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pfrduke
03-02-2013, 07:15 PM
Welcome back Ryan. And thank you.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 07:16 PM
Phew. Glad THAT'S over.

follyblue
03-02-2013, 07:16 PM
LOL. I don't know what to say about that other than welcome back Ryan.

CDu
03-02-2013, 07:17 PM
Whew! That almost sucked. Thank goodness we had just enough.

Any question who the player of the game was?

TKG
03-02-2013, 07:17 PM
LUCKY. LUCKY. LUCKY. But I'll take it.

ice-9
03-02-2013, 07:18 PM
Ryan Kelly!!

That's all.

OK, so that's not at all, but what more can be said about one of the best individual performances ever seen in Cameron?

The White Raven aside, we made adjustments in the second half on defense and that translated to a much better game until the last two minutes. We looked pretty good from the second half up to that point.

And then of course we did our best to lose, but thankfully we pulled it out.

UrinalCake
03-02-2013, 07:18 PM
After the last Miami game I remember thinking we couldn't blame the loss solely on not having Ryan, because its not like he would have single-handedly accounted for a 27-point differential. Boy was I wrong!

mapei
03-02-2013, 07:18 PM
I'm only disappointed that the Crazies didn't rush the court. ;)

1 24 90
03-02-2013, 07:19 PM
Apparently Ryan is worth at least 27 points. WOW

and why am I so emotional right now? tears of happiness I guess

Chris Randolph
03-02-2013, 07:19 PM
Wow. I gotta give Miami some credit, they are the real deal. Great win for Duke. Huge plays by Sheed in the final minutes, hopes that boost his confidence again. Gotta get better and be peaking in 2 weeks! Congrats

Furniture
03-02-2013, 07:19 PM
Lucky? I just don't get that. Great win by the boys!

Dukeface88
03-02-2013, 07:20 PM
I think this proves that Ryan's "injury" was actually just a cover story for his training under twelve bastketball masters at a monestary in Nepal (see also, Kyrie Irving's toe).

Impressive work by Pratt on the animotronic double.

CLW
03-02-2013, 07:20 PM
The WHITE RAVEN is back!

pfrduke
03-02-2013, 07:21 PM
That was a really fun game. Not the prettiest execution in the last 2 minutes, but a really fun game.

slower
03-02-2013, 07:21 PM
I'm only disappointed that the Crazies didn't rush the court. ;)

I wished they had rushed Broke Warren Sapp.

CDu
03-02-2013, 07:21 PM
Lucky? I just don't get that. Great win by the boys!

A bit lucky at the end (when we tried to give it away). But we earned the cushion that we had built - that was certainly not luck.

Big, big win. So happy. We needed this for our confidence. Now let's just close it out against VT and UNC and try to lock up that #1 seed in the tourney.

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 07:22 PM
Lucky? I just don't get that. Great win by the boys!

Lucky in the sense that when you have a 9 point lead or whatever with 1:30 left and somehow the other team has the ball with a chance to tie or take the lead. That is a pretty epic collapse.

But for the other 58:30, they played a solid game.

Les Grossman
03-02-2013, 07:24 PM
That was a legendary performance by Ryan Kelly

wtm001
03-02-2013, 07:24 PM
4-0 against top 5 teams

ForkFondler
03-02-2013, 07:24 PM
Ryan is key, no doubt. Need a few more games to get in synch, but to hell with parity.

Luther
03-02-2013, 07:24 PM
My Nike performance shirt that has been a part the 2010 natty and two acc tournament wins comes through again! Your the man Ryan!

slower
03-02-2013, 07:27 PM
Ryan is key, no doubt. Need a few more games to get in synch, but to hell with parity.

If you're implying that this game raised Duke a level above the other contenders, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

A great, legendary individual performance that just barely offset the sub-par performances of others.

I don't know what is going on with Mason, but NBA execs have to be revising their draft charts.

burnspbesq
03-02-2013, 07:29 PM
That, ladies and gents, is ACC basketball.

crdaul
03-02-2013, 07:30 PM
Larkin clearly stepped on the baseline when he scored and then got fouled.....game should not have been that close, but, seeing Larkin look as he did at the end made it all the sweeter!

Luther
03-02-2013, 07:31 PM
Isn't it funny how dicky v changes his mind in Matter of minutes.....

mr. synellinden
03-02-2013, 07:33 PM
That was a legendary performance by Ryan Kelly

Yes, legendary is correct.

Who saw what he said after he hit his first three? He looked to the bench and yelled:

I STILL GOT IT!

HateCarolina
03-02-2013, 07:33 PM
If you're implying that this game raised Duke a level above the other contenders, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

A great, legendary individual performance that just barely offset the sub-par performances of others.

I wouldn't imply "the game" put as above the other contenders, but with Kelly we've now beat four top five teams. I'm much more confident about our Devils right now and in a way I think an ending like this probably served us well. Keeps us grounded and focused, but with Kelly back all you can say is WOW!!

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 07:33 PM
I was actually thinking during the game how bad I was going to feel for Ryan that we gave the game away on the defensive end after the game he played. I am just glad we held on by a thread to win so it didn't go to waste.
Welcome back RK!

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 07:35 PM
Isn't it funny how dicky v changes his mind in Matter of minutes.....

He has no mind, lost it years ago....

InSpades
03-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Great game. Miami is a really tough team and they played really well.

Ryan Kelly played perhaps the best game I've seen since... I don't even know. JJ against Texas? But JJ wasn't coming off an 8 week hiatus.

Wish we had taken care of things a bit better down the end... that could haunt us at some point.

I'm a bit curious that Amile just got buried to the bench. I thought he had outplayed Hairston pretty consistently since Kelly's injury.

Also curious about the inbounds strategy at the end of the game. Putting Mason in the backcourt when you have 4 good foul shooters including Kelly who can inbound the ball.

Rasheed struggled mightily but those 5 points in a row were the difference in the game. Great perserverence by him.

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 07:36 PM
I wouldn't imply "the game" put as above the other contenders, but with Kelly we've now beat four top five teams. I'm much more confident about our Devils right now and in a way I think an ending like this probably served us well. Keeps us grounded and focused, but with Kelly back all you can say is WOW!!

Guess it depends what you consider a top 5 team. By next week, we'll actually have 0 current top 5 wins. Sure, that is a bit unfair since Miami will drop since we beat them but still considering UK a top 5 win is ridiculous.

This game pretty much implies what we all thought, with Kelly we are national contenders. Still going to take a lot of good play and luck to win it all but I think this will alleviate any concern of a Duke/Lehigh issue and makes the chances of getting a #1 much better.

DukieInBrasil
03-02-2013, 07:37 PM
RYAN'S BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCKKKKKKKK!!!!!! What a magnificent game! The shooting was phenomenal, but he also led the team in rebounds. With 2 steals a block and an assist, production all around.
Quinn was pretty solid too, cept that foot on the line at the end.
Mason ended up with solid staff-stuffer numbers, but was not much of a force on the boards.

Our game management was out-of-this-world-ly bad at the end there, Quinn's foot, Plumlee's pass, missing FTs, plus giving up an O-board on that last possession were just all horrible.

TKG
03-02-2013, 07:37 PM
4-0 against top 5 teams

Great stat.

hillsborodevil
03-02-2013, 07:38 PM
Go to Hell Carolina.........and Miami

After this game UNC fans have got to be scared for next weekend. The White Raven is back with vengeance.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-02-2013, 07:38 PM
If you're implying that this game raised Duke a level above the other contenders, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

A great, legendary individual performance that just barely offset the sub-par performances of others.

But this is precisely why Kelly does raise Duke to another level, because on a night when Curry, Mason, and Sheed are sub-par, Kelly steps up. Without him there, of course Duke loses. He completes the starting lineup so that all 5 positions must be accounted for. It's no longer 4 on 5 for the opposing teams' defense.

How often will Kelly score 36? Probably not very often. How often will Curry, Mason, and Sulaimon all have off-nights? Again, probably not often.

This dynamic reminds of the "Big 3" of 2010 when if Duke had just 2 out of Singler, Scheyer, and Smith playing well, Duke won. Now we have a "Solid 5".

March is looking bright to me!

slower
03-02-2013, 07:43 PM
Without him there, of course Duke loses.

Without him there, Duke gets humiliated again.

So, thank God he's back. Let's just hope he stays healthy. Hopefully, he'll inspire the other guys - his return will certainly inspire a spike in group confidence.

But let's not EVER put Mason in that end-of-game spot again. Please.

Gthoma2a
03-02-2013, 07:43 PM
Dickie V got Warren Sapp into the game? Also, Doris sounded a little hurt about doing the interview with Ryan.

Ryan was outstanding and makes us a different team. I am so glad he is back. I fear no teams at this point.

g-money
03-02-2013, 07:43 PM
I normally refrain from making player comparisons, but tonight Ryan Kelly was clearly reminiscent of one Larry Bird: They're both ugly, they're both unathletic, and yet they both have the shooting stroke and savvy to dominate a game. I read some baseless rumor that Kelly was afraid of hurting his draft stock by coming back; tonight, he clearly did the opposite.

To be honest, the rest of the team looked tired. I don't think it's physical fatigue, but it could well be mental fatigue. We're 29 games into the season, and with the way teams get up for Duke, it's gotta be wearing the guys down a bit. I wish Mason, Seth, QC, and Rasheed could take a 13-game sabbatical like Kelly.

Here's to finishing up the season Strong.

PS I LOVED the QC floor slap. I don't care if we almost blew the game after that. The point is that you don't embarrass DUKE and live to tell about it. (See WVa vs Duke, 2010 NCAA tournament)

Philadukie
03-02-2013, 07:44 PM
I am convinced that we just beat one of the best teams in college right now.

Miami is freakin good. They are going to make a run in the tourney.

We finally started to stop the penetration around the 10 minute mark of the second half, which made a huge difference and gave us our extended lead.

Cook made some tough plays in the 2nd half after a bad 1st half. Rasheed made two great scoring plays in spite everything else that went wrong for him. Tough kid.

Two subpar games for Curry against Miami. I think it's just a bad match up for him (although he did have three shots just barely rim out).

Despite a bad game in many ways, Mason actually had some really nice post moves/buckets in the second half.

We should have a nice/fun win on Senior Night with good momentum going into the UNC game.

Duke76
03-02-2013, 07:46 PM
But this is precisely why Kelly does raise Duke to another level, because on a night when Curry, Mason, and Sheed are sub-par, Kelly steps up. Without him there, of course Duke loses. He completes the starting lineup so that all 5 positions must be accounted for. It's no longer 4 on 5 for the opposing teams' defense.

How often will Kelly score 36? Probably not very often. How often will Curry, Mason, and Sulaimon all have off-nights? Again, probably not often.

This dynamic reminds of the "Big 3" of 2010 when if Duke had just 2 out of Singler, Scheyer, and Smith playing well, Duke won. Now we have a "Solid 5".

March is looking bright to me!

Coach K said Kelly's performance was "one for the ages"

UrinalCake
03-02-2013, 07:46 PM
Rasheed struggled mightily but those 5 points in a row were the difference in the game. Great perserverence by him.

Also made a great defensive play right after those points that forced a missed shot. Then Quinn hit a three that I thought put the game away, but not quite.

Weird how our free throw shooting goes from 90% (18-20) on the road at UVA to 62% (16-26) at home tonight. Knocking down a few more at the end would have helped me breath a little easier (or at all)

diveonthefloor
03-02-2013, 07:46 PM
I honestly think that Miami is the best team we have played this year. Terrific execution, great point guard, outstanding rebounding, superb defense. When they are focused, it will be hard for anyone to beat them on a neutral court.

Duke played a gutty game tonight. One might think that Ryan's return to the lineup would lead to a struggling, limited performance by Ryan. Amazingly, it was the rest of the team that seemed to struggle as Duke reverted to it's high-low offense which had worked earlier in the year. Hopefully a few days of normal rest and normal practice will fine tune the rest of the team.

Duke76
03-02-2013, 07:49 PM
Coach K said Kelly's performance was "one for the ages"

on espn news practice very little...K doesn't know how the reporters are going to write about it...
said his SAT verbal not very high so he can't put in words


didn't really practice until thursday...Kelly told him said he really felt confident K going on and on,
shocking to K what happened "God bless America"

slower
03-02-2013, 07:49 PM
Amazingly, it was the rest of the team that seemed to struggle as Duke reverted to it's high-low offense which had worked earlier in the year. Hopefully a few days of normal rest and normal practice will fine tune the rest of the team.

That's a great point. Thanks - I feel better about future prospects now.

Billy Dat
03-02-2013, 07:51 PM
What Ryan Kelly did tonight, after being out for 2 months, is right up there with the most incredible performances I have ever seen from a Duke player.

Cue Jack Buck (thanks, diveonthefloor), I can't believe what I just saw.

Speechless.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 07:52 PM
Also made a great defensive play right after those points that forced a missed shot. Then Quinn hit a three that I thought put the game away, but not quite.

Weird how our free throw shooting goes from 90% (18-20) on the road at UVA to 62% (16-26) at home tonight. Knocking down a few more at the end would have helped me breath a little easier (or at all)

Not that weird - tired legs can do that to a team.

Just glad they had enough left in the tank to pull this one out!

Ggallagher
03-02-2013, 07:52 PM
I'm really looking forward to the Duke Blue Planet "Plays of the Game" video. It's bound to be an amazing Ryan Kelly tribute.
Go DUKE!

slower
03-02-2013, 07:54 PM
I'm really looking forward to the Duke Blue Planet "Plays of the Game" video. It's bound to be an amazing Ryan Kelly tribute.
Go DUKE!

They'd BETTER have Marshall doing the interview. :D

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 07:56 PM
I honestly think that Miami is the best team we have played this year. Terrific execution, great point guard, outstanding rebounding, superb defense. When they are focused, it will be hard for anyone to beat them on a neutral court.

I agree although they didn't particularly play a great game. They couldn't hit anything from the outside and still kept it a close game, sign of a good team. They probably won't face a defense that bad late in the tournament but Miami is a very good team. And if point guards really do carry you, they will go far.

UrinalCake
03-02-2013, 07:56 PM
Go to Hell Carolina.........and Miami

After this game UNC fans have got to be scared for next weekend. The White Raven is back with vengeance.

Yeah, they've been playing this small lineup since their first game against us, and it's worked well for them, but with upcoming games against us and Maryland (who have even more interior size than us with Kelly), they might need to rethink that

Atldukie79
03-02-2013, 07:57 PM
The dominant theme is that Kelly is back...in a remarkable game...perhaps an unprecedented performance. Duke is back in the NCAA championship hunt as a result.

A lesser theme is that we moved toward solidifying a 2 seed in the ACC tourney.

I thought the floor spal with a 10 point lead demonstrated that the team thought the game was won. Their play for much of the end game reflected that emotion. I liked the slap...would have preferred it when the game was locked.

Duke of Nashville
03-02-2013, 07:57 PM
Impressed with the way we handled those high ball screens.

The White Raven Soars!

JD79
03-02-2013, 07:57 PM
I said it before and got criticized. Leadership is key to the success of this team. Kelly said "Give me the ball and watch how it should be done". He showed senior leadership that was sorely needed. Hope he didn't hurt himself tonight and that he can keep the focus of this team in a positive manner. Boxing out for rebounds continues to be a challenge for this team. Learn and grow!

NashvilleDevil
03-02-2013, 07:58 PM
In the words of James Woods at the end of Diggstown:

"Ryan...what you did tonight...couldn't be done."

UrinalCake
03-02-2013, 07:58 PM
[Kelly] didn't really practice until thursday

Since Seth and Kelly are arguably our two best players right now, and neither is practicing fully, maybe the whole team should just not practice! Imagine how unstoppable we'd be!

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 08:00 PM
Since Seth and Kelly are arguably our two best players right now, and neither is practicing fully, maybe the whole team should just not practice! Imagine how unstoppable we'd be!

Definitely would put the tired legs debate to "rest."

diveonthefloor
03-02-2013, 08:00 PM
What Ryan Kelly did tonight, after being out for 2 months, is right up there with the most incredible performances I have ever seen from a Duke player.

Cue Vin Sculley, I can't believe what I just saw.

Speechless.

If you're referring to the Kirk Gibson game winning homer in game 1 of the World Series, I think that quote is attributable to Jack Buck who did the national radio broadcast.

stillcrazie
03-02-2013, 08:02 PM
If you're referring to the Kirk Gibson game winning homer in game 1 of the World Series, I think that quote is attributable to Jack Buck who did the national radio broadcast.

I was just about to post that it was Jack Buck, former St. Louis Cardinals announcer. Thanks.

Troublemaker
03-02-2013, 08:02 PM
What a treat to watch that game. Great college game punctuated by one of the outstanding performances in Duke history.

I was impressed by Miami's effort. They could've just counted on winning one of their two easy remaining games to wrap the title, but they are tough, true competitors.

Larkin and Scott are just really poor matchups for Cook and Curry. Especially the Scott/Curry matchup. Scott drives him at will and then locks him up on the other end. Seth is the better player overall because he plays better against other teams, but head-to-head, he loses.

Overall, hard not to be ecstatic about what came out of this game. We now know with a fairly good deal of certainty that re-integrating Ryan won't be a huge deal, and he's not going to have too much rust to knock off. That was a huge question going into the game, and it was answered quite emphatically by the White Raven.

roywhite
03-02-2013, 08:02 PM
What Ryan Kelly did tonight, after being out for 2 months, is right up there with the most incredible performances I have ever seen from a Duke player.

Cue Vin Sculley, I can't believe what I just saw.

Speechless.

Yeah, I agree.

Going back a long way, there was Freddy Lind off the bench in a 3-OT win over UNC; Gary Melchionni going for 39 vs Maryland; JJ Redick had more than one amazing game; Christian Laettner vs KY in the Eastern Regionals final obviously.

But add in coming back from injury and inactivity....just WOW.

jipops
03-02-2013, 08:04 PM
It must be acknowledged that this team fought through obvious fatigue in the 2nd half to actually bare down on defense and produce stops. Larkin and Scott were not getting into the lane on drives with the frequency of the 1st half. Mason stepped it up big time on the defensive end, give the kid a ton of credit there.

