PDA

View Full Version : Randle to Kentucky



Ichabod Drain
03-20-2013, 01:22 PM
Despite an ugly season for Kentucky culminating in their first round exit from the NIT, Juslius Randle just commited to UK to play basketball next year.

CLW
03-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Despite an ugly season for Kentucky culminating in their first round exit from the NIT, Juslius Randle just commited to UK to play basketball next year.

At this point what can stop the recruiting machine that is Calipari/Kentucky? They just finished an AWFUL season losing in the 1st round of the N.I.T. and the next day they get the #3 player in the class. Would the kids still go when/if the probation hammer comes to Lexington?

CDu
03-20-2013, 01:30 PM
Despite an ugly season for Kentucky culminating in their first round exit from the NIT, Juslius Randle just commited to UK to play basketball next year.

That gives UK the top PG, SG, PF, and C prospects in next year's class (unless you count Parker as a PF, then Randle is the #2 PF). They also have the #2 C and #3 SF and are in the running for the #1 SF.

I think any celebration of the demise of Calipari's one-and-done shop is a bit premature.

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2013, 01:33 PM
They got 7 guys coming, 8 if Wiggins signs. How many guys other than Noel leave for the pros?

Duvall
03-20-2013, 01:37 PM
They got 7 guys coming, 8 if Wiggins signs. How many guys other than Noel leave for the pros?

More importantly, how many other guys will also be leaving, just not for the pros?

MarkD83
03-20-2013, 01:39 PM
Calipari sad the best day in Ky basketball was draft day last year. He can get as many top recruits as he wants as long as they play in the NIT and then go to the NBA.

This is perhaps a good time to list the factors that go into making an NCAA champion

1. Talented players (Ky gets those but so do a lot of teams)
2. Experienced players (Ky had those last year but not this year..recall because of the NBA lock out quite a few upper classman stayed at Ky even though they should have gone into the draft)
3. Leadership on the court (this can go along with experience but some players have it and some don't and it does not track with talent level.)
4. Lack of injuries (Ky was on the wrong end of that this year and Duke has had their unfair share of this in the past)
5. Team defense (again this is not related to talent level since High School rankings are almost always related to offensive stats.)
6. A good draw in the NCAA tournament

I am sure there are others and this might be a topic for a separate thread but it is worth thinking about when looking at the talent Ky brings in each year. One other quick observation,

Dino Gaudio made two great comments last night after the Ky game...to paraphrase

"perhaps we should evaluate recruiting classes after they have played a year in college"
"being a high draft pick does not mean you can play in the NBA"

JasonEvans
03-20-2013, 01:39 PM
FWIW, here is how the various draft sites project the current Kentucky freshmen:

Noel - NBDraft.Net #4, Draftexpress #1, ESPN #2
Cauley-Stein - NBDraft.Net #9, Draftexpress #10 (in 2014), ESPN #16
Goodwin - NBDraft.Net #28, Draftexpress #18, ESPN #20
Poythress - NBDraft.Net #20 (in 2014), Draftexpress #15, ESPN #13

Seems likely that all 4 would see themselves as first round locks if they come out this year. Other than Goodwin, the other guys all are projected by some to be lottery picks. I am not sure who Calipari was talking about as uncoachable and the such in his horrible newser after the game, but these kids know how he feels about them. I bet at least a couple of them head to the NBA.

-Jason "all these guys (except Noel) need to worry about minutes next year with the ridiculous freshman class coming in at Kentucky" Evans

CDu
03-20-2013, 01:39 PM
They got 7 guys coming, 8 if Wiggins signs. How many guys other than Noel leave for the pros?

Right now, UK has only 6 recruited players (not counting Noel) returning, so they don't need anyone else to go pro. But both Goodwin and Cauley-Stein could make the jump and be first-round picks.

DUKIECB
03-20-2013, 01:41 PM
They got 7 guys coming, 8 if Wiggins signs. How many guys other than Noel leave for the pros?

Can someone smarter than me and more time on their hands breakdown the scholarship situation at Kentucky? It seems to me like they are going to have enough basketball players to be able to field a football team next year. :confused:

Class of '94
03-20-2013, 01:41 PM
They got 7 guys coming, 8 if Wiggins signs. How many guys other than Noel leave for the pros?

Based on the guys that are coming and guys that are still there, I can't see Wiggins going to KY (too many guys at his and Randle's position). Unless several keys guys leave, it's going to be interesting to see how Calipari is going to distribute minutes with the current incoming recruits he has coming. This really could be a case of too much talent, especially when the chemistry wasn't good with this year's team; and unless they are forced out, many of those guys will be back.

rsvman
03-20-2013, 01:47 PM
That gives UK the top PG, SG, PF, and C prospects in next year's class (unless you count Parker as a PF, then Randle is the #2 PF). They also have the #2 C and #3 SF and are in the running for the #1 SF.

I think any celebration of the demise of Calipari's one-and-done shop is a bit premature.
True.

On the other hand, this year's team was supposed to be a juggernaut, as well.

I suspect next year's version won't be nearly as bad as this year's, and yet not nearly as good as the team that won it all last year. Remember the 2010 Kentucky team? That team was loaded to the gills with great talent and was a very good team. However, they got beat by West Virginia in the tournament (and West Virginia was subsequently dismantled by some team.....can't quite remember who, but it will come to me after a while).


So, although I agree that celebration of the "demise" of the system is premature, I don't necessarily think that next year's team will be proof that the system is awesome, either.

JasonEvans
03-20-2013, 01:48 PM
unless they are forced out, many of those guys will be back.

It sounds like Ryan Harrow fully expects to be forced out. From the middle of this article (http://www.kentucky.com/2013/03/20/2564996/three-uk-freshman-indicate-theyll.html#wgt=rcntnews)...


Although he spoke about wanting to return to UK next season, Harrow acknowledged that Calipari has veto power over any player's wishes.

"If I can come back, I will come back," he said. "If I can't, I'll just have to make decisions, really."

How much of a colossal @^&@^!@ is Calipari that his kids are this aware he may cut them loose and pull their scholarship? Has Duke ever done this? At Kentucky, it is clear that you either perform the way Cal expects you to on the court, or you go somewhere else for your "education."

-Jason "if he were not real, you would think someone had invented Calipari to be a villain in a story" Evans

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 01:49 PM
Right now, UK has only 6 recruited players (not counting Noel) returning, so they don't need anyone else to go pro. But both Goodwin and Cauley-Stein could make the jump and be first-round picks.

They are still actively recruiting Wiggins and Aaron Gordon. There are rumors of a plan to run off Harrow and possibly Hood, who as a graduating fifth-year senior, could do the transfer and play right away deal.

I don't know. This class is so good, UK will be dynamite next year. Just a crazy way to run a program and a crazy system that allows for it.

Calipari can trash his team, primp and preen, undercut the character of his players, lose in weak fashion to Bobby Mo, and cash another recruit. And I don't think he's even cheating doing it. He's just built up a ridiculous platform to feign interest in school, live in a dedicated building of just athletes, and revel in an artificial spotlight of ESPN and BBN glory. It's kind of amazing. Filthy, but amazing.

JasonEvans
03-20-2013, 01:51 PM
On the other hand, this year's team was supposed to be a juggernaut, as well.

True. Pre-season #3 and everyone said, after they lost early, that they would learn to play together and would be a BEAST come February and March. Apparently, Robert Morris didn't get the memo ;)

-Jason "and don't go citing Noel's injury as some death blow. They were hardly world beaters even before that -- likely about a #10 seed in the tourney" Evans

timmy c
03-20-2013, 01:52 PM
Gone:
Long, Lanter, Malone - walk-ons
Mays - 5th year graduate student
Noel - despite injury, he's a lottery pick

Mostly gone:
Hood (redshirt junior with enough credits to graduate)
Polson (rumored to have enough credits to graduate early)
both of these players could play a graduate year at another program

Who is left:
Wiltjer and Harrow - stuck at the end of the bench
Poythress, Cauley-Stein, Goodwin - fighting for minutes

5 returning scholarship players plus the giant recruiting class still leaves room for Wiggins or Gordon.

CDu
03-20-2013, 01:55 PM
Can someone smarter than me and more time on their hands breakdown the scholarship situation at Kentucky? It seems to me like they are going to have enough basketball players to be able to field a football team next year. :confused:

They have 12 guys on scholarship right now. 1 of those guys is a senior (Mays), 4 are walk-ons who were granted a scholarship this season due to extra availability, and 1 is all but guaranteed to go pro (Noel). That leaves potentially 6 guys returning with scholarships. They have 7 guys coming in. That would be 13, which is the limit.

That being said, I'd be shocked if at least 1 or 2 more guys don't go pro, opening up playing time and scholarships. UK is in the hunt for two more members of the top 15 recruits, including the #1 overall player in the class (Wiggins).

And of course, a guy like Hood could graduate and play somewhere else next year rather than get no PT as a senior.

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 01:56 PM
They are still actively recruiting Wiggins and Aaron Gordon. There are rumors of a plan to run off Harrow and possibly Hood, who as a graduating fifth-year senior, could do the transfer and play right away deal.

I don't know. This class is so good, UK will be dynamite next year. Just a crazy way to run a program and a crazy system that allows for it.

Calipari can trash his team, primp and preen, undercut the character of his players, lose in weak fashion to Bobby Mo, and cash another recruit. And I don't think he's even cheating doing it. He's just built up a ridiculous platform to feign interest in school, live in a dedicated building of just athletes, and revel in an artificial spotlight of ESPN and BBN glory. It's kind of amazing. Filthy, but amazing.

Could not agree more. On every point. You may hate Calipari (I know I do), but you absolutely cannot blame him for this. If the system allows it, then unfortunately it's legit. I too do not think he is doing anything illegal / or cheating. He essentially built up such a reputation that money would play 2nd fiddle for recruits.

The NCAA needs a "jump to the NBA from high school" or "stay in college for at least 2 years rule". Kentucky turning into an NBA D-league is, as crimsonandblue stated perfectly, "filthy".

CrazyNotCrazie
03-20-2013, 02:09 PM
Based on the guys that are coming and guys that are still there, I can't see Wiggins going to KY (too many guys at his and Randle's position). Unless several keys guys leave, it's going to be interesting to see how Calipari is going to distribute minutes with the current incoming recruits he has coming. This really could be a case of too much talent, especially when the chemistry wasn't good with this year's team; and unless they are forced out, many of those guys will be back.

I don't think having too many guys at his position is an issue for Wiggins. If he is as good as everyone says he is, he should be able to start ahead of these guys. Guys at that level usually get to where they do because they have a lot of self-confidence, and I'm sure he is pretty confident he can outplay all of his competition.

BigWayne
03-20-2013, 02:11 PM
Can someone smarter than me and more time on their hands breakdown the scholarship situation at Kentucky? It seems to me like they are going to have enough basketball players to be able to field a football team next year. :confused:

There are people that do it as a business of sorts:

http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/kentucky

CDu
03-20-2013, 02:14 PM
I don't think having too many guys at his position is an issue for Wiggins. If he is as good as everyone says he is, he should be able to start ahead of these guys. Guys at that level usually get to where they do because they have a lot of self-confidence, and I'm sure he is pretty confident he can outplay all of his competition.

Yup. If anything, Wiggins would more likely push Poythress to the draft rather than Poythress preventing Wiggins from committing.

And the talk of chemistry issues is, I think, bogus. I think the bigger issue was that UK didn't have a PG (Harrow was a HUGE disappointment), didn't have enough guys who could create their own shot (pretty much only Goodwin could do it consistently, and he was sloppy with the ball), and didn't have enough toughness defensively (pretty much just Noel).

It wasn't so much a chemistry issue as it was a talent issue (especially after Noel got hurt). Next year's team shouldn't have as many of those issues, especially if Goodwin comes back.

BD80
03-20-2013, 02:33 PM
It sounds like Ryan Harrow fully expects to be forced out. From the middle of this article (http://www.kentucky.com/2013/03/20/2564996/three-uk-freshman-indicate-theyll.html#wgt=rcntnews)...



How much of a colossal @^&@^!@ is Calipari that his kids are this aware he may cut them loose and pull their scholarship? ...

-Jason "if he were not real, you would think someone had invented Calipari to be a villain in a story" Evans


... There are rumors of a plan to run off Harrow ...

Wouldn't that totally screw Harrow? He's burned his redshirt/extra year transferring from NCSt to Ky. He's played 2 years but only has 2 left to compete. If he's forced out, he'll only get to play one more year, after sitting out another transfer year.

