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moonpie23
03-12-2013, 09:50 PM
no one.....


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %


i guess we ARE all witnessing....

CDu
03-12-2013, 10:00 PM
He has a real chance to go down as the best player ever. He's just an unbelievable talent.

Hopefully his body holds up. He's been more or less superhuman, but being 6'8" 260 and playing his style of play may be a ticking time bomb.

The good thing for him is that he's expanding his game. He's always been a great passer and freak athlete, but now he seems to be improving his shooting touch. As the explosiveness fades (and it will eventually fade), he'll need that shooting touch to remain a superstar.

Newton_14
03-12-2013, 10:01 PM
no one.....


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %


i guess we ARE all witnessing....

He is finally putting it all together. Most impressive stat on there for me is the 3PT percentage. That is great improvement. I guess the only weakness left for Lebron is shooting touch on mid-range jumpers. If he can master that it turns him into a player with no weak spots left in his game. Jordan was the absolute best ever at hitting mid-range jumpers at will. For all of his great talents, to me that mid-range jumper set MJ apart from all others. If the Bulls absolutely had to get a bucket, Jordan would always go to that shot as his bread and butter from any spot on the floor. That and the ability to rise up for that shot, and literally hang in the air until the defender starting returning to earth at which point Jordan release the shot over the outstretch hand of the defenders futile attempt to block it. One of the more amazing feats I have ever witnessed from a basketball player. How he defied gravity like that was just surreal. Something in that DNA was vastly different from normal humans.

dukelifer
03-12-2013, 10:11 PM
no one.....


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %


i guess we ARE all witnessing....

Get some coaching from Coach K and play with Shane and you should get better.

WillJ
03-12-2013, 10:19 PM
I've watched quite a few heat games this year and he's just awesome. As Steve Kerr put it, the incredible thing is the increase in his jumpshooting accuracy. He's gone from being a very mediocre shooter to being an outstanding one. I think it's very hard to make absolute rankings, but he's in the conversation for the top 3-4 players of all time, along with, in my mind, Russell, Kareem, and Jordan.

wilson
03-12-2013, 10:27 PM
I've watched quite a few heat games this year and he's just awesome. As Steve Kerr put it, the incredible thing is the increase in his jumpshooting accuracy. He's gone from being a very mediocre shooter to being an outstanding one. I think it's very hard to make absolute rankings, but he's in the conversation for the top 3-4 players of all time, along with, in my mind, Russell, Kareem, and Jordan.Honest question: how much do championships matter in this discussion (or do they matter at all)? I know that it's a team game, different eras, etc, but to me, titles do have to be part of the discussion. Russell has 11. Jordan and Kareem each have 6. LeBron, so far, has one. I fully expect that he'll win several more, but he kind of needs to in order to vault himself into the above company in my eyes. And while he may well be better in his own right than was Kobe at the same age, Kobe's 5 titles (and the way he led the team, whether or not Shaq wants to admit it, in four of those seasons) remain a big trump card over LeBron for the time being.

CajunDevil
03-12-2013, 10:35 PM
The most impressive stat for me is overall shooting %... MJ's best year from the field (overall shooting %) was 53.9% while shooting only 31.2% from 3Pt in '90-91 vs. Lebron's 56.2% while shooting 40.4% from 3Pt.

This is most impressive because people perceive Lebron's weakness to be his shooting, yet he's putting up numbers substantially better than Jordan's best one year overall shooting percentage. What will be fascinating to watch is how in the next 3-4 years LBJ's game evolve to more of a PF and rely less on his physicality, much like MJ did.

vick
03-12-2013, 10:49 PM
Honest question: how much do championships matter in this discussion (or do they matter at all)? I know that it's a team game, different eras, etc, but to me, titles do have to be part of the discussion. Russell has 11. Jordan and Kareem each have 6. LeBron, so far, has one. I fully expect that he'll win several more, but he kind of needs to in order to vault himself into the above company in my eyes. And while he may well be better in his own right than was Kobe at the same age, Kobe's 5 titles (and the way he led the team, whether or not Shaq wants to admit it, in four of those seasons) remain a big trump card over LeBron for the time being.

I'll let others discuss the 'rings' argument (I'm not a fan myself), but Kobe the leader over Shaq in 01-02? I disagree with that. Shaq was the leading scorer, and vastly more efficient--just check out his PER in 2001 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html) and 2002 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2002.html). Even the MVP voters, who never met a big man they couldn't shaft to give the award to a guard, awarded a single first-place vote to Kobe in all three years combined (Shaq never fell below 7, even with injuries limiting him in the regular season). Shaq was almost certainly the best player in the league in 2001, and probably in 2002 when he was playing. Frankly, I'd say the gap between Shaq and Kobe at that point was larger than the one between Kobe and Gasol for the 2009-2010 run.

Newton_14
03-12-2013, 11:02 PM
Honest question: how much do championships matter in this discussion (or do they matter at all)? I know that it's a team game, different eras, etc, but to me, titles do have to be part of the discussion. Russell has 11. Jordan and Kareem each have 6. LeBron, so far, has one. I fully expect that he'll win several more, but he kind of needs to in order to vault himself into the above company in my eyes. And while he may well be better in his own right than was Kobe at the same age, Kobe's 5 titles (and the way he led the team, whether or not Shaq wants to admit it, in four of those seasons) remain a big trump card over LeBron for the time being.

It's absolutely fair, and yes it matters. I too think he wins multiple championships and he needs that to reach the super elite status. I still lean to Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe. and fairly or not, I give the smaller guys more points for imposing their will without having the size to simply score by overpowering the defender with size and brute strength.

Shag was great but being so much bigger than the defender was a huge advantage those other greats did not have. They had to rely solely on skill and athletic ability. Bird and Magic used great skill and basketball intelligence of just seeing the floor differently with the ability to see a play develop 3 or 4 passes ahead of time. Plus Bird used craftiness, positioning, shooting skill, and passing skills. Magic was simply the greatest floor leader and passer ever, could score multiple ways when needed and could play any position on the floor.

Lebron at times just uses brute strength and size to over power the defender as well much like Shaq did, just in a different way.

All super elite players though in their own right, but Lebron does need more championships to fully belong in the Elite of the Elite club. He is well on his way to doing so. I think he gets to 5 easily, provided he has the benefit of having enough good/great players around him to acoomplish it. None of those other guys got the titles without the help of great teammates. Lebron will need the same. I hope he gets that help. I hated how he handled the move to Miami, but he is so good he deserves to win enough titles to belong in that club. Just hope Shane and maybe other Duke players down the road are some of the great supporting cast guys that help LBJ get there.

cptnflash
03-12-2013, 11:10 PM
It's pretty clear at this point that peak LeBron > peak MJ. He is putting up better numbers against inarguably better competition.

The last hurdle LeBron faces is whether he's willing to go on the juice in his 30's the way Jordan did, in order to sustain his performance over a longer-than-natural time period. If he does, and avoids detection, he'll probably go down as the greatest of all time.

roywhite
03-12-2013, 11:11 PM
26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %



How's this for 2 very good seasons (in a long career)
25.8 PPG
6.6 RPG
5.2 APG
48.9% FG
79.5% FT
(not many 3-pt attempts)

and
21.4 PPG
9.0 RBG
7.3 APG
49.6% FG
71.1% FT


That's two of Grant Hill's best seasons; the first one listed is 1999-00, and the second was just his third year in the league, 1996-97

Not quite up to LeBron, and certainly not the 3-pt shooter LeBron is, but Grant put together some great all-around seasons.

Love the guys that do it all, the "stat-sheet stuffers".

Newton_14
03-12-2013, 11:18 PM
It's pretty clear at this point that peak LeBron > peak MJ. He is putting up better numbers against inarguably better competition.

The last hurdle LeBron faces is whether he's willing to go on the juice in his 30's the way Jordan did, in order to sustain his performance over a longer-than-natural time period. If he does, and avoids detection, he'll probably go down as the greatest of all time.

Whoah... I can't agree on the level of competition. The league is very watered down due to expansion and early entry. The 80's and early 90's had much better teams than today.

But the shocker is the roid accusation. I have never ever heard accusations that Jordan juiced. I think that warrants evidence to not fall direclty into rumor mongering which is not allowed on DBR. I thoughy MJ's game declined on a normal timeline at normal ages. It does not past the smell test for me unless you have some proof you can share?

robed deity
03-12-2013, 11:25 PM
How's this for 2 very good seasons (in a long career)
25.8 PPG
6.6 RPG
5.2 APG
48.9% FG
79.5% FT
(not many 3-pt attempts)

and
21.4 PPG
9.0 RBG
7.3 APG
49.6% FG
71.1% FT


That's two of Grant Hill's best seasons; the first one listed is 1999-00, and the second was just his third year in the league, 1996-97

Not quite up to LeBron, and certainly not the 3-pt shooter LeBron is, but Grant put together some great all-around seasons.