I am truly impressed at how this team performed against one of the best teams in the country and with such a quick turnaround.

Fatigue was most definitely a factor in the sloppy ending. But we did build the cushion.

Thank you Kelly!

Troublemaker
03-02-2013, 08:05 PM
If you're referring to the Kirk Gibson game winning homer in game 1 of the World Series, I think that quote is attributable to Jack Buck who did the national radio broadcast.

Correct. Although Scully had a memorable call of that home run as well: "In a year that has been so improbable... the impossible has happened!"

arnie
03-02-2013, 08:11 PM
It must be acknowledged that this team fought through obvious fatigue in the 2nd half to actually bare down on defense and produce stops. Larkin and Scott were not getting into the lane on drives with the frequency of the 1st half. Mason stepped it up big time on the defensive end, give the kid a ton of credit there.

I am truly impressed at how this team performed against one of the best teams in the country and with such a quick turnaround.

Fatigue was most definitely a factor in the sloppy ending. But we did build the cushion.

Thank you Kelly!

And I love the confidence by Sheed at end. He knew he could take the bigger kid. Ryan was OK I guess.

Billy Dat
03-02-2013, 08:13 PM
What a treat to watch that game. Great college game punctuated by one of the outstanding performances in Duke history.

I was impressed by Miami's effort. They could've just counted on winning one of their two easy remaining games to wrap the title, but they are tough, true competitors.

Larkin and Scott are just really poor matchups for Cook and Curry. Especially the Scott/Curry matchup. Scott drives him at will and then locks him up on the other end. Seth is the better player overall because he plays better against other teams, but head-to-head, he loses.

Overall, hard not to be ecstatic about what came out of this game. We now know with a fairly good deal of certainty that re-integrating Ryan won't be a huge deal, and he's not going to have too much rust to knock off. That was a huge question going into the game, and it was answered quite emphatically by the White Raven.

I think these thoughts are right on the money. There were a lot of negatives to pick at if that's the prism you want to look through, I thought it was one of those magical nights, with a historic performance at its center, that washes away the miscues. Bottom line, aside from Ryan, Cook and Sheed made huge plays down the stretch when we needed them. Larkin was insane, and Kadji was too for a while.

A big play, in retrospect, was that drive early in the second half when Ryan buried his shoulder, threw it up, grabbed the rebound, and got fouled. That was Ryan basically saying that he was going to carry us no matter what - and boy did he - he also led us in rebounding.

It's going to be a fun run the rest of the way.

Chard
03-02-2013, 08:13 PM
Ryan Kelly go boom!

Great game between two of the best teams out there.

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 08:17 PM
And I love the confidence by Sheed at end. He knew he could take the bigger kid.

The best part about Sheed was the way the teammates reacted to the steal and lay up. They've obviously seen similar things to what we saw and I'm sure he has been getting talked to by the coaches. You could tell they knew what that would do for his confidence and the fact that our kids realize that is kudos for them.

And I know in the new game we are used to freshman coming in and dominating but if Sheed and Cook are 4 year players, the next few years are going to be fun to watch.

NashvilleDevil
03-02-2013, 08:18 PM
I also hope Digger Phelps continues to say Duke has no chance of winning games.

jwillfan
03-02-2013, 08:19 PM
Jaw-dropping performance by Ryan. As K said, hard to put into words. I feel kinda sorry for Amile and Alex though - unless either of them steps up big time or we're in a blowout, they are riding the pine.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 08:21 PM
Jaw-dropping performance by Ryan. As K said, hard to put into words. I feel kinda sorry for Amile and Alex though - unless either of them steps up big time or we're in a blowout, they are riding the pine.

Or if Tyler and Hairston get into foul trouble, which is a very real possibility.

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 08:21 PM
A big play, in retrospect, was that drive early in the second half when Ryan buried his shoulder, threw it up, grabbed the rebound, and got fouled. That was Ryan basically saying that he was going to carry us no matter what - and boy did he - he also led us in rebounding.

That was probably the biggest play of the game. We were down 3 on a mini 5-0 run by Miami. Their offense looked to be getting into gear and our offense was sputtering a bit with 2 missed 3's by Sheed. While the score didn't show it, it seemed like the game was getting away from us. Kelly takes a bad shot, but proceeds to get the rebound and put 2 points on the board. That cued a nice 7-0 run which included another 3 by Kelly and Mason with a post up and a block and Duke never trailed again.

roywhite
03-02-2013, 08:24 PM
Duke 79 -- Miami 76 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=206580367)


Big edge for Miami on the boards, 40 to 27
Duke was 11-23 from 3-pt, with Ryan obviously, and Quinn Cook hit 3 big ones
Amile and Murphy did not play
Rasheed had very little to show on the stat sheet, but then made some huge plays late

Oh, and by the way, Ryan Kelly played 32 minutes and had 36 points.

sporthenry
03-02-2013, 08:25 PM
Jaw-dropping performance by Ryan. As K said, hard to put into words. I feel kinda sorry for Amile and Alex though - unless either of them steps up big time or we're in a blowout, they are riding the pine.

Amile had chances and while he had some bright spots, he also wasn't great. Alex is a more interesting case but I trust K in his judgment.

Remember Mason and Dre as a freshman, or Cook last year or even Nolan. They played a bit more than Amile and Alex but this is also a top 5 team. If they continue to work, they should be huge going forward.

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 08:26 PM
Jaw-dropping performance by Ryan. As K said, hard to put into words. I feel kinda sorry for Amile and Alex though - unless either of them steps up big time or we're in a blowout, they are riding the pine.

Sorry? They played a lot this year because Kelly was out. Now that he is back they will be used less. That is how it goes. They were given a great opportunity to contribute. I am sure we will see them in the ACC tourney when there are multiple games in a row?

vick
03-02-2013, 08:30 PM
Amile had chances and while he had some bright spots, he also wasn't great. Alex is a more interesting case but I trust K in his judgment.

Remember Mason and Dre as a freshman, or Cook last year or even Nolan. They played a bit more than Amile and Alex but this is also a top 5 team. If they continue to work, they should be huge going forward.

I'd look at Ryan as a freshman, who played 227 minutes for the season, barely more than Alex (186 to date) and much less than Amile (378).

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 08:32 PM
It must be acknowledged that this team fought through obvious fatigue in the 2nd half to actually bare down on defense and produce stops. Larkin and Scott were not getting into the lane on drives with the frequency of the 1st half. Mason stepped it up big time on the defensive end, give the kid a ton of credit there.

I am truly impressed at how this team performed against one of the best teams in the country and with such a quick turnaround.

Fatigue was most definitely a factor in the sloppy ending. But we did build the cushion.

Thank you Kelly!

This is how you gut out a win. Duke has the pieces to handle the end of games but tonight too many mistakes made it closer than it needed to be. Miami is very good- have a number of Pros and can really shut down Curry. Duke does not match up well with them but can outshoot them . We may get a third game.

Greg_Newton
03-02-2013, 08:38 PM
Speechless. Best game I've seen in Cameron in a few years, and the best performance I've ever seen there, all things considered.

One of those games/performances that you just know is going to go down as one of the great ones, even as it's happening.

InSpades
03-02-2013, 08:39 PM
For those who are terrible at lip reading (because I got it and I'm certainly not very good)... after Ryan hit his 1st 3 they showed a close-up (in a replay) of him running back for defense as he yelled to the bench "I still got it... I still got it...". Yes Ryan, you still have it.

miramar
03-02-2013, 08:44 PM
I'm really looking forward to the Duke Blue Planet "Plays of the Game" video. It's bound to be an amazing Ryan Kelly tribute.
Go DUKE!

It's already up on goduke.com and it's practically a Ryan Kelly highlight video. Great stuff, not to mention that it's always great to hear Bob Harris's voice again.

BlueandWhite
03-02-2013, 08:47 PM
Jaw-dropping performance by Ryan. As K said, hard to put into words. I feel kinda sorry for Amile and Alex though - unless either of them steps up big time or we're in a blowout, they are riding the pine..

Really, there aren't that many significant minutes left for Amile or Alex now that Ryan's back. Why feel sorry for them b/c of less PT now? It's a team game. Both played significantly more this year than if Ryan hadn't hurt his foot...and helped Duke a lot.

They and the rest of their teammates are no doubt happy to see that Ryan can play a few more games in a Duke uniform, and help get the entire team to a higher level -- hopefully Duke will have 11 more games to play this year!

6th Man
03-02-2013, 08:48 PM
I have watched Duke since the early 80's. That was definitely one of the greatest individual games in Duke history or at least since I have been watching. Congratulations Ryan Kelly!

roywhite
03-02-2013, 08:48 PM
Speechless. Best game I've seen in Cameron in a few years, and the best performance I've ever seen there, all things considered.

One of those games/performances that you just know is going to go down as one of the great ones, even as it's happening.

Honestly, when Ryan had 20 at half, I fully expected he would run out of gas, or just not hit his shots in the second half.
And then he goes for 16 more in the second half!

Epic.

magjayran
03-02-2013, 08:50 PM
I told my mom during the first half that other guys were gonna have to step up because there was no way Ryan was going to go for 30 and carry the team. Man oh man. That was the stuff legends are made of. Incredible game by an incredible player.

wilko
03-02-2013, 08:52 PM
Kelly is still hurt. THAT was Kyrie Irving wearing a Ryan Kelly suit.

ChrisP
03-02-2013, 09:00 PM
Obviously, a magnificent game by RK. Just...wow!

Also, I'm really, REALLY glad his teammates didn't blow it for him tonight with a number of just plain boneheaded plays near the end. I will chalk said plays and the poor FT shooting to mental fatigue.

As others have said, it was also great to see Rasheed step it up with several really key plays down the stretch after having a sub-par game most of the night. One thing I have noticed is that on his outside shot, he's just not positioning his body well (hence all the bricks). I noticed it in the UVA game too. It's almost like he's like leaning backwards or something rather than jumping straight up and shooting with confidence. Not exactly a fade away type shot, but...almost. It's just weird and I would bet that watching some tape and a little practice time would help straighten out what looks to be mainly a mechanical flaw. Of course, I think confidence is a factor as well (he's 0-8 from beyond the arc the past two games). Anyway, like I said, I was glad to see him see the ball go through the basket and that steal and score on the break with the bigger defender draped all over him was a MAN's play! I hope he's got some more confidence now, heading into the next game with VT as a result of the way he finished tonight.

NovaScotian
03-02-2013, 09:09 PM
this game will forever be known as "r. kelly - back from the closet."

juise
03-02-2013, 09:12 PM
this game will forever be known as "r. kelly - back from the closet."

When I saw at Duke, some guys made a music video to R. Kelly's "Ignition" that went viral. I'd say Ryan ignited tonight... if we're going with an R. Kelly theme.

tendev
03-02-2013, 09:16 PM
Someone please explain why we are getting crushed on the boards. Part of it seems to be because Mason runs out to cut off the guards and then is out of position on the glass but Zoubek and Miles used to do the same and neither had trouble grabbing rebounds. And Josh, at his size needs to get some more rebounds. I don't see us beating really good teams on a neutral court unless we rebound better. You can't give a good team that many chances to score in a game.

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 09:19 PM
Obviously it's going to take some time for Ryan to work himself into game shape. Hopefully, he'll be re-integrated into the team by the time the NCAAT begins.

;) ;) ;) ;)


Two subpar games for Curry against Miami. I think it's just a bad match up for him (although he did have three shots just barely rim out).

I agree that Scott is just a bad matchup for Seth. He's four or five inches taller, 20 pounds heavier, and a fair amount quicker as well. Considering everything, I thought Seth did OK.


Then Quinn hit a three that I thought put the game away, but not quite.

Well, it did put the game away, since we won by three points...

dyedwab
03-02-2013, 09:21 PM
Someone please explain why we are getting crushed on the boards. Part of it seems to be because Mason runs out to cut off the guards and then is out of position on the glass but Zoubek and Miles used to do the same and neither had trouble grabbing rebounds. And Josh, at his size needs to get some more rebounds. I don't see us beating really good teams on a neutral court unless we rebound better. You can't give a good team that many chances to score in a game.

We've beaten 5 really good teams on neutral floors.....

Ggallagher
03-02-2013, 09:24 PM
It's already up on goduke.com and it's practically a Ryan Kelly highlight video. Great stuff, not to mention that it's always great to hear Bob Harris's voice again.

And in addition to hearing Harris, it's cool to see Zoubek in the stands cheering on Ryan's performance.

78Devil
03-02-2013, 09:25 PM
Going back to a prior post, can someone help me understand why we are such a bad rebounding team? The differential is SOOO extreme, that I am just puzzled, as I am obviously not enough of a technical expert to understand.

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 09:29 PM
Someone please explain why we are getting crushed on the boards. Part of it seems to be because Mason runs out to cut off the guards and then is out of position on the glass but Zoubek and Miles used to do the same and neither had trouble grabbing rebounds.

Are you saying neither Z nor Miles "had trouble grabbing rebounds" but Mason does? That makes no sense. Mason averages more than 10 rebounds a game, significantly more than either of Z or Miles in their best seasons.

But to answer your question, part of why we get "crushed on the boards" is because of the style of defense we play. Another big part is our guards were outsized and outrebounded. Miami's backcourt got 17 rebounds against our backcourt's 11, and that was with both Seth and Quinn having above-average (for them) rebounding performances. And also, sometimes we don't box out as well as we could. I wish we kept other teams off the offensive boards a little better, but I don't view it as the crisis that you seem to see.


I don't see us beating really good teams on a neutral court unless we rebound better.

Yeah, if only we'd been able to beat some really good teams on neutral courts this season. Oh, wait...

tendev
03-02-2013, 09:36 PM
We've beaten 5 really good teams on neutral floors.....


We beat three good teams in the Bahamas on a neutral court in November. Kentucky is not really good. And who is the 5th? And Louisville was without one of their best players. In any event, what was the rebounding differential in those games?

Granted, we did not have Kelly but we have not beaten a good team, much less a really good team, on their court or a neutral court in January, February or March.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 09:36 PM
That Kelly kid's gonna turn out to be ok...

tendev
03-02-2013, 09:40 PM
Are you saying neither Z nor Miles "had trouble grabbing rebounds" but Mason does? That makes no sense. Mason averages more than 10 rebounds a game, significantly more than either of Z or Miles in their best seasons.

But to answer your question, part of why we get "crushed on the boards" is because of the style of defense we play. Another big part is our guards were outsized and outrebounded. Miami's backcourt got 17 rebounds against our backcourt's 11, and that was with both Seth and Quinn having above-average (for them) rebounding performances. And also, sometimes we don't box out as well as we could. I wish we kept other teams off the offensive boards a little better, but I don't view it as the crisis that you seem to see.



Yeah, if only we'd been able to beat some really good teams on neutral courts this season. Oh, wait...

In November .... we did.

Did I say Mason was the problem? We have a team rebounding problem. If you think this team can make the Elite 8, much less the Final Four, and lose the rebounding battle by double digits, I think your glasses are too dark blue.

Dukeblue91
03-02-2013, 09:42 PM
All I can say is what a game and what a performance by Ryan Kelly WoW.
In my wildest dreams wouldn't I have seen this one coming.

Maybe now Mason can start playing defense again or at least pretend to, minus those 2 blocks as they were great.
Anyway I will remember this game for the rest of my life.
Kudos to Miami as they are that good and I hope we don't have to play them again this season.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 09:43 PM
We beat three good teams in the Bahamas on a neutral court in November. Kentucky is not really good. And who is the 5th? And Louisville was without one of their best players. In any event, what was the rebounding differential in those games?

Granted, we did not have Kelly but we have not beaten a good team, much less a really good team, on their court or a neutral court in January, February or March.

Where to begin?

First of all, google should be able to answer your rebounding question. But if you don't feel like it...

- we beat Minnesota and got outrebounded by 2
- we beat VCU and got outrebounded by 6
- we beat UL and got outrebounded by 6
- we beat Ohio st and got outrebounded by 1
- we beat Temple and outrebounded them by 1

So, yes, it is possible to play good teams at neutral sites, get outrebounded and still win.

And how do you discount our Louisville win because they were without Dieng but then don't give the same credit for us not having Kelly, who I'd argue is better and more important than Dieng?

jipops
03-02-2013, 09:44 PM
In November .... we did.

Did I say Mason was the problem? We have a team rebounding problem. If you think this team can make the Elite 8, much less the Final Four, and lose the rebounding battle by double digits, I think your glasses are too dark blue.

We had two championship teams in the early 90's that were routinely beat up on the boards.

gofurman
03-02-2013, 09:44 PM
I was actually thinking during the game how bad I was going to feel for Ryan that we gave the game away on the defensive end after the game he played. I am just glad we held on by a thread to win so it didn't go to waste.
Welcome back RK!

THIS post above. Great win but dang, can we please play some defense. Put it this way - we were at HOME, almost hit half of our 3 pt shots (cant count on that !) and BARELY won. I mean barely. Have to get some stops. Heres a simple numeric - vegas had the total at 137, the real total ? 155. Not the defense that wins titles. I am sure K is ecstatic with Kelly's performance but I hope he hammers the guys on the importance of D. They got 64 shots to our 50. Thus our high 3 pt percentage and yet a very close win.

Great win, but Please block out guys. We will need it in the next weeks...

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 09:45 PM
We beat three good teams in the Bahamas on a neutral court in November. Kentucky is not really good. And who is the 5th? And Louisville was without one of their best players. In any event, what was the rebounding differential in those games?

Granted, we did not have Kelly but we have not beaten a good team, much less a really good team, on their court or a neutral court in January, February or March.

What really good teams has Duke or any ACC team played in January, February or March? Has Miami beat a really good team this year (2013)? I am not sure I understand the point. But if you consider Miami a good team- then Duke beat them in March.

mike88
03-02-2013, 09:46 PM
Are you saying neither Z nor Miles "had trouble grabbing rebounds" but Mason does? That makes no sense. Mason averages more than 10 rebounds a game, significantly more than either of Z or Miles in their best seasons.