These kind of stories will pile up around calipari.

So will the stories of his one-and-dones that don't do well in the pros. cal got VERY lucky with kids like Kidd-Gilchrist and Davis, they were pro ready, cal didn't have to do anything. The true test is whether the cal/ky year adds pro value to these kids. Running off players indicates to me that cal CAN'T develop players, he can ONLY win with great players.

The real downfall will be continued "team chemistry" issues. Getting a parade of kids who envision themselves one year from the pros is not condusive to team chemistry. Kids that envision themselves playing for a spot in the first round of the NBA draft will tend to care more about their touches than being an effective decoy, or being the first one back on D. Again, cal got lucky with last-years one-and-dones, not just uniquely talented, but selfless kids. He's due for a couple of real team-killer ego trips

WakeDevil
03-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Could not agree more. On every point. You may hate Calipari (I know I do), but you absolutely cannot blame him for this. If the system allows it, then unfortunately it's legit. I too do not think he is doing anything illegal / or cheating. He essentially built up such a reputation that money would play 2nd fiddle for recruits.

The NCAA needs a "jump to the NBA from high school" or "stay in college for at least 2 years rule". Kentucky turning into an NBA D-league is, as crimsonandblue stated perfectly, "filthy".

No, we need to allow people to make their own decisions about when they want to make the jump.

75Crazie
03-20-2013, 02:42 PM
The NCAA needs a "jump to the NBA from high school" or "stay in college for at least 2 years rule". Kentucky turning into an NBA D-league is, as crimsonandblue stated perfectly, "filthy".
No. The NBA (and NFL) needs to create a real farm system, pure and simple. The requirement for a high school basketball or football player to attend college, no matter for how long, in order to progress to the major leagues is an abomination. A farm system, in conjunction with an alternate path that does involve colleges, works very well for baseball -- I see no reason it shouldn't work just as well for basketball or football.

Until something like that happens (which will be never), the current college-based system is ripe for abuse.

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 02:44 PM
Wouldn't that totally screw Harrow? He's burned his redshirt/extra year transferring from NCSt to Ky. He's played 2 years but only has 2 left to compete. If he's forced out, he'll only get to play one more year, after sitting out another transfer year.

These kind of stories will pile up around calipari.

So will the stories of his one-and-dones that don't do well in the pros. cal got VERY lucky with kids like Kidd-Gilchrist and Davis, they were pro ready, cal didn't have to do anything. The true test is whether the cal/ky year adds pro value to these kids. Running off players indicates to me that cal CAN'T develop players, he can ONLY win with great players.

The real downfall will be continued "team chemistry" issues. Getting a parade of kids who envision themselves one year from the pros is not condusive to team chemistry. Kids that envision themselves playing for a spot in the first round of the NBA draft will tend to care more about their touches than being an effective decoy, or being the first one back on D. Again, cal got lucky with last-years one-and-dones, not just uniquely talented, but selfless kids. He's due for a couple of real team-killer ego trips

I have to disagree with this. Cal had a TERRIBLE year this year. Just terrible. Rumored "chemistry issues," throwing players under the bus, potential busts in Harrow, Poythress, and Goodwin. I really don't think it could get worse for Calipari. Yet, he gets another recruit in an already stacked class (a player that Duke recruited fairly hard and is seen as a good kid). It's gonna take a lot to get recruits to no longer buy into Calipari's plan.

I think the only thing that can stop the Calipari train is his inevitable jump to the NBA. There, he will be found out (again) and resort to coming back to a college team that doesn't care about educating their students.

I hate to say it, but if I were a top 10 player, I would absolutely see the incentive of joining a Calipari team. The business he built in Kentucky screams NBA, even if Kentucky doesn't prep you any better than the next program.

vick
03-20-2013, 02:46 PM
The real downfall will be continued "team chemistry" issues. Getting a parade of kids who envision themselves one year from the pros is not condusive to team chemistry. Kids that envision themselves playing for a spot in the first round of the NBA draft will tend to care more about their touches than being an effective decoy, or being the first one back on D. Again, cal got lucky with last-years one-and-dones, not just uniquely talented, but selfless kids. He's due for a couple of real team-killer ego trips

I think this is somewhat wishful thinking. Last year's UK team was unusually balanced (not just for a young team, but for any team), but the 2010 team was also reasonably balanced (top scorers 16.6, 15.1, 14.3, and 11.3 points per game), which did not hurt them at all in the draft, with 5 first round picks including #1 and #5. NBA GMs are not idiots, they can identify good talent whether they shoot 8 or 15 times a game, and I think players understand that in the modern age being an inefficient scorer is not really going to help your draft status.

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 02:46 PM
No. The NBA (and NFL) needs to create a real farm system, pure and simple. The requirement for a high school basketball or football player to attend college, no matter for how long, in order to progress to the major leagues is an abomination. A farm system, in conjunction with an alternate path that does involve colleges, works very well for baseball -- I see no reason it shouldn't work just as well for basketball or football.

Until something like that happens (which will be never), the current college-based system is ripe for abuse.

Then we'll merely agree to disagree. The farm system that is put in place in European football is great for players who actually make it. For those who don't, it's a difficult path to make a successful living, especially outside of your industry of expertise (ie football).

gumbomoop
03-20-2013, 02:56 PM
The guy who's in the stickiest situation seems to be Harrow. He's already used his transfer year, sitting out 2011-12 after leaving NCSt. But if he transfers again, he loses another season, so would presumably have only one left, in 2014-15. I suppose he could do a Julius Mays, and stick around UK for 2013-14, then transfer to another DI school for a graduate program in 2014-15.

Given Wiltjer's slide even this season toward limited minutes, I'd guess he transfers, presumably not to the NBA, but who knows.

Edit: See that BD80 already made the point about Harrow. Sorry for the repeat.

JasonEvans
03-20-2013, 02:59 PM
Hood (redshirt junior with enough credits to graduate)
Polson (rumored to have enough credits to graduate early)
both of these players could play a graduate year at another program

Who is left:
Wiltjer and Harrow - stuck at the end of the bench
Poythress, Cauley-Stein, Goodwin - fighting for minutes

Hood was a top 50 recruit.
Wiltjer and Harrow were both ranked around the top 20 high school recruits.

I wanna know when kids are going to catch on. Cal doesn't turn kids into pros. He takes kids who are already pros and allows them to do whatever they want for a year while they wait for the NBA to come calling. Sometimes, it turns out the kids weren't as NBA ready as thought and that's when Cal either buries them on the bench or just pulls their scholarship and runs them off.

-Jason "its the worst kind of basketball factory around" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 03:02 PM
Hood was a top 50 recruit.
Wiltjer and Harrow were both ranked around the top 20 high school recruits.

I wanna know when kids are going to catch on. Cal doesn't turn kids into pros. He takes kids who are already pros and allows them to do whatever they want for a year while they wait for the NBA to come calling. Sometimes, it turns out the kids weren't as NBA ready as thought and that's when Cal either buries them on the bench or just pulls their scholarship and runs them off.

-Jason "its the worst kind of basketball factory around" Evans

Cal had two Final Four's vacated. He has had multiple sanctions thrown at him. He failed in the NBA and is clearly failing to provide kids with a resemblance of an education. And the kids are still coming in waves. If they haven't caught yet, they aren't going to. Sad...very sad.

Ichabod Drain
03-20-2013, 03:06 PM
Hood was a top 50 recruit.
Wiltjer and Harrow were both ranked around the top 20 high school recruits.

I wanna know when kids are going to catch on. Cal doesn't turn kids into pros. He takes kids who are already pros and allows them to do whatever they want for a year while they wait for the NBA to come calling. Sometimes, it turns out the kids weren't as NBA ready as thought and that's when Cal either buries them on the bench or just pulls their scholarship and runs them off.

-Jason "its the worst kind of basketball factory around" Evans

In fairness to Cal, which is somewhat ironic, except when he first came in and inherited players, I do not believe he has pulled a scholarship or ran anyone off yet. It is just heresay at this point that Harrow or Wiltjer are going to be run off.

Also Cal is bringing in NBA players every year so if a player turns out to be not as good as predicted it is hard not to bury them on the bench when next years crop of five stars comes in.

I don't like it one bit but it's the systems fault just as much as it is Cal's.

Billy Dat
03-20-2013, 03:08 PM
Come on guys, I am trying to enjoy that Robert Morris victory...

The next few years will be a big test of the Cal approach because his really good teams have featured non-freshmen leaders/important players. Even if a bunch of these current freshmen stay, there is no current "winning culture" among the existing roster. Theory dictates that overwhelming talent should trump such potential barriers to success.....I guess we'll see if that plays out. What can Goodwin, Poythres, and Cauley-Stein currently teach anyone about "The Kentucky Way"? Do we think these hot shot freshmen will listen to those guys - their opinion is going to be "Don't tell me anything, you guys sucked!"

At least that's what I hope happens.

Ichabod Drain
03-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Cal had two Final Four's vacated. He has had multiple sanctions thrown at him. He failed in the NBA and is clearly failing to provide kids with a resemblance of an education. And the kids are still coming in waves. If they haven't caught yet, they aren't going to. Sad...very sad.

There are kids who realize it. Our own Amile could of made the choice to go to UK last year (I think he's pretty satisfied with his decison) along with a few others. But Cal also sends a ridiculous number of kids to the NBA, which is the difficult thing for these kids to see past when evaluating all the other factors. Though it could easily be argued the kids he gets drafted would be drafted no matter where they attended college. (I use the term "attended college" loosely here)

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 03:23 PM
There are kids who realize it. Our own Amile could of made the choice to go to UK last year (I think he's pretty satisfied with his decison) along with a few others. But Cal also sends a ridiculous number of kids to the NBA, which is the difficult thing for these kids to see past when evaluating all the other factors. Though it could easily be argued the kids he gets drafted would be drafted no matter where they attended college. (I use the term "attended college" loosely here)

You are absolutely right. But, like your said, it's going to take more than 1-2 Amile Jeffersons to break the Calipari curse.

GGLC
03-20-2013, 03:28 PM
There are kids who realize it. Our own Amile could of made the choice to go to UK last year (I think he's pretty satisfied with his decison) along with a few others. But Cal also sends a ridiculous number of kids to the NBA, which is the difficult thing for these kids to see past when evaluating all the other factors. Though it could easily be argued the kids he gets drafted would be drafted no matter where they attended college. (I use the term "attended college" loosely here)

The kids he sends to the NBA are top 15 recruits anyway. Not that hard.

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 03:37 PM
The kids he sends to the NBA are top 15 recruits anyway. Not that hard.

No one is arguing that these kids aren't top talent or that Calipari doesn't advance their NBA stock much. We're arguing that a lot of top high schoolers don't realize this and they believe that Kentucky is the most surefire way to get to the NBA.

Mike Corey
03-20-2013, 03:37 PM
At this point what can stop the recruiting machine that is Calipari/Kentucky?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PFy3sH-Kc1I/T5oU_vnuNMI/AAAAAAAADzU/bxWgGjMHsuU/s1600/follow-the-money.jpg

GGLC
03-20-2013, 03:44 PM
No one is arguing that these kids aren't top talent or that Calipari doesn't advance their NBA stock much. We're arguing that a lot of top high schoolers don't realize this and they believe that Kentucky is the most surefire way to get to the NBA.

Why don't they realize it, though? It doesn't seem that hard to see that someone who gets NBA-ready players (i.e., top top tier prep prospects) is going to be successful in, y'know, getting those players drafted highly in the NBA. And conversely, it doesn't seem that hard to see that a top prep prospect will have an excellent chance of being drafted highly in the NBA almost regardless of where they go to school.

I'm not sure what the kids think that the Kentucky imprimatur brings specifically. Where's the value added, in their mind, other than the fact that they don't have to go to class? (This is assuming that Calipari does not outright pay them, of course, which would obviously answer all of my questions.)

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 03:48 PM
Why don't they realize it, though? It doesn't seem that hard to see that someone who gets NBA-ready players (i.e., top top tier prep prospects) is going to be successful in, y'know, getting those players drafted highly in the NBA. And conversely, it doesn't seem that hard to see that a top prep prospect will have an excellent chance of being drafted highly in the NBA almost regardless of where they go to school.

I'm not sure what the kids think that the Kentucky imprimatur brings specifically. Where's the value added, in their mind, other than the fact that they don't have to go to class? (This is assuming that Calipari does not outright pay them, of course, which would obviously answer all of my questions.)

