2013 West (LA) Region Discussion (tOSU #2)

[hurleyfor3]

This thread is for discussion of impending and potential matchups in the West region. Regional finals are Thursday/Saturday at the Staples Center in LA.

[hurleyfor3]

Gonzo is #1 and is the weakest #1. Regional winner plays the Midwest winner in the Final Four.

[CR9]

Ohio State walks this one. KSU might be more overrated than Gonzaga.

[luburch]

I hope Gonzaga wins it just to spite all the naysayers.

[CoachJ10]

The weakest #1 gets the weakest region. Not even close. Seth Davis (as he is prone to do) is belaboring a point in his obnoxious manner on the Zags "deserving their #1 seed". Duke or Miami deserved this over the Zags...shouldn't be much debate about this.

[Bluedog]

Pittsburgh as an 8 seed is pretty tough IMO.

[mr. synellinden]

Pittsburgh as an 8 seed is pretty tough IMO.

This region is way too weak. If New Mexico is as good as people say, they have a good chance of making the Final Four. I could see them playing Pitt in the regional final.

[FerryFor50]

Easily the weakest region. I think Duke should go back to playing a cupcake non conference schedule. Heck, join the WCC.

[Bluedog]

Hey, at least we didn't get Iona as a 15 seed. That is a damn good team for a 15. I think OSU prevails, but definitely the Gaels are not a team to be taken lightly. Glad we have Albany instead. Also, I want to stroke my own ego a bit and say a few weeks ago everybody was saying OSU was a 6/7 seed and I thought they were a VERY scary team as a 6/7. And people disagreed. Well, they wound up with a 2. ;) Things can change in a hurry.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Easily the weakest region. I think Duke should go back to playing a cupcake non conference schedule. Heck, join the WCC.

I think Gonzaga getting the #1 seed this year is a Lifetime Achievement Award for all of the "little schools". The fact that Gonzaga was ranked #1(by default) gave the Committee the cover they needed to give them a 1 seed.

The very fact that the Committee Chairman, as mentioned, had nothing to back up why Gonzaga was a 1 seed other than "teams bring their "A" game against them" proves it.

[ice-9]

Pittsburgh as an 8 seed is pretty tough IMO.

If you're the 1-seed, yes, Pittsburgh is a tough draw.

For everyone else, having Pittsburgh there is what makes this bracket easier. Because in the not-insignificant chance that Pittsburgh upsets Gonzaga, everyone else's probability of winning the region goes up dramatically. That's what makes the West easy.

The two ingredients that make a region difficult are
1) Good teams for each seed line (e.g. Florida at 3-seed is very strong)
2) Match-ups that minimize chances of upsets (e.g. no team like Pittsburgh opening up the bracket)

By that metric, the Midwest is tough and the West is easy.

[Ichabod Drain]

I think Gonzaga getting the #1 seed this year is a Lifetime Achievement Award for all of the "little schools". The fact that Gonzaga was ranked #1(by default) gave the Committee the cover they needed to give them a 1 seed.

The very fact that the Committee Chairman, as mentioned, had nothing to back up why Gonzaga was a 1 seed other than "teams bring their "A" game against them" proves it.

You haven't watched the Zags play much this year have you? They are good... Very good. They may struggle against teams with big guards but every team has a weakness. Don't sleep on Gonzaga!!!

[dukebluesincebirth]

As the brackets unfolded on CBS and they finally got to the West, it felt like they had filled up all the other slots with the best teams, then put whatever was left in the west. Gonzaga, Kansas St., and Ohio St???? Wow.

[uh_no]

As the brackets unfolded on CBS and they finally got to the West, it felt like they had filled up all the other slots with the best teams, then put whatever was left in the west. Gonzaga, Kansas St., and Ohio St???? Wow.

I mean being in the finals of the Big12 tournament and winning the Big 10 tournament make them "whatever is left?"

Ohio state is #5 kenpom....they were #8 overall so got sent west.

[TexHawk]

Also, I want to stroke my own ego a bit and say a few weeks ago everybody was saying OSU was a 6/7 seed and I thought they were a VERY scary team as a 6/7. And people disagreed. Well, they wound up with a 2. ;) Things can change in a hurry.

I was one that *strenuously* disagreed with that stance. At the time, they were 18-7, coming off a 22 point drubbing at Wisconsin, with games left against MSU, @Indiana, home to Illinois (who had already blown them out), plus the Big10 tournament. It did not look good for them.

Kudos for predicting that they could turn that around, but I still see them as a bit too streaky to make it to Atlanta. I guess we'll see.

[DukeAlumBS]

I agree very weak bracket. But OSU, or a fired up Pitt, or even Wisconsin will win this. I have OSU winning this bracket.
Have nice day

Jim

[superdave]

I'm not sold on Gonzaga because they dont play a tough conference schedule, but they have some nice non-conference wins including K State, Davidson, Clemson, Oklahoma, WVU, Baylor. So you know they are good enough to get past Pitt in the 2nd round.

This just feels like a lucky draw for Ohio State, who knows how to grind out games. I'm staying far away from the New Mejico bandwagon.

My sleeper would be Ole Miss. I could see them running circles around Wisco then K State.

[sporthenry]

I'm not sold on Gonzaga because they dont play a tough conference schedule, but they have some nice non-conference wins including K State, Davidson, Clemson, Oklahoma, WVU, Baylor. So you know they are good enough to get past Pitt in the 2nd round.

This just feels like a lucky draw for Ohio State, who knows how to grind out games. I'm staying far away from the New Mejico bandwagon.

My sleeper would be Ole Miss. I could see them running circles around Wisco then K State.

I agree with Gonzaga. And most of their big games were 3 months ago. Just tough to stay sharp without big games.

But I'm not sold on OSU. Despite Craft playing so well lately on offense, I just don't see him as a consistent threat. They'll go as far as Thomas shoots them. I'm also jumping on the New Mexico band wagon. MWC was a tough conference and they came out the best. Arizona is a tough match up for them but I'd like either of those to take out OSU.

[ArtVandelay]

Am I the only one who isn't all that high on Ohio St.? They're fine, but not amazing, in what little I have seen of them. I mean, sure, they have a decent shot of coming out of this bracket just by default. But J. Will picked them to win the frickin' National Championship last night! That struck me as fairly crazy.

[sporthenry]

Gottlieb just went on a rant and I couldn't help but agree with him. Pitt was just hit with the dumb elbow rule. Somehow driving to the basket, one of their player's elbow got up and hit a kid in the face. Completely incidental contact and his arm was just following his natural motion while driving.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

You haven't watched the Zags play much this year have you? They are good... Very good. They may struggle against teams with big guards but every team has a weakness. Don't sleep on Gonzaga!!!

Sorry it took me a couple of days to respond, but I was sleeping on Gonzaga and I just woke up.

Anyways, I never said Gonzaga wasn't good, just not deserving of a #1 seed.

And as I said earlier, there is no compelling evidence to prove why they should have received a #1 except that they've not lost in a long time and they are ranked #1.

[Bluedog]

I think the call was correct based on the rule, but the rule needs to be refined, IMO. It certainly was more worthy of a flagrant call than the ridiculous call against Dre a couple years back when he was making a move to the basket. This at least was an elbow out to the side with the arm not dribbling the ball rather than just elbow elevation based on the shot. That call on Dre was beyond absurd - the rule needs to be more clearly defined. I liked it when they didn't call the flagrant in the OSU-(Michigan?) game because it seemed like incidental contact to me, but the rule seems clear that it probably should have been if you just look at the wording of it.

[superdave]

Am I the only one who isn't all that high on Ohio St.? They're fine, but not amazing, in what little I have seen of them. I mean, sure, they have a decent shot of coming out of this bracket just by default. But J. Will picked them to win the frickin' National Championship last night! That struck me as fairly crazy.

I dont think OSU winning it all is crazy. They are ranked ahead of us on KenPom's site, and are #3 adjO and #11 adjD. Better than us on both counts. Their path is not bad either - Gonzaga is beatable, and I think they matchup fairly well againt anyone because of their athleticism.

[jipops]

Pittsburgh still down to Wichita St in the 2nd half. Darn you kenpom!!! Though Pitt is an 8 seed, they are rated 8th in kenpom's ratings. I have them upsetting Gonzaga.

[duke96]

Pittsburgh still down to Wichita St in the 2nd half. Darn you kenpom!!! Though Pitt is an 8 seed, they are rated 8th in kenpom's ratings. I have them upsetting Gonzaga.