Love the guys that do it all, the "stat-sheet stuffers".


I recently surfed Youtube and watched old Grant Hill NBA highlights. Unbelievable. I had forgotten how insanely good he was before the ankle problems.

Also, it made me think how it was even more ridiculous for Jason King to leave him off the starting 5 of his "all-K team." I loved the other guys on that '94 team, but for Hill to almost lead them to a title is one of the all-time great feats by a Duke player. He was incredible that year.

moonpie23
03-12-2013, 11:35 PM
whether he's willing to go on the juice in his 30's the way Jordan did,

wow......you got some credible links? this would be BIG news....

JasonEvans
03-13-2013, 12:00 AM
no one.....


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %


i guess we ARE all witnessing....

You must be young.

How about this--

30.5 PPG
10.1 RPG
9.7 APG
47.3 FG%

That was Oscar Robertson's ROOKIE SEASON!!

It got better from there. His soph season in the NBA, he averaged a triple double -- 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 11.4 APG.

It is true that he never shot quite as high as 56% FGs, but he was not a gunner and hit right around 50% of his FGs over his career. They did not have a 3 point shot back then, so comparing that is impossible.

Another comparison could be Magic Johnson, who had waaay more assists than Lebron and was often rebounding at an 8 or 9 RPG clip. Of course, he was only about a 19 or 20 ppg scorer most of the time, which is less than what Lebron does. Of course, Magic made up for that with 3-5 more APG than Lebron. Magic's FG% was almost always in the mid 50% range, quite similar to what Lebron does.

Larry Legend is an other guy who had eyeball-popping stats similar to the ones you seem to think have been done by "NO ONE." The most comparable season was probably 1986-87 or 1987-88. In each of those years, the Bird Man averaged about 29 PPG, 7 APG, and 9+ RPG while shooting 52%+ from the field. He hit his 3s at a better than 40% rate as well. And his FT% was an otherworldly 91%+

It is a great, great compliment to Lebron to say that he is having a year like some of the best from the careers of The Big O, Magic, and Larry. Lebron is certainly joining the pantheon of the best to ever lace up their hightops.

But the notion that "no one" has ever had a statistical season like this one, well that simply ain't true. Not even close.

-Jason "ooooh, just thought of one more... back in a moment" Evans

subzero02
03-13-2013, 12:00 AM
It's pretty clear at this point that peak LeBron > peak MJ. He is putting up better numbers against inarguably better competition.

The last hurdle LeBron faces is whether he's willing to go on the juice in his 30's the way Jordan did, in order to sustain his performance over a longer-than-natural time period. If he does, and avoids detection, he'll probably go down as the greatest of all time.

Is that you Juanita?

JasonEvans
03-13-2013, 12:04 AM
Yup, I had totally forgotten about how this dude started passing the ball later in his career. This is a season waaaaay better than what Lebron is doing this year.

24.1 PPG
24.2 RPG
7.8 APG
68.3% FG

or, the very next year,

24.3 PPG
23.8 RPG
8.6 APG
59.5% FG

Those are the 1966-67 and 1967-68 seasons of Wilt the Stilt. After he got traded to Philly, he started passing a lot more and was able to put up assist numbers very similar to Lebron's. Of course, he was rebounding at a rate that Bron-Bron could not dream of achieving.

-Jason "how about that FG% for Wilt!!! Whew!" Evans

vick
03-13-2013, 12:04 AM
Actually, I think I'll expand a bit on Shaq vs. Kobe, as I think it provides an excellent highlight into one of the two major problems I have with what is derisively referred to in the stats world as the 'count da ringz!' argument. There are, as I would think, three basic ways you could identify the better player. First, you could look at a statistical model of what makes a player better. No single model captures this perfectly, but I'll use two of the most well-known--Hollinger's PER (league average 15) and Basketball-Reference's Win Shares per 48 minutes (league average 0.100). Second, you could look at how the team actually performs with different player's on the floor--the plus-minus that so values Battier's contributions. I'll use regularized adjusted plus-minus (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/) (RAPM), which I believe is the gold standard. Third, you could use the "eye test," which I'll judge based on MVP ranking. When possible, I also looked at playoff figures separately (so using finals MVP for the "eye test" ranking. Here are the figures for Shaq and Kobe for the 2000-2002 championship run, and keeping in mind I did this pretty quickly so I might have made an error somewhere:



2000 Shaq Kobe Adv.
PER 30.6 21.7 Shaq
WS/48 0.283 0.202 Shaq
RAPM 8.2 2.3 Shaq
MVP 1 12 Shaq
PER(P) 30.5 19.3 Shaq
WS/48(P)0.224 0.115 Shaq
F-MVP Yes No Shaq

2001 Shaq Kobe Adv.
PER 30.2 24.5 Shaq
WS/48 0.245 0.196 Shaq
RAPM 11.1 4 Shaq
MVP 3 9 Shaq
PER(P) 28.7 25 Shaq
WS/48(P)0.260 0.260 Tie
F-MVP Yes No Shaq

2002 Shaq Kobe Adv.
PER 29.7 23.2 Shaq
WS/48 0.262 0.199 Shaq
RAPM 10.5 3.5 Shaq
MVP 3 5 Shaq
PER(P) 28.3 20.5 Shaq
WS/48(P)0.236 0.148 Shaq
F-MVP Yes No Shaq


As is immediately apparent, it's a total blowout for Shaq, with the only time it was even close being the 2001 playoff run, where they were in cruise control. But stats say Shaq was better. The team was better with Shaq on the floor. Voters--despite well-known biases against both big men ("nobody loves Goliath") and against recent winners--thought Shaq was better. Practically everyone except teenage boys thought Shaq was better. Shaq was better.

And then, when the Lakers start to look like a contender again in the late '00s, it all changed. Suddenly, in order to spice up Kobe's pursuit of 'Jordan's' rings, we changed history--those weren't Shaq's teams, they were Kobe's! This is my first gripe with the rings argument--I believe it literally distorts people's perceptions of reality.

The second is the more familiar one, that it ignores teammates, and in doing so, we encourage behavior from top athletes we really shouldn't. Take Lebron's 2009 season. By all rights, this was one of the great individual efforts in the history of American team sports, dragging a team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2009.html) who's second best player was Mo Williams (a lifetime 15.4 PER/ 0.087 WS48 player--in other words the very model of average)--to the league's best record. A reasonable person would say that's incredible--frankly I think it's probably as hard as pulling a team whose second best player is Bob Cousy or Robert Parish or Scottie Pippen to a championship. But because people don't think that way--'count da ringz!'--we practically mandate that Lebron-Wade-Bosh like teaming occur if a player wants to go down as an all-time great--it won't be enough that eventually a second fiddle good enough to win a championship or two will likely show up if only by chance--not enough rings!

vick
03-13-2013, 12:20 AM
You must be young.

How about this--

30.5 PPG
10.1 RPG
9.7 APG
47.3 FG%

That was Oscar Robertson's ROOKIE SEASON!!

It got better from there. His soph season in the NBA, he averaged a triple double -- 30.8 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 11.4 APG.

It is true that he never shot quite as high as 56% FGs, but he was not a gunner and hit right around 50% of his FGs over his career. They did not have a 3 point shot back then, so comparing that is impossible.


OK, wait though. Yeah Oscar got a lot more rebounds because there were a ton of missed shots floating around. The generally terrible shot selection and shooting percentages that made up 1960s basketball generated a load of opportunities for rebounds. Again using basketball-reference's numbers, the average team missed 64 field goals in 1961, vs. 45 today, or a decrease of nearly a third!

I know some people don't dig advanced stats (I don't think you're among them), but this is exactly why you need them, or at least eyeball-adjust for pace--it seems clearly wrong to ding LeBron just because his contemporaries aren't the brick machines that Oscar's were, relatively speaking.

moonpie23
03-13-2013, 12:46 AM
Of course there isn't proof,



well, do you have any hard evidence? i mean....just SAYING they did is very sniperish.....is there any testimony? anecdotes? anyone every say they SAW mj juicing?

Des Esseintes
03-13-2013, 01:29 AM
Of course there isn't proof, given that the NBA was even more blind to PED use in the 90's than MLB was. NBA athletes weren't tested for anything back then. So chalk my post up to disallowed rumor mongoring and delete it if it makes you feel better. Then ask yourself whether the most competitive athlete of all time, who took nealy two full years off from competition, then came back and dominated the league in his early-to-mid 30's while starting every game his team played, would not have sought every conceivable edge over his competition. I lived in Chicago in the 90's. As their careers progressed, MJ and Pippen became obsessed with strength training as a way to sustain their effectiveness - their workouts were legendary. If you want to believe they were fueling themselves with nothing but Gatorade, be my guest. In my book, the fact that they were able to achieve such a high level of performance at an advanced age suggests otherwise. Apply the Barry Bonds test if you want to - look at a picture of MJ at 32 years old (the Bulls 72-10 season) and compare it to his rookie year. See the difference?

