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View Full Version : Rasheed Sulaimon - ACC Rookie (Freshman) of the Year?



davekay1971
02-22-2013, 10:05 PM
Props to BlueDevilBrowns for mentioning that it might be time for this thread in the VT in-game thread...

So, is there a good argument for Rasheed?

This is Duke Basketball Report...so of course there is!

Quickly, the top contenders

Rasheed 29.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.427 fg%, 0.406 3p%, 0.817 ft%
TJ Warren 25.5 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.628 fg%, 0.545 3p%, 0.556 ft%
Rodney Purvis 28.8 mpg, 8.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.6 spg, 0.418 fg% , 0.400 3p%, 0.492 ft%
Marcus Paige 28.0 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.315 fg%, 0.298 3p%, 0.872 ft%
Devin Thomas 26.6 mpg, 8.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.491 fg% , 0.484 ft%

There are some other freshmen around the ACC having good years, obviously (Allen from Md, Evan Nolte and Mike Tobey from UVa, for example), but I think the five above are probably the top 5 candidates. I'd put Rasheed and Warren above the other 3, although Marcus Paige deserves credit for his crucial role as PG, and Devin Thomas is about the only thing Wake has going on in the paint. Purvis suffers from comparison to his own teammate, not to mention that ungodly free throw percentage (49% for a shooting guard?)

I do consider Rasheed to be above Warren on this list, because I wear Duke Blue glasses AND because his defense is much better than Warren's. State doesn't really have a shut-down defender, but even among their collection of so-so defenders, Warren isn't their best. Rasheed is arguably our best perimeter defender and he's routinely been asked to guard the other team's best scorer. Add that role to the fact that his scoring and rebounding numbers are close to Warren's, although in 4 more minutes per game, and I think it puts Rasheed over the top.

sporthenry
02-22-2013, 10:16 PM
Props to BlueDevilBrowns for mentioning that it might be time for this thread in the VT in-game thread...

So, is there a good argument for Rasheed?

This is Duke Basketball Report...so of course there is!

Quickly, the top contenders

Rasheed 29.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.427 fg%, 0.406 3p%, 0.817 ft%
TJ Warren 25.5 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.628 fg%, 0.545 3p%, 0.556 ft%
Rodney Purvis 28.8 mpg, 8.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.6 spg, 0.418 fg% , 0.400 3p%, 0.492 ft%
Marcus Paige 28.0 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.315 fg%, 0.298 3p%, 0.872 ft%
Devin Thomas 26.6 mpg, 8.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.491 fg% , 0.484 ft%

There are some other freshmen around the ACC having good years, obviously (Allen from Md, Evan Nolte and Mike Tobey from UVa, for example), but I think the five above are probably the top 5 candidates. I'd put Rasheed and Warren above the other 3, although Marcus Paige deserves credit for his crucial role as PG, and Devin Thomas is about the only thing Wake has going on in the paint. Purvis suffers from comparison to his own teammate, not to mention that ungodly free throw percentage (49% for a shooting guard?)

I do consider Rasheed to be above Warren on this list, because I wear Duke Blue glasses AND because his defense is much better than Warren's. State doesn't really have a shut-down defender, but even among their collection of so-so defenders, Warren isn't their best. Rasheed is arguably our best perimeter defender and he's routinely been asked to guard the other team's best scorer. Add that role to the fact that his scoring and rebounding numbers are close to Warren's, although in 4 more minutes per game, and I think it puts Rasheed over the top.

Not to burst the bubble but you forgot perhaps the favorite in Hanlan. Putting him against Warren and Sheed.

Rasheed 29.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.427 fg%, 0.406 3p%, 0.817 ft%
TJ Warren 25.5 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.628 fg%, 0.545 3p%, 0.556 ft%
Hanlan 34.0 mpg 14.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.2 spg, .428 fg%, .333 3p%, .75 ft%

I think Sheed is probably the most consistent out of the 3 (at least after he got out of his funk) but with all their weapons, I don't see him finishing with a lot of 20-25+ point games which the other 2 are capable of.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-22-2013, 10:25 PM
Props to BlueDevilBrowns for mentioning that it might be time for this thread in the VT in-game thread...

