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View Full Version : I did not think I would EVER be defending ole Roy, but....



fitimi1
03-01-2013, 10:33 AM
....I think the story on the front is too harsh about his use of the word "pansy." And here is why.

I grew up in a very small town in NC and am older, but not by much, than him. I had never heard of any words describing one's sexual orientation until late 60's or early 70's, but had heard and used the word "pansy" since childhood. And in athletic terms, it meant that the person was "soft" and could be intimidated. For example, I played baseball and we knew certain players could be made ineffective by an inside pitch (or just using a side arm motion) their first time at bat.

Bottom line, the so-called "pansy" could be pushed around and had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Perhaps, ole Roy should be more sensitive. LOL

aheel4ever
03-01-2013, 10:56 AM
....I think the story on the front is too harsh about his use of the word "pansy." And here is why.

I grew up in a very small town in NC and am older, but not by much, than him. I had never heard of any words describing one's sexual orientation until late 60's or early 70's, but had heard and used the word "pansy" since childhood. And in athletic terms, it meant that the person was "soft" and could be intimidated. For example, I played baseball and we knew certain players could be made ineffective by an inside pitch (or just using a side arm motion) their first time at bat.

Bottom line, the so-called "pansy" could be pushed around and had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Perhaps, ole Roy should be more sensitive. LOL

I agree. Ol' Roy give you guys plenty of stuff to write about. In my opinion, this is stretching it a bit.

Grey Devil
03-01-2013, 11:19 AM
....I think the story on the front is too harsh about his use of the word "pansy." And here is why.

I grew up in a very small town in NC and am older, but not by much, than him. I had never heard of any words describing one's sexual orientation until late 60's or early 70's, but had heard and used the word "pansy" since childhood. And in athletic terms, it meant that the person was "soft" and could be intimidated. For example, I played baseball and we knew certain players could be made ineffective by an inside pitch (or just using a side arm motion) their first time at bat.

Bottom line, the so-called "pansy" could be pushed around and had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Perhaps, ole Roy should be more sensitive. LOL

I believe that Coach K had a few words somewhere in the somewhat distant past about pansies...along the lines of how he likes to plant pansies in his garden because they last all winter, implying that "pansies" are a lot tougher than most people realize and (to me, at least) that "pansies" are the wrong thing to be calling people when you intend to insult their "toughness."

I did a Google search for "Coach K" or "Krzyzewski" and "pansies" to try to find when/where I heard that. Interestingly, most of the time when I found "pansies" or "pansy" in association with Coach K it was in the comments to articles about Duke basketball when commenters would be calling either Coach K or one of his players a "pansy." Obviously, those folks have no clue just how tough pansies (and Coach K's players) are. So I doubt that Coach K would call any of his players a "pansy" (although I wouldn't be surprised if he called them something else with much tougher language).

BTW, I've always interpreted such word use as an indication of one's own lack of self-confidence, to say nothing about one's mastery of the English language. Surely someone who's a coach of a major university's athletic team can come up with better. Take that ol' Roy!

oldnavy
03-01-2013, 04:40 PM
....I think the story on the front is too harsh about his use of the word "pansy." And here is why.

I grew up in a very small town in NC and am older, but not by much, than him. I had never heard of any words describing one's sexual orientation until late 60's or early 70's, but had heard and used the word "pansy" since childhood. And in athletic terms, it meant that the person was "soft" and could be intimidated. For example, I played baseball and we knew certain players could be made ineffective by an inside pitch (or just using a side arm motion) their first time at bat.

Bottom line, the so-called "pansy" could be pushed around and had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Perhaps, ole Roy should be more sensitive. LOL

Yep, I agree, much ado about nothing. Roy was being Roy, but to assume he was referring to his players as homosexuals is a bit ridiculous. I have heard pansey used all my life and it refers to weak, or not tough. Has nothing to do with sexual orientation. But I suppose someone somewhere will take offense to his using that word... can't really say much of anything these days without someone taking offense....

magjayran
03-01-2013, 05:36 PM
....I think the story on the front is too harsh about his use of the word "pansy." And here is why.

I grew up in a very small town in NC and am older, but not by much, than him. I had never heard of any words describing one's sexual orientation until late 60's or early 70's, but had heard and used the word "pansy" since childhood. And in athletic terms, it meant that the person was "soft" and could be intimidated. For example, I played baseball and we knew certain players could be made ineffective by an inside pitch (or just using a side arm motion) their first time at bat.

Bottom line, the so-called "pansy" could be pushed around and had nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Perhaps, ole Roy should be more sensitive. LOL

You can date the use of the word "pansy" to describe homosexuals to the late 20's (google "pansy performers" or "pansy craze") and possibly before. Sometimes people use words to describe people without knowing the origin of the insult. I don't think you meant to be offensive when you used it in the past and I don't think Roy did when he used it recently either. But perhaps it would be a good idea for people to avoid using that word in the future unless describing flowers since it can be an offensive term.