But to answer your question, part of why we get "crushed on the boards" is because of the style of defense we play. Another big part is our guards were outsized and outrebounded. Miami's backcourt got 17 rebounds against our backcourt's 11, and that was with both Seth and Quinn having above-average (for them) rebounding performances. And also, sometimes we don't box out as well as we could. I wish we kept other teams off the offensive boards a little better, but I don't view it as the crisis that you seem to see.



Yeah, if only we'd been able to beat some really good teams on neutral courts this season. Oh, wait...

I agree our 3 guard line-up is part of the issue but to my eye Mason has been less aggressive in the past couple of games - he is usually good about going up and contesting rebounds but he seems to be hesitant to go after 50-50 balls. Having Ryan back helps some but Mason needs to focus on owning the defensive boards.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 09:47 PM
What really good teams has Duke or any ACC team played in January, February or March? Has Miami beat a really good team this year (2013)? I am not sure I understand the point. But if you consider Miami a good team- then Duke beat them in March.

And they got outrebounded.

Would I like to see us hit the boards more? Yes. Do I think it's as big of a deal as most do? Nope.

Defense is a bigger issue IMO.

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 09:50 PM
We beat three good teams in the Bahamas on a neutral court in November. Kentucky is not really good. And who is the 5th? And Louisville was without one of their best players. In any event, what was the rebounding differential in those games?

Granted, we did not have Kelly but we have not beaten a good team, much less a really good team, on their court or a neutral court in January, February or March.

We got outrebounded in every one of those games. Plus a lot of other games that we won. We haven't played on any neutral courts in January, February or March. Road games are a completely different animal, and I think we did pretty well overall without one of our top players over the past two months. Also, Davidson is not a "really good team," but I'd call them a "good team" and we played them in January in what was technically a home game for them (but was really semi-home or almost neutral) and we did beat them, by 17. And they outrebounded us.

So what was your point again?


Did I say Mason was the problem?

What you said was, and I quote, "Part of it seems to be because Mason runs out to cut off the guards and then is out of position on the glass but Zoubek and Miles used to do the same and neither had trouble grabbing rebounds." Since you named Mason, Z and Miles, it didn't sound like you were talking about a team problem. It seemed like you were implying Z and Miles rebounded better than Mason, which is clearly untrue, especially on the defensive end (which after all is what we're really talking about).


If you think this team can make the Elite 8, much less the Final Four, and lose the rebounding battle by double digits, I think your glasses are too dark blue.

What I think is (a) we've done pretty well so far, especially in games where Ryan has played; (b) rebounding is one of the four factors, but there are three others that if we do really well we can mitigate a rebounding deficit; and (c) it does absolutely no good and makes absolutely no sense to say things like "unless we improve [insert rebounding or whatever else you want] we have no chance of getting past the Sweet 16," because (i) none of us have any idea whether your statement is true or not so why be so negative and absolute; (ii) there are so many factors that go into how far we'll go in the NCAAT that pinning everything on one issue is silly; and (iii) there's nothing any of us can do about it and you're not suggesting anything constructive. You're not even inviting debate, you're just making inflammatory statements.

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 09:53 PM
And they got outrebounded.

Would I like to see us hit the boards more? Yes. Do I think it's as big of a deal as most do? Nope.

Defense is a bigger issue IMO.

I agree. Need to stop the easy buckets. Kelly will help a little there. But our guards are too small and not great leapers- hence, Duke will have its hand full rebounding the ball. But they can out-shoot many teams. You have to win the way you can.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 09:56 PM
I agree. Need to stop the easy buckets. Kelly will help a little there. But our guards are too small and not great leapers- hence, Duke will have its hand full rebounding the ball. But they can out-shoot many teams. You have to win the way you can.

To be fair, some easy buckets come from offensive rebounds. My biggest beef with the rebounding is the lack of effort on some of the loose balls...

pamtar
03-02-2013, 09:56 PM
The people here arguing about this and that sure know how to ruin a good time...

tendev
03-02-2013, 09:57 PM
Where to begin?

First of all, google should be able to answer your rebounding question. But if you don't feel like it...

- we beat Minnesota and got outrebounded by 2
- we beat VCU and got outrebounded by 6
- we beat UL and got outrebounded by 6
- we beat Ohio st and got outrebounded by 1
- we beat Temple and outrebounded them by 1

So, yes, it is possible to play good teams at neutral sites, get outrebounded and still win.

And how do you discount our Louisville win because they were without Dieng but then don't give the same credit for us not having Kelly, who I'd argue is better and more important than Dieng?

None of those is double digits. Today, at home, we got crushed on the boards by double digits and as a result Miami got off 16 more shots. Miami is large to be sure but against UVa we got beat by double digits on the boards. I was commenting on the recent rebounding problems where the last two games we have been out-rebounded by double digits. Ryan will make a difference but we need to keep the margin smaller.

cptnflash
03-02-2013, 09:59 PM
I see no one is taking my advice to heart... but I'm going to repeat it anyway. Ignore this game. It's special, and I believe it has no bearing on what will happen in the ACC/NCAA tournaments. Just file it away as a great win, and a triumphant return for a previously underappreciated player (hopefully we've fixed that, at least).

The next game won't mean much either - we're playing at home against an overmatched opponent, on senior night. Unless our seniors get too wrapped up in the emotion of their final home game at Cameron, I expect we'll cruise to an easy win, and probably look great doing it. And it won't change my opinion of our team one bit.

I'd pay attention to how well we play in Chapel Hill next weekend. As weird as that sounds, I think that's the only game left in our regular season that will say anything about our postseason chances. If we can play better defense and come close to a draw on the boards, I'll be very encouraged. If not... count me as a member of the camp that thinks we won't be able to shoot our way to Atlanta.

tendev
03-02-2013, 10:02 PM
We got outrebounded in every one of those games. Plus a lot of other games that we won. We haven't played on any neutral courts in January, February or March. Road games are a completely different animal, and I think we did pretty well overall without one of our top players over the past two months. Also, Davidson is not a "really good team," but I'd call them a "good team" and we played them in January in what was technically a home game for them (but was really semi-home or almost neutral) and we did beat them, by 17. And they outrebounded us.

So what was your point again?

I think it is fairly obvious ... we are not a good rebounding team and if the differential gets too large we have to shoot the ball really well to win. In a one and done situation, rebounding is very important because when the pressure is on shooting gets worse. If the other team gets 10 more shots at the basket, that is the difference is a close game.

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 10:02 PM
To be fair, some easy buckets come from offensive rebounds. My biggest beef with the rebounding is the lack of effort on some of the loose balls...

True. Against UVa, Duke got out-hustled and looked a step slow. Tonight the fought but they were against superior athletes. Miami is a very good team. Larkin is a handful and makes that team go. If you can stop him- somehow- Miami will struggle.

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 10:04 PM
None of those is double digits. Today, at home, we got crushed on the boards by double digits and as a result Miami got off 16 more shots. Miami is large to be sure but against UVa we got beat by double digits on the boards. I was commenting on the recent rebounding problems where the last two games we have been out-rebounded by double digits. Ryan will make a difference but we need to keep the margin smaller.

We also didn't have Kelly against UVA. Your arguments are very circular on this and not terribly compelling...

- we got outrebounded badly - and won - against a top 5 team
- Miami has more size, but you're surprised we got outrebounded badly?
- when Miami beat us by 27 without Kelly, they only outrebounded us by 5. Which result would you rather have?
- you concede that Ryan will make a difference but don't really factor that in when lamenting our dec-feb rebounding woes. No Kelly.... Kell-coincidence?

No team in the country does everything well. Every team has a weakness.

As I mentioned earlier, I worry more about our defense, but I think Kelly will help there, too...

mo.st.dukie
03-02-2013, 10:07 PM
None of those is double digits. Today, at home, we got crushed on the boards by double digits and as a result Miami got off 16 more shots. Miami is large to be sure but against UVa we got beat by double digits on the boards. I was commenting on the recent rebounding problems where the last two games we have been out-rebounded by double digits. Ryan will make a difference but we need to keep the margin smaller.



Recent rebounding problems? Have you just started watching recently? It's been a problem since the exhition games and it's widely known as a weakness for this team yet we are 25-4 with that problem as well as an injury problem. Temple is also a "good team" that we beat on a neutral court.

NashvilleDevil
03-02-2013, 10:07 PM
I see no one is taking my advice to heart... but I'm going to repeat it anyway. Ignore this game. It's special, and I believe it has no bearing on what will happen in the ACC/NCAA tournaments. Just file it away as a great win, and a triumphant return for a previously underappreciated player (hopefully we've fixed that, at least).

The next game won't mean much either - we're playing at home against an overmatched opponent, on senior night. Unless our seniors get too wrapped up in the emotion of their final home game at Cameron, I expect we'll cruise to an easy win, and probably look great doing it. And it won't change my opinion of our team one bit.

I'd pay attention to how well we play in Chapel Hill next weekend. As weird as that sounds, I think that's the only game left in our regular season that will say anything about our postseason chances. If we can play better defense and come close to a draw on the boards, I'll be very encouraged. If not... count me as a member of the camp that thinks we won't be able to shoot our way to Atlanta.

Thank you for the wet blanket. Is it to much to enjoy the win now, like you are, and not worry about anything else for a couple days?

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 10:07 PM
But our guards are too small and not great leapers- hence, Duke will have its hand full rebounding the ball.

I don't think being a great leaper is as important to rebounding as a lot of people seem to. Especially for guards. If you're out on the perimeter going for a long rebound, how much will leaping ability really help you? Strength is much more important, for example, and positioning, and boxing out, and knowing the angles so you know where the rebound is going to be, and quickness in getting there, and most of all a simple desire to go get the ball.

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 10:08 PM
I think it is fairly obvious ... we are not a good rebounding team and if the differential gets too large we have to shoot the ball really well to win. In a one and done situation, rebounding is very important because when the pressure is on shooting gets worse. If the other team gets 10 more shots at the basket, that is the difference is a close game.

But if Duke can turn a team over- they can make that up. Duke seemed to play better D when Kelly was in the lineup- and also rebounded a bit better. But yes extra opportunities do hurt and I would prefer Duke to limit extra shots. Not sure they have the players to do it. Curry and Cook are not big, strong/physical or leapers. That does not help the situation. In this game - there were a couple possessions where Miami got multiple offensive rebounds. While it helped them- it is not as if every offensive rebound was leading to points. But this allowed them to stay close.

cptnflash
03-02-2013, 10:12 PM
Thank you for the wet blanket. Is it to much to enjoy the win now, like you are, and not worry about anything else for a couple days?

I was talking more about all the complaining regarding the things we didn't do well tonight.

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 10:12 PM
I don't think being a great leaper is as important to rebounding as a lot of people seem to. Especially for guards. If you're out on the perimeter going for a long rebound, how much will leaping ability really help you? Strength is much more important, for example, and positioning, and boxing out, and knowing the angles so you know where the rebound is going to be, and quickness in getting there, and most of all a simple desire to go get the ball.

Yes and our guards are not the strongest either. You do not need to be a world class leaper- but leg strength does help on those 50-50 balls.

gofurman
03-02-2013, 10:13 PM
We also didn't have Kelly against UVA. Your arguments are very circular on this and not terribly compelling...

- we got outrebounded badly - and won - against a top 5 team
- Miami has more size, but you're surprised we got outrebounded badly?
- when Miami beat us by 27 without Kelly, they only outrebounded us by 5. Which result would you rather have?
- you concede that Ryan will make a difference but don't really factor that in when lamenting our dec-feb rebounding woes. No Kelly.... Kell-coincidence?

No team in the country does everything well. Every team has a weakness.

As I mentioned earlier, I worry more about our defense, but I think Kelly will help there, too...


--------

This is not a negative comment - I am just asking for help understanding: How does Kelly help with our D exactly? Again, NOT a snipe comment - just help me understand.

My simplistic guess would be Kelly pulls an opponent's big away from the basket (tonight that would be Kadji perhaps) so the other team loses a rebounder allowing Mason a one-on-one battle instead of one v two battle. But that is helping spacing when we are on offense.... I guess on D he gives us some length and rebounding ? Just help me understand. Thanks for help here !!!

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 10:15 PM
We also didn't have Kelly against UVA. Your arguments are very circular on this and not terribly compelling...

- we got outrebounded badly - and won - against a top 5 team
- Miami has more size, but you're surprised we got outrebounded badly?
- when Miami beat us by 27 without Kelly, they only outrebounded us by 5. Which result would you rather have?
- you concede that Ryan will make a difference but don't really factor that in when lamenting our dec-feb rebounding woes. No Kelly.... Kell-coincidence?

No team in the country does everything well. Every team has a weakness.

As I mentioned earlier, I worry more about our defense, but I think Kelly will help there, too...

This is not a negative comment - I am just asking for help understanding: How does Kelly help with our D exactly? Again, NOT a snipe comment - just help me understand.

My simplistic guess would be Kelly pulls an opponent's big away from the basket (tonight that would be Kadji perhaps) so the other team loses a rebounder allowing Mason a one-on-one battle instead of one v two battle. But that is helping spacing when we are on offense.... I guess on D he gives us some length and rebounding ? Just help me understand. Thanks for help here !!!

He adds another legit 6'11" shot blocker. He takes charges. He hedges better than any of our other bigs. He rebounds, which stops offensive put backs. He can guard the perimeter or the inside.

Best of all? He communicates. Makes the whole team better.

tendev
03-02-2013, 10:16 PM
We also didn't have Kelly against UVA. Your arguments are very circular on this and not terribly compelling...

- we got outrebounded badly - and won - against a top 5 team
- Miami has more size, but you're surprised we got outrebounded badly?
- when Miami beat us by 27 without Kelly, they only outrebounded us by 5. Which result would you rather have?
- you concede that Ryan will make a difference but don't really factor that in when lamenting our dec-feb rebounding woes. No Kelly.... Kell-coincidence?

No team in the country does everything well. Every team has a weakness.

As I mentioned earlier, I worry more about our defense, but I think Kelly will help there, too...

We won at home today and had to get a heroic offensive performance from RK to do it. He would not have had to score 36 for us to win if the other team did not get 16 more shots at the basket. They got that many, as did UVa, because they out-rebounded us by double digits. I do factor Kelly in as a difference maker on the board but it did not happen today. Maybe Miami is just that large but so are a lot of good teams outside the conference. You say defense. I say rebounding and defense separates a great team from a good team. E.g., 2010.

DukeDevilDeb
03-02-2013, 10:16 PM
Lucky in the sense that when you have a 9 point lead or whatever with 1:30 left and somehow the other team has the ball with a chance to tie or take the lead. That is a pretty epic collapse.

But for the other 58:30, they played a solid game.

Does that mean we played a 60 minute game tonight? No wonder everyone looked so tired!

Welcome back, Ryan. We needed you and every single point you put up. I've watched every game at Cameron since 1986 and have NEVER seen anything like this!

dukelifer
03-02-2013, 10:18 PM
I see no one is taking my advice to heart... but I'm going to repeat it anyway. Ignore this game. It's special, and I believe it has no bearing on what will happen in the ACC/NCAA tournaments. Just file it away as a great win, and a triumphant return for a previously underappreciated player (hopefully we've fixed that, at least).

The next game won't mean much either - we're playing at home against an overmatched opponent, on senior night. Unless our seniors get too wrapped up in the emotion of their final home game at Cameron, I expect we'll cruise to an easy win, and probably look great doing it. And it won't change my opinion of our team one bit.

I'd pay attention to how well we play in Chapel Hill next weekend. As weird as that sounds, I think that's the only game left in our regular season that will say anything about our postseason chances. If we can play better defense and come close to a draw on the boards, I'll be very encouraged. If not... count me as a member of the camp that thinks we won't be able to shoot our way to Atlanta.

I do not really agree. Getting Kelly back in the groove in the next few games will help this team a lot. This was a huge confidence booster for him and the team. I think the team D could get to the level it was at the beginning of the year- and while not great- it was much better than what we have seen of late. The UNC game will be a big test- but it is a rivalry game and that brings out emotions and performances that are not usual. Hard to know if that game will tell us any more about this team.

BobbyFan
03-02-2013, 10:20 PM
K was spot on in his praise of Kelly's game being one of the greatest by a Duke player.

Also a big fan of the floor slap. ;)

FerryFor50
03-02-2013, 10:22 PM
I'm not sure why people aren't more ecstatic - Duke looked like a true #1 with Kelly. Then he got hurt and Duke started looking like they had peaked, but still won a bunch of games, still top 5.

Then we get Kelly back and beat a team that embarrassed us. How many teams can peak and then get a top player back and have him play BETTER than when he got hurt? I am thrilled!

cptnflash
03-02-2013, 10:24 PM
K was spot on in his praise of Kelly's game being one of the greatest by a Duke player.

Also a big fan of the floor slap. ;)

The guys have been waiting to do that since they got on the plane to come home from Coral Gables. Glad they got the chance!

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 10:26 PM
This is not a negative comment - I am just asking for help understanding: How does Kelly help with our D exactly? Again, NOT a snipe comment - just help me understand.

My simplistic guess would be Kelly pulls an opponent's big away from the basket (tonight that would be Kadji perhaps) so the other team loses a rebounder allowing Mason a one-on-one battle instead of one v two battle. But that is helping spacing when we are on offense.... I guess on D he gives us some length and rebounding ? Just help me understand. Thanks for help here !!!

Well, first of all, if you look at the numbers we were clearly a MUCH better defensive team with Ryan than without him, there shouldn't be any legitimate debate about that, but having said that I think it's reasonable to explore why.

