage of this. I think at least offensively, I feel much more confident in Thornton's game when Duke is in a position of strength. If they need to make up a deficit or something, I think having him in there makes it that much harder. And I can't help but wish Duke had someone, anyone on the bench who could offer a bit of scoring punch for when a starter picks up fouls or whatever.

But again, the way Thorton has been utilized for much of the season perfectly maximizes what he brings to the table. I think Thornton is far less polarizing in this role than the one he played last season, or at least he should be. And I would imagine he'll receive an overwhelmingly positive reception next year on Senior Night for his blue-collar nature, leave-it-all-out-there mentality, leadership and knack for hitting the occasional improbable and memorable shot in crucial situations. (Not to mention, he consistently wears the coolest sneakers on the team, which actually very much impresses me. As a longtime collector, I say it sans irony. He wears some serious heat.)

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

A lot of the valuable things TT does don't show up in the box score ... but guess who led Duke in rebounds tonight (per the ESPN.com box score)?

Not to mention the hustle plays like tapping a ball out when the rebound can't be grabbed or hustling to get that loose ball during a critical point in the game. TT is critical to this teams success. I am proud that he chose Duke and represents himself well, both on and off the court.

[MChambers]

Oonga Galunga.

Tyler simply makes winning plays, on oth ends of the floor. A more athletic Wojo.

Wonder if he can coach big men.

If Collins goes to NU, maybe Wojo takes his responsibilities and Tyler becomes Duke's first player-coach, coaching the big men! I don't know if there's ever been a player-coach in the NCAA, but why not? I guess he couldn't get paid. . .

[Kedsy]

Amile is liability on defense. Played decent defense yesterday but overall pick roll kills him doesn't help to well. Josh is way better at defense.

Well, yesterday Amile wasn't just "decent" on defense, he was outstanding. He played much better defense than Josh did (no offense intended toward Josh). McDermott didn't make a single basket against Amile. Frankly, McDermott didn't get a single good look against Amile. I watched that matchup instead of watching the ball, and Amile never let McDermott get more than a few inches away from him. Amile was the MOTM, in my opinion. It was tremendous to see.

[Mike Corey]

A more athletic Wojo.

For the sake of being thorough and giving Wojo his due credit: Wojo was more integral to Duke's success, and was more decorated, no matter their similar styles of play: NDPOY, honorable mention all-america, two-time All-ACC, etc.

[OldPhiKap]

For the sake of being thorough and giving Wojo his due credit: Wojo was more integral to Duke's success, and was more decorated, no matter their similar styles of play: NDPOY, honorable mention all-america, two-time All-ACC, etc.

Very true, and not slighting Wojo. My impression (right or wrong) has always been that Wojo accomplished what he did because he wanted it more; he was willing to sacrifice it all; and his intensity amp went to 11. There were more talented and more physically gifted players, but he outscrapped them all with hustle and desire.

Which brings me to Tyler.

[tbyers11]

Well, yesterday Amile wasn't just "decent" on defense, he was outstanding. He played much better defense than Josh did (no offense intended toward Josh). McDermott didn't make a single basket against Amile. Frankly, McDermott didn't get a single good look against Amile. I watched that matchup instead of watching the ball, and Amile never let McDermott get more than a few inches away from him. Amile was the MOTM, in my opinion. It was tremendous to see.

Shortly after Amile came into the game in the first half he was guarding McDermott on the left wing out by the three point line. Somebody on our team deflected the ball away from a Creighton player and the ball was loose for a second on the left wing about 15 ft from the basket before a Creighton player regained possession. Amile was close enough to the play that I thought he could have made a play on the ball except that he had his back turned face guarding McDermott the whole time. I started to mildly curse him under my breath for not playing aware team defense.

