MBB: (8) Miami 87, North Carolina 61

[throatybeard]

So are we rooting for Carolina, so that a loss brings Miami back to the ACC pack, or are we rooting for Miami to run them out of the gym, like they did to us?

[uh_no]

So are we rooting for Carolina, so that a loss brings Miami back to the ACC pack, or are we rooting for Miami to run them out of the gym, like they did to us?

9F

miami can lose to someone else

9F

[Duvall]

So are we rooting for Carolina, so that a loss brings Miami back to the ACC pack, or are we rooting for Miami to run them out of the gym, like they did to us?

Might as well root for Miami, because UNC looks seriously outclassed. Why set yourself up for disappointment?

[JBDuke]

Here's an optimistic way to look at the game: either Carolina loses, or the team in front of Duke in the ACC standings loses. Neither is a bad outcome!

[throatybeard]

I think Sylvia Hatchell designed these Tar Heel uniforms.

[Indoor66]

I think Sylvia Hatchell designed these Tar Heel uniforms.

Nah, even she has a better sense of style than that.

[Merlindevildog91]

So did they all change their last names to "Tar Heels" to make it easier for the tutors or to simplify the Swahili class seating chart? Or both?

[slower]

Hopefully, they will eventually realize that it MIGHT be a good idea to guard Hairston and Bullock from 3-point range.

[gumbomoop]

Here's an optimistic way to look at the game: either Carolina loses, or the team in front of Duke in the ACC standings loses. Neither is a bad outcome!

Can't disagree with this. Although neither is a bad outcome, I still strongly prefer that Miami win. Beyond 9F 9F 9F, it's better that UNC, NCSt, UVa, maybe Md, lose, beat up each other. And also that Duke win all or most of its matchups with those teams, no guaranteed thing at all. Miami's schedule after today is pretty easy, except for their tough road game in CIS, so they're the likely 1-seed in the ACCT. I want Duke's competitors for the 2-seed to lose.

[uh_no]

Hopefully, they will eventually realize that it MIGHT be a good idea to guard Hairston and Bullock from 3-point range.

seeing as they're up 17 at halftime, I think they're doing just fine....

[Indoor66]

Can they both lose? It is 44-27 Miami - at the 1/2.

[CBDUKE]

So did they all change their last names to "Tar Heels" to make it easier for the tutors or to simplify the Swahili class seating chart? Or both?

We are wearing the same style uniforms when we go to Maryland.

[uh_no]

We are wearing the same style uniforms when we go to Maryland.

got to do something to prove we can rival underarmour in the "ugliest uniform" category

[slower]

seeing as they're up 17 at halftime, I think they're doing just fine....

Yep. It was closer when I posted.

[CameronBlue]

Nah, even she has a better sense of style than that.

Besides she buys her clothes off the rack at Talbots.

[TruBlu]

got to do something to prove we can rival underarmour in the "ugliest uniform" category

Our will not have "Tar Heels", nor will they be smurf blue, so no way ours will rival them for ugliest uniform.

[Indoor66]

Besides she buys her clothes off the rack at Talbots.

...and I thought it was Rose's.

[JasonEvans]

Ummm, it is 5 minutes into the 2nd half and Miami has not shot a free throw.

Of course, neither has UNC.

WOW-- I can't recall a game where neither team shot a FT for this long. This is insane!

-Jason

[JasonEvans]

Ummm, it is 5 minutes into the 2nd half and Miami has not shot a free throw.

Of course, neither has UNC.

WOW-- I can't recall a game where neither team shot a FT for this long. This is insane!

-Jason

Stat jinx... Miami just shot 4 FTs.

[uh_no]

Ummm, it is 5 minutes into the 2nd half and Miami has not shot a free throw.

Of course, neither has UNC.

WOW-- I can't recall a game where neither team shot a FT for this long. This is insane!

-Jason

miami is 4-4 on the game....


unless you're talking about just the second half, in which case, wisconsin and michigan went 8 minutes before either went to the line

[porkpa]

The Tar Holes are getting their collective butts kicked.

[Newton_14]

Word to James McAdoo> You cannot dunk on Kenny Kadji. Please stop trying it son, you are embarrassing yourself. SMH

[devildeac]

Miami lead only 26 now. C'mon, canes, start making some 3s:rolleyes:;) .

[dukelifer]

Granted UNC has issues- but Miami has a very good team. It remains to be seen if they can win like this outside the league.

[sporthenry]

Miami will be one of if not the hottest team in the league going into the NCAAT. They are going to be a favorite of many to get to the F4. Still not sure how I feel about them though.

[devildeac]

I'm officially worried now. Canes only beat unc by 26 and they beat us by 27. By the transitive property, does that mean...

(jk, folks, jk)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I didn't get to see the first half, but maybe I was lucky. That was ugly.

Miami is one of the best teams in the country, they are not just a hot team, they are solid.

UNC has so many issues this season that it's hard to pick the most important thing. Is is that they can't make shots? Limit the TO's? Play strong in the post? Guard the outside shot? Guard the penetration? Penetrate themselves? Finish around the rim?

Take your pick. They were weak in every aspect of the game today and will just have to re-group and pick up the intensity. No way they were ever going to win that game the way they played.

I don't see it as a problem of coaching either. The players are not getting it done. It was men against boys out there today.

[Bob Green]

I don't see it as a problem of coaching either. The players are not getting it done.

I disagree:

1. Strickland started, played 23 minutes and scored two points, while Hairston came off the bench and scored 11 points in 19 minutes.
2. Paige started, played 31 minutes and scored two points, while McDonald came off the bench and scored 10 points in 16 minutes.
3. Hubert started, played 12 minutes and scored two points, while Johnson came off the bench and scored 8 points in 13 minutes.

It seems to me your coach has the wrong players on the court.

[Duvall]

I disagree:

1. Strickland started, played 23 minutes and scored two points, while Hairston came off the bench and scored 11 points in 19 minutes.
2. Paige started, played 31 minutes and scored two points, while McDonald came off the bench and scored 10 points in 16 minutes.
3. Hubert started, played 12 minutes and scored two points, while Johnson came off the bench and scored 8 points in 13 minutes.

It seems to me your coach has the wrong players on the court.

Can McDonald play the point at all in a non-emergency situation?