I think this is the true debate (not the paying players, but why players still believe it). IMO, I think a lot of it has to do with going to an environment where your school, your coach, and your teammates all expect you to go to the NBA after one year. This is the mentality at UK. Also, every school has a so-called "family". When your "family" is better represented in the NBA than any other school, a lot of players put two-and-two together. Correlation doesn't mean causation, but a lot of recruits interpret it this way.

CDu
03-20-2013, 03:56 PM
Why don't they realize it, though? It doesn't seem that hard to see that someone who gets NBA-ready players (i.e., top top tier prep prospects) is going to be successful in, y'know, getting those players drafted highly in the NBA. And conversely, it doesn't seem that hard to see that a top prep prospect will have an excellent chance of being drafted highly in the NBA almost regardless of where they go to school.

Well, plenty of adults don't seem to realize it, so I'm not sure why you'd expect teenagers (many of whom aren't that well educated on top of being young) to realize it.


I'm not sure what the kids think that the Kentucky imprimatur brings specifically. Where's the value added, in their mind, other than the fact that they don't have to go to class? (This is assuming that Calipari does not outright pay them, of course, which would obviously answer all of my questions.)

I think the "Cal method" has a few angles:
- we're a one-and-done shop, so you can expect to play A LOT even as a freshman
- we're a one-and-done shop, so we don't expect you to need to take hard classes (since UK is a state school, I suspect that you don't have to declare a major until your junior year. So a kid can go for a year or two and take the easiest classes available and remain academically eligible.
- we're a one-and-done shop that has been successful in getting guys drafted to the pros. And not just the top-10 guys; Daniel Orton and Eric Bledsoe became first round picks, too.

All of that together is a nice sell to a kid who envisions himself taking the fast track to the NBA.

Did Calipari get lucky in landing Wall/Cousins and then Davis/Kidd-Gilchrist? Sure. But now that he's done so, he has gotten the ball rolling. And clearly even a flop of a season like this year hasn't hurt his cause.

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 03:56 PM
In fairness to Cal, which is somewhat ironic, except when he first came in and inherited players, I do not believe he has pulled a scholarship or ran anyone off yet. It is just heresay at this point that Harrow or Wiltjer are going to be run off.

Also Cal is bringing in NBA players every year so if a player turns out to be not as good as predicted it is hard not to bury them on the bench when next years crop of five stars comes in.

I don't like it one bit but it's the systems fault just as much as it is Cal's.

Calipari is a funhouse mirror. He distorts everything. There isn't a coach in America who won't recruit over kids if they don't live up to expectations. Calipari's system, however, has distorted expectations. Kids like Terrence Jones or Doron Lamb or Darius Miller weren't one and doners, but they also weren't caught in a huge wave of kids coming in (there was plenty of talent, but not at every position and they played key roles). Poythress and Goodwin and Harrow and Wiltjer aren't definitive ready-made pros, so they've failed to meet the ridiculous standard of one-and-done or one-and-gone, and they're faced with truly being buried in a wave of incoming talent and with a coach who's called out their talent and character.

To me, that's not the system. Calipari could live in a world with the rest of DI ball coaches, where they recruit a mix of kids to balance their classes. He's chosen to become an A-Ball affiliate of the NBA, where the best kids are through-put in a year, and the kids who wash out start thinking about selling Lady Kenmores.

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2013, 04:01 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PFy3sH-Kc1I/T5oU_vnuNMI/AAAAAAAADzU/bxWgGjMHsuU/s1600/follow-the-money.jpg

Hal Holbrook can stop him?

Ichabod Drain
03-20-2013, 04:05 PM
Calipari is a funhouse mirror. He distorts everything. There isn't a coach in America who won't recruit over kids if they don't live up to expectations. Calipari's system, however, has distorted expectations. Kids like Terrence Jones or Doron Lamb or Darius Miller weren't one and doners, but they also weren't caught in a huge wave of kids coming in (there was plenty of talent, but not at every position and they played key roles). Poythress and Goodwin and Harrow and Wiltjer aren't definitive ready-made pros, so they've failed to meet the ridiculous standard of one-and-done or one-and-gone, and they're faced with truly being buried in a wave of incoming talent and with a coach who's called out their talent and character.

To me, that's not the system. Calipari could live in a world with the rest of DI ball coaches, where they recruit a mix of kids to balance their classes. He's chosen to become an A-Ball affiliate of the NBA, where the best kids are through-put in a year, and the kids who wash out start thinking about selling Lady Kenmores.

Yes Calipari could live in the world of most other DI coaches but why should he? Up until this year he has had pretty great success with the system he runs. All arrows point to it being very successful again next year. Cal is a great recruiter so he plays to his strengths. He also is the coach at a university that may or may not value basketball performance over everything else. Unless the rules put in place by the NCAA and NBA force him to change I see no reason, outside of our own personal beliefs, that he should or would.

rifraf
03-20-2013, 04:09 PM
On top of all that, he recruits kids who think they're the best and have grown up surrounded by people TELLING them they're the best. These kids aren't going to look at Harrow and others and see "woah, Cal can't develop players" they're just going to see a kid who isn't as good at basketball as they are.

"You're the best and you're going to the NBA. I'm the best guy to get you there. We had a bad year, but those kids weren't the best. YOU are. Come play for me. Be the best, and let me help you make millions."

There isn't anything for these kids to "catch-on" to because they don't think it can happen to them.

tommy
03-20-2013, 04:12 PM
I know this is probably unfair, but I just can't help it. Anytime a kid commits to Kentucky these days, I can't help but think less of him. As Duke fans, we were all into Julius Randle, as a perfect example. When a kid who has opportunities at all kinds of schools -- not just Duke -- and instead chooses Kentucky, including its reality and its myth, it seems like he's not the kind of kid at least I thought he was. Who knows what the Duke staff thinks when a kid like Randle or Karl Towns picks Kentucky. But by making that selection, the kid is embracing the culture there. The one-and-done. Me first. All about getting to the league. My minutes. My touches. My numbers. My moving on. My bling. Jay-Z. Easy street. Sure, I'll talk the talk about the team, but it ain't about the team and it sure as hell ain't about education. It's all about me and what I want for me and how I can get mine as soon as possible so the world will be at my feet. That's the way a lot of these kids are thinking, I believe. And it just has to be pretty disappointing to folks -- like the Duke staff -- who are about a lot more than that, especially when they believed or were led to believe that the kid was about more than that too, which is why he was recruited by these other places in the first place.

Look, I don't begrudge kids the right to choose where they want to play. And I fully accept the fact that Duke isn't right for everyone, and sometimes we just get beaten out for recruits. Tom Izzo seems to be a great guy and a great coach. There is plenty to like about the situations and coaches at Georgetown and Syracuse and Indiana and Michigan and Florida and UNC and many other places. I have no problem when a recruit picks a place like that (or others) over Duke. But those places aren't selling what Calipari is, so when it's Kentucky that is the choice, it just says to me that this kid's head isn't in the right place where he would have succeeded at Duke anyway. He doesn't buy into the concept of being part of something bigger than himself, because in his mind, there isn't anything bigger than himself.

I know I'm gonna get killed by you guys for this one, but there it is.

GGLC
03-20-2013, 04:14 PM
I know this is probably unfair, but I just can't help it. Anytime a kid commits to Kentucky these days, I can't help but think less of him. As Duke fans, we were all into Julius Randle, as a perfect example. When a kid who has opportunities at all kinds of schools -- not just Duke -- and instead chooses Kentucky, including its reality and its myth, it seems like he's not the kind of kid at least I thought he was. Who knows what the Duke staff thinks when a kid like Randle or Karl Towns picks Kentucky. But by making that selection, the kid is embracing the culture there. The one-and-done. Me first. All about getting to the league. My minutes. My touches. My numbers. My moving on. My bling. Jay-Z. Easy street. Sure, I'll talk the talk about the team, but it ain't about the team and it sure as hell ain't about education. It's all about me and what I want for me and how I can get mine as soon as possible so the world will be at my feet. That's the way a lot of these kids are thinking, I believe. And it just has to be pretty disappointing to folks -- like the Duke staff -- who are about a lot more than that, especially when they believed or were led to believe that the kid was about more than that too, which is why he was recruited by these other places in the first place.

Look, I don't begrudge kids the right to choose where they want to play. And I fully accept the fact that Duke isn't right for everyone, and sometimes we just get beaten out for recruits. Tom Izzo seems to be a great guy and a great coach. There is plenty to like about the situations and coaches at Georgetown and Syracuse and Indiana and Michigan and Florida and UNC and many other places. I have no problem when a recruit picks a place like that (or others) over Duke. But those places aren't selling what Calipari is, so when it's Kentucky that is the choice, it just says to me that this kid's head isn't in the right place where he would have succeeded at Duke anyway. He doesn't buy into the concept of being part of something bigger than himself, because in his mind, there isn't anything bigger than himself.

I know I'm gonna get killed by you guys for this one, but there it is.

I completely agree with this.

gwlaw99
03-20-2013, 04:23 PM
I know these kids are great, but I wouldn't trade our starting four for theirs (not including center) next year except perhaps if they get Wiggins.

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 04:27 PM
Yes Calipari could live in the world of most other DI coaches but why should he? Up until this year he has had pretty great success with the system he runs. All arrows point to it being very successful again next year. Cal is a great recruiter so he plays to his strengths. He also is the coach at a university that may or may not value basketball performance over everything else. Unless the rules put in place by the NCAA and NBA force him to change I see no reason, outside of our own personal beliefs, that he should or would.

I didn't say he should. The premise I responded to was that the circumstance Wiltjer and Harrow find themselves in, was as much a result of the system as it was Calipari.

That said, just reinstate the 5-and-8 rule. This ridiculousness goes away to a large extent.

johnb
03-20-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm amazed that Kentucky has recruited so many star high school players over the past 5 years, but from the vantage point of most of college basketball, I'm not sure that Duke isn't viewed similarly. Our players stick around longer, and we have perhaps fewer top 7 players and more top 20 players, but in any given year, we have multiple McD's A-A's who play <10 minutes/game. As the old Virginia coach said about Taymon Domzalski: he can barely get off Duke's bench, but we'd have built a statue of him in Charlottesville. And while Kentucky has 20 former players in the NBA, we have 18 (which is, by comparison, the same number from ALL of the 21 schools in the Mountain West and Conference USA).

MaxAMillion
03-20-2013, 04:32 PM
I know this is probably unfair, but I just can't help it. Anytime a kid commits to Kentucky these days, I can't help but think less of him. As Duke fans, we were all into Julius Randle, as a perfect example. When a kid who has opportunities at all kinds of schools -- not just Duke -- and instead chooses Kentucky, including its reality and its myth, it seems like he's not the kind of kid at least I thought he was. Who knows what the Duke staff thinks when a kid like Randle or Karl Towns picks Kentucky. But by making that selection, the kid is embracing the culture there. The one-and-done. Me first. All about getting to the league. My minutes. My touches. My numbers. My moving on. My bling. Jay-Z. Easy street. Sure, I'll talk the talk about the team, but it ain't about the team and it sure as hell ain't about education. It's all about me and what I want for me and how I can get mine as soon as possible so the world will be at my feet. That's the way a lot of these kids are thinking, I believe. And it just has to be pretty disappointing to folks -- like the Duke staff -- who are about a lot more than that, especially when they believed or were led to believe that the kid was about more than that too, which is why he was recruited by these other places in the first place.

Look, I don't begrudge kids the right to choose where they want to play. And I fully accept the fact that Duke isn't right for everyone, and sometimes we just get beaten out for recruits. Tom Izzo seems to be a great guy and a great coach. There is plenty to like about the situations and coaches at Georgetown and Syracuse and Indiana and Michigan and Florida and UNC and many other places. I have no problem when a recruit picks a place like that (or others) over Duke. But those places aren't selling what Calipari is, so when it's Kentucky that is the choice, it just says to me that this kid's head isn't in the right place where he would have succeeded at Duke anyway. He doesn't buy into the concept of being part of something bigger than himself, because in his mind, there isn't anything bigger than himself.

I know I'm gonna get killed by you guys for this one, but there it is.

Why is it basketball players who always get their character questioned for wanting to be professionals first? Golf, Tennis, and baseball players can all focus on being professional right out of high school if they like and I never hear the statements about being selfish associated with them. Only when a fans beloved team gets rejected do the questions turn to the character of a high school player who values being a professional athlete more than a college student.