Then I realized that he had probably been told to guard McDermott tightly and worry about little else. Maybe even told to be a no help defender. I then thought "Let's see how he does with this assignment where he doesn't have to worry about help defense and can just D up his man 1-on-1. Well, in the second half, he did as a good a job as anyone could have on McDermott. The D combined with a nice finish in traffic and and a couple of key offensive rebounds led to a great game from Amile.

[Nosbleuatu]

All players have limitations. But for me, the real question is whether the team would be better off without Tyler. I honestly can't see how anyone would say 'Yes'. You can wish that he were taller, faster, stronger, etc., but he gives his all and adds quite a bit to the team. 'Nuff said.

[gep]

The BEST thing about Tyler... he (appears to) fully embraces his role on the TEAM... and the team and coaches totally appreciate it. So do I :cool:

GO DUKE!!!!

[Greg_Newton]

My appreciation for Tyler always increases as the season goes along. May-November, I always want to pencil in someone bigger and more athletic in the rotation. March/April, he's my favorite player on the team.

When you think of his value in terms of the extra possessions and prevented points he provides, it does a lot to offset his lack of production. He does a heckuva lot more than just "hustle".

[duke96]

Well, yesterday Amile wasn't just "decent" on defense, he was outstanding. He played much better defense than Josh did (no offense intended toward Josh). McDermott didn't make a single basket against Amile. Frankly, McDermott didn't get a single good look against Amile. I watched that matchup instead of watching the ball, and Amile never let McDermott get more than a few inches away from him. Amile was the MOTM, in my opinion. It was tremendous to see.

Totally agree. I was courtside at the game and did the same thing (watch that matchup) and every minute Amile was in there McDermott was completely frustrated, with a hand right in his face. Amile worked his butt off. IIRC McD picked up a few fouls on Amile and nailed the free throws, but it seemed like Amile must have been told to play all over him and this was an expected consequence. Felt to me like the momentum of the game shifted very positively when Amile got in there. It was, as you say, tremendous to see (and cheer on!).

Maybe the Creighton game will turn out to be a turning point that those who have been hoping to see more of Amile were waiting for.

[Edouble]

My wife likes to say that she doesn't think K has ever yelled at Tyler. That kid is a shining example of a "Duke" player. Unselfish, plays hard every minute he's on the court, is a great leader, and rarely lets his emotions get the better of him. Sure, he can be a little foul prone from time to time but I never groan when he's on the court. Every minute is likely to be benefitial and his ability to guard anyone on the floor is really valuable.

I remember Tyler getting yanked and yelled at a couple of times his freshman year, but I get your wife's point. I love Tyler Thornton. A guy like him is a great asset in getting to a Final Four/NC.

[wavedukefan70s]

Players like T.T. Are invaluable on teams.you have your stars your superior athletes ect.however you know what your going to get when they are in the game.solid work.not much flash and dash but they make plays when it counts.you can count on them.they are the ultimate teammate.thats my view of how valuable he is.

[Jderf]

All players have limitations. But for me, the real question is whether the team would be better off without Tyler. I honestly can't see how anyone would say 'Yes'. You can wish that he were taller, faster, stronger, etc., but he gives his all and adds quite a bit to the team. 'Nuff said.

This is probably the most sensible take on Tyler and his contributions to the team, in my opinion. I'm not as high on Tyler as some posters around here, who sometimes inflate his tenacity and defense to near-mythic proportions. But I'm also not as down on Tyler as the people who seem to think he's slightly less talented than a rubber tire.

Tyler is a good, maybe even great role player. He has a knack for making hustle plays, he plays great team defense (although his one-on-one defense is only satisfactory, despite what you may have heard), and he's got the ability to surprise opponents with the occasional three. He's also strong and built like a dump truck, and even a bit quicker than most people give him credit for. When he plays ball-denial defense, he makes life miserable for his assignment (almost always incurring a foul or two in the process). Being guarded by Tyler must not be very much fun (the importance of which can't be understated). Most importantly, he knows who he is and what his job is on the team.

