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pfrduke
02-13-2013, 10:14 PM
Go to Hell Carolina Go to Hell!!!!

Channing
02-13-2013, 10:15 PM
Did our guys try to just rush the court? Really?

Les Grossman
02-13-2013, 10:16 PM
Second half looked pretty good

J4Kop99
02-13-2013, 10:16 PM
It was ugly throughout, but a win is a win. Mason is going to sleep real well tonight knowing that, although he struggled mightily, his team got the W.

-Did they actually try to rush the court? What was that about? silly freshmen...

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Did our guys try to just rush the court? Really?

No. I believe that was media, security, coaches, cheerleaders, etc.

superdave
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Did our guys try to just rush the court? Really?

No. Managers and event staff. Clock and horn not synched up.

bbosbbos
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Do not know what to say.

Les Grossman
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Did our guys try to just rush the court? Really?

K waived them off.
thank you!

scottdude8
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Someone please tell me court-rushing wasn't even a passing thought in the mind there, let alone something a few actually did. That's not the taste we should have in our mouths after a fantastic effort and a great win.

chaosmage
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
on K for not letting the fans rush. And even better job by our fans and students for showing respect.

Good game and I'll be wearing my tie and hat tomorrow! :-) GO DEVILS!

freedevil
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Really disliked Quinn's first few minutes. Really liked the way he turned it around. On the other side, I can't remember the last time I watched a UNC-Duke game and didn't think UNC's point guard was impressive...

Go Duke!

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Well, we played an awful basketball game, but got the W anyway. It was nice of Mason to finally get his head on straight down the stretch. There was no excuse for how badly he let McAdoo outplay him in the first half, but it was a different story in the second half.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:18 PM
No. I believe that was media, security, coaches, cheerleaders, etc.

Yup. Much like the alleged court rushing after Dockery's miracle 3.

bbosbbos
02-13-2013, 10:19 PM
We are Duke. Best team in the nation.

J4Kop99
02-13-2013, 10:19 PM
"I've always said this is one of the best games in college sports." -Mason Plumlee

Have we already found our QOTY?

subzero02
02-13-2013, 10:19 PM
A win is a win but we have work to do... I am glad that we play them again. I am still want to squash them

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:19 PM
Yup. Much like the alleged court rushing after Dockery's miracle 3.

The Dockery one seemed to have a few more people. This one was just Dickie V said it and people will run with it.

And we did rush the court last night.

Papa John
02-13-2013, 10:19 PM
Second half looked pretty good

You lucky dog, you!

scottdude8
02-13-2013, 10:20 PM
Can't give Mason QOTY after, sorry to say, a very uninspired effort from him. He bailed us out with great FT shooting, but he seemed asleep for much of the game. Even with foul trouble you can't play matador defense.

That being said, we won. We beat UNC. They went to hell. That's all that matters.

KandG
02-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Positives: Win over Carolina at home to celebrate Coach K's birthday. Made free throws when it counted.

Negatives: Second straight terrible game against a terrible team, which depended heavily on the other team being terrible when it counted.

I guess they all count as wins in the end, but that was not impressive. One assist in the first half? Not getting in the bonus until 30 seconds left in the second half? Painful to watch.

JBDuke
02-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Pretty sure the students weren't trying to rush the court. It looked to me more like Coach K was trying to get the staff off the court until the refs signalled that the game was finally over.

mapei
02-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Again, Mason - as badly as he played at times - made every critical free throw.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Did our guys try to just rush the court? Really?

scrub grad students don't know what's up

Channing
02-13-2013, 10:21 PM
Just rewarched. Not rushing the court was media etc

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:22 PM
Again, Mason - as badly as he played at times - made every critical free throw.

and still had 18 and 12....

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:22 PM
The Dockery one seemed to have a few more people. This one was just Dickie V said it and people will run with it.

And we did rush the court last night.

Those people were the Duke walk-ons/staff running out to mob Dockery.

pamtar
02-13-2013, 10:22 PM
Yup. Much like the alleged court rushing after Dockery's miracle 3.

I would have rushed the court after that shot. However, thats the only time in my 25 year history as a Duke fan that I would have done so. Dunno why, just would have.

dukelifer
02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Second half looked pretty good

Duke played well enough to win. UNC has no head- no point guard who can get them to play together. They used their athleticism and it almost worked. Good news is that Duke gutted out a win and did not play out of their heads to do it. A lot of solid contributions from role guys. Thornton was huge and Hairston had a few nice moments. Amile fought hard for rebounds. Rasheed was huge and is just getting better. Mason finally slowed down and took advantage. Overall a good win against a team that has issues but can be dangerous.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
and still had 18 and 12....

Yeah, it's amazing that Mason had perhaps his worst first 30 minutes of the game... and still reached his season averages.

Les Grossman
02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Again, Mason - as badly as he played at times - made every critical free throw.
Yes, and he's been doing that lately. When he stepped to the line down the stretch tonight, it just seemed clear they were going down.

along the same lines, QC made his look easy at the end, too

loran16
02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Guys we didn't win this game. Carolina threw the game away. This game was terrible.

Props:

Josh Hairston: Okay for one play, Josh was vintage "Terrible long range jumper that I don't even try to rebound" (which got worse when Mason needlessly then picked up his 4th). That was bad. But when Mason came out with 3 fouls, Josh actually looked....good?! Moreover they actually ran two straight conventional pick and roll plays for Hairston. I don't know about you guys, but I've rarely seen Duke run a conventional pick and roll. The first time, the guard passed to Hairston who kicked it out for an open 3 in a possession that eventually ended with 2 points. The second time Curry kept the ball and used the extra space to hit a 3. Really nice looking offensive plays from Hairston. I'm stunned.

Slops:

Everyone Else. Seriously, the O looked slow at times. TT was making shots but still throwing around dangerous dangerous passes leading to turnovers (classic example: Sloppiness in the rebounding leads to the ball slipping into TT's hands at the FT Line. Rather than kick it out, TT throws a no look pass to where Mason may have been, only Mason was starting to get back on D resulting in a turnover. Ugh). Curry took off more than a few possessions - necessary for his health i know - but EVEN DOWN THE STRETCH (Memorably on the key Curry 3 to put Duke up 8, Curry actually just sits in a corner taking the possession off while Duke gets a bad shot off....which results in a long rebound RIGHT TO SETH. Luck saves bad play).

The Rebounding was horrendous and the help defense was....non-existent? This was arguably the most confusing thing - Duke traditionally gives up a ton of O Boards because over-helping leads to non-boxed out players. Instead Duke rarely ever helped on drives and still couldn't box out. What a joke.

Mega Slops:

Karl Hess: Every ticky tack went Carolina's way until the end. Mason's third foul came on a McAdoo over the back. Ugh.

MCFinARL
02-13-2013, 10:23 PM
Second half looked pretty good

that was definitely the half to see. First half was pretty painful. We looked tight at best, completely lost at worst; UNC looked relaxed. Second half, thankfully, they tightened up while we looked a lot better (though far from perfect).

CLW
02-13-2013, 10:24 PM
what an ugly W. the turnover issues of the 1st half were corrected as i believe we only turned the ball over twice in the 2nd half and we hit the free throws down the stretch but a BIG assist has to go to UNC for just playing awful basketball down the stretch.

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:24 PM
Those people were the Duke walk-ons/staff running out to mob Dockery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16za9PkU9Wk

I don't know how to link these things with the time but go to :27 seconds. Duke has a ton of staff wearing random gear. It wasn't a full on rush but some fans definitely got in there.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Yeah, it's amazing that Mason had perhaps his worst first 30 minutes of the game... and still reached his season averages.

credit carolina with keeping him out of position. he was never anywhere close to the block.

Kdogg
02-13-2013, 10:25 PM
K waived them off.
thank you!

There was time on the clock. He was telling the team to get back.

mgtr
02-13-2013, 10:25 PM
First half terrible, second half fair. But, a win is a win. Why, against poor defense, does Mason set up out at the FT line instead of down on the blocks? Makes no sense to me, but of course I haven't won 94X games.

mgtr
02-13-2013, 10:26 PM
There was time on the clock. He was telling the team to get back.

Right, we don't need another Stanford band problem!

pamtar
02-13-2013, 10:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16za9PkU9Wk

I don't know how to link these things with the time but go to :27 seconds. Duke has a ton of staff wearing random gear. It wasn't a full on rush but some fans definitely got in there.

thank you. That was the highlight of the night.

Wander
02-13-2013, 10:26 PM
Those people were the Duke walk-ons/staff running out to mob Dockery.

What? The court was definitely rushed for the Dockery game. And now I'm angry at myself for contributing to the court rushing discussion. Dammit.

Roy finally went small ball. Big part of why UNC played well.

NashvilleDevil
02-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Duke beats Carolina and instead of enjoying the win I am seeing a lot of complaining about what is wrong.

Great job in the second half and it's always easier to fall asleep when Carolina has been beat.

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Thornton made some huge plays in this game. MOM. It is amazing to have these type of guys who can make the winning plays but don't need the shots or the minutes. Those are the players who make Duke, Duke. Both TT and Hairston have their ups and downs but they've won us multiple games throughout the season.

Amile had a nice calming effect in the first half to keep the game close. We had to go small towards the end but he showed some flashes to build on.

Alex has to work on his defense. He couldn't stay with many on the UNC squad. Hopefully he can take a big step forward.

superdave
02-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Tyler played a great game tonight. He was checking MacAdoo, jumping the passing lane, fighting over screens, and hitting 3s. He keyed our defensive resurgence in the 2nd half after a pathetic 1st half defensive effort. He made a lot of his teammates look good tonight. Kudos to Tyler.

The game as a whole was ugly basketball. Too many charges, no boxing out, no helpside d. And that does not even get into how bad this Unc team is, it's just a short summary of Duke's shortcomings. Carolina was worse. They are a collection of role players who feel like they just met for a YMCA lunchtime game. No chemistry or leadership. I hope the next Duke game provides a little more basketball beauty than this one did.

I thought we started flat, which is disappointing vs Unc and because the team had emphasized starting games well. The turnovers were evidence our guys were hurrying and anxious, as well as a little lethargic and not crisp. I thought our seniors would carry us through that inevitable stretch but Sulaimon and Cook did. Once we settled down, we still had to make adjustments to stop Carolina's small spread-drive lineup. Our D improved a lot to start the 2nd half. We fought over screens to take away 3s and we moved our feet on D. We just never quite played good help D.

Our guys played just well enough to win tonight. I'll take a win against Unc any day. But I wanted more. I know this group of guys wont be satisfied. They know they got away with one tonight. Unc is that bad.

Super "A little disappointed and wanting more" Dave

Utley
02-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Found a way to win. I love the way someone always (almost always) steps,up - I thought Tyler did a great job steadying the team.

I hate that I had to pull out the 2010 Final 4 shirt for the second half. It did its job (which will never get recognized in the box score ) - hopefully didn't consume too much karma.

vick
02-13-2013, 10:28 PM
I am amazed that minutes after a win over our archrivals, we are sitting here arguing about an alleged court rush in 2005.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:29 PM
There was no reason to expect UNC to play well enough for 40 minutes to outright beat us. We played about as badly as we could for 25 minutes, yet were only down 8. Then, for the last 15 minutes, we played slightly smarter. And once we did that, the differences showed up.

UNC has a couple of very good shooters in Bullock and Hairston, and their bigs can run and jump. But they have no poise, no leadership, no PG, and no consistency. That's why they have struggled against good teams this year. They just don't have the game (decision-making is a big part of talent, and UNC doesn't have that).

It stunk that we came out and played so awfully for so much of the game. Had we played with poise in the first half, this would have been a 20-point win. But, oh well, we'll take the W. Very pleased with the last 15 minutes of the game.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:30 PM
I am amazed that minutes after a win over our archrivals, we are sitting here arguing about an alleged court rush in 2005.

with how badly we played, understandable, but....

DOESNT MATTER; BEAT CAROLINA!!!


GTHC!!!!

MCFinARL
02-13-2013, 10:31 PM
We are Duke. Best team in the nation.


The Dockery one seemed to have a few more people. This one was just Dickie V said it and people will run with it.

And we did rush the court last night.

Okay, but last night is the clear appropriate exception to the "no rushing the court at Cameron" rule. Managers win on a buzzer beating three? Gotta give 'em the court rush--they earned it.

dukelifer
02-13-2013, 10:31 PM
Guys we didn't win this game. Carolina threw the game away. This game was terrible.

Props:

Josh Hairston: Okay for one play, Josh was vintage "Terrible long range jumper that I don't even try to rebound" (which got worse when Mason needlessly then picked up his 4th). That was bad. But when Mason came out with 3 fouls, Josh actually looked....good?! Moreover they actually ran two straight conventional pick and roll plays for Hairston. I don't know about you guys, but I've rarely seen Duke run a conventional pick and roll. The first time, the guard passed to Hairston who kicked it out for an open 3 in a possession that eventually ended with 2 points. The second time Curry kept the ball and used the extra space to hit a 3. Really nice looking offensive plays from Hairston. I'm stunned.

Slops:

Everyone Else. Seriously, the O looked slow at times. TT was making shots but still throwing around dangerous dangerous passes leading to turnovers (classic example: Sloppiness in the rebounding leads to the ball slipping into TT's hands at the FT Line. Rather than kick it out, TT throws a no look pass to where Mason may have been, only Mason was starting to get back on D resulting in a turnover. Ugh). Curry took off more than a few possessions - necessary for his health i know - but EVEN DOWN THE STRETCH (Memorably on the key Curry 3 to put Duke up 8, Curry actually just sits in a corner taking the possession off while Duke gets a bad shot off....which results in a long rebound RIGHT TO SETH. Luck saves bad play).

The Rebounding was horrendous and the help defense was....non-existent? This was arguably the most confusing thing - Duke traditionally gives up a ton of O Boards because over-helping leads to non-boxed out players. Instead Duke rarely ever helped on drives and still couldn't box out. What a joke.

Mega Slops:

Karl Hess: Every ticky tack went Carolina's way until the end. Mason's third foul came on a McAdoo over the back. Ugh.
Duke won the game. Yes UNC looked lost but mostly after Duke took the lead by hitting some big shots. Duke did not play well and made a ton of mistakes. Once Mason settled down- he was able to score easily . Not sure why it took so long. Foul trouble made the game ugly at times. UNC did not take advantage- had the wrong guys shooting and bricking and the result was a win by Duke. But Duke hit big shots to take the lead and UNC wilted.

lotusland
02-13-2013, 10:32 PM
I love beating Carolina but Ryan or no Ryan I hate that we are depending on a 4 guard lineup this late in the season. I hope MP3, Amile and Murphy can step it up by tournament time.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2013, 10:32 PM
Anyone who bitches about any aspect of a win in this rivalry is insane. Any win is good. Hell, great.

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:33 PM
I am amazed that minutes after a win over our archrivals, we are sitting here arguing about an alleged court rush in 2005.

It is a message board. It is kinda what we do. Besides it wasn't a great game by Duke. Had some great moments but apart from those few games a couple weeks ago, this team is still struggling without Kelly. I'm not sure that is a top 5 team out there at least when they aren't playing like they did against NC State.

Any win against UNC is a good one and UNC isn't as bad as some here think but Duke isn't as good as some here think either. But it was a good win with some exciting moments. But if we didn't have our little arguments, what would we have?

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:34 PM
Anyone who bitches about any aspect of a win. In this America is insane. Any win is good. He'll, great.

I think that's silly....Enjoy the wins, we beat carolina, as a fan, i'm ecstatic, but do you think K comes and tells the team "we won so we won't even bother practicing since we have nothing to work on"

obviously not!

he'll find the things that can be improved upon, regardless of the final score.

so i also find no fault in fans also finding things that can be improved upon.....and I generally do too....but in this case

doesn't matter GTHC!!!

9F9F9F

Duvall
02-13-2013, 10:34 PM
I love beating Carolina but Ryan or no Ryan I hate that we are depending on a 4 guard lineup this late in the season. I hope MP3, Amile and Murphy can step it up by tournament time.

Well, Duke played a 4-gard lineup because UNC was playing a 4-guard lineup. It's not like anyone thought that was Duke's optimum lineup in a vacuum.

vick
02-13-2013, 10:35 PM
So, UNC's starters played 34, 36, 34, 34, and 30 minutes, with a backup getting 20. The rest of the team totaled 12 minutes. In my opinion, that's by far the biggest difference between the way UNC played tonight and the way they've played over the course of the season. When they play their best players, they've got some talent, though obviously our sloppy play early contributed to it.

roywhite
02-13-2013, 10:35 PM
Both teams played so hard. You can watch a ton of games and not see that kind of effort.

Intensity outdid artistry.

Good guys win. Works for me.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:36 PM
Both teams played so hard. You can watch a ton of games and not see that kind of effort.

Intensity outdid artistry.

Good guys win. Works for me.

good guys win....bad guys lose

DUKE PREVAILS!

OldPhiKap
02-13-2013, 10:37 PM
I think that's silly....Enjoy the wins, we beat carolina, as a fan, i'm ecstatic, but do you think K comes and tells the team "we won so we won't even bother practicing since we have nothing to work on"

obviously not!

he'll find the things that can be improved upon, regardless of the final score.

so i also find no fault in fans also finding things that can be improved upon.....and I generally do too....but in this case

doesn't matter GTHC!!!

9F9F9F
Since I am not the coach, I will stick with the former and not the latter.

9F. Suck it Roy.

ice-9
02-13-2013, 10:37 PM
Curry took off more than a few possessions - necessary for his health i know - but EVEN DOWN THE STRETCH (Memorably on the key Curry 3 to put Duke up 8, Curry actually just sits in a corner taking the possession off while Duke gets a bad shot off....which results in a long rebound RIGHT TO SETH. Luck saves bad play).

Curry's on the ball defense wasn't the greatest. Was it just selective watching (I was working while the game was going on) or was UNC trying to isolate 1-on-1 against Curry? I saw UNC switching until it got the match-up it wanted and the UNC player drove past Curry easily several times.

wsb3
02-13-2013, 10:37 PM
We beat Carolina. I will take it..

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:38 PM
So, UNC's starters played 34, 36, 34, 34, and 30 minutes, with a backup getting 20. The rest of the team totaled 12 minutes. In my opinion, that's by far the biggest difference between the way UNC played tonight and the way they've played over the course of the season. When they play their best players, they've got some talent, though obviously our sloppy play early contributed to it.

The move to put Hairston in the starting lineup (and then continue to play him for major minutes) certainly was a good one. It was a move Williams should have made at the beginning of the season.

But even with Hairston and Bullock playing major minutes, they have terrible post play and no PG play. Can't expect to beat good teams with that mix, and thus we won in spite of playing one of our worst games for most of the game.

cptnflash
02-13-2013, 10:38 PM
Like many others on this board, I have been a frequent critic of Roy Williams' coaching ability. But tonight, I have to hand it to the ol' hound dog. He outcoached K, and if he wasn't saddled with significantly inferior talent and playing on the road, he would have beaten us. His gameplan was pretty simple:

On offense:
1) Play small and challenge us to contain dribble penetration (clearly not our strength)
2) Crash the offensive glass and take advantage of our lack of defensive rebounding (boy, did they ever)

On defense:
3) Flop like crazy against Mason and hope you ocassionally get the call (they did)
4) Run us off the 3 point line and force us to take tough twos (which pretty much worked, except they forgot about Tyler)

So as much as I hate to say this... a tip of the cap to you, Ol' Roy. Well played, sir. If you had the horses (or if your horses could have made free throws), you would have won.

JBDuke
02-13-2013, 10:39 PM
I love beating Carolina but Ryan or no Ryan I hate that we are depending on a 4 guard lineup this late in the season. I hope MP3, Amile and Murphy can step it up by tournament time.

I think this was a tactical move, rather than a strategic one. We were not able to impose our will on Carolina, so we adjusted to how they were playing. They went small, and Coach had to go small to match it, as our D was not effective in checking them in the first half. I would expect that we won't see this on a frequent basis.

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:40 PM
I love beating Carolina but Ryan or no Ryan I hate that we are depending on a 4 guard lineup this late in the season. I hope MP3, Amile and Murphy can step it up by tournament time.

Well without the 4 guard line up, Duke loses. It was a great adjustment by K and it was only in response to UNC. Hairston can't play against a guard so he was rendered useless except for backing up MP2. Amile did well in there and I thought he could have played some more (although their seemed to be a lack of communication with him on some screens) but TT did just as well and provided so much needed offense.

With Kelly, they don't have to play 4 guards b/c he can guard guys like Bullock or PJ Hairston. Not to mention, with Kelly, Mason doesn't have to worry as much about fouls. With Kelly and Mason, they have 2 guys to guard the rim and Duke doesn't have to worry as much about keeping guys in front of them.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:41 PM
Like many others on this board, I have been a frequent critic of Roy Williams' coaching ability. But tonight, I have to hand it to the ol' hound dog. He outcoached K, and if he wasn't saddled with significantly inferior talent and playing on the road, he would have beaten us. His gameplan was pretty simple:

On offense:
1) Play small and challenge us to contain dribble penetration (clearly not our strength)
2) Crash the offensive glass and take advantage of our lack of defensive rebounding (boy, did they ever)

On defense:
3) Flop like crazy against Mason and hope you ocassionally get the call (they did)
4) Run us off the 3 point line and force us to take tough twos (which pretty much worked, except they forgot about Tyler)

So as much as I hate to say this... a tip of the cap to you, Ol' Roy. Well played, sir. If you had the horses (or if your horses could have made free throws), you would have won.

Well said. Though I'll say this: it's amazing that it took this long for Williams to figure it out.

But given that he figured it out, the gameplan clearly caught us off guard. That got UNC rolling early, and we got rattled. Once we finally settled down (thanks to Thornton and Sulaimon) the difference in talent showed through. Even though we weren't playing our best.

loran16
02-13-2013, 10:41 PM
Duke won the game. Yes UNC looked lost but mostly after Duke took the lead by hitting some big shots. Duke did not play well and made a ton of mistakes. Once Mason settled down- he was able to score easily . Not sure why it took so long. Foul trouble made the game ugly at times. UNC did not take advantage- had the wrong guys shooting and bricking and the result was a win by Duke. But Duke hit big shots to take the lead and UNC wilted.

If UNC makes FTs down the stretch it's not clear who would've won. And FTs are not something Duke affects. Hence UNC losing the game.

Utley
02-13-2013, 10:42 PM
I thought Rasheed played pretty solidly as well. His D is great as is his playmaking. Josh stepped us as well - except for the ill advised shot.

I did note Strickland and Hairston giving some love to K during the post-game handshakes - pretty classy move.

pamtar
02-13-2013, 10:42 PM
Duke beats Carolina and instead of enjoying the win I am seeing a lot of complaining about what is wrong.

Great job in the second half and it's always easier to fall asleep when Carolina has been beat.

Good point, but did you not see the woeful shooting performance exhibited by the heeyuls in the second half? We should have won by 20. Not trying to be a entitled jerk but damn. Still, pitchforks for the observation.

vick
02-13-2013, 10:42 PM
The move to put Hairston in the starting lineup (and then continue to play him for major minutes) certainly was a good one. It was a move Williams should have made at the beginning of the season.