Jarhead
03-01-2013, 09:13 PM
You can date the use of the word "pansy" to describe homosexuals to the late 20's (google "pansy performers" or "pansy craze") and possibly before. Sometimes people use words to describe people without knowing the origin of the insult. I don't think you meant to be offensive when you used it in the past and I don't think Roy did when he used it recently either. But perhaps it would be a good idea for people to avoid using that word in the future unless describing flowers since it can be an offensive term.

One can have the same debate on the word "gay" which is something of a late arrival in the competition with "pansy." At one time, though, both words had a totally different meaning than they do today. Also, it seems that "gay" in now generally accepted while "pansy" is a put down.

sagegrouse
03-01-2013, 09:29 PM
One can have the same debate on the word "gay" which is something of a late arrival in the competition with "pansy." At one time, though, both words had a totally different meaning than they do today. Also, it seems that "gay" in now generally accepted while "pansy" is a put down.

My high school coach loved the term "pantywaist." It was not a good sign for future playing time to be on the "pantywaist" list. BTW his given name was "Hazel," and it didn't seem to bother him.

And I have no idea whom the term insults.

sagegrouse
'OTOH Coach Hazel left Charleston in the 1960's to become a dean of students at Appalachian State and later advanced to AD. He gave Bobby Cremins his first head coaching job'

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 06:23 AM
You can date the use of the word "pansy" to describe homosexuals to the late 20's (google "pansy performers" or "pansy craze") and possibly before. Sometimes people use words to describe people without knowing the origin of the insult. I don't think you meant to be offensive when you used it in the past and I don't think Roy did when he used it recently either. But perhaps it would be a good idea for people to avoid using that word in the future unless describing flowers since it can be an offensive term.

Of course it is meant to be offensive. That is the whole point for calling someone a "name". Roy wasn't trying to compliment his players when he called them that. He was trying to offend them, shame them, or better yet motivate them. He was saying that they played weak. Only someone who is ultra-sensitive (or 100 years old) would take that as a reference to gays.

I think the point is that it is not a commonly used term in the first place, and second, it is not a commonly used term in the modern era used to refer to homosexuals. There are plenty of much more recognizable terms that ol’ Roy could have used if he had meant to insult the gay community by comparing them to his players. ;)

To try to make Roy’s good ol’ boy, colloquialism into something politically charged is wrong. We can't sit here and complain about how the media twists everything that Coach K says and do the exact same thing.

bronston22
03-02-2013, 06:35 AM
I am glad to see the defense of Roy Williams on this one. I am rather tired of fans and media types making stories out of nothing and would rather hear the bball analyzed. Coach K has been blasted in all quarters for his comments about storming the court. Anyone who has ever seen Larry Bird literally fight his way through his own fans at the Garden should know there is some danger involved. Trying to make Roy's use of pansy some homophobic slur is ridiculous. If you are offended by it you need to Man Up! Hope I'm not in trouble for posting that.:D

rocketeli
03-02-2013, 08:16 AM
Why has this thread been highjacked by IC members? I am about (alas) as old as Ol'Roy and back in our day "Pansy" was a much more common slur on gays than it is today. I'm not going to get into why it's wrong to use a word used as an offensive term for any minority or oppressed group to insult people because if you don't know that and know why its wrong I can't teach you in an internet forum.

I think we have all "been there"--used an inappropriate term and got caught out. There's no point in getting all "butthurt" as the kids say, rambling and snorting about how "some of our best friends..." or "I didn't mean it that way..." It's best to just say "sorry, I accidentally used a term with denigrating connotations, and I know better. Thanks for helping me be a better person" and drive on.

DevilWearsPrada
03-02-2013, 09:36 AM
I thought Coach K planted Pansies in his flower garden at home! I know he likes to work outside in his garden and grows different flowers, having his Dog, Blue, beside him in the fresh air!

Maybe the Word "Pansy" or 'Pansie" was taken out of context! Well, Maybe, or Maybe not!

Buckeye Devil
03-02-2013, 10:54 AM
Roy should realize that he lives in a overly-sensitive, highly charged PC nation where anything you say can and probably will be held against you. All the worse when you are not only the basketball coach for, but also one of the prominent faces of a high profile university like UNC. Urban Meyer was going to have players who were giving less than 100% effort wear lavender jerseys in practice in 2012 and was called on the carpet for that since the color is linked to homosexuality. I don't know what color he ended up choosing for lackadaisical players but apparently it wasn't deemed offensive by someone else. Amazing.

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 12:40 PM
Roy should realize that he lives in a overly-sensitive, highly charged PC nation where anything you say can and probably will be held against you. All the worse when you are not only the basketball coach for, but also one of the prominent faces of a high profile university like UNC. Urban Meyer was going to have players who were giving less than 100% effort wear lavender jerseys in practice in 2012 and was called on the carpet for that since the color is linked to homosexuality. I don't know what color he ended up choosing for lackadaisical players but apparently it wasn't deemed offensive by someone else. Amazing.