My general advice would be - get over it. Almost every elite athlete from the 80's and 90's juiced, including the ones we want to believe were clean. Michael Jordan. Carl Lewis. Nolan Ryan. The list is endless. That's just the nature of high level athletic competition - every possible advantage will be utilized.

I pretty much agree. Sometime ago, there was a survey of Olympic athletes, and they were asked, "If there was a substance you could take that would kill you in 10 years but would make you an Olympic gold medalist, would you take it?" The answers came back overwhelmingly in the affirmative. If Michael Jordan was aware of steroids (indubitably) and convinced of their effectiveness (highly probable) I really see no way the guy forwent them. Michael Jordan would shoot you in the face to win at pinball. Taking a banned substance that no one cared about and barely tested for? It's a fait accompli.

There's also the uncomfortable fact that there is basically no evidence that taking steroids in a controlled manner under physician's oversight poses a health risk. The physician's oversight is a big caveat, obviously, but nevertheless it remains very unclear whether steroids are bad for you or at least any worse for you than a million legal substances.

Des Esseintes
03-13-2013, 01:44 AM
Yup, I had totally forgotten about how this dude started passing the ball later in his career. This is a season waaaaay better than what Lebron is doing this year.

24.1 PPG
24.2 RPG
7.8 APG
68.3% FG

or, the very next year,

24.3 PPG
23.8 RPG
8.6 APG
59.5% FG

Those are the 1966-67 and 1967-68 seasons of Wilt the Stilt. After he got traded to Philly, he started passing a lot more and was able to put up assist numbers very similar to Lebron's. Of course, he was rebounding at a rate that Bron-Bron could not dream of achieving.

-Jason "how about that FG% for Wilt!!! Whew!" Evans

Those are amazing numbers, but you can't compare the NBA of 2013 and 1967 straight up. The game was vastly, vastly different. Chamberlain was an all-world athlete in a league that had nowhere near the density of great athletes that it has now. Each game had a million possessions, and the center put up a shot on almost every one of them. Holding that rebound total against LeBron is like saying Pedro Martinez sucks because Cy Young won 500 games and Pedro never even won 30 in a season. Or, conversely, that Johnny Unitas sucked because he never threw for a fraction as many TDs in a season as Brady and had a way lower completion percentage, too.

Somebody said the level of play has been watered down in recent years, but this could not be further from the truth. The NBA is drawing from a global talent pool now, and the system of player development, as much as people like to heap contempt on the American AAU complex, is far more robust than it used to be. As is the sophistication of NBA offense and defense. Seriously, go back and watch a Finals game from '91. If you think it's remotely as easy to score today as it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago, I don't know what to tell you.

throatybeard
03-13-2013, 02:03 AM
After MJ's nastiness towards us in the ESPN Documentary after the Eve Carson disaster, I hate to defend the [expletive dude]. I used to like him until he was so vocally nasty towards Duke.

BUT.

Basketball is different, because finesse matters so much in shooting form. And MJ always looked lanky. And he wasn't hitting home runs at 41. His real career--throw out that Wizards stuff, ended at the not-unusual age of 35. And those last couple years, there were no 1980s-type drives to the basket, just expert, veteran crafty fadeaways.

Look, I don't like the guy, but I'd eat my hat if he was juicing in 1995-98.

Des Esseintes
03-13-2013, 02:29 AM
After MJ's nastiness towards us in the ESPN Documentary after the Eve Carson disaster, I hate to defend the [expletive dude]. I used to like him until he was so vocally nasty towards Duke.

BUT.

Basketball is different, because finesse matters so much in shooting form. And MJ always looked lanky. And he wasn't hitting home runs at 41. His real career--throw out that Wizards stuff, ended at the not-unusual age of 35. And those last couple years, there were no 1980s-type drives to the basket, just expert, veteran crafty fadeaways.

Look, I don't like the guy, but I'd eat my hat if he was juicing in 1995-98.

Sure, basketball is different from football and baseball, and Jordan always looked lanky. But cycling is also different from football and baseball, and post-cancer Lance Armstrong has always looked lanky. Performance enhancing drugs can help you to do more than get "all swole," to borrow a phrase from that great poet and steroid abstainee A. Iverson. Steroids help you work out harder and longer. Any hard-training athlete would dig that. Steroids help you recover faster. Also very useful. Steroids help build lean muscle mass. Jordan was famous for his 2% body fat, right? They help make you more explosive. Extremely useful, even for a player who drove less as he aged.

Further, Jordan's age-35 retirement doesn't mean much, because he left entirely on his own terms. In '96, he led the league in Win Shares. Did the same in '97. Slipped all the way to #2 in '98. The first two of those years production-wise are indistinguishable from his late 20s, normally a player's prime, and the third year was only a slight falling off. Maybe he didn't use steroids. But I have to ask: knowing what we do about the man's personality, knowing how prevalent were steroids in major sports at the time, knowing the laxity of testing, what would Occam's Razor suggest?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-13-2013, 09:14 AM
Sure, basketball is different from football and baseball, and Jordan always looked lanky. But cycling is also different from football and baseball, and post-cancer Lance Armstrong has always looked lanky. Performance enhancing drugs can help you to do more than get "all swole," to borrow a phrase from that great poet and steroid abstainee A. Iverson. Steroids help you work out harder and longer. Any hard-training athlete would dig that. Steroids help you recover faster. Also very useful. Steroids help build lean muscle mass. Jordan was famous for his 2% body fat, right? They help make you more explosive. Extremely useful, even for a player who drove less as he aged.

Further, Jordan's age-35 retirement doesn't mean much, because he left entirely on his own terms. In '96, he led the league in Win Shares. Did the same in '97. Slipped all the way to #2 in '98. The first two of those years production-wise are indistinguishable from his late 20s, normally a player's prime, and the third year was only a slight falling off. Maybe he didn't use steroids. But I have to ask: knowing what we do about the man's personality, knowing how prevalent were steroids in major sports at the time, knowing the laxity of testing, what would Occam's Razor suggest?

I'm going to just flat out ignore the Jordan/steroids part of this thread, because at best it is wildly speculative, and at worst it is just mean-spirited.

As far as Lebron's season goes, it's flat out phenomenal. The fact that we are pointing towards similar seasons by the greatest ever to play the game 40 years ago shows how special it is. I'm not sure why there's this current cultural need to rank everything to determine what the best ever is. Why can't we just say "wow, Lebron is doing something really special." I guess it doesn't make for very exciting board posts.

I blame ESPN for their constant need to rank and evaluate everything (meaningless in-season "bracketology," best NCAA tourney players of all-time, Lebron v. Jordan, etc. etc.) It's an obvious ratings ploy, just to get 90's Bulls fans, Christian Laettner fans, Jimmy V fans - whoever - all riled up with phone calls and comments about how their team/player was so much better. Leaving aside that there's simply no way to gauge how players would fare across different eras (maybe Kobe wouldn't do well in the tiny shorts of the 70's! Perhaps Wilt would have been out-muscled in the paint by Dwight Howard. How much success would our late 90's Devils have against Miami's big veterans? It makes for somewhat interesting discussion I suppose, but it's really not much more than navel gazing talk radio fodder.

/gets off soap box
//LeBron is having a phenomenal season by any standard

Go Duke!

moonpie23
03-13-2013, 10:10 AM
After MJ's nastiness towards us in the ESPN Documentary after the Eve Carson disaster,

i missed that.....what did he say?

Billy Dat
03-13-2013, 10:17 AM
The last hurdle LeBron faces is whether he's willing to go on the juice in his 30's the way Jordan did

First off, cptnflash, thanks for starting my day with a huge laugh (no sarcasm). This statement was completely unexpected and caught me off guard. Classic.


Performance enhancing drugs can help you to do more than get "all swole," to borrow a phrase from that great poet and steroid abstainee A. Iverson.

I also have to praise Des' use of "swole" as I believe it is the first time I have read it on DBR. Well done, sir. To comment on both points, history is showing us that we'll never know whether or not any jock took PEDs. Granted, flash has no tangible evidence, but the points he and Des and others have made about steroids, let alone HGH which is a real rapid-recovery agent, are not completely apocryphal. I have heard a lot of recent chatter about Tiger Woods transformation from skinny teen to swole 22 year old. Yes it's rumor mongering, but I think the evolution from the Sosa/McGwire/Bonds PED scandals to the Lance Armstrong scandal is rapidly closing the gap between recognized physical transformation and questions about PED use. Ray Lewis' recent amazing comeback from injury is a classic example, people started to question it nearly as soon as he stepped back on the field.