So, is there a good argument for Rasheed?

This is Duke Basketball Report...so of course there is!

Quickly, the top contenders

Rasheed 29.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.427 fg%, 0.406 3p%, 0.817 ft%
TJ Warren 25.5 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.628 fg%, 0.545 3p%, 0.556 ft%
Rodney Purvis 28.8 mpg, 8.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.6 spg, 0.418 fg% , 0.400 3p%, 0.492 ft%
Marcus Paige 28.0 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.315 fg%, 0.298 3p%, 0.872 ft%
Devin Thomas 26.6 mpg, 8.1 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.491 fg% , 0.484 ft%

There are some other freshmen around the ACC having good years, obviously (Allen from Md, Evan Nolte and Mike Tobey from UVa, for example), but I think the five above are probably the top 5 candidates. I'd put Rasheed and Warren above the other 3, although Marcus Paige deserves credit for his crucial role as PG, and Devin Thomas is about the only thing Wake has going on in the paint. Purvis suffers from comparison to his own teammate, not to mention that ungodly free throw percentage (49% for a shooting guard?)

I do consider Rasheed to be above Warren on this list, because I wear Duke Blue glasses AND because his defense is much better than Warren's. State doesn't really have a shut-down defender, but even among their collection of so-so defenders, Warren isn't their best. Rasheed is arguably our best perimeter defender and he's routinely been asked to guard the other team's best scorer. Add that role to the fact that his scoring and rebounding numbers are close to Warren's, although in 4 more minutes per game, and I think it puts Rasheed over the top.

First, thanks for the shout-out Dave.

Second, I do believe it's a 2 horse race between Rasheed and Warren. After thinking about this for a while, objectively speaking I'd have to go with Warren slightly over Sheed. TJ's 62 percent fg percentage is #1 in the league! Thats pretty amazing for a freshman.

Defense, though, should be a factor and Rasheed would certainly have the edge there.

davekay1971
02-22-2013, 10:26 PM
So, the giant blind spot my brain formed around GT and BC, except on the nights I have to watch them because Duke is playing them, made me completely forget about those two team's strong freshmen.

BC: Hanlan and Rahon
GT: Georges-Hunt and Carter

Of those four, Hanlan has the strongest resume, and stacks up well, in terms of importance to team and statistics, to both Sulaimon and Warren. All four of the BC and GT players, in some ways, benefit from being on teams without much else going for them. What would Rasheed's scoring numbers look like if he wasn't playing in an offense with 2-3 All-ACC 1st/2nd team caliber guys all season? Same question for Warren.

Regardless, here's Hanlan's stat line:
Hanlan:34.0 mpg, 14.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.428 fg%, 0.750 ft%, 0.333 3p%

Edit: You beat me to it, Sporthenry! I was putting together an addendum to include the four in this post, particularly Hanlan, got cut off by the time limit, wrote this post, then saw yours. Anyway, you're right, I forgot about Hanlan and he's clearly in the conversation!

Newton_14
02-22-2013, 10:32 PM
Not to burst the bubble but you forgot perhaps the favorite in Hanlan. Putting him against Warren and Sheed.

Rasheed 29.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.427 fg%, 0.406 3p%, 0.817 ft%
TJ Warren 25.5 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.628 fg%, 0.545 3p%, 0.556 ft%
Hanlan 34.0 mpg 14.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.2 spg, .428 fg%, .333 3p%, .75 ft%

I think Sheed is probably the most consistent out of the 3 (at least after he got out of his funk) but with all their weapons, I don't see him finishing with a lot of 20-25+ point games which the other 2 are capable of.

Good point on Hanlan. He may actually win it. As of right now I would rank Rasheed higher than Warren because of overall play and skillset. Warren is very versatile and efficient on offense, but not as good a defender as Rasheed, and not as good of a playmaker as Rasheed.

Rasheed vs Hanlan is an interesting study. Slight edge to Hanlan as a scorer, equal as playmakers, slight edge to Rasheed as a shooter, but again defense puts Rasheed over the top in this matchup.