Although I think Coach K overplays him just a little (he has a soft spot for those hustle guys), I'm fine with him getting 22 minutes a game. He has undeniably earned it, and he's saved a game single-handed on more than one occasion. Bottom line, this team is better with Tyler on it than without.

[Tripping William]

This is probably the most sensible take on Tyler and his contributions to the team, in my opinion. I'm not as high on Tyler as some posters around here, who sometimes inflate his tenacity and defense to near-mythic proportions. But I'm also not as down on Tyler as the people who seem to think he's slightly less talented than a rubber tire.

Tyler is a good, maybe even great role player. He has a knack for making hustle plays, he plays great team defense (although his one-on-one defense is only satisfactory, despite what you may have heard), and he's got the ability to surprise opponents with the occasional three. He's also strong and built like a dump truck, and even a bit quicker than most people give him credit for. When he plays ball-denial defense, he makes life miserable for his assignment (almost always incurring a foul or two in the process). Being guarded by Tyler must not be very much fun (the importance of which can't be understated). Most importantly, he knows who he is and what his job is on the team.

Although I think Coach K overplays him just a little (he has a soft spot for those hustle guys), I'm fine with him getting 22 minutes a game. He has undeniably earned it, and he's saved a game single-handed on more than one occasion. Bottom line, this team is better with Tyler on it than without.

You're saying TT is not Patrick Davidson? ;)

(I agree with the substance your comments, by the way.)

[sporthenry]

Well I think your friend and anyone with any doubts about his value should feel much better about it now.

[pamtar]

Well I think your friend and anyone with any doubts about his value should feel much better about it now.

Thanks for that. Threads like this just piss me off in general. Just because the kid isn't a superstar he gets nitpicked to death every time he makes a bad play. He's probably more "Duke" than anyone else on the team, save Sheed.

[Duke 81 LA]

Obviously Seth's 29 points make him the MVP, but Tyler's solid play subbing for about 15 minutes in the second half made him co-MVP in this game.

Did he have a turnover?


Thanks for that. Threads like this just piss me off in general. Just because the kid isn't a superstar he gets nitpicked to death every time he makes a bad play. He's probably more "Duke" than anyone else on the team, save Sheed.

[tele]

This is probably the most sensible take on Tyler and his contributions to the team, in my opinion. I'm not as high on Tyler as some posters around here, who sometimes inflate his tenacity and defense to near-mythic proportions. But I'm also not as down on Tyler as the people who seem to think he's slightly less talented than a rubber tire.

Tyler is a good, maybe even great role player. He has a knack for making hustle plays, he plays great team defense (although his one-on-one defense is only satisfactory, despite what you may have heard), and he's got the ability to surprise opponents with the occasional three. He's also strong and built like a dump truck, and even a bit quicker than most people give him credit for. When he plays ball-denial defense, he makes life miserable for his assignment (almost always incurring a foul or two in the process). Being guarded by Tyler must not be very much fun (the importance of which can't be understated). Most importantly, he knows who he is and what his job is on the team.

Although I think Coach K overplays him just a little (he has a soft spot for those hustle guys), I'm fine with him getting 22 minutes a game. He has undeniably earned it, and he's saved a game single-handed on more than one occasion. Bottom line, this team is better with Tyler on it than without.

Well hey, thanks for giving it the old college try.

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks for that. Threads like this just piss me off in general. Just because the kid isn't a superstar he gets nitpicked to death every time he makes a bad play. He's probably more "Duke" than anyone else on the team, save Sheed.

Tried to spork you but must spread the love.

But it could not be said better. If you watched this key game and do not see what a great asset this kid is, I can't help you. K also mentioned his impact. HE MAKES WINNING PLAYS. Love the kid.

[sporthenry]

Thanks for that. Threads like this just piss me off in general. Just because the kid isn't a superstar he gets nitpicked to death every time he makes a bad play. He's probably more "Duke" than anyone else on the team, save Sheed.