It may make you feel better to discount a recruit's ability to fit in at Duke if they want to go to UK, but K offered a scholarship to a guy like Randle for a reason. He obviously saw things in Randle both on and off the court that he thought would work well at Duke.

Ichabod Drain
03-20-2013, 04:38 PM
I didn't say he should. The premise I responded to was that the circumstance Wiltjer and Harrow find themselves in, was as much a result of the system as it was Calipari.

That said, just reinstate the 5-and-8 rule. This ridiculousness goes away to a large extent.

Understandable,

And I agree about the 5-8 rule. Cal would have a heart attack.

roywhite
03-20-2013, 04:39 PM
I'm amazed that Kentucky has recruited so many star high school players over the past 5 years, but from the vantage point of most of college basketball, I'm not sure that Duke isn't viewed similarly. Our players stick around longer, and we have perhaps fewer top 7 players and more top 20 players, but in any given year, we have multiple McD's A-A's who play <10 minutes/game. As the old Virginia coach said about Taymon Domzalski: he can barely get off Duke's bench, but we'd have built a statue of him in Charlottesville. And while Kentucky has 20 former players in the NBA, we have 18 (which is, by comparison, the same number from ALL of the 21 schools in the Mountain West and Conference USA).

Duke and Kentucky sometimes target the same players; in the class of 2013, for instance, both were after Jabari Parker and Randle. And both teams have a high number of former players now in the NBA.

Still, I don't think it's accurate to say that Duke is viewed similarly to Kentucky. There are substantial differences between the two schools in academics, and substantial differences between Calipari and Krzyzewski.

CharlestonDevil
03-20-2013, 04:43 PM
Let Calipari and Kentucky run the program the way they want. They will become a magnet for kids who expect short cuts in life, the ones who want all the glitz and glamor for a year before the NBA begs them to leave school early. The freshmen kids who skip class their entire second semester. The kids who believe all the hype and should never come to Duke in the first place.

Kentucky may hang a banner or two, sure. But that is not what they will be known for. Duke will go on being Duke, leading the way not only in a winning tradition but also doing it with class. Honestly, every kid that commits to Kentucky I think "Good, one less kid we should worry about."

**On a sidenote I would like to say that being one and done or simply going to UK doesn't make you a bad kid. But I think it is very obvious at this point that the typical Kentucky kid is much different than you typical Duke basketball player. I have tremendous respect for both Amile and Kyrie because they considered both programs equally and were not swayed by meaningless hype. In my opinion they took a higher road.

BD80
03-20-2013, 04:46 PM
Well, plenty of adults don't seem to realize it, so I'm not sure why you'd expect teenagers (many of whom aren't that well educated on top of being young) to realize it. ...

- we're a one-and-done shop that has been successful in getting guys drafted to the pros. And not just the top-10 guys; Daniel Orton and Eric Bledsoe became first round picks, too.

All of that together is a nice sell to a kid who envisions himself taking the fast track to the NBA. ...

10 is a random number in this context. Orton and Bledsoe were highly ranked recruits that had solid NBA prospects in high school.


... Poythress and Goodwin and Harrow and Wiltjer aren't definitive ready-made pros, so they've failed to meet the ridiculous standard of one-and-done or one-and-gone, and they're faced with truly being buried in a wave of incoming talent and with a coach who's called out their talent and character. ...

What do you think they were told by calipari? They had their own ridiculous expectations, and cal fed those expectations.

I believe I've heard cal spew some crap about caring about his players. How can that be reconciled with brooming a player cal recruited out of the program? The kid would be better off losing a year to be with a coach that gives a crap?

Billy Dat
03-20-2013, 04:55 PM
But by making that selection, the kid is embracing the culture there. The one-and-done. Me first. All about getting to the league. My minutes. My touches. My numbers. My moving on. My bling. Jay-Z. Easy street. Sure, I'll talk the talk about the team, but it ain't about the team and it sure as hell ain't about education. It's all about me and what I want for me and how I can get mine as soon as possible so the world will be at my feet. That's the way a lot of these kids are thinking, I believe. And it just has to be pretty disappointing to folks -- like the Duke staff -- who are about a lot more than that, especially when they believed or were led to believe that the kid was about more than that too, which is why he was recruited by these other places in the first place.

I don't doubt that some of this may be true, but it might also be that for current prep stars, Kentucky is the gold standard and that a accepting a scholarship to UK is akin to letting the world know that you are one of the chosen ones. "I was good enough for Calipari to offer me a scholarship". It's the equivalent of the 1950s private school kid pining for that Ivy League acceptance letter.

oldnavy
03-20-2013, 05:04 PM
Calaparia is in the perfect storm. UK couldn't care less about anything but winning basketball games. He has found a home for life or until the rules change.

Turtleboy
03-20-2013, 05:06 PM
How much of a colossal @^&@^!@ is Calipari that his kids are this aware he may cut them loose and pull their scholarship? Has Duke ever done this? Coach P has.

rsvman
03-20-2013, 05:10 PM
I can't dislike a kid just because he chose to go play for Calipari at Kentucky. It kind of baffles me why Randle would make that choice TODAY, the day after the program got booted from the NIT by an 8-seed in the first round, but whatevs, I guess. Maybe the loss makes him think "they really NEED me." Maybe he thinks his recruitment is what it takes to right the Kentucky ship.

It's completely irrelevant to us unless it makes Wiggins decide to go to Carolina, or unless it chances that we face off against Kentucky in the NCAA Tournament next year.

dw0827
03-20-2013, 05:11 PM
I completely agree with this.

Me too. 100%.

duke74
03-20-2013, 05:22 PM
I don't doubt that some of this may be true, but it might also be that for current prep stars, Kentucky is the gold standard and that a accepting a scholarship to UK is akin to letting the world know that you are one of the chosen ones. "I was good enough for Calipari to offer me a scholarship". It's the equivalent of the 1950s private school kid pining for that Ivy League acceptance letter.

Sounds a lot like Bernie Madoff's sales pitch to prospective investors...or rather his lack of sales pitch as people fell over themselves to give funds to the "master" to manage....exclusivity is a strong draw.

brevity
03-20-2013, 05:32 PM
I wanna know when kids are going to catch on. Cal doesn't turn kids into pros. He takes kids who are already pros and allows them to do whatever they want for a year while they wait for the NBA to come calling. Sometimes, it turns out the kids weren't as NBA ready as thought and that's when Cal either buries them on the bench or just pulls their scholarship and runs them off.

To add one wrinkle: he does it within the context of the University of Kentucky basketball program. All that history, all that prestige, all that coverage.

I think Jason's on to something. There's probably a good discussion to be had about how some of Cal's past talent is not burning up the league as expected. John Wall is a non-entity in the Next Great Point Guard sweepstakes (which could be a Wizards thing, or a Kyrie Irving thing). Demarcus Cousins is as alienating as ever -- maybe he'd be different if he'd spent that one year of college in better hands? Eric Bledsoe is doing well almost despite his Kentucky experience, though in a backup role. I don't think any of these arguments are slam dunks, but they are probably worth examining.

I think John Calipari has abused the one-and-done rule (which was susceptible to abuse anyway) by transforming that One Year of College to One Year of Study Hall. And maybe it's no longer working. Maybe it never did; 2012 could be the great anomaly.

rsvman
03-20-2013, 05:34 PM
.....maybe it's no longer working. Maybe it never did; 2012 could be the great anomaly.

We live in hope.

OldPhiKap
03-20-2013, 05:55 PM
^ There's a reason folks remember the Fab Five (who won nothing) and last year's KY team. It is rare that it works.

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 06:07 PM
And maybe it's no longer working. Maybe it never did; 2012 could be the great anomaly.

I think it's working just as folks thought it would. When the incoming high school class falters, isn't excellent, or Calipari misses (God forbid) on a target, UK will dip. There's also risk that they won't jell. When the incoming class is full of elite NBA prospects (and next year's is . . . ), look out.

We can hope 2012 was the anomaly. Unfortunately, I have my doubts.

sporthenry
03-20-2013, 06:24 PM
I still think next year could be fun for all if Harrow and the 3 other freshmen end up staying. Watching them try to get along will be priceless. And it is only a matter of time until Cal pushes out guys like Harrow or even a Poythress/Goodwin type and they speak negatively of him.

Now it might not kill him completely b/c these top recruits couldn't fathom themselves as not being 1 and done but it still can't help with recruiting.

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 06:26 PM
Rumors circulating that Wiltjer is transferring. Shocker.

FerryFor50
03-20-2013, 06:36 PM
Rumors circulating that Wiltjer is transferring. Shocker.

Come to Duke! :)

OldPhiKap
03-20-2013, 06:36 PM
Rumors circulating that Wiltjer is transferring. Shocker.

Transferring, or being reassigned? ("Made redundant," as our British friends would say)

FerryFor50
03-20-2013, 06:38 PM
To add one wrinkle: he does it within the context of the University of Kentucky basketball program. All that history, all that prestige, all that coverage.

I think Jason's on to something. There's probably a good discussion to be had about how some of Cal's past talent is not burning up the league as expected. John Wall is a non-entity in the Next Great Point Guard sweepstakes (which could be a Wizards thing, or a Kyrie Irving thing). Demarcus Cousins is as alienating as ever -- maybe he'd be different if he'd spent that one year of college in better hands? Eric Bledsoe is doing well almost despite his Kentucky experience, though in a backup role. I don't think any of these arguments are slam dunks, but they are probably worth examining.

I think John Calipari has abused the one-and-done rule (which was susceptible to abuse anyway) by transforming that One Year of College to One Year of Study Hall. And maybe it's no longer working. Maybe it never did; 2012 could be the great anomaly.

Wall has been scorching hot the past month. Likely because it's a contract year.

Expect him to be back to inconsistent after he gets overpaid.

tommy
03-20-2013, 06:49 PM
Rumors circulating that Wiltjer is transferring. Shocker.

UK boards speculating that it'll be to Gonzaga. He's from Oregon, so he'd be a lot closer to home.

Bad news if he transfers: more room on the roster for new high school studs.

Good news: Wiltjer would be just the kind of veteran, team-oriented, glue guy Kentucky may need for a championship squad. And they wouldn't have him.

Starter
03-20-2013, 06:52 PM
I think it's working just as folks thought it would. When the incoming high school class falters, isn't excellent, or Calipari misses (God forbid) on a target, UK will dip. There's also risk that they won't jell. When the incoming class is full of elite NBA prospects (and next year's is . . . ), look out.

We can hope 2012 was the anomaly. Unfortunately, I have my doubts.

I think this is right. If Calipari had hit on Shabazz, and if Noel had stayed healthy, they're probably a Final Four team. I feel like next year's team is a pretty solid bet.

g-money
03-20-2013, 07:20 PM
Is there a point at which the school President steps in to stop the NBA factory at UK? I mean, when a coach is routinely rescinding scholarships simply to make room for the next wave, isn't that absurdly far away from the core mission of a University?

Any way you slice it, the NBA one-and-done rule really is the pits.

flyingdutchdevil
03-20-2013, 07:22 PM
Is there a point at which the school President steps in to stop the NBA factory at UK? I mean, when a coach is routinely rescinding scholarships simply to make room for the next wave, isn't that absurdly far away from the core mission of a University?

Any way you slice it, the NBA one-and-done rule really is the pits.

Wait, Kentucky is a university? All this time I thought it was a one-year destination for athletes to play basketball and look at Ashley Judd...

Duvall
03-20-2013, 07:40 PM
Is there a point at which the school President steps in to stop the NBA factory at UK?

Shortly before the University of Kentucky gets a new president. The big donors aren't going to lose sleep over Kyle Wiltjer finishing his career at Gonzaga.

BD80
03-20-2013, 07:50 PM
Rumors circulating that Wiltjer is transferring. Shocker.


UK boards speculating that it'll be to Gonzaga. He's from Oregon, so he'd be a lot closer to home.

Bad news if he transfers: more room on the roster for new high school studs.

Good news: Wiltjer would be just the kind of veteran, team-oriented, glue guy Kentucky may need for a championship squad. And they wouldn't have him.

Wasn't there a stink that cal stole Wiltjer from another NW school? Not the Terrence Jones affair, where cal turned him AFTER the press conference.

BTW TJones is more evidence of cal's ability to improve his players, TJones was a top-10 recruit out of high school. stayed TWO years at Ky, although a first round pick, #18, he is anchored to the bench in Houston (when not being bounced to the NBDL), playing only 8 mpg in 11 games total.