Honest question: how much do championships matter in this discussion (or do they matter at all)?

I am in the "they are essential to the debate" camp. Basketball is one of the few team sports where an individual can really carry a team. It can't be done alone, but the greatest players can often get mediocre supporting casts to the finals, as Lebron did with the Cavs. I think winning titles and MVPs are the two big chips. Lebron is closing in on his 4th, he's been to the Finals 3 times and won once. In years when you don't win the MVP, you need to make first team All NBA to show consistency (at some point, like Jordan, he's not going to win MVPs simply because people will start taking his performance for granted) I think he needs to get to that 4+ titles range to have a real GOAT discussion - but he's on the path. As Tiger Woods has shown with the Nicklaus majors chase, we can't assume he'll get there until he gets there. I think there is a 3rd intangible that works against Shaq and works for Kobe. People want the greatest players to have that fire in the belly - to get every ounce out of their talent and burn only to win, win, win. Russell had it, Bird and Magic did, Jordan did, Kobe does. Shaq did not - at least at the level of the other greats. The knock on Lebron "pre 'Decision'" was that he didn't either. But I think the post-Decision crucible and his under-performance in the 2011 Finals really changed him. He slayed those demons in last year's run to the title, picked up some Team USA seasoning throughout the process and has now entered, as K said in the SI Sportsman of the Year Lebron profile, "A Level of Mastery". Another piece of it is the desire to see these guys achieve an intangible "playing the game the right way" - which is maximizing their individual talents while elevating the play of those around them. Kobe and Jordan are sort of on the wrong side of this equation from trust of teammates perspective - but Jordan inspired such fear in his teammates that they raised their level of play just to avoid his scorn and ridicule. Kobe spent most of his career as a maniacal ballhog. Interesting that it took Big Chief Triangle, Phil Jackson, to try and tame them both which made sense because Kobe basically modeled his entire career - style of play and demeanor - on MJ. But we want our greats to make those around them better by great sharing of the ball, etc. Finally, I think we also want our greats to have a sense of the moment, to play their best on the biggest stage, to make those memorable plays or have epic performances that help win titles - Jordan's steal on Malone and jumper over Russell, Bird's stealing the in bounds pass from Zeke and hitting DJ for the layup, Magic's baby sky hook over the Celtics front line, etc. If you repeatedly shrink in the huge moment, you can't be an all-timer.

And as for the comparisons with players from other eras, I think Des made some great points that I agree with. Also, if we add defense to the equation, which is 50% of the game, I think Lebron/Russell/Jordan/Kobe get elevated further.

JasonEvans
03-13-2013, 10:22 AM
Those are amazing numbers, but you can't compare the NBA of 2013 and 1967 straight up.

I agree and you make great points about the global reach of NBA basketball today. I merely put up the historical figures to reply to the person who started the thread by posting Lebron's numbers and saying "no one" had ever had a season like that. It took me a matter of minutes to find several statistically comparable and superior seasons, albeit from some of the true greats of the game.

Lebron is amazing and putting himself into the "greatest ever" conversation, but the notion that we have never seen someone have the kind of season he is having is misguided. Heck, Grant Hill was doing darn near the same thing much of his early career in Detroit... he just didn't have Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, and a cast of great role players next to him to help lead the team all the way to the NBA finals.

-Jason "I too am staying out of the Jordan PED debate, as I think it is quite unseemly to discuss without any evidence whatsoever" Evans

nocilla
03-13-2013, 10:29 AM
no one.....


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %


i guess we ARE all witnessing....

I know this wasn't intended to start the Jordan vs Lebron debate, but it seems to be inevitable. (and I didn't get to discuss it around MJ's birthday)
If Lebron can continue the path he is on it would diminish the argument that Jordan used PEDs, unless Lebron uses them as well. In my opinion, if Lebron continues to play like this for another 6-7 years then he will surpass MJ, although health concerns and mental aspects could prevent that. Considering the following;
Lebron is 28 years old. MJ turned 28 during the 90-91 season. When that season ended MJ had his first ring along with a finals mvp and his second league mvp. The current season is not over yet and Lebron already has one ring, a finals mvp and 3 league mvps. It wouldn't be a stretch to think he adds another ring and mvp this season. Which puts him ahead of Jordan's pace age wise. Jordan did start his career 2 years older than Lebron so maybe it is closer to being even. But that goes into whether you consider Lebron's first 2 years as time he would have been learning the game in college like MJ or that the extra games will lead to an earlier decline in his abilities. The other argument is that when MJ retired the second time he was still close to top form, so how many more rings would he have won in those 3 off years and the baseball year.

MJ's '91 season:
31.5 PPG
6.0 RPG
5.5 APG
53.9 FG%
31.2 3pt FG%

COYS
03-13-2013, 10:43 AM
OK, wait though. Yeah Oscar got a lot more rebounds because there were a ton of missed shots floating around. The generally terrible shot selection and shooting percentages that made up 1960s basketball generated a load of opportunities for rebounds. Again using basketball-reference's numbers, the average team missed 64 field goals in 1961, vs. 45 today, or a decrease of nearly a third!

I know some people don't dig advanced stats (I don't think you're among them), but this is exactly why you need them, or at least eyeball-adjust for pace--it seems clearly wrong to ding LeBron just because his contemporaries aren't the brick machines that Oscar's were, relatively speaking.

Vick, you're right on here. While I agree with Jason that going on raw statistics alone it is impossible to beat someone like Wilt in his best years. However, the NBA has changed so much over the decades that comparing Wilt's stats to Lebron's this season is similar to comparing pitching stats from the dead ball era in baseball to stats from the live ball era. It takes sports a long time to evolve. Baseball began to become semi-professional as early as the 1840's and then became well organized at the professional and semi-pro level by the 1870's. By the time Babe Ruth came around and the dead-ball era was put to bed, forever, the sport had been around for 75+ years, already, with 30+ years of professional baseball. The NBA has been around since 1946, which really isn't that long when compared to baseball. Obviously, it's gone through a lot of changes since then. In some ways, Jordan is the Babe Ruth of the NBA. He became the biggest superstar right as the sport was transforming itself into its modern form. Wilt's numbers are unbelievable and likely will stand as unbreakable records (I don't see Lebron averaging much above 30 ppg, much less 44.8). However, he played in an entirely different era. I'm not saying that Wilt's stats aren't as impressive, of course. However, I DO think it is possible to compare Lebron's accomplishments to Wilt's (and Russell's, Bird's, Magic's, Jordan's, and Robinson's) and to claim that no one in the modern era of the NBA has put up similar numbers (although, I point to some of Jordan's seasons in the late 80's and early 90's as a counter-argument).

slower
03-13-2013, 10:44 AM
I'm going to just flat out ignore the Jordan/steroids part of this thread, because at best it is wildly speculative, and at worst it is just mean-spirited

Mean-spirited? To Jordan? Who cares? He's a complete d-bag.

IBleedBlue
03-13-2013, 10:55 AM
When Heat won the championship last season, Lebron made a comment that was more accurate and I felt he has turned the corner. He mentioned to one of the tv analyst that difference between previous season and this season was he started playing for the love of the game rather than the for the expectations, criticism and playing angry. And as soon as he made that switch, he felt more at peace and his production went up. I watched that interview and thought he made good remarks but he is saying what everyone says after winning something.
I kept following his interviews on and off through out this season and i think he really meant it. He now talks very positively in every interview, coming off as being very humble and it is clear that he is playing for the game he loves rather than with the sole goal of standing up to some one else's expectations. When someone turns that corner, things like the season we are seeing will inevitably happen!!

JasonEvans
03-13-2013, 11:00 AM
no one in the modern era of the NBA has put up similar numbers (although, I point to some of Jordan's seasons in the late 80's and early 90's as a counter-argument).

What about Bird, Magic, and Grant Hill each of whom had several somewhat similar statistical seasons to what Lebron is doing right now?

-JE

roywhite
03-13-2013, 11:00 AM
When Heat won the championship last season, Lebron made a comment that was more accurate and I felt he has turned the corner. He mentioned to one of the tv analyst that difference between previous season and this season was he started playing for the love of the game rather than the for the expectations, criticism and playing angry. And as soon as he made that switch, he felt more at peace and his production went up. I watched that interview and thought he made good remarks but he is saying what everyone says after winning something.
I kept following his interviews on and off through out this season and i think he really meant it. He now talks very positively in every interview, coming off as being very humble and it is clear that he is playing for the game he loves rather than with the sole goal of standing up to some one else's expectations. When someone turns that corner, things like the season we are seeing will inevitably happen!!

There's somebody we know who has been very helpful and important in LeBron's maturation and development --- Mike Krzyzewski.

jv001
03-13-2013, 11:04 AM
There's somebody we know who has been very helpful and important in LeBron's maturation and development --- Mike Krzyzewski.

