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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 62, BC 61 Post-Game Thread



Newton_14
02-10-2013, 07:04 PM
Whew! Discuss here.

pfrduke
02-10-2013, 07:05 PM
Whew indeed. Great to win a game when you play poorly.

TKG
02-10-2013, 07:05 PM
Lucky.

dchen09
02-10-2013, 07:05 PM
Refs deserve a loss more than anyone else. One thing to let them play through contact, another thing to ignore outright fouls.

duketaylor
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Avoided a loss, all that matters. As ugly as it was. Next>tarholes;)

Duvall
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Before anyone says anything, please recall that Miami had to survive a missed BC free throw to get a one-point win in Conte Forum.

CLW
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Easily the worst performance of the year (yes I saw the Miami game). Bad shot selection, turnovers and poor shooting effort. Thankfully, BC is just not a good basketball team. We will need a much better performance Wednesday night.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
That was like watching a hockey game.

mapei
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
I'm wondering why, after the handshakes, the teams stayed on the court and the students had their fists raised. BC ritual?

NSDukeFan
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Survive and advance?
At least Duke is the only top 5 team not to be upset this week.

weezie
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
mason!!!!

AtlBluRew
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
I had to "watch" via the ACC Network app game cast and the comments during the in-game thread, but it sure appeared to me that Mason was a true fighter, especially in the second half. Kudoes!

vick
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
Well, not pretty. But, seemingly everyone's choice for the nation's best team, Miami, also only won at BC by one about three weeks ago (without Reggie Johnson, though I don't think many people would say he's better than Kelly, so whatever). I'll live with it for a road game between State and UNC.

noworries
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
A win is a win...it better be a thousand times better on Wednesday night!
If there's anything positive to take away, the last minute and a half were exactly what needed to happen

TruBlu
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Was only able to listen on the radio. Sounded ugly. Hopefully we can chalk it up to the weird travel arrangements.

When time expired, Bob Harris said we were going to overtime. lol

arnie
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Easily the worst performance of the year (yes I saw the Miami game). Bad shot selection, turnovers and poor shooting effort. Thankfully, BC is just not a good basketball team. We will need a much better performance Wednesday night.

Don't understand why the coaching staff punished Amile - we could have used him in the 2nd half. BC deserved to win this game - not Duke.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Before anyone says anything, please recall that Miami had to survive a missed BC free throw to get a one-point win in Conte Forum.

A strange game but without Hairston's much maligned jump shot- Duke loses this game ;)

weezie
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
I'm wondering why, after the handshakes, the teams stayed on the court and the students had their fists raised. BC ritual?

Alma mater? And maybe K stayed as a sign of respect for effort? Or else it was some hymn?

TKG
02-10-2013, 07:08 PM
That was like watching a hockey game.



BC and the refs were channeling their Big East days.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:09 PM
Good news is that Duke will not be number 1 going into Wednesday

ynotme32
02-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Just win baby! doesn't matter by how much, just win.

Given the circumstances of the travel, the way we played the whole game, we could have easily give up late there in the game, but we showed some fire and didn't quit, nice job by MP to make 3 or 4 critical FT's.

CLW
02-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Don't understand why the coaching staff punished Amile - we could have used him in the 2nd half. BC deserved to win this game - not Duke.

he did not play well in the 1st half and i don't think amile or murphy saw the floor in the 2nd half (although i could be wrong).

NSDukeFan
02-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Good news is that Duke will not be number 1 going into Wednesday

Why wouldn't they and why would that be good news?

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 07:11 PM
I'm wondering why, after the handshakes, the teams stayed on the court and the students had their fists raised. BC ritual?

I'm not sure if its a BC ritual for the away team to stay on the court but I imagine that it was their alma mater so they were staying for that.

Also looked like Duke went to the other side so perhaps their was a Duke contingent there or a big benefactor of sorts.

pamtar
02-10-2013, 07:11 PM
We're down five? with 1:00 left and we pull it out thanks to QC and Mason. I'm sure we all have a lot of negative analysis to provide here, but the fact is - a win is a win is a win. I'm not saying it was pretty, or that it leaves a good taste in my mouth, but I'm damn happy we could fight through whatever was wrong with us tonight and escape alive.

On a positive note, that was the first time I've jumped out of my chair all season.

arnie
02-10-2013, 07:11 PM
A strange game but without Hairston's much maligned jump shot- Duke loses this game ;)

You mean without his one rebound Duke loses this game?

throatybeard
02-10-2013, 07:12 PM
We just won a game because Mason Plumlee managed to hit three of four late FTs. Write that down.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:12 PM
Why wouldn't they?
Close win against an unranked foe vs Indiana's impressive win against Ohio State. Indiana will go back

Saratoga2
02-10-2013, 07:12 PM
I couldn't watch the game but instead had to follow it on game tracker. That said, it was a real nail biter. I noticed that Seth's name didn't come up in the last few minutes. I assume they were covering him and also perhaps that he was tired and less effective. I also noticed that Rasheed had little mention in the last few minutes, except for missed shots.

Thanks to Mason and also to Quinn down the stretch to get us the win. Some people who watched it unfold need to give us all a description of what happened out there tonight. Obviously we came out very flat, probably understandable based on the trip up. Also our shooting was weak and Quinn, who is usually very solid with the ball had more turnovers than normal. BC seemed to be very aggressive and must have packed it in on Mason.

How do people feel about the 4 guard lineup going down the stretch?

Thanks to those that can give some insights on what happened tonight. Hard to see us as a #1 coming off this game.

OldSchool
02-10-2013, 07:12 PM
Mason made the game-winning shots at the foul line. Give that young man a ton of credit for turning around his foul shooting and demonstrating poise and confidence.

Quinn had a difficult game but he showed some toughness and maturity. A couple of times after a foul or turnover he hung his head, but for the most part he was "next play" and we needed him to be tough and aggressive at the end to pull this thing out.

g-money
02-10-2013, 07:12 PM
Well, I think I'll stop making halftime predictions now. We always get everyone's best shot. It wasn't pretty, but I like the character and toughness we showed tonight.

On the subject of toughness, I was happy to see Thornton get a little chippy as the game went on. They were pretty much playing thug ball, and TT showed we wouldn't be intimidated.

Duvall
02-10-2013, 07:13 PM
Why wouldn't they?

All things considered I can buy the argument that Indiana had a more impressive week than Duke. Illinois is a lot better than BC, and the difference between a last-second win and a last-second loss isn't *that* big.

OldPhiKap
02-10-2013, 07:13 PM
I'm wondering why, after the handshakes, the teams stayed on the court and the students had their fists raised. BC ritual?

Me, too. Our team was just standing on the court watching as well. Some sort of prayer or tribute related to the storm? Some BC ritual (assume I would have seen it before, though)?

Newton_14
02-10-2013, 07:15 PM
I'm wondering why, after the handshakes, the teams stayed on the court and the students had their fists raised. BC ritual?


Noticed that as well. It was coaches and players from both teams. Must be a normal post-game ritual for BC.

Classic trap game, mitigating circumstances with the snow impact to normal travel, leading to a broken routine and no shoot around, and as others have noted, Miami and NC State both narrowly avoided losses up there at full strength on normal routine/schedules. Big picture. It is never as simple as "Team A is great, Team B stinks so Team A wins easily". Just ask Kansas and Indiana from just this week.

I actually thought we were toast when they went up 5 with 2 minutes left, but Quinn pulled a Hurley and hit a dagger 3, then Mason stepped up big time at the free throw line.

The Master that is K doesn't often make mistakes, but I thought playing the line up of Mason and the shrimps played right into BC's hands. They are better at that style than we are as they play it every game. Really wish one of Amile or Josh would have been in at all times down the stretch.

But a win is a win. Always better to obtain teaching moments in a win than in a loss. Crank the plane and get the heck out of there before the refs can change their minds and call a late foul or something! :)

Go To Hell Carolina Go To Hell! 9F

OldSchool
02-10-2013, 07:15 PM
We just won a game because Mason Plumlee managed to hit three of four late FTs. Write that down.

And his body language said that he wanted to be at the line shooting those shots. He looked confident shooting them. Very impressive.

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 07:15 PM
Close win against an unranked foe vs Indiana's impressive win against Ohio State. Indiana will go back

Selective memory. You are forgetting about Duke's impressive win versus NC State while Indiana lost to Illinois. Not to mention, Duke already holds the impressive win against OSU.

I don't really get why it matters much and who cares that much but the voters don't have that short of a memory. Heck, I'm sure some already have it filled out and won't bother changing it.

In reality, Miami should be the #1 team based on recent performance but Duke might get it b/c of their whole resume. But come April, nobody cares who was #1 mid-February.

gofurman
02-10-2013, 07:15 PM
prior to game


my post:

"trap game! This has trap written all over it... between NC State and UNC... and all this snow crziness. Focus is needed by the players - BC may not be great but, well, neither is Wake and that was a 'survive' game. And that game was just a drive down the road. Consider we have won TWO road games this year I think. I am surprised how lightly people seem to take this. BC pushed Miami to a one point win at BC.
All road games are tough. this one even more so by the two games that border it. What are we on the road - 2 and 2? "

posts I couldnt fathom:

"On paper, we should be able to score almost at will tonight, as BC is very poor defensively and has no one that can contend with Mason down low. Given that Ryan Anderson is their only real scorer, I wonder if Clifford and/or Van Nest will see more minutes than usual tonight guarding Mason. That would give Anderson the much easier defensive assignment of guarding our 4's, thereby saving his energy for offense. "

*Has anyone been watching college bball this year?> every top team struggles on the road - especially this week. Given the snow delay, and between nc state and unc I just didnt understand why so many felt so confident about this game. Here is a stat: BC (at BC) is the only opponent in our league to challenge Miami. At home, eveyone is the real deal - just ask NC State about Clemson today or FSU about how they did at Wake this weekend...

Any win on the road is a good one. And no complaining about the refs - Duke got a lot of calls too - could have been a foul called on us on the last play honestly.

On to UNC - beat the evil people

NSDukeFan
02-10-2013, 07:15 PM
Close win against an unranked foe vs Indiana's impressive win against Ohio State. Indiana will go back

I would take the 2-0 vs. an impressive win and a loss.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-10-2013, 07:16 PM
The BC team has real talent. They're only a year or two away. However, they're all young. When they're on, they're on. But they're unsteady.

They were on tonight. Combine that with the weird travel times, and we were very lucky to win.

wtm001
02-10-2013, 07:17 PM
Indiana will go back

No way Indiana will be #1

roywhite
02-10-2013, 07:17 PM
Down 5 and not playing well, 2 minutes left, on the road....didn't look good for our guys.

Gutty effort; good job, Mason, on the free throw line.

Finally got a couple stops late after BC had been scoring nearly every possession for a while.

I'll take it.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:18 PM
Selective memory. You are forgetting about Duke's impressive win versus NC State while Indiana lost to Illinois. Not to mention, Duke already holds the impressive win against OSU.

I don't really get why it matters much and who cares that much but the voters don't have that short of a memory. Heck, I'm sure some already have it filled out and won't bother changing it.

In reality, Miami should be the #1 team based on recent performance but Duke might get it b/c of their whole resume. But come April, nobody cares who was #1 mid-February.

Not selective- you are your last game in college ball. I don't want Duke to be 1 now. Let another team deal with that.

Bluedog
02-10-2013, 07:18 PM
Well, that was heart attack city for me, but this game is HUGE with regards to being in good position for a #1 seed. The committee doesn't like to give the #1 nod to teams that have losses to teams 100+ in the RPI, and BC sits in around 150. Mason hitting 3 of 4 free throws was clutch; I was almost shaking myself, can't imagine shooting them under that much pressure. Although I thought he should have caught Quinn's pass while jumping up for the alley oop for the easy dunk rather than jump to catch and come back to the court before making his move - he's plenty athletic to make that play.

I thought BC fouling Mason with 25 seconds left was great for them and was mad when it happened, as we would have had the last shot of the game otherwise. But, our D stepped up on the last possession at least. Quinn with the clutch 3 late. Really chippy all around it seemed. While we definitely lose without Mason and he'd be my MOM, I think he still needs to improve decision making when he's double teamed. He split the two guys once or twice, which was nice, but also a lot of turnovers. Effective passing out of the double team will be key going forward, but need Sulaimon, Curry, et al to hit those open looks when Mason forces teams to stuff the paint. I wasn't too sure why we were going with the 4-guard lineup - I think it's because the refs were really letting them play, and Tyler gives you that "in your face" hard-nosed defender. Still would have liked to see more of Amile in the second half - seemed like a mismatch. At one point, Quinn was guarding their PF on a switch with four fouls, which is never going to end well (and Mason was late rotating back).

In any event, I'm glad we got the W. Coach K will certainly have things circled to work on between now and Wednesday, and hopefully we'll be fired up and hitting our shots vs UNC - because if we play like this, we'll lose. Don't look like the #1 team in the country although rankings don't mean anything anyways. But, yeah, victory! I'll take that outcome over the alternative for sure.

BlueDevilBaby
02-10-2013, 07:18 PM
Just win baby! doesn't matter by how much, just win.

Given the circumstances of the travel, the way we played the whole game, we could have easily give up late there in the game, but we showed some fire and didn't quit, nice job by MP to make 3 or 4 critical FT's.

Chalking up this close one up to travel too. Dont't know about you all but i am pooped after a plane ride. Guys fought hard through a tough situation. Win is a win!

1 24 90
02-10-2013, 07:18 PM
prior to game


my post:

"trap game! This has trap written all over it... between NC State and UNC... and all this snow crziness. Focus is needed by the players - BC may not be great but, well, neither is Wake and that was a 'survive' game. And that game was just a drive down the road. Consider we have won TWO road games this year I think. I am surprised how lightly people seem to take this. BC pushed Miami to a one point win at BC.
All road games are tough. this one even more so by the two games that border it. What are we on the road - 2 and 2? "

posts I couldnt fathom:

"On paper, we should be able to score almost at will tonight, as BC is very poor defensively and has no one that can contend with Mason down low. Given that Ryan Anderson is their only real scorer, I wonder if Clifford and/or Van Nest will see more minutes than usual tonight guarding Mason. That would give Anderson the much easier defensive assignment of guarding our 4's, thereby saving his energy for offense. "

*Has anyone been watching college bball this year?> every top team struggles on the road - especially this week. Given the snow delay, and between nc state and unc I just didnt understand why so many felt so confident about this game. Here is a stat: BC (at BC) is the only opponent in our league to challenge Miami. At home, eveyone is the real deal - just ask NC State about Clemson today or FSU about how they did at Wake this weekend...

Any win on the road is a good one. And no complaining about the refs - Duke got a lot of calls too - could have been a foul called on us on the last play honestly.

On to UNC - beat the evil people

Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.

Laura Keeley from the Raleigh paper said the team was standing there while they were playing the BC alma mater.

OldPhiKap
02-10-2013, 07:20 PM
Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.

Laura Keeley from the Raleigh paper said the team was standing there while they were playing the BC alma mater.

I think he undercut but was not intentional.

Why would we stay for their alma mater? Not disagreeing, just not sure why we would stay. Many schools play their alma mater after a game.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:21 PM
I would take the 2-0 vs. an impressive win and a loss.

Indiana lost on a fluke play and Duke won by coming back and surviving a missed shot. Those games go either way. Indiana has been more impressive but Miami is playing the best ball

Bluedog
02-10-2013, 07:21 PM
Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.

Laura Keeley from the Raleigh paper said the team was standing there while they were playing the BC alma mater.

When I looked at it, I thought Quinn was standing up pretty straight and the BC guy was jumping backwards, arching his back when there was a battle for the ball. I saw it that he was undercut from his own doing; not Quinn pushing him or moving to get underneath him.