Hanlan will be hurt by playing for BC not only because they are not a great team, but because they are a team that plays in the desolate wastelands where few care about them including their own fans and local media. With that, I think the voters will make this a two man race between Rasheed and Warren.

I like Rasheed's chances if he can finish strong down the stretch but it will be extremely close.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-22-2013, 10:35 PM
I would discount the four from BC and GTech due to the over-abundance of playing time available on last-place-type teams. I'd bet if you put Murphy on either one of those teams, over time, he would put up similar numbers.

What impact in wins and losses have any of those players made to their team? I would say both Sulaimon and Warren have had much more meaningful seasons to date.

sporthenry
02-22-2013, 10:40 PM
Of those four, Hanlan has the strongest resume, and stacks up well, in terms of importance to team and statistics, to both Sulaimon and Warren. All four of the BC and GT players, in some ways, benefit from being on teams without much else going for them. What would Rasheed's scoring numbers look like if he wasn't playing in an offense with 2-3 All-ACC 1st/2nd team caliber guys all season? Same question for Warren.


I think this is the biggest thing. Sheed could put up much better quantitative numbers if he didn't have to defer to Curry, Cook and Mason. But he also benefits from this. If he was on BC, teams would game plan for him and I doubt he would get nearly the amount of open 3's and shots that he gets. So it sort of goes both ways with having a better team around you. I'm sure the great defensive guys try to lock down Curry or even Cook before Sheed. But to be honest, I'm not sure why we aren't starting a Sheed Draft Vigil or why the Crazies aren't chanting 1 more year b/c Sheed has been every bit as good as AR as far as I'm concerned.

But I digress, I was surprised to see the ACC ROY list littered with UNC and Duke guys. I figured it'd be like COY where the worst teams had a better chance since teams that rely on freshman that much are rarely that good but I guess with the 1 and dones and Duke/UNC getting top 5 talent, the freshmen can play with anyone.

With that in mind, if Warren or Hanlan finish strong, I think they'll get the nod but if they stumble, Sheed will be there. But BC relies heavily on Hanlan and Warren looks to be taking off especially as Purvis struggles.

gep
02-22-2013, 10:43 PM
... Defense, though, should be a factor and Rasheed would certainly have the edge there.

I haven't paid attention to defense with the other players... but I do really like Rasheed's defense. All else being "equal", I hope it's Rasheed's to lose.

GO DUKE!!!! GO RASHEED!!!!

davekay1971
02-22-2013, 11:01 PM
I think this is the biggest thing. Sheed could put up much better quantitative numbers if he didn't have to defer to Curry, Cook and Mason. But he also benefits from this. If he was on BC, teams would game plan for him and I doubt he would get nearly the amount of open 3's and shots that he gets. So it sort of goes both ways with having a better team around you. I'm sure the great defensive guys try to lock down Curry or even Cook before Sheed. .

You're exactly right...it does cut both ways. Other teams put their best perimeter defender on Seth...hopefully getting Sheed more open looks. But Sheed is also frequently the 3rd offensive option (4th when Ryan was...AND WILL BE...healthy). With Quinn looking for his shot more, when he's on, that may even make Sheed the 4th/5th offensive option. It's kind of like trying to figure Brian Davis's scoring when he was surrounded by Hurley, Laettner, Hill, and Hill...did Brian get his points because the other team was trying to double-team 3 other guys, or did he get his points in spite of being the 5th offensive option on the floor?

So Sheed's and Warren's offensive stats are both probably helped and hurt by their gifted teammates. I think, on the whole, if you put Sheed in Hanlan's place, he'd have numbers as good as, or better than, Hanlan's...but that's an impossible argument to prove, of course.

Olympic Fan
02-22-2013, 11:02 PM
I ws stunned by the first post ... I think Olivier Hanlan is the CLEAR frontrunner.

When you look at the history of the award, you see plenty of winners from losing and even terrible teams.

Is Rasheed the best all-around freshman in the ACC? I think so, but I think Grant Hill was the best all-around freshman i9n 1991 and he got one vote for rookie of the year. Christian Laettner got zero votes in 1989 ... Bryant Stith, who won, was a good player on a good team, but second-place Jerod Mustaf played on a 1-13 Maryland team and Chris King, who finished third, played on a 3-11 Wake Forest team.