Impossible to watch this game. Doug Gottlieb too annoying.

[tommy]

Pittsburgh still down to Wichita St in the 2nd half. Darn you kenpom!!! Though Pitt is an 8 seed, they are rated 8th in kenpom's ratings. I have them upsetting Gonzaga.

Th Shockers are now blowing out Pitt late in the second half. I expect Jamie Dixon to be named the new coach at USC in the near future. He's taken this program as far as he can.

[Ben1029]

Pittsburgh still down to Wichita St in the 2nd half. Darn you kenpom!!! Though Pitt is an 8 seed, they are rated 8th in kenpom's ratings. I have them upsetting Gonzaga.

I also have them taking down Gonzaga. Major mistake!:mad:

[Gmadaduke]

I've caught parts of all of the games so far... Wichita State is the most impressive team I've seen today. Won't be an easy out for the Zags.

[ChillinDuke]

Not fun to watch. I had Pitt going far, mainly because of the competition in their area of the bracket. Bracket: donezo.

Pitt looked pretty bad.

- Chillin

[jdj4duke]

Pittsburgh as an 8 seed is pretty tough IMO.

As of about 5 minutes ago, apparently not.

[Bluedog]

As of about 5 minutes ago, apparently not.

ha, yeah....I guess we should no longer trust Pitt in the postseason. Kenpom misled me!

[superdave]

ha, yeah....I guess we should no longer trust Pitt in the postseason. Kenpom misled me!

Before today, only one of Pitt's losses was by double digits. They had huuuuge margins of victory (32,35,25,26,42,59,28,28,38,26).

Would those big margins inflate their KenPom ranking? Bueller?

[BlueDevilBrowns]

So, I don't know if anyone's had a chance to catch Ole Miss SG Marshall Henderson play this year, but he's a pretty entertaining character(and not a bad basketball player, either).

Apparently he's a life-long Duke fan:

”I’ve been a Duke fan since my dad ever told me anything about basketball. It was all about Duke, Duke, Duke. I love the way they play.”

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/21/marshall-henderson-had-an-epic-press-conference-today/

[tbyers11]

Before today, only one of Pitt's losses was by double digits. They had huuuuge margins of victory (32,35,25,26,42,59,28,28,38,26).

Would those big margins inflate their KenPom ranking? Bueller?

Oh, definitely. For example, KenPom predicted them to beat Depaul by 21 on Jan 26th and they won by 38. The single biggest factor in their extremely high KenPom rating was likely their 28 point road win over Georgetown on Jan 8th when they were predicted to win by 3. That win moved them from 11 to 7 in the rankings and they never dropped below 9th for the rest of the season despite going 11-5 in their last 16 games

[Tucknut]

Watching Gonzaga.... If they're the best team in the country, then I'm a French model.

[Indoor66]

Watching Gonzaga.... If they're the best team in the country, then I'm a French model.

Bonjour.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I just caught the last five minutes of that Southern/Zags game and if that's the way officials are going to call the tournament games I want my bracket back so I can pick Creighton.

No blood, no foul is not basketball. Call the fouls!

[uh_no]

I just caught the last five minutes of that Southern/Zags game and if that's the way officials are going to call the tournament games I want my bracket back so I can pick Creighton.

No blood, no foul is not basketball. Call the fouls!

I thought the officials weren't great, but I didn't think it was overly physical, less the huge blown call with like 33 seconds left when the southern guy driving got destroyed

[howardlander]

I just caught the last five minutes of that Southern/Zags game and if that's the way officials are going to call the tournament games I want my bracket back so I can pick Creighton.

No blood, no foul is not basketball. Call the fouls!

Yeah, I was watching Olynk (sp?) and all I could think of is how many offensive fouls Mason would have had called on him. He was really physical. much more so than ACC refs allow.

Howard

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I thought the officials weren't great, but I didn't think it was overly physical, less the huge blown call with like 33 seconds left when the southern guy driving got destroyed

Again, I only saw the last five minutes, but there were several obvious hacks both ways that didn't get called...

[Bluedog]

Again, I only saw the last five minutes, but there were several obvious hacks both ways that didn't get called...

TV Teddy Valentine was the lead official. Is that surprising? Even when Indiana was intentionally fouling at the end of the game and hacking guys' arms vs. Ohio State, Teddy wasn't calling the foul. He likes it physical - hence why having him when we played Butler in 2010 wasn't very fortunate for us.

[sporthenry]

TV Teddy Valentine was the lead official. Is that surprising? Even when Indiana was intentionally fouling at the end of the game and hacking guys' arms vs. Ohio State, Teddy wasn't calling the foul. He likes it physical - hence why having him when we played Butler in 2010 wasn't very fortunate for us.

Funny that the next game in the West, Arizona/Belmont has one of the most tightly officiated games. 19 fouls and the first half isn't over. For comparison, Michigan and South Dakota State had 6 combined during the first half.

But of course the game couldn't go by without Gottlieb getting his barb in. Said there had to be a record for block/charge calls and that somewhere a Duke player is getting jealous.

[77devil]

Th Shockers are now blowing out Pitt late in the second half. I expect Jamie Dixon to be named the new coach at USC in the near future. He's taken this program as far as he can.

Which isn't very far. Pitt is a perennial under performer in the tournament. Not sure Jamie can do much better at Southern Cal, but he's a native Californian and the weather's a lot better. If you are going to be mediocre, better to be in LA.

Oh, and Gotlieb takes a shot at Duke at every opportunity. Get a life.

[ice-9]

Pittsburgh still down to Wichita St in the 2nd half. Darn you kenpom!!! Though Pitt is an 8 seed, they are rated 8th in kenpom's ratings. I have them upsetting Gonzaga.

A great example of KenPom's limitations, and again why I think there has to be some kind of limit to margin of victory (per possession).

I wanted to take Wichita St but the KenPom ranking disparity caused me to switch to Pittsburgh. Ditto with Colorado St and Missouri, d'oh!

[sporthenry]

Harvard playing Harvard basketball. Could Tommy be laying his claim to a top coaching gig?

[subzero02]

Harvard playing Harvard basketball. Could Tommy be laying his claim to a top coaching gig?

I hope they can hold on... I parlayed them with VCU... Vcu -7.5... Harvard +10.5

[ns7]

A great example of KenPom's limitations, and again why I think there has to be some kind of limit to margin of victory (per possession).

I wanted to take Wichita St but the KenPom ranking disparity caused me to switch to Pittsburgh. Ditto with Colorado St and Missouri, d'oh!

I believe limiting MOV makes the ratings less predictive. He says he hasn't found a good way to do it yet.

I assume that Pitt was inconsistent this year and that the bad Pitt showed up. (I can't confirm since I don't have a subscription.) Also, it's not like Pitt was regularly being blown out--one poster mentioned earlier that they had lost by double digits only once before today.

The better team doesn't always win, and that's probably what happened today.

[uh_no]

I believe limiting MOV makes the ratings less predictive. He says he hasn't found a good way to do it yet.

I assume that Pitt was inconsistent this year and that the bad Pitt showed up. (I can't confirm since I don't have a subscription.) Also, it's not like Pitt was regularly being blown out--one poster mentioned earlier that they had lost by double digits only once before today.

The better team doesn't always win, and that's probably what happened today.

i'm sure that was by far their worst performance relative to kenpom expectations all year.

[theschwartz]

Interesting subplot to this great Harvard-New Mexico game (at least it was interesting to me). I didn't see or hear any commentary about it elsewhere. This has to be sort of a revenge game for Amaker. His last game in Duke Blue came in the 1987 Sweet 16 against the Steve Alford-led Hoosiers, who went on to win the title. I wonder if Amaker is thinking that in the back of his mind. Anyway, thought that was an awesome and highly under-rated subplot.

Here's a box score to that '87 game: http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/1987-03-20-duke.html

GO CRIMSON! GO DUKE!

[Mal]

Buh bye, Bucky. We'll look forward to your crimes against the sport again next year. In the meantime, enjoy the nice brick wall you put up today.

[Ben1029]

Buh bye, Bucky. We'll look forward to your crimes against the sport again next year. In the meantime, enjoy the nice brick wall you put up today.

More like an air wall. Did you see those threes they were jacking up at the end? They airballed a few.

[sporthenry]

Duke fans want to talk about early exits. Just look at Wisconsin. Haven't been to the F4 since 2000 and haven't been past the S16 since 2005. They aren't a blue blood per se, but they have seemingly been up there with everyone else.