[Bob Green]

Can McDonald play the point at all in a non-emergency situation?

McDonald and Hairston both could play the point, if Ol 'Roy would agree to play a slower pace. He will probably shake up the line-up before the Duke game but I've watched a lot of Carolina basketball this year and their problem is their rotation. Carolina's best players are not playing the most minutes. Strickland is horrible on both ends of the court but he continues to start and play major minutes, while Hairston rides the pine.

[sporthenry]

Miami is one of the best teams in the country, they are not just a hot team, they are solid.


By saying they were the hottest team in the country, it wasn't meant to take anything away from their team. They may be the most complete team in the country (although a healthy Duke team and even IU would have something to say about that). My reservations are twofold. One, teams that are usually the hottest at the beginning of February are rarely the last ones standing. And second, this team has never played in the NCAAT. Yes, they have 2 straight NIT appearances (where they didn't really perform well) but how will this team react to an NCAAT environment. How will they be able to handle the 2 games in 3 days? How will they be able to handle the crowds which sometimes are pretty dead? How will they handle the pressure that your next shot could be your last?

Additionally, they've never been the hunted. How will they handle all the kudos this team is about to receive? Will they get complacent? Will they walk into the third round versus a Wisconsin and expect them to roll over?

[cptnflash]

Well that was beautiful... watching UNC get steamrolled just never gets old, even when they're not very good to begin with.

Agree with what others have said regarding distribution of minutes - a point I've made in previous posts as well. Roy still hasn't figured out that Bullock and Hairston are his two best players. Hairston in particular should sue for malpractice. The only guy Roy seems to have confidence in is McAdoo, which is ironic considering that he's such an inefficient player (although he's certainly better than he played today... yeesh!).

[weezie]

McDonald and Hairston both could play the point, if Ol 'Roy would agree to play a slower pace.

But hey, he could use some of those timeouts to give them a breather, lolhahaha.

[OldPhiKap]

McDonald and Hairston both could play the point, if Ol 'Roy would agree to play a slower pace. He will probably shake up the line-up before the Duke game but I've watched a lot of Carolina basketball this year and their problem is their rotation. Carolina's best players are not playing the most minutes. Strickland is horrible on both ends of the court but he continues to start and play major minutes, while Hairston rides the pine.

Surely you are not suggesting that the best course of action is to play the best players the most minutes. That gets you down to, like, a seven man rotation or something. ;-)

I would not trade DBR's questioning of K's minute distribution for IC's skewering of Roy. Kinda shows why K kinda sorta maybe knows what he is doing.

Go to Hell, Carolina, go to Hell. {clap} {clap}.

[wallyman]

But hey, he could use some of those timeouts to give them a breather, lolhahaha.



Gee, I bet they had fun on IC after Duke-Miami. Heels have won the games they had to of late. No disgrace in getting your butts kicked by Miami. Thinks I'd wait at least until Wednesday and probably a good bit afterwards to dance on their grave.

[wsb3]

Nah, even she has a better sense of style than that.

I don't watch a lot of UNC so are those uniforms new? I told my girlfriend (who is somewhat of a carolina fan) what she thought..she agreed with me..those things are hideous.. I love the reference to Sylvia and her wardrobe style or lack thereof.. Yikes.

[cptnflash]

Gee, I bet they had fun on IC after Duke-Miami. Heels have won the games they had to of late. No disgrace in getting your butts kicked by Miami. Thinks I'd wait at least until Wednesday and probably a good bit afterwards to dance on their grave.

Of course they had fun on IC after our loss to Miami. Seeing your rival lose is part of what makes being a fan fun! I for one enjoyed this Carolina loss thoroughly, as I always do.

And no one is dancing on anyone's grave - although to be fair, UNC's NCAA tournament hopes are tenuous at best. Their ONLY good win is over UNLV, and even that has lost some of its lustre now that the Rebels have lost back to back games to Boise State and Fresno State. UNC has four games left against probable tournament teams - 2 against us, and one each against NC State and Virginia (I'm giving the Wahoos the benefit of the doubt here, I think they'll barely sneak into the field). Fortunately for the Heels, 3 of the 4 are at home. I think they absolutely have to go 2-2 in those four games, and probably go 3-1 in their other four games against GT, Clemson, FSU, and Maryland, if they want to be on the right side of the bubble heading into the ACC tournament. That's a fairly tall order for a team that is still trying to figure out its rotation in mid-February.

[devildeac]

McDonald and Hairston both could play the point, if Ol 'Roy would agree to play a slower pace. He will probably shake up the line-up before the Duke game but I've watched a lot of Carolina basketball this year and their problem is their rotation. Carolina's best players are not playing the most minutes. Strickland is horrible on both ends of the court but he continues to start and play major minutes, while Hairston rides the pine.

What's wrong with any of that?;)

[weezie]

And no one is dancing on anyone's grave

Not gloating! But maybe a little Soupy Shuffle?
Ok, sooorrreeee.

[TKG]

I'm officially worried now. Canes only beat unc by 26 and they beat us by 27. By the transitive property, does that mean...

(jk, folks, jk)

I was driving from Spartanburg, SC to Raleigh this afternoon and listened to the second half of the game on the radio just for yucks. My friend and I made a bet on the over/under on how many times the Carolina radio guys would mention Miami's win over Duke. We set the bar at three. The winning number was seven! Seven references in the second half alone!

[wallyman]

Of course they had fun on IC after our loss to Miami. Seeing your rival lose is part of what makes being a fan fun! I for one enjoyed this Carolina loss thoroughly, as I always do.

And no one is dancing on anyone's grave - although to be fair, UNC's NCAA tournament hopes are tenuous at best. Their ONLY good win is over UNLV, and even that has lost some of its lustre now that the Rebels have lost back to back games to Boise State and Fresno State. UNC has four games left against probable tournament teams - 2 against us, and one each against NC State and Virginia (I'm giving the Wahoos the benefit of the doubt here, I think they'll barely sneak into the field). Fortunately for the Heels, 3 of the 4 are at home. I think they absolutely have to go 2-2 in those four games, and probably go 3-1 in their other four games against GT, Clemson, FSU, and Maryland, if they want to be on the right side of the bubble heading into the ACC tournament. That's a fairly tall order for a team that is still trying to figure out its rotation in mid-February.

