PDA

View Full Version : Nerlens Noel tears ACL; done for year



dukelifer
02-12-2013, 09:19 PM
Another bad knee injury. Hate to see this happen to a kid.

dukedoc
02-12-2013, 09:26 PM
Really really terrible. Prayers for the young man.

uh_no
02-12-2013, 09:28 PM
Another bad knee injury. Hate to see this happen to a kid.

best of luck to him, hate to see anyone get hurt


but GTH kentucky and calipari.

ChrisP
02-12-2013, 09:31 PM
Just saw this news on the crawl during the UM-Mich St game. They also said that Noel is projected as the No. 1 pick in the next draft. Really? I know he leads the nation in blocks but...No. 1 overall? Really?

I know the NBA draft is often about "potential" or "upside" but...man, that's not the way it works for most of us in the real world. What happened to being rewarded after you've proven yourself?

SupaDave
02-12-2013, 09:38 PM
Just saw this news on the crawl during the UM-Mich St game. They also said that Noel is projected as the No. 1 pick in the next draft. Really? I know he leads the nation in blocks but...No. 1 overall? Really?

I know the NBA draft is often about "potential" or "upside" but...man, that's not the way it works for most of us in the real world. What happened to being rewarded after you've proven yourself?

Well he may have just turned into Greg Oden...

vick
02-12-2013, 09:43 PM
I know the NBA draft is often about "potential" or "upside" but...man, that's not the way it works for most of us in the real world. What happened to being rewarded after you've proven yourself?

If a player way outperforms his rookie contract but suffers a serious injury at the end, are the owners are going to sign him to a big contract anyway to "reward" him? Of course not, so why shouldn't a player's contract be based on what a team thinks he's going to do for them (i.e., "potential")?

On Noel, apparently he left on a wheelchair, which does not sound good to me, though I know very little about these things. Tough blow, I really like watching him play, hope it's not as serious as I fear.

wavedukefan70s
02-12-2013, 11:17 PM
You guys and gals have to see this picture.it just makes your stomach turn.i didn't see his knee bend like it is on espn. I hope it isn't as bad as it looks.

http://twitpic.com/c38ga5


Sent from my iPad

throatybeard
02-12-2013, 11:26 PM
I want to state that I wasn't trying to be funny by re-naming this thread the "Nerlens Noel knee vigil." That stuff looks baaaaad. I wanted to extend to him the courtesy we offer our own injured players. I mean, damn.

wavedukefan70s
02-12-2013, 11:46 PM
I wasn't implying anything in my post.if it read that way it was inadvertent.

Durham Thunder
02-12-2013, 11:48 PM
Who knows what happened to Noel's knee. As much as I detest the bus-stop approach some kids take to college ball, he shouldn't have to have a career-threatening consequence.

mdj
02-12-2013, 11:55 PM
I know the NBA draft is often about "potential" or "upside" but...man, that's not the way it works for most of us in the real world. What happened to being rewarded after you've proven yourself?

We all get paid on the present value we have for our employers. Just that most of us don't have a ton of upside in the immediate future and very few of us sign 3 year contracts upon graduation.

Ian
02-13-2013, 12:12 AM
Early word is that he has a torn patellar tendon.

Saratoga2
02-13-2013, 05:32 AM
Early word is that he has a torn patellar tendon.

If that is so he is out for the season and will need to have surgery and start the rehab process. Tough luck for him but these kids all face this possibility, the difference is he has more potential than most.

niveklaen
02-13-2013, 05:52 AM
I hope he got the insurance.

This is why the one and done rule is a travesty.

wilko
02-13-2013, 07:24 AM
Jeebus.
I thought it hurt when I dislocated my pinky finger this past Saturday..
That type of goal support seems to be an ever present danger fr this type of thing.

moonpie23
02-13-2013, 07:42 AM
this kind of injury could be a very long term situation for him.. :( i hope he got the insurance as well...


hate hate hate when a player gets injured........

AtlDuke72
02-13-2013, 08:05 AM
I want to state that I wasn't trying to be funny by re-naming this thread the "Nerlens Noel knee vigil." That stuff looks baaaaad. I wanted to extend to him the courtesy we offer our own injured players. I mean, damn.

I suggest that it is time to stop using "Vigil" in any of the threads. I suppose it meant something at one time but enough is enough.

BlueDevilinNYC
02-13-2013, 08:12 AM
Jeebus.
I thought it hurt when I dislocated my pinky finger this past Saturday..
That type of goal support seems to be an ever present danger fr this type of thing.

Agreed 100%. I hear stadiums that have the baskets hanging from the ceiling are all the rage right now...

UrinalCake
02-13-2013, 08:14 AM
I hope he got the insurance.

This is why the one and done rule is a travesty.

There's been discussion lately about a football player (i think his name is Clowney) who may sit out his junior year since he's already projected to be a high pick and so he could choose to sit out, hire an agent and a professional training staff, and spend the year prepAring himself for the NFL rather than playing another year in college and risking injury.

It doesn't sound like he'll choose to do that, but I hope that this injury to Noel doesn't scare kids into doing something similar. If a guy is a top-3 type talent coming out if high school (in basketball), and knows he'll be drafted, he could choose to simply sit out, which would be a real shame. And I agree that Noel is a perfect example of why the one-and-done rule is unfair and should be done away with.

moonpie23
02-13-2013, 08:35 AM
are you saying he's going to sit out AND use his scholly?

wavedukefan70s
02-13-2013, 08:39 AM
There's been discussion lately about a football player (i think his name is Clowney) who may sit out his junior year since he's already projected to be a high pick and so he could choose to sit out, hire an agent and a professional training staff, and spend the year prepAring himself for the NFL rather than playing another year in college and risking injury.

It doesn't sound like he'll choose to do that, but I hope that this injury to Noel doesn't scare kids into doing something similar. If a guy is a top-3 type talent coming out if high school (in basketball), and knows he'll be drafted, he could choose to simply sit out, which would be a real shame. And I agree that Noel is a perfect example of why the one-and-done rule is unfair and should be done away with.

Yeah it was clowney.kids a beast.i think it was a knee jerk reaction to his team mate lattimore(who is a outstanding young man) .who had injured both knees in back to back seasons.

patentgeek
02-13-2013, 08:47 AM
Jeebus.
I thought it hurt when I dislocated my pinky finger this past Saturday..
That type of goal support seems to be an ever present danger fr this type of thing.

There was a similar discussion on some Butler message boards when Rotnei Clarke was hurt earlier this year crashing headfirst into a goal support - he was very lucky to suffer only a sprained neck.

gus
02-13-2013, 08:53 AM
I hope he got the insurance.

This is why the one and done rule is a travesty.

Are you saying that preventing players from going directly to the NBA from high school is a travesty?

If so, and the argument is that a this injury is costing Noel... the easy counter argument is Shaun Livingston, whose body, (per trainers and docs cited in the recently posted article) would have been more able to survive the rigors of the NBA had he spent a year or two in college building strength. I don't see that it's at all likely that Noel straight to the NBA would have protected him from this risk.

If you mean, intentionally recruiting to force players out after a year or two, so that someone like Noel would have no backup plan in the case of catastrophic injury, well, then I agree.

toooskies
02-13-2013, 08:53 AM
There's been discussion lately about a football player (i think his name is Clowney) who may sit out his junior year since he's already projected to be a high pick and so he could choose to sit out, hire an agent and a professional training staff, and spend the year prepAring himself for the NFL rather than playing another year in college and risking injury.