[Mal]

Duke fans want to talk about early exits. Just look at Wisconsin. Haven't been to the F4 since 2000 and haven't been past the S16 since 2005. They aren't a blue blood per se, but they have seemingly been up there with everyone else.

And it was an absolute abomination that they made the one Final Four. Essentially, they're given too much credit for always making the tournament and winning a game or two - I think people think of them as Michigan State's little brother and conflate the resumes a little.

I begrudgingly do give them credit for consistently making the tournament and winning one or two games (obviously, other than today, that is), but I also despise that it's mostly testament to their commitment to playing the slowest, most excruciating style possible, literally beating opponents not used to that style to within an inch of their life, while simultaneously shocking officials crews into submission. It ensures a win against lesser opponents who can't handle the physicality, and keeps the score tight enough against better teams that they'll have a tendency to get tight and choke because they're not used to playing with a razor thin margin one way or the other the entire ballgame; witness how many times a crucial three pointer toward the end of a game by the Badgers seems to panic their opponents. So, I guess it "works" in the sense of being successful, but it's brutally cynical and ugly and horrible to watch and against the spirit of Dr. Naismith's invention.

I note that the reason I have such a seemingly endless well of ill will toward Wisco is not solely the fault of Bo Ryan and the basketball team. It's the Wisconsin style in every sport: take the air out of the ball. Anyone here remember the 1995 men's soccer championship game? Me, too. Also, their hockey team is, perpetually, the same thing. Grind it out, do anything you can get away with to neutralize the skills and talent deficit and keep it to a one goal game, and hope for the best.

[Duvall]

Baffling how the Selection Committee thought it made sense to make New Mexico and Kansas State top 4 seeds in the same region. I guess a Gonzaga Final Four would make for good television.

[Mal]

Baffling how the Selection Committee thought it made sense to make New Mexico and Kansas State top 4 seeds in the same region. I guess a Gonzaga Final Four would make for good television.

I think the real beneficiary here is going to be Ohio State. A 2 seed placed with the weakest 1 seed, and 3-5 don't win a single game. It's Day 2, and already, even if the seeds hold from here, their toughest opponent on the way to the Final Four looks like it might be Notre Dame.

[Ben1029]

K-State is making a huge run.

[Mal]

Looks like Duvall and I may have spoken a bit soon re: K State. Still think this region is historically weak, however.

[hurleyfor3]

The infamous 12-versus-13 matchup rears its ugly head!

[78Devil]

Wow. The 3, 4 & 5 seed in the West go down. Gonzaga still probably won't go through, but at this rate, their chances are looking better than they will. What a miscarriage....

[pfrduke]

Is it too late to pick Harvard to the Final Four out of this region?

[FerryFor50]

I re-emphasize my claim about how weak this bracket was. An absolute joke.

[BlueandWhite]

I re-emphasize my claim about how weak this bracket was. An absolute joke.

You're absolutely correct, a big notch below any of the three....OSU is clearly the superior team, once Wichita State knocks off Gonzaga they will walk to the Final Four.

[dukelifer]

Notre Dame is struggling tonight.

[brevity]

I think the real beneficiary here is going to be Ohio State. A 2 seed placed with the weakest 1 seed, and 3-5 don't win a single game. It's Day 2, and already, even if the seeds hold from here, their toughest opponent on the way to the Final Four looks like it might be Notre Dame.

You were saying? I don't envy the announcers who have to say "Iowa State" and "Ohio State" without confusing the two.

To all of you: please do yourselves a favor and remember this part of the bracket for the future. Because this happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The Selection Committee, with zero interest in balancing out the power, creates a Schwarzenegger and a DeVito and passes them off as equals. We get mad every year, because DeVito is so easy (challenging our sense of fairness) and yet so unpredictable (destroying our own brackets). Then we forget about it and ask the Selection Committee to do it again next year.

[davekay1971]

Shockers are hanging in, but Gonzaga making the big shots to keep ahead. Wow, another good one!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Wow. A few questionable no calls there helping Wichita get back in it.

[moonpie23]

i think you mean NON- CALLS.......wow.....

[sporthenry]

Wow. A few questionable no calls there helping Wichita get back in it.

Well I was watching more of the Butler game so I'm not sure how they got their fouls but it is a 20-12 foul differential and 23-8 on the line. So I'm sure Wichita State probably had a few questionable calls go against them.

[dukelifer]

Wow. A few questionable no calls there helping Wichita get back in it.

It's a game now. Finally some good games.

[ChrisP]

i think you mean NON- CALLS.......wow.....

Yeah, I thought Olynyk clearly got fouled a minute ago and then the Witch St player appeared to walk (the old up & down) and neither was called. I love an upset as much as the next guy, but I think the Zags are getting hosed here lately.

[dukelifer]

Yeah, I thought Olynyk clearly got fouled a minute ago and then the Witch St player appeared to walk (the old up & down) and neither was called. I love an upset as much as the next guy, but I think the Zags are getting hosed here lately.

Wichita State going unconscious from three.

[OldPhiKap]

Wichita State going unconscious from three.

That last shot with a bit over a minute twenty or so was redonkulous.

[ChrisP]

That last shot with a bit over a minute twenty or so was redonkulous.

True. Gotta give W St. credit, but I REALLY dislike this idea of "letting the players decide it" at the end. If it's a foul in the first minute of the game, it's still a foul in the last minute! Dangit!!! :mad:

[dukelifer]

Free throw shooting contest
Zags are killing them on the boards

[OldPhiKap]

Zags are killing them on the boards

Big Zag misses down the stretch from the line

[moonpie23]

zags in serious trouble...

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Disappointing loss. I was hoping the zags would prove everyone wrong.

Also, I hope they send gottlieb packing after his performance tonight as well.

[Duvall]

I can only assume that the Selection Committee delegated the seeding of the West Regional to their representative from Louisiana State University.

[OldPhiKap]

I can only assume that the Selection Committee delegated the seeding of the West Regional to their representative from Louisiana State University.

Damn, wish we were #2 in the West.

[dukelifer]

Disappointing loss. I was hoping the zags would prove everyone wrong.

Also, I hope they send gottlieb packing after his performance tonight as well.

Huge comeback by Wichita State. Just could not miss from three down the stretch. Zags had a great season but the post season is different.

[DukieInKansas]

Wichita State Pulls Off the Shocker!


Thought I'd write the headlines for the papers.

[OldPhiKap]

Great to see the coach so excited, and then hugging his kids. Wow.

[1 24 90]

I sure hope that the Missouri Valley has used up its fair share of upsets for this weekend.

So glad the tourney committee gave Gonzaga a 1 seed instead of Miami or Duke. Great job. :p

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Disappointing loss. I was hoping the zags would prove everyone wrong.

Also, I hope they send gottlieb packing after his performance tonight as well.

To me, this proves how the committee seriously screwed up seedings this year.

Gonzaga had no business being a #1 seed.

Oregon had no business being a #12 seed.

The MW and South Regions are ridiculous when compared with the West.

It seems the Committee spent vast amounts of time getting the correct teams into the field but then got lazy and just threw the placements together at the last second.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Miami or Duke should have been #1 in this region, geography be damned...but I guess that's a topic for last week. It's hard not to put a 30-2 team in a #1 slot when everyone else has 5-6 losses, but I wonder if this might affect Gonzaga's seeding in the future, should a similar situation arise.

[Blue KevIL]

With the loss, Gonzaga still has not replicated its 1999 Cinderella Run to the Elite Eight.

Four Sweet 16's, seven Round of 32's, and three Round of 64's.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Damn, wish we were #2 in the West.

Well, then we'd be looking at playing Az in L.A. this Thursday. I'm not so sure I'd like that. Of course, the Elite 8 game wouldn't be too bad.

[brevity]

Wichita State Pulls Off the Shocker!


Thought I'd write the headlines for the papers.

Ah, they'll just go with GONE-ZAGA.

Too bad. I never got to contribute to a mature discussion of Kelly Olynyk by saying, "Snoochie boochies! Where's Silent Bob?"

[Blue KevIL]

And now...

One of these teams will be in the Elite 8 with a shot at the Final Four: #9 Wichita State, #12 Mississippi, or #13 La Salle.

It would only be fitting for this Region if #10 Iowa State knocks off #2 Ohio State.

[uh_no]

And now...

