Who was the better Captain?

[Bluedawg]

I should have started Who was the better captian?

OK, I'm game, let's give it a go.

[YmoBeThere]

who the heck are all these other people? We are talking Star Trek right? :D

[hc5duke]

I honestly never really followed Star Trek* but Picard gets my vote for his hilarious appearance on Extras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extras_%28TV_series%29).

* I understand I need to return my nerd id and certification now, but you see, my dog chewed up my certification so bad and I was never issued a proper id.

[YmoBeThere]

Who is letting all the kiddies vote? Haha, I mean its like Connery versus Roger Moore as Bond. Do you want a man or a wimp?

[EarlJam]

There is no one but Kirk.

Kirk! Kirk! Kirk!

KIRK!

KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII RK!

80

-EarlJam, avid supporter/worshiper of Catain James T. Kirk!

[Bluedawg]

who the heck are all these other people? We are talking Star Trek right? :D

Captain James T. Kirk USS Enterprise 1701 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701%29)

Captain Jean-Luc Picard USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) (http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/enterprise/1701d.html)

Captain Kathryn Janeway USS Voyager (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Voyager)

Captain Jonathan Archer Enterprise (NX-01) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_%28NX-01%29)

Captain Benjamin Sisko Deep Space Nine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Nine)

[edensquad]

A message from the Captain:

[YmoBeThere]

Captain James T. Kirk USS Enterprise 1701 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701%29)

Captain Jean-Luc Picard [USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) (http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/enterprise/1701d.html)

Captain Kathryn Janeway USS Voyager (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Voyager)

Captain Jonathan Archer Enterprise (NX-01) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_%28NX-01%29)

Captain Benjamin Sisko Deep Space Nine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Nine)

Vaguely familiar with the others, but like hc5duke, depending upon which board is issuing the nerd certification, I may or may not qualify. There is only one Star Trek and Tiberius is our ruler. All the others are derivatives....

*I am laughing the whole time I am typing. Oh and though he sports the British accent(nowhere near as cool as Connery's Scottish one), JLP(wow French first name, another strike against) falls in the wimp camp.

[Bluedawg]

Vaguely familiar with the others, but like hc5duke, depending upon which board is issuing the nerd certification, I may or may not qualify. There is only one Star Trek and Tiberius is our ruler. All the others are derivatives....

Actually, unlike many shows that try to do remakes the Star trek people did a good job of making all of this fit. This is why I think all the different shows worked so well. They were not remakes, but continuations in a time-line

The original James T. Kirk on the USS Enterprise 1701, however, the show made it clear that he was not the first captain if that ship.

Captain Jean-Luc Picard was set a century later. the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D) was a Galaxy class ship while 1701 was a Constitution class. The movies, and occasionally on TNG, 1701 A -C appeared to maintain the time-line . Picard's crew referred to the Kirk crew from time to time and Dr. McCoy was in the first show.

Captain Jonathan Archer on Enterprise (NX-01) was a part of Earth Starfleet before the formation of the united federation of planets. they took this show almost back to the beginning. Apparently there was one ship before NX-1 the USS Enterprise (XCV 330) (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/9/9c/250px-USS_Enterprise_(XCV_330).jpg)

Captain Kathryn Janeway on the USS Voyager, an Intrepid-class, was an entirely different show and ship.

Captain Benjamin Sisko on Deep Space Nine was a space station that USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), among other ships visited from time to time. Voyager was the only show that never tied into the USS Enterprise in one way or another.

[alteran]

I made an emotional vote for Kirk.

I agree that by most rational standards, you have to go with Picard. He was brilliant, practically Vulcan in his rationality (even Spock said so), and never, ever, EVER really made a mistake or did the wrong thing. Frankly, I'd probably rather have him as a captain, particularly if I was wearing red.

Also, he got voted sexiest man alive despite being bald (really bald, not Schick bald). Trust me, I'm very, very sympathetic to that.

I'll also concede that Kirk could be really, really irritating. He was a skirt-chaser. He violated the Prime Directive once a day and twice on Sundays. He read the Constitution like it was Macbeth. Sometimes, he was even a little paunchy.

But I think the datedness of the original show makes people forget how cool Kirk could be. He had many human frailties, and he struggled to transcend them. Unlike Picard, Kirk made mistakes all the time, but he learned from his mistakes. He was an emotional man when it wasn't cool to be an emotional man. His emotions got himself into holes he had to dig himself out of. He chose his friends over pragmatism. He had regrets.

