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sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 10:11 PM
Have at it!

sagegrouse

rthomas
02-28-2013, 10:12 PM
You shoulda started this thread about 45 minutes ago.

jipops
02-28-2013, 10:13 PM
Just beat the crap out of Miami!

wtm001
02-28-2013, 10:13 PM
Kinda hard to believe we only lost by 5

Kjeffrey
02-28-2013, 10:14 PM
I saw some positives from Alex. I wish he played more but I am not sure that will happen any time soon.

jacone21
02-28-2013, 10:14 PM
Congrats on finally beating Duke, Coach Bennett. Savor the victory. We shall meet again!

Phoenix22
02-28-2013, 10:14 PM
The offensive game plan/execution was just terrible. Duke couldn't get Mason the ball in any decent position and in addition didn't move the ball well on the perimeter. What 7 assists?

Thank you for showing up Seth Curry.

Hopefully we can close the book on the non-Kelly stretch - we need you big boy!

Wander
02-28-2013, 10:15 PM
Quinn with 17 shot attempts while Mason has 5 is probably not ideal.

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 10:15 PM
Just a bad game in many aspects. Frustrating, obviously as much for the team and coaches as it was for us fans.

Harris had a great night, an absolute career night. Part of that was just him being a stud, part was UVa getting away with all kinds of grabs, holds, and moving picks all night. The game was just called very, very badly and there's no question it hampered our guys from being able to make any kind of run.

Still, what decided the game wasn't Harris pulling a Bootsie (okay, not fair, he's too good of a player to pull a Bootsie...he pulled a Greivis), or the guys in stripes, it was our inability to figure out how to attack UVa's defense. Mason was shut down completely. He was pushed too far out, had trouble getting close enough to score, and our guys weren't able to take advantage of the double to hit 3s on kickouts.

As always after a game like this...next play. Home against Miami, with or without Ryan. Time to pay back the Canes.

ScreechTDX1847
02-28-2013, 10:16 PM
We haven't won a significant road game yet. I am hopeful the neutral courts will treat us better and a @UNC road win.

CLW
02-28-2013, 10:17 PM
You shoulda started this thread about 45 minutes ago.

yeah this was never really in doubt.

joe harris toasted every one we put on him. our defensive game plan and execution were very poor. we continue to be a bad rebounding team. the body language was AWFUL all night.

ryan kelly better be the combination of: lebron james; michael jordan; bill russell; magic johnson; and larry bird b/c we are going to need all of that to make a deep run the way we have been playing lately.

DukeWarhead
02-28-2013, 10:17 PM
Some losses make you shrug (NCState) Some losses leave you dumbfounded (Miami) Some losses just make you pissed (Maryland and UVa). Not much positive from this one. No pressure on Miami now and tarholes now have something to play for in CH.
Pissed, I say.

cptnflash
02-28-2013, 10:18 PM
No real surprises in this one, although I was mildly disappointed in Rasheed's lack of maturity. Otherwise, it was the same old story... porous defense, very little rebounding, and a passive Mason, all combined for a loss against a very good and very motivated team playing the most important game of their season in their own building. Largely an irrelevant result in my book... all that matters is how much the team can grow and develop once Ryan gets back. They've missed two months of development opportunity together, hopefully the guys can make up a lot of time in a hurry.

HateCarolina
02-28-2013, 10:18 PM
Well as the saying goes...next game. The worse part is being amped up, not being able to fall asleep, checking FB and remembering that I grew up in Richmond thus a lot of Wahoowoo posts of the final score!! May have to change my moniker to Hate UVA for the night.

Thanks to DBR for allowing me to vent through this game. I hope Roger Ayers and K can make up and move on too.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-28-2013, 10:18 PM
Literally one of those games where you want to pull your hair out.

I'm really dissapointed in our guard play. Sheed and Quinn were not good tonight and again, Quinn was not an initiator on offense. That trend is really bothersome. He has shown an improved jump shot, but his penetration defense and overall management of the offense has been sub-par.

sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 10:19 PM
Starting and ending with the positive:

1. The game is over: I don't have to listen to Dino Gaudio for one second more. What a sing-song drone that guy is!

2. The game is over: I don't have to watch a totally incompetent officiating crew mess up a major college game. Bernard Clinton, Mike Eades, and Roger Ayers don't have a clue how to call a game. Hey, guys! Swim moves are legal -- hooks are not. Mason's swim move is taught at every college in the land. And did you see how they tried to make up for the imbalance in the last 2 minutes once the game was decided????

3. The final score doesn't make the game look as bad as it really was.

4. Joe Harris fouled out -- but not nearly soon enough.

5. We are one day closer to getting Ryan Kelly back on the court. May that happen Saturday.

6. Curry and Cook played well in a scramble mode the second half -- Cook was good in the first half as well.

7. Alex Murphy was perfection in the 1:30 he was in the game.

I can't think of any more positives.

sagegrouse

UrinalCake
02-28-2013, 10:20 PM
They played great and we just didn't have it tonight. Mason looked tired and I'm not really sure why. Several times he just stood there while UVA grabbed rebounds right in front of him. He was clearly frustrated by UVA's defense and we couldn't get enough motion and ball movement to give him the ball in good position. When he finally did get the ball he was 18 feet away from the basket, got doubled, and couldn't find the open man.

Defensively they spread us out and beat us off the dribble all night long. One of those games where you wonder why your opponent doesn't have a better record.

Seth had a really great game after a slow start. Hopefully we'll play better against Miami.

P.S. anyone else see the black eye Marshall was sporting?

Kjeffrey
02-28-2013, 10:20 PM
the body language was AWFUL all night.

There was a lot of complaining, hanging heads, etc. I am sure it is frustrating to feel like the refs are being inconsistent but you have to be tougher than that at this level. We need Ryan's leadership because Seth and Mason are not very vocal.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-28-2013, 10:21 PM
A lack of a playmaker from the PG spot truly hurt us tonight. Also rebounding was pathetic. The coaches didn't have the team ready for UVA's gameplan and made little adjustment at halftime.

Solid game by Seth, though. Good to see Kelly too in uniform.

pamtar
02-28-2013, 10:21 PM
I'm going to ref school! What is that, a one year associates degree? You don't even have to do your job well and you still get paid! Plus, its a great workout!

Seriously though, in my 30 years watching Duke basketball I've never seen refs THAT bad. It's one thing to call it bad both ways, but to literally give the game to the other team is another. I'm not saying they meant to do that, I'm saying that every important call went against Duke. I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

jipops
02-28-2013, 10:21 PM
Just a bad game in many aspects. Frustrating, obviously as much for the team and coaches as it was for us fans.

Harris had a great night, an absolute career night. Part of that was just him being a stud, part was UVa getting away with all kinds of grabs, holds, and moving picks all night. The game was just called very, very badly and there's no question it hampered our guys from being able to make any kind of run.

Still, what decided the game wasn't Harris pulling a Bootsie (okay, not fair, he's too good of a player to pull a Bootsie...he pulled a Greivis), it was our inability to figure out how to attack UVa's defense. Mason was shut down completely. He was pushed too far out, had trouble getting close enough to score, and our guys weren't able to take advantage of the double to hit 3s on kickouts.

As always after a game like this...next play. Home against Miami, with or without Ryan. Time to pay back the Canes.

I seem to remember a lot of screen and rolls and down screens that created such open looks they looked like rec league shots.

There was no way we were going to get offensive flow against their D. It's too good at home. I had hoped we would get some stops as well and get to the FT line more often as well as some offensive stick backs. The strange way this game was called didn't help but our defense sure made it easy for them.

dukelifer
02-28-2013, 10:23 PM
Disappointing loss. Despite his occasional brilliance Rasheed is still a Freshman and is up and down. Tonight was a poor night for him. We will see how Duke responds down the stretch of the season and whether Ryan can get back in the swing. Nothing revealed here that we did not know before about this team. Just could not match Harris's will to win this one. In the end it is mostly about who wants it more.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-28-2013, 10:23 PM
They played great and we just didn't have it tonight. Mason looked tired and I'm not really sure why. Several times he just stood there while UVA grabbed rebounds right in front of him. He was clearly frustrated by UVA's defense and we couldn't get enough motion and ball movement to give him the ball in good position. When he finally did get the ball he was 18 feet away from the basket, got doubled, and couldn't find the open man.

Defensively they spread us out and beat us off the dribble all night long. One of those games where you wonder why your opponent doesn't have a better record.

Seth had a really great game after a slow start. Hopefully we'll play better against Miami.

P.S. anyone else see the black eye Marshall was sporting?

I did. Isn't that the 2nd black eye he has sported this year?

...wish he earned those on the court with the big boys

mgtr
02-28-2013, 10:23 PM
There is much to find fault with -- principally that Virginia wanted this game far more than we did, and they played really well. Except for Curry in the second half, nobody really played well, so there is plenty of blame to go around. But my real concern was with Mason -- he looked as though he just didn't care. He was standing flatfooted in the lane watching Virginia get revounds and putbacks. On offense, he was playing way outside the territory where he can succeed. In fairness, part of the problem is the defensive scheme we use. I think, in games like this, that on defense Mason should just stay in the lane and stop anybody trying to go to the basket.
So, when I am coach, that is what I will have him do! As another poster said, it was good for Murphy to get some burn, so that was a plus.

End of rant.

JayBean
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
yeah this was never really in doubt.

joe harris toasted every one we put on him. our defensive game plan and execution were very poor. we continue to be a bad rebounding team. the body language was AWFUL all night.

ryan kelly better be the combination of: lebron james; michael jordan; bill russell; magic johnson; and larry bird b/c we are going to need all of that to make a deep run the way we have been playing lately.

Ryan just needs to be able to shoot consistently and pass; the rest of the offense will flow fine. As for the defense, not so sure.

fisheyes
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Starting and ending with the positive:

I can't think of any more positives.

sagegrouse

Foul shooting.

Trying to stay positive!

superdave
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Was that Seth Greenberg doing color tonight? I thought he was pretty good.

He and Jay Williams were both killing Mason for posting up 18 feet from the basket and for playing a weak finesse game. Mason would not have had those two offensive hook fouls had he been a man and sat on the block.

Mason cannot get Ryan back soon enough. It changes everything for him.

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
I seem to remember a lot of screen and rolls and down screens that created such open looks they looked like rec league shots.

There was no way we were going to get offensive flow against their D. It's too good at home. I had hoped we would get some stops as well and get to the FT line more often. The strange way this game was called didn't help but our defense sure made it easy for them.

You're right...I should have given more credit to UVa - they did a nice job creating good looks for Harris and they earned this win. However, I do think a lot of Sulaimon's frustration was from getting roughed up pretty badly trying to keep up with Harris. The kid looked at times like he was trying to fight through a rugby scrum to stay with Harris.

rtnorthrup
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Mason watching Joe Harris go right by him for an offensive rebound summed this game up for me. Harris was not going to let his team lose.

Coach K always says that you have to fight for 40 minutes. We played basketball for 40 minutes. They fought for 40 minutes. Game over.

Chicken Little
02-28-2013, 10:25 PM
Hats off to Virginia. They showed up and forced Duke to play their game. They were physical and followed shots, caught Duke sleeping more times that I could keep track of, and pulled off the win. They played like a team that needed this win to get into the tournament.

Duke played like they were looking past this game. I thought they would snap out of it and get it together when Cook came back in with his head removed from wherever he was hiding it, but they never really got everyone going at the same time. Between Sheed, Tyler and Seth, I think I remember at least 6 wide-open threes that were missed. We didn't box out, we didn't rebound, and we didn't respond when Virginia came out physical.

Those things considered, a 5 point loss shouldn't be as frustrating as this one was. It was frustrating because I hate complaining about officiating. I just can't imagine that there wasn't at least 6 points worth of bad officiating in this one. I simply cannot.

That said, I hope our guys tuck this one away in their minds the next time they're getting the short end of the stick, and play through it. I can only imagine the coaching staff uses this as a harsh teachable moment, and March is a happier time for it.

CoachJ10
02-28-2013, 10:25 PM
Starting and ending with the positive:

1. The game is over: I don't have to listen to Dino Gaudio for one second more. What a sing-song drone that guy is!

2. The game is over: I don't have to watch a totally incompetent officiating crew mess up a major college game. Bernard Clinton, Mike Eades, and Roger Ayers don't have a clue how to call a game. Hey, guys! Swim moves are legal -- hooks are not. Mason's swim move is taught at every college in the land. And did you see how they tried to make up for the imbalance in the last 2 minutes once the game was decided????

3. The final score doesn't make the game look as bad as it really was.

4. Joe Harris fouled out -- but not nearly soon enough.

5. We are one day closer to getting Ryan Kelly back on the court. May that happen Saturday.

6. Curry and Cook played well in a scramble mode the second half -- Cook was good in the first half as well.

7. Alex Murphy was perfection in the 1:30 he was in the game.

I can't think of any more positives.

sagegrouse

Dino Gaudio showed you can be a color man and actually be smart and fair in how you analyze the game. That's the only positive I took away...

WakeDevil
02-28-2013, 10:26 PM
Tar Heels now have something to play for in CH.
Pissed, I say.

Please explain.

Meckler
02-28-2013, 10:26 PM
The offensive game plan/execution was just terrible. Duke couldn't get Mason the ball in any decent position and in addition didn't move the ball well on the perimeter. What 7 assists?

Thank you for showing up Seth Curry.

Hopefully we can close the book on the non-Kelly stretch - we need you big boy!

Duke had no interior defense and yet they almost held UVA to under 70 points. This team is an anomaly. I know they can't win them all, but their margin of error is so razor thin. They get down early by 12 and never really got into an offense/defense groove. Thought Curry's three to start the second half would kick-start them but the defense let them down. That guy Mitchell looked an awful like a low caloric version of Derrick Williams back in the 2011 tourney when he totally shred the Duke defense. They only think Mitchell didn;t do tonight was convert on the one on none dunk.

I am concerned that if Ryan Kelley doesn't return in some sort of capacity this weekend he won't have enough game time reps to make a big impact in either ACC or NCAA's. If he's still hasn;t been cleared, then there is nothing Duke can do. But if he is physically ready to take the pounding, I hope he can get about 10 monutes of play against Miami.

GO DUKE!!

chaosmage
02-28-2013, 10:27 PM
I find it hard to believe that a man with as many wins as K didn't prepare the team. I'm a teacher of band, and it does not matter how much I prep the kids for competition, if they do not go out and execute, we are not successful.

Sometimes kids are still just that; kids. There is only so much you can tell them to do before it falls on them.

That being said; we couldn't hit the ocean sitting at the bottom of it. And when a guy plays like Joe Harris did, there really isn't much you can do except try to hold down the other four.

My biggest gripe about Dino was him using K's line straight from the back of his basketball keywords book about "I believe in you." Acknowledge what you steal.

Just some thoughts.. take them or leave them.

wgl1228
02-28-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm sorry to question the coaches, but without kelly this personnel cannot play man to man consistently. Mason gets caught out at the 3 point line while some guard gets a put back or layup. It happens all the time.

Kjeffrey
02-28-2013, 10:28 PM
Please explain.

I assume he means third place since we are 11-4 and they are 12-5.

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 10:28 PM
Dino Gaudio showed you can be a color man and actually be smart and fair in how you analyze the game. That's the only positive I took away...

Agreed. Dino did a nice job. He was even handed and made some nice insights. His voice is one that could put my 5 month old to sleep, but I'll take that over a color guy who thinks his job is be the entertainment rather than to analyze the entertainment.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-28-2013, 10:29 PM
Ryan just needs to be able to shoot consistently and pass; the rest of the offense will flow fine. As for the defense, not so sure.

The other player we need to return is Quinn Cook the playmaking PG from The first 3 months of the year. Quinn Cook doing a Greg Paulus impersonation is OK. To be great, though, Duke needs a playmaker not another spot-up 3 point shooter.

cptnflash
02-28-2013, 10:29 PM
I assume he means third place since we are 11-4 and they are 12-5.

Tar Heels could still take 2nd in conference. That's what he meant.

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 10:30 PM
I assume he means third place since we are 11-4 and they are 12-5.

While I think they'll beat FSU and should beat UM, I wouldn't automatically credit UNC with their next two wins. They still have to play the games.

gep
02-28-2013, 10:31 PM
Seriously though, in my 30 years watching Duke basketball I've never seen refs THAT bad. It's one thing to call it bad both ways, but to literally give the game to the other team is another. I'm not saying they meant to do that, I'm saying that every important call went against Duke. I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

I think this is how Gary Williams felt in 2001 :confused:

Highlander
02-28-2013, 10:32 PM
UVA's defense was simple, but deadly effective:
1) Double Mason every time he touches the ball, effectively neutralizing him.
2) Switch on every screen on the perimeter, forcing Duke to go 1 on 1.
3) Crash the boards on every shot.

This pretty much prevented us from running any of our sets, and limited us to one shot.

On the offensive side, UVA ran the pick and roll to perfection. Our guys got caught by the pick, and on the switch the screener was wide open on the roll to the basket. They also did a great job downscreening for Harris, and he ate us alive. Throw in the fact that we were our normally passive selves on the defensive glass, and they did enough to win. We made it respectable at the end with some 3's and missed FT's by them, but we let them put us in way to big of a hole to seriously threaten.

The officiating was a bit disjointed. Consider that UVA didn't get called for a single moving screen the entire game, yet Mason got called for a hook on the baseline twice, and Thornton fouled out on (essentially) 5 reach ins. However, it was obvious that UVA was more aggressive and wanted this game more than we did.

We got 8 points from our #3 and #4 positions tonight, and Mason had a quiet 10/7. That won't get it done most nights, and it certainly didn't tonight.

I certainly don't think we're playing like a #1 seed right now. If Kelly comes back and we win the ACC Tourney, maybe. The only thing we have going for us is that no one else is playing like a #1 seed either, with the possible exception of Gonzaga and Miami (pending this weekend's game).

Oh well. Next play.

sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 10:36 PM
Foul shooting.

Trying to stay positive!

You're right, and one more: We held Virginia to 37 points -- or, that is, players not named Joe Harris.

sagegrouse

mgtr
02-28-2013, 10:37 PM
Agreed. Dino did a nice job. He was even handed and made some nice insights. His voice is one that could put my 5 month old to sleep, but I'll take that over a color guy who thinks his job is be the entertainment rather than to analyze the entertainment.

The part that I liked best was that the commentators actually commented on the game at hand, instead of telling never-ending stories about things that happened years ago and ignoring the game.

sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 10:38 PM
I certainly don't think we're playing like a #1 seed right now. If Kelly comes back and we win the ACC Tourney, maybe. The only thing we have going for us is that no one else is playing like a #1 seed either, with the possible exception of Gonzaga and Miami (pending this weekend's game).

Oh well. Next play.

Well, to our advantage, no one is, and there will be four teams selected.

sagegrouse

jipops
02-28-2013, 10:39 PM
UVA's defense was simple, but deadly effective:
1) Double Mason every time he touches the ball, effectively neutralizing him.
2) Switch on every screen on the perimeter, forcing Duke to go 1 on 1.
3) Crash the boards on every shot.


And point 3 is what really killed us on the offensive end. Every team can lay off our 4. So that guy needs to be crashing the boards as well. K focused on this aspect in the post game saying we really got nothing from this position tonight. Zero offensive rebounds from that position. Our only offensive boards came from guards for a grand total of 2. Facing the kind of defense UVA plays at home, we have very little chance of winning if there is no effort in that part of the game. Couple that with the constant struggles on defense and we had even less of a chance.

Saratoga2
02-28-2013, 10:44 PM
No real surprises in this one, although I was mildly disappointed in Rasheed's lack of maturity. Otherwise, it was the same old story... porous defense, very little rebounding, and a passive Mason, all combined for a loss against a very good and very motivated team playing the most important game of their season in their own building. Largely an irrelevant result in my book... all that matters is how much the team can grow and develop once Ryan gets back. They've missed two months of development opportunity together, hopefully the guys can make up a lot of time in a hurry.

Our defense and rebounding were both poor tonight with us a negative 12 in rebounds. Mason didn't really attempt to block shots and was often trapped under the basket and not involved in the rebounding. He did pick it up in the second half but was still not a dominant player. He did hit his free throws tonight and that shouldn't be missed by his critics. People were criticizing our guard play, especially Rasheed and Quinn. I disagree to some extent on that one, in that we really tried to Guard Harris with Seth (too small and not mobile enough) and then Rasheed ( bigger, quicker but still unable to stop him). I thought a good possibility was to use Amile on him with decent quickness and a lot more length. Plus he might have helped with rebounding. What would be the issue with at least trying that when other approaches were not working?

I thought the effort Rasheed was putting out on Harris impacted his offensive game and he may have been told to be more aggressive offensively. He made some ill advised drives into the defense and his shots were falling short. Virginia does do a good job defensively, so some of his scoring woes were just good defense. Quinn was putting a lot of pressure on the ball and did score 22 points, so it is hard to say he had a bad game as some will say here. Seth was terrific despite being grabbed and bumped throughout the game.

What didn't work for us was Tyler who fouls way too much and added little other than one good offensive rebound and pass out for a 3 pointer. No points and 5 foul doesn't get much done. Josh was too slow and also added no points and was not a force rebounding or defending.

I think the board knew going in that we would have difficulty scoring against a good Virginia defense and that the only way to win this one was to play good defense and rebound. Well we didn't do those things and lost. To perform better we need to encourage the following:

1. Ask Mason to be more aggressive. If he gets fouls, let them be trying to block shots instead of offensive fouls.
2. Try to integrate Amile and Alex in a more meaningful way. Josh has to play against teams with big rugged front courts, otherwise Amiles gives us more.
3. Insist on boxing out for rebounds and give Mason some size and quickness to help get some rebounds.
4. Get Ryan back ASAP.

uh_no
02-28-2013, 10:44 PM
And point 3 is what really killed us on the offensive end. Every team can lay off our 4. So that guy needs to be crashing the boards as well. K focused on this aspect in the post game saying we really got nothing from this position tonight. Zero offensive rebounds from that position. Our only offensive boards came from guards for a grand total of 2. Facing the kind of defense UVA plays at home, we have very little chance of winning if there is no effort in that part of the game. Couple that with the constant struggles on defense and we had even less of a chance.

for the time being :)

moonpie23
02-28-2013, 10:45 PM
it wasn't a beat down......we had a rough start and couldn't catch up........mason's lack of fire was pretty depressing..

who was that ref with the eddie munster hair? he's not my buddy tonight.....he seemed pissed at k and the team...



good night's sleep, short practice, really good night's sleep and then MIAMI!!!


let's get it on!!

dyedwab
02-28-2013, 10:47 PM
The only thing we have going for us is that no one else is playing like a #1 seed either, with the possible exception of Gonzaga and Miami (pending this weekend's game).

Actually, lost in the Miami fever has been that they haven't played all that well recently. Two-point win over Clemson, 4 point win of UVA, and a bad loss on the road at Wake.

We looked terrible tonight. It seems that, once again, we were surprised by the intensity and energy of a good team playing us on their home floor. That's a long-term issue for the program that we need to solve. But what we need is Quinn and Mason to play better. Without Kelly, this is still a top ten team - if our center and our point guard play to there capabilities.

uh_no
02-28-2013, 10:47 PM
it wasn't a beat down......we had a rough start and couldn't catch up........mason's lack of fire was pretty depressing..

who was that ref with the eddie munster hair? he's not my buddy tonight.....he seemed pissed at k and the team...



good night's sleep, short practice, really good night's sleep and then MIAMI!!!


let's get it on!!

yes and no....

we had a rough start and then closed to 21-22.....then we had another rough start to the second half and couldn't close


eh..time to look ahead. kelly will be back in the next week, and that should solve a lot of our issues.

gcashwell
02-28-2013, 10:47 PM
At least Mason will be well rested for Miami.

licc85
02-28-2013, 10:48 PM
It's pretty obvious that our rebounding has been the problem almost all year. Every loss (with the exception of the Miami game), we get just massacred on the boards. If Mason has a bad game rebounding, nobody else really steps up to fill that void. It's not a fatal flaw, because if we are shooting well, we can usually cover for it. Other than boxing out better, I don't think we can really improve that much in the rebounding area, we just don't have the muscle outside of Mason to do it against elite front court players.

We've had bad shooting nights before, (The UNC game and the first BC game weren't so great on offense) but when that happens AND we can't grab any rebounds, it's hard to compensate. When Ryan comes back, it will help the offense, hopefully enough to offset the team's inability to compete on the boards. I wish we still had Miles . . . he'd be exactly what this team lacks . . . a big, physical dude who scraps and bangs around inside the paint. Mason seems to be a little softer than his older brother.

I still think we're in as good shape as anyone else to win it all. Every team has major flaws this year.

jipops
02-28-2013, 10:48 PM
it wasn't a beat down......we had a rough start and couldn't catch up........mason's lack of fire was pretty depressing..

who was that ref with the eddie munster hair? he's not my buddy tonight.....he seemed pissed at k and the team...



good night's sleep, short practice, really good night's sleep and then MIAMI!!!


let's get it on!!

We should be well rested since we haven't expended any defensive effort since the 1st fifteen minutes of the 1st half of the BC game on Feb 24.

sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 10:50 PM
What didn't work for us was Tyler who fouls way too much and added little other than one good offensive rebound and pass out for a 3 pointer. No points and 5 foul doesn't get much done. Josh was too slow and also added no points and was not a force rebounding or defending.



UVa got away with murder, and the referee crew was an accomplice. Thornton was called for five reach-ins -- far less physical than his usual fouls and all stuff that UVa was doing all game long with impunity. Rasheed was called for a T when he dared utter the truth -- "All ball!" Mason was called for two offensive fouls that could be called ludicrous if they weren't so lachrymose.

Worst officiating of a Duke game since the 2004 Final Four against UConn -- and at least that game had bad calls against both teams.

sagegrouse

nchfries67
02-28-2013, 10:53 PM
It stinks that this pretty much ends the ACC regular season title race, but this loss isn't so bad. First, Seth Curry continues to show that he is one of the most lethal scorers in the nation. He kept us within striking range the entire game with his scoring. Second, while Plumlee may not have put up good numbers for himself, I think it must've been hard to do that when he would get mauled by Virginia every possession and then get called for "hooks" whenever he did get the ball. Although, I did think he was caught sleeping on the defensive end a couple times (which ticked me off). Third, we just missed some open shots. Particularly at the beginning of the game. When we were missing those early shots I thought we could've been in for Miami Part II. I think we did a good job digging in after that and played fairly well.