All for appropriate gloating. Bad karma to do it too soon....

[El_Diablo]

I don't watch a lot of UNC so are those uniforms new? I told my girlfriend (who is somewhat of a carolina fan) what she thought..she agreed with me..those things are hideous.. I love the reference to Sylvia and her wardrobe style or lack thereof.. Yikes.

They were a one-game promotion. We will be wearing similar ones against Maryland. Ours are really ugly as well.

[Rich]

I don't watch a lot of UNC so are those uniforms new? I told my girlfriend (who is somewhat of a carolina fan) what she thought..she agreed with me..those things are hideous.. I love the reference to Sylvia and her wardrobe style or lack thereof.. Yikes.

The unis they wore today are Nike special editions and very similar to what Duke will be wearing for one game, against Maryland.

[mgtr]

The unis they wore today are Nike special editions and very similar to what Duke will be wearing for one game, against Maryland.

Why would we want to wear ugly uniforms?

[uh_no]

Why would we want to wear ugly uniforms?

because nike pays us lots of money to wear what they say we should

[Bob Green]

because nike pays us lots of money to wear what they say we should

Yeah, the almighty dollar, it is unfortunate but true.

[throatybeard]

Here's my substance-free take. Carolina won't miss the NCAAT no way no how. I haven't even looked at the field, but it just doesn't smell that way. All this gloating over UNLV being their only quality win will look awfully weird if/when they beat us. Even a split with them would terribly weaken this argument. And I watched the 1H but not the 2H because Netrebko was singing in the Met broadcast. They didn't look awful in the 1H. The problem is Miami is the real deal.

[Wander]

Here's my substance-free take. Carolina won't miss the NCAAT no way no how. I haven't even looked at the field, but it just doesn't smell that way. All this gloating over UNLV being their only quality win will look awfully weird if/when they beat us. Even a split with them would terribly weaken this argument. And I watched the 1H but not the 2H because Netrebko was singing in the Met broadcast. They didn't look awful in the 1H. The problem is Miami is the real deal.

I agree that if Carolina takes a game from us - certainly not impossible, look at the margins in the games against our common opponents - they will be safely in. However if they beat all the crappy teams and lose to all the decent teams to finish 9-9 in the conference, they will be in trouble. I'd still say they would be more likely to make the tournament than not make it given the four extra spots nowadays, but it would depend on what they do in the ACCs and what other teams around the country are doing. Far from a lock.

[mgtr]

because nike pays us lots of money to wear what they say we should

OK, why would Nike want us to wear ugly uniforms? Seems like a pretty stupid move if they want to sell uniforms.

[uh_no]

I agree that if Carolina takes a game from us - certainly not impossible, look at the margins in the games against our common opponents - they will be safely in. However if they beat all the crappy teams and lose to all the decent teams to finish 9-9 in the conference, they will be in trouble. I'd still say they would be more likely to make the tournament than not make it given the four extra spots nowadays, but it would depend on what they do in the ACCs and what other teams around the country are doing. Far from a lock.

UNC is 0-4 against currently ranked teams (butler indiana, miami x2).....their remaining schedule contains

2x duke (#5 kenpom)
NCSU (who they lost to previously #30 kenpom)
UVA (who they lost to already #23 kenpom)
GT
clemson (at clemson)
FSU
maryland (at maryland

UNC is currently 15-7 (chaminade doesn't count)

so if we go strictly by kenpom ratings (obviously currently discounting home field) they're looking at 4-4 the rest of the way....they might have the edge against state and UVAat home, but clemson and maryland may have the upper edge at their places....

if they go 6-2 with 2 losses to duke, they finish at 21-7 with their best win being over NCSU.....i think that leaves them outside.....if they go 6-2 and beat duke, they're in....if they, as seems more likely finish 5-3 or 4-4 and end up with 19 or 20 wins, none of which are against anyone good, that's simply not a tournament resume.

[vick]

OK, why would Nike want us to wear ugly uniforms? Seems like a pretty stupid move if they want to sell uniforms.

Because they aren't actually ugly? I mean, hasn't every uniform change over the last century been greeted with moans about how awful it is compared with the "good" ones (which always seem to correlate strongly with what was being worn when that person started following basketball)?

But on topic, I would be pretty surprised if UNC wins 10 conference games, as I think they will, and doesn't get an invite. They don't have many good wins but they don't have many awful losses either.

[OldPhiKap]

Here's my substance-free take. Carolina won't miss the NCAAT no way no how. I haven't even looked at the field, but it just doesn't smell that way. All this gloating over UNLV being their only quality win will look awfully weird if/when they beat us. Even a split with them would terribly weaken this argument. And I watched the 1H but not the 2H because Netrebko was singing in the Met broadcast. They didn't look awful in the 1H. The problem is Miami is the real deal.

My gut tells me this.


UNC is 0-4 against currently ranked teams (butler indiana, miami x2).....their remaining schedule contains

2x duke (#5 kenpom)
NCSU (who they lost to previously #30 kenpom)
UVA (who they lost to already #23 kenpom)
GT
clemson (at clemson)
FSU
maryland (at maryland

UNC is currently 15-7 (chaminade doesn't count)

so if we go strictly by kenpom ratings (obviously currently discounting home field) they're looking at 4-4 the rest of the way....they might have the edge against state and UVAat home, but clemson and maryland may have the upper edge at their places....

if they go 6-2 with 2 losses to duke, they finish at 21-7 with their best win being over NCSU.....i think that leaves them outside.....if they go 6-2 and beat duke, they're in....if they, as seems more likely finish 5-3 or 4-4 and end up with 19 or 20 wins, none of which are against anyone good, that's simply not a tournament resume.

My head tells me his.

My default is, for various reasons, that they are in unless they clearly fall off the bubble. Tie goes to the big name. (Us too)

[ArkieDukie]

McDonald and Hairston both could play the point, if Ol 'Roy would agree to play a slower pace. He will probably shake up the line-up before the Duke game but I've watched a lot of Carolina basketball this year and their problem is their rotation. Carolina's best players are not playing the most minutes. Strickland is horrible on both ends of the court but he continues to start and play major minutes, while Hairston rides the pine.

