MBB: Duke 69, UNC 53 Post-Game Thread

[pfrduke]

Seth in the 1st, Mason in the 2nd. We own the Dome.

[Troublemaker]

Oh yeah!

Duh.

Experience!

[hurleyfor3]

Either my teevee's either on a longer delay than yours or you clicked post before the buzzer :mad:

[pamtar]

bwahahahahah! GTHC GTH ES!

[Les Grossman]

I love the sound of Crickets in the Dumb Dome

[DU82]

According to ESPN, the final was Duke 56, UNC 62.

(Last graphic before going to SportsCenter.)

Stuart Scott in charge of stats tonight?

[bbosbbos]

Good game plan & execution.

[FerryFor50]

Why didn't UNC fans rush the court?

Oh yeah. They lost.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I've got 3 words to sum up this game by the Devils:

BACK IN BLACK!!!!

It's the uniforms baby!!!

[BD80]

Why didn't UNC fans rush the court?

Oh yeah. They lost.

The whiney geezers stormed the exits

[millerecu]

Hey Wheat... please tell me how bad Plumlee just was.

Great team game!

[arnie]

Oh yeah!

Duh.

Experience!

Great win. Guess Bilas will help Roy redesign his team to advance far in tourney. They may be conferring now.

[billy]

Speaking of crickets, absolutely no love when Dexter Strickland went out with a minute and change, last game at the dean dome

[WiJoe]

According to ESPN, the final was Duke 56, UNC 62.

(Last graphic before going to SportsCenter.)

Stuart Scott in charge of stats tonight?

WOW! wtf?

[hudlow]

That was one of the best games I've seen Duke play from buzzer to buzzer in a long time.

[TKG]

7 of the last 9.........

[rsvman]

According to ESPN, the final was Duke 56, UNC 62.

(Last graphic before going to SportsCenter.)

Stuart Scott in charge of stats tonight?

Noticed it. Tried to post it in the in-game thread but it was closed.

Great game from tip to buzzer for our guys. Just awesome. Very happy.

[House G]

When did North Carolina give up basketball?

[Papa John]

Who does Roy throw under the bus in the post-game presser?

Also, I couldn't disagree more with Jay's statement that this will still be a tough Carolina team in the postseason. Bottom line, we just gave teams a blueprint on how to hammer the Heels' small lineup. The danger of waiting as long as Roy did to change up your lineup is that when a loss like this happens so late, it's hard to readjust, and hard to help your guys regather their confidence. Happened to us last year...

[CLW]

Hey Wheat... please tell me how bad Plumlee just was.

Great team game!

lol over/under on wheat's return = sometime around july ;)

Kelly has made ALL the difference. Cannot double plumlee so he goes off cannot focus solely on curry he goes off. its pick your poison with those three right now.

rebounding still concerns me though.

[Les Grossman]

Great job by a terrific team. Sure have enjoyed watching this bunch since Nov.

[DU82]

When did North Carolina give up basketball?

When they had to start going to class.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

That was one of the best games I've seen Duke play from buzzer to buzzer in a long time.

2011 ACC Tournament Finals, IMO.

[luvdahops]

7 of the last 9.........

And 24 of the last 35.....

[Les Grossman]

lol over/under on wheat's return = sometime around july ;)

Kelly has made ALL the difference. Cannot double plumlee

that is huge. Someone has to guard the 4.

[CAT Blue Devil]

Nothing stands out to me as much as the very, very, solid victory while only shooting 33% from 3 - and only attempting 15 from behind the arc. Feels good for the post season. Balance, balance, balance.

[davekay1971]

7 of the last 9.........

We'll have to track the rivalry before and after UNC pulled their basketball players out of the AFAM scam.

That game was great. Seth set it off with some insane scoring, then Duke just put the clamps down and never gave Carolina any realistic chance at winning. That was great, great team defense. Carolina had no chance to get anything going tonight.

And that wasn't a great offensive performance by Duke. Great by Plumlee and Curry, but Sheed and Ryan had off nights and we still dominated by 15-20 all game long.

I'm too happy for any better analysis right now. Just an awesome game.

[UT Dukie]

Wheat previously said he wouldn't be able to post until tomorrow regardless of the winner. I'd rather celebrate than worry about challenging others' guesses about matchups personally. Seth put the opponent on their heels early. Final thought: nice job of not dunking with 3 seconds left (or even scoring for that matter).

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Strong, strong rebounding. Love love love it!

[FerryFor50]

We'll have to track the rivalry before and after UNC pulled their basketball players out of the AFAM scam.

That game was great. Seth set it off with some insane scoring, then Duke just put the clamps down and never gave Carolina any realistic chance at winning. That was great, great team defense. Carolina had no chance to get anything going tonight.

And that wasn't a great offensive performance by Duke. Great by Plumlee and Curry, but Sheed and Ryan had off nights and we still dominated by 15-20 all game long.

I'm too happy for any better analysis right now. Just an awesome game.

I dunno. Shooting 66.6% in the first half and 53% for the game seems like a pretty good offensive night...

[diveonthefloor]

According to ESPN, the final was Duke 56, UNC 62.

(Last graphic before going to SportsCenter.)

Stuart Scott in charge of stats tonight?

I came this close to posting the exact same comment!!!
Seriously if truth were told, I can almost guarantee that the final score graphic was intentional and very likely placed by a UNC grad. Would be interesting to find out if his boss thinks it is as amusing as he apparently did.

[FerryFor50]

Crap. Digger picked us for the final four. We're doomed.

[hurleyfor3]

Digger just called us to play in the national championship game and Jay said we were the best team in the country. Not sure whether that's good or bad.

[Billy Dat]

We couldn't miss early, maybe it was just that Curry couldn't miss early. This was a great game to run out to a huge lead. The array of shots Curry was hitting was insane.

Mason was a monster in the second half.

I really want to single out Quinn Cook. I thought he played a really great game running the team, and made two huge buckets down the stretch when they were making a run.

I can't tell if our defense was good or their offense was just really bad. UNC did not play well at all tonight, in any facet of the game.

Interesting to see Tyler get the start and Rasheed to play so little. K was leaning on the upperclassmen big time. Cook was the only Duke Freshman or Soph to play meaningful minutes.

Just having Kelly on the court forces a team to defend differently, whether he is having a good offensive game or not.

Great win, but did anyone else feel like I did...all I wanted was for the clock to run out. Games where 20 point leads don't feel safe for no rationale reason always put me on edge. I guess that's the nature of the rivalry. It was also nice to get the benefit of the whistles tonight. I felt like the net impact of the calls went our way, which is great on the road.

If the ACC tournament goes according to seed, we'll see the Heels in the semis and I sure it will be a closer game than this one.

Great regular season, fellas. What's sweeter then winning in the Dome?

[MCFinARL]

According to ESPN, the final was Duke 56, UNC 62.

(Last graphic before going to SportsCenter.)

Stuart Scott in charge of stats tonight?

ESPN, which earlier in the day had a graphic about the "Kentucky Wilcats." Not sure what they are drinking over there.

[dukelifer]

It was a dream after all- I woke up and saw this final score on the screen. 3257

[JayBean]

To Wheat's credit, he did say that Kelly wouldn't be able to contain PJ Hairston.

Hairston did seem to have a good game. It was the rest of his team that got stopped.

[NashvilleDevil]

To Wheat's credit, he did say that Kelly wouldn't be able to contain PJ Hairston.

Hairston did seem to have a good game. It was the rest of his team that got stopped.

14 points on 4/12 shooting. That's seems good?

[FerryFor50]

We couldn't miss early, maybe it was just that Curry couldn't miss early. This was a great game to run out to a huge lead. The array of shots Curry was hitting was insane.

Mason was a monster in the second half.

I really want to single out Quinn Cook. I thought he played a really great game running the team, and made two huge buckets down the stretch when they were making a run.

I can't tell if our defense was good or their offense was just really bad. UNC did not play well at all tonight, in any facet of the game.

Interesting to see Tyler get the start and Rasheed to play so little. K was leaning on the upperclassmen big time. Cook was the only Duke Freshman or Soph to play meaningful minutes.

Just having Kelly on the court forces a team to defend differently, whether he is having a good offensive game or not.

Great win, but did anyone else feel like I did...all I wanted was for the clock to run out. Games where 20 point leads don't feel safe for no rationale reason always put me on edge. I guess that's the nature of the rivalry. It was also nice to get the benefit of the whistles tonight. I felt like the net impact of the calls went our way, which is great on the road.

If the ACC tournament goes according to seed, we'll see the Heels in the semis and I sure it will be a closer game than this one.

Great regular season, fellas. What's sweeter then winning in the Dome?

That was Ayers making up for the UVA garbage.

[KandG]

Ryan was so important for the offensive spacing to work as well as it did today, but he really didn't have that great a game and made some uncharacteristic mental mistakes. Still a win, and you had to expect a sub-par game at some point after not playing for so long. Better to get it out of the way now. To his credit, he avoided any more fouls after picking up 3 in the first half and was more solid as the game went on.

I thought Tyler Thornton quietly had a huge game, which made up for Rasheed's offense being MIA.

Put bubble wrap around Kelly and Curry to keep them healthy for the next week, and get Sheed and Amile some playing time in the early games next weekend to give them confidence for the NCAAs. GTHC!!

[JayBean]

14 points on 4/12 shooting? That's seems good?

Okay, good point. :)

[greybeard]

lol over/under on wheat's return = sometime around july ;)

Kelly has made ALL the difference. Cannot double plumlee so he goes off cannot focus solely on curry he goes off. its pick your poison with those three right now.

rebounding still concerns me though.

Duke started Tyler. Although he made his first 3, he is not scaring anyone so there is your double if you want it. Rashead comes in and no difference. Seth was killing people, as was Plumlee. I like Ryan as much as the next guy, but I do not think that it's accurate to say that Plumlee did not play a terrific offensive game independent of who was on the floor. Began the game with a righty jump hook from the right block, later made one from the left block, had a spin move that was equally unstoppable, drop stepped, and lobs off plays called for him because his defender HAD to try to beat him to his spot on the otherside of the lane when the ball was on the wing on that side, or when Curry penetrated.

Plumlee had a great game, imo. Ryan, not so much.

[dukelifer]

To Wheat's credit, he did say that Kelly wouldn't be able to contain PJ Hairston.

Hairston did seem to have a good game. It was the rest of his team that got stopped.

Wheat called this game. Kelly was pretty average tonight and UNC could not stop Curry and the paid a big price. Pretty much sums it up.

[miramar]

It was funny to see the Carolina crowd get excited when they cut the lead to under 15.

That's a really bad sign at any time, but it's even worse on senior night.

[UrinalCake]

Team played with great energy and when you're hitting shots and outworking your opponent, good things happen. A microcosm of the game was Quinn's great defensive play to dive for that loose ball and bounce it off Bullock's foot. Bullock just stood there and then after the play tried to complain to the ref.

I really wasn't expecting us to win so comfortably. To make it even sweeter, Andrew Wiggins was at the game to witness the crickets chirping.

[CLW]

Duke started Tyler. Although he made his first 3, he is not scaring anyone so there is your double if you want it. Rashead comes in and no difference. Seth was killing people, as was Plumlee. I like Ryan as much as the next guy, but I do not think that it's accurate to say that Plumlee did not play a terrific offensive game independent of who was on the floor. Began the game with a righty jump hook from the right block, later made one from the left block, had a spin move that was equally unstoppable, drop stepped, and lobs off plays called for him because his defender HAD to try to beat him to his spot on the otherside of the lane when the ball was on the wing on that side, or when Curry penetrated.

Plumlee had a great game, imo. Ryan, not so much.

Sure if you want to double the Sheed/Thornton guy is the obvious choice but Sheed is shooting 39% from 3 this year and Thornton is also a respectable 37% those aren't great odds either. The doubles were a much easier call when its Hairston/Jefferson's man.

[FerryFor50]

Duke started Tyler. Although he made his first 3, he is not scaring anyone so there is your double if you want it. Rashead comes in and no difference. Seth was killing people, as was Plumlee. I like Ryan as much as the next guy, but I do not think that it's accurate to say that Plumlee did not play a terrific offensive game independent of who was on the floor. Began the game with a righty jump hook from the right block, later made one from the left block, had a spin move that was equally unstoppable, drop stepped, and lobs off plays called for him because his defender HAD to try to beat him to his spot on the otherside of the lane when the ball was on the wing on that side, or when Curry penetrated.

Plumlee had a great game, imo. Ryan, not so much.

Yea but the double team never came. Plumlee is pretty unstoppable one on one.

[FerryFor50]

Team played with great energy and when you're hitting shots and outworking your opponent, good things happen. A microcosm of the game was Quinn's great defensive play to dive for that loose ball and bounce it off Bullock's foot. Bullock just stood there and then after the play tried to complain to the ref.

I really wasn't expecting us to win so comfortably. To make it even sweeter, Andrew Wiggins was at the game to witness the crickets chirping.

That was Tyler, btw. :)

[nmduke2001]

Not to rub it in, but this made me laugh

[CLW]

That was Tyler, btw. :)

indeed Tyler does the little things so well our own fans don't even notice it when he does it. he's obviously not a star but plays hard all the time and seems to have a knack for coming up with big effort plays.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Strong, strong rebounding. Love love love it!

[jipops]

Quinn had a nice floor game tonight. He was more of a pg tonight than the last several. His two drives at the erased any doubt by irrationals like me.

Ryan didn't have a very good game but his presence was big. He did have some scores underneath as well as some big boards.

I loved our defense tonight. They got very few good looks from 3 and we really cut off their drives.

[Troublemaker]

Wheat called this game. Kelly was pretty average tonight and UNC could not stop Curry and the paid a big price. Pretty much sums it up.

Wheat was very, very far off from "calling this game" correctly. If he said 15 things about the game, 13 of them were wrong. You're just somehow only remembering the two he got right.

[FerryFor50]

Quinn had a nice floor game tonight. He was more of a pg tonight than the last several. His two drives at the erased any doubt by irrationals like me.

Ryan didn't have a very good game but his presence was big. He did have some scores underneath as well as some big boards.

I loved our defense tonight. They got very few good looks from 3 and we really cut off their drives.

Kelly was fine. Solid D, kept Mason from being doubled, took some charges. Best part? He didn't NEED to score in double figures. Team is looking more like the November version....

[jipops]

That was Tyler, btw. :)

It was the play of the game, followed by Mason's reverse flush

[Durham Thunder]

Damn proud to be a Duke Blue Devil. The entire team played their asses off tonight, and we won the second game at UNC for the first time since 2001!

[FerryFor50]

It was the play of the game, followed by Mason's reverse flush

I liked the Plumlee alley oop lay in on two UNC defenders while getting fouled..

[devildeac]

Speaking of crickets, absolutely no love when Dexter Strickland went out with a minute and change, last game at the dean dome

Maybe they were waiting to give Seth, Mason and Ryan their thunderous ovations, right len? Len, are you watching tonight?

[dukelifer]

Duke did a lot well tonight- mostly getting rebounds and controlling tempo. Loved when Tyler went down low and grabbed one to reset the clock. Duke was very strong and kept the pressure on all game. Never easy to win big on the road- hard to keep the focus. But Mason was the man tonight. He did everything one could ask of a big guy. Great way for him to end his last regular season game.

[UrinalCake]

That was Tyler, btw. :)

Sorry, was watching in a crowded, noisy bar and have had a few drinks since then 8-)

Obviously I'm not in any state to be analyzing the game, but I'm going to anyways... did anyone else notice that defensively it looked like we were allowing our two bigs to play almost like a zone, while our guards stayed man-to-man but switched pretty liberally on the perimeter? It was really effective, prevented them from getting separation off of the ball screen and allowed our bigs to be available to help. They didn't have any kind of inside threat so it didn't really matter who guarded who inside the paint.

[arnie]

Damn proud to be a Duke Blue Devil. The entire team played their asses off tonight, and we won the second game at UNC for the first time since 2001!

Since the Heels no longer competitive,who will be our rival? Maybe Syracuse??

[diveonthefloor]

Team played with great energy and when you're hitting shots and outworking your opponent, good things happen. A microcosm of the game was Quinn's great defensive play to dive for that loose ball and bounce it off Bullock's foot. Bullock just stood there and then after the play tried to complain to the ref.

I really wasn't expecting us to win so comfortably. To make it even sweeter, Andrew Wiggins was at the game to witness the crickets chirping.

http://northcarolina.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1480115

I noticed your comment about Wiggins, and had seen this posted earlier on UNC's blog....Seems like a plethora of blue chip recruits were in the building tonight.
Bwaah haa Bwaahh haaahaaaa!!!!!

[Dukeface88]

Since the Heels no longer competitive,who will be our rival? Maybe Syracuse??

I don't think Boeheim is sufficiently hateable. I'd suggest NC State or even Wake, but they aren't exactly tearing it up these days either.

[Kfanarmy]

That seemed like the first game in a long time that Duke started the game strong. Essentially outplayed them from start to finish, but the 14-0 start set the tone. Started taking the air out with about 6 minutes to go, and gave up the 23 point lead, but just a solid performance throughout.

[uh_no]

you can guard kelly
you can guard plumlee
you can guard curry


BUT YOU CAN'T GUARD ALL THREE!!!

[UrinalCake]

I noticed your comment about Wiggins, and had seen this posted earlier on UNC's blog....Seems like a plethora of blue chip recruits were in the building tonight.
Bwaah haa Bwaahh haaahaaaa!!!!!

A couple days before the game I read that Wiggins was going to be there. Honest to God, the first thought that popped into my head was, "I thought we weren't recruiting him." Double Bwaaahh!

[dukelifer]

I don't think Boeheim is sufficiently hateable. I'd suggest NC State or even Wake, but they aren't exactly tearing it up these days either.

Need to study how Georgetown plays Syracuse. They have figured something out.

[Dukeface88]

Need to study how Georgetown plays Syracuse. They have figured something out.

Somehow I don't think K is gonna have us playing the Princeton any time soon. We usually handle zones pretty well anyway.

[OldSchool]

Maybe they were waiting to give Seth, Mason and Ryan their thunderous ovations, right len? Len, are you watching tonight?

No doubt Elmore jumped to his feet and shook his fist at the tv screen when the Deandome crowd failed to give our senior starters a standing O at the end of the game! Oh, the outrage of it all...