I'd say it's for several reasons. First, Ryan's size makes it a lot more difficult for guys like Kadji, Leslie, Wiltjer, and Deshaun Thomas to dominate their matchup. Second, Ryan has become a good enough one-on-one defender to stay in front of his man even on switches (which Amile and Josh can't do). Third, Ryan is a far superior help defender to anyone else on our roster, which is critical in Duke's defensive scheme. Fourth, Ryan is an outstanding weak-side shot-blocker and is also really good at drawing charges. Fifth, Ryan is much better at hedging on screens and recovering than either Amile or Josh, which is important in battling the pick-and-roll. Finally, Ryan's presence allows Mason to play D with a bit more abandon (both because he can be more confident that Ryan will slide over to help and also because it's not as crucial that Mason stay out of foul trouble). Personally, I think that's a lot. Hopefully, our defense will begin to gel again now that Ryan has returned.

EDIT: Also, as FerryFor50 pointed out, Ryan is a very good communicator on the court, and that's very important for Duke's defensive performance.

Kedsy
03-02-2013, 10:29 PM
You say defense. I say rebounding and defense separates a great team from a good team. E.g., 2010.

Actually, while our 2010 team was one of the best Duke offensive rebounding teams ever, it wasn't really any better at defensive rebounding than this year's team. Our defensive rebounding percentage in 2010 was 67.5% and this season it's 67.4%. Pretty much exactly the same.

roywhite
03-02-2013, 10:34 PM
I'd say it's for several reasons. First, Ryan's size makes it a lot more difficult for guys like Kadji, Leslie, Wiltjer, and Deshaun Thomas to dominate their matchup. Second, Ryan has become a good enough one-on-one defender to stay in front of his man even on switches (which Amile and Josh can't do). Third, Ryan is a far superior help defender to anyone else on our roster, which is critical in Duke's defensive scheme. Fourth, Ryan is an outstanding weak-side shot-blocker and is also really good at drawing charges. Fifth, Ryan is much better at hedging on screens and recovering than either Amile or Josh, which is important in battling the pick-and-roll. Finally, Ryan's presence allows Mason to play D with a bit more abandon (both because he can be more confident that Ryan will slide over to help and also because it's not as crucial that Mason stay out of foul trouble). Personally, I think that's a lot. Hopefully, our defense will begin to gel again now that Ryan has returned.

EDIT: Also, as FerryFor50 pointed out, Ryan is a very good communicator on the court, and that's very important for Duke's defensive performance.

Yeah, still some adjusting to do, as Coach K noted in his post-game comments:


I really thought in the first half that he was so unbelievable that it had an impact on our guys. In other words you start watching him because we havenít had him for two months. So we didnít get a couple loose balls. We could have made a few plays that we didnít make.

Furniture
03-02-2013, 10:53 PM
The people here arguing about this and that sure know how to ruin a good time...

Agreed

subzero02
03-02-2013, 11:12 PM
Lucky in the sense that when you have a 9 point lead or whatever with 1:30 left and somehow the other team has the ball with a chance to tie or take the lead. That is a pretty epic collapse.

But for the other 58:30, they played a solid game.

I know it seemed like an extra long game(Partially due to the errors of the clock operator), but it was only 40 minutes of game time, give or take 5 seconds

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 11:16 PM
Agreed

Yea, I was not overly impressed with the teams execution tonight on the defensive end, but I cannot get over what RK did.

His performance should be the focus of discussion at least for tonight and tomorrow, he deserves that as a senior and for what he did over the past several weeks to work his tail off to come back the way he did.

It was RK's night and we should all be happy for him, there will be time later to discuss the opportunities for improvement....

uh_no
03-02-2013, 11:21 PM
Yea, I was not overly impressed with the teams execution tonight on the defensive end, but I cannot get over what RK did.

His performance should be the focus of discussion at least for tonight and tomorrow, he deserves that as a senior and for what he did over the past several weeks to work his tail off to come back the way he did.

It was RK's night and we should all be happy for him, there will be time later to discuss the opportunities for improvement....

It seems, at least to me, that some of the execution on D might have been readjusting to rotations with Ryan. think for the other guys, Ryan wasn't where they might have expecting him to be....not that he was necessarily in the wrong spot, just that it might have been a different spot than where amile or josh or alex might have been in the same situation. To be able to make the switches and hedge instinctively takes time, and i can't blame them for missing some big cuts and not providing help in some of those situations.

They obviously made some good adjustments at halftime, and I would expect us to be much better with time, especially game time on tuesday, and ready for 9F on saturday.

Durham Thunder
03-02-2013, 11:28 PM
I was in the house for this game...Ryan Kelly was a man possessed, and our shining light. AMAZING.

Any explanation why we NEVER saw Jefferson?

Duvall
03-02-2013, 11:31 PM
Any explanation why we NEVER saw Jefferson?

Yeah, Reggie Johnson and Julian Gamble.

El_Diablo
03-02-2013, 11:33 PM
Yeah, Reggie Johnson and Julian Gamble.

And Kenny Kadji.

Oh, and Ryan Kelly.

Bojangles4Eva
03-02-2013, 11:33 PM
I'd say it's for several reasons. First, Ryan's size makes it a lot more difficult for guys like Kadji, Leslie, Wiltjer, and Deshaun Thomas to dominate their matchup. Second, Ryan has become a good enough one-on-one defender to stay in front of his man even on switches (which Amile and Josh can't do). Third, Ryan is a far superior help defender to anyone else on our roster, which is critical in Duke's defensive scheme. Fourth, Ryan is an outstanding weak-side shot-blocker and is also really good at drawing charges. Fifth, Ryan is much better at hedging on screens and recovering than either Amile or Josh, which is important in battling the pick-and-roll. Finally, Ryan's presence allows Mason to play D with a bit more abandon (both because he can be more confident that Ryan will slide over to help and also because it's not as crucial that Mason stay out of foul trouble). Personally, I think that's a lot. Hopefully, our defense will begin to gel again now that Ryan has returned.



I would also add that Ryan is a better defensive rebounder than either Amile or Josh. His numbers (per ESPN) if you look at defensive rebounds per minutes played are almost identical to Amile, but I think this can be misleading when you consider that Amile (at least in the beginning of the season) played a majority of his minutes against weaker competition, while Ryan was putting up the majority of minutes at the 4 against UK, Minn, VCU, UL, and OSU. Ryan has distinctively better height than Josh, and much better bulk than Amile. While Amile may be crafty on the glass, especially on offensive rebounds, I think Ryan is a more fundamentally sound defensive rebounder.

On that subject, I have not liked Mason's lack of boxing out lately. There have been certain plays (the Joe Harris offensive rebound near the end of UVA off a missed three comes to mind) where it appears that he just waits for the ball to come to him, instead of putting a body on his man ensuring that it will come to him.

uh_no
03-02-2013, 11:53 PM
And Kenny Kadji.

Oh, and Ryan Kelly.

spot on

it's crunch time, we have our RK back, when the big time games come, we're going 7 deep....unless there is foul or injury trouble, I don't think there's much reason for amile or alex to get PT....."getting experience" isn't really applicable right now...

THey may get some minutes tuesday, if the game is out of hand, or next week in the friday game, if it's out of hand.....

but no way they see any time in close games unless someone has fouls on them.

tommy
03-02-2013, 11:55 PM
Sorry if this was covered in the in-game thread, which I haven't read. And I am not bringing this up in order to be negative. I am absolutely thrilled with the win tonight, and Ryan Kelly's performance was one for the ages. No doubt about it.

But:

Has anyone heard, or can anyone come up with, a legitimate explanation for why Mason Plumlee was handling the ball in the backcourt against Miami pressure in the last two minutes? Repeatedly. Look: for starters, Ryan Kelly is a much better and much more instinctive passer than is Mason Plumlee. He should be inbounding the ball in the first place. Moreover, if Duke's strategy is that the man who receives the first pass is, upon being trapped, going to pass it back to the man who inbounded, then why on earth would you want Mason to be that inbounder, when he's almost certain to get fouled as soon as he receives that return pass? Why wouldn't you want Kelly to be the guy getting fouled and going to the line? Why?

If you really want Mason to inbound the ball for some reason, after doing so he should run straight to the front court and just get away from the ball. I know his free throw shooting has improved a lot this year, but the guys handling the ball in pressured, end-of-game situations for this team should be Kelly, Cook, and Curry. Not Mason Plumlee. Those three are our best ballhandlers and our best free throwers. I know Mason hit a few free throws, but he missed a few too, and then overthrew that pass-ahead to Seth -- a pass I don't think I've ever seen him attempt before. Not the time to be trying out new stuff, know what I mean?

I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

Durham Thunder
03-02-2013, 11:58 PM
While our 2 most important posts were in the game, we've seen that Jefferson can rip down rebounds when he has the opportunity. I thought between him and Hairston, we'd see him get some minutes and some badly needed rebounds.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 12:03 AM
While our 2 most important posts were in the game, we've seen that Jefferson can rip down rebounds when he has the opportunity. I thought between him and Hairston, we'd see him get some minutes and some badly needed rebounds.

you said it yourself...mason and ryan are our two most important posts....i'm not sure we can sacrifice one of their minutes so amile can get some rebounds.....maybe we would rebound better, but the cost in other phases of the game is too great.

Either way, I'm not wholly convinced that amile is a better rebounder than ryan when faced with bulky opposition.

Bluealum
03-03-2013, 12:05 AM
Yea, I was not overly impressed with the teams execution tonight on the defensive end, but I cannot get over what RK did.

His performance should be the focus of discussion at least for tonight and tomorrow, he deserves that as a senior and for what he did over the past several weeks to work his tail off to come back the way he did.

It was RK's night and we should all be happy for him, there will be time later to discuss the opportunities for improvement....

This again! To summarize:

1.) ummm Ryan is back
2.) He looked pretty good
3.) He just nuked his career high and had a game for the ages
4.) We beat the team that was lined up for the No.1 spot had they beaten us, so sayeth Dickie V
5.) We solidified our hold as a two seed vs losing two in a row and possibly 3/4 if we lost at chapheeya
6.) We are back in the conversation as a 1 seed
7.) our confidence and mojo has to have skyrocketed

I for one am still quite giddy. It's good to be a Blue Devil this night!

sagegrouse
03-03-2013, 12:06 AM
SG on the Pre-Game thread: Here are my questions for Saturday's game:

1.Which Miami team will show up? The one that sluaghtered us last time or the one that got blown out by Wake?
2.Which Duke team will show up? The team that won seven ACC home games by an average of 17 points or the team that struggled against Maryland, Virginia, Miami and State on the road?
3.Will Rasheed rebound from a poor outing against UVa?
4.Will Ryan (a) play and (b) be a factor?
5.Will it be raining threes for Duke?

1. Miami is pretty darned good and played much better than in recent road games.

2. Neither Duke team showed up. Instead, Ryan Kelly took over the game and put everyone else in a supporting role. No discredit to Mason, Seth, and Rasheed. There is only one ball. I thought Quinn was our second best player, although everyone made good plays in the second half.

3. Rasheed did very well in the last three minutes. Wow! Until then, not much.

4. Ryan to play and be effective? "Yes" and "Hell, Yes!"

5. Raining threes? Eleven for 23 is a veritable deluge.

Good game. Very exciting. And Coach even gets stuff to rag the team about from out mistakes and misses in the last two minutes.

An epic performance in a critical game. This is one for the books and will be remembered for 50 years.

sagegrouse

ChicagoCrazy84
03-03-2013, 12:16 AM
you said it yourself...mason and ryan are our two most important posts....i'm not sure we can sacrifice one of their minutes so amile can get some rebounds.....maybe we would rebound better, but the cost in other phases of the game is too great.

Either way, I'm not wholly convinced that amile is a better rebounder than ryan when faced with bulky opposition.

Agreed, I think Coach K made the right call by not calling his number. I doubt it was pre-meditated where K said ok, Amile is not playing today." I just think that the way Ryan was shooting from start to finish and Josh having more experience and bulk, the opportunity never really came to put Amile in. We've been playing the 3 guard lineup 98% of the season and I don't think that is going to change just to make sure Amile gets a few minutes.

-bdbd
03-03-2013, 01:03 AM
Gotta fess up, I did not see this coming at all. AT ALL. I was on the pre-game thread saying, IF he does play we shouldn't expect more than ten minutes and maybe 5 points. OK, so I was a little off.... :rolleyes:

Just wow.

They will be talking about this one for years. "I was there when RK went off in his comeback game..."

I hope we can keep some semblance of his momentum rolling through the season's end, and into the ACCT.
I sure hope the other guys don't start standing around waiting for Ryan to save the day too much. Will be looking for a lot more balance vs. VPI and NC@CH.

BTW, credit deserved by Miami. They just would not go away. That is a well-coached, real talented and mature team that has a very real chance to make the NCAAT FF.

ojaidave
03-03-2013, 01:11 AM
Sorry if this was covered in the in-game thread, which I haven't read. And I am not bringing this up in order to be negative. I am absolutely thrilled with the win tonight, and Ryan Kelly's performance was one for the ages. No doubt about it.

But:

Has anyone heard, or can anyone come up with, a legitimate explanation for why Mason Plumlee was handling the ball in the backcourt against Miami pressure in the last two minutes? Repeatedly. Look: for starters, Ryan Kelly is a much better and much more instinctive passer than is Mason Plumlee. He should be inbounding the ball in the first place. Moreover, if Duke's strategy is that the man who receives the first pass is, upon being trapped, going to pass it back to the man who inbounded, then why on earth would you want Mason to be that inbounder, when he's almost certain to get fouled as soon as he receives that return pass? Why wouldn't you want Kelly to be the guy getting fouled and going to the line? Why?

If you really want Mason to inbound the ball for some reason, after doing so he should run straight to the front court and just get away from the ball. I know his free throw shooting has improved a lot this year, but the guys handling the ball in pressured, end-of-game situations for this team should be Kelly, Cook, and Curry. Not Mason Plumlee. Those three are our best ballhandlers and our best free throwers. I know Mason hit a few free throws, but he missed a few too, and then overthrew that pass-ahead to Seth -- a pass I don't think I've ever seen him attempt before. Not the time to be trying out new stuff, know what I mean?

I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

Remember what a wreck it was when Kelly went out in January and Mason had to inbound the ball against a press? Mason struggled initially because Ryan had been the inbounder throughout the early season. Fast forward 8 weeks and Mason has been inbounding the ball for the last couple of months (both in practices and in games) and knows, probably instinctively at this point in the season, what cuts the players are going to make and where they're going to be. I'm sure K wanted to go with what the players knew in crunch time. My guess is that over the next week Ryan will reclaim the roll of inbounding the ball (assuming he didn't aggravate anything tonight).

DukeAlumBS
03-03-2013, 02:56 AM
Talk about poise, confidence, court savey. Kelly is back and also practicing his 3 point shot as well. We would have been higher. Seth Currey was off.
Digger Phelps had us losing as usual. I will harass him at ESPN when he comments again. I feel strong with this team already for the tourney!

Nice day my friends,

Jimmy

Bob Green
03-03-2013, 05:34 AM
I like the way Coach K masterfully eased Ryan Kelly back into the rotation. :cool: I also like the way El Lard Butt was held scoreless, no flexing of biceps this year.

tele
03-03-2013, 05:37 AM
I agree. Need to stop the easy buckets. Kelly will help a little there. But our guards are too small and not great leapers- hence, Duke will have its hand full rebounding the ball. But they can out-shoot many teams. You have to win the way you can.

I agree. Playing help defense on penetrating guards makes it tough to block out and rebound. With Kelly back Duke now has another way to win. Now all the teams that have been double teaming mason from the 4 will have to try something else, thank you 36 pts, very much. Guard play against bigger and/or quicker guards may still cause problems with some teams but with Kelly back and Josh and Amile's increased experience, Duke will have more players to use in the paint to try and limit that (there were three players rotating and taking charges in the Miami game).

Great win, nice way to bounce back from the last game. Cameron looked and sounded great, kudos to the Crazies for bringing their A game too.

NashvilleDevil
03-03-2013, 05:46 AM
Miami loses just about everyone next year, right? I could've sworn Durand Scott started when Redick was still at Duke.

oldnavy
03-03-2013, 06:02 AM
Remember what a wreck it was when Kelly went out in January and Mason had to inbound the ball against a press? Mason struggled initially because Ryan had been the inbounder throughout the early season. Fast forward 8 weeks and Mason has been inbounding the ball for the last couple of months (both in practices and in games) and knows, probably instinctively at this point in the season, what cuts the players are going to make and where they're going to be. I'm sure K wanted to go with what the players knew in crunch time. My guess is that over the next week Ryan will reclaim the roll of inbounding the ball (assuming he didn't aggravate anything tonight).

This post is spot on. I was wondering the same thing last night until I realized that Kelly hasn't had any reps as the inbounder in what 2 months?? I agree with the OP, that he will probably work back into that job real soon.

tbyers11
03-03-2013, 06:09 AM
Miami loses just about everyone next year, right? I could've sworn Durand Scott started when Redick was still at Duke.

Yep. Everyone in the top seven except Larkin (So) and Rion Brown (Jr).

tele
03-03-2013, 06:31 AM
[QUOTE=gofurman;632206]

He adds another legit 6'11" shot blocker. He takes charges. He hedges better than any of our other bigs. He rebounds, which stops offensive put backs. He can guard the perimeter or the inside.

Best of all? He communicates. Makes the whole team better.

Wow! If only he could score the ball too!;)

He helps the team in a lot of ways, all important, but taking charges and communicating may be the most helpful. He's also a senior so he brings it at the right moments too.

Kishiznit
03-03-2013, 06:39 AM
I was able to see the game in person yesterday and it was the most electric game at Cameron I have ever seen. How would that environment compare to a game when the powder blue squad visits?

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 06:51 AM
Yep. Everyone in the top seven except Larkin (So) and Rion Brown (Jr).

Not so sure about Larkin- looking like Pro out there to me.

slower
03-03-2013, 06:51 AM
I also like the way El Lard Butt was held scoreless, no flexing of biceps this year.

And despite the fact that it almost blew up horribly in our faces, major props to Quinn for leading the floor slap at the end. No matter what he does, you gotta love the kid's heart and swagger.

Just sorry that the Crazies had nothing special for El Lard Butt #2, AKA Bankrupt Warren Sapp.

NashvilleDevil
03-03-2013, 06:53 AM
Just sorry that the Crazies had nothing special for El Lard Butt #2, AKA Bankrupt Warren Sapp.