By comparison, Picard is a robot.

And dont forget, Kirk kissed Uhura on prime-time television in the 60s for God's sake-- and it weren't no peck on the cheek, either. Someone please give him kudos for THAT.

The original show looks cheesy in the 21st century (go-go dresses and boots, beehive hairdos, Klingons with goatees, leading men in mascara, etc). But if you can pull yourself back from that, Kirk had more than enough going for him.

p.s. Ironically, I find myself posting this and losing my 114-post title of Chris Carawell, arguably the most "Kirkian" hero in the Duke pantheon.

[JasonEvans]

Look, I love the original and adore Shatner for his amazing ability to be cheesey and cool at the same time...

But I voted for Picard. He faced far more intellectual challenges than Shatner and handled them perfectly. No way Shatner ever figures out ways of ousmarting Q-- especially the conundrum that was he series finale. With Kirk at the helm there, humanity would cease to exist. Plus, when the situation called for a fight, he was a brillian tactician. True, he never had anything as smart as the Corbomite Maneuver, but he handled the Borg nicely and they were one tough opponent. And "there are three lights!!" is one of the great lines/moments in Trek history.

Sadly, as I write this, there are no votes for Sisko. Pity because he was brilliant and a great captain in an imposible situation. And was there ever a more confusing situation than having your mentor/best friend come back into your life as a smoking hot young female? How did he not hit Dax?!?!

--Jason "Janeway sucked" Evans

[Jarhead]

He looks more like a lawyer to me.

[alteran]

Look, I love the original and adore Shatner for his amazing ability to be cheesey and cool at the same time...

But I voted for Picard. He faced far more intellectual challenges than Shatner and handled them perfectly. No way Shatner ever figures out ways of ousmarting Q-- especially the conundrum that was he series finale. With Kirk at the helm there, humanity would cease to exist. Plus, when the situation called for a fight, he was a brillian tactician. True, he never had anything as smart as the Corbomite Maneuver, but he handled the Borg nicely and they were one tough opponent. And "there are three lights!!" is one of the great lines/moments in Trek history.
--Jason "Janeway sucked" Evans

Jason, Jason, Jason.

Funny how you botched a line you say is so memorable. The line was, "there are FOUR lights!" And the torturer was trying to get him to say there were five.

I'll forgive your casual relationship with the facts, however-- you are a journalist, after all. ;-7

Seriously, do not even try to take me on in Trek Trivia.

I think Picard versus Kirk is a pretty close call, and as I said, my Kirk vote was a little emotional. Obviously, Picard is the trendy pick these days.

Most people now think of Kirk as a joke. I think this is mostly because much of Shatner's post-TOS work is almost a satire of the original, and the extreme "datedness" of the original series to modern eyes. (I think people have forgotten how ground-breaking TOS was, and I'm not just talking socially. Compare Kirk to the leading television men of the time.)

Seriously, watch a few old episodes and tell me if Kirk isn't a little better than you remember.

Granted, Kirk might not have outsmarted Q in the TNG finale, but Picard would never have marooned Khan on Ceti Alpha Five, a magnanimous but tragically doomed gesture. He would never have shamefully blamed a crewman for making a mistake he himself made years ago because of personal demons, than admitted fault and taken the crewman under his wing-- Picard HAS no demons.

I think Sisko's popularity suffers from a multitude of factors. Primary among them is how bad/grating an actor Avery Brooks frequently was. Particularly when he tried to portray outrage-- it was like someone reading a phonebook loudly with perfect enunciation to an ESL class.

That criticism aside, I agree he was underrated. He'd be a solid number three in my book.

You hate Janeway, but I actually think she got a bit of a raw deal as well. I kind of thought she hailed a little back to Kirk-- more human, stubborn, and impulsive. Unfortunately, not a lot of charisma, and saddled with a ridiculous voice that was less "follow me into battle" and more "follow the yellow brick road."

I'd probably list Archer as my least favorite captan. Enterprise was extremely disappointing. Nothing bad, nothing special.

[JasonEvans]

Thanks for correcting me on the lights-- it has been a long time since I saw that episode.

I think the thing that sums Picard up for me best is the 2-parter where he gets kidnapped by smugglers who do not know he is a starfleet member. The smuggler crew is at the mercy of a ruthless captain who controls all of them with a dog collar like thing that can torture or kill. Still, the smugglers manage to overthrow the captain and who do they pick as their new captain? The new guy-- Picard.