But credit Virginia and Joe Harris. He played the game of his life and willed his team to a victory. Joe Harris, some questionable calls or no calls by the officials, and some missed open shots cost us the game. We played hard today.

Also, I was pleased to hear that Ryan Kelly had been looking awesome in practice. Hopefully that is true and transfers to his play when he finally returns. I think this team still has a lot of upside and will be exceptionally hard to beat on a neutral floor. Now lets beat Miami Saturday.

sporthenry
02-28-2013, 10:53 PM
It's pretty obvious that our rebounding has been the problem almost all year. Every loss (with the exception of the Miami game), we get just massacred on the boards. If Mason has a bad game rebounding, nobody else really steps up to fill that void. It's not a fatal flaw, because if we are shooting well, we can usually cover for it. Other than boxing out better, I don't think we can really improve that much in the rebounding area, we just don't have the muscle outside of Mason to do it against elite front court players.

We've had bad shooting nights before, (The UNC game and the first BC game weren't so great on offense) but when that happens AND we can't grab any rebounds, it's hard to compensate. When Ryan comes back, it will help the offense, hopefully enough to offset the team's inability to compete on the boards.

I disagree if you mean defensive boards. They had 28 misses and got 9 offensive boards. That is slightly above average for D-1 but nothing terrible. Now only getting 2 offensive boards on 32 misses is just damn impressive on Duke's part. Offensive boards are about hustle and bad shots. When Mason isn't involved in the offense, he doesn't seem to be in position nor try for offensive boards. And when Sheed and Cook take bad shots, nobody is in position to rebound the ball offensively. Not to mention, I'm sure we've all been there with your teammates chucking up shots and expecting you to run around for rebounds and you just lose the will to do it.

InSpades
02-28-2013, 10:53 PM
Thank you Seth for playing with the heart of a lion out there. If not for him this game would have been an embarassment.

I've never seen a Duke team fail to get so many loose balls out there.

The refs were a joke out there. To call very picky things and then ignore moving screen after moving screen is just terrible.

That's obviously not why Duke lost this game. Virginia wanted it more and they played a great game. Very tough in their building.

Is Ryan back yet? This team needs him in the worst way. I'm sorry but you can't put guys like Thornton and Hairston out on the floor for that much time and expect to compete w/ better teams.

Next play. Next game. But if they don't bring it on Saturday it could get ugly.

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 10:55 PM
UVa got away with murder, and the referee crew was an accomplice. Thornton was called for five reach-ins -- far less physical than his usual fouls and all stuff that UVa was doing all game long with impunity. Rasheed was called for a T when he dared utter the truth -- "All ball!" Mason was called for two offensive fouls that could be called ludicrous if they weren't so lachrymose.

Worst officiating of a Duke game since the 2004 Final Four against UConn -- and at least that game had bad calls against both teams.

sagegrouse

Absolutely agreed! Dead on accurate analysis of the zebras' performance, Sage. And, as an added benefit for me, nearly 20 years after graduating from Duke, I am still learning from my associating with Duke University and my fellow Blue Devils...I now know what lachrymose means! I'm going to find a way to use that in conversation tomorrow...

dyedwab
02-28-2013, 10:55 PM
Not sure I want to be Amile and Josh in practice tomorrow based on this quote from the presser, as reported by Laura Keeley

"We had zero offensive rebounds from that position, and that position isn’t blocked out"

CDu
02-28-2013, 10:57 PM
Well, that sucked. Congrats to UVa. This win probably puts them in good shape for the tournament, assuming they don't stub their toes the rest of the way. My thoughts:

- The three best players in the conference, right now, are Joe Harris, Erick Green, and Seth Curry. Harris has the total package. He can shoot, he can drive, he can move without the ball, and he can defend. Unbelievable performance from him.

- Not to be lost is that Curry had an AMAZING game offensively. He scored 28 points on only 14 FG attempts. Ridiculous. If only he'd had some help...

- Our guards need to do a better job of actually using the high screen. I saw about 57 cases of a big coming out to set the screen only to have the guard dribble 2-3 feet away from the screener. All that does is leave our bigs out of rebounding position without gaining any advantage for the dribbler.

- Cook had a solid shooting game tonight, but his PG play has really declined over the past few weeks. Tonight we really needed him to create off the dribble, but he just looked lost out there.

- Mason has had a strange season. At times, he looks like a worldbeater. At other times, he looks completely lost. He played a pretty poor game tonight, allowing multiple second-chance opportunities with lazy/nonexistent boxouts. Losing this matchup decidedly against a solid-but-not-elite big man is just one more chink in the armor of his case for Player of the Year. At this point, I feel like the three guards I mentioned above (and Larkin) are the guys with a shot.

- I wonder if Mason is a bit worn down. He's had to do the yeoman's work for weeks now, getting virtually no rest and virtually no help on the interior. In his last two road games against teams with talented bigs, he's looked overmatched. Perhaps he needs a break. Unfortunately, with Miami's phalanx of bigs, that's not coming soon.

- Speaking of rebounding, we got beaten on the boards by a TERRIBLE rebounding UVa team. UVa rebounded 9 of the 28 opportunities on their end (32.1%), while we rebounded just 2 of the 26 opportunities on our end (7.7%). Against a team as small as UVa, that level of dominance on both ends of the floor can't happen.

- I thought the color guy made a great point about going over the screen on Evans. Evans can't shoot. We should be ducking under every screen set for him. Force him to shoot a jumper or pass to another wing, but don't let him turn the corner and create a pick and roll situation. Yet we repeatedly had our guards going over the top of the screen, allowing Evans a clear path to the lane and a 2-on-1 against Mason.

- Bennett is a terrific coach. He has been able to get a team consisting of arguably 2 true ACC-caliber starters and a bunch of role players to being the 3rd best team in the conference so far.

- It was nice seeing Kelly moving and even hopping a bit before/during the game. I feel much more certain that he'll play against VT, and I could see a scenario in which he plays against Miami. It's pretty clear we need his defense, ballhandling, and shooting. Otherwise, teams are just going to double Mason with impunity.

- Sulaimon got a tough lesson about ACC road play tonight. He had the toughest assignment he'll face all year in guarding Harris, and he had to do so on Harris's floor. It didn't go well for Sulaimon, and you could see him getting more and more frustrated as the game wore on. The technical was benign, but it was symptomatic of his constant complaining against the officials all night. There'll be better days ahead for Sulaimon. Sometimes you eat the bear; sometimes the bear eats you.

- I liked the quick basket by Murphy after subbing in for Jefferson late. We didn't really go back to that, but I thought he provided the first penalty for UVa's doubling in the post. That probably needed to happen much sooner. Considering how small UVa played all game, it might have made more sense to go with Murphy at PF. Especially with how little Jefferson and Hairston gave us.

- We were pretty fortunate. Despite struggling mightily with stopping the dribble and despite getting badly outrebounded, we managed to only lose by 5. A big part of that was UVa missing lots of easy shots throughout (Jesperson especially) and couldn't convert some key free throws.

- The turning point in the game was late in the first half. Despite an atrocious performance for the first 10 minutes, we clawed back to down 1 with the ball and a chance to take our first lead with 3:44 to go in the half. Then, Mason threw a bad pass stolen by Evans who got a breakaway layup. A Plumlee jumper got us back to down 1, and a UVa miss gave us our second chance to take the lead. Unfortunately, Cook took an off-balance, rushed, 17 footer (missed). A Harris layup stretched the lead to 3. We went down and housted a missed 3, and UVa got it back. They missed, opening the door again for us to tie or cut to 1. Cook missed the layup, and UVa played volleyball on the other end, resulting in a made layup for Mitchell. We then heaved a desperation 3 that was off the mark. So what had the potential to be a 10-minute stretch in which we re-established our identity, we instead slipped back to a 5-point deficit at the half. Had we been able to push out to a 3-4 point lead at the half, I think we win. But just a few possessions of futility appear to have done us in.

- Really hope Kelly's return to the lineup goes smoothly. At the very least, we again have the flexibility to play Jefferson and Murphy as SF for stretches. We'll be again a team that can create mismatches. But the most important thing is that hopefully he brings back a calming presence that gets us confident in ourselves again.

heyman25
02-28-2013, 10:59 PM
It's pretty obvious that our rebounding has been the problem almost all year. Every loss (with the exception of the Miami game), we get just massacred on the boards. If Mason has a bad game rebounding, nobody else really steps up to fill that void. It's not a fatal flaw, because if we are shooting well, we can usually cover for it. Other than boxing out better, I don't think we can really improve that much in the rebounding area, we just don't have the muscle outside of Mason to do it against elite front court players.

We've had bad shooting nights before, (The UNC game and the first BC game weren't so great on offense) but when that happens AND we can't grab any rebounds, it's hard to compensate. When Ryan comes back, it will help the offense, hopefully enough to offset the team's inability to compete on the boards. I wish we still had Miles . . . he'd be exactly what this team lacks . . . a big, physical dude who scraps and bangs around inside the paint. Mason seems to be a little softer than his older brother.

I still think we're in as good shape as anyone else to win it all. Every team has major flaws this year.

Worst rebounding performance yet for this team and its February 28,2013.Plumlee's matador defense is lame. Hairston and Jefferson were awful on the boards.Nobody boxes out.
Glad we showed some fire at the end but too little too late. Curry and Cook are two tough ballers.The rest of the team better get ready, because Miami may steamroll Duke again if the other six guys that play don't get better.

Meckler
02-28-2013, 11:03 PM
It stinks that this pretty much ends the ACC regular season title race, but this loss isn't so bad. First, Seth Curry continues to show that he is one of the most lethal scorers in the nation. He kept us within striking range the entire game with his scoring. Second, while Plumlee may not have put up good numbers for himself, I think it must've been hard to do that when he would get mauled by Virginia every possession and then get called for "hooks" whenever he did get the ball. Although, I did think he was caught sleeping on the defensive end a couple times (which ticked me off). Third, we just missed some open shots. Particularly at the beginning of the game. When we were missing those early shots I thought we could've been in for Miami Part II. I think we did a good job digging in after that and played fairly well.

But credit Virginia and Joe Harris. He played the game of his life and willed his team to a victory. Joe Harris, some questionable calls or no calls by the officials, and some missed open shots cost us the game. We played hard today.

Also, I was pleased to hear that Ryan Kelly had been looking awesome in practice. Hopefully that is true and transfers to his play when he finally returns. I think this team still has a lot of upside and will be exceptionally hard to beat on a neutral floor. Now lets beat Miami Saturday.

Is there really a neutral floor in the NCAA Tournament when Duke is involved? After last year's first round exit, if I were Duke, I would perceive ALL venues outside Cameron to be hostile and thus an away game. Duke MUST give all of there opponents their best shot...their "A" game. Otherwise, I can honestly see a 14 or 15 seed (with nothing to lose and the crowd behind them) beat an uninspired Duke team just going through the motions.

sporthenry
02-28-2013, 11:07 PM
Tough to not call Mason out after a game like this. With their lack of size, Mason should have had a field day like playing a mid major. Their C was 6'8. The problem with Mason is he seems to shy away from contact before getting the ball, then wants to create contact with the ball. Usually they allow more contact before the ball comes and it usually goes for the offense. But you can't double Mason if he catches the ball under the basket. And his defense is obviously affected by his offense.

Sheed looked tired. Everything was short and couldn't keep up with Harris. Hopefully just a bad night's sleep and not him wearing down.

Cook has to learn to stay positive.

Him and Sheed look completely rattled at times. Forcing shots early and then waiting around too much at the end of a shot clock. They are still young but nobody on this team seems to know how to feed the post and those bad shots along with TT gets Mason frustrated and he didn't even look to offensively rebound. But it would just be nice to see Mason get the ball when he is in position and not just during the motion offense.

vick
02-28-2013, 11:08 PM
Worst rebounding performance yet for this team and its February 28,2013.Plumlee's matador defense is lame. Hairston and Jefferson were awful on the boards.Nobody boxes out.
Glad we showed some fire at the end but too little too late. Curry and Cook are two tough ballers.The rest of the team better get ready, because Miami may steamroll Duke again if the other six guys that play don't get better.

Well, the offensive rebounding was the season-worst, but the defensive (which is where boxing out is most important) wasn't even close--we gave up 9 offensive rebounds vs. grabbing 22 defensive, or 29%. As I see it, that's actually 10th best in our 28 games so far. Now some of the ones we did give up were real head-scratchers--the one Harris got running around Plumlee stands out in my mind--but defensive rebounding was not really the worst part of this game, or even close to it, in my opinion.

sporthenry
02-28-2013, 11:10 PM
Is there really a neutral floor in the NCAA Tournament when Duke is involved? After last year's first round exit, if I were Duke, I would perceive ALL venues outside Cameron to be hostile and thus an away game. Duke MUST give all of there opponents their best shot...their "A" game. Otherwise, I can honestly see a 14 or 15 seed (with nothing to lose and the crowd behind them) beat an uninspired Duke team just going through the motions.

I don't see this Duke team allowing that to happen. As bad as they played tonight, UVA is pretty good and Duke never folded. Heck, if you think the refs gave them 5 points, Duke might have stole that game. Certainly, UVA played better but as bad as Duke played, they were still in it. Credit Harris for hitting a few tough shots tonight when Duke tried to get back in the game.

And this team still remembers what happened last year and I doubt any of them want a repeat.

dyedwab
02-28-2013, 11:12 PM
Is there really a neutral floor in the NCAA Tournament when Duke is involved? After last year's first round exit, if I were Duke, I would perceive ALL venues outside Cameron to be hostile and thus an away game. Duke MUST give all of there opponents their best shot...their "A" game. Otherwise, I can honestly see a 14 or 15 seed (with nothing to lose and the crowd behind them) beat an uninspired Duke team just going through the motions.

But it's not our opponents floor. We beat Louisville, VCU, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Temple on neutral floors this year. I would prefer that we have more true road games earlier, because I think we have to prepare for the unique hostility we generate at our opponents venue, but neutral sites are different.

Bluealum
02-28-2013, 11:18 PM
UVa got away with murder, and the referee crew was an accomplice. Thornton was called for five reach-ins -- far less physical than his usual fouls and all stuff that UVa was doing all game long with impunity. Rasheed was called for a T when he dared utter the truth -- "All ball!" Mason was called for two offensive fouls that could be called ludicrous if they weren't so lachrymose.

Worst officiating of a Duke game since the 2004 Final Four against UConn -- and at least that game had bad calls against both teams.

sagegrouse

I see a lot of griping about the refs and I'll admit yelling at the TV a lot. However, I will say that what Virginia did was bump A LOT. They didn't appear to be getting away with reaching in and hand slapping, which is what we started to do when we got frustrated. I hate the physicality of the game, but if crews allow bumping we have to adjust and bump back without reaching. I don't think we handled that well at all. I was way more frustrated watching Geogia Tech under Hewitt or Va Tech under baldy, as they weren't just physical they fouled and were dirty. I never got that sense from UVA tonight. They bodied us aggressively, the refs allowed it, and we did not body back. Mason who can be a real beast, never really used his frame and strength to push back and fight for rebounding position. He could have gotten away with a lot more physicality tonight.

What it comes down to is fight and verve. Mason did not bring it. I thought Rasheed did in the first half, but then he overheated and blew a gasket. I don't think the tech was for the one comment, he was quite demonstrative a few times. No need for that. Quinn and Seth brought it at the end, but we never had a team fighting together in this one.

They are a good squad, on their home court, and they were amped. We didn't bring the intensity to match theirs, I don't think we can blame the outcome on the refs. I think there are going to be a lot of teaching moments from this game. You could make a whole segment on just bad facial expressions, which K detests. Unfortunate we have such a short turn around really. If it were longer I suspect the guys would be dying to get back on the court after seeing all the breakdowns on film.

Either way I don't think it's a bad loss. Feels much less frustrating than Maryland. Hope Ryan is back Sat, and I hope we see the Ryan we are all hoping to see.

They key is to not lose 3 out of the last 4 heading into the tourney. We need the next game!

sporthenry
02-28-2013, 11:18 PM
But it's not our opponents floor. We beat Louisville, VCU, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Temple on neutral floors this year. I would prefer that we have more true road games earlier, because I think we have to prepare for the unique hostility we generate at our opponents venue, but neutral sites are different.

But those neutral sites are different. I wasn't at the tournament but it seemed like Duke had more fans than anyone else and it was in a dining room so there weren't many fans. Add in the game in NYC (northern Jersey) which is practically a home game for Duke. Only neutral court was versus UK in Atlanta. That is the closest thing to the NCAAT with 4 teams playing there. But all 4 of those teams probably hate each other equally. I doubt KU or MSU fans were rooting that hard for UK this year.

In the NCAAT, you'll get everyone rooting against Duke. Last year they had to play in Greensboro with UNC fans so obviously they were against Duke. Whoever plays in the 7/10 or 8/9 game would much prefer it not to play Duke. If we get Philadelphia, I don't think Syracuse or Georgetown fans hate us that much but if the other teams go on a run, they will definitely favor the underdog.

CDu
02-28-2013, 11:18 PM
Not sure I want to be Amile and Josh in practice tomorrow based on this quote from the presser, as reported by Laura Keeley

"We had zero offensive rebounds from that position, and that position isn’t blocked out"

Yeah, that's damning. When the opponent basically allows you free reign on the court, you should do something productive. Instead, those two combined for 28 min, 2 pts, 2 reb (0 oreb), 1 to, and 8 fouls. That's right - they fouled almost twice as much as they did anything else on the court. Gotta get more out of that spot.

It's just a strange situation. Neither Hairston nor Jefferson really provide a clear role offensively. Hairston can't dribble, score in the post, or shoot with consistency. And he has questionable hands and athleticism. Essentially, he'll limited to being a screener and then hoping defenses lose him under the basket for free layups. Jefferson is a bit more silky around the basket. He has the length to hit angled shots off the glass. But he's really lacking in strength, and he can't dribble or shoot with any confidence. Guys like this can tend to struggle to make an impact if the team defense is sound, and that appears to have been the case tonight.

The nice thing about Kelly's eventual return is that we'll now have 3 sub options that we can explore to give Mason or Kelly a break. We can go big with Marshall; we can go physical with Hairston; we can go sneaky baseline with Jefferson, and we can go perimeter-in style with Murphy. In brief stretches, any of these guys could give us a positive. Conversely, we're not forced to go to any of them for too long.

Meckler
02-28-2013, 11:19 PM
I don't see this Duke team allowing that to happen. As bad as they played tonight, UVA is pretty good and Duke never folded. Heck, if you think the refs gave them 5 points, Duke might have stole that game. Certainly, UVA played better but as bad as Duke played, they were still in it. Credit Harris for hitting a few tough shots tonight when Duke tried to get back in the game.

And this team still remembers what happened last year and I doubt any of them want a repeat.

I do see what you are saying but this UVA team is exactly what Duke could see in the first two rounds of the tournament. A team with a stud like Harris, a rebounder like Mitchell and then a bunch of role players who complete the team. Duke WILL face a team like this in the first round....you can count on it. If it was a best of 5, Duke wins, no problem. But in a one and done tournament, Duke has to play smart, aggressive and with MORE intensity them their opponent. Oh, and they need to do it six times!! ( ;

GO DUKE!!

dukeofcalabash
02-28-2013, 11:22 PM
This team should sing that famous song ..... "I left my HEART in Durham, NC"! Really, they must go into some type of deep sleep meditation moments before these games just so they can fall behind by playing with so little enthusiasm, effort, and ability. This is the first Duke team that I've watched in years that gives me the impression that believes it's just going to win games by walking onto the court. Kelly cannot make up the lack of leadership, the lack of intensity, or the lack of ability that the rest of the team is missing. Coach really has more work to do with this team than most any fan would imagine. Here's to hope.

jipops
02-28-2013, 11:23 PM
- I wonder if Mason is a bit worn down. He's had to do the yeoman's work for weeks now, getting virtually no rest and virtually no help on the interior. In his last two road games against teams with talented bigs, he's looked overmatched. Perhaps he needs a break. Unfortunately, with Miami's phalanx of bigs, that's not coming soon.


I wonder if there is something to this as well. He has averaged almost 35 minutes p/g for the season. In ACC play it's probably right up there close to 40. Being so easily pushed off the blocks may be a symptom as well as the lazy boxing out that we saw tonight. Still, we're talking about 2 poor games here among the last 7, both of which were on the road.

It's about to get even more difficult too.

OldSchool
02-28-2013, 11:25 PM
We’ve got to do a better job of passing when Mason is doubled. In that situation, we were not very good tonight. Our strategy needs to be more than just telling Mason to chuck it in the direction of the most open perimeter guy. The other big needs to work to make himself a clear target. We need to employ cuts to the rim by a guard to give Mason a passing target. We may need to use quick hockey passes to get it around to the unguarded perimeter shooter. Tonight, when Mason got doubled the other guys seemed too often to be basically just standing around. Mason resorted to trying to dribble around the double team (leading to a couple of fouls), although he did have a good move at one point splitting the double team.

sporthenry
02-28-2013, 11:26 PM
I do see what you are saying but this UVA team is exactly what Duke could see in the first two rounds of the tournament. A team with a stud like Harris, a rebounder like Mitchell and then a bunch of role players who complete the team. Duke WILL face a team like this in the first round....you can count on it. If it was a best of 5, Duke wins, no problem. But in a one and done tournament, Duke has to play smart, aggressive and with MORE intensity them their opponent. Oh, and they need to do it six times!! ( ;

GO DUKE!!

Well UVA is a 2nd round type team. Someone mentioned Lehigh happening again and that is a big difference between Lehigh and UVA. And even then UVA is a tough 2nd round match up if you believe Kenpom who has them at 16. 2nd round match ups seem to be somewhat about luck. But I agree, they could face a similar caliber team in the 2nd round. But that still beats a loss to a 14-15 seed.

burns15
02-28-2013, 11:31 PM
We haven't won a significant road game yet. I am hopeful the neutral courts will treat us better and a @UNC road win.

The 2010 team only had one significant road win, IIRC, and it was @ UNC, against a bad UNC team. If we never lose on a neutral court this year, I'll be perfectly fine with that :p

BlueDster
02-28-2013, 11:31 PM
Something that I really noticed in this game particularly, but has been a problem all year, is the poor use of screen on the perimeter. It seems 2-3 times a possession, Mason or others would go to set a screen and not even touch the defender, leading to the guard just kind of dribbling horizontally and a lot of wasted energy for everyone. Contrasting this with UVAs screens, where our players often bounced off the UVA player and were forced to switch or were 2-3 steps behind their man, the difference in quality of screening action was evident. Not sure who is to blame on this one, as sometimes it seemed Mason etc. would not really give a good effort to screen, and other times the ballhandler would not do a good job of running their man into the screen.

fgb
02-28-2013, 11:33 PM
tired of hearing how guys look tired. anyone ever been twenty years old? you wake up every day like it's your first.

really frustrating watching losses like tonight, and like the md loss, and like the bc win--simply being beat because the other guys seemed to want it more.

i don't hate losing, as long as we leave it all out there on the court. i haven't felt like we've done a lot of that this season, though. and, again, it could be a simple lack of leadership, which might be the key thing that ryan can bring with his return. our great teams have had that--dawkins, brickey, laettner, hurley, carrawell, james, battier, willliams, duhon, scheyer, kyrie--guys who just lead, simply by playing every play like it's the last time they're ever going to get to hold the basketball, the last time they're ever going to get to do this amazing thing that they love doing. there is a certain sense of desperation in basketball that is played at the highest level, a sense that the guys just don't want the game to end, ever. i haven't got that from this team, that they love playing the game that much, since ryan went down.

uva played like they love the game tonight; they deserved to win. i want that. i want us to play like we deserve to win.

OldSchool
02-28-2013, 11:36 PM
Something that I really noticed in this game particularly, but has been a problem all year, is the poor use of screen on the perimeter. It seems 2-3 times a possession, Mason or others would go to set a screen and not even touch the defender, leading to the guard just kind of dribbling horizontally and a lot of wasted energy for everyone. Contrasting this with UVAs screens, where our players often bounced off the UVA player and were forced to switch or were 2-3 steps behind their man, the difference in quality of screening action was evident. Not sure who is to blame on this one, as sometimes it seemed Mason etc. would not really give a good effort to screen, and other times the ballhandler would not do a good job of running their man into the screen.

To my eyes it's mostly on the guards. Given our thin front court we don't want to risk our bigs picking up fouls for moving screens. The guards need to use better angles to brush their man off the screen.

Billy Dat
02-28-2013, 11:38 PM
The turning point in the game was late in the first half. Despite an atrocious performance for the first 10 minutes, we clawed back to down 1 with the ball and a chance to take our first lead with 3:44 to go in the half. Then, Mason threw a bad pass stolen by Evans who got a breakaway layup. A Plumlee jumper got us back to down 1, and a UVa miss gave us our second chance to take the lead. Unfortunately, Cook took an off-balance, rushed, 17 footer (missed). A Harris layup stretched the lead to 3. We went down and housted a missed 3, and UVa got it back. They missed, opening the door again for us to tie or cut to 1. Cook missed the layup, and UVa played volleyball on the other end, resulting in a made layup for Mitchell. We then heaved a desperation 3 that was off the mark. So what had the potential to be a 10-minute stretch in which we re-established our identity, we instead slipped back to a 5-point deficit at the half. Had we been able to push out to a 3-4 point lead at the half, I think we win. But just a few possessions of futility appear to have done us in.

I pretty much agree with your whole post but especially this point. Had we taken a lead, things might have been different. Our possessions when we cut it to 1 were awful. After Curry's 3 to open the second, we lost our focus and started letting the officiating get to us, but it was really our inability to score that was the source of frustration.

Harris reminds me a lot of Gugliotta.

Every loss we've had, the other team has played with incredible intensity. State, Miami, Maryland and now Virginia - those atmospheres were electric. Add another court storm to the resume.

We're entering some weird territory with the reintroduction of Ryan. Let's hope it goes well, but we can't expect it to be easy. March is here.

1 24 90
02-28-2013, 11:41 PM
But it's not our opponents floor. We beat Louisville, VCU, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Temple on neutral floors this year. I would prefer that we have more true road games earlier, because I think we have to prepare for the unique hostility we generate at our opponents venue, but neutral sites are different.

Please remember that Duke was 8-0 on the road in the ACC last year. I know that doesn't help with the fact that the road record is 4-4 this year but these guys should know what to expect on the road.