But even with Hairston and Bullock playing major minutes, they have terrible post play and no PG play. Can't expect to beat good teams with that mix, and thus we won in spite of playing one of our worst games for most of the game.

Oh I agree, they're nowhere near to being one of the best teams in the country regardless of which players they play. But I think they'd clearly be a better team with this rotation than what they have been doing (maybe borderline ranked, maybe not).

loran16
02-13-2013, 10:43 PM
Curry's on the ball defense wasn't the greatest. Was it just selective watching (I was working while the game was going on) or was UNC trying to isolate 1-on-1 against Curry? I saw UNC switching until it got the match-up it wanted and the UNC player drove past Curry easily several times.

I think it was selective - I saw Sheed and others beat countless times on drives. That said you're not wrong - Curry was one of our bad defenders on the perimeter last year (see Tommy's tracking) though Dre was our worst, and he's the worst of our 4 guards at D - AND hes hurt. It's not a strong suit.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:43 PM
If UNC makes FTs down the stretch it's not clear who would've won. And FTs are not something Duke affects. Hence UNC losing the game.

What do you want us to say? Did we play like crap for most of the game? Yes. Is that a permanent affliction? No. Enjoy the fact that we got the win. Enjoy the fact that, even when UNC plays their best players and we play like crap, they aren't good enough to get it done.

Just doesn't seem worth it to watch if you aren't going to be happy when the team wins.

superdave
02-13-2013, 10:43 PM
9F. Suck it Roy.

Ditto.

I screamed at Roy after Bullocks fouled Sulaimon at the end. Roy is such a ninny.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-13-2013, 10:43 PM
Encouraging game for UNC dispite the loss.

I thought Roy had an excellent game plan and if the players had done a better job of execution in the 2nd half they could have won that game.

Unfortunately some pitiful 2nd half foul shooting, poor decisions with the ball leading to bad shots or TO's...and untimely fouls late cost them the game.

In a nutshell, UNC didn't make the basketball plays you have to make to win tight games, and Duke did.

I was impressed with Paige, even tho he didn't shoot well. He was a solid leader for his first game in Cameron.

Hopefully this game puts a chip on UNC's shoulder because they can now clearly see how much better they could play after that first half. They have to finish plays, and games better.

For Duke, I thought Cook played well.
Mason was lucky he didn't foul out mid way through the second half.
Curry was the difference for Duke. He's a player with a killers instinct and he'll pull the trigger. Even tho he didn't have his best game, he was clutch when he was needed and his big 3 gave the team energy which rattled UNC for a few minutes there and allowed Duke to extend the lead just enough hang on.

Congrats on a tough win.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:43 PM
If UNC makes FTs down the stretch it's not clear who would've won. And FTs are not something Duke affects. Hence UNC losing the game.

hypotheticals.


GTHC

timmy c
02-13-2013, 10:44 PM
Gutsy win. Kept me on the edge of my seat until the very end. Nice to see the guys fight thru adversity.

I thought Unc played the first half about as well as I've seen them play all year. Playing small suits them well.

Bring on the terps!

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:44 PM
The move to put Hairston in the starting lineup (and then continue to play him for major minutes) certainly was a good one. It was a move Williams should have made at the beginning of the season.

But even with Hairston and Bullock playing major minutes, they have terrible post play and no PG play. Can't expect to beat good teams with that mix, and thus we won in spite of playing one of our worst games for most of the game.

Well it really only takes 2-3 players for a talented team. As terrible as JMM was in the second half, he was that good (alright maybe not that good) in the first half. And Bullock and Hairston are very talented and Duke had no answer.

And Duke without Kelly is not that much more talented than UNC. More talented yes, but it isn't that big. It took a great game out of TT and UNC shooting itself in the foot to win this game. I know you think that them shooting themselves in the foot was proof of their lack of talent but if they just force fed Reggie and PJ, that game might have ended differently. So maybe 1-5 they aren't very talented but I'm not sure if we stopped PJ and Reggie or they did.

Saratoga2
02-13-2013, 10:45 PM
UNC appeared to want to stop the 3's so the Duke strategy was to get the ball in to Mason. The guards tried to do that and were forcing the ball and getting turnovers. Mason picked up his first two fouls on offense and seemed to hesitate when he had a chance for a dunk. He put himself into a position where he shied away from anything like help defense and even rebounding. In the second half he picked it up but did not really start to do much until near the end. There must be a better way of utilizing Mason.

I thought Josh looked bad in the first few minutes and was pulled for Amile, who I thought played well. Alex got some time but did nothing notable. Frankly I wonder why Josh gets so much PT when Amile seems to make more positive plays.

To me, Cook was the best player on the floor tonight and despite a few turnovers was the difference in the game. We went with some 4 guard lineups and Rasheed has been playing better. Still young but there are enough good defensive plays and he is a threat offensively so I feel very positive about his game. Seth was okay tonight but tends to struggle against good sized athletic guards. Tyler really helped with his shooting and defensive. If only he could avoid silly fouls that lead to opportunities to the opponent in tight games. Twice going down the stretch he made fouls that he should have avoided letting UNC get closer.

Got a win with Mason playing poor defense for 3/4 of the game and with too many turnovers. We hit our foul shots and they missed a lot of theirs. Good win for us and a clear example of our need to get Ryan back soon.

NashvilleDevil
02-13-2013, 10:47 PM
Good point, but did you not see the woeful shooting performance exhibited by the heeyuls in the second half? We should have won by 20. Not trying to be a entitled jerk but damn. Still, pitchforks for the observation.

I agree that there was a point where Duke could've blown the game wide open and they missed shots or got careless with the ball. But the stretch where Duke took the lead for good was classic Duke and that 3-4 minute stretch was enough tonight.

uh_no
02-13-2013, 10:47 PM
Encouraging game for UNC dispite the loss.

I thought Roy had an excellent game plan and if the players had done a better job of execution in the 2nd half they could have won that game.

Unfortunately some pitiful 2nd half foul shooting, poor decisions with the ball leading to bad shots or TO's...and untimely fouls late cost them the game.

In a nutshell, UNC didn't make the basketball plays you have to make to win tight games, and Duke did.

I was impressed with Paige, even tho he didn't shoot well. He was a solid leader for his first game in Cameron.

Hopefully this game puts a chip on UNC's shoulder because they can now clearly see how much better they could play after that first half. They have to finish plays, and games better.

For Duke, I thought Cook played well.
Mason was lucky he didn't foul out mid way through the second half.
Curry was the difference for Duke. He's a player with a killers instinct and he'll pull the trigger. Even tho he didn't have his best game, he was clutch when he was needed and his big 3 gave the team energy which rattled UNC for a few minutes there and allowed Duke to extend the lead just enough hang on.

Congrats on a tough win.

great assessment!

I think, though, you're underselling mason a tad.....he played like chicken stock, and still ended up with 18 and 12....doesn't matter whether its Free throws, or chippies, or whatever, he generated that offense. As ugly as it was, he's still our rock, and UNC did a great job forcing him out of positiong, which prevented him from having an even BETTER game,

having ryan back will help him a lot, i think

superdave
02-13-2013, 10:47 PM
Like many others on this board, I have been a frequent critic of Roy Williams' coaching ability. But tonight, I have to hand it to the ol' hound dog. He outcoached K, and if he wasn't saddled with significantly inferior talent and playing on the road, he would have beaten us. His gameplan was pretty simple:

On offense:
1) Play small and challenge us to contain dribble penetration (clearly not our strength)
2) Crash the offensive glass and take advantage of our lack of defensive rebounding (boy, did they ever)

On defense:
3) Flop like crazy against Mason and hope you ocassionally get the call (they did)
4) Run us off the 3 point line and force us to take tough twos (which pretty much worked, except they forgot about Tyler)

So as much as I hate to say this... a tip of the cap to you, Ol' Roy. Well played, sir. If you had the horses (or if your horses could have made free throws), you would have won.

Great analysis here. Unc had 18 offensive rebounds. Most of them were by guards as well. Bullock 3, Paige 2, McD 2, Hairston 7.

Coach K (post gamer) just said putting Bullocks at the 4 was a good move and got us into foul trouble. He blamed our TOs as well. Special praise for Tyler specifically.

InSpades
02-13-2013, 10:47 PM
I really liked the effort out of Rasheed tonight. I thought he did a lot of positive things and he played a ton of minutes. He had 5 of Duke's 9 assists. He did a good job creating easy shots which were few and far between tonight.

Mason made scoring look *so* easy sometimes. I wish we had gone to him more. Glad he turned things around in the 2nd half.

Lots of credit to K for sitting Mason in the 2nd half. I think that was the turning point in the game. Josh came in and the team played some really intense defense. When Mason finally got back on the court he was a big factor again like we needed.

Any win over Carolina is a good win but I think I speak for us all when I say "Get well soon Ryan!!". I think his health is the key to a National Championship run.

tbyers11
02-13-2013, 10:49 PM
I was shocked by Ol' Roy finally doing what about everyone in the world has said he should be doing all year in shortening the bench and going small with 4 guards/wings around McAdoo. James was out, but Simmons, Hubert, Johnson and Tokoto played a combined 12 minutes. This small lineup took Duke off guard in the first half and helped UNC's hot start. We helped by looking out of sync and making very poor decisions for most of the first half.

In the second half we mostly played a 4 guard lineup with Tyler and and made enough big plays at the start of the second half and FTs late to win. Defense was much better at cutting off driving lanes and denying threes. Bullock's 3rd foul and Roy keeping him out for a long stretch afterward was nearly as big a play as Mason's early 3rd foul in the 2nd half.

Not aesthetically pleasing (for the most part) but Carolina going to hell is all that matters now.

P.S. Glad Roy saved a timeout to pull that halfcourt pass play with 5 seconds left. I wish that Mason would have gone up strong to block PJ Hairston's dunk in the final seconds. I've got no problem with Hairston trying to dunk there, but I also having no problem with Mason trying to swat that and not really care if he fouls him and knocks him hard to the ground either ;)

GTHC!!!!!!!!

lotusland
02-13-2013, 10:49 PM
Well, Duke played a 4-gard lineup because UNC was playing a 4-guard lineup. It's not like anyone thought that was Duke's optimum lineup in a vacuum.

So if they played a five guard lineup we'd play 5 too? I think a more accurate statement would be that we played a 4 guard lineup because our traditional lineup was ineffective against their 4 guard lineup.

it worked and we won so i'll take it.

AsiaMinor
02-13-2013, 10:49 PM
Keep this up and I'll have to put Baylor Med Center on speed dial.

ncexnyc
02-13-2013, 10:49 PM
I was considering not accepting my sodas tomorrow, but on second thought what the heck. A win is a win and this isn't figure skating where you get style points.

Not a great game from Mason as JMM was schooling him for most of the game, but as others have already mentioned Mason finished with a nice stat line and made his free throws at the end.

Seth definitely had trouble with a much bigger man guarding him, but that shouldn't be news to anyone on this board.

Quinn was very good, after his shakey start.

Rasheed was outstanding for the most part. It's often hard to remember that he's only a freshman.

Amile did a lot of the dirty work on the backboards. Again, as has been posted here numerous times, once he bulks up a bit, he'll be a beast.

Josh banged as only Josh can. The move by Coach K to replace Mason with Josh and go small was the turning point in the game. It seemed that everyone realized they couldn't wait for Mason to save us and each of the players on the court picked up their intensity.

Tyler was clearly the MOTM. Didn't get flustered and has the knack for coming up big in crunch time. We'll never really know what would have happened if he wasn't able to get that shot off and draw iron near the end of the game.

roywhite
02-13-2013, 10:49 PM
Duke 73 -- UNC 68 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=206391966)

Some of the team stats are very similar; same number of made field goals, rebounds very close; Duke with only one more made 3 than UNC.

Biggest discrepancy is FT%; Duke 17-20 and UNC 13-23

sagegrouse
02-13-2013, 10:50 PM
Much better defense in the second half.

Q: How does Mason look awful most of the game and then take over and reach his season averages?
A: He really was the best player on the court, even though he didn't play like it.

Thornton's best game at Duke. MOM? May have to choose Quinn, but TT deserves a lot of credit.

Rasheed Sulaimon! He was the only Duke player with energy in the first half.

TO's!?! Seventeen damned TO's! Think McFly! Think!

Tar Heel assessment -- pretty good game. I haven't seen them play as well.

For UNC: Bench player P.J. Hairston started and scored 23. UNC's defense was excellent -- a lot of guys in light blue played hard. I hate it when they do that!

sagegrouse

throatybeard
02-13-2013, 10:51 PM
I think, though, you're underselling mason a tad.....he played like chicken stock, and still ended up with 18 and 12....doesn't matter whether its Free throws, or chippies, or whatever, he generated that offense. As ugly as it was, he's still our rock, and UNC did a great job forcing him out of positiong, which prevented him from having an even BETTER game

Wheat is congenitally incapable of giving a Duke post man credit. It is what it is. Elton Brand could dunk on his face and he would say we were weak in the post.

IBleedBlue
02-13-2013, 10:51 PM
The move to put Hairston in the starting lineup (and then continue to play him for major minutes) certainly was a good one. It was a move Williams should have made at the beginning of the season.

If coach williams keeps Hairston in the starting line up for our game at Dean Dome, we should unleash Ryan Kelly that night. May be he will hurry up and call a timeout in the first minute to make the substitution.
On the same note, Jeanine Edwards mentioned that coach Collins told her that they expect to get him back by ACC tournament. I am hoping he comes back atleast 2 games before the ACC tournament.

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:51 PM
Well it really only takes 2-3 players for a talented team. As terrible as JMM was in the second half, he was that good (alright maybe not that good) in the first half. And Bullock and Hairston are very talented and Duke had no answer.

Except that when one of those 2-3 isn't a PG, and none of the 2-3 can handle the ball, it's very hard to be a talented team. None of Hairston, McAdoo, and Bullock can handle the ball.

And for all the positives that McAdoo had in the first half, he finished with 9 points, 8 rebounds, and 4-12 shooting (1-5 from the line). That's terrible.


And Duke without Kelly is not that much more talented than UNC. More talented yes, but it isn't that big. It took a great game out of TT and UNC shooting itself in the foot to win this game. I know you think that them shooting themselves in the foot was proof of their lack of talent but if they just force fed Reggie and PJ, that game might have ended differently. So maybe 1-5 they aren't very talented but I'm not sure if we stopped PJ and Reggie or they did.

But they ALWAYS seem to shoot themselves in the foot against good teams this year. That's just part of who they are. And it's because they don't have ballhandlers/playmakers, and they don't have good post play. They just aren't that good.

Even as badly as we played, we got the win. I think that says all there is to say about the talent difference. We have the two most talented players (even though one of them had an awful night). Then UNC and Duke each have 2 or 3 players that could be the 3rd-7th-best player.

This game played out as perfectly as it could for UNC (no Kelly, Hairston and Bullock shot/scored well, Mason and our guards got in foul trouble and couldn't hit shots. Despite that, they couldn't keep a lead. And once we stopped playing crappy, we pulled ahead.

loran16
02-13-2013, 10:52 PM
What do you want us to say? Did we play like crap for most of the game? Yes. Is that a permanent affliction? No. Enjoy the fact that we got the win. Enjoy the fact that, even when UNC plays their best players and we play like crap, they aren't good enough to get it done.

Just doesn't seem worth it to watch if you aren't going to be happy when the team wins.

Cmon man. I can enjoy the win and at the same time post on the board that it was worrying and that the other team basically handed us the victory. UNC is bad this year (sorry Wheat).

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 10:53 PM
So if they played a five guard lineup we'd play 5 too? I think a more accurate statement would be that we played a 4 guard lineup because our traditional lineup was ineffective against their 4 guard lineup.

it worked and we won so i'll take it.

Well the point is, our 4 spot is mostly a defensive spot that provides limited offense. So a team can go big or small at the 4 and get away with it. Not to mention, UNC has some big guards and it'll be pretty similar to Duke playing Parker at the 4 next year. But if UNC goes 5 guards, they have nobody to guard Plumlee. But they can get away with Bullock on Hairston/Amile b/c they don't provide offense. Imagine Bullock on Kelly? He has a chance but I'll take Kelly in that rematch.

Furniture
02-13-2013, 10:53 PM
So if they played a five guard lineup we'd play 5 too? I think a more accurate statement would be that we played a 4 guard lineup because our traditional lineup was ineffective against their 4 guard lineup.

it worked and we won so i'll take it.

Didn't Mason have to go out because of foul trouble too?

CDu
02-13-2013, 10:53 PM
Cmon man. I can enjoy the win and at the same time post on the board that it was worrying and that the other team basically handed us the victory. UNC is bad this year (sorry Wheat).

As long as you can enjoy the win, that's all that matters. And I agree that UNC is pretty bad.

timmy c
02-13-2013, 10:59 PM
Duke 73 -- UNC 68 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=206391966)

Some of the team stats are very similar; same number of made field goals, rebounds very close; Duke with only one more made 3 than UNC.

Biggest discrepancy is FT%; Duke 17-20 and UNC 13-23

Bench scoring jumped out at me. 11-3, duke. Thornton's 9 points were huge.

wilko
02-13-2013, 10:59 PM
Anyone who bitches about any aspect of a win in this rivalry is insane. Any win is good. Hell, great.

What he said!!
It seemed like Duke was too keyed up at the start. They were trying to force a single play to be up 20pts.
I was hoping we'd win by 30, but I hope that every game.. I'll be happy with falling forward and getting the W

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 11:01 PM
Except that when one of those 2-3 isn't a PG, and none of the 2-3 can handle the ball, it's very hard to be a talented team. None of Hairston, McAdoo, and Bullock can handle the ball.

I guess this is where we disagree. Bullock and Hairston can handle the ball. It isn't like Paige turned the ball over or couldn't get the offense set. They had JMM, Brice Johnson, Paige and Dexter taking terrible shots. It wasn't like whoever was guarding Paige was dogging him all night. They just didn't put the ball in their play makers hands and I'm not sure why.

And it isn't like UNC played lights out. McDonald is a 40% 3 point shooter who went 0-3. Hairston is at 39% and went 1-7. Bullock went 4-7 but they missed several wide open 3's to extend the lead as well.

Duke is more talented but the gap really isn't that big. To their 2.5 players, we probably have 4 without Kelly.

Lunchab1es
02-13-2013, 11:01 PM
An often frustrating game to watch, but I'll happily take a frustrating win over UNC over any kind of loss!

Also re: the Dockery shot... I can say with authority that I rushed the court and have zero regrets about it :D. FWIW, I think it was a bit of a gradual event... A small group started, then eventually the other students filed onto the court, but waaaaay more slowly than, for example, NC State students collectively lining up so that they can ALL rush on instantly as a mob. It was (another) great night though:cool:

WakeDevil
02-13-2013, 11:02 PM
I would like to thank the officials for the two horrible calls that went in Plumlee's favor. The second one will especially be noted by supervisor of officials.

Troublemaker
02-13-2013, 11:02 PM
Like many others on this board, I have been a frequent critic of Roy Williams' coaching ability. But tonight, I have to hand it to the ol' hound dog. He outcoached K, and if he wasn't saddled with significantly inferior talent and playing on the road, he would have beaten us. His gameplan was pretty simple:

On offense:
1) Play small and challenge us to contain dribble penetration (clearly not our strength)
2) Crash the offensive glass and take advantage of our lack of defensive rebounding (boy, did they ever)

On defense:
3) Flop like crazy against Mason and hope you ocassionally get the call (they did)
4) Run us off the 3 point line and force us to take tough twos (which pretty much worked, except they forgot about Tyler)

So as much as I hate to say this... a tip of the cap to you, Ol' Roy. Well played, sir. If you had the horses (or if your horses could have made free throws), you would have won.

I agree with your analysis except for your topic statement that Roy outcoached Coach K. The game was essentially a two-move chess match. Roy went smallball to get a lead, and then Coach K went smallerball to take back control and win the game. 1 (long overdue) move by Roy, then 1 response by Coach K. That's not outcoaching.

Duke will win comfortably in Chapel Hill, btw. Roy's (long overdue) smallball move was wasted in this game.

vick
02-13-2013, 11:03 PM
Cmon man. I can enjoy the win and at the same time post on the board that it was worrying and that the other team basically handed us the victory. UNC is bad this year (sorry Wheat).

I don't know that I'd describe their free throw shooting as having "handed us the victory." They didn't shoot great, but that's largely because they just aren't a good free throw shooting team in general. We won by 5 (really 7 if you discount the last-second dunk), and they "lost" fewer than three points at the line vs. their season average:


Player FT FTA Season Expected
PJ Hairston 6 8 0.786 6.3
Reggie Bullock 1 4 0.881 3.5
Dexter Strickland 4 4 0.603 2.4
James Michael McAdoo 1 5 0.587 2.9
J.P. Tokoto 1 2 0.375 0.8
Total 13 23 15.9


I guess I think of it as whether you outperform or underperform who you "really" are, and they weren't all that far off their averages.

roywhite
02-13-2013, 11:07 PM
McAdoo didn't even crack double digits in points. Ended up with 9 points and 8 rebounds, and was not much of a factor in the 2nd half. Shot 1-5 from the line.

He's got some tools and looks like a star; he just doesn't produce like a star.

Inonehand
02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
We started off poorly...like we expected to trounce UNC but when it didn't happen early we pressed. Turnovers and bad decisions led to one of our worst halves of the season. UNC played harder than they have all season. Roy said the same during the postgame. What we shouldn't overlook is the fact that UNC scored 10 points less than their average, shot 8% lower than their average, and 10% less from 3 point land. All in all, I believe the defense was good. 2 fouls in the first half is serious foul trouble for any of our starters and I believe we had 3 of them in that situation. That is a recipe for getting beaten off the bounce. Yet, we managed to defend well enough to limit their good looks and turned around the rebounding disadvantage so that we actually won that battle in the end.

I griped and moaned most of the game. Right now I am pretty happy.

tele
02-13-2013, 11:10 PM
So, UNC's starters played 34, 36, 34, 34, and 30 minutes, with a backup getting 20. The rest of the team totaled 12 minutes. In my opinion, that's by far the biggest difference between the way UNC played tonight and the way they've played over the course of the season. When they play their best players, they've got some talent, though obviously our sloppy play early contributed to it.

I think you put your finger on the difference in the game, Ol' Roy did play his best players together more which helped them early in the game but hurt them later in the game, when they appeared to tire and fade. Duke's players on the other hand are used to playing long minutes.

So that, and Tyler Thornton are to me the reason Duke won the game. Besides hitting some big shots from three, when Duke was still behind and only had made one or two threes, he finally spaced the floor and allowed Duke to get into some better offensive sets and possessions. Cook and Curry had been struggling running the offense up until that point.

Mason hung in for a half of getting pulled away from the basket on defense and pushed out farther on offense than usual. He did finally get the ball on the blocks a couple of times in the second half.

Rasheed was really good the whole game, I almost forget he's a freshman. He's the best penetratior on the team. He also let the team in assists with 5, and made some nice interior passes, he's going to be really good.

Cook only had 2 assists, Duke is going to need more assists from the point than that in the post season play. The points are nice of course, but teams with point guards leading in shot attempts don't usually win championships. Even if opposing teams are giving you the shots and making it hard to get the ball to your scorers in a position to score. I think Thornton really helps with that too.