Folks, when even the bad guys who barely know you pick you as the leader, you are a born captain.

-Jason "make no mistake, Kirk was da bomb too... but Picard was a tiny bit better" Evans

[JasonEvans]

As an aside, after careful thought I have decided that EarlJam is the Riker of the Off-Topic board? One could also argue he is the Dr. Bashir of the board but he is not quite analytical enough. I also thought of Chekov, but Chekov was not an important enough player.

-Jason "JB Duke is our Odo, of that I am sure ;) " Evans

[Moose]

I have decided that EarlJam is the Riker of the Off-Topic board.

Great. If Jason is Picard and Earl is Riker, I'm as good as dead. Seriously, I wore a red shirt to work today. It's over, man.

- Moose

[JBDuke]

As an aside, after careful thought I have decided that EarlJam is the Riker of the Off-Topic board? One could also argue he is the Dr. Bashir of the board but he is not quite analytical enough. I also thought of Chekov, but Chekov was not an important enough player.

-Jason "JB Duke is our Odo, of that I am sure ;) " Evans

As Garak said to Odo in the episode "Call to Arms", I am "an island of tranquility in a sea of chaos." :)

[EarlJam]

Great. If Jason is Picard and Earl is Riker, I'm as good as dead. Seriously, I wore a red shirt to work today. It's over, man.

- Moose

Hey man, don't knock me until you've been through a class IV ion storm in the middle of the asteroid belt just inside sector four of the Van Nostron galaxy with me.........man!

-EarlJam

P.S. But really, while you're donning the red shirt, could you, Stevens and Smith get ready to join an away team with Spock and Kirk on Utar VI? 'ppreciate it.

[Moose]

It's not your captaining ability...it's just the red-shirts always die. No matter what. You could successfully pilot us through a class VII ion storm and I'd probably trip out of the shuttle craft and impale myself on a Vulcan's ear...

Seriously, you're the fastest rising star out of the DBR Academy. You'll make captain in no time. But, since you're Riker, you'll stay with the Off Topic Board just because you love serving Jason, er...I mean, Picard, so much.

- Moose

[EarlJam]

It's not your captaining ability...it's just the red-shirts always die. No matter what. You could successfully pilot us through a class VII ion storm and I'd probably trip out of the shuttle craft and impale myself on a Vulcan's ear...

Seriously, you're the fastest rising star out of the DBR Academy. You'll make captain in no time. But, since you're Riker, you'll stay with the Off Topic Board just because you love serving Jason, er...I mean, Picard, so much.

- Moose

Moose,

Do not, repeat, do NOT buy into the superstition that the "red shirts" always die. Just look at the log. In the past two months, we've sent down 22 landing parties. Of the 22 parties, a total of 46 "red shirts" have participated. Of those 46, let's seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, um, errrrr, hmmmmmph. Huh.

Nevermind. Forget it. No big deal.

Wanna grab some Sorien brandy before you join the team?

-EarlJam

[Moose]

Wanna grab some Sorien brandy before you join the team?

-EarlJam

I'd rather get the Romulan Ale (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Romulan_ale). Oh, that wonderful stuff!

- Moose

[alteran]

-Jason "make no mistake, Kirk was da bomb too... but Picard was a tiny bit better" Evans
We're pretty close on this, so the following is not really an attempt to change what I think is a pretty reasonable position. I'm really just mentioning it because I thought of it after my last post.

We've both used anecdotes where the style of one captain seems less able then the other to succeed. But I can think of one situation where Kirk and Picard faced substantially the same problem, and I think it's pretty telling.

In "A Taste of Armaggedon" and "Symbiosis," Kirk and Picard, respectively, wrestle with obeying the Prime Directive yet allowing great suffering, or violating the PD and alleviating the suffering. Predictably, Kirk violates the Prime Directive, while Picard does not.

Picard could actually have alleviated the suffering of an entire planet when he discovered that a required substance from one planet was not actually a treatment for all the inhabitants of another, but a non-fatally addictive drug fraudulently PEDDLED as a treatment-- for generations. All Picard had to do was say something. Picard chose an extremely narrow interpretation of the PD that didn't even allow him or his crew to intimate that a devastating lie was being perpetuated. The Prime Directive was followed, but an entire planet not only suffered, but in fact continued to toil relentlessly for the society perpetrating the fraud.