[moonpie23]

man, i am bummed that i've been banned over at IC....i could get banned again tonight......:cool:


great game.....we play like that and we can make a run....

congrats everyone.....

[pfrduke]

My favorite little detail about the game - it was within single digits for a grand total of 3 minutes and 7 seconds: from the opening tip until Seth's 3 at 17:11 (2 minutes, 49 seconds), and from the time UNC cut it to 14-5 until Seth hit a jumper to put the lead back to 11 (from 15:04 to 14:46, 18 seconds). Otherwise, Duke had at least a 10 point cushion.

Also, over the last 32 minutes and 22 seconds, the lead was less than 15 for a grand total of 53 seconds.

We killed them.

[roywhite]

It's not too often any team can go into the Dean Dome and dominate the Heels.

Sweet win, and congrats esp. to Mason, Seth, and Ryan.

[Durham Thunder]

Anyone else notice during the game that the NCAA allowed Rodney Hood to travel Chapel Hill? FINALLY?

[uh_no]

Anyone else notice during the game that the NCAA allowed Rodney Hood to travel Chapel Hill? FINALLY?

To be fair, I think he might have been able to finance that travel on his own :)

[roywhite]

Just a quick note of praise to Mason Plumlee as we end the regular season.

He now leads the team in:
Minutes played 34.7
Field goals made 189
FG% 58.9%
Free throw attempts (229) and free throws made (154)
Rebounds 10.3
Scoring 17.2
Blocks 48 ttl

He came back for his senior season, and made the most of it. He scored, rebounded, defended, was more productive from the FT line, and provided toughness and leadership.

Thanks, Mason, and I've gotta think the best is yet to come.

[TampaDukie]

man, i am bummed that i've been banned over at IC....i could get banned again tonight......:cool:

As always, that place is straight comedy. My favorite (now-locked) thread is "Do we storm the court if we win?" Sure, go for it!

[uh_no]

Just a quick note of praise to Mason Plumlee as we end the regular season.

He now leads the team in:
Minutes played 34.7
Field goals made 189
FG% 58.9%
Free throw attempts (229) and free throws made (154)
Rebounds 10.3
Scoring 17.2
Blocks 48 ttl

He came back for his senior season, and made the most of it. He scored, rebounded, defended, was more productive from the FT line, and provided toughness and leadership.

Thanks, Mason, and I've gotta think the best is yet to come.

how can you not love him(and his orthers for that matter)

he had some down games, but the fact remains, you can't not focus on him.....UNC focused on Kelly tonight, and they got destroyed by Curry and Plumlee....

focus on any of the three fluing EEEEE's (kel-E pluml-E cur-E) and the other two will destroy you....that's the strength of this team, and what made it so tough when kelly was out.

love these guys.

[wallyman]

Just a quick note of praise to Mason Plumlee as we end the regular season.

He now leads the team in:
Minutes played 34.7
Field goals made 189
FG% 58.9%
Free throw attempts (229) and free throws made (154)
Rebounds 10.3
Scoring 17.2
Blocks 48 ttl

He came back for his senior season, and made the most of it. He scored, rebounded, defended, was more productive from the FT line, and provided toughness and leadership.

Thanks, Mason, and I've gotta think the best is yet to come.



Great post. Mason looked so energetic tonight -- what a difference a little rest and a lack of double teams will do. He was so great for the first two-thirds of the season it was tempting to get down on him a bit as he tailed off and had a few sub-par games. But, this lays out what a dominant year he's had and what a memorable senior season he put together. And, no one knows what the future brings, but he certainly looks like a man capable of playing at the highest level with Kelly in the lineup.

[WakeDevil]

Strong, strong rebounding. Love love love it!

Duke lost the rebounding battle, despite what the numbers say.

[NashvilleDevil]

Duke lost the rebounding battle, despite what the numbers say.

Explain please? Yes Carolina got a lot of offensive rebounds but they missed a lot more shots than Duke.

[uh_no]

Explain please? Yes Carolina got a lot of offensive rebounds but they missed a lot more shots than Duke.

fully agree.

they got more offensive boards, but I think that is mitigated by the fact that we hit 22% more shots than did they.

I am in no condition to do math, but I imagine if we we shot about the same % as did they, we probably would have had about the same rebound count.


at this point in the year, we all know defensive rebounding isn't dukes best point. Duke (with kelly) does a PHENOMENAL job of forcing opponents into bad shots (read: low % shots)

if that means they miss more, and thus get a few more offensive boards ( looking better than us in the rebounds stat), then so be it.

Like everyone else, I wish we could rebound better than we do, but we don't. I'm happy, though, with the fact that with kelly in the lineup we are an absurdly good defensive team.

[-bdbd]

Since the Heels no longer competitive,who will be our rival? Maybe Syracuse??

I guess not Maryland, huh?? ;)

Be careful about getting too cocky, as we migh well see these guys again next Saturday....

[Mudge]

The whiney geezers stormed the exits

Whiney geezers or wine & cheesers?

[Dukeface88]

fully agree.

they got more offensive boards, but I think that is mitigated by the fact that we hit 22% more shots than did they.

I am in no condition to do math, but I imagine if we we shot about the same % as did they, we probably would have had about the same rebound count.


WakeDevil is actually correct - Carolina rebounded 44% of their misses vs. our 41% (and defenseive rebounding was of course 59% vs 56%).

[Acymetric]

Speaking of crickets, absolutely no love when Dexter Strickland went out with a minute and change, last game at the dean dome


Well if nothing else I think we can all agree that Carolina should have been cheering on the seniors of the Miami Hurricanes...(or is it just Duke who is supposed to do that)?

[ChillinDuke]

Can't say much other than, with that dominant a win - it's nice to be a #1 seed.

- Chillin

[-bdbd]

That was about as much fun as I've had watching a Duke game in a long, long time. Everything pretty much worked. Great to see the Seniors finish up their "regular season" careers, and now head into the post-seaon with tons of momentum, on such a incredible high. All three of them were very effective in their own ways. MP2 was just a one-on-one monster tonight. Guard him straight up at your peril. I still want to see him do it on a bigger center like Lin (Fri.), but he's heading into the post-season with a TON of confidence, which I think is really important for him. Seth was just not to be denied in the first half. Just dominant, creating his own shots and hitting bombs. Kelly, while the numbers didn't entirely show it, was effective in his own ways - biggest was just being a major DECOY that UNC spent tons of energy focusing on (and thus leaving open opportunities for Seth and Mason), but he also was very effective on Defense, and in grabbing (or tipping) a lot of rebounds (or blocking a NC big to help MP2 grab some more). Don't forget, as Bilas pointed out, that our PG, Cook, had an extremely solid game all around. Just wow - this team is hitting on all cylinders at just the right time. I think that's worthy of a little chest thumping and certainly a ton of confidence as we head to the ACCT and NCAAT.

The Gameday crew, for what it's worth, unanimously stated that Duke is now the best team in the country, and Lunardi has us as the "first" among the #1's, and the East Regional #1...all good things. And I think we stay a #1 regardless, though you obviously want to guard against overconfidence of course.



Wheat called this game. Kelly was pretty average tonight and UNC could not stop Curry and the paid a big price. Pretty much sums it up.

I disagree. Kelly was only "average" in the sense that he didn't top his scoring average. However, he was the reason UNC had to play MP2 and Curry straight-up, and we saw what that led to. One's value isn't solely seen in terms of total points scored. He also played great defense, and rebounded well. If I'm Kelly I'm VERY proud of that outcome and the role he played in causing it.


Sure if you want to double the Sheed/Thornton guy is the obvious choice but Sheed is shooting 39% from 3 this year and Thornton is also a respectable 37% those aren't great odds either. The doubles were a much easier call when its Hairston/Jefferson's man.

Was thinking about that during the game too, but K is smart about that as well, with Sheed/TT very often NOT the guy nearest to MP2, so helping off of them isn't as simple as just saying so... And Sheed is also a very capable driver, so if a big comes over to defend him as they rerecover from the double on MP2, then RS is a big danger to blow by them too. And as stated before, TT is not a BAD shooter either. I really like where we are with RK's return. With this great senior leadership, and multiple weapons, this team will clearly be a tough, tough out in the NCAAT. Not that we can't lose, but we DO have cause for a lot of confidence heading into the post-season. That's a great feeling isn't it?? :D

[Henderson]

By midway in the second half, the Dean Dome was half empty. Even Roy commented on it in his post-game presser. They couldn't at least stick around to honor Dexter Strickland on Senior Night? Pretty shameful. Carolina fans... Sheesh.

Pitiful. Remember that, Carolina recruits. I'm glad that Wiggins was in the house to see what Carolina basketball is all about.

[Henderson]

Since the Heels no longer competitive,who will be our rival? Maybe Syracuse??

Either this is a joke, the poster is under 25 and to be forgiven for a lack of historical perspective, or the poster has some sort of brain damage.

I'll assume it's a joke. Good one too.

[g-money]

A great win for Duke tonight. This one had shades of 82-50... and we all know how that season turned out.

RK is having a Battier-like effect on the offense. It is a huge advantage to have five guys that can score playing simultaneously.

A shout-out to SC, MP2, and QC, who all had great games. I love this TEAM.

Call me a heretic, but I wish we could skip the ACC Tournament and start playing NCAAT games ASAP. If the tournament started today, I think we would run the table.

Hopefully we'll still be playing this well just under a month from now.

[Reilly]

Last year, when Duke was struggling defensively, K said something along the lines of our players "just not getting it" and that "it's not AAU" ball out there. It was as frustrated -- and scornfully dismissive -- as I can remember him being. From what little I've seen of Carolina this year, they seem to have the ability to be a bad AAU team: no real interest in defense, and jacking up ill-advised shots -- passive on D and spastic on O.

[dukelifer]

That was about as much fun as I've had watching a Duke game in a long, long time. Everything pretty much worked. Great to see the Seniors finish up their "regular season" careers, and now head into the post-seaon with tons of momentum, on such a incredible high. All three of them were very effective in their own ways. MP2 was just a one-on-one monster tonight. Guard him straight up at your peril. I still want to see him do it on a bigger center like Lin (Fri.), but he's heading into the post-season with a TON of confidence, which I think is really important for him. Seth was just not to be denied in the first half. Just dominant, creating his own shots and hitting bombs. Kelly, while the numbers didn't entirely show it, was effective in his own ways - biggest was just being a major DECOY that UNC spent tons of energy focusing on (and thus leaving open opportunities for Seth and Mason), but he also was very effective on Defense, and in grabbing (or tipping) a lot of rebounds (or blocking a NC big to help MP2 grab some more). Don't forget, as Bilas pointed out, that our PG, Cook, had an extremely solid game all around. Just wow - this team is hitting on all cylinders at just the right time. I think that's worthy of a little chest thumping and certainly a ton of confidence as we head to the ACCT and NCAAT.

The Gameday crew, for what it's worth, unanimously stated that Duke is now the best team in the country, and Lunardi has us as the "first" among the #1's, and the East Regional #1...all good things. And I think we stay a #1 regardless, though you obviously want to guard against overconfidence of course.




I disagree. Kelly was only "average" in the sense that he didn't top his scoring average. However, he was the reason UNC had to play MP2 and Curry straight-up, and we saw what that led to. One's value isn't solely seen in terms of total points scored. He also played great defense, and rebounded well. If I'm Kelly I'm VERY proud of that outcome and the role he played in causing it.



Was thinking about that during the game too, but K is smart about that as well, with Sheed/TT very often NOT the guy nearest to MP2, so helping off of them isn't as simple as just saying so... And Sheed is also a very capable driver, so if a big comes over to defend him as they rerecover from the double on MP2, then RS is a big danger to blow by them too. And as stated before, TT is not a BAD shooter either. I really like where we are with RK's return. With this great senior leadership, and multiple weapons, this team will clearly be a tough, tough out in the NCAAT. Not that we can't lose, but we DO have cause for a lot of confidence heading into the post-season. That's a great feeling isn't it?? :D

My comment was meant to be a backhanded compliment to our Tar Heel friend's power of prediction. That said, Kelly had a big effect on the game in terms of spacing and rebounding position - but his offense was below average for him. But even if he does not score- you have to respect his shot and the other players will benefit

[oldnavy]

Wheat was very, very far off from "calling this game" correctly. If he said 15 things about the game, 13 of them were wrong. You're just somehow only remembering the two he got right.

Wheat did a better job than I did. I predicted Rasheed to have a big game... it was a gut feeling... now that I think about it, my stomach has been bothering me for a while, may be time for a GI appointment!

Nevertheless, great job by our guys to "bring the boom" from the opening tip. It was important to not let UNC get going, and we did what they have been doing of late.... getting out to a fast start.

Seth was amazing in the first half, and Mase picked up the scoring responsibility in the second.

Quinn played a really solid game and RK did exactly what he needed to do, he kept the heels honest on defense, and played VERY good defense himself.

[jv001]

Wheat did a better job than I did. I predicted Rasheed to have a big game... it was a gut feeling... now that I think about it, my stomach has been bothering me for a while, may be time for a GI appointment!

Nevertheless, great job by our guys to "bring the boom" from the opening tip. It was important to not let UNC get going, and we did what they have been doing of late.... getting out to a fast start.

Seth was amazing in the first half, and Mase picked up the scoring responsibility in the second.

Quinn played a really solid game and RK did exactly what he needed to do, he kept the heels honest on defense, and played VERY good defense himself.

I guess it's about time for you and I go to Church. Like you said yesterday, hope our preachers bring their A games to keep us awake. I know my preacher will be very very very happy this morning. And yes, I agree with all your points about the game. Seth got us started and Mason put the nail in the coffin. God bless our Blue Devils and GoDuke!

[dukeofcalabash]

By midway in the second half, the Dean Dome was half empty. Even Roy commented on it in his post-game presser. They couldn't at least stick around to honor Dexter Strickland on Senior Night? Pretty shameful. Carolina fans... Sheesh.

Pitiful. Remember that, Carolina recruits. I'm glad that Wiggins was in the house to see what Carolina basketball is all about.

I'm thinking that the "crowd" left early knowing how their Senior "earned" his degree.

[Papa John]

Either this is a joke, the poster is under 25 and to be forgiven for a lack of historical perspective, or the poster has some sort of brain damage.

I'll assume it's a joke. Good one too.

With a handle of "arnie is still king," I'm guessing historical perspective is not lacking... It was a joke, and a durn good one at that!


By midway in the second half, the Dean Dome was half empty. Even Roy commented on it in his post-game presser.

And thus is answered my question from early on in this thread... Roy decided to throw the Dean Dome crowd under the bus! I must say, this could be the one time where he chose correctly. Poor form to not give a strong show of support for you senior when he comes out of his last game on his home court. And in front of a bunch of blue chip recruits... I'm guessing they noticed that...

[ChrisP]

I read some of the comments upthread about how having RK in the game helped keep the defense honest (which I know is true) and how it lead to open looks for Seth. I'm wondering if those posters watched the same game I did because I thought Curry was pretty well-defended on most all of those shots he made in that first half 7-7 streak.

I just watched the highlights on ESPN and Seth had at least a hand in his face on most every one of those shots. He was just crazy, crazy good last night. I know Ryan helps the team in lots of ways and I'm not saying that his presence didn't benefit Seth, but I think some of you guys are not giving Curry enough credit. He was just out of his mind in that first half. When he made that shot falling down, I pretty much knew it was our night and wasn't ever too worried about the Heels coming back. :cool:

[dukelifer]

I read some of the comments upthread about how having RK in the game helped keep the defense honest (which I know is true) and how it lead to open looks for Seth. I'm wondering if those posters watched the same game I did because I thought Curry was pretty well-defended on most all of those shots he made in that first half 7-7 streak.

I just watched the highlights on ESPN and Seth had at least a hand in his face on most every one of those shots. He was just crazy, crazy good last night. I know Ryan helps the team in lots of ways and I'm not saying that his presence didn't benefit Seth, but I think some of you guys are not giving Curry enough credit. He was just out of his mind in that first half. When he made that shot falling down, I pretty much knew it was our night and wasn't ever too worried about the Heels coming back. :cool:

When Curry gets going he is hard to guard as he has supreme confidence in that shot. He was hitting everything. The step back fade away was a thing of beauty. In the second half the threat of Curry and Kelly opened up the game for Mason. Curry was brilliant and most appreciated.

[Saratoga2]

To put this win in perspective, this was a win against a team on a hot streak, that was playing at home on their senior night. They had an arena full of supporters screaming for them. That Duke came in and totally outperformed them was a testimony to the preparation of the team going in and the superior play of our seniors in particular, although many had a hand.

I thought the keys going in were to get off to a solid start instead of falling behind. To do that I thought Mason had to show up from the get go. In addition I thought Rasheed needed to get his act together because the other players were very capable of holding their own or better out there.

1. We did get off to a great start with Mason playing very hard from the outset and Seth just plain amazing, hitting about everything he threw up. It appeared to stun UNC, their fans and their coach. UNC could not hit a shot to start and it didn't improve for them until Duke eased up.

2. Mason not only started well but was too much for the small UNC lineup to handle. Can he do this against bigger teams. Stay tuned. One thing I wondered about is why he didn't raise his hands to defend the mid range jumper being taken over him? Anyone have a view on that?

3. Rasheed didn't get to start and when he was in was really not a factor. He is in a slump right now but Tyler played very hard and made contributions. Rasheed needs to build confidence and contribute as we will need him going forward. We know he can do it, it seems to be a lack of confidence.

4. Seth was expected to be a thorn in UNC's side and indeed he was. Fantastic shooting and good overall play. In the second half he felt more covered and scored much less but still made nice passes to Mason.

5. Quinn also was expected to perform well as he has of late and he didn't disappoint. Good floor game and scoring when needed. Two very important clutch baskets into the teeth of the UNC front court defense when we had gone into a careless period. Pulled us out of a swoon.

6. Ryan I thought was too amped up in the game and made rare mental mistakes for him by forcing his offense when it wasn't there. He still was important in the game and after he considers his performance he can easily correct the approach.

&. A little troubling was the period of carelessness in which UNC went on a 10/2 run. Clearly we didn't need to push as hard and fast and turn the ball over. All teachable moments. This team is ready for the tournament.

[Billy Dat]

Poor form to not give a strong show of support for you senior when he comes out of his last game on his home court. And in front of a bunch of blue chip recruits... I'm guessing they noticed that...