It doesn't sound like he'll choose to do that, but I hope that this injury to Noel doesn't scare kids into doing something similar. If a guy is a top-3 type talent coming out if high school (in basketball), and knows he'll be drafted, he could choose to simply sit out, which would be a real shame. And I agree that Noel is a perfect example of why the one-and-done rule is unfair and should be done away with.

There's nothing unfair about the NBA's rule-- they're a (somewhat) private enterprise, and that rule is in place after negotiation with its players' union. And besides, if there's not a one-and-done rule, but there is still a high school graduation (or age 18) requirement, have you improved the situation much? If you direct your anger at anyone for kids of that talent and marketability not getting rewarded while participating in a multi-billion dollar industry despite being of adult age, you should be upset at the NCAA.

Dev11
02-13-2013, 09:46 AM
are you saying he's going to sit out AND use his scholly?

No, the idea would be that he would hire an agent who would arrange for everything until the draft next year, including training facilities and endorsements. Whether he stays in Columbia would be a minor matter, and he certainly wouldn't be a student athlete at SC.

I heard Mike and Mike discussing it yesterday, and the argument from Greenberg was basically that Clowney is risking millions by playing this year because he will be a top three pick next year if he is healthy. Golic countered by pointing out that football players play football, and that it would be a serious negative mark on his character to sit out.

While I agree with Greenberg that there is inherent risk, and if you've seen Clowney you know the guy is just a monster, Golic's point ultimately rings home for anybody who has competed on such a high level as in SEC football. The young man wants to play football, and if he garners him millions down the road, all the better.

That said, it is a shame that he can't ply his craft professionally when the 'experts' agree that he would be a top three pick this year. How, then, can you let one kid forego his third year but force the others to stay? Teams can't help but draft the kids with great potential (see the basketball lottery), so it's protection for themselves. I understand it, and it's a shame that it only harms the most talented athletes who have to wait to enter the professional leagues.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-13-2013, 09:50 AM
Are you saying that preventing players from going directly to the NBA from high school is a travesty?

If so, and the argument is that a this injury is costing Noel... the easy counter argument is Shaun Livingston, whose body, (per trainers and docs cited in the recently posted article) would have been more able to survive the rigors of the NBA had he spent a year or two in college building strength. I don't see that it's at all likely that Noel straight to the NBA would have protected him from this risk.

If you mean, intentionally recruiting to force players out after a year or two, so that someone like Noel would have no backup plan in the case of catastrophic injury, well, then I agree.

I read that Shaun Livingston piece and the one thing that still sticks in my mind is they said there was nothing he could've done to prevent his injury. Maybe so, but I look at Livingston who is 6'7 170lbs and Nerlens Noel who is 6'10 225lbs and I can't help but wonder if they would spend more time building their surrounding muscles (quad, hamstrings, calf) it wouldn't take some pressure off of the knee in those situations where they are mid air coming down on one leg. I just think some guys are going to be more injury prone because of their style of play and physique. It doesn't matter if its in college or the NBA, the risk will be there.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-13-2013, 10:00 AM
I feel badly for Nerlens, I really do.

However, if anyone has seen the injury Shaun Livingston suffered 7 years ago they will know Nerlens Noel will play basketball again at a high level. I highly doubt Nerlens suffered a torn ACL, MCL, PCL, and meniscus while dislocating his tibia-femoral joint and patellar tendon. I do hope though it is something that will not make his draft stock suffer.

Chicken Little
02-13-2013, 10:20 AM
As long as everyone wants to play the "what if?" game, what if guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Martell Webster, etc. had been forced to spend a year in college? They either would have dominated and improved their stock(like Anthony Davis did last year), or they'd have a wake-up call before getting in over their heads and have a chance to improve. A guy like CJ Leslie immediately comes to mind as someone with a lot of hype who could have gotten swept up in the speculation game and eaten alive by the NBA. This is obviously a complicated issue, and one mired in the business side of basketball, but when declarative statements like "...Noel's presence on campus represents restraint of trade and a bastardization of what college is supposed to be." are put forward in the Yahoo article linked on the main page, it boils my blood. Oh, what a surprise, the article was written by Pat Forde.

Dev11
02-13-2013, 11:15 AM
As long as everyone wants to play the "what if?" game, what if guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Martell Webster, etc. had been forced to spend a year in college? They either would have dominated and improved their stock(like Anthony Davis did last year), or they'd have a wake-up call before getting in over their heads and have a chance to improve. A guy like CJ Leslie immediately comes to mind as someone with a lot of hype who could have gotten swept up in the speculation game and eaten alive by the NBA. This is obviously a complicated issue, and one mired in the business side of basketball, but when declarative statements like "...Noel's presence on campus represents restraint of trade and a bastardization of what college is supposed to be." are put forward in the Yahoo article linked on the main page, it boils my blood. Oh, what a surprise, the article was written by Pat Forde.

I realize that some kids would be helped by going to college, but ultimately, those guys were free to do make their career choices once they were 18. It is up to the teams that draft them to realize in interviews that the kids aren't ready.

tommy
02-13-2013, 11:47 AM
I suggest that it is time to stop using "Vigil" in any of the threads. I suppose it meant something at one time but enough is enough.

A giant "amen" to that. It stopped being funny, creative, or cute a looooooooong time ago. Please make it stop, somebody.

Bluedog
02-13-2013, 11:54 AM
I suggest that it is time to stop using "Vigil" in any of the threads. I suppose it meant something at one time but enough is enough.


A giant "amen" to that. It stopped being funny, creative, or cute a looooooooong time ago. Please make it stop, somebody.

I third this. Whenever I see it, it just reminds me of the agony behind the unknown surrounding Kyrie's injury and conjures up bad memories. I'd rather not be reminded of that event constantly. I think we need a poll - I'd imagine most people prefer not everything being named "Vigil," but I could be wrong.

wilko
02-13-2013, 12:55 PM
Just read on twitter from multiple sources: They say UK made a statement - Noel is done for the year. Torn ACL. I wish him luck.

Turtleboy
02-13-2013, 12:56 PM
Looks like it's an ACL. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1527206-nerlens-noel-injury-updates-on-kentucky-stars-knee?hpt=hp_t3)

CDu
02-13-2013, 01:13 PM
Just read on twitter from multiple sources: They say UK made a statement - Noel is done for the year. Torn ACL. I wish him luck.

Tough break for him and for UK (though they likely weren't going anywhere this year anyway). With a torn ACL, he's likely to not be back until around Dec 2013/Jan 2014. That means he'll miss all of summer league, all of the preseason, and part of the regular season (assuming he goes pro). That's sure to hurt his draft stock as I can't imagine a team using a #1 pick on him knowing he'll miss that much time.

Dev11
02-13-2013, 01:23 PM
Tough break for him and for UK (though they likely weren't going anywhere this year anyway). With a torn ACL, he's likely to not be back until around Dec 2013/Jan 2014. That means he'll miss all of summer league, all of the preseason, and part of the regular season (assuming he goes pro). That's sure to hurt his draft stock as I can't imagine a team using a #1 pick on him knowing he'll miss that much time.

Now begins speculation about him coming back.

ACL tears suck. Just saying.

Cameron
02-13-2013, 01:45 PM
I third this. Whenever I see it, it just reminds me of the agony behind the unknown surrounding Kyrie's injury and conjures up bad memories. I'd rather not be reminded of that event constantly. I think we need a poll - I'd imagine most people prefer not everything being named "Vigil," but I could be wrong.

A big thanks to you and all of the posts prior to yours. These threads literally do make me sick. Literally. That is if a giant swell of disgust and hate in your heart constitutes as some form of ailment.