One of these teams will be in the Elite 8 with a shot at the Final Four: #9 Wichita State, #12 Mississippi, or #13 La Salle.

It would only be fitting for this Region if #10 Iowa State knocks off #2 Ohio State.

can we still take the #8 overall seed instead of #6?

[Mudge]

Gone-Zaga gone, alright... who didn't see this coming, except everybody from the NCAA trying to defend their indefensible seeding selections... Jay Bilas' criticism is spot on. Anybody with any sense of past history, as well as a reasonable grasp of the obvious from this season could have predicted the early departure of Gonzaga, New Mexico, UCLA, and NC State to lower seeded teams-- all of these teams were obviously overseeded, the moment the brackets were released on Sunday.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

And now...

One of these teams will be in the Elite 8 with a shot at the Final Four: #9 Wichita State, #12 Mississippi, or #13 La Salle.

It would only be fitting for this Region if #10 Iowa State knocks off #2 Ohio State.

...And looking down the road, if Ohio St. were to lose tomorrow or in the regionals, it would set-up quite nicely for the winner of the MW region to make the Final.

[sporthenry]

With Gonzaga losing, it also gives another data point to a top seeded team who struggles in their first game. Some seem to think it will get the nerves out but it appears more, not blowing away bad teams is a bad sign for future tournament performance.

[uh_no]

...And looking down the road, if Ohio St. were to lose tomorrow or in the regionals, it would set-up quite nicely for the winner of the MW region to make the Final.

but seeing as how the big 10 has done as a conference in the tournament, it seems we should be relatively confident that they're a friggin good team.

[howardlander]

Miami or Duke should have been #1 in this region, geography be damned...but I guess that's a topic for last week. It's hard not to put a 30-2 team in a #1 slot when everyone else has 5-6 losses, but I wonder if this might affect Gonzaga's seeding in the future, should a similar situation arise.

Yes, Gonzaga was 30 - 2, but who did they beat? You have to wonder what UNC or even Maryland or Virginia would have done with their schedule. A quick look at their results (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs) shows that they did manage to beat Clemson, Davidson and Kansas State but frankly I think Carolina goes 29 and 3 or better against their schedule. And thats says nothing about how Duke or Miami would have done. Undefeated maybe? Who knows...

Anyway, sometimes you get lucky. And this time it's Ohio State.

Howard

[uh_no]

Yes, Gonzaga was 30 - 2, but who did they beat? You have to wonder what UNC or even Maryland or Virginia would have done with their schedule. A quick look at their results (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs) shows that they did manage to beat Clemson, Davidson and Kansas State but frankly I think Carolina goes 29 and 3 or better against their schedule. And thats says nothing about how Duke or Miami would have done. Undefeated maybe? Who knows...

Anyway, sometimes you get lucky. And this time it's Ohio State.

Howard

duke goes undefeated with that schedule....even if you take out kelly for their conference matchups....its like riding the dumbo ride vs space mountain.

[sporthenry]

Yes, Gonzaga was 30 - 2, but who did they beat? You have to wonder what UNC or even Maryland or Virginia would have done with their schedule. A quick look at their results (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs) shows that they did manage to beat Clemson, Davidson and Kansas State but frankly I think Carolina goes 29 and 3 or better against their schedule. And thats says nothing about how Duke or Miami would have done. Undefeated maybe? Who knows...

Anyway, sometimes you get lucky. And this time it's Ohio State.

Howard

Yeah, their schedule wasn't very good. They beat who they were supposed to but as Bilas said, all they've shown is an ability to lose to good teams. Sure, teams like St. Mary's are better than Maryland who Duke lost to twice. But that was Gonzaga's equivalent of a UNC game. Imagine Duke following up a UNC game with a nice trip to Pepperdine or Seattle instead of Maryland.

[roywhite]

Gone-Zaga gone, alright... who didn't see this coming, except everybody from the NCAA trying to defend their indefensible seeding selections... Jay Bilas' criticism is spot on. Anybody with any sense of past history, as well as a reasonable grasp of the obvious from this season could have predicted the early departure of Gonzaga, New Mexico, UCLA, and NC State to lower seeded teams-- all of these teams were obviously overseeded, the moment the brackets were released on Sunday.

Gonzaga did not fool those savvy DBR posters who gave them less than 10% of the votes in the poll for likely regional winner.

Let's hope the DBR voters were just as smart in picking Duke to win the Midwest. :)

[roywhite]

Yeah, their schedule wasn't very good. They beat who they were supposed to but as Bilas said, all they've shown is an ability to lose to good teams. Sure, teams like St. Mary's are better than Maryland who Duke lost to twice. But that was Gonzaga's equivalent of a UNC game. Imagine Duke following up a UNC game with a nice trip to Pepperdine or Seattle instead of Maryland.

Hmmm....where would I like to visit...maybe Malibu or Seattle?....or College Park, MD?
Oh, you mean for basketball?

[freshmanjs]

Damn, wish we were #2 in the West.

if we had lost our game with OSU in November, good chance we would have been. funny how things work out.

[uh_no]

if we had lost our game with OSU in November, good chance we would have been. funny how things work out.

yeah, but then we'd all be complaining about how we got disrespected and shipped out west :)

[luburch]

I was really rooting for Gonzaga. So many people hating on them for getting the number one seed, and I really like Mark Few. It's a shame they couldn't pull it off.

As for the argument that they didn't play anyone, although their schedule wasn't great they did manage to beat Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Davidson, St. Mary's (all tournament teams), and Baylor and Clemson. They had more top 150 wins than any other school if I remember correctly. And their only two losses were to Illinois and Butler, who both beat Indiana as well.

Wish they could have pulled it off.

[howardlander]

Yeah, their schedule wasn't very good. They beat who they were supposed to but as Bilas said, all they've shown is an ability to lose to good teams. Sure, teams like St. Mary's are better than Maryland who Duke lost to twice. But that was Gonzaga's equivalent of a UNC game. Imagine Duke following up a UNC game with a nice trip to Pepperdine or Seattle instead of Maryland.

I haven't watched either team that much, but I have a feeling the Maryland team that beat Duke twice would have beaten any effort St Mary's could make. The problem Maryland had was they couldn't play nearly that well against anyone else or on the road!

Howard

[Wander]

I guess Duke must not have deserved a 2 seed last year, or a 1 seed in the year before that? Let's just be completely clear that tournament results can't be used as an argument for bad seeding or selection, which are by definition based on what happens in the regular season.

[uh_no]

I was really rooting for Gonzaga. So many people hating on them for getting the number one seed, and I really like Mark Few. It's a shame they couldn't pull it off.

As for the argument that they didn't play anyone, although their schedule wasn't great they did manage to beat Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Davidson, St. Mary's (all tournament teams), and Baylor and Clemson. They had more top 150 wins than any other school if I remember correctly. And their only two losses were to Illinois and Butler, who both beat Indiana as well.

Wish they could have pulled it off.

I was rooting hard against them, and I like mark few.

he problem is everyone KNEW they weren't one of the top 4 teams in the country, not even close...and had they succeeded despite this (due to perhaps easy matchups....which ended up being there anyway), then the committee would likely continue to give these high seeds to undeserving teams....but after the performances of

st louis (upset by 12 seed)
gonzaga (upset by 9 seed....which, to be fair was another mid major, perhaps more appropriately seeded)
UNLV (upset by a 12 seed)
vcu (absolutely toasted by maryland)


the committee will think twice about giving these teams with such weak schedules high seeds.

of the 8 teams in the sweet 16 already, the only mid major came from a game between two mid majors.....

yes, often one off teams do well in the tournament (butler, george mason, VCU) but that doesn't mean they need to have these high seeds....and this year is certainly support of that


and in response to wander, no, you're right, individual results are poor indicators of overall worth....but what can be said is that when the highly seeded mid majors all stink it up, several of which got blown out by 15+, there might be an issue with seeding them so high on the whole.

[Wander]

st louis (upset by 12 seed)
gonzaga (upset by 9 seed....which, to be fair was another mid major, perhaps more appropriately seeded)
UNLV (upset by a 12 seed)
vcu (absolutely toasted by maryland)


the committee will think twice about giving these teams with such weak schedules high seeds.


And what about Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Wisconsin? Will this cause the committee to think twice about giving the Big 12, Big East, and Big 10 high seeds?

[howardlander]

I was really rooting for Gonzaga. So many people hating on them for getting the number one seed, and I really like Mark Few. It's a shame they couldn't pull it off.

