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wilson
03-14-2013, 02:56 PM
When I first read the above headline on the latest column from Pete Thamel of SI, I hated the idea, but by the end, I had to admit at the very least that he's made a very compelling case. The most salient quote: "Greensboro is certainly quaint, but this isn't a time in college sports for quaint."
He's certainly right about that. We can (continue to) debate whether or not the ACC is vulnerable to other conferences' poaching (I certainly believe it is), but he's absolutely correct that with a prime cherry there for the picking in light of the Big East's eminent demise (at least the Big East as we know it), the ACC should jump on it and pick that cherry. And while the "Big East" will of course continue to exist in evolved form, I highly doubt if MSG would remain loyal to that conference name affixed to the likes of the Catholic 7 over programs like Duke, unc, Syracuse, etc.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/#ixzz2NXeCeIN1

ForkFondler
03-14-2013, 03:02 PM
The ACC should rotate between MSG and Greensboro
The C7 should rotate between MSG and Chicago.
B1G should rotate between Chicago and Philadelphia

Duvall
03-14-2013, 03:04 PM
When I first read the above headline on the latest column from Pete Thamel of SI, I hated the idea, but by the end, I had to admit at the very least that he's made a very compelling case. The most salient quote: "Greensboro is certainly quaint, but this isn't a time in college sports for quaint."
He's certainly right about that. We can (continue to) debate whether or not the ACC is vulnerable to other conferences' poaching (I certainly believe it is), but he's absolutely correct that with a prime cherry there for the picking in light of the Big East's eminent demise (at least the Big East as we know it), the ACC should jump on it and pick that cherry. And while the "Big East" will of course continue to exist in evolved form, I highly doubt if MSG would remain loyal to that conference name affixed to the likes of the Catholic 7 over programs like Duke, unc, Syracuse, etc.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/#ixzz2NXeCeIN1

One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

Bluedog
03-14-2013, 03:05 PM
I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/07/catholic-big-east-expected-announce-agreement-own-conferences/zmUnooi9jD0Ts6GGHgYpCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9031167/catholic-7-leaving-big-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

davekay1971
03-14-2013, 03:08 PM
I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)

ForkFondler
03-14-2013, 03:09 PM
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

Sublease, every other year.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 03:14 PM
Except the new Big East has said it will be playing there. And the implication in the article is that Brooklyn, East Rutherford and other nearby venues won't suffice.

If it's so important to play there, why didn't doing so save the existing Big East? The NCAA Tournament hasn't been played in NYC in decades, either.

I do think it would be fun to try once. It's hard to imagine it being a worse experience than DC or Tampa. But the ACC thrives because the tournament's home is Greensboro, not despite of it.

CDu
03-14-2013, 03:16 PM
One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

This is far from a minor question (which I suspect was your point). I don't believe that MSG's capacity is greater than that of the arenas in Greesnboro, Charlotte, Atlanta, Tampa, and DC. The question is whether or not fans would travel to attend the games in NYC. Would the lure of Manhattan nightlife and/or watching in MSG be enough convince folks to travel well out of state in ways that they didn't do when the tourney was in Tampa? Maybe, maybe not.

And I don't think MSG would be a reason for increased TV revenue (folks will watch it or they won't, regardless of arenas). So the only reason to make such a move would be if you were confident that attendance would increase by making the move.

I feel like all of the arguments for moving to MSG would be that MSG is an awesome place to have a game. And that's true. But ultimately, "ambience" is a pretty minor factor. Money will be the ultimate key to the decision. If the ACC is convinced that moving to MSG will make them more money, then they'll do it. If not, they won't.

Monmouth77
03-14-2013, 03:16 PM
I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/07/catholic-big-east-expected-announce-agreement-own-conferences/zmUnooi9jD0Ts6GGHgYpCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9031167/catholic-7-leaving-big-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.

Class of '94
03-14-2013, 03:22 PM
The only reason I would want the ACC tournament to permanently be in MSG would be to block in further advancement of the BIG into the Northeast, midatlantic and Southeast. That said, the new Big East appears to have locked at MSG at least for the time being and I believe the A-10 has locked up the Barclay Center for their tournament; and I don't see the BIG putting on a tournement in the NYC area anytime soon.

wilson
03-14-2013, 03:24 PM
I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/07/catholic-big-east-expected-announce-agreement-own-conferences/zmUnooi9jD0Ts6GGHgYpCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9031167/catholic-7-leaving-big-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."Well, as I said above, I somehow think that if it came down to ACC bluebloods vs. the Seton Halls of the world, the ACC could work it out if they really wanted to.


One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?


I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)


This is far from a minor question (which I suspect was your point). I don't believe that MSG's capacity is greater than that of the arenas in Greesnboro, Charlotte, Atlanta, Tampa, and DC. The question is whether or not fans would travel to attend the games in NYC. Would the lure of Manhattan nightlife and/or watching in MSG be enough convince folks to travel well out of state in ways that they didn't do when the tourney was in Tampa? Maybe, maybe not.

And I don't think MSG would be a reason for increased TV revenue (folks will watch it or they won't, regardless of arenas). So the only reason to make such a move would be if you were confident that attendance would increase by making the move.

I feel like all of the arguments for moving to MSG would be that MSG is an awesome place to have a game. And that's true. But ultimately, "ambience" is a pretty minor factor. Money will be the ultimate key to the decision. If the ACC is convinced that moving to MSG will make them more money, then they'll do it. If not, they won't.His argument isn't centered upon the idea of making more money per se, but rather the broader (and admittedly more nebulous) notion of "exposure." Essentially, his contention is that the chance to play on that stage under those circumstances will continue to draw top-flight talent to a league that in some other ways, looks kind of vulnerable, and that the strength the programs enjoy will in turn enhance the conference's long-term stability.
The big hole in the argument, of course, is the fact that basketball ain't driving the ship at this point, so top-flight talent wanting to play in MSG doesn't make much difference. That counter is a valid one, and overall, I don't necessarily agree with Thamel (I certainly don't think the ACCT should move permanently); I just think he raises an interesting point and makes a fairly compelling case for his opinion.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 03:26 PM
Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere

No, it wasn't. DC sucked.

David
03-14-2013, 03:35 PM
One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

As much as we would all like to think basketball stirs the drink, conference realignment is about football, football, and oh year, football. Thus, I think Thamel is off in his article in suggesting that moving the ACC tournament to MSG would improve the long-term health of the ACC in regards to realignment. It might generate excitement and it might help to grow the ACC in the northeast, but to Thamel's point, it will not stave off poachers from other conferences.

-bdbd
03-14-2013, 03:45 PM
Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.

I am in DC area too and would, selfishly, like to see it more in the new "geographic center" of the conference. It seems to me the there are maybe 4-5 logical venues within the ACC footprint - NYC, DC, G'boro Atlanta and maybe Charlotte. I suspect that the ACC will continue to rotate it around some. But it is really hard to argue, given the size of the opportunity currently presented to us, not to jump at NYC at least some of the time in the near future. It is less about the crowds - MSG seats less than 25K I think anyway - and more about being at the media center of the universe, and somewhat about prestige as well. Given how money is such a huge driver, how can we not want that, and jump at it while the door is (temporarily) open??

Hypothetical: For those "traditionalists" among us, would you still prefer to stay in G'boro over the NYC's, DC's and Atlanta's of the world if it meant that it was going to cause the loss of 1-2 more ACC schools over the next 6 years? (YES, I realize that nothing is that simple/direct, but it makes the point that those are the sorts of implications that the ACC and Swofford are having to weigh.)

BTW, I think an ACCT in NYC would favor Duke, where we have a great alumni presence, over some other conference powers.

Concerning the comments about the Catholic/Big East already locking in the MSG locale for their tournament, doesn't MSG get a say in that? And I can't imagine, in any event, that is locked for much longer than the current ACCT location commitments either...

I like the idea of rotating between G'boro and NYC and DC and maybe Atlanta or Charlotte. At a minimum, having it in DC soon after MD's departure would piss off the Terp fans to no end. As far as the Big10 holding theirs in Philly -- NO WAY. It would be akin to the ACC hoating theirs in Miami or Boston, at the geographic extreme of the league's footprint. Big10 is a Midwest league and Chicago is their home (and Chicago is pretty damn big!). :D

Monmouth77
03-14-2013, 03:52 PM
No, it wasn't. DC sucked.

Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

That comment does not really advance a dialogue, which is interesting coming from a "moderator."

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 04:08 PM
Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29066-Future-ACC-Tourney-Home&p=591485#post591485

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 04:22 PM
Hypothetical: For those "traditionalists" among us, would you still prefer to stay in G'boro over the NYC's, DC's and Atlanta's of the world if it meant that it was going to cause the loss of 1-2 more ACC schools over the next 6 years? (YES, I realize that nothing is that simple/direct, but it makes the point that those are the sorts of implications that the ACC and Swofford are having to weigh.)

False choice. The ACC has been moving the thing around since the 1970s, and I accept good reasons exist to continue doing so.

I mentioned I'd be interested in a trial run in NYC, and I'd be intrigued to try it in Boston or Pittsburgh, two cities that haven't been mentioned yet. Not sure where you'd put it to accommodate Loovul. The Yum Center would already be home games for Loovul, Freedom Hall is probably too dated, and somewhere like Lexington... not going there. Literally.

But if a venue doesn't work, it doesn't work. The conference tried a multi-year run in Charlotte, and it came back to Greensboro. It tried the Cap Centre, the Omni, the Georgia Dome... really, it has little to do with tradition.

moonpie23
03-14-2013, 04:33 PM
i gotta go run some kids off my lawn, but, the Masters is still played in Augusta and the ACCT should ALWAYS be in G'boro.....

Blue in the Face
03-14-2013, 04:40 PM
Concerning the comments about the Catholic/Big East already locking in the MSG locale for their tournament, doesn't MSG get a say in that? And I can't imagine, in any event, that is locked for much longer than the current ACCT location commitments either...

The Big East signed a 10-year lease with MSG for the tournament this past fall, so that's quite a bit longer than the ACC's commtiment to Greensboro. I don't know to what extent there are outs for the MSG with the dissolution of the conference - I haven't seen anything in the reports that the Catholic 7 will get to have their conference in MSG next year which explicitly states that they've simply inherited that lease for the entire duration, but it's possible MSG is locked in and has no say. (Though if the future Big East wanted to work out a deal to sub-lease it to another conference for a year, I imagine a conference like the ACC would be perfectly acceptable to MSG).

sagegrouse
03-14-2013, 05:49 PM
Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.


No, it wasn't. DC sucked.


Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

That comment does not really advance a dialogue, which is interesting coming from a "moderator."

If you are comfortable with the DC Metro system, DC is a wonderful venue. If you leave (or approach) the arena there are 30-50 watering holes, restaurants and clubs within a ten-minute walk. If you leave G'bo between sessions and walk ten minutes, you are on some useless surface arterial with no amenities whatsoever. Sorry, Greensburrowers.]

So, if the problem is the DC Metro, get over it! It is a very good system and easily navigated (although watch out for closing time).

Similarly, in NY, Madison Square Garden is across the street from Union Station and the nexus of many different NY subway lines. Plus it is less than a one-mile walk from much of interest in Manhattan.

Now, both locations and especially NY are inconvenient to the ACC's traditional fan base. I guess Pete Hamel would say, "That's the ACC's problem." In fact, according to Al Featherston, over one-half of the members of the ACC sports media association are in NC. Does that sound like a conference of national signficance? Maybe it's time to put on a big-boy suit and go to the big city.

sagegrouse
'I got totally flamed the last time I made such comments'

ChillinDuke
03-14-2013, 06:01 PM
I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)

I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

wilson
03-14-2013, 06:13 PM
The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- ChillinGood post, and I think the above is the crux of Thamel's point.

weezie
03-14-2013, 06:35 PM
Well what a coinky dink...here I am in NYC unable for the first time in years to attend the tourney in Gboro or Charlotte ( which now stinks since it moved downtown) and I think a bit if variety can only work to ACC's advantage. Miami?! Heck yeah! Pburgh ehhhh only if h43 hosts a party.I'm willing to travel and so it's the Duke team. Didn't K break the wins milestone in the large Apple?

