PDA

View Full Version : Key Reasons for NCSU Underachieving??



drcharl
03-22-2013, 03:00 PM
What were the main reasons that NCST underachieved so much this year - capped off by getting pretty much dominated today?

Mabdul Doobakus
03-22-2013, 03:08 PM
I hardly consider myself any kind of expert on NC State basketball, so I won't waste anyone's time offering possible reasons for their underachieving. But...given their tournament performance was very much in line with the performance the entire season...at some point you have to ask yourself when underachieving really just means they were overrated to begin with. I was surprised to see them ranked in the Top 5 at the start of the season, but, again, I'm hardly the world's expert.

NSDukeFan
03-22-2013, 03:10 PM
What were the main reasons that NCST underachieved so much this year - capped off by getting pretty much dominated today?

I think part of it was expectations. Because they made the big run in the NCAA tournament last year after a mediocre year, they were thought of as better than they actually were. They returned almost everyone from a team that had a poor year last year, but a nice run in the tournament. They certainly have talent and can compete with anyone, but never showed they could do it consistently. At least that's my impression.

fuse
03-22-2013, 03:16 PM
What were the main reasons that NCST underachieved so much this year - capped off by getting pretty much dominated today?

I did not get to see the game today, but I think State's key issues are culture and chemistry.
You have to develop a winning culture and State is much more comfortable hunting than being the hunted.
I wish I could do a tenth of what Calvin? CJ? (get confused- which is which?) Leslie does on the basketball court, but as we have criticized some emotional Duke players, CJ's negative emotion seems to impact State pretty heavily.

I think Gottfried is trying to build the right culture and chemistry, but that is something that takes time.

OldSchool
03-22-2013, 03:21 PM
The talent they had this year justified lofty expectations. But not the smartest basketball team in the world - dumb fouls at the most inopportune moments, lack of concentration leading to turnovers, defensive lapses. They were at their best when they were just playing without thinking - moving the ball around quickly, making the extra pass, getting out and running. When they got stuck they reverted to trying to beat the other team with one guy, such as Wood hitting threes or Leslie trying to force it to the rim by himself.

hurleyfor3
03-22-2013, 03:23 PM
You might as well title a thread, "Key Reasons For Chicago Cubs Underachieving".

They're State; that's what they do.

loran16
03-22-2013, 03:25 PM
Spot the similarities:

2003 Bama: #35 O, #61 D
2004 Bama: #16 O, #50 D
2005 Bama: #8 O, #52 D
2006 Bama: #19 O, #106 D
2007 Bama: #31 O, #99 D
2008 Bama: #50 O, #101 D
2009 Bama: #103 O, #84 D
2012 NCS: #32 O, #65 D
2013 NCS: #9 O, #105 D

Gottfried has a history of good to great offenses, horrible D. It's not going to get better

sporthenry
03-22-2013, 03:25 PM
I think it is coaching. It is either coaching or just the players not following the game plan, which at some point, becomes coaching b/c why are you recruiting players who can't be taught.

I didn't see how Temple got their big lead but they left Temple's best 3 point shooter wide open several times and he isn't much of a threat elsewhere and he had 18 points. They gave up rebounds on Temple free throws. They finally get back into the game and they go away from got them there. Down 3 they had a chance to push the ball and decided to play slowly. Yes, they got a shot for Wood and all of his shots are good shots but it was still a contested shot with him fading away.

The game had a lot of issues including the refs being terrible, inconsistent, and bailing out Temple throughout the 2nd half but NC State should have won going away.

77devil
03-22-2013, 03:28 PM
State players get up for Duke and play their best game of the season otherwise they play like a group of individuals thinking about the NBA.

Mudge
03-22-2013, 03:29 PM
What were the main reasons that NCST underachieved so much this year - capped off by getting pretty much dominated today?

Today's loss was as predictable as the sun rising-- or picking Missouri to get beat-- NC State is full of players more impressed with themselves than they ought to be. Somebody on one of the channels (CBS Sports) kept trying to say that this team (NC State in 2013) was "bored with the regular season", and was "just ready for the tournament to start"-- what a laughable concept-- this team has never accomplished anything or won anything, so for them to be bored with the season and waiting for the tournament to start was ridiculous on its face, if true-- they were lucky to be IN the tournament.

Of course, these guys commenting for these channels are hardly known for their insight-- I just heard Kenny Smith talking about what a great team Miami has, saying that "Coach Larranaga has done a great job recruiting the kind of guys that can play his system"-- never mind that not one of the guys that is starting for Miami is a Larranaga recruit--they are all Frank Haith's recruits...