Great win, sorry they couldn't move up on Miami, I thought FSU had a good shot at a win.

ncexnyc
02-13-2013, 11:11 PM
McAdoo didn't even crack double digits in points. Ended up with 9 points and 8 rebounds, and was not much of a factor in the 2nd half. Shot 1-5 from the line.

He's got some tools and looks like a star; he just doesn't produce like a star.

Where are these stats on JMM coming from? It sure seemed like he was blowing by Mason left and right at will.;)

Inonehand
02-13-2013, 11:13 PM
I would like to thank the officials for the two horrible calls that went in Plumlee's favor. The second one will especially be noted by supervisor of officials.

Not sure which calls you are referring to.

Duvall
02-13-2013, 11:13 PM
Where are these stats on JMM coming from? It sure seemed like he was blowing by Mason left and right at will.;)

The box score?

McAdoo had three really impressive plays - unfortunately for UNC he only hit four shots all night.

ncexnyc
02-13-2013, 11:15 PM
The box score?

McAdoo had three really impressive plays - unfortunately for UNC he only hit four shots all night.
Yes I know. I'm just reflecting back on what I was watching and he seemed a lot more dominate than his final numbers show.

gwlaw99
02-13-2013, 11:15 PM
McAdoo didn't even crack double digits in points. Ended up with 9 points and 8 rebounds, and was not much of a factor in the 2nd half. Shot 1-5 from the line.

He's got some tools and looks like a star; he just doesn't produce like a star.

He is athletic but has no jump shot at all and doesnt play with his back to the basket. What does he do in the NBA?

CDu
02-13-2013, 11:17 PM
I guess this is where we disagree. Bullock and Hairston can handle the ball.

They can dribble the ball, yes. But they struggle to create their own shot, and they don't make their teammates better. That's what I meant by ballhandlers. Perhaps playmakers is a better word. Hairston and Bullock are good shooters and athletes. But they aren't playmakers.

Hairston is closer to a playmaker, but he's not consistent enough. And he's a black hole with the ball, so he's only a playmaker for himself. Bullock is unselfish, but he doesn't have the versatile game (pretty much just a shooter). It's very hard to shoot/iso your way to victory on any sort of consistent basis, but that's what UNC is stuck trying to do (and they don't really have the weapons to pull it off anyway).


It isn't like Paige turned the ball over or couldn't get the offense set. They had JMM, Brice Johnson, Paige and Dexter taking terrible shots. It wasn't like whoever was guarding Paige was dogging him all night. They just didn't put the ball in their play makers hands and I'm not sure why.

That's the thing, though. A good PG runs the offense. He gets the ball to the right guys. He doesn't put the team in a position where bad players are taking the shots. Paige doesn't do that for them. He is a decent caretaker, but not a facilitator of the offense. That's what I mean when I say that you need a good PG if your two best players are shooters rather than playmak


To their 2.5 players, we probably have 4 without Kelly.

Right. But our 4 include a true PG, multiple playmakers, and a consistent post scorer. That makes the gap larger than a 1.5 player edge would suggest, because UNC doesn't have that PG or post scorer.

ncexnyc
02-13-2013, 11:17 PM
He is athletic but has no jump shot at all and doesnt play with his back to the basket. What does he do in the NBA?
Well if he had left after last season, he'd be collecting a nice paycheck.:D

burnspbesq
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
Curry actually just sits in a corner taking the possession off

I suppose that in your eagerness to find fault, it never occurred to you that that set might be designed for Curry to be a decoy, dragging a potential help defender out of the area that the play was designed to attack.

hindugrass
02-13-2013, 11:20 PM
don't have time to read the whole thread, so i apologize if this is repetitive, but despite an ugly game, i am quite satisfied. more satisfied than if we had led start-to-finish and had won by 20. we gutted a win out of a game that most of our "stars" didn't manage to show up to until after halftime. i'm sure there's been much harping about defensive communication and offensive flow and general discombobulation for most of the game, but the end story is that the boys dug deep and held serve. i'm proud. ugly as it was, it's a game to build on.

UrinalCake
02-13-2013, 11:22 PM
The first half was so uncharacteristic for us - turnovers, poor ball movement, almost no assists, we never really got into a rhythm. Thankfully we kept it close until we loosened up enough to hit some shots.

I don't understand why UNC didn't go after Mason on every single possession. He was in foul trouble practically the entire game. It was almost comical how hard he was trying not to foul. On McAdoo's first drive after Mason picked up his second, Mason jumped backwards to get out of his way and McAdoo almost airballed the layup he was so surprised. After that it was like he just had an open invitation to drive to the basket and lay the ball in whenever he wanted. Yet for some reason, Lord only knows why, they stopped doing it.

KandG
02-13-2013, 11:23 PM
Cook only had 2 assists, Duke is going to need more assists from the point than that in the post season play. The points are nice of course, but teams with point guards leading in shot attempts don't usually win championships. Even if opposing teams are giving you the shots and making it hard to get the ball to your scorers in a position to score.

Key point: Cook had 2 assists and 5 turnovers tonight. Against BC, he had 3 assists and 4 turnovers. I wondered why I got so frustrated with Quinn sometimes even when he's producing on offense, and I realized it's how the offense just grinds to a halt and all Quinn is doing is dribbling around, not hitting Mason quickly enough when he establishes post position, nor finding Seth coming off screens, and just forcing things against packed defenses. To be fair, defenses are playing him to shoot and taking away options, but it's still telling that Sheed has been more effective finding Mason and Amile rolling to the basket lately.

I guess this is where Ryan really does make a difference, in terms of providing better spacing, as well as occasionally relieving Quinn of playmaking responsibilities with his ability to pass as well.

jdj4duke
02-13-2013, 11:23 PM
Anyone who bitches about any aspect of a win in this rivalry is insane. Any win is good. Hell, great.

Thank you. Don't care about court rushing, whether Duke looked good, bad or indifferent. They had more points than the other guys. And I hate those other guys, so I ain't bitchin'. I am cheering.

-bdbd
02-13-2013, 11:23 PM
Really solid, workmanlike win. Looked over-hyped in the first half -- way too many bad decisions and turn-overs. UNC seemed to lose steam about 12 minutes in, but we couldn't score and take advantage. Really two good defensive efforts by both teams tonight (but also some poor shootin).

Great effort and adjustments coming out into the second half. The foul siuation really had me nervous throughout the second half. Give the Duke kids credit (and also their coaches), as they know how to play with foul trouble.

I thought Williams' coaching was good, especially going small, which we didn't seem entirely ready for it. But I thought he missed an opportunity not taking it at our foul-burdened players in the second half.

Terrific games by Thornton (boy, if I were a Kerlina fan I'd just despise that "pest") an Rasheed, and Cook. Mason didn't have a great night, and that 4th foul was just plain dumb, but he played solid when it counted.

Any time UNC@ch goes down, it is a good night!!!


:D :D :D :D

OldSchool
02-13-2013, 11:28 PM
The team started the game tight. Then they realized they were tight, and tried to force themselves to loosen up but ended up trying silly passes that turned into turnovers. The same thing happened to some extent at BC. They are good enough this year to beat a team like UNC if they play hard and solid and play within themselves. It doesnít have to be an artistic masterpiece. Which is what they did for the most part in the second half.

On the other hand we have, for example, the Florida State game. There, the team found the right pace and mental edge, they were fluid and aggressive while still playing within themselves, and it was a nice work of art. As much as anything else, going forward in each game this team needs to find that mental sweet spot that unlocks their potential. They are perfectly capable of beating Miami even when Miami is playing well, if they can do this.

sporthenry
02-13-2013, 11:38 PM
They can dribble the ball, yes. But they struggle to create their own shot, and they don't make their teammates better. That's what I meant by ballhandlers. Perhaps playmakers is a better word. Hairston and Bullock are good shooters and athletes. But they aren't playmakers.

Hairston is closer to a playmaker, but he's not consistent enough. And he's a black hole with the ball, so he's only a playmaker for himself. Bullock is unselfish, but he doesn't have the versatile game (pretty much just a shooter). It's very hard to shoot/iso your way to victory on any sort of consistent basis, but that's what UNC is stuck trying to do (and they don't really have the weapons to pull it off anyway).

That's the thing, though. A good PG runs the offense. He gets the ball to the right guys. He doesn't put the team in a position where bad players are taking the shots. Paige doesn't do that for them. He is a decent caretaker, but not a facilitator of the offense. That's what I mean when I say that you need a good PG if your two best players are shooters rather than playmak

Right. But our 4 include a true PG, multiple playmakers, and a consistent post scorer. That makes the gap larger than a 1.5 player edge would suggest, because UNC doesn't have that PG or post scorer.

Fair enough. And I haven't watched as much ACC play as I normally do, but these teams like BC and UNC don't seem as bad as people on here make them out to be (and Duke isn't the same team they were in December). When Duke isn't hitting on all cylinders with this roster, they are going to have to grind out games which they did against Wake, BC, UNC, etc. It isn't a problem and is a testament to Duke/K but people seem to dismiss that the talent gap isn't that big.

As far as UNC, I agree they don't have a play maker and they rely on ISO. I just didn't think we had anyone to really defend either so if they wanted to go ISO, they usually did pretty well. So I thought the times when Paige and UNC tried to run an offense they should have just kicked it out and let Bullock or Hairston ISO since they had the height advantage against Duke.

But my main points are that the ACC isn't as bad as some make it out. They did tie the Big Ten and most teams have a few good players that can keep any team in the game. On top of that, this Duke team still hasn't figured it out without Kelly. Everyone seems to think that what we did against FSU, Maryland and NC State in the first half is the baseline that we should play at when in reality, that is probably our ceiling without Kelly.

Now the game against BC and the first half against UNC were bad but I'd say Duke is about a 8-10 point favorite against UNC which is a 5-6 point spread at UNC which is good but certainly indicates the teams aren't that far apart.

Billy Dat
02-13-2013, 11:49 PM
So that, and Tyler Thornton are to me the reason Duke won the game. Besides hitting some big shots from three, when Duke was still behind and only had made one or two threes, he finally spaced the floor and allowed Duke to get into some better offensive sets and possessions. Cook and Curry had been struggling running the offense up until that point.

I just listened to K's presser and he focused on Tyler more then anyone else. He said that Tyler has the capacity to "get angry" and that he appreciates that trait because he, K, also has that trait and he thinks it has served him well over the years - he said it probably came from the military. He said anger is good if it can help eliminate bad behavior, and it's bad if it has the opposite effect. He said that Tyler will be a coach someday and that he studies the game, understands every position, and can lead on both sides of the court without touching the ball. He said Tyler would not let us lose and mentioned his 3s, the full court pass to Cook, and an offensive rebound he kept alive to extend a possession. They asked if Quinn had that quality and K said a quick "No" but said Quinn is very competitive but not a guy that gets angry. K loves Thornton.

At the end of the presser, he was jokingly giving a reporter the business about mixing sports and politics and said that reporter knew that he, K, could get angry...anyone know who that was or what that was about?

Anyway, another quirky chapter in the rivalry that wasn't really over until there were 6 seconds left. Happy with the W. We have a tough last 7 ACC games that will continue to test this team - but I like that we are winning these close ones even if they aren't pretty.

CDu
02-14-2013, 12:00 AM
But my main points are that the ACC isn't as bad as some make it out. They did tie the Big Ten and most teams have a few good players that can keep any team in the game. On top of that, this Duke team still hasn't figured it out without Kelly. Everyone seems to think that what we did against FSU, Maryland and NC State in the first half is the baseline that we should play at when in reality, that is probably our ceiling without Kelly.

Now the game against BC and the first half against UNC were bad but I'd say Duke is about a 8-10 point favorite against UNC which is a 5-6 point spread at UNC which is good but certainly indicates the teams aren't that far apart.

I certainly don't think what we did @FSU, vs Maryland, and vs State (1st half) is our norm. The problem is that we seem to play either at/near our floor (like most of tonight, like @Miami, and like @BC) or at/near our ceiling, but rarely in between. I think part of that is that we haven't quite figured it out without Kelly.

And perhaps that's part of what you're trying to say. I think the talent gap legitimately is large, just that we don't do a good job of playing at our mean (more peaks and valleys) which lends itself to struggles at times and blowouts at others.

sporthenry
02-14-2013, 12:09 AM
I certainly don't think what we did @FSU, vs Maryland, and vs State (1st half) is our norm. The problem is that we seem to play either at/near our floor (like most of tonight, like @Miami, and like @BC) or at/near our ceiling, but rarely in between. I think part of that is that we haven't quite figured it out without Kelly.

And perhaps that's part of what you're trying to say. I think the talent gap legitimately is large, just that we don't do a good job of playing at our mean (more peaks and valleys) which lends itself to struggles at times and blowouts at others.

I agree about the inconsistency of our offense.

But if we play at our middle, what do you think we win by? 10-12 points. At home that is a good win but people on here were expecting 82-50 or worse. Perhaps I just read the wrong posts or misread people's optimism but we aren't going to be blowing out these teams. UNC is an NCAAT team. Probably a 10-11 seed which is about what Duke will face in round 2 and we aren't going to be winning by 20+ points against most of those opponents.

tecumseh
02-14-2013, 12:13 AM
I had not seen Carolina play this year I was shocked by how awful they are. I agree with a previous poster they often looked like a group of guys meeting up for lunchtime hoops at the Y except they have superior talent. There were about 10 really awful shots put up by Carolina (and I am not counting some really awful free throws) I mean really awful total bricks or airballs. Some games a good team will not put one up a whole game and Carolina had a whole basket of them. Most pathetic showing by Carolina I have ever seen but I did not see this team play Texas this year when they had to get hot in the second half to shoot over 30%.

This is a bad Carolina team and I don't see how it can make the NCAA still a win over Carolina is worth a good nights sleep.

BigZ
02-14-2013, 01:14 AM
Who was the guy for unc shooting the airballs from three? I almost felt bad for that kid, those shots were embarrassing.

1999ballboy
02-14-2013, 01:47 AM
Really disliked Quinn's first few minutes. Really liked the way he turned it around. On the other side, I can't remember the last time I watched a UNC-Duke game and didn't think UNC's point guard was impressive...

Go Duke!
Kudos to you for recovering from that coma you were in while Larry Drew was at UNC ;)

davekay1971
02-14-2013, 05:44 AM
Some takeaways from last night:

1) We can play badly and still beat a bubble team. That was the sloppiest we've played at home this season, I think, and we ground out a win. Phew.
2) UNC falls apart when pressured. Once Duke got the lead, they started playing more individually. Only some bad offensive possessions by our team kept UNC close.
3) Roy reads DBR, and we need to stop giving him good ideas. He did just about everything some posters on here advised him to do. He played his best players, kept his rotation smaller, stopped hallucinating that his group of low post stiffs was Sean May/Tyler Hanstravel, etc. DBR posters (myself included), from this point forward, please use Roy's use of DBR for coaching advice to our advantage. Post only misinformation.
4) Therefore...UNC would have beaten us if only they'd gone bigger in the 2nd half. If Roy had played JMM at the 3, Hubert at the 4, and Simmons at the 5, Bullock at the 2, and Strickland at the 1 and stuck with that, we would have lost. Thank God he didn't think to do that!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-14-2013, 05:47 AM
Not sure which calls you are referring to.

Well, watching the game with my well-intentioned Tar Hell neighbor, I can tell you... shortly after Mason's fourth foul, there were two plays where Mason used his body to get positioning on offense and the Tar Heel ended up on the ground leaving Mason free to score. My neighbor went ballistic - mostly because UNC had been getting those calls all dadgum night. He let me know over and over from that point on, whenever Mason touched the ball that "he shouldn't even be IN the game..."

I (of course) didn't see either of them as "bad calls" but rather the refs simply not letting UNC flop every time Mason got near someone. And yes to all you lurking Tar Heel fans that might be hanging around today, I did accuse them of flopping. What else can you call it?

For what it's worth, I agree with most of what has been said. I was excepting a lot more from Curry, being his last home game against UNC. I think that Roy's lineup change left Duke scrambling in the first half, which was disappointing. I would have liked to see Duke force our game on them, turning their "surprise lineup" into some mismatches in our favor, but if we aren't crashing the boards, if we can't pull people open for some 3's, and if we are turning it over at an alarming rate then we will be damned lucky to be that close at halftime. I found myself spending lots of time yelling at the TV for Duke to put a body on someone when the ball goes in the air - when the other team is running a smaller lineup, seems we should be pounding the glass and getting the boards. That wasn't the case for much of the game.

McAdoo was really impressive to me. He didn't back down from Mason one iota. I predict he might see a different side of Plumlee when they get together in Chapel Hill in a few weeks.

It was a very strange game to watch. For the first 25 minutes or so, Duke couldn't really bounce back from that initial UNC push. Felt like we were constantly down 4-8 points and couldn't get over the hump. Then, a few quick points off of turnovers and some threes, and the shoe is on the other foot. From that point on, Duke was up 4-6 points and UNC couldn't claw back into it.

And, for what it's worth, put me in the "UNC blew this on the free throw line" camp. I don't care what the "difference between performance at the free throw line and expectation chart" says (although it was very interesting to look at), there's a big difference between shooting 13-23 (reality), shooting 16-23 (expectation), and missing five out of six free throws during a crucial stretch of the game before hitting five out of six once the game is basically out of reach. They really shot themselves in the foot, and I don't mind a bit. Gave me something to say whenever my neighbor kept saying "He shouldn't even BE IN the game..." :)

Regardless, it's always a pleasure to beat Carolina. Now we have to get back to practice to eliminate the dumb turnovers before we take a dangerous and blessedly final trip to College Park this weekend.

GO DUKE!

CDu
02-14-2013, 07:00 AM
I agree about the inconsistency of our offense.

But if we play at our middle, what do you think we win by? 10-12 points. At home that is a good win but people on here were expecting 82-50 or worse. Perhaps I just read the wrong posts or misread people's optimism but we aren't going to be blowing out these teams. UNC is an NCAAT team. Probably a 10-11 seed which is about what Duke will face in round 2 and we aren't going to be winning by 20+ points against most of those opponents.

I think we'd be a 13-14 point favorite at home, 5-6 point fave in Chapel Hill if we played at our mean. Unfortunately, it has tended to be peaks and valleys, often driven by the orchestration (or lack thereof) by Cook. Which I think further emphasizes the importance of the PG.

jcastranio
02-14-2013, 07:14 AM
Another good game. Yeah, I said it. Every game is a new experience and an opportunity to grow as a team. Playing as a heavy favorite in THE rivalry game in Cameron puts a new level of stress on the players. There is no experience to draw on - none of the current players had significant roles in leadership under circumstances like this.

The UNC lineup and strategy helped them to a lead. We helped them with a few incomprehensible turnovers. Through it all, though, we kept our cool and our poise and played through it. That is probably the best learning point for the team from the game.

Mason played well. He does have a few awkward looking plays on offense. However, he always does. Back to the basket, he can be an awkward-looking guy. What did I like best? End of the game, gets the rebound, holds the ball high - waiting to get fouled for the 1 and 1. Waiting to get fouled! Then hitting the free throws.

Rasheed was energized and great throughout. I would pick him as the Man of the Match. Quinn had some ups and downs - mostly ups. Tyler was clutch.

Seth ... they had a good game plan against him. He brought some savvy to the table at times, but it was a tough game for him. Generally solid play by Josh, Amile, and even Alex.

The advantage we have is our "team" identity and our coach. Unlike 2001 or 1998, we don't have a whole team of first round NBA draft picks. Unlike 2002 or 2006 or 2011, we don't have one of the top two or three NBA picks. We have a team that could beat anyone and stands to contend for the national championship. We don't have a team that will beat every team we play by 30 points. That's okay.

Loved the game. On to the final conference game at Maryland.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-14-2013, 07:42 AM
Wheat is congenitally incapable of giving a Duke post man credit. It is what it is. Elton Brand could dunk on his face and he would say we were weak in the post.

I tend to call it like I see it.

Coaches tend to get second guessed, it's part of the job.

Mason showed a couple of strong jump hooks last night, a real post game. Something we've seen way too little of from a post player with his ability. If I was his coach, we would have seen a whole lot more of those the past four years. The board wants to tell Roy which line up he should so obviously see is best, don't I get to tell coach K he should learn how to use a big man better?

Mason is still a "clunky" player down low. His footwork has improved over the years, from bad to ok. He rarely looks comfortable after catching an entry pass to me. His biggest advantage last night was he was a man among boys, physically.

He's great in transition, has good hands, good rebounding instincts, is strong, quick and very athletic for his size. He's a team player, and he'll do the work on the floor for the team. He is a good player and that's an easy statement to make.

But one thing he is ... is that he is not a great post player. And he has not been coached to become a great post player.

Duke is winning, Mason seems happy, so what I think means nothing. Just another fans opinion, take it or leave it.

Saratoga2
02-14-2013, 07:56 AM
Another good game. Yeah, I said it. Every game is a new experience and an opportunity to grow as a team. Playing as a heavy favorite in THE rivalry game in Cameron puts a new level of stress on the players. There is no experience to draw on - none of the current players had significant roles in leadership under circumstances like this.

The UNC lineup and strategy helped them to a lead. We helped them with a few incomprehensible turnovers. Through it all, though, we kept our cool and our poise and played through it. That is probably the best learning point for the team from the game.

Mason played well. He does have a few awkward looking plays on offense. However, he always does. Back to the basket, he can be an awkward-looking guy. What did I like best? End of the game, gets the rebound, holds the ball high - waiting to get fouled for the 1 and 1. Waiting to get fouled! Then hitting the free throws.

Rasheed was energized and great throughout. I would pick him as the Man of the Match. Quinn had some ups and downs - mostly ups. Tyler was clutch.

Seth ... they had a good game plan against him. He brought some savvy to the table at times, but it was a tough game for him. Generally solid play by Josh, Amile, and even Alex.

The advantage we have is our "team" identity and our coach. Unlike 2001 or 1998, we don't have a whole team of first round NBA draft picks. Unlike 2002 or 2006 or 2011, we don't have one of the top two or three NBA picks. We have a team that could beat anyone and stands to contend for the national championship. We don't have a team that will beat every team we play by 30 points. That's okay.

Loved the game. On to the final conference game at Maryland.

Personally, I think the strategy of forcing the ball into Mason cost us many of the turnovers. The guards must have been told to go to him at all costs, and cost us it did with sloppy play. Mason seemed to be leaning into his man and didn't have much balance, falling backwards once when his man moved away and losing a pass to him when a man was able to get around him. Mason picked up offensive fouls and was non-existent defensively in the first half and a good part of the second half. He certainly could have been called for another offensive foul late, but we got lucky. I would rather have Mason pick up his fouls playing intense defense than by dumb offensive fouls. Mason can be a factor but just wasn't until later in the game. I wonder if the overplay on Mason could be used to our advantage, such as using a cutting Amile or having him emulate Kelly by shooting from the top of the key. Amile seems so wary of doing those things that he was passing up wide open opportunities.

As far as Seth is concerned, he can be made less effective by a bigger guard playing him close. He still is very cagey and will get his points but he can't deliver the 20 point average when guarded closely.

wilko
02-14-2013, 08:14 AM
My takeway from this game is that bad performance from Duke is superior to a good performance from UNC.
I can live with that result.