Bob, I haven't watched enough Carolina basketball this year to say if this is the case. If it is, doesn't it sound an awful lot like what happened a couple of years ago? I seem to recall Kendall Marshall being on the bench in favor of Drew for much of the season. Unfortunately, Roy finally figured out that Marshall should be starting.

[ChillinDuke]

...but they don't have many awful losses either.

They don't? I mean they got slammed by a 10-13 Texas team. Slammed by Indiana. Slammed by Butler. Slammed by NC State. Slammed by Miami.

These aren't just losses. They're massacres.

I agree that they have no good wins. The UNLV win is looking less and less impressive.

But they most certainly have bad losses. It's not just about losing, it's at least partly about how you lose. NC State by comparison had lost their first 4 ACC losses by a combined 7 pts or something like that. If NC State is creeping into the bubble conversation on this board (which has happened), then UNC is absolutely on the bubble. At best. ...for now.

- Chillin

[vick]

They don't? I mean they got slammed by a 10-13 Texas team. Slammed by Indiana. Slammed by Butler. Slammed by NC State. Slammed by Miami.

These aren't just losses. They're massacres.

I agree that they have no good wins. The UNLV win is looking less and less impressive.

But they most certainly have bad losses. It's not just about losing, it's at least partly about how you lose. NC State by comparison had lost their first 4 ACC losses by a combined 7 pts or something like that. If NC State is creeping into the bubble conversation on this board (which has happened), then UNC is absolutely on the bubble. At best. ...for now.

- Chillin

I mean, I guess it's a question of verbiage, I would call those "bad" losses. I would call UVa's inexplicable loss to ODU (who is currently 3-20!) as "awful." I also don't think margin matters that much, perhaps less than it should.

But, look, and keeping in mind this is all before today's game (which UNC was a substantial underdog in, though obviously not expected to lose by as much as they did), UNC is 32 in RPI, 24 in Sagarin, 35 in Pomeroy, 28 in Simple Rating System, etc. Lunardi, who isn't perfectly accurate but is not a fool, has them as a #10. They're pretty clearly on the positive side of the bubble right now. I'd love for them to falter badly down the stretch and miss, but I think they're definitely in right now.

[sporthenry]

I also don't think margin matters that much, perhaps less than it should.

Really? There are so many games where the final margin is decided by 1 play. To me, that indicates the teams are very even. And when Duke gets blown out by 30 at Miami while Michigan loses in OT after Wisconsin hits a halfcourt 3, I don't see those as apples to apples in the loss column. I often think we put too much emphasis on the wins. I know that sounds crazy and learning to win is certainly worth something but losing a game to a freak occurrence seems a bit unfair to not qualify it like that.

And this isn't to say teams don't have bad nights like Duke did or Kansas did and that should be acknowledged as an aberration but margin of victory should absolutely be considered.

[Bob Green]

And when Duke gets blown out by 30 at Miami...

Whoa, whoa, whoa...we only got blown out by 27 so get a grip. :D

[vick]

Really? There are so many games where the final margin is decided by 1 play. To me, that indicates the teams are very even. And when Duke gets blown out by 30 at Miami while Michigan loses in OT after Wisconsin hits a halfcourt 3, I don't see those as apples to apples in the loss column. I often think we put too much emphasis on the wins. I know that sounds crazy and learning to win is certainly worth something but losing a game to a freak occurrence seems a bit unfair to not qualify it like that.

And this isn't to say teams don't have bad nights like Duke did or Kansas did and that should be acknowledged as an aberration but margin of victory should absolutely be considered.

Oh I absolutely agree with you for myself, I meant that I don't think the committee factors in margin as much as fans and analysts do.

I'm not saying UNC will definitely make the tournament, but the marginal team right now is like Illinois, who is 4-8 in their last 12. People here are talking about them going 6-2 down the stretch (with losses to Duke) leaving them out. A team that has only one, maybe two losses to a non-tournament team getting left out? I think that's incredibly optimistic. If they go 6-2 in their next 8, not only do I not think they are out, I do not think they will be in the last 8 teams in.

[westwall]

I don't think its been mentioned yet in this thread, but IIRC the half-time stats had McAdoo with zero points AND zero rebounds. That kind of performance will not land him on the All-ACC team, even 3rd team. (He finished with 6 and 3).

[roywhite]

I don't think its been mentioned yet in this thread, but IIRC the half-time stats had McAdoo with zero points AND zero rebounds. That kind of performance will not land him on the All-ACC team, even 3rd team. (He finished with 6 and 3).

Just Mediocre McAdoo

[fan345678]

UNC has so many issues this season that it's hard to pick the most important thing. Is is that they can't make shots? Limit the TO's? Play strong in the post? Guard the outside shot? Guard the penetration? Penetrate themselves? Finish around the rim?


I've always thought that the Heels could go...nevermind

[OldPhiKap]

I've always thought that the Heels could go...nevermind

Post of the season!

Seems to me that the biggest problem they have is that Roy won't bench Dex. Like LDII a few years ago. Odd.

[sporthenry]

Oh I absolutely agree with you for myself, I meant that I don't think the committee factors in margin as much as fans and analysts do.

I'm not saying UNC will definitely make the tournament, but the marginal team right now is like Illinois, who is 4-8 in their last 12. People here are talking about them going 6-2 down the stretch (with losses to Duke) leaving them out. A team that has only one, maybe two losses to a non-tournament team getting left out? I think that's incredibly optimistic. If they go 6-2 in their next 8, not only do I not think they are out, I do not think they will be in the last 8 teams in.

Yeah, I do agree that the committee seems to care too much about the W especially how many top 25 wins, top 50 wins, etc. If you lost 5 games against top 25 opponents by a combined 10 points, I'd say that shows you can compete with a tournament team. I think they do take it into consideration but do agree not nearly as much as they probably should.

I'm assuming you meant to say they are in? But I agree that a 6-2 team will probably make it but they are on the bubble but most UNC fans don't seem to be that confident in a 6-2 finish. UVA will be tough, at UMD will be tough and they'll probably lose to Duke/NC State. And FSU was one of those games that could have gone anyway in Tallahassee. I've heard some UNC fans talk about finishing 9-7 or 10-6 in league which would probably put them on the bubble.