As for the argument that they didn't play anyone, although their schedule wasn't great they did manage to beat Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Davidson, St. Mary's (all tournament teams), and Baylor and Clemson. They had more top 150 wins than any other school if I remember correctly. And their only two losses were to Illinois and Butler, who both beat Indiana as well.

Wish they could have pulled it off.

Well, personally I don't feel I was hating on them. But in order to be a number one seed I think you really should play and beat at least one top 10 team. Otherwise the committee is just making a guess at how good you are. Top 150 wins don't mean that much to me, as I suspect most of their top 150 wins were lower than 50. Since I didn't think St Mary's belonged in the tournament over UVA, I don't give them a lot of credit, thoughSt Mary's did do fairly well once they got in.

Quick question: how many games did Duke win against tournament teams? I count 11 including 3 and 1 against 1 and 2 seeds. Gonzaga had one top 25 RPI win. Duke was 9 and 2 against the top 50. Tell me again why Gonzaga deserved the 1 seed? Because they were consistent and beat a bunch of not particularly good teams? Really? Note, I'm not saying they sucked, or that they should have been a 5 or lower seed. 2 or 3, maybe 4 was the right place for them, and they proved it by barely beating a 16 team and losing to an 8.

Howard

[uh_no]

And what about Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Wisconsin? Will this cause the committee to think twice about giving the Big 12, Big East, and Big 10 high seeds?

lets look at each of the top 4 seeds performances and see how they've done

Majors performing to seed:
louisville
MSU
duke
OSU
miami
marquette
syracuse
indiana
florida
michigan
kansas

majors not performing to seed:
KSU
georgetown

mid majors not performing to seed
saint louis
gonzaga
new mexico

mid majors performing to seed
none

so...we had 3 mid majors that got a top 4 seed, and none of them have reached the sweet 16,

all of, kansas, florida, indiana, miami, ohio state, and duke could lose tomorrow, and the major conferences would STILL have a better % of getting their top 4 seed to the sweet 16...

0% of your top 4 seeds making the sweet 16 is pretty damning when your argument is that mid majors deserve the top 4 seeds

[flyingdutchdevil]

lets look at each of the top 4 seeds performances and see how they've done

Majors performing to seed:
louisville
MSU
duke
OSU
miami
marquette
syracuse
indiana
florida
michigan
kansas

majors not performing to seed:
KSU
georgetown

mid majors not performing to seed
saint louis
gonzaga
new mexico

mid majors performing to seed
none

so...we had 3 mid majors that got a top 4 seed, and none of them have reached the sweet 16,

all of, kansas, florida, indiana, miami, ohio state, and duke could lose tomorrow, and the major conferences would STILL have a better % of getting their top 4 seed to the sweet 16...

0% of your top 4 seeds making the sweet 16 is pretty damning when your argument is that mid majors deserve the top 4 seeds

I have to completely disagree. This is the NCAA tournament; upsets are supposed to happen. I am fine with the seeding, and I'm sure the NCAA is as well. They love the fact that teams get upset - it's what makes fans like us so interested in watching games.

[uh_no]

I have to completely disagree. This is the NCAA tournament; upsets are supposed to happen. I am fine with the seeding, and I'm sure the NCAA is as well. They love the fact that teams get upset - it's what makes fans like us so interested in watching games.

so are you suggesting that the NCAA would intentionally set up the bracket so as to encourage upsets? It isn't just the fact that those three teams lost, but the nature of their play as well...

new mexico lost to harvard who then got rofl-stomped by arizona (and there is no doubt in my mind that new mexico would have met the same fate)
gonzaga was nearly the first 1 seed to lose, and then lose in the second round
st louis gets crushed by a 12 seed

that's three data points....and none of them point towards the particular team deserving a top seed....does that mean no mid major ever deserves a top seed? of course not....but these particular teams were absolutely undeserving, and i hope the committee avoids rewarding gonzaga type teams from beating up atrocious schedules in the future.

[El_Diablo]

I was really rooting for Gonzaga. So many people hating on them for getting the number one seed, and I really like Mark Few. It's a shame they couldn't pull it off.

As for the argument that they didn't play anyone, although their schedule wasn't great they did manage to beat Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Davidson, St. Mary's (all tournament teams), and Baylor and Clemson. They had more top 150 wins than any other school if I remember correctly. And their only two losses were to Illinois and Butler, who both beat Indiana as well.

Wish they could have pulled it off.

Sorry, but you definitely do not remember correctly: Gonzaga had 14 top-150 wins. Duke, Louisville, Georgetown, Syracuse, Kansas, Michigan, MSU, OSU, Indiana, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, St. Louis, Miami, UNC, Notre Dame, UNLV, Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Memphis all had more top-150 wins. Maybe others too (I just clicked on the most obvious ones). Gonzaga had a bunch of sub-150 wins though, so maybe you just misread it? Also, if you look at all those teams you listed as good wins, you will find that a grand total of 0 advanced to the round of 32, so that regular-season body of work looks even more suspect at this point.

EDIT: There are several others that have the same number (14) of top-150 wins, but I left them out.

[marinbobbyduhon]

so are you suggesting that the NCAA would intentionally set up the bracket so as to encourage upsets? It isn't just the fact that those three teams lost, but the nature of their play as well...

new mexico lost to harvard who then got rofl-stomped by arizona (and there is no doubt in my mind that new mexico would have met the same fate)
gonzaga was nearly the first 1 seed to lose, and then lose in the second round
st louis gets crushed by a 12 seed

that's three data points....and none of them point towards the particular team deserving a top seed....does that mean no mid major ever deserves a top seed? of course not....but these particular teams were absolutely undeserving, and i hope the committee avoids rewarding gonzaga type teams from beating up atrocious schedules in the future.

Using the argument that St Louis got crushed by a 12 seed is disingenuous, in my opinion; as almost everyone has conceded that Oregon should have been seeded much higher than they were. I can't argue with the other two examples, but Oregon should have been a 6-8 seed, IMO. Count me in the group of people who think the Selection Committee has their own personal agenda, but I can't figure out what it is. They disrespected both the ACC and the PAC-12, making it difficult to blame an East Coast bias. I don't think that they set up brackets to get upsets, though.

Again, I can't for the life of me figure out what they are trying to achieve with these brackets, but they do a very poor job of the seeding. The Women's brackets are even worse. I almost feel like UConn has the Selection Committee in their back pockets. I think that both Duke and Notre Dame got shafted this year, but that's nothing new really.

[Blue KevIL]

From ESPN:

"The Zags are the 10th team to go undefeated in conference play, win their conference tournament and receive a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament.
None of the previous nine teams to do so won the national title...
Each of these nine teams did reach the Elite Eight, and four of them fell in the national championship game."

'12-13 Gonzaga - Round of 32
'07-08 Memphis - Runner-Up
'02-03 Kentucky - Elite Eight
'98-99 Duke - Runner-Up
'90-91 UNLV - Final Four
'87-88 Temple - Elite Eight
'86-87 UNLV - Final Four
'82-83 Houston - Runner-Up
'82-83 Louisville - Final Four
'78-79 Indiana State - Runner-Up

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/tcmen13trends/2013-men-ncaa-tournament-bracket-trends-consider-making-picks-field-68

[FerryFor50]

If you were shocked by gonzaga's loss, then you've had your head in the sand. While I picked them to go further (like 1-2 more rounds), I also knew there was a very good chance they wouldn't make it out of the first weekend.

But to be fair, Wichita St did go 3 pt crazy on them. Zags outplayed them otherwise. Just didn't shoot as well as Wichita.

[uh_no]

Using the argument that St Louis got crushed by a 12 seed is disingenuous, in my opinion; as almost everyone has conceded that Oregon should have been seeded much higher than they were. I can't argue with the other two examples, but Oregon should have been a 6-8 seed, IMO. Count me in the group of people who think the Selection Committee has their own personal agenda, but I can't figure out what it is. They disrespected both the ACC and the PAC-12, making it difficult to blame an East Coast bias. I don't think that they set up brackets to get upsets, though.

