I am done defending Jay Bilas

[Lord Ash]

Okay.

I used to love Jay.

I loved him for what he did for Duke, both as a player and as a coach.

I loved him for how well he represented Duke as a broadcast, especially when compared to some of the folks from other universities *cough Len and Stuart cough*

I loved him for his sense of humor.

And I defended him against the legions of Duke fans who felt that Jay often turned his back on his school, that he often went too far trying to seem impartial, to the point that he was relentlessly negative about Duke while he heaped praise on others.

But no more. Jay... You are dead to me.

Want to know why?

Well, check out his recently published list of the toughest players in the last twenty years. Kirk Hinrich? Dwayne Wade? Juan Dixon? Tyler Hansbrough? Maternal Cleeves?

And yet... The toughest Dukie to put on a uniform, the toughest Dukie to have a black eye given to him by the equipment room as a part of his regular gear, the toughest Dukie to ever go diving into the announcers for a ball... And he isn't on there?

Redickulous. I am done defending Jay. He has just gone too far. Forget that there were NO Duke players on the list, forget that Shane wasn't on there and Nate wasn't on there... To leave off the toughest Dukie since Art Heyman makes it a joke.

[ForkFondler]

Yeah, he's dead. Gone to that great fourth estate in the sky. But, Maryland is far deader.

[hurleyfor3]

Well, check out his recently published list of the toughest players in the last twenty years. Kirk Hinrich? Dwayne Wade? Juan Dixon? Tyler Hansbrough? Maternal Cleeves?

And yet... The toughest Dukie to put on a uniform, the toughest Dukie to have a black eye given to him by the equipment room as a part of his regular gear, the toughest Dukie to ever go diving into the announcers for a ball... And he isn't on there?

Bobby Hurley was more than 20 years ago now.

[WakeDevil]

This is akin to caring about the sex of Kate Middleton's baby.

[SupaDave]

This is akin to caring about the sex of Kate Middleton's baby.

What sport does she play? :cool:

[Zeb]

Forget that there were NO Duke players on the list, forget that Shane wasn't on there and Nate wasn't on there... To leave off the toughest Dukie since Art Heyman makes it a joke.

I think its important to remember how Jay defines toughness: its not your willingness to play hurt (or to hurt others). Its how tough you make it for the other team to win. Singler was one tough competitor, but by Jay's definition I think Scheyer might have been even tougher. And the toughest Dukie in the past 20 years was probably Battier. Everything that guy did every second he was on the court was about making it hard on the other guys and easier on Duke. Regardless of which Duke player you pick, it is outrageous that the winningest program of the past 20 years does not have a single player on the list.

[Henderson]

I have a slightly different take. Jay Bilas does not laud Duke. Period. That's just not him. He doesn't do it. It's like a blind spot. A flaw. Like Bob Knight's anger. But I can recognize that and get over it. He's still one of the smartest, well-prepared, most insightful, well-spoken commentators out there. And he gave us GREAT years as a player.

[crimsonandblue]

I think its important to remember how Jay defines toughness: its not your willingness to play hurt (or to hurt others). Its how tough you make it for the other team to win. Singler was one tough competitor, but by Jay's definition I think Scheyer might have been even tougher. And the toughest Dukie in the past 20 years was probably Battier. Everything that guy did every second he was on the court was about making it hard on the other guys and easier on Duke. Regardless of which Duke player you pick, it is outrageous that the winningest program of the past 20 years does not have a single player on the list.

I thought Hinrich was on the list.

[licc85]

I don't hate Jay at all. He's one of the smartest, if not THE smartest college basketball analysts out there. It's pretty obvious to all Duke fans by now that the guy doesn't like talking about Duke, and I don't blame him. His colleagues do enough of that. It seems to me that throughout Jay's entire career, he's been trying to reverse the Duke hate. People hate us a little bit more every time Duke, Coach K, or a Duke player is mentioned in a game that has nothing to do with Duke, so Jay just compensates for it by NEVER talking about Duke. (Dick Vitale is by far the worst offender) I'm obviously speculating as to his reasons, I dunno, maybe he just thinks if he talks about Duke at all, he will jinx the team. So, although I am disappointed that Singler didn't make his list, who cares about a random list? Everyone knows how tough Singler was, and if anyone else had written the article, Singler would have been right up there.

[TKG]

Kyle Singler.

[davekay1971]

I thought Hinrich was on the list.

McClane killed Hinrich way too easily for Hinrich to be on the list...and Hinrich had the detonators.