Please stop this. It really does summon horrific memories that I do not wish to revisit.

crimsonandblue
02-13-2013, 01:46 PM
Tough break for him and for UK (though they likely weren't going anywhere this year anyway). With a torn ACL, he's likely to not be back until around Dec 2013/Jan 2014. That means he'll miss all of summer league, all of the preseason, and part of the regular season (assuming he goes pro). That's sure to hurt his draft stock as I can't imagine a team using a #1 pick on him knowing he'll miss that much time.

I'm not saying it's routine, but Brandon Rush had ACL surgery on June 1 and was playing again by November and starting by December back in 2007. I'm sure they'll be cautious, but with as bad as this draft is, he still would likely go top 3.

MChambers
02-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Now begins speculation about him coming back.

ACL tears suck. Just saying.

They do. I had one myself, many years ago. Had surgery in high school, then reinjured it at Duke, and had another operation, by Frank Bassett.

I know that modern medicine has improved it's treatment of ACL tears, but its still a bad injury. Hope he has a strong recovery.

Billy Dat
02-13-2013, 02:12 PM
As long as everyone wants to play the "what if?" game, what if guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Martell Webster, etc. had been forced to spend a year in college? They either would have dominated and improved their stock(like Anthony Davis did last year), or they'd have a wake-up call before getting in over their heads and have a chance to improve. A guy like CJ Leslie immediately comes to mind as someone with a lot of hype who could have gotten swept up in the speculation game and eaten alive by the NBA. This is obviously a complicated issue, and one mired in the business side of basketball, but when declarative statements like "...Noel's presence on campus represents restraint of trade and a bastardization of what college is supposed to be." are put forward in the Yahoo article linked on the main page, it boils my blood. Oh, what a surprise, the article was written by Pat Forde.

We all know money may not be everything, but...

Player Career Earnings to Date
Eddy Curry $70MM
Kwame Brown $58MM
Martell Webster $26MM
Robert Swift $11.4MM

Even someone like Swift, who was out of the NBA within 5 years, earned as much as someone making $275,000 a year over a 40 year working career.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-13-2013, 02:27 PM
Now begins speculation about him coming back.

ACL tears suck. Just saying.

Yes they do. I am 3 weeks post op myself (second ACL surgery) but am doing quite well. Just got on the bike and will get in the pool by the end of the week. My first was my sophomore year of college and after doing an allograft, my doctor let me loose 4 months post op so summer league play is probably out of the question for him but Noel could be ready for training camp. Granted I ended up tearing it again (my current doctor said 4 months was too quick even with an allograft) but I blame myself for not sticking with rehab after he cleared me. I expect to be playing ball again by the end of the summer. ACL tears take a lot of patience and trust in your doctor and PT but he's young and if I was a GM, I would not be afraid to draft him.

Hey, look at Quinn! Do any of us watch him play and say "he's not 100%, he tore his ACL in high school"?

Kedsy
02-13-2013, 02:39 PM
Hey, look at Quinn! Do any of us watch him play and say "he's not 100%, he tore his ACL in high school"?

But didn't Quinn get injured his junior year of high school? If so, he wasn't back to full speed for more than two years. That could be an issue if you draft someone #1 and are only guaranteed to have him for three years before he's a restricted free agent.

Zephyrius
02-13-2013, 02:43 PM
Just saw this news on the crawl during the UM-Mich St game. They also said that Noel is projected as the No. 1 pick in the next draft. Really? I know he leads the nation in blocks but...No. 1 overall? Really?

I know the NBA draft is often about "potential" or "upside" but...man, that's not the way it works for most of us in the real world. What happened to being rewarded after you've proven yourself?

He is also leading his team in steals... just shows how much effort he puts into the entire game. and I'm pretty sure that type of fire helps his draft stock just as much as any of his potential upside given how raw he is at this point.

Kedsy
02-13-2013, 02:44 PM
Is Kentucky a bubble team now?

ChicagoCrazy84
02-13-2013, 02:51 PM
But didn't Quinn get injured his junior year of high school? If so, he wasn't back to full speed for more than two years. That could be an issue if you draft someone #1 and are only guaranteed to have him for three years before he's a restricted free agent.

I just read the archives and looks like he did not tear his ACL, it was just a meniscus tear his junior year which he came back from his senior year and averaged 20 PPG and 11 APG for Oak Hill. I think there was another knee injury he suffered the summer of 2011 before he got to campus that slowed him. Anyone remember?

Wander
02-13-2013, 02:52 PM
Is Kentucky a bubble team now?

If they start dropping games to the bad SEC teams, I think that will give the committee reason to really doubt them by taking the injury into account. But if they just beat the bad SEC teams and lose to the good SEC teams, that will leave them at 13-5 or 12-6 in the SEC and they will be completely fine. The next two games against Tennessee and Vanderbilt will be telling. Win both and I don't think UK fans will need to worry about getting in.

vick
02-13-2013, 02:52 PM
But didn't Quinn get injured his junior year of high school? If so, he wasn't back to full speed for more than two years. That could be an issue if you draft someone #1 and are only guaranteed to have him for three years before he's a restricted free agent.

I think Quinn's injury was late August (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/recruitinginsider/2010/08/quinn_cook_hurts_knee_could_mi.html) right before his senior year, which makes it hard to judge how long it took him to get back to full speed--if you assume it was right after the 2012 season ended, it'd be "only" about a year and a half, not more than two years.

Cameron
02-13-2013, 03:16 PM
Is Kentucky a bubble team now?

I think Kentucky was on the bubble even with Nerlens Noel. The Wildcats' 17-7 overall record looks shiny on the outside, but it has very little substance to it. Despite sporting a top 50 RPI itself, UK is 1-4 against the rest of the RPI top 50, with the sole victory coming against a mediocre Ole Miss team that is vastly overrated due to the "showmanship" of the poor man's J.J. Redick, Marshall Henderson, who more resembles The Professor from the And1 Mixtape Tour.

Kentucky must win at least 21 games in the regular season in order to position itself safely off the bubble prior to the SEC Tournament IMO. That means four more victories. And with only seven games left, including tilts at Tennessee, at Arkansas and at home with Florida and Missouri, I do not know how realistic that feat is. Games against Vandy, Mississippi State and Georgia are all winnable, but without Noel, games that are normally winnable for UK are thrown out the window. Most years a 20-win Kentucky team is firmly in the dance on name alone, but with as few quality wins as Kentucky has, I don't think 20-11 in the regular-season without at least one win in the SEC Tournament is going to cut it. And that might be generous.

hurleyfor3
02-13-2013, 03:28 PM
Well he may have just turned into Greg Oden...

I was thinking Sam Bowie.

And cbs ran a documentary on Sam Bowie just this last weekend. (Maybe it was a rerun, but it was the first time I saw it.)

hurleyfor3
02-13-2013, 03:32 PM
Re Vigils, I feel strongly they should apply only to Duke players or the program itself ("ACC Championship Vigil").

I think we did a Ty Lawson Toe Vigil once, but maybe I'm confusing Ty's toe with Kyrie's, and anyway it was meant to exhibit a self-awareness that's not clearly manifested here.

lotusland
02-13-2013, 04:00 PM
Re Vigils, I feel strongly they should apply only to Duke players or the program itself ("ACC Championship Vigil").

I think we did a Ty Lawson Toe Vigil once, but maybe I'm confusing Ty's toe with Kyrie's, and anyway it was meant to exhibit a self-awareness that's not clearly manifested here.

I think we should remain vigilant

ncexnyc
02-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Re Vigils, I feel strongly they should apply only to Duke players or the program itself ("ACC Championship Vigil").