[vick]

Yeah, I do agree that the committee seems to care too much about the W especially how many top 25 wins, top 50 wins, etc. If you lost 5 games against top 25 opponents by a combined 10 points, I'd say that shows you can compete with a tournament team. I think they do take it into consideration but do agree not nearly as much as they probably should.

I'm assuming you meant to say they are in? But I agree that a 6-2 team will probably make it but they are on the bubble but most UNC fans don't seem to be that confident in a 6-2 finish. UVA will be tough, at UMD will be tough and they'll probably lose to Duke/NC State. And FSU was one of those games that could have gone anyway in Tallahassee. I've heard some UNC fans talk about finishing 9-7 or 10-6 in league which would probably put them on the bubble.

Haha I think I trapped myself with too many negatives, but what I meant was that if they finish 6-2, they will be not one of the last 8 teams selected (i.e., if the lowest at-large is a 12, they would be a 9 or better).

I actually don't think they will go 6-2 down the stretch either, but it was argued earlier in this thread that 6-2 would likely leave them out if both losses were to Duke. I disagree. I believe, since the tournament expanded to 64+ teams in 1985, that 451 teams have won at least 2/3 of their games in the ACC/Big 12 (8)/Big Ten/Big East/SEC/Pac 12 (8). 9 of them have failed to make the tournament: 1985 UCLA, 1988 UCLA, 1991 Kentucky, 2003 Georgia, 2010 ASU, 2011 Alabama, 2012 Arizona, 2012 Oregon, 2012 Washington (yep, the PAC was horrible last year). At least two of those were on probation (Kentucky and Georgia). Take out the probation cases and these teams have made the tournament 98.4% of the time. Take out last year's PAC (and while the ACC is down this year, it's nowhere near as bad as the PAC last year), and it's 99.1%. I think anyone hoping a UNC team that goes 12-6 is stuck in the NIT is going to have a sad selection day.

I agree 10-8 is probably bubble-bound, depends on too many factors, like how many mid-majors "steal" bids in conference tournaments, to tell though.

[NSDukeFan]

I don't watch a lot of UNC so are those uniforms new? I told my girlfriend (who is somewhat of a carolina fan) what she thought..she agreed with me..those things are hideous.. I love the reference to Sylvia and her wardrobe style or lack thereof.. Yikes.

I expect you two probably don't argue that much.

[NSDukeFan]

I didn't get to see the first half, but maybe I was lucky. That was ugly.

Miami is one of the best teams in the country, they are not just a hot team, they are solid.

UNC has so many issues this season that it's hard to pick the most important thing. Is is that they can't make shots? Limit the TO's? Play strong in the post? Guard the outside shot? Guard the penetration? Penetrate themselves? Finish around the rim?

Take your pick. They were weak in every aspect of the game today and will just have to re-group and pick up the intensity. No way they were ever going to win that game the way they played.

I don't see it as a problem of coaching either. The players are not getting it done. It was men against boys out there today.



I've always thought that the Heels could go...nevermind

Post of the season!

Seems to me that the biggest problem they have is that Roy won't bench Dex. Like LDII a few years ago. Odd.

I second the post of the season nomination.

[Newton_14]

Post of the season!

Seems to me that the biggest problem they have is that Roy won't bench Dex. Like LDII a few years ago. Odd.

It goes well beyond that. He is playing 6 post players: McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Simmons, 4 wings: Bullock, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, and 1 PG: Paige.

11 players. Every game. Given the uni's today, it was very difficult to keep up with who was on the floor. During one stretch in the 1st half, McDonald hit a 3, then Hairston hit 2 in a row. Both came out at the next dead ball.

He insists on playing 2 bigs at the same time, despite the huge talent gap between the bigs and the wings. He should start Paige- PG, McDonald- SG, Bullock-SF, Hairston- PF, McAdoo-C. Use Hubert to backup McAdoo, and use Strickland to backup Paige and the wings, and let Bullock play the 4 when Hairston rests. 7 players getting the bulk of the minutes, slow the pace a little, emphasizing the 3 pointer and solid defense. They would be so much better in that scenario, but that's just me.

[devildeac]

Post of the season!

Seems to me that the biggest problem they have is that Roy won't bench Dex. Like LDII a few years ago. Odd.

He's probably hoping he won't transfer to UnCLA. Oh, never mind. He's a senior:o.

[davekay1971]

It goes well beyond that. He is playing 6 post players: McAdoo, Hubert, James, Johnson, Simmons, 4 wings: Bullock, Strickland, McDonald, Hairston, and 1 PG: Paige.

11 players. Every game. Given the uni's today, it was very difficult to keep up with who was on the floor. During one stretch in the 1st half, McDonald hit a 3, then Hairston hit 2 in a row. Both came out at the next dead ball.

He insists on playing 2 bigs at the same time, despite the huge talent gap between the bigs and the wings. He should start Paige- PG, McDonald- SG, Bullock-SF, Hairston- PF, McAdoo-C. Use Hubert to backup McAdoo, and use Strickland to backup Paige and the wings, and let Bullock play the 4 when Hairston rests. 7 players getting the bulk of the minutes, slow the pace a little, emphasizing the 3 pointer and solid defense. They would be so much better in that scenario, but that's just me.

Absolutely agree with these questions about Roy's rotation. UNC has talent. Hairston and Bullock are both very good players, JMM has physical talents abounding and has some games where he's very good, and Paige is improving through a tough rookie year. That's a good starting 1-4. Good enough to be better than the middle-of-the-pack ACC team they're going to end up being, even if their 5 is occupied by the motley crew of second rate centers they've got available. Heck, if their 5 can just defend the post a little, get some boards, and set high screens they're okay to go. But Roy's stubborn determination to play Stickland at least 25 minutes and have 2 bigs on the court at all times is limiting them.

For all that, UNC will probably make the NCAAT, though they're likely to sitting on the inside of the bubble for the rest of the season. Their schedule is tougher from here on. They've beaten all the teams they should beat so far, save Texas, gotten killed by better teams, and have that one top 50 win at home as their only impressive win to date. But their RPI is in the low 30s, and not likely to slide much unless they go worse than 4-4 from here on.