Any list with Hansbrough that doesn't include Singler is immediately laughable and should be treated as such. Singler and Hansbrough faced off head-to-head many a time, and Singler out-toughed him every single time. End of discussion.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Whether toughness is defined as "dishing it out" or "taking it", you gotta list Laettner. But, my vote still goes to Battier, because he did it with grace --- and he's still doing it.
Love, Ima

[Lord Ash]

Remember, the list IS the last twenty years, so guys like Bobby and Christian can't be on it.




But Kyle "I am Iron" Singler sure as heck could be, and there is not a player on that list tougher than Kyle.

Ridiculous.

[captmojo]

And, exactly who is this Middleton woman, previously mentioned? :D:confused::D

[devil84]

Regardless of which Duke player you pick, it is outrageous that the winningest program of the past 20 years does not have a single player on the list.

No, but a Blue Devil wrote the book on toughness.

[jv001]

I think its important to remember how Jay defines toughness: its not your willingness to play hurt (or to hurt others). Its how tough you make it for the other team to win. Singler was one tough competitor, but by Jay's definition I think Scheyer might have been even tougher. And the toughest Dukie in the past 20 years was probably Battier. Everything that guy did every second he was on the court was about making it hard on the other guys and easier on Duke. Regardless of which Duke player you pick, it is outrageous that the winningest program of the past 20 years does not have a single player on the list.

Jason Williams certainly fits this description of toughness. Just ask the twerps. But for pure toughness Nate James and Kyle Singler should both be on the list. Jay Bilas is a great guy, professional in every way, very intelligent, knows more about basketball than Phelps, Vitale, Scott, Kellogg, Rose and S. Greenburg combined. But he does slight Duke way too much and I don't know why. Maybe he has a problem with Coach K :cool: GoDuke!

[hurleyfor3]

No, but a Blue Devil wrote the book on toughness.

Jay was just on the Mike & Mike show. He said Duke was the best team in the country before Ryan went down. He also mentioned a group of seven or eight teams that are clearly better than the field and Duke was solidly within them. But who cares, he hates Duke, everyone go off and try to diagram a Digger Phelps sentence instead.

[Lord Ash]

Jay was just on the Mike & Mike show. He said Duke was the best team in the country before Ryan went down. He also mentioned a group of seven or eight teams that are clearly better than the field and Duke was solidly within them. But who cares, he hates Duke, everyone go off and try to diagram a Digger Phelps sentence instead.

Sooo... he stated something so painfully and completely obvious that only a mouthbreathing fool could disagree with it? That doesn't mean much to me. What next... he'll make a list of things that are wet and include water? ;)

It is far more interesting to me that in something where his opinion is key, rather than pretty easy-to-see results like wins-losses and RPI and the most impressive early-season undefeated streak in recent memory, that not a Duke player (a program which has won more than almost anyone in the last twenty years and which is GROUNDED in toughness) is to be found, including honestly the toughest player I've ever seen, regardless of uniform. Come on... can you remember ever seeing Kyle without a shiner? Please.

[rsvman]

..... everyone go off and try to diagram a Digger Phelps sentence instead.

I find that this is much easier if you use a highlighter.

[gus]

McClane killed Hinrich way too easily for Hinrich to be on the list...and Hinrich had the detonators.


Perhaps, but crimsonandblue was replying to the contention that Kansas (the winningest program over the last 20 years) doesn't have a player on the list. Hinrich went to Kansas.

[davekay1971]

Perhaps, but crimsonandblue was replying to the contention that Kansas (the winningest program over the last 20 years) doesn't have a player on the list. Hinrich went to Kansas.

Well, it says nothing good for Kansas that Hinrich was involved in the plot to blow up Nakatome Plaza is an apparent terrorist attack that was actually a cover for an attempted theft of millions of dollars.

More to the point, McClane was tough, Karl was slightly less tough, and Hinrich was a complete weenie.

[jay]

Jay was just on the Mike & Mike show. He said Duke was the best team in the country before Ryan went down. He also mentioned a group of seven or eight teams that are clearly better than the field and Duke was solidly within them. But who cares, he hates Duke, everyone go off and try to diagram a Digger Phelps sentence instead.

You've just highlighted Jay's MO. He only talks about Duke when not doing so would make him look absolutely clueless. Other than that, I don't really think it can be argued...he doesn't like talking about Duke.

Whether or not that is a good thing is what's up for debate.

[azzefkram]

I'm with the OP.

"I Come In Peace" is no longer my favorite movie!

[crimsonandblue]

Well, it says nothing good for Kansas that Hinrich was involved in the plot to blow up Nakatome Plaza is an apparent terrorist attack that was actually a cover for an attempted theft of millions of dollars.