System would not let me give you a like, roy. So great point as I'm sure that Coach K has had a great impact on Labron and several other NBA stars. We are truly blessed. GoDuke!

mgtr
03-13-2013, 11:09 AM
I am about the only one who brings up Rick Barry around here. Of course, he messed himself up with the switch to the ABA for his 3rd season (which he had to sit out). However, he put up some pretty good numbers in 1966-67, his second and last year in the NBA (pre-consolidation).

35.6 PPG
9.1 RPG
3.6 APG
45.1% FG%
88.4% FT%

He was also league MVP and All-star game MVP that year.

There was no 3 point shot in the NBA then, and all fouls on an offensive player resulted in free throws. Since Barry drove to the basket a lot (with some remarkable twisting underhand shots), he got a lot of free throw attempts. Early in MJs career, I thought of him as a black Rick Barry, but obviously he made far more of his talent than Barry.

I lived outside SF at the time, and saw him play in person a good bit. I believe he also had three 57 point games that same year.

toooskies
03-13-2013, 12:09 PM
Better year than Lebron?

32.0 ppg
53.1 FG%
34.4 3FG%
14.6 RPG
1.7 SPG

Who could it be? It's.... Shavlik Randolph for Foshan LL in China this year!

hurleyfor3
03-13-2013, 12:38 PM
OK, no more discussion of unsubstantiated rumors about Jordan. I lived in Chicago in the 1990s and heard all the rumors too, but that wasn't one of them. Other documented aspects of his personality (gambling, treatment of certain media members) are fair game. Topic is LeBron vs. Michael. Carry on.

vick
03-13-2013, 12:47 PM
What about Bird, Magic, and Grant Hill each of whom had several somewhat similar statistical seasons to what Lebron is doing right now?

-JE

I'd probably only really consider Jordan's best season on par with LeBron 2013. I grabbed what I thought are the five best seasons (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=birdla01&y1=1986&p2=jamesle01&y2=2013&p3=jordami01&y3=1991&p4=hillgr01&y4=1997&p5=johnsma02&y5=1987) for each of these players (86 Bird, 87 Magic, 91 Jordan, 97 Grant, 13 LeBron--you could find a similar season for each but I don't think the analysis would change). LeBron detaches himself from the group with his unreal efficiency--he has the highest "raw" field goal percentage despite the fact that he has the highest percentage of three point attempts of any of the five, which gives him a massive advantage in eFG% (5%--roughly the gap between the most efficient shooting team in the league this year, the Heat, and the 13th best, the Celtics). Jordan tightens, and possibly overcomes, the gap by getting to the line frequently and shooting a high percentage there, as well as his extremely high usage rate (lets others be more efficient), not turning the ball over, and with steals (both are/were great "non-statistical" defenders). But the others...they had great seasons, but not on the same level, IMO.

COYS
03-13-2013, 01:01 PM
What about Bird, Magic, and Grant Hill each of whom had several somewhat similar statistical seasons to what Lebron is doing right now?

-JE

For this response, I'm going to use Basketball-Reference's database on single season PER: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

Grant's best season was awesome, but still short of what Lebron is doing right now or what Jordan did in '88 or '90 based on both raw numbers and PER. Larry Bird's best season by PER (and granted, I recognize that PER is not a perfect statistic, but it is a good way to control for pace) was the '87-'88 season, which was also when he scored his career best 29.9 points per game. However, his ridiculously good PER of 27.7 that season is still below that of Lebron's this year (so far) and five other of Lebron's best years. PER gets less reliable the farther back you go but as of now, the top 10 best seasons by PER (according basketball-reference) are all held by either Lebron, Wilt, or Jordan. Grant's best season ranks only 130th all time in PER. Magic's best season comes in at only 76th. I will concede a few caveats. I feel that PER makes it a little bit easier for big men to rise high in the rankings, since a guard can be sensational and still not grab rebounds at a particularly high rate. Also, it is also debatable whether or not PER is the best statistic to decide a player's "best" season. Since, as I believe I understand, PER is re-calibrated each season so that 15 is the league average, the best season by any single player in PER means only that it is that player's best season relative to the league that year. If the NBA was in fact far better in terms of talent level in the late 80's, then it is possible that Lebron would have a lower PER this year. On the other hand, the fact that Jordan posted higher PERs as a contemporary of Bird would indicate that Jordan was probably better, even as good as Larry Legend was.

However, despite these shortcomings, PER is still useful to differentiate between performances when raw statistics are so close. If Magic, Grant, and Bird were all closely ranked with Lebron in PER or if we were comparing them to Wilt, who played in an era where stat-keeping was incomplete making PER ratings far more suspect, I'd be more likely to say that those guys can also challenge Lebron, Jordan, and Wilt for best individual season ever honors. However, there is quite a disparity, which makes me less likely to think that Grant, Bird, and Magic can really challenge for the top spot. Those guys were great and I think convincing arguments can be made that some of their seasons were about as good as Lebron's this year or Jordan's in his best years. But, if you think PER and other advanced stats carry much weight, it still seems that Lebron this year (and actually his '09 season was even better by PER), Jordan, and Wilt had years that were a cut above.

I know this kind of tanks some of my previous arguments, but as a side note, this debate about best seasons is really interesting because I do think that point guards are a little undervalued by advanced stats and even by raw numbers. Most of the time, the point guard is the least likely to crash the glass as he's the most likely to be back to prevent the other team from getting out in transition. There are obvious exceptions, such as Magic and Jason Kidd. However, to me, Magic's career 24.11 PER (13th all time) is probably more impressive than it appears because he was able to earn those numbers playing a position that does not often lead to good rebound numbers. What is even more stunning is that the much smaller Chris Paul has a career PER of 25.51, good for 7th ALL TIME! We all know Chris Paul has been good, but is it possible he's actually the best point guard ever and one of the best individual players of all time?

As a side note,

Indoor66
03-13-2013, 02:08 PM
When Heat won the championship last season, Lebron made a comment that was more accurate and I felt he has turned the corner. He mentioned to one of the tv analyst that difference between previous season and this season was he started playing for the love of the game rather than the for the expectations, criticism and playing angry. And as soon as he made that switch, he felt more at peace and his production went up.

I wonder if K was part of that trasformation. I would bet he was.

flyingdutchdevil
03-13-2013, 02:15 PM
I wonder if K was part of that trasformation. I would bet he was.

Sure, but the timeline doesn't make sense. Coach K didn't coach Lebron during the summer of 2011 (Lebron's so-called transformation) and Lebron wasn't part of the 2010 World Championship team. I'm sure that Lebron and K talk on the phone from time-to-time, but it's important to note that Lebron is surrounded by some of the most influential people in basketball (both good and bad), and Coach K only has had a snippet of his time last year.

UrinalCake
03-13-2013, 02:17 PM
I wonder if K was part of that trasformation. I would bet he was.

Durant made a similar leap from Star to Super-Duper-Star after playing for Coach K at the World Championships in 2010. Several members of that team improved dramatically - Westbrook, Love, Chandler come to mind. It's possible we might have a coach who knows a thing or two about basketball 8-).

moonpie23
03-13-2013, 02:26 PM
You must be young.

How about this--

30.5 PPG
10.1 RPG
9.7 APG
47.3 FG%



far from young, but not old....

my initial reason for listing all 5 categories was to suggest that no one had bested lebron in all five......his COLLECTIVE work and being able to play all 5 positions is what, to me, separating him from anyone else...


is there anyone that beats him with ALL five stats?


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %

vick
03-13-2013, 02:38 PM
is there anyone that beats him with ALL five stats?


26.7 PPG
8.10 RPG
7.1 APG
56.2 FG%
40.4 3PT FG %

Nope. In fact, you don't even need the three point percentage--LeBron right now is the only player (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=26&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=8&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=fg_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.55&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g) above 26 PPG, 8 RPG, 7 APG, while shooting over 55%.

You can play around with the cutoffs in the link by clicking 'Show/Hide Search Form.'

Duke09
03-13-2013, 03:48 PM
He is finally putting it all together. Most impressive stat on there for me is the 3PT percentage. That is great improvement. I guess the only weakness left for Lebron is shooting touch on mid-range jumpers. If he can master that it turns him into a player with no weak spots left in his game. .

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe he leads the league, and if he isn't he is top 5, in 2 point percentage on jumpers (15-20ft). He was near the top last season as well

Duvall
03-13-2013, 03:59 PM
After MJ's nastiness towards us in the ESPN Documentary after the Eve Carson disaster, I hate to defend the [expletive dude]. I used to like him until he was so vocally nasty towards Duke.

What did he say? Jordan's pretty unpleasant towards everyone.

NashvilleDevil
03-13-2013, 04:14 PM
After MJ's nastiness towards us in the ESPN Documentary after the Eve Carson disaster, I hate to defend the [expletive dude]. I used to like him until he was so vocally nasty towards Duke.