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 06:48 PM
But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.


not overly appealing in any meaningful way

Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.


and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players.

Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

throatybeard
03-14-2013, 06:55 PM
I don't understand how the tournament being at MSG really gets it more exposure. It's already on ESPN. Who does this benefit other than Syracuse alums? I seriously doubt random sports fans in New York City are going to go to MSG to watch Clemson-Florida State. You could hold it on the USS North Carolina and it would still be televised on ESPN.

Re: airports, by the way, it's perfectly easy to get to LGA from Manhattan for $2.50 on the Subway and the M60 bus. Took me about 50 minutes from Columbus Circle on Sunday. JFK is a little harder because of the added step of that weird little airtrain.

Duvall
03-14-2013, 06:56 PM
I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

With the tradition and success of the ACC's schools in basketball, there is no need to travel the world to get global. Regardless of where we play, the eyeballs of the world will come to us.

If holding the ACC Tournament in Madison Square Garden or anywhere else would mean more revenue for the conference, then that's definitely something that should be considered. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument - or an unconvincing argument - that this would be the case.

wilson
03-14-2013, 06:58 PM
Re: airports, by the way, it's perfectly easy to get to LGA from Manhattan for $2.50 on the Subway and the M60 bus. Took me about 50 minutes from Columbus Circle on Sunday. JFK is a little harder because of the added step of that weird little airtrain.I always do this too. The last time I was in NYC, I made it to LGA from Brooklyn in under an hour using only the Metro. I have no idea why people insist that you have to get a cab.

Tripping William
03-14-2013, 07:00 PM
Coach K (the GOAT) loves Greensboro almost as much as he loves Tyler Thornton. Shouldn't that effectively end the discussion? ;-)

sagegrouse
03-14-2013, 07:03 PM
Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?



I dunno Hurleyfor3, I either take the train or the $25 bus when I go to NY. Both put me right next to MSG.

sage

Bluedog
03-14-2013, 07:06 PM
Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.



Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.



Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

I'm sure Greensboro does a great place hosting the ACC tournament and it's a good experience for people coming in from out of town (I haven't been fortunate to attend yet...), but I think ChillinDuke's point is simply that for most people, when they come up with a trip idea for themselves or the family, the prospect of visiting NYC and watching Duke play at the same time is appealing. It's not that Greensboro is a bad place - simply that NYC is a more desirable tourist destination and has more things to do there. Nothing wrong with that. NYC attracts people from around the world in large numbers for a reason. I'd like to see some rotation of sites, but I think Greensboro has proven successful throughout history, so should get the tournament most of the years. And it's also convenient for a lot of fanbases and as throatybeard says, the games are on ESPN anyways, so not like MSG gives it that much more exposure for the casual fan.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 07:12 PM
OK, most of my recent trips to NYC were for business. (I'd like to see any of you take the bus when you're wearing a suit, carrying a rollaboard, and on your way to present to a $20 billion hedge fund manager.) Still, I'll race you, you do LGA to Penn, I'll do GSO to the Coliseum. Weezie, you get IAD to the Verizon Center.

No one disputed the overall unpleasantness of LGA and JFK, either. That says something. Oh, and I've never had any of the flight delays at GSO like I have at LGA. How's the bus gonna save you there?

throatybeard
03-14-2013, 07:15 PM
OK, most of my recent trips to NYC were for business. (I'd like to see any of you take the bus when you're wearing a suit, carrying a rollaboard, and on your way to present to a $20 billion hedge fund manager.)

I thought I was going to a basketball game in casual dress.

ChillinDuke
03-14-2013, 07:20 PM
Maybe a little over the top here, Hurley?


Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro?

Yes, twice.


Every airline flies there.

Are we really going to debate accessibility of Greensboro vs the other 6 cities I mentioned?


I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.

Fair enough.


Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.

That's all fine and good - and I don't disagree - but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that the majority of people who would consider attending a college basketball game would act on that thought in Greensboro. Again, my point is not that me or you wouldn't go to or don't like Greensboro. I quite enjoy having the ACCT there. But for the majority of people interested in attending a conference tournament basketball game, Greensboro is not going to do it for them. Heck, even I would be more likely to travel to Miami, Atlanta, Boston, or DC than I would to Gboro for an ACCT tourney game.

Why? Not the weather, not the hotel rates, not the cost, not getting around, not finding tickets, not because the folks are kind, nothing to do with hassle, nothing to do with Bloomberg and his sugary drinks - but because I have friends in those cities that I'd like to catch up with, see a game with; places I'd like to go while I'm in town; make a weekend of it.

Again - I (and I assume you) am not a representative human being to use against your metric because I love Duke basketball and would go through almost any length to see a game in person if I could manage it.

The vast majority of people are not like me. And so my feelings re: Gboro are not really relevant to my overall point.


Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

Come on now. No one is saying it's vital to have it at MSG. And no one is blaming the Big East's disintegration on not having enough games in NYC.

My point is that having the ACCT in bigger cities (along with Greensboro) and expanding the "eyeballs" on the ACC can't really be a bad thing. Can it?

I mean, if you're arguing for the ACCT to be in Gboro with the same amount of frequency it currently is, with all personal preferences aside, can you explain the business sense/going concern aspect of your view?


With the tradition and success of the ACC's schools in basketball, there is no need to travel the world to get global. Regardless of where we play, the eyeballs of the world will come to us.

If holding the ACC Tournament in Madison Square Garden or anywhere else would mean more revenue for the conference, then that's definitely something that should be considered. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument - or an unconvincing argument - that this would be the case.

To me, it's simple logic. Having the ACC tournament in more and different places increases the amount of potential people that may go to a game, grab a ticket with their girlfriend or boyfriend, see it on a billboard, etc. Which in turn can increase the likelihood someone may become a "fringe"/casual fan and flip on a game for a few minutes here or there. In turn, become a more avid fan, purchase an "ACC Network" package, have a kid that grows up a fan, etc etc. You get the point.

I have no hard facts on any of this. But to your point, if there is no need to get global and the eyeballs will come, why does the President travel all over the country when he's campaigning? Shouldn't everyone just cast their ballot based on TV at this point?

Again, my point is not you or me. It's majorities, possibilities, and all reasonable scenarios.

- Chillin

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 07:22 PM
I was trying to explain my frame of reference. If it weren't business I'd probably take one of the shuttle buses. Although every one I've taken, the drivers have hustled for tips. Welcome to New York.

throatybeard
03-14-2013, 07:30 PM
I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

ChillinDuke
03-14-2013, 07:46 PM
I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

Your seeming dislike of New Yorkers aside, it's as simple as this: The PAC-12 is on the west coast. I live on the east coast. I don't follow the PAC-12 because it's not relevant in my life, I can't watch the games due to location and timing, I have no horse in the race, and a variety of other reasons that you could probably infer from these.

The PAC-12 is highly unlikely to persuade me to put my eyeballs on them. Not with the status quo. Now if the PAC-12 expanded to the east coast, or had a game closeby, and a friend or my boss called me up offering tickets - you know what? I'd probably go. Maybe I'd even have a good time. Find a player I liked on ASU. Said player goes to the NBA - drafted by my favorite team. See how this goes? It's not crazy to dream up these scenarios. And they aren't outlandish scenarios. All of us can probably relate to these one-off experiences that drew us for or against a certain team, person, event, hobby.

How these things happen is largely through coincidence. And you don't get coincidence without an incidence. And you probably won't improve the likelihood of an incidence unless you change the status quo that has made the incidence not happen in the first place. Catch my drift?

I'm not trying to argue for or against places or cities or anything like that. It's just a view based on how I think things work. It's completely opinionated too - but, I think, reasonable.

And hey, MSG is brand spanking newly renovated from top to bottom. Chairs, concessions, stores, floors, walls, you name it. It's much nicer than it used to be. Give it a spin if you're in the area.

- Chillin

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 08:09 PM
Are we really going to debate accessibility of Greensboro vs the other 6 cities I mentioned?

I agree, I'm not sure why anyone thinks some other place besides Greensboro is easier to get to, from or around for the typical ACC basketball fan. Maybe Charlotte is close. You make it sound like trying to get to Yellowstone in the middle of January.


But for the majority of people interested in attending a conference tournament basketball game, Greensboro is not going to do it for them.

My experience is the exact opposite: for most tournament attendees I've encountered, Greensboro "does it" better than anywhere else. I don't go to to see art museums, or fancy restaurants, or clubs. There's no time! There's less that gets in the way at Greensboro, and that is its attraction.


Why? Not the weather, not the hotel rates, not the cost, not getting around, not finding tickets, not because the folks are kind, nothing to do with hassle, nothing to do with Bloomberg and his sugary drinks - but because I have friends in those cities that I'd like to catch up with, see a game with; places I'd like to go while I'm in town; make a weekend of it.

Why do you, or anyone else, need there to be a basketball tournament in town to do this?


I mean, if you're arguing for the ACCT to be in Gboro with the same amount of frequency it currently is, with all personal preferences aside, can you explain the business sense/going concern aspect of your view?

Let's see... The checks from espn don't depend on where the thing is. Ticket sales, to the extent there's a difference, are probably BETTER in a place that is closer to the majority of fans. Greensboro holds more people than MSG. Cost of leasing the building is indubitably lower. I can go on.


To me, it's simple logic. Having the ACC tournament in more and different places increases the amount of potential people that may go to a game, grab a ticket with their girlfriend or boyfriend, see it on a billboard, etc.

This is MORE likely happen in Greensboro, where there are fewer other things to do. Anyway, the number of available tickets for any game is at most 1-2% of the teevee audience. I guess you'd prefer empty arenas, because it means more tickets floating around?


I have no hard facts on any of this. But to your point, if there is no need to get global and the eyeballs will come, why does the President travel all over the country when he's campaigning? Shouldn't everyone just cast their ballot based on TV at this point?

Now that's silly. I doubt candidates have ever focused their campaigns on more than a handful of states.

roywhite
03-14-2013, 08:24 PM
Didn't see this mentioned, but Jay Bilas is strongly in favor of holding the event in MSG, if not every year, on a regular basis. No place like it, would become the focus of college basketball for the weekend, etc.

Heard Jay recently on a regional sports radio show (it's the one Packman used to host out of Charlotte, now with hosts who are a couple of steps below Packman in humor and insight).

brevity
03-14-2013, 08:27 PM
All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

If I could give hurleyfor3 sporks right now, I would, because it never would occur to me that the hotel lobby atmosphere in Greensboro is superior to anywhere else, basketball-wise. Maybe Greensboro is the perfect fit for a 12-team ACC Tournament. Sadly, they won't have those anymore.

I don't think anyone has used these exact words yet, but Greensboro becomes small potatoes as the ACC becomes, officially, the premier conference of the Eastern United States. (I don't think the Catholic 7 or new Big East, whatever its teams, can say the same.) By appearances alone, the ACC will have outgrown Greensboro. More teams, possibly more days, and possibly more byes.

There are hardcore ACC fans that will attend every tourney practice and game, and devote their entire trip to extracting as much basketball experience as possible. Then there are those who will make the arena part of their overall tourist agenda. The ACC already has the first group in its pocket, and will use expansion to entice the second group. And Greensboro will probably not be a part of that.

throatybeard
03-14-2013, 08:48 PM
Where did I say I dislike New Yorkers? I like em fine. Went to see a bunch of them this very past weekend. I just think they've got better things to do than watch a bunch of mostly southeastern teams to which they have no ties.

jay
03-14-2013, 08:49 PM
All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29066-Future-ACC-Tourney-Home&p=591485#post591485

Sorry, but your reasons for DC being a horrible ACC venue are relatively benign, IMO.

Weather? Seriously? So there was a bad weekend of weather in DC. Spring in DC is beautiful. I'm in DC right now and it's crisp, sunny and beautiful.