More to the point, McClane was tough, Karl was slightly less tough, and Hinrich was a complete weenie.

Possibly so, but Hinrich was vital in building the bonds described in the landmark book, Terrorist Hostage, Hostage Terrorist, a Study in Duality. You need that kind of glue guy when building a team, consistent with the Helsinki (Sweden) Syndrome.

[hurleyfor3]

For some reason Jay is spending a lot of time on The Espn Family Of Networks today. Probably something to do with publicity for his book. In addition to the Mike and Mike segment, he appeared on main espn this morning, and he will be on main espn this afternoon during "the 2 o'clock hour" (eastern, naturally) answering people's twitters or somesuch.

People like Jay, people can't stand Jay. As a mod this is the kind of holy war I try not to wade into too deeply. But something he said several years ago resonated: "If you pick Duke to win every year, you would be 3 for your whole life." That was during the 2010 tournament, so now you'd be 4 for your whole life, but the point is unchanged.

And he did say, on both his espn appearances so far today, that this year felt very similar to 2010. Interpret that as you wish.

[forbiddendonut]

Now we have a white raven
Ho-Ho-Ho

[jay]

People like Jay, people can't stand Jay.

And there is a whole group right in the middle who like Jay, but recognize that he says a lot of eye-rolling type of stuff, or his commentary is eye-rolling by omission.

But that's true of any sports analyst.

[cato]

Y'all are too sensitive. So Bilas may have snubbed Kyle. I'm sure Kyle isn't losing sleep over it. Hopefully he'll get a chance to show Jay how tough he is in Cameron one day in an old timers game. Until then, Kyle will happily worry about being tough in the NBA.

It is silly to disown the best and most successful former Blue Devil in the national sports media. I like Jay because of his insight (plus, his persona is amusing). I'm not writing him off for one perceived flaw.

[DukieInKansas]

I find that this is much easier if you use a highlighter.

Just be sure to color coordinate it with your outfit.

[The Gordog]

Y'all are too sensitive. So Bilas may have snubbed Kyle. I'm sure Kyle isn't losing sleep over it. Hopefully he'll get a chance to show Jay how tough he is in Cameron one day in an old timers game. Until then, Kyle will happily worry about being tough in the NBA.

It is silly to disown the best and most successful former Blue Devil in the national sports media. I like Jay because of his insight (plus, his persona is amusing). I'm not writing him off for one perceived flaw.

This. Jay was my classmate and always a good guy. I agree with all the good things said about his analysis and his on screen persona. He clearly loves Duke, but he also wants to maintain his professional credability, which he has internalized as not praising Duke unless it can not be avaoided.

I think it's unlikely any of us could stand in the national spotlight in our profession and not tick off a few fellow Dukies. That being said it still grates on me occaisionally.

[Henderson]

Jay is a bright guy with a bright broadcast future. I'll bet he's made the calculation that it's better for his career to tick off his Duke fan base than be seen by the entire rest of the country as a homer. It would follow him forever, and his employer would hear about it constantly. Even if he were only 100% objective about Duke, with Duke being so good so consistently, that's exactly what would happen.

And you know what? His failure to laud Duke doesn't hurt me, you, or the program one teeny bit. In fact, the program has an interest in keeping successful alums in the spotlight as much as possible. Imagine the coaching staff recruiting a kid and being able to say, "I see you in the mold of Jay Bilas." The kid needs to know who Jay Bilas is for that to resonate.

[Li_Duke]

Bilas just picked Kelly as the NBA prospect on the rise and wrote 3 paragraphs praising him. In the same article he lists Plumlee as one of his 8 deserving picks for the Wooden Award - though he feels Burke is the leading candidate.

[COYS]

Count me as one of the guys who likes Jay and doesn't mind his lack of Duke-homerism. First, Jay IS complimentary towards Duke on many occasions. He is also the most likely to give real, insightful criticism when he is critiquing Duke's play. I think he's usually right, too, or at least makes a valid point. He obviously NEVER does the simple "Duke sucks because Duke sucks" argument that so many analysts employ. And even when he repeats oft heard tropes like "Duke lives by the three and dies by the three" or something to that effect, he qualifies it with data.

