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Ultrarunner
02-15-2013, 10:19 PM
Jay Bilas thinks so...


“Our game is brutal to watch right now,” said Jay Bilas, an analyst for ESPN.

The quote is from a WaPo article. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/college-basketball-brutal-to-watch-needs-a-major-overhaul-as-scoring-dips-to-historic-lows/2013/02/15/b24e0410-77cb-11e2-b102-948929030e64_story.html)

As a personal aside, my middle daughter and I watched the 1992 Carolina game after the Miami Massacre. Since the game is nearly older than she is, it was an eye opener. The athleticism and basketball skills of the players PLUS that they could play without getting hammered was beautiful.

Before Mason's third foul, the Carolina player behind him - I think it was Hariston - hit him so hard in the back that Mason was flailing to catch his balance. I was thinking the Mason might end up with bruised kidneys from the shot.

Anyway, while we await the game, a topic for venting.

g-money
02-15-2013, 10:40 PM
Absolutely. Watching a college game nowadays is like watching a Knicks-Heat game from the 90s. Of course, since then the NBA has banned hand checking and opened up driving lanes via the defensive 3 second rule, and the result has been a surge in scoring - and popularity.

It'd be great to see the NCAA follow suit; I'm sure they will, right after pigs fly.

cptnflash
02-15-2013, 10:52 PM
Definitely. It's not enough to just get past your defender anymore, you have to do a swim move to get through their arm bars and hand checks as well. It's even more obvious in person than it is on TV - it almost looks like rugby at times. I agree with Bilas 100% - shooters need to be protected, body fouls need to be called, it's too easy to take a charge, and cutters need way more freedom of movement.

sporthenry
02-15-2013, 11:08 PM
Absolutely. Watching a college game nowadays is like watching a Knicks-Heat game from the 90s. Of course, since then the NBA has banned hand checking and opened up driving lanes via the defensive 3 second rule, and the result has been a surge in scoring - and popularity.

It'd be great to see the NCAA follow suit; I'm sure they will, right after pigs fly.

I would hate them doing a defensive 3 seconds. The NBA rules are quite ridiculous. You can hand check if the person catches the ball below the elbow. You can take a charge if the person catches the ball below the baseline. The lack of a 5 second violation closely guarded unless you have your back to the basket.

The defensive 3 second would get rid of zone defenses which from a purist point of view would be a tragedy. Not that zones are necessarily that effective at least in the NBA but if you can't beat a zone, you don't deserve to win. Similarly, with the 24 second shot clock. Putting that in will increase scoring but it will be more iso and fast break. I enjoy a team who can actually run a 35 second offense and a team who can play defense that long as well. I'm not necessarily against a low scoring game in the 50/60's as long as it is played well which hasn't been the case this year. You can take 35 seconds off the clock and actually take and make good shots.

I think getting rid of hand checks and cleaning up some more of the physical play is all that is necessary.

oldnavy
02-16-2013, 06:58 AM
I am mixed on this. Part of me likes the physical nature of the game and would absolutely loath watching a game where the refs blow the whistle for every foul committed. The transition and learning curve to reduce the physical nature of the game would be painful to watch.

On the other hand, I don't really want to see the game turn into a hockey match either.

The players today are stronger and the game has changed as a result.

What I would love to see is consistency by the refs!! Calling a hand check 30 feet from the basket, yet allowing an arm bar in the paint drives me nuts. Find a balance and stick with it no matter where the contact occurs on the court.

camion
02-16-2013, 07:42 AM
Yes.

ChrisP
02-16-2013, 07:59 AM
Yes.

What he (or she) said.

wilko
02-16-2013, 08:00 AM
Too rough.
I'd rather see the calls made - I don't care if the game lasts 4 hours or more.
I have long held that NOT making the correct call IS giving 1 team an advantage by proxy.

Whether its hard defense on the last shot of the game or the player carries unguarded on the in-bounds - make the call!
Emphasize the fundamentals.

I've often wondered if we HAD a Pistol Pete in todays game, would we be able to recognize him. I'd like to think yes - and that some things are so obvious and transcendent that of course we would know... but after watching some games - I truly question if it would be that obvious or not..

I think game speed is a reason this is done - to keep the action moving.
Physical play helps compensate for a lack of true basketball skill.
Close games are more interesting and keeps viewers engaged

elvis14
02-16-2013, 08:01 AM
I've been saying this for years. Especially during the NCAA tournament. I thought our 2010 championship team won because they adjusted to the physical style of play allowed in the tournament. Z and Lance were hammering guys all over the court....because they could. The last several games we played in that tournament were extremely physical. And I'm just using that tournament as an example. I see it in all games and then it's taken to the next level in March.