(You remember Frank-- he's the guy who DBR's editors keep saying can't coach, as DBR regularly also used to say about Leonard Hamilton-- even though Hamilton built Miami into a Top 20-type team, did well at Oklahoma State, and re-built Florida State, after the debacle that was Steve Robinson-- who DBR couldn't stop fawning over, despite Robinson having virtually no success at all at FSU, after inheriting a highly winning program from Pat Kennedy-- another guy that DBR constantly disparaged, even though he won waaaay more than DBR's golden boy-wonders, Steve Robinson and Quin Snyder... seems like DBR doesn't take winning games into account, when they decide who is a good coach, and who is not... funny to see how much Haith has won at Missouri, while Quin got fired there-- both for losing and for bringing in bad character guys, while both Kennedy and Hamilton have won more than 60% of their games at FSU, while Robinson had a losing record there.)

Bob Green
03-22-2013, 03:30 PM
What were the main reasons that NCST underachieved so much this year - capped off by getting pretty much dominated today?

Sounds like a great thread for Pack Pride, but I'm not sure the topic deserves its own thread on DBR. This could be discussed in the This Week in the ACC Thread. Oh well, it is March Madness, which on DBR equates to New Thread Diarrhea.

BD80
03-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Those who criticize Coach K for not playing Amile, Alex and Marshall more should watch NCState play. There are consistent breakdowns on both sides of the ball that just kill any continuity the team builds. There can be no trust on defense, because the players simply don't consistently know where they or their teammates should be as the ball moves through and around the paint. There are bursts of raw talent and athleticism, but they don't yet have the level of discipline to consistently win at the highest level.

Mudge
03-22-2013, 03:34 PM
you might as well title a thread, "key reasons for chicago cubs underachieving".

They're state; that's what they do.

BlNGO!

hurleyfor3
03-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Sounds like a great thread for Pack Pride, but I'm not sure the topic deserves its own thread on DBR. This could be discussed in the This Week in the ACC Thread. Oh well, it is March Madness, which on DBR equates to New Thread Diarrhea.

I think it's a fair question. This could have been the year NCSU took their great leap forward. Personally I want to see the Pack do well, but they're no less frustrating than they were under Sendek and Lowe.

Duvall
03-22-2013, 03:37 PM
Sounds like a great thread for Pack Pride, but I'm not sure the topic deserves its own thread on DBR. This could be discussed in the This Week in the ACC Thread. Oh well, it is March Madness, which on DBR equates to New Thread Diarrhea.

Are you really worried that the board will be overtaken by NC State chatter? This will probably be the last NC State thread until the pre-game thread for the football game.

rsvman
03-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Shoulda kept Sendek.

Then they could make the tournament frequently even without good talent.

G man
03-22-2013, 04:33 PM
Chemistry and Quality. I completely agree with those above who mentioned this!

75Crazie
03-22-2013, 04:42 PM
C.J. Leslie again channeling his inner Willie Hodge.

CoachJ10
03-22-2013, 05:15 PM
Like most teams...the play of the point guard sets the tone for the entire team. Lorenzo Brown is just not a good point guard. He makes poor decisions on offense...and doesn't put forth an effort on defense. This season's Pack team had a lot of talented weapons...they could have used a point guard who played smart, within himself...and who tried to utilize all the strengths that his teammates had. Lo Brown didn't meet the challenge.

Chris Randolph
03-22-2013, 06:18 PM
The inmates run the asylum

CDu
03-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Lack of willingness to focus on defense (both the players and the coach).

Lack of discipline, leading to sloppy play and dumb mistakes.

Emotionally fragile team that doesn't handle adversity well.

JNort
03-22-2013, 09:27 PM
I have seen almost every game they have played this season and it's a mixture of: Coaching, defense, and leadership (also on occasion lack of depth)

The coaching and defense sort of go hand in hand but the leadership has been a killer. CJ is a "me" player, and the rest of them are so quiet and don't like to take charge and get in each others faces or step up. If Lorenz comes back next year and CJ leaves I fully expect them to win the ACC next year.

-bdbd
03-22-2013, 09:32 PM
Lack of willingness to focus on defense (both the players and the coach).

Lack of discipline, leading to sloppy play and dumb mistakes.

Emotionally fragile team that doesn't handle adversity well.



If ever a team was built to mimic its fanbase, this would be it!

roywhite
03-22-2013, 09:40 PM
Lack of willingness to focus on defense (both the players and the coach).

Lack of discipline, leading to sloppy play and dumb mistakes.

Emotionally fragile team that doesn't handle adversity well.