I don't know if I'd say he is the most Duke because I think that everyone on the team is pretty Duke. And this reminds me of the 2010 team bc they aren't the most talented Duke roster but they leave it out there and make you beat them.

But this just adds to K's legacy. And any kid who reminds K of himself is good enough for me.

[JasonEvans]

Obviously Seth's 29 points make him the MVP, but Tyler's solid play subbing for about 15 minutes in the second half made him co-MVP in this game.

Did he have a turnover?

According to the boxscore, he had 1. Duke was incredible with the ball tonight. We were turnover free for like 15 minutes of game time, maybe longer. WOW!

-Jason "TT silenced any and all doubters tonight!" Evans

[TNTDevil]

Last two games: 100% from beyond the arc (3-3) and 2-3 from the Charity Stripe.

A fantastic steal, a great hard-foul, tremendous all-around defense. He'll probably never play pro-ball but, damn...I love this kid and his effort.

[Troublemaker]

Led Duke in +/- against Mich St: http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=19783&bView=0

[WillJ]

I've many times bemoaned Tyler's limited offensive skill-set - he's one of the least skilled guards we've had at Duke in a long time - and his overaggressive defense. But I've come to believe that he's of real value to this particular team because it seems to me that none of the starters, with the partial exception of Sulaimon, are quite aggressive enough. I think Tyler brings an attitude that the team really needs and, it's worth noting, the rest of the team obviously loves playing with him. Count me as a convert.

[Starter]

Thornton was excellent against Michigan State in that he wasn't doing what seemed to derail Cook: trying to do too much. Thornton played within his game, harassed everyone on the court and did the things he does well. I was really impressed. I think he's playing by far the best ball of his career right now. Now hopefully Cook gets his act back together; we'll need him to break the press against Louisville. But last night, when he mysteriously went into a funk, Thornton more than fit the bill. And against elite competition, no less.

[dukelifer]

This is probably the most sensible take on Tyler and his contributions to the team, in my opinion. I'm not as high on Tyler as some posters around here, who sometimes inflate his tenacity and defense to near-mythic proportions. But I'm also not as down on Tyler as the people who seem to think he's slightly less talented than a rubber tire.

Tyler is a good, maybe even great role player. He has a knack for making hustle plays, he plays great team defense (although his one-on-one defense is only satisfactory, despite what you may have heard), and he's got the ability to surprise opponents with the occasional three. He's also strong and built like a dump truck, and even a bit quicker than most people give him credit for. When he plays ball-denial defense, he makes life miserable for his assignment (almost always incurring a foul or two in the process). Being guarded by Tyler must not be very much fun (the importance of which can't be understated). Most importantly, he knows who he is and what his job is on the team.

Although I think Coach K overplays him just a little (he has a soft spot for those hustle guys), I'm fine with him getting 22 minutes a game. He has undeniably earned it, and he's saved a game single-handed on more than one occasion. Bottom line, this team is better with Tyler on it than without.

I suspect his value off the court is just as big if not bigger. The kid is a leader and he is helping kids like Rasheed and Quinn to up their toughness. Some players can play better with pressure and some cannot - Tyler is a pressure player who can sometimes play above his ability. I will take that on any Duke team.

[Neals384]

Wojo sent this out on Jan 11. Anyone who doesn't get Tyler's value must watch this video.

"Hello Duke Fans...

As a coach, I am sometimes asked what it takes to win or "What is winning basketball"? Certainly, "winning" is something we try to coach here every day and encourage through our culture.

To help answer the question, we've put together a video on "dirty work." Dirty work includes all the little things that lead to big things and ultimately winning...