Mason is still a "clunky" player down low. His footwork has improved over the years, from bad to ok. He rarely looks comfortable after catching an entry pass to me. His biggest advantage last night was he was a man among boys, physically.

To me, recognizing and advantage and then capitalizing on it is the definition of Coaching. So is improving footwork.


He's great in transition, has good hands, good rebounding instincts, is strong, quick and very athletic for his size. He's a team player, and he'll do the work on the floor for the team. He is a good player and that's an easy statement to make.

I'd go even further to say that Masons quickness is tethered to anticipation. When he has to react and be instinctual hes not nearly as quick and fluid. Or maybe it seems that way because he lets lot of people go by him in order to not draw fouls and stay on the court.

Of Masons many improvements (footwork, rebounding, foul-shooting) he has eliminated MOST of the silly fouls and can be on the floor to close a game and not be a liability. This cant be overstated.


But one thing he is ... is that he is not a great post player. And he has not been coached to become a great post player.

I think your expectations of a great post player are high.
Masons development over 4 yrs IS a product of Coaching (at least in part with his desire and talent).
That we have a Duke Post player in the running NPOY speaks volumes to both Mase an the staff.

CDu
02-14-2013, 08:19 AM
Encouraging game for UNC dispite the loss.

I thought Roy had an excellent game plan and if the players had done a better job of execution in the 2nd half they could have won that game.

Unfortunately some pitiful 2nd half foul shooting, poor decisions with the ball leading to bad shots or TO's...and untimely fouls late cost them the game.

In a nutshell, UNC didn't make the basketball plays you have to make to win tight games, and Duke did.

I was impressed with Paige, even tho he didn't shoot well. He was a solid leader for his first game in Cameron.

Hopefully this game puts a chip on UNC's shoulder because they can now clearly see how much better they could play after that first half. They have to finish plays, and games better.

For Duke, I thought Cook played well.
Mason was lucky he didn't foul out mid way through the second half.
Curry was the difference for Duke. He's a player with a killers instinct and he'll pull the trigger. Even tho he didn't have his best game, he was clutch when he was needed and his big 3 gave the team energy which rattled UNC for a few minutes there and allowed Duke to extend the lead just enough hang on.

Congrats on a tough win.

Thanks for the congrats, but I'm going to have to disagree with most of your assessment.

Paige ran the offense very poorly. UNC had two players who were consistently able to score (Hairston and Bullock). A good PG would have run the offense through those two. Yet for some reason, Paige, Strickland, and McAdoo were the ones taking shots in the critical run of the game. All Paige did was take care of the ball. But he didn't facilitate, and that cost UNC.

I certainly don't think Curry was the difference. In fact, he played pretty poorly throughout. Yes, he hit two 3s. But he was otherwise a liability on both ends of the floor. And down the stretch, when we needed him to make a senior play, he made a very bad mistake (lazily bringing the ball up court as the shot clock wound down, then getting out of control and turning it over).

Mason was lucky he didn't foul out, but it was much later in the game than you realize. UNC (notably McAdoo and Hairston) did a nice job of flopping to draw 2-3 offensive fouls on Mason. But as the second half wore on, the officials stopped calling those flops. And without that crutch, UNC no longer had an answer for Mason inside. It was not Mason's best game (far from it, actually). In spite of that, he was still the best player on the floor in crunch time.

The key in this game was (1) UNC's lack of composure/focus on offense and failure to get the ball to their best players and (2) the terrific effort of Thornton and Sulaimon.

CDu
02-14-2013, 08:23 AM
My takeway from this game is that bad performance from Duke is superior to a good performance from UNC.
I can live with that result.



To me, recognizing and advantage and then capitalizing on it is the definition of Coaching. So is improving footwork.



I'd go even further to say that Masons quickness is tethered to anticipation. When he has to react and be instinctual hes not nearly as quick and fluid. Or maybe it seems that way because he lets lot of people go by him in order to not draw fouls and stay on the court.

Of Masons many improvements (footwork, rebounding, foul-shooting) he has eliminated MOST of the silly fouls and can be on the floor to close a game and not be a liability. This cant be overstated.



I think your expectations of a great post player are high.
Masons development over 4 yrs IS a product of Coaching (at least in part with his desire and talent).
That we have a Duke Post player in the running NPOY speaks volumes to both Mase an the staff.

Agree wholeheartedly. I'd also go further and say that Mason isn't the least bit quick. He's reasonably fast and he can jump high, but he's not remotely quick. That is a big part of why his post moves look so clumsy at times. He doesn't have the quick feet to make it look good.

That being said, Mason has improved dramatically over the past two years as a post scorer. He had literally no offensive skills when he came to Duke (just raw athleticism). For the first two years, that was evident. But for a good chunk of last year and all of this year, he's really found his game.

He's never going to be Olajuwon or McHale down on the blocks. But he's gotten much better than Wheat is giving credit. Of course, since Wheat has apparently only seen a couple of Duke games this year, he'd have no way of realizing that (rendering his analysis meaningless).

Duke79UNLV77
02-14-2013, 08:25 AM
I tend to call it like I see it.

Coaches tend to get second guessed, it's part of the job.

Mason showed a couple of strong jump hooks last night, a real post game. Something we've seen way too little of from a post player with his ability. If I was his coach, we would have seen a whole lot more of those the past four years. The board wants to tell Roy which line up he should so obviously see is best, don't I get to tell coach K he should learn how to use a big man better?

Mason is still a "clunky" player down low. His footwork has improved over the years, from bad to ok. He rarely looks comfortable after catching an entry pass to me. His biggest advantage last night was he was a man among boys, physically.

He's great in transition, has good hands, good rebounding instincts, is strong, quick and very athletic for his size. He's a team player, and he'll do the work on the floor for the team. He is a good player and that's an easy statement to make.

But one thing he is ... is that he is not a great post player. And he has not been coached to become a great post player.

Duke is winning, Mason seems happy, so what I think means nothing. Just another fans opinion, take it or leave it.

Last night was not one of Mason's best efforts at finishing, but he still went for 18 and 11 and is at worst a co-favorite for NPOY, scoring exclusively within about 5 feet from the basket. He's been the most effective post player in the country this year and is averaging 2 more points, 1 more rebound, and shooting at a 5% better rate from the field than Zeller did last year. He came in as a freshman with zero post moves. Wheat sees mostly what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

AtlDuke72
02-14-2013, 08:27 AM
If UNC makes FTs down the stretch it's not clear who would've won. And FTs are not something Duke affects. Hence UNC losing the game.

Has anyone ever done a study of how well visiting teams in the ACC shoot free throws at the different stadiums? I wonder if the percentages for visitors at Cameron are less than that teams percentages elsewhere. Whatever the answer, our free throw defense was excellent last night - thanks Crazies !

Neals384
02-14-2013, 08:28 AM
Ho hum. Just another routine home win against an ACC doormat. No need for our guys to bring their best stuff. :)

roywhite
02-14-2013, 08:35 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

Billy Dat
02-14-2013, 08:39 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

I have to say, when he got it going early in the second half and Mason went to the bench with his 3rd, I was shocked that they didn't go to McAdoo every time down the court. He is a real problem when he faces up and takes it to the hole. I think he's another kid that doesn't quite get how dominant he could be with a more egotistical, selfish and demanding playing style.

Did anyone else notice the few sequences when Tyler was guarding him in the lane and was literally throwing forearm haymakers into his lower back? We want you on that wall, Tyler, we need you on that wall.

CDu
02-14-2013, 08:41 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

I'm not Wheat, but I have watched a ton of UNC (and State for that matter) games this year. I've never been impressed with McAdoo's game. He's fast and can jump, but he has literally no basketball skill. For the talk about Mason's limitations in the post, McAdoo is far worse. He has no post game, and he has less than no shooting touch. His face-up game consists of making one move right to the basket. If you defend that, he throws up an off-balance shot (which frequently misses the rim entirely).

If you lose track of McAdoo, he is athletic enough to make you pay with putbacks and/or catch-and-finishes. And he can at times read the passing lanes and dart for a steal and breakaway dunk. Last night's game was a highlight film of all the good and bad of McAdoo. In the first half, Mason played flat and McAdoo got tons of hustle baskets and looked like a star. In the second half, Hairston and Mason settled down and started forcing McAdoo to play basketball. The result? A god-awful display of basketball that would make a high school coach fume.

davekay1971
02-14-2013, 08:42 AM
The board wants to tell Roy which line up he should so obviously see is best, don't I get to tell coach K he should learn how to use a big man better?

You absolutely get to tell K he should learn how to use a big man better.

However, when Roy is coaching a team full of highly recruited talent to a 16-8 record, middle-of-the-pack ACC finish, and the NCAA tournament bubble, by using a rotation that makes no sense to anyone outside of Roy, presumably his coaching staff, and some admirably faithful Tarheel fans like you...while Duke's starting center is a leading candidate for NPOY...you are going to have a tough time convincing anyone that we're wrong to question Roy and you're right in your assessment of Mason. It just may not be the hill you want to die on today.

Still, to be fair to Wheat, we could pull up a laundry list of threads from this very forum over the years and find plenty of Blue Devil fans questioning Duke's use of, and development of, bigs. But Mason's play, and Duke's offensive scheme, this year, are probably the worst possible evidence you could use to criticize Duke's development of and use of the post.

(FWIW, I'm firmly in the camp that believes that (1) Duke has done a very good job over K's tenure developing bigs; and (2) when Duke hasn't focused on feeding the post, it's because K actually coaches the offense to play to it's strengths and low post offense, at those times, wasn't one of our strengths)

Wander
02-14-2013, 08:49 AM
Wheat is congenitally incapable of giving a Duke post man credit. It is what it is. Elton Brand could dunk on his face and he would say we were weak in the post.

Haha, why even reach for a hypothetical reference? The vast majority of basketball analysts agree that we have the best center in the country this year, and Wheat's still doing it.

jipops
02-14-2013, 08:53 AM
I tend to call it like I see it.

Coaches tend to get second guessed, it's part of the job.

Mason showed a couple of strong jump hooks last night, a real post game. Something we've seen way too little of from a post player with his ability. If I was his coach, we would have seen a whole lot more of those the past four years. The board wants to tell Roy which line up he should so obviously see is best, don't I get to tell coach K he should learn how to use a big man better?

Mason is still a "clunky" player down low. His footwork has improved over the years, from bad to ok. He rarely looks comfortable after catching an entry pass to me. His biggest advantage last night was he was a man among boys, physically.

He's great in transition, has good hands, good rebounding instincts, is strong, quick and very athletic for his size. He's a team player, and he'll do the work on the floor for the team. He is a good player and that's an easy statement to make.

But one thing he is ... is that he is not a great post player. And he has not been coached to become a great post player.

Duke is winning, Mason seems happy, so what I think means nothing. Just another fans opinion, take it or leave it.


Another fan's opinion, I think you're way off here. You're going on the assumption that one's limitations can be coached away at any point. Yes Mason does have poor foot-work, but it is far better than it was coming in to college. Case in point, in his first 2+ years Mason's balance always took him away from the basket when he spun or used his pivot. Remember those low-percentage fade-aways? This has definitely been corrected. Still, despite Mason's nice ups he has little to no-quickness laterally or side-to-side. While he can get that first leg out quickly the latter is usually slow to follow. I don't know how in the world any coach in existence can actually change someone physically so they can feature better than average lateral quickness. So what do you do with a strong kid with length and hops and no-lateral quickness, get him to use the hook. We have seen an up-and-under many numerous times from Mason, albeit a slow moving one.

In contrast, James Michael has none of these limitations and continues to show little to no post moves. So maybe it isn't ALL about coaching. Though it is funny when it comes to big guys that come into college with already developed moves or low-post offense, the staff somehow receives credit for building that. I think Mason is a great case of someone who came in with no post game and was primarily a face up guy with no jump shot nor touch around the basket. I think the staff has done a great job of taking advantage of his athleticism and advanced passing skills and molding him into a pretty good defender who can be relied upon to score in the paint. I don't see any unrealized potential here.

77devil
02-14-2013, 09:05 AM
Wheat is congenitally incapable of giving a Duke post man credit. It is what it is. Elton Brand could dunk on his face and he would say we were weak in the post.

Ha, this is so true. Wheat's got to bitch about something. I'd give you sporks but I have to spread more around first.

Durham Thunder
02-14-2013, 09:10 AM
Last night I thought the most valuable players were Amile Jefferson and Tyler Thornton.

Hear me out: these Duke-Carolina games hinge on MOMENTS. Sparks and game changers. Thornton was the staple between our big runs; hitting CLUTCH 3's when we need hope the most. For Jefferson: UNC was killing us on the boards from the onset. But when there were some key moments, Amile Jefferson ripped down some rebounds when we needed it most in that awful first half. A major reason we stayed in that first half was due to Jefferson's timely rebounds.

Our best moments followed our worst last night. And during our low points, it was Amile Jefferson and Tyler Thornton who were beacons of hope.

mkirsh
02-14-2013, 09:20 AM
I actually liked what I saw from UNC last night:

- played their best players 30+ minutes
- went "position-less" and spaced the floor
- used the 3 as a weapon and tried to take it away from their opponents
- turned offensive rebounds into 3's
- switched screens on D and used pressure on the wings to take post entry passes away
- rotated on D and took charges (although they took this one too far, McAdoo's flops were horrendous)

I think that the mascot head theft was really a diversion, and the real crime this week was the Heels stealing our playbook. Must drive their fans nuts that their best chance to win is to play like Duke.

ChicagoHeel
02-14-2013, 09:21 AM
Congrats on the win. It wasn't pretty, but in the end it doesn't matter. A win in the rivalry game is something to be savored, period.

I'll throw in my two cents worth, although everything I predicted in the pre-game threat turned out to be wrong so I'm not sure my thoughts are worth even two cents.

For me the key to the games were:

1. The discrepancy in foul shooting. You hit them when it mattered, we missed six in a row. McAdoo should spend the summer at the line. Props to Plumlee for stepping up and making them during crunch time. His foul shooting was a microcosm of your team's overall performance- ugly but effective enough to get the job done.

2. Our wasted opportunities. You guys played a very poor first half- sloppy turnovers and very suspect defense. You opened a window of opportunity but we were not able to take advantage and build a big lead. In the first half we had some shockingly wide open threes, especially considering taking away the three had to be one of your defensive priorities. We just missed them. Hairston goes 1-7 and McDonald 0-3. Those guys shoot their season average and who knows how it might have turned out. In the second half, you played D with much more intensity and our offense, as has been the case all year, floundered.

3. Your role players outperformed ours. I expected Curry and Plumlee to beat us. Curry hit some big shots, but overall wasn't that efficient. And although Plumlee had decent numbers in the end, I thought he played a mediocre game given that he enjoyed a complete mismatch inside and was playing his final game against us at home. The foul trouble probably threw off his rhythm and aggressiveness. If you told me before the game that those two would combine for 29 points on 23 shots, I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, Thornton and Cook stepped up, scored well above their season averages, and really hurt us. On our side, we had scoring from the usual suspects, with Dex compensating for McAdoo, but no one a little further down the bench contributed. Paige missed some open shots early and took some really terrible ones late; McDonald shot a poor percentage. Brice Johnson, who can be a very efficiency scorer, was a non-factor and looked a little wild during his brief appearances.

Overall, both teams deserve credit for playing with intensity. I hope that UNC can show that same level of effort and focus going forward because I think we still have the potential to be a pretty solid team.

And though there is never any point indulging in "what ifs", I can't help but wonder/ fantasize about how things might have been this year had Marshall's draft stock been a little worse and Plums a little better. Grrr.

Chicago 1995
02-14-2013, 09:25 AM
i tend to call it like i see it.

Coaches tend to get second guessed, it's part of the job.

Mason showed a couple of strong jump hooks last night, a real post game. Something we've seen way too little of from a post player with his ability. If i was his coach, we would have seen a whole lot more of those the past four years. The board wants to tell roy which line up he should so obviously see is best, don't i get to tell coach k he should learn how to use a big man better?

Mason is still a "clunky" player down low. His footwork has improved over the years, from bad to ok. He rarely looks comfortable after catching an entry pass to me. His biggest advantage last night was he was a man among boys, physically.

He's great in transition, has good hands, good rebounding instincts, is strong, quick and very athletic for his size. He's a team player, and he'll do the work on the floor for the team. He is a good player and that's an easy statement to make.

But one thing he is ... Is that he is not a great post player. And he has not been coached to become a great post player.

Duke is winning, mason seems happy, so what i think means nothing. Just another fans opinion, take it or leave it.

DNFTT. Do not.

oldnavy
02-14-2013, 09:30 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

JMM scored his 9th and final point at the 17:34 mark of the second half... nuff said.

CDu
02-14-2013, 09:35 AM
JMM scored his 9th and final point at the 17:34 mark of the second half... nuff said.

And he barely touched the rim with any shots thereafter.

Chicago 1995
02-14-2013, 09:36 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

He's a kid who clearly should have went pro last year before scouts could really see his game. He doesn't seem to have a back to the basket game, and while he's pretty explosive, he doesn't know what to do with it. And he's pretty terrible on D. Doesn't see like Roy's fine coaching is making him any better, either.

HaveFunExpectToWin
02-14-2013, 09:42 AM
P.S. Glad Roy saved a timeout to pull that halfcourt pass play with 5 seconds left. I wish that Mason would have gone up strong to block PJ Hairston's dunk in the final seconds. I've got no problem with Hairston trying to dunk there, but I also having no problem with Mason trying to swat that and not really care if he fouls him and knocks him hard to the ground either ;)

GTHC!!!!!!!!

I read the following on twitter after the game, and think it's perfect...


@DannyFordIsGod The worthless, showtime dunk at the end is the most UNC thing ever.

Also, did anyone else notice the punkish play by Hairston in the first half when he tossed the ball at Sheed after Sheed got knocked onto the floor into the basket support? Sulaimon got pissed and threw the ball right back at him. Love it!

ChillinDuke
02-14-2013, 09:42 AM
You absolutely get to tell K he should learn how to use a big man better.

However, when Roy is coaching a team full of highly recruited talent to a 16-8 record, middle-of-the-pack ACC finish, and the NCAA tournament bubble, by using a rotation that makes no sense to anyone outside of Roy, presumably his coaching staff, and some admirably faithful Tarheel fans like you...while Duke's starting center is a leading candidate for NPOY...you are going to have a tough time convincing anyone that we're wrong to question Roy and you're right in your assessment of Mason. It just may not be the hill you want to die on today.

Still, to be fair to Wheat, we could pull up a laundry list of threads from this very forum over the years and find plenty of Blue Devil fans questioning Duke's use of, and development of, bigs. But Mason's play, and Duke's offensive scheme, this year, are probably the worst possible evidence you could use to criticize Duke's development of and use of the post.

(FWIW, I'm firmly in the camp that believes that (1) Duke has done a very good job over K's tenure developing bigs; and (2) when Duke hasn't focused on feeding the post, it's because K actually coaches the offense to play to it's strengths and low post offense, at those times, wasn't one of our strengths)

Absolutely agreed, DK.

Wheat, your assessment of Mason just does not have corroborating evidence. He's one of the leading NPOY candidates, averaging 18 and 11. How is that not a great big man - by college standards? Seriously. Bias and everything aside, it is hard (nearly impossible) for a reasonable person to look at Mason Plumlee's body of work in this current year and determine he is not a great college big man. Key word - reasonable.

Re: the game, I thought we performed admirably in the second half. I just think the expectations of many are too high - sometimes myself included. We responded to a poor first half with a sound second half and beat a well-performing arch rival debuting a new lineup and rotation, who, despite my desire and bias-driven attempts to withhold from them their due, is currently ranked #44 by KenPom and #36 by the RPI.

From a high level, similar to my above retort re: Mason, and with an honest attempt to be unbiased in my assessment, this game was a nice win.

- Chillin

brumby041
02-14-2013, 09:43 AM
On defense:
3) Flop like crazy against Mason and hope you ocassionally get the call (they did)


I knew this was tactic was coming as soon as I saw that our game was to be graced with God's gift to the officiating profession, Karl Hess.

ChicagoHeel
02-14-2013, 09:46 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

Your assessment of McAdoo is similar to mine. He has the necessary athleticism but rarely produces against good competition. He could be a very good player, but will need more time. I doubt he will stay, but were he to stick around another year, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make a Plumlee-type jump. The physical tools are there, but his shot selection is still freshman-like. About 25 percent of his shots are "what the hell was he thinking" variety. I keep waiting for the game to slow down for him, but I'm losing hope it will happen this year.

IN his defense, he is the only scoring threat inside so defenses can really focus everything on him. And, until last night, we have not done enough to spread the floor to give him room. Since he has no back-to-the basket game, he needs some space to slash his way to the rim. He was effective in the first half because he had room to work. Our spacing deteriorated and your defense tightened in the second half and his productivity dropped considerably. He's also hurt by our weak PG play, which limits our ability to get out in transition where McAdoo can be very effective. So part of his struggles this year are due to the fact that the composition of this particular team makes it hard for him to play to his strengths.

He needs to spend some time (1) working on his shooting and (2) developing a "go to" move and (3) practicing the pump-fake. He goes straight up with everything which leads to some wild, off-balance shots and more blocks than one would expect given his size and athleticism.

77devil
02-14-2013, 09:48 AM
Much better defense in the second half.

Q: How does Mason look awful most of the game and then take over and reach his season averages?
A: He really was the best player on the court, even though he didn't play like it.

Thornton's best game at Duke. MOM? May have to choose Quinn, but TT deserves a lot of credit.

Rasheed Sulaimon! He was the only Duke player with energy in the first half.

TO's!?! Seventeen damned TO's! Think McFly! Think!

Tar Heel assessment -- pretty good game. I haven't seen them play as well.

For UNC: Bench player P.J. Hairston started and scored 23. UNC's defense was excellent -- a lot of guys in light blue played hard. I hate it when they do that!

sagegrouse

Probably right about Mason, but Quinn's contribution, and Ryan's before he was hurt, to Mason's improvement this year should not be underestimated. (not suggesting that you are.) Because of his poor foot work, Mason still struggles mightily at times to create his own shot, and his facing the basket shooting inside 5 feet remains a work in progress.

I am a bit surprised reading through the posts this morning at the amount of glass half empty comments. Sure it was an ugly win, but it was f***ing Carolina so let's celebrate a bit more. Coach K can do much more to motivate and instruct from this win than a blowout, and the player's confidence will benefit from the adversity, knowing they have the moxie to come from behind.

flyingdutchdevil
02-14-2013, 09:50 AM
Your assessment of McAdoo is similar to mine. He has the necessary athleticism but rarely produces against good competition. He could be a very good player, but will need more time. I doubt he will stay, but were he to stick around another year, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make a Plumlee-type jump. The physical tools are there, but his shot selection is still freshman-like. About 25 percent of his shots are "what the hell was he thinking" variety. I keep waiting for the game to slow down for him, but I'm losing hope it will happen this year.