TKG
02-10-2013, 07:22 PM
Indiana lost on a fluke play and Duke won by coming back and surviving a missed shot. Those games go either way. Indiana has been more impressive but Miami is playing the best ball


Quite frankly, having seen both teams play a number of times, I think Indiana is the better team; right now.

devildeac
02-10-2013, 07:23 PM
Survive and advance?
At least Duke is the only top 5 team not to be upset this week.

But I'd wager that the coaches are upset right now and on the looong flight home. Amazed we survived that one.

devildeac
02-10-2013, 07:25 PM
Good news is that Duke will not be number 1 going into Wednesday

Bob Green and I cast our phantom votes for Miami.

OldSchool
02-10-2013, 07:25 PM
Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.


Looked like Quinn moved into the scrum and then realized he was about to get squashed by the big guy falling on him and moved out of the way.

devildeac
02-10-2013, 07:26 PM
K just concluded his post-game presser with, "they took a tough shot, missed and we rebounded. God bless America." Seriously.

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 07:29 PM
People might harp on the rebound but they had a 16 foot wide open shot to win and missed. He also waited way too long to go. Had he gone earlier, Burr actually called it out on them ignoring any fouls by Cook or against Plumlee or anyone for that matter.

But if you want to examine every call, I don't think BC can say anything about the refs. They definitely seemed more physical and they shot more free throws.

Atldukie79
02-10-2013, 07:31 PM
I wondered if the refs were reviewing the monitor to confirm that the clock had indeed expired. One ref had indicated BC ball on the last play.

throatybeard
02-10-2013, 07:33 PM
I think he undercut but was not intentional..

That seemed to be the judgment of the announcers.

SCMatt33
02-10-2013, 07:33 PM
First, I have to say that this game had all of the makings of a trap. Duke hasn't had to fly to a game day of in two decades. BC has played deceptively well at home in conference play. On top of that, this game was sandwiched between a home revenge game against NC State and the home Carolina game. So you had the snow making this a possible letdown game physically and the schedule making this a possible letdown game mentally. Unfortunately, both of those letdowns happened. You could see the guys struggling physically. They had trouble getting open for shots, and when they did, they missed some chippies. I'm not sure what happened with Amile, but to win that game with a four guard lineup at the end was impressive.

As for players, you could see that Quinn Cook was really in this game mentally, but maybe too much as he seemed to press at times which led to some mistakes, but you have to give him a lot of credit for not getting down too much when things didn't go his way.

Mason played a man's game in the second half. In the first half, the tight D, double teams and loosely called game got to him, but he played through it in the second half and his aggression was one of the biggest reasons Duke won. They also say the true test for shooting free throws in when you're down two in the last minute. He passed that test. In the final minute of that game, the only time Duke really had the ball was 4 Plumlee free throws and he made 3 of them. I don't think anyone would have thought that possible before this year.

I also want to give Steve Donahue some credit for his game plan. A lot of teams try to take away Duke's shooters first, and if you watched the FSU and NC State games, it would be tempting to try it. He knew that Duke had a tough travel schedule, and knew he had big guys that could bother him with a double team and that plan almost worked.

OldPhiKap
02-10-2013, 07:34 PM
I wondered if the refs were reviewing the monitor to confirm that the clock had indeed expired. One ref had indicated BC ball on the last play.

That makes the most sense.

cptnflash
02-10-2013, 07:35 PM
Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.

There were probably several fouls during the scrum for the rebound, but Quinn absolutely fouled Anderson, and he knew it too - you could tell by the way he immediately pulled back with his hands in the "not guilty" position.

Doesn't matter though... bottom line is they missed an open look for the win. In a few days, no one will care that we were somewhat fortunate to win tonight.

roywhite
02-10-2013, 07:36 PM
I also want to give Steve Donahue some credit for his game plan. A lot of teams try to take away Duke's shooters first, and if you watched the FSU and NC State games, it would be tempting to try it. He knew that Duke had a tough travel schedule, and knew he had big guys that could bother him with a double team and that plan almost worked.

Yeah, I thought BC's offensive strategy was effective, too. They worked the clock down, used a lot of dribble penetration and ball screens, and got good quality shots. They've got some good young players and could be a force next year and beyond.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-10-2013, 07:37 PM
Don't understand why the coaching staff punished Amile - we could have used him in the 2nd half. BC deserved to win this game - not Duke.


I was surprised not to see Amile on the floor to end the game. Thought it was odd to go to a 4 guard lineup in a one-stop situation, but we got lucky. I didn't even think Amile had played that poorly. Maybe he missed some defensive assignments I didn't notice or missed a few chippees, but everyone did.

I wouldn't say BC deserved to win the game. They played hard but they shot 2-11 from 3's and turned the ball over just as much as we did. We were lucky to win for sure, but when you're up 5 with 2 minutes to play, you have to learn to close it out. They didn't.

diveonthefloor
02-10-2013, 07:38 PM
K just concluded his post-game presser with, "they took a tough shot, missed and we rebounded. God bless America." Seriously.

I Heard it, too. I took it differently, though. He was talking to Duke interviewer, not to the national press or the Boston press. And it was classic K tongue in cheek humor. No doubt he has had an exhausting day, and to survive with a win was, in his view "really cool."
He wasn't denigrating God or country.

Adukefan
02-10-2013, 07:39 PM
Not pretty but it was a win! Do not care if we are back at the #1 spot but hope we play much better Wednesday night!

DukieInBrasil
02-10-2013, 07:40 PM
Good news is that Duke will not be number 1 going into Wednesday

I agree, i don't think Duke is really deserving of #1. They played well vs. NCSU. Certainly didn't play well vs BC.
I'm hoping that Quinn and TT come out with a lot more heart and determination next time out. Quinn in particular has played really well in games following stinkers, i hope that continues.

mgtr
02-10-2013, 07:43 PM
If i had a vote (not very likely!) I would put Indiana and possibly Miami ahead of us. However, I don't think the rankings on Feb 11th have much meaning later on. I just want to beat UNC this week!

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 07:46 PM
I agree, i don't think Duke is really deserving of #1. They played well vs. NCSU. Certainly didn't play well vs BC.
I'm hoping that Quinn and TT come out with a lot more heart and determination next time out. Quinn in particular has played really well in games following stinkers, i hope that continues.

Heart was fine- just too many mistakes and too many missed shots near the rim. Credit BC for making it a football game and the refs for letting them do it.

Olympic Fan
02-10-2013, 07:47 PM
I';m not sure that this was a trap so much as the tendency of the bad tams in the ACC to be helpless on the road and so much tougher at home.

As others have noted, we've seen in with BC before -- they might be 1-4 at home, but those four losses include a one-point loss to Miami; a one-point loss to Duke; a five-point loss tp NC State (back when State was really playing well). and a fairly competitive 12-point loss top UNC. Then also have a 7-point win over Clemson

In five games on the road, they do have a surprisingly solid win at Virginia Tech, but they also have losses at Wake Forest, Virginia, Maryland and Miami.

Wake Forest is the same way -- they are 4-1 at home with a blowout victory over FSU, a narrow win over NC State and narrow wins over Virginia and BC. Their only home loss was a closwe loss to Duke, But they are 0-5 on the road and only a close loss at VPI has bee even close.

Clemson is also a different team at home 4-2 with that one-point loss to NC State and a loss to FSU in their ACC opener and 0-5 on the road. Only a four=-point loss at State and a seven-point loss at BC were even close. Georgia Tech has won three times at home ... they finally got a road win Saturday at VPI.

VPI is the one bad team that doesn't seem to be much different at home or on the road.

I'm happy to get out of BC with a win ... and I'm glad we don't have to play Clemson at Clemson or GTech at Gtech.

1 24 90
02-10-2013, 07:48 PM
There were probably several fouls during the scrum for the rebound, but Quinn absolutely fouled Anderson, and he knew it too - you could tell by the way he immediately pulled back with his hands in the "not guilty" position.

Doesn't matter though... bottom line is they missed an open look for the win. In a few days, no one will care that we were somewhat fortunate to win tonight.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I was just worried about it being dissected and harped on for the next 24 hours by all the "Duke gets all the calls" people. Oh well, next play. Go Duke!

cptnflash
02-10-2013, 07:48 PM
Especially proud of the guys for getting three straight stops to end the game. After BC took a 5 point lead with 2 minutes left, they never scored again. Our defense has been suspect ever since Ryan went down, but it was great to see the guys D up when it mattered most, especially in a road setting when they were probably exhausted from the combination of an early Sunday wakeup call, a long travel day, and a very physical basketball game. Great job, guys!

roywhite
02-10-2013, 07:49 PM
Duke 62 -- BC 61 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=206344577)

Quinn was 3-11 and his only makes were 3-pointers; as happens in his game sometimes, his lay-ups are just a little off, and rim out
Duke shot only 40.4% FG for the game
Hanlan and Anderson scored well for BC
After 9 turnovers the first half, Duke did a better job of handling the ball in the 2nd half
Mason was again the man with 38 minutes, 19 points, 10 rebounds, and the key free throws in the last minute

Duke76
02-10-2013, 07:51 PM
of intensity...they had some good players..Hamlin kid from Canada just a freshman and the Anderson kid as well as their other big men played well....Sully couldn't really get in the flow...Curry and Mason both played well....Cook got schooled by that kid from Canada a few times....sure do wish Mason could learn not to bring that ball down so much...really expend less energy if you just keep it up high and flick the wrists on shots around the basket...but he is a heck of an All- American...hope he can make it to Player of year....my gosh we need Kelly back.....nothing to else to say but Go To HELL Carolina

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 07:52 PM
Thanks to everyone for their input. I was just worried about it being dissected and harped on for the next 24 hours by all the "Duke gets all the calls" people. Oh well, next play. Go Duke!

If people believe this narrative, they must be very gullible. I'm learning to get better and not even say anything but to think that refs are predisposed to calling everything for Duke is comical. At home, they have an advantage like every team. Perhaps Duke's is greater at home but that would just be a reflection of their home court advantage.

If they really want to talk just show them this. http://www.scacchoops.com/FoulDifferential.asp?bConfOnly=1&season=

Duke is +6 FT's during the whole conference and gets .6 more fouls called per game. No surprise, UNC is still ahead of Duke in both advantages.

Saratoga2
02-10-2013, 07:55 PM
For those who didn't get to see the game, would someone go into a little more detail of what happened in both halves? Saying it is a trap game isn't very illuminating for instance. Saying they packed in on Mason and played him physically is more information.

Why didn't Seth take a shot going down the stretch? Was he being heavily guarded of was he tired out.

Why were we having so much trouble stopping their scoring near the end of the game. Was our defense breaking down?

Why was Quinn turning the ball over so much. Were they trapping him or doubling him or was it just lapses in his concentration?

Was Rasheed just missing open looks or was he being given pressure on his shots?

Would appreciate a little more detail in the descriptions.

DUKIE V(A)
02-10-2013, 07:59 PM
Tough win. The refs let a ton of hand-checking and pushing go throughout. Our guys gutted it out and found a way. Mason was bigtime. Also, the last shot was a tough one. It was not a stand still open jumper. It was a semi fall away from a strange angle after going full speed. Nice job by Sheed to take away the drive and avoid the foul. Not to mention the kid taking it is a freshman with the chance to beat the now likely No. 1. I will take an ugly win over a beautiful loss anyday. Looking forward to Wednesday.

uh_no
02-10-2013, 08:01 PM
Close win against an unranked foe vs Indiana's impressive win against Ohio State. Indiana will go back

indiana lost to their unranked opponent this week.....

Duke76
02-10-2013, 08:04 PM
For those who didn't get to see the game, would someone go into a little more detail of what happened in both halves? Saying it is a trap game isn't very illuminating for instance. Saying they packed in on Mason and played him physically is more information.

Why didn't Seth take a shot going down the stretch? Was he being heavily guarded of was he tired out.

Why were we having so much trouble stopping their scoring near the end of the game. Was our defense breaking down?

Why was Quinn turning the ball over so much. Were they trapping him or doubling him or was it just lapses in his concentration?

Was Rasheed just missing open looks or was he being given pressure on his shots?

Would appreciate a little more detail in the descriptions.

1. They did double Mason but what's new....they had it seemed 3 bigs on the floor for much of the 1st 15 minutes of the first half that I thought caused us trouble
2. Seth looked like he tired out but really they were denying him and Mason the ball...anybody but them to beat them
3. I don't like Quins one handed push passes...sometimes they get picked off like tonight...kinda lazy push passes...Tyler had son turn overs.
4. Rasheed I don't think took a shot in the first half and missed most of the ones he took in the second half...don't think though they really went to him much it was Curry and mason the offense was looking for
5. Our guys had to work hard on defense and I thought the Hamlen guy or whoever he was....the kid from Canada was really good at guard and could have won the game with that last shot...we had a tough time with him....I'll take it and say again Go to HELL Carolina

oakvillebluedevil
02-10-2013, 08:06 PM
I'll go out on a limb and say that was one of the most impressive wins for Duke this season. Few reasons here:

1. Exhaustion Team was looking tired at the end of an emotional game Thurs. vs. State. Fatigue then compounded by relatively short rest, not to mention flying day of and missing the normal routine. Also, this at a draining point in the season. And travel up to Boston isn't the shortest trip we make. You could tell we were dead but fought through it. Something to build on.

2. Style of play Playing Steve Donahue's teams looks like a miserable experience. They were tough, physical, and wore down the shot clock each possession, making it tough to get momentum going. Also their junk matchup zone (at least that's what it looked like) when Mason would get the ball was different than what I've seen this year. A tough, different defense that gets you uncomfortable and playing defense a full 30 seconds / possession? Not what I want to face when I'm exhausted.

3. Clutch FTs for Mason Needed them, hit them. Come March he'll know he's got it at the end of games. Could be huge.

I haven't been this encouraged by a performance in awhile. Now we can all sleep well with visions of 9F dancing in our heads.

78Devil
02-10-2013, 08:13 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

NYBri
02-10-2013, 08:13 PM
Next game. Heels on Wednesday.

diveonthefloor
02-10-2013, 08:16 PM
For those who didn't get to see the game, would someone go into a little more detail of what happened in both halves? Saying it is a trap game isn't very illuminating for instance. Saying they packed in on Mason and played him physically is more information.

Why didn't Seth take a shot going down the stretch? Was he being heavily guarded of was he tired out.

Why were we having so much trouble stopping their scoring near the end of the game. Was our defense breaking down?

Why was Quinn turning the ball over so much. Were they trapping him or doubling him or was it just lapses in his concentration?

Was Rasheed just missing open looks or was he being given pressure on his shots?

Would appreciate a little more detail in the descriptions.

Main things I took away:
1) We shot horribly. Missed a boatload of layups and bunnies. Didn't shoot well from outside either.
2) BC overplaying the passing lanes + lack of court awareness = Lots of first half turnovers.

rsvman
02-10-2013, 08:16 PM
Anybody else notice what Mason said right before his free throws? Looked to me like he said "I got this. "

Love it. The power of positive thinking.

Duke76
02-10-2013, 08:16 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

I'd have to say that BC is better...much better than their record. at least they played that way tonight

Duvall
02-10-2013, 08:18 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

I wouldn't say that *we* are spoiled.

It's a game of bounces played by teenagers. Yammering from our armchairs about killer instincts and intensity isn't going to change that. 21-2 speaks for itself, and even if you want to discount games played with Kelly they still have yet to lose a game that didn't involve a road trip against a top 30 opponent.