As for scalping tickets, sure DC has pretty strict scalping laws and the cops it sounds like were a bit heavy handed, but using that as an argument for not having a tournament is pretty specious if you ask me.

Not enough people wearing team gear around town? Again, seriously? The DC metro area is over 5 million people. Of course it's not going to be as saturated with people wearing team gear as Greensboro. But is that really one of your top 3 criteria for enjoying a tournament?

Here's my criteria: I want a good venue (Verizon center is a great venue, I've been to many games there) in an accessible area (DC metro is as easy to get around as they get) with plenty of good hotel/pub/food options (check, check, check) and the kind of people where I can sit down next to someone at a bar where there's a game on and strike up a conversation without being told to $#% off. DC has that. That, and I want seats filled (2005 had somewhere in the vicinity of 121,000...not bad).

Most of all, I want Duke to win (check on that one, too!)

This isn't to say I want the tourney in DC every year. No way. I want it in Greensboro 4 out of 5 years. But the off year, it needs to rotate around the conference geographical area, and DC is a more than adequate venue.

ChillinDuke
03-14-2013, 08:51 PM
I agree, I'm not sure why anyone thinks some other place besides Greensboro is easier to get to, from or around for the typical ACC basketball fan. Maybe Charlotte is close. You make it sound like trying to get to Yellowstone in the middle of January.



My experience is the exact opposite: for most tournament attendees I've encountered, Greensboro "does it" better than anywhere else. I don't go to to see art museums, or fancy restaurants, or clubs. There's no time! There's less that gets in the way at Greensboro, and that is its attraction.



Why do you, or anyone else, need there to be a basketball tournament in town to do this?



Let's see... The checks from espn don't depend on where the thing is. Ticket sales, to the extent there's a difference, are probably BETTER in a place that is closer to the majority of fans. Greensboro holds more people than MSG. Cost of leasing the building is indubitably lower. I can go on.



This is MORE likely happen in Greensboro, where there are fewer other things to do. Anyway, the number of available tickets for any game is at most 1-2% of the teevee audience. I guess you'd prefer empty arenas, because it means more tickets floating around?



Now that's silly. I doubt candidates have ever focused their campaigns on more than a handful of states.

I'm more than happy to disagree with you on this and let it be. But I know very few people that would experience a college basketball conference tournament game the way you describe. Doing nothing but college bball games for 4 or 5 consecutive days and bookending flights on possibly Tuesday night and Monday morning, while enjoying little more than a hotel, surrounded by die-hard basketball fans does not by any reasonable metric seem to me as the way most people choose to experience a college basketball game let alone the way that the ACC should be attempting to promote itself going forward.

Whether that's the way me or you would like it, now that's a different story.

- Chillin

jay
03-14-2013, 08:58 PM
I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

If you don't think the Big East tournament is paid attention to in NYC during championship week, then I gather you've never been there during championship week.

That's not to say the ACC tournament would be equally received. But saying everyone in NYC and their cat turns their nose up at a conference basketball tournament is just not accurate.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2013, 09:22 PM
Not enough people wearing team gear around town? Again, seriously? The DC metro area is over 5 million people. Of course it's not going to be as saturated with people wearing team gear as Greensboro. But is that really one of your top 3 criteria for enjoying a tournament?

My top three criteria for enjoying a tournament, not necessarily one sponsored by the Atlantic Coast Conference, are:

1. Duke wins
2. Unc loses as early as possible
3. Tickets are inexpensive and involve a minimum of hassle to procure

DC succeeded at #1, did ok with #2 and failed at #3.

The ACC absolutely wants rear ends in seats; this is why, for example, schools don't have equal allotments anymore. A healthy and unfettered secondary market helps greatly in this regard. Greensboro has this and DC doesn't.


Here's my criteria: I want a good venue (Verizon center is a great venue, I've been to many games there)

The upper levels in DC seem farther away from the floor than in Greensboro -- both set further back from the floor AND higher up -- and thus more tickets are dreck.


I want it in Greensboro 4 out of 5 years.

We largely agree here.

CameronBlue
03-14-2013, 09:24 PM
Next year's conference tournament (4 rounds over 5 days?) will rival in size what the NCAA tournament was as late as the mid-70s (a 22-25 team event.) The ACC already has a fair measure of CBB's royalty. Add to those Louisville, Notre Dame, Syracuse and potentially UConn and it's not a stretch of the imagination to envision an ACC final that actually eclipses the NCAA final, at least in terms of competitiveness. That's a marketing opportunity you just don't carelessly discard if creating another orgy of advertising is your thing. It's not a question of generating more eyes as much as it is elevating the stature of the league and providing more marketing opportunities for advertisers who want to be attached to the event. This is the tournament's trajectory whether we like it or not. Leave it up to the folks on Madison Avenue to turn it into an event worthy of MSG but the tournament is apt to outgrow Greensboro.

Newton_14
03-14-2013, 09:34 PM
Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.



Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.



Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?.

Bingo. Sorry, no offense to Wilson or Chillin, but where the ACC holds its basketball tourney has zippo to do with realignment, poaching, stability of the league. Realignment has everything to do with Football and tv money. Hoops are just along for the ride and for all intent and purposes, when it comes to conference realignment, basketball may as well be considered one of the non-revenue generating sports like volleyball. It just does not factor in. Think for a minute The Big 10 wanted Maryland for its hoops? No chance. They could not care less. They wanted DC Televisions and Football revenue on the off chance Maryland makes a bowl every 10 years or so.

Greensboro is the best spot for the tourney, but rotating it around every so often can indeed be a good thing. It just does not factor in to the realignment situation.

toooskies
03-14-2013, 10:34 PM
MSG is a historically significant basketball venue for which the pro stars have great respect. It's a great venue for us, too, with lots of Duke transplants there. It would give the conference gravitas with the national media talking heads who go to the tournament close to their home/TV studio.

Not saying other venues are bad, but MSG has tangible PR benefits league-wide. If MSG helps an ACC coach get a recruit he wanted, while Greensboro wouldn't, doesn't it make sense to take that opportunity when it makes sense?

Again, it might not, financially and otherwise. But I don't think many in the national media or any college kids see the allure of a tournament in Greensboro. Regardless of how the experience actually is, it's not getting recruits to want to go to Miami or BC or Georgia Tech. Greensboro has, at best, a regional appeal when teams and conferences need to be nationally relevant to matter these days.

wilson
03-14-2013, 10:42 PM
MSG is a historically significant basketball venue for which the pro stars have great respect. It's a great venue for us, too, with lots of Duke transplants there. It would give the conference gravitas with the national media talking heads who go to the tournament close to their home/TV studio.

Not saying other venues are bad, but MSG has tangible PR benefits league-wide. If MSG helps an ACC coach get a recruit he wanted, while Greensboro wouldn't, doesn't it make sense to take that opportunity when it makes sense?

Again, it might not, financially and otherwise. But I don't think many in the national media or any college kids see the allure of a tournament in Greensboro. Regardless of how the experience actually is, it's not getting recruits to want to go to Miami or BC or Georgia Tech. Greensboro has, at best, a regional appeal when teams and conferences need to be nationally relevant to matter these days.This is another good encapsulation of the thrust of Thamel's piece. I don't think anyone denies that football carries by far the most athletic weight these days, and I don't even necessarily think that people are trying to claim that an ACC tournament in New York City would bear that much in the way of financial benefits, even in a strictly basketball context. But for the reasons outlined above, I do think it would be beneficial to ACC basketball, and thus to the conference overall. That, I believe, is the point Thamel was trying to make (And I never even said I agreed with it; I just said I thought it was an interesting point, and one that Thamel made effectively).

roywhite
03-14-2013, 10:45 PM
For what it's worth, around 1990, NASCAR, another sport with major roots in the Carolinas, started having their annual year-end awards show in New York City. Factors involved were establishing a broader audience and improving the brand; no place like the media capital of the country to do that.

Postscript is that they have since moved to Las Vegas, but held their event in NYC for 18 years or so.

Just my opinion, but I think it makes sense to have the ACC Tournament at MSG for at least part of a rotation.

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 12:00 AM
We can't even fill the Greensboro Coliseum with butts for this thing anymore. Why does anyone think it's going to work at Madison Square Garden?

follyblue
03-15-2013, 12:41 AM
I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

Totally agree with this. I live in the south and have gone to the tournament for 20 years, but I have stopped going to Greensboro because there is absolutely nothing else to do there, no place to eat, and only drab generic hotels. The games are great, but there is nothing else there that would appeal to many many Duke fans. I would love to see a tournament in NYC once in a while. Plus I would rather take a one hour plane ride than a five hour drive. I would imagine I am noT alone in this thinking. Most people I know would rather go to NYC than Greensboro. Boston or Pittsburgh would be fun too. Guess it is just a matter of opinion.

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 12:51 AM
Totally agree with this. I live in the south and have gone to the tournament for 20 years, but I have stopped going to Greensboro because there is absolutely nothing else to do there, no place to eat, and only drab generic hotels.

Finally, an anti-Greensboro argument that makes some sense.

So, it's nice that Stamey's is on the west side of the arena, but Greensboro is not a real city. It's a typically, terribly, generic sprawl-mess with no walkable urban area around the arena. I'm from the South, but by and large, we have a disgusting built environment down there. In this respect, just about anywhere up north is incredibly superior, especially New York. These places also have terrible sprawl on their outskirts, but they have a core that is actually a functional built environments for walking humans.

There are probably 100 places to eat near MSG that you can walk to. And you're not screwing around with a stupid car.

-bdbd
03-15-2013, 12:52 AM
If you are comfortable with the DC Metro system, DC is a wonderful venue. If you leave (or approach) the arena there are 30-50 watering holes, restaurants and clubs within a ten-minute walk. If you leave G'bo between sessions and walk ten minutes, you are on some useless surface arterial with no amenities whatsoever. Sorry, Greensburrowers.]

So, if the problem is the DC Metro, get over it! It is a very good system and easily navigated (although watch out for closing time).

Similarly, in NY, Madison Square Garden is across the street from Union Station and the nexus of many different NY subway lines. Plus it is less than a one-mile walk from much of interest in Manhattan.

Now, both locations and especially NY are inconvenient to the ACC's traditional fan base. I guess Pete Hamel would say, "That's the ACC's problem." In fact, according to Al Featherston, over one-half of the members of the ACC sports media association are in NC. Does that sound like a conference of national signficance? Maybe it's time to put on a big-boy suit and go to the big city.

sagegrouse
'I got totally flamed the last time I made such comments'

Gotta totally agree with Sage here. NYC would give the ACC great coverage, exposure, respect, help with recruiting and open us up to new groups of fans. It is, simply, in the ACC's long-term interest. But, yes, it is less convenient for those who live in the Carolinas and who have grown spoiled with keeping it near-by. There is a limited window opening up here for the league, where we can actually get into MSG for a few years. It doesn't need to be permanent, but would be very sensible to sign a two or three-year deal, or maybe every other year over a six year window?

BTW, here's a good summarizing article on the topic from a NC media outlet:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/should-the-acc-ditch-greensboro-for-nyc-/12224455/

ChillinDuke
03-15-2013, 12:52 AM
We can't even fill the Greensboro Coliseum with butts for this thing anymore. Why does anyone think it's going to work at Madison Square Garden?

I'm not sure that anyone does.

Well, to rephrase, I'm sure someone does.

My point is much simpler than this.

No one in NYC - aside from alums and die hard fans - cares about the ACC. Today. It's a Big East city.

Granted, you can say all you want about pro sports vs. college sports and NYC. I've heard it all. It's fair - to a large degree. But NYC is a city of 8,000,000 people - 10,000,000 in the greater Metropolitan area (which includes the areas in NJ, CT, and upstate NY which are in close proximity/commuter areas to the technical boundaries of the city). By a quick Google search, that is more than the entire state of North Carolina.

The Big East is now gone. Or somewhat gone. So given the fact that if NYC was partial to any conference it was almost certainly the Big East, shouldn't it be time to (not only accept Big East teams into the ACC, but) at least attempt to make the ACC what the Big East was in the largest market in the USA. And beyond.