IN his defense, he is the only scoring threat inside so defenses can really focus everything on him. And, until last night, we have not done enough to spread the floor to give him room. Since he has no back-to-the basket game, he needs some space to slash his way to the rim. He was effective in the first half because he had room to work. Our spacing deteriorated and your defense tightened in the second half and his productivity dropped considerably. He's also hurt by our weak PG play, which limits our ability to get out in transition where McAdoo can be very effective. So part of his struggles this year are due to the fact that the composition of this particular team makes it hard for him to play to his strengths.

He needs to spend some time (1) working on his shooting and (2) developing a "go to" move and (3) practicing the pump-fake. He goes straight up with everything which leads to some wild, off-balance shots and more blocks than one would expect given his size and athleticism.

Unfortunately for your fan base, the NBA loves that bolded stated above. Realistically, I cannot see him staying next year. I have a feeling Roy knows that as well, having recruited 9 big men for next year.

GGLC
02-14-2013, 09:52 AM
Congrats on the win. It wasn't pretty, but in the end it doesn't matter. A win in the rivalry game is something to be savored, period.

I'll throw in my two cents worth, although everything I predicted in the pre-game threat turned out to be wrong so I'm not sure my thoughts are worth even two cents.

For me the key to the games were:

1. The discrepancy in foul shooting. You hit them when it mattered, we missed six in a row. McAdoo should spend the summer at the line. Props to Plumlee for stepping up and making them during crunch time. His foul shooting was a microcosm of your team's overall performance- ugly but effective enough to get the job done.

2. Our wasted opportunities. You guys played a very poor first half- sloppy turnovers and very suspect defense. You opened a window of opportunity but we were not able to take advantage and build a big lead. In the first half we had some shockingly wide open threes, especially considering taking away the three had to be one of your defensive priorities. We just missed them. Hairston goes 1-7 and McDonald 0-3. Those guys shoot their season average and who knows how it might have turned out. In the second half, you played D with much more intensity and our offense, as has been the case all year, floundered.

3. Your role players outperformed ours. I expected Curry and Plumlee to beat us. Curry hit some big shots, but overall wasn't that efficient. And although Plumlee had decent numbers in the end, I thought he played a mediocre game given that he enjoyed a complete mismatch inside and was playing his final game against us at home. The foul trouble probably threw off his rhythm and aggressiveness. If you told me before the game that those two would combine for 29 points on 23 shots, I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, Thornton and Cook stepped up, scored well above their season averages, and really hurt us. On our side, we had scoring from the usual suspects, with Dex compensating for McAdoo, but no one a little further down the bench contributed. Paige missed some open shots early and took some really terrible ones late; McDonald shot a poor percentage. Brice Johnson, who can be a very efficiency scorer, was a non-factor and looked a little wild during his brief appearances.

Overall, both teams deserve credit for playing with intensity. I hope that UNC can show that same level of effort and focus going forward because I think we still have the potential to be a pretty solid team.

And though there is never any point indulging in "what ifs", I can't help but wonder/ fantasize about how things might have been this year had Marshall's draft stock been a little worse and Plums a little better. Grrr.

Great post, ChicagoHeel. I always enjoy reading your stuff, and you're a huge asset to the board.

UrinalCake
02-14-2013, 10:30 AM
I think Mason's career path could serve as a good model for McAdoo. Mason as a freshman played a limited role on a successful, veteran team and was able to show glimpses of NBA-level athleticism. He could have left then and been drafted on potential but chose to stay. Sound familiar? I have no idea how long McAdoo will be a Heel but if stays four years he would likely be a NPOY candidate by his senior year.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-14-2013, 10:31 AM
To Wheat and others who have watched more Tarheel basketball than I have this season -- what is your take on McAdoo?

Honestly, it was stunning to see him make some highlight reel plays last night and yet not reach double figures in scoring. He appears to have some physical gifts but doesn't seem to produce against good competition, or not produce at a level that might be expected.

Is he on his way to being a really good player? Does he work at shooting and free throw shooting? Both are obvious areas for improvement. Are there some issues with confidence or intensity?

Classic "tweener". He should watch Antawn Jamison tapes all day and night to see how to play with his skill set.

I think he needs to work really hard on his ball handling, and his court awareness, if he wants to have a pro career. Not to mention he could work on his foul shooting.

He has a nice midrange shot and some touch around the basket that I expect will get better in time, and great explosiveness to the rack.

He's not going to be an A1 post player, and I doubt will ever be, but he's being forced to be used as a post player this year.

What he really is, is more of a stretch forward with size, but he does not have the ability to put the ball on the floor at this point to play the wing as effectively as he should.

mkirsh
02-14-2013, 10:35 AM
Last night was not one of Mason's best efforts at finishing, but he still went for 18 and 11 and is at worst a co-favorite for NPOY, scoring exclusively within about 5 feet from the basket. He's been the most effective post player in the country this year and is averaging 2 more points, 1 more rebound, and shooting at a 5% better rate from the field than Zeller did last year. He came in as a freshman with zero post moves. Wheat sees mostly what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

Here are the stats:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=tyler-zeller&i=1&p1=mason-plumlee

Mason's year is very similar to Zeller's last year.

Mason is scoring 21 points/40 minutes compared to Zellers 23
Mason shooting 60% from the floor compared to Zellers 55%
Mason shooting 66% from the line compared to Zellers 81%
Mason 10.7 boards/game compared to Zellers 9.6
Mason 10.8 O rebound % compared to Zellers 14
Mason 23.6 D rebound % compared to Zellers 20.1
Mason 1.8 Assist/3.0 Turn compared to Zellers 0.9 A /1.9 TO
Mason 0 game winning 3's in his face compared to Zeller's 1

And I would argue that Zeller had much more help with 3 other first rounders on the floor with him last year - I don't think he had games where he was doubled and tripled like Mason has been this year.

mr. synellinden
02-14-2013, 11:08 AM
Last night I thought the most valuable players were Amile Jefferson and Tyler Thornton.

Hear me out: these Duke-Carolina games hinge on MOMENTS. Sparks and game changers. Thornton was the staple between our big runs; hitting CLUTCH 3's when we need hope the most. For Jefferson: UNC was killing us on the boards from the onset. But when there were some key moments, Amile Jefferson ripped down some rebounds when we needed it most in that awful first half. A major reason we stayed in that first half was due to Jefferson's timely rebounds.

Our best moments followed our worst last night. And during our low points, it was Amile Jefferson and Tyler Thornton who were beacons of hope.

Completely agree but partially - how's that for being oxy-moronish? I would add Sulaimon - he hit some tough and huge shots and made several great draw and dish plays.

Also, I thought the turning point in the game was Cook's steal and then the foul by Bullock. That was the start of a run that took us from down 38-31 to up 50-45. That 19-7 run decided the game. Also, It caused Coach K to jump up from the bench which seemed to jolt the team and the crowd.

On a related note re Jefferson, I still don't understand what he does to apparently get "benched" at times. Why didn't he start this game, but did the second half? He is such an active player - plays disruptive defense, rebounds on both ends and brings a lot of energy. I think we just play better with him on the floor - better than with Josh at the 4 or the Mason/4 guard lineup. But I trust Coach K - I just wonder what his thinking is in terms of Jefferson.

CDu
02-14-2013, 11:22 AM
Classic "tweener". He should watch Antawn Jamison tapes all day and night to see how to play with his skill set.

I think he needs to work really hard on his ball handling, and his court awareness, if he wants to have a pro career. Not to mention he could work on his foul shooting.

He has a nice midrange shot and some touch around the basket that I expect will get better in time, and great explosiveness to the rack.

He's not going to be an A1 post player, and I doubt will ever be, but he's being forced to be used as a post player this year.

What he really is, is more of a stretch forward with size, but he does not have the ability to put the ball on the floor at this point to play the wing as effectively as he should.

I'm not sure I see either of the bolded statements as accurate. McAdoo has virtually no midrange shooting touch. If it isn't a layup or dunk, it's just as likely to miss the rim entirely as it is to actually go in. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that he'll miss the rim than make it based on what I've seen this year (I've seen plenty more of his 10+ foot shots bang wildly off the backboard than I've seen them actually go in). And nothing about his game suggests he's a stretch forward. A stretch forward is a forward who can stretch the defense with his outside shot (like Ryan Kelly). Since McAdoo can't shoot, he's not really a stretch forward.

Basically, he's a tweener without the skillset of either a post player, midrange player, or perimeter player. He's a very good athlete who can finish around the rim if he's fed off a cut or if he gets an offensive rebound. But if he's asked to do anything on his own offensively, he's woefully underskilled.

I do agree that he has a terrific ceiling due to his athleticism. If he develops a consistent midrange game and/or the ability to handle the ball, he could be an absolute force. But he's VERY far from having either of those things right now.

Duvall
02-14-2013, 11:25 AM
I think Mason's career path could serve as a good model for McAdoo. Mason as a freshman played a limited role on a successful, veteran team and was able to show glimpses of NBA-level athleticism. He could have left then and been drafted on potential but chose to stay. Sound familiar? I have no idea how long McAdoo will be a Heel but if stays four years he would likely be a NPOY candidate by his senior year.

I don't know - that 45% FG shooting is deeply troubling for a guy that plays a lot in the post and never takes 3's. If McAdoo thinks he can fool a team into giving a guaranteed contract on athleticism alone, he should probably leave while he still has "upside."

vick
02-14-2013, 11:50 AM
I think Mason's career path could serve as a good model for McAdoo. Mason as a freshman played a limited role on a successful, veteran team and was able to show glimpses of NBA-level athleticism. He could have left then and been drafted on potential but chose to stay. Sound familiar? I have no idea how long McAdoo will be a Heel but if stays four years he would likely be a NPOY candidate by his senior year.

I don't know...McAdoo has great physical potential, but it seems like he's way behind what Mason was as a sophomore. Mason was a much more efficient scorer (eFG of 0.589 vs. 0.450), better offensive rebounder (11.7% vs. 9.2%), better defensive rebounder (22.3% vs. 19.3%), better passer (10.1% assist percentage vs. 7.8%, or if you like, 0.8 assist-turnover ratio vs. 0.5), vastly better shot blocker (5.7% vs. 0.9%), etc. Sure, McAdoo's scores more, but only because he shoots far more frequently--understandable given that he's not playing beside a senior Nolan Smith, a senior Kyle Singler, and Kyrie Irving, but still, I'm with Duvall, his shooting percentage is incredibly poor for a post player. Which isn't to say he can't turn it around, of course, but he's pretty far away I think.

sporthenry
02-14-2013, 12:01 PM
Also, did anyone else notice the punkish play by Hairston in the first half when he tossed the ball at Sheed after Sheed got knocked onto the floor into the basket support? Sulaimon got pissed and threw the ball right back at him. Love it!

I didn't see the game, but for some reason, I did look at IC and they had a topic dedicated to this. I hope IC's premium board is better but the basic one is ridiculous. Only there could UNC get more fouls and FTs and somehow the refs favored Duke. Final foul count was 22-18 but knock 3 off for intentional fouls so it was 22-15. I believe UNC was in the bonus with 10+ minutes and the double bonus when they only had 4 team fouls. They can pick any play and see a foul.

But perhaps my favorite thread was that UNC fans said we weren't good. No surprise there. But the logic to get there was great. They said they weren't any good and that 25+ teams could beat them by 30 at their home court. So there you have it.

nocilla
02-14-2013, 12:17 PM
On a related note re Jefferson, I still don't understand what he does to apparently get "benched" at times. Why didn't he start this game, but did the second half? He is such an active player - plays disruptive defense, rebounds on both ends and brings a lot of energy. I think we just play better with him on the floor - better than with Josh at the 4 or the Mason/4 guard lineup. But I trust Coach K - I just wonder what his thinking is in terms of Jefferson.

I think this was about matchups and not Jefferson. I think K initially wanted to go with Hairston in this game to defend McAdoo. But when UNC came out with PJ Hairston instead of a big, Coach K had to adjust and he quickly went to the quicker Jefferson. In the second half, Duke was just matching up better with the 4 guard lineup so Amile and Josh were kind of pinched for playing time.

If you ask Coach K who his 5 best players are he will probably list Thornton ahead of Amile and Josh. So when the matchup is right (against a smaller lineup) I think K gladly puts Thornton in the game in place of Amile and Josh like we saw last night and late in the BC game. Most situations don't allow that and K realizes he needs to have Amile and Josh's size in the lineup. Plus he needs someone to give his perimeter a breather, so Thornton fits the 6th man role in most games.

DukieInKansas
02-14-2013, 12:35 PM
2 Questions:

1. Cook was making a face like he was in pain during the last part of the game - or so it appeared to me. Was he hurt or just upset with his play?


2. What happened to Roy at the end of the game? He used all his timeouts so I'm wondering if someone took his place. :D

Ggallagher
02-14-2013, 12:50 PM
2 Questions:

1. Cook was making a face like he was in pain during the last part of the game - or so it appeared to me. Was he hurt or just upset with his play?

:D

I believe I saw the same thing you're referring to and it kind of frightened me for a few mintues. He seemed to really be grimacing and I thought he must have really been in considerable pain. I watched him closely after that and never saw anything that suggested he was injured, and shortly later he was smiling very broadly.
So I'm hoping it was either just some little dinger that hurt a lot for a few seconds - or maybe he was channeling Jon Scheyer.
I'd hate for him to be hurt as badly as his scrunched up face implied.

jv001
02-14-2013, 12:58 PM
Classic "tweener". He should watch Antawn Jamison tapes all day and night to see how to play with his skill set.

I think he needs to work really hard on his ball handling, and his court awareness, if he wants to have a pro career. Not to mention he could work on his foul shooting.

He has a nice midrange shot and some touch around the basket that I expect will get better in time, and great explosiveness to the rack.

He's not going to be an A1 post player, and I doubt will ever be, but he's being forced to be used as a post player this year.

What he really is, is more of a stretch forward with size, but he does not have the ability to put the ball on the floor at this point to play the wing as effectively as he should.

Just maybe ole roy doesn't know how to develop big men. Don't say hansflop, he was just as good high school senior as a college senior. Maybe we can send Wo-Jo over to give yall some tips on how to develop "bigs". GoDuke!

DukieInKansas
02-14-2013, 01:03 PM
I believe I saw the same thing you're referring to and it kind of frightened me for a few mintues. He seemed to really be grimacing and I thought he must have really been in considerable pain. I watched him closely after that and never saw anything that suggested he was injured, and shortly later he was smiling very broadly.
So I'm hoping it was either just some little dinger that hurt a lot for a few seconds - or maybe he was channeling Jon Scheyer.
I'd hate for him to be hurt as badly as his scrunched up face implied.

It worried me because I saw more than once when they huddled before a free throw. It looked like he favored a leg at one point - hopefully, just a twinge that will work its way out before Saturday.

Saratoga2
02-14-2013, 01:22 PM
I believe I saw the same thing you'reuinn referring to and it kind of frightened me for a few mintues. He seemed to really be grimacing and I thought he must have really been in considerable pain. I watched him closely after that and never saw anything that suggested he was injured, and shortly later he was smiling very broadly.
So I'm hoping it was either just some little dinger that hurt a lot for a few seconds - or maybe he was channeling Jon Scheyer.
I'd hate for him to be hurt as badly as his scrunched up face implied.

Watching Quinn and Austin last year, they both took on that hang dog look when they made mistakes. Kind of self flagellation. While Quinn has reduced the pained expressions this year, he still reverts to them and sometimes loses track of getting back on defense. I think he will continue to make progress as he becomes more experienced as a player.

sporthenry
02-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Watching Quinn and Austin last year, they both took on that hang dog look when they made mistakes. Kind of self flagellation. While Quinn has reduced the pained expressions this year, he still reverts to them and sometimes loses track of getting back on defense. I think he will continue to make progress as he becomes more experienced as a player.

I saw Cook do it a few times and both times he looked to be grabbing his neck almost like he slept on it wrong. But all of these times also coincided with mistakes he made. So either it hurt and when things were going good, he forgot about it but when they were going bad, the injury hurt more. But I wouldn't look too far into it. It is February and knocks are to be expected.

-bdbd
02-14-2013, 01:37 PM
Just maybe ole roy doesn't know how to develop big men. Don't say hansflop, he was just as good high school senior as a college senior. Maybe we can send Wo-Jo over to give yall some tips on how to develop "bigs". GoDuke!

Actually, that may be a theory worth spreading around the web. Just look at where the CAROLINA bigs were ranked coming out of HS, versus where they got drafted, and how they did in the pro's. Hansbrough was #1 or #2 in the country as a HS Senior, but certainly didn't get DRAFTED that high, and certainly hasn't excelled in the NBA like the rankings pre-UNC/Roy would seem to have predicted...


Separately, Bleacher report did up a "Report Card" on the NBA-prospects who played in last night's game. I done agree with some of these grades, but here you go for conversation...


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1528758-north-carolina-vs-duke-grading-top-nba-prospects-from-fierce-rivalry-game

Hairston gets an A+, really?? A kid who shot 1-7 from the arc? A good game yes, but A+ implies "near perfection."

Bullock a B+ ? Again, seems like a bit of hyperbole.

MP2 - gets another A+ . Umm, I love the guy, but that wasn't his best game by a long shot.

Cook - and he gets an A- ....Hmmm.

They also seem to pan McAdoo and Curry...

:confused:

ncexnyc
02-14-2013, 01:45 PM
I didn't see the game, but for some reason, I did look at IC and they had a topic dedicated to this. I hope IC's premium board is better but the basic one is ridiculous. Only there could UNC get more fouls and FTs and somehow the refs favored Duke. Final foul count was 22-18 but knock 3 off for intentional fouls so it was 22-15. I believe UNC was in the bonus with 10+ minutes and the double bonus when they only had 4 team fouls. They can pick any play and see a foul.

But perhaps my favorite thread was that UNC fans said we weren't good. No surprise there. But the logic to get there was great. They said they weren't any good and that 25+ teams could beat them by 30 at their home court. So there you have it.
I caught that thread and got a big laugh out of it. Some people need to think before they post. If we aren't a 1 or 2 as some of their fans believe, then what does that say about the Carolina program, since they aren't even ranked?

I was also wondering about Ol' Roy. TWC was running some of the comments made after last nights game and Ol' Roy said he's been thinking about the line-up change he used yesterday for at least five games now. Is he loyal to a fault? Didn't we see this with LDII? I seem to recall everyone and their brother was saying KM should have been the PG for that team way before Roy pulled the trigger on that move. Or is it he's just to wishy washy and afraid to make a move until it's way to obvious?

BD80
02-14-2013, 03:04 PM
McAdoo ... He's got some tools and looks like a star; he just doesn't produce like a star.

He's got the attitude and "support system" of a star.


I just listened to K's presser and he focused on Tyler more then anyone else. ... He said that Tyler will be a coach someday and that he studies the game, understands every position, and can lead on both sides of the court without touching the ball. He said Tyler would not let us lose and mentioned his 3s, the full court pass to Cook, and an offensive rebound he kept alive to extend a possession. ... K loves Thornton. ...

This is the essence of the difference between Coach K's teams and ol' roy's teams.



... Roy is coaching a team full of highly recruited talent to a 16-8 record, middle-of-the-pack ACC finish, and the NCAA tournament bubble, ...

I'm sure someone has the comparison of the players' high school rankings which wouls support the suggestion that unc has more "talent."

Frankly, watching the game, there just wasn't much difference in the talent level, which supports my contention that Coach K is the far better coach, considering what each team has accomplished to date.

As frustrated as I get with Tyler and Seth, I tend to forget that neither was a highly ranked recruit, they just understand the game and make the most of what they have.

As much as I want to see Alex on the floor, he is a half-step slow on his reactions/rotations, and costs us points. He is getting there.

Coach K is a master at putting his players in a position to succeed. He did it again last night. Kudos to all.

Lar77
02-14-2013, 03:15 PM
Completely agree but partially - how's that for being oxy-moronish? I would add Sulaimon - he hit some tough and huge shots and made several great draw and dish plays.

Also, I thought the turning point in the game was Cook's steal and then the foul by Bullock. That was the start of a run that took us from down 38-31 to up 50-45. That 19-7 run decided the game. Also, It caused Coach K to jump up from the bench which seemed to jolt the team and the crowd.

On a related note re Jefferson, I still don't understand what he does to apparently get "benched" at times. Why didn't he start this game, but did the second half? He is such an active player - plays disruptive defense, rebounds on both ends and brings a lot of energy. I think we just play better with him on the floor - better than with Josh at the 4 or the Mason/4 guard lineup. But I trust Coach K - I just wonder what his thinking is in terms of Jefferson.

The 3 pointer that Rasheed took during our run was as ballsy as anything JJ ever did. Carolina had 4 guys in position and it would have changed the flow of the game had he missed. But it looked like when he shot he knew it was going.

And Tyler has the heart of a lion, or a honey badger. He routinely guards guys half a foot taller, but he doesn't care.:D

Ggallagher
02-14-2013, 03:26 PM
I believe I saw the same thing you're referring to and it kind of frightened me for a few mintues. He seemed to really be grimacing and I thought he must have really been in considerable pain. I watched him closely after that and never saw anything that suggested he was injured, and shortly later he was smiling very broadly.
So I'm hoping it was either just some little dinger that hurt a lot for a few seconds - or maybe he was channeling Jon Scheyer.
I'd hate for him to be hurt as badly as his scrunched up face implied.

I just watched the "Best Plays of the Game" on Blue Planet. Watching Quinn jump in at the end of the video made me think he was just fine - and made me like him even more.
What a great team.

Wander
02-14-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm not sure I see either of the bolded statements as accurate. McAdoo has virtually no midrange shooting touch. If it isn't a layup or dunk, it's just as likely to miss the rim entirely as it is to actually go in. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that he'll miss the rim than make it based on what I've seen this year (I've seen plenty more of his 10+ foot shots bang wildly off the backboard than I've seen them actually go in). And nothing about his game suggests he's a stretch forward. A stretch forward is a forward who can stretch the defense with his outside shot (like Ryan Kelly). Since McAdoo can't shoot, he's not really a stretch forward.

Agreed. In fact, ALL of his non-layup/dunk attempts were missed last night (and at least one layup attempt as well). Allow me to quote from Luke Winn:

"Among the biggest differences between Duke and Carolina: Mason Plumlee delivers in the post, while James Michael McAdoo, who appeared on far more preseason All-America lists than Plumlee did, hasn't been able to score on the blocks with even a mild degree of efficiency. For a 4/5 man who draws significant defensive attention in the post, anything higher than 0.9 PPP is great. Plumlee is right around 0.9 PPP overall; McAdoo isn't even close."

sagegrouse
02-14-2013, 04:33 PM
The 3 pointer that Rasheed took during our run was as ballsy as anything JJ ever did. Carolina had 4 guys in position and it would have changed the flow of the game had he missed. But it looked like when he shot he knew it was going.