*Offensive rebounds that lead to second-chance points

*Steals that lead to run-outs/offense

*Deflections that set the tone defensively

*Defensive rebounding by perimeter players/boxing out when the ball goes up

*Ball pressure on defense/always staying in a stance

*Getting on the floor for loose balls

*Taking a charge (big momentum play/sends a message/foul on them)

*Concentrate for 40 minutes and encourage teammates to do the same

*Every second on the floor: think about what you can do to help the team win

These are just some examples of dirty work. In college basketball today, we feel that no player does a better job with dirty work than Tyler Thornton. He is a player consumed with winning and driven by his love of competing. Box scores do not measure the different things he does over the course of a game that help us win."


Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JRRK7H2kbY&feature=youtu.be

[CDu]

Last night was an absolute clinic in what makes Thornton valuable. He did all of the things that he does well (defend, organize the defense, hit open 3s, show toughness) while avoiding doing the things that he doesn't do well (commit silly fouls - well, he committed some of those but the officials didn't call them, try to do too much offensively). It was one of his best performances in my opinion. He figured out the tenor of the game from the officiating standpoint and he stepped up and made plays. He was not going to let MSU get anything easily. When he realized that the officials were letting the guards play a bit, he took advantage with some fouls (that didn't get called) that stopped scoring chances and/or got us the ball.

Thornton is a smart, aggressive, tough, tenacious player. Yes, he's limited athletically and doesn't have the offensive skills that some of our other guys need. But in a poorly-officiated game like this against a very physical opponent, he can be a godsend. Tonight, he was just that.

I've said in this and other threads that Thornton is less valuable as a PG than he is as a wing. When he was forced to play PG and try to create offense, he struggled. This year, moved off the ball primarily (though he did a terrific job last night of protecting the ball and getting us into the offense), he has flourished at times. I'm very pleased with his development as a player. And I think last night's game should quiet those who think he doesn't have value to the team.

[weezie]

Last night was an absolute clinic in what makes Thornton valuable.

Absolutely. He was particularly wonderful climbing up on Nix for that intentional. I think that brought the message to sparty that Duke wasn't wavering one inch on defense. Nobody was going to be bigger or faster than Duke. I had the impression that it spooked Nix and threw him off balance the rest of the game.

This game officiating was far, far superior to the Creighton game. With the exception of the blown goal tending, nothing made me scream and leap off the couch :rolleyes:

[CDu]

Absolutely. He was particularly wonderful climbing up on Nix for that intentional. I think that brought the message to sparty that Duke wasn't wavering one inch on defense. Nobody was going to be bigger or faster than Duke. I had the impression that it spooked Nix and threw him off balance the rest of the game.

This game officiating was far, far superior to the Creighton game. With the exception of the blown goal tending, nothing made me scream and leap off the couch :rolleyes:

I'd add the 5-step-no-dribble play by Trice late in the game that didn't get called for a travel as well. That was ridiculous.

[killerleft]

I've many times bemoaned Tyler's limited offensive skill-set - he's one of the least skilled guards we've had at Duke in a long time - and his overaggressive defense. But I've come to believe that he's of real value to this particular team because it seems to me that none of the starters, with the partial exception of Sulaimon, are quite aggressive enough. I think Tyler brings an attitude that the team really needs and, it's worth noting, the rest of the team obviously loves playing with him. Count me as a convert.

There's nothing like a backhanded compliment when you need one. Just kidding, I don't think Tyler's play needs any grudging respect at all. But the line about him being so poorly skilled? You, sir, don't know jack.

[greybeard]

Tyler ran the team flawlessly the entire second half when MS went all out to break Duke defensively. He was the fulcrum around which the defense was organized as well. Mason was neutered by foul trouble, Thorton made plays, stops, gained control of loose balls, got in positions that took away that Michigan state tried to do, and perhaps most importantly showed a team intent on beating Duke with toughness how that game is done

He had fewer offensive and defensive shortfall misplays than anyone on the court on either team

They don't win without Curry's having gotten off early and owning the first 30 minutes. Mason scored a number of baskets in a.variety of ways that were back breakers because they gave Duke points that no one on or off the court expected Duke would or could get, most of all, Mix and his coach. But the last 10 minutes on both ends belonged to one guy--Rasheed Thorton