Do kids these days notice anything that isn't beaming out from a smartphone, Papa John?

[Bob Green]

The keys to the game will be:

1. Guarding the 3 PT line. Both teams have the ability to light it up from downtown.
2. Taking care of the basketball. Carolina has excelled converting turnovers into points with their small line-up.
3. Foul trouble. Neither team can afford to have their starters riding the pine.



1. Carolina shot 1-14 from behind the 3 PT line. Advantage Duke.
2. We turned it over 14 times, which is above our season average of 10.9 but below the 15.6 Carolina normally forces. Duke scored 14 points off turnovers to Carolina's 11. Advantage Duke.
3. Neither team experienced foul trouble. Duke made 10 of 12 free throws, while Carolina made 10 of 13. A wash.

[Furniture]

I could not get over their crowd when Duke were taking free throws. No movement at all.....

[captmojo]

Last night, the nation got to see The Fist.
A team victory perfectly orchestrated by the greatest conductor...and a little help from nature's healing process, enjoyed by us on behalf of Ryan Kelly's return to good health. The Fist needs all it's elements to be most effective. They are now definitely all present and ready for duty.

[arnie]

Either this is a joke, the poster is under 25 and to be forgiven for a lack of historical perspective, or the poster has some sort of brain damage.

I'll assume it's a joke. Good one too.

No, it's brain damage. Old enough to have watched Robbie West hit the jumper from 20-ft right center

[MChambers]

How cool was it to make Roy use one of his precious timeouts before the first scheduled timeout? Guess he didn't want another 40-12 deficit.

[moonpie23]

show of support for you senior when he comes out of his last game on his home court. And in front of a bunch of blue chip recruits... I'm guessing they noticed that...

i think the recruits left early as well....

[FerryFor50]

i think the recruits left early as well....

Isn't that the goal of blue chip recruits these days? To leave early? :)

[devilsadvocate85]

6. Ryan I thought was too amped up in the game and made rare mental mistakes for him by forcing his offense when it wasn't there. He still was important in the game and after he considers his performance he can easily correct the approach.



Not sure what you saw here. He was 2 for 4 on field goal attempts. That doesn't even come close to "forcing" anything or a player with his ability.

[freshmanjs]

Not sure what you saw here. He was 2 for 4 on field goal attempts. That doesn't even come close to "forcing" anything or a player with his ability.

probably the 2 offensive fouls.

[NashvilleDevil]

Not sure what you saw here. He was 2 for 4 on field goal attempts. That doesn't even come close to "forcing" anything or a player with his ability.

He also got called for two charges in which he was out of control and then the silly foul on PJ's three point attempt. I would say that is what Saratoga meant by being amped up.

[weezie]

How cool was it to make Roy use one of his precious timeouts before the first scheduled timeout? Guess he didn't want another 40-12 deficit.

Ah yes! That was cause for great merriment in the kingdom. Ol' roy looked like he'd seen his life flash in front of his eyes.

[WakeDevil]

Let me return to the idea that one "wins" the rebounding battle if one has more rebounds. John Gasaway of Basketball Prospectus has an excellent article on the subject. This excerpt is especially relevent to Duke.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=829

For the purposes of killing the term I actually looked up the national leaders in you-know-what. According to the NCAA's official stats, Tulsa currently leads the nation in, uh, that thing. Fine. Know what? The Hurricane do indeed rebound the ball very well, thanks in large part to the contributions of seven-footer Jerome Jordan. Doug Wojcik's team is particularly strong on the defensive glass, where so far this season they've hauled down no fewer than 77 percent of their opponents' misses. That is an incredibly high number that is poised to climb even higher, with Tulsa slated to play Jackson State tonight. If this keeps up, which it probably won't, you can put this team up there on the same beastly rebounding bleachers with Michigan State 2000.

There. That's a reality-based account of the Hurricane's excellent defensive rebounding, one that acknowledges that the world is round, grape juice stains things, and a breakfront is a piece of furniture that breaks in the front. But look at the completely non-rebounding factors that come into play when you calculate something as vaporous and ersatz as (aaiieee!) a "rebound margin." A huge factor in Tulsa's sheer number of defensive rebounds (as opposed to their laudably large share of the available boards) is the fact that they never force turnovers. Ever. More than 85 percent of opponents' possessions end in either a FG attempt or free throws. Lesson one: "Rebound margin" (shudder) penalizes defenses that are good at creating turnovers.
Then there's the much larger issue entailed in any tallying of mere rebounds. I don't want to freak anyone out here, but I have long been of the opinion that there is no such thing as "rebounds," per se. There are only offensive rebounds and defensive rebounds, and they are completely separate and qualitatively different animals.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

That was Tyler, btw. :)

That Tyler play was remarkable. Seemed like it was taken directly from the Jon Scheyer school of amazing plays.

It also seemed very fitting that Mason got another reverse jam at the Dean Dome to bookend his career there.

Our guys looked so energized. It was really nice to see them 2 steps ahead of the UNC guys. A really fun game to watch, I think I'll go watch it again now.

[weezie]

inside carolina is so sad and weepy that it's actually making me wish we'd beaten them by 50 points. :cool:

[davekay1971]

There was so much good to take away from this game. We didn't win because of a remarkable shooting spurt by Curry, although that certainly gave us an early advantage that we never surrendured.

We won because of defense, which was smothering; because Curry did have an awesome first half; and because the lane was wide open for Mason. Ryan's return, despite his subpar performance scoring, was key to the first and third of those factors.

I have a hard time really understanding why our defense is so much better with Ryan. I mean, I know it's his abilities with help defense, but when I'm watching the game, even looking for it, it's hard to see it. But the evidence is there, and it's beyond reasonable doubt, that our defense with Ryan is very, very good...much better than without him.

[Duvall]

WakeDevil is actually correct - Carolina rebounded 44% of their misses vs. our 41% (and defenseive rebounding was of course 59% vs 56%).

Seems pretty far from a significant difference.

[Papa John]

Do kids these days notice anything that isn't beaming out from a smartphone, Papa John?

But if the blue-chippers in attendance were Snapchatting, then surely they'd notice all those empty Dean Dome seats behind them?

[Chris Randolph]

Unfortunately I was unable to post during the game due to a technological malfunction...

Great win, just dominant. No other way to put it. Proud for the seniors who are stepping up their game at the right time. They know they are running out of time so they are elevating themselves, hope it continues.

Moving forward, all that needs to happen now is for Sheed to snap out of his funk. He looked very very average (I'm being nice) last night. When we were at our best early in the year, Sheed was having a much bigger impact. To win the ACCT and national title, we need Sheed to get back to his regular self

[roywhite]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but do we know for sure what the matchup is that will provide our opponent for Friday's ACC Tournament action?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Well, I've read the whole thread and I won't take any credit for any super powers of seeing the future :)
I was at a dinner and couldn't really watch the game like I would have liked. No sound, lots of interruptions, you know the drill...

My key to the game for a UNC win was come out and guard Curry. They obviously couldn't do that.

Not "didn't" guard him,..........couldn't. That kid has heart. I've always liked him. He's a killer, and as he goes, so goes Duke's level of play. I thought UNC had a good chance to win if they just focused on taking him out of the game. Well, I was wrong. UNC was focused on him, yet they still couldn't stop him.

Curry set the tone and UNC got knocked back... began pressing, missing shots.

And all the while Duke continued to play well...recipe for a whopping and they got one.

Paige showed he's still a freshman. I thought that he had grown enough lately to handle big game pressure, but he's still not there.

As PG he's got to settle the team down, and he didn't do that. They didn't shoot well because they rushed shots and pushed on both ends, and Paige is the player that has to take command.

UNC overplaying because they panicked, was freeing up Mason inside where he is just too big and powerful for UNC's "bigs". That was the best complete game I've seen Mason play in 4 years. I even saw a couple of quality post moves from him! Where've they been? Mostly, I saw a more physically imposing man against boys in the paint. Credit his team doing a good job getting him the ball within the flow in this one.

Overall Duke simply outplayed UNC and was the better team.

Some positives for UNC?
I liked that they never quit. They were active even when their eyes showed the knew they were beat.
The season's not over.

Congrats on a big win.

[tbyers11]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere, but do we know for sure what the matchup is that will provide our opponent for Friday's ACC Tournament action?

Maryland is locked into the 7 seed. Wake and VT play today with the winner getting the 10 seed. So we get the winner of the MD/(Wake or VT) first round game on Thursday.

[Tjenkins]

I don't post here much, but I've been watching Duke since the Banks/Spanarkel/Gminski days.

Seems like yesterday I watched Duke & UNC open the Dean Dome in 1986. I was already a fan, but that game made me a Duke diehard for life, even if they lost in a valiant effort against the (then) top-ranked Heels that featured Daugherty & Smith.

There's only one thing better than watching Duke go into the Dean Dome and win decisively:Watching them win a National Championship.

[arnie]

Maryland is locked into the 7 seed. Wake and VT play today with the winner getting the 10 seed. So we get the winner of the MD/(Wake or VT) first round game on Thursday.

Wow, potentially Maryland, UNC and Miami to win the ACC tournament. Will be fun.

[greybeard]

Sure if you want to double the Sheed/Thornton guy is the obvious choice but Sheed is shooting 39% from 3 this year and Thornton is also a respectable 37% those aren't great odds either. The doubles were a much easier call when its Hairston/Jefferson's man.

Perhaps. But, I think that the genuflecting done by the heads in the media about all things Ryan, this spacing business, is so unwarrented in many instances. This was in my view one of them. From the outset, Plumlee played with ease, poise, power and decisiveness that made for unspectualar but unstoppable and high-degree of difficulty scores. Those qualities were apparant from the outset, beginning with the first or second score of the game for Duke. Those hook and other shots did not depend on a lack of double team; they were great scores, great moves.

In addition, Plumlee's defensive rebounding had a quality that has in the main been missing from relatively early in the season, perhaps when Ryan went down. When he went after the ball there was quickness to the spot, terrific elevation and reach, and when, he got a hand on it, he owned it.

The amount of space that Mason has to operate increases when the other big on the floor is not an offensive non-threat, or a screen setter aka Zoubek. However, you do not need Ryan to present a sufficient offensive threat to require sufficient defensive attention to provide the inside scorer more room to maneuver. To give "all credit" to Ryan when, by your measure, the defense would have had to honor Rashead and Tyler as 3-ball threats had Duke gone small seems to me to make this point.

Is Plumlee less pressured, and less fatigued (mentality and physically) when Ryan is on the court. Sure. But, let's not forget who lead the short list for POY before Ryan went down. That guy showed up last night, and displayed the qualities that earned him that standing.
was the old Plumlee that has been scored from the beginning in ways that were virtually unstoppable. If, playing with either Hairston or Jefferson would have made that more difficult because double teams would be coming off his defender tpo double Mason, then the fact that there was a guy on the court whose mid to outside game had to be respected does not mean that Ryan, as opposed to any above average scorer, was

[Furniture]

One thing that I am impressed with lately is the play of josh and Tyler. To be honest at the beginning of the season I would cringe when they came on. Now I feel that there is very little drop off of our overall performance.
I think josh has great touch around the basket and I'm impressed at the way Tyler and cook play together. With the return of Kelly I think this is another thing that's setting us up very nicely.

[dukelifer]

Well, I've read the whole thread and I won't take any credit for any super powers of seeing the future :)
I was at a dinner and couldn't really watch the game like I would have liked. No sound, lots of interruptions, you know the drill...

My key to the game for a UNC win was come out and guard Curry. They obviously couldn't do that.

Not "didn't" guard him,..........couldn't. That kid has heart. I've always liked him. He's a killer, and as he goes, so goes Duke's level of play. I thought UNC had a good chance to win if they just focused on taking him out of the game. Well, I was wrong. UNC was focused on him, yet they still couldn't stop him.

Curry set the tone and UNC got knocked back... began pressing, missing shots.

And all the while Duke continued to play well...recipe for a whopping and they got one.

Paige showed he's still a freshman. I thought that he had grown enough lately to handle big game pressure, but he's still not there.

As PG he's got to settle the team down, and he didn't do that. They didn't shoot well because they rushed shots and pushed on both ends, and Paige is the player that has to take command.

UNC overplaying because they panicked, was freeing up Mason inside where he is just too big and powerful for UNC's "bigs". That was the best complete game I've seen Mason play in 4 years. I even saw a couple of quality post moves from him! Where've they been? Mostly, I saw a more physically imposing man against boys in the paint. Credit his team doing a good job getting him the ball within the flow in this one.

Overall Duke simply outplayed UNC and was the better team.

Some positives for UNC?
I liked that they never quit. They were active even when their eyes showed the knew they were beat.
The season's not over.

Congrats on a big win.

As you know, Curry has supreme confidence against UNC- which began his first year at Duke. He is a killer but something about UNC brings that out- even though I think the guards for UNC are bigger and stronger and should be able to handle him. As a Duke fan, I never think UNC is out of a game and if they had hit a few threes- who knows. But Duke punched them in the nose and they did panic- a lot more than I thought they would at home. It seems when they get out of sync- there is no one there to right the ship. Tough to call on a Freshman PG to do that. Strickland never showed the senior leadership you typically expect from a UNC player. UNC has improved and very well could be a dangerous ACC and NCAA opponent. It remains to be seen if they can play well against an unfamiliar foe.

[hudlow]

As you know, Curry has supreme confidence against UNC- which began his first year at Duke. He is a killer but something about UNC brings that out- even though I think the guards for UNC are bigger and stronger and should be able to handle him. As a Duke fan, I never think UNC is out of a game and if they had hit a few threes- who knows. But Duke punched them in the nose and they did panic- a lot more than I thought they would at home. It seems when they get out of sync- there is no one there to right the ship. Tough to call on a Freshman PG to do that. Strickland never showed the senior leadership you typically expect from a UNC player. UNC has improved and very well could be a dangerous ACC and NCAA opponent. It remains to be seen if they can play well against an unfamiliar foe.

It's hard for a panicked coach to settle a panicked team...

[MCFinARL]

I'm thinking that the "crowd" left early knowing how their Senior "earned" his degree.

This doesn't seem quite fair since, based on what I have read, the basketball program changed course in 2009-10 and backed off some of the really questionable stuff like the non-meeting AfAm courses. So there is no real reason to question Strickland's degree, any more than any other D1 basketball player's degree.

[dukelifer]

It's hard for a panicked coach to settle a panicked team...

While I understand why folks pick on Roy- he does know what he is doing out there. At some point it is in the hands of the players to play. Most UNC teams have seniors who take responsibility. This year's UNC team did not. Strickland never really progressed as a player at UNC.

[BD80]

This doesn't seem quite fair since, based on what I have read, the basketball program changed course in 2009-10 and backed off some of the really questionable stuff like the non-meeting AfAm courses. So there is no real reason to question Strickland's degree, any more than any other D1 basketball player's degree.

Actually, that is a perfectly good reason to question his degree. It is called integrity. A program must EARN it, rather than just stop doing "some" of the questionable stuff. Carolina sold its integrity to keep its players eligible: they got a natty for it, but its degrees now bear the stain. Doesn't really matter, which tar heel since Vince Carter really gives a crap about a carolina degree?

You can build 1,000 bridges but ...

[Bob Green]

Overall Duke simply outplayed UNC and was the better team.

Congrats on a big win.

Thanks for the congratulations!

[davekay1971]

While I understand why folks pick on Roy- he does know what he is doing out there. At some point it is in the hands of the players to play. Most UNC teams have seniors who take responsibility. This year's UNC team did not. Strickland never really progressed as a player at UNC.

So, practice number 53 wasn't the turning point? Dadgummit!

[OldPhiKap]

UNC is young, undersized, and lacking a stellar point guard. They are a top-30 team which will be better next year.

I think Roy did a pretty good job last night, switching up defenses. Still do not understand how he finished the game without burning all of his time outs, though (IIRC). He has limited offensive choices, especially if his kids shoot 1-14 from outside (again, IIRC).

Duke played incredibly well, and would have beaten about anyone last night. Great to see that focus on the road. Three great seniors, a top shelf point guard, and our best on-ball defenders at the other spot makes for a very potent mix.

[Blue Man]

From today's N&O (Kelly had a broken foot?)
"For Duke, this was another opportunity to build momentum amid the return of Kelly, the senior forward who missed 13 games after suffering a broken foot in January. Ryan scored 36 points in his first game back, last week against Miami, and then finished with 18 against Virginia Tech".
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/03/09/2738349/live-from-chapel-hill-unc-vs-duke.html
Blue Man

[Dukeblue91]

This was a great game all around by our players.
It also becomes apparent how important Tyler is to this team.
he always does the little things for this team that are always timed just right.
It was great to see Mason having such a awesome game and it showed how Important the presence of RK is to this team and how other teams have to plat us.
Curry was just unbelievable in the first half and very solid in the second.
With the exception of that one 5 minute stretch in the second were we did not score, this was the best team game this year.
I'm very proud off all guys of this team.

Rasheed if you can hear me wherever you are, Please come back as we really need you for this last stretch of the season.

[jipops]

Mason and Ryan are 3-1 at the Dean Dome, one toe injury away from being 4-0.

[fuse]

indeed Tyler does the little things so well our own fans don't even notice it when he does it. he's obviously not a star but plays hard all the time and seems to have a knack for coming up with big effort plays.

Highest compliment I can pay Tyler is that he is a "mini-Battier" (referring to the NYT no stats all star article from a while ago). He makes a huge difference for us when he is on the court that often does not show in the stats.

[Bob Green]

UNC is young, undersized, and lacking a stellar point guard. They are a top-30 team which will be better next year.

I agree with you dependent upon who stays and who leaves early for the NBA. I expect JMM will depart, but the key for Carolina being better next year is the return of Bullock and Hairston. If one or both of them decide to take off, Coach Williams will have another young and inexperienced team on his hands. If all three decide to return, Carolina will not only be better, they will be very, very good.

[ncexnyc]

UNC overplaying because they panicked, was freeing up Mason inside where he is just too big and powerful for UNC's "bigs". That was the best complete game I've seen Mason play in 4 years. I even saw a couple of quality post moves from him! Where've they been? Mostly, I saw a more physically imposing man against boys in the paint. Credit his team doing a good job getting him the ball within the flow in this one.

Congrats on a big win.