In general, the physical play disrupts the flow of the game. The problem now is that when officials start calling a team tight like they did Duke Wednesday night, a bunch of fouls get called and that also disrupts the flow of the game. Of course if they started calling all the games that way, players would adjust and play a more flowing, better game of basketball.

mgtr
02-16-2013, 08:10 AM
Too rough and getting rougher. If you looked at game tapes in five year periods (sort of a stop motion thing) I am sure the difference would be glaring. How many more years before we have "cage basketball"? ;) OK, well, we are not quite there yet, but we are past the Big East of say 10 years ago, which was the poster child for rough.
I don't claim to have an answer beyond what has been posted, except maybe go back to shoot all fouls.

COYS
02-16-2013, 09:22 AM
I'm jumping in to side with the crowd who thinks the game is too rough. Now, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that sometimes that has worked to our advantage. Our 2010 team was big and physical. Tough, physical rebounding, defending, and screening was a big part of our game plan that year. And I love the way that team played. Still, over all, the physicality of college basketball is ridiculous. The adage "let 'em play," has a double meaning, in my opinion. Yes, let them play real basketball! Let them pass, dribble, and shoot without getting manhandled! Let defenders defend without worrying about catching a chicken wing elbow on a screen!

vick
02-16-2013, 10:26 AM
Absolutely. Watching a college game nowadays is like watching a Knicks-Heat game from the 90s. Of course, since then the NBA has banned hand checking and opened up driving lanes via the defensive 3 second rule, and the result has been a surge in scoring - and popularity.

It'd be great to see the NCAA follow suit; I'm sure they will, right after pigs fly.

My understanding, and I'm not a historian of NBA ball so I could very well be wrong, is that the defensive three seconds is just the last vestige of the old illegal defense rules that outlawed zone defense altogether, so it wasn't so much "we're going to not allow Mutombo to stand in the paint and this will allow drivers to score" as "we're not going to allow zone defense to encourage offenses to try to beat the defense down the court, but we aren't going to allow you to stand in the paint not guarding anyone." Maybe a subtle difference, but I think a meaningful one--although I think even this rule is a little silly.

As for the larger point, though, I totally agree. I'm not sure any actual rule changes are necessary, though, since it isn't actually legal to grab people's jerseys as they make a cut or to slide under shooters in the post, it's just a matter of enforcement. I'd actually personally prefer the NCAA to adopt the FIBA rule book, both because I prefer its rules and because I think it's ultimately good for basketball to operate as close as possible to one global set of rules, but I don't think that's either necessary or likely.

jimsumner
02-16-2013, 11:03 AM
Yes, I think the game is too physical.

And I don't think calling it tighter would make the games longer. Players have a remarkable ability to adjust to the level of physicality allowed by the officials. Call it tighter and the players will adjust and the games won't be any longer.

phaedrus
02-16-2013, 11:18 AM
[I]t's too easy to take a charge.

This is inconsistent with the rest of your statement. If you think there's too much contact and physical play, why would you want to relax foul calls when such contact is initiated by the player with the ball?

Ultrarunner
02-16-2013, 11:30 AM
The players today are stronger and the game has changed as a result.

What I would love to see is consistency by the refs!! Calling a hand check 30 feet from the basket, yet allowing an arm bar in the paint drives me nuts. Find a balance and stick with it no matter where the contact occurs on the court.

One of the interesting things in looking at the 1992 game was the physiques. If you put Laettner and Mason side by side, Mason would look like a beast with all the extra muscle he packs yet I suspect that Christian would more than hold his own due to (imo) much better basketball skills.

In regards of the fouling, I would like to see more flagrant fouls called for defenders going to "block" a shot by going through the players body. It happened to Singler in 2010 (Perdue?) and Kendall Marshall last year. These types of reckless fouls while players are airborne should be at the top of the list as the risk of serious injury is so high.

On the offensive side, start calling fouls when the shooter initiates contact by jamming their shoulder into the defender to generate space (Kendall Marshall did this masterfully last season, much to my annoyance.) And I've seen more - and better - forearm shivers in college bsasketball this year than I did on the gridiron.

willywoody
02-16-2013, 11:35 AM
It seems like it was sometime around the turn of the century the ACC started allowing the more physical style of play that had been the norm in the Big 10 and Big East, as well as the NCAA tourney, for some time. I wonder if it was a conscious effort on the part of the ACC to keep with the national game. As a result, it seems like it is much more rare for a player to foul out anymore. Star players stay on the floor which makes for better tv and may keep games closer. Maybe one of you stats guys can look into that.

Watching this UNC- UVA game right now and comparing to the '84 ACC tourney Duke -UNC matchup that was on ESPNC yesterday and it's like night and day. Players off the ball look like they're wrestling in today's game in comparison .

g-money
02-16-2013, 12:54 PM
My understanding, and I'm not a historian of NBA ball so I could very well be wrong, is that the defensive three seconds is just the last vestige of the old illegal defense rules that outlawed zone defense altogether, so it wasn't so much "we're going to not allow Mutombo to stand in the paint and this will allow drivers to score" as "we're not going to allow zone defense to encourage offenses to try to beat the defense down the court, but we aren't going to allow you to stand in the paint not guarding anyone." Maybe a subtle difference, but I think a meaningful one--although I think even this rule is a little silly.