I can think of others -- Chris Williams of Virginia (4-12 and last in the ACC) beat out Corey Maggette of Duke (16-0 and first) by a wide margin. Ed Nelson beat out Julius Hodge ...

As recently as 2009, Sylvan Landesberg of Virginia won for a 4-12 Virginia team.

Duke;s great players rarely fare well in the rokkie vote -- Dawkins lost by 30 votes to Mark Price; Danny Ferry didn't get a single vote; Laettner didn'ty get a single vote. Hurley got two votes. Grant Hill got one vote. Trajan Langdon didn't get a single vote. Shane Battier got three votes (Elton Brand got one, but he was hurt most of the year). Jason Willians did lose a close vote to Joe Forte. JJ Redick got 12 votes. Doe all the ACC and national POYs that K has had, he's had just three rookies (Duhon, Singler, Rivers).

In almost every case, voters went for the guy who got to play more minutes on a bad team and finished with the best stats. Hanlan is leading the ACC freshmen in scoring by more than two and a half points a game. He's No. 4 in assists (better than Rasheed or Warren) ... he's No. 6 in rebounding (better than Rasheed or Warren) . He's third in steals (better than Rashed or Warren).

Barring something amazing in the last two weeks, Hanlan is going to be ACC rookie of the year -- probably with Rasheed second, Warren third.

davekay1971
02-22-2013, 11:06 PM
I ws stunned by the first post ... I think Olivier Hanlan is the CLEAR frontrunner.
.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I forgot Hanlan. Face...palm. But, while you're right about the voting tendencies, I can't see Hanlan's performance as being clearly more deserving than Sulaimon's or Warren's.

Mea culpa in forgetting Hanlan, though. Then again, I tend to forget that BC is actually in the ACC...as does most of Boston.

throatybeard
02-22-2013, 11:45 PM
I don't know, but I think Sulaimon is my favorite Duke MBB player since, I don't know, like since Shane graduated. That was back when Shane and I were young men.

I think I go like this:

1) Wojo
T2) Brian Davis
T2) Robert Brickey
4) Shane Battier

5) Introduce yourselves, youngsters. And sorry I'm not old enough for a Banks or a Groat to step in.

Bob Green
02-23-2013, 04:45 AM
I ws stunned by the first post ... I think Olivier Hanlan is the CLEAR frontrunner.

Barring something amazing in the last two weeks, Hanlan is going to be ACC rookie of the year -- probably with Rasheed second, Warren third.

Articles at the ACC Sports Journal agree with you:

http://www.accsports.com/articles/2013021214728/acc-freshman-watch-feb-12.php
http://www.accsports.com/articles/2013021814786/acc-freshman-watch-feb-19.php

Olympic Fan
02-23-2013, 07:51 PM
Warren had a 10 point (five of 10 from the floor) game at Chapel Hill. He did have 10 rebounds, his career ebst ... but he also had four turnovers and no assists.

It will be interesting to see Rasheed vs. Hanlan tomorrow in Cameron. Hanlan is coming off his best game of the season, a 26-point effot in a victory over Maryland.

Slackerb
02-24-2013, 10:24 AM
I think Warren gets it based on sheer efficiency. If he was playing the minutes and taking the # of possessions that Rasheed or Hanlan has, he'd be a clear favorite. Instead he's #4 or #5 on a very balanced team.

Warren has had 5 games so far of over 20 points, including this week's 31 against FSU (on 12-15 from the floor).


Warren had a 10 point (five of 10 from the floor) game at Chapel Hill. He did have 10 rebounds, his career ebst ... but he also had four turnovers and no assists.

It will be interesting to see Rasheed vs. Hanlan tomorrow in Cameron. Hanlan is coming off his best game of the season, a 26-point effot in a victory over Maryland.

SupaDave
02-24-2013, 02:46 PM
So I'm wondering how much head to head is actually factored into the voting. Sheed destroyed Hanlan today.

davekay1971
02-24-2013, 03:00 PM
So I'm wondering how much head to head is actually factored into the voting. Sheed destroyed Hanlan today.