They could very well do that, of course. 1-3 at home the rest of the way against Duke, State, UVa, and FSU is possible, but 2-2 against that group is more likely. Simlarly, they could lose all of their away games at Duke, Md, Clemson, and GT, but 1-3 or 2-2 is more likely. if they finish out 3-5 the rest of the way, they finish at 9-9 in conference and selection Sunday is palm sweating time at Chapel Hill. Finish out 2-6 and below .500 in conference and it's NIT time.

But UNC has certainly not imploded this year. They've performed to what their personnel, youth, and a coach who's isn't very good at adjusting to a limited roster allow. I don't expect a meltdown in the final month of their season. And I certainly won't crow before we've notched 2 wins over them. Hopefully we will win both, UNC will struggle on the road, State will bury them in the Dean Dome, and the Rams Club can enjoy their brie and chardonnay during home NIT games this March.

[throatybeard]

UNC is 0-4 against currently ranked teams (butler indiana, miami x2).....their remaining schedule contains

2x duke (#5 kenpom)
NCSU (who they lost to previously #30 kenpom)
UVA (who they lost to already #23 kenpom)
GT
clemson (at clemson)
FSU
maryland (at maryland

UNC is currently 15-7 (chaminade doesn't count)

so if we go strictly by kenpom ratings (obviously currently discounting home field) they're looking at 4-4 the rest of the way....they might have the edge against state and UVAat home, but clemson and maryland may have the upper edge at their places....

if they go 6-2 with 2 losses to duke, they finish at 21-7 with their best win being over NCSU.....i think that leaves them outside.....if they go 6-2 and beat duke, they're in....if they, as seems more likely finish 5-3 or 4-4 and end up with 19 or 20 wins, none of which are against anyone good, that's simply not a tournament resume.

Well, as I asserted in my admittedly substance-free post, this is all meaningless unless you're looking at the entire field. You have to look at who's getting in infront of them, not at an arbitrary notion of a 9-9 ACC team.

[uh_no]

Well, as I asserted in my admittedly substance-free post, this is all meaningless unless you're looking at the entire field. You have to look at who's getting in infront of them, not at an arbitrary notion of a 9-9 ACC team.

At face value, i agree, but since we looked at their record against other competition based on rank, we are effectively normalizing by the overall strength of tournament teams....meaning that each year, teams getting in the tournament should have ABOUT the same record against top 25/50 opponents

[throatybeard]

At face value, i agree, but since we looked at their record against other competition based on rank, we are effectively normalizing by the overall strength of tournament teams....meaning that each year, teams getting in the tournament should have ABOUT the same record against top 25/50 opponents

Well OK.

I'm just scarred by the year everyone on Tar Heel Talk was arguing Carolina would not make the field, and I was, because I was looking at the whole field. 2000, I believe. That didn't work out well for Duke. You really have to look at the whole field.

[wsb3]

I expect you two probably don't argue that much.

I have hopes in time of directing her toward the proper shade of blue. Her family brainwashed her. But her sister married a State guy and eventually went the Pack way so I am hoping......;)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I think many of you guys are over estimating the talent of the players that UNC has put on the floor this season.
Maybe not the potential of the talent, but the actual talent that they have displayed.

Name the player that individually strikes fear in his matchup against any of the better teams?

Do I hear crickets?

I like to look for "basketball plays" which define the best teams. The plays where an individual player does something that makes the other team react and recover. It could be with a pass, or the dribble, or something as simple as just owning the space in the low post with strength and positioning.

Those sort of plays are few and far between this season.

This team has so many issues. For those that say Roy should do this, or Roy should do that....I think you should realize it's like trying to plug a leaking dam for the coach this year. There is no magic line up. If he starts and plays PJ like everybody seems to think, for instance, this team still loses to the quality opponents and it becomes a one dimensional outside shooting, no ball handling, weak defensive team that does not develop players for the future by learning the system that, like it or not, Roy has been successful with and is going to run.

Young, inexperienced players are being forced to play key positions. Older players are "team" players not "breakdown" players. It's a recipe for a tough season.

This is simply a rebuilding year for a team that lost 4 starters ...and especially was surprised by the loss of its expected PG and leader, (KM to the NBA).

I still think this team can improve and beat some quality teams. But players will have to make shots and limit the TO's.

Roy is coaching this team his way and I support him. It's easy to criticize, but hard to lead.

[OldPhiKap]

Good post, a few observations:


I think many of you guys are over estimating the talent of the players that UNC has put on the floor this season.
Maybe not the potential of the talent, but the actual talent that they have displayed.

Name the player that individually strikes fear in his matchup against any of the better teams?

Do I hear crickets?



Doesn't that mean that Roy needs to limit possessions and slow down? We have had alarmingly unathletic teams in the past, and K generally slows down the game. If you ain't got the horses, don't get in a race.

You can also look at teams like Butler that do not have marquis names but play solid, fundamental team basketball. I think that is something Roy can have these kids doing.




I like to look for "basketball plays" which define the best teams. The plays where an individual player does something that makes the other team react and recover. It could be with a pass, or the dribble, or something as simple as just owning the space in the low post with strength and positioning.

Those sort of plays are few and far between this season.

I.e. play fundamental basketball. Those things are taught and drawn up by the coach.




This team has so many issues. For those that say Roy should do this, or Roy should do that....I think you should realize it's like trying to plug a leaking dam for the coach this year. There is no magic line up. If he starts and plays PJ like everybody seems to think, for instance, this team still loses to the quality opponents and it becomes a one dimensional outside shooting, no ball handling, weak defensive team that does not develop players for the future by learning the system that, like it or not, Roy has been successful with and is going to run.

Young, inexperienced players are being forced to play key positions. Older players are "team" players not "breakdown" players. It's a recipe for a tough season.

This is simply a rebuilding year for a team that lost 4 starters ...and especially was surprised by the loss of its expected PG and leader, (KM to the NBA).


College coaches face this every year. We have run point guard by committee several times, and every preseason thread points out these challenges as folks discuss projected minutes. I certainly agree that the problems at the point make all of the other problems more critical, which is why there is so much debate on IC about how to address it. I guess Roy has simply decided that he has the best guy out there, and I defer to the coach on that. But Roy has to run a game to suit the guy he is putting out there.




I still think this team can improve and beat some quality teams. But players will have to make shots and limit the TO's.

Roy is coaching this team his way and I support him. It's easy to criticize, but hard to lead.