I've always appreciated your views through the ugly shade of blue sunglasses you wear and the fact that win, lose, or draw you'll show up and if necessary take your lumps, but couldn't you resist one final dig at Mason?

[davekay1971]

Rasheed if you can hear me wherever you are, Please come back as we really need you for this last stretch of the season.

Rasheed was there...playing really good defense. Which is what we need from him. We've got scorers aplenty now that Ryan's back. When Rasheed's on and we have a fifth scorer in our starting 5, that's gravy.

[davekay1971]

I've always appreciated your views through the ugly shade of blue sunglasses you wear and the fact that win, lose, or draw you'll show up and if necessary take your lumps, but couldn't you resist one final dig at Mason?

Second the props to Wheat for showing up and giving a nice congrats to our guys. But you must understand the Carolina view of Duke big men:

If they struggle, it's because Duke and, particularly, K, can't coach big men and/or don't know how to use big men.

If they produce right away, it's because K recruited a hoss and he'd produce no matter where he was or who he was playing for, and, in fact, he's producing at Duke in spite of K.

If they come in raw and produce later in their career (a la Mason and Zoubs), it was K, his system, and his inability to coach big men that was holding the player back for the first 3 years.

Case in point: Mason has been great this year. Therefore, he obviously must have walked into Duke with all these tools, since he couldn't have developed them at Duke. So where were they before now?

I hope that explains the Carolina pathology (which, unfortunately, affects our good friend (and excellent sportsman) Wheat) regarding their perception of Duke big men.

[pfrduke]

I agree with you dependent upon who stays and who leaves early for the NBA. I expect JMM will depart, but the key for Carolina being better next year is the return of Bullock and Hairston. If one or both of them decide to take off, Coach Williams will have another young and inexperienced team on his hands. If all three decide to return, Carolina will not only be better, they will be very, very good.

I think this will prove to be addition by subtraction for UNC. He's high volume/low efficiency on offense - for example, he's taken exactly 100 more field goals and 92 more free throws than Reggie Bullock to produce a grand total of 28 more points. He had only 6 games all season where he shot better than 50% from the floor (and only 4 more with exactly 50%). In 2/3 of the games this year, he was giving the team less than a point every time he shot the ball, and he took by far the most shots of anyone on the team. Plus he turns the ball over.

If you believe in advanced stats, McAdoo had a worse offensive rating than every non-walk-on on UNC other than Desmond Hubert, yet nobody used more possessions.

[Indoor66]

Second the props to Wheat for showing up and giving a nice congrats to our guys. But you must understand the Carolina view of Duke big men:

If they struggle, it's because Duke and, particularly, K, can't coach big men and/or don't know how to use big men.

If they produce right away, it's because K recruited a hoss and he'd produce no matter where he was or who he was playing for, and, in fact, he's producing at Duke in spite of K.

If they come in raw and produce later in their career (a la Mason and Zoubs), it was K, his system, and his inability to coach big men that was holding the player back for the first 3 years.

Case in point: Mason has been great this year. Therefore, he obviously must have walked into Duke with all these tools, since he couldn't have developed them at Duke. So where were they before now?

I hope that explains the Carolina pathology (which, unfortunately, affects our good friend (and excellent sportsman) Wheat) regarding their perception of Duke big men.

They also eat very late dinners in the Eastern Time Zone that prevents them from seeing a 9:00 P.M. game. :cool:

[Kedsy]

Highest compliment I can pay Tyler is that he is a "mini-Battier" (referring to the NYT no stats all star article from a while ago). He makes a huge difference for us when he is on the court that often does not show in the stats.

Tyler made some great plays yesterday, but I think you're going a bit too far here. He's not in the same conversation as Battier in his influence on the game. To me, he's much closer to a "mini-McClure." Which I think is pretty good, but not close to Battier.


It also seemed very fitting that Mason got another reverse jam at the Dean Dome to bookend his career there.

I mentioned the same thing to my wife while we were watching. To me it looked like Mason was thinking about it too, and purposely created the "bookends."


Congrats on a big win.

Thanks for being gracious. I, for one, don't agree with the crap you often get from other posters around here.


I agree with you dependent upon who stays and who leaves early for the NBA. I expect JMM will depart, but the key for Carolina being better next year is the return of Bullock and Hairston. If one or both of them decide to take off, Coach Williams will have another young and inexperienced team on his hands. If all three decide to return, Carolina will not only be better, they will be very, very good.

Does anybody think there's a realistic chance of Bullock and Hairston leaving this season? I haven't felt that outtahere vibe from them, and neither of them looks ready to be an NBA player to me. Frankly, I've been thinking JMM would have to stick around another year now, too. Would any of the three be likely first-rounders at this point?

[Durham Thunder]

The fact that ESPN is projecting us to be the #1 overall after this game has me worried.

Since 2001, the #1 overall has only won it all twice. Us in 2001, and Kentucky last year. It's March Madness, and that sort of superstition does show itself quite often.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

They also eat very late dinners in the Eastern Time Zone that prevents them from seeing a 9:00 P.M. game. :cool:

Actually, the dinner was a little earlier and we were just getting into desert by game time...then a few after dinner drinks and conversation...was hard to stay focused on the game.

I was raising a little money for my charitable foundation, (hows that for going all Dukie on ya?)

Would you like to contribute and fight cancer? Duke money is green too...:)

[Indoor66]

Actually, the dinner was a little earlier and we were just getting into desert by game time...then a few after dinner drinks and conversation...was hard to stay focused on the game.

I was raising a little money for my charitable foundation, (hows that for going all Dukie on ya?)

Would you like to contribute and fight cancer? Duke money is green too...:)

As a "surviver" I am already a regular contributor - but I thank you for the good work.

[Saratoga2]

Not sure what you saw here. He was 2 for 4 on field goal attempts. That doesn't even come close to "forcing" anything or a player with his ability.

He got into early foul trouble trying to go hard to the basket where there were smarter plays.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Does anybody think there's a realistic chance of Bullock and Hairston leaving this season? I haven't felt that outtahere vibe from them, and neither of them looks ready to be an NBA player to me. Frankly, I've been thinking JMM would have to stick around another year now, too. Would any of the three be likely first-rounders at this point?

My understanding is that Bullock has a family and beginning a working career could be a necessity for him.

I've heard nothing about PJ.

McAdoo should stay one more, but you know how that goes. He's definitely first round, probably late lottery this year, so he'll have a tough decision to make since next years NBA draft is loaded with potential.

[Kedsy]

My understanding is that Bullock has a family and beginning a working career could be a necessity for him.

I've heard nothing about PJ.

McAdoo should stay one more, but you know how that goes. He's definitely first round, probably late lottery this year, so he'll have a tough decision to make since next years NBA draft is loaded with potential.

Thanks. That's a shame about Bullock -- I just looked on the mock draft sites and he's mid-second round on DraftExpress and not listed at all on NBADraft.net. JMM is #19 on DraftExpress, #21 on NBADraft.net, and is not in ESPN's top 20.

Personally, I think Hairston may be the best of the three, so at least you should have that to build around.

[oldnavy]

My understanding is that Bullock has a family and beginning a working career could be a necessity for him.

I've heard nothing about PJ.

McAdoo should stay one more, but you know how that goes. He's definitely first round, probably late lottery this year, so he'll have a tough decision to make since next years NBA draft is loaded with potential.

That explains why he is cutting his own hair!

[Henderson]

I just got finished reading 36 pages of posts on IC -- all about last night's game (before, during, after). Man, was that fun. But going from this board to that one is like going from dining with grownups to eating at the kiddie table.

Oh, and one thing particularly stood out. Many kerliner fans complained that it would have been a lot closer last night if the "black ref" had made decent calls. :confused: Go figure.

[devildeac]

I enjoyed last night's game tremendously, almost as much as the 82-50 game and this one that Ozzie and I attended at the dump on the hump, IIRC:


http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20020131

[gus]

I just got finished reading 36 pages of posts on IC -- all about last night's game (before, during, after). Man, was that fun. But going from this board to that one is like going from dining with grownups to eating at the kiddie table.

Oh, and one thing particularly stood out. Many kerliner fans complained that it would have been a lot closer last night if the "black ref" had made decent calls. :confused: Go figure.

To be fair, I think that was one poster -- and others (other?) called him out for it. The amount of ref bashing was amusing, but not marylandesque. Someone will always complain about the refs. But the zebras didn't spot Duke a 14 point start.

[dukelifer]

To be fair, I think that was one poster -- and others (other?) called him out for it. The amount of ref bashing was amusing, but not marylandesque. Someone will always complain about the refs. But the zebras didn't spot Duke a 14 point start.

After the 14 pt lead- the game was essentially even ;)

[BD80]

The fact that ESPN is projecting us to be the #1 overall after this game has me worried.

Since 2001, the #1 overall has only won it all twice. Us in 2001, and Kentucky last year. It's March Madness, and that sort of superstition does show itself quite often.

EVERY SINGLE COACH would gladly take a 1:6 chance to win it all. IF a team makes the final four, it is essentially a 1:4 bet. Teams have to win 4 (or 5) games just to get to the final four.

[freshmanjs]

The fact that ESPN is projecting us to be the #1 overall after this game has me worried.

Since 2001, the #1 overall has only won it all twice. Us in 2001, and Kentucky last year. It's March Madness, and that sort of superstition does show itself quite often.

Also Florida in 2007.

[Ggallagher]

I just got finished reading 36 pages of posts on IC -- all about last night's game (before, during, after). Man, was that fun. But going from this board to that one is like going from dining with grownups to eating at the kiddie table.

Oh, and one thing particularly stood out. Many kerliner fans complained that it would have been a lot closer last night if the "black ref" had made decent calls. :confused: Go figure.

Wow - I couldn't have done 36 pages, but I did go through four or five. After the ref bashing, the other subject I noticed that seemed pretty popular was the discussion about Roy's hoarding of timeouts. The comment that cracked me up was the one that went sort of like, "... take a timeout!!??? that's not going to help us unless we can get a one year timeout.."

What a fun weekend of Duke - Carolina basketball.

[ns7]

Seems pretty far from a significant difference.

About rebounding:
Both teams rebounded well on offense, meaning both team's defensive rebounding was bad. I would expect Duke to be able to get ORs since UNC was so small, so it's great that Duke did so. So I'd say it definitely was not a strong rebounding performance (on defense) for Duke.

The defensive rebounding concerns me, and has all season long. But as long as the rest of the defense (FG%, TOs, FTR) are great like last night, the team should be fine in March.

[greybeard]

He got into early foul trouble trying to go hard to the basket where there were smarter plays.

When a guy gets way too closeto prevent an outside shot, the play for a forward is to try to make him pay. Blowing by on the right, slight eye fake and cross over to the left. Once you beat him (that should be if), you move ever so inside to put part of him on behind your inside hip and then you slow down because he is not getting in front of you. If help comes, you pull up, if there is room, shot it, if not, stop and get rid of it. Different play If you start closer than Ryan was, there is a clear line to the rim, and a chance for a bailout by going wide and finishing high off the backboard.

These are feel calls. However, if the guy gets in your grill far from the basket, either you make the plays that Ryan started or4 you have close company for the rest of the game. I think that Ryan on those plays went for too much and his defender did a good job of probably shutting off a pull up jumper. Sometimes, getting rid of it, even dribbling it wide and towards the corner is what you need to do, and then fight another day. Good defense.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

About rebounding:
Both teams rebounded well on offense, meaning both team's defensive rebounding was bad. I would expect Duke to be able to get ORs since UNC was so small, so it's great that Duke did so. So I'd say it definitely was not a strong rebounding performance (on defense) for Duke.

The defensive rebounding concerns me, and has all season long. But as long as the rest of the defense (FG%, TOs, FTR) are great like last night, the team should be fine in March.
I don't know... numbers aside, I thought Mason and really everyone hustled and grabbed rebounds with much more authority than I can remember - perhaps all season. There seemed to be an urgency about getting to the ball. Maybe it was our size vs. theirs. But I felt like there was an intentional focus on it and a real toughness about the way we rebounded - particularly on the defensive end. Maybe it just seemed like we didn't do a great job b/c the bad guys missed so many shots?

[greybeard]

I think this will prove to be addition by subtraction for UNC. He's high volume/low efficiency on offense - for example, he's taken exactly 100 more field goals and 92 more free throws than Reggie Bullock to produce a grand total of 28 more points. He had only 6 games all season where he shot better than 50% from the floor (and only 4 more with exactly 50%). In 2/3 of the games this year, he was giving the team less than a point every time he shot the ball, and he took by far the most shots of anyone on the team. Plus he turns the ball over.

If you believe in advanced stats, McAdoo had a worse offensive rating than every non-walk-on on UNC other than Desmond Hubert, yet nobody used more possessions.

If Carolina does not get a lot of shots from M they cannot win. He is the only guy who can either pull a guy like Mason away from the basket, occupy him in the low post, and get him to foul guarding somebody near the rim. I don't see how M can be faulted for doing what makes good basketball sense, not to mention what I think is inferrable, that is, what Roy has been telling him to do.

[fuse]

Tyler made some great plays yesterday, but I think you're going a bit too far here. He's not in the same conversation as Battier in his influence on the game. To me, he's much closer to a "mini-McClure." Which I think is pretty good, but not close to Battier.


Hyperbole, I agree, but meant in the best possible way. :-)

[superdave]

Just now going through last night's box score. Tyler played 28 minutes - 3 points, 2 steals, an early 3-ball. Rasheed - 15 minutes - 1 free throw, 3 boards.

Rasheed played 17 minutes vs. VT and now 15 vs. Unc. Is this a pattern or an aberration? I dont know but it is highly interesting. I suspect that playing Tyler Thornton big minutes (28 minutes in each game) has more to do with Eric Green and Unc's guard heavy lineup. But I hope this is not a permanent change in minutes. Our ceiling is higher with Rasheed. This may be the proverbial freshman wall, but I think Rasheed is a good playing and is growing into a great player. He can put this team on his shoulder for stretches. I would love for him to do just that in the ACCT.

Super "Fiance out of town, more time to post! : ) Did I say that outloud?" Dave

[Bob Green]

Super "Fiance out of town, more time to post! : ) Did I say that outloud?" Dave

You need to extrapolate that thought to the future! Wow, did I actually say that? Good thing my better half does not read DBR. :cool:

[-jk]

Just now going through last night's box score. Tyler played 28 minutes - 3 points, 2 steals, an early 3-ball. Rasheed - 15 minutes - 1 free throw, 3 boards.

Rasheed played 17 minutes vs. VT and now 15 vs. Unc. Is this a pattern or an aberration? I dont know but it is highly interesting. I suspect that playing Tyler Thornton big minutes (28 minutes in each game) has more to do with Eric Green and Unc's guard heavy lineup. But I hope this is not a permanent change in minutes. Our ceiling is higher with Rasheed. This may be the proverbial freshman wall, but I think Rasheed is a good playing and is growing into a great player. He can put this team on his shoulder for stretches. I would love for him to do just that in the ACCT.

Super "Fiance out of town, more time to post! : ) Did I say that outloud?" Dave

Doesn't matter if your fiancée is out of town. Does she read the board?

Oh, and I think we're at the part of the season where experience sometimes trumps ability.

-jk

[Henderson]

Oh, and I think we're at the part of the season where experience sometimes trumps ability.

-jk

I think that's a false dichotomy. Experience is part of ability. Like good lubrication enhances horsepower. (And so much more. :cool:).

[superdave]

You need to extrapolate that thought to the future! Wow, did I actually say that? Good thing my better half does not read DBR. :cool:


Doesn't matter if your fiancée is out of town. Does she read the board?

Oh, and I think we're at the part of the season where experience sometimes trumps ability.

-jk

When my Mom visited last fall, I read a particularly long post I was drafting out loud to her, to which she said, "Is this what you do?" Yes, mother, DBR makes me happy.

As for Rasheed-Tyler minutes, do we have precedent for a seasoned role player like Tyler gaining minutes in March over a really, really, really good freshman like Rasheed?

I just checked David McClure's final few games for minutes (14, 6, 16, 16, 23, 14) and that is consistent with his 15.8 mpg. I cannot think of a good, recent comp.

[roywhite]

Just now going through last night's box score. Tyler played 28 minutes - 3 points, 2 steals, an early 3-ball. Rasheed - 15 minutes - 1 free throw, 3 boards.

Rasheed played 17 minutes vs. VT and now 15 vs. Unc. Is this a pattern or an aberration? I dont know but it is highly interesting. I suspect that playing Tyler Thornton big minutes (28 minutes in each game) has more to do with Eric Green and Unc's guard heavy lineup. But I hope this is not a permanent change in minutes. Our ceiling is higher with Rasheed. This may be the proverbial freshman wall, but I think Rasheed is a good playing and is growing into a great player. He can put this team on his shoulder for stretches. I would love for him to do just that in the ACCT.


We'll see how things go in the ACC Tournament. Rasheed will certainly get some minutes, and if he plays well, get more minutes.

Similarly, looks like we'll see Josh as first big off the bench, but I wouldn't count out Amile.

[ynotme32]

Personally I think Sheed, Amile, Murphy, and Josh will all see more minutes off the bench especially in the first game of the ACCT. Coach K will plan on playing 3 games in 3 days, so he will use his bench more especially early if he can.

[superdave]

We'll see how things go in the ACC Tournament. Rasheed will certainly get some minutes, and if he plays well, get more minutes.

Similarly, looks like we'll see Josh as first big off the bench, but I wouldn't count out Amile.

Since Ryan got back, minutes look like this -

Josh 12,10, 10,
Amile 3, 0, 4
Alex 0, 3, 0

[Henderson]

Back to the thread at hand...

Duke has now won 7 of the last 9 meetings with UNC-CH and 24 of the last 35. That last figure is over 68%. Over a pretty long stretch. We may very well meet them in Greensboro on Saturday. Winning home and away against them by an average of double digits is sweet, but punking them in the ACCT just for emphasis would be particularly sweet.

[Troublemaker]

Thornton has been a plus/minus monster this season: http://www.scacchoops.com/TempoBasedStats.asp?sTeam=DU#

If you sort by +/- per 40 in that link, you'll see he ranks second on the team only to Ryan Kelly (of course) among rotation players.

We've kicked butt with Thornton on the court this season. So, to me, him starting or receiving starter's minutes is perfectly fine.