I think we did a Ty Lawson Toe Vigil once, but maybe I'm confusing Ty's toe with Kyrie's, and anyway it was meant to exhibit a self-awareness that's not clearly manifested here.
Didn't we do one for KM's wrist as well?

Acymetric
02-13-2013, 04:36 PM
Didn't we do one for KM's wrist as well?

We do one for just about anything now...Curry is part of two "vigils" as we speak. I agree that the vigil thing has gotten a little played out. Maybe a good rule of thumb would be that if the original poster doesn't have vigil in the title it doesn't get changed to be a vigil by the moderators. Why would that change be necessary? To me, title changes should be reserved for correcting typos and providing clarity if the thread title is misleading, unclear, or inaccurate How many threads on the front page have vigil in the title at any given point this year?

Anyways, this is definitely tough news for Noel. Hopefully he is able to recover and have a long NBA career. As to him being a #1 pick, my first reaction is to think that he won't be #1, but then I think about who else it could be and I'm stumped.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 05:22 PM
There's nothing unfair about the NBA's rule-- they're a (somewhat) private enterprise, and that rule is in place after negotiation with its players' union. And besides, if there's not a one-and-done rule, but there is still a high school graduation (or age 18) requirement, have you improved the situation much? If you direct your anger at anyone for kids of that talent and marketability not getting rewarded while participating in a multi-billion dollar industry despite being of adult age, you should be upset at the NCAA.

This rule is absolutely unfair, under any common sense understanding of the principles that this country was founded on (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, the Bill of Rights, and general free-market principles of being against restraint of trade). I know we will hear from umpteen lawyers about why what the NBA owners and the NBPA have conspired to do is entirely legal under current US law-- to which I will quote (Judge Roy Bean, I think) "the Law is an Arse". There are all kinds of laws that we have allowed to spring up and proliferate in our society today that are patently unfair, and never should have been allowed, if anyone were paying heed to the original legal and economic principles that the founding fathers wanted for this country.

There is no way that guys like John Adams, et al. would have been in favor of the restraint-of-trade aspects of collective bargaining law-- and they would have had much stronger right-to-work protections in place for the Nerlens Noels of the world (and please, let's not go off on the slavery tangent discussion here), if they did recognize any collective bargaining rights. We saw what they thought of the British parliament deciding that if they wanted to buy tea, they had no choice but to accept British tea assessed with a unilaterally imposed tax-- this British Tea Act is not that dissimilar to telling some 18-year old person that they cannot be an actor of their own free-will in the marketplace, even if other counterparties (i.e.- NBA team owners) would like to hire them, but for being compelled to comply with this rule by the NBA Commissioner (who negotiated away this freedom/privilege, in bargaining with the NBPA)... if you want to negotiate a tea purchase from someone else besides the British East India company, you ought to be allowed to do so, and if you want to negotiate a contract of your own free will, at age 18, with a willing NBA owner counter-party, you ought to be allowed to do that too.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 05:29 PM
I read that Shaun Livingston piece and the one thing that still sticks in my mind is they said there was nothing he could've done to prevent his injury. Maybe so, but I look at Livingston who is 6'7 170lbs and Nerlens Noel who is 6'10 225lbs and I can't help but wonder if they would spend more time building their surrounding muscles (quad, hamstrings, calf) it wouldn't take some pressure off of the knee in those situations where they are mid air coming down on one leg. I just think some guys are going to be more injury prone because of their style of play and physique. It doesn't matter if its in college or the NBA, the risk will be there.

Even if your surmise were correct (and I tend to doubt it is), it is simply not for you, or them, or the NCAA, or NBA commissioner, or the NBPA, to decide that Shaun Livingston can't take that opportunity, if he wants to-- especially if he's over age 18. Why are you not worrying about the 14-18 year old gymnasts, swimmers, and ice skaters that are out there busting their humps to make it to the Olympics (the highest level in their sport), and then cashing in after the Olympics (with bogus tours) to the maximum of their ability-- nobody mentions it, because it's what we're used to, and because nobody is trying to defend a status quo that financially benefits colleges and the NCAA.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 05:49 PM
As long as everyone wants to play the "what if?" game, what if guys like Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Martell Webster, etc. had been forced to spend a year in college? They either would have dominated and improved their stock(like Anthony Davis did last year), or they'd have a wake-up call before getting in over their heads and have a chance to improve. A guy like CJ Leslie immediately comes to mind as someone with a lot of hype who could have gotten swept up in the speculation game and eaten alive by the NBA. This is obviously a complicated issue, and one mired in the business side of basketball, but when declarative statements like "...Noel's presence on campus represents restraint of trade and a bastardization of what college is supposed to be." are put forward in the Yahoo article linked on the main page, it boils my blood. Oh, what a surprise, the article was written by Pat Forde.

What should make your blood boil is the restraint of trade that this rule entails-- you'd be furious, if you had had the potential to make millions in an academic pursuit, an artistic pursuit, an athletic pursuit-- or even picking up garbage for a living-- if someone tried to tell you that you couldn't do it-- you have to stay in school, and do it for a small fraction of what you could make in the free market. Why aren't you more concerned about Justin Bieber dropping out of HS to make tens of millions of dollars as a pop star, or Dakota Fanning focusing on making movies from early childhood, instead of going to school, like normal kids. Why aren't you upset about the female gymnasts from last summer who have focused most of their waking hours on the body-destroying pursuit of Olympic medals-- and the cash rewards that follow, if successful. IT IS NOT YOUR PLACE TO DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR CJ LESLIE-- it's his call, and he should be allowed to make it. And we all know that at the majority of the schools not named Duke, Stanford, or the Ivy League, very few of these guys are getting anything out of the educational opportunities on offer-- whether they stay one, two, three, four, five, or six (for Miami) years there.

I want to see a law that says all doctors must work at some low-level civil service salary, for 2 decades after they finish medical school, in some government-run health organization, in order to pay back society for the extra costs of educating those doctors in medical school, which is not recovered through tuition and fees... and while we're at it, I want all lawyers who graduate law school to have to put in 15 years in a public defender's or district attorney's office, so we can fully staff our legal system at much lower cost to our society (given how much lawyers, and their creative legal undertakings cost our society every year)... and let's make all engineers work for a government program, like NASA or NOAA or the FAA, for 10 years after they graduate, at at low civil service rate, to pay back society for the taxpayer subsidies to the engineering lab facilities at every major university in the country... and let's make every business school/finance major work for 10 years as a credit counselor to low-income families at a government advisory service, to help the US population avoid taking on excessive debt and making so many egregious mistakes with their family finances ... we'll see how many of you are in favor of restraint of trade, when these measures are instituted.

Wander
02-13-2013, 06:05 PM
I want to see a law that says all doctors must work at some low-level civil service salary, for 2 decades after they finish medical school, in some government-run health organization, in order to pay back society for the extra costs of educating those doctors in medical school, which is not recovered through tuition and fees... and while we're at it, I want all lawyers who graduate law school to have to put in 15 years in a public defender's or district attorney's office, so we can fully staff our legal system at much lower cost to our society (given how much lawyers, and their creative legal undertakings cost our society every year)... and let's make all engineers work for a government program, like NASA or NOAA or the FAA, for 10 years after they graduate, at at low civil service rate, to pay back society for the taxpayer subsidies to the engineering lab facilities at every major university in the country... and let's make every business school/finance major work for 10 years as a credit counselor to low-income families at a government advisory service, to help the US population avoid taking on excessive debt and making so many egregious mistakes with their family finances ... we'll see how many of you are in favor of restraint of trade, when these measures are instituted.