And Tyler has the heart of a lion, or a honey badger. He routinely guards guys half a foot taller, but he doesn't care.:D

I have noticed one thing about Tyler. When he is called for a foul, the other player is lying on the floor.

sagegrouse

jimsumner
02-14-2013, 05:03 PM
I have noticed one thing about Tyler. When he is called for a foul, the other player is lying on the floor.

sagegrouse

He does tend to get his money's worth. :)

BD80
02-14-2013, 05:09 PM
He does tend to get his money's worth. :)

Tyler = Money Badger?

freedevil
02-14-2013, 07:31 PM
Kudos to you for recovering from that coma you were in while Larry Drew was at UNC ;)

Now THAT's funny (and a very good point).

moonpie23
02-14-2013, 07:50 PM
Tyler = Money Badger?

he's pretty bad as*

Newton_14
02-14-2013, 09:02 PM
This will be lengthy so apologies. First, I think many people are way over analyzing this game, and two, saw things that really were not as they appeared. 2 case in points on the latter. 1. Duke students tried to rush the court. That absolutely did not happen. With all the horn/clock trouble at the end, K was trying to keep all the normal personnel that run onto the court at the end of each game, to get back off the court because he did not think the game was officially over. He was not admonishing students who were trying to rush the court, because no students were trying to rush the court. 2. McAdoo dominated Mason. Again, not even close to truth. McAdoo out quicked Mason 3 times for scores in the first half. Once on a rebound Mason should have got, and twice on cuts to the basket. That's it. And even with all the missed chippies by Mason in the first half, he still had more points and more rebounds than McAdoo for a good portion of the 1st half when Mason was supposedly getting schooled. Once Mason settled down in the last 7 minutes of the game, he played excellent in the post, backing McAdoo down methodically and shooting right over him or drawing fouls. That's how he got to the 18 and 10 numbers. Not a great game by Mason by any stretch. The fouls and being too hyped hurt him. He should have went for 30.

Back to point 1 though. Over the years, one of the staples of this rivalry is every so often it throws us a stinker game. Both teams get so hyped they simply can't play, and they make stupid mistakes out of character, leading to lots of fouls and lots of turnovers. That was Duke for a large portion of the first half. Some of the turnovers and fouls were just terrible. By the time Duke settled down, they were dead tired and fatigued, but found a way to grind out a win.

Regarding Seth, the leg was clearly bothering him all night. He received treatment on the bench several times throughout the game. That combined with good defense on him by UNC limited his effectiveness. Two years ago, UNC used those same bigger, stronger, longer defenders on Seth, and he lit them up in the 2nd half along with Nolan to help Duke come back and win. And he was not nearly the player then he is now. It is a real shame Seth is not healthy. A healthy Seth (and for that matter a healthy Kelly) and the score is not nearly as close. With both healthy it is a beat down.

Roy. LOL. Wheat. LOL. Earlier this week I posted that Roy should be using the starting lineup and rotation he used last night. (Though I did say to start McDonald at the 2 and use Dex to back up the wings and Paige) But he largely played it exactly like I said he should play it. (As did a few other DBR posters). Wheat said I was way off base and that Roy was making all the right moves and playing all the right players and using a good rotation, but the problem was with the players not executing. No blame on Roy said Wheat. Yet after this game, Wheat flip flops and says that Roy played the exact right players last night and it almost worked. Unreal. Then in the presser, when IC's own Greg Barnes calls out Roy on the completely different starters and rotation with 6 kids playing the bulk of the minutes, and asks if this was a one time ploy just for Duke, or would this be the strategy moving forward against all opponents, Roy gets mad and trots out the same old song and dance. "I know my team. Everyone else has been saying I should do this except start PJ over someone else (Dexter). Well they don't know what in the dickens they are talking about. I may start 5 totally different guys Saturday and go back to my 12 man rotation". So predictable. Had Roy used last night's strategy from Day 1 this season, his team would not have 8 losses and 1 win that does not count. But please Roy, never listen to us again. Go back to your 12 man rotation with PJ getting 19 minutes a game instead of 34. Do it your way.

Mason an undeveloped terrible post player huh? Yeah thats why he is a first team All America, likely ACC POY, and in the running for NPOY with better numbers than Zeller had at UNC last year. Plays a very subpar game by his standards and goes for 18-11 and seals the game with 4 straight free throws under tremendous game pressure in a Duke/UNC game no less.

I attribute the bad Duke play to being over hyped which led to uncharacteristic mistakes by several players. Help defense was bad but mostly due to odd lineups without much experience together, combined with foul trouble and 1st half over hype and 2nd half fatigue. Heck at one key point in the 2nd half, Josh was at the 5 and Tyler was playing the 4 spot! Tyler Thornton was huge even though he made a few mistakes too. Once it became apparent that Seth had nothing left in the tank down the stretch, K went to Rasheed over and over and he delivered, as did Quinn and Tyler. In the last 6 minutes Mason joined them and became dominant in the post.

Duke's defense improved, and UNC could not get it in the hoop. I think Roy-white posted that McAdoo had zero points after the reverse dunk with 17 minutes left. Finished with 9 points and almost as many bricks. So sorry, I can't agree he dominated or schooled Mason.

But like I said, it was an ugly game both ways. At one point I felt both teams should have been down by 20. But credit UNC's kids for hanging tough and refusing to be put away, and credit Duke for stepping up in those last 15 minutes and making enough winning plays to get it done.

Duke is much better than what they showed last night. A good team that should be ranked around 8-10 based on current available players, and with a healthy Kelly, a Championship level team.

Like I said after the BC game, it is always better to play poorly and still win, vs doing that and losing. Now they just need to rest up and find enough energy to play a good game against Maryland. Hopefully Seth will feel better on Saturday and play his normal high level game. Going to be a tough one,

Just my take on the game last night and darn glad the guys sucked it up and beat the hated heels. As others noted that alone is cause for celebration!

Go Duke!

Kedsy
02-14-2013, 10:46 PM
I attribute the bad Duke play to being over hyped which led to uncharacteristic mistakes by several players. Help defense was bad but mostly due to odd lineups without much experience together, combined with foul trouble and 1st half over hype and 2nd half fatigue.

I think it may be possible that the "bad Duke play" was actually due to being knocked back by the UNC lineup change. Obviously Duke prepared for the past several days with a game plan predicated on several base assumptions. I presume the assumptions were based on the concepts that UNC would play two bigs and would go 10 or 11 deep (as partly evidence by Josh being in the starting lineup). Without Ryan's versatility and experience, I think Duke just may not be that good at adapting when the other team diverges from whatever Duke prepared for.

Consider the past nine games (all games since Ryan went down). The following games began with something unexpected, in the sense that Duke probably didn't prepare for it:

(1) @NCSU, first game without Ryan -- Duke loses by 8
(2) @Miami, Reggie Johnson goes all Willis Reed on us -- Duke loses by 27
(3) @Wake, Wake decides to single-cover Mason and drape all over our three point shooters -- Duke wins by only 5
(4) @BC, first the snow disrupts our travel plans and routine, then they decide to triple-team Mason -- Duke wins by only 1
(5) UNC, Roy Williams trots out a completely new lineup and rotation -- Duke wins by only 5

The games with little or no surprises:

(1) Ga Tech -- Duke cruises by 16
(2) Maryland -- Duke cruises by 20
(3) @FSU -- Duke cruises by 19
(4) NCSU -- Duke cruises to 20+ point lead and coasts to 13 point win

Sure, four of the five games in the first list were on the road and three of the four on the second list are at home, and maybe that's part of the whole comfort level thing, but I think there's a real possibility that when the current squad (sans Ryan) is able to execute the game plan they cruise but when they aren't able to do so (generally because of a major wrinkle introduced by our opponent) they start slow and generally have trouble.

Hopefully when Ryan gets back, his versatility, savvy, and experience will ameliorate this phenomenon. In the meantime, if the opponent throws us a curve I'd expect us to struggle. The good news is the first two surprises on the list above were losses and the more recent three were close wins. Maybe it's because the first two games were tougher games but it's also possible we're getting better at adapting.

I'm not sure who can read this article and who can't, but there's an article over at BDN (http://bluedevilnation.net/2013/02/post-game-duke-vs-unc/) that goes into this in more detail.

daveyro
02-15-2013, 08:48 AM
You absolutely get to tell K he should learn how to use a big man better.

However, when Roy is coaching a team full of highly recruited talent to a 16-8 record, middle-of-the-pack ACC finish, and the NCAA tournament bubble, by using a rotation that makes no sense to anyone outside of Roy, presumably his coaching staff, and some admirably faithful Tarheel fans like you...while Duke's starting center is a leading candidate for NPOY...you are going to have a tough time convincing anyone that we're wrong to question Roy and you're right in your assessment of Mason. It just may not be the hill you want to die on today.

Still, to be fair to Wheat, we could pull up a laundry list of threads from this very forum over the years and find plenty of Blue Devil fans questioning Duke's use of, and development of, bigs. But Mason's play, and Duke's offensive scheme, this year, are probably the worst possible evidence you could use to criticize Duke's development of and use of the post.

(FWIW, I'm firmly in the camp that believes that (1) Duke has done a very good job over K's tenure developing bigs; and (2) when Duke hasn't focused on feeding the post, it's because K actually coaches the offense to play to it's strengths and low post offense, at those times, wasn't one of our strengths)

It is common wisdom that Duke is a guard oriented program. Just look at the coaching staff, with all guards and Wojo as big man coach. We've had big man with talent - Alaa, Shav, Ferry, Brand, Laettner, Mason, Boozer - but they were all 4's and except Boozer, don't match up well with big men in the NBA. Brand is almost a three in the NBA. Mason's been here for years, and has two moves (hook in the lane, spin to the baseline). His points come from good guard dishes and o-rebounds. He should have a face up 10 foot jumper, along with a series of up and under fakes fakes by now, and have the footwork to improvise. When he drove the lane in Hells game and tried a finger-roll, I was pumped even though the shot didn't fall. where's that move been? I love having him on the team, but his game still has too many holes. Yes I know he gets a lot of points, but like Ferry, Laettner, he will be a role player in the NBA.
As they say in AAU, guards and wingman (the Grant Hill, Dunleavy, Battier model) go to Duke, centers go to Georgetown and Big Ten schools. Would love to true center, Mike Gminski, on the bench. Wojo is a great coach, but high school big men with NBA aspirations and 2 years of projected tenure want to learn how to defend and score against legit NBA post players and Duke is not where you go that type of skill development.

But boy do we recruit, coach, use guards like no other school

Kedsy
02-15-2013, 10:17 AM
It is common wisdom that Duke is a guard oriented program. Just look at the coaching staff, with all guards and Wojo as big man coach.

It may be common, but it sure ain't wisdom. Why do our own fans keep trotting out this tired old tripe? Or are you a troll?


Brand is almost a three in the NBA.

What games have you been watching?


Mason's been here for years, and has two moves (hook in the lane, spin to the baseline). His points come from good guard dishes and o-rebounds. He should have a face up 10 foot jumper, along with a series of up and under fakes fakes by now, and have the footwork to improvise. When he drove the lane in Hells game and tried a finger-roll, I was pumped even though the shot didn't fall. where's that move been? I love having him on the team, but his game still has too many holes.

Mason has improved as much or more than any big man in the country from freshman to senior year. He's a frontrunner for first team All America, and he's one of the two or three leading candidates for NPOTY. Personally, I think he's doing pretty well.


Yes I know he gets a lot of points...

Well, he also gets a lot of rebounds (7th in the country). And he shoots better than 60% from the field. And he averages 1.7 blocks per game and 1.0 steals per game. What more do you want from him?


...but like Ferry, Laettner, he will be a role player in the NBA.

Christian Laettner was an NBA starter for more than 10 years. He averaged more than 12 ppg eight times, more than 16 ppg five times, and more than 18 ppg twice. He averaged more than 6 rpg nine times and more than 8.5 rpg three times. He made an NBA All Star team. Pretty good "role player."


As they say in AAU, guards and wingman (the Grant Hill, Dunleavy, Battier model) go to Duke, centers go to Georgetown and Big Ten schools.

Well, if they say it in AAU, it must be true.


Would love to true center, Mike Gminski, on the bench. Wojo is a great coach, but high school big men with NBA aspirations and 2 years of projected tenure want to learn how to defend and score against legit NBA post players and Duke is not where you go that type of skill development.

Again, why do alleged Duke fans keep spouting this nonsense? Gminski was a great player at Duke and is a good announcer. Other than his height, though, do you have any reason to believe he'd be a better big man coach than Wojo?

DukieInBrasil
02-15-2013, 10:23 AM
It is common wisdom that Duke is a guard oriented program. Just look at the coaching staff, with all guards and Wojo as big man coach. We've had big man with talent - Alaa, Shav, Ferry, Brand, Laettner, Mason, Boozer - but they were all 4's and except Boozer, don't match up well with big men in the NBA. Brand is almost a three in the NBA. Mason's been here for years, and has two moves (hook in the lane, spin to the baseline). His points come from good guard dishes and o-rebounds. He should have a face up 10 foot jumper, along with a series of up and under fakes fakes by now, and have the footwork to improvise. When he drove the lane in Hells game and tried a finger-roll, I was pumped even though the shot didn't fall. where's that move been? I love having him on the team, but his game still has too many holes. Yes I know he gets a lot of points, but like Ferry, Laettner, he will be a role player in the NBA.
As they say in AAU, guards and wingman (the Grant Hill, Dunleavy, Battier model) go to Duke, centers go to Georgetown and Big Ten schools. Would love to true center, Mike Gminski, on the bench. Wojo is a great coach, but high school big men with NBA aspirations and 2 years of projected tenure want to learn how to defend and score against legit NBA post players and Duke is not where you go that type of skill development.

But boy do we recruit, coach, use guards like no other school

Yes, i suppose being an All-star in the NBA is just being a "role-player", in that the role is to be one of the best players in the league at that position. Yes, both Laettner and Brand were All-stars at the POWER FORWARD position. Brand is not, and was not ever "almost a 3". Laettner was an All-star in the NBA before he ruptured his Achilles tendon, after said injury he was much diminished and yes a role player, but only AFTER the injury. Brand also ruptured his Achilles tendon, and was much diminished from his days as an All-star PF.
I guess you should ask Miles Plumlee about how, as such a terrible coach of big men, it was that he went from being a completely un-heralded HS player, completely off of everybody's NBA radar, to being a 1st-round draft pick. I suppose Wojo held him back as a player so much that he went from having no discernible NBA future to being in the NBA. I guess it was Wojo who also held Mason back by helping him become a NPOY contender.

Des Esseintes
02-15-2013, 10:37 AM
It is common wisdom that Duke is a guard oriented program. Just look at the coaching staff, with all guards and Wojo as big man coach. We've had big man with talent - Alaa, Shav, Ferry, Brand, Laettner, Mason, Boozer - but they were all 4's and except Boozer, don't match up well with big men in the NBA. Brand is almost a three in the NBA. Mason's been here for years, and has two moves (hook in the lane, spin to the baseline). His points come from good guard dishes and o-rebounds. He should have a face up 10 foot jumper, along with a series of up and under fakes fakes by now, and have the footwork to improvise. When he drove the lane in Hells game and tried a finger-roll, I was pumped even though the shot didn't fall. where's that move been? I love having him on the team, but his game still has too many holes. Yes I know he gets a lot of points, but like Ferry, Laettner, he will be a role player in the NBA.
As they say in AAU, guards and wingman (the Grant Hill, Dunleavy, Battier model) go to Duke, centers go to Georgetown and Big Ten schools. Would love to true center, Mike Gminski, on the bench. Wojo is a great coach, but high school big men with NBA aspirations and 2 years of projected tenure want to learn how to defend and score against legit NBA post players and Duke is not where you go that type of skill development.

But boy do we recruit, coach, use guards like no other school

Man, I had hoped--stupid, foolish hope on my part--that in a year with a NPOY candidate playing at the 5 we could get some relief from this garbage. Nope!

That list of yours is ridiculous. Abdelnaby, Randolph, Brand, Laettner, Mason, and Boozer were all centers at Duke. Maybe you mean NBA centers? In which case: you are still wrong and confused. Because Boozer is most certainly a power forward, and Brand played center a great deal of his early career. (Plus, tons of players slide down a position when the get to the Association. It doesn't mean much, except that people in the NBA are preternaturally tall.) But somehow you fail to include SHELDEN WILLIAMS, a guy with his jersey in the rafters and probably the second-most-decorated center of K's tenure, and Brian Zoubek, who was a huge reason we won our last title. This guy's a troll, right?

Nor do most of Mason's points come from "good guard dishes and o-rebounds." Were you asleep Wednesday night when he put the game away backing McAdoo down in the post? Never mind that no center can score without regular entry passes and that offensive rebounding is, like, a good center skill.

But yes, since we have chosen not to think or remember things, let's have another conversation about how Wojo sucks at his job.

Edit: a couple of you beat me to this. Thank you.

oldnavy
02-15-2013, 11:12 AM
About the whole Mason being schooled by McAdoo nonsense, well I just hope that he continues to get schooled like that for the rest of the year.

McAdoo scored 6 first half points and 3 points in the first 1:30 of the second half. After that he was completely shut down, and actually HURT his teams chances for a win, while Mason did everything he needed to do to HELP his team win.

Yet, I venture to bet that the next UNC game, some announcer will bring up JAMES MICAEL MCADOO as a potential all ACC player or even still in the hunt as ACC POY.... it's in the talking points they get before each game.

Honestly, I cannot understand how some folks see the game of basketball.... but if Mase got schooled, then I hope he stays in class, because it worked out great for him and us!

MarkD83
02-15-2013, 11:47 AM
On ESPN the other night one of the hosts of SportsCenter got fed up that the San Antonio Spurs were not getting more publicity even though they are one of the best teams in the league. The reason being that they play fundamental basketball and don't need spectacular plays to win.

The perception that McAdoo "schooled" Mason is due to the ONE reverse slam early in the second half. It is a highlight play that looks good to the fans with short attention spans and don't understand basketball. The hook shot in the lane that is unstoppbale by Mason is not highlight material, but give me the 18 and 10 every night with the good feeds from guards for unspectaclar plays and the "boring" hook shots.

moonpie23
02-15-2013, 11:59 AM
thanks to stu HOMER scott...

billy
02-15-2013, 12:02 PM
The perception that McAdoo "schooled" Mason is due to the ONE reverse slam early in the second half.

Not to be overly argumentative, but, that wasn't exactly a slam (see Jerry Stackhouse vs Erik Meek for a real reverse slam). More like a reverse finger roll....

COYS
02-15-2013, 12:38 PM
Not to be overly argumentative, but, that wasn't exactly a slam (see Jerry Stackhouse vs Erik Meek for a real reverse slam). More like a reverse finger roll....

Plus one to this. That was an ugly almost dunk/layup thingy that resulted in the ball barely going through the net. Two points is two points, but I would hardly say that it was a play that would upstage Mason. Quite honestly, I don't know who besides Tar Hole fans actually argue that JMM outplayed Mason. Both the eye test and the box score demonstrate without a doubt who was busy helping their team win with the game on the line and who was bricking midrange jumpers early in the shot clock and getting abused on the (too few) occasions we got Mason the ball on the low post.

jipops
02-15-2013, 12:43 PM
It is common wisdom that Duke is a guard oriented program. Just look at the coaching staff, with all guards and Wojo as big man coach. We've had big man with talent - Alaa, Shav, Ferry, Brand, Laettner, Mason, Boozer - but they were all 4's and except Boozer, don't match up well with big men in the NBA. Brand is almost a three in the NBA. Mason's been here for years, and has two moves (hook in the lane, spin to the baseline). His points come from good guard dishes and o-rebounds. He should have a face up 10 foot jumper, along with a series of up and under fakes fakes by now, and have the footwork to improvise. When he drove the lane in Hells game and tried a finger-roll, I was pumped even though the shot didn't fall. where's that move been? I love having him on the team, but his game still has too many holes. Yes I know he gets a lot of points, but like Ferry, Laettner, he will be a role player in the NBA.
As they say in AAU, guards and wingman (the Grant Hill, Dunleavy, Battier model) go to Duke, centers go to Georgetown and Big Ten schools. Would love to true center, Mike Gminski, on the bench. Wojo is a great coach, but high school big men with NBA aspirations and 2 years of projected tenure want to learn how to defend and score against legit NBA post players and Duke is not where you go that type of skill development.

But boy do we recruit, coach, use guards like no other school

Curious. What is UNC's most recent productive or non"role-player"-sh (or whatever pre-requisites you apply) big man to be put into the association? Can't be Hansbrough given your logic. What about Syracuse? Kansas?, Ohio State?, Michigan?, Gonzaga?, Michigan State?.... Has Calipari ever developed one at UK... or ever (don't say Camby, career role-player)?

yea, I'm thinking there is no real deficiency here for Duke.

subzero02
02-15-2013, 12:48 PM
It may be common, but it sure ain't wisdom. Why do our own fans keep trotting out this tired old tripe? Or are you a troll?



What games have you been watching?



Mason has improved as much or more than any big man in the country from freshman to senior year. He's a frontrunner for first team All America, and he's one of the two or three leading candidates for NPOTY. Personally, I think he's doing pretty well.



Well, he also gets a lot of rebounds (7th in the country). And he shoots better than 60% from the field. And he averages 1.7 blocks per game and 1.0 steals per game. What more do you want from him?



Christian Laettner was an NBA starter for more than 10 years. He averaged more than 12 ppg eight times, more than 16 ppg five times, and more than 18 ppg twice. He averaged more than 6 rpg nine times and more than 8.5 rpg three times. He made an NBA All Star team. Pretty good "role player."

Well, if they say it in AAU, it must be true.



Again, why do alleged Duke fans keep spouting this nonsense? Gminski was a great player at Duke and is a good announcer. Other than his height, though, do you have any reason to believe he'd be a better big man coach than Wojo?


Christian was just really beginning to hit his stride in the NBA when he ruptured his achilles tendon. I believe the injury occurred the year after he made his first and only all star game. An achilles injury is one of the most devestating in terms of its negative impact on athletic ability. Look at what this injury did to Ronald Curry, a freakish athlete who was reduced to just a very good athlete after rupturing his achilles.

Duvall
02-15-2013, 12:51 PM
Curious. What is UNC's most recent productive or non"role-player"-sh (or whatever pre-requisites you apply) big man to be put into the association? Can't be Hansbrough given your logic. .

Well, by the time you factor out NBA 4's and role players, I think you have to go back to Brad Daugherty, maybe?

pfrduke
02-15-2013, 12:53 PM
Well, by the time you factor out NBA 4's and role players, I think you have to go back to Brad Daugherty, maybe?

Rasheed Wallace? Or is he a 4?

rsvman
02-15-2013, 12:56 PM
blah, blah, blah.....Duke can't develop bigs... yada, yada, yada......Wojo is too short to be a big-man coach.......blah, blah, blah......Duke bigs are all a bust at the NBA level......yada, blah, blah

(I took the liberty of shortening the quoted post somewhat.)



Well, duh. It's because all they teach big men to do at Duke is set screens. [insert good eye-rolling smilie here]






(And by the way, we really need a good eye-rolling smilie.)

Billy Dat
02-15-2013, 01:03 PM
Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but what's wrong with being an NBA role player? Assuming that the definition is non-All-Star, non-All-NBA and maybe, too, non-All-Star/All-NBA-but-primary star-on-your team, that pretty much describes everyone in the NBA who is a rotation player - roughly 240 players. Duke guys have proven to stick in the league for 10 years or so. That means career earnings between $50MM - $100MM for every role player - because some of those role players make $10MM per (see Humprhies, Kris). Being an NBA role player is a huge deal.

sporthenry
02-15-2013, 01:03 PM
Wait, Mason is a 4 now? So Duke must be going really small. Somehow the NBA classifies Dajuan Blair as a C at 6'7 yet Mason and Miles are 6'11 PFs? Learn something new everyday.