I continue to think that this is a dangerous team with lots of potential. When players are commenting about team disunity and trying to pad their own numbers, though, it seems to me that the problem is not lack of talent but lack of leadership. K got a team of NBA all-stars to buy into much more limited roles than they serve on their teams.

Bottom line for me is that this team can still get out there and beat anyone. I always assume a split with the Heels regardless of records. But the captain of the current train wreck is Roy.

[Bob Green]

I think many of you guys are over estimating the talent of the players that UNC has put on the floor this season.
Maybe not the potential of the talent, but the actual talent that they have displayed.

I will play! And I'll start by stating up front, Coach K could win with the talent Coach Williams has available this year.


Name the player that individually strikes fear in his matchup against any of the better teams?
Do I hear crickets?

Nope, no crickets from me. Reggie Bullock and P.J. Hairston would strike fear into opponents with their size, strength and outside shooting ability except Coach Williams jerks them on and off the court like a yo-yo.


This team has so many issues. For those that say Roy should do this, or Roy should do that....

Well it is the coach's job to do something. You know the old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."


Young, inexperienced players are being forced to play key positions. Older players are "team" players not "breakdown" players. It's a recipe for a tough season.

What this Carolina team needs is for Coach Williams to convince a couple of individuals to accept the fact they need to play a specific role for the betterment of the team. James Michael McAdoo needs to play in the low post. Dexter Strickland needs to play off the bench.

As Newton_14 states in a post above, the strength of this Carolina team is on the wing with Bullock, Hairston and McDonald. Identifying and emphasizing a team's strength is the coach's responsibility.

Joel James, J.P. Tokoto and either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons need to play in practice and sit on the bench during games. The rotation needs to drop from 11 to eight players.


Roy is coaching this team his way and I support him. It's easy to criticize, but hard to lead.

I'll give credit where credit is due and you deserve credit for being a loyal fan during what is shaping up to be a subpar year for your Tar Heels. Personally, I'm not writing the Heels obituary yet.

As far as your "criticizing versus leadership" poke, while those of us criticizing Coach Williams on DBR have zero experience leading a college basketball team, many of us have plenty of experience leading teams at the highest level of our chosen profession.

Leadership is hard. Influencing a team of individuals to work together toward a common goal often involves convincing a couple of key individuals to forego immediate personal goals.

You say the Tar Heels are lacking talented players. I counter the Tar Heels are lacking leadership.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think many of you guys are over estimating the talent of the players that UNC has put on the floor this season.
Maybe not the potential of the talent, but the actual talent that they have displayed.

Name the player that individually strikes fear in his matchup against any of the better teams?

Do I hear crickets?

I like to look for "basketball plays" which define the best teams. The plays where an individual player does something that makes the other team react and recover. It could be with a pass, or the dribble, or something as simple as just owning the space in the low post with strength and positioning.

Those sort of plays are few and far between this season.

This team has so many issues. For those that say Roy should do this, or Roy should do that....I think you should realize it's like trying to plug a leaking dam for the coach this year. There is no magic line up. If he starts and plays PJ like everybody seems to think, for instance, this team still loses to the quality opponents and it becomes a one dimensional outside shooting, no ball handling, weak defensive team that does not develop players for the future by learning the system that, like it or not, Roy has been successful with and is going to run.

Young, inexperienced players are being forced to play key positions. Older players are "team" players not "breakdown" players. It's a recipe for a tough season.

This is simply a rebuilding year for a team that lost 4 starters ...and especially was surprised by the loss of its expected PG and leader, (KM to the NBA).

I still think this team can improve and beat some quality teams. But players will have to make shots and limit the TO's.

Roy is coaching this team his way and I support him. It's easy to criticize, but hard to lead.
Excuses, excuses. You have 5 McD all americans. It ain't the talent.

Besides... I thought basketball was a team sport.

[devildeac]

I will play! And I'll start by stating up front, Coach K could win with the talent Coach Williams has available this year.



Nope, no crickets from me. Reggie Bullock and P.J. Hairston would strike fear into opponents with their size, strength and outside shooting ability except Coach Williams jerks them on and off the court like a yo-yo.



Well it is the coach's job to do something. You know the old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."



What this Carolina team needs is for Coach Williams to convince a couple of individuals to accept the fact they need to play a specific role for the betterment of the team. James Michael McAdoo needs to play in the low post. Dexter Strickland needs to play off the bench.

As Newton_14 states in a post above, the strength of this Carolina team is on the wing with Bullock, Hairston and McDonald. Identifying and emphasizing a team's strength is the coach's responsibility.

Joel James, J.P. Tokoto and either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons need to play in practice and sit on the bench during games. The rotation needs to drop from 11 to eight players.



I'll give credit where credit is due and you deserve credit for being a loyal fan during what is shaping up to be a subpar year for your Tar Heels. Personally, I'm not writing the Heels obituary yet.

As far as your "criticizing versus leadership" poke, while those of us criticizing Coach Williams on DBR have zero experience leading a college basketball team, many of us have plenty of experience leading teams at the highest level of our chosen profession.

Leadership is hard. Influencing a team of individuals to work together toward a common goal often involves convincing a couple of key individuals to forego immediate personal goals.

You say the Tar Heels are lacking talented players. I counter the Tar Heels are lacking leadership.

Dear Roy,

Please do not read this post and get any intelligent, reasonable ideas before this week's game.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

devildeac

[El_Diablo]

Who recruited all those supposed scrubs, anyway?

[davekay1971]

Dear Roy,

Please do not read this post and get any intelligent, reasonable ideas before this week's game.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

devildeac

Dear Roy,

Instead, read this, my suggestion list for improving your team's performance:

1) Spread the love. You have 11 players capable of playing. There are 200 minutes available in regulation. There is too much disparity in playing time. Each player should play slightly less than 20 minutes per game, regardless of how a given player is performing in a given game. That equality of minutes will pay off, trust me!

2) You need 2 low post bigs on the court at all times. That's your system. You're a hall-of-famer, you've won 2 national championships, you know what you're doing. Trust yourself, stick to your system, and play those 2 bigs all game, every game.

3) Seniority matters. It took Dex 54 practices to get it. Don't waste that. Play him. Lots. Disregard suggestion 1 when it comes to Dex. The other 10 guys can evenly divide 160 minutes.