Saratoga2
02-28-2013, 11:43 PM
This team should sing that famous song ..... "I left my HEART in Durham, NC"! Really, they must go into some type of deep sleep meditation moments before these games just so they can fall behind by playing with so little enthusiasm, effort, and ability. This is the first Duke team that I've watched in years that gives me the impression that believes it's just going to win games by walking onto the court. Kelly cannot make up the lack of leadership, the lack of intensity, or the lack of ability that the rest of the team is missing. Coach really has more work to do with this team than most any fan would imagine. Here's to hope.

We have seen the same rebounding issues and defensive lapses in a number of games this year. Is it that the coaches don't make adjustments, or is it the players who don't understand the need for improvements in key areas? To some extent, the coaches control the match-up areas and they are responsible for adjustments during the game. Clearly we didn't make adjustments or at least they weren't carried out by the players in those key areas in the game. Are they incapable of doing so physically or do they just not get it? (Guards too small, Jefferson too thin, Hairston too slow, Plumlee too preoccupied with avoiding contact)

I don't think the team played without enthusiasm or effort, what we did is misdirect our effort. It is difficult to see this team competing with Miami without a major shift on interior defense and rebounding.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 12:01 AM
OK, guys. I take full responsibility for tonight's loss after angering the weuxf gods with my brazen pre-game prediction. So much for my gut. I was really disappointed in our defense. Giving up 1.13 points per possession to this Virginia team is somewhere on the road to woeful.

On offense, I thought we made several poor decisions, but overall I didn't think it was as bad as a lot of other people around here seem to think. We did rush several shots, especially Rasheed, and we missed a bunch short because (other than Seth) we seemed to fade away on almost every shot. Though I'll credit Virginia's defensive play for making our shooters feel the need to rush and fade away.

I'll also credit Harris and Mitchell. In some ways I felt Mitchell was even more impressive than Harris, he just killed us on both sides of the ball.

Dino was right to talk about how far from the post Mason was setting up and how when he was doubled he dribbled away from the basket. Mason let Virginia push him around all game. Although two of the few times Mason tried to bull his way toward the hoop he got whistled, so I suppose maybe Dino wasn't right...


I do see what you are saying but this UVA team is exactly what Duke could see in the first two rounds of the tournament.

Pomeroy has Virginia ranked #16 in the country (before tonight's game). Although I suppose it's possible for us to see someone that good in the 2nd round, it more likely wouldn't happen until the third.


The other player we need to return is Quinn Cook the playmaking PG from The first 3 months of the year. Quinn Cook doing a Greg Paulus impersonation is OK. To be great, though, Duke needs a playmaker not another spot-up 3 point shooter.

Totally agree with this. Quinn had just 2 assists tonight and he's averaging only 3.0 for the past six games (and his a/to ratio for the last five games is a dreadful 0.8). Hopefully when Ryan comes back Quinn won't feel the need to shoot so much.


Mason was called for two offensive fouls that could be called ludicrous if they weren't so lachrymose.

Great word. Thanks so much for that, and the alliteration too.

Bojangles4Eva
03-01-2013, 12:09 AM
The 2010 team only had one significant road win, IIRC, and it was @ UNC, against a bad UNC team. If we never lose on a neutral court this year, I'll be perfectly fine with that :p

Every loss in 2010 was a true road game. We lost to Wisconsin in a very tough road environment, to NCSU, to (at the time) #17 GT, got our butts kicked by #11 Georgetown, and finally to #23 MD in a game that Vesquez willed into a UMD victory. Two of our losses this year were right after Kelly went down, the other two had some match-up issues with opponents that NEEDED to beat us to secure a good tourney resume (though MD dropped the ball of course). All of these losses have also occurred in ridiculously hostile environment which would be difficult to repeat in an NCAAT venue. Though we were clearly at a geographical disadvantage, I don't even think the 2010 elite eight and NC games were nearly as hostile as any of our 'L' road games this year.

Given these facts, while this game was not fun to watch, I tend to hold off on the premonitions of doom after losses like this, and keep a glass half full perspective on things...

COYS
03-01-2013, 12:10 AM
Hmm, for whatever reason, I'm not too upset about this loss. As has been mentioned before, UVA at home is basically an elite team. In the pre game thread, I mentioned that the way the refs call the game would go a long way toward determining how effective Uva's defense would be at stopping Mason. As it turned out, the refs style really favored UVA (allowing bumps and pushing on D and mercilessly punishing mason for any contact on the offensive end. Also how was an illegal screen not called the entire game? Baffling). On top of that, Rasheed and Quinn had poor games while Josh and Amile were almost invisible. Could Mason have done a better at handling the double team? Of course. Could Quinn have run the offense better? Yes. Could the whole team have handled the officiating and the frustration of watching Harris have a career night better? Most definitely.

But at the end of the day, UVA was a good team playing at home with their tourney hopes in the line. This was an upset in name only. As a point of comparison, Maryland was rated lower by KenPom at the end of the 2010 season when they beat us in college park. I wasn't upset about that loss either, other than the fact that I always hate it when duke loses.

I'm happy the team looked ticked off at the way the game went. I'm happy they were clearly frustrated. They hung in there and battled, despite the many mistakes they made along the way. Curry didnt get a single call to go his way, yet he still almost single handedly rescued the game. Now, what I hope to see is a focused and determined team ready to stick it to a team that embarrassed them the last time out. A big assist day from Quinn, a big performance for mason in the low post, and a healthy Ryan wouldn't hurt, though.

heyman25
03-01-2013, 12:15 AM
This team should sing that famous song ..... "I left my HEART in Durham, NC"! Really, they must go into some type of deep sleep meditation moments before these games just so they can fall behind by playing with so little enthusiasm, effort, and ability. This is the first Duke team that I've watched in years that gives me the impression that believes it's just going to win games by walking onto the court. Kelly cannot make up the lack of leadership, the lack of intensity, or the lack of ability that the rest of the team is missing. Coach really has more work to do with this team than most any fan would imagine. Here's to hope.

I agree with ability. Duke is always a top flight program, but its unfortunate that recruiting has been sub par for about six or seven years. Next class changes that issue. It is amazing how many wins this team has considering the talent level that Duke currently has.Great coaching can't always produce wins. Plumlee and 4 guys under 6'3 has to be playing perfect ball to get results. Loose balls seem to rarely go Duke's way lately. I just hope 2014 and 2015 classes stay at a higher level of talent than this team has.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 12:17 AM
This was an upset in name only.

Not even that, if you think about it. Someone in the pre-game thread said that at game-time UVa was favored by 1. So it was only an upset if you rely solely on the AP rankings, or I suppose the RPI.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 12:21 AM
I agree with ability. Duke is always a top flight program, but its unfortunate that recruiting has been sub par for about six or seven years. Next class changes that issue. It is amazing how many wins this team has considering the talent level that Duke currently has.Great coaching can't always produce wins. Plumlee and 4 guys under 6'3 has to be playing perfect ball to get results. Loose balls seem to rarely go Duke's way lately. I just hope 2014 and 2015 classes stay at a higher level of talent than this team has.

Huh? Duke's recruiting issued stopped several years ago and in reality, probably never happened. They missed a bit with McBob and Paulus who never materialized as much as we thought but after that, Singler, Scheyer, Gerald, Nolan, Kyrie, and Austin to name a few. This team has 2 POY candidates, a freshman who was perhaps the favorite for ACC ROY before tonight, Cook who is a bit of an enigma but has talent and then Kelly.

And that doesn't even bring up Amile or Murphy or MP3 who could turn out to be very good players.

COYS
03-01-2013, 12:24 AM
Not even that, if you think about it. Someone in the pre-game thread said that at game-time UVa was favored by 1. So it was only an upset if you rely solely on the AP rankings, or I suppose the RPI.

Ah, i didnt see that. Makes sense to me. While I always expect Duke to win, I definitely went into the game thinking that a spread favoring UVA by a little was more accurate than a spread favoring Duke. Even in KenPom where duke had a 52% chance of winning (basically a toss up), the numbers were skewed by the games we played with Ryan. Take away the games with Ryan and the percentage is probably more like 45% or even lower.

Duke 81 LA
03-01-2013, 12:25 AM
My observations.....

The recipe for Duke falling behind in games like these seems to be a determination to run the offense initially through Mason. That isn't working well. Seems to me Mason would be better AFTER we established our outside game.

Yes, it should get better if Kelly returns.

Josh shouldn't start. The offensive trough that he "brings" to the table puts Duke at too high a risk of the five minute drought. At least Amile can catch the ball and score if left alone. Josh is better being an energy guy off the bench.

Why wasn't any consideration given to putting Long Amile on Harris? The height advantage Harris had over Rasheed, and experience, was visible from the start.

Rarely do I feel the refs cost us one, but tonight I felt they did.

Rasheed was hosed throughout the game by the refs. On both new of the floor.

Cook put up a bunch of points but he had a poor first half. Too much aimless dribbling.

Boy the ref Ayres sure got a lot of airtime on ESPN thanks to Coach K.




Hmm, for whatever reason, I'm not too upset about this loss. As has been mentioned before, UVA at home is basically an elite team. In the pre game thread, I mentioned that the way the refs call the game would go a long way toward determining how effective Uva's defense would be at stopping Mason. As it turned out, the refs style really favored UVA (allowing bumps and pushing on D and mercilessly punishing mason for any contact on the offensive end. Also how was an illegal screen not called the entire game? Baffling). On top of that, Rasheed and Quinn had poor games while Josh and Amile were almost invisible. Could Mason have done a better at handling the double team? Of course. Could Quinn have run the offense better? Yes. Could the whole team have handled the officiating and the frustration of watching Harris have a career night better? Most definitely.

But at the end of the day, UVA was a good team playing at home with their tourney hopes in the line. This was an upset in name only. As a point of comparison, Maryland was rated lower by KenPom at the end of the 2010 season when they beat us in college park. I wasn't upset about that loss either, other than the fact that I always hate it when duke loses.

I'm happy the team looked ticked off at the way the game went. I'm happy they were clearly frustrated. They hung in there and battled, despite the many mistakes they made along the way. Curry didnt get a single call to go his way, yet he still almost single handedly rescued the game. Now, what I hope to see is a focused and determined team ready to stick it to a team that embarrassed them the last time out. A big assist day from Quinn, a big performance for mason in the low post, and a healthy Ryan wouldn't hurt, though.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 12:32 AM
I agree with ability. Duke is always a top flight program, but its unfortunate that recruiting has been sub par for about six or seven years.

In the past seven years (not counting the incoming 2013 high school class), Duke has recruited the following (all totals are cumulative):

Top 5: 3
Top 15: 7
Top 25: 13
Top 35: 17

PLUS, two guys (Alex and Andre) who were ranked around #15 before they re-classified, and a transfer who had led all Division I freshmen in scoring. If that's your idea of "sub par," I think your standards are a tad high.


Next class changes that issue.

Well, really, no it doesn't. Next year we're bringing in #2, #20, and #28 (interim rankings), plus a solid transfer who was #27 when he was a high school senior. Not very different from what we've done the past six or seven years, or actually maybe a little worse if you go by the numbers. So I guess you ought to prepare to continue to be disappointed.

heyman25
03-01-2013, 12:41 AM
In the past seven years (not counting the incoming 2013 high school class), Duke has recruited the following (all totals are cumulative):

Top 5: 3
Top 15: 7
Top 25: 13
Top 35: 17

PLUS, two guys (Alex and Andre) who were ranked around #15 before they re-classified, and a transfer who had led all Division I freshmen in scoring. If that's your idea of "sub par," I think your standards are a tad high.



Well, really, no it doesn't. Next year we're bringing in #2, #20, and #28 (interim rankings), plus a solid transfer who was #27 when he was a high school senior. Not very different from what we've done the past six or seven years, or actually maybe a little worse if you go by the numbers. So I guess you ought to prepare to continue to be disappointed.
No outstanding centers.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 12:42 AM
Irving and Singler could compare with Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavey, Carlos Boozer, Shane Battier, and Elton Brand.

Henderson and Smith maybe. Irving unfortunately played in 11 games. Rivers was a talent,but inconsistent. Getting Irving and complementing him with Thornton and Hairston is not a stellar class.When are we going to get a bad I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. in the paint?

It has been covered ad nauseam here but I'd imagine those centers don't exactly grow on trees. I'm sure one of these years they will. But it isn't completely fair to look at just 1 recruiting class. Thornton and Hairston haven't really been much more than role players. That'd be like getting upset that in 2003 we only got Luol and Lee Melchionni. Forgetting we already had JJ, Shelden, Shav, and Dockery.

Honestly, this team is as talented as any other team in the country. You can't expect them to get top talent every year, just look at UK and I don't think any of us want 5 1 and doners each year.

Sure, we are missing that winger. But from a recruiting standpoint, we have Murphy and Hood and had Gbinije. They would have been perfect on Harris although I guess Murphy's defense is still suspect.

And while we don't have a true banger, we still have an AA at the C spot, which I imagine only a few teams can boast. Every team has weaknesses and it is pretty absurd to cite Duke's talent as a fault.

noworries
03-01-2013, 12:46 AM
Quick thoughts that echo most of the others...

1. Performance of the ACC year from Harris.
2. Defense, especially in the first half, was a joke.
3. Watched Quinn on defense, and he was so lazy on screens. Looked flustered.
4. Poor body language from everyone, and K was on the officiating crew more than usual.
5. On that note, the officiating was an absolute joke.
6. Looked bored/uninterested.
7. Got there 40 minutes before tip and ended up 4 rows from the top of the building. By far the loudest I've heard JPJ this year.
8. As a long time Duke fan and now a UVA student, good to see UVA get a signature win but the allegiance to the Devils still won out. Pissed about the loss.

heyman25
03-01-2013, 12:46 AM
Not impressed with your analysis . I guess I will wait and see if Hood and Parker are as good as advertised!
That wanker quotes, must be from DBR.I could not get rid of it. Role players Thornton and Hairston were awful tonight.

-bdbd
03-01-2013, 12:53 AM
Starting and ending with the positive:

1. The game is over: I don't have to listen to Dino Gaudio for one second more. What a sing-song drone that guy is!

2. The game is over: I don't have to watch a totally incompetent officiating crew mess up a major college game. Bernard Clinton, Mike Eades, and Roger Ayers don't have a clue how to call a game. Hey, guys! Swim moves are legal -- hooks are not. Mason's swim move is taught at every college in the land. And did you see how they tried to make up for the imbalance in the last 2 minutes once the game was decided????

3. The final score doesn't make the game look as bad as it really was.

4. Joe Harris fouled out -- but not nearly soon enough.

5. We are one day closer to getting Ryan Kelly back on the court. May that happen Saturday.

6. Curry and Cook played well in a scramble mode the second half -- Cook was good in the first half as well.

7. Alex Murphy was perfection in the 1:30 he was in the game.

I can't think of any more positives.

sagegrouse

x10 !


I'm going to ref school! What is that, a one year associates degree? You don't even have to do your job well and you still get paid! Plus, its a great workout!

Seriously though, in my 30 years watching Duke basketball I've never seen refs THAT bad. It's one thing to call it bad both ways, but to literally give the game to the other team is another. I'm not saying they meant to do that, I'm saying that every important call went against Duke. I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

x100! I say throw out the tape, as this one was just waaay too affected by that ref crew. They ruined the game, so nothing of value to review.

But, to keep it as constructive as I can, you have to not let the bad reffing get into your head. We just didn't react well to those terrible calls.

I know it is overused phraseology, though I haven't used it, but THAT WAS THE WORST REFFED GAME I'VE EVER WATCHED END TO END.
Those guys were just plain incompetent, consistently so (and that's the ONLY thing about their calls that was consistent tonight)!! What gets me is, once you get to a point where the refs have blown about 5 calls in a row, and they've all gone one way, and one team has about 18 fouls while the other has about 7, at what point do the announcers start acknowledging the obvious re. how absurdly one-sided this is going. My impression was that, once that thin-faced ref screwed up several in a short sequence in the first half, and K started calling him on it, and the ref gets into a protracted stare-down with him over it, then that ref just plain lost it, and was then just in "I'll show him" mode, hunting for calls against Duke. I mean, geeez, a kid says "All ball" (and nothing more) after you whistle him once again for a phantom foul, and you're going to T him up for it??! Seriously??? That's just Junior-High level reffing.

Downright funny that TT was assessed his fifth foul with 8-1/2 minutes to go (though not a peep from the announcers about how early/unusual that was!) and Harris finally fouls out with just a minute to go. Harris is a physical player and was knocking guys down left and right, and setting repeated moving picks. Just plain funny.

Yes, our offense was incompetent. Of course it was helped along that path my tons of contact by UVA that went uncalled (see main paragraph above). We have GOT to be better at reacting to a team's clear defensive game plan. We seemed to be unable to adapt, to adjust our strategy as a result. In particular MP2 just didn't seem to understand what to do when UVA flashed double-teams at him. He didn't crisply pass it back out to the perimeter open shooters with any consistently, and didn't regularly re-establish his position on the low post. If I'm a coach, and my Center is "posting up" repeatedly with his foot touching the 3-point arc, at the next practice I make him run another set of wind-sprints for every one of those he committed.

It got to a point in the second half on D, where I was just taking bets on who would get called for what ticky-tack call on THIS possession... At least a couple of the calls, I swear, were whistled IN ANTICIPATION of Duke making contact, but before it actually happened. The defense looked terrible overall, and I think we just let those inconsistent refs get in our heads too much. **As Jay Will pointed out though, Rasheed really needs to fight through the picks (even if they ARE moving!) and not keep taking the short-cuts like that. An experienced ACC player like he "guarded" tonight will take him to task every time.**

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 01:05 AM
Not impressed with your analysis . I guess I will wait and see if Hood and Parker are as good as advertised!
That wanker quotes, must be from DBR.I could not get rid of it. Role players Thornton and Hairston were awful tonight.

What do you want? Duke has been in the top 10 for a remarkable stretch. Who has a more talented team than Duke with Kelly? Probably only a handful of teams in the discussion. And even without Kelly, Duke is still very talented.

I'm not sure what Thornton and Hairston have to do with it. They are the 6th and 7th men on the team. Do you want NBA talent on the bench? What top PF is going to sign with Duke when they would have played behind Kelly for 3 years? Those 2 guys have won Duke games this year and I'd get used to those type of players b/c they will be invaluable in the future of 1 and doners. I doubt UK fans loved Darius Miller but the senior had 13 points in their 8 point F4 win. And that doesn't even take into account what senior leadership provides.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 01:10 AM
No outstanding centers.

Well, our current center is probably going to be first team All America. Seems pretty outstanding to me. And we had a center on the 2010 national championship team who didn't score much but was a great defender and led the country in offensive rebounding. Plus another center (Miles Plumlee) who was a first round NBA draft pick. Again, your expectations appear to be out of whack.

But even if you were right that we haven't had any "outstanding centers," that hardly means our "recruiting has been sub par for about six or seven years," as you said in an earlier post. Over the course of the past seven years, our overall recruiting has easily been in the top five in the country. If that's not good enough for you, I think the problem might be in your mirror and not in Duke's recruiting success.

g-money
03-01-2013, 01:15 AM
A couple reasons not to get too upset over this game:

- UVa hasn't lost at home this year; in fact I think we played them closer than anyone else has
- Playing @UVa is a bit like playing @Wisconsin or @the Utah Jazz back in the pre-Donaghy era - as a visiting team, you had to know you would get hosed by the refs! (Of course, Cameron has its own advantages...)

With the way games are officiated nowadays in college basketball (i.e. "let them play", which leaves waaaay too much room for interpretation), the home court advantage is huge. At least we didn't lose to Penn State.

Now, what are the odds that NCAA tourney refs will be more consistent than ACC refs? Based on recent slugfests such as UConn's thrilling 53-41 Nat'l Championship win over Butler, I would say not good.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 01:20 AM
A couple reasons not to get too upset over this game:

- UVa hasn't lost at home this year; in fact I think we played them closer than anyone else has
- Playing @UVa is a bit like playing @Wisconsin or @the Utah Jazz back in the pre-Donaghy era - as a visiting team, you had to know you would get hosed by the refs! (Of course, Cameron has its own advantages...)

With the way games are officiated nowadays in college basketball (i.e. "let them play", which leaves waaaay too much room for interpretation), the home court advantage is huge. At least we didn't lose to Penn State.

Now, what are the odds that NCAA tourney refs will be more consistent than ACC refs? Based on recent slugfests such as UConn's thrilling 53-41 Nat'l Championship win over Butler, I would say not good.

Well apparently the refs are being advised more and more about calling the game tighter. I found the websites with their memo but was only able to read one before they wanted me to buy a login for $100. Not sure why I have to do that. Here is the link.

https://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/front/104883/Site/Posts

Not sure if it works for others. I found it while looking for the supposed memo about them cutting down on delay of game calls. Which on a tangent could hurt Duke since Mason loves to catch made baskets and throw it to the refs. If any of you can read the memos, I was amazed at the tone of the memos. They were pretty demeaning and pretty much called out refs constantly. But at least the guys in charge recognize the game is becoming unwatchable and that the block/charge call is still terrible.

g-money
03-01-2013, 01:31 AM
Well apparently the refs are being advised more and more about calling the game tighter. I found the websites with their memo but was only able to read one before they wanted me to buy a login for $100. Not sure why I have to do that. Here is the link.

https://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/front/104883/Site/Posts

Not sure if it works for others. I found it while looking for the supposed memo about them cutting down on delay of game calls. Which on a tangent could hurt Duke since Mason loves to catch made baskets and throw it to the refs. If any of you can read the memos, I was amazed at the tone of the memos. They were pretty demeaning and pretty much called out refs constantly. But at least the guys in charge recognize the game is becoming unwatchable and that the block/charge call is still terrible.

Great website, although I couldn't access the articles without a login either.

Funny quote from the Jan 21 memo on the main page: "Per 9-9-1a and 2a, there is still a 3 second rule in effect." It has been years since I have since 3 seconds called in a college game.

heyman25
03-01-2013, 01:49 AM
Well, our current center is probably going to be first team All America. Seems pretty outstanding to me. And we had a center on the 2010 national championship team who didn't score much but was a great defender and led the country in offensive rebounding. Plus another center (Miles Plumlee) who was a first round NBA draft pick. Again, your expectations appear to be out of whack.

But even if you were right that we haven't had any "outstanding centers," that hardly means our "recruiting has been sub par for about six or seven years," as you said in an earlier post. Over the course of the past seven years, our overall recruiting has easily been in the top five in the country. If that's not good enough for you, I think the problem might be in your mirror and not in Duke's recruiting success.

I am Done !Your arguments are valid, as well as sportshenry . I like guys playing well and competing. We do not have the depth in my arrogant opinion. They are still capable of winning it all by winning six straight games when the NCAA starts.However this team could also lose in the first round. I like what I see in my mirror.Thats why I watch Duke and went to school there and use the name heyman25. Condescending comments from Duke fans like yourself is typical of these message boards.I like 5 on a court that play well together

Neals384
03-01-2013, 05:46 AM
Same defense that BC used - rough up Mason continuously, double team him on every touch, and double anyone who tries to dribble penetrate. Have to attack that D the same way you attack a zone - quick passing, have someone at the high post, move the ball quickly and efficiently you will get an open look. Setting picks and dribbling around the perimeter is an inefficient method against this D. We will see more of this until the team figures it out.

dukelifer
03-01-2013, 05:54 AM
Same defense that BC used - rough up Mason continuously, double team him on every touch, and double anyone who tries to dribble penetrate. Have to attack that D the same way you attack a zone - quick passing, have someone at the high post, move the ball quickly and efficiently you will get an open look. Setting picks and dribbling around the perimeter is an inefficient method against this D. We will see more of this until the team figures it out.

Under usual conditions, Ryan's presence and passing would be a big help. If he can contribute - Duke will be better against that sort of D

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-01-2013, 05:57 AM
Same defense that BC used - rough up Mason continuously, double team him on every touch, and double anyone who tries to dribble penetrate. Have to attack that D the same way you attack a zone - quick passing, have someone at the high post, move the ball quickly and efficiently you will get an open look. Setting picks and dribbling around the perimeter is an inefficient method against this D. We will see more of this until the team figures it out.
Setting picks and not using them is an inefficient method against any defense. This is so basic but for some reason being overlooked. When Quinn casually slides by the high pick allowing his defender plenty of room to stick with him, he's accomplished nothing more than dribbling to one side. It doesn't slow the defender so that he must either give chase from behind or drop below the pick. And it does not allow Plumlee (or whomever) to free himself up because his defender is not forced to make any sort of play on the ball. It's simple pick and roll basketball concepts and we're just not executing it - as opposed to UVA who executed it perfectly all night last night. Think about how many times their point drove his defender into the high screen and then try to think of one instance where we did the same. If someone would just show Quinn on tape, he has plenty enough ability to set his man up and use the screen properly. It would help. I think. But what do I know?

comdytrd
03-01-2013, 06:02 AM
I'm going to ref school! What is that, a one year associates degree? You don't even have to do your job well and you still get paid! Plus, its a great workout!

Seriously though, in my 30 years watching Duke basketball I've never seen refs THAT bad. It's one thing to call it bad both ways, but to literally give the game to the other team is another. I'm not saying they meant to do that, I'm saying that every important call went against Duke. I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

One commentator mentioned (twice) the Vegas oddmakers' unusual pattern of betting on this game. Like you, I feel there was something different about the officiating of this game. Something I likewise have not felt in decades of viewing Duke games.
:confused:

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 06:19 AM
I just saw Coach K's comments regarding playing on the road, losing, and having another team's fans rush the court. He is concerned for player safety. While that is a legitimate concern and tere is risk of injury or harm, wouldn't winning these games he is referring to ultimately cure the problem?

TKG
03-01-2013, 06:49 AM
Most concerning to me is the observation made by DBR on the site's front page:Virginia cleary outplayed, out worked and out hustled Duke. At this stage of the season - and with the number of upperclasmen we have playing significant roles/minutes - that is a difficult thing to read.

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 06:51 AM
I just saw Coach K's comments regarding playing on the road, losing, and having another team's fans rush the court. He is concerned for player safety. While that is a legitimate concern and tere is risk of injury or harm, wouldn't winning these games he is referring to ultimately cure the problem?

No need to be snarky. Obviously Coach K would like to win these games, but since Duke is not God and therefore will lose occasionally, it'd be nice if security could clear a path to the locker room. (I did notice there was plenty of security on the court, but apparently they were ineffectual or not positioned near the tunnel).

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 06:57 AM
OK, guys. I take full responsibility for tonight's loss after angering the weuxf gods with my brazen pre-game prediction.

Personally, I think you were just one game early with your statement. Now that we're past UVA, I think it'll hold true.

fuse
03-01-2013, 07:11 AM
If Mason is our best/most important player, then this game is a snapshot of what could look like a second round loss in the NCAA tourney.