Are you referring to the HBO documentary and Jordan saying Duke players are good in college but not the pros? That is considered nasty? Prior to that he talked about his respect for Coach K.

Turtleboy
03-13-2013, 04:54 PM
No one? How about Wilt in 61-62?

FG% .506

FT% .613

RPG 25.7

APG 2.4

PPG 50.4 (Not a typo)

SupaDave
03-13-2013, 05:39 PM
Jordan's so awesome that talk of him can hijack Lebron's thread. While I wouldn't be shocked if MJ took a cortisone shot here or there, there is just one way too much documentation to suggest otherwise. His workouts with Tim Grover are the thing of legend and were highly monitored. Not to mention how long it took him to come back from Artest breaking his ribs. Besides, the guys was icing as a religion. They were doing a lot of natural things way ahead of the curve. (btw, NEVER use a person's rookie year as an example for anything. You come into the league malnourished and half-focused. Once you get to the pros it's time to put on the big boy pants.)

BobbyFan
03-13-2013, 05:54 PM
IMO, the recent change in LeBron's game that puts him in more select company is his increased willingness to post up. His subpar footwork is why it was never part of his arsenal to begin with, but his physique and vision make him a force in the post.


No one? How about Wilt in 61-62?

FG% .506

FT% .613

RPG 25.7

APG 2.4

PPG 50.4 (Not a typo)

With the discussion in this thread trending towards LeBron's peak level of play and where it ranks relative to other players', Jordan isn't the only one to be compared to, like the media seems to believe. It's imprecise to suggest that LeBron has surpassed all others but Jordan. Based on players I've watched, Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, and Duncan had the best primes, with LeBron comfortably belonging within this class. And although I didn't watch them, it certainly seems like others including Wilt (as you mentioned) and Abdul Jabbar are up there as well.

JNort
03-13-2013, 07:17 PM
Honest question: how much do championships matter in this discussion (or do they matter at all)? I know that it's a team game, different eras, etc, but to me, titles do have to be part of the discussion. Russell has 11. Jordan and Kareem each have 6. LeBron, so far, has one. I fully expect that he'll win several more, but he kind of needs to in order to vault himself into the above company in my eyes. And while he may well be better in his own right than was Kobe at the same age, Kobe's 5 titles (and the way he led the team, whether or not Shaq wants to admit it, in four of those seasons) remain a big trump card over LeBron for the time being.

Does not matter in the slightest! Rings are just the sprinkles on a delicious cake, they look good and taste good but aren't really necessary to how great the cake is or isn't. Jordan got those rings playing on a big market team as did Kobe. Lebron had to spend his first bunch of years in lowly Cleveland. Yeah they had good seasons while he was there but only because of his greatness! Even super star players need help and the best help he ever got was an aging Shaq. Lebron made Mo Williams an all star for goodness sake!

Mabdul Doobakus
03-13-2013, 11:32 PM
1. I remember hearing LAST YEAR that Lebron's mid range game was 2nd in the league. I obviously can't source this now, but if you believe that, and you believe, as I do, that his midrange game has only improved this year, than you probably don't believe that's a weakness in his game. I don't think his game has any weaknesses. This is coming from a Heat fan who has watched at least half his games the past 3 years. He doesn't have Jordan's resume of last second game winners, I guess. Which is probably more of a fluke than anything else.

2. The Heat won a championship last year with both Bosh and Wade clearly hobbled. They were both big contributors at various points in the Heat's playoff run, but Bosh straight up missed a bunch of games, and Wade was seriously terrible in quite a few games. I don't know if Jordan won any of his championships carrying his supporting pieces to the degree that Lebron did last year. This is not to say that Jordan could not have done it. I mean, they never even went to a Game 7 in the Finals, so he had some wiggle room there. But Lebron truly put the Heat team on his back last year in a way that I'm not sure Jordan ever needed to. Which should pretty much kill any lingering arguments about Lebron not being a winner.

3. Not much has been said about Lebron's defense. But just like Jordan he is the Heat's stopper on key defensive possessions, taking on the other team's best player. And, unlike Jordan, there is pretty much no one in the league that Lebron cannot guard. Both players are/were elite defenders, but Lebron's versatility on defense is a tremendous asset.


I think you could certainly make the argument that Lebron right now is playing better than Jordan ever did, and really that's the only legitimate discussion you can have comparing the two. Lebron can't touch Jordan's legacy right now, but he's only 28, so I don't think it's even reasonable to have that discussion for at least a couple more years.

Starter
03-14-2013, 09:41 AM
I've been a fan of LeBron's for years, since attending a couple of his high school games. As the only player I've ever seen post-Jordan that I thought could possibly eventually stake a claim to being the best player of all time, it's been wonderful watching his evolution. I bought four LeBron t-shirts yesterday, in fact. (At an outlet, so like half price, but still, I ride for the guy.)

But it's going to be very difficult to compare him to Jordan. The eras are so completely different. Yes, international players are better now than they were before, and athletes on the whole are more finely tuned. But the state of big men in the NBA is far worse now than it was back then, and you can make a case that the overall skill level is as well. And Jordan had to deal with hand-checking and various other muggings perpetuated by the Knicks, Pistons and virtually everyone else back then. That ostensibly went away in 2001, when LeBron was a sophomore. Heck, the forearm rule went away in 1997; Jordan had exactly one season unencumbered by that while posting up. Jordan scored 37 points a game one season back when defenders could actually touch an offensive player. Imagine what that version of Jordan would have done with no hand-checking? There's no way he wouldn't have averaged substantially over 40 points.

Besides, cross-comparing across eras is generally a fool's errand. Who was a better player, Barry Bonds -- who faced watered-down pitching and was using performance-enhancing drugs -- or Babe Ruth, who didn't play against black players or the split-fingered fastball?

This isn't to say that at the end of LeBron's career, some of us don't sit back and examine the numbers, recall our various eye tests and specific memories and declare he's the best player of all time. If he wins a few more championships and stays at or near the level he's on for another half-dozen years, one can make a strong case for him. But more likely, we'll look at him as by far the best player of his generation, Jordan by far the best player of his, and the two of them as the greatest players of all time -- along with whatever other Bill Russells people want to throw in -- because it will be nearly impossible to compare the two since their paths never crossed. Regardless of Jordan being an irascible malcontent for the latter portion of his life, he was an absolutely incredible scorer, facilitator, defender and winner, and it will be difficult to put anyone flat-out over him, even a player as transcendent as LeBron.

Couple other things:

-- I have no idea if Jordan used steroids; it honestly never crossed my mind. I imagine he probably didn't, but that if you asked him, he'd tell you he didn't touch the stuff but probably should have considered it at the end if it's seemingly that easy to get away with it. The Wizards years might have gone far better if PEDs had spruced up his knees. Then he'd probably make some bitter offhanded comment about how everyone today is probably doing it.

-- I've always wondered just what it does to someone's psyche and mentality to reach the utmost levels of talent, fame and notoriety. Who was on Jordan's level in terms of sheer genius in their given craft and worldwide recognition? Michael Jackson, for one, who saw his development completely stunted and systematically went insane. Tiger Woods hasn't aged particularly well in any regard. In certain ways, that sort of thing happened to Jordan as well, as he carries himself almost like a child even while enjoying the toys of a very successful adult: cigars, motorcycles, yachts, owning a sports team, lavish condos and mansions. LeBron seemed to be heading down that path, understandably so, given that he was thrown directly from high school to preordained NBA superstardom. The Decision seemed almost a necessary dose of reality that made him realize he had to circle the wagons and shore up his public persona or risk his Q Rating go straight to hell. (I can only imagine what was said about him on this board back around the time of The Decision.) Winning, as always, was a salve in this regard.

-- Jordan has become one of the more difficult public figures to like as time goes on. He always had some weird tendencies, but those were balanced out by winning, plus Madison Avenue's magic paintbrush. The public persona of Jordan as a player was as charming as we've had. Now, he just doesn't give a damn anymore. If you haven't, however, you should check out Wright Thompson's remarkable piece (http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Michael-Jordan/michael-jordan-not-left-building) on Jordan recently. Jordan gave Thompson unprecedented access, and we learned a few things -- such as just how much his father's death affected him, and understandable concept, but one that we likely don't always take the time to consider. (At least I didn't.) Jordan comes off almost as a sympathetic figure; I say almost, because the way he treats people still isn't always justifiable. But at the very least, it presents pretty much the entire essence of who he is, something we rarely see.

JasonEvans
03-14-2013, 11:57 AM
Nope. In fact, you don't even need the three point percentage--LeBron right now is the only player (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=26&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=8&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=fg_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.55&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g) above 26 PPG, 8 RPG, 7 APG, while shooting over 55%.