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 08:18 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

For one, this is a BC team who took Miami down to the wire and could have easily knocked them off. They showed up ready to play and Duke didn't.

But as far as Duke progressing, I'm not sure what else was to be expected. Duke lost one of their biggest keys to the offense. Think Kadji going down for the Canes or Hardaway Jr. for Michigan or Watford for IU. You don't just replace these guys. And the last couple games have been a bit of an aberration. Duke has shot remarkably well which hasn't really forced them to perform in the half court. Their half court offense is very limited to get easy baskets without Kelly. To be honest, I was surprised with how easy we won the last 2 games and expect more performances like tonight. Tonight was pretty bad but this team won't hit on all cylinders without Kelly.

Duke76
02-10-2013, 08:18 PM
Anybody else notice what Mason said right before his free throws? Looked to me like he said "I got this. "

Love it. The power of positive thinking.

I noticed that as well, couldn't tell what but he knocked them down except for one and they were confident shots....so that was great!! proud of him

Billy Dat
02-10-2013, 08:20 PM
I actually thought we were toast when they went up 5 with 2 minutes left, but Quinn pulled a Hurley and hit a dagger 3, then Mason stepped up big time at the free throw line....Crank the plane and get the heck out of there before the refs can change their minds and call a late foul or something! :)


Quinn's 3 was huge, and, as you say, very Hurley v Vegas. I just watched 'Argo' last night so the plane line is perfectly aligned.


We just won a game because Mason Plumlee managed to hit three of four late FTs. Write that down.

God Bless America.


K just concluded his post-game presser with, "they took a tough shot, missed and we rebounded. God bless America."

Who's more classic then K?


For those who didn't get to see the game, would someone go into a little more detail of what happened in both halves?

Putting it really simply, this was my take. First half - they set a really deliberate tempo and were playing really solid defense. We couldn't get any easy shots but were also missing some relatively easy ones. They were also getting loose balls and the ball was bouncing their way regardless. According to the sideline reporter, K was yelling at the team to "Wake up!!!" We looked like a team that flew up this morning but still managed to pull even on a Mason dunk at the buzzer, which was important. We looked better in the "second quarter" but our frustration on offense led to us trying to force it to Mason too much when he was being doubled and not enough guys were looking to stay aggressive on offense. The timing was always a second off, nothing was smooth and K was kind of juggling the line-up to try and find guys with energy. Second half - it looked like we were going to push the lead out to 6 or 8 and finish them off. But, they stayed within a possession, we'd go up 5 and have a chance to push it out and they'd make a play. I though our D was a little sluggish at times, but they also make you guard the full shot clock, kind of like a European team, and they scored a lot of buckets with less then 10 seconds on the shot clock. Then, weird stuff started to happen, like that guy Odio throwing down two monster dunks, or Anderson flushing it on Mason in traffic. When we pushed ahead by 6, I thought we were in control but they went on a 10-1 run that was hard to comprehend as it happened except to say that it felt like it was meant to be their night. Thornton took a bad 3, he threw a ball away, Sheed missed a few makable shots, and then our D was just breaking down and we were giving up layups. Curry couldn't shake free during those stretches.

We were fortunate to win, we kind of stole it out of nowhere in that final 2 mins.

OldPhiKap
02-10-2013, 08:21 PM
I'd have to say that BC is better...much better than their record. at least they played that way tonight

They have done themselves proud at home against top competition, including Miami.

We just played a tough game in Tallahassee, then against a Triangle rival who beat us, and then flew into a blizzard to plAy a tough road game prior to the Tar Heel game. Hit key free throws and grabbed key rebounds at win time.

Gutty win, GO TO HELL CAROLINA!

Les Grossman
02-10-2013, 08:22 PM
Someone asked upthread: How do people feel about the 4 guard lineup going down the stretch?


I thought K was forced to go that way tonight, because he just didn't get much all night out of the 4 spot--despite the fact that the 4 was often unguarded (doubling MP). May as well put someone else out there to see if they can make a basket.

diveonthefloor
02-10-2013, 08:24 PM
After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

I feel exactly the opposite. Their travel plans (and therefore practice schedules) were up in the air for most of the past 3 days. Logan opened up this morning allowing for them to fly at a weird time on game day (2 hour flight.) Difficult travel from Logan to Chestnut Hill. (These are really tall guys sitting in cramped environments when the should be getting loose and preparing mentally.) Virtually no time to settle in before gametime.

Chalk me up as one who figured they would probably lose this game just based on those factors. Not to mention that their most experienced 4-men are injured (RK and JH.) I was shocked to see them put Josh in the game.

K: "God Bless America."

Newton_14
02-10-2013, 08:24 PM
For those who didn't get to see the game, would someone go into a little more detail of what happened in both halves? Saying it is a trap game isn't very illuminating for instance. Saying they packed in on Mason and played him physically is more information.

Why didn't Seth take a shot going down the stretch? Was he being heavily guarded of was he tired out.

Why were we having so much trouble stopping their scoring near the end of the game. Was our defense breaking down?

Why was Quinn turning the ball over so much. Were they trapping him or doubling him or was it just lapses in his concentration?

Was Rasheed just missing open looks or was he being given pressure on his shots?

Would appreciate a little more detail in the descriptions.

I will give it a shot.

First, we came out flat on offense, and took forever just to get to 10 points. BC had a slow start on offense as well but managed to get to an 8 point lead anyway. BC spread the court ran multiple cuts and high ball screens all game, running lots of clock before shooting. Their guards were a step quicker than our guards the entire night and they use it to turn Duke over 9 times in the first half.

When we had the ball, BC was doubling Mason immediately, and also bringing a 3rd defender right to the middle of the lane. W/o Ryan we still do not space very well against scheme's like that. When Mason kicked it out, BC closed quickly on the shooters and we were cold. We played behind most of the 1st half before Seth and Mason got it going and brought us back to take the lead. Amile, Josh, and Murphy all got time at the 4, and none of them did much on offense, and all had trouble with all the cutting going on by the smaller BC guys.

In the second half, K went with Josh for the most part. We started out fairly hot and got out to a 5 or 6 point lead, but just could not put them away. Between the 12 and 8 minute TO's BC surged a bit, and we got tentative. Our guys started tiring it seemed and BC seemed as quick as they were at the start. They got two energy plays off dunks from the same kid. First was a blow by then dish. Mason fouled trying to stop the dunk. Next came a blown inbounds defense where they lobbed to the same kid and he dunked again.

We looked rattled, and K had gone to the 4 guard line up which only made it worse to me. We went 4 minutes without a FG from the 6 minute mark to the 2 minute mark and BC ran out to a 5 point lead scoring on 6 straight possessions.

But then Quinn hit a corner 3 to cut it to 2 with under 2 minutes. We got a stop. Then Quinn lobbed to Mason but he was a tad too far out and brought it down. Got mugged. Made both. Tie game. We got another stop. Mason rebounded and got mugged. Made 1 of 2.

BC held for the last shot, took a pull up jumper with about 3 seconds left. Missed badly. Ball and players on the ground in a scrum. Time expires as ball rolls out of bounds.

It was a lot of Mason, a good bit of Seth, and just enough Quinn to steal a win. Very physical but few whistles, and BC ran clock on every possession. Ugly hoops, but good guys win.

roywhite
02-10-2013, 08:25 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

Failed to show up? Embarrassed for their performance? Team just isn't progressing?
Is that a fair look at this game?

First the scoreboard:
Duke 62 BC 61
21-2
8-2 ACC
5 straight wins as this team continues to adjust to the loss of Ryan Kelly

Also:
BC plays a lot better at home, losing by one point to Miami
The unusual travel for Duke has some impact

We'd like to see good play in every game, but a road win in which Duke makes up a 5-point deficit in the last 2 minutes is something to be treasured, not blasted.

NashvilleDevil
02-10-2013, 08:28 PM
This thread does not need 5 pages. I do not think it's an excuse to say the travel messed with them. Glad they leave Boston with a W and everyone can let the hand wringing begin about Wednesday night.

As for progressing during the season. I think they are doing fine considering they have been playing without one of their best players for the last month and a half.

Billy Dat
02-10-2013, 08:29 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

God bless us, everyone. We won on the road without near our best stuff when we could have folded with 2 left and taken the L. BC played well. We are 21-2. There are no dominant teams in the NCAAs this year. Who is being Pollyanna...most people are saying that we played bad...yet we still have a shot at being #1 on Monday. If you hear some chains outside your window tonight, you may want to hang out with those ghosts for a while and get some perspective. It's a bone you lucky dog!

jipops
02-10-2013, 08:35 PM
A key point was about 6 minutes left and Cook getting his 4th foul. Duke was looking like they might open it up with a 5 point lead. But the offense fell apart when Quinn went out with his 4th and consequently the defense as well. I don't think we had a single fg when he was out. Mason saved us but what tonight tells me is we need Quinn around to put a team away.

jipops
02-10-2013, 08:38 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

When will these top 5 teams start progressing so they can be top 5 teams?

Newton_14
02-10-2013, 08:38 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

So let me ask you then. If you are right and we are wrong, why did Miami only win by 1 point at BC with a normal pre-game routine. Were you embarrassed for Miami? Do you think the Miami coaches were embarrassed?

How bout Kansas losing to TCU and Indiana to Illinois? So they suck too and should just throw in the towel now, right? Because really good college teams never have a bad game and if they do it is a sign of utter failure and impending doom?

SHould we take the entire Top 5 ranked teams and kick all of them out of the Top 25 rankings based on one game from this week?

Does the State game last Thursday not count?

Duke kids are human, not robots. Despite the demands of over zealous fans they are not going to win every game by 30, shooting 70% from the field and shutting down the opponent. Our underclassmen struggled. That happens to all teams. Our upperclassmen put us on their back and willed the team to a win.

This team is 21-2, and 6-2 w/o Ryan, including 3 road wins. They came from 5 down with less than 2 minutes to go to steal a win against a talented but young team playing inspired ball on their home court.

I will take it even if you don't.

NSDukeFan
02-10-2013, 08:45 PM
Anybody else notice what Mason said right before his free throws? Looked to me like he said "I got this. "

Love it. The power of positive thinking.

I believe he said "past your bedtime", but I can make it look like whatever I want to if I try hard enough.

JD79
02-10-2013, 08:49 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 08:51 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

Were you embarrassed for the near perfect first half they played against State? This is a team in progress who show moments or halves of brilliance. But there are bad days even against bad teams- You need to gut those games out and make big shots or throws. This game did not say anything about this team other than they need to play hard every game if they want to come out with a win. Duke needs more consistency out of its young guys. But young guys need to get experience to be consistent. Tonight the Seniors did what was needed to pull it out.

Jarhead
02-10-2013, 08:54 PM
It seems that a little bit of a band wagon infection is coming on with so many posters doing the negative thing. They won the game. All it takes is one point over the other team to win. We have done that many times, more times than I can recall or count. No one should ever put a one point win on the loss side. We will not know how good this team is until we get to the tournaments. My confidence is higher than it was in 2010.

NSDukeFan
02-10-2013, 08:54 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

I have been quite impressed that in most of the close games so far, the team has always been able to count on Mason and Seth being solid as the other younger members of the rotation sometimes struggle. I would call that leadership.

dukelifer
02-10-2013, 08:54 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

Odd, Mason showed pretty good leadership out there tonight. He made big throws when they counted and showed his toughness throughout. He could be more vocal- but in the last two games he has played like the best player in the conference.

Newton_14
02-10-2013, 08:56 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

So, with better leaders, they would be 23-0 instead of 21-2?

I personally think Mason, Seth, and Ryan are great leaders who have done a really good job of leading the younger guys this season, despite the huge impact of losing Kelly to injury.

Meanwhile, Mason and Seth are also doing a great job holding things together while Ryan heals. If Ryan can make it back to full health in time, this team will make a lot of noise in the post season.

But I certainly am not going to penalize Mason or Seth or question their Leadership because they lost their running mate to injury.

It's not like this team has lost 5 or 6 games to less talented teams or something.

Furniture
02-10-2013, 09:01 PM
I believe he said "past your bedtime", but I can make it look like whatever I want to if I try hard enough.

Love it!

NashvilleDevil
02-10-2013, 09:01 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

You mean the leadership that just won a game after being down 5 with 2 to go and dealing with outside circumstances just getting to Boston? That leadership?

roywhite
02-10-2013, 09:02 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

Not sure how you can watch:
1. Mason Plumlee -- playing 38 to 40 minutes in some big games, working his tail off, performing like a champ, earning the highest respect from his head coach, and putting up great numbers
2. Seth Curry -- playing injured, not even able to practice, yet still hitting big shots in big games

and talk about lack of leadership?

Now, without fellow classmate Ryan Kelly, they have shouldered even more of the load; they lead by doing.

Duvall
02-10-2013, 09:03 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

Question - did you think Duke had real Duke Basketball leadership during the 2010 season?

duketaylor
02-10-2013, 09:03 PM
this team is far from one of the more talented Duke teams and have done an excellent job of winning losable games. Being hurt just sucks. We're seeing K with one of his best coaching jobs, IMO. Lots more season to endure, but it is what it's become; we really would like to have Ryan back, but until we're very vulnerable. GO DEVILS!!

cptnflash
02-10-2013, 09:04 PM
I read all of the previous entries with great appreciation. But very little mention of the key issue with this team - lack of leadership (with true apologies to the mods). This team does not have real Duke Basketball leadership. Not sure if the seniors aren't equipped for it or it is too overwhelming for them to embrace. Sorry. Just an opinion.

This is ridiculous. Mason is obviously the leader of this team. He brings emotion, accepts the challenge of being our go-to guy even when teams key on him, plays hard all the time (except when he can't afford to foul on D), calls for the ball in big spots, and is constantly talking on the court (especially on defense). He carries himself with maturity and poise off the court, and is a credit to Duke basketball at all times. He understands (and has said publicly) that for Duke to be great, he has to be great. Our freshmen look up to him, and have said so in interviews several times. And most importantly, he clearly cares about winning above all else. Heck, he could be in the NBA right now with a guaranteed two year contract, but he came back to Duke specifically because he wanted to lead the team in his senior year. I'm not sure exactly what more you would want in a leader.

To the extent that this team has a "key issue", it's pretty simple - one of our best players is hurt. We're never going to be an elite team without Ryan. Without him, we're forced to rely on less talented / less experienced players. That will mean we'll lose some games that we otherwise would have won. But even so, our new team is now 6-2 with three road wins, with the only two losses coming to ranked teams on the road (one of which might be the best team in the country).

People who think there's something "wrong" with this team either A) Still don't appreciate what the absence of Ryan really means, or B) Have absurdly high expectations for Duke basketball in general.

Furniture
02-10-2013, 09:05 PM
Too much negativity. Was it a great game for us to watch? No! But.....
A W is a W!

devildeac
02-10-2013, 09:11 PM
I Heard it, too. I took it differently, though. He was talking to Duke interviewer, not to the national press or the Boston press. And it was classic K tongue in cheek humor. No doubt he has had an exhausting day, and to survive with a win was, in his view "really cool."
He wasn't denigrating God or country.

Oh, I didn't take it that way at all. I think he felt very lucky to escape with the W tonight.

-bdbd
02-10-2013, 09:14 PM
I will give it a shot.

First, we came out flat on offense, and took forever just to get to 10 points. BC had a slow start on offense as well but managed to get to an 8 point lead anyway. BC spread the court ran multiple cuts and high ball screens all game, running lots of clock before shooting. Their guards were a step quicker than our guards the entire night and they use it to turn Duke over 9 times in the first half.

...
We looked rattled, and K had gone to the 4 guard line up which only made it worse to me. We went 4 minutes without a FG from the 6 minute mark to the 2 minute mark and BC ran out to a 5 point lead scoring on 6 straight possessions.