Again, I can't for the life of me figure out what they are trying to achieve with these brackets, but they do a very poor job of the seeding. The Women's brackets are even worse. I almost feel like UConn has the Selection Committee in their back pockets. I think that both Duke and Notre Dame got shafted this year, but that's nothing new really.

that's fair. I like to think they're just incompetent more than anything....but either way.

women's seeding is a bit strange, because of the sites...they try to do the pod thing like in mens ball, except to get crowds they end up being close to the top schools (storrs, cameron, wherever)....so they need to just cut to the chase and have the top 4 seeds host their own first 2 round games....i'm not sure there is any huge disparity in regions other than locations though....as uconn drew maryland, the top rated 4 seed, whereas ND drew SC, the third highly ranked 4, given this is based off the AP poll, which is hardly definitive, but i don't see any huge injustice there, as all those teams are about the same.

anyway, not to get off topic, I think the original discussion was whether people were cheering for gonzaga or not, and I feel like i don't want to see teams like gonzaga get high seeds, when you knew they were going to get upset from a mile away...i think it should rather go to someone like miami or duke, who have actually proven themselves on the court against top teams instead of the fighting snails....it bothers me that the committee rewards mid majors for playing weak schedules, and then punishes major teams for playing weak schedules.

[luburch]

Sorry, but you definitely do not remember correctly: Gonzaga had 14 top-150 wins. Duke, Louisville, Georgetown, Syracuse, Kansas, Michigan, MSU, OSU, Indiana, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, St. Louis, Miami, UNC, Notre Dame, UNLV, Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Memphis all had more top-150 wins. Maybe others too (I just clicked on the most obvious ones). Gonzaga had a bunch of sub-150 wins though, so maybe you just misread it? Also, if you look at all those teams you listed as good wins, you will find that a grand total of 0 advanced to the round of 32, so that regular-season body of work looks even more suspect at this point.

EDIT: There are several others that have the same number (14) of top-150 wins, but I left them out.

My apologies, I thought I remembered reading that on ESPN somewhere and I was too lazy to check for myself at the time.

[sporthenry]

If you were shocked by gonzaga's loss, then you've had your head in the sand. While I picked them to go further (like 1-2 more rounds), I also knew there was a very good chance they wouldn't make it out of the first weekend.

But to be fair, Wichita St did go 3 pt crazy on them. Zags outplayed them otherwise. Just didn't shoot as well as Wichita.

I'm not sure anyone should be shocked by any results lately. I guess the biggest thing that Kenpom has done for myself and just in general is that it shows how close teams are and from a probabilistic standpoint, that anything could happen. So while it isn't surprising that Gonzaga lost in the first weekend as Kenpom only had them at about 60% of getting to the S16, they were still the favorites from the West to make the F4.

I guess in short my point is that even with Gonzaga being overrated, it wouldn't be surprising to see them in the F4 either. Although I will say that when I started looking at the NCAAT more from a probabilistic standpoint and noting it was just 1 iteration, it took some of the enjoyment out of filling out a bracket b/c even if I make a great bracket, sometimes the other team hits 5 3's and there isn't much you can do about it.

[-bdbd]

Sure would have been nice for the top #2 team to have landed in the same region as the last place #1. Imagine how thing might look for Duke right now if we'd been placed, using an S-curve, in the same Western region?? No more #1, or #4 to deal with... Instead, we're in a place where ALL of the top seeds remain.

I realize that a lot is simply "upsets happen," but the NCAA at-large really MUST be evaluating the work done by this committee and the large number of early supposed upsets, and evaluating the committee's work fairly unfavorably. NM as a #3? Gone. Zags as a #1? Gone. Oregon as a #12? Still there! This has to be one of the more "upset-prone" tournaments in a while.

I am still so mad at the incredible imbalance - which was both obvious and easily prevented - between regions. No excuse. :mad:

[sporthenry]

Sure would have been nice for the top #2 team to have landed in the same region as the last place #1. Imagine how thing might look for Duke right now if we'd been placed, using an S-curve, in the same Western region?? No more #1, or #4 to deal with... Instead, we're in a place where ALL of the top seeds remain.

I realize that a lot is simply "upsets happen," but the NCAA at-large really MUST be evaluating the work done by this committee and the large number of early supposed upsets, and evaluating the committee's work fairly unfavorably. NM as a #3? Gone. Zags as a #1? Gone. Oregon as a #12? Still there! This has to be one of the more "upset-prone" tournaments in a while.

I am still so mad at the incredible imbalance - which was both obvious and easily prevented - between regions. No excuse. :mad:

I highly doubt this tournament is any more upset prone than most from a statistics standpoint and even if that was the case, I think it could be easily explained by the parity that seems to exist in today's game. Just looking at last year, you had 2 15 seeds win. A 12-13 match up and an 11 seed in the S16. 2011 had another 12/13 match up along with an 8, 10 and 2 11's in the S16.

And I'm not sure how much the committee actually looks at the tournament happenings to judge their job b/c it is just 1 trial. And on top of that, it is just about match ups.

I do agree that Oregon was under-seeded but people are going a bit over the top with that. Gottlieb tried to argue today that somehow the committee screwed St. Louis by making Oregon a 12 seed. When in reality, Oregon wouldn't have been a 5 seed so even if you consider Oregon a 6 or 8 seed, that is still an easier team than the 5 that St. Louis would have faced normally and that is ignoring the fact that Oregon was a terrible match up for St. Louis.

I do agree that we should look at some things such as how the MWC had the #1 or #2 RPI conference and has 1 team left. They completely gamed the system by playing D2 and NAIA teams instead of bad D1 teams who would drag down their RPI. Now that is a major issue that should be addressed.

To a lesser extent, I agree that the committee needs to get away from the bad teams you lost to or even the bad or worse teams you beat and it should come down to the good teams you beat. But the committee wants the BCS teams to schedule better and when you look at UVA's schedule, I can't blame them completely but the only problem is that often times mid majors don't live up to potential. ODU was picked 4th preseason, they finished last. So now you are asking coaches to schedule and know more about the teams they schedule than their own conference knows. I just disagree that the onus should be on the BCS teams especially when they play a stronger conference schedule.

[TheItinerantSon]

Gonzaga got beat by a team that went 14/27 from three despite being the 223rd ranked 3pt fg% team in the country. WSU shot 27% from 3 in march before this game. Even then gonzaga had a chance, the botched in bound after the free throw hurt a lot.

Sometimes its just not your day...we don't have to overinterpret a single game. Gonzaga has pretty good talent if NBA draft boards are any indication. I don't really perceive Ohio state as having 4 players as good as oleynik, Harris, pangos and bell. To me gonzagas lack of tourney results just illustrates how special and rare dukes success has been.

The good news is if we get past our regional there's a good chance of an easy first game in atlanta

[ice-9]

I highly doubt this tournament is any more upset prone than most from a statistics standpoint and even if that was the case, I think it could be easily explained by the parity that seems to exist in today's game. Just looking at last year, you had 2 15 seeds win. A 12-13 match up and an 11 seed in the S16. 2011 had another 12/13 match up along with an 8, 10 and 2 11's in the S16.

And I'm not sure how much the committee actually looks at the tournament happenings to judge their job b/c it is just 1 trial. And on top of that, it is just about match ups.


I agree that this bracket may not be necessarily more upset prone than other years, but what feels different is how *predictably* upset prone the West regional has been - even compared to other years. Maybe I'm just lucky with my predictions this year, but how surprised are we that Gonzaga is the first 1-seed to lose? I've been saying all along that New Mexico and Kansas State are overrated. Perhaps the only eyebrow raising result is Ole Miss over Wisconsin.

When this regional was announced, it felt like the consensus was "a lot of upsets are going to happen here."

Contrast that with the Midwest regional. How many people have Louisville winning it? Pretty much everyone (impartial). And if not Louisville, then probably Michigan State.

My point is that the West regional was perceived as weak at the top, and unusually so. I agree with the sentiment that it's likely because the committee overvalued teams that avoided bad losses by playing a weaker schedule.

[Buckeye Devil]

Gonzaga got beat by a team that went 14/27 from three despite being the 223rd ranked 3pt fg% team in the country. WSU shot 27% from 3 in march before this game. Even then gonzaga had a chance, the botched in bound after the free throw hurt a lot.

Sometimes its just not your day...we don't have to overinterpret a single game. Gonzaga has pretty good talent if NBA draft boards are any indication. I don't really perceive Ohio state as having 4 players as good as oleynik, Harris, pangos and bell. To me gonzagas lack of tourney results just illustrates how special and rare dukes success has been.