Honestly, I don't think Jay acts much differently than many on this board (including myself). I can criticize Duke in far more depth than I can any other team in the nation because I know the team so well. I can call out Mason for occasionally being slow on defensive rotations and often getting bad position on hedges. I can look at our guards and recognize that we usually suffer a height disadvantage at the 1-3 spots. I can look at Seth and say that he is an amazing player but his already modest quickness has been reduced by the leg injury, which affects his ability to play consistent perimeter D and create his own shot off the dribble. I can look at our bench and wonder where any offensive production will come from if Mason and/or one of our perimeter players gets into foul trouble and has to sit for an extended period. No team is ever beyond criticism. In many ways, Jay is the best to provide it as he knows the program inside and out. He knows the high standards that Coach K sets and he is the first to recognize the areas in which the team falls short. None of this means that he has turned his back on Duke or is doing Duke a disservice.

Some of the UNC homers lose credibility precisely because they can't hide their fanhood. I'm glad that Jay is more professional than that. Also, like others, Jay makes mistakes . . . and he does make me roll my eyes from time to time, but that's no different than every single other analyst out there. Personally, I'm happy to have Jay be so successful. That he has been successful on the merits of his ability rather than with the schtick of being a Duke homer is a feather in his cap, in my opinion.

(And I realize that the OP was highlighting the omission of deserving Dukies on the "toughness" list, but I hope my point still is on topic enough).

[Lord Ash]

Again... not meaning to beat a dead horse... but everyone on the planet is writing about Ryan Kelly or interviewing Ryan Kelly and saying "If Ryan Kelly was from Europe he would be a huge hit of the draft!" And Mason is on every single NPOY discussion list that exists. None of these are judgment calls or anything; they are pretty much givens.

I do agree that maybe some of Jay being tough on Duke is related to him being so close to the situation, much like many of us are. I suppose that is natural. But come on... Kyle Singler not one of the ten toughest players? The only way that can be is if one is willfully omitting him.

And I can't believe my thread title was changed. A bit oversensitive, maybe?:)

3244

[Lord Ash]

Steve Wojciechowski ‏@steve_wojo 46 mins
A lot of talk about tough college bball players, deservedly so. Duke has a had a number of guys that would match up with anyone, anytime.



Couldn't agree more, Coach!


Please note: only one person in the photo below still has his eyes on the ball.

3245

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Now we have a white raven
Ho-Ho-Ho

This.

[devil84]

Don't you think asking Jay to pick only ONE Duke player to add to his list of toughest players in the last 20 years is kinda like asking a parent to pick his/her favorite child?

Remember, Jay was both a player and an assistant coach at Duke before he became a college basketball analyst. If he choose only one Duke player (or however many players DBR posters think is an appropriate number) whenever he comes back to Duke for various activities (for example, Coach K's annual Fantasy Camp), don't you think the others not on the list are going to try to prove how tough they are? As if the friendly banter wasn't tough enough.... I think I can see why he picked no Duke players.

Of course, I think all former Duke players (even those -- especially those? -- who are outside the 20 year window) are still going to attempt to prove that they're tough enough to be on his list, but at least Jay didn't pick one over the others.

Outside of dealing with repercussions with other Duke basketball players, picking a Duke player or two is easy, since he likely knows Duke players better than most others that he sees during the year as an analyst. It'd be tougher to pick from those who don't know as well. And since his book is on Toughness...

[Bob Green]

And I can't believe my thread title was changed. A bit oversensitive, maybe?:)

Not really, if we were oversensitive we would have deleted your thread and issued a "death penalty" infraction.:)

[oldnavy]

I like Jay fine as a commentator, but he got this one wrong.

Singler is one of the 10 toughest players in the last 20 years, no doubt in my mind. I mean how could you be tougher than Kyle?? Be the black knight in MP's Holy Grail?

For illustration purposes, did anyone notice the two tar heels last night McAdoo and Hairston?, both laid out like they had minutes to live for an entire play, only to get up after the whistle and walk off and check back in the next opportunity. Apparently the career ending injury that they both suffered was not quite as bad as they first thought as they laid on the court. No wonder Roy called them a name that is less than complimentary regarding their toughness.

This is not a tar heel specific thing, but since it happened twice last night, I thought I'd use it to point out, that Singler NEVER laid on the court like he was dying, he always got right back up, even after some pretty cheap shots (remember the busted chin, got up walked off the court, got sticthed up and checked back in). That was one of the things that I loved the most about him.

Sorry Jay, you blew this one there is NO good reason to keep Kyle off the list. Not sure why you would even make a list like this anyway? What's next, the 10 biggest wuzzies of the last 20 years?? You just know you are going to hack folks off... oh wait, maybe that is the point.

[Lord Ash]

I think the list came into being because of Jay's new book, "Toughness".