As to Wiltjer, it is not suprising that cal chose to cut him lose (by telling Wiltjer he would not get the PT he desires). He does seem like a really good kid. That leaves Cauley-Stein 7'0," Poythress 6'7," as sophmores, and No. 1 PF 6'9" Julius Randle, No. 1 center Dakari Johnson, No. 3 small forward James Young, No. 9 power forward Marcus Lee and three-star power forward Derek Willis in the Wildcats' 2013 class. Randle and Young are top-10 overall recruits, while Johnson and Lee are in the top 20.

BD80
03-20-2013, 07:51 PM
I think this is right. If Calipari had hit on Shabazz, and if Noel had stayed healthy, they're probably a Final Four team. I feel like next year's team is a pretty solid bet.

Still no pg

roywhite
03-20-2013, 07:52 PM
I think this is right. If Calipari had hit on Shabazz, and if Noel had stayed healthy, they're probably a Final Four team. I feel like next year's team is a pretty solid bet.

Really? No doubt Noel's loss hurts; he was a true shot blocker and force on defense. But adding Shabazz to a group that already had issues with sharing the ball?

Seems to me PG was the main hole in the 2012-13 KY roster, and it's not a sure thing that gets fixed next year.

ncexnyc
03-20-2013, 08:22 PM
Way too much wishful thinking taking place on this thread. Cal's luster won't be deminished any time soon. These kids believe they're that good and that they'd be in the NBA if they weren't forced to go to college for a year. They're bigtime talents with the ego to match. If they are required to spend a year in college then why not KY? The program is built to exploit the current situation.

Some have called for the NBA to start their own farm system. That's funny. Why should they invest a dime in such a program when they have some sucker (NCAA and it's members) footing the bill for them already. The NCAA has the power to stop all this nonsense by penalizing schools who don't meet graduation requirements, but until they do so, some programs will continue to be puppy mills.

Finally let's not have a double standard here on this board. If we can point out the fact that players such as McRoberts and Randolph are in the NBA despite their lack of notable production, then let's not try and make a case against Cal for his player not exactly tearing up the NBA. A paycheck is a paycheck and most of his kids are getting paid quite well.

lotusland
03-20-2013, 08:27 PM
Is there a point at which the school President steps in to stop the NBA factory at UK? I mean, when a coach is routinely rescinding scholarships simply to make room for the next wave, isn't that absurdly far away from the core mission of a University?

Any way you slice it, the NBA one-and-done rule really is the pits.

Only if he wants to be the ex-president.

JNort
03-20-2013, 08:36 PM
FWIW, here is how the various draft sites project the current Kentucky freshmen:

Noel - NBDraft.Net #4, Draftexpress #1, ESPN #2
Cauley-Stein - NBDraft.Net #9, Draftexpress #10 (in 2014), ESPN #16
Goodwin - NBDraft.Net #28, Draftexpress #18, ESPN #20
Poythress - NBDraft.Net #20 (in 2014), Draftexpress #15, ESPN #13

Seems likely that all 4 would see themselves as first round locks if they come out this year. Other than Goodwin, the other guys all are projected by some to be lottery picks. I am not sure who Calipari was talking about as uncoachable and the such in his horrible newser after the game, but these kids know how he feels about them. I bet at least a couple of them head to the NBA.

-Jason "all these guys (except Noel) need to worry about minutes next year with the ridiculous freshman class coming in at Kentucky" Evans

Goodwin, Poythress, and Caulie all said they will return next year. Although I doubt that holds

Sandman
03-20-2013, 08:59 PM
If you step back and look at this objectively, why wouldn't an outstanding 18-20 year old kid whose overwhelming life's ambition is to "get to the NBA" want to go to Kentucky? The Kentucky facilities where basketball players live and practice have a very high "wow factor", and Kentucky players are treated like media celebrities in Kentucky as long as they produce; plus you don't have to really be bothered by those pesky things called "academic classes" that you have vaguely heard of. Why not go spend your one, maybe two, years where you are pampered, adored, and well-trained (yes! Cal and his staff are GOOD at their job!) for your true purpose -- to play in the NBA.

As ethically slimy as I think Cal is, Kentucky is probably operating within the NCAA boundaries of the existing rules. Which means those rules are a bunch of c**p and need to be changed significantly. But they won't because the NCAA is not going to shoot their golden goose.

AAA1980
03-20-2013, 09:11 PM
Really? No doubt Noel's loss hurts; he was a true shot blocker and force on defense. But adding Shabazz to a group that already had issues with sharing the ball?

Seems to me PG was the main hole in the 2012-13 KY roster, and it's not a sure thing that gets fixed next year.

Hes got the #1 pg coming in next year in Andrew Harrison whos 6'5 and a beast and much better then Harrow..

The team just wasnt very talented this year..2012 as a whole was a weak recruiting class and since UK is a freshmen every year the team will be as good as the class is overall..

Next years recruting class is loaded so UK will be as well..and as much as i hate to say it if they get Wiggins thats as talented a team as ive ever seen

sporthenry
03-20-2013, 09:21 PM
Hes got the #1 pg coming in next year in Andrew Harrison whos 6'5 and a beast and much better then Harrow..

The team just wasnt very talented this year..2012 as a whole was a weak recruiting class and since UK is a freshmen every year the team will be as good as the class is overall..

Next years recruting class is loaded so UK will be as well..and as much as i hate to say it if they get Wiggins thats as talented a team as ive ever seen

I haven't seen much of Harrison but from what I've read, he seems more like a combo guard. They really need a facilitator more but I guess we will see. Personally, I'd love for Wiggins to go to UK. They already have too many guys and if he goes to UK that means he isn't at FSU and it takes another 5 star recruit off someone else's court thus making Duke better. Not to mention, the issues they'll have when these guys who were always told they were the best have to sit.

MarkD83
03-20-2013, 09:32 PM
Throughout this thread there appears to be an unwritten fear that with the accumulation of talent that UK gets that they could win the NCAA championship every year. However, the players that go to UK and Calipari seem to not be focused on winning championships.

Other coaches try to recruit to fill team needs related to winning championships. Calipari just seems to want to get as much talent as possible, and get them to the NBA as soon as possible. There are many other factors besides raw talent that are needed to win championships.

I still contend last years UK NCAA champion was a result of the group of players that stayed because of the NBA lock-out rather than just the freshman that were on the team. The veterans knew what it took to get into the tournament and to survive and advance in the tournament. No matter how talented a group of freshman are they do not know what to expect in the college game or in the tournament.

AAA1980
03-20-2013, 09:35 PM
I haven't seen much of Harrison but from what I've read, he seems more like a combo guard. They really need a facilitator more but I guess we will see. Personally, I'd love for Wiggins to go to UK. They already have too many guys and if he goes to UK that means he isn't at FSU and it takes another 5 star recruit off someone else's court thus making Duke better. Not to mention, the issues they'll have when these guys who were always told they were the best have to sit.

I do not wish they get Wiggins at all..kid is THAT good and playing with all that talent where you cant double him would be close t ounfair having college kids trying to guard him

bob blue devil
03-20-2013, 09:37 PM
Way too much wishful thinking taking place on this thread....

strongly agree with this. without noel, this year's team didn't have a single espn top 10 recruit. it was vastly overrated to start the season because the voters apparently got caught up in the story of kentucky freshman success after the championship and didn't pay that close attention to the actual recruits coming in.

next year they have a minimum of 4 top 10, possibly 5 or 6 (and they have #11). they should easily be a top 5 team.

the only elite programs that have avoided down years in recent history are duke and kansas (depending on defn, of course). i don't think one bad year invalidates the kentucky model at all.

and the nba isn't going to change - and i doubt it's about not having people make draft mistakes. the ncaa is an opportunity for players to brand themselves against lesser competition. players reps carry into the nba and make the product more marketable. not to mention they come with a natural fan base - half of my nba interest is in rooting for former blue devils.

the ncaa doesn't have a ton of options. "making" kids stay for 2 years is absurd. "not only are we going to make billions off of you in exchange for an 'education', but then we're going to force you to stay potentially against your will." perhaps the ncaa could force a dispersion of one and doners by penalizing schools with a lot of kids not meeting whatever academic requirements, but, again, why would they? kentucky is good for business. love 'em or hate 'em, they are theater. i tuned in to root for robert morris yesterday...

vick
03-20-2013, 09:38 PM
No matter how talented a group of freshman are they do not know what to expect in the college game or in the tournament.

I don't quite get this. The Fab Five actually did exist, regardless of what the NCAA record book says. They got pretty darn far in the tournament, in an era where early entry was more rare. With Wiggins, this UK group will likely be more talented (obviously it's impossible to tell for sure).

AAA1980
03-20-2013, 09:42 PM
strongly agree with this. without noel, this year's team didn't have a single espn top 10 recruit. it was vastly overrated to start the season because the voters apparently got caught up in the story of kentucky freshman success after the championship and didn't pay that close attention to the actual recruits coming in.

next year they have a minimum of 4 top 10, possibly 5 or 6 (and they have #11). they should easily be a top 5 team.

the only elite programs that have avoided down years in recent history are duke and kansas (depending on defn, of course). i don't think one bad year invalidates the kentucky model at all.

and the nba isn't going to change - and i doubt it's about not having people make draft mistakes. the ncaa is an opportunity for players to brand themselves against lesser competition. players reps carry into the nba and make the product more marketable. not to mention they come with a natural fan base - half of my nba interest is in rooting for former blue devils.

the ncaa doesn't have a ton of options. "making" kids stay for 2 years is absurd. "not only are we going to make billions off of you in exchange for an 'education', but then we're going to force you to stay potentially against your will." perhaps the ncaa could force a dispersion of one and doners by penalizing schools with a lot of kids not meeting whatever academic requirements, but, again, why would they? kentucky is good for business. love 'em or hate 'em, they are theater. i tuned in to root for robert morris yesterday...

I agree the team sans Noel was not that good at all especially compared to past teams..the class overall was weak add in he got guys mostly in the teens and missed on Shabazz and Bennett in the top 5 and you have yourself a bad season..

The talent coming in next year is light years ahead of what this years team was

bob blue devil
03-20-2013, 09:46 PM
I don't quite get this. The Fab Five actually did exist, regardless of what the NCAA record book says. They got pretty darn far in the tournament, in an era where early entry was more rare. With Wiggins, this UK group will likely be more talented (obviously it's impossible to tell for sure).

yes.
kentucky since cal took over:
'10 - elite 8
'11 - final 4
'12 - champ
'13 - missed

remind me, who has done better?

ice-9
03-20-2013, 09:51 PM
yes.
kentucky since cal took over:
'10 - elite 8
'11 - final 4
'12 - champ
'13 - missed

remind me, who has done better?

'14 - Round of 64? One can only dream...

johnb
03-20-2013, 09:55 PM
What is the deal with all this Kentucky envy? Cal does what what many coaches do, but he does it well. How do we know how much his players study? How do we know they don't care about championships? Why slam these 18 year olds for choosing to compete for PT amidst intense competition and for trying to make the NBA?

I know Cal has historically been a bit of a cheat, but I doubt he's now breaking rules. If he is, he'll presumably get caught and potentially lose his job/income/status. Why does he need to cut significant corners when he knows everyone is looking to nail him? And why would he when kids line up to play for him? At least a few ofhbis recent stars have been guys who we recruited and are presumably good guys. Can't we move back to another topic, like Duke basketball?

NashvilleDevil
03-20-2013, 09:57 PM
Has Kentucky been preseason top 2 every year since Cal started? I agree with the posters that the revolving door of top recruits will not end at UK until Cal goes back to the NBA. That doesn't translate to championships but if they get the right mix like they had last year than they will be tough to beat.

crimsonandblue
03-20-2013, 10:10 PM
Wasn't there a stink that cal stole Wiltjer from another NW school? Not the Terrence Jones affair, where cal turned him AFTER the press conference.

BTW TJones is more evidence of cal's ability to improve his players, TJones was a top-10 recruit out of high school. stayed TWO years at Ky, although a first round pick, #18, he is anchored to the bench in Houston (when not being bounced to the NBDL), playing only 8 mpg in 11 games total.

As to Wiltjer, it is not suprising that cal chose to cut him lose (by telling Wiltjer he would not get the PT he desires). He does seem like a really good kid. That leaves Cauley-Stein 7'0," Poythress 6'7," as sophmores, and No. 1 PF 6'9" Julius Randle, No. 1 center Dakari Johnson, No. 3 small forward James Young, No. 9 power forward Marcus Lee and three-star power forward Derek Willis in the Wildcats' 2013 class. Randle and Young are top-10 overall recruits, while Johnson and Lee are in the top 20.