Doctors, lawyers, engineers, and scientists ARE all forced to go to college. I think your analogy supports the opposite point that you're trying to prove.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 06:11 PM
We all know money may not be everything, but...

Player Career Earnings to Date
Eddy Curry $70MM
Kwame Brown $58MM
Martell Webster $26MM
Robert Swift $11.4MM

Even someone like Swift, who was out of the NBA within 5 years, earned as much as someone making $275,000 a year over a 40 year working career.

Exactly!... and even if the numbers above were reduced to 1/100 or even 1/1000 of the above (which let's be honest, probably WILL be more representative of what each these guys will have to show for their respective NBA earnings, within only a few years of leaving the league), it still is not for any of us to say that they can't make that decision-- nor should it be the place of the NBA or the NBPA to say it, either.

Almost everyone who defends the status quo (or, Horrors, wants to increase the length of the required delay, before admission to the NBA is permitted) has a vested interest in something other than the best interest (or certainly, the free will) of the young players involved. The NCAA wants to retain the use of these players's services for very little cost; the college coaches want the same thing; the college students/alumni/fans want to watch these players play at their school for modest compensation; the NBA wants the colleges to continue to serve as a free minor-league training ground for them; the NBPA wants to prevent young non-members from taking the jobs prematurely, of their current members.

We all know that the vast majority of these players have zero interest in school, and will not partake of even a modicum of the educational opportunities available to them, while they are in college, whether they stay one year or six years-- so no one should be spouting these pious platitudes about getting an education, in case the NBA thing doesn't work out; the only time that thought ever occurs to these guys (and even then, rarely) is when they've already bombed out of the professional ranks.

Let's be honest, if the NCAA and the college coaches had their players' best interests at heart, they would allow the player to declare for the draft, go through the draft, find out they are not as wanted as they thought, and then re-establish amateur status, and return to college... just like the NCAA would allow transfers without sitting out a year of eligibility, if they really had the athletes' best interests in mind-- they don't make coaches sit out a year-- and they've got decades of eligibility-- why do they penalize athletes, who only have 4-5 years of eligibility? Nobody really cares about the players' academic success-- it's all a sham marketing campaign.

And while we're at it, stop pretending like the baseball and football systems are somehow "working", and the basketball system is the one that needs to be fixed-- every player should have the right to leave college at any time of his choosing, at any point in his college career, to go accept a pro contract, if some team wants to offer him... Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did not seem to feel compelled to finish college before dropping out to form companies, and make billions and billions of dollars each-- if Nerlens Noel wants to leave tomorrow, he should be allowed to do so. The only thing even close to being right with any of these major sports is baseball, where the kid can take the money right out of HS, if he wants, and the pro teams accept the responsibility of training their own future staff... and even that one is messed up, because they prevent freshmen and sophomores from leaving until after their junior year... and football is completely wrong with its current system.

tommy
02-13-2013, 06:12 PM
I want to see a law that says all doctors must work at some low-level civil service salary, for 2 decades after they finish medical school, in some government-run health organization, in order to pay back society for the extra costs of educating those doctors in medical school, which is not recovered through tuition and fees... and while we're at it, I want all lawyers who graduate law school to have to put in 15 years in a public defender's or district attorney's office, so we can fully staff our legal system at much lower cost to our society (given how much lawyers, and their creative legal undertakings cost our society every year)... and let's make all engineers work for a government program, like NASA or NOAA or the FAA, for 10 years after they graduate, at at low civil service rate, to pay back society for the taxpayer subsidies to the engineering lab facilities at every major university in the country... and let's make every business school/finance major work for 10 years as a credit counselor to low-income families at a government advisory service, to help the US population avoid taking on excessive debt and making so many egregious mistakes with their family finances ... we'll see how many of you are in favor of restraint of trade, when these measures are instituted.

This is clearly veering towards PPB territory, but unless and untils the mods delete it, I'll just say this: Sounds good to me. Change all those to 4 year hitches rather than 10 or 15, and I'm good with it. We'd have a much more fair and productive society.

Duvall
02-13-2013, 06:14 PM
Doctors, lawyers, engineers, and scientists ARE all forced to go to college. I think your analogy supports the opposite point that you're trying to prove.

Yeah, and doctors *actually are* required to work to work for a year at an artificially low salary in a public or community-oriented institution.

gus
02-13-2013, 06:22 PM
Let's be honest, if the NCAA ... had their players' best interests at heart...

I think we can all agree this is not really the case (I snipped, because I do think many coaches do).

Mudge
02-13-2013, 06:27 PM
Doctors, lawyers, engineers, and scientists ARE all forced to go to college. I think your analogy supports the opposite point that you're trying to prove.

No, they are not forced to go-- they choose to go because: 1)They know that they likely will not have the knowledge/professional expertise to pass the licensing requirements for their profession; and 2) They are prevented (at least in some jurisdictions) from even sitting for the bar, taking the medical licensing test, or the professional engineer certification, unless they have graduated from an accredited college for that profession; and 3) Hiring organizations in these professions are not generally interested/willing to hire individuals who have not been vetted through these standard channels of higher education.

If you could pass the law bar, pass the exam to get your medical license, or pass the professional engineer certification, you could (at least in some jurisdictions) work in these capacities, without actually going to college. There are people who study for (and pass) the bar on their own, without attending law school.

The above state of affairs is in direct contrast to what happens in the NBA-- where teams would love to do as they did with Kobe, LeBron, and Dwight Howard, and others, much more often-- and dispense with the "training ground" charade of college basketball, in favor of getting Greg Oden, or Nerlens Noel, or Derrick Rose, or Jabari Parker into their own training environment immediately- they have absolutely no desire to delay these players' entry into their organization, in order for them to get practical experience, training, or (Hah!) licensing or certification, before becoming an NBA player. My point is most emphatically proven by the desired economic actions of the players and the teams-- who would do away with the one-year delay rule, if given even half a chance.

Duvall
02-13-2013, 06:28 PM
I think we can all agree this is not really the case (I snipped, because I do think many coaches do).

But it's pretty irrelevant, because the NCAA has no control over this issue whatsoever.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 06:31 PM
But it's pretty irrelevant, because the NCAA has no control over this issue whatsoever.

The NCAA has control over something-- making people ineligible for further college play, simply because they declared for (and stayed in) the pro draft, to see where their real status falls-- that should have no bearing on whether a kid can come back-- let him sign a contract, and get paid, before they declare him ineligible.

The NCAA does not control the one-year delay program of the NBA-- that's the league and the PA that did that.

Wander
02-13-2013, 06:40 PM
No, they are not forced to go-- they choose to go because: 1)They know that they likely will not have the knowledge/professional expertise to pass the licensing requirements for their profession; and 2) They are prevented (at least in some jurisdictions) from even sitting for the bar, taking the medical licensing test, or the professional engineer certification, unless they have graduated from an accredited college for that profession; and 3) Hiring organizations in these professions are not generally interested/willing to hire individuals who have not been vetted through these standard channels of higher education.

Dude, you just described the exact same thing that happens in basketball. Seriously, it's remarkable how few words would need to be replaced in the above paragraph to make it applicable for basketball players.

Duvall
02-13-2013, 06:40 PM
The NCAA has control over something-- making people ineligible for further college play, simply because they declared for (and stayed in) the pro draft, to see where their real status falls-- that should have no bearing on whether a kid can come back-- let him sign a contract, and get paid, before they declare him ineligible.

Not sure what any of that has to do with Noel's situation.

tommy
02-13-2013, 06:48 PM
Let's be honest, if the NCAA and the college coaches had their players' best interests at heart, they would allow the player to declare for the draft, go through the draft, find out they are not as wanted as they thought, and then re-establish amateur status, and return to college...