Seth and Tyler were the only players (and perhaps Alex in limited minutes) that showed any heart.
Rebounding was atrocious- wait, make that nonexistent.

It is a hallmark of Duke basketball to be hungry for the ball and getting more loose balls than the opponent- not last night.

The turning point for me was when we were within one point. I think if we had been able to grab the lead, perhaps a different Duke team shows up for the rest of the game.

I will agree with others that Rasheed's pouting/complaining attitude backfired, but I have to give him credit that when nothing else was working early, he tried to put the team on his back with some driving baskets.

Tough loss but not unexpected. Here's hoping the team finishes the season strong.

dyedwab
03-01-2013, 07:13 AM
Setting picks and not using them is an inefficient method against any defense. This is so basic but for some reason being overlooked. When Quinn casually slides by the high pick allowing his defender plenty of room to stick with him, he's accomplished nothing more than dribbling to one side. It doesn't slow the defender so that he must either give chase from behind or drop below the pick. And it does not allow Plumlee (or whomever) to free himself up because his defender is not forced to make any sort of play on the ball. It's simple pick and roll basketball concepts and we're just not executing it - as opposed to UVA who executed it perfectly all night last night. Think about how many times their point drove his defender into the high screen and then try to think of one instance where we did the same. If someone would just show Quinn on tape, he has plenty enough ability to set his man up and use the screen properly. It would help. I think. But what do I know?

Mason's taking a ton of blame for last night's performance, and he wasn't all that good. But I also agree that we need Quinn to be better than he's been lately. I'll less points from him, if he gets more assists. At the beginning of the season ( and I realize that was with Ryan), one of the stats that K would frequently mention was the number of assists as related to field goals. The last few games, that hasn't existed.

Channing
03-01-2013, 07:18 AM
Its been mentioned but Rasheeds and Quinns body language needs so
e serious work. They look lime Tim Duncan out there complaining after every call. On more than one occasion I saw each of then complain to the ref while uva took off down the court. K works the refs better than anyone. Let him do that and you play ball.

dukelifer
03-01-2013, 07:23 AM
Most concerning to me is the observation made by DBR on the site's front page:Virginia cleary outplayed, out worked and out hustled Duke. At this stage of the season - and with the number of upperclasmen we have playing significant roles/minutes - that is a difficult thing to read.

This is the way Virginia wins by trying to out work you. They are a pretty average team - talent wise - but are fully capable of playing with anyone. Yesterday they fed off of Harris and the energy of the crowd. We will see how Duke comes back on Sat when they will have the crowd energy to feed from. I expect Rasheed to be fired up. It will be critical to set the tone early. This Duke team needs to play better as a team and Cook needs to be a playmaker. There is a chance that Kelly can help going forward and then we will see what Duke team emerges in a couple of weeks. This is anybody's tourney. It will be who is hot in two weeks.

Highlander
03-01-2013, 07:30 AM
tired of hearing how guys look tired. anyone ever been twenty years old? you wake up every day like it's your first.

really frustrating watching losses like tonight, and like the md loss, and like the bc win--simply being beat because the other guys seemed to want it more.

i don't hate losing, as long as we leave it all out there on the court. i haven't felt like we've done a lot of that this season, though. and, again, it could be a simple lack of leadership, which might be the key thing that ryan can bring with his return. our great teams have had that--dawkins, brickey, laettner, hurley, carrawell, james, battier, willliams, duhon, scheyer, kyrie--guys who just lead, simply by playing every play like it's the last time they're ever going to get to hold the basketball, the last time they're ever going to get to do this amazing thing that they love doing. there is a certain sense of desperation in basketball that is played at the highest level, a sense that the guys just don't want the game to end, ever. i haven't got that from this team, that they love playing the game that much, since ryan went down.

uva played like they love the game tonight; they deserved to win. i want that. i want us to play like we deserve to win.

Good point. The game that comes to mind is 2010 vs. MD when Vasquez went off. We played very well in that game, and it just came down to who hit their shots in the last minute. Vasquez hit a crazy one and we missed a good look. I remember feeling after the game that it wasn't a "bad" loss, and that if we played like that, we'd have a chance in every game for the rest of the year.

I certainly didn't feel like that last night. We got out hustled and out schemed. Maybe adding Ryan back will fix some of that, or maybe we peaked in December (again). At this point, the jury's out on that one IMO.

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 07:34 AM
No need to be snarky. Obviously Coach K would like to win these games, but since Duke is not God and therefore will lose occasionally, it'd be nice if security could clear a path to the locker room. (I did notice there was plenty of security on the court, but apparently they were ineffectual or not positioned near the tunnel).

I agree that a path to the locker room would be nice. But that's easier said than done. Tracking down an opposing team's coach and players amidst the chaotic atmosphere near the end of games when rabid fans are preparing to storm the floor or already are is difficult. It's a very dangerous situation for sure and I understand his concern. It's a lot to ask from a security force however. It's part of being a great program and losing on the road to teams that Duke should beat. I'm just saying if Duke would win more of these games, the problem's symptoms wouldn't be felt as heavily in my opinion.

davekay1971
03-01-2013, 07:38 AM
I just saw Coach K's comments regarding playing on the road, losing, and having another team's fans rush the court. He is concerned for player safety. While that is a legitimate concern and tere is risk of injury or harm, wouldn't winning these games he is referring to ultimately cure the problem?

I'm reasonably sure that Coach K would prefer to win the road games. Unlike many Duke fans, however, he seems to recognize a few points of reality:

1) There is another team on the court that really wants to win
2) That other team has good players
3) College teams are made up of young guys who sometimes play at an incredibly high level, and who sometimes don't have it on a given night
4) When the other team is a good team and they play at a level that your guys can't match, you might lose, no matter how much you want to win

Therefore, K realizes that, despite the fact that he might want to win every road game, it simply is not going to happen. And, since Duke has been the most successful college program in the country since 1986, bar none, people are going to get really really excited when they beat us in their house. So, the question of balancing student/fan enthusiasm vs. player safety becomes an issue.

However, why don't you email K and offer your suggestion that he could just win those road games. He might not have thought of that yet.

One more point: your last post that the problems symptoms "wouldn't be felt as heavily" by winning more road games is completely off base. People rush the court when they beat Duke because they rarely beat Duke. There are only three possible cures for the rushing the court issue: (1) Your suggestion - win all the road games; (2) improve courtside security to allow the teams to get off the court before the rush; (3) lose more road games so beating Duke becomes as ho-hum as, say, beating Maryland. I like your idea best, except that it's ludicrous. I don't like idea number 3 at all, but it's probably the easiest of the three to accomplish. Maybe, one day, we'll become an average enough program to not have to worry about people rushing the court when they beat us. So K's idea, idea number 2, is probably the best of the three options.

AtlDuke72
03-01-2013, 07:42 AM
Totally agree with this. Quinn had just 2 assists tonight and he's averaging only 3.0 for the past six games (and his a/to ratio for the last five games is a dreadful 0.8). Hopefully when Ryan comes back Quinn won't feel the need to shoot so much.



I don't understand the criticism in this and other posts of Quinn Cook. He scored 22 points on 8-17 shooting (4-9 on 3s). One turnover but only 2 assists. Take a look at the line for Hairston, Thornton, Plumlee and Sulaimon (last night only fpr him) and tell me who he was supposed to pass it to ? One post even said he played with no heart - did that poster watch the last few minutes as Cook and Curry by themselves almost brought Duke back? There were a lot of problems last night , but blaming this stinker on Cook is just wrong.

superdave
03-01-2013, 07:46 AM
- I wonder if Mason is a bit worn down. He's had to do the yeoman's work for weeks now, getting virtually no rest and virtually no help on the interior. In his last two road games against teams with talented bigs, he's looked overmatched. Perhaps he needs a break. Unfortunately, with Miami's phalanx of bigs, that's not coming soon.


I'll say this again - if Marshall was indeed a top 6 guy on our team in the pre-season, he should be getting 10 minutes a game now to spell Mason. Even 5 minutes would be nice. I'd rather have an aggressive Mason for 32 minutes than a luke-warm, foul-conscious Mason for 39 minutes.

Another thought about our efforts to close the lead last night - our full court pressure was pretty bad. That was disappointing because I thought we had the athletes and depth to pick up full court and change the pace of the game if need be. Did not work last night.

The Gordog
03-01-2013, 07:46 AM
Have at it!

sagegrouse

There was a psychological aspect to this game that I don't think anyone has mentioned: it must be awefully hard for our guys to practice with Ryan and then still not play with him. I think everyone was looking past this game to Ryan's return. Seth was a man last night, not so much the rest of them.

Having said that:
1. Quinn looked bad, lazy on D and poor execution on O. He was very efficient scoring the ball late, though.
2. Sulu was so worn out chasing Harris that he was ineffective on offense. I know he scored like mad against BC, but we should have been calling plays for Quinn much earlier - why do we always wait until too late to turn Quinn loose?
3. Mason played like he used to as a Soph. That one play in the middle of the second half when they missed a dunk but got the rebound 2 feet out was emblamatic. Mason bent and swatted for the ball instead of standing tall and blocking the darn shot. He had 5 inches on the guy for crying out loud!
4. I'm not going to Terp. We all saw some bad calls, just inexplicable/inexcusable, but we still should have won this game.

AtlDuke72
03-01-2013, 07:47 AM
I just saw Coach K's comments regarding playing on the road, losing, and having another team's fans rush the court. He is concerned for player safety. While that is a legitimate concern and tere is risk of injury or harm, wouldn't winning these games he is referring to ultimately cure the problem?

I had not realized that recruiting better, coaching perfectly and everybody playing their best every night would solve the safety issue.
Talk about missing the point . . .

Native
03-01-2013, 07:48 AM
I agree with K's comments on safety during court rushes — it's crazy out there — but I don't know why he'd make them.

I really hope he wasn't expecting any sympathy, because we sure aren't going to get it.

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 07:49 AM
I'm reasonably sure that Coach K would prefer to win the road games. Unlike many Duke fans, however, he seems to recognize a few points of reality:

1) There is another team on the court that really wants to win
2) That other team has good players
3) College teams are made up of young guys who sometimes play at an incredibly high level, and who sometimes don't have it on a given night
4) When the other team is a good team and they play at a level that your guys can't match, you might lose, no matter how much you want to win

Therefore, K realizes that, despite the fact that he might want to win every road game, it simply is not going to happen. And, since Duke has been the most successful college program in the country since 1986, bar none, people are going to get really really excited when they beat us in their house. So, the question of balancing student/fan enthusiasm vs. player safety becomes an issue.

However, why don't you email K and offer your suggestion that he could just win those road games. He might not have thought of that yet.

No question, teams are pumped to beat Duke given the success of Duke's program. I get that. Obviously Duke won't win every road game either. I will be the first to admit fan bases have taken the whole rushing the court thing too far and it is way over played now. It's frankly unoriginal an rather annoying. It is a safety issue, Coach K is right. Perhaps the ACC should adopt the SEC's policy of fining universities when their fans rush the floor after games? What my concern is, however, is that I have never really totally agreed with analysis such as Coach K's. I will not email him and he has superior basketball knowledge to me. I'm a nobody compared to him. My point is, though, that winning the game is the answer. Hen coaches get angry for what they claim to be another team running the score up on them in any sport, I get agitated too. If you don't want to get the score ran up on you, play harder! Do something about it! If you don't want the court rushed and are concerned with safety, winning more of these games would partially, albeit not totally, alleviate some concern.

What do I know though...

hillsborodevil
03-01-2013, 07:50 AM
Congrats to UVa. Harris is a special playa indeed.

I'm trying hard not to sound like a UNC fan - but officiating was atrocious.

I cannot fathom why a player doesn't recognize that if they are double teamed
then it must mean someone else is open. Also, as others have stated - why post up
15 feet from the basket? Just crazy.

IMO the most dissapointing aspect of this team is blocking out. An extremely simple concept
and rebounding basic.

One positive - Duke rarely loses back to back conference games. Beat Miami!

roywhite
03-01-2013, 07:51 AM
I agree with K's comments on safety during court rushes — it's crazy out there — but I don't know why he'd make them.

I really hope he wasn't expecting any sympathy, because we sure aren't going to get it.

I can't see why he should choose to remain silent when an issue of safety for his players and his staff is at stake.

Court rushing has become ridiculous and dangerous. Not to mention unoriginal.

nocilla
03-01-2013, 07:54 AM
My point is, though, that winning the game is the answer. Hen coaches get angry for what they claim to be another team running the score up on them in any sport, I get agitated too. If you don't want to get the score ran up on you, play harder! Do something about it! If you don't want the court rushed and are concerned with safety, winning more of these games would partially, albeit not totally, alleviate some concern.

What do I know though...

Well I actually think that winning a lot of these games is the reason for the problem. If we had been losing more of them then the students wouldn't feel the need to storm the court. The fact that we don't lose very many is the reason that they storm the court when we do lose. There aren't many teams out there that win more than Duke, so saying that Duke needs to win even more games to alleviate the problem is totally offbase.

Matches
03-01-2013, 07:58 AM
I can't see why he should choose to remain silent when an issue of safety for his players and his staff is at stake.

Court rushing has become ridiculous and dangerous. Not to mention unoriginal.

K's not even saying we should get rid of court rushing. He's just asking that steps be taken to ensure the safe departure from the court by the visiting team and coaching staff. Seems pretty reasonable to me. It's an uncontrolled environment, and there's potential for something bad to happen. If that risk can be minimized without preventing the home team and fans from celebrating their victory, why not do it?

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 08:00 AM
Well I actually think that winning a lot of these games is the reason for the problem. If we had been losing more of them then the students wouldn't feel the need to storm the court. The fact that we don't lose very many is the reason that they storm the court when we do lose. There aren't many teams out there that win more than Duke, so saying that Duke needs to win even more games to alleviate the problem is totally offbase.

I'm not arguing the reason of the problem. I know why fans rush the court on Duke. It's party time when Duke comes to town. They're obviously gonna get everyone's best effort on the road. I'm not arguing there is a safety concern as well. But I am stating I don't totally agree with his comments. If we get a big man posting up in the post more, rebound better, shoot better from 3, and keep our cool without getting technical fouls and still lose, I think it is appropriate to question security measures regarding fans storming the court. I think everyone can agree Duke didn't play their best last night and didn't execute or march the level of effort or toughness UVA displayed. Perhaps a better topic to allocate Coach K's efforts and concern would be the team's execution, toughness, effort, post up skills in the post, shooting, facial expressions after fouls are called, communication, etc. that could perhaps lead to a win and we never have this discussion about fans rushing the floor last night.

Monmouth77
03-01-2013, 08:09 AM
I'm not arguing the reason of the problem. I know why fans rush the court on Duke. It's party time when Duke comes to town. They're obviously gonna get everyone's best effort on the road. I'm not arguing there is a safety concern as well. But I am stating I don't totally agree with his comments. If we get a big man posting up in the post more, rebound better, shoot better from 3, and keep our cool without getting technical fouls and still lose, I think it is appropriate to question security measures regarding fans storming the court. I think everyone can agree Duke didn't play their best last night and didn't execute or march the level of effort or toughness UVA displayed. Perhaps a better topic to allocate Coach K's efforts and concern would be the team's execution, toughness, effort, post up skills in the post, shooting, facial expressions after fouls are called, communication, etc. that could perhaps lead to a win and we never have this discussion about fans rushing the floor last night.

This is totally obnoxious. The way the team played has absolutely nothing to do with whether Coach K has a right to raise concerns about player safety during court stormings.

And Coach K did address his team's lackluster play. His comments were to the effect that he believed his team was prepared but that Virginia knocked them back with their superior execution and will to win. What else do you want him to say?

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 08:15 AM
This is totally obnoxious. The way the team played has absolutely nothing to do with whether Coach K has a right to raise concerns about player safety during court stormings.

And Coach K did address his team's lackluster play. His comments were to the effect that he believed his team was prepared but that Virginia knocked them back with their superior execution and will to win. What else do you want him to say?

I know he gave UVA credit and he should have. They thoroughly dismantled Duke last night. The game was never in much question from the start. I don't know what was said to the team regarding making adjustments but one thing I know could have been said to MP2 was post up on the block in a low position. Not straight up. This may have been said by Coach but I didn't see where it was being implemented by his team at all.

Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 08:22 AM
I agree with K's comments on safety during court rushes — it's crazy out there — but I don't know why he'd make them.

I really hope he wasn't expecting any sympathy, because we sure aren't going to get it.

lol, sympathy. OF COURSE it's not about that.

It's about the way the world works. You bring publicity to a safety issue. That publicity gets university lawyers, conference lawyers, and NCAA lawyers thinking about liability. That starts the ball rolling on getting changes made to improve the situation.

I guarantee you this. UVA will not have another issue with students obnoxiously blocking the path to the tunnel again.

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 08:23 AM
But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

Publicity gets lawyers thinking about liability, which leads to changes.

jv001
03-01-2013, 08:24 AM
Lot's of negative stuff:
Too much standing around, especially dribbling the ball and not taking advantage of screens.
Rebounding get's an F.
Mason's setting up way too high for the ball entry.
Guards(Quinn) picking up their dribble instead of the entry pass off the dribble.
Lack of on the ball defense. Let Evans shoot and stay with Harris better.
Nothing from the 3 & 4 spot.
Open shots rushed(Tyler & Rasheed).
Just did not seem prepared for VA style of play. ?????
Poor officating but did not cost us the game.
Once again Quinn not playing like a complete point guard(assists).
Sulking by Quinn and Rasheed.

Positive:
Seth Curry again showing he's one of the ACC and Nations best players.
Next Play! GoRyan and GoDuke!

hptaylor2
03-01-2013, 08:24 AM
I am watching the 9AM SC and see valid reason why Coach K voiced his concern of getting protection or having the players off the court first. . .

As the students begin to rush the court, there are two kids in orange shirts and khakis running towards mid-court when one of those guys, with dark hair, turns left and heads straight to the Duke bench and players. The security folks had not made it all the way out so the players and coaches are open to someone running up to them. This kid in question runs right up to Mason, places his hand on his back and says something to him. From the right, you see a coach, which I think is Wojo, turn back, say something to the kid and run him off.

To me, this is all the evidence K needs to get something done to keep all players, not just Duke players, safe during a rush.

davekay1971
03-01-2013, 08:24 AM
I know he gave UVA credit and he should have. They thoroughly dismantled Duke last night. The game was never in much question from the start. I don't know what was said to the team regarding making adjustments but one thing I know could have been said to MP2 was post up on the block in a low position. Not straight up. This may have been said by Coach but I didn't see where it was being implemented by his team at all.

Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

I get your point and, while I respectfully disagree with your solution, I understand that you feel the post-game conference may have not been the best forum to bring it up. I'm sure Coach brought it up because it was fresh on his mind and a reporter asked a question that led to it. He went out of his way to emphasize that he didn't want the rushing the court issue to be the focus of the conference or take away from UVa's win. K haters will call his comments "sour grapes" anyway.

I don't know if he has, or will, discuss the issue with Swofford. I think that would be a good idea. Rushing the court is fun, but it should be done after the teams have a chance to shake hands and leave the court.

jipops
03-01-2013, 08:26 AM
Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

Probably because he wants the discussion out there in the media which I'm betting is his whole point. It's a valid discussion. We see this many times every season for many teams across the country.

I also fail to see how player safety after the game is at all related to level of play during the game.

bedeviled
03-01-2013, 08:26 AM
I agree with K's comments on safety during court rushes — it's crazy out there — but I don't know why he'd make them


But I am stating I don't totally agree with his comments. If we get a big man posting up in the post more, rebound better, shoot better from 3, and keep our cool without getting technical fouls and still lose, I think it is appropriate to question security measures regarding fans storming the court. I think everyone can agree Duke didn't play their best last night

It appears that the reason he made the comments was not because we lost, but because there was an altercation(s). This story is being picked up in media outlets (http://www.foxsportscarolinas.com/03/01/13/Coach-K-has-to-be-restrained-from-Va-fa/msn_landing.html?blockID=871813&feedID=3736). Interesting to me, the topic is phrased as, "Coach K hurled F-bombs at Virginia fans," though I haven't actually seen quotes. To my mind, it could have been along the lines of, "get the <wanker-speak> out of the way!" or "let our <wanker-speak> players through" rather than cussing out or disparaging fans, though the article kind of presents a picture that Duke staff was instigating. Either way, it appears that something did happen, hence, the comments.

Indeed, the ESPN report (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9001926/duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-concerned-player-safety-fans-storm-court-following-loss-virginia) states, ""When we've lost in the last 20 years, everybody rushes the court," Krzyzewski said, as quoted by The Associated Press, insisting he was raising a concern but not trying to take away from Virginia's victory." Thus, it does not appear he made the comments as an excuse or distraction from our losing play.

And, notably, the first article quotes Coach K as saying, "“They should have fun and burn benches and do all the stuff … I’m all for that. They are a great school, great kids, but get us off the court, and that’s the bottom line.” So, his argument here is for safety, not for banning celebrations.

Matches
03-01-2013, 08:26 AM
Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

He was asked a question and answered it honestly. If he only addressed topics with reporters that reporters actually have control over, post-game press conferences would be quite brief. He's only likely to be asked a question like that following a loss, so any time he addresses it it's going to be in the context of a game where we got beat (and probably played less than our best).

For all we know he IS talking with Swofford offline. One doesn't preclude the other. I get the desire to avoid even the appearance of whining but if he responds with a "no comment" or something like that, then he's getting grief for not being forthcoming with the media (maybe not from you, but from someone undoubtedly).

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 08:27 AM
Publicity gets lawyers thinking about liability, which leads to changes.

According to Coach K, this type of concern has been manifesting for "20 years." He picks February 28, 2013 to start generating awareness via the media on this concern? Just out of place to me, but if you say so...

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 08:29 AM
I am watching the 9AM SC and see valid reason why Coach K voiced his concern of getting protection or having the players off the court first. . .

As the students begin to rush the court, there are two kids in orange shirts and khakis running towards mid-court when one of those guys, with dark hair, turns left and heads straight to the Duke bench and players. The security folks had not made it all the way out so the players and coaches are open to someone running up to them. This kid in question runs right up to Mason, places his hand on his back and says something to him. From the right, you see a coach, which I think is Wojo, turn back, say something to the kid and run him off.

To me, this is all the evidence K needs to get something done to keep all players, not just Duke players, safe during a rush.

Thanks for sharing this. You just knew there had to be an incident or several incidents that precipitated this discussion. The beat reporters noticed it and asked Coach K during the press conference. Coach K answered the questions and then graciously brought attention back to how well UVA played.

I mean, seriously. We know Coach K. The man is all class. If he is critical of something, you know there is good reason behind the criticism. Not just sour grapes or whatever the haters will believe.

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 08:29 AM
We lost by 5 points, but it wasn't really that close. UVA kept answering our runs, a lot of times with defensive break downs or offensive rebound putbacks.

No one was stopping Joe Harris tonight, but we also didn't do a lot to make him earn those points. Would have been nice for someone to play him physical, even at the cost of fouling out. The most disappointing part is that, if we slowed Harris down enough just to get him to his season average, we likely steal this game. Not win, steal. We didn't deserve to win.

Quinn Cook has regressed and progressed at the same time. He's shooting much better, but his decision making has gotten worse. There isn't as much balance to his game as there was early in the season... he seems too focused on scoring instead of getting everyone involved. Too much dribbling.

Mason goes in and out of these funks of passiveness. Some games, he's high energy. Tonight, he seemed a little lost. Several occasions, he didn't even bother going after a defensive rebound within his reach. Rarely challenged shots. I don't need Mason to block shots, because he would get into foul trouble.... I need Mason to use his 6'11" height and extraordinary jumping ability to at least BOTHER the shot. Just jump straight up in the air with your arms raised. Heck, RAISE YOUR ARMS, period. He finished with 3 fouls, all of them on the offensive end. Baffling.

I can't find much fault in Hairston or Jefferson's games because they disappeared. They have been our glue guys, along with Tyler. Guys you can count on to hustle to loose balls, get timely offensive boards, etc. We missed that tonight against a blue collar team like UVA.

I won't comment on the quality of the officiating because I did plenty of that in the in-game thread, but the nature of the calls got into the team's heads. That cannot happen. I've heard a lot of comparisons to the 2010 national championship team, but I don't see that. This team is much more mentally fragile than that team. The 2010 team was fully capable of playing ANY style of game, whether it was free flowing and offensive-driven, or bruising and dragging. I can't recall any games where the officiating threw them for such a loop that it affected their overall play. Maybe it's just revisionist history, but that 2010 team was much more mature. This team carries many of the bad habits last year's team did... not enough "next play."

Hopefully this doesn't carry over to the Miami game... Miami is pretty physical, too. Duke needs to be prepared for ANY type of game...

Native
03-01-2013, 08:30 AM
lol, sympathy. OF COURSE it's not about that.

It's about the way the world works. You bring publicity to a safety issue. That publicity gets university lawyers, conference lawyers, and NCAA lawyers thinking about liability. That starts the ball rolling on getting changes made to improve the situation.

I guarantee you this. UVA will not have another issue with students obnoxiously blocking the path to the tunnel again.


If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

This is more along the lines of what I meant. As a current Duke student, after seeing how inaccurate and biased the media can be firsthand (the "Grandma" incident) and how quickly stories like this (especially when Duke is concerned) can spread, I'd rather not give the press any more ammunition, which is all this does IMO.

I agree that it's a huge issue WRT player and coach safety and should definitely be dealt with; I just think a different approach would be more effective. And who cares about just UVa? What about Maryland? What about NC State? Big changes won't come about from a comment made in a post-game presser IMO. I think there are other, better ways to handle this issue than bringing it to the media, which as we've seen recently isn't always on Duke's side.

I think it's just way, way, too easy for ESPN, the N&O, or whoever else to spin this as "The only reason they're complaining about this is because they lost," which is exactly what the public will do anyway. It totally misses the point and is counterproductive to enacting change. That's all I'm trying to say.

Whatever, though. We have a big one on Saturday. Next play.

CameronDuke
03-01-2013, 08:31 AM
He was asked a question and answered it honestly. If he only addressed topics with reporters that reporters actually have control over, post-game press conferences would be quite brief. He's only likely to be asked a question like that following a loss, so any time he addresses it it's going to be in the context of a game where we got beat (and probably played less than our best).

For all we know he IS talking with Swofford offline. One doesn't preclude the other. I get the desire to avoid even the appearance of whining but if he responds with a "no comment" or something like that, then he's getting grief for not being forthcoming with the media (maybe not from you, but from someone undoubtedly).