Best to not acknowledge him at all since that's what he would've wanted.

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 06:59 AM
1. Miami is pretty darned good and played much better than in recent road games.

2. Neither Duke team showed up. Instead, Ryan Kelly took over the game and put everyone else in a supporting role. No discredit to Mason, Seth, and Rasheed. There is only one ball. I thought Quinn was our second best player, although everyone made good plays in the second half.

3. Rasheed did very well in the last three minutes. Wow! Until then, not much.

4. Ryan to play and be effective? "Yes" and "Hell, Yes!"

5. Raining threes? Eleven for 23 is a veritable deluge.

Good game. Very exciting. And Coach even gets stuff to rag the team about from out mistakes and misses in the last two minutes.

An epic performance in a critical game. This is one for the books and will be remembered for 50 years.

sagegrouse

Yes. I re-watched the game after seeing it live. Quinn was excellent and hit big shots. I would like to see him penetrate and dish more- but he is playing very well of late. The kid likes the big moment and games.

Furniture
03-03-2013, 07:05 AM
If I close my eyes I can still see Reggie johnson raising doing his strongman thing last year. I am so glad that he was a "nothing" yesterday. This win is SWeet!
On ESPN after the game they were really talking up Duke.

tele
03-03-2013, 07:09 AM
Sorry if this was covered in the in-game thread, which I haven't read. And I am not bringing this up in order to be negative. I am absolutely thrilled with the win tonight, and Ryan Kelly's performance was one for the ages. No doubt about it.

But:

Has anyone heard, or can anyone come up with, a legitimate explanation for why Mason Plumlee was handling the ball in the backcourt against Miami pressure in the last two minutes? Repeatedly. Look: for starters, Ryan Kelly is a much better and much more instinctive passer than is Mason Plumlee. He should be inbounding the ball in the first place. Moreover, if Duke's strategy is that the man who receives the first pass is, upon being trapped, going to pass it back to the man who inbounded, then why on earth would you want Mason to be that inbounder, when he's almost certain to get fouled as soon as he receives that return pass? Why wouldn't you want Kelly to be the guy getting fouled and going to the line? Why?

If you really want Mason to inbound the ball for some reason, after doing so he should run straight to the front court and just get away from the ball. I know his free throw shooting has improved a lot this year, but the guys handling the ball in pressured, end-of-game situations for this team should be Kelly, Cook, and Curry. Not Mason Plumlee. Those three are our best ballhandlers and our best free throwers. I know Mason hit a few free throws, but he missed a few too, and then overthrew that pass-ahead to Seth -- a pass I don't think I've ever seen him attempt before. Not the time to be trying out new stuff, know what I mean?

I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

I wondered this myself. It may be partly because Curry and Cook were being smothered by Scott and Larkin and they are susceptible to being trapped since they can't see or pass over the double team like a taller player, Mason/Ryan. Ryan and Mason are both seniors who can handle the ball and if they have to, can put it one the floor too. Ryan is a good free throw shooter and Mason is not terrible anymore, he hit 50% of the endgame FTs didn't he? Not great but beats a turnover.

The pass to Curry was a catchable ball, it was barely 2 feet over Curry's head. Curry just seemed to get caught between steps or whether to stop and go up and grab it or keep running and take it as a lead pass. He didn't jump up to get it and then when he turned to catch it as a lead pass he stumbled. I don't know if he could have caught up with it if he hadn't stumbled but he definitely got wrong footed on the play. Too bad too, because a bucket there would have sealed it and made the last possessions much less stressful. Curry had a tough battle all game with Scott so can see why his legs might have been tired at that point of the game. I think it was a good idea and a pretty good pass from where Mason threw it.

Mason and Ryan's main benefit in handling the press was their height to see over and pass over traps and their experience in making good decisions in critical situations. Ideally you'd like your guards to handle this but they had very tough matchups with bigger and quicker players. Was a bit unconventional but we've seen Kelly and Mason both help bring the ball up against the press all season right?

Buckeye Devil
03-03-2013, 07:14 AM
I also liked the way Rasheed kept in the game. He was having a bit of a rough night but at the end of the game he took the ball to the rack very strong. He got that one loose ball and just took off not to be denied.

It is still a little painful to watch 1) Duke's rebounding woes, 2) getting beat off the dribble. It also looked like Miami was getting away with some extra steps and quite a bit of grabbing from my humble television perspective here in Ohio.

Papa John
03-03-2013, 07:20 AM
Any explanation why we NEVER saw Jefferson?

Yes. Because...


Ryan Kelly was a man possessed, and our shining light. AMAZING.

Carry on...

NashvilleDevil
03-03-2013, 07:21 AM
I also liked the way Rasheed kept in the game. He was having a bit of a rough night but at the end of the game he took the ball to the rack very strong. He got that one loose ball and just took off not to be denied.

It is still a little painful to watch 1) Duke's rebounding woes, 2) getting beat off the dribble. It also looked like Miami was getting away with some extra steps and quite a bit of grabbing from my humble television perspective here in Ohio.

Not to mention Reggie Johnson pushing off on just about every rebound opportunity on Miami's end.

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 07:22 AM
I was able to see the game in person yesterday and it was the most electric game at Cameron I have ever seen. How would that environment compare to a game when the powder blue squad visits?

It was pretty close. The fact that Miami was highly ranked, has several potential pros, crushed Duke earlier and beat them last year, made them seem like a real rival. While Miami is not our rival and may never be- for one night they played the role. The game also was back and forth. So if you did not look at the unis- this was like an old time UNC game with fewer celebs in the crowd.

Buckeye Devil
03-03-2013, 07:34 AM
Nice to see Warren Sapp and the Miami thug contingent sent packing last night. It seems like Miami always has a certain element about them dating all the way back to the late 80's and early 90's football team.

Saratoga2
03-03-2013, 07:37 AM
I agree our 3 guard line-up is part of the issue but to my eye Mason has been less aggressive in the past couple of games - he is usually good about going up and contesting rebounds but he seems to be hesitant to go after 50-50 balls. Having Ryan back helps some but Mason needs to focus on owning the defensive boards.

He played fairly well but 5 rebounds and only two fouls indicates that he could have been more aggressive.

BlueDevilBrowns
03-03-2013, 07:38 AM
Not to mention Reggie Johnson pushing off in just about every rebound opportunity on Miami's end.


The Johnson Push-Off is almost as legendary as The Hansbrough Shuffle.;)

sagegrouse
03-03-2013, 07:51 AM
I also liked the way Rasheed kept in the game. He was having a bit of a rough night but at the end of the game he took the ball to the rack very strong. He got that one loose ball and just took off not to be denied.

It is still a little painful to watch 1) Duke's rebounding woes, 2) getting beat off the dribble. It also looked like Miami was getting away with some extra steps and quite a bit of grabbing from my humble television perspective here in Ohio.

Anyone else notice that when Miami could not drive to the hoop, it had very little offensive thrust. Larkin took some really poor shots for lack of anything else to do. Miami had only seven assists -- mostly on dishes near the basket.

sagegrouse

oldnavy
03-03-2013, 07:52 AM
Did Miami get called for any illegal screens last night? I don't remember seeing one.

Have the refs eased up on that call? It was being called a couple of times each game, but I don't remember seeing one in this game, and it was noted (with some consternation) that UVa wasn't called for one during that game.

Miami set A LOT of high screens, and I do not remember any one standing out as a violation, but it seems a little odd that the calls have seemed to stop.

tbyers11
03-03-2013, 08:22 AM
Did Miami get called for any illegal screens last night? I don't remember seeing one.

Have the refs eased up on that call? It was being called a couple of times each game, but I don't remember seeing one in this game, and it was noted (with some consternation) that UVa wasn't called for one during that game.

Miami set A LOT of high screens, and I do not remember any one standing out as a violation, but it seems a little odd that the calls have seemed to stop.

Reggie was called for one in the first half. Larkin tried to switch directions and Reggie kept moving and never set himself. Moving screens are a very tricky call to make. I'd rather refs have a no call unless they are blatant (a couple UVa screens come to mind). I remember Josh getting called for one first half that was fairly obvious and I thought the refs did a good job on those calls yesterday.

TruBlu
03-03-2013, 08:23 AM
I also liked the way Rasheed kept in the game. He was having a bit of a rough night but at the end of the game he took the ball to the rack very strong. He got that one loose ball and just took off not to be denied.

It is still a little painful to watch 1) Duke's rebounding woes, 2) getting beat off the dribble. It also looked like Miami was getting away with some extra steps and quite a bit of grabbing from my humble television perspective here in Ohio.

Your perspective from Ohio matched mine from Cameron.

It also seems to me that when we get beat off the dribble, and a Miami player got close to the rim, Mason made very few efforts to defend the rim unless it was his man.

As far as our rebounding, we just don't seem to be aggressive in going after the ball, even when we have position. Just seems that we are content to let the ball come to us, which allows opposing aggressive players to out-hustle us to get the rebound.

Otherwise, great win against a very good Miami team. Without Ryan's superhuman effort, the result would not have been pretty.

bedeviled
03-03-2013, 08:30 AM
Yes. I re-watched the game after seeing it live. Quinn was excellent and hit big shots. I would like to see him penetrate and dish more- but he is playing very well of late. The kid likes the big moment and games.Hmm, you and sagegrouse may be very well be right - Quinn might have been our 2nd best player. But, I thought he was throroughly schooled in the head-to-head comparison, numbers aside. And, I recall being dismayed with the shot selection (especially from a PG) even when he did hit. It's not that big of a deal - some games are good, some are bad, some opponents are stellar, and some aren't.
What did actually bother me, though was the "likes the big moment and games" bit (which I 100% agree with). I thought it was unfathomable that he would turn to face the crowd, beat his chest, scream, etc as if "I'm the best in the world!" after his big plays despite routinely getting waxed. In fairness, he also postured considerably when he was beaten...just in a "I'm the worst in the world!" way :D
I wish the coaching staff (as passionate as any player) would carry themselves like that just once to show players what they look like - I think it would be hilarious.

The positive take-home is: Ryan exhibited maturity and character despite owning that game (I feel like he beat Miami AND Duke to win this one! ;) ). He was upbeat, positive, lethal, and in control - he played like a Champion.

NYBri
03-03-2013, 08:31 AM
One of the most entertaining games I've seen at CIS.

Miami is really, really good and Larkin reminds me of JWill's skill set. He's is very good and the team is built around his ability to drive. That runner he's got is a killer.

BUT, the defense was ready for it. I saw QCook take on the challenge.

Wish we could rebound a little better, but what a win that was.

Neals384
03-03-2013, 08:49 AM
I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

He didn't actually STEP out. On the replay you could see that he was at least a foot from the line with nice, balanced posture. Suddenly, his left foot slipped - badly - and appeard to just nick the line. Sure looked to me like there must have been a wet spot on the court. So that's not on Quinn.

roywhite
03-03-2013, 08:56 AM
A statistical tidbit:

Ryan is shooting 56.1% on 3-pt attempts for the year; 32-57 total
He would have to stay at that level of accuracy to break the school season record of 55.7% on 54-97 total, by....
Another 6'11" sharpshooter, Christian Laettner in 1991-92.

_Gary
03-03-2013, 09:06 AM
A statistical tidbit:

Ryan is shooting 56.1% on 3-pt attempts for the year; 32-57 total
He would have to stay at that level of accuracy to break the school season record of 55.7% on 54-97 total, by....
Another 6'11" sharpshooter, Christian Laettner in 1991-92.

I'll go out on a limb and say this: If Ryan does continue to shoot the 3 ball that well and break Christian's percentage record, I think he'll do it while also holding up a National Championship trophy. So here's hoping he keeps shooting that high a percentage!!! :)

CDu
03-03-2013, 09:15 AM
That was fun! Obviously, the story of the night was Kelly. Along with others, I said that I didn't think it'd take long to reintegrate Kelly into the team (i.e., not an Irving-like situation). But I couldn't have imagined that Kelly would play this well. My thoughts on the game:

Miami:
- They are REALLY good. They may not get a #1 seed, but they are on a VERY short list of teams I don't want to face in the NCAA tournament.
- Miami is a bad bad matchup for Curry and Sulaimon. Their wings are big (all 6'5"+), physical, athletic and experienced (two seniors and a junior). They dominated the matchup in Coral Gables and they again made life difficult for our perimeter guys.
- Shane Larkin is off the charts. His quickness, shooting ability, and confidence are tremendous. He's the best PG in the league.
- I can't believe how poorly Reggie Johnson played. Big Reg has typically played REALLY well against Plumlee, but he just didn't have it last night (0-5, 0 points, 4 fouls).

Duke:
- Welcome back, Ryan Kelly. In a big, big way.
- Mason had a quiet night, in part because Miami chose to concentrate on him rather than Kelly. But when Mason had his opportunities, he was pretty effective.
- It was interesting that, for a decent stretch of the second half, Cook was moved off the ball on offense (Curry ran the point). It has been a tough few weeks for Cook the playmaker (not so true for Cook the scorer). Cook's line ended up fine (12 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 turnovers), but I again came away unimpressed with his PG play. Hopefully with Kelly back he'll settle back into his role of creating offense for others.
- Happy that Sulaimon (who struggled for much of the night) had a couple of huge buckets later in the game. His driving bucket against Johnson and his fast break bucket with foul on Kadji were so huge.
- Our first 38.5 minutes were just fabulous. Unfortunately, the game is 40 minutes long, and our last 1.5 minutes were really shaky. We showed a real lack of composure, making several mistakes. We twice passed the ball away from a good FT shooter to Mason, who then held the ball too long rather than passing back to a good shooter. That cost us 1-2 points at the line. Then, Mason inbounded to Cook in the corner. It looked like Cook slid and his foot grazed the sideline, but we shouldn't have inbounded the ball to the corner. That's a defense's best friend. Finally, Mason threw the ball way to high in an attempted pass to Curry, resulting in another turnover. What should have been a comfortable win ended up being a nailbiter. We need to clean that up, because hopefully we'll be in many more situations where we're protecting the lead late.

Still, the important things are this:
- Kelly is healthy, and clearly not showing any rust.
- We won against a very good team.

Everything else is a discussion on the margins.

MChambers
03-03-2013, 09:18 AM
Did Miami get called for any illegal screens last night? I don't remember seeing one.

Have the refs eased up on that call? It was being called a couple of times each game, but I don't remember seeing one in this game, and it was noted (with some consternation) that UVa wasn't called for one during that game.

Miami set A LOT of high screens, and I do not remember any one standing out as a violation, but it seems a little odd that the calls have seemed to stop.
I was going to ask about this. There were several instances where Duke defenders were screened by Miami bigs who were moving. I remember Tyler being screened by a moving big in the first half and the Miami guard hit a 3. I was screaming at the TV.

I don't know why the refs weren't calling it, unless the Duke guards weren't making much contact with the screeners.

mgtr
03-03-2013, 09:20 AM
CDu -- excellent summary of an excellent game.

Buckeye Devil
03-03-2013, 09:22 AM
Your perspective from Ohio matched mine from Cameron.

It also seems to me that when we get beat off the dribble, and a Miami player got close to the rim, Mason made very few efforts to defend the rim unless it was his man.

As far as our rebounding, we just don't seem to be aggressive in going after the ball, even when we have position. Just seems that we are content to let the ball come to us, which allows opposing aggressive players to out-hustle us to get the rebound.

Otherwise, great win against a very good Miami team. Without Ryan's superhuman effort, the result would not have been pretty.

I noticed a few times when Miami took it to the hole that they would shoot it from 6'-a little floater-instead of going in for a lay up. But I think you are right for the most part. Mason seemed to shy away from defending the rim. I think he was trying to stay out of foul trouble. Agree with your rebounding assessment as well. It seemed like Miami could take it right out of our hands.

moonpie23
03-03-2013, 09:30 AM
miami is an excellent team that has the pieces to go deep in the tourny.

Duke, also has the pieces. Having ryan back gives opposing teams some extra worries.


ACC tourny will be very interesting this year....

Billy Dat
03-03-2013, 09:36 AM
I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

One positive I can think of, and I am not sure this was the intention but it was a by product, is that it gave Mason some more reps at the line in a high pressure spot. On some level, it showed the big fella that the coaching staff has complete faith in him. I know it's a logical stretch, and I will now go and drink my half full water glass.

On another note, did anyone else jump out of their seat with 7:40 left in the second, right after we pushed out to a 4 point lead, when Larkin had a clear lane to the hoop and Mason finally FINALLY zipped over and swatted the shot? It was a big moment.

In a lot of ways, it was a Kelly v Larkin mano a mano, and its funny because there were a few sequences where Kelly wound up switched onto Larkin, Larkin would score on him, and Kelly would come back down and score himself. Many was the time that Kelly was the guy pulling the huddle together and doing all the talking. Love it.

weezie
03-03-2013, 09:56 AM
[Quinn's] his left foot slipped - badly - and appeared to just nick the line.

What ensued was a masterful performance by a referee as eagle-eyed Brian Kersey raced down the sideline to touch the exact, tiny, laser-eye-cyborg-measured millimeter where Quinn slipped. I mean Brian is just that good! He sees through lead AND Reggie Johnson's bulk! Brian actually called a few fouls in the state-gtech game last night! Brian's already called one in the vtech game this Tuesday night!
I wish Coach K wouldn't yell at Brian so much....K is going to make Hess jealous. :cool:

Papa John
03-03-2013, 10:15 AM
I also liked the way Rasheed kept in the game. He was having a bit of a rough night but at the end of the game he took the ball to the rack very strong. He got that one loose ball and just took off not to be denied.

It is still a little painful to watch 1) Duke's rebounding woes, 2) getting beat off the dribble. It also looked like Miami was getting away with some extra steps and quite a bit of grabbing from my humble television perspective here in Ohio.

Against UVa, the officiating was horrendously inconsistent, as the Wahoos were allowed to play very physical while we were being whistled for a lot of ticky-tack fouls. Last night was consistent--the zebras allowed physical play by both teams. That's all you can ask for, that fouls are called the same way on both ends of the floor.