[superdave]

Thornton has been a plus/minus monster this season: http://www.scacchoops.com/TempoBasedStats.asp?sTeam=DU#

If you sort by +/- per 40 in that link, you'll see he ranks second on the team only to Ryan Kelly (of course) among rotation players.

We've kicked butt with Thornton on the court this season. So, to me, him starting or receiving starter's minutes is perfectly fine.

Great point. I miss the +\- threads.

Per 40 -

Ryan 19.2
Marshall 19.3
Tyler 16.3
Seth 12.7
Rasheed 12.6
Mason 12.1
Quinn 11.2
Amile 9.6
Josh 8.8
Alex 6.3

I think Tyler gets the appropriate level of minutes. 22ish. Any more than that and you get less of Seth, Rasheed and Quinn, and I am not ok with that.

I wonder how much the coaching staff pays attention to this. I know they know these plus minus stats, and I know it impacts their distribution of minutes to some extent. But that would suggest giving Amile more and Josh less, right? So it cannot be that huge to them. I assume having Tyler execute exactly what you want, in other words being an extension of the coach on the floor, is a big deal.

[Troublemaker]

I assume having Tyler execute exactly what you want, in other words being an extension of the coach on the floor, is a big deal.

No doubt. I know that in a recent postgame press conference, Coach K stated that Tyler is a future coach, and he constantly praises Tyler for his awareness and communication on the court.

Beyond that though, of the four guards we play, Tyler's by far the best big-wing defender (and generally just one of the best off-ball defenders in the league.) Obviously with our small perimeter, we have a need for that sometimes. Case in point, others have mentioned the nice job Tyler did on Bullock last night.

I think on a team like Michigan St that is full of rough-and-tumble guys but lacks scoring punch, Tyler wouldn't fare as well in plus/minus. I mean, he would fit right in with them; he just wouldn't be as valuable to them. At Duke, though, he's a great complement to the other four starters, who are extremely good at getting buckets but are more finesse than Tyler.

All that said, I agree with you that it'd be huge for Duke if Sheed could get back on track and, if nothing else, provide a scoring boost off the bench even if he doesn't reclaim his starting spot.

[superdave]

Case in point, others have mentioned the nice job Tyler did on Bullock last night.


Bullock 4-9, 0-4. 8 points last night. He's been averaging .442 from 3-land this year. And for some reason Jay Williams thinks he's an All-ACC 1st teamer, oddly.

GTHC

[vick]

Bullock 4-9, 0-4. 8 points last night. He's been averaging .442 from 3-land this year. And for some reason Jay Williams thinks he's an All-ACC 1st teamer, oddly.

GTHC

I'm not sure why this claim provokes such derision. I don't particularly like him either, but he's probably the best player on the third-best team in the conference--he's extremely efficient and, last night aside, a pretty solid perimeter defender. It's not really his fault McAdoo wastes so many UNC possessions with mid-range bricks and turnovers. He's a good player.

[greybeard]

Just now going through last night's box score. Tyler played 28 minutes - 3 points, 2 steals, an early 3-ball. Rasheed - 15 minutes - 1 free throw, 3 boards.

Rasheed played 17 minutes vs. VT and now 15 vs. Unc. Is this a pattern or an aberration? I dont know but it is highly interesting. I suspect that playing Tyler Thornton big minutes (28 minutes in each game) has more to do with Eric Green and Unc's guard heavy lineup. But I hope this is not a permanent change in minutes. Our ceiling is higher with Rasheed. This may be the proverbial freshman wall, but I think Rasheed is a good playing and is growing into a great player. He can put this team on his shoulder for stretches. I would love for him to do just that in the ACCT.

Super "Fiance out of town, more time to post! : ) Did I say that outloud?" Dave

Ryan gives K the chance to have Tyler on the floor for extended minutes. K has said that Tyler is one of three players who are coaches on the floor (the others, Curry and Ryan). Rashead will get his chances to really run at people or open up the running game. If, as is yet to happen (I think) either Cook or Curry gets into foul trouble early, Rashead might get to show you that explosiveness and scoring ability from the two position. Now, that would be exciting.

[ns7]

I don't know... numbers aside, I thought Mason and really everyone hustled and grabbed rebounds with much more authority than I can remember - perhaps all season. There seemed to be an urgency about getting to the ball. Maybe it was our size vs. theirs. But I felt like there was an intentional focus on it and a real toughness about the way we rebounded - particularly on the defensive end. Maybe it just seemed like we didn't do a great job b/c the bad guys missed so many shots?

Oh I agree that the team hustled, but you can't dispute the numbers--Duke only rebounded ~60% of UNC's misses, a below average figure.

I want to reiterate that I'm very happy with the win and the season. I'm just thinking about a potential matchup in the NCAAs when Duke will need to play lockdown defense against a stronger team.

[NashvilleDevil]

Oh I agree that the team hustled, but you can't dispute the numbers--Duke only rebounded ~60% of UNC's misses, a below average figure.

I want to reiterate that I'm very happy with the win and the season. I'm just thinking about a potential matchup in the NCAAs when Duke will need to play lockdown defense against a stronger team.

When Duke hits over 60% of their shots it doesn't really matter.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I'm not sure why this claim provokes such derision. I don't particularly like him either, but he's probably the best player on the third-best team in the conference--he's extremely efficient and, last night aside, a pretty solid perimeter defender. It's not really his fault McAdoo wastes so many UNC possessions with mid-range bricks and turnovers. He's a good player.
But players shouldn't be voted to All ACC based on their potential. Blame it on JMM. Blame it on Roy. Whatever. But All ACC production ain't there. So...

[vick]

But players shouldn't be voted to All ACC based on their potential. Blame it on JMM. Blame it on Roy. Whatever. But All ACC production ain't there. So...

How isn't it there? He's seventh in the league in scoring, while being more efficient than everyone above him (sometimes vastly so) and kicking in around 7 rebounds a game (12th in the league) and being a good perimeter defender. He will be very likely voted close to first-team all-ACC because he is close to one of the five best players in the league. How is J-Will's position worthy of ridicule?

[El_Diablo]

Oh I agree that the team hustled, but you can't dispute the numbers--Duke only rebounded ~60% of UNC's misses, a below average figure.

I want to reiterate that I'm very happy with the win and the season. I'm just thinking about a potential matchup in the NCAAs when Duke will need to play lockdown defense against a stronger team.

North Carolina is one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country, averaging 14 per game. It is one of their strengths.

Okay, yeah, letting them rebound 39% of their misses is not great. But we rebounded 41% of our misses.

[gep]

Re: Tyler and Rasheed. With Kelly out, Duke needed scoring, and Tyler is somewhat limited. Rasheed has the scoring ability, but is somewhat limited in defense (at times, and matchups). So now with Ryan back, and apparently in good shape, Tyler probably brings more to the team on the floor than Rasheed since scoring is not a necessity, and defense is a major plus. So start Tyler, bring Rasheed in for instant energy/scoring. Seems to be the best of all worlds. :cool:

[jimsumner]

Re: Tyler and Rasheed. With Kelly out, Duke needed scoring, and Tyler is somewhat limited. Rasheed has the scoring ability, but is somewhat limited in defense (at times, and matchups). So now with Ryan back, and apparently in good shape, Tyler probably brings more to the team on the floor than Rasheed since scoring is not a necessity, and defense is a major plus. So start Tyler, bring Rasheed in for instant energy/scoring. Seems to be the best of all worlds. :cool:

Except that Sulaimon started ahead of Thornton before Kelly hurt his foot.

Sulaimon simply isn't playing all that well right now. Duke's chances of playing deep into March/April would be significantly enhanced with a reversal of this trend.

[gofurman]

Right - we need suliamon to crank it up on O. When he is on the team is that much better. Potential for him is higher than Thorton. Also, I dont get the comment above about Suliamon not having D - or having problems with matchups. I thought that was one of his strengths, bring length and some athleticism so we had more defense now than last year? Is that not right?

[Kedsy]

Re: Tyler and Rasheed. With Kelly out, Duke needed scoring, and Tyler is somewhat limited. Rasheed has the scoring ability, but is somewhat limited in defense (at times, and matchups). So now with Ryan back, and apparently in good shape, Tyler probably brings more to the team on the floor than Rasheed since scoring is not a necessity, and defense is a major plus. So start Tyler, bring Rasheed in for instant energy/scoring. Seems to be the best of all worlds. :cool:

Except for the fact that most of the season, Rasheed has been considered our best defender. He's certainly a better on-ball defender than Tyler (although Tyler may be tougher and possibly might be a better off-ball defender). Also, I think Tyler's better in the "instant energy" role than Rasheed, and I believe Tyler's effectiveness decreases when he gets near 25 minutes or above.

I suspect the change against UNC was either situational or a recognition of Rasheed's recent slump and probably nothing more.


Right - we need suliamon to crank it up on O. When he is on the team is that much better. Potential for him is higher than Thorton. Also, I dont get the comment above about Suliamon not having D - or having problems with matchups. I thought that was one of his strengths, bring length and some athleticism so we had more defense now than last year? Is that not right?

Sulaimon

Thornton

[moonpie23]

From IC: Re K vs. Roy


Posted: Today 7:52 AM
Re: Roy vs. K
The best way to compare the two coaches is to find two identical periods in their careers and look at how they did.

In 1995, when it was clear that it was going to be a long, disappointing ACC season, K claimed he had a bad back and totally quit on his team. He then ran off most of his staff when he suddenly returned after the season concluded, and he hung all the losses on the coaching record of his assistant.

In early 2010, when it was clear that it was going to be a long, disappointing ACC season, Roy W truly was suffering from a physical infirmity (his shoulder)and problably could have cited that as a reason for taking off the rest of the season. Instead, he hung in there and actually had his underachieving team improving down the stretch.

No question as to which one is the better coach and the better man.




there's just ZERO way you can let these guys off the mat....

ugh...

[Bob Green]

THIS is why you should hand it to your tarheel co-workers

Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

[Channing]

(1) I loved Mason book ending his DD career with the reverse jams.

(2) regardign Rasheed and Tyler ... I think its as simple as Rasheed struggling and Tyler elevating his game to a different level the last 2 or 3 weeks. I don't see Tyler making the real negative plays anymore (or at least on as frequent occasions) and Rasheed has really been struggling with some mental lapse turnovers which seem to be in his head affecting his shooting. Also, I think Rasheed is just not quite strong enough yet, as he seems to always lose his balance (or get knocked off balance) when driving the lane.

I think when we play teams with bigger, stronger (although maybe not as quick) guards we will see more Thornton, and when we see more finesse style guards we'll see more Sulaimon.

[UrinalCake]

More comedy good from IC in the "Wiggins" thread... there's of course plenty of hair-pulling over the fact that their prized target for 2013, whom many of them consider to be their only hope at a decent season, just witnessed a thrashing to their arch rivals in a half-empty, dead silent arena. To make matters worse, apparently current signee Kennedy Meeks was hanging out with Wiggins later that night and tweeted several times that they were standing around campus alone, bored, with nothing to do.

The thread diverges into a discussion of UK and Calipari, where one poster claims Cal is making a mockery of college academics. Man, coming from a UNC fan that is really something!

Am I a bad person for enjoying this as much as I am?

[ns7]

When Duke hits over 60% of their shots it doesn't really matter.

In that case, I hope Duke shoots 60% for the rest of the season--we'll all be celebrating another national championship!


North Carolina is one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country, averaging 14 per game. It is one of their strengths.

Okay, yeah, letting them rebound 39% of their misses is not great. But we rebounded 41% of our misses.

OR and DR are different skills. For example, the 2010 title team was an elite OR team but an average DR team. I am just saying that this team has a weakness on the defensive glass. I hope it doesn't hurt the team in the tournament. As I and others have mentioned, this won't be an issue if the offense continues to be elite or if the defense is excellent in all other phases. It's just something to watch out for in the future (and I'm sure the coaching staff is working on it, they're quite smart). Finally, it seems as if I'm in the minority here so I'll cease my commenting in this thread on this issue.

ps. I would recommend not looking at absolute volumes of rebounds--UNC is one of the fastest paced teams in the nation and a poor shooting team at times, so they'll always rank high in number of rebounds due to sheer volume of opportunity.

[alteran]

Actually, the dinner was a little earlier and we were just getting into desert by game time...then a few after dinner drinks and conversation...was hard to stay focused on the game.

I was raising a little money for my charitable foundation, (hows that for going all Dukie on ya?)

Would you like to contribute and fight cancer? Duke money is green too...:)

Do you have a link or do we just send it to the First Federated Bank of Wheat? :)

[jimsumner]

RE: Sulaimon.

I believe he is emotionally over-dependent on having his first shot go down. Make first shot, good things happen. Miss first shot, he goes into a funk.

This is not unusual for a freshman. Maintaining emotional equilibrium can be an acquired skill long in coming.

K had an interesting comment on Sulaimon earlier in the season. He said that freshmen think that a missed shot is a mistake when it's really just a missed shot.

Sulaimon started hot this season, went into a slump, came back strong and is now in another slump. Another return to form looms, unless I'm badly mistaken.

[roywhite]

RE: Sulaimon.

I believe he is emotionally over-dependent on having his first shot go down. Make first shot, good things happen. Miss first shot, he goes into a funk.

This is not unusual for a freshman. Maintaining emotional equilibrium can be an acquired skill long in coming.

K had an interesting comment on Sulaimon earlier in the season. He said that freshmen think that a missed shot is a mistake when it's really just a missed shot.

Sulaimon started hot this season, went into a slump, came back strong and is now in another slump. Another return to form looms, unless I'm badly mistaken.

Good points. Rasheed's cycle of play certainly seems within a normal range of freshman variance, and we've seen just how good he can be.

I suspect K will encourage Rasheed to make a play on the defensive end to get his game going. Say a steal and fast break the other way; love Rasheed's speed and aggressiveness in the open court. A steal and a slam on the other end would be a great way to build his confidence.

[Saratoga2]

RE: Sulaimon.

I believe he is emotionally over-dependent on having his first shot go down. Make first shot, good things happen. Miss first shot, he goes into a funk.

This is not unusual for a freshman. Maintaining emotional equilibrium can be an acquired skill long in coming.

K had an interesting comment on Sulaimon earlier in the season. He said that freshmen think that a missed shot is a mistake when it's really just a missed shot.

Sulaimon started hot this season, went into a slump, came back strong and is now in another slump. Another return to form looms, unless I'm badly mistaken.

I would think another possibility is that some teams have figured out how to defend him to take away his offense. He always seems to go to his right on the drive for instance. In reality, it is probably some of teams figuring out how to defend him and a lowering of his confidence as he has worse results. In general, his defense is still good, so I don't agree that he is a liability in that regard.

[jv001]

I'm worried about Rasheed's handle more than his shooting. Lately he's just not strong with the ball. But I do agree with Jim that if his first shot goes in, he plays well. It seems he get's going too fast and out of control which get's him in trouble. I look for a turnaround Friday. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

I'm worried about Rasheed's handle more than his shooting. Lately he's just not strong with the ball. But I do agree with Jim that if his first shot goes in, he plays well. It seems he get's going too fast and out of control which get's him in trouble. I look for a turnaround Friday. GoDuke!

Teams have learned they can't really out-quick him, so they body him up because he's not real strong yet. That helps add to his frustration because he feels like he's getting fouled and not getting calls (and he's right most of the time). And being a freshman, it doesn't help to be demonstrative like he is, because while refs hate being shown up, they REALLY hate being shown up by freshmen. :)

He's going to have better luck in the next few years after refs stop treating him like a freshman.

[oldnavy]

RE: Sulaimon.

I believe he is emotionally over-dependent on having his first shot go down. Make first shot, good things happen. Miss first shot, he goes into a funk.

This is not unusual for a freshman. Maintaining emotional equilibrium can be an acquired skill long in coming.

K had an interesting comment on Sulaimon earlier in the season. He said that freshmen think that a missed shot is a mistake when it's really just a missed shot.

Sulaimon started hot this season, went into a slump, came back strong and is now in another slump. Another return to form looms, unless I'm badly mistaken.

Yea, I thought that Saturday would be the day. Maybe this weekend, but I do feel that he is going to be a factor before it is all said and done.

As far as the Tarheel nonsense, I learned a LOOONNGGG time ago to not argue with those folks. The ones that think that way about Coach K are really detached from reality. They have a prejudice against him and the only people that they listen too are like minded folks that just reinforce their world view. Facts, or opinions that do not support their view are dismissed.

I love to poke fun at Ol Roy, but I like to think that I am "somewhat" resonable about it.... well, maybe not, but I am not "obsessed" with it, ... well maybe not that either.... oh heck, nevermind!

I'll just stay out of this discussion!

[Bob Green]

I love to poke fun at Ol Roy, but I like to think that I am "somewhat" resonable about it.... well, maybe not, but I am not "obsessed" with it, ... well maybe not that either.... oh heck, nevermind!

Compared to the masses on IC, you are extremely reasonable.

[oldnavy]

Compared to the masses on IC, you are extremely reasonable.

That's the nicest thing anybody has said to me in a long time, thanks Bob (I think??) ;)

[Indoor66]

RE: Sulaimon.

I believe he is emotionally over-dependent on having his first shot go down. Make first shot, good things happen. Miss first shot, he goes into a funk.

This is not unusual for a freshman. Maintaining emotional equilibrium can be an acquired skill long in coming.

I agree. When he missed his first shot taken over in the Dean Dump I cussed and accepted that he would not be a factor in the game. It always seems that maturity takes time to mature.

[greybeard]

Except that Sulaimon started ahead of Thornton before Kelly hurt his foot.

Sulaimon simply isn't playing all that well right now. Duke's chances of playing deep into March/April would be significantly enhanced with a reversal of this trend.

Tyler is playing extraordinarily well. Extraordinarily.

[CDu]

Tyler is playing extraordinarily well. Extraordinarily.

I would say that Thornton is playing well and Sulaimon has been struggling. When Sulaimon is playing well, he gets the majority of the minutes (and Thornton gets the 15-20 backup minutes). When Sulaimon is struggling, Thornton plays more.

Thornton has been a very steady player for us all season. He's a smart, hard-working, team player, and his court awareness on the defensive end is very valuable. But it should be evident that he's very limited offensively. When we didn't have Kelly, I think Coach K had to be a bit more judicious in his use of Thornton, because that meant having two players on the floor for whom offense wasn't a strength (as our backup PF aren't quite up to speed offensively). But with Kelly back, we have more flexibility offensively. That means that Coach K can be more liberal in his use of Thornton, because there will be fewer minutes with two non-offensive players on the court.