Duvall
02-15-2013, 01:28 PM
Rasheed Wallace? Or is he a 4?

Hasn't he consistently played the 4 in the NBA? At least as much as Boozer and Brand have, I think.

oldnavy
02-15-2013, 01:50 PM
Not to be overly argumentative, but, that wasn't exactly a slam (see Jerry Stackhouse vs Erik Meek for a real reverse slam). More like a reverse finger roll....

True. It is a play that summarizes McAdoo. A very 'weak' but highly athletic move. Good quickness to go baseline, but he almost rim stuffed himself at the finish. Had MP2 given any defensive resistance chances are the shot would not have gone in. (I understand why MP2 didn't contest the shot, and I am not saying he should have even).

McAdoo is weak. He plays weak. Anybody that thinks he is a power forward isn't watching what I am watching.
Not to say he isn't talented, but he needs to hit more of his open jumpers and increase his range, OR get stronger and go to the rim with more force. Better yet, do both.

Right now he is neither a good small forward or a good power forward... the potential is there, but he has to develop it. He is probably the third best player on a pretty bad team. I give the nod to Bullock, and PJ Hairston over JMM.

What drives me crazy is that the media is doing the same thing with JMM (albeit not nearly as bad) as they did with HB. Pumping him up while ignoring the more deserving players.

Stu Scott is going to go UNC on us every time. I guess that is part of the reason it aggravates me (a little) that both Jay Will and Jay Bilas are so dang fair! I wish we had at least one homer to offset Kenny Mayne and Stu Scott!

jipops
02-15-2013, 02:08 PM
Rasheed Wallace? Or is he a 4?

Daugherty and Wallace came into the league a long time ago. Which makes the point. If Duke has a weakness producing NBA star big men/post players (which it doesn't), don't many other programs including UNC have that same weakness?

Olympic Fan
02-15-2013, 02:10 PM
What drives me crazy is that the media is doing the same thing with JMM (albeit not nearly as bad) as they did with HB. Pumping him up while ignoring the more deserving players.


You touched on one of my biggest pet peeves -- the adoration of McAdoo at the expense of Ryan Anderson "a more deserving player."

Look, they are both 6-9 sophomore forwards.

Anderson scores more points, averages more rebounds, shoots a higher percentage from the field, shoots a higher prcentage from the foul line, averages more assists, less turnovers, and more blocked shots.

He's CLEARLY the better player of the two, yet you wouldn't know it from the ACC media.

jipops
02-15-2013, 02:15 PM
Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but what's wrong with being an NBA role player? Assuming that the definition is non-All-Star, non-All-NBA and maybe, too, non-All-Star/All-NBA-but-primary star-on-your team, that pretty much describes everyone in the NBA who is a rotation player - roughly 240 players. Duke guys have proven to stick in the league for 10 years or so. That means career earnings between $50MM - $100MM for every role player - because some of those role players make $10MM per (see Humprhies, Kris). Being an NBA role player is a huge deal.

This is a great point. I remember before the draft Redick was quoted as thinking his potential in the NBA is that of 95% of the rest of the league, a role player. And as a role player he has been kicking some major butt, especially this season. There have even been role players in the past that have even made an all-star team, Tyrone Hill to name one.

And yes, the money isn't bad either.

dukelifer
02-15-2013, 02:30 PM
Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but what's wrong with being an NBA role player? Assuming that the definition is non-All-Star, non-All-NBA and maybe, too, non-All-Star/All-NBA-but-primary star-on-your team, that pretty much describes everyone in the NBA who is a rotation player - roughly 240 players. Duke guys have proven to stick in the league for 10 years or so. That means career earnings between $50MM - $100MM for every role player - because some of those role players make $10MM per (see Humprhies, Kris). Being an NBA role player is a huge deal.

You are right. Most in the NBA are role players- each team has a couple stars (if that) and that group is pretty stable. There are just a handful of true superstars. As Giminski once said- sitting on an NBA bench in years 8-12 is like stealing money- a lot of money. It is a pretty good gig to play a game- even for a few minutes- that you would be playing anyway, somewhere- and get paid a lot of cash to do it.

oldnavy
02-15-2013, 03:21 PM
What drives me crazy is that the media is doing the same thing with JMM (albeit not nearly as bad) as they did with HB. Pumping him up while ignoring the more deserving players.


You touched on one of my biggest pet peeves -- the adoration of McAdoo at the expense of Ryan Anderson "a more deserving player."

Look, they are both 6-9 sophomore forwards.

Anderson scores more points, averages more rebounds, shoots a higher percentage from the field, shoots a higher prcentage from the foul line, averages more assists, less turnovers, and more blocked shots.

He's CLEARLY the better player of the two, yet you wouldn't know it from the ACC media.

Great illustration. I wasn't even thinking about players from other teams in the league. Anderson is a better player to be sure.

I was just thinking about the UNC "darling" each year. Last year and the year before it was HB, even though he was probably the 3rd or even 4th most important player on those teams. This year, they have annointed JMM as "the dude". Like I said, he is probably the 3rd best player on this years team, but they will not let it go. It's almost like they have to say it or that it is scripted for them???

It's funny because the good commentator's know and don't follow the script. Jay Bilas will not say outrageous things about players or their ability, but he and Bob Knight are the only two (maybe Jimmy Dykes) that seem to have some sense when it comes to this. About three games ago, Len Elmore said the JMM was playing well enough to be in the talk for ACC/POY, at which I got up and left the room. My wife was in control of the TV or I would have just muted it like I usually do.:)

billy
02-15-2013, 04:34 PM
3186
Plus one to this. That was an ugly almost dunk/layup thingy that resulted in the ball barely going through the net. Two points is two points, but I would hardly say that it was a play that would upstage Mason.

Funny that his running down the court screaming, arms to the sides, in a world-beater sort of way, was way more demonstrative than Jerry's reaction

arnie
02-15-2013, 04:48 PM
3186

Funny that his running down the court screaming, arms to the sides, in a world-beater sort of way, was way more demonstrative than Jerry's reaction

The Carolina Way

subzero02
02-15-2013, 05:25 PM
Wait, Mason is a 4 now? So Duke must be going really small. Somehow the NBA classifies Dajuan Blair as a C at 6'7 yet Mason and Miles are 6'11 PFs? Learn something new everyday.

Kind of like how 6'4"/6'5" charles barkley was a power forward and 6'9" magic johnson was a point guard

sporthenry
02-15-2013, 05:44 PM
Kind of like how 6'4"/6'5" charles barkley was a power forward and 6'9" magic johnson was a point guard

Yeah, but that one actually made sense. Magic was the PG and Barkley played on the block. I guess the lines are blurring between the 4 and 5 but I'm not sure how guys like LeBron and Melo are starting to play the 4 and KG is starting to play the 5 and Mason is a 4. If Zeller is a C, then I think Mason is a C.

roywhite
02-15-2013, 06:04 PM
Yeah, but that one actually made sense. Magic was the PG and Barkley played on the block. I guess the lines are blurring between the 4 and 5 but I'm not sure how guys like LeBron and Melo are starting to play the 4 and KG is starting to play the 5 and Mason is a 4. If Zeller is a C, then I think Mason is a C.

Yeah, Duke has two 6'11" guys:

One moves around a lot, can shoot 3's and mid-range jumpers
Let's call him a 4 or a stretch 4 and identify him as Ryan Kelly

Another operates primarily close to the basket, tries to get the ball down low, often has dunks or layups, seldom shoots beyond 5 feet
Let's call him a 5 and identify him as Mason Plumlee

ncexnyc
02-15-2013, 06:09 PM
My normal routine is to DVR the games and watch them when I get home from work. Since this was UNC vs. Duke, I had to take a half day of vacation so I could watch. Now maybe it was the emotion of what I was seeing, but I firmly believe what I saw, which is why I posted the following after the game.

ďNot a great game from Mason as JMM was schooling him for most of the game, but as others have already mentioned Mason finished with a nice stat line and made his free throws at the end.Ē

ďWhere are these stats on JMM coming from? It sure seemed like he was blowing by Mason left and right at will. ď

ďYes I know. I'm just reflecting back on what I was watching and he seemed a lot more dominate than his final numbers show. ď

Now it seems my comments got a few members upset and they didnít quite see things the way I did, which is fine. So far nobody else has addressed this matter, so I decided to take a peek at the in game thread and see if others were seeing things the way I was and low and behold quite a few were voicing similar sentiments.

I wonít post their names, but here is what a number of other members had to say. Please note, a number of these posters are quite well respected on this board.
1.Mason getting outhustled by McAdoo thus far. Thatís unacceptable.
2. Are we really this slow?
3. Cook and Plumlee trying to do to much.
4. Mason is playing really poorly right now. Iím not sure whatís going on.
5. Címon now, Mason. Deep breath.
6. Plumlee has been really shaky so far. Just getting outworked by McAdoo, over and over.
7. That said McAdoo now has two fouls. It will be interesting to see what Williams does now, because so much of what is working so far for UNC is that McAdoo is handily winning the match-up at C.
8. Duke is too hyped and Plumlee needs to be more patient.
9. We should be down 20. Horrible play by Plumlee over and over.
10. This is the worst Mason has played all year.
11. No tonight itís MVP Plumlee. Iím afraid to look at TO stats.

12. My view is that Mason has been poor at the defensive end and reboundingÖ..
13.And Mason starts the second half in bad manner. Allowing two offensive rebounds and committing his third foul.
14. Apparently same as the first half.
15. Mason canít stop McAdoo.

At least I know Iím not crazy and a number of regulars felt the same as I did.

wilko
02-15-2013, 07:03 PM
Semi related is this study UNC is doing on concussions... LINK (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/a-concussion-will-give-you-a-headache-/12109687/)

Where can I volunteer to "wack-a-Heel" to help them with their research?

TruBlu
02-15-2013, 07:21 PM
Semi related is this study UNC is doing on concussions... LINK (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/a-concussion-will-give-you-a-headache-/12109687/)

Where can I volunteer to "wack-a-Heel" to help them with their research?

Gerald Henderson is conducting a seminar on this subject.

BD80
02-15-2013, 07:29 PM
Semi related is this study UNC is doing on concussions... LINK (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/a-concussion-will-give-you-a-headache-/12109687/) ...

How is an incoming Duke recruit related to the unc study?

Kedsy
02-15-2013, 07:53 PM
...so I decided to take a peek at the in game thread and see if others were seeing things the way I was and low and behold quite a few were voicing similar sentiments.

Not sure that the comments from a DBR in-game thread, especially from a game that we're losing, can be used as evidence of anything.

MChambers
02-15-2013, 08:20 PM
Not sure that the comments from a DBR in-game thread, especially from a game that we're losing, can be used as evidence of anything.

Evidence of frustration, or a spoiled fan base?

ncexnyc
02-15-2013, 08:49 PM
Not sure that the comments from a DBR in-game thread, especially from a game that we're losing, can be used as evidence of anything.


Evidence of frustration, or a spoiled fan base?

Evidence? Nope just perception. Frustration? Maybe, but considering the people who were making the comments and some of them are very leveled headed I don't think so.

If some of you want to sit back and say in hindsight that you didn't feel this way during the game, well that's fine. And if you want to tell yourself you knew we had it in the bag and undercontrol, well that's fine also.

MChambers
02-15-2013, 08:54 PM
Evidence? Nope just perception. Frustration? Maybe, but considering the people who were making the comments and some of them are very leveled headed I don't think so.

If some of you want to sit back and say in hindsight that you didn't feel this way during the game, well that's fine. And if you want to tell yourself you knew we had it in the bag and undercontrol, well that's fine also.
I didn't see the game, nor did I see the in-game thread, so wasn't commenting on either of those, but instead on the utility of DBR in-game threads generally. Sorry to cause confusion.

Duvall
02-15-2013, 09:00 PM
My normal routine is to DVR the games and watch them when I get home from work. Since this was UNC vs. Duke, I had to take a half day of vacation so I could watch. Now maybe it was the emotion of what I was seeing, but I firmly believe what I saw, which is why I posted the following after the game.

ďNot a great game from Mason as JMM was schooling him for most of the game, but as others have already mentioned Mason finished with a nice stat line and made his free throws at the end.Ē

ďWhere are these stats on JMM coming from? It sure seemed like he was blowing by Mason left and right at will. ď

ďYes I know. I'm just reflecting back on what I was watching and he seemed a lot more dominate than his final numbers show. ď

Now it seems my comments got a few members upset and they didnít quite see things the way I did, which is fine. So far nobody else has addressed this matter, so I decided to take a peek at the in game thread and see if others were seeing things the way I was and low and behold quite a few were voicing similar sentiments.

I wonít post their names, but here is what a number of other members had to say. Please note, a number of these posters are quite well respected on this board.
1.Mason getting outhustled by McAdoo thus far. Thatís unacceptable.
2. Are we really this slow?
3. Cook and Plumlee trying to do to much.
4. Mason is playing really poorly right now. Iím not sure whatís going on.
5. Címon now, Mason. Deep breath.
6. Plumlee has been really shaky so far. Just getting outworked by McAdoo, over and over.
7. That said McAdoo now has two fouls. It will be interesting to see what Williams does now, because so much of what is working so far for UNC is that McAdoo is handily winning the match-up at C.
8. Duke is too hyped and Plumlee needs to be more patient.
9. We should be down 20. Horrible play by Plumlee over and over.
10. This is the worst Mason has played all year.
11. No tonight itís MVP Plumlee. Iím afraid to look at TO stats.

12. My view is that Mason has been poor at the defensive end and reboundingÖ..
13.And Mason starts the second half in bad manner. Allowing two offensive rebounds and committing his third foul.
14. Apparently same as the first half.
15. Mason canít stop McAdoo.

At least I know Iím not crazy and a number of regulars felt the same as I did.

Who said you were crazy? You're just wrong, and blatantly so. A choice between stats and fan observations is no choice at all.

oldnavy
02-15-2013, 09:08 PM
Who said you were crazy? You're just wrong, and blatantly so. A choice between stats and fan observations is no choice at all.

I had the unique (maybe) opportunity to watch the game after reading a lot of the comments on the in-game thread and knowing the stats.

I was actually expecting to see something that I did not see. Sure Mason was playing poorly and JMM did make a couple of good plays, but what I was seeing did not add up to what I had read on the board.

I think that many posters were frustrated and if you post immediately after JMM dunks and Mason bricks a shot, you naturally will be overly negative.

However watching the game and knowing how the stat lines played out beforehand made it much easier to see that JMM was not dominating MP2.

I am willing to give the posters a break that posted in the heat of the moment when the final outcome was in doubt.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-15-2013, 09:11 PM
Evidence? Nope just perception. Frustration? Maybe, but considering the people who were making the comments and some of them are very leveled headed I don't think so.

If some of you want to sit back and say in hindsight that you didn't feel this way during the game, well that's fine. And if you want to tell yourself you knew we had it in the bag and undercontrol, well that's fine also.

Just to chime in on this topic as I was posting during the in-game thread; it was apparent to me in the 1st half JMM was clearly outplaying MP2. He was quicker and more active. Mason was obviously over-excited and needed to refocus. In the 2nd half, he did just so, taking control of the paint while JMM took some bad shots and in general faded away.

I don't think any of the in-game posts, while emotionally charged, were off base in criticizing MP2 and the Duke team as a whole for a pretty lousy half of basketball.

Newton_14
02-15-2013, 09:32 PM
Just to chime in on this topic as I was posting during the in-game thread; it was apparent to me in the 1st half JMM was clearly outplaying MP2. He was quicker and more active. Mason was obviously over-excited and needed to refocus. In the 2nd half, he did just so, taking control of the paint while JMM took some bad shots and in general faded away.

I don't think any of the in-game posts, while emotionally charged, were off base in criticizing MP2 and the Duke team as a whole for a pretty lousy half of basketball.

I agree and my comments were not directed at ncexnyc FWIW. Mason came out too hyped as did most of the Duke kids and it led to bad play. JMM used his quickness on 3 occassions in the first half to beat Mason to the punch and score. No doubt at all. However, for whatever reason, some people took those 3 plays (and in fairness on one other play JMM out quicked Mason on a rebound attempt leading to the ball going out of bounds off Mason. so make it 4 plays) and stretched the storyline to the point where you would have thought JMM had 20 and 10 at the half and Mason had 2 points or something. The reality though, was that Mason had more points and more rebounds than JMM much of the 1st half.

Then the baseline drive for the reverse fingertip dunk happened early in the 2nd half which only gave the myth legs. At that point Mason still had better stats and that would be the final points of the night for JMM who would finish with a grand total of 9 points, and was horrible in the last 17 minutes of the game despite Mason being in major foul trouble. Meanwhile, Mason settled down and took over down the stretch with very smooth and controlled post moves directly over JMM.

Like others, I just get sick of all the hype JMM gets. He is at best the 3rd best player on a bad team. Mason on the other hand is the best player on a top 5 (with Ryan)-top 10 (w/o Ryan) team, is the leading candidate for ACC POY, and is a strong candidate for NPOY.

Like I said in my original post, Mason had a pretty bad game most of the night, but turned it around down the stretch to help put the Devils over the top. I am sure if you asked him, Mason would say he played poorly. Yet he finished with 18-10. Had he controlled the UNC/DUKE adrenaline from the opening tip, he would have gone for 30 again.

CDu
02-15-2013, 09:35 PM
My normal routine is to DVR the games and watch them when I get home from work. Since this was UNC vs. Duke, I had to take a half day of vacation so I could watch. Now maybe it was the emotion of what I was seeing, but I firmly believe what I saw, which is why I posted the following after the game.

ďNot a great game from Mason as JMM was schooling him for most of the game, but as others have already mentioned Mason finished with a nice stat line and made his free throws at the end.Ē

ďWhere are these stats on JMM coming from? It sure seemed like he was blowing by Mason left and right at will. ď

ďYes I know. I'm just reflecting back on what I was watching and he seemed a lot more dominate than his final numbers show. ď

Now it seems my comments got a few members upset and they didnít quite see things the way I did, which is fine. So far nobody else has addressed this matter, so I decided to take a peek at the in game thread and see if others were seeing things the way I was and low and behold quite a few were voicing similar sentiments.

I wonít post their names, but here is what a number of other members had to say. Please note, a number of these posters are quite well respected on this board.
1.Mason getting outhustled by McAdoo thus far. Thatís unacceptable.
2. Are we really this slow?
3. Cook and Plumlee trying to do to much.
4. Mason is playing really poorly right now. Iím not sure whatís going on.
5. Címon now, Mason. Deep breath.
6. Plumlee has been really shaky so far. Just getting outworked by McAdoo, over and over.
7. That said McAdoo now has two fouls. It will be interesting to see what Williams does now, because so much of what is working so far for UNC is that McAdoo is handily winning the match-up at C.
8. Duke is too hyped and Plumlee needs to be more patient.
9. We should be down 20. Horrible play by Plumlee over and over.
10. This is the worst Mason has played all year.
11. No tonight itís MVP Plumlee. Iím afraid to look at TO stats.

12. My view is that Mason has been poor at the defensive end and reboundingÖ..
13.And Mason starts the second half in bad manner. Allowing two offensive rebounds and committing his third foul.
14. Apparently same as the first half.
15. Mason canít stop McAdoo.

At least I know Iím not crazy and a number of regulars felt the same as I did.

I suspect that I was the one who posted #1 (and perhaps others). But I posted them in the first half. Mason shut McAdoo down in the second half.

At the half, it seemed that Mason was getting outplayed. Even into the beginning of the second half, that was the case. But shortly into the second half, he stepped up and dominated McAdoo for the last 15-20 minutes of the game.

In total, Mason clearly won the matchup. But it didn't look like that would be the case in the early going. Quoting the first half game thread posts as evidence that Mason was outplayed for the majority of the game is faulty logic.

CDu
02-15-2013, 09:57 PM
I agree and my comments were not directed at ncexnyc FWIW. Mason came out too hyped as did most of the Duke kids and it led to bad play. JMM used his quickness on 3 occassions in the first half to beat Mason to the punch and score. No doubt at all. However, for whatever reason, some people took those 3 plays (and in fairness on one other play JMM out quicked Mason on a rebound attempt leading to the ball going out of bounds off Mason. so make it 4 plays) and stretched the storyline to the point where you would have thought JMM had 20 and 10 at the half and Mason had 2 points or something. The reality though, was that Mason had more points and more rebounds than JMM much of the 1st half.

Then the baseline drive for the reverse fingertip dunk happened early in the 2nd half which only gave the myth legs. At that point Mason still had better stats and that would be the final points of the night for JMM who would finish with a grand total of 9 points, and was horrible in the last 17 minutes of the game despite Mason being in major foul trouble. Meanwhile, Mason settled down and took over down the stretch with very smooth and controlled post moves directly over JMM.

Like others, I just get sick of all the hype JMM gets. He is at best the 3rd best player on a bad team. Mason on the other hand is the best player on a top 5 (with Ryan)-top 10 (w/o Ryan) team, is the leading candidate for ACC POY, and is a strong candidate for NPOY.

Like I said in my original post, Mason had a pretty bad game most of the night, but turned it around down the stretch to help put the Devils over the top. I am sure if you asked him, Mason would say he played poorly. Yet he finished with 18-10. Had he controlled the UNC/DUKE adrenaline from the opening tip, he would have gone for 30 again.

Let's clarify something here. At the half, here was the stat line for the two players:

McAdoo: 6 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover.
Plumlee: 8 points, 4 rebounds, 1 block, 4 turnovers

And remember that (1) McAdoo sat for several minutes with 2 fouls and (2) UNC ran almost no plays for McAdoo (so he did all of his scoring on his own) whereas Duke made a concerted effort to get Mason the ball. So at the half, I'd say that McAdoo was outplaying Mason.

As of 2 minutes into the second half, McAdoo had added a rebound, a free throw, and another dunk, while Mason added another rebound. So as of 22 minutes into the game, McAdoo had 1 more point, 2 more rebounds, and 3 fewer turnovers. Considering that Mason is a player of the year candidate and McAdoo can't shoot to save his life, Mason was clearly getting outplayed in a matchup we needed to win.

Now, AFTER that point, it was completely one-sided. Mason picked up 10 points, 6 rebounds, and 1 steal. McAdoo finished with no more points, 1 more rebound, and 1 more steal.

It's fair to say that, in the second half, Mason dominated the matchup. But it was not a myth that McAdoo outplayed Plumlee over the first 22 minutes of the game.

sporthenry
02-15-2013, 10:01 PM
Mason had a very quiet 18/11. McAdoo had a very loud 9 and 8. If you gave me those stat lines blindly, I probably would have thought they were reversed. I still don't think Mason had a great game but usually a sign of a great player is the ability to put up those numbers despite a bad game. Similarly, the sign of an over-hyped player is the guy who puts up 9 and 8 but seemingly puts up 20/10. He makes the exciting plays but doesn't do the small stuff.

Newton_14
02-15-2013, 11:00 PM
Let's clarify something here. At the half, here was the stat line for the two players:

McAdoo: 6 points, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover.
Plumlee: 8 points, 4 rebounds, 1 block, 4 turnovers

And remember that (1) McAdoo sat for several minutes with 2 fouls and (2) UNC ran almost no plays for McAdoo (so he did all of his scoring on his own) whereas Duke made a concerted effort to get Mason the ball. So at the half, I'd say that McAdoo was outplaying Mason.