I agree with that. That's fair. I just want to ensure it doesn't sound like the program is seeking sympathy, but I do want him to sufficiently answer questions without sounding forthcoming like you said. It's a fine line and heck, at least he was honest. It probably was at a time I was experiencing heightened emotions and obviously disappointed but it just didn't sit well with me.

Next play, we will need to move on quickly to beat Miami.

mapei
03-01-2013, 08:32 AM
I hate court-rushing against Duke as much as anyone else, and K's comments are right. I still wish he hadn't said them, because it will strengthen the erroneous perception of him as humourless and whiny. (Well, the humourless point may not be completely erroneous. ;) ) People hate Duke enough without giving them more ammunition. I've been listening to Mike and Mike while reading DBR and the whole show is about what K said.

I agree with the observations upthread that Mason looks tired. I get it that college-age young men "shouldn't get tired," but it doesn't take much in a highly competitive environment for one player to be a bit more tired than another and for that bit to make a bigger difference than you might think. I also agree that we force the offense through him too much. He was getting doubled every time (I didn't see the second BC game - damn ACCN - but it sure looked a lot like the MD game to me), and in a spot where it is really difficult to pass out, even if that were his strength, which never has been the case.

Is Ryan the answer? I hope so, and a lot of you seem to think so. But do we have any reason to believe he will make more of a difference than Kyrie did when he came back? I fear he may be less than 100% physically and out of sync with the team. He will help some, no doubt - I hope it's a LOT but my confidence level in that is not high based on what I've seen before.

Someone made the comment that it's a hallmark of Duke teams to hustle for loose balls and such. It used to be, but I'm not sure it still is. A decade ago, absolutely. But I think our team quickness in the last few years is a lot lower than it was back in the day. We used to get offense-from-defense with steals, too, but that doesn't seem our style recently, except for maybe a rare talent like a Gerald Henderson. Tyler and Rasheed do hustle, but I'm not sure I see it from others. The secondary break with a pass to JJ for a 3 was beautiful to watch, but that's not who we are now, even in 2010 when we won the NC.

As for the officiating, to some extent UVA got more calls because they attacked the basket a lot more than we did. But I agree that some calls against us were ticky-tack (the T on Quinn was likely a surrogate T on K). I saw Rasheed get literally bumped off the court and knocked down, with no call. Frustrating. Regardless, UVA was the better team last night.

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 08:33 AM
I am watching the 9AM SC and see valid reason why Coach K voiced his concern of getting protection or having the players off the court first. . .

As the students begin to rush the court, there are two kids in orange shirts and khakis running towards mid-court when one of those guys, with dark hair, turns left and heads straight to the Duke bench and players. The security folks had not made it all the way out so the players and coaches are open to someone running up to them. This kid in question runs right up to Mason, places his hand on his back and says something to him. From the right, you see a coach, which I think is Wojo, turn back, say something to the kid and run him off.

To me, this is all the evidence K needs to get something done to keep all players, not just Duke players, safe during a rush.

There was also the Maryland game where a fan two-hand shoved a member of the Duke team while rushing the court.

It is a valid concern. Some people say it's a sign of respect - I think it's a sign of disrespect. Opposing fans HATE Duke. That means they may take out their hate in physical ways.

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 08:34 AM
According to Coach K, this type of concern has been manifesting for "20 years." He picks February 28, 2013 to start generating awareness via the media on this concern? Just out of place to me, but if you say so...

Have you noticed that these court rushes seem to happen all the time now? Things have gotten worse, and yesterday was especially bad. You have your opinion (that's tied up in being snarky because you're angry that your team couldn't win last night) and I'm not going to change your mind. But my two cents is: I'm glad Coach spoke out. It will almost certainly lead to changes being made.

Matches
03-01-2013, 08:36 AM
There was also the Maryland game where a fan two-hand shoved a member of the Duke team while rushing the court.

It is a valid concern. Some people say it's a sign of respect - I think it's a sign of disrespect. Opposing fans HATE Duke. That means they may take out their hate in physical ways.

I see it as more silly than anything else. It's kind of sad to watch teams act like winning a home game against Duke in February is the greatest thing that's ever happened to them. Greenberg and his daughters crying at mid-court a few years back was probably the silliest example.

But whatever. They won. We don't get to tell them how they can celebrate. It's reasonable to ask that our players and coaching staff not be placed in physical danger, though.

Monmouth77
03-01-2013, 08:37 AM
I know he gave UVA credit and he should have. They thoroughly dismantled Duke last night. The game was never in much question from the start. I don't know what was said to the team regarding making adjustments but one thing I know could have been said to MP2 was post up on the block in a low position. Not straight up. This may have been said by Coach but I didn't see where it was being implemented by his team at all.

Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

His audience was not the N&O. It was the court of public opinion. And it obviously has not taken long (less than 7 hours) for his comments to dominate the morning sports talk news, the internet, and I am sure, some substantial portion of the Saturday telecast for every college game this weekend.

When Coach K talks, people listen. He has earned that.

If Coach K spent the entire press conference carping avout the officiating, you would have a point. But he didn't and you don't.

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 08:37 AM
I see it as more silly than anything else. It's kind of sad to watch teams act like winning a home game against Duke in February is the greatest thing that's ever happened to them. Greenberg and his daughters crying at mid-court a few years back was probably the silliest example.

But whatever. They won. We don't get to tell them how they can celebrate. It's reasonable to ask that our players and coaching staff not be placed in physical danger, though.

We don't tell them - but the SEC tells their fans. :)

I'd like to see a similar measure. It's played out and no longer has any meaning when fans do it every. single. time.

Troublemaker
03-01-2013, 08:42 AM
There was also the Maryland game where a fan two-hand shoved a member of the Duke team while rushing the court.

It is a valid concern. Some people say it's a sign of respect - I think it's a sign of disrespect. Opposing fans HATE Duke. That means they may take out their hate in physical ways.

Exactly. We need to step back and look at this from a macro/national/cultural perspective, too. I would say the dominant, most important story in life itself over the past year has been all the mass shootings around the country.

The bottom line is: people are crazier today than they were in the past. Or at least they are now acting out on their crazy more than before.

With Duke being such a hated program, I am constantly afraid of some nutjob in attendance sneaking in a weapon and going after one of our players or coaches.

The time to fix the safety issues around court-rushing is NOW. Not a week from now when some depressed, Wal-Mart UNC fan sticks a shiv in Wojo's back. (Not that they're going to have any reason to rush the court).

tele
03-01-2013, 08:43 AM
I get your point and, while I respectfully disagree with your solution, I understand that you feel the post-game conference may have not been the best forum to bring it up. I'm sure Coach brought it up because it was fresh on his mind and a reporter asked a question that led to it. He went out of his way to emphasize that he didn't want the rushing the court issue to be the focus of the conference or take away from UVa's win. K haters will call his comments "sour grapes" anyway.

I don't know if he has, or will, discuss the issue with Swofford. I think that would be a good idea. Rushing the court is fun, but it should be done after the teams have a chance to shake hands and leave the court.

Well there's the rub isn't it? On the one hand you have the two teams engaged in a display of good sportsmanship and on the other no regard for simple orderly conduct for the teams to leave the floor after the contest. If the host team cannot ensure order and safe passage for their guests, then why in the world should the visiting team after a loss care to shake their hands in some empty gesture that doesnt seem to be respected or regarded enough by the court rushers to be bothered with at all. It just becomes a gauntlet for the losing team and if the host coach can't manage the situation then perhaps it reflects more on their stature with their own fans than on the visiting coach or his post game comments. I don't remember this ever being a concern at georgetown or even george mason so it mustn't be a statewide thing.

Tough loss by the way and also you can't post up if you don't get passed the ball while you are in the post.

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 08:44 AM
3226

davekay1971
03-01-2013, 08:47 AM
It's played out and no longer has any meaning when fans do it every. single. time.

This is true. When Duke comes to town, if the other team's fans feel like they have a shot of winning, they show up in droves PLANNING on rushing the court if they win. They knew walking in the arenas at State, at Miami, at Maryland, and at UVa that if they won, they were rushing the court. Didn't matter that they State, Miami, and UVa all were, or should have been, favorites in those games. Fans aren't rushing the court because it's a monumental upset, which, once upon a time, was the only reason to rush a court. They're rushing the court because they beat Duke and that's an excuse to rush the court.

It's a twitter world moment - hey, we're going to the game because we've got a great chance at beating Duke this year and we're going to rush the court if we win. Be there yourself or read my tweets about it later.

Not to be a curmudgeon, which I'm turning into and I recognize that, but court rushing has become a ridiculous "tradition", not a spontaneous act of celebration. Since the students/fans are planning on it before they walk into the stadium, it's time for security to plan ahead to protect the Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Mich St, etc players who are in harms way.

Well, not the UNC scholarship players...Roy's got them in the locker room already. But those poor kids from Blue Steel deserve protection too. Right, Roy?

slower
03-01-2013, 08:49 AM
Seth and Tyler were the only players (and perhaps Alex in limited minutes) that showed any heart.

Nope. Sheed showed PLENTY of heart. He just finally wore down after getting hosed by the refs and smacked around all night long.

It was a perfect storm. For most of the game, most of our guys played without heart or brains. The refs definitely hosed us. At least Sheed CARED and got mad about it. I respect him MORE for getting pissed, instead of just passively taking it.

Wander
03-01-2013, 08:50 AM
It's easy to be against court rushing when you're a fan of Duke or Kentucky or Kansas. But I also waited my whole four years to rush the field at Wallace Wade, and never got to. Just let the kids have their fun.

davekay1971
03-01-2013, 08:56 AM
It's easy to be against court rushing when you're a fan of Duke or Kentucky or Kansas. But I also waited my whole four years to rush the field at Wallace Wade, and never got to. Just let the kids have their fun.

Not at the risk of the players on the teams. I was at Wallace Wade in 1989 when we finally beat Clemson. I rushed the field. I had a blast. I had no idea if the Clemson guys were still around or not. There was no harm intended by me or anyone I knew when we rushed the field.

But we shouldn't have been allowed to do it before the Clemson guys were off the field. Why in the world should we let a bunch of fans, thousands, surround college kids who have just suffered a tough loss? In the football game setting, is a Duke student likely to punch or shove a Clemson football player, in full pads? That would be stupid. But what if a Duke student taunts that same Clemson football player. K brought this up - the possibility of a fan SAYING something that elicits an emotional response from a player. Bam, student gets jacked, player gets suspended, maybe brawl breaks out. Why even allow that possibility? Then you add in, with basketball, that the players aren't in pads and some aren't so physically imposing that a drunk/crazy/idiotic fan isn't going to take a swing. Now you've got a player hurt...and maybe a brawl. Again, why allow that possibility?

Kids are going to "have their fun" when they beat one of their conference top dogs. It can wait 30 seconds for the players to clear the court.

uh_no
03-01-2013, 08:57 AM
But it's not our opponents floor. We beat Louisville, VCU, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Temple on neutral floors this year. I would prefer that we have more true road games earlier, because I think we have to prepare for the unique hostility we generate at our opponents venue, but neutral sites are different.

When in the tournament do we play at our opponents venue? All those games are at neutral sites....and even when we played butler in indy, it wasn't
the same as being on a teams home floor.

I'd rather we win games in the way that we'll need to in march, and that's just what it seems we've done.

CDu
03-01-2013, 09:03 AM
Is Ryan the answer? I hope so, and a lot of you seem to think so. But do we have any reason to believe he will make more of a difference than Kyrie did when he came back? I fear he may be less than 100% physically and out of sync with the team. He will help some, no doubt - I hope it's a LOT but my confidence level in that is not high based on what I've seen before.

The Irving/Kelly comparison keeps getting brought up, and I'm not sure I understand why. They are completely different scenarios. Kelly's game is entirely complementary. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands to make an impact on the game. His shooting touch from the PF spot (even if he doesn't take a shot) does several things for us:
1. Allows Mason to stay down low, rather than having to set high ball screens
2. Gives us a pick and pop option, which makes it harder to overplay on the screens (whereas Hairston, Jefferson, and Mason provide no such threat)
3. Creates spacing for Mason, because you can't have your PF leave Kelly to double in the post
4. Creates spacing for the other guards when they try to attack the basket.

Where Irving's return forced us to reconfigure the offense (because he was a lead guard and needed the ball to be effective), Kelly literally doesn't have to touch the ball to have a positive impact on the team's offense.

If he hits his shot, all the better.

And defensively, Kelly is a smarter defender than Hairston/Jefferson/Murphy. If he's healthy enough to play, then he's a huge upgrade there, too.

forbiddendonut
03-01-2013, 09:04 AM
If schools could just initiate a 10 second delay, it would make a huge difference. They could even put a countdown up on the monitors that students count down with in unison after the buzzer sounds.

This allows players to get to their sideline and a rope put up to cordon off the players/coaches with access to the locker room.

If people say this is unrealistic because nobody can hold back this crazed wave of humanity, well... that is a better argument against court storming than anything I can write.

mapei
03-01-2013, 09:08 AM
A number of things came out on M&M this morning. Almost all the commentary was in support of K, except for one guy Kavitch or something who used to be a coach. Even he wasn't all against K, but his basic position was "no big deal" with very little sympathy.

Apart from that guy, one important good point was to remind us of the Monica Seles incident. Very serious things do happen. Another good point was that, prior to the @Miami game, Larranaga apparently spoke to K and said, "if there's a rushing, let's don't go through the handshake line. Let's make sure your players are safe and get off the court." That was pretty astute and courteous of him.

dyedwab
03-01-2013, 09:24 AM
According to Coach K, this type of concern has been manifesting for "20 years." He picks February 28, 2013 to start generating awareness via the media on this concern? Just out of place to me, but if you say so...

No offense, but this is wrong. Coach K has brought up court security problems and fan behavior (under which the falls) for a really, really long time. He made comments about the Maryland crowd during the Boozer/Williams/Battier era, and has brought it up other times.

More to the point As documented by Bret Streslow of the Fayetteville Observer, of the last 50 Duke road losses, the court has been stormed 42 times. I will guarantee that there is no other program that is even close to that number of court rushings. So, its not like this is an uncommon problem.

This year, we have lost 4 road games, and each time the court has been rushed. Did K say anything after MD, Miami, or State? No. He did not. So perhaps there was something different and dangerous about last night that didn't exist in the 3 other court storms against Duke this year.

I would submit that the resolute anti-Duke atmosphere in college basketball actually makes these court storming more dangerous for Duke, and our complaints make them less likely to be taken seriously (a paradox, I know). But last night was bad and three other times this happened this season weren't. That's the simplest explanation for why K said what he did

DukeGirl4ever
03-01-2013, 09:28 AM
Haven't read through all the comments, but it seems like some negative stuff.
I've been a Negative Nancy all my life, so I'll refrain and try to keep positive.

I really like the way (some of) our guys fought at the end of the game. Our guys could have just put their heads down and we could have been blasted by 20+ points. We were in a hostile environment participating in a football game, and we did make it interesting at the end.

I can only hope that we take some things away from this game and make some adjustments. Of course having a certain 6'11 big guy back in the line-up may have a lot to do with that.

Praying for a big response against the Canes!

dyedwab
03-01-2013, 09:32 AM
When in the tournament do we play at our opponents venue? All those games are at neutral sites....and even when we played butler in indy, it wasn't
the same as being on a teams home floor.

I'd rather we win games in the way that we'll need to in march, and that's just what it seems we've done.

Honestly, neutral courts are less hostile environments for us, so I would prefer we played in more hostile environments before the tournament.

Like a hitter in the on-deck circle swing a heavier bat prior to stepping up to the plate to make his regular bat feel lighter when he steps up. Just my view (plus I like the atmosphere of team's home arenas - and I like quieting them down when we win). YMMV.

Kfanarmy
03-01-2013, 09:33 AM
Know the court was rushed last night, but can all the deep thinking about court rushing be put in another thread?

My Take:
--Harris couldn't miss last night, but he should have fouled out with more than ten minutes left in the game. He knocked two Duke players to the floor, by shouldering into them, while running down the court on offense mid way through the second half. There is NO WAY the referees didn't see it.
-- I'm not sure what happened to Mason. He looked like he was in a state of shock most of the game. It wasn't that he was slow in movement; he was slow in decision making. Time after time I think, every Duke fan in the nation had yelled "move," before it clicked in Mason's head to move. I get the frustration of being double teamed on offense, but if he had just stayed determined to guard the basket and opposing center on defense, I think Duke wins. I have no idea why he's trying to run out to the three point line to cut off a guard who has already passed a screener. There were long stretches in the game where he wasn't in a position to defend or rebound. When he is out of position, he jeopardizes the entire D.
-- There were two officials last night who were either wholly incompetent or purposelly calling a one sided game.

sagegrouse
03-01-2013, 09:40 AM
I had a different take from that of a number of other posters. Yes, I heard the comments about security for the visiting team after the game. But what struck me was the following comment (from memory):

"Virginia came out and played a very physical game. Our team is not built to play that way. All credit to Virginia for winning...."

Whoa! "Our team is not built to play that way!" Clear meaning: "Duke can never hope to win a game like this." Translation: "The refs let Virginia get away with mayhem." Further translation: "If we are going to play rugby, I'll recruit a different group of players."

K has rarely called John Clougherty, the ACC director of officials -- maybe only once. I expect John has received a call this morning.

Worst and most one-sided officiated Duke game I have ever seen, since maybe the Arizona highway robbery in 1991. We will see if there are repercussions.

sagegrouse

dyedwab
03-01-2013, 09:51 AM
I had a different take from that of a number of other posters. Yes, I heard the comments about security for the visiting team after the game. But what struck me was the following comment (from memory):

"Virginia came out and played a very physical game. Our team is not built to play that way. All credit to Virginia for winning...."

Whoa! "Our team is not built to play that way!" Clear meaning: "Duke can never hope to win a game like this." Translation: "The refs let Virginia get away with mayhem." Further translation: "If we are going to play rugby, I'll recruit a different group of players."

K has rarely called John Clougherty, the ACC director of officials -- maybe only once. I expect John has received a call this morning.

Worst and most one-sided officiated Duke game I have ever seen, since maybe the Arizona highway robbery in 1991. We will see if there are repercussions.

sagegrouse


i agree with this completely....and actually think this is of a piece with the comments about court storming. i think that the "Duke gets all the calls" meme has, over time, subtly affected officiating in our games, generally to our slight detriment, but sometimes explicitly, like last night. And its not just about the specific calls that are made or not - its about the style of play the refs allow. As someone upthread pointed out, UVA was never called for a moving screen last night. Given how they were running their offense, that they didn't commit a moving screen seems...unlikely. And the fact the Mason got called for 2 offensive fouls on swim moves, while as he was triple teamed, he wasn't held? Again, seems unlikely.

Anyway, all the caveats (we should play through it, its not why we lost, no whining, etc), this to me is a systemic issues, and issue we have downplayed, and one that I believe is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.

Just my view.

BlueDster
03-01-2013, 10:05 AM
Having watched part of the press conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeHWA8-u5P4

An important point I haven't seen brought up is that Coach K was asked about what happened after the game. He did not include his statements about court rushing in his opening statements, and only spoke about it in response to a reporter's question. The impression I got from articles and posters here was that they felt Coach K had come into the press conference with an agenda to address this issue, but perhaps he just took the opportunity given by a reporter's direct question to speak his mind truthfully.

mgtr
03-01-2013, 10:14 AM
Two points - Can't the ACC put an end to court-rushing? A fine of, say, $100K to $250K would end it forever, in my opinion. Or is the ACC a toothless tiger? Second, thinking back about the game, it seemed we had no real game plan except pass it to Seth. Thank goodness for Seth!

CDu
03-01-2013, 10:18 AM
I had a different take from that of a number of other posters. Yes, I heard the comments about security for the visiting team after the game. But what struck me was the following comment (from memory):

"Virginia came out and played a very physical game. Our team is not built to play that way. All credit to Virginia for winning...."

Whoa! "Our team is not built to play that way!" Clear meaning: "Duke can never hope to win a game like this." Translation: "The refs let Virginia get away with mayhem." Further translation: "If we are going to play rugby, I'll recruit a different group of players."

K has rarely called John Clougherty, the ACC director of officials -- maybe only once. I expect John has received a call this morning.

Worst and most one-sided officiated Duke game I have ever seen, since maybe the Arizona highway robbery in 1991. We will see if there are repercussions.

sagegrouse

Totally agree with everything you said except for the last sentences. The officials really did let UVa be very very physical with us, and that certainly was the difference. But I don't think this is a necessarily new thing. We've had road games before where the officials let the home team get away with mugging us (it's even happened in the tourney - see LSU 2006).

But the main point is dead on. Coach K said, in a sort-of-but-not-so-subtle way, the officiating is getting ridiculous.

moonpie23
03-01-2013, 10:23 AM
Or is the ACC a toothless tiger?

is unc's athletic program still clean?

Saratoga2
03-01-2013, 10:31 AM
Totally agree with this. Quinn had just 2 assists tonight and he's averaging only 3.0 for the past six games (and his a/to ratio for the last five games is a dreadful 0.8). Hopefully when Ryan comes back Quinn won't feel the need to shoot so much.



I don't understand the criticism in this and other posts of Quinn Cook. He scored 22 points on 8-17 shooting (4-9 on 3s). One turnover but only 2 assists. Take a look at the line for Hairston, Thornton, Plumlee and Sulaimon (last night only fpr him) and tell me who he was supposed to pass it to ? One post even said he played with no heart - did that poster watch the last few minutes as Cook and Curry by themselves almost brought Duke back? There were a lot of problems last night , but blaming this stinker on Cook is just wrong.

Very unfair to lay blame on Quinn as he played tough on ball defense and scored well. Was he screened off the ball? Yes, but it was Harris and the other big who did most of the damage and Quinn didn't guard those folks.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 10:35 AM
Last week, Sulaimon looked (to me) like the second coming of Johnny Dawkins-- even ran like him-- as he drove the lane for pullups, hit three-pointers, stole the ball on defense, etc... last night, he reminded me of the Johnny Dawkins, who as a freshman, was the lead player on an 11-17 team that got crushed by over 40 by both Louisville and Virginia (to end Duke's season with its worst loss under Coach K, IIRC)... it reminded me that Sulaimon is still a freshman, now, too...

Having said that, I can understand why Sulaimon got frustrated and out of his game-- about every other time down the floor, either the referees or his opponent (Average Joe) did something to add to his frustration-- you could see it building, when Sulaimon was driving to the basket, on a secondary fast break, and one of UVa's players clearly knocked his dribble away (and out of bounds), and the lead ref missed it-- and the trail ref either didn't catch it or didn't bother to correct the obviously missed call-- Sulaimon was looking around, throwing his hands up in disgust, as if to say "What the Sam Hell is going on around here?!!"... but he got not satisfaction... then, when Sulaimon ran through screens, chasing Joe, only to get there right as Joe sank a three-pointer-- again, Sulaimon threw up his hands in disgust... finally, Joe drives the lane, and Sulaimon gets called for a foul, he thinks he clearly had a clean block (and at worst a held ball)... sometimes, it just ain't your night (last night for Sulaimon)... and sometimes it is (VPI for Sulaimon, and last night for Joe).

Throughout the game, Joe got more than the benefit of the doubt when he drove (I thought one of the first plays of the game was a clear charge on Joe, but Hairston got the blocking foul, instead)... there were other instances with Joe, in the middle, in the first half, where Joe drove, and somebody-- Thornton, Cook, or Sulaimon-- got called for a foul where there appeared to be no contact whatsoever with Joe... contrast those phantom calls in Joe's favor with the physical mauling that Sulaimon and Cook took several times, when they drove the lane, and got no call, and you could see why Sulaimon was frustrated... Thornton and Cook were just as frustrated as Sulaimon (Cook was deservedly appealing for the foul call, on his made three-pointer, and never got it, and Thornton was slapping the floor in frustration, after he got called for another phantom foul, after being manhandled by a UVA big man) but Cook did a little better job of hiding it, and still playing his game (though Cook was out of sorts at times too, as noted by those who thought he failed to be a playmaker/distributor in this game)...again, sometimes, it just ain't your night.

fuse
03-01-2013, 10:38 AM
Nope. Sheed showed PLENTY of heart. He just finally wore down after getting hosed by the refs and smacked around all night long.

It was a perfect storm. For most of the game, most of our guys played without heart or brains. The refs definitely hosed us. At least Sheed CARED and got mad about it. I respect him MORE for getting pissed, instead of just passively taking it.

Fair enough- I'll grant that Rasheed game in and game out leaves it all on the floor. The not-quite Hurley level histrionics don't help him or anyone else though- he took himself out of the game with his attitude. I think Rasheed plays better mad, but it seems lately that it is a coin flip whether when things don't go his way he gets mad and gets better or pouts and becomes less effective.

fuse
03-01-2013, 10:41 AM
The Irving/Kelly comparison keeps getting brought up, and I'm not sure I understand why. They are completely different scenarios. Kelly's game is entirely complementary. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands to make an impact on the game. His shooting touch from the PF spot (even if he doesn't take a shot) does several things for us:
1. Allows Mason to stay down low, rather than having to set high ball screens
2. Gives us a pick and pop option, which makes it harder to overplay on the screens (whereas Hairston, Jefferson, and Mason provide no such threat)
3. Creates spacing for Mason, because you can't have your PF leave Kelly to double in the post
4. Creates spacing for the other guards when they try to attack the basket.

Where Irving's return forced us to reconfigure the offense (because he was a lead guard and needed the ball to be effective), Kelly literally doesn't have to touch the ball to have a positive impact on the team's offense.

If he hits his shot, all the better.

And defensively, Kelly is a smarter defender than Hairston/Jefferson/Murphy. If he's healthy enough to play, then he's a huge upgrade there, too.

The only downside (and someone may have mentioned this upthread) is it took a few games for Josh, Amile and Alex to get in the groove and get comfortable with their roles. I wonder if their tentative play last night was a form of uncertainty or looking over their shoulder wondering how their roles are going to change with Ryan coming back.

I 100% believe Ryan coming back will be great for our team but there could be some unintended consequences in terms of others taking a step back.

MattC09
03-01-2013, 10:43 AM
Totally agree with everything you said except for the last sentences. The officials really did let UVa be very very physical with us, and that certainly was the difference. But I don't think this is a necessarily new thing. We've had road games before where the officials let the home team get away with mugging us (it's even happened in the tourney - see LSU 2006).

But the main point is dead on. Coach K said, in a sort-of-but-not-so-subtle way, the officiating is getting ridiculous.