That I would find hard to believe...

theAlaskanBear
03-02-2013, 08:29 PM
I'm sorry, but Roy deserves the criticism here. If he meant to call them soft, he could have called them "soft" or "not tough" or "weak" or "not strong enough". He used the term pansy precisely because it is insulting. You can say, "oh he just wants to inspire them" or "he is not insulting gays" but the bottom line is he is denigrating his players in an unacceptable way. Just another version of throwing kids under the bus. Can you ever imagine Coach K calling any of his players a pansy?

I grew up in the south during the 90-00s and this nonsense about "pansy" being an o.k. term is stupid. You call another kid a pansy at school and you would get punched in the face or start a fight. Everyone knows what it means. It IS a slur, and to pretend otherwise is to wear blinders. It implies weakness because gay people were not seen as tough, or "limp-wristed" and effeminate. Given that sports and athletic culture in the US is still homophobic, and that there are no public gay figures in the major sports, and given the recent NFL combine questions -- this stuff should not be tolerated, because it carries connotations and intimidates and insults gay athletes who are afraid to speak out.

oldnavy
03-02-2013, 11:09 PM
I'm sorry, but Roy deserves the criticism here. If he meant to call them soft, he could have called them "soft" or "not tough" or "weak" or "not strong enough". He used the term pansy precisely because it is insulting. You can say, "oh he just wants to inspire them" or "he is not insulting gays" but the bottom line is he is denigrating his players in an unacceptable way. Just another version of throwing kids under the bus. Can you ever imagine Coach K calling any of his players a pansy?

I grew up in the south during the 90-00s and this nonsense about "pansy" being an o.k. term is stupid. You call another kid a pansy at school and you would get punched in the face or start a fight. Everyone knows what it means. It IS a slur, and to pretend otherwise is to wear blinders. It implies weakness because gay people were not seen as tough, or "limp-wristed" and effeminate. Given that sports and athletic culture in the US is still homophobic, and that there are no public gay figures in the major sports, and given the recent NFL combine questions -- this stuff should not be tolerated, because it carries connotations and intimidates and insults gay athletes who are afraid to speak out.

Who has said that it was OK and not meant to be an insult? It is an insult. But to expect Roy to speak like a rational and well educated man is a bit much. He is a "mountain man" (his words) and he has very little filter between his brain and mouth. I am all over him all the time. This is what he does, he talks trash about his team to the press all the time. In fact this is mild compared to some of his rants of the past.

I just think that in this case it is a bit of a stretch to say he was being insensitive to a group of people other than his players. He used a term that I am sure he relates to being weak and not because of their sexual orientation. He was trying to be cute and all "southerny" like he often does. I find this to be more offensive than the use of the word pansy.

I have heard the term my whole life and I have never known the term to have a direct link to gays. If it is a hurtful term to the gay community then I wouldn't have know it either.

But I will leave it up to the gay community to deceide if they find it offensive and to complain about it. It really isn't up to me to determine what is offensive to someone else.

If Roy did mean it as a reference to gays, then shame on him.... I just don't see it in this case.

Lid
03-03-2013, 06:30 AM
How is this not PPB material? I want to reply, but am afraid I'd get dinged by a mod. Complaining about people who think gay slurs are not something to be avoided seems to cross that line to me. But what do I know? I must be 100 years old, or maybe I try to treat others with respect whenever I can. (Except for Carolina fans, of course, but I'm working on that.)

Reilly
03-03-2013, 06:52 AM
When/where did Roy call his team pansies?

I see where he called himself a pansy ... talking about being scared last Fall w/ his health worries:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012/10/williams-raises-money-to-ght-cancer

oldnavy
03-03-2013, 07:22 AM
When/where did Roy call his team pansies?

I see where he called himself a pansy ... talking about being scared last Fall w/ his health worries:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2012/10/williams-raises-money-to-ght-cancer

He said they played like pansies after the Clemson win. The front page of DBR took him to task over using the word, as it is seen as a slur against gays.

IMO, it was meant to mean weak and afraid, which would be supported by Roy referring to himself using the same word.

The mods may shut this down at anytime, but the thread was in response to the front page article and has to do with our arch enemies head coach, so.... who knows.

I had a very nice PM from someone about this, and they explained that the term has been historically used as an insult to gays, something I really never knew.

Ya'll know me, I love to kick Roy, but in this case I think it is a little much to think that he was being un-PC.

Reilly
03-03-2013, 08:11 AM
Looking up the word, I see that it has various definitions, sometimes indeed meant as a slur, other times meaning just to be weak. Like you, I love to point out Roy's foibles ... but I don't think Roy is actually mean-spirited, and guess he simply meant the more innocent definition, which apparently does exist. Even the more innocent definition, of course, is not a compliment, and raises some of the same old issues: Roy's public criticism of his team.

-jk
03-03-2013, 09:00 AM
I think we can put this one to bed.

-jk