Listen, it doesn't matter to me. I'm a Dukie. A die hard. And I will be there. Regardless. And my point is in no way about singular NYC. But if you think keeping the ACC Tournament in a venue such as Greensboro with the frequency that it is currently, well, I simply disagree. And that's OK. I just disagree.

Please make no mistake. Greensboro is an excellent venue and an excellent host city. There is nothing wrong with it. There is also nothing wrong with keeping our tourney there in a significant way.

But to ignore the fact that this realignment is about TV screens, geographic footprint, and "eyeballs" (on this topic it's already been submitted to ad nauseum that this is the obvious driver re college football) or at least not give adequate thought to the concept that the ACC (whether speaking re the tournament or its future in general) should expand itself beyond "North Carolina" (read: its traditional footprint) seems to miss what many consider the writing on the wall.

Make no mistake, I am in no way saying anyone here is ignorant. But the thought that the ACCT should be in Greensboro 4 of every 5, 3 of every 4, or even 2 of every 3 years seems to be grounded much more in personal preference / history and less in the facts and circumstances that have been admitted to be the "new normal" that we are all hoping works in our favor.

My point is much less about NYC or any city and much more about let's stop "hoping" that this all works in our favor and start driving our own future.

MSG, NYC, DC, or any other shorthand abbreviation will very likely have little to do with where we end up as a conference at the end of the day. So to pick on them in this discussion seems to miss the point.

My point is succinctly - let's make a move (perhaps uncomfortably to many) - or else be moved upon. AD Dr. Kevin White seems to agree with this.

- Chillin

PS - Greensboro is great. The ACC (as a conference) is better.

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 01:06 AM
OK, let's reset. Let me talk about a regional dispute in my neck of the woods.

For years, Kansas City has been considered the center of gravity for the Big8 and then the Big XII. Texas has a lot more people in it than most of these states, and a lot of influence in the Big XII, God knows. There has been a lot of talk about how everything should be in Dallas. For championships, This makes the assumption that all these people from Iowa and Nebraska are going to haul down to Texas instead of KC, which is kind of in the middle of all this. Maybe the richest ones will.

BUT, Dallas has this going for it: UT, A&M (previously), TTU and Baylor are all in the same state, and OU and OkSU aren't that far away. There are Big XII South schools near the new big-market proposed site.

All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

fgb
03-15-2013, 01:12 AM
(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans?

Sort of like saying, yeah, those BBQ joints down east like Wilbur's Nd skylight inn are quaint and all, but wouldn't you be more comfy eating eastern nc BBQ in a nicer chair in Blue Smoke?

-bdbd
03-15-2013, 01:22 AM
OK, let's reset. Let me talk about a regional dispute in my neck of the woods.

For years, Kansas City has been considered the center of gravity for the Big8 and then the Big XII. Texas has a lot more people in it than most of these states, and a lot of influence in the Big XII, God knows. There has been a lot of talk about how everything should be in Dallas. For championships, This makes the assumption that all these people from Iowa and Nebraska are going to haul down to Texas instead of KC, which is kind of in the middle of all this. Maybe the richest ones will.

BUT, Dallas has this going for it: UT, A&M (previously), TTU and Baylor are all in the same state, and OU and OkSU aren't that far away. There are Big XII South schools near the new big-market proposed site.

All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

In a city/metro area of over ten million, you seriously think they'd have trouble filling up a 25,000 seat arena, given all of the "big event" media attention it is sure to be drawing??? Especially if your Clemson (example) team is playing vs Duke, or NC or Pitt, or Notre Dame (which, BTW, is the number one NYC TV market team allegiance, just ahead of PSU and then Rutgers and Syracuse - I've seen the numbers) or BC. Yes, NYC is currently a "B.E. town," but it wan't always so. That is a big part of the point here - we are trying to attract NEW fans and interest and MEDIA EXPOSURE. There's just no denying that those things would be very good for the league. The (legit) counter question is just whether it is worth the ACC giving up a chunk of it's small-town/southern roots to get those gains. I think the answer is clearly yes, especially if it isn't a full-time, permanent move.

jay
03-15-2013, 01:23 AM
Finally, an anti-Greensboro argument that makes some sense.


Heyyyy, I made (kind of) this same argument a while back in regards to DC. :)

hurleyfor3
03-15-2013, 01:28 AM
Make no mistake, I am in no way saying anyone here is ignorant. But the thought that the ACCT should be in Greensboro 4 of every 5, 3 of every 4, or even 2 of every 3 years seems to be grounded much more in personal preference

And you want us to believe that your opinion, as a New Yorker, has nothing to do with personal preference?

Sorry I missed this howler earlier:


Doing nothing but college bball games for 4 or 5 consecutive days and bookending flights on possibly Tuesday night and Monday morning, while enjoying little more than a hotel, surrounded by die-hard basketball fans does not by any reasonable metric seem to me as the way most people choose to experience a college basketball game

That is the way MOST people experience the ACC tournament! Not to mention the NCAA early round games (ok, you get a day off there). And usually I fly in Thursday, out Sunday evening. Vacation days are a scarce resource.

Duvall
03-15-2013, 01:28 AM
In a city/metro area of over ten million, you seriously think they'd have trouble filling up a 25,000 seat arena, given all of the "big event" media attention it is sure to be drawing??? Especially if your Clemson (example) team is playing vs Duke, or NC or Pitt, or Notre Dame (which, BTW, is the number one NYC TV market team allegiance, just ahead of PSU and then Rutgers and Syracuse - I've seen the numbers) or BC. Yes, NYC is currently a "B.E. town," but it wan't always so. That is a big part of the point here - we are trying to attract NEW fans and interest and MEDIA EXPOSURE.

You can't cite the popularity of Duke, UNC and Notre Dame as a reason to expect reasonable ticket sales and then turn around and suggest that the league could benefit from new media exposure. Those schools are already overexposed!

ChillinDuke
03-15-2013, 01:30 AM
OK, let's reset. Let me talk about a regional dispute in my neck of the woods.

For years, Kansas City has been considered the center of gravity for the Big8 and then the Big XII. Texas has a lot more people in it than most of these states, and a lot of influence in the Big XII, God knows. There has been a lot of talk about how everything should be in Dallas. For championships, This makes the assumption that all these people from Iowa and Nebraska are going to haul down to Texas instead of KC, which is kind of in the middle of all this. Maybe the richest ones will.

BUT, Dallas has this going for it: UT, A&M (previously), TTU and Baylor are all in the same state, and OU and OkSU aren't that far away. There are Big XII South schools near the new big-market proposed site.

All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

Throaty, I know it seems like I am but I'm not trying to pick on you, I swear. But does the BC vs. Miami game fill up in Greensboro? (I honestly don't know - but I can guess)

What about Va Tech vs. FSU?

Meanwhile, I watched a Duke vs. Michigan State game pretty darn full in MSG. Is that different? And if so, how? Because they're good teams? Michigan State is 818 miles from NYC. Boston College is 746 from Greensboro. Yet MSU can fill the Garden.

Duke vs. UNC would fill the Garden to the brim. Tickets would be absurd. The city would be abuzz over it - yes, it would. Undoubtedly the biggest ticket. Would it fill Greensboro? Yup. Does that change the ACC's profile in any meaningful way? Probably not.

It would change the ACC's profile if that game were played in NYC with any degree of consistency. IMHO.

- Chillin

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 01:41 AM
Heyyyy, I made (kind of) this same argument a while back in regards to DC. :)

You did.

Landover was an asinine suburban mess.

But current DC has a much cleaner subway than NY, and Verizon is rather functional, and it's right on top of the Metro. As Hurley likes pointing out, IAD is a disaster, but DCA feeds right into the Metro.

I guess I'm saying I think DC is better than NYC for this. And I like New York, a lot. And I ride transit from LGA to the City, which Hurley does not, coz he has a suit on.

I don't think many of the high dollar rollers in the ACC, aged 55-70, give a crap about considerations about walkability. If they live in NC or near, they care about how far they have to drive a car to the site (Greensboro). They can't even understand public transportation, as in DC and NYC. You think some random Clemson grad, aged 60, cares about sustainability? I know some of these guys. They're old white men who can't imagine doing anything ay way other than driving a car to it.

This is a regional conference that is trying to act super-regional for survival. It's trying to stitch together IPTAY people (I'm not picking on Clemson to stigmatize them in particular) with NYC-dwelling SU alums. I understand taking in other schools. But I think it's utterly ridiculous to take a southeastern conference, made of of people who hate urbanism, and expect everyone to magically skip to MSG. It's not happening! And so how is that "more visibility?"

Duvall
03-15-2013, 01:42 AM
Throaty, I know it seems like I am but I'm not trying to pick on you, I swear. But does the BC vs. Miami game fill up in Greensboro? (I honestly don't know - but I can guess)

What about Va Tech vs. FSU?

Meanwhile, I watched a Duke vs. Michigan State game pretty darn full in MSG. Is that different? And if so, how? Because they're good teams? Michigan State is 818 miles from NYC. Boston College is 746 from Greensboro. Yet MSU can fill the Garden.

Wait, are you talking about this game? (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=313190127).

I agree that the ACC would have little trouble selling tickets for any session that includes a matchup of top-ten Kentucky and Kansas teams, but that could be difficult to arrange with regularity.

ChillinDuke
03-15-2013, 01:43 AM
And you want us to believe that your opinion, as a New Yorker, has nothing to do with personal preference?

Sorry I missed this howler earlier:



That is the way MOST people experience the ACC tournament! Not to mention the NCAA early round games (ok, you get a day off there). And usually I fly in Thursday, out Sunday evening. Vacation days are a scarce resource.

I'm a New Yorker, yes. I also went to Duke for four years, Vanderbilt for a year, and love North Carolina and Tennessee. Why do you feel the need to emphasize my living and being raised in New York as a point against me?

I have voiced my opinion reasonably - and yes, it happens to be somewhat grounded in the fact that the ACCT should move locations - but I don't care if it ever once sets foot in NYC. I hope it does for the sake of the conference's future. But I won't lose one half of one second of sleep if it doesn't.

You don't have to paint me as some homer that only cares that the ACCT be in NYC. That's not me. Nor my point. In any way.

If your point in your post above is to mainly discredit my view because of where I'm from and what I'm arguing, yet your follow up is basically a viewpoint from your anecdotal experiences based on where you are from and what you're arguing, then I think we're at a stalemate, my friend.

Regardless, your view is fair. And many others seem to agree. Seems like a very solid thread topic.

Best,

- Chillin

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 01:44 AM
Throaty, I know it seems like I am but I'm not trying to pick on you, I swear. But does the BC vs. Miami game fill up in Greensboro? (I honestly don't know - but I can guess)

What about Va Tech vs. FSU?

Meanwhile, I watched a Duke vs. Michigan State game pretty darn full in MSG. Is that different? And if so, how? Because they're good teams? Michigan State is 818 miles from NYC. Boston College is 746 from Greensboro. Yet MSU can fill the Garden.

Duke vs. UNC would fill the Garden to the brim. Tickets would be absurd. The city would be abuzz over it - yes, it would. Undoubtedly the biggest ticket. Would it fill Greensboro? Yup. Does that change the ACC's profile in any meaningful way? Probably not.

It would change the ACC's profile if that game were played in NYC with any degree of consistency. IMHO.

- Chillin

Yeah. Those are not bad points.

I'm still not sure New Yorkers would love any other ACC matchup other than Duke-UNC or SU-versus one of the two just mentioned.

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 02:03 AM
Well, look. Here's another thing.

The ACC has looked at expansion with smaller private schools. Or smaller public schools that people confuse for private schools (Pitt).

The Big Ten is HUGE except for NU. HUGE.

Even the ACC publics are smaller than the B1G publics.

hurleyfor3
03-15-2013, 02:16 AM
But current DC has a much cleaner subway than NY, and Verizon is rather functional, and it's right on top of the Metro. As Hurley likes pointing out, IAD is a disaster, but DCA feeds right into the Metro.