That said, there was a stretch of 3 consecutive possessions where Miami got away with blatant walks (two of them by Kadji), followed by a fourth later on in the game. Other than those missteps, I thought the officiating was okay.

Matches
03-03-2013, 10:24 AM
- It was interesting that, for a decent stretch of the second half, Cook was moved off the ball on offense (Curry ran the point). It has been a tough few weeks for Cook the playmaker (not so true for Cook the scorer). Cook's line ended up fine (12 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 turnovers), but I again came away unimpressed with his PG play. Hopefully with Kelly back he'll settle back into his role of creating offense for others.


I wondered if that move was made more to get Curry ON the ball rather than to get Cook off of it. As you note, Curry was really struggling with the matchup, barely touched the ball at all in the first half. Having him bring the ball up the court at least ensures he's touching it at some point during the possession.

hillsborodevil
03-03-2013, 10:27 AM
Maybe the wrong thread but R Kelly's performance increased his draft stock. He looked and played like an NBA veteran against NBA players of Miami.

Can't wait for the rematch with the University of National Cheaters.

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 10:39 AM
Hmm, you and sagegrouse may be very well be right - Quinn might have been our 2nd best player. But, I thought he was throroughly schooled in the head-to-head comparison, numbers aside. And, I recall being dismayed with the shot selection (especially from a PG) even when he did hit. It's not that big of a deal - some games are good, some are bad, some opponents are stellar, and some aren't.
What did actually bother me, though was the "likes the big moment and games" bit (which I 100% agree with). I thought it was unfathomable that he would turn to face the crowd, beat his chest, scream, etc as if "I'm the best in the world!" after his big plays despite routinely getting waxed. In fairness, he also postured considerably when he was beaten...just in a "I'm the worst in the world!" way :D
I wish the coaching staff (as passionate as any player) would carry themselves like that just once to show players what they look like - I think it would be hilarious.

The positive take-home is: Ryan exhibited maturity and character despite owning that game (I feel like he beat Miami AND Duke to win this one! ;) ). He was upbeat, positive, lethal, and in control - he played like a Champion.
Larkin is better than Quinn at this point. He is a better athlete and stronger overall. He did school Quinn at the times but Quinn hung in there- he is really a Freshman in terms of game experience as he was never 100% last year. Quinn, however, is not far behind- and he may be a more consistent shooter. Quinn does pout a lot- not what I like to see but he does not tend to overplay after a mistake and compound the error. Quinn plays with passion and will get better and more mature. His improvement this season is a huge reason that Duke has 25 wins. With Ryan as a threat - the floor will open up and he and Rasheed should be able to pass better.

Papa John
03-03-2013, 10:44 AM
I was going to ask about this. There were several instances where Duke defenders were screened by Miami bigs who were moving. I remember Tyler being screened by a moving big in the first half and the Miami guard hit a 3. I was screaming at the TV.

I don't know why the refs weren't calling it, unless the Duke guards weren't making much contact with the screeners.

I thought we also got away with a few moving screens (Kelly in particular had a tendency to move laterally early on when setting high screens, and could have been whistled for it at least twice), so it was a wash.



On another note, did anyone else jump out of their seat with 7:40 left in the second, right after we pushed out to a 4 point lead, when Larkin had a clear lane to the hoop and Mason finally FINALLY zipped over and swatted the shot? It was a big moment.

Though I didn't jump out of my seat (for fear of waking the baby), I did quietly give thanks for the cessation of Mason's swinging door defense of the lane. It's amazing what happens when you actually stop the ball and contest the shot...

MChambers
03-03-2013, 10:52 AM
I thought we also got away with a few moving screens (Kelly in particular had a tendency to move laterally early on when setting high screens, and could have been whistled for it at least twice), so it was a wash.
That makes sense. I didn't see Ryan do this, but I did have my Duke Blue glasses on, so I may have missed it.

I do think not calling those screens helped the Miami guards getting the lane, where they were so effective. The announcers, however, insisted on attributing it to amazing one-on-one play, rather than teamwork.

Duke did a better job on those screens in the second half. Seemed that the bigs, especially Ryan, started hedging earlier.

Barr8
03-03-2013, 12:05 PM
Great win. A win against a legitimate top five team is huge, doesn't matter how you win. As long as Duke doesn't slip up in the next two games and makes it to the ACC championship game, I don't see why they won't have a good chance at a number one seed.


As far as the rebounding...

Quinn is a decent rebounder for his size, a sneaky rebounder if you will. He may not be the best leaper(I'd argue he isn't a bad leaper either) Quinn is a determined rebounder.

Seth is a below average rebounder.. Due to injury? Maybe. I don't see there being any improvement with him. What we gain in offensive power, we lose in rebounding(May. Be nitpicking but since his injury his defense has taken a couple steps back).

Rasheed is a good/quick leaper, and does a decent job getting boards for a freshman. I think we will see his RPG go up next year....


My real complaint about rebounding is the lack of boxing out, and the effort. It seems like a lot of the time people are just standing around watching Mason. Maybe it's in the game plan not to crash the boards? Crashing boards can lead to fastbreak opportunities or unset defenses.

wk2109
03-03-2013, 12:07 PM
Duke did a better job on those screens in the second half. Seemed that the bigs, especially Ryan, started hedging earlier.

The guards also went under the screens in the second half rather than over them. Miami's guards didn't really shoot jumpers to try to make Duke pay. Perhaps that's the golden key to defending Miami.

devildeac
03-03-2013, 12:33 PM
I'll put this in a couple places so no one misses it:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/kelly-s...ages/12175963/

CDu
03-03-2013, 12:41 PM
The guards also went under the screens in the second half rather than over them. Miami's guards didn't really shoot jumpers to try to make Duke pay. Perhaps that's the golden key to defending Miami.

Yeah, that's a big point. The keys to defending high ball screens is the hedge and recover (big man's responsibility), and either coming over or under the high ball screen (guard's responsibility).

If you choose to go over the screen, it puts much more pressure on the big man to hedge well. If the big man doesn't hedge well, the ballhandler can attack the rim and create 2-on-1 opportunities (think Evans at UVa; Larkin in the first half). If the big man hedges too far, the ballhandler can slip under the hedge and have a clear path situation.

If you go under the screen, you can prevent dribble penetration. If the big man doesn't hedge well, the ballhandler can have an open 3 pointer.

We've generally gone over the screens this year. We've also not had good hedge work by Mason for much of this year (he's generally chosen to stay closer to the basket). That led to lots of drives by Evans, and lots of open shots for Harris. In the Miami game, our hedging was MUCH better and we went under screens. Against teams with poor shooters (read: not UNC), I'd like to see more going under the screens.

Kedsy
03-03-2013, 12:53 PM
Seth is a below average rebounder.. Due to injury? Maybe. I don't see there being any improvement with him. What we gain in offensive power, we lose in rebounding.

Sorry, but this isn't close to true. Seth's our best shooter (no offense to Ryan, who obviously is also pretty good) and his offense is absolutely crucial to Duke. His rebounding? I agree it's not good, but he averages 2.3 rebounds per game, while a pretty good rebounding guard might average 4.3? That would give him half a rebound per game more than Quinn and a full rebound per game more than Rasheed, and more rebounds per game than any of Miami's guards.

So, two extra rebounds per game vs. 17 points per game -- frankly it's no contest. We gain WAY more with Seth's offensive prowess than we lose with his rebounding deficiencies.

Barr8
03-03-2013, 01:17 PM
Sorry, but this isn't close to true. Seth's our best shooter (no offense to Ryan, who obviously is also pretty good) and his offense is absolutely crucial to Duke. His rebounding? I agree it's not good, but he averages 2.3 rebounds per game, while a pretty good rebounding guard might average 4.3? That would give him half a rebound per game more than Quinn and a full rebound per game more than Rasheed, and more rebounds per game than any of Miami's guards.

So, two extra rebounds per game vs. 17 points per game -- frankly it's no contest. We gain WAY more with Seth's offensive prowess than we lose with his rebounding deficiencies.

I'm not sure what I said is absolutely not true? Maybe my pointy came off the wrong way? I was in no way hinting at trading a better rebounder with less offensive power. Duke absolutely needs Seth night in and night out. My point was what you lose in rebounding you gain in offense. Seth is Dukes best offensive player(no offense to Mason, or Ryan).

Just was stating he is a below average rebounder, one of the worst rebounders per minute in the ACC(who averages starter minutes). I believe Scott Wood is close(he's a good four inches taller too).

I love Seth and believe he's key, his shooting can carry the team through in average night.

Kedsy
03-03-2013, 01:34 PM
I don't see there being any improvement with him. What we gain in offensive power, we lose in rebounding.


My point was what you lose in rebounding you gain in offense.

OK. I'd only point out (a) your original statement looks like the inverse of your second statement, suggesting that the loss in rebounding wipes out any gain in offensive power. If that's not what you meant then we're closer to agreement; and (b) my point was we lose only a little in rebounding and gain a whole lot in offense, so I don't really agree with your second statement, either.

Put another way, I interpreted your first post to mean you thought the team isn't improved with Seth in the game because he's a poor rebounder. If that's not what you were saying, then the rest of our differences are pretty inconsequential.

Sandman
03-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Sorry if this was covered in the in-game thread, which I haven't read. And I am not bringing this up in order to be negative. I am absolutely thrilled with the win tonight, and Ryan Kelly's performance was one for the ages. No doubt about it.

But:

Has anyone heard, or can anyone come up with, a legitimate explanation for why Mason Plumlee was handling the ball in the backcourt against Miami pressure in the last two minutes? Repeatedly. Look: for starters, Ryan Kelly is a much better and much more instinctive passer than is Mason Plumlee. He should be inbounding the ball in the first place. Moreover, if Duke's strategy is that the man who receives the first pass is, upon being trapped, going to pass it back to the man who inbounded, then why on earth would you want Mason to be that inbounder, when he's almost certain to get fouled as soon as he receives that return pass? Why wouldn't you want Kelly to be the guy getting fouled and going to the line? Why?

If you really want Mason to inbound the ball for some reason, after doing so he should run straight to the front court and just get away from the ball. I know his free throw shooting has improved a lot this year, but the guys handling the ball in pressured, end-of-game situations for this team should be Kelly, Cook, and Curry. Not Mason Plumlee. Those three are our best ballhandlers and our best free throwers. I know Mason hit a few free throws, but he missed a few too, and then overthrew that pass-ahead to Seth -- a pass I don't think I've ever seen him attempt before. Not the time to be trying out new stuff, know what I mean?

I believe that if we had Kelly, Cook (and I know he stepped out of bounds for the turnover; I know), and Curry primarily handling the ball in the last two minutes against pressure, that nine point lead doesn't evaporate like that. Anyone want to enlighten me as to what K might have been thinking in handling the pressure with Mason Plumlee so integral to the plan?

Maybe because Kelly had been out for 13 games and had no real practice time since his return.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 01:41 PM
I mean, Kelly dumped a 5-gallon jug of jet fuel on the Canes and lit the match.

Another one to add to the awesome string of quotes that this game has produced.

tommy
03-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Maybe because Kelly had been out for 13 games and had no real practice time since his return.

I don't buy that at all. Dude had just played 32 minutes of outstanding basketball against a top flight opponent. With no apparent ill effects from the layoff. You're telling me he was too rusty to throw an inbounds pass? Sorry. Does not compute.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 01:56 PM
I don't buy that at all. Dude had just played 32 minutes of outstanding basketball against a top flight opponent. With no apparent ill effects from the layoff. You're telling me he was too rusty to throw an inbounds pass? Sorry. Does not compute.

Coach K didn't want kelly to play thursday because he hadn't practiced. I can understand if they wanted mason to take the inbounds since they hadn't practiced that with kelly yet. Until they run some inbounds sets with kelly in practice, it makes plenty of sense to keep doing it the way they've been doing.

I'm sure at some point they'll practice him inbounding, and we'll see it in games.

Kfanarmy
03-03-2013, 01:58 PM
What an awesome win! I really thought Duke would have to be extraordinary given the late Thursday- primtime Saturday turnaround against a senior-laden exceptional team with an extra day of prep. RK made the difference surely, but I think a lot of posters could do well to remember that Duke's other starters were, from a physical not mental standpoint, disadvantaged by the schedule. My gut wants me to believe that if the two teams had been on the same schedule, RKs performance would have yielded a blow out.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 02:03 PM
What an awesome win! I really thought Duke would have to be extraordinary given the late Thursday- primtime Saturday turnaround against a senior-laden exceptional team with an extra day of prep. RK made the difference surely, but I think a lot of posters could do well to remember that Duke's other starters were, from a physical not mental standpoint, disadvantaged by the schedule. My gut wants me to believe that if the two teams had been on the same schedule, RKs performance would have yielded a blow out.

to be fair, if we hit our freethrows and eliminated a few of the really silly turnovers (a few by king sulaimon at the beginning, mason at the end), it probably would have been a blowout

it's those little things that can cost you a game when you're not knocking down threes like we did last night.

but yes, I agree, this team has played a whale of a schedule...and i'm sure they will enjoy the 5 days "off" between UNC and ACCs....(knock on wood we finish top 4....)

Neals384
03-03-2013, 02:03 PM
Nice to see Warren Sapp and the Miami thug contingent sent packing last night. It seems like Miami always has a certain element about them dating all the way back to the late 80's and early 90's football team.

As a 49ers fan, I have to say - that is one of the best things about beating the Hurricanes. It may be ancient history, but I vividly remember Sapp's dirty play costing Jerry Rice most of a season in 1997. From wikipedia:

"During the 49ers' opening game of the 1997 season, he tore the anterior cruciate and medial collateral ligaments in his left knee on a reverse. Warren Sapp of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers grabbed Rice by the face-mask and wrenched him to the ground with it, drawing a 15-yard personal foul."

Sapp had no legitimate shot at tackling Rice, but he was able to get one hand on his facemask. Instead of letting go, he hung on - hard. Rice was at full speed going cross-field, creating the torque needed to blow out his knee.

slower
03-03-2013, 02:06 PM
What an awesome win! I really thought Duke would have to be extraordinary given the late Thursday- primtime Saturday turnaround against a senior-laden exceptional team with an extra day of prep. RK made the difference surely, but I think a lot of posters could do well to remember that Duke's other starters were, from a physical not mental standpoint, disadvantaged by the schedule. My gut wants me to believe that if the two teams had been on the same schedule, RKs performance would have yielded a blow out.

Not sure that everybody would agree with that. I'd be just as inclined to say that a merely average performance from Ryan would have led to a blowout by Miami. You can make an argument either way.

DukieInBrasil
03-03-2013, 02:21 PM
to be fair, if we hit our freethrows and eliminated a few of the really silly turnovers (a few by king sulaimon at the beginning, mason at the end), it probably would have been a blowout

it's those little things that can cost you a game when you're not knocking down threes like we did last night.

but yes, I agree, this team has played a whale of a schedule...and i'm sure they will enjoy the 5 days "off" between UNC and ACCs....(knock on wood we finish top 4....)

Sulaimon's hilariously bad turnovers combined with 2 really poor turns by Quinn gave away 6 Duke possessions. If we score on half of those (slightly below our FG% and well below our eFG% for the night) we get 6 extra points. If our normally reliable FT shooters Sulaimon and Curry go 2-3 and 4-5 (both below their season FT%) rather than 1-3 and 2-5, that's an additional 3 points. Game management at the end would have been very different up by an additional 9 points.
Anyway, turns happen FTs get missed, but if those plays represent a departure from the mean and we find ourselves in a similar game where we make unexpectedly more FTs than our % would indicate and fewer turns than normal, i think we'd be pleased. However, in-game situational pressure led to alot of those miscues, which indicate they would probably happen again in a tight situation. I hope not.

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 02:30 PM
Not sure that everybody would agree with that. I'd be just as inclined to say that a merely average performance from Ryan would have led to a blowout by Miami. You can make an argument either way.

Not so sure- an average performance by Seth and Rasheed would have probably made it just as close. Yes Kelly was amazing but he a number of wide open looks as they guarded the other guys very tough.

1999ballboy
03-03-2013, 02:40 PM
Is it safe to say that Durand Scott is Hansbrough's closest rival in the category of uncalled travels? I think so.

Obviously the White Raven was brilliant. Quinn had a good game. I can't wait for the rest of the team to really come together again around Ryan. It WILL happen, but I'd hate to think about what last night's game might have been like without him.

tommy
03-03-2013, 02:41 PM
Coach K didn't want kelly to play thursday because he hadn't practiced. I can understand if they wanted mason to take the inbounds since they hadn't practiced that with kelly yet. Until they run some inbounds sets with kelly in practice, it makes plenty of sense to keep doing it the way they've been doing.

I'm sure at some point they'll practice him inbounding, and we'll see it in games.

WADR, I think you're overthinking this. Ryan Kelly has been throwing inbounds passes his whole life, and has been a primary inbounds passer at Duke for three years. He knows how to do it. It's not complicated. All that was happening was an inbounds pass followed by a return pass to the original inbound passer, who then takes a foul. Ryan was perfectly capable of doing that given how seamlessly he had been re-integrated into every other aspect of the game. Why you'd choose to put a 66% FT shooter on the line instead of a 77% shooter, especially when the better shooter is a far, far better dribbler, ballhandler, and passer? I'd like to hear K address the question, but I'm not holding my breath.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 02:44 PM
WADR, I think you're overthinking this. Ryan Kelly has been throwing inbounds passes his whole life, and has been a primary inbounds passer at Duke for three years. He knows how to do it. It's not complicated. All that was happening was an inbounds pass followed by a return pass to the original inbound passer, who then takes a foul. Ryan was perfectly capable of doing that given how seamlessly he had been re-integrated into every other aspect of the game. Why you'd choose to put a 66% FT shooter on the line instead of a 77% shooter, especially when the better shooter is a far, far better dribbler, ballhandler, and passer? I'd like to hear K address the question, but I'm not holding my breath.

he also was perfectly capable of playing on thursday in our loss to UVA and he didn't. Ryan practiced for about 20 minutes...mason has been inbounding for 2 months now....it's not about ryan being able to pass the ball....it's about flipping the entire inbounds set to have mason on the floor instead of on the sideline without practicing it.