Nor is their coach particularly good at teaching or game management (for example, often using Tyler Lewis for just a few minutes a game, thereby wearing down Lorenzo Brown).

arnie
03-23-2013, 07:28 AM
Nor is their coach particularly good at teaching or game management (for example, often using Tyler Lewis for just a few minutes a game, thereby wearing down Lorenzo Brown).

According to people I work with and Pack Pride, its bad officiating. Of course, every time State loses (or for that matter, plays) the officials screw them. I wonder why the refs have it in for them??

wilko
03-23-2013, 07:58 AM
Spot the similarities:

2003 Bama: #35 O, #61 D
2004 Bama: #16 O, #50 D
2005 Bama: #8 O, #52 D
2006 Bama: #19 O, #106 D
2007 Bama: #31 O, #99 D
2008 Bama: #50 O, #101 D
2009 Bama: #103 O, #84 D
2012 NCS: #32 O, #65 D
2013 NCS: #9 O, #105 D

Gottfried has a history of good to great offenses, horrible D. It's not going to get better

Gottfried is Cliff Ellis. Great talent zippo results.
I remember when K made a "statement" and benched Greg Newton late in the season when playing him would have probably eked out a few more wins. He made a stand and it said "Call me Sinatra; We doing this MY way. and you can sit until that's clear to EVERYBODY". Gott has made no such "stand" or Statement that Im aware of.

You think State was bad this yr?
Imagine if Harrow had STAYED... I'm sure one more unstable person would have made it all better.

Now imagine that roster being coached by K.... theres your difference.

Newton_14
03-23-2013, 08:33 AM
I hardly consider myself any kind of expert on NC State basketball, so I won't waste anyone's time offering possible reasons for their underachieving. But...given their tournament performance was very much in line with the performance the entire season...at some point you have to ask yourself when underachieving really just means they were overrated to begin with. I was surprised to see them ranked in the Top 5 at the start of the season, but, again, I'm hardly the world's expert.

I think this was it in a nutshell. They lost key pieces from last years team in Painter (transfer) and CJ Williams (graduation). They only had 2 post players, both undersized. Both were good, but foul prone on occasion, plus Leslie is still inmature. So no post depth at all. They only had one reliable 3 point threat in Wood, who is probably the best poor shooter in the nation, but because he was the only shooter, it was easier for defenses to keep him covered most of the time with help defense. Plus, State did an incredibly poor job all year of getting Wood shots. Imagine him in a Duke uniform. K would have run 100 sets to get him looks. The final flaw was the biggest in that there were an average to below average defensive team and lacked the passion to play defense with urgency.

They had basically a 6 man rotation, 7 on occasion with Lewis. 2 of the top 6 were freshman, 3 of the top 7 were freshman. Talented, but with enough warts to make them a top 25ish team. Nothing close to Top 5.

That said, the did lose a ton of close games, several in the last minute. If the ball bounces their way a few more times like it did for Miami early in the year, then the season goes a different route. A higher seed, more confidence, and perhaps they would still be playing today. I still don't believe they were ever a Final Four caliber team though.

Buckeye Devil
03-23-2013, 08:43 AM
Overrated.

Under - coached.

Plus, this year, they ran into a pretty decent coach in Fran Dunphy

Tripping William
03-23-2013, 08:46 AM
State is like a box of chocolates.

moonpie23
03-23-2013, 08:46 AM
over reaction to last seasons ncaa run at the end of a mediocre year helped fuel the expectations. Talent they had, game-plan, not so much.

CDu
03-23-2013, 09:17 AM
over reaction to last seasons ncaa run at the end of a mediocre year helped fuel the expectations. Talent they had, game-plan, not so much.

While there was some overreaction to their run last year, another part of the problem was that Lorenzo Brown and CJ Leslie took a bit of a step back this year rather than getting better. Brown's step back may have been in part due to his injury, but I think the expectation was that he'd make another jump. Leslie was certainly expected to establish himself as a 1st team All-ACC caliber player. Both had solid years, but both just kind of hovered at about the same place they were last year. As did Scott Wood. Only Richard Howell got better from last year to this year. That's a problem.

Another thing was understating the loss of CJ Williams (the team's best defender) and Painter (the team's capable backup at both PF and C). Without those two, they lost their interior versatility and they lost their defensive toughness.

Put it all together and you get a team that wasn't that much better than last year's team, even though the talent was better.

oldnavy
03-23-2013, 10:27 AM
I am not sure that the coach runs that "deep" if you will. Gott seems like an OK guy, but I get the sense he is more about appearences and such than he is about building a really good program or even coaching talent. I have no data to back it up, but that is just an impression I get from watching him.