As for the larger point, though, I totally agree. I'm not sure any actual rule changes are necessary, though, since it isn't actually legal to grab people's jerseys as they make a cut or to slide under shooters in the post, it's just a matter of enforcement. I'd actually personally prefer the NCAA to adopt the FIBA rule book, both because I prefer its rules and because I think it's ultimately good for basketball to operate as close as possible to one global set of rules, but I don't think that's either necessary or likely.

Good point - I shouldn't have overstated the value of the defensive 3 seconds rule. (And btw, it was fun to see Mutombo out there wagging his finger again last night)

I think a more important thing that has helped opened up driving lanes in the NBA is better spacing, one of Coach K's offensive tenets. Of course, it helps that NBA players can shoot.

vick
02-16-2013, 01:28 PM
Good point - I shouldn't have overstated the value of the defensive 3 seconds rule. (And btw, it was fun to see Mutombo out there wagging his finger again last night)

I think a more important thing that has helped opened up driving lanes in the NBA is better spacing, one of Coach K's offensive tenets. Of course, it helps that NBA players can shoot.

Agreed (and I think I accidentally threw in a "not" on the change for allowing zone), although it would probably help spacing as well if cutters are allowed freedom of movement without being bumped off line or grabbed--I think a true Princeton offense would be difficult to operate effectively under today's NCAA refereeing.

throatybeard
02-16-2013, 01:59 PM
Yes, I think the game is too physical.

And I don't think calling it tighter would make the games longer. Players have a remarkable ability to adjust to the level of physicality allowed by the officials. Call it tighter and the players will adjust and the games won't be any longer.

This.

It's gotten so bad that I scarcely watch any non-Duke games. I watch the Fourventeenth for the festival atmosphere, but other than that, once Duke is done, I'm totally meh.

FerryFor50
02-16-2013, 02:39 PM
Agreed (and I think I accidentally threw in a "not" on the change for allowing zone), although it would probably help spacing as well if cutters are allowed freedom of movement without being bumped off line or grabbed--I think a true Princeton offense would be difficult to operate effectively under today's NCAA refereeing.

How do shooters combat the grabbing? By two hand pushing the defenders into screens before making their cuts. It's blatant and never seems to get called. Physicality begets physicality.

The NCAA totally needs to reign it in.

And let's not get started with the wrestling matches in the post...

jv001
02-16-2013, 02:47 PM
College basketball looks like wrestling at times. It seemed to me the ACC began to let the "teams play" to adjust to other conferences that had already gone to this type play. ACC teams were at a disadvantage come NCAAT time because they were not used to this style. The basketball played years ago was a thing of beauty, not so much today. Another thing the refs do not call is palming/carrying the basketball. No wonder it's so hard to play on the ball defense. Sometimes changes are not for the good. GoDuke!

wilko
02-16-2013, 03:01 PM
The basketball played years ago was a thing of beauty, not so much today. Another thing the refs do not call is palming/carrying the basketball. No wonder it's so hard to play on the ball defense. Sometimes changes are not for the good. GoDuke!

YES YES a thousand times YES...

Bob Green
02-17-2013, 06:36 AM
I agree with those who have responded in the affirmative. Basketball is too physical. The game used to emphasize fundamental skill shooting, passing, dribbling and defending. The game was played by tall, skinny skilled performers. Now the game is played by folks who spend a lot of time lifting weights and not enough time practicing free throws.

Our next game at Virginia Tech will include excessive physical play. I watched the VT/State game yesterday with the Hokies pushing, shoving and grabbing the whole game. Mason had better be prepared to be mauled inside.

FerryFor50
02-17-2013, 07:50 AM
I agree with those who have responded in the affirmative. Basketball is too physical. The game used to emphasize fundamental skill shooting, passing, dribbling and defending. The game was played by tall, skinny skilled performers. Now the game is played by folks who spend a lot of time lifting weights and not enough time practicing free throws.

Our next game at Virginia Tech will include excessive physical play. I watched the VT/State game yesterday with the Hokies pushing, shoving and grabbing the whole game. Mason had better be prepared to be mauled inside.

And NCSU was rewarded with ~40 FT attempts. Let's hope we get THOSE officials...

allenmurray
02-17-2013, 07:37 PM
If you put Laettner and Mason side by side, Mason would look like a beast with all the extra muscle he packs yet I suspect that Christian would more than hold his own due to (imo) much better basketball skills.


That and the fact that he was a complete bada**

SoCalDukeFan
02-17-2013, 09:30 PM
Another problem is it creates inconsistent officiating.

Problem is that in the NCAAT they let them play, so now every conference lets them play.

SoCal