But then Quinn hit a corner 3 to cut it to 2 with under 2 minutes. We got a stop. Then Quinn lobbed to Mason but he was a tad too far out and brought it down. Got mugged. Made both. Tie game. We got another stop. Mason rebounded and got mugged. Made 1 of 2.

BC held for the last shot, took a pull up jumper with about 3 seconds left. Missed badly. Ball and players on the ground in a scrum. Time expires as ball rolls out of bounds.

It was a lot of Mason, a good bit of Seth, and just enough Quinn to steal a win. Very physical but few whistles, and BC ran clock on every possession. Ugly hoops, but good guys win.

It is easy to forget that Duke has loads more talent than BC, and you have to be fair and say that that much inferior raw talent outplayed us tonight. It looked like K took an extra couple moment with their coach to pay him a sincere-looking compliment afterwards.

Actually, on the last play I don't think that their coach intended to go that late in the clock - with only 3 seconds left - and also notice that Quinn and Mason had to switch players they were defending with about 7 seconds left, up by the elbow. I was watching for a lob to the big that Quinn had then, but who was taking him down low. On the bad last shot, the BC Center was going to get the rebound on the back side of the bucket, but Quinn (with really no other option) used his hip to undercut the BC big man, pushing him well under the basket. (If you watch the tape, notice Quinn then start backing away with his hands semi-raised, like he was expecting to be called for the foul.) I may have mis-seen the last couple seconds, but it appeared that Mason came up with the ball, and was knocked towards the end line... and, very smartly, as he knew the clock was about out, seemed to toss the ball in the air out of bounds, trying to burn an extra second or two...

Hey, a win is a win. And we sould be #1 again this week at least, but boy do I feel like we just stole one that we really didn't fully deserve. Sometimes its better to be lucky....

devildeac
02-10-2013, 09:21 PM
My screen name in chat tonight was: Jesuit'sADukeW.

I really didn't wish to be prophetic. I'd have been much calmer with a double digit victory. Still quivering/shaking about the ending.

Reilly
02-10-2013, 09:27 PM
Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? ....

Kenny Dennard says no.

tele
02-10-2013, 09:33 PM
BC played a solid game and they had a chance to win it at the end. They were able to play their tempo and use some tough defense to limit Duke's scoring. They were doubling Mason, knocking Rasheed off his stride and gettting out on Curry, which isn't easy to pull off.

But a good road win for Duke in an equity game. The guys that brought "it" needed all of it to get the win, like Mason hitting free throws to win the game. But also Cook, after being stymied for most of the game still stepping up and hitting the trifecta shot when the team needed it, while playing with four fouls. So that should help him in close games on and down the road.

And also equity game for team seedings, both for acc tourney and ncaa. They said Lunardi had Duke as number 1 seed in East before this game, so getting a win and holding that position for awhile longer won't hurt. I know it is just bracketology but to me it has more bearing on things than who is number 1 in the national ranking polls at this point. And in the next couple of weeks the discussion of what seed and what region will heat up much more, so staking out the 1 in the east and holding it for a while at least has things pointed in the right direction, planting the seed so to speak. And there is still a fair chance at the 1 seed in the acc tourney as well so this win tonight was a struggle but a great win for the team and it's post season chances and possible pathways.

dchen09
02-10-2013, 09:35 PM
Kenny Dennard says no.

I dunno, on replays it did look like he did. Basically ran right through him. On the other hand when Mason grabbed the ball a BC player dragged his arm down. All in all it was called like the rest of the game.

Furniture
02-10-2013, 09:39 PM
Question - did you think Duke had real Duke Basketball leadership during the 2010 season?

I just remember a LOT of games going right down to the wire and finishing with a W.

Rich
02-10-2013, 09:42 PM
At least Duke is the only top 5 team not to be upset this week.

Interesting...where'd you hear that? Was that an obscure stat they showed during the game at one point? :rolleyes:

sporthenry
02-10-2013, 09:52 PM
I do think that Kelly was one of if not the biggest leader. He seemed to lead the huddles at the FT line and got everyone pumped up with his big plays on either side. Mason and Seth were more quiet leaders. I've seen Mason take what seems to be a more concerted effort to show more emotion which I think is a positive. Josh has also brought this energy every time he steps on the floor and TT as well which is why they are great off the bench for those sparks. Cook is still a work in progress and he seems to let his play affect his leadership but I have faith that K will work with him on that.

But when Mason had the ball stolen tonight, it looked like a light went on. If the refs aren't going to take care of this, then I will. Ran down the floor and grabbed a man's rebound. I would like to see that fire more often. BC took it to us and I thought quite a few times they disrespected us a bit with talking after that shot when TT was hit or on a couple of their dunks. I'd like to see our team take that personal and not just show this fire in Cameron. No disrespect and I doubt they liked BC dunking on them anymore than we did but hopefully they remember this for next year or the ACCT.

mapei
02-10-2013, 10:04 PM
Most people have said what I saw. One thing I'll add is that Seth looked really tired during the last 10 minutes, both while in play (slower than usual, though he's never been really quick) and especially during dead ball time. He wasn't able to be himself on either O or D, though without his play in the first 3/4 of the game we wouldn't even have had a chance.

I actually feel kind of bad for BC. Their coach seems like a good guy and their kids played about as hard as is humanly possible, led most of the game, but couldn't close it.

To be honest, I'm not expecting us to be "progressing," as one poster said. Really, we're trying to win games any way we can with one solid, big-time player, one very good scorer who is playing on one good leg, a bunch of other guys who can be awesome one minute and mediocre another. We're not deep, either: after Mason, Seth, Cook and Rasheed, the quality drops off quite a bit. There is going to be a lot of ugliness in our style, but for wonderful anomalies like the 1st half against State. We don't have the consistent talent to do that often. I agree that K is doing a great job this year.

Speaking of K, I thought he looked pretty lifeless in the first half, too. He was more animated in the second.

sagegrouse
02-10-2013, 10:11 PM
It is easy to forget that Duke has loads more talent than BC, and you have to be fair and say that that much inferior raw talent outplayed us tonight. It looked like K took an extra couple moment with their coach to pay him a sincere-looking compliment afterwards.

....

After scoring to go ahead 61-56 with 2:15 left, BC did not have another positive play for the rest of the game. Four missed shots. Two fouls. There was one rebound by BC. Meanwhile Duke was 1-2, with the miss resulting in an offensive rebound. Mason made three of four FTs for the win. BC did not deserve to win the game, IMHO (where the H is usually silent).

The posts above that cite "worst performance of the season" are just nuts. We had two games wtih 14 percent shooting from beyond the arc -- one loss and one win. This was a team that had none of its usual game-day ritual. Did not have either a practice or a shoot-around. Did not arrive the day before the game, as is standard. Flew up midday the day of the game. Hasn't happened in years. The game-day stuff is a BFD.

Good win. NOW, GTHC. -- sagegrouse

Deslok
02-10-2013, 10:39 PM
One other thing to note, especially to see if its carried forward by other teams, is that BC seemed to play defense in a manner that reminded me a bit of 1991 Duke vs UNLV. Seeing Hairston as a negligible scoring threat, whenever Plumlee got the ball, the PF slid over to help, and we failed to make them pay. It also occurred with Jefferson out there, as he only seemed to get the ball out on the perimeter where he'd take a second to look around, allowing the defense time to recover. The long jumper by Hairston was, at the time, I thought a bad shot. But he made it, and if he can start planting that seed a little more in team's minds it will feel less like 4 vs 5 on offense. Teams have consistently been sloughing off our 4 spot, but this is the first game where it appeared that way even before Mason got the ball some times.

It was an ugly game, and the refs, while frustrating, I thought at least called a pretty consistent game. And that's all I'll ever ask for: be consistent and the players will adjust to how its being called. BC is not a great team right now, but they have talent, and its young talent, so I don't think anyone would be shocked if they stepped into the ACC race in 2 years time. Part of that growing up process for the team will be coming out on the road just as hard and focused as they come out at home. And some of these close losses will turn in to close wins.

Happy that Duke came out with a win. Unhappy with the sloppiness with the ball and some of the defensive lapses. But the Blue Devils gritted out a win in tough circumstances when they were not anywhere near their best, and that's a good thing.

mo.st.dukie
02-10-2013, 10:40 PM
All the other top teams found a way to lose these types of games. KU found a way to lose two of these types of games. Indiana and Michigan couldn't make the necessary defensive plays down the stretch to win these types of games. Florida didn't even have a chance to make the necessary defensive plays down the stretch to win these types of games. Duke found a way to WIN this type of game. You can argue all day long about the relative strength of Team A vs. Team B and why barely losing to Team A is much more impressive than barely beating Team B but that's not how sports work. No ranking system or algorithm out there can account for human nature which is why the NCAA Tournament is so famous, you never know what might happen. I'll take the conference road win, many of the other top teams would love to have had Duke's outcome in some of their recent games.

KandG
02-10-2013, 10:43 PM
I was at the game, and it looked even worse in person than I imagine it looked to most of the people watching on ESPN U. As most people have said, the Duke players were playing as if they were underwater...everything was slow and labored. To Boston College's credit, they junked up the game well with their matchup defense and their deliberate offense, with lots of off-ball screens and movement. Quinn had one of those games where he just seemed to dribble into bodies without a plan and picked up cheap fouls on defense.

It still looked like Duke would pull away comfortably in the second half, but suddenly BC started executing and Duke looked like they had never guarded a screen and roll in their life...on that one inbound play that produced a dunk, you could see it developing a mile away, but Mason had his head turned and I was practically screaming at him to pay attention. Seth Curry was interviewed postgame and acknowledged that their legs were heavy from the travel and that they were in less than prime form, so I'm not inclined to panic. (It was still alarming to see so little run for Seth at the end...on a few sequences, he was just standing on one side of the court).

The best part of the game was the win...everything else was U-G-L-Y. Thank goodness that's over.

burns15
02-10-2013, 10:51 PM
Anybody else notice what Mason said right before his free throws? Looked to me like he said "I got this. "

Love it. The power of positive thinking.

He said, "I can do all things." As in the first part of Phillipians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Neals384
02-10-2013, 11:11 PM
A few more observations for those who couldn't watch the game...here are some things that really hurt in the first part of the game...

Duke had one of those slow starts..and then some. At the first TV timeout they were 0 for 5 shooting with 3 turnovers but trailed just 0-4. K pulled three of the starters and put Hairston, Murphy and Thornton in along with Seth and Mason...I understand K's frustration but that doesn't seem like a lineup designed to generate a lot of points, and it didn't.

In the early going, Mason seemed really slow to recognize the double-team...yo, dude, someone's open!

A couple times Quinn started a drive and was double-teamed just inside the three point line. It wasn't a zone but it was just like trying to drive against a zone. Instead of finding the open man, Quinn simply backed it out. Pretty passive, I thought.

I haven't heard anyone comment on MP3's failure to make an appearance. When MP2 went to the bench (briefly), Josh took his place. What's up with that?

After the early going I though the team played pretty well and BC was a tough out...Good win in tough circumstances.

throatybeard
02-10-2013, 11:12 PM
I feel like a Scrooge on this board. How can anyone say anything good about tonight? Forget excuses about snow. We came to play one of the ACC bottom dwellers when we knew the country was watching, and we failed to really show up. So we got the win? Relief. But I for one am wondering when we will all stop making excuses for a team that just isn't progressing the way we all expect a Coach K team to do. I admit we are spoiled. But that doesn't mean we have to be Pollyanna. This team has to start showing some consistency in our killer instinct at some point. After watching some of the epic games this weekend, I was embarrassed for this team.

I'm not sure an ESPNU telecast at dinner time on Sunday qualifies as "the country was watching."

_Gary
02-10-2013, 11:20 PM
This is one of those games that when your team squeaks out a victory you say, "ugly win, but a win nonetheless." Dare I venture to say had Duke lost the game by one point, instead of winning by one, many more (myself included) would probably be calling this the worst of game of the year. Sure, we got it handed to us by NC State and Miami, but they are top tier teams in the conference where, to be honest, it just didn't seem like our day. With tonight it was different. We seemed lifeless for the entire first half and again in parts of the second. Had we lost I would have probably called this the worst game we played all year because it just seemed like we were slow, careless with the ball, and, again, lifeless for so much of the night.

Thankfully we pulled it out and that does speak volumes about this team. We've found ways to win even when playing some of our worst ball. *If* we can somehow get Kelly back by the end of the regular season so that he has a couple of weeks of real game experience before the NCAA's, I like our chances. If not, it will take a supreme effort to go all the way - but it wouldn't be impossible if everyone played at their best ('Sheed in particular would need to round back into early season form).

Kedsy
02-10-2013, 11:50 PM
People who think there's something "wrong" with this team either A) Still don't appreciate what the absence of Ryan really means, or B) Have absurdly high expectations for Duke basketball in general.

Amen, brother.

Jim3k
02-11-2013, 02:29 AM
“Coach, he knows what to do,” Plumlee said. “He knew (Ryan) Anderson was going to set the ball screen, so he put Rasheed on Anderson because they kept coming off the ball screen.” Anderson, a 6-foot-8 forward, did come set a high ball screen, and the 6-foot-4 Sulaimon was there to bounce off of it and pick up Olivier Hanlan, who already had a game-high 20 points. The switch disrupted Hanlan enough so that he couldn’t drive the to the basket, so he pulled up and released a jumper halfway down the right side of the lane. It clanked off the rim, and Tyler Thornton out-muscled Anderson, and the final buzzer sounded with players from both teams lying on the floor, fighting for the ball.




Laura Keeley's N&O story (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/02/10/2670091/duke-struggling-at-boston-college.html)

NSDukeFan
02-11-2013, 04:39 AM
Interesting...where'd you hear that? Was that an obscure stat they showed during the game at one point? :rolleyes:

You caught that too? I thought I might have been the only one to notice that graphic at every stoppage in play.

ChrisP
02-11-2013, 07:23 AM
I cannot believe that some people here are saying that we played worse against BC than we did against Miami. Exaggerate much? I thought the Miami game was truly awful and was very critical of the effort in that game (after they blew it open when it was like 13-14 early on). This game was totally different. Yes, we had some guys with off games and some guys make bad decisions with the ball and yes, we had some bad defensive lapses (I was particularly annoyed on a couple of inbounds plays in the 2nd half). But, see the thing is, we ended up with one more point than our opponent when the little red light came on at the end of the game which, where I come from, is a win.

As others have pointed out, people who expect this Duke team, without Kelly, to go on the road in an improving ACC and pound opponents into submission just have screwed up expectations. Perspective, people. First of all, I hate the Sunday night games - it often seems to me that our guys have all weekend to sit around waiting (yes, I know that they're practicing, studying, etc, but you know what I mean) and watch a ton of other teams play - both in-conference and nationally - and then they have to try to get "up" for a 6pm Sunday night game. Yawn. And of course yesterday, Duke flew in the day of the game, BC was fired up and playing with absolutely NOTHING to lose, we started slowly, missed a lot of open shots throughout the game and were played very physically by BC.

I see virtually NO comparison to the Miami game from earlier this year. I think another poster also said something about "gettng it handed to us" by State, but, if I recall, we lost that game (our first adjusting to no Ryan) by 8 whole points and when State played their you-know-what's off. The only game this year where Duke truly looked bad - at least for the whole game - was, IMHO, the Miami game. Duke, even without Kelly, is a very good team. Not great, probably not NC quality, but still very good. Perspective, please.

Oh, and for those of you who wanted to see Duke just beat the snot out of BC, check back again on 2/24 around 2pm. I suspect you might get your wish then.