[CDu]

Tyler ran the team flawlessly the entire second half when MS went all out to break Duke defensively. He was the fulcrum around which the defense was organized as well. Mason was neutered by foul trouble, Thorton made plays, stops, gained control of loose balls, got in positions that took away that Michigan state tried to do, and perhaps most importantly showed a team intent on beating Duke with toughness how that game is done

He had fewer offensive and defensive shortfall misplays than anyone on the court on either team

They don't win without Curry's having gotten off early and owning the first 30 minutes. Mason scored a number of baskets in a.variety of ways that were back breakers because they gave Duke points that no one on or off the court expected Duke would or could get, most of all, Mix and his coach. But the last 10 minutes on both ends belonged to one guy--Rasheed Thorton

Spot on. Curry kept us afloat in the first half and well into the second half. Sulaimon took us home from there. But the story throughout was defense, and that was led by Thornton.

I gave the MVP to Curry (because I don't think we win if he's not on fire), but Thornton and Sulaimon were not far short of that honor with their play.

And aside from a couple of costly miscues around the rim, Mason was terrific as well.

[devildeac]

From Adam Gold's wralsportsfan blog this AM:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/thornton-saves-the-blue-devils/12285660/

Really good read echoing a lot of our thoughts here. Wonder if Mr. Gold reads our posts...

[Newton_14]

Last night was an absolute clinic in what makes Thornton valuable. He did all of the things that he does well (defend, organize the defense, hit open 3s, show toughness) while avoiding doing the things that he doesn't do well (commit silly fouls - well, he committed some of those but the officials didn't call them, try to do too much offensively). It was one of his best performances in my opinion. He figured out the tenor of the game from the officiating standpoint and he stepped up and made plays. He was not going to let MSU get anything easily. When he realized that the officials were letting the guards play a bit, he took advantage with some fouls (that didn't get called) that stopped scoring chances and/or got us the ball.

Thornton is a smart, aggressive, tough, tenacious player. Yes, he's limited athletically and doesn't have the offensive skills that some of our other guys need. But in a poorly-officiated game like this against a very physical opponent, he can be a godsend. Tonight, he was just that.

I've said in this and other threads that Thornton is less valuable as a PG than he is as a wing. When he was forced to play PG and try to create offense, he struggled. This year, moved off the ball primarily (though he did a terrific job last night of protecting the ball and getting us into the offense), he has flourished at times. I'm very pleased with his development as a player. And I think last night's game should quiet those who think he doesn't have value to the team.

Totally agree and like you, I said before the season that I like him better on the wing, especially when guarding the bigger wings vs smaller, quicker wings. I remember attending the 2nd exhibition game in Cameron, (one of Quinn's worst games of the year), and Tyler was all over the place on defense and knocked down his open jumpers. I commented in that post-game thread that Tyler was the best Duke player on the floor that night and got ripped for it, but he was. He was not the best player on the floor last night, but he played one heck of a game. I thought maybe K would bring Quinn back with about 3 to go to help with the press, but Tyler was playing so well there was no need too.

I have said it many times, but the guy just knows how to play and direct Duke's defense. He's a mini Billy King. He has helped this team a lot this year. He knows his limits and for the most part stays within himself offensively. A really good player to bring off the bench to bring toughness and defense.

[greybeard]

There was a play near the end, outcome undecided, that sums it up. MS big grabs offensive rebound on right side of the lane and turns towards the middle with a look that said "it begins," only before it does it gets ripped from his hands in truly Thortoness fashion. No change of expression, no loss of focus, eyes looking down the court. So we're Thorton's who was standing next to Rasheed and paused for a nano a second and put both hands on Rasheed's head. Duke.

[SupaDave]

Today's assignment: Russ Smith. Let's go Tyler!