The return of Kelly combined with the recent slump of Sulaimon is why we've seen the recent jump in Thornton's minutes.

[Channing]

As far as the Tarheel nonsense, I learned a LOOONNGGG time ago to not argue with those folks. The ones that think that way about Coach K are really detached from reality. They have a prejudice against him and the only people that they listen too are like minded folks that just reinforce their world view. Facts, or opinions that do not support their view are dismissed.


Along these lines, someone (UNC grad)I work with came into my office today and told me that this win gets an asterisk because Barnes, Marshall, and Henson all should have been on that court, and with them playing its not even close. It took me a second to realize he was serious, at which point I asked if we need to put an asterisk next to his hypothetical because we didn't have Kyrie or Austin playing in that imaginary game.

[jimsumner]

Along these lines, someone (UNC grad)I work with came into my office today and told me that this win gets an asterisk because Barnes, Marshall, and Henson all should have been on that court, and with them playing its not even close. It took me a second to realize he was serious, at which point I asked if we need to put an asterisk next to his hypothetical because we didn't have Kyrie or Austin playing in that imaginary game.

Ask your friend how that 2005 title run turns out with Deng and Livingston in Duke uniforms.

[greybeard]

I would say that Thornton is playing well and Sulaimon has been struggling. When Sulaimon is playing well, he gets the majority of the minutes (and Thornton gets the 15-20 backup minutes). When Sulaimon is struggling, Thornton plays more.

Thornton has been a very steady player for us all season. He's a smart, hard-working, team player, and his court awareness on the defensive end is very valuable. But it should be evident that he's very limited offensively. When we didn't have Kelly, I think Coach K had to be a bit more judicious in his use of Thornton, because that meant having two players on the floor for whom offense wasn't a strength (as our backup PF aren't quite up to speed offensively). But with Kelly back, we have more flexibility offensively. That means that Coach K can be more liberal in his use of Thornton, because there will be fewer minutes with two non-offensive players on the court.

The return of Kelly combined with the recent slump of Sulaimon is why we've seen the recent jump in Thornton's minutes.

Is that the average for the season, for since Ryan went down, or, more importantly, beginning sometime before praised Tyler through the roof in a post-game interview through topday? I do not know the answer. However, because Rashead began slumping when Tyler's game elevated off the charts does not mean that Tyler's improvement was/iws a function of Rashead's slump. K was only slightly less effusive of what Tyler brings to the court in a significant game that Tyler was pivotal to a Duke win than he was about Ryan after Ryan's spectacular return.

I'm going with K here.

[CDu]

Is that the average for the season, for since Ryan went down, or, more importantly, beginning sometime before praised Tyler through the roof in a post-game interview through topday? I do not know the answer. However, because Rashead began slumping when Tyler's game elevated off the charts does not mean that Tyler's improvement was/iws a function of Rashead's slump. K was only slightly less effusive of what Tyler brings to the court in a significant game that Tyler was pivotal to a Duke win than he was about Ryan after Ryan's spectacular return.

I'm going with K here.

I didn't say Thornton's improvement in play is because Sulaimon is slumping. I said that Thornton's good play along with Sulaimon's slump and the return of Kelly is why Thornton has played more than Sulaimon lately.

[oldnavy]

Is that the average for the season, for since Ryan went down, or, more importantly, beginning sometime before praised Tyler through the roof in a post-game interview through topday? I do not know the answer. However, because Rashead began slumping when Tyler's game elevated off the charts does not mean that Tyler's improvement was/iws a function of Rashead's slump. K was only slightly less effusive of what Tyler brings to the court in a significant game that Tyler was pivotal to a Duke win than he was about Ryan after Ryan's spectacular return.

I'm going with K here.

I like Thornton A LOT. He is a fighter and plays really, really hard all the time.

I am very hopeful that Rasheed breaks out of his slump, because with him on the floor, playing well, we have 5 potential 20 point scorers, and that will stress even the best defensive teams.

TT will get his minutes, because he is a little stud that won't back down from anyone and gives the team a little more of an edge, but when both players are playing at their peak, I think we do better with Sulaimon.... and that is not a bust on TT.

[CDu]

Ask your friend how that 2005 title run turns out with Deng and Livingston in Duke uniforms.

Not to mention how 2006 and 2007 look with Deng and Livingston being joined by seniors Redick and Williams and then by Scheyer, Henderson, et al thereafter. Or how much better last year's team would have been with Irving running the point. Or how dominant this year's team could be with Irving and Rivers in the starting lineup. Or how 2003 could have been another championship with J. Williams, Redick, Dunleavy, Jones, Boozer, S. Williams, Duhon, Ewing, and Randolph. Or how 2000 could have been different with Avery, Williams, Maggette, Battier, Brand, Boozer, Carrawell, James, and Dunleavy. Or how 2007-2008 could have been different with McRoberts, Singler, Nelson, Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, Smith, and Thomas.

All of the really good teams have been affected by early entry. Anyone whining about that should be slapped. Especially UNC fans, who have arguably been as fortunate as anyone with regard to players staying longer than expected. Lawson, Hansbrough, McCants, Felton, Ellington, Zeller, and Barnes were all guys either originally expected to leave very early or who could have left early but chose to stick around for an extra year or two. In fact, Kendall Marshall is the only player in the last decade (save perhaps Marvin Williams, but I don't think that was a difference-maker) that left earlier than anticipated. Everyone else stayed as long or longer than UNC fans could have realistically hoped.

[CDu]

I like Thornton A LOT. He is a fighter and plays really, really hard all the time.

I am very hopeful that Rasheed breaks out of his slump, because with him on the floor, playing well, we have 5 potential 20 point scorers, and that will stress even the best defensive teams.

TT will get his minutes, because he is a little stud that won't back down from anyone and gives the team a little more of an edge, but when both players are playing at their peak, I think we do better with Sulaimon.... and that is not a bust on TT.

Bingo. Thornton provides terrific toughness and floor awareness, and for that he'll continue to see regular minutes. But in terms of on-ball defense, defensive rebounding, and overall offense, Sulaimon simply brings more to the table.

When Sulaimon is playing well, Thornton is going to play fewer minutes (like 15-20 as the backup at all three perimeter spots). Fortunately, when Sulaimon is struggling, Thornton is more than capable of providing his toughness in Sulaimon's stead.

[pfrduke]

Along these lines, someone (UNC grad)I work with came into my office today and told me that this win gets an asterisk because Barnes, Marshall, and Henson all should have been on that court, and with them playing its not even close. It took me a second to realize he was serious, at which point I asked if we need to put an asterisk next to his hypothetical because we didn't have Kyrie or Austin playing in that imaginary game.

Worth noting that a worse Duke team beat the team with Barnes, Marshall, and Henson all on that court last season. Or does that one get asterisk because Tyler Zeller gave us 2 of our points? ;)

[Kedsy]

I am very hopeful that Rasheed breaks out of his slump, because with him on the floor, playing well, we have 5 potential 20 point scorers, and that will stress even the best defensive teams.

It gives us five guys who have already scored 27 or more points in a game this season (and all five have done it against ACC competition), the first time that's happened in the K era (and probably the first time it's happened in Duke history).

The closest we've come since K started coaching at Duke were 1992 (five with 26 or more; five with 25 or more in ACC play), 1999 (five with 24 or more, all in ACC play); 2001 (five with 24 or more, all in ACC play); and 2011 (five with 25 or more but only two of them in ACC play, as most of them happened with Kyrie in the lineup). That's a pretty fun list to be a part of (much less to be at the top of) and just another reason to think this year's team is special.

[BluDvlsN1]

Just got back from a cross country trip to the game with my son.
I just loved the way this team played, they were prepared, they were coached, and they executed.
Best of all, they took the dome from raucous atmosphere to stunned silence in a matter of minutes.

It was an amazing performance to watch, while there is always a part of you that wants a tight game
and "the drama".
This win has a place of it's own and I would make the case even a greater dagger
than the effect of "The Shot.

This game sends nc into the postseason with an all out assault on their newfound confidence and sends
them back to the begining of whats going to work and how do they execute it, at the perfect time.

Even their fans within earshot ultimately admittted, "they got schooled"

Only one anecdote out of many possibles.They are absolutely convinced Seth walks every time he touches the ball.

One play,Seth has the ball, he is yoyoing just about the spot of Austins shot last year.Seth is doing what Seth does,
shuffling , jukeing, looking for the edge, but he's dribbling.
This one guy off of my right ear at the top of his lungs, screaming He's walking, the guy was obsessed and not thinking.
It was my only glance of the night, with the "are you kidding me look"

But my absolute biggest critical observation is, that fan base didn't have the class/decency to stick around for their
really great senior. Dexter Strickland deserved so much better, and thats the most damning observation that
can be made about the place.

We were there last year also on 2/8/12 for the game and .."The shot" Just an unbelievable Duke win.
We were there on Saturday night, for the beat down, which has to be a major blow to their confidence going forward.

So by our accounts we're undefeated in the dome at ch. (yes that is tounge in cheek:rolleyes:)

[greybeard]

I didn't say Thornton's improvement in play is because Sulaimon is slumping. I said that Thornton's good play along with Sulaimon's slump and the return of Kelly is why Thornton has played more than Sulaimon lately.

K went off the charts in a post game interview about Thorton's play and value to the team way before Ryan's return. I do not know, but have a pretty strong hunch that before that post game interview K had begun using Thorton more than Sulaimon. Thorton is going to be tough to knock out of his spot, to grab minutes from him, no matter how well Sulaimon plays, unless, of course, he goes on an insane tear which would surprise none of us but I think is probably a year or two away. Thorton is and has been playing extremely well. I'm guessing

[jimsumner]

K went off the charts in a post game interview about Thorton's play and value to the team way before Ryan's return. I do not know, but have a pretty strong hunch that before that post game interview K had begun using Thorton more than Sulaimon. Thorton is going to be tough to knock out of his spot, to grab minutes from him, no matter how well Sulaimon plays, unless, of course, he goes on an insane tear which would surprise none of us but I think is probably a year or two away. Thorton is and has been playing extremely well. I'm guessing

Thornton. With an N.

[jimsumner]

Not to mention how 2006 and 2007 look with Deng and Livingston being joined by seniors Redick and Williams and then by Scheyer, Henderson, et al thereafter. Or how much better last year's team would have been with Irving running the point. Or how dominant this year's team could be with Irving and Rivers in the starting lineup. Or how 2003 could have been another championship with J. Williams, Redick, Dunleavy, Jones, Boozer, S. Williams, Duhon, Ewing, and Randolph. Or how 2000 could have been different with Avery, Williams, Maggette, Battier, Brand, Boozer, Carrawell, James, and Dunleavy. Or how 2007-2008 could have been different with McRoberts, Singler, Nelson, Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, Smith, and Thomas.

All of the really good teams have been affected by early entry. Anyone whining about that should be slapped. Especially UNC fans, who have arguably been as fortunate as anyone with regard to players staying longer than expected. Lawson, Hansbrough, McCants, Felton, Ellington, Zeller, and Barnes were all guys either originally expected to leave very early or who could have left early but chose to stick around for an extra year or two. In fact, Kendall Marshall is the only player in the last decade (save perhaps Marvin Williams, but I don't think that was a difference-maker) that left earlier than anticipated. Everyone else stayed as long or longer than UNC fans could have realistically hoped.

In fairness, you could go the other way. Duke got four years out of Shane Battier, J.J. Redick, Shelden Williams and Kyle Singler. Jason Williams would have been a top-5 pick in 2001 but came back. Not to mention guys like Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner and Hill staying for four.

Would Duke have gone 16-0 in 1999 if Carolina had Carter and Jamison?

Carolina took a big lead in losing guys to the NBA, back when it wasn't as common; McAdoo, Worthy, Jordan, Reid, Stackhouse, Wallace, McGinnis, Carter and Jamison all left for the NBA with college eligibility remaining before Duke lost anyone early.

Those are some pretty big hits.

Duke started catching up with the 1999 exodus and it is tempting to imagine alternative universes in which guys like Deng, Henderson and Irving hung around longer. But I'm not comfortable playing what-might-have-been without letting the door swing both ways.

[Reilly]

How many riots would've been prevented if Maryland faithful had their four Moses Malone-led national championships to look back upon fondly, rather than letting their resentment and sense of inferiority fester.

[CDu]

K went off the charts in a post game interview about Thorton's play and value to the team way before Ryan's return. I do not know, but have a pretty strong hunch that before that post game interview K had begun using Thorton more than Sulaimon. Thorton is going to be tough to knock out of his spot, to grab minutes from him, no matter how well Sulaimon plays, unless, of course, he goes on an insane tear which would surprise none of us but I think is probably a year or two away. Thorton is and has been playing extremely well. I'm guessing

And I'll say again: Thornton has played well all season. But Sulaimon has started (and played more minutes) almost all season. When Sulaimon has slumped (twice now), Coach K has made the switch to give Thornton the start and/or more of the minutes. When Sulaimon has played well, Thornton has returned to playing less.

I think that's simply how it's going to continue to be. Coach K has confidence in both players. What Thornton brings to the table is fairly consistent (toughness, team defense). Sulaimon's game seems to fluctuate more, mainly because he's a more gifted but streakier offensive player (and perhaps let's his offense affect his defense). So when Sulaimon is on a downtick, Coach K knows he can turn to Thornton and get steady though unspectacular (save for an occasional exception) play. If Sulaimon responds to his limited minutes by playing better, he'll get his minutes back.

That doesn't mean that Thornton will get relegated to spot minutes. He'll just be fourth in MPG among perimeter players (probably in the 15-20 mpg range, depending on foul trouble/injury/fatigue for the other 3 guards).

[CDu]

In fairness, you could go the other way. Duke got four years out of Shane Battier, J.J. Redick, Shelden Williams and Kyle Singler. Jason Williams would have been a top-5 pick in 2001 but came back. Not to mention guys like Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner and Hill staying for four.

Would Duke have gone 16-0 in 1999 if Carolina had Carter and Jamison?

Carolina took a big lead in losing guys to the NBA, back when it wasn't as common; McAdoo, Worthy, Jordan, Reid, Stackhouse, Wallace, McGinnis, Carter and Jamison all left for the NBA with college eligibility remaining before Duke lost anyone early.

Those are some pretty big hits.

Duke started catching up with the 1999 exodus and it is tempting to imagine alternative universes in which guys like Deng, Henderson and Irving hung around longer. But I'm not comfortable playing what-might-have-been without letting the door swing both ways.

I wasn't suggesting that we've been screwed. We had a LONG run of success in getting guys to stay longer than expected. And you are absolutely correct that UNC got burned more often earlier. But nobody over the past decade has been more fortunate than UNC in terms of getting guys to stick around.

As I said: everybody has been burned by the early entry era. It's just a reality of college basketball. To complain about it is silly.

[FerryFor50]

And I'll say again: Thornton has played well all season. But Sulaimon has started (and played more minutes) almost all season. When Sulaimon has slumped (twice now), Coach K has made the switch to give Thornton the start and/or more of the minutes. When Sulaimon has played well, Thornton has returned to playing less.

I think that's simply how it's going to continue to be. Coach K has confidence in both players. What Thornton brings to the table is fairly consistent (toughness, team defense). Sulaimon's game seems to fluctuate more, mainly because he's a more gifted but streakier offensive player (and perhaps let's his offense affect his defense). So when Sulaimon is on a downtick, Coach K knows he can turn to Thornton and get steady though unspectacular (save for an occasional exception) play. If Sulaimon responds to his limited minutes by playing better, he'll get his minutes back.

That doesn't mean that Thornton will get relegated to spot minutes. He'll just be fourth in MPG among perimeter players (probably in the 15-20 mpg range, depending on foul trouble/injury/fatigue for the other 3 guards).

Another thing to consider about Thornton is that it's not a 1:1 sub for Sulaimon when TT gets in the game. It depends on the matchups. I've seen Thornton on much bigger guys (like PF sized) because he's more physical than Sulaimon. I've seen Thornton on PGs because he tends to play a little better on ball defense than Cook does.

Thornton's a mini Swiss Army knife.

[mkirsh]

Also consider that part of Rasheed's recent slump may be his adjusting to Kelly coming back - everyone else on the team (including Tyler) has played with Kelly for multiple seasons, so they can fall into a comfort zone with him back in the lineup. Rasheed has played roughly 50% of his Duke career without Ryan, so maybe he is having a harder time with the adjustment than others (getting the ball in different spots on the floor, different driving lanes, playing with a pick-and-pop vs pick-and-roll 4, etc). Hoping that a good week of practice and solid run in the ACCT can get the full chemistry back heading into the big dance.

[oldnavy]

I wasn't suggesting that we've been screwed. We had a LONG run of success in getting guys to stay longer than expected. And you are absolutely correct that UNC got burned more often earlier. But nobody over the past decade has been more fortunate than UNC in terms of getting guys to stick around.

As I said: everybody has been burned by the early entry era. It's just a reality of college basketball. To complain about it is silly.

Hard to find a true UNC fan that isn't silly!

When our guys did stick around, it was some dark conspiracy perpertrated by Coach K that made them stay. Coach K lied to them about their draft status, or he said ugly things to them, yada, yada, yada....

When their guys would stay it was because they "loved" the college experience, loved playing for Roy, loved UNC, yada, yada, yada....

The extent that they go to create "stuff" is amazing to me. I have one UNC fan that insists that Mason Plumlee is "garbage" because he can only dunk, and he has no low post moves! This guy actually believes that MP2 is a horrible player. ???!! Bring up the stats and it's "that's because all he does is dunk".... to which I reply, so? (even though it is not true). If it is so easy for him, then why aren't all the other 6'11" players doing the same thing, putting up the same numbers.... silence, then the "all he does is dunk" arguement starts over.

They are not a rational lot!

[jimsumner]

. But nobody over the past decade has been more fortunate than UNC in terms of getting guys to stick around.

.

I think this is where we respectfully disagree. Marvin Williams and Brandan Wright left after a single season and both have struggled relative to where they were drafted.

May, Felton and McCants left after their junior seasons, 2005. The first two absolutely helped themselves by coming back for their junior years. McCants slumped. But he's a 6-3 shooting guard with some personality issues. Not sure he would have gone earlier after 2004.