Seth mentioned how physical the play was too. The physicality of Virginia was the deciding factor of the game. We played poorly, but it's difficult when one team is playing basketball and the other is playing football. (Maybe that's UVa's best hope of their football team beating Duke?)

The first BC game was the same way. The game was so physical that Duke couldn't play it's game. Another Duke team, say 2010, could have dealt with it, but this team is more finesse than that team. The increase in physicality of the college game has helped bring scoring to record lows as well as tempo.

The BC game at home, however, was fairly well officiated from where I was in the grad section. If Mason got bumped, held, or pushed down low when being double-teamed, they called it. Tonight they ignored all of that. Instead of reining in the game early, they let the physical teams get away with lots of contact, bumps, hand-checks, holds, etc. because it happens so often that they refuse to call it. It's lazy officiating and is detrimental to the game.

College basketball will continue to suffer as long as officials let physical play go.

Saratoga2
03-01-2013, 10:52 AM
No one was stopping Joe Harris tonight, but we also didn't do a lot to make him earn those points. Would have been nice for someone to play him physical, even at the cost of fouling out.


Mason goes in and out of these funks of passiveness. Some games, he's high energy. Tonight, he seemed a little lost. Several occasions, he didn't even bother going after a defensive rebound within his reach. Rarely challenged shots. I don't need Mason to block shots, because he would get into foul trouble.... I need Mason to use his 6'11" height and extraordinary jumping ability to at least BOTHER the shot. Just jump straight up in the air with your arms raised. Heck, RAISE YOUR ARMS, period. He finished with 3 fouls, all of them on the offensive end. Baffling.

..

We tried defending Harris with Seth and then Rasheed. Neither did much good and both guys offense suffered while trying to guard him. We really didn't try to put Amile on him but why not use size and length. Amile is also a good athlete and he might have slowed him down. You could make the argument for Alex guarding him but in my view Alex plays hard but tends to run at his man defensively and that is a way get blown by. Having Amile in the game might have limited the offensive putbacks by Harris as well.

In my view, Mason has played soft defense since Ryan went out. He hasn't been challenging shots as he should not does he get into a solid rebounding position. No one other than Tyler blocks out, Mason included. Mason has been getting a lot of offensive fouls but few defensive fouls which is not what I would expect for a guy his size and with his athletic ability. I don't doubt his effort but do question how he is being utilized.

HaveFunExpectToWin
03-01-2013, 10:58 AM
I did. Isn't that the 2nd black eye he has sported this year?

...wish he earned those on the court with the big boys

What do you say to a backup center with two black eyes?

Nothing, you already told him twice.


Tough game to watch last night. I kept waiting for a surge to come with about 10 mins left, but we could only make a push at the very end. Hopefully we're not too gassed for the Miami game.

Saratoga2
03-01-2013, 10:58 AM
The Irving/Kelly comparison keeps getting brought up, and I'm not sure I understand why. They are completely different scenarios. Kelly's game is entirely complementary. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands to make an impact on the game. His shooting touch from the PF spot (even if he doesn't take a shot) does several things for us:
1. Allows Mason to stay down low, rather than having to set high ball screens
2. Gives us a pick and pop option, which makes it harder to overplay on the screens (whereas Hairston, Jefferson, and Mason provide no such threat)
3. Creates spacing for Mason, because you can't have your PF leave Kelly to double in the post
4. Creates spacing for the other guards when they try to attack the basket.

Where Irving's return forced us to reconfigure the offense (because he was a lead guard and needed the ball to be effective), Kelly literally doesn't have to touch the ball to have a positive impact on the team's offense.

If he hits his shot, all the better.

And defensively, Kelly is a smarter defender than Hairston/Jefferson/Murphy. If he's healthy enough to play, then he's a huge upgrade there, too.

While Ryan adds many benefits, rebounding is not his forte. We still need to address this issue before we become a threat for the final 4.

Matches
03-01-2013, 10:59 AM
College basketball will continue to suffer as long as officials let physical play go.

I feel like we're nearing a flashpoint on this, as there's an increasing amount of attention being paid to the notion that play has become overly physical to the detriment of the game. The declining profile of the sport is related, in part, to the ugly product that's on display a lot of the time. Tough D is cool but no one really wants to watch a wrestling match.

That's neither here nor there with respect to this season though, as there's unlikely to be any sort of course correction until the offseason. We're just going to have to play through it as best we can. I *really* wish Marshall hadn't had that foot injury in preseason, because I think he could have been that guy to be our enforcer. Not to play dirty, but to play physical within the rules and make sure we give as good as we get.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 10:59 AM
I don't understand the criticism in this and other posts of Quinn Cook. He scored 22 points on 8-17 shooting (4-9 on 3s). One turnover but only 2 assists. Take a look at the line for Hairston, Thornton, Plumlee and Sulaimon (last night only fpr him) and tell me who he was supposed to pass it to ? One post even said he played with no heart - did that poster watch the last few minutes as Cook and Curry by themselves almost brought Duke back? There were a lot of problems last night , but blaming this stinker on Cook is just wrong.

I don't think people are blaming the loss on Quinn so much as wishing he'd get back to being a point guard rather than a shooting guard. Very few PGs should be leading their team in shots (and Quinn took almost one-third of our shots last night). Mason only got 5 shots. Amile and Josh combined for just 2, and neither of them were from passes from Quinn (one pass from Mason, one from Tyler). Having Quinn dribble around a lot and then put up a shot makes Duke a lot easier to defend, even if Quinn makes almost half his shots.

I know without Ryan our offense sometimes seems short of offensive options, and I've read that Coach K told Quinn to be more aggressive seeking his own shot. But he doesn't have to be Allen Iverson. Our offense was worlds better when Quinn was looking to pass first. Hopefully when Ryan gets back to the court, Quinn will get back to being a PG.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 11:02 AM
I know this issue has been addressed innumerable times on this board-- defensive rebounding: Generally, the excuse given for Duke's poor defensive rebounding technique, is that Duke is so aggressively out on defense, overplaying to deny the passing lanes, that inevitably, Duke's players are going to be in poor rebounding position when a shot goes up...

While I am prepared to concede that the overplaying defense causes this problem occasionally, I don't think it even begins to explain the bulk of the instances where Duke gives up "bad" rebounds because of their defensive rebounding technique. I challenge anyone to go back and look at that UVa game from last night, and count the number of times where a single UVa player managed to slice through three, four, and sometimes even five Duke players, to get an offensive rebound, all because of Duke's poor defensive rebounding technique... it all comes back to players who do not think (and I am forced to assume this is because they are not coached to think) "block out", when a shot goes up-- time after time after time last night, a UVa shot would go up, and the Duke players would stand around ball-watching, while a single UVa player would knife through and grab the rebound, while Duke's apparently unschooled (or at the very least, asleep and/or unaware) players would just watch it happen. People want to blame it on Duke's big men (we had a discussion on here about Mason's lack of lateral quickness), but Mason, more often than not, DOES try to box out... our biggest problem is our ball-watching guards, who don't even seem to know (except for Thorton, who does it because he often has to guard bigger players) the meaning of the words "box out".

Sulaimon, Cook, and Curry are Duke's biggest offenders in this regard... I find it amazing that people are always picking on Wojo for how Duke's big men develop offensively-- yet I can't remember the last time anyone criticized our coaching staff for the way our guards play defense-- and this is an eminently coachable skill-- this isn't about people picking on Greg Paulus because he can't stay in front of super-quick point guards, out at the point of the defense (which was more a problem with Paulus' innate athletic gifts, or lack thereof, than with his technique...Cook and Curry have the same problem in that regard, by the way)... this is about something that every guard can (and should) learn how to do well-- but I rarely see a Duke guard doing it... Pathetically, last night, we had one instance where Thorton did try to box out an opponent-- only to end up boxing out his own man, as his own man (Cook or Curry) again failed to box out the UVa player behind him, thus allowing that UVa man to go around both of them (and Plumlee and another Duke player) to get the free rebound and score, one against four... neatly summing up Duke's defensive rebounding effort for the game. When are Duke guards going to learn how to do more than stand around and watch the ball, when a shot goes up?

gumbomoop
03-01-2013, 11:29 AM
.... it's ludicrous.

Sure you don't mean "lachrymose"?

Sagegrouse's observation [post 55] - "ludicrous if they weren't so lachrymose" - might profitably find a home as an addendum to Throatybeard's DBR Handy Pocket Reference [the link for which, btw, no longer seems to work in the Sticky -- and further which, spoiler alert, is the only useful info in this post].

Now I'm fairly certain sagegrouse cribbed his observation from Leonard Cohen, or John Prine, or possibly the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I'm willing to given him the credit, so long as he's willing to take it. Note, however, that the comparison, clearly a form of superlative [good, better, best; ludicrous, godawful, lachrymose], involves an awkward breach of etiquette, analogous to the infamous moment when Schwartz brazenly skipped from double-dog-dare, right over triple dare, and straight to triple-dog-dare. I will assume that, in skipping from "ludicrous" straight past "godawful" to "lachrymose," sagegrouse will have earned an infraction.

IMO, our boxing out last eve was much more godawful than was the officiating. Which seems to mean, perilously close to lachrymose.

Kewlswim
03-01-2013, 11:30 AM
Hi,

For many years (or at least since I've been a Duke fan) I've heard how it would be great if Coach K did more with his bench and how a few losses here or there would be fine if it meant the development of a deeper bench (if needed) for March. Well, in a "normal" season Alex Murphy does not see as much playing time as he has. Rasheed and Amile would probably see less action too. Quinn is learning to play under all sorts of conditions. Yesterday, well, Quinn looked a little out of sorts. To all those guys, I have one thing to say, better to learn now than in March. This leads me to Messieurs Plumlee and Kelly. I'll start with Mason. Son, you now have a good idea what a double, even triple team is like. There is tape on it. Your reaction to it does not look so good at times, but now you can learn from it rather than have it happen to you in a (for example) Sweet 16 game and be unprepared for it. Ryan, welcome back. Furthermore, they (you know, the people in the "know") say that Duke players are often tired in the Tournament because they have played so hard for a whole season. Well, you shouldn't be tired. You should have a full tank. With Ryan, Duke suddenly becomes deep and tested.

I personally loved how angry Sheed was, you could say Coach K was angry too. I like emotion. Now it is time to channel it. Amile, you have a lot of heart. I could see a little chip on that shoulder to boot. Actually, I feel the whole team has heart. Mason sometimes seems like he needs 40 winks or something, maybe his little bro can give him a mouse under his eye (you know Plumlee-like) to get him going, but I digress. I am a nervous, I want Duke to win so much. However, as I've learned along the way...you can't win them all. :( If this win wakes up the Devils and gets them going for March, then I say, "Woo-Hoo" (no, I didn't say Wa-Hoo). I thought the Maryland game would have done it, but sometimes a kid needs to be told and/or shown something a number of times before it is taken to heart. Also, I rather (not that I can choose) have the Devils lose to the Wa-Hoos and the Turtles and then go beat the Heels...if you get what I am saying. GTHC!

GO DUKE!

COYS
03-01-2013, 11:31 AM
I feel like we're nearing a flashpoint on this, as there's an increasing amount of attention being paid to the notion that play has become overly physical to the detriment of the game. The declining profile of the sport is related, in part, to the ugly product that's on display a lot of the time. Tough D is cool but no one really wants to watch a wrestling match.

That's neither here nor there with respect to this season though, as there's unlikely to be any sort of course correction until the offseason. We're just going to have to play through it as best we can. I *really* wish Marshall hadn't had that foot injury in preseason, because I think he could have been that guy to be our enforcer. Not to play dirty, but to play physical within the rules and make sure we give as good as we get.

There was a time when I actually preferred watching a random college game to a random NBA game. Those days are LONG gone. Obviously the quality of the players in the NBA is far better, but the product has actually become substantially better, too. There are two reasons for this. The early entry era has all but eliminated the days when you could watch the best college-age players for two, three, or even four seasons. However, the physicality of the game might have more to do with it than anything else. I preface this by saying that Duke 2010 benefited big time from the increased physicality of the college basketball. I'm sure opposing teams were battered and bruised from running into hard screens set by Zoubs and Lance as well as getting pushed around on the boards and grabbed while running around screens on offense. Those guys didn't give an inch. But they were a team that was built to play that way. By his senior year, Zoubs had the leg strength to use his massive frame to his advantage. Lance had gotten much stronger. Kyle was bigger than almost all college 3's. Jon was a senior (and the least physical of the group), and Nolan was strong for his position, as well.

However, on the whole, allowing a physical game often favors a team that might have less talent, but has more strength (though UVA has plenty of talent). Suddenly, basketball skills like dribbling, shooting, and passing are not valued as much as size and strength. There was but ONE push called on Mason's defender in the post, last night (and Mason got called for one, too, hilariously). The entire UVA game plan was built on literally pushing Mason out of the deep post. It happened every single play. While I still think UVA deserved to win and that Mason needs to learn how to deal with this type of defense (and quickly!), it doesn't change the fact that UVA essentially neutralized one of Duke's best weapons simply because they were allowed to push him around, literally. That's not good defense. That's just fouling. THeir trapping was excellent. They stayed home on three point shooters. This isn't a knock on UVA's defensive ability. It's just a comment that a big part of the defense was built on something that was once called a foul.

The same is true for the way UVA defended Seth. Seth got the JJ Redick-against-LSU treatment. Of course, he still got 28 points. But he should have had more and UVA players should have been in foul trouble. You shouldn't be allowed to neutralize a shooter by holding and bumping him when he comes around screens.

Again, I want to be clear that I'm not blaming this loss on the officiating. I think Duke benefits from physical play sometimes, as well. And, just as Coach K gets accolades for preaching charge-taking when the refs began to call that more, I applaud Bennett for implementing a defense that takes advantage of the way the game is called. But the end result is that the game is much uglier, the more skilled players are less able to use their skill to their advantage, and teams with physical strength can gain an advantage simply by their ability out weigh the opposing team. The Big10 and Big East (RIP) are famous for this style, but it has become the norm in the ACC, as well. I think that's too bad as it is becoming more and more difficult to play a free-flowing offensive style in the half-court.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 11:48 AM
I know this issue has been addressed innumerable times on this board-- defensive rebounding: Generally, the excuse given for Duke's poor defensive rebounding technique, is that Duke is so aggressively out on defense, overplaying to deny the passing lanes, that inevitably, Duke's players are going to be in poor rebounding position when a shot goes

I said it before and I'll say it again. Defensive rebounding wasn't that bad. The NCAA averages is 31%. We are slightly worse than average in both categories but that really shouldn't surprise anyone since we haven't had Kelly and don't have a true winger. That said, last night we gave up 9 offensive boards on 28 misses. Higher than our season average but only slightly. So not a terrible performance. Bigger issue was 2 offensive boards on 32 misses. Mason couldn't get any on a 6'8 guy and nobody crashed until Murphy came in. But I don't think offensive rebounding is a systemic issue but a player issue.

mkirsh
03-01-2013, 11:57 AM
Very frustrating game to watch as we couldn't get a rebound, break, or call. Can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for the players and coaches.

A lot of good comments already in this thread, but I'll add 2 more:

First, Gaudio, JayWill, and posters on this thread are killing Mason for posting so far from the basket, but I think that is only partially Mason's fault. There are plenty of plays where he posts strong on the block only to watch the guard look at him and then look away. Mason then loses patience and comes out to get the ball, which results in him catching 18 feet from the hoop. Mason needs to do a better job holding position, but he guards need to give him a reason to do so and deliver the entry pass on time.

Second, I don't think the team lacked heart last night as much as they lacked "togetherness", likely due to them letting the game's frustration get to them. On offense it resulted in a lot of dribbling around, bad shots, and very few assists; on defense our rotations and hedging on ball screens were nonexistent. Again a lot of folks critical of Mason's D, but defense is a team effort, and Mason was put into tough situations - do I contest the drive and leave my man (knowing that no one will rotate to help), or stick with my man and let the ball go - and unfortunately he tried to do both but ended up with neither.

Overall to me the game felt a lot like the first 39 minutes of the Gone in 54 Seconds game where we were taken out of everything we like to do. If we could have gotten a few stops when Curry was putting on his one man show in the last few minutes we might have stolen this one as well.

Rich
03-01-2013, 11:57 AM
I feel like we're nearing a flashpoint on this, as there's an increasing amount of attention being paid to the notion that play has become overly physical to the detriment of the game. The declining profile of the sport is related, in part, to the ugly product that's on display a lot of the time. Tough D is cool but no one really wants to watch a wrestling match.

That's neither here nor there with respect to this season though, as there's unlikely to be any sort of course correction until the offseason. We're just going to have to play through it as best we can. I *really* wish Marshall hadn't had that foot injury in preseason, because I think he could have been that guy to be our enforcer. Not to play dirty, but to play physical within the rules and make sure we give as good as we get.

Has anyone heard whether the NCAA considers this a point worth addressing? Usually there are rumblings in-season of things they want to address off-season, e.g., the charge arc under the basket. I haven't heard that the NCAA thinks this is something worth correcting.

slower
03-01-2013, 12:14 PM
Fair enough- I'll grant that Rasheed game in and game out leaves it all on the floor. The not-quite Hurley level histrionics don't help him or anyone else though- he took himself out of the game with his attitude. I think Rasheed plays better mad, but it seems lately that it is a coin flip whether when things don't go his way he gets mad and gets better or pouts and becomes less effective.

Last night was (hopefully) an outlier, a game SO rough and horribly officiated that, eventually, frustration HAD to come bubbling out of somebody. Certainly, it bubbled out of K. And it did so with Sheed, but even Mad Sheed wasn't enough to counteract the mugging he received.

As I said earlier, I have NO problem at all with him losing his cool. I'm honestly a little surprised that Tyler didn't try to send a few messages himself. And I know that many will disagree, but maybe that's going to be the way to draw the proper attention to this kind of play and officiating. If the refs allow things to get SO rough and out of hand that the players come to blows, maybe THAT is the light that is needed to illuminate the problem.

Seriously, it's an image thing. If our guys "take it" during the game and then we sit around and (rightfully) complain about it afterward, we come off as whiners and our players come across as being soft. If, however, they respond in kind to getting mugged, then at least they send a message that they will only tolerate so much crap. And honestly, I think that's important. Haters are gonna hate us anyway, so the least we can do is demand respect on the court. Otherwise, teams come into these games with an attitude that we can be punked, and that's exactly what they try to do. And sometimes it works very well, and it is obviously frustrating to our guys to have to "grin and bear it", as it were. What do you think Miami's gonna try to do tomorrow? And will you be surprised if, up big late in the game, they mockingly slap the court again? And what do you think Tyler might do in that situation? I'm just sayin'.

Do you think Laettner, Hurley, J-Will, Nate, Nolan or Kyle would have just kept getting pounded without SOME kind of retaliation. Yeah, you're darn right they wouldn't have. So, props to you, Sheed.

CDu
03-01-2013, 12:14 PM
Very frustrating game to watch as we couldn't get a rebound, break, or call. Can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for the players and coaches.

A lot of good comments already in this thread, but I'll add 2 more:

First, Gaudio, JayWill, and posters on this thread are killing Mason for posting so far from the basket, but I think that is only partially Mason's fault. There are plenty of plays where he posts strong on the block only to watch the guard look at him and then look away. Mason then loses patience and comes out to get the ball, which results in him catching 18 feet from the hoop. Mason needs to do a better job holding position, but he guards need to give him a reason to do so and deliver the entry pass on time.

I wouldn't put this is all on the guards, either. A major part of the reason that Mason didn't get many looks close is because UVa ALWAYS had a second defender in the neighborhood. They were willing to concede the past to the perimeter (and hustle back to challenge the shot), but they weren't going to let Mason get the ball in close. If we were going to get the ball to Mason, we were going to have to either work VERY hard to do it or he was going to have to come out to get it.

Sometimes, you just have to credit the defensive gameplan. While Gaudio and others were correct in assessing that Mason was getting it too far from the basket, I think they were failing to take the next step in identifying the problem.

Ultimately, the problem is that we gave UVa no reason to change their strategy. We didn't shoot them out of their pack line defense, and we didn't swing the ball quickly around the perimeter to create gaps in the defense. The pack line defense can be thought of as almost a zone defense. To beat it, you have to be strong with the ball, have good movement off the ball, and make quick, precise passes to catch the defense out of position.

Unfortunately, we didn't have a PF who could spread the floor, and the refs were letting UVa get away with very physical play on our cutters. And Cook/Thornton/Sulaimon were not doing a good job of actually using screeners. As such, we just weren't able to punish UVa's defense.


Again a lot of folks critical of Mason's D, but defense is a team effort, and Mason was put into tough situations - do I contest the drive and leave my man (knowing that no one will rotate to help), or stick with my man and let the ball go - and unfortunately he tried to do both but ended up with neither.

There were certainly cases where Mason was forced with a 2-on-1 situation. And in those cases, I agree that he should not be faulted. However, Mason should receive his share of the responsibility for not boxing out. This allowed several second-chance opportunities which resulted in scores. In a low-possession game, allowing easy offensive rebounds (especially to a team that rebounds as poorly as UVa) is unacceptable.

Mason also didn't do a good job of hedging on high ball screens. That left Harris with several open 3s. And it also made it easier for Evans to turn the corner and create those 2-on-1 opportunities in which Mason was the last line of defense.

The two areas of the game where Mason struggles most defensively are boxing out and hedging on screens. UVa exploited both of those weaknesses quite well last night. They are a VERY well coached team.

-bdbd
03-01-2013, 12:28 PM
I wouldn't put this is all on the guards, either. A major part of the reason that Mason didn't get many looks close is because UVa ALWAYS had a second defender in the neighborhood. They were willing to concede the past to the perimeter (and hustle back to challenge the shot), but they weren't going to let Mason get the ball in close. If we were going to get the ball to Mason, we were going to have to either work VERY hard to do it or he was going to have to come out to get it.

Sometimes, you just have to credit the defensive gameplan. While Gaudio and others were correct in assessing that Mason was getting it too far from the basket, I think they were failing to take the next step in identifying the problem.
Ultimately, the problem is that we gave UVa no reason to change their strategy. We didn't shoot them out of their pack line defense, and we didn't swing the ball quickly around the perimeter to create gaps in the defense. The pack line defense can be thought of as almost a zone defense. To beat it, you have to be strong with the ball, have good movement off the ball, and make quick, precise passes to catch the defense out of position.
Unfortunately, we didn't have a PF who could spread the floor, and the refs were letting UVa get away with very physical play on our cutters. And Cook/Thornton/Sulaimon were not doing a good job of actually using screeners. As such, we just weren't able to punish UVa's defense.



There were certainly cases where Mason was forced with a 2-on-1 situation. And in those cases, I agree that he should not be faulted. However, Mason should receive his share of the responsibility for not boxing out. This allowed several second-chance opportunities which resulted in scores. In a low-possession game, allowing easy offensive rebounds (especially to a team that rebounds as poorly as UVa) is unacceptable.

Mason also didn't do a good job of hedging on high ball screens. That left Harris with several open 3s. And it also made it easier for Evans to turn the corner and create those 2-on-1 opportunities in which Mason was the last line of defense.

The two areas of the game where Mason struggles most defensively are boxing out and hedging on screens. UVa exploited both of those weaknesses quite well last night. They are a VERY well coached team.

I pretty much agree with CDu's points. It was a good, effective gameplan by Bennett and UVA, made all the more effective by some horrible reffing that allowed a very physical game (playing to UVA's preferred style). But I was really disappointed that we didn't adjust more to that defense. I really expected to see Duke come out after halftime and see MP2 repeatedly post up low, the Guards repeatedly feed it to him in the low block, and once they flashed the double-team, to see Mason crisply pass to the open shooter. Very little of that happened with any consistency. This being Duke, I can't say that I'm surprised, but am pretty disappointed that more wasn't mentioned in the media about the impact of the "reffing" in this game too. Have you ever seen K so totally pissed-off at a group of refs as he was last night?? Nice protracted stare-down.... :rolleyes:

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 12:40 PM
First, Gaudio, JayWill, and posters on this thread are killing Mason for posting so far from the basket, but I think that is only partially Mason's fault. There are plenty of plays where he posts strong on the block only to watch the guard look at him and then look away. Mason then loses patience and comes out to get the ball, which results in him catching 18 feet from the hoop. Mason needs to do a better job holding position, but he guards need to give him a reason to do so and deliver the entry pass on time.

I agree with CDu's points on this and would add that another reason for Mason receiving the ball so far from the basket was because he was being pushed away from the basket. He could only push back for so long. After three seconds or so he theoretically has to briefly relinquish his position and the Virginia guys took advantage of that by pushing even harder, moving Mason a good eight or ten feet from the hoop.

Gaudio also pointed out that when Mason got the ball and the double-team came, he incorrectly chose to move toward the three point line and face up rather than bull toward the basket. I totally agreed with Dino until Mason tried twice to move toward the basket and got whistled for hooking both times.

InSpades
03-01-2013, 12:52 PM
I feel like we're nearing a flashpoint on this, as there's an increasing amount of attention being paid to the notion that play has become overly physical to the detriment of the game. The declining profile of the sport is related, in part, to the ugly product that's on display a lot of the time. Tough D is cool but no one really wants to watch a wrestling match.

That's neither here nor there with respect to this season though, as there's unlikely to be any sort of course correction until the offseason. We're just going to have to play through it as best we can. I *really* wish Marshall hadn't had that foot injury in preseason, because I think he could have been that guy to be our enforcer. Not to play dirty, but to play physical within the rules and make sure we give as good as we get.

Watching the game... I wanted to retaliate for the level of abuse our team was taking (and I was some 500 miles away). After Tyler got leveled on that screen I half-expected him to just go clothesline someone because that's what I would've wanted to do. Thankfully the team is a bit more level-headed.

Am I crazy about the moving screens? Look at the play at 55 seconds into the video clip on ESPN:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9001472&categoryid=2459792

How do you defend the pick and roll when the picker doesn't have to stop moving to set the pick? Maybe I'm just crazy, that game infuriated me a little bit :).

Mudge
03-01-2013, 12:53 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Defensive rebounding wasn't that bad. The NCAA averages is 31%. We are slightly worse than average in both categories but that really shouldn't surprise anyone since we haven't had Kelly and don't have a true winger. That said, last night we gave up 9 offensive boards on 28 misses. Higher than our season average but only slightly. So not a terrible performance. Bigger issue was 2 offensive boards on 32 misses. Mason couldn't get any on a 6'8 guy and nobody crashed until Murphy came in. But I don't think offensive rebounding is a systemic issue but a player issue.