As of 2 minutes into the second half, McAdoo had added a rebound, a free throw, and another dunk, while Mason added another rebound. So as of 22 minutes into the game, McAdoo had 1 more point, 2 more rebounds, and 3 fewer turnovers. Considering that Mason is a player of the year candidate and McAdoo can't shoot to save his life, Mason was clearly getting outplayed in a matchup we needed to win.

Now, AFTER that point, it was completely one-sided. Mason picked up 10 points, 6 rebounds, and 1 steal. McAdoo finished with no more points, 1 more rebound, and 1 more steal.

It's fair to say that, in the second half, Mason dominated the matchup. But it was not a myth that McAdoo outplayed Plumlee over the first 22 minutes of the game.

Yep, technically correct. I should have said Mason had similar stats rather than better. My overall point was that the meme was JMM was dominating or schooling or having his way, (pick a meme) with Mason, but it just was not nearly as bad as it was being made out to be. Mason also had two fouls early on as well, which only made his normal "backing off" on defense even worse. JMM just used his quickness to beat Mason to spots more than anything else. Which is the one skill JMM has that is better than Mason.


The myth was not that JMM outplayed Mason those first 22 minutes. He did but not by that much. The myth was that JMM dominated/schooled/had his way with/over Mason during that stretch. I think the stat breakdown you show above proves that.

I also think it fair to say JMM played much worse in the final 18 minutes than Mason did in the first 22. I think it clear too that too much adrenaline combined with foul trouble were big contributors to the poor play by Mason. The bad play by JMM was caused by.... well.... a poor skillset.

In other news, I am very interested to see Roy's starting lineup and rotation tomorrow and the remainder of the year. I am still somewhat shocked at just how different his rotation was in this game vs every single game prior. Hubert has started and played quite a few minutes in every game all year. Have not looked it up but I would think he is averaging 20+ mpg on the year. He played 1 minute against Duke, and in all honesty hie is their best post defender. I actually thought he would draw the assignment against Mason for the bulk of the game. Brice Johnson has played several minutes per game most of the year as well. He barely saw the floor. James was hurt but has played in every game though lesser minutes. Same for Tokoto.

For those that missed the post-game presser, I thought the question by Greg Barnes irritated the heck out of Roy which led to the dadgum snarky reply. Roy is stubborn if nothing else, and hates when people suggest he make changes. Will he go back to the revolving door rotation, or will the veteran wings take over the bulk of playing time from here on out in a 1 big, 1 PG, 3 wing line up?

To me they are a much much better team with the 1 big line up. Will Roy suck it up and go with that look the remainder of the way?

hillsborodevil
02-16-2013, 06:39 AM
P.S. Glad Roy saved a timeout to pull that halfcourt pass play with 5 seconds left. I wish that Mason would have gone up strong to block PJ Hairston's dunk in the final seconds. I've got no problem with Hairston trying to dunk there, but I also having no problem with Mason trying to swat that and not really care if he fouls him and knocks him hard to the ground either ;)
GTHC!!!!!!!!

I agree totally. The play was disrespectful. Mason should've been called for his 5th foul sending waves of Mojo throughout the entire team and campus. We will need this kind of Mojo come March.

Also like moving the Maryland thread down the ladder. They are not our rivals. :eek:

oldnavy
02-16-2013, 06:50 AM
Yep, technically correct. I should have said Mason had similar stats rather than better. My overall point was that the meme was JMM was dominating or schooling or having his way, (pick a meme) with Mason, but it just was not nearly as bad as it was being made out to be. Mason also had two fouls early on as well, which only made his normal "backing off" on defense even worse. JMM just used his quickness to beat Mason to spots more than anything else. Which is the one skill JMM has that is better than Mason.


The myth was not that JMM outplayed Mason those first 22 minutes. He did but not by that much. The myth was that JMM dominated/schooled/had his way with/over Mason during that stretch. I think the stat breakdown you show above proves that.

I also think it fair to say JMM played much worse in the final 18 minutes than Mason did in the first 22. I think it clear too that too much adrenaline combined with foul trouble were big contributors to the poor play by Mason. The bad play by JMM was caused by.... well.... a poor skillset.

In other news, I am very interested to see Roy's starting lineup and rotation tomorrow and the remainder of the year. I am still somewhat shocked at just how different his rotation was in this game vs every single game prior. Hubert has started and played quite a few minutes in every game all year. Have not looked it up but I would think he is averaging 20+ mpg on the year. He played 1 minute against Duke, and in all honesty hie is their best post defender. I actually thought he would draw the assignment against Mason for the bulk of the game. Brice Johnson has played several minutes per game most of the year as well. He barely saw the floor. James was hurt but has played in every game though lesser minutes. Same for Tokoto.

For those that missed the post-game presser, I thought the question by Greg Barnes irritated the heck out of Roy which led to the dadgum snarky reply. Roy is stubborn if nothing else, and hates when people suggest he make changes. Will he go back to the revolving door rotation, or will the veteran wings take over the bulk of playing time from here on out in a 1 big, 1 PG, 3 wing line up?

To me they are a much much better team with the 1 big line up. Will Roy suck it up and go with that look the remainder of the way?

The bolded parts are key. Roy has defiantly defended his use of players and rotation. Then he sneaks out a totally different pattern in the Duke game that was somewhat successful. Will that be enough to turn him? I have no idea, but it will be interesting to see. He is a VERY stubborn man, even my die-hard Roy apologist family members and friends conceide that point.

I think he does stay with the 1 big line-up. Roy can see how that worked, and I don't think he will be so stubborn as to go back to the 2 bigs, but you never can tell. The one thing that was different, was that Joel James was hurt, so I am not sure if that factored into Roy's decision to not go with 2 bigs because he was afraid of foul trouble or what....

wilko
02-16-2013, 08:10 AM
How is an incoming Duke recruit related to the unc study?

errrr?
I thought it was fair game on the the unc thread (in a very general, snarky - lets poke fun at them, kind of way.)
I didn't think I referred to any incoming Duke OR unc recruit in a direct or indirect way.


Sometimes on the board when hairs are split to the subatomic level - I feel compelled to change things up.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-16-2013, 08:36 AM
Personally, I find it easier to understand negativity in game than postgame. In game negative posts can be excused as "analysis" whereas postgame feels like nitpicking after another conference W.

Additionally, I think that Mason didn't play a bad game or get outplayed, but was he victim of very high expectations. Many here thought we would have a big advantage at center and Roy's lineup gambit appeared to enhance that. I was hoping for a really big night, given the sum total of factors and the emotion of the rivalry game at home.

However, I am always happy with a win, especially over UNC. I am on the record many times about my feelings regardin gloom and doom posts after a victory, so I won't go into that. Now, let's get Kelly back and run he table.

Go Duke

slower
02-16-2013, 08:50 AM
Let me just add that my negative comments seem to come at "low points" in games. I think I posted something negative when we were down 28-18. And you know what? I have EVERY right to do so, and so does everybody else. For God's sake, we're the #1 or #2 ranked team in the country, playing an unranked team at home.

Yeah, I know it's UNC, so the records don't matter, yada yada yada. Yeah, I know there's parity and all the top teams are losing these kinds of games. But it certainly doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings about our NCAA prospects without Kelly. If/when he comes back, and hasn't lost anything due to rust or injury, we're in the mix. Without him, forget about it. Without Kelly, we will inevitably run into a matchup disadvantage that can't be overcome.

DukieInBrasil
02-16-2013, 09:03 AM
Yep, technically correct. I should have said Mason had similar stats rather than better. My overall point was that the meme was JMM was dominating or schooling or having his way, (pick a meme) with Mason, but it just was not nearly as bad as it was being made out to be. Mason also had two fouls early on as well, which only made his normal "backing off" on defense even worse. JMM just used his quickness to beat Mason to spots more than anything else. Which is the one skill JMM has that is better than Mason.
The myth was not that JMM outplayed Mason those first 22 minutes. He did but not by that much. The myth was that JMM dominated/schooled/had his way with/over Mason during that stretch. I think the stat breakdown you show above proves that.
I also think it fair to say JMM played much worse in the final 18 minutes than Mason did in the first 22. I think it clear too that too much adrenaline combined with foul trouble were big contributors to the poor play by Mason. The bad play by JMM was caused by.... well.... a poor skillset.



The 4 turnovers for Mason were one of the biggest drivers of that perception, it made him look nervous, over-anxious, or un-veteran, whereas JM looked rather under control. Mason also had a worse shooting percentage than JMM in the 1st half. So just looking at points and saying they were about equal doesn't really tell the story: Duke was going to Mason over and over, and Duke was getting points on less than 1/3 of the times the possession ended with Mason touching the ball. UNC however, was not feeding JM as much, he wasn't turning it over and was shooting a higher %, so UNC was getting points on ~1/2 the possessions that ended with JM touching the ball.
Totally different story in the second half. Perhaps the negative nellies of the 1st half (myself included) should have made an equal number of comments detailing how Mason was owning JM in the 2nd half. It appears that we are not as apt to comment when our expectations are met.

Native
02-16-2013, 09:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ6VBGWgSDM

Probably one of my all-time favorite DBP videos.

sagegrouse
02-16-2013, 09:13 AM
Let me just add that my negative comments seem to come at "low points" in games. I think I posted something negative when we were down 28-18. And you know what? I have EVERY right to do so, and so does everybody else. For God's sake, we're the #1 or #2 ranked team in the country, playing an unranked team at home.

Yeah, I know it's UNC, so the records don't matter, yada yada yada. Yeah, I know there's parity and all the top teams are losing these kinds of games. But it certainly doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings about our NCAA prospects without Kelly. If/when he comes back, and hasn't lost anything due to rust or injury, we're in the mix. Without him, forget about it. Without Kelly, we will inevitably run into a matchup disadvantage that can't be overcome.

In the cold light of day (it has snowed every day this week) I am inclined to give UNC and Roy some credit. The Heels came out with lots of energy, denying the entry pass to our only inside threat and working really hard to control Curry. Bullock and Hairston were aggressive in going to the rim. It worked. After the first 15 minutes the Heels couldn't continue the same defensive and offensive pace, and Duke came back. Not to belittle UNC, the game reminded me of Santa Clara, when the Broncos played Duke to a standstill the first half but couldn't maintain the pace.

UNC suffers from an underpowered offense -- Bullock and Hairston from the outside or on drives is pretty much it. McAdoo is an athletic player without a shot. The other bigs are a long way from helping against good teams. Paige is a bit overmatched as a freshman, which doesn't mean he won't be a very good player in the future.

sagegrouse

BD80
02-16-2013, 09:20 AM
errrr?
I thought it was fair game on the the unc thread (in a very general, snarky - lets poke fun at them, kind of way.)
I didn't think I referred to any incoming Duke OR unc recruit in a direct or indirect way.


Sometimes on the board when hairs are split to the subatomic level - I feel compelled to change things up.

You said it was Semi related. Sorry, too subtle, not funny enough.

TruBlu
02-16-2013, 09:26 AM
You said it was Semi related. Sorry, too subtle, not funny enough.

Probably the majority of the folks got it, and thought it was funny. I did.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-16-2013, 09:30 AM
Roy. LOL. Wheat. LOL. Earlier this week I posted that Roy should be using the starting lineup and rotation he used last night. (Though I did say to start McDonald at the 2 and use Dex to back up the wings and Paige) But he largely played it exactly like I said he should play it. (As did a few other DBR posters). Wheat said I was way off base and that Roy was making all the right moves and playing all the right players and using a good rotation, but the problem was with the players not executing. No blame on Roy said Wheat. Yet after this game, Wheat flip flops and says that Roy played the exact right players last night and it almost worked. Unreal. Then in the presser, when IC's own Greg Barnes calls out Roy on the completely different starters and rotation with 6 kids playing the bulk of the minutes, and asks if this was a one time ploy just for Duke, or would this be the strategy moving forward against all opponents, Roy gets mad and trots out the same old song and dance. "I know my team. Everyone else has been saying I should do this except start PJ over someone else (Dexter). Well they don't know what in the dickens they are talking about. I may start 5 totally different guys Saturday and go back to my 12 man rotation". So predictable. Had Roy used last night's strategy from Day 1 this season, his team would not have 8 losses and 1 win that does not count. But please Roy, never listen to us again. Go back to your 12 man rotation with PJ getting 19 minutes a game instead of 34. Do it your way.


You're gonna throw your shoulder out patting yourself on the back for Roy playing a line up that you, and about the entire UNC fan base, has been wanting to see.

I never said this, "Wheat said I was way off base and that Roy was making all the right moves and playing all the right players and using a good rotation".

What I did say was the players were not executing.

I never "flip flopped" and said "...that Roy played the exact right players last night and it almost worked".

When you call me out in the future, all I ask is that you quote me accurately and not what you think you hear.

As for this Mason debate....

Mason is a very good and powerful college player. He's a stud athlete with experience now. But being the best of a mediocre bunch does not make a player great.

I have been critical of his post game. Especially his offensive development. It is not what it could be for a player like him, but of course that's my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

But you know what, has anyone noticed I don't sing the praises of any post player in college this year? There are some pretty good ones, when they decide to stay in the post...Zeller, Len, Withey....to name a few, but nobody stands out as a game changing center in the college game this season.

I see Mason as a successful NBA player. I see him playing a role much like Rodman played. He's gonna be a really good rebounder, and a strong defender inside. When he scores it will be put backs and transition dunks. No coach is going to run a play for him to get his shot off. There will be four better options on the floor.

There is nothing meant to be bad about that judgement, he's going to make a ton of money and be a great teammate for some NBA team. It just is what it is, and my opinion.

wilko
02-16-2013, 09:30 AM
You said it was Semi related. Sorry, too subtle, not funny enough.

Its funny now that you pointed it out. I obviously need more coffee.

davekay1971
02-16-2013, 09:35 AM
Let me just add that my negative comments seem to come at "low points" in games. I think I posted something negative when we were down 28-18. And you know what? I have EVERY right to do so, and so does everybody else. For God's sake, we're the #1 or #2 ranked team in the country, playing an unranked team at home.

Yeah, I know it's UNC, so the records don't matter, yada yada yada. Yeah, I know there's parity and all the top teams are losing these kinds of games. But it certainly doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings about our NCAA prospects without Kelly. If/when he comes back, and hasn't lost anything due to rust or injury, we're in the mix. Without him, forget about it. Without Kelly, we will inevitably run into a matchup disadvantage that can't be overcome.

I try to avoid negative posting in the in-game threads mainly because I realize that I'm hyped up, stressed, and anxious and, when our guys aren't playing as well as they could, I get frustrated and would be overly inclined to negatively vent if my fingers touched the keyboard. What I say at home, fortunately, disappears quickly into the ether where it belongs and doesn't ever reach the attention of, say, the players. My wife, however, can attest that I can be overly critical and negative when we're struggling. As a State fan, she has a far better reserve for watching her team do something astronomically stupid yet still forcing herself to watch and cheer for them. Her usual comment when I swear about one of our guys making a boneheaded pass or forcing a bad shot or missing a defensive assignment is: "This is what I deal with when State plays, all the time. Get over it and cheer for your team, you wuss."

When we're playing Carolina, I really avoid putting any of my vitriole in writing. Like most of us, I could probably committed to inpatient psych treatment based solely on my actions and words during any given Duke-UNC game (except the 2010 game and the 2011 ACC tournament championship, which were happy, stress free parties).

How does the first half of the UNC game predict our possible tournament success? I don't think it does. Too small of a sample size, very unique circumstances. I get more worried watching our struggles against BC or Wake. There's no doubt that if we have one of those games where no one is hitting from the outside, a less talented but hyped-up team playing well can beat us. That can happen in the 2nd or 3rd round, and that would stink. But that's the agony of the one-and-done tournament format. One bad day and you get to hear UNC fans talk about Lehigh even as their team limps to a possible NIT tournament appearance.

But we saw the same potential in 2010, so the flip side is possible as well, when a Duke team that is vulnerable plays well for 3 straight weekends and we take home the trophy. I hope Ryan comes back, too, and think our chances of winning the NCAAT are considerably lower without him. But I always think it's a mistake to put a cap on any team's NCAAT potential and say a loss is "inevitable". It's just too unpredictable dealing with young teams in a single elimination format.

Kedsy
02-16-2013, 11:44 AM
The 4 turnovers for Mason were one of the biggest drivers of that perception, it made him look nervous, over-anxious, or un-veteran, whereas JM looked rather under control.

Well, two of Mason's four turnovers were offensive fouls, and UNC was, dare I say it, flopping a bit so I don't think the offensive fouls made Mason look like any of the things you list. McAdoo had two first half turnovers as well (and neither of them were offensive fouls), so once again I think the perception that he outplayed Mason in some way was incorrect.

CDu
02-16-2013, 11:52 AM
Well, two of Mason's four turnovers were offensive fouls, and UNC was, dare I say it, flopping a bit so I don't think the offensive fouls made Mason look like any of the things you list. McAdoo had two first half turnovers as well (and neither of them were offensive fouls), so once again I think the perception that he outplayed Mason in some way was incorrect.

I don't think it's incorrect to say that McAdoo outplayed Plumlee in the first half. He had more rebounds, a better FG%, fewer turnovers, and nearly as many points despite not being the focal point of the offense like Plumlee was.

Now, in the second half (more specifically the last 18 minutes), it was a different story. Mason totally dominated the matchup for the last 18 minutes. But for the first 22 minutes, McAdoo definitely outplayed Mason.

Bob Green
02-16-2013, 11:55 AM
I try to avoid negative posting in the in-game threads mainly because I realize that I'm hyped up, stressed, and anxious and, when our guys aren't playing as well as they could, I get frustrated and would be overly inclined to negatively vent if my fingers touched the keyboard. What I say at home, fortunately, disappears quickly into the ether where it belongs and doesn't ever reach the attention of, say, the players. My wife, however, can attest that I can be overly critical and negative when we're struggling.

One advantage of participating in a chat instead of the in-game thread is there is no permanent record of all the stupid things I type when overcome with emotions.


...I think the perception that he outplayed Mason in some way was incorrect.

34,518 posters on InsideCarolina disagree with you. ;)

roywhite
02-16-2013, 11:57 AM
I don't think it's incorrect to say that McAdoo outplayed Plumlee in the first half. He had more rebounds, a better FG%, fewer turnovers, and nearly as many points despite not being the focal point of the offense like Plumlee was.

Now, in the second half (more specifically the last 18 minutes), it was a different story. Mason totally dominated the matchup for the last 18 minutes. But for the first 22 minutes, McAdoo definitely outplayed Mason.

Yeah, okay, though that doesn't mean it was somehow a 1-1 tie.

Duke won the game and Mason won the matchup.

I'm done on this topic.

CDu
02-16-2013, 12:15 PM
Yeah, okay, though that doesn't mean it was somehow a 1-1 tie.

Duke won the game and Mason won the matchup.

I'm done on this topic.

I didn't say it was a 1-1 tie. I just disagree with the assessment that McAdoo didn't outplay Mason in the first half. He did. And thus, the critiques of Mason at the half (and even early into the second half) were justified. At that point in the game, Mason was getting outplayed by an inferior player.

But Mason thoroughly outplayed McAdoo from about the 18 minute mark on in the second half. Completely dominated the matchup from then on. And thus, overall, he won the matchup.

There are two entirely separate points:
1. In the first half, Mason was outplayed by McAdoo.
2. For the game in its entirity, Mason clearly outplayed McAdoo.

daveyro
02-19-2013, 11:17 AM
You're gonna throw your shoulder out patting yourself on the back for Roy playing a line up that you, and about the entire UNC fan base, has been wanting to see.

I never said this, "Wheat said I was way off base and that Roy was making all the right moves and playing all the right players and using a good rotation".

What I did say was the players were not executing.

I never "flip flopped" and said "...that Roy played the exact right players last night and it almost worked".

When you call me out in the future, all I ask is that you quote me accurately and not what you think you hear.

As for this Mason debate....

Mason is a very good and powerful college player. He's a stud athlete with experience now. But being the best of a mediocre bunch does not make a player great.

I have been critical of his post game. Especially his offensive development. It is not what it could be for a player like him, but of course that's my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

But you know what, has anyone noticed I don't sing the praises of any post player in college this year? There are some pretty good ones, when they decide to stay in the post...Zeller, Len, Withey....to name a few, but nobody stands out as a game changing center in the college game this season.

I see Mason as a successful NBA player. I see him playing a role much like Rodman played. He's gonna be a really good rebounder, and a strong defender inside. When he scores it will be put backs and transition dunks. No coach is going to run a play for him to get his shot off. There will be four better options on the floor.

There is nothing meant to be bad about that judgement, he's going to make a ton of money and be a great teammate for some NBA team. It just is what it is, and my opinion.

I love the guy. I'll say it again to keep the buzzards away. I love his heart, energy, willingness to play out of position. But not a POY or a likely dominant Pro.

He is 59th is scoring in MBB Div 1, with one of the lowest free throw % among the group (yes, I know some of players are in weak conferences, but by no means all). No jump shot. Good point by Saratoga about defenders sagging off in the pro's. And this is a 4 year player, not a 1 -2 and done guy. By now he should have more skills. Great players excel when a key guy goes down (i.e Grant Hill playing point guard for half a season). I think laying the blame for Mason's gaps on the absence of Ryan Kelly is cutting MP2 a bit of a break.


http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints

and if you look at the past 20 years of POY's, generally better stats and fuller games. and aside from a few clams (Jimmer Freddette & Andrew Bogut,for example), POY contains some big time names over the past 20 years

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/ap_poy.html.

"hero worship creates faulty vision" Robert E Lee

Kedsy
02-19-2013, 11:53 AM
He is 59th is scoring in MBB Div 1, with one of the lowest free throw % among the group (yes, I know some of players are in weak conferences, but by no means all). No jump shot. Good point by Saratoga about defenders sagging off in the pro's. And this is a 4 year player, not a 1 -2 and done guy. By now he should have more skills. Great players excel when a key guy goes down (i.e Grant Hill playing point guard for half a season). I think laying the blame for Mason's gaps on the absence of Ryan Kelly is cutting MP2 a bit of a break.

Comparing Mason to past POYs seems to me to be much less helpful than comparing him to other contenders this year. In the 10 games since Ryan went down, Mason has averaged 17.6 ppg and 9.0 rpg, on 56.8% shooting, including the poor performance against Maryland. Trey Burke has averaged 19.2 ppg, 6.3 apg, and 3.4 rpg, on 42.9% shooting (39.0% from three), although he scored 29 points in his last game so it skews the comparison a little (not counting their last game, Mason averaged 19.1 ppg in the 9 games before that and Burke averaged 18.1). In his last 10 games, Cody Zeller averaged 16.6 ppg and 8.9 rpg on 54.5% shooting, so similar to Mason but not as good. He also had consecutive games where he scored 2 points on 0 for 4 shooting and 9 points on 2 for 7 shooting, so it's not like putting up a bad line or two is unique to Mason here. Seems to me, Mason still ought to be in the NPOY discussion.