[hurleyfor3]

A bit oversensitive, maybe?:)

Says the guy who undertakes repetitive (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26861-DBR-please-stop-linking-negative-nonsense&p=535559#post535559) rants (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26812-The-quot-negative-comments-quot-feature&p=534315#post534315) about articles on The Onion (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26810-Sorry-but-the-Onion-just-isn-t-funny&p=534297#post534297).

[Lord Ash]

Not really, if we were oversensitive we would have deleted your thread and issued a "death penalty" infraction.:)

Well then. Touche:)

[msdukie]

Bilas hates Duke so much that the cover of the book is him standing in Cameron....

[Lord Ash]

Bilas hates Duke so much that the cover of the book is him standing in Cameron....

So what? Who wrote the foreword to his book?



















Oh. Whatever. My original post stands!


3246

[nmduke2001]

On The SVP show, Jay just said that Grant Hill might be the toughest person he has ever met.

[weezie]

Bilas hates Duke so much that the cover of the book is him standing in Cameron....

I still like Jay! He's handsome and that goes a long way with me. Plus, he smiled and winked at me when the ACC tourney was last in DC and I cheered for him as he walked by.
So, there!

[Lord Ash]

Grant? Really? Interesting... Grant would not have been in, say, my top five of Duke players when I think tough. Then again, what it took to come back from his injuries was really stunning. If you haven't, I highly recommend watching the Oprah masterclass show about him... It was fantastic, and really gave a lot of insight into that time of his life (which I have to admit I didn't understand was so serious).

[Black Mambo]

I still like Jay! He's handsome and that goes a long way with me. Plus, he smiled and winked at me when the ACC tourney was last in DC and I cheered for him as he walked by.
So, there!

There is no flirting in basketball...unless you're flirting with a triple-double.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Count me as one of the guys who likes Jay and doesn't mind his lack of Duke-homerism. First, Jay IS complimentary towards Duke on many occasions. He is also the most likely to give real, insightful criticism when he is critiquing Duke's play. I think he's usually right, too, or at least makes a valid point. He obviously NEVER does the simple "Duke sucks because Duke sucks" argument that so many analysts employ. And even when he repeats oft heard tropes like "Duke lives by the three and dies by the three" or something to that effect, he qualifies it with data.

Honestly, I don't think Jay acts much differently than many on this board (including myself). I can criticize Duke in far more depth than I can any other team in the nation because I know the team so well. I can call out Mason for occasionally being slow on defensive rotations and often getting bad position on hedges. I can look at our guards and recognize that we usually suffer a height disadvantage at the 1-3 spots. I can look at Seth and say that he is an amazing player but his already modest quickness has been reduced by the leg injury, which affects his ability to play consistent perimeter D and create his own shot off the dribble. I can look at our bench and wonder where any offensive production will come from if Mason and/or one of our perimeter players gets into foul trouble and has to sit for an extended period. No team is ever beyond criticism. In many ways, Jay is the best to provide it as he knows the program inside and out. He knows the high standards that Coach K sets and he is the first to recognize the areas in which the team falls short. None of this means that he has turned his back on Duke or is doing Duke a disservice.

Some of the UNC homers lose credibility precisely because they can't hide their fanhood. I'm glad that Jay is more professional than that. Also, like others, Jay makes mistakes . . . and he does make me roll my eyes from time to time, but that's no different than every single other analyst out there. Personally, I'm happy to have Jay be so successful. That he has been successful on the merits of his ability rather than with the schtick of being a Duke homer is a feather in his cap, in my opinion.

(And I realize that the OP was highlighting the omission of deserving Dukies on the "toughness" list, but I hope my point still is on topic enough).

The frustration, to me, is not that Bilas is Anti-Duke, it's that other analysts are such cheerleaders for their respective former teams, like Stuart Scott, Kenny Walker, Mike Tirico, SVP, etc. and apparently no one calls them out for it.

Jay and Seth Davis realize that if they displayed that type of homerism, they'd get killed by the media REAL fast.

So the question is why the double standard by national and local media?

[Indoor66]

I find that this is much easier if you use a highlighter.

Nope. Not enough colors in Pantone to highlight a Digger sentence.

[gep]

The frustration, to me, is not that Bilas is Anti-Duke, it's that other analysts are such cheerleaders for their respective former teams, like Stuart Scott, Kenny Walker, Mike Tirico, SVP, etc. and apparently no one calls them out for it.

Jay and Seth Davis realize that if they displayed that type of homerism, they'd get killed by the media REAL fast.

So the question is why the double standard by national and local media?

Because it is DUKE!!!!!

Let them say what they want. Thankfully for themselves, they don't play the games.

GO DUKE!!!!

[El_Diablo]

On The SVP show, Jay just said that Grant Hill might be the toughest person he has ever met.