The statistics of the defensive rebounds (giving up 9 out of 28, which is not particularly good) don't tell the whole story-- especially last night; even if every Duke player stays back, and boxes out somebody on each shot, and aggressively pursues the missed shot, Duke (or any team) is going to give up some rebounds on defense-- it's just the law of averages, and bad/unlucky bounces... but UVa did this last night without similarly crashing the boards with even three or four (let alone five) players-- UVa was totally playing to stop Duke from fast-breaking (which is typical for UVa, and why they are also generally a poor rebounding team), so they were dropping their perimeter players back, after a shot, to prevent any fast break opportunities-- UVa was beating Duke to more than a third of the rebounds on UVa missed shots, using only one, or at most two, players on most possessions-- they were just running right through the four or five Duke players around the basket, to grab those rebounds (and more often than not, put the ball back in the basket on a second shot)... it wasn't just the number of offensive rebounds that Duke conceded to UVa-- it was the egregious nature of so many of them, when the UVa players were totally outnumbered under the Duke basket (unlike what often happens in the Duke/UNC games, where UNC will often send three or four players to the glass, to try to tip in missed shots).

CDu
03-01-2013, 12:58 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. Defensive rebounding wasn't that bad. The NCAA averages is 31%. We are slightly worse than average in both categories but that really shouldn't surprise anyone since we haven't had Kelly and don't have a true winger. That said, last night we gave up 9 offensive boards on 28 misses. Higher than our season average but only slightly. So not a terrible performance. Bigger issue was 2 offensive boards on 32 misses. Mason couldn't get any on a 6'8 guy and nobody crashed until Murphy came in. But I don't think offensive rebounding is a systemic issue but a player issue.

When considering how bad a rebounding team UVa is, I'd say that allowing 32% offensive rebounds is somewhat bad. It wasn't nearly as bad as our offensive rebounding was, of course.

CDu
03-01-2013, 12:59 PM
The statistics of the defensive rebounds (giving up 9 out of 28, which is not particularly good) don't tell the whole story-- especially last night; even if every Duke player stays back, and boxes out somebody on each shot, and aggressively pursues the missed shot, Duke (or any team) is going to give up some rebounds on defense-- it's just the law of averages, and bad/unlucky bounces... but UVa did this last night without similarly crashing the boards with even three or four (let alone five) players-- UVa was totally playing to stop Duke from fast-breaking (which is typical for UVa, and why they are also generally a poor rebounding team), so they were dropping their perimeter players back, after a shot, to prevent any fast break opportunities-- UVa was beating Duke to more than a third of the rebounds on UVa missed shots, using only one, or at most two, players on most possessions-- they were just running right through the four or five Duke players around the basket, to grab those rebounds (and more often than not, put the ball back in the basket on a second shot)... it wasn't just the number of offensive rebounds that Duke conceded to UVa-- it was the egregious nature of so many of them, when the UVa players were totally outnumbered under the Duke basket (unlike what often happens in the Duke/UNC games, where UNC will often send three or four players to the glass, to try to tip in missed shots).

Bingo. UVa's gameplan every game is to prevent fast breaks. They've had games with virtually no offensive rebounds. They don't send guys to crash the boards. In spite of that, we STILL allowed them to get 32% of the offensive rebound chances.

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 01:05 PM
Bingo. UVa's gameplan every game is to prevent fast breaks. They've had games with virtually no offensive rebounds. They don't send guys to crash the boards. In spite of that, we STILL allowed them to get 32% of the offensive rebound chances.

Yep. I thought the lack of effort on the defensive glass was painfully obvious.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 01:07 PM
I agree with CDu's points on this and would add that another reason for Mason receiving the ball so far from the basket was because he was being pushed away from the basket. He could only push back for so long. After three seconds or so he theoretically has to briefly relinquish his position and the Virginia guys took advantage of that by pushing even harder, moving Mason a good eight or ten feet from the hoop.

Gaudio also pointed out that when Mason got the ball and the double-team came, he incorrectly chose to move toward the three point line and face up rather than bull toward the basket. I totally agreed with Dino until Mason tried twice to move toward the basket and got whistled for hooking both times.

I thought Mason was doing what he could do (and had to do), to get the ball-- and then doing what he had to do (as a smart player), once he got double- or triple-teamed... I think in at least some of the instances, Mason got the ball not that far from where he usually would, but was forced to move away from the basket by the aggressiveness and effective positioning of the two players trapping him-- he could either try to use brute force (and likely turn the ball over via offensive foul or losing the ball), or he could fade away from the pressure and try to find the open man-- which I think he tried to do early (e.g.- the first possession, where he passed out of the double-team, resulting in Sulaimon missing a wide-open 3-point attempt)... later in the game, Mason began to try to drive the ball (almost like a draw play in football), when he would fade back/dribble away from the lane, and the second UVa defender would desert Mason to re-cover his own man, and he had some success with this (usually drawing fouls under the basket)... I thought Mason did the best he could against a difficult defense (and given an officiating crew that pretty much let anything go on Duke's offensive end-- except trying to crawl around an aggressive post defender-- but seemed to be enforcing a virtual no-fly zone around Joe, at the other end).

bronston22
03-01-2013, 01:20 PM
I am new to DBR - good to be here.

I am not worried about the loss last night. We ran into a great player having the game of his life. More concerning is Mason's inconsistency. He has to play well for us to advance when it counts.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 01:24 PM
Honestly, neutral courts are less hostile environments for us, so I would prefer we played in more hostile environments before the tournament.

Like a hitter in the on-deck circle swing a heavier bat prior to stepping up to the plate to make his regular bat feel lighter when he steps up. Just my view (plus I like the atmosphere of team's home arenas - and I like quieting them down when we win). YMMV.

We need to play on tough away courts. It will help us deal with tourney pressure better than we have in the past. Let's face it, neutral tourney courts are always hostile to Duke.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 01:27 PM
The part that I liked best was that the commentators actually commented on the game at hand, instead of telling never-ending stories about things that happened years ago and ignoring the game.

Agreed-- Gaudio was great-- he struck exactly the right tone, recognizing what each team was doing well and badly... many here thought he wasn't a good coach (though he certainly had a good record, considering how badly he has been slammed for his coaching), but I'd venture to say that even the worst NCAA Division I coach knows more about how to analyze the game than every pure broadcasting play-by-play guy, the vast majority of us "never-weres"-- and probably the majority of ex-players that are used by networks, too. Gaudio (and Greenberg and Pearl) have all recognized Duke's lack of fundamentals on defensive rebounding in the past two weeks. Vitale could be a good analyst too (he once was a pretty decent coach)-- if he bothered to actually analyze each game, as it happens, instead of telling the same irrelevant anecdotes, using the same tired catch phrases, and slotting every game's action into his pre-conceived notion of what he thinks is going to happen. (I will admit that Digger Phelps' total lack of comprehension of what is happening/going to happen in a game tends to undercut my assertion-- I like to think of Digger as the exception that proves the rule, while I like to think of Bobby Knight as the paragon that proves the rule.)

Gaudio knows what's going on out there, and (having coached against Coach K) knows pretty much exactly what Duke is trying to do... I thought his story on K getting down on one knee to berate the refs was insightful, spot-on-- and pretty funny.

roywhite
03-01-2013, 01:29 PM
I am new to DBR - good to be here.

I am not worried about the loss last night. We ran into a great player having the game of his life. More concerning is Mason's inconsistency. He has to play well for us to advance when it counts.

Welcome to the board, and that's a reasonable point.

My overall take is that it was a tough loss and explainable in some ways by unusually good play from UVa and Harris particularly, and a game where officiating seemed to go against us.

Still, to win an NCAA Tournament, or perhaps even an ACC Tournament, Duke or any team would have to overcome those factors and stil find a way to win the game. Opposing teams can get hot and officiating can be uneven.

It mostly illustrates to me that a Duke team without Ryan Kelly has very little margin for error, and is just unlikely to reach the Final Four. A Duke team with a productive Ryan could possibly overcome the factors in a game like this, and win the game.

Sorry to make a point that may seem obvious, and sorry to be at the whims of the injury gods (again).

bronston22
03-01-2013, 01:31 PM
Defensive rebounding will remain a problem for us as long as we play an extended and aggressive man to man. The spectrum runs from a tight zone being the best rebounding defense to a pressure man to man being the worst. Coach K's bet is that he turns the opponent over and causes more missed shots more times than he gives up a defensive rebound and it is hard to argue with the general success of that strategy. Last night UVA wore us down during their possessions and then attacked the basket (also easier to do against man). All that leads to poor D rebounding.

This issue becomes very concerning against athletic teams - the kind we face in the tourney. I am worried my friends. I feel like I have read this story a few times too many.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 01:38 PM
sorry to be at the whims of the injury gods (again).[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the welcome and you summed it up well. We ran into a great one playing great and the refereeing did not favor our pressure defense. I think a healthy Kelly is a must for a tourney run.

The injury gods seem to always have a major say. Kyrie Irving and Kendall Marshall are but two examples of tourney snuffing injuries. Kelly requires an athletic big to defend him and allows Duke to dictate where he is on the defensive end. Sports is always about dilemmas and Kelly presents a huge one.

ncexnyc
03-01-2013, 01:41 PM
I've always been lukewarm towards Seth, but his play these past few weeks has reallly gotten me to rethinking how good a player he really is. He's shown a ton of heart and a willingness to put the team on his back. Great job young man.

Quinn has gotten some heat on this thread. His scoring has been great, but the body language and decision making at times has left me scratching my head.

Rasheed had his motor running on high, but the physical (rough) play finally got in his head.

Mason continues to be an enigma. As others have already mentioned, a world beater one day, soft and passive the next.

Josh and Amile both had really poor games, which was surprising. Since Ryan went down I don't recall a game where at least one of them didn't give us something positive. Do agree that maybe they heard footsteps.

Tyler had a bad game. For some reason his money shot from the corner seemed rushed as at least on two of them his footwork looked awful. Five fouls as well and he didn't get his monies worth on any of them. The fourth was a joke as Harris clearly slung Tyler to the ground.

I feel the staff made a mistake not switching Rasheed to Harris sooner and then once Rasheed got into foul trouble I would have loved for them to give a bigger Alex a turn on Joe.

Can't say anthing about Marshall except for noting the blackeye.

UVA has a solid team and a very good coach who seems very capable of getting his kids to buy into the idea of playing hardnosed defense. They played hard and gave it their all they deserved the win.

jcastranio
03-01-2013, 01:44 PM
...before posting my thoughts. While I always have on Duke-Blue-tinted glasses, I do consider myself a reasonable man. My personal reaction, K's reaction, Quinn's reaction, Rasheed's reaction .... etc. lead me to believe that I was seeing a bit of a "hose" job last night. Credit to Virginia. They did what was allowed for them and Duke couldn't adjust. Pushing, showing, kneeing, moving screens, holding - it was all there. Several times I thought we were going to overcome it - but it never quite happened. I remember in the first half Mason in position for a rebound with Joe Harris behind him. The ball came off to him, he didn't jump (sort of slumped forward), Harris grabbed the rebound and laid it in. Replay confirmed: Harris simply put a hand on him and shoved him forward just before he was to jump. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't hard to see, it wasn't even disguised. I would bring up more examples, but why? Stuff like that happened on every single sequence.

That said - we never could make the adjustment. We did get out-hustled. We did get rattled (Quinn and Sheed). What could we have done?

On offense, we could actually use the screens we set.

Mason, anticipating the double team that came every time, could quickly find the open man. I love Mason, but he is not an offensive machine. Him getting an immediate double team 12 feet out? Pass - there is little chance he will be able to make a scoring move.

Play someone at the 4 who can actually attack the basket. Great defensive game plan from virginia. Whoever was guarding Josh or Amile was disciplined and did the double team every time. They just left Josh or Amile open, knowing that we couldn't get them the ball and they wouldn't do anything with it if they get it. We probably should have played Mason at the high post for passing purposes (give him better vision). Him at the elbow, facing the basket and facing a double team, he could find the open man and the lane would not be clogged. If the double team dropped off, pass or drive.

We let the physical game and the uncalled fouls and the ridiculous foul calls on our end (compared to the wrestling match that Virginia was playing) get into our heads. Players and coaches. Good lesson.

I was impressed with Virginia. I would also like to see them again. Oh yeah.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 01:52 PM
I've always been lukewarm towards Seth, but his play these past few weeks has reallly gotten me to rethinking how good a player he really is. He's shown a ton of heart and a willingness to put the team on his back. Great job young man.

Seth was magnificent down the stretch last night and he has been a national class shooter for most of this season. I realize that things were a bit desperate when he really took over last night but it begs the question should we have gone to him in isolation earlier and more often. Scorers are hard to come by and Seth is one of them.

I think our season will come down to Seth's play in the tournament and Ryan's return. If both of those things go well we will make a run.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 01:58 PM
When considering how bad a rebounding team UVa is, I'd say that allowing 32% offensive rebounds is somewhat bad. It wasn't nearly as bad as our offensive rebounding was, of course.

UVA isn't a bad rebounding team. Defensively, they are one of the best. Offensively they aren't good but still at a 29% clip. I agree they don't throw everyone at the boards but if they get 1 less rebound, all of a sudden, we did better than our season averages, the ncaa average or UVAs average.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 01:58 PM
And point 3 is what really killed us on the offensive end. Every team can lay off our 4. So that guy needs to be crashing the boards as well. K focused on this aspect in the post game saying we really got nothing from this position tonight. Zero offensive rebounds from that position. Our only offensive boards came from guards for a grand total of 2. Facing the kind of defense UVA plays at home, we have very little chance of winning if there is no effort in that part of the game. Couple that with the constant struggles on defense and we had even less of a chance.

I hope that Kelly comes back ready and able to play well-- and a lot... this team is not good enough to beat really good teams with Hairston playing meaningful minutes... and I don't think it can do it with Jefferson playing much against good teams, either-- unless he is in there with the understanding that he can use up his 5 fouls in only 5-10 minutes of play-- which means that Kelly has to be ready and able to play well for at least 20 minutes/game (and hopefully more like 30-35), if this team is going to beat anybody good in the tournaments. I don't expect that Kelly will be able to go 30 right away (obviously), but after Duke's first round ACC and NCAA games, Duke is going to need 30+ minutes from Kelly (and no more than 5-10 from Jefferson, and hopefully 5 or less from Hairston) to beat a good team (unless somebody goes off like Sulaimon against VPI). Ideally, I'd like to see Kelly for 35 and Jefferson for 5, with (first) Murphy and (then) Hairston used very rarely (but only if both Kelly and Jefferson have foul trouble).

Mudge
03-01-2013, 02:09 PM
It's pretty obvious that our rebounding has been the problem almost all year. Every loss (with the exception of the Miami game), we get just massacred on the boards. If Mason has a bad game rebounding, nobody else really steps up to fill that void. It's not a fatal flaw, because if we are shooting well, we can usually cover for it. Other than boxing out better, I don't think we can really improve that much in the rebounding area, we just don't have the muscle outside of Mason to do it against elite front court players.

We've had bad shooting nights before, (The UNC game and the first BC game weren't so great on offense) but when that happens AND we can't grab any rebounds, it's hard to compensate. When Ryan comes back, it will help the offense, hopefully enough to offset the team's inability to compete on the boards. I wish we still had Miles . . . he'd be exactly what this team lacks . . . a big, physical dude who scraps and bangs around inside the paint. Mason seems to be a little softer than his older brother.

I still think we're in as good shape as anyone else to win it all. Every team has major flaws this year.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 02:19 PM
Vitale could be a good analyst too (he once was a pretty decent coach)-- if he bothered to actually analyze each game, as it happens, instead of telling the same irrelevant anecdotes, using the same tired catch phrases, and slotting every game's action into his pre-conceived notion of what he thinks is going to happen.

Some years ago I was flipping channels and came into the middle of a game on ESPN classic, from way back in the '80s. My friend and I remarked on how good the analyst announcer was -- smart, insightful, a little bit funny, everything you want when you're watching a college basketball game. Turned out it was Vitale -- I didn't even recognize his voice when he wasn't shouting -- before he turned into a caricature of himself. There was definitely a reason he became so popular (you know, before he became so unpopular).

bronston22
03-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Let's look ahead - I expect a typical Cameron rebound on Saturday. Miami might have been pulling for Duke last night just to keep the sleeping dog down. Looking ahead further and I get a little more nervous. We had a great run to the title in 2010 but other than that our tourney record of late has been poor by Duke standards. Am I the only one feeling a lot more pressure than usual to make a Final Four run this year?

I honestly worry that our style of play wears us out by year end. We are playing more players than usual this season and in a perfect world Ryan comes back healthy and fresh but we have got to improve. We have lost 4 of the last 13 games and with the exception of Miami we have not played a good team. I have always been a worrier and here we go again.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 02:32 PM
The spectrum runs from a tight zone being the best rebounding defense to a pressure man to man being the worst.

Actually, I don't believe this is true. Teams that play zone are generally not very good defensive rebounding teams. Syracuse, for example, has pretty much the same defensive rebounding this season as we do, and year in and year out is a below-average defensive rebounding team. Because when you play a zone it's sometimes hard to find someone to put a body on in a rebounding opportunity.

That said, the particular brand of man-to-man that Duke plays is similarly going to tend towards the poor side of defensive rebounding. It has to do with the way we try to push the perimeter out and jam the passing lanes and the way our defensive rotations work. Certain other kinds of man-to-man tend to be the best rebounding defenses.

nyesq83
03-01-2013, 02:35 PM
I can't believe we have to put up with all of this effing doo-doo, sure wish the guys had played better and the officials had called the game a bit cleaner, from what I have heard (though I did not watch since I work evenings).

Hope Kelly helps us win at least 4 more games this year. Just win, baby!

I expected 8 losses for this team by the end of the season, hope I am wrong. :mad:

vick
03-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Let's look ahead - I expect a typical Cameron rebound on Saturday. Miami might have been pulling for Duke last night just to keep the sleeping dog down. Looking ahead further and I get a little more nervous. We had a great run to the title in 2010 but other than that our tourney record of late has been poor by Duke standards. Am I the only one feeling a lot more pressure than usual to make a Final Four run this year?

I honestly worry that our style of play wears us out by year end. We are playing more players than usual this season and in a perfect world Ryan comes back healthy and fresh but we have got to improve. We have lost 4 of the last 13 games and with the exception of Miami we have not played a good team. I have always been a worrier and here we go again.

I know exactly what you're saying, and I don't think we're a likely Final Four team the way we've played over the ACC season (we'll see how the Kelly reintegration goes)--but this sentence made me smile. "Oh no, we've won barely two-thirds of our games without one of our top three players!"

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 02:40 PM
Am I the only one feeling a lot more pressure than usual to make a Final Four run this year?

What kind of pressure? Hard for me to imagine what would be "a lot more pressure than usual," or why it would feel that way.


We have lost 4 of the last 13 games and with the exception of Miami we have not played a good team.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "a good team." According to Pomeroy, 7 of those 13 games were played against teams in the top 64 of the country (Miami #13; UVa #14; UNC #29; NCSU #44; Maryland #64). Now it's true that of those 7 games we won 3 (the three home games) and lost 4 (the four road games), but other than maybe @Maryland an unbiased observer would have expected Duke without Ryan Kelly to lose most or all of those road games.

dball
03-01-2013, 02:40 PM
A couple reasons not to get too upset over this game:

- UVa hasn't lost at home this year; in fact I think we played them closer than anyone else has


Delaware beat UVA in JPJ earlier this season. That loss kept them from moving into the preseason NIT finals in NYC as had been expected. Really messed up their SOS.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 02:43 PM
I expected 8 losses for this team by the end of the season, hope I am wrong. :mad:

When did you expect this? That's a pretty negative outlook when we only have four losses now and just three regular season games remaining.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 02:54 PM
Actually, I don't believe this is true. Teams that play zone are generally not very good defensive rebounding teams. Syracuse, for example, has pretty much the same defensive rebounding this season as we do, and year in and year out is a below-average defensive rebounding team. Because when you play a zone it's sometimes hard to find someone to put a body on in a rebounding opportunity.

It is true but perhaps you missed the operative word "tight" in my explanation. Syracuse does not play a tight zone. To the contrary, they are remarkable the way they push their 1 through 4 to pressure the trey. A tight zone if played correctly will have three defenders within a few feet of the hoop at all times while the offense will flash players but rarely has more than one player near the hoop at any instance - simple math.

Zones also allow all defenders to ball watch. The still have man responsibilities but the focus is the ball and not the man. This is another rebounding advantage for the zone.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 03:01 PM
What kind of pressure? Hard for me to imagine what would be "a lot more pressure than usual," or why it would feel that way.

More pressure because we have underachieved in the tournament in recent years. It is great for most schools but not for mine. We have advanced past the sweet 16 one time in 8 years. I did not even believe that until I researched it.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "a good team." According to Pomeroy, 7 of those 13 games were played against teams in the top 64 of the country (Miami #13; UVa #14; UNC #29; NCSU #44; Maryland #64). Now it's true that of those 7 games we won 3 (the three home games) and lost 4 (the four road games), but other than maybe @Maryland an unbiased observer would have expected Duke without Ryan Kelly to lose most or all of those road games.

My definition of good team is more anecdotal. We are not exactly playing a Big Ten schedule.

CDu
03-01-2013, 03:01 PM
When did you expect this? That's a pretty negative outlook when we only have four losses now and just three regular season games remaining.

Depends on when you define the season's end. If we lose to Miami, @UNC, in the ACC tourney, and in the NCAA tourney, that'd be 8 losses.

Granted, that's definitely on the negative side. But it's only 1 game more negative than I'd think is a reasonable expectation.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 03:09 PM
A tight zone if played correctly will have three defenders within a few feet of the hoop at all times while the offense will flash players but rarely has more than one player near the hoop at any instance - simple math.

Outside of biddy basketball, who plays a zone so tight it has "three defenders within a few feet of the hoop at all times"? That defense still wouldn't get any defensive rebounds because the offense would never miss.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Outside of biddy basketball, who plays a zone so tight it has "three defenders within a few feet of the hoop at all times"? That defense still wouldn't get any defensive rebounds because the offense would never miss.

Actually any zone that does not push out the weak side defenders will have three near the hoop. For a good lesson on this, compare Syracuse's zone with the zone the Heels played last year. Two entirely different zones - one built for rebounding and protecting the middle and one for stopping the three and inviting interior passes against long arms.

mkirsh
03-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Actually, I don't believe this is true. Teams that play zone are generally not very good defensive rebounding teams. Syracuse, for example, has pretty much the same defensive rebounding this season as we do, and year in and year out is a below-average defensive rebounding team. Because when you play a zone it's sometimes hard to find someone to put a body on in a rebounding opportunity.

That said, the particular brand of man-to-man that Duke plays is similarly going to tend towards the poor side of defensive rebounding. It has to do with the way we try to push the perimeter out and jam the passing lanes and the way our defensive rotations work. Certain other kinds of man-to-man tend to be the best rebounding defenses.

This is correct. Also in Duke man-to-man D the help side defenders don't stick close to the people they are guarding so have the same box out problem that zone defenders have

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 03:40 PM
Actually any zone that does not push out the weak side defenders will have three near the hoop. For a good lesson on this, compare Syracuse's zone with the zone the Heels played last year. Two entirely different zones - one built for rebounding and protecting the middle and one for stopping the three and inviting interior passes against long arms.

Sorry, I must have missed it when UNC played a zone with three guys near the hoop. Maybe I blinked or something.

Mudge
03-01-2013, 03:41 PM
I know he gave UVA credit and he should have. They thoroughly dismantled Duke last night. The game was never in much question from the start. I don't know what was said to the team regarding making adjustments but one thing I know could have been said to MP2 was post up on the block in a low position. Not straight up. This may have been said by Coach but I didn't see where it was being implemented by his team at all.

Again, Coach K is the best. No question. But the comments rubbed me the wrong way. If there is a concern with safety, why not talk to Commissioner Swofford offline and raise those concerns? What's a news reporter from the Raleigh News & Observer gonna do about it? They don't have very much pull in the whole court safety delimma and I'm not sure they could enact any type of policy or procedure to address this concern.

This is so wrong on so many levels, and so is your opinion that, somehow, the level of Duke's play should obviate the opportunity for Coach K to talk about EVERY SCHOOL providing safe passage for their opponents from the arena at EVERY GAME.

1) This game was in doubt at numerous times in both halves-- Duke closed within one point or basket, and had the ball with the chance to take the lead several times at the end of the first half, and early in the second half. Then, with 40 seconds to go, and the player who had scored more than half of UVa's points out of the game for good, Duke closed within 5 points-- check the tape, and you will see pictures of Average Joe, over on the UVa bench, sweating bullets, and biting his fingernails at that point. So, I don't know what game you watched last night, but I never saw anything that resembled a "thorough dismantling".

2) You seem to think that Coach K only complained about the lack of security because Duke lost, and didn't play well-- that couldn't be further from the truth. He went out of his way to compliment UVa on their play, and say that they and their fans should enjoy themselves-- but his comments on safety apply, whether Duke won by 30 (a` la @ Maryland last year), by a few, after coming back from 10 down in the last minute (a` la 2001 @ Maryland), or lost big (a` la Miami this year) or by a few (a` la last night)... he only spoke to the issue because he was asked a direct question about the heated, physical exchange between the Duke contingent and UVa fans at the conclusion of the game-- get a clue.

tommy
03-01-2013, 03:42 PM
Everyone carping about the refereeing last night really should just, you know, stop. Look, it wasn't the best officiated game I've ever seen. Virginia brought physicality to the game that we didn't match. But on the list of factors contributing to our loss, the officiating is way, way down the list. Like not even in the Top 10. Duke needs to look in the mirror and work on its deficiencies, not point the finger at the refs. That's loser talk. The following were much bigger factors in our loss:

Offensively:

1. Virginia's defensive intensity for all 40 minutes
2. Virginia's quick and strong and certain doubleteams on Mason
3. As a consequence of #1, Duke's inability to get practically any easy buckets.
4. Mason's posting way too far from the hoop
5. Mason's inability to pass quickly out of the doubleteams
6. The ineffectiveness of our ball screen game, resulting from poorly placed screens, poorly timed screens, and the inability of our guards to use the screens properly and to capitalize on the advantage provided by the screens. Also related to #1.
7. Our complete inability to get to the offensive boards
8. Quinn shooting too much and not dishing enough

Defensively:
1. slow moving of the feet against dribble penetration
2. terrible positioning on our switches
3. taking very bad angles in trying to defend cutters
4. poor boxing out on the d-boards
5. turning our heads on the perimeter and losing sight of our men

Intangibles:
1. negative body language/hanging our head (Rasheed, Quinn)

What I don't think were factors were thing such as rest, or lack thereof. We hadn't played since Sunday, afterall. And I certainly think those posters saying things like we didn't play with effort or heart or those sorts of things are way off base. The kids tried; they just didn't execute. They played poorly -- that is quite different than not making a full effort.