You're missing the Harrison twins; Andrew and Aaron the 6'5" #1 PG and #1 SG respectively and overall #2 and 4 in the class.

Henderson
03-20-2013, 10:12 PM
One point then a question:

Point: Cal is using the one-and-done opportunity like Dean did with the lack of a shot clock in the late 70's. At some point, the use becomes so extreme as to draw undue attention leading to a rule change. It's complicated here in that the minimum eligibility requirement comes from the NBA, not the NCAA. But still. I don't think he can keep telling kids for long, "You won't have to study or go to class much. Just come here and play ball for 6 months, and I'll get you into the NBA and make your family (and handlers and posse) rich." Coaches have done that for years, but any extreme like Cal has going gets noticed. Cal may bring down his own system just by way of excess.

Question: What are the academic eligibility requirements for freshmen if they leave after one season? How long do they have to keep up the appearances of being a student, assuming they only need to remain eligible until early April of their freshman years? If the school has a semester system, that presumably means something like D's in the first semester, then they can stop going to class entirely? Tell me kids with their eyes exclusively on the NBA don't think about that. But really, what's the rule? If you are a HS senior and you think you are NBA quality after one year, what do you think you have to do academically? Tell me Cal and his staff aren't talking to them about that. If the kid isn't asking the question, you can bet mom and the handlers are.

FerryFor50
03-20-2013, 10:12 PM
What is the deal with all this Kentucky envy? Cal does what what many coaches do, but he does it well. How do we know how much his players study? How do we know they don't care about championships? Why slam these 18 year olds for choosing to compete for PT amidst intense competition and for trying to make the NBA?

I know Cal has historically been a bit of a cheat, but I doubt he's now breaking rules. If he is, he'll presumably get caught and potentially lose his job/income/status. Why does he need to cut significant corners when he knows everyone is looking to nail him? And why would he when kids line up to play for him? At least a few ofhbis recent stars have been guys who we recruited and are presumably good guys. Can't we move back to another topic, like Duke basketball?

It's not envy. Envy would imply that we wished Coach K would stock his team with one and done me-first type players and thumb his nose at what little is left of the integrity of college athletics.

The problem is on several levels.

- it makes a mockery of the system, which was kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy when the NBA imposed the age limit
- it's a disingenuous recruiting plan performed by one of the most disingenuous coaches in college basketball
- Calipari has been involved in two different NCAA violation scandals at two different schools and is now finally at a school where he doesn't *have* to skirt the rules because of the drawing power/tradition of Kentucky
- it rewards players who don't want to work hard to get to the NBA, but instead want guaranteed playing time because there's no one left on the team due to one and done or being run off
- running players off based on their talent level (which is really why they are being run off) is shady at best and sets a bad precedent

No one thinks that kids shouldn't be able to go pro in their sports when they want to. I think the problem is with this stockpiling and how fishy it seems. And then the kids are gone before the NCAA can come sniffing around.

Kedsy
03-20-2013, 11:13 PM
strongly agree with this. without noel, this year's team didn't have a single espn top 10 recruit. it was vastly overrated to start the season because the voters apparently got caught up in the story of kentucky freshman success after the championship and didn't pay that close attention to the actual recruits coming in.

While I agree there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here, I'm not sure ESPN is the best measure of recruiting ranking. Using the RSCI (an aggregate of all the top ranking systems), this year's UK team has two top ten recruits besides Noel -- Poythress was #8 and Goodwin was #10. The difference is going into the season Calipari only had one guy in his rotation who had ever played a minute at Kentucky before, and that was sophomore Wiltjer who didn't play all that much his freshman year. This UK was historically young and that, combined with the team's best player out for the season, is what spelled doom for Kentucky.

Next year's UK team will have even more freshman talent, but more importantly at least one or two of the current players will stay to anchor the team as sophomore "veterans."

BD80
03-20-2013, 11:17 PM
You're missing the Harrison twins; Andrew and Aaron the 6'5" #1 PG and #1 SG respectively and overall #2 and 4 in the class.

Just illustrating why cal is cutting Wiltjer lose. Although 6'10" he is more of a "stretch" 4, which overlaps a good portion of next year's roster.

ChicagoCrazy84
03-20-2013, 11:36 PM
The one thing that makes me feel better about all of this is every other team out there will be gunning for UK instead of us :) Plenty of great programs with good returning talent will want to beat them just as much as we do.

Lastly, I want to wish the best of luck to Kyle Wiltjer, Jared Polson, Jon Hood, and Ryan Harrow and any others that will not be a part of the c#%p that Calimari has built over there. You kids who are actually striving to be true "student athletes" deserve better and I hope they get it.

bob blue devil
03-21-2013, 12:00 AM
While I agree there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here, I'm not sure ESPN is the best measure of recruiting ranking. Using the RSCI (an aggregate of all the top ranking systems), this year's UK team has two top ten recruits besides Noel -- Poythress was #8 and Goodwin was #10. The difference is going into the season Calipari only had one guy in his rotation who had ever played a minute at Kentucky before, and that was sophomore Wiltjer who didn't play all that much his freshman year. This UK was historically young and that, combined with the team's best player out for the season, is what spelled doom for Kentucky.

Next year's UK team will have even more freshman talent, but more importantly at least one or two of the current players will stay to anchor the team as sophomore "veterans."

agree to disagree.
1st r.e. rsci vs. espn - well, rsci equal weights a bunch of services. many are under-resourced, not as good, etc., etc. - i mean, that's a lot of kids to keep track of for not a lot of money! why rely on the mean when you probably know which service is doing a better job evaluating the field? i'd guess dave talep + espn's resources do better than the mean (perhaps I'm wrong). regardless of whether you think poythress is 8 or goodwin is 10, there is simply no comparison b/w last year's class and this year's class (nor the combined collection 2 years ago).
2nd i think the incoming class for kentucky is more important than the presence of a couple of sophomores (although there is little way to objectively debate this one). i think of it this way - if they didn't have the freshman coming in, what should they be ranked vs. if they didn't have the sophomores what should they be ranked. my answer is the team without the sophomores would get the higher ranking. sure, experience makes a player better, but i don't buy the argument that 60 games of ncaa experience is a mandatory ingredient for success vs. 30 games, particularly given how much basketball these kids play outside of college.

Kedsy
03-21-2013, 12:38 AM
agree to disagree.
1st r.e. rsci vs. espn - well, rsci equal weights a bunch of services. many are under-resourced, not as good, etc., etc. - i mean, that's a lot of kids to keep track of for not a lot of money! why rely on the mean when you probably know which service is doing a better job evaluating the field? i'd guess dave talep + espn's resources do better than the mean (perhaps I'm wrong). regardless of whether you think poythress is 8 or goodwin is 10, there is simply no comparison b/w last year's class and this year's class (nor the combined collection 2 years ago).
2nd i think the incoming class for kentucky is more important than the presence of a couple of sophomores (although there is little way to objectively debate this one). i think of it this way - if they didn't have the freshman coming in, what should they be ranked vs. if they didn't have the sophomores what should they be ranked. my answer is the team without the sophomores would get the higher ranking. sure, experience makes a player better, but i don't buy the argument that 60 games of ncaa experience is a mandatory ingredient for success vs. 30 games, particularly given how much basketball these kids play outside of college.

That's a straw man argument, nobody's suggesting the experienced players would be better than the freshmen. You need both. Sure, the main reason the 2012 Kentucky team was so awesome was the freshmen, especially Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist, but if they didn't have someone around who'd been there, i.e., Lamb, Jones and Miller, then as talented as those freshmen were I don't think they would have won the title.

Even the Fab Five Michigan team had five non-freshmen who played 9+ mpg (three non-freshman who played 14+ mpg), including an upperclassman who would be taken in the NBA draft the next season (Eric Riley). Experience matters in college hoops.

As far as comparing classes, I never said the current crop would compare to next year's. However, you definitely could compare this year's crop with the year before -- this year's team has the #1, #8, #10, and #38 in the RSCI, and last year had #1, #3, #7, and #19. Especially considering that #38 Cauley-Stein is a better pro prospect than #19 Wiltjer, that looks pretty close to me. The difference really is that #1 Davis is better than #1 Noel and #3 Kidd-Gilchrist is way better than #8 Poythress, so last year's group is better IMO, but I don't think it's accurate to say there's "no comparison."

bob blue devil
03-21-2013, 07:06 AM
That's a straw man argument, nobody's suggesting the experienced players would be better than the freshmen. You need both. Sure, the main reason the 2012 Kentucky team was so awesome was the freshmen, especially Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist, but if they didn't have someone around who'd been there, i.e., Lamb, Jones and Miller, then as talented as those freshmen were I don't think they would have won the title.


straw man?


Next year's UK team will have even more freshman talent, but more importantly at least one or two of the current players will stay to anchor the team as sophomore "veterans."



2nd i think the incoming class for kentucky is more important than the presence of a couple of sophomores (although there is little way to objectively debate this one). i think of it this way - if they didn't have the freshman coming in, what should they be ranked vs. if they didn't have the sophomores what should they be ranked.

i dunno; how else should i interpret "more important"? i'm guessing i took you too literally? it's not like having a couple of solid returning sophomores is harder to come by than a historic freshman class, so by that standard i still like my version of "more important".





As far as comparing classes, I never said the current crop would compare to next year's.


hmmm... yes; you are right. i mistook your comment as a comparison of this year's team vs. next year's team when it sounds like you were comparing them instead to the national title team.
i think we are in agreement; the national title team benefited not just from a good freshman class, but also from combining that with a handful of strong returning players.



did you have any counterpoint on my anti-rsci view? i ask because i haven't heard someone give the rsci a good defense yet.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-21-2013, 07:34 AM
Hopefully Wiggins surprises everyone and ends up at UNC, making all this Wiggins/KY talk moot.

bob blue devil
03-21-2013, 07:48 AM
p.s. i disagree with the romantic concept that you need upperclassman to win.


You need both. Sure, the main reason the 2012 Kentucky team was so awesome was the freshmen, especially Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist, but if they didn't have someone around who'd been there, i.e., Lamb, Jones and Miller, then as talented as those freshmen were I don't think they would have won the title.

sure, from a practical sense of fielding a team, you probably need some upperclassman. however, if you had a team where the top 12 recruits came and left every year, i believe they would have an excellent shot at winning most years and would be the favorite to win as often as any other team. note, excellent shot is probably somewhere ~10-20% chance (which is right where duke is for the past 25 years - that's truly elite).

lotusland
03-21-2013, 08:34 AM
I haven't seen much of Harrison but from what I've read, he seems more like a combo guard. They really need a facilitator more but I guess we will see. Personally, I'd love for Wiggins to go to UK. They already have too many guys and if he goes to UK that means he isn't at FSU and it takes another 5 star recruit off someone else's court thus making Duke better. Not to mention, the issues they'll have when these guys who were always they were the best have to sit.

the acc needs to improve over all to get back to being the top conference. Duke gets their share of top recruits so I wouldn't mind Wiggins spending a year in Tallahassee. As much as I enjoy mediocrity jn chapel hill we need the heels to be a top 10 program also.

duke09hms
03-21-2013, 08:59 AM
the acc needs to improve over all to get back to being the top conference. Duke gets their share of top recruits so I wouldn't mind Wiggins spending a year in Tallahassee. As much as I enjoy mediocrity jn chapel hill we need the heels to be a top 10 program also.

I never understand the above sentiment about UNC. But then again, not everyone went to Duke between 2006-2009 and experienced the Hansbrough domination and Danny Green dunkfest firsthand year after year. I love mediocre UNC basketball, and even when they are so-so, they can be a threat to us. I'd MUCH rather Wiggins go to FSU, then UK, then last UNC. God anywhere but UNC please.

NSDukeFan
03-21-2013, 10:05 AM
That's a straw man argument, nobody's suggesting the experienced players would be better than the freshmen. You need both. Sure, the main reason the 2012 Kentucky team was so awesome was the freshmen, especially Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist, but if they didn't have someone around who'd been there, i.e., Lamb, Jones and Miller, then as talented as those freshmen were I don't think they would have won the title.

Even the Fab Five Michigan team had five non-freshmen who played 9+ mpg (three non-freshman who played 14+ mpg), including an upperclassman who would be taken in the NBA draft the next season (Eric Riley). Experience matters in college hoops.