Wait...if Grant was the toughest person he has ever met, why was he not on his list? Am I missing something?

[nyesq83]

Jay's blindness to the administration's ongoing China folly parallels his detachment from reality when it comes to Duke at any given moment.

I don't get or watch ESPN regularly, so I don't stress any more about his excessive neutrality.

As long as the team wins, I don't really care what his teevee persona says.

[Lord Ash]

The list is the last twenty years.

No one else is at least a little surprised at Grant being the toughest guy Jay has ever met? I bet if I had asked who was the toughest guy from that team independent of this most of you would say Christian or even Bobby (whining freshman year aside.)

And no JayWill? People didn't think he would walk again after his accident... And yet he almost made it all the way back to the NBA!

Btw, can anyone explain... Maybe I didn't watch Dwayne that closely, but was Dwayne Wade known for being tough? Or just really good?

[oldnavy]

The list is the last twenty years.

No one else is at least a little surprised at Grant being the toughest guy Jay has ever met? I bet if I had asked who was the toughest guy from that team independent of this most of you would say Christian or even Bobby (whining freshman year aside.)

And no JayWill? People didn't think he would walk again after his accident... And yet he almost made it all the way back to the NBA!

Btw, can anyone explain... Maybe I didn't watch Dwayne that closely, but was Dwayne Wade known for being tough? Or just really good?

Grant Hill isn't the first name or 5 to pop into my head as toughest.

Here's the thing, Jay is pretty close to the program, so he sees or has seen things from a different perspective than most of us. Plus this is as subjective of a list as it gets. Jay's definition of tough may not be anything like mine. Maybe Grant was REALLY tough at practices and in the locker room and played with a lot more pain than we know about?? I do find it a little odd that there is no Duke player on that list, but it is Jay's list not mine.

I still like Bilas as a commentator, but I have Singler on my list, and in the top 3 of that list.

I would be much more interested in Coach K's list than Bilas'. Coach K is all about being TOUGH, so it would be very interesting to hear who would make his list.

[heyman25]

More on Jay Bilas.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/03/07/jay-bilas-espn-duke/1972371/
He is a lawyer and he has his opinions.

[hood7]

The list is the last twenty years.

Well, Grant played at Duke in 1994 (within the last 20 years) so should be on Jay's list if Jay really thinks Grant is that tough. I always admired Grant's quiet and calm strength, and maybe that quiet is why I never really considered his 'toughness' - maybe you have to be in his inner circle to recognize it.

[brevity]

Wait...if Grant was the toughest person he has ever met, why was he not on his list? Am I missing something?


The list is the last twenty years.

I was ready to tell El Diablo to do the math, but then... I did the math. Assuming Bilas' last 20 years ends with the 2011-2012 season, then it starts with the 1992-1993 season. Which means half of Grant's career is included. The more probable answer to the question is that Bilas' opinion of Grant's toughness is largely shaped by his NBA career. Since we at DBR constantly criticize listmakers who elevate a certain UNC alum's collegiate accomplishments because of his later work, we can't fault someone for sticking to the criteria.

Maybe Bilas means to restrict his observations to when he wore the media hat, and not the assistant coach hat. Anyway, his site devotes a page to it here (http://jaybilas.com/toughness.html).* Separate excerpts can be found from MSNBC (http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/03/07/an-excerpt-from-jay-bilas-toughness-developing-true-strength-on-and-off-the-court/) and ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8970571/toughness-jay-bilas-book-excerpt-college-basketball). Finally, there's this link:

http://www.mdbball.com/Documents/ToughnessbyJayBilas.pdf

It's a 6-page PDF, presumably an excerpt, outlining what fundamentals he looks for to consider a player tough. In case you're wondering about the URL, it stands for Minnesota Developmental Basketball.

My fandom is a bit more measured than most of you, so I find myself agreeing in general with Jay Bilas. I interpret his media persona as being more pro-college basketball than pro-Duke. I'll read the book and resurrect this thread -- pun intended -- to share further insight.

*This page quotes a review from the also-maligned Seth Davis, which opens with "Make sure you are holding a yellow highlighter when you read this book." I wonder if he was directing that line toward a specific person...

[El_Diablo]

Well, Grant played at Duke in 1994 (within the last 20 years) so should be on Jay's list if Jay really thinks Grant is that tough.

Exactly.