Kirk, on the other hand, was faced with two planets locked in perpetual war. They were able to have this war last indefinitely because they had negotiated a mutual agreement to wage war cleanly via a number of treaty-specified computers. The end result was that bombings occurred virtually, sparing crops and infrastructure and allowing the society to survive. The drawback was that people labeled as "war dead" in these virtual attacks were required to report to incineration chambers. Typical for Kirk, an extremely attractive and suspiciously underclad young hottie was involved. Kirk thought very briefly about the situation, pulled out both phasers and started blasting the incinerators. He destroyed the war computers on the gamble that when faced with the prospect of a REAL war, both sides would choose to wage peace.

The end results-- Picard allows an entire planet to wallow in suffering and virtual slavery but keeps his precious moral purity intact, whereas Kirk blows stuff up, stops the perpetual war, AND gets the space chick.

No contest.

--alt- "I have a good suggestion for who here should be Neelix-- he's affable but not good with numbers" -eran

[EarlJam]

The end results-- Picard allows an entire planet to wallow in suffering and virtual slavery but keeps his precious moral purity intact, whereas Kirk blows stuff up, stops the perpetual war, AND gets the space chick.

No contest.

--alt- "I have a good suggestion for who here should be Neelix-- he's affable but not good with numbers" -eran

Sing it brotha. Amen. Kirk forever.

-EarlJam

[YmoBeThere]

Wow...some of you guys are really into this.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Wow...some of you guys are really into this.

And I remember every episode they talk about. And since I usually work at home, I get my Star Trek fix 4 days a week with back to back TNGs and then back to back Voyagers from 2 till 6 on Spike network.

Interest thing about Voyager. Since I stopped watching it the last year or two it was on, some of these episodes are new to me! And they are not bad.

And I still vote for Kirk.

[alteran]

Wow...some of you guys are really into this.

Yeah, I guess I went a little overboard-- Star Trek just gives me an irresistible chance to "get my geek on."

--alteran

[Tommac]

The other day Denny Crane and I were just discussing this topic and Denny thought that Captain Kirk was the best captain of all the Star Trek shows.:)

[knights68]

15. Picard's doctor looks better than Kirk's and never said: "Darn" it Jean-Luc, I'm a doctor, not an escalator!"
14. Picard didn't have to cheat at the Kobayashi Maru Test.
13. Picard's engineer has X-Ray vision.
12. Picard decoded the last message of the Creators almost singlehandedly.
11. When Kirk was Picard's age, they made him retire
10. Picard's officers get promoted. Kirk's get court-martialed or dies.
9. When Picard's senior officers get killed, they *stay dead*.
8. Picard's nemesis: an omnipotent malevolent being. Kirk's nemesis: a beer-bellied liar
7. Picard never had problems finding dilithium.
5. Picard's picture is beside the word confidence in the dictionary.
4. Picard has the guts to stand among hundreds of Klingons and argue with them.
3. Kirk never knew Scotty lied to him about the status of the engines because he didn't understand the Enterprise didn't use gas.
2. Picard's science officer has a detachable head.
And here's for the real, ultimate, beating reason:
1. Picard LIVES!


15. Kirk can beat a Vulcan at Chess
14. Picard is a French man with an English accent.
13. Kirk can infiltrate Gangsters, Nazis, and even the Pentagon -- easily.
12. Kirk would date Beverly Crusher -- and darn the consequences!!
11. Diplomacy for Kirk is a phaser and a smirk.
10. Kirk can beat up a Klingon bare-handed.
9. Kirk is a leader, not a follower.
8. Kirk doesn't test the engines -- he just fires them up.
7. When Kirk says "Boldly Go," he MEANS it.
6. Three Words: Flying Leg Kick. 2 more words: Shoulder Roll!
5. Kirk was NEVER infiltrated by the Borg and used against the
Federation.
4. Kirk traveled through The Great Barrier, met God, and wasn't even impressed.
3. Kirk's bedroom is a passion pit with electric sheets.
2. Kirk would never let his Chief of Security wear a ponytail.
1. Kirk never drinks tea. Ever.

[EarlJam]

Another formidable captain....

88

[EarlJam]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

89

[EarlJam]

Exciting...........and new...........

90

[captmojo]

Kangaroo.:cool:

[YmoBeThere]

Yeah, I guess I went a little overboard-- Star Trek just gives me an irresistible chance to "get my geek on."

--alteran

I had always heard the stories, now I know they are true.