As far as comparing classes, I never said the current crop would compare to next year's. However, you definitely could compare this year's crop with the year before -- this year's team has the #1, #8, #10, and #38 in the RSCI, and last year had #1, #3, #7, and #19. Especially considering that #38 Cauley-Stein is a better pro prospect than #19 Wiltjer, that looks pretty close to me. The difference really is that #1 Davis is better than #1 Noel and #3 Kidd-Gilchrist is way better than #8 Poythress, so last year's group is better IMO, but I don't think it's accurate to say there's "no comparison."
I agree that upperclassmen help. That is the reason I didn't feel this year's UK would be as good as this year's Duke squad, even though they may have more "NBA talent."
I thought having junior Patrick Patterson and a few other upperclassmen helped the elite 09 recruiting class with Demarcus Cousins and John Wall a lot. I didn't expect as much from the '10 recruiting class because it wasn't as talented as the Cousins, Wall group, but also because I didn't see much returning upperclassmen talent left. Harrelson was a surprise that year and Miller and Liggins were both solid contributors. I was surprised by that team's final four run, though they were not as strong as Duke overall that year or as strong as the '09-10 or 11-12 UK teams.
I expected the 11-12 team to be strong with the recruiting class as strong as the Cousins, Wall group + having Terrence Jones and Darius Miller back gave them some solid non-freshmen. This past year's recruiting class did appear to be very solid, (I thought Noel would be fantastic defensively, but didn't think they had anyone like Kidd-Gilchrist) but I thought Duke would be better because UK didn't have any non-freshmen besides Wiltjer that had played much. I still expected them to be a top 10 team though.
I think what Calipari is doing at UK is fascinating. I don't agree with it from a "university" sports perspective, but it gets me thinking every year about how much a recruiting class can do compared to players with experience. I think next year's UK team could very well be the best of them all. This appears to be the strongest recruiting class Calipari has had (with or without Wiggins) and it appears likely that he will have some returning players as well.

p.s. i disagree with the romantic concept that you need upperclassman to win.



sure, from a practical sense of fielding a team, you probably need some upperclassman. however, if you had a team where the top 12 recruits came and left every year, i believe they would have an excellent shot at winning most years and would be the favorite to win as often as any other team. note, excellent shot is probably somewhere ~10-20% chance (which is right where duke is for the past 25 years - that's truly elite).
From a practical standpoint, next year's UK team doesn't actually need any upperclassmen for game purposes as they have 7 recruits. I think this recruiting class would have been a good test for the need for upperclassmen as I think you are correct that there is enough talent that they would be one of the top teams with nobody coming back. Add some highly rated sophomores to the bunch and this should be a very stacked UK team, likely to be #1 in the country and potentially with a 25% chance to win vs. the field if the season goes well for them.
On a side note, I would much prefer the accumulation of RSCI rankings compared to the one data point of ESPN for high school rankings, even though I believe Telep is good at what he does. I trust the feelings of several people that are good at what they do compared to one group of people.

the acc needs to improve over all to get back to being the top conference. Duke gets their share of top recruits so I wouldn't mind Wiggins spending a year in Tallahassee. As much as I enjoy mediocrity jn chapel hill we need the heels to be a top 10 program also.

I would like to see Wiggins at FSU for a year, to help another ACC team be stronger.
My .02, no change given.

Kedsy
03-21-2013, 10:19 AM
1st r.e. rsci vs. espn - well, rsci equal weights a bunch of services. many are under-resourced, not as good, etc., etc. - i mean, that's a lot of kids to keep track of for not a lot of money! why rely on the mean when you probably know which service is doing a better job evaluating the field? i'd guess dave talep + espn's resources do better than the mean (perhaps I'm wrong).


did you have any counterpoint on my anti-rsci view? i ask because i haven't heard someone give the rsci a good defense yet.

The RSCI rotates which services it averages, presumably to weed out the under-resourced, not as good sources. So I don't think that's as big a problem as you do.

On the other hand, while Telep may be good, relying on one opinion can often give you a skewed look at certain players. Sometimes one person/service will just like a guy or not like a guy. Looking at the 2013 RSCI from last summer, Robert Hubbs is rated 12th by Rivals and 19th by Scout, both good services, but ESPN rates him 35th. That's a huge difference. Maybe ESPN's right, I have no idea, but either way something's off. The RSCI deals with outlier opinions like that; looking at just one service obviously does not, and no recruiting service is correct on every call.

lotusland
03-21-2013, 10:26 AM
I never understand the above sentiment about UNC. But then again, not everyone went to Duke between 2006-2009 and experienced the Hansbrough domination and Danny Green dunkfest firsthand year after year. I love mediocre UNC basketball, and even when they are so-so, they can be a threat to us. I'd MUCH rather Wiggins go to FSU, then UK, then last UNC. God anywhere but UNC please.

Well I surprised myself when I typed that but would you really want the Duke/UNC to become what NSCU/UNC had become until this year? It's hard to hate the hapless for very long. Anyway I can't really think of any one and done players at UNC that really hurt us tremendously. I doubt Wiggins makes a bigger impact in one year than Rivers made at Duke. Er wait a minute, bad example;)

jv001
03-21-2013, 10:34 AM
Well I surprised myself when I typed that but would you really want the Duke/UNC to become what NSCU/UNC had become until this year? It's hard to hate the hapless for very long. Anyway I can't really think of any one and done players at UNC that really hurt us tremendously. I doubt Wiggins makes a bigger impact in one year than Rivers made at Duke. Er wait a minute, bad example;)

I have not problem hating the heels for a long lifetime. Hope Wiggins goes to FSU. GoDuke!

timmy c
03-21-2013, 10:58 AM
Here's how a UK fan site responded to DBR...


Randle did come to Kentucky in spite of DBR’s attempt to dissuade him, and it remains quite possible, even likely, that Andrew Wiggins will join him. Understandably, our rivals will be looking to twist this into a Bad Thing to help alleviate their obvious concern at such a UK juggernaut.
more here at A sea of blue (http://www.aseaofblue.com/2013/3/21/4131068/kentucky-basketball-what-julius-randle-means-to-scholarships)

FerryFor50
03-21-2013, 11:04 AM
Here's how a UK fan site responded to DBR...


more here at A sea of blue (http://www.aseaofblue.com/2013/3/21/4131068/kentucky-basketball-what-julius-randle-means-to-scholarships)

Really not sure how DBR attempted to dissuade Randle. Does an 18 year old basketball phenom REALLY listen to what a college basketball internet forum has to say about his future?

InSpades
03-21-2013, 11:10 AM
Does Kentucky ever end up running afoul of the graduation rules? Do they apply for kids who leave early? Does Kentucky have enough bench guys who pull up the statistics?

Is it possible that the existence of Kentucky actually helps Duke? There will be exceptions (like Randle) but for the most part I think Duke will get the "Duke" guys (like Parker). Does this just leave fewer elite level players for the UNC and Kansas types? There's not too many kids that are going to look at Kentucky and Duke. These talented freshman would potentially be more dangerous going to teams that had an established roster.

yancem
03-21-2013, 11:13 AM
I agree that upperclassmen help. That is the reason I didn't feel this year's UK would be as good as this year's Duke squad, even though they may have more "NBA talent."
I thought having junior Patrick Patterson and a few other upperclassmen helped the elite 09 recruiting class with Demarcus Cousins and John Wall a lot. I didn't expect as much from the '10 recruiting class because it wasn't as talented as the Cousins, Wall group, but also because I didn't see much returning upperclassmen talent left. Harrelson was a surprise that year and Miller and Liggins were both solid contributors. I was surprised by that team's final four run, though they were not as strong as Duke overall that year or as strong as the '09-10 or 11-12 UK teams.
I expected the 11-12 team to be strong with the recruiting class as strong as the Cousins, Wall group + having Terrence Jones and Darius Miller back gave them some solid non-freshmen. This past year's recruiting class did appear to be very solid, (I thought Noel would be fantastic defensively, but didn't think they had anyone like Kidd-Gilchrist) but I thought Duke would be better because UK didn't have any non-freshmen besides Wiltjer that had played much. I still expected them to be a top 10 team though.
I think what Calipari is doing at UK is fascinating. I don't agree with it from a "university" sports perspective, but it gets me thinking every year about how much a recruiting class can do compared to players with experience. I think next year's UK team could very well be the best of them all. This appears to be the strongest recruiting class Calipari has had (with or without Wiggins) and it appears likely that he will have some returning players as well.

From a practical standpoint, next year's UK team doesn't actually need any upperclassmen for game purposes as they have 7 recruits. I think this recruiting class would have been a good test for the need for upperclassmen as I think you are correct that there is enough talent that they would be one of the top teams with nobody coming back. Add some highly rated sophomores to the bunch and this should be a very stacked UK team, likely to be #1 in the country and potentially with a 25% chance to win vs. the field if the season goes well for them.
On a side note, I would much prefer the accumulation of RSCI rankings compared to the one data point of ESPN for high school rankings, even though I believe Telep is good at what he does. I trust the feelings of several people that are good at what they do compared to one group of people.


I would like to see Wiggins at FSU for a year, to help another ACC team be stronger.
My .02, no change given.

I agree primarily with everything you said except I am not quite as sold on next years recruiting class. What made the 2012 team so special is that Davis was a singularly amazing talent who didn't require a lot of shots and both he and Kidd-Gilchrist were hard nose defenders. They really bought into a team concept. I have some real reservations about the twins. They both seem to be fairly ball dominate and not necessarily efficient offensively. I'm also not sure that they are in the same league as Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Wall, Cousins, etc. talent wise. I think that they are more like Goodwin and Poythress. Randle also seems to need the ball a fair amount but he seems to be on a similar talent level as the previous great recruits so the question is how well can he bend in? Johnson being a center is at the mercy of the other players offensively. If they share more than I expect, he could be a force if not, he could be a cancer. I don't know much about Young so I can't comment much on him. Lee seems to be the best "team oriented" player but the least talented so he may not see many minutes. The weird thing is that while the addition of Wiggins would absolutely make the class the greatest ever from a talent stand point (if it isn't already) he could actually compound chemistry problems. There is only one ball in play and if everyone thinks that it should be in their hands, that could be a problem.

BD80
03-21-2013, 11:19 AM
It makes no sense for Wiggins to go to unc, he's Canadian, imagine the language barrier! Canadian does not translate easily into pompous drawl.

He should go to FSU , there are a lot of Canadian speakers down there

Gthoma2a
03-21-2013, 11:24 AM
Didn't this season prove that the marrying of top basketball recruits and inferior basketball systems leads to the recruits' utility being diminished by a larger margin than the coaching deficit (no timeout to set up a play at the end of the Robert Morris game...)?

Also, next year will be a big lesson for them in the law of diminishing returns… marginal product will be way down… you can only put 5 guys on the floor at any given point, and they only have 40 minutes to work with.

We could also use this for another little lesson in counter-cyclical business cycle theory. Kentucky is in a trough at the moment, but what they are going to do to get out of this depression is to use expansionary monetary and fiscal policy to stimulate demand for their school. They are going to buy up the scholarships of players like Ryan Harrow so that they can put more money into the hands of players who will consume more, play better (putting them back to work this time next year), sort of like open market operations. They are also going to use fiscal policy to tax the boosters and spend on new players. Through putting money into the young players’ hands, they hope to recover from their current fiasco.

*basketball*

AAA1980
03-21-2013, 11:30 AM
I agree primarily with everything you said except I am not quite as sold on next years recruiting class. What made the 2012 team so special is that Davis was a singularly amazing talent who didn't require a lot of shots and both he and Kidd-Gilchrist were hard nose defenders. They really bought into a team concept. I have some real reservations about the twins. They both seem to be fairly ball dominate and not necessarily efficient offensively. I'm also not sure that they are in the same league as Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Wall, Cousins, etc. talent wise. I think that they are more like Goodwin and Poythress. Randle also seems to need the ball a fair amount but he seems to be on a similar talent level as the previous great recruits so the question is how well can he bend in? Johnson being a center is at the mercy of the other players offensively. If they share more than I expect, he could be a force if not, he could be a cancer. I don't know much about Young so I can't comment much on him. Lee seems to be the best "team oriented" player but the least talented so he may not see many minutes. The weird thing is that while the addition of Wiggins would absolutely make the class the greatest ever from a talent stand point (if it isn't already) he could actually compound chemistry problems. There is only one ball in play and if everyone thinks that it should be in their hands, that could be a problem.