I guess I'm saying I think DC is better than NYC for this. And I like New York, a lot. And I ride transit from LGA to the City, which Hurley does not, coz he has a suit on.

I don't think many of the high dollar rollers in the ACC, aged 55-70, give a crap about considerations about walkability. If they live in NC or near, they care about how far they have to drive a car to the site (Greensboro). They can't even understand public transportation, as in DC and NYC. You think some random Clemson grad, aged 60, cares about sustainability? I know some of these guys. They're old white men who can't imagine doing anything ay way other than driving a car to it.

Yeah, I don't see your typical Rams Clubber trying to figure out the M60 bus, much less ride it. Not that IDs are a whole lot different. But these are the people who sell out their school's allotment of tournament tickets. Every year for decades. When they decide not to make the trip to wherever, I don't know where you're going to find demand that's as reliable.

There were a few people on the DC Metro wearing acc team garb. Car from west side of Greensboro is still faster than Metro from Crystal City (parking in GBoro can be free).

I don't mind IAD as much anymore now that they got rid of the moon buggies. It's still a boring airport, and no free wifi. DCA is a dream.

-bdbd
03-15-2013, 02:31 AM
You can't cite the popularity of Duke, UNC and Notre Dame as a reason to expect reasonable ticket sales and then turn around and suggest that the league could benefit from new media exposure. Those schools are already overexposed!

Sure I can.
Frankly, I think the increased media exposure and respect is more important than the simple issue of tournament attendance. YOU can assert that Duke and UNC are "overexposed" in your words, but the undeniable fact is that these and the other ACC schools WILL GET MORE MEDIA EXPOSURE FROM HOLDING THEIR TOURNAMENT IN NYC. It is such an obvious fact I honestly feel silly having to even state it. G'boro is a fine town for what it is, but it is and always will be a "small pond." There is a lot of media attention that the ACC has NOT gotten by simply isolating ourselves, relatively speaking, in that small pond. By going to NY we expose ourselves in a much bigger pond and provide an opportunity for even more growth. And that is the bottom line - we want/need the ACC to maximize revenue and, within reason, maximize exposure. Big fish, little pond... or even BIGGER fish in a bigger pond.

davekay1971
03-15-2013, 07:47 AM
Sure I can.
Frankly, I think the increased media exposure and respect is more important than the simple issue of tournament attendance. YOU can assert that Duke and UNC are "overexposed" in your words, but the undeniable fact is that these and the other ACC schools WILL GET MORE MEDIA EXPOSURE FROM HOLDING THEIR TOURNAMENT IN NYC. It is such an obvious fact I honestly feel silly having to even state it. G'boro is a fine town for what it is, but it is and always will be a "small pond." There is a lot of media attention that the ACC has NOT gotten by simply isolating ourselves, relatively speaking, in that small pond. By going to NY we expose ourselves in a much bigger pond and provide an opportunity for even more growth. And that is the bottom line - we want/need the ACC to maximize revenue and, within reason, maximize exposure. Big fish, little pond... or even BIGGER fish in a bigger pond.

I actually don't get the increased media exposure argument. ESPN already carries the ACC tournament from start to finish. ESPN is already carried nationwide...or worldwide, if their slogan is accurate. This afternoon, the ACC games are on ESPN2, so maybe you could argue, somehow, that moving the tournament to MSG would put it on ESPN instead of ESPN2, although I suspect the Big 1? has ESPN coverage because it's got more top 25 teams competing, not because it's in Chicago.

Would the ACCT get better coverage in the local New York papers if it were in MSG...sure, yeah, I could see that. But how does that matter compared to the already worldwide TV coverage the tournament gets?

sagegrouse
03-15-2013, 08:47 AM
All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

Historically (think Knute Rockne and Frank Leahy), Notre Dame's biggest fan base was in New York -- the subway alumni -- Catholic folk who rooted for the Irish but hadn't been within 500 miles of South Bend.

It would be interesting, once Syracuse, Pitt, and ND are in the fold, to get their observations about NY as a college basketball mecca. Heck, Kevin White has first-hand experience from his years in South Bend.

sagegrouse

killerleft
03-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.



Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.



Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

This is one fine post! The last line alone was worth the price of admission. Anyone who's been to Greensboro knows that the place revolves around BOTH the men's and women's ACC Tournaments. And like hurleyfor3 said, if you're here to watch basketball, the Coliseum is the place to be. Bunches of seats, not much glass from luxury suites to reflect in your eyes. The old barn was literally remodeled (twice!) to host the ACC Tournament. It is true I live within sight of the Koury Convention Center, and have been given tickets to tonight's games, but let that in no way make you think that I have a dog in this hunt:o. ...cause it's still all true.

theAlaskanBear
03-15-2013, 02:19 PM
I think Hurleyfor3 is in a small minority.

While I have enjoyed my experiences in Greensboro--it is mostly due to the basketball and not really the city, I think that the tournament would benefit from rotating through some of the the larger east coast cities, DC, Philly, NYC, Greensboro ;), Charlotte. Most fans wont be able to or even want to watch every single basketball game. I know I am not able to sit through every game. Having other things to do also makes it waaay more justifiable to take a vacation day or two, splurge on a hotel, watch basketball...because then you can enjoy a "vacation weekend" in a bigger city. For people who can't travel often, this is a huge plus.

Plus, there will have to be some give and take with the new conference members...Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, Notre Dame...it is a bit unfair to their fanbases to make them travel to Greensboro every year where there is nothing to do but lose to Duke and watch basketball ;)

sagegrouse
03-15-2013, 02:34 PM
This is one fine post! The last line alone was worth the price of admission. Anyone who's been to Greensboro knows that the place revolves around BOTH the men's and women's ACC Tournaments. And like hurleyfor3 said, if you're here to watch basketball, the Coliseum is the place to be. Bunches of seats, not much glass from luxury suites to reflect in your eyes. The old barn was literally remodeled (twice!) to host the ACC Tournament. It is true I live within sight of the Koury Convention Center, and have been given tickets to tonight's games, but let that in no way make you think that I have a dog in this hunt:o. ...cause it's still all true.


I think Hurleyfor3 is in a small minority.

While I have enjoyed my experiences in Greensboro--it is mostly due to the basketball and not really the city, I think that the tournament would benefit from rotating through some of the the larger east coast cities, DC, Philly, NYC, Greensboro ;), Charlotte. Most fans wont be able to or even want to watch every single basketball game. I know I am not able to sit through every game. Having other things to do also makes it waaay more justifiable to take a vacation day or two, splurge on a hotel, watch basketball...because then you can enjoy a "vacation weekend" in a bigger city. For people who can't travel often, this is a huge plus.

Plus, there will have to be some give and take with the new conference members...Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, Notre Dame...it is a bit unfair to their fanbases to make them travel to Greensboro every year where there is nothing to do but lose to Duke and watch basketball ;)

The more serious question, rather than just the venue, is, "Does the ACC need to shed its North Carolina image to be an important national conference." I was shocked by Al Featherston's off-hand remark that slightly more than one-half of the ACC Sports Media Association is in the state of North Carolina. This is in a conference which now has members in seven states and about to expand to ten. Whazzup with that? No one cares except in the state of NC?

On that basis alone I would seriously consider moving the tournament on a permanent basis to MSG. That may be impractical, but I might take a close look at the option.

sagegrouse

CameronBornAndBred
03-15-2013, 02:48 PM
We can't even fill the Greensboro Coliseum with butts for this thing anymore. Why does anyone think it's going to work at Madison Square Garden?
I agree. Duke fans will most likely fill it up for their 3 games. Syracuse fans will be there, BC too. But who is going to be there to see FSU and Miami play, or GT, or any other team south of the Mason-Dixon line?

ChillinDuke
03-15-2013, 03:21 PM
I agree. Duke fans will most likely fill it up for their 3 games. Syracuse fans will be there, BC too. But who is going to be there to see FSU and Miami play, or GT, or any other team south of the Mason-Dixon line?

That's a fair question - but then it leads to (and I'm seriously asking this): What was the turnout like for yesterday's FSU-Clemson game in Greensboro? Was it full?

What about yesterday's noon game between BC and GT?

I'm seriously curious. Was anyone there who can give us some detail on the attendance? If Greensboro was rowdy and full for those games, then maybe there's more here that I'm not seeing.

If it wasn't full, then I don't see your point.

- Chillin

ns7
03-15-2013, 03:28 PM
This is an interesting discussion on what should happen, but does anyone know what will happen?

The power structure of the ACC has changed, let's compare the old guard to the new guard.

Old guard (7): Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Virginia, Wake Forest
New guard (7): Boston College, Louisville, Miami, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech
Wild card (1): Florida State (note, I don't include them in the "old guard" because they generally side against the charter members and Georgia Tech).

Basically, you could argue that the six remaining charter members + Georgia Tech want it in Greensboro, however, even Georgia Tech and Virginia probably prefer it to rotate to Atlanta or DC. The new guard and FSU have no attachment to Greensboro. Additionally they would find consistently holding the tournament in Greensboro insulting and a power play by the older members. The ACC doesn't really exist anymore--we essentially have a "Big Atlantic" conference and the reality is that the tournament has to move around.

One other note--I grew up in an ACC state that was not North Carolina. The rest of the schools (Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Virginia) are pretty bitter about the power being held in NC by the four Tobacco Road schools. That's an additional reason why they potentially might want to flee the ACC, because they think that the people running the league don't care about their concerns and well being. Continuing to hold the tournament in Greensboro would be a continuation of this policy. I believe the ACC realizes this and will move the tournament around much more in the future.

Tripping William
03-15-2013, 03:31 PM
Which side of the "Duke vs. Kentucky" debate does MSG favor? It could be the tipping point. ;)

sagegrouse
03-15-2013, 03:37 PM
This is an interesting discussion on what should happen, but does anyone know what will happen?

The power structure of the ACC has changed, let's compare the old guard to the new guard.

Old guard (7): Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Virginia, Wake Forest
New guard (7): Boston College, Louisville, Miami, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech
Wild card (1): Florida State (note, I don't include them in the "old guard" because they generally side against the charter members and Georgia Tech).

Basically, you could argue that the six remaining charter members + Georgia Tech want it in Greensboro, however, even Georgia Tech and Virginia probably prefer it to rotate to Atlanta or DC. The new guard and FSU have no attachment to Greensboro. Additionally they would find consistently holding the tournament in Greensboro insulting and a power play by the older members. The ACC doesn't really exist anymore--we essentially have a "Big Atlantic" conference and the reality is that the tournament has to move around.

One other note--I grew up in an ACC state that was not North Carolina. The rest of the schools (Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Virginia) are pretty bitter about the power being held in NC by the four Tobacco Road schools. That's an additional reason why they potentially might want to flee the ACC, because they think that the people running the league don't care about their concerns and well being. Continuing to hold the tournament in Greensboro would be a continuation of this policy. I believe the ACC realizes this and will move the tournament around much more in the future.

I don't see this division or opposition, ns&. I think, if you could had a convincing case that MSG would enhance the wealth and prestige of the conference, everyone would vote for the relocation of the tournament. The alumni of a few schools would howl, but not as much as if the conference disintegrated. This is a tough world right now in college athletics.

If I were the ACC, I would study the hell out of the issue of moving to MSG and try to understand what it would actually mean. I don't know what the right answer is. I believe, however, as noted above, that it would behoove the ACC to look less like a State of North Carolina conference. The state of NC has a population of 9.5 million, ranking in the top ten but only three percent of total US population. NC is one-half the size of FL and NY, one-third the size of TX, and one-fourth the size of CA.

sagegrouse
'Of course, the University of New Jersey would have an unfair competitive advantage in a MSG tournament'

Bluealum
03-15-2013, 04:15 PM
This is a regional conference that is trying to act super-regional for survival. It's trying to stitch together IPTAY people (I'm not picking on Clemson to stigmatize them in particular) with NYC-dwelling SU alums. I understand taking in other schools. But I think it's utterly ridiculous to take a southeastern conference, made of of people who hate urbanism, and expect everyone to magically skip to MSG. It's not happening! And so how is that "more visibility?"