Barr8
03-03-2013, 02:58 PM
OK. I'd only point out (a) your original statement looks like the inverse of your second statement, suggesting that the loss in rebounding wipes out any gain in offensive power. If that's not what you meant then we're closer to agreement; and (b) my point was we lose only a little in rebounding and gain a whole lot in offense, so I don't really agree with your second statement, either.

Put another way, I interpreted your first post to mean you thought the team isn't improved with Seth in the game because he's a poor rebounder. If that's not what you were saying, then the rest of our differences are pretty inconsequential.

I see the confusion now. That original statement was meaning Seth's rebounding wont improve. I will work on wording things a little clearer.

1 24 90
03-03-2013, 03:07 PM
to be fair, if we hit our freethrows and eliminated a few of the really silly turnovers (a few by king sulaimon at the beginning, mason at the end), it probably would have been a blowout

it's those little things that can cost you a game when you're not knocking down threes like we did last night.

but yes, I agree, this team has played a whale of a schedule...and i'm sure they will enjoy the 5 days "off" between UNC and ACCs....(knock on wood we finish top 4....)

Hasn't Duke already clinched Top 4 since NCSU has 6 losses and Duke gets the tiebreak since they beat Miami once? I think I read this/heard this somewhere. Anyway, beat Va Tech and it definitely is clinched.

slower
03-03-2013, 03:10 PM
Not so sure- an average performance by Seth and Rasheed would have probably made it just as close. Yes Kelly was amazing but he a number of wide open looks as they guarded the other guys very tough.

Also a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Anything COULD have happened. I know that a lot of us want to believe that it could/should have been a blowout, but I'm just not buying it. Miami's a very good team, and we hung on just barely enough to beat them. Yes, our end-game execution stunk, and maybe we SHOULD have won by ten points. So, those are positives. And if we meet Miami again in the ACC tournament, we could beat them. And they could beat us. I just don't think people should EXPECT to beat them if we meet again. It could reasonably go either way.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 03:21 PM
Hasn't Duke already clinched Top 4 since NCSU has 6 losses and Duke gets the tiebreak since they beat Miami once? I think I read this/heard this somewhere. Anyway, beat Va Tech and it definitely is clinched.

that sounds right...i didn't go digging through the tiebreak procedures (since the last time i did I realized they were horribly ambiguous), but yeah, I think you go down the rankings and take the record against tte best team, next best team (etc)

so of all the teams that could finish 12-, only duke has the victory....

so the only team that would have the tiebreak over us is UVA,

also of note: even if miami lost their last two, and we won out, miami would have the tiebreaker due to their win over uva or NCSU should they end up with a better record), but we would be co-regular season champions (if i'm not mistaken, tiebreakers are only used for the purposes of seeding)

also also of note, uva would have the tiebreaker over UNC

anyway, if we win on tuesday, we have locked in the 2/3 side of the bracket


so lets see if we can hammer this out:

we get the 2 seed if:
we win out or
we win 1 and UVA loses one of their last three or
we lose out, UNC loses on wednesday, and UVA loses 2 of their last three

we get the 4 seed if:
we lose out and UNC wins out and uva wins 2 of their last 3 games

we get the 3 seed in all other cases

pfrduke
03-03-2013, 03:28 PM
that sounds right...i didn't go digging through the tiebreak procedures (since the last time i did I realized they were horribly ambiguous), but yeah, I think you go down the rankings and take the record against tte best team, next best team (etc)

so of all the teams that could finish 12-, only duke has the victory....

so the only team that would have the tiebreak over us is UVA,

also of note: even if miami lost their last two, and we won out, miami would have the tiebreaker due to their win over uva or NCSU should they end up with a better record), but we would be co-regular season champions (if i'm not mistaken, tiebreakers are only used for the purposes of seeding)

also also of note, uva would have the tiebreaker over UNC

anyway, if we win on tuesday, we have locked in the 2/3 side of the bracket


so lets see if we can hammer this out:

we get the 2 seed if:
we win out or
we win 1 and UVA loses one of their last three or
we lose out, UNC loses on wednesday, and UVA loses 2 of their last three

we get the 4 seed if:
we lose out and UNC wins out and uva wins 2 of their last 3 games

we get the 3 seed in all other cases

I think (although am not certain) that we would lose a 3-way tiebreak with UNC and UVA if we all end up 13-5 (assuming that we get there by beating Virginia Tech and losing @ UNC). In 3-way head-to-head, Virginia would be 2-1, UNC 2-2, and Duke 1-2. We would win a tiebreak with UNC only by virtue of the Miami win. We would lose a tiebreak with Virginia only.

pfrduke
03-03-2013, 03:42 PM
I think (although am not certain) that we would lose a 3-way tiebreak with UNC and UVA if we all end up 13-5 (assuming that we get there by beating Virginia Tech and losing @ UNC). In 3-way head-to-head, Virginia would be 2-1, UNC 2-2, and Duke 1-2. We would win a tiebreak with UNC only by virtue of the Miami win. We would lose a tiebreak with Virginia only.

There are not that many scenarios, so it may be easiest to walk through them all (all of this assumes UVA beats BC, which certainly is not a guarantee):

Duke beats VT, UNC (14-4)

Duke gets 2-seed, regardless of other results


Duke beats VT, loses to UNC (13-5)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses at least one game (12-6 or 11-7, we win 13-5 tiebreak with UNC)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5, wins a two-way tiebreak with us) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6)


Duke gets 4-seed if:

Virginia and UNC win out (13-5; we are 3rd in a 3-way tiebreak)



Duke loses to VT, beats UNC (13-5)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses at least one game (12-6 or 11-7; UNC would be 12-6 or 11-7)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5 - wins tiebreak)


Duke cannot be 4-seed (UNC would have 6 losses)


Duke loses out (12-6)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses out (11-7) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6 - we win tiebreak)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6 - we win tiebreak)


Duke gets 4-seed if:

Virginia and UNC win out (both 13-5) or
Virginia wins only 1 game and UNC loses at Maryland (both 12-6, we are 3rd in a three-way tiebreak)

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 03:48 PM
Also a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Anything COULD have happened. I know that a lot of us want to believe that it could/should have been a blowout, but I'm just not buying it. Miami's a very good team, and we hung on just barely enough to beat them. Yes, our end-game execution stunk, and maybe we SHOULD have won by ten points. So, those are positives. And if we meet Miami again in the ACC tournament, we could beat them. And they could beat us. I just don't think people should EXPECT to beat them if we meet again. It could reasonably go either way.

But this seems to be the case with any top 15 team we play from here on out. It will all come down to late game execution. We are built for doing well at the end of games (assuming we don't do dumb things)- with Curry, Kelly and Cook being good three point shooters and good free throw shooters. Against good teams- it can aways go either way. In 2000-2001- Maryland played Duke very tough- wins could have easily been losses. It is that time of year.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 03:57 PM
I think (although am not certain) that we would lose a 3-way tiebreak with UNC and UVA if we all end up 13-5 (assuming that we get there by beating Virginia Tech and losing @ UNC). In 3-way head-to-head, Virginia would be 2-1, UNC 2-2, and Duke 1-2. We would win a tiebreak with UNC only by virtue of the Miami win. We would lose a tiebreak with Virginia only.

good call.

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 04:03 PM
There are not that many scenarios, so it may be easiest to walk through them all (all of this assumes UVA beats BC, which certainly is not a guarantee):

Duke beats VT, UNC (14-4)

Duke gets 2-seed, regardless of other results


Duke beats VT, loses to UNC (13-5)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses at least one game (12-6 or 11-7, we win 13-5 tiebreak with UNC)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5, wins a two-way tiebreak with us) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6)


Duke gets 4-seed if:

Virginia and UNC win out (13-5; we are 3rd in a 3-way tiebreak)



Duke loses to VT, beats UNC (13-5)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses at least one game (12-6 or 11-7; UNC would be 12-6 or 11-7)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5 - wins tiebreak)


Duke cannot be 4-seed (UNC would have 6 losses)


Duke loses out (12-6)

Duke gets 2-seed if:

Virginia loses out (11-7) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6 - we win tiebreak)


Duke gets 3-seed if:

Virginia wins out (13-5) and
UNC loses at Maryland (12-6 - we win tiebreak)


Duke gets 4-seed if:

Virginia and UNC win out (both 13-5) or
Virginia wins only 1 game and UNC loses at Maryland (both 12-6, we are 3rd in a three-way tiebreak)


BC is hanging tough with UVa. Down only 1 at the half

slower
03-03-2013, 04:08 PM
But this seems to be the case with any top 15 team we play from here on out. It will all come down to late game execution. We are built for doing well at the end of games (assuming we don't do dumb things)- with Curry, Kelly and Cook being good three point shooters and good free throw shooters. Against good teams- it can aways go either way. In 2000-2001- Maryland played Duke very tough- wins could have easily been losses. It is that time of year.

Yes, and I agree with you 100%.

My issue is that, before EVERY game, there are seemingly legions of people predicting double-digit victories. No matter WHAT happened last game or what troubling patterns have emerged, there are always the optimists who think we're going to just have our way with almost any other team. And that's just not the case. As you say, with any Top 15 team, anything can happen. This year, it can seemingly happen with any Top 25 or even Top 40 team.

That's ALL I'm trying to say. Almost anything can happen in almost any game. We could very easily lose to UNC next week.

sporthenry
03-03-2013, 04:53 PM
MSU just had all 5 do the floor slap, then proceeded to give up a lay up to Trey Burke. Then Michigan starts slapping the floor. Has this move really jumped the shark.

Most disappointed part of the slap was they didn't stop Miami after it. I also may be misremembering Wojo but didn't he used to do it when the game was still in doubt. Last night, they did it when the game was already pretty much decided.

Papa John
03-03-2013, 05:34 PM
MSU just had all 5 do the floor slap, then proceeded to give up a lay up to Trey Burke. Then Michigan starts slapping the floor. Has this move really jumped the shark.

Most disappointed part of the slap was they didn't stop Miami after it. I also may be misremembering Wojo but didn't he used to do it when the game was still in doubt. Last night, they did it when the game was already pretty much decided.

But I do recall that Amaker used to lead the team in the floor-slap at a critical juncture, when we needed a stop and the outcome was still very much up in the air. I recall the same being true of Hurley, Wojo, and a number of others... It seems kind of silly to floor-slap when the outcome is decided, like an overused cliche.

El_Diablo
03-03-2013, 05:39 PM
MSU just had all 5 do the floor slap, then proceeded to give up a lay up to Trey Burke. Then Michigan starts slapping the floor. Has this move really jumped the shark.

Most disappointed part of the slap was they didn't stop Miami after it. I also may be misremembering Wojo but didn't he used to do it when the game was still in doubt. Last night, they did it when the game was already pretty much decided.


But I do recall that Amaker used to lead the team in the floor-slap at a critical juncture, when we needed a stop and the outcome was still very much up in the air. I recall the same being true of Hurley, Wojo, and a number of others... It seems kind of silly to floor-slap when the outcome is decided, like an overused cliche.

Yes to both. Same thing with the "Our House" chant.

uh_no
03-03-2013, 05:41 PM
Yes. Same thing with the "Our House" chant.

it's become part of winning at cameron. times change.

Greg_Newton
03-03-2013, 05:45 PM
MSU just had all 5 do the floor slap, then proceeded to give up a lay up to Trey Burke. Then Michigan starts slapping the floor. Has this move really jumped the shark.

Most disappointed part of the slap was they didn't stop Miami after it. I also may be misremembering Wojo but didn't he used to do it when the game was still in doubt. Last night, they did it when the game was already pretty much decided.

Well, last night was a little different, given the history. It was more of a statement than anything.

I actually thought we had a pretty good defensive possession after the slap, though - McKinney-Jones was fumbling and bumbling his way to the ground before he got bailed out by what looked like a terrible reach-in call on Kelly.

The next few possessions, of course, were a different story...

sporthenry
03-03-2013, 05:51 PM
Well, last night was a little different, given the history. It was more of a statement than anything.

I actually thought we had a pretty good defensive possession after the slap, though - McKinney-Jones was fumbling and bumbling his way to the ground before he got bailed out by what looked like a terrible reach-in call on Kelly.

The next few possessions, of course, were a different story...

Fair enough. It wasn't terrible but still would didn't seem as strong as the ones before. I completely understand last nights display, it was more bemoaning the fact that these 2 teams were doing it. For one, it isn't really a team thing and only a few guys have probably earned the right to do it.

I wish Duke did it more but they really haven't had that Wojo type lock down defender to do it, so I respect them not doing it. Like if Aaron Craft did it, as much as some dislike him here, I could see that b/c he plays that high intensity in your face defense. But then if he proceeded to get burned by Burke, he'd look foolish.

BD80
03-03-2013, 06:42 PM
Coach K said Kelly's performance was "one for the ages"

Considering my level of enjoyment of the game, I'd say it was "one for the aged"

dukelifer
03-03-2013, 06:43 PM
Yes, and I agree with you 100%.

My issue is that, before EVERY game, there are seemingly legions of people predicting double-digit victories. No matter WHAT happened last game or what troubling patterns have emerged, there are always the optimists who think we're going to just have our way with almost any other team. And that's just not the case. As you say, with any Top 15 team, anything can happen. This year, it can seemingly happen with any Top 25 or even Top 40 team.

That's ALL I'm trying to say. Almost anything can happen in almost any game. We could very easily lose to UNC next week.

I have also never understood this. You look at the NCAA tourney and most of the games are just a few possessions apart. UNC-Duke games are usually tight regardless of the rankings. Here are a few of the close ones in the past 13 years.


February 3, 2000: #3 Duke 90, North Carolina 86 (OT)
February 1, 2001: #4 North Carolina 85, #2 Duke 83
March 9, 2003: North Carolina 82, #10 Duke 79
February 4, 2004: #1 Duke 83, #17 North Carolina 81 (OT)
February 9, 2005: #7 Duke 71, #2 North Carolina 70
March 6, 2005: #2 North Carolina 75, #6 Duke 73
March 4, 2006: #13 North Carolina 83, #1 Duke 76
March 8, 2009: #2 North Carolina 79, #7 Duke 72
February 9, 2011: #5 Duke 79, #20 North Carolina 73
February 8, 2012: #10 Duke 85, #5 North Carolina 84

PSurprise
03-03-2013, 07:22 PM
I have also never understood this. You look at the NCAA tourney and most of the games are just a few possessions apart. UNC-Duke games are usually tight regardless of the rankings. Here are a few of the close ones in the past 13 years.


February 3, 2000: #3 Duke 90, North Carolina 86 (OT)
February 1, 2001: #4 North Carolina 85, #2 Duke 83
March 9, 2003: North Carolina 82, #10 Duke 79
February 4, 2004: #1 Duke 83, #17 North Carolina 81 (OT)
February 9, 2005: #7 Duke 71, #2 North Carolina 70
March 6, 2005: #2 North Carolina 75, #6 Duke 73
March 4, 2006: #13 North Carolina 83, #1 Duke 76
March 8, 2009: #2 North Carolina 79, #7 Duke 72
February 9, 2011: #5 Duke 79, #20 North Carolina 73
February 8, 2012: #10 Duke 85, #5 North Carolina 84

March 6, 2010: #4 Duke 82, North Carolina 50 :)

uh_no
03-03-2013, 07:32 PM
March 6, 2010: #4 Duke 82, North Carolina 50 :)

and hubert davis picked UNC.

Troublemaker
03-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Yes, and I agree with you 100%.

My issue is that, before EVERY game, there are seemingly legions of people predicting double-digit victories. No matter WHAT happened last game or what troubling patterns have emerged, there are always the optimists who think we're going to just have our way with almost any other team. And that's just not the case. As you say, with any Top 15 team, anything can happen. This year, it can seemingly happen with any Top 25 or even Top 40 team.

That's ALL I'm trying to say. Almost anything can happen in almost any game. We could very easily lose to UNC next week.

We're going to murder UNC :-)

But we'll discuss that more after Senior Night is done with.

1 24 90
03-03-2013, 10:01 PM
Dick Vitale game of the week rerun is on ESPNU right now. Relive the Kelly magic.

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:01 PM
The WHITE RAVEN is back!

Turns out-- there really is such a thing-- at least, there is such a thing as a White-Necked Raven-- it lives in Africa, and has kind of a white collar around its neck-- but only on the back... guess that's why Kelly has that dark beard (in the front only).

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:07 PM
Dickie V got Warren Sapp into the game? Also, Doris sounded a little hurt about doing the interview with Ryan.

Ryan was outstanding and makes us a different team. I am so glad he is back. I fear no teams at this point.

You've said this twice now-- to what are you referring? It looked like a normal interview, and Doris Burke is the farthest thing from somebody who has it in for Duke... you seemed to be one of those conspiracy theorists who think every analyst that doesn't constantly worship at the altar of Duke is somehow against Duke-- to the point where you actually seemed to imply that Jay Bilas doesn't like Duke-- this is ridiculous-- next you'll decide that Jason Williams doesn't like Duke-- get a grip, Dude.

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:13 PM
If you're implying that this game raised Duke a level above the other contenders, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.

A great, legendary individual performance that just barely offset the sub-par performances of others.

I don't know what is going on with Mason, but NBA execs have to be revising their draft charts.

What game were you watching? Mason was never as good as people on this board were saying, but he was far from having a bad game against Miami-- in fact, in the second half, he showed a better ability to operate starting further from the basket, and also showed the ability to score with a variety of different shots-- and against very good low-post defenders, so I think, if anything, he helped himself with the NBA with this game-- and no, I don't necessarily think Duke gets "humiliated" unless Kelly goes for 36... it's likely that somebody else steps up and takes/makes more shots (but maybe not enough to win), if Kelly isn't going off like he was... it's too facile to assume Duke gets blown out in this game, without 36 from Kelly... you've got to account for the energy of the crowd helping to keep Duke in it, even without Kelly, vs. what happened in Miami (when the crowd was just as animated-- and helping the opponent).