Dopeshop
02-11-2013, 07:29 AM
I'm never comfortable when he's on the floor . I fell like it's always 4 on 5 offensively .

davekay1971
02-11-2013, 07:43 AM
I'm never comfortable when he's on the floor . I fell like it's always 4 on 5 offensively .

There were similar comments made about Lance in 2010.

The simple fact is, it's rare that a team will have 5 legitimate scorers on the court at one time. When we have Kelly, and we have Quinn, Rasheed, Seth, Mason, and Ryan on the court at one time, that's possibly the best scoring lineup in college basketball. That's great. Wish we could have that kind of scoring on the court all game, every game. But that's not realistic (right now, with Ryan out, of course, it's not possible). It's also not necessary. Teams do quite well with 3 to 4 scorers on the court. Look at UNLV in 1990 and 1991. Awesome teams. Won alot. Had scorers like Augmon, Grandmama, and Anderson Hunt. Greg Anthony could score some. Who was their center again? Could he score? No? Just put-backs and layups? Kind of like Josh? So UNLV won a championship, annihilating some team from the ACC in the process, then dominated college basketball the next year until that same ACC team pulled a crazy upset to derail their back-to-back ambitions, playing 4 on 5 on offense.

You can go on through basketball history, and that's what you see, again and again. 1982 Tarheels - some stiff named Matt Doherty in the lineup. 1991 and 1992 Duke - Brian Davis wasn't much of a scorer - he got his points, but mainly when teams were trying to figure out how the heck to contain Laettner, Hurley, Hill, and Hill and forgot to guard Brian, or when Bobby did one of those sick passes that found Brian wide open with a lane to the basket.

Teams that have 5 strong scorers on the floor at once are the exception. We can be that team when Kelly's healthy again. The 2009 Heels were that team. The 1999 Blue Devils and 2001 Blue Devils (when Carlos was healthy, although Duhon was finding his confidence and his shot as the season went on). But, the 2001 team sure did some good things playing 4 on 5 offense when Casey Sanders was on the court.

Josh isn't a scorer, that's true. But we have plenty of scorers, and Josh knows his role - play defense, rebound, and finish when you get the ball in close. He's good at all three of those things. So don't worry when Josh is on the court...unless he starts looking to establish himself as a 3 point shooter.

CDu
02-11-2013, 07:51 AM
Selective memory. You are forgetting about Duke's impressive win versus NC State while Indiana lost to Illinois. Not to mention, Duke already holds the impressive win against OSU.


indiana lost to their unranked opponent this week.....


How bout Kansas losing to TCU and Indiana to Illinois? So they suck too and should just throw in the towel now, right? Because really good college teams never have a bad game and if they do it is a sign of utter failure and impending doom?

People have used some very creative logic in some of these posts. Folks, losing on a last-second shot at Illinois is more impressive than a last-second win at Boston College. The Illini are 17-8, and #41 in Pomeroy (compared to BC's #120 and State's #29). They crushed Butler, they beat Gonzaga AT Gonzaga by double digits, and they destroyed Ohio State. They are, roughly, as good as NC State. They are almost certainly better at home than NC State is on the road without Lorenzo Brown. So folks who are classifying the Illinois loss by Indiana as anywhere close to the BC win for us are not using sound logic.

Furthermore, classifying the State win (at home) in the same category as the OSU win for Indiana (on the road) are also being silly. The Ohio State win is more impressive, and more recent.

Indiana played better basketball than Duke last week. If voters base their votes on how teams are playing right now, Indiana should be ahead of us. And Miami should be ahead of both teams. Of course, I have to close with the usual caveat that regular season rankings are virtually meaningless.


Does anyone think Quinn undercut Ryan Anderson on that last rebound? I watched it over about 10 times and couldn't tell.

Laura Keeley from the Raleigh paper said the team was standing there while they were playing the BC alma mater.

Yes, Cook absolutely undercut Anderson on that last rebound. It wasn't even close, and I'm amazed that folks can rationalize themselves into believing that Cook didn't undercut Anderson. That being said, I agree with sporthenry below (to some degree):


But if you want to examine every call, I don't think BC can say anything about the refs. They definitely seemed more physical and they shot more free throws.

BC was mugging Duke and getting away with it. I thought there were tons of horrible calls both ways (Thornton got away with a clear foul on his steal that subsequently resulted in his fast break turnover), but I thought BC got away with more blatant contact than Duke. It was a very poorly officiated game, and to harp on that one call would be ridiculous.

As for the game, I did not think we played well. It didn't help that lots of good looks didn't fall (seemed like there was a lid on the rim every time Cook drove for a layup), but we played tentative and didn't make good decisions with the basketball. BC's game plan was simple: double Mason with a third guy dropping down to protect the rim from cutters, then hustle back out if Duke kicked the ball out to 3pt shooters. We did a very poor job of recognizing that early on, and once we started to figure it out BC did a good job of chasing shooters and forcing another move (which generally resulted in mistakes by us). The loose officiating certainly didn't help matters.

But in the end, we got the win. And ultimately, that's all that matters. Win and move on. Win and move on. Hopefully we'll bring our "A" game against UNC in Cameron this week.

roywhite
02-11-2013, 08:02 AM
Don't care much about the rankings, but just a quick .02 on Indiana.

They failed abysmally in their efforts to close out a win vs Illinois. That last play of the game capped it off, and is not a lapse you would see in a junior high game.

jcastranio
02-11-2013, 08:13 AM
I am a little surprised at the general tone of some on the board after this game - not that those folks are not entitled to their opinion. It was an ugly, but a great, college basketball game. Duke had a lot of things (little and big) going against them, but they hung tough and won. I am proud of their effort and pleased with the result. If they had lost, I still would have been proud of their effort.

I mean, the Miami Heat have lost 14 games this year. It happens.

Boston College played tough, hard-nosed defense - very physical. They used the clock on offense and made the defense work. On a different day, in a different time-continuum, we make a few more shots early and cut down on a few turnovers and it's a comfortable 15 point win. But that is not how college basketball works.

I thought Mason, Quinn, and Seth played well. Rasheed was working hard on defense, his offense seemed just a step off - I think more because of BC and than anything else.

Amile and Alex played well in their time. Alex has gotten first half minutes mostly and that continued. I think Amile sat in the second half not because he didn't play well, but because Josh was bringing a more physical presence. The game was physical and we needed a tough body that could give fouls if need be. Josh's two key buckets were a help in a low-scoring game like this.

I think Tyler brought a physical presence, as well. He had a few mistakes, but he plays strong - able to take on bigger players on the switch as well. He also seems to have a knack for getting into some player's heads. They want to score on him, pay him back, show him up -- I actually think that made a difference in the last two minutes.

Again - not unhappy with Alex, Amile, or Rasheed - they all contributed to the win. I think Tyler and Josh were the right players for the comeback win, though.

Of course, you can't win if your stars aren't playing, and they were.

BTW - I saw the earlier post about "Kenny Dennard doesn't think so." Kenny is my era (I also was a freshman in 1977-78). In 1980 or 1979, at the end of the ACC title game against Maryland, Albert King missed a shot to win it for MD. Buck Williams jumped for a tip/rebound of that shot, but found himself undercut and carried out of bounds by a Duke forward known for his defense, hustle, and toughness. No foul was considered on the play. That Duke player? Kenny Dennard. As far as did Quinn foul him? Well, BC got their shot. Once the shot missed, there were about 27 fouls happening underneath on both sides. Should an official pick out one in particular to benefit one team or the other? Good no call.

Good win. No ... great win.

CDu
02-11-2013, 08:18 AM
Well, BC got their shot. Once the shot missed, there were about 27 fouls happening underneath on both sides. Should an official pick out one in particular to benefit one team or the other? Good no call.

I don't agree with this. Call the fouls. If two people are fouling each other, maybe you let those go as neither gains advantage. But when one person clearly fouls someone else, call the foul. It was a bad no call, just like many of the other bad no calls throughout the game (both ways, but I think more frequently in favor of BC).


Good win. No ... great win.

It was a win. It was a survival. Good enough. But not a great win.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-11-2013, 09:00 AM
I wonder how many responders actually watched the whole game or they are simply reading rankings and BC's atrocious record.

BC has enormous talent, and they are only one or two years away from being in the top tier. They are all freshmen and sophomores. Their earlier ugly losses are irrelevant because they were only just learning how to play together. They're wildly inconsistent, but if they are on a hot streak they're as dangerous as any other team in the ACC. (They nearly beat Miami and State, those were not flukes). They're starting to figure things out.

Add that to a disruption in Duke's normal rhythm, and the game was not as tremendous a disaster as most people on the board seem to think.

This BC team is very well coached and bursting with raw talent. They just have no consistency. But they had a wild crowd behind them, and a sense of urgency last night which covered up their youth.

Duke's win was gritty and ugly but very hard fought.

Matches
02-11-2013, 09:04 AM
Clearly not a vintage performance. Not something we'd want to see repeated. But for a classic trap game with the added weather difficulties, I'll take it. Nice job by the team of fighting back in the last two minutes.

LOVED MP2 drilling the two FTs to tie it up. Those were clutch.

OldPhiKap
02-11-2013, 09:24 AM
There were similar comments made about Lance in 2010.



And Billy King in '88.

I think the comparison to Lance is apt. Jiggy rebounds, and takes charges like a champ. He has better hands than Lance. The main difference is, Lance did not have the green light to put up 15 footers and Josh obviously does. I assume the coaches want him taking that shot, which makes me think that he shows the ability to hit them in practice.

Folks like Josh and TT do the dirty work needed to win. Not every player's main contribution is hitting jump shots.

GGLC
02-11-2013, 09:27 AM
Josh isn't a scorer, that's true. But we have plenty of scorers, and Josh knows his role - play defense, rebound, and finish when you get the ball in close. He's good at all three of those things. So don't worry when Josh is on the court...unless he starts looking to establish himself as a 3 point shooter.

...Except that Josh took five shots, and two of them were long jumpers out near the three-point line (one of which he hit). He was 2 for 5 from the field, including blowing a fairly easy dunk. So he didn't exactly play as if his role was to "finish when [he] get[s] the ball in close." He also had only one rebound in 17 minutes of play.

I would have liked to have seen Amile play more in the second half (four rebounds and one block in 11 minutes).

GGLC
02-11-2013, 09:30 AM
Folks like Josh and TT do the dirty work needed to win. Not every player's main contribution is hitting jump shots.

No, some people's contribution is to make awful passes in transition. :)

Matches
02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
Folks like Josh and TT do the dirty work needed to win. Not every player's main contribution is hitting jump shots.

I thought TT played his tail off last night. Lots of his contributions didn't show up in the box score, but there was a reason he played 30 minutes. He didn't always play *well*, mind you, but he played VERY hard.

roywhite
02-11-2013, 10:02 AM
I thought TT played his tail off last night. Lots of his contributions didn't show up in the box score, but there was a reason he played 30 minutes. He didn't always play *well*, mind you, but he played VERY hard.

Yeah, I think Coach K made good use of Tyler and Josh based on his read of the game. After a slow start, Coach K told his team to "wake up", and saw that the game required intensity and physical play. He got that from Tyler and Josh.

Seems every year that we realize again that ACC road games are a big adjustment for freshmen, even talented ones. Rasheed and Amile had their moments, but it was the upperclass reserves who were better suited for this type of challenge.

Channing
02-11-2013, 10:04 AM
As others have said, a win is a win. This was hardly a thing of beauty, but, all things being equal, I'd rather win ugly than lose ugly.

As some have mentioned, both Cook and Thornton were having some trouble with their decision making. The difference, though, is that Cook is so talented that he can make up for his miscues (like with the late 3 from the corner). If Thornton is making mental mistakes his value really plummets. That turnover after his steal was just awful.

Although Cook came up with the huge 3, his body language is a little frustrating. For example, when he tried dropping off a pass to Seth on a fast break, and threw it right to BC for a fast break, instead of immediately hightailing it back on defense he took a split second to throw his hands up and almost blame Seth for not catching the pass. This is something I see from Thornton too ... looking to blame a bad play on someone else.

I know Duke emphasizes taking charges, but I thought that strategy really hurt us today. Rasheed's fainting goat on one BC fast break drive cost us a clear two points, as he would have been in position to get the rebound had he not flopped. Instead BC was able to get a follow up layup. Other times, rather than contesting a shot our guys tried to slip in for a charge under the basket and got called for blocking, creating 3 point play opportunities. I know taking a charge can swing momentum, but sometimes a good old fashioned challenge is the better option.

I thought our freshmen looked like Freshmen today. Murphy seemed to be pressing when he was in, and looked more like he was trying to avoid a mistake rather than playing by instinct. Rasheed too seemed to be pressing on offense, although he kept up great defensive pressure which was great. I'm not sure what his issue is, but he seems to slip and fall more than most guys. Perhaps he just needs to strengthen his core.

With the negatives out the way, I thought Seth and Mason really brought *it* in the second half. Seth's split of the defenders and little tear drop was a thing of beauty. The maturation of Seth's game really reminds me of JJ's game, where he became just as efficient inside the arc as outside the arc. My only concern for Seth is that he is going to start getting more carry calls heading into March. Mason, meanwhile, continues his clutch free throw shooting and just general dominance. On a night where he couldn't really get into a traditional offensive flow he still had a major impact by getting second chance points and getting out in transition. He also hit Hairston with a beautiful bounce pass for an easy layup.

CDu
02-11-2013, 10:14 AM
And Billy King in '88.

I think the comparison to Lance is apt. Jiggy rebounds, and takes charges like a champ. He has better hands than Lance. The main difference is, Lance did not have the green light to put up 15 footers and Josh obviously does. I assume the coaches want him taking that shot, which makes me think that he shows the ability to hit them in practice.

Folks like Josh and TT do the dirty work needed to win. Not every player's main contribution is hitting jump shots.

I'm not sure that any of the bolded part is true. Hairston is the worst rebounder of our 4 active bigs. And he seems to have terrible hands (fumbles tons of balls out of bounds). And while he does take plenty of charges, he also takes plenty of blocking fouls while trying to take charges.

Hairston clearly tries hard and is more than willing to do the dirty work. But let's not overstate his effectiveness.

If Hairston can settle down and get better and catching the ball and going up strong, and if he can start consistently hitting the 15 footer, he'll be a very valuable role player. But I don't think we're quite there yet.

COYS
02-11-2013, 10:34 AM
I'm not sure that any of the bolded part is true. Hairston is the worst rebounder of our 4 active bigs. And he seems to have terrible hands (fumbles tons of balls out of bounds). And while he does take plenty of charges, he also takes plenty of blocking fouls while trying to take charges.

Hairston clearly tries hard and is more than willing to do the dirty work. But let's not overstate his effectiveness.

If Hairston can settle down and get better and catching the ball and going up strong, and if he can start consistently hitting the 15 footer, he'll be a very valuable role player. But I don't think we're quite there yet.

This is spot on. There's a reason Amile was inserted into the starting lineup. It doesn't mean that freshman Amile is better equipped for every circumstance than junior Josh, but the staff clearly saw a reason to move Amile into the starting lineup.