The arguments on both sides are compelling, the sign of a good debate. I think the conference makes a big mistake if they alienate all the folks that have taken their kids to the tournaments and were kids themselves when they started going, by moving the tournament to the extreme of 'urbanism' that is NYC. That is a high dollar venue which will deter a lot of the fans that are and have been the heart of the conference for decades. The ACC promotes the 'Granddaddy of them all' for a reason, tradition is still important and we celebrate it.

On the other hand, hoping to build a culture that is inclusive of schools like SU, ND etc. whose alum are going to be reticent to travel to a place like Greensboro, with limited options and interest outside of the tournament is a valid concern. This is why Charlotte seems like the logical choice as a new permanent home. The bluebloods would still drive to Charlotte and it is still in the heart of the conference. However, it is infinitely more attractive for outsiders to travel to Charlotte (direct flights from almost anywhere), better hotels, restaurants, and entertainment options. This and the fact that you can actually walk from TWC to great restaurants and pubs if you need a breather from four straight hoops games without having to drive away and deal with all the parking headaches attendant in Greensboro.

I do believe that rotating the site does not build culture. Part of the reason Greensboro really gets behind the tourney is that the tourney has been there for a vast majority of years. This can easily be built in Charlotte, and it is more likely to attract fans from many of our new ACC brethren.

hurleyfor3
03-15-2013, 04:28 PM
This and the fact that you can actually walk from TWC to great restaurants and pubs if you need a breather from four straight hoops games without having to drive away and deal with all the parking headaches attendant in Greensboro.

This is a flat-out misstatement. Greensboro has very easy access, and it is possible to park on the street for free.


I do believe that rotating the site does not build culture. Part of the reason Greensboro really gets behind the tourney is that the tourney has been there for a vast majority of years. This can easily be built in Charlotte, and it is more likely to attract fans from many of our new ACC brethren.

The ACC has had TWO separate multi-year runs in Charlotte, first at the thing on Independence Boulevard and then at the thing on Tyvola Road. Not to mention a few trips back. There's a reason they've returned to Greensboro every time. Not that it's a bad city or venue, but the history speaks.

throatybeard
03-15-2013, 05:26 PM
I like Hurleyfor3's nomenclature for the Charlotte arenas. What a massive waste of money the thing on Tyvola Road was. It was demolished less than twenty years after it opened.

I'm going to start calling the WhalerCanes' and Wolfpack's arena "the thing on Wade Avenue."

Here's another problem. I read in SI that the Catholic 7 plus whoever, AKA the New Big East, will have their conference tournament at MSG. You can't have two of these things in the same place at the same time.

I suppose you could hold it in Brooklyn at the Barclays Center. If we're really desperate to get it as close to New York and as far from North Carolina as possible, you could hold it at the thing in the huge parking lot in the New Jersey swamp. The Devils and the Nets have decamped from there.

I'm still amused at the thought of old, suburban/exurban, Southern white people (the main demo at the ACCT) wandering around Manhattan or Brooklyn, having to use their legs to walk, and utterly befuddled by the subway.

hurleyfor3
03-15-2013, 05:50 PM
I like Hurleyfor3's nomenclature for the Charlotte arenas. What a massive waste of money the thing on Tyvola Road was. It was demolished less than twenty years after it opened.

I have practical reasons for using those names. Arena names change so often now that unless it's something like Wrigley or Fenway it's clearer to refer to the location or primary tenant. Note that *both* those Charlotte arenas were once called "Charlotte Coliseum". Then there was the "old" one and the "new" one. And now the "old" one is still there and the "new" one isn't.

I don't object to corporate names per se; for example, Sports Authority Field is a fine name for the Broncos' stadium as that company is HQ'd in Denver and has, you know, "Sports" in its name. Invesco OTOH has never had an office in Denver. (They're mostly Atlanta and San Francisco.)


I'm going to start calling the WhalerCanes' and Wolfpack's arena "the thing on Wade Avenue."

Case in point, it's had at least three names in the last decade and is now named after a Pittsburgh-based firm. Facility names should serve to clarify, not confuse.

JNort
03-15-2013, 11:31 PM
5 Year rotation!

I love the idea of an ACC tournament in MSG! Although I want it in Greensboro still too! I think it should go like this:

Greensboro
MSG
Greensboro
MSG
Some other location (Charlotte, Tampa, DC, etc..)

I know traditionalists will want it to stay in Greensboro but you gotta realize, this isn't the ACC like it was meant to be! We got Syracuse, Notre Dame, Pitt, and maybe more to come being added. Jot putting the tournament up there would be a slap in the face to the teams coming in.

Bluealum
03-16-2013, 12:46 AM
This is a flat-out misstatement. Greensboro has very easy access, and it is possible to park on the street for free.



The ACC has had TWO separate multi-year runs in Charlotte, first at the thing on Independence Boulevard and then at the thing on Tyvola Road. Not to mention a few trips back. There's a reason they've returned to Greensboro every time. Not that it's a bad city or venue, but the history speaks.

The primary 'reason' that it returns to Greensboro is that the ACC is headquartered there. Not much of an argument. The arenas on Tyvola and Independence had the same problem as Greensboro. You had to drive to grab a bite or a beer. Not so with TWC. It is always sold out in a much more cosmopolitan city with far simpler access in the heart of downtown.

DBFAN
03-16-2013, 01:44 AM
Before the game tonight I was against it. Afterwards I am all for it. I wish I had the time to tell u half of the things that were yelled and said to me and my wife as we were leaving the building by the UNC fans. One fan who had his kids in his car with him slowed down to flip my wife off as we were walking to our car. Never seen him before wasn't near us in the game, just felt like we needed to know what he thought of us. The irrationa behavior l of the UNC fans around us was amazing. Didn't matter we just beat them they were just yelling obscenities about K and the Duke program the entire game. I for one would love for Duke to play somewhere the entire UNC fan base won't travel. Lord knows they might miss a NASCAR event and that just won't work for them. I don't care how much I have to pay for Plane tickets, I hope I never have to watch Duke play in Greensboro again

sagegrouse
03-16-2013, 11:43 AM
The primary 'reason' that it returns to Greensboro is that the ACC is headquartered there. Not much of an argument. The arenas on Tyvola and Independence had the same problem as Greensboro. You had to drive to grab a bite or a beer. Not so with TWC. It is always sold out in a much more cosmopolitan city with far simpler access in the heart of downtown.

You're giving the ACC too much credit. This is a mercenary bunch that will go anywhere for a dollar. Greensboro, however, has spent millions and millions building an arena to attract the ACC tournament, and the burghers there go all out to get it.

sagegrouse

ns7
03-16-2013, 01:53 PM
I'm still amused at the thought of old, suburban/exurban, Southern white people (the main demo at the ACCT) wandering around Manhattan or Brooklyn, having to use their legs to walk, and utterly befuddled by the subway.

This is what I challenge--approximately half of the new ACC does not fit this stereotype. I'll argue that this only applies to UNC, NCSU, Clemson, Virginia, Virginia Tech, FSU, and Louisville fans. Duke, Wake, Georgia Tech, BC, Syracuse, ND, Miami will all have a much more diverse and urban fan base.

throatybeard
03-16-2013, 10:55 PM
Before the game tonight I was against it. Afterwards I am all for it. I wish I had the time to tell u half of the things that were yelled and said to me and my wife as we were leaving the building by the UNC fans. One fan who had his kids in his car with him slowed down to flip my wife off as we were walking to our car. Never seen him before wasn't near us in the game, just felt like we needed to know what he thought of us. The irrationa behavior l of the UNC fans around us was amazing. Didn't matter we just beat them they were just yelling obscenities about K and the Duke program the entire game. I for one would love for Duke to play somewhere the entire UNC fan base won't travel. Lord knows they might miss a NASCAR event and that just won't work for them. I don't care how much I have to pay for Plane tickets, I hope I never have to watch Duke play in Greensboro again

I can't even express how happy I am that I don't live in North Carolina anymore. Seventeen years of dealing with those psychopaths was eighteen too many. OK, maybe you're swinging me towards MSG.

MaxAMillion
03-16-2013, 11:15 PM
Before the game tonight I was against it. Afterwards I am all for it. I wish I had the time to tell u half of the things that were yelled and said to me and my wife as we were leaving the building by the UNC fans. One fan who had his kids in his car with him slowed down to flip my wife off as we were walking to our car. Never seen him before wasn't near us in the game, just felt like we needed to know what he thought of us. The irrationa behavior l of the UNC fans around us was amazing. Didn't matter we just beat them they were just yelling obscenities about K and the Duke program the entire game. I for one would love for Duke to play somewhere the entire UNC fan base won't travel. Lord knows they might miss a NASCAR event and that just won't work for them. I don't care how much I have to pay for Plane tickets, I hope I never have to watch Duke play in Greensboro again

This has been my thought process all along. Duke would get more support in NY than in Greensboro. I lived in NC for the 1st 18 years of my life and I will never forget the UNC fans behavior. I will never root for them in any sport ever. Not to mention how they rejoiced when Coach K collapsed on the sidelines that one year. I will never understand how any Duke fan can ever come up with a scenario where they will cheer for UNC.

brevity
03-17-2013, 01:33 AM
I will never understand how any Duke fan can ever come up with a scenario where they will cheer for UNC.

I can think of one: Stockholm Syndrome.

"Basically, it's when the hostages and the terrorists go through a sort of psychological transference and projection of dependency... What can only be described as a strange sort of trust and bond develops... We've had situations where hostages have embraced their captors after their release and in one case even corresponded with them in Chapel Hill..."

Once they build Nakatomi Arena (http://www.buzzerbeater.com/team/105287/arena.aspx), there'll be none of this silly Greensboro vs. NYC thing.

fisheyes
05-15-2013, 08:50 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9278832/acc-investigating-playing-conference-tournament-madison-square-garden-sources-say

They're talking about it right now at the conference meetings.

OldPhiKap
05-15-2013, 09:17 PM
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9278832/acc-investigating-playing-conference-tournament-madison-square-garden-sources-say

They're talking about it right now at the conference meetings.

I would think it is the best option from MsG's view. Should work for Duke more than most schools.

BigWayne
05-15-2013, 09:33 PM
There's a reason they've returned to Greensboro every time. Not that it's a bad city or venue, but the history speaks.

Big fish little pond. Every other city the ACCT has ever been in since the early 70s has had major league sports making the ACCT just another event.
In Greensboro, the only other major sporting event is the PGA tournament in August.

If the ACCT goes to NY, it will draw some attention, especially if it displaces the Big East tournament, but it will be sandwiched between Rangers and Knicks games.

Duvall
05-15-2013, 09:44 PM
I would think it is the best option from MsG's view. Should work for Duke more than most schools.

Duke fans will go from enduring the goonish omnipresence of UNC fans to enduring the goonish omnipresence of Syracuse fans. Yay?

OldPhiKap
05-15-2013, 10:11 PM
Duke fans will go from enduring the goonish omnipresence of UNC fans to enduring the goonish omnipresence of Syracuse fans. Yay?

I will take it.

throatybeard
05-16-2013, 12:42 AM
Look, it'll happen, even though MSG is kind of a hole. And I have no problem with that...sometimes. I just hope it doesn't become the default option.

I still think the sight of late-middle-aged UNC fans from auto suburbs of ten towns in North Carolina waddling around HAVING TO USE THEIR LEGS to get around and dealing with the unmitigated horror of PUBLIC TRANSIT with all its SES-diversity and walking is just, ah, [pause], it's just hilarious. I'd rather watch that than the basketball tournament, actually. Clemson fans too. I'd pay ten a year to see that.

sagegrouse
05-16-2013, 06:26 AM
I still think the sight of late-middle-aged UNC fans from auto suburbs of ten towns in North Carolina waddling around HAVING TO USE THEIR LEGS to get around and dealing with the unmitigated horror of PUBLIC TRANSIT with all its SES-diversity and walking is just, ah, [pause], it's just hilarious. I'd rather watch that than the basketball tournament, actually. Clemson fans too. I'd pay ten a year to see that.