I've been advocating this change, including on these boards, for years. It's really one of the only weapons the NCAA has against the NBA. In creating the one-and-done rule, it's obvious the NBA and the union don't have college basketball's, or the NCAA's best interests at heart (nor should they, really) so the NCAA shouldn't be concerned about ruffling the NBA's feathers by allowing kids to go through the draft and then return to school. The NCAA's attitude should be: that messes with your drafting and your ability to plan and construct rosters and manage a salary cap? Sorry, not our problem. NBA doesn't like it? Too bad. If you don't like it enough, then you'll sit down at a bargaining table and try to work something out we all can live with.

throatybeard
02-13-2013, 06:59 PM
So we're resolved. Once Nerlens' knee heals, he can go dump some tea in a harbor.

Mudge
02-13-2013, 07:02 PM
Dude, you just described the exact same thing that happens in basketball. Seriously, it's remarkable how few words would need to be replaced in the above paragraph to make it applicable for basketball players.

Actually, Not. Items #1 and #3 are often not true-- HS players absolutely would declare for the NBA draft, if not prevented from doing so (as they often do not concede that they are not good enough, yet, even when they aren't)... and for those players who already have the requisite skills (or in the NBA, the requisite potential-- skill and expertise isn't necessarily required-- it would be like a law firm being willing to hire whomever scored the highest on the LSAT), the NBA teams, left to their own devices, would like to hire them, and dispense with the college charade.

Hospitals and law firms, on the other hand, have not shown a willingness to hire the person who scores the highest on the MCAT or LSAT, without attending medical or law school. I will say that I have seen tech firms willing to hire brilliant software engineers even without degrees-- because they don't have anything like the need for a PE-signoff on their code or devices.

The only part that is true (right now, at least) is item #2-- the NBA and NBPA have conspired to prevent players (who otherwise could and would be hired by NBA teams) from freely entering into contracts with those teams-- that is much like the restraint of trade aspects of requiring people to have graduated from an accredited law, medical, or engineering school, before being able to work in those professions-- something I have never been in favor of either: If you want to go see a witch doctor, a Chinese herbalist, an acupuncturist, or any other new-age flavor of the month kind of health practitioner, you ought to be allowed to do so, and they ought to be allowed to treat you without fear of being charged with (the crime of!) practicing medicine without a license... let the buyer beware.

-jk
02-13-2013, 07:51 PM
Let's please keep this on topic.

Thanks,

-jk

Chicken Little
02-13-2013, 08:08 PM
IT IS NOT YOUR PLACE TO DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR CJ LESLIE

...just like it isn't your place to decide what rules the NBA decides to impose on people they are paying millions of dollars. I'd be pretty pissed if I was an NBA owner who paid: Eddy Curry $70MM, Kwame Brown $58MM, Martell Webster $26MM or Robert Swift $11.4MM. The other professionals you discussed(Bieber, Fanning, female gymnasts) picked industries that didn't have rules in place to prevent their earnings, but they all did go through extensive auditions, any way you slice it. Nerlens Noel was somewhere around 12 years old when the NBA passed the age rule. He could have decided to put down a basketball and pick up volleyball. If his dream is to play in the NBA, he has to follow the rules of the NBA. I found some interesting points in the below article, even if it is clearly flawed.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/577206-the-nba-age-limit-does-it-work-tracking-the-first-class-restricted-by-the-cba

Agree to disagree, I suppose, but ultimately the NBA is going to do what they want.

flyingdutchdevil
02-14-2013, 09:30 AM
Noel is gone. He may not be the number 1 pick, but he will most certainly be a top 5. With medical science being what it is today, NBA teams will certainly take the risk. Plus, he's playing for an NBA D-League school. Playing in the NBA just makes sense next year!

jipops
02-14-2013, 09:35 AM
Noel is gone. He may not be the number 1 pick, but he will most certainly be a top 5. With medical science being what it is today, NBA teams will certainly take the risk. Plus, he's playing for an NBA D-League school. Playing in the NBA just makes sense next year!

Well I don't think anyone truly knows Nerlens' short term plans. I don't think Nerlens knows. He'll need information first. And there is no way to expect every athlete to come back as quickly and as well as Adrian Peterson did from his knee injury. What DBR does point out is that if he does come back for another year at UK, they will most likely be a very dominant team, potentially with talent superior to everyone.

flyingdutchdevil
02-14-2013, 09:43 AM
Well I don't think anyone truly knows Nerlens' short term plans. I don't think Nerlens knows. He'll need information first. And there is no way to expect every athlete to come back as quickly and as well as Adrian Peterson did from his knee injury. What DBR does point out is that if he does come back for another year at UK, they will most likely be a very dominant team, potentially with talent superior to everyone.

The way DBR phrased it, they assume that he's coming back. It's not an "if," it's a "when" in their minds (read the phrasing again). I'm assuming the opposite, for the following reasons:

1) It's Kentucky. Top ranked players go there mainly because they have an amazing track record of getting one-and-dones to the NBA (with high picks, no doubt)
2) Agree that not everyone can recover as quickly as AP, but torn ACLs are no longer as devistating to the long-term success of a player as they were 10 years ago. It's still a horrible injury that gets you out of playing for a year, but
3) He is averaging 10.5 points, 9.5 rebounds, and 4.4 blocks as a freshman! Those rebounding and blocking numbers are close to Anthony Davis's.
4) The NBA drafted Oden with the first pick, a very risky player with a long-term problem (one left significantly longer than the other). There are countless other examples, but one trend the NBA draft has shown is long-term potential. And even with this injury, Nerlen clearly has that.

weezie
02-14-2013, 02:15 PM
Noel is gone. He may not be the number 1 pick, but he will most certainly be a top 5. With medical science being what it is today, NBA teams will certainly take the risk. Plus, he's playing for an NBA D-League school. Playing in the NBA just makes sense next year!

For the orthopods here: in the case of a torn ACL, does a cadaver transplant heals better/faster than a repair, and is it becoming pretty standard care? And it looked like Noel tore the jeebus out of his?
Do patients take any immune suppressants or just regular antibiotics?

BD80
02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
If Noel stays, how does that affect Dakari Johnson, 6'10" 250 lb, #1 center (#11 overall) in the class of 2013? Committed to UK beginning of 2013, but unsigned.

There is already 7'0" 244lb freshman Willie Cauley-Stein on the UK roster that probably won't go pro.

Can't see Dakari being interested in competing for time as the back-up center behind the future #1 pick.

dukelifer
02-14-2013, 06:26 PM
If Noel stays, how does that affect Dakari Johnson, 6'10" 250 lb, #1 center (#11 overall) in the class of 2013? Committed to UK beginning of 2013, but unsigned.

There is already 7'0" 244lb freshman Willie Cauley-Stein on the UK roster that probably won't go pro.

Can't see Dakari being interested in competing for time as the back-up center behind the future #1 pick.

The sad part is that it does not matter. He just needs one or two big games and the GMs will see potential and draft. If KY wins it all, they will all get the pub regardless of the time they play. KY is simply a stop to the NBA- better than the development league because people come to watch you play.