State had as much talent this year as about anybody in the league, but they did not play consistently and as a result this year was a epic fail compared to expectations. I have to put that on the coach.

Like someone else said, give Coach K NCSU's roster and what do you think would happen??

tele
03-23-2013, 10:50 AM
You might as well title a thread, "Key Reasons For Chicago Cubs Underachieving".

They're State; that's what they do.

The Cubs are rebuilding; otherwise, as any close follower of baseball would know, "this would have been our year".

State's problems revolved around having the right players and the wrong coach and then having the right coach and the wrong players. Other than that they did fine.

drcharl
03-23-2013, 11:03 AM
But what continues to attract some quality players to sign on to this program? What sells them? Program has been moving up the recruiting rankings.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-23-2013, 12:15 PM
According to people I work with and Pack Pride, its bad officiating. Of course, every time State loses (or for that matter, plays) the officials screw them. I wonder why the refs have it in for them??

For the record, I agree with the general sentiment on this board - talent without teamwork. It doesn't bode well when the chips are down or when you encounter adversity.

However... the refs sure didn't do them any favors. Granted, they spotted Temple a huge lead, but once they made their run, there were about three calls in the last 90 seconds that were at the very least questionable.

Go Duke!

arnie
03-23-2013, 04:58 PM
For the record, I agree with the general sentiment on this board - talent without teamwork. It doesn't bode well when the chips are down or when you encounter adversity.

However... the refs sure didn't do them any favors. Granted, they spotted Temple a huge lead, but once they made their run, there were about three calls in the last 90 seconds that were at the very least questionable.

Go Duke!

Yes. State was ambushed by the refs again and again and again. Living in the Raleigh area, you'd think the FBI or at least SBI would investigate ref corruption.

dukeofcalabash
03-23-2013, 05:20 PM
Yes. State was ambushed by the refs again and again and again. Living in the Raleigh area, you'd think the FBI or at least SBI would investigate ref corruption.

Very few players can win a game single handedly. It takes teamwork for at least a major portion of the game. I believe that the team over at Tractor University has some athletic young men on the team, but they are lacking in the teamwork area. Another way of saying it's all in the mental area or lack thereof.

chrishoke
03-23-2013, 06:10 PM
Attitude - the team and fan base - it's always somebody else's fault - that's the first thing coach k would change.

Duvall
03-23-2013, 06:17 PM
But what continues to attract some quality players to sign on to this program? What sells them? Program has been moving up the recruiting rankings.

Well, the program's in a better place than it was a few years ago - Gottfried's no-defense teams are still an improvement over Lowe's bad-at-everything teams.

dyedwab
03-23-2013, 08:31 PM
If everybody on State played as hard as Richard Howell did all the time, we wouldn't be having a discussion about State underachieving. We'd be assessing that perhaps, as has been stated, that they may have been overrated to begin with.

But Richard Howell....I hope that guy lands somewhere great, because he deserves a dozen years of pro paycheck. He plays the game with respect.

davekay1971
03-23-2013, 09:42 PM
Very few players can win a game single handedly. It takes teamwork for at least a major portion of the game. I believe that the team over at Tractor University has some athletic young men on the team, but they are lacking in the teamwork area. Another way of saying it's all in the mental area or lack thereof.

Generally agree with your assessment of why State didn't live up to expectations this year, but I loathe the Tractor University shot. It's inaccurate, and it sounds like the kind of elitist crap people who hate Duke believe we think. I hear the Moo U stuff from the Tarheel fans all the time, and I'd rather leave it with them, because they really are the elitist snobs of the Triangle.

JNort
03-23-2013, 11:44 PM
I thought stayed played really well with Lewis and Brown in at the same time. Those two and Purvis are the only ones who could handle the ball well enough to do something with it. I think Gott should have paired Lewis with Brown more, brought Wood off the bench as a 6th man to give the opposing defense time to wear down a bit and allow Wood to cover a more tired player (His D is atrocious!), started Warren more often at the SF slot with Leslie and Howell in the post. Purvis could be the 7th man and not feel as pressured to do so much.

wilko
03-24-2013, 08:32 AM
If Gottfried is hired away from State by UCLA, Yow should send a couple of semi-trucks of BBQ sandwiches to UCLA as a thank you!

That would be be deserving of a big Thank you! If Gotts teams implode when they HAVE talent... imagine what will happen in a down year?

Best thing that can happen is for Gott to walk away and give Yow a free pass at a re-do to hire a new HC and get a guy to rebuild the program from scratch.