The good news is if we get past our regional there's a good chance of an easy first game in atlanta

IF Duke makes it out of the regional then they have a good chance of playing either Ohio State or Arizona. Assuming Ohio State meets Arizona in the semis, I would expect the winner of that game to go to the Final 4. I think Iowa St presents more of a challenge than many expect for the Buckeyes. If OSU struggles offensively as they had the tendency to do the first half of the season, they will not get out of the West region. But if they play the way they have over the past 9 games they would be very hard for the Devils-a lot harder than they were in November. If that repeat matchup would occur, it would not be an easy game for Duke.

[dukelifer]

IF Duke makes it out of the regional then they have a good chance of playing either Ohio State or Arizona. Assuming Ohio State meets Arizona in the semis, I would expect the winner of that game to go to the Final 4. I think Iowa St presents more of a challenge than many expect for the Buckeyes. If OSU struggles offensively as they had the tendency to do the first half of the season, they will not get out of the West region. But if they play the way they have over the past 9 games they would be very hard for the Devils-a lot harder than they were in November. If that repeat matchup would occur, it would not be an easy game for Duke.

Duke has no easy games left. If they win tomorrow as the game will go past midnight they will have a tough road ahead.

[flyingdutchdevil]

so are you suggesting that the NCAA would intentionally set up the bracket so as to encourage upsets? It isn't just the fact that those three teams lost, but the nature of their play as well...

new mexico lost to harvard who then got rofl-stomped by arizona (and there is no doubt in my mind that new mexico would have met the same fate)
gonzaga was nearly the first 1 seed to lose, and then lose in the second round
st louis gets crushed by a 12 seed

that's three data points....and none of them point towards the particular team deserving a top seed....does that mean no mid major ever deserves a top seed? of course not....but these particular teams were absolutely undeserving, and i hope the committee avoids rewarding gonzaga type teams from beating up atrocious schedules in the future.

No, but complaining about a few teams losing to lower seeds and then concluding that they are over seeding is a pointless argument. If Duke loses to Creighton today (I hope not), should Duke have been seeded lower? Our body of work may have been impressive, but our tournament record (0-1) was atrocious. Isn't that one metric (upon dozens, if not hundreds, of metrics) that the committee selects on? Gonzaga was completely deserving of a 1-seed. As many posters already established, the Zags had more 150-RPI wins than any other program. Is that not deserving?

[El_Diablo]

Sure would have been nice for the top #2 team to have landed in the same region as the last place #1. Imagine how thing might look for Duke right now if we'd been placed, using an S-curve, in the same Western region?? No more #1, or #4 to deal with... Instead, we're in a place where ALL of the top seeds remain.

Duke is not the #5 overall seed--Miami is. So a pure s-curve would have put us in Indiana's bracket. And Indiana's bracket is actually more chalk-heavy than ours at the moment (with their #3 and #4 four already in the Sweet Sixteen). Meanwhile, we have had a #12 advance in our region, which is definitely not one of the top seeds.

[El_Diablo]

No, but complaining about a few teams losing to lower seeds and then concluding that they are over seeding is a pointless argument. If Duke loses to Creighton today (I hope not), should Duke have been seeded lower? Our body of work may have been impressive, but our tournament record (0-1) was atrocious. Isn't that one metric (upon dozens, if not hundreds, of metrics) that the committee selects on? Gonzaga was completely deserving of a 1-seed. As many posters already established, the Zags had more 150-RPI wins than any other program. Is that not deserving?

No, Gonzaga was not even in the top 20 for top-150 wins. At least three 6-seeds, two 7-seeds, and one 8-seed had more top-150 wins than Gonzaga did.

[Wander]

I realize that a lot is simply "upsets happen," but the NCAA at-large really MUST be evaluating the work done by this committee and the large number of early supposed upsets, and evaluating the committee's work fairly unfavorably.

I promise you they are not. Oregon as a 12 seed was really the only out-there thing the selection committee did this tournament. There was no argument whatsoever to give New Mexico lower than a 3 seed... there was perhaps an argument to give Miami or Duke the 1 seed over Gonzaga, but that's completely debatable that reasonable people can come to different conclusions over, and it was absolutely impossible to put Gonzaga lower than a 2 seed.

All this tournament proves is that all high seeds can be upset - both high seeds from BCS conferences and high seeds from non-BCS conferences are prone to it. FFS, a 1 seed loses to an 8/9 just about every other year. It's hardly anything new.

[Bluedog]

Duke is not the #5 overall seed--Miami is. So a pure s-curve would have put us in Indiana's bracket. And Indiana's bracket is actually more chalk-heavy than ours at the moment (with their #3 and #4 four already in the Sweet Sixteen). Meanwhile, we have had a #12 advance in our region, which is definitely not one of the top seeds.

Would you rather have MSU or Marquette as your three? Marquette is the weakest three according to the committee. Having Oregon win as a twelve probably won't affect the bottom half of the Midwest either. Having said all that, there's sometimes some luck involved in how the draws turn out and the committee can't be perfect. Everybody has to win six games in a row to win this thing no matter where they are placed. Kansas as the #2 overall didn't get an easy path at all. Neither did Duke as the second #2, but thems the breaks sometimes. Just got to take care of business on the court.

[El_Diablo]

Would you rather have MSU or Marquette as your three? Marquette is the weakest three according to the committee. Having Oregon win as a twelve probably won't affect the bottom half of the Midwest either. Having said all that, there's sometimes some luck involved in how the draws turn out and the committee can't be perfect. Everybody has to win six games in a row to win this thing no matter where they are placed. Kansas as the #2 overall didn't get an easy path at all. Neither did Duke as the second #2, but thems the breaks sometimes. Just got to take care of business on the court.

Then Marquette actually got matched to the "right" #2 then. Again, we are not the top #2 seed. Miami is the top #2 seed. As the second #2 seed, we "should" get the second lowest #3 seed (which is MSU) had we actually been placed according to an s-curve.

[sammy3469]

One point that should be obvious from all this is if a group of teams "manipulates" the RPI then proceeds to have good wins against each other...the RPI isn't going to pick up on that(ie they aren't really good wins). It's not a coincidence that all these teams flamed out.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

So Ohio St. up 38-36 at the half. Iowa St. has missed a ton of point-blank shots or they'd be up right now.

I have Ohio State in the championship game but I'm rooting HARD for the Cyclones. The more upsets earlier today, the better I'll feel about us tonight.

[brevity]

I realize that a lot is simply "upsets happen," but the NCAA at-large really MUST be evaluating the work done by this committee and the large number of early supposed upsets, and evaluating the committee's work fairly unfavorably.


I promise you they are not. Oregon as a 12 seed was really the only out-there thing the selection committee did this tournament. There was no argument whatsoever to give New Mexico lower than a 3 seed... there was perhaps an argument to give Miami or Duke the 1 seed over Gonzaga, but that's completely debatable that reasonable people can come to different conclusions over, and it was absolutely impossible to put Gonzaga lower than a 2 seed.

All this tournament proves is that all high seeds can be upset - both high seeds from BCS conferences and high seeds from non-BCS conferences are prone to it. FFS, a 1 seed loses to an 8/9 just about every other year. It's hardly anything new.

I agree with Wander. As long as they include every automatic bid team and respect BYU's religious practices, the Selection Committee has zero accountability. They control a product called March Madness, where the only fear is a chalk outcome. High seeds lose? That's part of the madness! Upsets, generally, are good business -- so long as enough TV draws are still playing. Their incompetence can only be rewarded. They are fools with their hands on something foolproof.

As for New Mexico, I would argue further that they would have been a 2 seed had Ohio State lost the Big Ten tournament title to Wisconsin. The lazy Selection Committee would have just shuffled around the West to look something like this: (1) Gonzaga, (2) New Mexico, (3) Wisconsin, (4) Ohio State, (5) Kansas State.

[NashvilleDevil]

So Ohio St. up 38-36 at the half. Iowa St. has missed a ton of point-blank shots or they'd be up right now.

I have Ohio State in the championship game but I'm rooting HARD for the Cyclones. The more upsets earlier today, the better I'll feel about us tonight.

I think today's games go as expected. Lots of chaos first three days and today all the favorites win.

[El_Diablo]

Do OSU players ever NOT complain about a foul call?

[TNDukeFan]

Did anyone actually see anybody foul Craft on that drive?

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Do OSU players ever NOT complain about a foul call?

Yeah, even Tim Duncan says "get over it".

Meanwhile, Ohio St. will probably gut this one out but it's obvious the B1G teams are very dependent on style of officiating as they won't always get away with the junk they usually do in comference.