Now, this isn't to denigrate Josh. However, Josh clearly has limitations. There might be some similarities between Josh and Lance offensively, but on defense, Lance is certainly superior. Lance got more steals, moved his feet faster to stay in front of smaller players, and by his senior year had become almost flawless with his rotations and positioning. Josh is working his way there, but he still has a ways to go. He's a step slow on many of his rotations (hence he probably leads the team in both charges taken and blocking fouls conceded) and gets in trouble when he switches onto a smaller player. While I won't knock him for making what turned out to be a big jumper yesterday, the long range two point shot is simply the lowest value shot in basketball. It's only worth 2 points and almost never leads to a foul against the other team. It is also a difficult shot to hit consistently. Seth and Rasheed use it on occasion to beat defenders who cover them on spot up threes or who are hanging with them on a drive to the basket. However, in both of these cases, the shot is used to complement their other offensive moves. When Josh spots up for long range two, it also doesn't stretch the floor very much as opposing defenses can live with Josh taking that shot and rarely even bother to seriously challenge the shot.

All that being said, Josh played tough yesterday in a physical game on the road against a well coached team. Amile was being pushed around (despite having a few good plays, himself), and we needed Josh's strength and physicality. He and Tyler both responded much better to the physical play than did Amile and Rasheed. He has limitations that the staff is clearly aware of. Ideally, I think his role is to come in and play limited "toughness" minutes. However, until we get Ryan back and/or until Amile blossoms (which probably won't happen until next season after a summer of weight training), there will be games when we need Josh's game, with all of it's warts, on the court for long stretches.

CDu
02-11-2013, 10:43 AM
This is spot on. There's a reason Amile was inserted into the starting lineup. It doesn't mean that freshman Amile is better equipped for every circumstance than junior Josh, but the staff clearly saw a reason to move Amile into the starting lineup.

Now, this isn't to denigrate Josh. However, Josh clearly has limitations. There might be some similarities between Josh and Lance offensively, but on defense, Lance is certainly superior. Lance got more steals, moved his feet faster to stay in front of smaller players, and by his senior year had become almost flawless with his rotations and positioning. Josh is working his way there, but he still has a ways to go. He's a step slow on many of his rotations (hence he probably leads the team in both charges taken and blocking fouls conceded) and gets in trouble when he switches onto a smaller player. While I won't knock him for making what turned out to be a big jumper yesterday, the long range two point shot is simply the lowest value shot in basketball. It's only worth 2 points and almost never leads to a foul against the other team. It is also a difficult shot to hit consistently. Seth and Rasheed use it on occasion to beat defenders who cover them on spot up threes or who are hanging with them on a drive to the basket. However, in both of these cases, the shot is used to complement their other offensive moves. When Josh spots up for long range two, it also doesn't stretch the floor very much as opposing defenses can live with Josh taking that shot and rarely even bother to seriously challenge the shot.

I agree with everything you said here, but would like to add one more thing to the bolded: Hairston often switches too readily and (in many cases) unnecessarily onto smaller players. On at least two occasions last night, Hairston switched on a high screen (like 25-30 feet away from the basket) onto a guard. In both cases, our guard easily had time to recover to his man, but Hairston had so committed to the switch that our guard was forced to guard Anderson. And in at least one if not both cases, Anderson took advantage to post up our smaller guard for a basket.

The crazy part is that, in one of those instances, Cook had recovered and yet Hairston literally ran around Cook to get in front of the guard and forced the switch. Given that Hairston isn't the quickest of players (he often has trouble staying in front of PFs, let alone guards), I'd really like it if he was a bit less switch-happy on screens 25+ feet from the basket. If the screen happens at the 3pt line? Sure. Switch away and don't allow an open 3. But 25+ feet away? Hedge and recover. Hedge and recover.


All that being said, Josh played tough yesterday in a physical game on the road against a well coached team. Amile was being pushed around (despite having a few good plays, himself), and we needed Josh's strength and physicality. He and Tyler both responded much better to the physical play than did Amile and Rasheed. He has limitations that the staff is clearly aware of. Ideally, I think his role is to come in and play limited "toughness" minutes. However, until we get Ryan back and/or until Amile blossoms (which probably won't happen until next season after a summer of weight training), there will be games when we need Josh's game, with all of it's warts, on the court for long stretches.

I'll agree with this completely.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 10:44 AM
I wonder how many responders actually watched the whole game or they are simply reading rankings and BC's atrocious record.

BC has enormous talent, and they are only one or two years away from being in the top tier. They are all freshmen and sophomores. Their earlier ugly losses are irrelevant because they were only just learning how to play together. They're wildly inconsistent, but if they are on a hot streak they're as dangerous as any other team in the ACC. (They nearly beat Miami and State, those were not flukes). They're starting to figure things out.

Add that to a disruption in Duke's normal rhythm, and the game was not as tremendous a disaster as most people on the board seem to think.

This BC team is very well coached and bursting with raw talent. They just have no consistency. But they had a wild crowd behind them, and a sense of urgency last night which covered up their youth.

Duke's win was gritty and ugly but very hard fought.

I watched the whole game, and while I agree the negativity around here is (as is usually the case) misplaced, I disagree that BC is "bursting with raw talent." To me, they looked like a more athletic Ivy League team. I thought Anderson and Hanlon were both pretty good, but nobody on that team looks to me to be a first round draft pick. They are well-coached, and I suspect in two years when they have five seniors and two juniors they'll be a pretty dangerous team, possibly in the top tier, as you say. But "enormous talent"? I'd say based on raw talent alone they're in the lower tier of the ACC.

Saratoga2
02-11-2013, 10:51 AM
I will give it a shot.

First, we came out flat on offense, and took forever just to get to 10 points. BC had a slow start on offense as well but managed to get to an 8 point lead anyway. BC spread the court ran multiple cuts and high ball screens all game, running lots of clock before shooting. Their guards were a step quicker than our guards the entire night and they use it to turn Duke over 9 times in the first half.

When we had the ball, BC was doubling Mason immediately, and also bringing a 3rd defender right to the middle of the lane. W/o Ryan we still do not space very well against scheme's like that. When Mason kicked it out, BC closed quickly on the shooters and we were cold. We played behind most of the 1st half before Seth and Mason got it going and brought us back to take the lead. Amile, Josh, and Murphy all got time at the 4, and none of them did much on offense, and all had trouble with all the cutting going on by the smaller BC guys.

In the second half, K went with Josh for the most part. We started out fairly hot and got out to a 5 or 6 point lead, but just could not put them away. Between the 12 and 8 minute TO's BC surged a bit, and we got tentative. Our guys started tiring it seemed and BC seemed as quick as they were at the start. They got two energy plays off dunks from the same kid. First was a blow by then dish. Mason fouled trying to stop the dunk. Next came a blown inbounds defense where they lobbed to the same kid and he dunked again.

We looked rattled, and K had gone to the 4 guard line up which only made it worse to me. We went 4 minutes without a FG from the 6 minute mark to the 2 minute mark and BC ran out to a 5 point lead scoring on 6 straight possessions.

But then Quinn hit a corner 3 to cut it to 2 with under 2 minutes. We got a stop. Then Quinn lobbed to Mason but he was a tad too far out and brought it down. Got mugged. Made both. Tie game. We got another stop. Mason rebounded and got mugged. Made 1 of 2.

BC held for the last shot, took a pull up jumper with about 3 seconds left. Missed badly. Ball and players on the ground in a scrum. Time expires as ball rolls out of bounds.

It was a lot of Mason, a good bit of Seth, and just enough Quinn to steal a win. Very physical but few whistles, and BC ran clock on every possession. Ugly hoops, but good guys win.

Thanks to you and others for providing more insights into what was going on for those of us who didn't get to see the game.

CDu
02-11-2013, 10:56 AM
I watched the whole game, and while I agree the negativity around here is (as is usually the case) misplaced, I disagree that BC is "bursting with raw talent." To me, they looked like a more athletic Ivy League team. I thought Anderson and Hanlon were both pretty good, but nobody on that team looks to me to be a first round draft pick. They are well-coached, and I suspect in two years when they have five seniors and two juniors they'll be a pretty dangerous team, possibly in the top tier, as you say. But "enormous talent"? I'd say based on raw talent alone they're in the lower tier of the ACC.

Could not agree more. Anderson and Hanlan are legitimately talented collegiate players. Anderson should be All-ACC, and Hanlan will probably get there eventually. I think the freshman PG Rahon might turn out to be really good, but I'm not sold for sure. Aside from that? Meh. Odio is athletic but unskilled, and undersized for his position. Clippard is big and a bit skilled but unathletic. Heckmann is nothing noteworthy. Jackson is a decent 3pt shooter, but not otherwise noteworthy.

I agree with the assessment that this team is clearly a lower-half ACC team in terms of talent right now. Might they eventually grow into more? Maybe. But the 10-13 record is fairly reflective of their talent level right now.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 10:56 AM
And Billy King in '88.

I think the comparison to Lance is apt. Jiggy rebounds, and takes charges like a champ. He has better hands than Lance. The main difference is, Lance did not have the green light to put up 15 footers and Josh obviously does. I assume the coaches want him taking that shot, which makes me think that he shows the ability to hit them in practice.

Folks like Josh and TT do the dirty work needed to win. Not every player's main contribution is hitting jump shots.

Josh plays hard, he plays physical, and in some games we need his contributions. BC was one of those games.

But come on. Josh is nowhere near the player Lance Thomas was for Duke (or is in the NBA). Lance started more than 100 games for us while Josh has started four. Josh is nowhere near the player NDPOY Billy King was for Duke. There is no rational measure that would suggest otherwise. So let's let Josh be Josh and move on.

arnie
02-11-2013, 11:00 AM
I'm not sure that any of the bolded part is true. Hairston is the worst rebounder of our 4 active bigs. And he seems to have terrible hands (fumbles tons of balls out of bounds). And while he does take plenty of charges, he also takes plenty of blocking fouls while trying to take charges.

Hairston clearly tries hard and is more than willing to do the dirty work. But let's not overstate his effectiveness.

If Hairston can settle down and get better and catching the ball and going up strong, and if he can start consistently hitting the 15 footer, he'll be a very valuable role player. But I don't think we're quite there yet.

Thank you for recognizing this. Josh is actually a poor rebounder and is nowhere the defender of a lance Thomas. I've got to believe Amile did something really bad to not warrant playing him I. 2nd half. I thought he should have played over the 4 guard lineup.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-11-2013, 11:15 AM
Josh plays hard, he plays physical, and in some games we need his contributions. BC was one of those games.

But come on. Josh is nowhere near the player Lance Thomas was for Duke (or is in the NBA). Lance started more than 100 games for us while Josh has started four. Josh is nowhere near the player NDPOY Billy King was for Duke. There is no rational measure that would suggest otherwise. So let's let Josh be Josh and move on.

I am not hating on the way Josh plays. He is who he is and I let it slide. I guess my only issue is I always remind myself that the kid was a top 20 recruit out of high school. I see him 3 years down the road and he has no jump shot, doesn't have any post moves, can't put the ball on the floor, and he isn't a great athlete. What did the scouts see that we don't see? Has he just not gotten better during this time? He transferred to Montrose Christian to play ball I think his senior year and was terrific and I for one was extremely excited for him to come in but we haven't seen really any high returns. I don't mean to bash Josh or anything, that's not my intention. I just remember how highly touted he was and laugh at what his role has come to. What happened?

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 11:24 AM
Thank you for recognizing this. Josh is actually a poor rebounder and is nowhere the defender of a lance Thomas.

Now I think we're going too far the other way. I agree Josh is not nearly the defender Lance Thomas was for us, and his rebounding is not a plus skill, but he's not a "poor rebounder." His offensive rebounding percentage of 8.6% is exactly the same as Ryan's and better than three out of four seasons Kyle put up (7.8, 10.6, 6.9, 7.9). His defensive rebounding percentage of 10.2% is similar to what we got from Lance's senior year (10.9%). Now, none of those guys were necessarily starting or starring because of their rebounding, but they were at least adequate, and so is Josh. He just happens to be the least successful rebounder out of our current bigs.

roywhite
02-11-2013, 11:25 AM
I am not hating on the way Josh plays. He is who he is and I let it slide. I guess my only issue is I always remind myself that the kid was a top 20 recruit out of high school. I see him 3 years down the road and he has no jump shot, doesn't have any post moves, can't put the ball on the floor, and he isn't a great athlete. What did the scouts see that we don't see? Has he just not gotten better during this time? He transferred to Montrose Christian to play ball I think his senior year and was terrific and I for one was extremely excited for him to come in but we haven't seen really any high returns. I don't mean to bash Josh or anything, that's not my intention. I just remember how highly touted he was and laugh at what his role has come to. What happened?

Josh was ranked #32 in the final RSCI composite for that class, and was not a McD All-American. Kyrie was #3 and Tyler Thomas was outside the top 100, I believe.

It was a good class, and some players in that range of rankings have done well, but some have not.

Inexact science, and all that.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 11:35 AM
I am not hating on the way Josh plays. He is who he is and I let it slide. I guess my only issue is I always remind myself that the kid was a top 20 recruit out of high school. I see him 3 years down the road and he has no jump shot, doesn't have any post moves, can't put the ball on the floor, and he isn't a great athlete. What did the scouts see that we don't see? Has he just not gotten better during this time? He transferred to Montrose Christian to play ball I think his senior year and was terrific and I for one was extremely excited for him to come in but we haven't seen really any high returns. I don't mean to bash Josh or anything, that's not my intention. I just remember how highly touted he was and laugh at what his role has come to. What happened?

According to RSCI, Josh was ranked 32 out of high school. That's still pretty good, but there's a huge difference between a top 20 recruit and a top 30 recruit (and Josh didn't even quite make it there). Since they started the RSCI, we've only recruited two other big men ranked between 30 and 40, and neither of those (#30 Michael Thompson and #39 Eric Boateng) worked out particularly well for us either. Ultimately, it's very difficult to predict college success for high school players ranked higher than 20.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 11:37 AM
Tyler Thomas was outside the top 100, I believe.

Tyler Thornton was, too. ;) (Also, Kyrie was tied for #2 with Jared Sullinger, both behind Harrison Barnes.)

gumbomoop
02-11-2013, 11:38 AM
Long thread, good conversation and civil disagreements. I hope the following constitutes constructive criticism.

Quinn - Perhaps both cause and effect, he has yet fully to divest himself of the unhelpful habit of lowering his head and scowling more or less at himself after he messes up. No good at all, contradicts "next play" [next play, right now, not next play, sometime pretty soon], and contributes to bad-moodiness. I assume the staff will notice this on film and bring it to Quinn's attention.

Tyler [and K] - I sure hope some of K's sly wit is rubbing off on him [also us, and maybe K, too]. It's pretty obvious that Tyler has absorbed about as much of K's D-fierceness as is safe for human consumption. Hope Tyler laughs a lot off the court. [K, too.]

Josh - Bad balance, or so it seems to me. Happy feet on some screens. Josh falls down a bit too often for a solidly-built fellow. And here I am not attempting a dumb reference to flopping; rather, it strikes me that Josh does not navigate well the limited space he has out there. I wonder whether by-himself ball-handling drills would, long-term [i.e., 2013-'14], help him become marginally more graceful, just enough margin to make 2 better plays/game.

Mason - Speaking of graceful, Mason's full court is full of grace. Long-running civil debate, nevertheless, between me and several excellent posters re Mason's intermittent discombobulation. I say it's poor footwork; others contend he is too easily bumped and "crowded." I think I noticed that Ryan Anderson's nimble footwork got him out of a "crowded" situation or 2 last evening, whereas Mason's didn't, because, well, not nimble. My impression is that Mason has "learned," even since last season, several excellent post moves, but that not all of said "learning" is yet instinctual to him, when he's crowded. Mason is a fascinating combo of super-athlete [that out-of-nowhere O-rebound over-head backwards slam v. Md and Len] and two-left-feet-stepping-on-each-other. Anderson has better footwork, crowded or not. With better footwork instincts, Mason would be an even stronger POY-guy. Gotta admit, pretty strong, as he is. Not complaining. Just trying to figure out the discombobulation.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 11:52 AM
I think I noticed that Ryan Anderson's nimble footwork got him out of a "crowded" situation or 2 last evening, whereas Mason's didn't, because, well, not nimble.