Mudge
02-14-2013, 06:40 PM
...just like it isn't your place to decide what rules the NBA decides to impose on people they are paying millions of dollars. I'd be pretty pissed if I was an NBA owner who paid: Eddy Curry $70MM, Kwame Brown $58MM, Martell Webster $26MM or Robert Swift $11.4MM. The other professionals you discussed(Bieber, Fanning, female gymnasts) picked industries that didn't have rules in place to prevent their earnings, but they all did go through extensive auditions, any way you slice it. Nerlens Noel was somewhere around 12 years old when the NBA passed the age rule. He could have decided to put down a basketball and pick up volleyball. If his dream is to play in the NBA, he has to follow the rules of the NBA. I found some interesting points in the below article, even if it is clearly flawed.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/577206-the-nba-age-limit-does-it-work-tracking-the-first-class-restricted-by-the-cba

Agree to disagree, I suppose, but ultimately the NBA is going to do what they want.

The NBA isn't paying these guys millions-- Mark Cuban, Jerry Buss, etc., are paying them-- or deciding if they want to-- and the NBA is deciding whether they can do so, or not-- it's restraint of trade, and our legal system should not have evolved to the point that two parties that want to make a contract cannot do so, because two other third parties (the NBA Commissioner and the NBPA) decide they can't... I realize that these owners have agreed to abide by the rules of the NBA to participate in the league, so the legal waters get murkier here. (This all goes back to the question of whether sports teams are separate business entities or one unified business-- somehow, when one franchise gets in trouble, and goes bankrupt, as they frequently used to do, they are separate, but when they want to do something counter to the league's decision, they are judged part of a larger whole.)

As for being mad about paying those guys too much money for not much production-- that's your decision, you made it of your own free will, nobody held a gun to your head to enter that contract, and you've only yourself to blame... it's no different than making a bad stock purchase or paying too much guaranteed money to Mel Gibson or Arnold Schwarzenegger to appear in a movie that then flops... look yourself in the mirror.

I assume from your discussion of Nerlens Noel's decision that you then would have agreed that anyone who was in HS (or somewhat close to being able to enter the NBA) at the time of one-year delay rule should then have been able to say-- "this can't apply to me-- I have to be grandfathered on this rule." Certainly anyone playing in HS or AAU ball at that time could have been said to have "extensively auditioned".

Des Esseintes
02-15-2013, 01:25 AM
The NBA isn't paying these guys millions-- Mark Cuban, Jerry Buss, etc., are paying them-- or deciding if they want to-- and the NBA is deciding whether they can do so, or not-- it's restraint of trade, and our legal system should not have evolved to the point that two parties that want to make a contract cannot do so, because two other third parties (the NBA Commissioner and the NBPA) decide they can't... I realize that these owners have agreed to abide by the rules of the NBA to participate in the league, so the legal waters get murkier here. (This all goes back to the question of whether sports teams are separate business entities or one unified business-- somehow, when one franchise gets in trouble, and goes bankrupt, as they frequently used to do, they are separate, but when they want to do something counter to the league's decision, they are judged part of a larger whole.)

I think you might have buried the lede here. I guaran-effing-tee Cuban and Buss are overjoyed to have an extra year to assess the talent. Moreover, if THEY had their way, the age limit would likely be higher. The NBPA, whom you include among the blackhats for reasons unclear to me, is the one militating for a lower or nonexistent limit.

El_Diablo
02-15-2013, 08:01 AM
I think you might have buried the lede here. I guaran-effing-tee Cuban and Buss are overjoyed to have an extra year to assess the talent. Moreover, if THEY had their way, the age limit would likely be higher. The NBPA, whom you include among the blackhats for reasons unclear to me, is the one militating for a lower or nonexistent limit.

Agreed. Mudge seems to be under the mistaken impression that "the NBA" is separate from "the owners" and that this separate entity somehow came up with the one-year-rule on its own and imposed it on the owners against their will. Um, no. The NBA is the owners. The owners specifically negotiated for the one-year rule in the 2005 collective bargaining talks and gave up concessions to the players to get it. They even publicly took the position of wanting to extend it to 2 or 3 years in the last lockout, although I am pretty sure that was just a position taken to give away later as a concession to the players (since the one year approach seems to filter the pool of draft entrants pretty effectively already). But maybe the owners were willing to go to 2 years if the trade-off to the players was not too severe.

As for Noel's draft plans, no one really knows. But I would think that he won't slip too far, so if he planned on going before, then I have to believe he is still going to go. He may not be #1 overall (not that it was guaranteed anyway before the injury), but someone will take him in the top 10 (probably top 5) even if he is injured.

sagegrouse
02-15-2013, 08:31 AM
The NBA isn't paying these guys millions-- Mark Cuban, Jerry Buss, etc., are paying them-- or deciding if they want to-- and the NBA is deciding whether they can do so, or not-- it's restraint of trade, and our legal system should not have evolved to the point that two parties that want to make a contract cannot do so, because two other third parties (the NBA Commissioner and the NBPA) decide they can't... I realize that these owners have agreed to abide by the rules of the NBA to participate in the league, so the legal waters get murkier here. (This all goes back to the question of whether sports teams are separate business entities or one unified business-- somehow, when one franchise gets in trouble, and goes bankrupt, as they frequently used to do, they are separate, but when they want to do something counter to the league's decision, they are judged part of a larger whole.)

Lots of restraint of trade in the US that is not against the law. E.g., laws also prevent adults (18 and over) from buying and consuming alcoholic beverages.

Fact is, you have a Collective Bargaining Agreement that limits the participation of young men in the NBA until one year after their high school class graduates. Doesn't seem to me to be in violation of any of the antitrust acts that I have heard about.

sagegrouse

DukeAlumBS
02-15-2013, 10:49 AM
My friends,

Someone asked about the ACL itself and what is done. Noel is lucky. He will have a direct repair. He is very, very lucky to not have the "UNHAPPY TRIAD". Which is the ACL, and medial meniscus, and medial collateral ligament. Which I repeat, is very common in this type of injury. He will have a 6 month rest and players go to a normal life.
The sad story here, is he is one and done. I saw comments about age requirements, to go Pro. Which I found vague and not making sense to me.
I was 18 when I went into the service, some service are here I am sure. The age thing is no argument.

The problem is the one and done. The NCAA needs to change all of this.
They need to have a student sign a 4 year contract with the school they will play at. And will get full ride to play sport. A contract with school and lawyer should be there.
This way, he has 4 years of the sport, before playing the pro game, and his degree!

BTW I think an 18 yo can go direct to any pro game. They are fully developed by this time.

My dear friends,

Have nice day

Jimmy

jipops
02-15-2013, 12:29 PM
I guess it's a good thing Portland doesn't have a 1st round pick this year.

gus
02-15-2013, 12:41 PM
My friends,

Someone asked about the ACL itself and what is done. Noel is lucky. He will have a direct repair. He is very, very lucky to not have the "UNHAPPY TRIAD". Which is the ACL, and medial meniscus, and medial collateral ligament. Which I repeat, is very common in this type of injury. He will have a 6 month rest and players go to a normal life.
The sad story here, is he is one and done. I saw comments about age requirements, to go Pro. Which I found vague and not making sense to me.
I was 18 when I went into the service, some service are here I am sure. The age thing is no argument.

The problem is the one and done. The NCAA needs to change all of this.
They need to have a student sign a 4 year contract with the school they will play at. And will get full ride to play sport. A contract with school and lawyer should be there.
This way, he has 4 years of the sport, before playing the pro game, and his degree!

BTW I think an 18 yo can go direct to any pro game. They are fully developed by this time.

My dear friends,

Have nice day

Jimmy

Being ready for the military and being ready for the NBA are two totally different things.

How many 18 year olds are physically ready for the SEALs?