I am sorry but you guys are just being arbitrary. There are plenty of examples cited in this thread of guys who had far better PPG, RPG, APG than Lebron while shooting maybe a couple percentage points lower from the field. There are examples of players who have better PPG, RPG, and FG% but come up a tad short in assists. You have designed the criteria to specifically fit Lebron's season. It just strikes me as silly.

Wilt had plenty of seasons where I could design criteria that would only fit him. What if I add FT% to the mix and design stats that only Bird (who routinely hit 90+% on his FTs) could best? This is not a productive exercise in my mind and proves little other than the fact that we are talking about the elite players in the history of the game. Lebron is certainly in that conversation at this point, which is great for him and great for fans of basketball.

I just think saying he is having the greatest statistical season of all time -- largely because of he is hitting a couple more shots per hundred than guys who outscored, out-assisted, and out-rebounded him, often by significant margins -- is going a bit too far.

-Jason "to be honest, this debate has gotten to be pointless, in my mind -- Lebron's season is worth celebrating and I love watching him play" Evans

JasonEvans
03-14-2013, 12:07 PM
I think you could certainly make the argument that Lebron right now is playing better than Jordan ever did, and really that's the only legitimate discussion you can have comparing the two. Lebron can't touch Jordan's legacy right now, but he's only 28, so I don't think it's even reasonable to have that discussion for at least a couple more years.

Folks, we are really falling prey to a recency effect here. We are forgetting how great Jordan was back in his day.

Vick posted this:
Nope. In fact, you don't even need the three point percentage--LeBron right now is the only player above 26 PPG, 8 RPG, 7 APG, while shooting over 55%.

In 1988-89, Jordan had the following season:

32.5 PPG
8.0 APG
8.0 RPG
53.8% FG

So, he is about 1 shot per 100 worse than Lebron from the field. Essentially, they are the same in rebounds. Jordan is a bit ahead in assists. Jordan kills in PPG.

The notion that Lebron is "playing better than Jordan ever did" is ridiculous. It is not backed up by anything, even Lebron's gaudy stats. By the way, Jordan was a defensive demon as well, getting 3 steals per game, about twice as many as Lebron, while blocking shots at the same pace Lebron does, even though Bron is 3+ inches taller than Jordan.

-Jason "just minutes ago, I thought I was done with this... and then they went and said Lebron was better than Jordan ever was... and I could not stop myself" Evans

vick
03-14-2013, 12:41 PM
I am sorry but you guys are just being arbitrary. There are plenty of examples cited in this thread of guys who had far better PPG, RPG, APG than Lebron while shooting maybe a couple percentage points lower from the field. There are examples of players who have better PPG, RPG, and FG% but come up a tad short in assists. You have designed the criteria to specifically fit Lebron's season. It just strikes me as silly.

Wilt had plenty of seasons where I could design criteria that would only fit him. What if I add FT% to the mix and design stats that only Bird (who routinely hit 90+% on his FTs) could best? This is not a productive exercise in my mind and proves little other than the fact that we are talking about the elite players in the history of the game. Lebron is certainly in that conversation at this point, which is great for him and great for fans of basketball.

I just think saying he is having the greatest statistical season of all time -- largely because of he is hitting a couple more shots per hundred than guys who outscored, out-assisted, and out-rebounded him, often by significant margins -- is going a bit too far.

-Jason "to be honest, this debate has gotten to be pointless, in my mind -- Lebron's season is worth celebrating and I love watching him play" Evans

A few points:

1) I posted that link to seasons in answer to a direct question about whether anyone had matched those numbers. I explicitly said I'd consider Jordan's best season on par.

2) Arguing about this is more interesting than this dog of a GT-BC game, at least so far.

3) I think you're underestimating how much the shooting percentage difference matters, because you're looking at 'raw' FG%, but frankly, this stat stinks, because it doesn't account for whether a player shoots more three pointers (I am almost certain no one would use it if the game had started with a three point line). Set aside Jordan for a second, because I agree--and PER, WS/48, or whatever advanced stat you use would also agree--that his best seasons were at the very least close to LeBron's level, and possibly surpassed it. I'm also not going to go back to Wilt because the league was so different then. But you're talking about guys like Grant Hill being close, and as much as I love Grant, there's just no way I can accept this. eFG% is by far the most important component of an effective offense, and the gap between LeBron's 59.4% this year vs. Grant's 50.0% in 1997 is absolutely massive--to put in context, 9.4% is bigger than the difference between the best shooting team in the NBA (the Heat at 54.6%) and the worst shooting team (the Bobcats at 45.3%). It's this--the almost-inhuman efficiency with which LeBron is putting up his numbers--that makes it a different class from Bird, Johnson, or Hill. Jordan was also less efficient but had higher volume, which is why I think it is reasonable to put him on the same level.

moonpie23
03-14-2013, 01:30 PM
guys, i put up the stats as a COLLECTION proposal......I'm not trying to say he's better than anyone in particular, i am saying that there is not another player, ever, to best THIS group of stats.......they may be a "couple percentage points shy" here or there, but that's the whole point....they don't BEAT lebron's stats....

Mabdul Doobakus
03-14-2013, 02:11 PM
Folks, we are really falling prey to a recency effect here. We are forgetting how great Jordan was back in his day.

Vick posted this:

In 1988-89, Jordan had the following season:

32.5 PPG
8.0 APG
8.0 RPG
53.8% FG

So, he is about 1 shot per 100 worse than Lebron from the field. Essentially, they are the same in rebounds. Jordan is a bit ahead in assists. Jordan kills in PPG.

The notion that Lebron is "playing better than Jordan ever did" is ridiculous. It is not backed up by anything, even Lebron's gaudy stats. By the way, Jordan was a defensive demon as well, getting 3 steals per game, about twice as many as Lebron, while blocking shots at the same pace Lebron does, even though Bron is 3+ inches taller than Jordan.

-Jason "just minutes ago, I thought I was done with this... and then they went and said Lebron was better than Jordan ever was... and I could not stop myself" Evans

Wow...you completely misconstrued what I was trying to say, which is maybe my fault, and yet I somehow still feel offended by you saying my statement was ridiculous. I was arguing for Jordan's overall supremacy, while saying the ONLY thing you could reasonably compare right now is a snapshot of how Lebron is playing right now compared to Jordan's peak. I'm not even making the argument that Lebron's peak is better than Jordan's peak because I don't want to get dragged into that kind of argument. But it is NOT ridiculous to make that comparison. The game continues to change so a straight up numbers comparison is not entirely sufficient, but even so, it depends on what numbers you want to choose. If you want to base an argument on player efficiency rather than just raw numbers, than you could certainly pick Lebron based on his recent shooting percentages, particularly that string of 10+ 60%+ games he just had. We know Jordan never did that. I'd be interested to see if you could find a month in Jordan's career where he played better than Lebron did in February.

But AGAIN...I am not making the argument that Lebron's peak is better than Jordan's peak. Obviously, narrowing the time focus to a month is pretty arbitrary. I am only bringing this up because I am annoyed that you just dismissed the discussion as ridiculous because I completely disagree.

JasonEvans
03-14-2013, 03:41 PM
I think we are all arguing semantics at this point, which is more than a little pointless. This will really, really, be my last post on the topic.

I want to start by saying I think Lebron is a special basketball player and is taking his place among the greats of the game.


I'd be interested to see if you could find a month in Jordan's career where he played better than Lebron did in February.

Lebron's February--
29.7 PPG
7.5 RPG
7.8 APG
64.1% FGS
43.2% 3FGS

In March of 1989 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/splits/1989/), Jordan posted the following...

28.5 PPG (slightly worse the Lebron)
8.7 RPG (better)
11.2 APG (a lot better)
51.2% FGS (a lot worse)
53.3% 3FGS (a lot better)

Jordan was not much of a 3-point shooter back then, so he did not take many. It makes finding strong 3-pointer months for him a bit tougher. He has plenty of months where he shoots close to 60% from the floor (along with gobs of rebounds and assists) but his 3point percentage is like 2-for-11 which throws the whole thing off if you are obsessed with 3FG% as one of the major metrics that must be a part of this little statistical game.

In March of 2000 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/splits/1990/), Jordan had:

36.4 PPG (a ton better)
8.1 RPG (better)
5.9 APG (worse)
55.2% FGS (a lot worse)
37.3% 3FGS (worse)

And what about Larry Bird, who I actually think is a better comparison to Lebron in terms of size and how they play the game, though Larry was a much better shooter and Lebron is a far more polished athlete.

Anyway, I could not find monthly splits with APG and RPG on many of Larry's great seasons, but I was able to find them for March and April of 1987 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01/splits/1987/). Here is what they show.