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:15 PM
I am convinced that we just beat one of the best teams in college right now.

Miami is freakin good. They are going to make a run in the tourney.

We finally started to stop the penetration around the 10 minute mark of the second half, which made a huge difference and gave us our extended lead.

Cook made some tough plays in the 2nd half after a bad 1st half. Rasheed made two great scoring plays in spite everything else that went wrong for him. Tough kid.

Two subpar games for Curry against Miami. I think it's just a bad match up for him (although he did have three shots just barely rim out).

Despite a bad game in many ways, Mason actually had some really nice post moves/buckets in the second half.

We should have a nice/fun win on Senior Night with good momentum going into the UNC game.

Wooof! (or if you prefer, Weauxf!)

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:24 PM
Also made a great defensive play right after those points that forced a missed shot. Then Quinn hit a three that I thought put the game away, but not quite.

Weird how our free throw shooting goes from 90% (18-20) on the road at UVA to 62% (16-26) at home tonight. Knocking down a few more at the end would have helped me breath a little easier (or at all)

Even weirder-- what are the chances that the only two missed free throws aainst UVa (in a game where Mason shot a good number) were missed by Seth Curry-- and then he went and missed some big ones again tonight-- it seems odd to me that, as good as Curry is at the line, he seems to struggle at key moments (and has, off and on for 3 years)-- his misses always seem memorable to me, not because they are few in number (he's actually dropped down a fair amount on his percentage this year), but because they always seem to happen with the game still on the line, as opposed to when Duke is blowing someone out. Vitale likes to say "Count 'em, put 'em in the book", but yet when Curry has gone to the line in key situations (this year especially), I'd be willing to bet he is a more pedestrian 70-75% shooter, rather than the 80-85% he is for this season-- or the near 90+% shooter that Trajan Langdon and JJ Redick were... 75% ain't bad-- but it's certainly no Langdon or Redick.

Kfanarmy
03-03-2013, 11:33 PM
Not sure that everybody would agree with that. I'd be just as inclined to say that a merely average performance from Ryan would have led to a blowout by Miami. You can make an argument either way. You may be right, but I don't often envision Duke being blown out. :)

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:36 PM
I honestly think that Miami is the best team we have played this year. Terrific execution, great point guard, outstanding rebounding, superb defense. When they are focused, it will be hard for anyone to beat them on a neutral court.

Duke played a gutty game tonight. One might think that Ryan's return to the lineup would lead to a struggling, limited performance by Ryan. Amazingly, it was the rest of the team that seemed to struggle as Duke reverted to it's high-low offense which had worked earlier in the year. Hopefully a few days of normal rest and normal practice will fine tune the rest of the team.

How did virtually every big-time coach in America miss this kid Larkin-- ...who even recruited him? His dad came from a whole family of great athletes, is a MLB HOF shortstop-- and was one of the best defensive back recruits ever for Univ. of Michigan, before he gave football up for baseball... so it isn't like you couldn't have maybe predicted that the kid would be a great athlete... and how about the rest of these guys: Scott, Kadji, Johnson-- all should have been higher recruited (or better used, in Kadji's case)... how does nobody know about Larkin, until he is making Quinn Cook (DeMatha and Oak Hill) look silly on defense, any time he wants? I guess it's like people (OK- Seth Greenberg) not recruiting first Stephon Curry, and then, compounding it by not recruiting Seth Curry, when their Dad was as good as or better than Johnny Dawkins and Mark Alarie, when he was at VPI.

greybeard
03-03-2013, 11:46 PM
What game were you watching? Mason was never as good as people on this board were saying, but he was far from having a bad game against Miami-- in fact, in the second half, he showed a better ability to operate starting further from the basket, and also showed the ability to score with a variety of different shots-- and against very good low-post defenders, so I think, if anything, he helped himself with the NBA with this game-- and no, I don't necessarily think Duke gets "humiliated" unless Kelly goes for 36... it's likely that somebody else steps up and takes/makes more shots (but maybe not enough to win), if Kelly isn't going off like he was... it's too facile to assume Duke gets blown out in this game, without 36 from Kelly... you've got to account for the energy of the crowd helping to keep Duke in it, even without Kelly, vs. what happened in Miami (when the crowd was just as animated-- and helping the opponent).

I think Larranaga gamed to shut down Curry, which they did, bang Mason which they did but didn't (Johnson got called early on two of the type fouls UVa had gotten away with and could not do what UVa got away with), and make Cook make plays, which he did. Larranaga, I believe, believed that Duke could not win unless Curry got off, and went all in in the second half, refraining from sneding help on Ryan. Who would have thought that Ryan could keep it up in the second half. Larranaga, that's who. No matter what he said afterwards, actions speack louder than words and Ryan drew no second defenders.

No one can say how Curry might have hurt them if they did not game to stop him. Why do I say game to stop him, where's the evidence. Ryan continually got wide open looks throughout each half. My guess is that if they had gone to plan B and tried to shut down Ryan, Curry would have killed them. Not the way Ryan killed them, who could no that, but he might well have taken some of the starch out of Harris and the other guy. The game would not have been a route had Larranaga not gone all in on "let Ryan beat me, we're shutting down Curry." Bottom line, if Curry got going on the 3 ball, he then getes inside the defense and Mason, who as pointed out earlier was displaying real poise and creativity out there comes open with a real edge a couple or 4 times. The game, I think, would still have been close, as long as Ryan scored over 20. Intuition talking here, but "2 plus 2 equals 4 even without me." Notes from Underground, the Narrator.

Henderson
03-03-2013, 11:51 PM
What's up with those bright yellow sneakers Larkin wears? Total contrast to the rest of the team.

1. UM players otherwise unable to find their own PG when in the backcourt?
2. "I'm special" bling? ("Hey LeBron and Dwayne! Over here!")
3. Makes it easier for NBA scouts to track him?

If I were a teammate, I'm not sure I would appreciate it (unless #1, in which case I'd be embarassed).

Love his game. Hate the ostentatiously nonconforming shoes.

Mudge
03-03-2013, 11:52 PM
Duke 79 -- Miami 76 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=206580367)


Big edge for Miami on the boards, 40 to 27
Duke was 11-23 from 3-pt, with Ryan obviously, and Quinn Cook hit 3 big ones
Amile and Murphy did not play
Rasheed had very little to show on the stat sheet, but then made some huge plays late

Oh, and by the way, Ryan Kelly played 32 minutes and had 36 points.

As Bilas, and other informed observers, continue to note-- Duke (despite what SportHenry keeps trying to argue with stats-- that bely what all of us can see with our eyes) is a really bad defensive rebounding team-- it is incredible, the number of times that a single rebounder from the opposing team can slip or slice through four and five Duke players to get an offensive rebound-- mainly because Duke's guards simply refuse to box out (most of the time), once a shot goes up-- I never saw somebody who was more of a ball-watcher when a shot goes up than Quinn Cook-- and Seth Curry and Rasheed Sulaimon are not far behind him. It would be one thing, if Duke were giving up lots of offensive rebounds to a team like last year's Carolina squad, with Henson, Zeller, Barnes, and Marshall all trying to crash the boards over (often) smaller defenders, but that ain't what's happening-- Duke is simply standing around underneath the defensive basket, while the other team swoops in and steals their lunch money-- time after time after time.

sporthenry
03-04-2013, 12:12 AM
As Bilas, and other informed observers, continue to note-- Duke (despite what SportHenry keeps trying to argue with stats-- that bely what all of us can see with our eyes) is a really bad defensive rebounding team-- it is incredible, the number of times that a single rebounder from the opposing team can slip or slice through four and five Duke players to get an offensive rebound-- mainly because Duke's guards simply refuse to box out (most of the time), once a shot goes up-- I never saw somebody who was more of a ball-watcher when a shot goes up than Quinn Cook-- and Seth Curry and Rasheed Sulaimon are not far behind him. It would be one thing, if Duke were giving up lots of offensive rebounds to a team like last year's Carolina squad, with Henson, Zeller, Barnes, and Marshall all trying to crash the boards over (often) smaller defenders, but that ain't what's happening-- Duke is simply standing around underneath the defensive basket, while the other team swoops in and steals their lunch money-- time after time after time.

Thanks for the shoutout. I don't think I ever said Duke was a good defensive rebounding team. All I said in the UVA thread was that it wasn't a particularly poor performance. Everyone wanted to blame the offensive boards by UVA for the loss when in reality, it wasn't that bad. And getting Kelly back should only make Duke a better rebounding team. Duke will always have issues b/c of their guard size and what appears to be Mason wearing down.

But I don't think I ever argued a team ranked 208 in the country is good at defensive rebounding. But some teams which are worse than Duke at offensive rebounding include Minnesota (who somehow has the distinction of being 224st in defensive rebounding but first in offensive rebounding), Illinois, UCLA, Kansas State, Syracuse, and VCU.

Certainly the defense recently has been an issue on the whole but I would put defensive rebounding clearly behind penetration and pick and roll defense.

UrinalCake
03-04-2013, 10:05 AM
Does anyone have a way to look up our "initial defense"? I.e., what shooting percentage do we give up on our opponents' first shot each possession, before any offensive rebounds occur. A steal or turnover would count the same as a missed shot. My gut tells me that despite our troubles stopping dribble penetration, our initial defense is still pretty good. Would love to see some numbers to back it up.

Monmouth77
03-04-2013, 10:24 AM
Did any one else notice that we were playing the "Orange" zone defense for a few possessions in the second half? This seemed to stop Miami's penetration when we used it, though I think it contributed (along with poor technique) to the rebounding imbalance folks are discussing.

I do recall at one point in the second half-- maybe 4:00 to go, before we made our key run-- that four Duke players were in the area of a long rebound and only Durand Scott was in position to rebound for the Hurricanes. The result of the play was that Scott was fouled, and it wasn't a bad call. That's the sort of thing we ought to be able to avoid. Forget crashing the boards. If our guards could rebound their area a bit better it would make a difference.

timmy c
03-04-2013, 10:30 AM
Fascinating article that fleshes out the significant advantages that Kelly brings to the current roster. If you have a few minutes, this is a worthy read.

"Kelly once again made a significant impact defensively in the win over Miami. The Hurricanes shot 42.8 percent from the field with Kelly on the court and 50 percent with him off the court. Miami scored 1.00 points per possession with Kelly on the court and 1.12 points per possessions with him off the court."

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/78038/how-kellys-return-boosts-dukes-d

Mudge
03-04-2013, 11:06 AM
Thanks for the shoutout. I don't think I ever said Duke was a good defensive rebounding team. All I said in the UVA thread was that it wasn't a particularly poor performance. Everyone wanted to blame the offensive boards by UVA for the loss when in reality, it wasn't that bad. And getting Kelly back should only make Duke a better rebounding team. Duke will always have issues b/c of their guard size and what appears to be Mason wearing down.

But I don't think I ever argued a team ranked 208 in the country is good at defensive rebounding. But some teams which are worse than Duke at offensive rebounding include Minnesota (who somehow has the distinction of being 224st in defensive rebounding but first in offensive rebounding), Illinois, UCLA, Kansas State, Syracuse, and VCU.

Certainly the defense recently has been an issue on the whole but I would put defensive rebounding clearly behind penetration and pick and roll defense.

OK, I'll agree with this part, more or less: given a choice between a PG who can stay in front of the other team's PG, on defense, and better box outs on defensive rebounds, I'll take the PG who can keep his man in front of him-- since the lack of that (stopping penetration) leads to incredibly good shots for the other team-- and generally, a dearth of defensive rebounds to collect, since a good number of the opponents' possessions end up being layups or dunks for the opponent... unfortunately, Cook does not look capable of keeping Larkin in front of him (nor did he look capable of keeping Evans from UVa in front of him), so Duke has to hope to limit the number of opportunities for the opponent by not giving up "bad" offensive rebounds, where 4 or 5 Duke players watch one opponent take the ball away from them, because of poor defensive positioning fundamentals. Until Duke finds a defender like Irving, Amaker, Avery, Snyder, Henderson, Duhon, Ewing, Williams, or even Wojo, that can keep quick PGs in front of him with some regularity, in might make sense to concentrate on rebounding the misses, so Duke doesn't just give the opponent another go-round.

FerryFor50
03-04-2013, 11:12 AM
OK, I'll agree with this part, more or less: given a choice between a PG who can stay in front of the other team's PG, on defense, and better box outs on defensive rebounds, I'll take the PG who can keep his man in front of him-- since the lack of that (stopping penetration) leads to incredibly good shots for the other team-- and generally, a dearth of defensive rebounds to collect, since a good number of the opponents' possessions end up being layups or dunks for the opponent... unfortunately, Cook does not look capable of keeping Larkin in front of him (nor did he look capable of keeping Evans from UVa in front of him), so Duke has to hope to limit the number of opportunities for the opponent by not giving up "bad" offensive rebounds, where 4 or 5 Duke players watch one opponent take the ball away from them, because of poor defensive positioning fundamentals. Until Duke finds a defender like Irving, Amaker, Avery, Snyder, Henderson, Duhon, Ewing, Williams, or even Wojo, that can keep quick PGs in front of him with some regularity, in might make sense to concentrate on rebounding the misses, so Duke doesn't just give the opponent another go-round.

It's simple, really - Duke guards seem to equate "pressure defense" with over-playing their man.

Cook and Sulaimon consistently play their man too close. You really should only play your man that close if a) you can keep up or b) you're trying to take away the jumper.

For faster guards, you sag off a bit and defend the drive with priority over the jumper.

This also helps with screens, because for one, you get more space to move over or under the screen.

Two, it prevents fouls because you're not getting bumped off balance and into the man you're defending.

I like their intensity - they just need to take a fews steps off their man to keep him in front of them.

clinresga
03-04-2013, 11:20 AM
how does nobody know about Larkin, until he is making Quinn Cook (DeMatha and Oak Hill) look silly on defense, any time he wants? .

Here's a question on this theme for the basketball technicians. (Forgive me if this has been addressed, I tried to run through the entire thread briefly). So...most of the concern has been over rebounding, but after rewatching the game last night, I'm interested in how Miami was able to generate such consistent penetration, especially in the first half. Both teams rely heavily on a high ball screen to generate penetration, but Miami and Larkin seemed to get much more space than Quinn, Seth and Rasheed. He seemed able to peel off the screener tightly and arc down the lane, which was typically wide open. In contrast, the Duke guards seemed to space away from the screener and almost hesitate, allowing more defensive help. Certainly there's no question that Miami in the first half was penetrating almost at will, where Duke rarely saw that opportunity.

Is this simply a case of faster more athletic guards? Was Miami somehow spacing the floor so widely that help defense could not get to the lane in time? And was it just me or did Mason seem unwilling to step in and challenge the layup? I'm curious what those who actually know what they are talking about think about this issue.

avolsky
03-04-2013, 11:36 AM
Great win against a phenomenal Miami team. Both teams showed a lot of poise throughout the game, indicative of what will hopefully be a long run into March (longer for Duke... hopefully).

Although I am proud and ecstatic about the win, our defense was very porous against the pick and roll drive offense of Miami. I agree that Cook & Sulaimon have consistently over-played the ball and not been able to fight through hard picks. This has allowed the opposition to penetrate our defense and cause havoc on the glass.

With that being said, Ryan Kelly's epic performance overshadowed Mason Plumlee's lack of presence - especially on the defensive end. Duke has relied on offensive charges rather than shot blocking for the past few years. Miami is a well-coached veteran team. Larkin and Scott both stopped short of running into a charge and would either toss the ball up for an alley-oop or avoid the charge altogether and lay the ball in. More often than not, I noticed Mason waiting to take the charge rather than trying to actually defend the play. I understand that the charge is a huge part of our defensive scheme, but teams have been practicing to avoid taking a charge. I can only recall one incidence in which Mason played the ball aggressively and blocked the shot.

Trying to take the charge has also affected our rebounding, or lack thereof. If the referee doesn't call an offensive foul, our tallest and most athletic player is on the ground and completely out of position forcing smaller guards to fight for rebounds against power forwards and centers. The coaches need to get on Mason to jump straight up with his hands to for a block or at least alter the shot. Mason has the ability to play like this, and was playing this way prior to Kelly's injury. I understand his importance on the court and reluctance to get into foul trouble, but we need his size on defense and for rebounding purposes. His feet need to leave the floor and start altering shots.

Kelly's addition to the lineup will hopefully continue to spread the floor for Mason offensively and add an extra tall defender for much needed rebounding. Ryan saved us from an inevitable loss to Miami. We simply cannot allow the type of production in the paint as have the last two games.

It starts with you, Mason. Man up and channel your inner Zoubssssss!!

Let's go DUKE & GTHC!!

DukieinSoCal
03-04-2013, 01:03 PM
I agree with you guys that our guards were over-playing Larkin and Scott on defense. Against weaker, more inexperienced guards, that type of pressure defense can lead to turnovers and disrupt an opposing team's offense but against teams with skilled, experienced guards we need to back off a bit and concentrate on staying in front of these guys. Hopefully we can learn from this and adjust accordingly in the NCAAT. A PG like Burke would slice up our defense if we tried to pressure too much.

I also think our interior defense could improve if the coaches encourage Mason to be more aggressive in defending the rim. Now that Ryan is back, Mason won't have to worry as much about foul trouble since Ryan can play for stretches at the 5 and our backup PFs have gained some valuable experience. During Ryan's absence, it seemed like there were too many easy layups or dunks that Mason could have challenged. His shot-blocking is valuable asset that's been under-utilized in my opinion.

devilsadvocate85
03-04-2013, 04:17 PM
I've been tempted to respond to this thread about 5 or 6 times since coming home from seeing the game in person and feeling great about our team, the result and the awesome return performance by Ryan Kelly. Why are so many focused on all of our flaws and not on the fact that this team is 25-4 and just got back our most complete player?

The one question coming out of this game should be Miami asking itself how a big, slow guy who can't jump and hasn't played in two months managed to kick our butt pretty much singlehandedly?