DukeAlumBS
02-15-2013, 01:14 PM
My friend,

Read my comment. I said to stay in college for 4 years playing basketball, and getting a "degree."
That may suffice. His injury is a very common injury, had nothing to do with his age, what have you.
That is my argument.To" stay in school 4 years!"
To stay in college and maybe they will be fit.
This is not an argument on a persons physical condition. I said, at this age, they are developed as an adult.
The military, seals has nothing to do with this ? I used the age for entry for service as an example.
I know, myself, what is required to be in extreme physical shape in the service, for those organizations!
A totally different situation.Trust me, a very different situation. Has no impact in this talk.

But, after playing college basketball after 4 years they will be fine.
I do not think it matters here.I think what matters here, is getting them a 4 year degree!
A person that age can enter service, or play college sports.
I think the one and done is a sad situation, has nothing to do with a persons conditioning!


Gentlemen

Have a nice day

hurleyfor3
02-15-2013, 01:35 PM
I guess it's a good thing Portland doesn't have a 1st round pick this year.

I suspect David Stern will award Portland the #1 overall pick for the express purpose of choosing Noel. You watch, that #1 envelope's gonna have a Trail Blazers logo in it.

DukeAlumBS
02-15-2013, 01:39 PM
My friends

It looks like he has an old injury.
From and old meniscus injury.
I hope he stays for 4 years!
Later,

Have nice day my friends

Chicken Little
02-15-2013, 04:04 PM
I assume from your discussion of Nerlens Noel's decision that you then would have agreed that anyone who was in HS (or somewhat close to being able to enter the NBA) at the time of one-year delay rule should then have been able to say-- "this can't apply to me-- I have to be grandfathered on this rule." Certainly anyone playing in HS or AAU ball at that time could have been said to have "extensively auditioned".

I certainly would have had more sympathy for someone in this situation, but think it still probably ultimately falls under a "tough cookies" category. The rules can ultimately be decided by the rule-makers. When I changed majors in college, the rules said I had to adopt the newest course catalog, rendering a lot of my previous credits useless...a very sympathetic "tough cookies" was issued to me on behalf of the University. I followed the rules and had to deal with it.

billy
02-15-2013, 05:13 PM
For the orthopods here: in the case of a torn ACL, does a cadaver transplant heals better/faster than a repair, and is it becoming pretty standard care? And it looked like Noel tore the jeebus out of his?
Do patients take any immune suppressants or just regular antibiotics?

The usual care for a high level athlete (collegiate or professional) is to use the patient's own tissue (or autograft). Recent studies show that allograft failure rates are much higher for younger patients, being as much as 4 times more likely to fail. For example, for a 14 year old, there is a 22% chance of failure with an allograft versus 6.6% with an autograft. The risk diminishes with age such that, by age 40, the risk of allograft failure is 2.6% and 0.6% for autograft, according to a recently published multi-center trial. Therefore, many surgeons choose to not use allograft below the age of 30 or so, some 40 or so.

A cadaver transplant (allograft) feels better sooner after surgery because there is no damage done to the patient's own tissue in order to obtain the "graft". The allograft, however, incorporates into/is converted to an ACL more slowly than an autograft. This can create problems when the knee feels good more quickly than with an autograft; but, the reconstructed ligament is actually weaker at any particular time after surgery than using a comparable autograft.

The reason that autografts are more painful is secondary to the benign intentional "damage" to the patella, patellar tendon, and tibia to harvest a bone-patellar tendon-bone (BPTB) graft or to 2 of the 5 hamstring tendons to harvest a hamstring graft. Larger incisions are utilized and the affected area, whether BPTB or hamstrings, has to heal from the harvest.

As far as BPTB versus hamstrings, it's pretty much dealer's choice. Most studies show minimal difference between the 2 graft types. Traditionally, BPTB was considered the "gold standard" and is still more frequently performed in "high level athletes" primarily because of that fact alone, despite minimal differences shown (so far) between the 2 graft types.

weezie
02-15-2013, 10:43 PM
Thanks billy, that was a very clear and educational explanation.
Much appreciated!

niveklaen
02-15-2013, 11:49 PM
The one and done rule is not a 'restraint of trade' like the english tea tax - restraints of trade are government actions.

Its an antitrust issue - where private actors get together and agree not to compete with each other - in this case, Cuban et all each individually hired 18yr old kids straight out of high school but their OPEC like collusion to promise each other to wait benefits each of them by allowing someone else to take on the expense of training their future employees (other bene's too, but do not want to ramble...).

Should individual adults be free to enter the workforce? seems like a yes...

Should individual adults be free to choose who they want to hire? seems like a yes...

both parties should be free, but people seem to want to strip that freedom from the adults who happen to own NBA teams...

...I happen to be one of those people who wants to strip the owner's freedom because I believe that antitrust law is vitale to maintaining the competition between producers that makes capitalism great - but we should not pretend that this is not taking away someone's freedom

El_Diablo
02-16-2013, 12:07 AM
The one and done rule is not a 'restraint of trade' like the english tea tax - restraints of trade are government actions.

Its an antitrust issue - where private actors get together and agree not to compete with each other - in this case, Cuban et all each individually hired 18yr old kids straight out of high school but their OPEC like collusion to promise each other to wait benefits each of them by allowing someone else to take on the expense of training their future employees (other bene's too, but do not want to ramble...).

Should individual adults be free to enter the workforce? seems like a yes...

Should individual adults be free to choose who they want to hire? seems like a yes...

both parties should be free, but people seem to want to strip that freedom from the adults who happen to own NBA teams...

...I happen to be one of those people who wants to strip the owner's freedom because I believe that antitrust law is vitale to maintaining the competition between producers that makes capitalism great - but we should not pretend that this is not taking away someone's freedom

This is getting off topic, but no, private activities can definitely constitute a restraint of trade. Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act regulates private activities and states, in relevant part:

"Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal."

The one-and-done rule is pretty clearly a restraint of trade. But there is a nonstatutory labor exemption to the US antitrust laws, which permits collective bargaining to occur without violating the Sherman Act, and which allows certain restraints of trade (such as this one).

niveklaen
02-16-2013, 12:34 AM
This is getting off topic, but no, private activities can definitely constitute a restraint of trade. Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act regulates private activities and states, in relevant part:

"Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal."

The one-and-done rule is pretty clearly a restraint of trade. But there is a nonstatutory labor exemption to the US antitrust laws, which permits collective bargaining to occur without violating the Sherman Act, and which allows certain restraints of trade (such as this one).

Conceded - I retract my restraint of trade position, and am left with 'this is antitrust, not tea party stuff'

-jk
02-16-2013, 07:27 AM
Folks, please keep this thread on topic and out of policy discussions.

Regards,

-jk

Bob Green
02-16-2013, 08:10 AM
Kentucky plays at Tennessee today at 1 pm on CBS in their first game without Nerlens Noel. It could be interesting to watch and see how Calipari adjusts to life without his primary big. Kentucky won the first meeting, 75-65, in Rupp Arena with Noel having a stat line of 12 points, nine rebounds and six blocked shots.

Lunchab1es
02-16-2013, 01:53 PM
Kentucky plays at Tennessee today at 1 pm on CBS in their first game without Nerlens Noel. It could be interesting to watch and see how Calipari adjusts to life without his primary big. Kentucky won the first meeting, 75-65, in Rupp Arena with Noel having a stat line of 12 points, nine rebounds and six blocked shots.

9:16 to go in the 2nd half, and UK is down 33 points... yikes.

throatybeard
02-16-2013, 11:40 PM
All these ACL tears are why I don't exercise other than walking around the neighborhood.

hurleyfor3
02-17-2013, 04:19 PM
All these ACL tears are why I don't exercise other than walking around the neighborhood.

Same here, although "walking" may include use of the low-friction, gravity-propelled devices and my "neighborhood" is bounded by the Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah borders and Interstate 25.