March-
29.7 PPG (better)
9.8 RPG (a lot better)
8.3 APG (better)
55.5% FGS (a lot worse)
50.0% 3FGS (better)

April-
33.3 PPG (a lot better)
9.0 RPG (a lot better)
8.9 APG (better)
56.3% FGS (a lot worse)
30.4% 3FGS (worse)

I wish I could find splits on some of Larry's earlier seasons as I suspect we would find a few more eye-popping months. Lebron's FG% in February was truly magnificent. Perhaps that sets the month apart compared to superstars who put up a lot more points, rebounds, and assists per game. I am not looking at EFG and other advanced metrics because... well... it just ain't worth taking that much more time to do so ;)

I want to thank all of the folks for their fine contributions to this discussion. I think we all sorta got caught in a trap of debating numbers, and it is easy to manipulate numbers to suit our needs. Personally, with the ACC tournament here, I don't think any of us need to be chatting about this much further. I gladly give the "other side" the last word now ;)

-Jason "adios, NBA stats! It was fun while I knew ya ;) " Evans

Des Esseintes
03-14-2013, 05:24 PM
But it's going to be very difficult to compare him to Jordan. The eras are so completely different. Yes, international players are better now than they were before, and athletes on the whole are more finely tuned. But the state of big men in the NBA is far worse now than it was back then, and you can make a case that the overall skill level is as well. And Jordan had to deal with hand-checking and various other muggings perpetuated by the Knicks, Pistons and virtually everyone else back then. That ostensibly went away in 2001, when LeBron was a sophomore. Heck, the forearm rule went away in 1997; Jordan had exactly one season unencumbered by that while posting up. Jordan scored 37 points a game one season back when defenders could actually touch an offensive player. Imagine what that version of Jordan would have done with no hand-checking? There's no way he wouldn't have averaged substantially over 40 points.

As usual, I agree with the vast majority of your post. The part I've excerpted above, though, deserves some pushback. Everything you say about the timing of the rules changes is true, but it's important to remember that the Patrileyization of the NBA was not an overnight phenomenon. It took most of the 90s for the clutching and grabbing associated with those terrifying Knick teams to become generalized. For proof, take a look at this table of NBA league averages (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) over the years. Definitely some of Jordan's seasons were in a low scoring environment. His final two Bulls seasons, the league averaged 96.9 and 95.6 points, respectively. Prior to that, however, Jordan's career mostly took place in an offensive era far more prolific than the present. From 1984-85, Jordan's rookie year, to 1992-93, the completion of his first threepeat, the league never averaged less than 105.3 ppg. Some years it was over 110. Since LeBron has been in the league, NBA scoring has peaked at 100.4 Scoring over his second threepeat averaged 97.3 ppg, which is very near, if slightly below, the average offense of LeBron's career thus far. For the most part, Jordan enjoyed a higher-scoring league. When we look at his counting stats, that has to be factored. We can acknowledge that reality and--as vick has ably demonstrated elsewhere--still consider Peak Jordan very much neck-and-neck and possibly superior to Peak James.

So yeah, the rules have been lightened in the past decade. But that has been more than offset (compared to the 80s and early 90s) by a vast increase in overall athleticism and defensive sophistication throughout the league. The league is just smarter and better than it's ever been. Teams foul less, they turn the ball over less, they shoot more and better from deep, they have much tighter defensive rebounding. I'm sorry, but this story about a decline in skill level is just that, a story.

Starter
03-14-2013, 07:42 PM
As usual, I agree with the vast majority of your post. The part I've excerpted above, though, deserves some pushback. Everything you say about the timing of the rules changes is true, but it's important to remember that the Patrileyization of the NBA was not an overnight phenomenon. It took most of the 90s for the clutching and grabbing associated with those terrifying Knick teams to become generalized. For proof, take a look at this table of NBA league averages (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) over the years. Definitely some of Jordan's seasons were in a low scoring environment. His final two Bulls seasons, the league averaged 96.9 and 95.6 points, respectively. Prior to that, however, Jordan's career mostly took place in an offensive era far more prolific than the present. From 1984-85, Jordan's rookie year, to 1992-93, the completion of his first threepeat, the league never averaged less than 105.3 ppg. Some years it was over 110. Since LeBron has been in the league, NBA scoring has peaked at 100.4 Scoring over his second threepeat averaged 97.3 ppg, which is very near, if slightly below, the average offense of LeBron's career thus far. For the most part, Jordan enjoyed a higher-scoring league. When we look at his counting stats, that has to be factored. We can acknowledge that reality and--as vick has ably demonstrated elsewhere--still consider Peak Jordan very much neck-and-neck and possibly superior to Peak James.

So yeah, the rules have been lightened in the past decade. But that has been more than offset (compared to the 80s and early 90s) by a vast increase in overall athleticism and defensive sophistication throughout the league. The league is just smarter and better than it's ever been. Teams foul less, they turn the ball over less, they shoot more and better from deep, they have much tighter defensive rebounding. I'm sorry, but this story about a decline in skill level is just that, a story.

I think these are all stellar points, no argument here.. I'd only add that Jordan was getting absolutely butchered at least by the Pistons as early as 1988, with the Knicks starting to do that with Xavier McDaniel and such not much later. (And far less successfully.) I also think the NBA is set up by design in such a fashion now that the unequivocal best players in the game basically have carte blanche, but Jordan got his share of calls too, so whatever. Good post as always.

vick
03-14-2013, 09:17 PM
I think these are all stellar points, no argument here.. I'd only add that Jordan was getting absolutely butchered at least by the Pistons as early as 1988, with the Knicks starting to do that with Xavier McDaniel and such not much later. (And far less successfully.) I also think the NBA is set up by design in such a fashion now that the unequivocal best players in the game basically have carte blanche, but Jordan got his share of calls too, so whatever. Good post as always.

I thought this was an interesting point, so I decided to look at the top-20 players by PER for four years, 86 (basically Bird peak), 91 (Jordan peak), 98 (the dark days of Rileyball), and 13. PER isn't a perfect stat, of course, but of all the so-called 'advanced' stats it probably comes closest to popular perception. It's scaled so that each year's average player (weighted by minutes) is 15. Here's what I got:

3270

The 1986 curve was systematically lower, which I think makes sense--there were fewer teams in the league (23) than there were in 1991 (27), so there aren't as many 'bad' (by NBA standards) to make the Birds and Magics of the world look relatively better. I still think the way Jordan and later LeBron separated from their peers exceeds those two, but it's worth noting whenever using PER (Win Shares would also have the same issue). But the 1998 curve looks totally different--the top four players (Shaq, Malone, Robinson, and Jordan) are basically where they were in 1991 or 2013, but the 'lesser' stars--the 5th-20th best players in the league--were not nearly as able to distinguish themselves. So maybe the real 'victims' of Rileyball were the Grant Hill, Sam Cassell, Tim Hardaway-type players? Maybe it's a coincidence and it just happened to coincide with the way players' talent was 'naturally' distributed then? Probably some of each, I guess.

Anyway, long story short, I think you're right that the better players are able to distinguish themselves more easily in today's 'cleaner' NBA, and this probably affects the ~5-20th best players--the Tony Parker, Carmelo Anthony, and yes, Kyrie Irving-type players--more than LeBron and Durant. Interesting question though, there's probably other ways to look at it that I haven't thought of.

ETA: I don't know why I can't get the first couple of (slightly wrong) images to go away, but I think the first one is correct.

moonpie23
03-20-2013, 10:17 PM
lebron and heat erase a 27 pt lead by the cavs to keep the streak going

ice-9
03-20-2013, 11:36 PM
-- I've always wondered just what it does to someone's psyche and mentality to reach the utmost levels of talent, fame and notoriety. Who was on Jordan's level in terms of sheer genius in their given craft and worldwide recognition? Michael Jackson, for one, who saw his development completely stunted and systematically went insane. Tiger Woods hasn't aged particularly well in any regard. In certain ways, that sort of thing happened to Jordan as well, as he carries himself almost like a child even while enjoying the toys of a very successful adult: cigars, motorcycles, yachts, owning a sports team, lavish condos and mansions.

Roger Federer? Warren Buffet? Steve Jobs? Shigeru Miyamoto?

I don't think it's a given that those who reached the top are somehow messed up.

Des Esseintes
03-20-2013, 11:51 PM
Roger Federer? Warren Buffet? Steve Jobs? Shigeru Miyamoto?

I don't think it's a given that those who reached the top are somehow messed up.

I agree, and for that matter I think it's hardly a given that Tiger Woods is "messed up." He has a major history of infidelity. That makes him... a professional athlete. Big stretch to go from there to sociopathy.

Tom Brady, Wayne Gretzky, Montana, Coach K, Steffi Graf--lots of folks that reach the pinnacle, stay there, and remain pretty close to human. Jordan and, to a lesser extent, Kobe distort the image of what it takes to be great. There are many paths to Rome.