Well, Mason got out of a few crowded situations, too, at least one time for an eye-opening dunk. He just couldn't get out of all of them. Comparing his performance in such matters to Anderson's last night is unfair, though. Mason was triple-teamed pretty much every time he touched the ball. Anderson was double-teamed a handful of times.

CDu
02-11-2013, 12:08 PM
Well, Mason got out of a few crowded situations, too, at least one time for an eye-opening dunk. He just couldn't get out of all of them. Comparing his performance in such matters to Anderson's last night is unfair, though. Mason was triple-teamed pretty much every time he touched the ball. Anderson was double-teamed a handful of times.

And on numerous occasions, Anderson was being guarded by a MUCH smaller player (thanks to some questionable switches).

That being said, I'll agree that Mason's footwork leaves something to be desired. That, along with his horrible shooting touch, makes his season all the more impressive. He's simply willing baskets to go in for a lot of his points.

Rich
02-11-2013, 12:13 PM
I watched the whole game, and while I agree the negativity around here is (as is usually the case) misplaced, I disagree that BC is "bursting with raw talent." To me, they looked like a more athletic Ivy League team. I thought Anderson and Hanlon were both pretty good, but nobody on that team looks to me to be a first round draft pick. They are well-coached, and I suspect in two years when they have five seniors and two juniors they'll be a pretty dangerous team, possibly in the top tier, as you say. But "enormous talent"? I'd say based on raw talent alone they're in the lower tier of the ACC.

I'm not going to comment on BC's basketball talent, but I will say that their team doctor should be a dermatologist. I hate to pick on a bunch of 18-20 year olds, but man, as a group they have bad skin!

Indoor66
02-11-2013, 12:33 PM
Oh, I didn't take it that way at all. I think he felt very lucky to escape with the W tonight.

What is it they always say? It ain't how, it's how many. We got just enough.

sporthenry
02-11-2013, 12:36 PM
I watched the whole game, and while I agree the negativity around here is (as is usually the case) misplaced, I disagree that BC is "bursting with raw talent." To me, they looked like a more athletic Ivy League team. I thought Anderson and Hanlon were both pretty good, but nobody on that team looks to me to be a first round draft pick. They are well-coached, and I suspect in two years when they have five seniors and two juniors they'll be a pretty dangerous team, possibly in the top tier, as you say. But "enormous talent"? I'd say based on raw talent alone they're in the lower tier of the ACC.

Most teams don't have potential first round players and having first round players isn't an indication of success. UK might have 4 first rounders and see where that got them.

Anderson is an all ACC type player. He'll be one of the favorites to be ACC POY next year. Hanlan is averaging 14 points as a freshman. Against Miami, he just put up 20 points on 8-14 shots despite going 0-4 from 3. I don't know enough about the bottom tier of the ACC but those 2 kids are going to be good. So you add in that at this point in the season, these guys are getting experience, playing a game at home, and hitting shots, and this is what you get.

Add in all of the turnover expected in the ACC and BC might return some of the top talent in the league. Now this discounts recruits a bit since they are a crap shoot but that team could be a force especially with many big men leaving the conference.

Kedsy
02-11-2013, 01:04 PM
Most teams don't have potential first round players and having first round players isn't an indication of success.

I never said it was. I was responding to a poster who said BC was "bursting with raw talent." In my opinion, they're not. As I said in my earlier post, I think two years from now BC has a good chance of being pretty successful in the ACC. They just don't have "enormous talent," that's all.

Lid
02-11-2013, 01:16 PM
I hate to pick on a bunch of 18-20 year olds, but...
Then don't pick on them. It's a lucky kid who comes through adolescence and young adulthood without any awkwardness. Heaven knows there's enough to pick on about their games, instead. I wasn't thrilled to hear what sounded like a derogatory chant towards Mason during the game, also. (Hopefully my ears were deceiving me, though -- we know now how common that is! :) )

Li_Duke
02-11-2013, 01:39 PM
According to RSCI, Josh was ranked 32 out of high school. That's still pretty good, but there's a huge difference between a top 20 recruit and a top 30 recruit (and Josh didn't even quite make it there). Since they started the RSCI, we've only recruited two other big men ranked between 30 and 40, and neither of those (#30 Michael Thompson and #39 Eric Boateng) worked out particularly well for us either. Ultimately, it's very difficult to predict college success for high school players ranked higher than 20.

I think some of us gives to much credence to what recruiting sites say. According to ESPN at the time:
- "Josh is a 6-9 PF ranked 19th overall in his class." Duke says he's only 6-7 now. Bones do tend to shrink in size and density as you grow older.
- "Plays with great energy and effort on both ends of the floor." I'd say that's accurate.
- "Not afraid to give up his body for the charge." That's accurate too.
- "Attacks the glass and rebounds with authority." Ok, probably not too far off.
- "Very confident in shooting and knocking down the mid range jumper and even a three with needed time and space." Confidence - check. Hits mid range jumpers - if he's lucky. 3s - how much time and space are we talking?
- "Skill package and athleticism make him a complete player at both ends of the floor."
- "What sets Josh apart is his ability to rebound the ball and start the break himself, all the while finding teammates ahead for layups."
- "Tough matchup for any opponent. His ability to step out and stretch the defense with his shot or drive combined with a knack for scoring in the post make this young man one of the top frontcourt scorers in his class."
- "Menacing combination of size and athletic ability. He finishes everything around the basket as he is both quick off his feet and a tremendous vertical leaper."
- "Hairston scores inside and out but is more affective when he faces. He can put the ball on the floor and attack the lane both ways but prefers going right. Hairston likes to drive right and spin back left in the lane to get a clear path to the rim. In the post he likes the left box for power drop step and turn shots over his right shoulder."
- "Blocked shots all day long."

Ok, after reading all that, I'm ready to start a "Why doesn't Josh get more playing time?" thread. I also now agree with everyone who said after the Arizona loss in 2011 that we should have put Hairston in to stop Derrick Williams. Big mistake on Coach K's part.

dukelifer
02-11-2013, 02:05 PM
No way Indiana will be #1

Apparently a way. You are your last game.

WakeDevil
02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
Cook didn't undercut anyone. The player was already falling by that time. On the other hand, maybe someone would like to explain what Cook was doing pushing the player he was guarding out of bounds on the final play. He failed to block out, so....

Fast forward to the 1:50 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL92OY6oDfI

El_Diablo
02-11-2013, 02:28 PM
I wasn't thrilled to hear what sounded like a derogatory chant towards Mason during the game, also. (Hopefully my ears were deceiving me, though -- we know now how common that is! :) )

The chant was pretty clear: "Mason's ugly."

78Devil
02-11-2013, 02:33 PM
LI Duke -- Hairston is an important part of this team, as we need his intensity -- and just as importantly we need his fouls to give to help keep others out of foul trouble.

But one reason, in my view, that he doesn't get more minutes is that he doesn't seem to have a good handle on the ball. On both rebounding and shooting, he seems too anxious sometimes and loses the handle or misses the shot badly. Do you remember how Zoubek used to be? I think Hairston has some of the same issues, but not as bad. And, like Zoubek, they don't seem to have gotten better through his junior year. But also like Zoubek, I am hopeful that something "turns the switch" in his senior season (if not before, which would be nice!). Maybe its that "game slows down" thing that people talk about, where the flow comes to you. At any rate, I am one of those who had very high hopes for Hairston his freshman year which remain unfulfilled. But I remain hopeful!

oldnavy
02-11-2013, 05:10 PM
Cook didn't undercut anyone. The player was already falling by that time. On the other hand, maybe someone would like to explain what Cook was doing pushing the player he was guarding out of bounds on the final play. He failed to block out, so....

Fast forward to the 1:50 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL92OY6oDfI

I dunno, as an unpartial observer I might say that he committed two fouls on that particular play.... but I'm not, so I think that the refs did an outstanding job!! :D

Also, many fouls by BC in that game went uncalled as well, especially on Mason.

juise
02-11-2013, 05:30 PM
Also, many fouls by BC in that game went uncalled as well, especially on Mason.

I didn't read the in-game thread so I don't know if this was discussed, but there was one blatant foul on Mason that frustrated me. With 10:33 left in the second half Mason missed a short jumper, the rebound was tipped up, and eventually Josh was called for a foul. Mason was stuck in an impressive Olivier Hanlan arm lock and would have had a decent chance to get to the ball otherwise.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-11-2013, 05:55 PM
The chant was pretty clear: "Mason's ugly."

Are you sure the chant wasn't "Mason go grieve?" which was probably a derogatory reference to something somehow.

I mean, can you prove it wasn't? :cool:

Let's go spread the word on Twitter! :D

Andre Buckner Fan
02-11-2013, 05:57 PM
I never said it was. I was responding to a poster who said BC was "bursting with raw talent." In my opinion, they're not. As I said in my earlier post, I think two years from now BC has a good chance of being pretty successful in the ACC. They just don't have "enormous talent," that's all.

How then do you explain their very near wins over Miami, Duke and NCSU? Three flukes?

CDu
02-11-2013, 06:13 PM
I didn't read the in-game thread so I don't know if this was discussed, but there was one blatant foul on Mason that frustrated me. With 10:33 left in the second half Mason missed a short jumper, the rebound was tipped up, and eventually Josh was called for a foul. Mason was stuck in an impressive Olivier Hanlan arm lock and would have had a decent chance to get to the ball otherwise.

Yes. This was one of many egregious no calls made throughout the game by the refs (some in favor of Duke, some in favor of BC).

sporthenry
02-11-2013, 06:24 PM
I never said it was. I was responding to a poster who said BC was "bursting with raw talent." In my opinion, they're not. As I said in my earlier post, I think two years from now BC has a good chance of being pretty successful in the ACC. They just don't have "enormous talent," that's all.

Well perhaps they don't have enormous talent but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who said Miami was "bursting with talent" before the year. BC has a dominant big man who is a tough match up and last night at least they had a guard who pretty much got what he wanted. Whether this was just a great game by him or a lackluster game by our perimeter defense but he outplayed Cook who many here like to consider an All ACC caliber guard.

And I think someone mentioned earlier that this team was just a glorified Cornell team. I don't see how that is relevant. Wisconsin has been a glorified Cornell team for years and we all know how that ended. And I'd say with Anderson and Hanlan, those guys are more dynamic than anyone Donahue had at Cornell but between Donahue and Bennett and the way the game is going, we should expect a lot more Big 10 type basketball with tough defense, slow pace, and a physical game which has consistently made up for talent gaps.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 06:30 PM
Why are we still arguing about whether BC is or isn't any good (they're not). The things that caused problems for us yesterday are well known: We have a slim margin for error with Ryan out, and our guys had a tough travel situation yesterday that clearly affected their play. Despite those challenges, they gutted out the win in the closing minutes. I don't think we learned anything about the team yesterday that we didn't already know. Time to move along.

El_Diablo
02-11-2013, 06:44 PM
Are you sure the chant wasn't "Mason go grieve?" which was probably a derogatory reference to something somehow.

I mean, can you prove it wasn't? :cool:

Let's go spread the word on Twitter! :D

You're right. But now I think it was "Mason's puppy" (referring to a family pet who passed away a few years ago). What a terrible group of people those BC students are.

davekay1971
02-11-2013, 06:47 PM
The chant was pretty clear: "Mason's ugly."

1) My sister in law would disagree. She's 18 and thinks Mason is "hot". But she also thinks that Miles is "hotter". No word yet on Marshall...not enough PT
2) That chant would be rich coming from Boston College. All I'll say about the BC guys is "accutane".
3) Given Mason's performance yesterday, I think the chant MUST have been "Mason's gravy." Because that's what he was in the second half...gravy.

ncexnyc
02-11-2013, 07:19 PM
I voiced my concerns about this game at the end of the NCSU thread. I felt we could suffer an emotional letdown and it certainly appeared we did. Throw in BCís ugly style of play, along with the travel issues, caused by the weather and we saw what it all added up to. A Duke win!

Youíve got to love Masonís play. While he may not be the vocal leader some people are clamoring for, heís doing it on the court. Those clutch free throws were awesome and I wouldnít lie to say I was shocked he buried them. I also was extremely impressed when the BC player embarrassed him and Mason sprinted down the court and repaid the favor.

Our backcourt, which had been lights out these past few games, did just enough to help us seal the deal. Seth was near perfect from the charity stripe. Quinn hit that huge 3 at the end, and Rasheed played great D on Sir Lawrence on that final play.

Iím quite happy that the Bruise Brothers played some big minutes in this game and that they contributed to the win. I have to admit some of you made me laugh with your attempts to talk up Lanceís game. Junior Lance didnít get much love on this board and the term SPASTIC ENERGY was often used to describe his game. Heck, even his senior year he was relegated to the scrap heap by a number of posters who anointed Miles and Mason as THE Duke frontcourt after that Sunday night war against Wake. It never ceases to amaze me that both Tyler and Josh get dismissed as the proverbial Red Headed Step Children of this team, but Coach K continually calls their number. Even Bardo commented on the contributions made by both players, but our own fans only want to focus on Tylerís turnover, while at the same time forgetting to mention the steal just prior to the TO. Go figure.

I caught a lot of grief on the Ryan Kelly thread when I said something along the lines that we arenít as good as we thought we were, if we canít overcome this injury. Last night is exactly what Iím talking about. We didnít have our A game, but still came away with the win. Great teams find a way to get it done and we did last night.

Are we great? Probably not, but I donít think there is a great team out there in college basketball this year and I do believe that on any given night we can beat anyone out there.

This next game will let us know if Sunday was a shanked ball or if we have deeper concerns to worry about. Iím of the opinion that last night was just one of those games where the deck was stacked against us and yet we still prevailed.

Newton_14
02-11-2013, 07:29 PM
People have used some very creative logic in some of these posts. Folks, losing on a last-second shot at Illinois is more impressive than a last-second win at Boston College. The Illini are 17-8, and #41 in Pomeroy (compared to BC's #120 and State's #29). They crushed Butler, they beat Gonzaga AT Gonzaga by double digits, and they destroyed Ohio State. They are, roughly, as good as NC State. They are almost certainly better at home than NC State is on the road without Lorenzo Brown. So folks who are classifying the Illinois loss by Indiana as anywhere close to the BC win for us are not using sound logic.


Nothing creative about it, and my point remains. People who expected/demanded a blowout last night have unrealistic expectations and are really not in tune with how college hoops work. To say that because we only won by one point is a sign of some fatal flaw and impending doom is way off base.

Where teams are ranked in both the human and geek polls is not a sure sign of how a game will turn out. I think some people put way too much stock in the geek polls and even human polls to a lesser degree, and they way under estimate the human factor, which leads to a false assumption on how a game will go. Then when the game is much closer than they feel it should be, or God forbid Duke actually loses the game, they go bananas and start throwing players and team under the bus, and my personal favorite, they use the term "exposed".


On any given night in College hoops, especially on the road in conference play, almost any team can pull the upset. That's just how it is. This isn't the first good or great Duke team to have tough go of it playing an unranked conference opponent on the road. None of the past teams other than those ridiculously great Battier teams were immune to conference road struggles...

This Duke team is still good, and can still beat any team in the nation on a given night. However, without Ryan, they are much more vulnerable to being upset, especially on the road in conference. And in all honesty, without Ryan, they should be ranked somewhere between 8-10. Which is why I am glad they are not AP 1 right now. It just brings on more unrealistic expectations, and causes more angst when they drop a game somewhere along the way.