Probably not much. But, yeah, Rasheed made an emphatic case today, not just in his offense (which has been wonderful), but in the nasty defensive lockdown he's put on Hanlan.

OldPhiKap
02-24-2013, 03:04 PM
So I'm wondering how much head to head is actually factored into the voting. Sheed destroyed Hanlan today.

Probably did with Greivous and Scheyer. But that was the last week of the season IIRC.

ricks68
02-24-2013, 08:08 PM
I don't know, but I think Sulaimon is my favorite Duke MBB player since, I don't know, like since Shane graduated. That was back when Shane and I were young men.

I think I go like this:

1) Wojo
T2) Brian Davis
T2) Robert Brickey
4) Shane Battier

5) Introduce yourselves, youngsters. And sorry I'm not old enough for a Banks or a Groat to step in.

O.K., youngster yourself, I'd go with:

1) Verga
2) Hurley
3) Williams
T4) Battier
T4) JJ

(Sorry DITBD, I came just after Heyman left, or he would probably have been #1.):D

ricks

Slackerb
02-28-2013, 08:40 AM
T.J. Warren is really lighting it up recently. In the past three games he's averaging 18 PPG, 10 RPG, is shooting 64%, 2-2 from 3-point, in only 27 MPG.

CDu
02-28-2013, 09:32 AM
I don't know, but I think Sulaimon is my favorite Duke MBB player since, I don't know, like since Shane graduated. That was back when Shane and I were young men.

I think I go like this:

1) Wojo
T2) Brian Davis
T2) Robert Brickey
4) Shane Battier

5) Introduce yourselves, youngsters. And sorry I'm not old enough for a Banks or a Groat to step in.

I know it is somewhat sacrilege to say, but Wojo was one of my least favorites. He was a highly-overrated defender, and he was nonexistent offensively until his senior year. Definitely scrappy, but not as good as the reputation.

I'd go with the following as faves:

1) Grant Hill
2) James (obviously the least talented on this list, but his badassery was so tangible that he was my fave as a student)
3) Williams (I love a PG who seems to have the game on a string)
4) Irving (ditto)
5) Battier
6) Redick (just silly what he could do with his shot)
7) Williams (loved teaching my wife to yell "landlord!" at the TV when he'd block a shot, and loved how often she got to say it)
8) Brand (just dominating whenever Duke decided to give him the ball)
9) Laettner (loved that he treated the opponent with disdain and just meant business out there)
10) Deng (a Grant Hill-esque force at PF - just too bad he didn't stick around longer)

jipops
02-28-2013, 10:08 AM
I know it is somewhat sacrilege to say, but Wojo was one of my least favorites. He was a highly-overrated defender, and he was nonexistent offensively until his senior year. Definitely scrappy, but not as good as the reputation.

I'd go with the following as faves:

1) Grant Hill
2) James (obviously the least talented on this list, but his badassery was so tangible that he was my fave as a student)
3) Williams (I love a PG who seems to have the game on a string)
4) Irving (ditto)
5) Battier
6) Redick (just silly what he could do with his shot)
7) Williams (loved teaching my wife to yell "landlord!" at the TV when he'd block a shot, and loved how often she got to say it)
8) Brand (just dominating whenever Duke decided to give him the ball)
9) Laettner (loved that he treated the opponent with disdain and just meant business out there)
10) Deng (a Grant Hill-esque force at PF - just too bad he didn't stick around longer)

Can't pass this up, my list:

1. Grant Hill
2. Jon Scheyer (double figure scorer all 4 years, a very complete game for a guard at both ends of the floor, in constant control, poised)
3. David Henderson (I don't what it is but this guy really made me a fan. He really came on his junior year. I'll never forget his expression after the '86 title game)
4. Nate
5. Hurley (never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever got tired. Tough as nails, really challenged Laettner as a leader on those '91-'92 teams)
6. Billy King (best ever lock down defender at Duke?)
7. Gene Banks
8. Nolan Smith (wow talk about a kid that really grew at Duke)
9. Brand
10. Dan Meagher (tough SOB, my memories of him always have a little blood on the jersey)