We wont know until we see them play but by all accounts the top players and the whole class from the 2013 are vastly superior to the 2012 players so if you go by that logic you cant compare them to the Polythresses' and Goodwins

From everyhting you hear about the top players in the 2013 class most of these guys dont have huge egos and just want to win who knows i guess well see..

I pray chemistry ruins the team because if not this team is gonna be a juggernaut especially if they land Wiggins..

rsvman
03-21-2013, 11:48 AM
I think we are really underestimating how big of an epic fail this year's Kentucky team was. You have to stop and really think about it.

In the past 6 years, Duke has been ribbed mercilessly for first-round losses in the NCAA tournament, which have happened exactly twice. Once to a team that was really quite good and not much of an underdog at all, and once to a team thought to be a huge underdog but who was really a very good, disciplined team that revolved around a truly outstanding guard.

But we're FAILURES because we lost to them. We're TERRIBLE. We're GOD-AWFUL. We have no business being discussed in the same sentence as other basketball powerhouses like Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, etc.


Folks, in each of those years we at least made it to the tournament. Imagine how you would feel if Duke DIDN'T GET AN INVITATION to even play in the NCAA Tournament. No chance to lose a first-round game to a small-market team. Watching the NCAA tournament on television instead of playing in it. It's actually hard to imagine that happening, because Duke is never that bad.

Well, this year that's what happened to Kentucky. They didn't even get an invite. Then, they compounded the issue by tanking their first-round game against the lowest seeded team in their region. They lost to Rob Mo' in what amounted to a freaking high school gymnasium. Unimaginable! Think about how you felt when we lost to Lehigh last year, and then imagine how much worse it would be to lose to Rob Mo' in the first round of the NIT. Wow. Remember how we worried that good recruits would look elsewhere after we were "embarrased" in the first round of the NCAA Tournament by Lehigh?

That's why I still find it mind-boggling that a guy like Randle commits to Kentucky the very morning after the debacle. How do they maintain the mystique?

OldPhiKap
03-21-2013, 11:49 AM
UK Fan: "Randle did come to Kentucky in spite of DBR’s attempt to dissuade him, and it remains quite possible, even likely, that Andrew Wiggins will join him. Understandably, our rivals will be looking to twist this into a Bad Thing to help alleviate their obvious concern at such a UK juggernaut."

You're not our rival.

CLW
03-21-2013, 11:55 AM
That's why I still find it mind-boggling that a guy like Randle commits to Kentucky the very morning after the debacle. How do they maintain the mystique?

I too thought how insane that was for a top recruit like Randle to commit to Kentucky after the debacle of the season that just ended the night before. Then I realized Cal RARELY uses the Championship "pitch" to recruits. In fact, it's almost always the "one and done" / "NBA" pitch he uses to the actual recruits. Now he spins this to the fans that if we get all this talent the championships the fans really care about will just come naturally.

So the kids don't care whether they win the whole thing or lose to Robert Morris in the 1st round of the NIT. They are "in school" for just over a semester and then off to make their millions in the NBA. Cal probably also pitches it as you will have a huge/loyal fan base from Big Blue Nation that will root for you in the pros.

The actual success of Kentucky's basketball program is 0% of what Cal is selling to the players and it doesn't appear they care or at least aren't thinking about what happens if I don't adjust and I/my team has a bad year.

NSDukeFan
03-21-2013, 12:20 PM
I agree primarily with everything you said except I am not quite as sold on next years recruiting class. What made the 2012 team so special is that Davis was a singularly amazing talent who didn't require a lot of shots and both he and Kidd-Gilchrist were hard nose defenders. They really bought into a team concept. I have some real reservations about the twins. They both seem to be fairly ball dominate and not necessarily efficient offensively. I'm also not sure that they are in the same league as Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Wall, Cousins, etc. talent wise. I think that they are more like Goodwin and Poythress. Randle also seems to need the ball a fair amount but he seems to be on a similar talent level as the previous great recruits so the question is how well can he bend in? Johnson being a center is at the mercy of the other players offensively. If they share more than I expect, he could be a force if not, he could be a cancer. I don't know much about Young so I can't comment much on him. Lee seems to be the best "team oriented" player but the least talented so he may not see many minutes. The weird thing is that while the addition of Wiggins would absolutely make the class the greatest ever from a talent stand point (if it isn't already) he could actually compound chemistry problems. There is only one ball in play and if everyone thinks that it should be in their hands, that could be a problem.

I agree that Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist were fantastic recruits, excellent defensive players and unselfish team players that made the whole thing work last year. My understanding is that although coach Calipari is selling the best way to get to the NBA, he is also promoting hard work, team play and solid defense to the recruits. I think he has done a good job getting his recruits to play together and defend (this year not included.) My impression is that the Harrisons can defend quite well, so, if the team can play well together, Randle, the Harrisons, Young and Johnson would be a monster line-up. Add in Lee, Cauley-Stein, Poythress and/or Goodwin and that is a formidable team with depth.
Mind you, I would prefer the Duke team next year with a nice balance of talent and experience.

Des Esseintes
03-21-2013, 01:24 PM
I agree that Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist were fantastic recruits, excellent defensive players and unselfish team players that made the whole thing work last year. My understanding is that although coach Calipari is selling the best way to get to the NBA, he is also promoting hard work, team play and solid defense to the recruits. I think he has done a good job getting his recruits to play together and defend (this year not included.) My impression is that the Harrisons can defend quite well, so, if the team can play well together, Randle, the Harrisons, Young and Johnson would be a monster line-up. Add in Lee, Cauley-Stein, Poythress and/or Goodwin and that is a formidable team with depth.
Mind you, I would prefer the Duke team next year with a nice balance of talent and experience.

Plus, the two UK teams prior to last year's were title contenders, too. E8, FF, and national championship three years running. Each of those teams had a very different roster, yet all were threats to win the whole thing, suggesting that what Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist brought was not all that anomalous.

BD80
03-21-2013, 01:35 PM
When does the failure of these players to graduate catch up to ky?

How will academics affect the decisions of current players re: going pro. I understand that those less interested in academics would have had a schedule so easy that unc AFAM would be rigorous in comparison, but they will have to make grades to continue. It is not uncommon for ky players to completely bail on classes in the second semester. Were Goodwin or Poythress in class this semester?

Bluedog
03-21-2013, 01:43 PM
When does the failure of these players to graduate catch up to ky?

How will academics affect the decisions of current players re: going pro. I understand that those less interested in academics would have had a schedule so easy that unc AFAM would be rigorous in comparison, but they will have to make grades to continue. It is not uncommon for ky players to completely bail on classes in the second semester. Were Goodwin or Poythress in class this semester?

Cal has done a good job at making sure his players still go to class/at least get the bare minimum GPA their second semester to remain in good standing academically. He knows with the NCAA APR requirements, he can't afford to risk it. Cousins and Bledsoe are the only two I've heard that didn't cut the mustard second semester - everybody else got the job done. Wall, Patterson, Knight were all good students supposedly. It doesn't matter if nobody graduates - the APR only cares if they are in good academic standing when they depart. Cal has certainly devised a system....

devildeac
03-21-2013, 02:30 PM
It makes no sense for Wiggins to go to unc, he's Canadian, imagine the language barrier! Canadian does not translate easily into pompous drawl.

He should go to FSU , there are a lot of Canadian speakers down there

Even more difficult to translate into Swahili:rolleyes:.

sporthenry
03-21-2013, 03:41 PM
Really not sure how DBR attempted to dissuade Randle. Does an 18 year old basketball phenom REALLY listen to what a college basketball internet forum has to say about his future?

Yeah, was it the articles or the forum? Should we give ourselves a nice pat on the back for being as influential as we were? But this was the same fan base who called in and said the "liberal socialism" kept them out of the tournament.

OldPhiKap
03-21-2013, 04:03 PM
Yeah, was it the articles or the forum? Should we give ourselves a nice pat on the back for being as influential as we were?

Pssst, Mr. Wiggins -- UNC cheerleaders have cooties and Chapel Hill is infested with bed bugs. FSU is the place for you.

Love, DBR.

Ichabod Drain
03-21-2013, 04:09 PM
Pssst, Mr. Wiggins -- UNC cheerleaders have cooties and Chapel Hill is infested with bed bugs. FSU is the place for you.

Love, DBR.

I initially thought the UNC Cheerleaders comment was going in a completely different direction...

FerryFor50
03-21-2013, 04:17 PM
Pssst, Mr. Wiggins -- UNC cheerleaders have cooties and Chapel Hill is infested with bed bugs. FSU is the place for you.

Love, DBR.

I thought it was the other way around? UNC cheerleaders are infested by bed bugs and Chapel Hill has cooties...

lotusland
03-21-2013, 04:18 PM
When does the failure of these players to graduate catch up to ky?

How will academics affect the decisions of current players re: going pro. I understand that those less interested in academics would have had a schedule so easy that unc AFAM would be rigorous in comparison, but they will have to make grades to continue. It is not uncommon for ky players to completely bail on classes in the second semester. Were Goodwin or Poythress in class this semester?

I'm sure UK players will have no problems with eligibility now that UNC has established the method to follow for maintaining the academic facade the NCAA is looking for.

BD80
03-21-2013, 06:36 PM
I'm sure UK players will have no problems with eligibility now that UNC has established the method to follow for maintaining the academic facade the NCAA is looking for.

The ky athletic department "academic" advisors still laugh and shake their heads when the unc AFAM classes are mentioned. They simply buy enough FatHead lifesize posters of each roster player to put in every classroom on campus. Instead of "no show" classes, they have "all show" classes. Interesting result: the posters outperform the actual basketball players by a significant margin, and the posters outperform the class average by a narrow margin.

tommy
03-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Is it possible that the existence of Kentucky actually helps Duke? There will be exceptions (like Randle) but for the most part I think Duke will get the "Duke" guys (like Parker). There's not too many kids that are going to look at Kentucky and Duke.

This is simply not accurate. Just in the last year alone, the following players have looked hard at both schools (and I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head):


Shabazz Muhammad
Alex Poythress
Amile Jefferson
Mitch McGary
Jabari Parker
Marcus Lee
Julius Randle
Karl Towns

gumbomoop
03-31-2013, 11:41 AM
Harrow transferring to Ga St, to be near ill father, hopes to get waiver from NCAA to play in 2013-'14.

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/college/harrow-transferring-from-kentucky-to-georgia-state/nW795/

slower
03-31-2013, 12:09 PM
Pssst, Mr. Wiggins -- UNC cheerleaders have cooties and Chapel Hill is infested with bed bugs. FSU is the place for you.

Love, DBR.

Many of my UNC acquaintances are CONVINCED that Wiggins is heading their way. Let's hope it's just wishful thinking.

johnb
03-31-2013, 12:11 PM
This is simply not accurate. Just in the last year alone, the following players have looked hard at both schools (and I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head):


Shabazz Muhammad
Alex Poythress
Amile Jefferson
Mitch McGary
Jabari Parker
Marcus Lee
Julius Randle
Karl Towns

Agreed.

A top 5 coach at a top 5 basketball school. A rabid fan base and teammates who will be playing in the NBA. A high likelihood of competing in the Final Four but also learning every day in practice what it takes to compete at the highest level. No wonder a hard-working star player would consider Duke and Kentucky even if he matriculates somewhere else: our summaries from a bball perspective are more similar than they are different. There are differences. Cal has a history of cutting corners, and we are a top 10 academic school, but even our own coach has recruited guys who had a marginal interest in class attendance (and several of the KY players would have rocked at Duke).

Even the cracks about the African-American program at Carolina seem vaguely wrong headed. I like good natured jokes and don't mind undercutting hypocrisy, but most of the Carolina football players were--I assume--working diligently and graduating. Even the UNC A-A program was led astray by a single professor. if it was institutional, and senior people endorsed the cutting of corners, then they should get slammed (akin to Cal's junk). But Harvard and the military academies have had their cheating scandals, and none of us really think those places are cesspools of sloth. So I think it's fine to tease and display the occasional schadenfreude, but I'd be bummed if we all really believed these differences between Us and Them.

tbyers11
03-31-2013, 12:37 PM
Many of my UNC acquaintances are CONVINCED that Wiggins is heading their way. Let's hope it's just wishful thinking.

Is there any evidence out there that it is more than wishful thinking? When he re-classified I thought most everyone said it was a two horse race between UK and FSU.

Re: Harrow and sick father. The father explains his absence for a few games at the start of the year. Even though he has now transferred twice I hope the NCAA grants his waiver as Calipari was likely to have run him off regardless of sick parent.