DukeWarhead
03-01-2013, 03:43 PM
Still pissed. But come tomorrow, will have moved on. Hopefully, with good vibes from a good game.

bronston22
03-01-2013, 03:43 PM
Sorry, I must have missed it when UNC played a zone with three guys near the hoop. Maybe I blinked or something.

Keep'em open and you might be surprised - happens all the time but I don't think you will ever admit it. Hope your day gets better Kedsy.

oldnavy
03-01-2013, 04:31 PM
Keep'em open and you might be surprised - happens all the time but I don't think you will ever admit it. Hope your day gets better Kedsy.

Kedsy is right, UNC rarely plays zone.

MCFinARL
03-01-2013, 04:49 PM
Everyone carping about the refereeing last night really should just, you know, stop. Look, it wasn't the best officiated game I've ever seen. Virginia brought physicality to the game that we didn't match. But on the list of factors contributing to our loss, the officiating is way, way down the list. Like not even in the Top 10. Duke needs to look in the mirror and work on its deficiencies, not point the finger at the refs. That's loser talk. The following were much bigger factors in our loss:

Offensively:

1. Virginia's defensive intensity for all 40 minutes
2. Virginia's quick and strong and certain doubleteams on Mason
3. As a consequence of #1, Duke's inability to get practically any easy buckets.
4. Mason's posting way too far from the hoop
5. Mason's inability to pass quickly out of the doubleteams
6. The ineffectiveness of our ball screen game, resulting from poorly placed screens, poorly timed screens, and the inability of our guards to use the screens properly and to capitalize on the advantage provided by the screens. Also related to #1.
7. Our complete inability to get to the offensive boards
8. Quinn shooting too much and not dishing enough

Defensively:
1. slow moving of the feet against dribble penetration
2. terrible positioning on our switches
3. taking very bad angles in trying to defend cutters
4. poor boxing out on the d-boards
5. turning our heads on the perimeter and losing sight of our men

Intangibles:
1. negative body language/hanging our head (Rasheed, Quinn)

What I don't think were factors were thing such as rest, or lack thereof. We hadn't played since Sunday, afterall. And I certainly think those posters saying things like we didn't play with effort or heart or those sorts of things are way off base. The kids tried; they just didn't execute. They played poorly -- that is quite different than not making a full effort.

Thanks for saying this; that kind of comment makes me crazy, because it is so rarely justified. While there were times in last night's game when some of the Duke players (or even all of the Duke players) seemed a little lost, it never looked like they gave up or were just going through the motions. Even the negative body language was usually a sign of caring too much, and thus not being able to shake off bad plays/bad calls, instead of a sign of not caring or trying.

tommy
03-01-2013, 04:52 PM
I think it's just way, way, too easy for ESPN, the N&O, or whoever else to spin this as "The only reason they're complaining about this is because they lost," which is exactly what the public will do anyway.

When else would anyone complain about it? There's no court rushing to complain about if you win.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 05:11 PM
Keep'em open and you might be surprised - happens all the time but I don't think you will ever admit it. Hope your day gets better Kedsy.

I'd admit it if I saw it, but you and I must be talking about different things because I don't think I've ever seen anyone play a zone with three players within a few feet of the basket. Against a four-out, one-in team like Duke you'd be leaving two perimeter guys to guard four spread out shooters and nobody would ever do that. Even against a normal college offense at least one shooter would almost always be wide open, essentially unguarded. It doesn't make any sense.

That said, I apologize for my snarky tone.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 05:14 PM
I am Done !Your arguments are valid, as well as sportshenry . I like guys playing well and competing. We do not have the depth in my arrogant opinion. They are still capable of winning it all by winning six straight games when the NCAA starts.However this team could also lose in the first round. I like what I see in my mirror.Thats why I watch Duke and went to school there and use the name heyman25. Condescending comments from Duke fans like yourself is typical of these message boards.I like 5 on a court that play well together

I honestly don't see how anybody could look at our recruiting over the past "n" years (six or seven or whatever other number you pick) and call it "sub par." That said, I apologize for my snarky tone to you, too.

wk2109
03-01-2013, 05:15 PM
4. Mason's posting way too far from the hoop

1. negative body language/hanging our head (Rasheed, Quinn)

I am definitely not a fan of Mason's face-up game 20 feet from the basket, at least not yesterday. He certainly is capable of facing up and taking his man to the basket off the dribble -- he had at least one nasty drive-and-dunk in each of the two previous games if I remember correctly. However, for whatever reason, he doesn't seem as effective driving along the baseline (it also doesn't help that the officials were far too generous to the defense in calling those hooking offensive fouls).

Quinn's head-hanging bothers me too. I understand that he gets upset with himself when he throws a bad pass or whatnot, but too often he hangs his head in the middle of a play, which is inexcusable. You never see guys like Chris Paul or Kyrie Irving do stuff like that. You see it more in guys who are more perceived as "me-first" guys like Carmelo Anthony (not that Quinn is a me-first guy).

I don't mind Rasheed's emotional displays because he seems completely concerned with winning and the team. It also doesn't seem like he's getting down on himself, but angry about circumstances, which to me is different.

DBFAN
03-01-2013, 05:36 PM
Lets not be too hard on Quinn. While he did hang his head he has done it all year, and it may be that he feels like he let his team down. Not really fair to be positive about one players body language and negative about the other. I'm sure if it was really an issue K would not let him play. In Masons defense he was so far out because our 4's weren't doing anything to release the pressure in him. I really hated everything about this game, the way the refs allowed UVA to be sooooo physical to the way when THORNTON got thrown down and was called for the foul. I am use to seeing the more aggressive team get some calls but the fact was the refs expected us to play with finesse while their linebackers were giving forearm shivers. Don't think I have ever seen a group of refs in any game I have ever seen allow one team to be that much more physical than the other. But ya know what?.. No use in crying over spilt milk and I am sure the players aren't. Just remember when u hear all this trash talk from media and whatnot, that people don't talk about nobodies

FerryFor50
03-01-2013, 05:52 PM
Sounds like when K talks, the ACC listens:

http://tracking.si.com/2013/03/01/acc-to-discuss-court-storming/?sct=hp_t2_a6&eref=sihp

greybeard
03-01-2013, 07:52 PM
yeah this was never really in doubt.

joe harris toasted every one we put on him. our defensive game plan and execution were very poor. we continue to be a bad rebounding team. the body language was AWFUL all night.

ryan kelly better be the combination of: lebron james; michael jordan; bill russell; magic johnson; and larry bird b/c we are going to need all of that to make a deep run the way we have been playing lately.

Harris had a great game BUT: UVa extremely physical on both ends, including Harris, refs probably let that physicality and therefore game get away from them, much to Harris' and UVa'sbenefit. Harris got at least 2, maybe 3, open-look baskets late in clock down stretch off moving picks when otherwise tightly guarded; Harris got away with at least 2 obvious fouls (a ref seeing play), one of them gets called that would have given him 4 by last 4-7 minutes. The momentum the second half was a function of UVa's physicality that smoothered Duke. Hard to believe that UVa plays that game the whole game without serious foul trouble.

I didn't catch the first half. I understand that Curry couldn't get it going. When that happens, which thankfully is rare, Duke, in my view, loses momentum, they stop hurting people who press to make threes to keep up because making twos will continue to increase Duke's lead. Then, the other team plays with much more confidence and aggression, and Duke ;has an uphill fight.

So, what I saw in the second half was that when Curry and others came off screens with the ball they often were encountered by a big who knocked them back with a should pushing forward just after contact was made, sslowing them down and disrupting rhythm. The same when fighting over screens on defense. There were other little things like that happening, most particularly, mopving screens, sometimes fairly blatent ones, usually off the ball screens that cleared guys like Harris for a shot. Taking these little shots will throw anyone off his game. On the other hand, maybe it was straight up hard nosed defense.

Given the extremely aggressive play by guys who were not overwhelmingly athletic, someone might want to look at a replay for the little things, and report back. There were also some plays down the end, both called and not called that seemed to go against Duke but were not replayed. One such call drew an "All Ball comment" from Rashead that cost Duke 4points and the ball. It was clear from earlier play that Duke players thought they were getting hammered without an ensuing whistlem and then getting fouls called against them that were undeserved. What about that, that one call alone possible a game changer. Was this a series of Duke players' giving voice to frustration (the view of the announcers) or was there more to it than that.

Listen, I know that great teams need to play through tough physical games even when they are getting jobbed. However, it would be interesting to know how much jobbing Duke took or not. By the way, those moves by Mason going baseline, when he got his arm through but not the rest of him and, without really hooking (the announcers' observations, not mine), it would be interesting to see whether Mason was looking to go around someone who was already planted within a half foot off the baseline, or the defender closed in with a belly as Mason was turning. If you're calling what in effect were hanging chads, let's know who did what and when. If the guy was playing baseline all along, the help would have had to have gooten there from the top almost just as the ball arrived and practically locked arms immediately upon arrival with a baseline defender to take away the middle. UVa might have had the defense gamed such that the open guy would have been are the far side of the court with the three shooters in between all covered, in which case, you have to appaud the double and fault Mason for not having caught and gone middle quick. All that is different to have gone precision right so often. How did they close off the baseline and the middle so quickly and effectively. If they did it legal like, seeing a few replays would have been terrific, they never showed any. What they showed was the arm, not why the rest of him didn't get through. It would have to be rerunn8ing position shortly befoire the ball went in.

Okay, "next game" is probably the much better way to go.

Duke didn't play well, and the loss is going to count. However, I think that we all know referee superiors are looking at film right now. Might be illuminating for someone here to do that too. There is a big game tomorrow. I'm betting that rough stuff will not be tolerated; if so, it would be way cool if somehere here could document a plauible explanation as to why. Could be the stuff that gets circulated, that attracts attension of the big boys, if done really well. Besides, it would be a great favor to me. Grey "often too mucn intuition but I like my hunch here," beard

BlueDevilBrowns
03-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Lets not be too hard on Quinn. While he did hang his head he has done it all year, and it may be that he feels like he let his team down. Not really fair to be positive about one players body language and negative about the other. I'm sure if it was really an issue K would not let him play. In Masons defense he was so far out because our 4's weren't doing anything to release the pressure in him. I really hated everything about this game, the way the refs allowed UVA to be sooooo physical to the way when THORNTON got thrown down and was called for the foul. I am use to seeing the more aggressive team get some calls but the fact was the refs expected us to play with finesse while their linebackers were giving forearm shivers. Don't think I have ever seen a group of refs in any game I have ever seen allow one team to be that much more physical than the other. But ya know what?.. No use in crying over spilt milk and I am sure the players aren't. Just remember when u hear all this trash talk from media and whatnot, that people don't talk about nobodies


To me, Quinn is just an emotional dude and that's ok. His emotion is what makes him go.

The issue I have with Quinn is he's becoming Curry-Lite on the floor, looking for his shot and not to just make plays. He needs to lead this team, find shots for Seth and Mason, and make aggressive drives to the basket. He's playing recently like Greg Paulus his junior year which is not what this team needs.

sporthenry
03-01-2013, 08:25 PM
I'd admit it if I saw it, but you and I must be talking about different things because I don't think I've ever seen anyone play a zone with three players within a few feet of the basket. Against a four-out, one-in team like Duke you'd be leaving two perimeter guys to guard four spread out shooters and nobody would ever do that. Even against a normal college offense at least one shooter would almost always be wide open, essentially unguarded. It doesn't make any sense.

That said, I apologize for my snarky tone.

Don't question yourself too much. I'm in the same camp. I noticed the same thing when he mentioned a zone rebounding. Usually the other way around. Man rebounds better if they box out. Duke's rebounding issues occur b/c of a few things but a zone would not help.
As you mention, most zones don't play 3 around the hoops. In reality, they play 1 around the hoop and if you get to the middle of the zone, the zone collapses as the FT line and they have nobody there to rebound.

I don't know what everyone in D-1 plays defensively, but if you look at some of the best rebounding teams that will make the NCAAT, UVA, Wisconsin, Butler, Arizona all play man from what I can tell.

Kenpom actually tries to decipher your style of play by your stats. One of the keys is a higher defensive rebounding % means mostly man.

On a side note, seeing Butler in there makes me want Stevens a bit more.

tele
03-01-2013, 08:45 PM
Harris had a great game BUT: UVa extremely physical on both ends, including Harris, refs probably let that physicality and therefore game get away from them, much to Harris' and UVa'sbenefit. Harris got at least 2, maybe 3, open-look baskets late in clock down stretch off moving picks when otherwise tightly guarded; Harris got away with at least 2 obvious fouls (a ref seeing play), one of them gets called that would have given him 4 by last 4-7 minutes. The momentum the second half was a function of UVa's physicality that smoothered Duke. Hard to believe that UVa plays that game the whole game without serious foul trouble.

I didn't catch the first half. I understand that Curry couldn't get it going. When that happens, which thankfully is rare, Duke, in my view, loses momentum, they stop hurting people who press to make threes to keep up because making twos will continue to increase Duke's lead. Then, the other team plays with much more confidence and aggression, and Duke ;has an uphill fight.

So, what I saw in the second half was that when Curry and others came off screens with the ball they often were encountered by a big who knocked them back with a should pushing forward just after contact was made, sslowing them down and disrupting rhythm. The same when fighting over screens on defense. There were other little things like that happening, most particularly, mopving screens, sometimes fairly blatent ones, usually off the ball screens that cleared guys like Harris for a shot. Taking these little shots will throw anyone off his game. On the other hand, maybe it was straight up hard nosed defense.

Given the extremely aggressive play by guys who were not overwhelmingly athletic, someone might want to look at a replay for the little things, and report back. There were also some plays down the end, both called and not called that seemed to go against Duke but were not replayed. One such call drew an "All Ball comment" from Rashead that cost Duke 4points and the ball. It was clear from earlier play that Duke players thought they were getting hammered without an ensuing whistlem and then getting fouls called against them that were undeserved. What about that, that one call alone possible a game changer. Was this a series of Duke players' giving voice to frustration (the view of the announcers) or was there more to it than that.

Listen, I know that great teams need to play through tough physical games even when they are getting jobbed. However, it would be interesting to know how much jobbing Duke took or not. By the way, those moves by Mason going baseline, when he got his arm through but not the rest of him and, without really hooking (the announcers' observations, not mine), it would be interesting to see whether Mason was looking to go around someone who was already planted within a half foot off the baseline, or the defender closed in with a belly as Mason was turning. If you're calling what in effect were hanging chads, let's know who did what and when. If the guy was playing baseline all along, the help would have had to have gooten there from the top almost just as the ball arrived and practically locked arms immediately upon arrival with a baseline defender to take away the middle. UVa might have had the defense gamed such that the open guy would have been are the far side of the court with the three shooters in between all covered, in which case, you have to appaud the double and fault Mason for not having caught and gone middle quick. All that is different to have gone precision right so often. How did they close off the baseline and the middle so quickly and effectively. If they did it legal like, seeing a few replays would have been terrific, they never showed any. What they showed was the arm, not why the rest of him didn't get through. It would have to be rerunn8ing position shortly befoire the ball went in.

Okay, "next game" is probably the much better way to go.

Duke didn't play well, and the loss is going to count. However, I think that we all know referee superiors are looking at film right now. Might be illuminating for someone here to do that too. There is a big game tomorrow. I'm betting that rough stuff will not be tolerated; if so, it would be way cool if somehere here could document a plauible explanation as to why. Could be the stuff that gets circulated, that attracts attension of the big boys, if done really well. Besides, it would be a great favor to me. Grey "often too mucn intuition but I like my hunch here," beard


Even Dino commented during the game that the virginia double team was almost all the way across the lane before the entry pass was even thrown to Mason, so no surprise the double team was there when the ball got there. Makes it hard to pass to the open player or make a post move. The guards may have been telegraphing their passes a little. A couple of times I noticed the help defender headed over to double mason actually had to stop in the lane and wait a bit before going over to double. I guess it was pretty obvious when Duke was going to try and go to Mason.

Also, when the passes did come Mason often had to reach and move off the blocks to get the ball, if not give up post position entirely and move out along the baseline so he could have the ball passed to him. Not sure why the Duke guards were having so much trouble throwing entry passes, seemed hesitant, pump faking passes and then not throwing it, maybe they were afraid of making turnovers or felt more comfortable passing the ball to another perimeter player. I think most of Curry and Cooks assists were to each other, Rasheed was left to try and create his own shot too. Not a very good ballhandling effort, the dribbling was ok but the passing, not so much. This isn't anything new and getting Kelly back will help disguise this again, remember he often led the team in assists and may have been the best at feeding the post on the team. He just makes it harder for other teams to defendl.

ncexnyc
03-01-2013, 08:54 PM
Kedsy is right, UNC rarely plays zone.
Now why would anyone even think that UNC plays zone when their coach can't even recognize one?

tele
03-01-2013, 09:04 PM
Everyone carping about the refereeing last night really should just, you know, stop. Look, it wasn't the best officiated game I've ever seen. Virginia brought physicality to the game that we didn't match. But on the list of factors contributing to our loss, the officiating is way, way down the list. Like not even in the Top 10. Duke needs to look in the mirror and work on its deficiencies, not point the finger at the refs. That's loser talk. The following were much bigger factors in our loss:

Offensively:

1. Virginia's defensive intensity for all 40 minutes
2. Virginia's quick and strong and certain doubleteams on Mason
3. As a consequence of #1, Duke's inability to get practically any easy buckets.
4. Mason's posting way too far from the hoop
5. Mason's inability to pass quickly out of the doubleteams
6. The ineffectiveness of our ball screen game, resulting from poorly placed screens, poorly timed screens, and the inability of our guards to use the screens properly and to capitalize on the advantage provided by the screens. Also related to #1.
7. Our complete inability to get to the offensive boards
8. Quinn shooting too much and not dishing enough

Defensively:
1. slow moving of the feet against dribble penetration
2. terrible positioning on our switches
3. taking very bad angles in trying to defend cutters
4. poor boxing out on the d-boards
5. turning our heads on the perimeter and losing sight of our men

Intangibles:
1. negative body language/hanging our head (Rasheed, Quinn)

What I don't think were factors were thing such as rest, or lack thereof. We hadn't played since Sunday, afterall. And I certainly think those posters saying things like we didn't play with effort or heart or those sorts of things are way off base. The kids tried; they just didn't execute. They played poorly -- that is quite different than not making a full effort.


Nice list, how many do you think are correctable before tomorrow? Well, being at Cameron should help. Did you mention the breakdown on defense rotation when Mason was trying to help defend guards driving down the lane unguarded? Usually when the big goes to help the guard who lost their man switches to the big that Mason left. But there was no rotation onto Mason's man so he was left playing one on two, if he went hard at the guard they dished to the man Mason left (mitchell?) for an easy basket. I think the defending guard is supposed to trail their now open man into the lane and at least try and disrupt the pass to the offensive big player Mason leaves to help on the driver. But Duke's Guards don't seem to do this, Cook tends to stop around the free throw line and watch and Curry just trails the play but doesnt rotate to the open man. Makes it hard to play help defense in the paint. Unfortunately, it reminds me of last years defensive play.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 09:53 PM
I think most of Curry and Cooks assists were to each other...

Well, Quinn and Seth only had 3 assists combined. And you are correct: all three of those assists were one of them (Quinn twice and Seth once) passing to the other for a three-pointer.

nyesq83
03-01-2013, 11:41 PM
When did you expect this? That's a pretty negative outlook when we only have four losses now and just three regular season games remaining.

Before the season begins, I set reasonable expectations based on a variety of factors, the younger the team is, the more losses, but I also expect unexpected injuries, and this year noted the rise of new coaches in the league and the fact that Duke has won so much, nothing lasts forever.

I usually overestimate the number of losses every year.

I am a 1983 graduate, so I think I have a pretty good feel for how things will work out.

nyesq83
03-02-2013, 12:10 AM
Depends on when you define the season's end. If we lose to Miami, @UNC, in the ACC tourney, and in the NCAA tourney, that'd be 8 losses.

Granted, that's definitely on the negative side. But it's only 1 game more negative than I'd think is a reasonable expectation.

My guess about losses is preseason, to temper my expectations. So I don't spend hours crapping all over the team on DBR when they lose a game.

Every once in a while, our team gets hosed by the officials. Most games, every year, the team controls the tempo with aggressive but fair play. Hence the positive free throw formula that helps win games by a comfortable margin.

With the improvement in coaching in the ACC, expect more victories by other teams in the future, despite the next round of extraordinary players coming next year and beyond.

At least if Duke loses a few more regular season games and is 'only' ranked in the top 15-25 every season, we won't have to worry about court-storming as much LOL.

I hope I am wrong.

greybeard
03-02-2013, 01:12 AM
Everyone carping about the refereeing last night really should just, you know, stop. Look, it wasn't the best officiated game I've ever seen. Virginia brought physicality to the game that we didn't match. But on the list of factors contributing to our loss, the officiating is way, way down the list. Like not even in the Top 10. Duke needs to look in the mirror and work on its deficiencies, not point the finger at the refs. That's loser talk. The following were much bigger factors in our loss:

Offensively:

1. Virginia's defensive intensity for all 40 minutes
2. Virginia's quick and strong and certain doubleteams on Mason
3. As a consequence of #1, Duke's inability to get practically any easy buckets.
4. Mason's posting way too far from the hoop
5. Mason's inability to pass quickly out of the doubleteams
6. The ineffectiveness of our ball screen game, resulting from poorly placed screens, poorly timed screens, and the inability of our guards to use the screens properly and to capitalize on the advantage provided by the screens. Also related to #1.
7. Our complete inability to get to the offensive boards
8. Quinn shooting too much and not dishing enough

Defensively:
1. slow moving of the feet against dribble penetration
2. terrible positioning on our switches
3. taking very bad angles in trying to defend cutters
4. poor boxing out on the d-boards
5. turning our heads on the perimeter and losing sight of our men

Intangibles:
1. negative body language/hanging our head (Rasheed, Quinn)

What I don't think were factors were thing such as rest, or lack thereof. We hadn't played since Sunday, afterall. And I certainly think those posters saying things like we didn't play with effort or heart or those sorts of things are way off base. The kids tried; they just didn't execute. They played poorly -- that is quite different than not making a full effort.

Close game decided by the extremely physical play of UVA, Most all of the specifics mentioned due to said physical play. I think that there were enough wrong calls to change momentum entirely, change each team's energy level and morale, change Harris's aggressiveness and several (3 or more) shots down the stress to allow these observations to stand. Moving screens, hit with shoulders (small but effective) to slow duke defenders coming over screens and offensive players off of screens, UVa, esppecially Harris would have had 4 at least going into the last 5-7 minutes, I don't see how the double team of Mason did not give rise to open shots without fouling exterior players moving to space towards the basket in case of pass outs. When Mason went baseline off double team and got arms and head through, was his body stopped by guy moving in towards baseline with this belly--replays showed arm not what preceeded it.

It isa clear that duke exterior players thought they were getting clobbered when no violation called and were wrong calls were made on the other end. The "all ball" technical decided the game--four made free throws and possession.

Refs decided this game by losing control of physical play by UVa, IMO. UVa played really well, but surviving with no foul trouble (how deep did duke go into the second half before it got into the 1 and 1) given its very physical play on both ends difficult to understand. The criticisms mentioned above turn or fall on whether refs called the game poorly. I think they did.

bronston22
03-02-2013, 06:27 AM
Don't question yourself too much. I'm in the same camp. I noticed the same thing when he mentioned a zone rebounding. Usually the other way around. Man rebounds better if they box out. Duke's rebounding issues occur b/c of a few things but a zone would not help.
As you mention, most zones don't play 3 around the hoops. In reality, they play 1 around the hoop and if you get to the middle of the zone, the zone collapses as the FT line and they have nobody there to rebound.

I don't know what everyone in D-1 plays defensively, but if you look at some of the best rebounding teams that will make the NCAAT, UVA, Wisconsin, Butler, Arizona all play man from what I can tell.

Not to beat a dead horse here and perhaps some of this is semantics but my original point was that a tight zone rebounds better than an extended man to man like we play. I should have been more clear when I said three players "a few feet from the basket" and stated it as "within rebounding distance of the basket". One of the key principles of the zone defense is that wherever the ball is, the weak side players either slide down (the 1 and 2) or slide in (the 3 and 4).

The zone does require the added responsibility of finding your man in order to box out but if the team is doing their job they will be in good position to box. Man to man is easier to find your man but distance from the hoop makes boxing out more difficult - a geometric fact.

I think we all can agree that rebounding, regardless of the defense, is about concentration, anticipation and most of all desire. It helps to have a big body but great rebounders come in surprising packages. Regardless of defense, rebounding is a mindset. I fully expect we will win the battle of the boards today because we will be more committed.

slower
03-02-2013, 09:07 AM
But on the list of factors contributing to our loss, the officiating is way, way down the list. Like not even in the Top 10.

Gonna have to disagree with that. That was the most obvious hose job in a long time.

DukeAlumBS
03-02-2013, 09:33 AM
My friends, Slower,

I am in agreement with you. This was the worst officiating I have seen at a college basketball game. And as physical as UVA was playing, I am sure the obvious no calls frustrated our players. Took them out of their game.
I wonder if they got paid other monies?
It is done, we lost. I feel will will regroup!

Nice day my friends,

Jim

75Crazie
03-02-2013, 12:05 PM
Refs decided this game by losing control of physical play by UVa, IMO. UVa played really well, but surviving with no foul trouble (how deep did duke go into the second half before it got into the 1 and 1) given its very physical play on both ends difficult to understand. The criticisms mentioned above turn or fall on whether refs called the game poorly. I think they did.
Please, everybody, just give it a rest already about the refs deciding this game -- they did not. From the body language of both teams, it was clear from the start that UVA brought way more energy and desire to the game than Duke did, and that was the ultimate deciding factor. If the game had been called more evenly, it is probable that they would have found a different way to win. Whining about the officiating just comes off as the same kind of sour grapes that we accuse other fans of when they whine about Duke getting all the calls. UVA deserved to win, and they did win, and let's quit giving people additional fodder for complaining about how entitled and sanctimonious we Duke fans are. Let's accept the loss as it happened and congratulate the Hoos on a spirited game.