However, after going to the article and reading the intro, I would say that it seems he uses "20 years" rather loosely and is mainly just talking about his time as a broadcaster. But since he began broadcast work in 1993 for Cable 13, that should still cover some of Grant Hill's career (and match up with the 20 years). Maybe by last 20 years in broadcasting, he really just meant last 18 years in national broadcasting, since he began working at ESPN in 1995. In that case, fine, no Grant Hill. Although if someone sticks out in your mind as being the toughest person you have ever met, it seems a little odd to choose an arbitrary temporal cutoff for your list that excludes that person.

Maybe he considers Grant Hill a tough person but not a tough player. Or maybe he thinks he became a tough player at some point after playing at Duke. Or maybe he just knew it would drive Duke fans crazy to not have any Blue Devils on his list, which would generate some more attention for his book.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Jay's blindness to the administration's ongoing China folly parallels his detachment from reality when it comes to Duke at any given moment.

I don't get or watch ESPN regularly, so I don't stress any more about his excessive neutrality.

As long as the team wins, I don't really care what his teevee persona says.

A few years ago Jay did write a very well reasoned letter about the disappointing performance of the president of the university and other administrators in the handling of the lacrosse affair. Jay was concerned about how the university disassociated itself from these students. The letter was available online for a very short period of time, then disappeared into some sort of archive maintained by Alumni Affairs.

I feel at odds with a variety of issues in the operation of the university. I consider myself to be a very involved alumna over the years, but I don't seek to deal with all those issues directly. Does that make me blind? Does that make me detached? Absolutely not. And I don't think Jay is blind to various foibles unfolding daily. I suspect that he probably knows more about some of the behind the scenes activities than the rest of us. Whatever he says or does about any concerns is not likely to be shared with the rest of the world.

[brevity]

I'll read the book and resurrect this thread -- pun intended -- to share further insight.

Just finished the book. I plan to start a thread this offseason about college basketball books, but until then, here are some thoughts.

* His list of toughest players is not in the book. Internet searches tell me that his list appears in the ESPN Insider blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/bilas_jay/id/9021970/mateen-cleaves-tops-list-toughest-players-20-years-college-basketball), posted March 6, probably as a way to promote the book. Not an Insider anymore, I found the list here (http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2013/03/espns_jay_bilas_lists_michigan.html). It names Bilas' 10 toughest college basketball players over the past 20 years:

1. Mateen Cleaves, Michigan State
2. Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina
3. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Kentucky
4. P.J. Tucker, Texas
5. Juan Dixon, Maryland
6. Dwyane Wade, Marquette
7. Kenneth Faried, Morehead State
8. Draymond Green, Michigan State
9. Kirk Hinrich, Kansas
10. Ronald Nored, Butler

I can't speak to the reasoning here because none of these players appear in the book. The book's framework is autobiographical, so he mostly discusses David Henderson, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, and a little bit about Johnny Dawkins. There's a lot of input from Grant Hill, covering both his college and pro career.

* The book, if nothing else, is definitive. If anyone asks, "Who wrote the book on toughness?" here's your answer. Bilas clearly sets forth what he means when he talks about toughness, and it would be unfair for me to try to sum up his whole book in a sentence. Obviously Bilas' story operates within the world of sports, and it should become standard reference reading for every coach and player, but its lessons apply anywhere. I'm hoping, for the book's sake, that it finds a larger audience that normally gravitates toward the more broad works of Joel Osteen or Phil McGraw. I don't know if millions of people would want to read this book, but self-help sales indicate that they probably need to read it.

* For those concerned about Bilas and his loyalties, they're firmly entrenched at Duke. He discusses the broad subject of toughness with a lot of people, most of them from the ESPN family, but there's a fairly steady undercurrent of Coach K's teachings throughout the book. Forced to be honest, he can't gloss over the fact that Coach K either taught him toughness or reinforced the earlier teachings of Bilas' parents and youth coaches. (Roy Williams does appear, but I would break down his purpose in the book as follows: 70% relaying Dean Smith stories, 20% discussing his own coaching experience, 10% golf.)

* Finally, it's a good book about basketball. The 1986 class was before my time, and while Bilas doesn't spend a lot of time covering it, I learned quite a bit anyway. Because its author was a player, assistant coach, and now analyst/commentator, the book approaches the sport from multiple angles, each fascinating.

[DCGeneral]

Okay.

I used to love Jay.

I loved him for what he did for Duke, both as a player and as a coach.

I loved him for how well he represented Duke as a broadcast, especially when compared to some of the folks from other universities *cough Len and Stuart cough*

I loved him for his sense of humor.

And I defended him against the legions of Duke fans who felt that Jay often turned his back on his school, that he often went too far trying to seem impartial, to the point that he was relentlessly negative about Duke while he heaped praise on others.