Then we have the guys who came back for 2009. No way Wayne Ellington would have been a first-round pick after 2008. Lawson had a DUI and some injury issues. Did Hansbrough hurt himself coming back and becoming the leading scorer in ACC history? I suspect not.

The next group is Zeller, Henson and Barnes. Zeller absolutely helped himself by coming back and I'm pretty sure Henson did. Barnes would have been a top-10 pick had he gone after 2011. But he projected as national POY in 2012. He never played anywhere that level. But he left after his sophomore season and was picked seventh.

McAdoo? Who knows? He was a reserve last season. He came back, got a starting nod and some holes in his game were exposed.

So Barnes and McAdoo. Maybe.

Am I forgetting someone?

I think most of the UNC guys who stuck around made rational decisions. As did J.J. Redick, Shelden Williams and Nolan Smith, all of whom came back for their senior seasons.

Kyle Singler came back and may well have made a decision that cost him money. But he liked college and wanted a chance to help his team win. As did the UNC guys who came back.

[CDu]

I think this is where we respectfully disagree. Marvin Williams and Brandan Wright left after a single season and both have struggled relative to where they were drafted.

May, Felton and McCants left after their junior seasons, 2005. The first two absolutely helped themselves by coming back for their junior years. McCants slumped. But he's a 6-3 shooting guard with some personality issues. Not sure he would have gone earlier after 2004.

Then we have the guys who came back for 2009. No way Wayne Ellington would have been a first-round pick after 2008. Lawson had a DUI and some injury issues. Did Hansbrough hurt himself coming back and becoming the leading scorer in ACC history? I suspect not.

The next group is Zeller, Henson and Barnes. Zeller absolutely helped himself by coming back and I'm pretty sure Henson did. Barnes would have been a top-10 pick had he gone after 2011. But he projected as national POY in 2012. He never played anywhere that level. But he left after his sophomore season and was picked seventh.

McAdoo? Who knows? He was a reserve last season. He came back, got a starting nod and some holes in his game were exposed.

So Barnes and McAdoo. Maybe.

Am I forgetting someone?

I think most of the UNC guys who stuck around made rational decisions. As did J.J. Redick, Shelden Williams and Nolan Smith, all of whom came back for their senior seasons.

Kyle Singler came back and may well have made a decision that cost him money. But he liked college and wanted a chance to help his team win. As did the UNC guys who came back.

You're talking about season-by-season decisions. I'm talking about relative to where they were in their recruiting class (and thus what was expected from them as far as early entry).

McCants was considered a threat to go each and every year, but stuck around for 3 years. Felton was a threat to go at any time as well. Did they help themselves by sticking around for a third year? Sure. But it would have been no surprise if Felton and McCants left after their sophomore years. And more importantly, none of them left earlier than should be expected. They (along with May) were juniors who had just won a national championship. Their departures were not early by any reasonable standard, and should have been expected.

Williams and Wright left after one year, but almost everyone knew it was coming (they were expected to be a one-and-done guy). That Wright and Williams went after one year wasn't shockingly early in either case. Wrong decision? Maybe (or maybe they chose wisely and left before they got exposed in college). Earlier than expected? Nope.

Lawson was on the short list of best PG in the country as a sophomore. He was a game-changing guard. He had led a team to the Elite-8 and a Final Four. Yes, he had the DUI, and that's almost certainly the reason he came back. But nobody would have blinked an eye had he gone as a sophomore. That he went as a junior was one bonus year for UNC. And it was absolutely, positively, slam-dunk not early.

Ellington was not on the radar as a sophomore. But he was a McD's guy and as such should have been expected to be an early entry threat. So his leaving after a huge tournament run to a title should not have been at all surprising.

Like so many before them, Davis and Zeller were thought of as one- or two-year guys (Davis was considered a one-and-done threat like McAdoo, Williams, and Wright). Getting Davis for 2 years was all one could expect/hope for at UNC. Getting Zeller for 4 years was more than should have been expected when he arrived at school.

Hansbrough is a different case. He was expected to be a 4-year guy. But he absolutely could have gone as a freshman (would have gone mid/late first round on potential) or junior (would have been a late lottery guy). That he stayed for years is yet another example of a guy staying longer than most would expect.

Barnes is obvious. He was a no-doubt one-and-done guy who stuck around for two years.

McAdoo is obvious. He was a likely one-and-done who would have been a lottery pick, but chose to stay for 2 (maybe more now) years.

So you have Hansbrough, Barnes, Lawson, and McAdoo staying longer than should have been expected. You have a bunch of guys leaving about when they should have been expected. And you have Kendall Marshall as the only guy who actually left earlier than should have been anticipated when he was recruited.

Only one of their myriad of McDonald's All-Americans left earlier than expected, while at least 4 (and you can debate on several others) stayed longer than should have been anticipated. That's got to be the best success rate of any team in major college basketball over the past several years.

By comparison, we have Irving (one-to-two year guy who went after one), Randolph (four-year guy who went after 3), Deng (potential 3-year guy who went after 1), Dunleavy (4-year guy who left after 3), Livingston (one-to-two year guy who went pro out of high school), and Henderson (3-4 year guy who went after 3) as guys who went earlier than expected.

Guys who stayed longer than expected? Certainly Singler. Maybe Mason, Shelden, and Redick, though none of them was a strong draft candidate as a junior (Mason would have been a late-first/early-second and Shelden and Redick would have been second rounders).

[Papa John]

...I'm not comfortable playing what-might-have-been without letting the door swing both ways.

Agreed, and I think that's what CDu meant when he said "All of the really good teams have been affected by early entry. Anyone whining about that should be slapped..." The original observation was regarding a UNC fan whining about how things would be different if the Heels hadn't been impacted by early entry, as if UNC were somehow unique among college basketball program to have been impacted by early entry...

Carry on...

[CDu]

Agreed, and I think that's what CDu meant when he said "All of the really good teams have been affected by early entry. Anyone whining about that should be slapped..." The original observation was regarding a UNC fan whining about how things would be different if the Heels hadn't been impacted by early entry, as if UNC were somehow unique among college basketball program to have been impacted by early entry...

Carry on...

Exactly

[jimsumner]

You're talking about season-by-season decisions. I'm talking about relative to where they were in their recruiting class (and thus what was expected from them as far as early entry).

McCants was considered a threat to go each and every year, but stuck around for 3 years. Felton was a threat to go at any time as well. Did they help themselves by sticking around for a third year? Sure. But it would have been no surprise if Felton and McCants left after their sophomore years. And more importantly, none of them left earlier than should be expected. They (along with May) were juniors who had just won a national championship. Their departures were not early by any reasonable standard, and should have been expected.

Williams and Wright left after one year, but almost everyone knew it was coming (they were expected to be a one-and-done guy). That Wright and Williams went after one year wasn't shockingly early in either case. Wrong decision? Maybe (or maybe they chose wisely and left before they got exposed in college). Earlier than expected? Nope.

Lawson was on the short list of best PG in the country as a sophomore. He was a game-changing guard. He had led a team to the Elite-8 and a Final Four. Yes, he had the DUI, and that's almost certainly the reason he came back. But nobody would have blinked an eye had he gone as a sophomore. That he went as a junior was one bonus year for UNC. And it was absolutely, positively, slam-dunk not early.

Ellington was not on the radar as a sophomore. But he was a McD's guy and as such should have been expected to be an early entry threat. So his leaving after a huge tournament run to a title should not have been at all surprising.

Like so many before them, Davis and Zeller were thought of as one- or two-year guys (Davis was considered a one-and-done threat like McAdoo, Williams, and Wright). Getting Davis for 2 years was all one could expect/hope for at UNC. Getting Zeller for 4 years was more than should have been expected when he arrived at school.

Hansbrough is a different case. He was expected to be a 4-year guy. But he absolutely could have gone as a freshman (would have gone mid/late first round on potential) or junior (would have been a late lottery guy). That he stayed for years is yet another example of a guy staying longer than most would expect.

Barnes is obvious. He was a no-doubt one-and-done guy who stuck around for two years.

McAdoo is obvious. He was a likely one-and-done who would have been a lottery pick, but chose to stay for 2 (maybe more now) years.

So you have Hansbrough, Barnes, Lawson, and McAdoo staying longer than should have been expected. You have a bunch of guys leaving about when they should have been expected. And you have Kendall Marshall as the only guy who actually left earlier than should have been anticipated when he was recruited.

Only one of their myriad of McDonald's All-Americans left earlier than expected, while at least 4 (and you can debate on several others) stayed longer than should have been anticipated. That's got to be the best success rate of any team in major college basketball over the past several years.

By comparison, we have Irving (one-to-two year guy who went after one), Randolph (four-year guy who went after 3), Deng (potential 3-year guy who went after 1), Dunleavy (4-year guy who left after 3), Livingston (one-to-two year guy who went pro out of high school), and Henderson (3-4 year guy who went after 3) as guys who went earlier than expected.

Guys who stayed longer than expected? Certainly Singler. Maybe Mason, Shelden, and Redick, though none of them was a strong draft candidate as a junior (Mason would have been a late-first/early-second and Shelden and Redick would have been second rounders).

Okay, I think I see your distinction, although I don't agree with a lot of your assumptions. Rashad McCants was not a threat to go pro after his freshman season. I don't think anyone on the planet thought that Tyler Zeller was a threat to go to the NBA after a season or two. Or Ed Davis after one. Marvin Williams was expected to go after one but not Brandan Wright. Duke recruited Wright with the assumption that he would be in college at least two years.

And we both could come up with a pretty long list of Duke McDonald's All-Americans who didn't materialize as NBA prospects. I just don't think we can say that Wayne Ellington was a threat to go early but that his more athletically gifted high-school teammate Gerald Henderson was a 3-4 year guy. Henderson was always regarded as a better NBA prospect.

I noticed you omitted Josh McRoberts from your Duke list. The consensus number one player in his high school class, probable first-round pick after 2006, came back and fell to second round. If this had happened at Carolina, he would be Exhibit A for the prosecution.

And I'm reasonably certain Redick would have gone first-round in 2005. Williams? No. Singler after 2010? Probably, coming off his FF MOP. Had Singler gone, Nolan likely would have gone. But K didn't con them into coming back. It just made sense to them.

I'm not trying to come down on you. You're one of my favorite DBR posters. But there's a narrative in a good portion of the Duke fan base that Roy Williams is an evil genie who sprinkles magic dust on teenagers to keep them from doing what is in their best interests.

And it's just not supported by the facts as I understand them.

[CDu]

Okay, I think I see your distinction, although I don't agree with a lot of your assumptions. Rashad McCants was not a threat to go pro after his freshman season. I don't think anyone on the planet thought that Tyler Zeller was a threat to go to the NBA after a season or two. Or Ed Davis after one. Marvin Williams was expected to go after one but not Brandan Wright. Duke recruited Wright with the assumption that he would be in college at least two years.

And we both could come up with a pretty long list of Duke McDonald's All-Americans who didn't materialize as NBA prospects. I just don't think we can say that Wayne Ellington was a threat to go early but that his more athletically gifted high-school teammate Gerald Henderson was a 3-4 year guy. Henderson was always regarded as a better NBA prospect.

I noticed you omitted Josh McRoberts from your Duke list. The consensus number one player in his high school class, probable first-round pick after 2006, came back and fell to second round. If this had happened at Carolina, he would be Exhibit A for the prosecution.

And I'm reasonably certain Redick would have gone first-round in 2005. Williams? No. Singler after 2010? Probably, coming off his FF MOP. Had Singler gone, Nolan likely would have gone. But K didn't con them into coming back. It just made sense to them.

I'm not trying to come down on you. You're one of my favorite DBR posters. But there's a narrative in a good portion of the Duke fan base that Roy Williams is an evil genie who sprinkles magic dust on teenagers to keep them from doing what is in their best interests.

And it's just not supported by the facts as I understand them.

McCants hated school and could easily have left early. He wouldn't have done as well in the draft, but that wouldn't have been his rationale. He certainly isn't an example of UNC being bitten by the early entry bug like UNC fans would suggest. Felton would have gone in Round 1 as a soph. He absolutely is an example of UNC being fortunate. And don't for a second think that a freshman star PF wouldn't have gotten a sniff in the draft.

Redick was no more likely to be a first rounder as a junior than Hansbrough as a soph or junior. So that is advantage UNC in the fortune column.

And it is true that I didn't include McRoberts. Not sure why that matters. I wasn't ever really arguing that we have been so woefully screwed compared to UNC. In fact, my argument is that ANYONE whining about early entry is being silly. All good teams are at risk, and UNC hasn't been bitten nearly as much in the past decade as some suggest.

If you ask the average UNC fan, they will point to 2005, 2009, and 2012 as examples of early entry unduly hurting UNC. And that is ridiculous. Those early entry cases were so obvious it hurts. That is simply the price of poker these days. I am sorry that you seem to have gotten caught in the trees and missed my point. My point is simply that, in the extreme early entry age (last 10-15 years), UNC has by no means been hurt unduly by unexpected early entry. And anyone who makes such a claim sbout their team is being silly. I merely used Duke as an example of another good team that lost a bunch of guys to early entry.

[Newton_14]

McCants hated school and could easily have left early. He wouldn't have done as well in the draft, but that wouldn't have been his rationale. He certainly isn't an example of UNC being bitten by the early entry bug like UNC fans would suggest. Felton would have gone in Round 1 as a soph. He absolutely is an example of UNC being fortunate. And don't for a second think that a freshman star PF wouldn't have gotten a sniff in the draft.

Redick was no more likely to be a first rounder as a junior than Hansbrough as a soph or junior. So that is advantage UNC in the fortune column.

And it is true that I didn't include McRoberts. Not sure why that matters. I wasn't ever really arguing that we have been so woefully screwed compared to UNC. In fact, my argument is that ANYONE whining about early entry is being silly. All good teams are at risk, and UNC hasn't been bitten nearly as much in the past decade as some suggest.

If you ask the average UNC fan, they will point to 2005, 2009, and 2012 as examples of early entry unduly hurting UNC. And that is ridiculous. Those early entry cases were so obvious it hurts. That is simply the price of poker these days. I am sorry that you seem to have gotten caught in the trees and missed my point. My point is simply that, in the extreme early entry age (last 10-15 years), UNC has by no means been hurt unduly by unexpected early entry. And anyone who makes such a claim sbout their team is being silly. I merely used Duke as an example of another good team that lost a bunch of guys to early entry.


I was actually on your side in this debate and felt that Jim missed your overall point originally, but he acknowledged that and tossed you an olive branch to boot, while standing his ground on his key points, and then u snark him.

Your reply here is a bit too unfriendly in what had been a friendly debate on a great topic...

That said, since 2004, despite the heavy losses, UNC has benefitted from guys staying 1 to 2 years longer than was expected. That's where I feel Jim was not reading your point correctly. Whether the decisions to stay were rational or benefitted the player, (Staying always benefits the players game, just hurts the wallet) are not relevant to the point, and UNC got 2 National Titles they would not have gotten had even one of those key players on the 05 and 09 teams bolted.

I agree with Jim on McCants and Zeller, but Davis, Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo were all high lottery after one year and losing them then was high risk. Every year after was a bonus. Lawson staying a 3rd year was a bonus. The under age drinking charge stopped him for sure. 09 is different without him.

On our side, Singler and Nolan gave us an extra year, and Henderson family told Duke upfront he was a 2 to 3 year guy max. We got an extra year out of McBob that was unexpected as well.

[CDu]

I was actually on your side in this debate and felt that Jim missed your overall point originally, but he acknowledged that and tossed you an olive branch to boot, while standing his ground on his key points, and then u snark him.

Your reply here is a bit too unfriendly in what had been a friendly debate on a great topic...

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think anything I said was unfriendly (certainly wasn't intended to be unfriendly). I was merely stating my point. I called no names, used no snark. I was surely adamant about my point (standing my ground just as he stood his ground), but I don't think it was in an offensive manner. So I think you may be misinterpreting what I posted to be more negative than it was (or at least than I intended it to be).


That said, since 2004, despite the heavy losses, UNC has benefitted from guys staying 1 to 2 years longer than was expected. That's where I feel Jim was not reading your point correctly. Whether the decisions to stay were rational or benefitted the player, (Staying always benefits the players game, just hurts the wallet) are not relevant to the point, and UNC got 2 National Titles they would not have gotten had even one of those key players on the 05 and 09 teams bolted.

I agree with Jim on McCants and Zeller, but Davis, Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo were all high lottery after one year and losing them then was high risk. Every year after was a bonus. Lawson staying a 3rd year was a bonus. The under age drinking charge stopped him for sure. 09 is different without him.

On our side, Singler and Nolan gave us an extra year, and Henderson family told Duke upfront he was a 2 to 3 year guy max. We got an extra year out of McBob that was unexpected as well.

The bolded part isn't quite my point, though. My point was that UNC doesn't really have grounds to complain about early entry over the last 10-15 years any more than any elite team does. My evidence of that did include cases where players stayed longer than expected, and my counterexample was an illustration of cases where Duke had players leave unexpectedly early. But it was never intended to be a Duke vs UNC "who has had it worse" discussion. It was merely intended to be evidence of cases where UNC got fortunate and evidence of cases where another elite team didn't get fortunate.

Perhaps I was not specifically clear enough about that (I can see how someone would misinterpret my post, though some posters did appear to have understood), which allowed for Jim's misunderstanding.

[Newton_14]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think anything I said was unfriendly (certainly wasn't intended to be unfriendly). I was merely stating my point. I called no names, used no snark. I was surely adamant about my point (standing my ground just as he stood his ground), but I don't think it was in an offensive manner. So I think you may be misinterpreting what I posted to be more negative than it was (or at least than I intended it to be).



The bolded part isn't quite my point, though. My point was that UNC doesn't really have grounds to complain about early entry over the last 10-15 years any more than any elite team does. My evidence of that did include cases where players stayed longer than expected, and my counterexample was an illustration of cases where Duke had players leave unexpectedly early. But it was never intended to be a Duke vs UNC "who has had it worse" discussion. It was merely intended to be evidence of cases where UNC got fortunate and evidence of cases where another elite team didn't get fortunate.

Perhaps I was not specifically clear enough about that (I can see how someone would misinterpret my post, though some posters did appear to have understood), which allowed for Jim's misunderstanding.

Just making an observation. The "trees comment" came across as snark to me.. carry on...