CDu
02-11-2013, 08:01 PM
Nothing creative about it, and my point remains. People who expected/demanded a blowout last night have unrealistic expectations and are really not in tune with how college hoops work. To say that because we only won by one point is a sign of some fatal flaw and impending doom is way off base.

Where teams are ranked in both the human and geek polls is not a sure sign of how a game will turn out. I think some people put way too much stock in the geek polls and even human polls to a lesser degree, and they way under estimate the human factor, which leads to a false assumption on how a game will go. Then when the game is much closer than they feel it should be, or God forbid Duke actually loses the game, they go bananas and start throwing players and team under the bus, and my personal favorite, they use the term "exposed".


On any given night in College hoops, especially on the road in conference play, almost any team can pull the upset. That's just how it is. This isn't the first good or great Duke team to have tough go of it playing an unranked conference opponent on the road. None of the past teams other than those ridiculously great Battier teams were immune to conference road struggles...

This Duke team is still good, and can still beat any team in the nation on a given night. However, without Ryan, they are much more vulnerable to being upset, especially on the road in conference. And in all honesty, without Ryan, they should be ranked somewhere between 8-10. Which is why I am glad they are not AP 1 right now. It just brings on more unrealistic expectations, and causes more angst when they drop a game somewhere along the way.

No disagreement with any of that. But what you have just said is an entirely different statement than lumping the BC close win in the same category as the Illinois close loss. The two are not similar.

Troublemaker
02-11-2013, 08:19 PM
I look at it this way. If I had the power to change last night's result to a Duke blowout, would I do it?

No, I would not.

I would not want to erase from Quinn's memory bank the clutch 3 he hit. I would not want to erase from Mason's memory bank the clutch free throws he hit. Likewise, I feel good that the team can draw from its collective memory a 5-point comeback with two minutes left.

Those memories may prove to be very useful in the future.

Would I want Duke to always struggle against bad teams? Of course not.

But, if it's a rare occurrence that can be explained by unusual circumstances, ends in victory, and the players get to bank valuable memories... what's the big deal?

sporthenry
02-11-2013, 08:35 PM
No disagreement with any of that. But what you have just said is an entirely different statement than lumping the BC close win in the same category as the Illinois close loss. The two are not similar.

But the problem with this is that this is shifting the goal posts half way through the season. Nobody really batted any eyelash when Indiana squeaked out a 4 point win at Iowa. Now all of a sudden, we are concerned with how you win?

The standard with polls is you win and you go up, you lose and you go down. It doesn't take into account the difficulty from week to week b/c it would be near impossible. It doesn't take into account that your team might have have laid an egg. That is the committee's job. And if this was the new standard, I'm sure I could find a ton of other examples where this standard wasn't used.

Newton_14
02-11-2013, 08:38 PM
No disagreement with any of that. But what you have just said is an entirely different statement than lumping the BC close win in the same category as the Illinois close loss. The two are not similar.

We can agree to disagree, but you took the Illinois angle and compared them to BC. That was not my point at all. I was not saying Illinois and BC are equals. (though they are not that far apart, and BC could certainly beat them at home)

On paper and per the geek polls, and in the minds of those who throw out the human factor, Indiana is "supposed" to win that game comfortably. And actually they were up comfortably in that game if I recall correctly. But they lost, to a 2-7 team. I get that the Illini losses were to good teams but they still lost. NC State could have easily won 5 of the road games they lost. But they lost all 5 instead. They were pretty much one play from winning all 5 games. But again, that's not my point

The point was Indiana was playing a team it was "supposed" to beat and lost. Duke was playing a BC team they were "supposed" to beat comfortably. They snuck out a 1 point win. Both Indiana and Duke are still really good teams. The games with Illinois/BC does not change that.

Wander
02-11-2013, 10:07 PM
1. Duke played really poorly against BC.
2. Duke is still a very good team.

I think the basic problem here is that a lot of people are having trouble accepting that both of the above statements can be true at the same time.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:01 PM
1. Duke played really poorly against BC.
2. Duke is still a very good team.

I think the basic problem here is that a lot of people are having trouble accepting that both of the above statements can be true at the same time.

Without Ryan, we're a good team, but not very good. We're 1-2 against probable NCAA tournament teams since he got hurt. Actually, it's probably 0-2, because NC State isn't a tournament team without Lorenzo Brown. So since Ryan got hurt, we're really 6-0 against non-NCAA teams, and 0-2 against tournament teams. That's not "very good" in my book.

We'll know a lot more about how good this new team really is when we see how they do in the last four game of our ACC schedule - at Virginia, home against Miami, home against VT (the only gimme of this stretch), and at UNC. We may very well win our next four and enter that stretch 12-2 in conference, but don't let that fool you. The middle part of our conference schedule is very soft.

Kedsy
02-12-2013, 12:39 AM
How then do you explain their very near wins over Miami, Duke and NCSU? Three flukes?

One of the great things about basketball is you can play the game well even if you aren't the most physically gifted guy on the court. You certainly don't need great talent to pull off an upset, and especially not a near upset. Or even three. In fact some teams win a lot of games without "bursting with raw talent." They simply play good, smart, mostly mistake-free and fundamental basketball.

Kedsy
02-12-2013, 12:44 AM
Well perhaps they don't have enormous talent but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who said Miami was "bursting with talent" before the year.

I completely disagree. Ever since Durand Scott and Reggie Johnson got there, and certainly by last season, a lot of people talked about how talented Miami's players were but that for some reason they never put it together. From a "raw talent" perspective, I wouldn't consider this year's BC team to even be mentioned in the same discussion as last year's Miami team.

CDu
02-12-2013, 06:58 AM
We can agree to disagree, but you took the Illinois angle and compared them to BC. That was not my point at all. I was not saying Illinois and BC are equals. (though they are not that far apart, and BC could certainly beat them at home).

They are MUCH further apart than you seem to realize. Illinois is much nearer to State than they are to BC. And Illinois would probably beat BC in BC (heck, they walloped Gonzaga in Spokane). Your post here is exactly why I made my post, because you (and some others - I don't mean to single you out) don't seem to realize how much better Illinois is than BC.

roywhite
02-12-2013, 08:05 AM
People have used some very creative logic in some of these posts. Folks, losing on a last-second shot at Illinois is more impressive than a last-second win at Boston College. The Illini are 17-8, and #41 in Pomeroy (compared to BC's #120 and State's #29). They crushed Butler, they beat Gonzaga AT Gonzaga by double digits, and they destroyed Ohio State. They are, roughly, as good as NC State. They are almost certainly better at home than NC State is on the road without Lorenzo Brown. So folks who are classifying the Illinois loss by Indiana as anywhere close to the BC win for us are not using sound logic.




No disagreement with any of that. But what you have just said is an entirely different statement than lumping the BC close win in the same category as the Illinois close loss. The two are not similar.


We can agree to disagree, but you took the Illinois angle and compared them to BC. That was not my point at all. I was not saying Illinois and BC are equals. (though they are not that far apart, and BC could certainly beat them at home)




They are MUCH further apart than you seem to realize. Illinois is much nearer to State than they are to BC. And Illinois would probably beat BC in BC (heck, they walloped Gonzaga in Spokane). Your post here is exactly why I made my post, because you (and some others - I don't mean to single you out) don't seem to realize how much better Illinois is than BC.

Haven't you worn this point out?

CDu
02-12-2013, 08:10 AM
Haven't you worn this point out?

Apparently not, since some folks still don't seem to be getting it.

That being said, if it is annoying you so much, I'll stop talking about it.

sagegrouse
02-12-2013, 08:52 AM
Apparently not, since some folks still don't seem to be getting it.

That being said, if it is annoying you so much, I'll stop talking about it.

Hey, CDu, I can understand your insistence that Ill-Ind. was more impressive for Indiana, although a loss, than Duke-BC for Duke, although a win. But sometimes games are almost biblical in nature. Consider the "labourers of the eleventh hour." (Matthew 20) The labourers hired at the eleventh hour were paid as much (a penny) as those hired earlier. The murmuring of those labourers who "have borne the burden and heat of the day" was dismissed by the householder, saying the earlier workers had also agreed to work for a penny.

Moral: last minute wins count just as much as early blowouts (a penny each, I suppose).

I thought Duke played unbelievably well the last two minutes and that play won the game.

sagegrouse

CDu
02-12-2013, 10:06 AM
Hey, CDu, I can understand your insistence that Ill-Ind. was more impressive for Indiana, although a loss, than Duke-BC for Duke, although a win. But sometimes games are almost biblical in nature. Consider the "labourers of the eleventh hour." (Matthew 20) The labourers hired at the eleventh hour were paid as much (a penny) as those hired earlier. The murmuring of those labourers who "have borne the burden and heat of the day" was dismissed by the householder, saying the earlier workers had also agreed to work for a penny.

Moral: last minute wins count just as much as early blowouts (a penny each, I suppose).

I thought Duke played unbelievably well the last two minutes and that play won the game.

sagegrouse

Sure sage, a win is a win, and ultimately that's all that matters in the long run. No disagreement there - my point of contention was simply people underrating Illinois, and trying to give perspective.

sporthenry
02-12-2013, 10:58 AM
I completely disagree. Ever since Durand Scott and Reggie Johnson got there, and certainly by last season, a lot of people talked about how talented Miami's players were but that for some reason they never put it together. From a "raw talent" perspective, I wouldn't consider this year's BC team to even be mentioned in the same discussion as last year's Miami team.

Their freshman year, Miami went 4-12. Their sophomore year, they went 6-10. As I already documented, BC has a brutal schedule even in the 18 game schedule. I suspect in a year or two, we'll be talking about Hanlan and Anderson as players with "raw talent."

Kedsy
02-12-2013, 11:08 AM
Their freshman year, Miami went 4-12. Their sophomore year, they went 6-10. As I already documented, BC has a brutal schedule even in the 18 game schedule. I suspect in a year or two, we'll be talking about Hanlan and Anderson as players with "raw talent."

You continue to equate "raw talent" with wins and losses, and that's where we disagree. Almost everyone says this year's Kentucky squad exudes raw talent, quite possibly the most talent in the country, but by UK standards they're having a bit of a down year. I clearly recall during Scott's (and Johnson's) freshman and sophomore seasons people discussing how talented they were but they just couldn't turn that talent into wins.

Hanlan and Anderson are good players, but what we'll be talking about in two years is how "crafty" and "well coached" BC is. I strongly doubt anybody will be raving about their "raw talent."

oldnavy
02-12-2013, 11:14 AM
You continue to equate "raw talent" with wins and losses, and that's where we disagree. Almost everyone says this year's Kentucky squad exudes raw talent, quite possibly the most talent in the country, but by UK standards they're having a bit of a down year. I clearly recall during Scott's (and Johnson's) freshman and sophomore seasons people discussing how talented they were but they just couldn't turn that talent into wins.

Hanlan and Anderson are good players, but what we'll be talking about in two years is how "crafty" and "well coached" BC is. I strongly doubt anybody will be raving about their "raw talent."

I agree. But, I will say this, talent involves much more than flashy plays and the like. I have had countless discussions with my son, trying to get him to see that you do not have to be able to jump out of the gym, or be the fastest player in the world the be talented or "athletic".

So, the fact that most folks may not talk about how talented a player or group of players are may be the result of a bias or knowledge gap about what basketball talent really is.

BlueandWhite
02-12-2013, 11:27 AM
They are MUCH further apart than you seem to realize. Illinois is much nearer to State than they are to BC. And Illinois would probably beat BC in BC (heck, they walloped Gonzaga in Spokane). Your post here is exactly why I made my post, because you (and some others - I don't mean to single you out) don't seem to realize how much better Illinois is than BC.

What is missing in all of this discussion is that the Big Ten is really a stronger conference overall than the ACC this year. Seems much more likely to me that several Big Ten teams could advance to the regionals, or farther, in the NCAAs, compared to the ACC. Honestly, it is a down year overall for the conference.

Let's enjoy the ride for Duke, and hopefully Ryan will return soon and they can finish strong -- perhaps win the ACC tournament and, just maybe, put together a run in the NCAAs. The big dance is likely to be another crazy (and exciting) tournament with very unexpected Final Four matchups, perhaps again with no #1 seeds, similar to what happened in 2011.

sporthenry
02-12-2013, 11:30 AM
You continue to equate "raw talent" with wins and losses, and that's where we disagree. Almost everyone says this year's Kentucky squad exudes raw talent, quite possibly the most talent in the country, but by UK standards they're having a bit of a down year. I clearly recall during Scott's (and Johnson's) freshman and sophomore seasons people discussing how talented they were but they just couldn't turn that talent into wins.

Hanlan and Anderson are good players, but what we'll be talking about in two years is how "crafty" and "well coached" BC is. I strongly doubt anybody will be raving about their "raw talent."

Well Anderson is one of three underclassmen who I saw mentioned on the ACC midseason awards stories. And both Hanlan and Rahon got some mention on the All Freshman awards from some that I read.

And that UK team we mention has 4 first rounders on their roster. Miami could theoretically have nobody drafted this year. So I'm not sure where their "raw" talent exists.

And it does seem that people are mentioning now how talented Anderson/Hanlan have been and games like the ones against Duke or Miami are just evidence of how they can't turn that into wins. I guess time will tell but if Rahon, Hanlan and Anderson stay, I suspect you'll see something like Miami has done when they are upperclassmen.

CDu
02-12-2013, 11:46 AM
Well Anderson is one of three underclassmen who I saw mentioned on the ACC midseason awards stories. And both Hanlan and Rahon got some mention on the All Freshman awards from some that I read.

And that UK team we mention has 4 first rounders on their roster. Miami could theoretically have nobody drafted this year. So I'm not sure where their "raw" talent exists.

And it does seem that people are mentioning now how talented Anderson/Hanlan have been and games like the ones against Duke or Miami are just evidence of how they can't turn that into wins. I guess time will tell but if Rahon, Hanlan and Anderson stay, I suspect you'll see something like Miami has done when they are upperclassmen.

I'd be shocked if Miami doesn't have at least one player (Kadji) drafted this year, and I'd be a bit surprised if another (Scott) doesn't get drafted, too. Johnson is a trickier case, as he never did get in shape enough to be of interest to the NBA. But I think it clear that his skills are of NBA quality, even if his body isn't.

As for Anderson and Hanlan: yes, they are talented. So are McKie and Harris of Wake, and they are veterans. Yet Wake is still a bottom half of the ACC team.

ncexnyc
02-12-2013, 12:00 PM
As for Anderson and Hanlan: yes, they are talented. So are McKie and Harris of Wake, and they are veterans. Yet Wake is still a bottom half of the ACC team.

Equating the Wake players to those at BC isn't fair. There was quite a lot going on up in Winston Salem which took its toll on that team. Less turmoil and player turnover and that team would surely look different right now.

sporthenry
02-12-2013, 12:08 PM
I'd be shocked if Miami doesn't have at least one player (Kadji) drafted this year, and I'd be a bit surprised if another (Scott) doesn't get drafted, too. Johnson is a trickier case, as he never did get in shape enough to be of interest to the NBA. But I think it clear that his skills are of NBA quality, even if his body isn't.

Most mocks I've read either have none or Kadji as a 2nd rounder. I know we've gone through the importance of mocks, but they are the best gauge at the moment. And I can't help but wonder that the fact Kadji is older than Durant will be held against him. He looks like someone who could be drafted like a Bernard James to help a team instantly but I have to think the fact he will be 25 will hurt him. Now they could go on an LSU run and have a guy or two shoot up the boards but as it stands now, the NBA guys don't find them "bursting with raw talent."