But no more. Jay... You are dead to me.

Want to know why?

Well, check out his recently published list of the toughest players in the last twenty years. Kirk Hinrich? Dwayne Wade? Juan Dixon? Tyler Hansbrough? Maternal Cleeves?

And yet... The toughest Dukie to put on a uniform, the toughest Dukie to have a black eye given to him by the equipment room as a part of his regular gear, the toughest Dukie to ever go diving into the announcers for a ball... And he isn't on there?

Redickulous. I am done defending Jay. He has just gone too far. Forget that there were NO Duke players on the list, forget that Shane wasn't on there and Nate wasn't on there... To leave off the toughest Dukie since Art Heyman makes it a joke.


Is this some kind of joke? Bilas is arguably the best color commentator out there. You are done with him simply because he didn't list anyone from Duke on a random list?

Really?

[wilko]

Jay is selling Jay right now... I can cut him some slack.
Duke can sell Duke just fine w/o him.

Maybe I am dreaming, but there may come a day when he decides to give up law and being a talking head and pick up a whistle again. After having his face in SO many living rooms for SO many years, he would have an air of celebrity and credibility to go with his many other gifts.

It would be a recruiting COUP of the highest magnitude to find him back on the bench someday.

[DukeAlumBS]

IMO over time I saw a decrease of Vitales rants during our games. I felt political at ESPN. I miss it. I disagree with your feelings about Jay Bilas, and even JW some have made a comment. Regarding JB, I met him at the Duke/Kentucky game at the MSG at an alumnae event. I saw him at the Marriott bar, and in comes my great fan Digger. This was the game we one in overtime, Elton Brand era. JB then, was a sincere alumnus, and very social at the pre game meal. I also saw him at the Duke / Texas alumnae event at the Meadowlands. When Reddick went on fire we won by 40 points. Duke 1 and Texas was 2 that year. I can sincerely say, he is an active Dukie and very social when he is at those games. I feel ESPN politics have pushed a button on the Duke praise. I also met my favorite Duke announcer. Digger Phelps. In one meeting, he is arrogant, and is jealous of what we have a Duke, a Legacy. There will never be another K. Not many coaches have the military background he brings to his coaching, and Duke. Again, IMO Jay is a true, active alum.

Nice day
Jimmy

[DukeAlumBS]

Vitale FUI picks MSU to win against us. Now that is so political to add to my comment above . ESPN maybe is tiring of what we have. We need another network for ourselves. Or winning out this year!!!
Have a nice day

[sagegrouse]

I like Jay and think that the criticism he receives here is mostly unmerited. But did anyone see the Charlotte Observer/N&O (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/03/30/2791399/espns-basketball-analyst-jay-bilas.html) article on Jay referenced in "tournament links" in the last week or so. Worth reading.

But, as the article indicates, there's a real loyalty test underway. His daughter Tori is applying to colleges and has been admitted to Duke, UNC, and Wake and is waiting to hear from Stanford. She had, as of last week, not made a decision. Now, we'll see....

sagegrouse
'Although when I went to college, I managed to reject everybody else's advice.'

[wncgrad]

I like Jay and think that the criticism he receives here is mostly unmerited. But did anyone see the Charlotte Observer/N&O (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/03/30/2791399/espns-basketball-analyst-jay-bilas.html) article on Jay referenced in "tournament links" in the last week or so. Worth reading.

But, as the article indicates, there's a real loyalty test underway. His daughter Tori is applying to colleges and has been admitted to Duke, UNC, and Wake and is waiting to hear from Stanford. She had, as of last week, not made a decision. Now, we'll see....

sagegrouse
'Although when I went to college, I managed to reject everybody else's advice.'

This is NOT a loyalty test. It is one young lady making a decision about where she wants to go to college. Everyone of the stated options is a very good school and it is up to her to decide where she wants to spend the next few years preparing for the rest of her life.

[ForkFondler]

This is NOT a loyalty test. It is one young lady making a decision about where she wants to go to college. Everyone of the stated options is a very good school and it is up to her to decide where she wants to spend the next few years preparing for the rest of her life.

Assuming moral equivalency, of course.

[_Gary]

This is NOT a loyalty test. It is one young lady making a decision about where she wants to go to college. Everyone of the stated options is a very good school and it is up to her to decide where she wants to spend the next few years preparing for the rest of her life.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that sagegrous was simply engaging in some good-natured joking.

[ForkFondler]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that sagegrouse was simply engaging in some good-natured joking.

Punchline candidates:

a) Wake
b) UNC
c) Stanford

[gep]

I pick... Stanford ;-)