[uh_no]

well iowa state just got screwed by the block charge call with 90 seconds left....cost them the game....

and for those of you who are about to say "but his heel wasn't on the ground!!!"


A secondary
defender is considered to be in the restricted area when any part of either foot is in
or above this area.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Wow, who knew Tyler Zeller was playing for ISU today.

Call me crazy but I would have fouled Craft early and made him make both. Then, at worst you'd still have enough time to make a 3 to win.

[NashvilleDevil]

Did anyone actually see anybody foul Craft on that drive?

Karl Hess

[BlueDevilBrowns]

well iowa state just got screwed by the block charge call with 90 seconds left....cost them the game....

and for those of you who are about to say "but his heel wasn't on the ground!!!"

I can't believe Nantz and Kellog didn't know that(cough...cough).

If this was a Duke win, the controversy would be on level 11 over on ESPN.

[uh_no]

I can't believe Nantz and Kellog didn't know that(cough...cough).

If this was a Duke win, the controversy would be on level 11 over on ESPN.

kellog not knowing something hardly surprises me....i'd be shocked if he ever said anything remotely enlightening, in fact

[Indoor66]

kellog not knowing something hardly surprises me....i'd be shocked if he ever said anything remotely enlightening, in fact

He's out squeezing oranges.

[gus]

Wow, who knew Tyler Zeller was playing for ISU today.

Ha -- I was thinking the same thing. The shot sure looked familiar.




Call me crazy but I would have fouled Craft early and made him make both. Then, at worst you'd still have enough time to make a 3 to win.

You're crazy.

I can think of several scenarios that are worse than your "at worst". Here's one:

Craft makes the first, misses the second and Ohio state gets the rebound. Now up one, with the ball, and less than 35 seconds,Ohio State can hold the ball and ISU is forced to foul again.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Ha -- I was thinking the same thing. The shot sure looked familiar.





You're crazy.

I can think of several scenarios that are worse than your "at worst". Here's one:

Craft makes the first, misses the second and Ohio state gets the rebound. Now up one, with the ball, and less than 35 seconds,Ohio State can hold the ball and ISU is forced to foul again.

OK, so that means they're still down 3, which is what happened anyway. So how is that any worse?

[Udaman]

What a gutsy shot by Ohio State, matched equally by poor defense from Iowa State. After the screen, Iowa State had to switch on defense, and the bigger guy didn't get up on the shooter. I'm sure he was worried about him driving, but there were only 3 seconds left. It was obvious he was going to take a jumper because he didn't have time to do anything else. To let him basically have an uncontested three at that point, was just really unfortunate. Too bad.

Ohio State gets to the Final Four with ease now. What a joke of a region.

[Papa John]

Absolutely awful defense by Iowa State on the final shot... How can you possibly give a 6-foot cushion to the best Ohio State shooter on the floor, then back away from him as he takes a dribble to square up... I have the Buckeyes in the Final Four in my bracket, but was literally screaming through my television at Niang to get in Craft's face... Frosh will never make that mistake again...

[luburch]

Ohio State gets to the Final Four with ease now. What a joke of a region.

I wouldn't say with ease. I think Arizona/OSU will be a great game.

[77devil]

Chuck is a breath of fresh air. "Don't talk to me about that sissy elbow rule." And he almost always disagrees with Kenny Smith, which is nice.

[gus]

OK, so that means they're still down 3, which is what happened anyway. So how is that any worse?

Well sure, if they have the ability to go back in time and replay the last defensive stand, I'm sure they would approach it differently. But you're talking about making a decision without knowledge of future events.

In that context, Craft is a 42% shooter (29% from three) and an 80% free throw shooter. Without the ability to actually see the future or travel back in time a few seconds, I would go with the option that gives me a 58% chance of getting to overtime (or 71% if he's shooting a three), rather than an 80% chance of having to make an offensive play.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I didn't know what was more appalling in that final play. The set run by OSU (dribble the clock out, then launch an unneeded 3) or the fact that with 32 seconds to prep, ISU couldn't get a hand in his face.

Very strange last play. My heart went out to the ISU kids. What a blown bracket...

Go Duke!

[sporthenry]

I didn't know what was more appalling in that final play. The set run by OSU (dribble the clock out, then launch an unneeded 3) or the fact that with 32 seconds to prep, ISU couldn't get a hand in his face.

Very strange last play. My heart went out to the ISU kids. What a blown bracket...

Go Duke!

I think they ran a set for Thomas but it was defended very well and Craft looked like he wanted to take the shot regardless. But I will never understand end game defense. I know they were focusing on Thomas but why do defenders sag back. Just pressure him and you know if he beats you, he isn't going to the basket with 20 seconds left. Heck, I'd double him just so they actually have to make a few passes.

[TexHawk]

Absolutely awful defense by Iowa State on the final shot... How can you possibly give a 6-foot cushion to the best Ohio State shooter on the floor, then back away from him as he takes a dribble to square up... I have the Buckeyes in the Final Four in my bracket, but was literally screaming through my television at Niang to get in Craft's face... Frosh will never make that mistake again...

Whoa, that's hyperbole, yes? Craft is nowhere near OSU's best shooter. Statistically, for those that get the most minutes, he's the worst out of everyone. He also averages less than 2 threes attempted per game.

I have a hard time criticizing the cushion there. He's a big man who isn't used to defending out there.

[ice-9]

Whoa, that's hyperbole, yes? Craft is nowhere near OSU's best shooter. Statistically, for those that get the most minutes, he's the worst out of everyone. He also averages less than 2 threes attempted per game.

I have a hard time criticizing the cushion there. He's a big man who isn't used to defending out there.

Recalled images of Rivers on Zeller!

[Mudge]

Absolutely awful defense by Iowa State on the final shot... How can you possibly give a 6-foot cushion to the best Ohio State shooter on the floor, then back away from him as he takes a dribble to square up... I have the Buckeyes in the Final Four in my bracket, but was literally screaming through my television at Niang to get in Craft's face... Frosh will never make that mistake again...

Yeah, no-- Craft is nowhere near OSU's best shooter... as we saw when OSU played Duke... and as for the last shot-- yeah, a frosh mistake, kinda like Tyler Zeller on Austin Rivers-- oh, wait, Zeller was a senior... so, not so much.

[moonpie23]

if his foot wasn't on the floor, then he wasn't "set" and "established"........


BLOCKING FOUL........

[CLW]

Ohio St. in big trouble in the first half against Zona.

[El_Diablo]

Ohio St. in big trouble in the first half against Zona.

People should realize by now--this is the single most effective way to jinx something! :cool:

[NashvilleDevil]

People should realize by now--this is the single most effective way to jinx something! :cool:

Agreed. Being down double digits after 10 minutes of play is not when posts should be made.

Also how many lives does Ohio St have?

[captmojo]

Evidently, at least one more.
There's a lot less pressure on making that 3 to win when the score is tied. The comeback in the second half shows me their team experience makes them worthy of this win.

[pfrduke]

Evidently, at least one more.
There's a lot less pressure on making that 3 to win when the score is tied. The comeback in the second half shows me their team experience makes them worthy of this win.

Most of the comeback was in the first half - it was a 4-point game at halftime and then tOSU lead for most of the second half, by as many as 10, before Arizona came back down the stretch to tie it up.

[1 24 90]

I believe OSU may have the easiest path in the modern era to the final four based on seeding. They will have beaten a 15, 10, 6 and 9 seed to reach the final four. I don't recall any team having an easier path and so far it has taken 2 buzzer beaters to advance. Meanwhile, the Midwest regional could be its own Final Four.

[Ichabod Drain]

I believe OSU may have the easiest path in the modern era to the final four based on seeding. They will have beaten a 15, 10, 6 and 9 seed to reach the final four. I don't recall any team having an easier path and so far it has taken 2 buzzer beaters to advance. Meanwhile, the Midwest regional could be its own Final Four.

Wait you mean the path the NCAA deliberately laid out for Duke in 2010 wasn't the easiest path in the history of the tournament? ;)

[1 24 90]

I retract my previous statement - just a quick glance at previous brackets and of all teams 1999 Duke had an easier path seed wise:

16 - FAMU
9 - Tulsa
12 - SW Missouri St.
6 - Temple

Total =43

OSU's will only be 40 which is the same as St. John's back in 1985. They were my first favorite team - loved Chris Mullin.

[Newton_14]

Closing this thread. Please use the new Elite 8 thread for continuing discussion on the game and the West Region in general. Thanks