I did get your point from the get go. It is the world we live in and it hits a lot of schools. UNC fan is out to lunch to whine about that in the last 10 years...

[CDu]

Just making an observation. The "trees comment" came across as snark to me.. carry on...

I did get your point from the get go. It is the world we live in and it hits a lot of schools. UNC fan is out to lunch to whine about that in the last 10 years...

In hindsight I can see why you would think so. I was just meaning that I threw a bunch of trees into the forest of my point, and Jim was perhaps getting caught in the trees which was obscuring my point for him. Didn't mean it to be snarky, and I do apologize if it came across as such. I respect Jim's work/posts a lot and didn't mean to offend.

[greybeard]

I got an awful lot out of the discussion of the contributions/talents of Rashead and Tyler, Thanks.

One of the things that occurs to me from time to time is that disecting offense from defense, transition from the half-court, is fine for commentary but for players it is of one piece. Some put the pieces together more seemlessly, more coherently than others. Rashead is like water flowing, with going to warp being under control and fitting within his and others' games. That to me is what makes the guy was impressive in addition to the many qualities already detailed here.

At the same time, Tylers' game fits in comparable fashion, imo. He uses his assets, not just toughness, steadiness, built like a cement wall with a low center of gravity, and intensity, but his understanding of space and, for example, willingness to vacate (go through to the other side, rotate) to open unimpeded room to operate for a teammate. This, I think is outside of an offensive set. He sees it and leaves, letting the guy with the ball, Curry or Curry,, usually with a clear out that wasn't there a moment before.

The speed and warp speed (also elevating) and fluidity and deceptive strength that Rashead presents has potential big time star written on him. When he gets it going, who's going to stop him. As many of you have said, it ain't gonna be K.

On the other hand, there is a reason that Tyler fouls out so often, I think usually picking up three in the last 10 minutes, two in the last 6 or so. He is the guy who takes it out of people, body blows that are not the stuff that brings foul calls but has to wear on opponents. If K is getting offense from at least 2of the exterior guys that leaves Plumlee inside one-on-one, I think it might well be Tyler, hit the other guys with body shots in the half court, and make them work like heck on the other end.

CDu made me think when he said that Rashead is a better defender. I definitely think that the "plays" Rashead makes are exceptional, just as they are at the other end. I don't know if your meaning CDu is that the none exceptional defense he puts out is superior to Tyler's. Might be a feel thing for K. If he is not looking for exceptional on both sides of the court, but rather predicability and enhancing the play of others, Tyler. If the other team is filing it up, expecially with the slew of unbelieveable point guard scorers in college ball today, there might be no choice but to duke it out. Then, I think Tyler gets the nod if Curry and Ryan have it going. I so like Cook going down the stretch. He knows when he has it (he can be a great scorer) and daggers teams.If Curry or Ryan are well defended and struggling a bit, then Rashead is a no brainer.

K has always liked to go down to the end with his best defender and the guy who on offense is the fifth scorer on the court in close crunch time games.

This is why K is K and we're not. Thanks again, guys, for someone who likes to think of himself as real smart about this stuff it is nice to be equiped with breakdowns that might help match thought with reality.

[Kedsy]

I got an awful lot out of the discussion of the contributions/talents of Rashead and Tyler, Thanks.

Just for your information, it's "Rasheed," NOT "Rashead."

[UrinalCake]

A couple weeks ago someone had a great post regarding early entry candidates at UNC. he broke down all the top-5 or top-10 recruits out of high school over the past 10 years and looked at how many of them stayed beyond one year in college. UNC had an alarmingly high percentage of them, like half of them from all of college basketball. I wish I could find the exact quote and could give credit to the guy who posted it, but the bottom line supports Cdu's argument that Carolina has either been very fortunate about their guys staying in school longer than expected, or they've been really awful at developing talent and preparing players for the next level.

[CDu]

On the other hand, there is a reason that Tyler fouls out so often, I think usually picking up three in the last 10 minutes, two in the last 6 or so. He is the guy who takes it out of people, body blows that are not the stuff that brings foul calls but has to wear on opponents. If K is getting offense from at least 2of the exterior guys that leaves Plumlee inside one-on-one, I think it might well be Tyler, hit the other guys with body shots in the half court, and make them work like heck on the other end.

Thornton doesn't actually foul out that often (4 times this year - though he has gotten 4 numerous times), and I don't think his fouls come in the last few minutes of games. His fouls come because he's extra aggressive (knowing that he doesn't have to play a ton of minutes as a reserve) and because he isn't the best on-ball defender on the perimeter (gets beat and fouls to compensate).

Where Thornton really excels defensive is defending bigger wing players. In those matchups his strength (especially lower body strength) and smarts compensate for his lack of height and his lack of quickness isn't exploited. That's part of why he garnered so much praise from Coach K while Kelly was out - he was often guarding PFs when our actual PF options struggled at times. (he also garnered his biggest praise after the first UNC game, when he hit several big shots in addition to his hustle plays)


CDu made me think when he said that Rashead is a better defender. I definitely think that the "plays" Rashead makes are exceptional, just as they are at the other end. I don't know if your meaning CDu is that the none exceptional defense he puts out is superior to Tyler's. Might be a feel thing for K. If he is not looking for exceptional on both sides of the court, but rather predicability and enhancing the play of others, Tyler. If the other team is filing it up, expecially with the slew of unbelieveable point guard scorers in college ball today, there might be no choice but to duke it out. Then, I think Tyler gets the nod if Curry and Ryan have it going. I so like Cook going down the stretch. He knows when he has it (he can be a great scorer) and daggers teams.If Curry or Ryan are well defended and struggling a bit, then Rashead is a no brainer.

I didn't say that Sulaimon was a better defender. I said Sulaimon was a better on-ball defender. There's a big difference. And I might even clarify further to say Sulaimon is a better perimeter on-ball defender (Thornton is a better on-ball defender in the post).

In matchups against the team's best perimeter wing player (specifically when that player is quick/explosive and doesn't look to post up or power to the rim), Sulaimon is a better matchup than Thornton. When there isn't such a clear matchup, or when the best perimeter player is more physical, Thornton's strength and better team defensive skills can be a better fit.

For the most part, Sulaimon's offensive superiority and perimeter defense have been the preferred option. That was especially true while Kelly was out. That's why Sulaimon has started so many games (even after Coach K gushed praise for Thornton after the first UNC game). When Sulaimon slumped earlier in the year, Thornton got the start. That sparked Sulaimon and got him going again. After Sulaimon again slumped for a few games, Coach K made the switch to play Thornton more in the VT and UNC games (even starting the UNC game).

If Sulaimon doesn't respond to the benching, this minutes arrangement will remain as is. If Sulaimon does bounce back, he'll return to his 25+ mpg starting role, and Thornton will return to his 15-20 mpg role backing up all of the guards (and potentially playing in a 4-guard lineup in a pinch).

[wk2109]

A couple weeks ago someone had a great post regarding early entry candidates at UNC. he broke down all the top-5 or top-10 recruits out of high school over the past 10 years and looked at how many of them stayed beyond one year in college. UNC had an alarmingly high percentage of them, like half of them from all of college basketball. I wish I could find the exact quote and could give credit to the guy who posted it, but the bottom line supports Cdu's argument that Carolina has either been very fortunate about their guys staying in school longer than expected, or they've been really awful at developing talent and preparing players for the next level.

I liked that tidbit too and did some searching:


Here's the truth. The ONLY top-5 ranked RSCI players to stay multiple seasons in the last 10 years have been Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants, Shannon Brown, Ty Lawson, Tyler Hansbrough, Josh McRoberts, Kyle Singler, Samardo Samuels, John Henson, Harrison Barnes, and Jared Sullinger. That's 11 players in a decade.

Six of those 11 went to UNC. That means that OVER HALF of the multi-year top 5 players in the ENTIRE NATION were at UNC. All played for Roy.

That's not all. Seven of those players stayed for 3 years. Felton, McCants, Lawson, Hansbrough, Singler, Henson, and Brown. UNC has FIVE OF THE SEVEN.

You can try to qualify it all you want, but numbers don't lie. There is no school in the nation where top ranked players take longer to get to the NBA than UNC. It's a statistical fact.

[FerryFor50]

A couple weeks ago someone had a great post regarding early entry candidates at UNC. he broke down all the top-5 or top-10 recruits out of high school over the past 10 years and looked at how many of them stayed beyond one year in college. UNC had an alarmingly high percentage of them, like half of them from all of college basketball. I wish I could find the exact quote and could give credit to the guy who posted it, but the bottom line supports Cdu's argument that Carolina has either been very fortunate about their guys staying in school longer than expected, or they've been really awful at developing talent and preparing players for the next level.

Or Roy is a heckuva salesman convincing kids to stay when they're ready to go to the NBA.

See how that worked out for JMM?

[greybeard]

Just for your information, it's "Rasheed," NOT "Rashead."

You don/t want to see me try his last name. Am I right or am I right.

[BD80]

You don/t want to see me try his last name. Am I right or am I right.

yoUr write

[dukie’s_daughter]

Having spent too much time on Pack Pride recently...My theory is unc kept really good players 'cause they'd be taking a pay cut to go to the NBA :p

I don't really believe that, but it's fun to speculate!

[BD80]

Having spent too much time on Pack Pride recently...My theory is unc kept really good players 'cause they'd be taking a pay cut to go to the NBA :p

I don't really believe that, but it's fun to speculate!

Actually, tar heels are afraid of the classwork in the NBA, its something they've never experienced

[Newton_14]

So, back to the game for a second. I never really got the chance to post my thoughts Sunday or Monday due to life demands.

The start was amazing and very similar to the start at FSU and Va Tech road game. Our guys looked extremely rested and fresh, and that is one thing I feel we most often over look throughout the season. The antithesis to the Maryland road game. The way the ACC schedule works there are just going to be games where one team is on short rest and playing a 3rd game in a 6 day period for example, and it absolutely matters in terms of energy levels and having that "verve" K often speaks on. Which makes the win against Miami on a Saturday following a 9pm road game at UVA the Thursday night prior amazing. Without Kelly we likely get blown out again.

But back to UNC. The run out to the 14-0 lead really knocked the heels back on their butts. Given their season, I think it did several things. 1. It put them in a hole right away that would require great focus and effort to climb out of. Instead I think it shocked them, put doubt in their minds and caused them to panic and press. Seth was destroying Bullock who had shut him down in the game at Cameron. I think that frustrated Bullock to the point where it greatly impacted his offensive performance. The heels panicked and started jacking up tough jumpers with a Duke player in their grill, which led to the bricks. Roy panicked a bit, as did Paige and it started snowballing.

As the half wore on and they could not find a way to cut into the lead, it just made their confidence sink lower. Meanwhile they were putting a ton of focus on Ryan, determined to not let him get going. That is the one thing that worked for them, but the downside was it opened up things for Curry, Mason, and Quinn. All 3 got great looks and took full advantage. On the other side, the addition of Ryan and the high energy level Duke was playing with as a whole, led to great defense by Duke. We were stymieing everything they were trying to do on offense, and limiting the offensive rebounding just enough to maintain the 14 to 20 point lead.

Honestly, had Duke defensive rebounded just a little bit better, and had Rasheed been on his game, I felt DUke could have easily ran the lead up to 25 or 30 in that first half. Unc was fortunate the halftime score was as close as it was.

In the 2nd half, Seth had obviously burned out and was suffering, but it did not matter because we started going to Mason who put on a clinic. He actually could have gone for 25 or 30 had we done a better job of getting him the ball, especially in those last 10 minutes of the 2nd half. I thought we settled for jumpers too often during that time when we should have been feeding the beast as UNC just had no answer at all for him.

Roy got disgusted with Hairston and Bullock and went with McDonald and two bigs out of frustration abandoning the small ball, and that did not work either. The zone was effective and Roy probably should have stuck with it a little longer as we just weren't getting good shots and made very few threes in the 2nd half. Again, had we went to Mason more and shot it a little better from 3 during that time, the lead goes to that 25 to 30 point range.

The one thing that surprised me the most though was the fact the UNC run never came. I kept sitting there certain the run was coming and worried we might make mistakes and help them back in it, but it just never came. That almost never happens with a UNC team under Dean or Roy. They battle back and make a run in games like that almost always. The closest they came to doing so was when Hairston hit the 3 to cut it to 14. But Quinn quickly shut that door with 2 straight baskets after the PJ 3 and then a stop and boom it is 18 again with under 3 to go. Very odd for a UNC team.

One last thought. As good as PJ can be, he has a pattern of not shooting it well in the big games against big time opponents. Not sure if that is a trait that will follow him though out his career or not. He shoots it great and scores well against the fair to middling teams, and sometimes get hot around the 6 minute mark in second half of games where they are getting run against the better teams in big games, after not being able to do anything in the first 34 minutes or so of those games. Good example is the ACC Title game last year against FSU. They were getting smoked and he started raining 3's around that 6 minute mark in the second half to cut heavily into FSU's lead, Once it became a game again, he went cold. Bad trait to have for a guy that can be a top line player on the team. He is a great talent, but I am not convinced he can be that star player and leader when it matters most. Will be interesting to track that in ever how many seasons he plays down the road for the heels.

Congrats to our guys. They came out focused with great energy and imposed their will for 40 minutes in the most hostile arena they play in each season. Very well done. I love our chances this weekend, provided Ryan and Seth can handle the 3 games in 3 days heath and stanima wise, and provided Rasheed bounces back from his slump.

This team has a great chance to be special in this post season and cut down 2 or 3 sets of nets.

[OldPhiKap]

The one thing that surprised me the most though was the fact the UNC run never came. I kept sitting there certain the run was coming and worried we might make mistakes and help them back in it, but it just never came. That almost never happens with a UNC team under Dean or Roy. They battle back and make a run in games like that almost always. The closest they came to doing so was when Hairston hit the 3 to cut it to 14. But Quinn quickly shut that door with 2 straight baskets after the PJ 3 and then a stop and boom it is 18 again with under 3 to go. Very odd for a UNC team.



As a guy who grew up with Dean @ Carolina, this is what I always dread. This Carolina team is really bad at shooting jumpers, though, and they do not drive to pick up fouls. Not really sure what the offensive plan is.

Carolina never covers the three on defense. But without a second big for the high-low post or secondary break on offense, not sure what they are really trying to do. They drove and had open outside shots, but were awful on the open shots. I am sure someone with better hoops knowledge can tell me what I am missing.

[tommy]

On the other hand, there is a reason that Tyler fouls out so often, I think usually picking up three in the last 10 minutes, two in the last 6 or so. He is the guy who takes it out of people, body blows that are not the stuff that brings foul calls but has to wear on opponents. If K is getting offense from at least 2of the exterior guys that leaves Plumlee inside one-on-one, I think it might well be Tyler, hit the other guys with body shots in the half court, and make them work like heck on the other end.


Thornton doesn't actually foul out that often (4 times this year - though he has gotten 4 numerous times), and I don't think his fouls come in the last few minutes of games. His fouls come because he's extra aggressive (knowing that he doesn't have to play a ton of minutes as a reserve) and because he isn't the best on-ball defender on the perimeter (gets beat and fouls to compensate).

You are correct. They don't come in the last few minutes of games. In fact, there hasn't been a single game in the 18-game ACC schedule we just completed that TT picked up three fouls in the last 10 minutes of the game. There have only been three games in which he picked up two in the last six minutes -- the first State game, the first UNC game (both in the last minute of this one in a game we were leading(?)) and the second Maryland game.

TT has committed 49 total fouls in those 18 games -- 24 in the first halves of games and 25 in the second halves. These include two technicals, which count as personal fouls too -- one in each half. He does foul an awful lot -- it's almost three per game in about 22 minutes, and his three foul-outs in ACC play all occurred in less than 20 minutes of action. But his fouling is spread throughout the game. There is no concentration of his fouls in the concluding minutes of games.

[Saratoga2]

You are correct. They don't come in the last few minutes of games. In fact, there hasn't been a single game in the 18-game ACC schedule we just completed that TT picked up three fouls in the last 10 minutes of the game. There have only been three games in which he picked up two in the last six minutes -- the first State game, the first UNC game (both in the last minute of this one in a game we were leading(?)) and the second Maryland game.

TT has committed 49 total fouls in those 18 games -- 24 in the first halves of games and 25 in the second halves. These include two technicals, which count as personal fouls too -- one in each half. He does foul an awful lot -- it's almost three per game in about 22 minutes, and his three foul-outs in ACC play all occurred in less than 20 minutes of action. But his fouling is spread throughout the game. There is no concentration of his fouls in the concluding minutes of games.

My concern with Tyler is that he fouls away from the basket when the opponent isn't really threatening to score. I have no problem when he fouls to avoid giving up an easy basket. I could say the same about when our bigs hedge well awaay from the basket giving up silly fouls. Those fouls can get us into the penalty, give the opponent easy shots and stop the clock. When this happens with Duke up near the end of the game I cringe and think here comes more of the poor end of game play.

[Lord Ash]

I can't help but imagine that Tyler and Josh are both told to play hard, and if they foul a few times in the process, so be it. They are players who we can afford to have saddled with fouls, and the trade off of fouls leading to the limit in exchange for hard, punishing, physical defense might be worth it. Maybe I'm off base, but I wouldn't be astonished if the coaching staff was okay with it.

[dukeofcalabash]

As a guy who grew up with Dean @ Carolina, this is what I always dread. This Carolina team is really bad at shooting jumpers, though, and they do not drive to pick up fouls. Not really sure what the offensive plan is.

Carolina never covers the three on defense. But without a second big for the high-low post or secondary break on offense, not sure what they are really trying to do. They drove and had open outside shots, but were awful on the open shots. I am sure someone with better hoops knowledge can tell me what I am missing.

I believe they cut a 25 point lead back down to 13 or so? Anyway, that's the way I remember it.

[hillsborodevil]

I can't help but imagine that Tyler and Josh are both told to play hard, and if they foul a few times in the process, so be it. They are players who we can afford to have saddled with fouls, and the trade off of fouls leading to the limit in exchange for hard, punishing, physical defense might be worth it. Maybe I'm off base, but I wouldn't be astonished if the coaching staff was okay with it.

Ditto - Each team needs one or two bruisers - especially Duke with the huge target on their backs.

Tyler and Josh have improved this year in strides. Kudos to the coaching staff and these two young men.