My best memory of the 2005 ACC tournament in DC, aside from the championship, was the sight of four huge Clemson officials, resplendent in orange polos, tackling the menu at the wonderfully authentic Spanish restaurant Jaleo, which was only one block from the Verizon Center. This could be repeated many times over in NYC.

sagegrouse

CrazyNotCrazie
05-16-2013, 09:00 AM
Look, it'll happen, even though MSG is kind of a hole. And I have no problem with that...sometimes. I just hope it doesn't become the default option.

I still think the sight of late-middle-aged UNC fans from auto suburbs of ten towns in North Carolina waddling around HAVING TO USE THEIR LEGS to get around and dealing with the unmitigated horror of PUBLIC TRANSIT with all its SES-diversity and walking is just, ah, [pause], it's just hilarious. I'd rather watch that than the basketball tournament, actually. Clemson fans too. I'd pay ten a year to see that.

FYI - MSG is currently going through a huge renovation - they have been shutting it down over the summers when the Rangers and Knicks are done. So it is no longer the "hole" you might remember. Also, there are a several Applebee's-type restaurants close to the Garden that a New Yorker wouldn't even think of entering that will be salivating at the thought of all of the Clemson and Carolina fans coming to town.

Blue in the Face
05-16-2013, 09:24 AM
FYI - MSG is currently going through a huge renovation - they have been shutting it down over the summers when the Rangers and Knicks are done. So it is no longer the "hole" you might remember.
The improvement is really dramatic, particularly in the concourses (personally I don't really like the way the lower seating sections were changed). And if the skybridge is as cool as it sounds, well, it sounds pretty cool. Not much can be done to make the sightlines better in the worst seats, but just making them blue again was a nice touch.

weezie
05-16-2013, 09:34 AM
I'll enjoy the chance to get a deal on a hotel room in NYC.
Rather that than pay $250+ for a room in Greensboro through the IDs?!

Olympic Fan
05-16-2013, 10:20 AM
You've got to understand what's going on. The ACC WANTS to go to MSG -- in rotation with Greensboro and other sites (Atlanta every five years; maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington DC).

The problemn is that MSG is -- so far -- refusing to negotiate an occasional visit. They have the Catholic Seven (the new Big East) and the Atlantic something (the old Big East) also bidding to be the primary postseason tournament in MSG. So they have leverage.

If everything was equal, the ACC would get the contract, but when it comes down to a 5 or 10 year constract with either the old or the new Big East, versus an occasional visit by the ACC ... the MSG people will take the long-term deal. And the ACC -- so far -- has resisted committing its tournament to New York on an annual basis.

Negotiations are still going on and there may be a breakthrough. But right now, ACC officials are faced with a choice -- do you want to be in New York EVERY year or do you want to maintain a rotation that is basically based on Tobacco Road?

PS I'm guessing -- just guessing, mind you -- that the league ends up rejecting MSG's demands and works out a deal with the Barclay Center.

Duvall
05-16-2013, 10:21 AM
I'll enjoy the chance to get a deal on a hotel room in NYC.
Rather that than pay $250+ for a room in Greensboro through the IDs?!

$250+ *is* a deal in NYC.

ChillinDuke
05-16-2013, 11:30 AM
You've got to understand what's going on. The ACC WANTS to go to MSG -- in rotation with Greensboro and other sites (Atlanta every five years; maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington DC).

The problemn is that MSG is -- so far -- refusing to negotiate an occasional visit. They have the Catholic Seven (the new Big East) and the Atlantic something (the old Big East) also bidding to be the primary postseason tournament in MSG. So they have leverage.

If everything was equal, the ACC would get the contract, but when it comes down to a 5 or 10 year constract with either the old or the new Big East, versus an occasional visit by the ACC ... the MSG people will take the long-term deal. And the ACC -- so far -- has resisted committing its tournament to New York on an annual basis.

Negotiations are still going on and there may be a breakthrough. But right now, ACC officials are faced with a choice -- do you want to be in New York EVERY year or do you want to maintain a rotation that is basically based on Tobacco Road?

PS I'm guessing -- just guessing, mind you -- that the league ends up rejecting MSG's demands and works out a deal with the Barclay Center.

I think this is right and what I would put my money on.

IMO, the geographic size of conferences these days makes a rotation of conference tourney locations a nice aspect. I would personally like to see Greensboro - Atlanta - DC - Barclays - Charlotte on a 5-year rotation. That seems to keep the tournament close to the majority of schools in the conference.

- Chillin

Class of '94
05-16-2013, 11:44 AM
You've got to understand what's going on. The ACC WANTS to go to MSG -- in rotation with Greensboro and other sites (Atlanta every five years; maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington DC).

The problemn is that MSG is -- so far -- refusing to negotiate an occasional visit. They have the Catholic Seven (the new Big East) and the Atlantic something (the old Big East) also bidding to be the primary postseason tournament in MSG. So they have leverage.

If everything was equal, the ACC would get the contract, but when it comes down to a 5 or 10 year constract with either the old or the new Big East, versus an occasional visit by the ACC ... the MSG people will take the long-term deal. And the ACC -- so far -- has resisted committing its tournament to New York on an annual basis.

Negotiations are still going on and there may be a breakthrough. But right now, ACC officials are faced with a choice -- do you want to be in New York EVERY year or do you want to maintain a rotation that is basically based on Tobacco Road?

PS I'm guessing -- just guessing, mind you -- that the league ends up rejecting MSG's demands and works out a deal with the Barclay Center.

Whether the ACC would like to or not, doesn't the league have to make a long term play for either MSG or the Barclays Center in order to have the best opportunity to create as strong a presence as possibe in the NYC as a preemptive move in order to minimize the east coast presence of the BIG? I've read multiple reports in which the BIG plans to open an east coast office (most likely in NYC); and they plan to market heavily in the NY and DC markets. In fact (reading espn BIG 10 blog reports), Delaney conisiders vital for the conference to establish a strong presence in the "East Corridor" with all the major media markets as well as financial and educational institutions.

If that is the case, I could see the BIG look to hold their conf tournament in either the Barclays Center or MSG (if the ACC doesn't) in order promote their presence on the East coast. I know currently the BIG holds their conf tournaments in Chicago at the United Center (and they may even alternate between Chicago and Indy; I can't remember); but Delaney seems extremely focused on the East coast; and I can't see a better way to make a splash then to takeover the Barclays or MSG for BIG tournament. And if that doesn't happen, I could see them using the Verizon Center in DC (more often than the ACC did) as part a rotation of sites for their conf tournaments.

hurleyfor3
05-16-2013, 12:23 PM
$250+ *is* a deal in NYC.

During the depths of the 2009 not-quite-depression, I scored the Courtyard on Bryant Park for $139/night for three nights in May (ie, a time you want to be there). On Marriott's Web site, not Priceline!

In 2007 I stayed at a different Courtyard for close to $600 with tax. Although that one was expensed, so really it was free.

Most I've ever paid in GBoro during an ACC Tournament was around $85, and that was for a Marriott-family property. (Yes, Marriott is the Official Hotel Chain of hurleyfor3.) The hotel market during the tournament is really not that bad, because many fans are within driving distance, can decide to go on the spur of the moment, and/or don't need a hotel for the whole tourney.

Brooklyn, huh? If we're OK with New-York-that's-not-really-New-York, we could've just asked East Rutherford all this time.

throatybeard
05-16-2013, 02:31 PM
FYI - MSG is currently going through a huge renovation - they have been shutting it down over the summers when the Rangers and Knicks are done. So it is no longer the "hole" you might remember. Also, there are a several Applebee's-type restaurants close to the Garden that a New Yorker wouldn't even think of entering that will be salivating at the thought of all of the Clemson and Carolina fans coming to town.

That's awesome. I'm going to write a travel guide to New York and start the restaurant section, alphabetically, with "Applebee's-type restaurants," stealing that from you. I'll have to have it ready in time for the 2017 ACCT.

Re: Barclays. The Atlantic Ten (which has 17 schools, but soon won't) had their tournament there this year, and Wiki makes it look like they have a five-year deal through 2017.

Tappan Zee Devil
05-16-2013, 03:46 PM
Brooklyn, huh? If we're OK with New-York-that's-not-really-New-York, we could've just asked East Rutherford all this time.

Well - having spent some time in Brooklyn (my daughter lives there), I can attest that it has a downtown, a world-class museum, a great concert venue (BAM - not the Barclay Center) and a host of excellent restaurants. You will find none of those in East Rutherford.

aheel4ever
05-16-2013, 03:48 PM
Look, it'll happen, even though MSG is kind of a hole. And I have no problem with that...sometimes. I just hope it doesn't become the default option.

I still think the sight of late-middle-aged UNC fans from auto suburbs of ten towns in North Carolina waddling around HAVING TO USE THEIR LEGS to get around and dealing with the unmitigated horror of PUBLIC TRANSIT with all its SES-diversity and walking is just, ah, [pause], it's just hilarious. I'd rather watch that than the basketball tournament, actually.

C'mon, you can't be serious. You don't think that the majority of UNC fans that will go to NYC for the ACCT have been there before? Or used mass transit? Sheesh.

lotusland
05-16-2013, 04:15 PM
C'mon, you can't be serious. You don't think that the majority of UNC fans that will go to NYC for the ACCT have been there before? Or used mass transit? Sheesh.

Is riding mass transit a degree program at UNC?

I attended several ACC tournaments in Charlottte back when it was supposed to be the toughest ticket in all of sports. It was actually very easy to buy cheap tickets in the parking lot and the environment was quite sterile. I don't care wher they have it as long as it is televised.

rifraf
05-16-2013, 04:18 PM
There is no way could I convince my wife (also a Duke alum) to go to the ACC tourney in GBoro now that we live in Chicago, but I could absolutely convince her to go in NYC. Why? Because the answer to "What happens if Duke loses early" is MUCH better if the tourney is in NYC than if its in Gboro. I have to believe that a lot of fans from other schools would feel the same way. People who live outside of NC would be more likely to travel to visit their team if they could plan a vacation around it, or have something to do outside of the arena if their team loses early. I could certainly sit and watch other ACC teams play for hours even if Duke had lost, but I doubt the majority of people feel that way.

hurleyfor3
05-16-2013, 04:23 PM
There is no way could I convince my wife (also a Duke alum) to go to the ACC tourney in GBoro now that we live in Chicago

Just to be in North Carolina in March instead of in Chicago is reason enough. Actually that works for every month.

OldPhiKap
05-16-2013, 05:08 PM
Do they have tractor parking?

throatybeard
05-16-2013, 05:42 PM
Just to be in North Carolina in March instead of in Chicago is reason enough. Actually that works for every month.

Not May thru September. Unless you're in Blowing Rock.

brevity
05-17-2013, 12:05 AM
Do they have tractor parking?

At MSG? Doubt it. We'll have to change the chant to "Start the subway!"

throatybeard
05-17-2013, 01:19 AM
C'mon, you can't be serious. You don't think that the majority of UNC fans that will go to NYC for the ACCT have been there before? Or used mass transit? Sheesh.

I'm not bagging on UNC for the sake of it. I'm talking about the main demo I see at the ACCT. This demo is (1) Boom, maybe Silent, (2) mostly White, (3) and their Silent or GI parents removed them from sustainable cities when they were young or even before to prevent them from having to walk around minorities. This means that we now have people who are as old as 70 and have never lived in the sort of walkable, transit-rich, culturally-rich environment that is Manhattan.

This is anecdotal, but take my parents, because they're illustrative of the problem. My mother was born in Lexington NC in 1941. It was a factory town, and the older kids would walk the younger kids to school. By her time at Duke, White people had decided walking anywhere was trashy and not to be done, unless it was two blocks off East and maybe not then. I was born in 1976. I never lived anywhere non-suburban till I chose to when I moved here, I am sad to say. My father was born in the prairie in Minnesota in 1939. They took the horse hitching posts off main street in 1950. By the 1970s, like my mother, he could not imagine living in any built environment that wasn't 100% dependent on the automobile, even though they lived in Chapel Hill, where he got three degrees, and where poor graduate students could still afford to live in a walkable environment. So her = Duke, him = Carolina. It's not about Carolina, or State, or Clemson, even though that's easy. It's about everywhere in the US, especially the sun belt.

My mother has been liberal her whole life; my father was until his late forties in the 1980s and is now extremely conservative. They live in the same house. It's not even politics. Politics aside, and her current disability aside, the only way they can imagine living is 100% car-dependency. They live in an exurb of Winston-Salem. If they lived in the amazing facility two walkable blocks from my condo in StL, she would have had about another seven years of autonomy with her scooter.

The generations after them have been even worse in their buy-in to the idea that the only way to go anywhere is the car. Fortunately, I think this may finally be turning with the Millennials.

So anyway, yes. I reserve the right to laugh my butt off at old White alumni of ACC9+VT schools negotiating a much healthier built environment in NYC. It isn't about UNC. It's about America. Where no one able-bodied should ever have to take transit or walk anywhere, since WWII! Amurrca!

Bob Green
05-17-2013, 09:35 AM
The generations after them have been even worse in their buy-in to the idea that the only way to go anywhere is the car.

The Geography of Nowhere is an excellent book by James Howard Kunstler that I highly recommend for anyone interested in reading about America's addiction to the automobile:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Geography_Of_Nowhere.html?id=pkmluwVdwx0C

ChillinDuke
05-17-2013, 09:53 AM
I'm talking about the main demo I see at the ACCT.

The main demo you see at the ACCT in Greensboro? This is clearly self-propagating because the demo you see at the ACCT in Gboro is dominated by people in close proximity to GBoro.

Listen, I think this whole discussion about where it should be held is getting silly and not grounded in reality. Although I really do share in the hysterical vision of wine-n-cheese UNC fans accidentally taking the uptown 5 into the Bronx and ending up on 165th St next to Kennedy Fried Chicken, the more likely event is that specific demo of people just won't come up north for the tourney. And that's fine. There is more than just this demo / grouping that are fans of Duke / the ACC / college basketball, and some of them live in areas other than NC.

To hold firmly to the belief that the ACCT in Greensboro is the be-all and end-all just because of tradition, personal preference, or a self-fulfilling vision of who attends these tournaments is completely disregarding and maybe even ostracizing a not insignificant piece of the fanbase (including our very own Duke fanbase) which I don't think is fair or reasonable. Just read Swofford's words in the article linked on the homepage.

I get both view points, I really do. And I want the tourney to stay in Gboro some of the time. But I can't honestly believe that a rotation of tournaments into other areas (perhaps including New York, Brooklyn, or some other northern cities) is a negative thing. It's completely reasonable. The Super Bowl rotates. The All-Star Game rotates. The Olympics rotate. The World's Fair rotated. Events rotate!

In closing...


Amurrca!

This.

- Chillin

devildeac
05-17-2013, 06:29 PM
I'll enjoy the chance to get a deal on a hotel room in NYC.
Rather that than pay $250+ for a room in Greensboro through the IDs?!


$250+ *is* a deal in NYC.

Try one of these:

http://www.marriott.com/hotel-search/greensboro.hotels.north-carolina.united-states.travel/

throatybeard
05-17-2013, 06:41 PM
When I stay in Manhattan, and I'm not on my grad student friend's futon in Alphabet City, I go to the Riverside Tower for about $140 with tax. I suspect the general affluence of Duke people my age or older would cause most posters to consider this a slummy flop house, but it has the advantage of being two blocks from the 1/2 subway at 79th. It gets me to Lincoln Center tout suite. Warning: not all the rooms have a/c. I only stay there November to April or so.

weezie
05-18-2013, 12:32 PM
.... I suspect the general affluence of Duke people my age or older would cause most posters to consider this a slummy flop house....Warning: not all the rooms have a/c.....


Wow, you're really selling it! :cool:

quikbook.com is a fairly good search site.

ForkFondler
05-18-2013, 07:48 PM
You've got to understand what's going on. The ACC WANTS to go to MSG -- in rotation with Greensboro and other sites (Atlanta every five years; maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington DC).

The problem is that MSG is -- so far -- refusing to negotiate an occasional visit. They have the Catholic Seven (the new Big East) and the Atlantic something (the old Big East) also bidding to be the primary postseason tournament in MSG. So they have leverage.



If that is what is happening, then MSG is being monumentally stupid. They could command a higher rate by giving out annual contracts. Lots of conferences would love to put MSG in their rotation (e.g.the ACC, new BE, AAC, B1G, A10), but given the geographic distribution of all those conferences, none of them is going to really want to be there all the time.

DU82
05-18-2013, 08:29 PM
You've got to understand what's going on. The ACC WANTS to go to MSG -- in rotation with Greensboro and other sites (Atlanta every five years; maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington DC).



Do you really think the ACC will EVER go back to DC? the 2005 tourney was terrible. Bad atmosphere, bad cops (killing ticket sales other than by the pros that they already knew...cracking down on fan to fan sales.). Plus, Maryland's left for Alaska, I mean the B1G.

There's probably a better chance of heading back to Tampa.

ForkFondler
05-18-2013, 08:46 PM
Plus, Maryland's left for Alaska, I mean the B1G.

Maryland has left Alaska for warmer climes. I think their new location will be an island somewhere in the midatlantic, say Bermuda. Or, Hawaii of the East, that's it. :D

weezie
05-19-2013, 11:45 AM
Do you really think the ACC will EVER go back to DC? the 2005 tourney was terrible...
There's probably a better chance of heading back to Tampa.


And don't forget the meanest, crankiest and rudest ushers, on the planet in the Verizon Detention Center. They're there all the time and only back down a bit when it's hockey and they feel slightly less powerful. Bleeech.

Tampa is fine with me. Great bars, beaches and Grapefruit League spring ball. Some folks get bent out of shape with the travel but we sure enjoyed the stay.

aheel4ever
05-20-2013, 01:09 PM
I'm not bagging on UNC for the sake of it. I'm talking about the main demo I see at the ACCT. This demo is (1) Boom, maybe Silent, (2) mostly White, (3) and their Silent or GI parents removed them from sustainable cities when they were young or even before to prevent them from having to walk around minorities. This means that we now have people who are as old as 70 and have never lived in the sort of walkable, transit-rich, culturally-rich environment that is Manhattan.

This is anecdotal, but take my parents, because they're illustrative of the problem. My mother was born in Lexington NC in 1941. It was a factory town, and the older kids would walk the younger kids to school. By her time at Duke, White people had decided walking anywhere was trashy and not to be done, unless it was two blocks off East and maybe not then. I was born in 1976. I never lived anywhere non-suburban till I chose to when I moved here, I am sad to say. My father was born in the prairie in Minnesota in 1939. They took the horse hitching posts off main street in 1950. By the 1970s, like my mother, he could not imagine living in any built environment that wasn't 100% dependent on the automobile, even though they lived in Chapel Hill, where he got three degrees, and where poor graduate students could still afford to live in a walkable environment. So her = Duke, him = Carolina. It's not about Carolina, or State, or Clemson, even though that's easy. It's about everywhere in the US, especially the sun belt.

My mother has been liberal her whole life; my father was until his late forties in the 1980s and is now extremely conservative. They live in the same house. It's not even politics. Politics aside, and her current disability aside, the only way they can imagine living is 100% car-dependency. They live in an exurb of Winston-Salem. If they lived in the amazing facility two walkable blocks from my condo in StL, she would have had about another seven years of autonomy with her scooter.

The generations after them have been even worse in their buy-in to the idea that the only way to go anywhere is the car. Fortunately, I think this may finally be turning with the Millennials.

So anyway, yes. I reserve the right to laugh my butt off at old White alumni of ACC9+VT schools negotiating a much healthier built environment in NYC. It isn't about UNC. It's about America. Where no one able-bodied should ever have to take transit or walk anywhere, since WWII! Amurrca!

I went back and looked at some of your posts on this thread. It's pretty clear where you're coming from.

Duvall
05-20-2013, 01:37 PM
Tampa is fine with me. Great bars, beaches and Grapefruit League spring ball. Some folks get bent out of shape with the travel but we sure enjoyed the stay.

That's the problem. Tampa was fine for the donor class, but the lack of any kind of secondary market guaranteed an empty arena for most of the tournament.

sagegrouse
05-20-2013, 02:01 PM
And don't forget the meanest, crankiest and rudest ushers, on the planet in the Verizon Detention Center. They're there all the time and only back down a bit when it's hockey and they feel slightly less powerful. Bleeech.

Tampa is fine with me. Great bars, beaches and Grapefruit League spring ball. Some folks get bent out of shape with the travel but we sure enjoyed the stay.

As we say in Washington, "where one stands is often where one sits." Anyway, I live (sit) part of the year in downtown DC, and I stand for DC as the best ACC Tournament I have ever attended.

What's not to like? Metro is spectacular and drops you off at the Verizon Center. Food and drink? At least 50 establishment within 3-4 blocks -- and a few offer outstanding food (Jaleo, Proof, Brazilian steakhouse). In Gbo, one is still in the parking lot after a similar walk. Hotels? Not cheap, but widely available. Other things to do? Yup, including museums (all free) within a short walk from the Verizon Center.

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
05-20-2013, 04:38 PM
ACC schools all recruit in DC, and it is not that far from UVa. It is the center of the East Coast and a mid-point for our conference.

Like it or not, DC is still in the mix. And if we (meaning ACC) want to get some of the kids from there instead of ceding them to Md and GTown, we should want a presence there.

I would love for it to stay in G'boro but we're not that small conference anymore. DC, NY, Charlotte, ATL need to be in the rotation almost by default now too.

throatybeard
05-20-2013, 04:40 PM
The Geography of Nowhere is an excellent book by James Howard Kunstler that I highly recommend for anyone interested in reading about America's addiction to the automobile:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Geography_Of_Nowhere.html?id=pkmluwVdwx0C

Yes. See also, Home from Nowhere (1996) and The City in Mind (2001). They're a loose trilogy. The last is particularly fascinating because he devotes long essays to, I'm not going to remember all of them, but at least Atlanta, Boston, Paris, Mexico City, and some others. I haven't read it in about six years and need to again. Growing up near Atlanta, that essay is my favorite, a hilariously Serbia indictment of what we've done with the built environment.

Duvall
05-20-2013, 07:40 PM
ACC schools all recruit in DC, and it is not that far from UVa. It is the center of the East Coast and a mid-point for our conference. Like it or not, DC is still in the mix. And if we (meaning ACC) want to get some of the kids from there instead of ceding them to Md and GTown, we should want a presence there.

I would love for it to stay in G'boro but we're not that small conference anymore. DC, NY, Charlotte, ATL need to be in the rotation almost by default now too.

Do you really think that the ACC's annual harvest of DC basketball talent will be affected by playing one weekend in DC every 3-4 years?

NYC is the center of the East Coast. Greensboro is the geographic center of the conference, with a ready supply of fans to attend games when the donors leave. DC is a poor substitute for either.

OldPhiKap
05-20-2013, 08:12 PM
Do you really think that the ACC's annual harvest of DC basketball talent will be affected by playing one weekend in DC every 3-4 years?

NYC is the center of the East Coast. Greensboro is the geographic center of the conference, with a ready supply of fans to attend games when the donors leave. DC is a poor substitute for either.

Don't get me wrong, as I said I wish we could turn back the clock and stay in Greensboro.

I do think playing in DC and exposing kids to ACC teams make a difference. It is why we play in Chicago, Philly, and NYC when we can. It's why we always played road games in the senior's home area back in the day. Everyone wants a chance to play in front of their HS buds and family, and visibility does count.

My two cents, FWIW. Reasonable minds can differ.