4) Rhythm is overrated. Stick to your substitution pattern regardless of how guys are performing on the court. Players don't get "hot" or "cold". If Hairston hits 3 shots in a row but it's his turn to come out, take him out. Preferably to get Dex on the court.

5) Play faster. When you have slower, less talented players, you'll do better if you speed it up and run. Don't over think that.

6) Stick to your system. Personnel is irrelevant. What worked for your 2005 and 2009 teams will work for this one. It's the system that matters. Your system, Mr. Hall of Fame, 2 time National Champion coach. Your system. Don't change it.

[camion]

I will play! And I'll start by stating up front, Coach K could win with the talent Coach Williams has available this year.



Nope, no crickets from me. Reggie Bullock and P.J. Hairston would strike fear into opponents with their size, strength and outside shooting ability except Coach Williams jerks them on and off the court like a yo-yo.



Well it is the coach's job to do something. You know the old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."



What this Carolina team needs is for Coach Williams to convince a couple of individuals to accept the fact they need to play a specific role for the betterment of the team. James Michael McAdoo needs to play in the low post. Dexter Strickland needs to play off the bench.

As Newton_14 states in a post above, the strength of this Carolina team is on the wing with Bullock, Hairston and McDonald. Identifying and emphasizing a team's strength is the coach's responsibility.

Joel James, J.P. Tokoto and either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons need to play in practice and sit on the bench during games. The rotation needs to drop from 11 to eight players.



I'll give credit where credit is due and you deserve credit for being a loyal fan during what is shaping up to be a subpar year for your Tar Heels. Personally, I'm not writing the Heels obituary yet.

As far as your "criticizing versus leadership" poke, while those of us criticizing Coach Williams on DBR have zero experience leading a college basketball team, many of us have plenty of experience leading teams at the highest level of our chosen profession.

Leadership is hard. Influencing a team of individuals to work together toward a common goal often involves convincing a couple of key individuals to forego immediate personal goals.

You say the Tar Heels are lacking talented players. I counter the Tar Heels are lacking leadership.

If you want to be absolutely one hundred per cent sure that these suggestions will NOT be implemented just forward them to Ol' Roy and sign it "Coach K." ;)

[OldPhiKap]

If you want to be absolutely one hundred per cent sure that these suggestions will NOT be implemented just forward them to Ol' Roy and sign it "Coach K." ;)

Or, call in to Roy's radio show and suggest it as a concerned fan. He loves those suggestions and is always gracious in responding.

[-bdbd]

I will play! And I'll start by stating up front, Coach K could win with the talent Coach Williams has available this year.

Nope, no crickets from me. Reggie Bullock and P.J. Hairston would strike fear into opponents with their size, strength and outside shooting ability except Coach Williams jerks them on and off the court like a yo-yo.

Well it is the coach's job to do something. You know the old saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

What this Carolina team needs is for Coach Williams to convince a couple of individuals to accept the fact they need to play a specific role for the betterment of the team. James Michael McAdoo needs to play in the low post. Dexter Strickland needs to play off the bench.

As Newton_14 states in a post above, the strength of this Carolina team is on the wing with Bullock, Hairston and McDonald. Identifying and emphasizing a team's strength is the coach's responsibility.

Joel James, J.P. Tokoto and either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons need to play in practice and sit on the bench during games. The rotation needs to drop from 11 to eight players.

I'll give credit where credit is due and you deserve credit for being a loyal fan during what is shaping up to be a subpar year for your Tar Heels. Personally, I'm not writing the Heels obituary yet.

As far as your "criticizing versus leadership" poke, while those of us criticizing Coach Williams on DBR have zero experience leading a college basketball team, many of us have plenty of experience leading teams at the highest level of our chosen profession.

Leadership is hard. Influencing a team of individuals to work together toward a common goal often involves convincing a couple of key individuals to forego immediate personal goals.

You say the Tar Heels are lacking talented players. I counter the Tar Heels are lacking leadership.

I want to echo the credit to Wheat for sticking up for his coach and team under some clearly trying times. Not always easy, fun, and certainly not in "public."

It isn't that Carolina has no or poor talent. Obviously 5 Parade AA's is more raw talent than 98% of the teams out there. If polls were based SOLELY on talent rankings coming out of High Schhol, Roy's squad would be ranked in the to 8 in the country. One problem, however, is that IT ISN'T AS MUCH TALENT AS (SPOILED) UNC IS USED TO (and to be fair, Duke often is another school that gets spoiled with ridiculous amounts of talent too). But a Head Coach at that level, who recruited/compiled that talent, and is paid that kind of money, with that much experience, really should be able to adapt and make that talent work. Roy works great when he has overwhelming talent, or as Colin Powell used to say, "overwhelming force". So when the US will attack a small country there simply is no doubt right from the start who is going to win. If you lack the "overwhelming force" that you are used to, then you need to tweak your system/plans some more, and adapt. Roy just isn't that guy. It has long been documented that he tends to stick with his one system, regardless of the talent. But lacking overwhelming speed at the point, and overwheling athleticism on D, and superior boardcrashers, I really don't think that he knows what to do now. Also, I've never had the sense that he really enjoys developing talent much either. Maybe just it isn't his forte. We're lucky over here. One of the things I've always felt K is strong at is anticipating a team's issues/needs well BEFORE the season starts and doing the "mad chemist" things necessary to adapt and plug those holes during the offseason. That goes well beyond seeing a need for a rebounder and then recruiting a PF in time to meet the need. It is also working with guys already on hand, so that a Kyle Singler adds 20+ pounds of muscle over a 6-month off-season, practices playing the 4 all summer/fall and gets speciofic "moves" coaching there, and can play in the 4-slot quite well come November-March. Or a 6'4" SG beefs up and works on his speed and "slasher defense" so that he can cover taller, faster 3's, when Duke lacks a natural 3.

When selection Sunday comes I do expect NC to make it, but probably as a lower seed, and so to likely be gone after the tournament's first weekend. Though not all-empowering, the name itself will certainly HELP to get them over that NCAA bubble. Kind of like they got a undeserved high seed in the NIT a few years ago, and got to play some (probably undeserved) NIT home games which obviously helped them to survive a couple extra rounds, which may have helped the NIT's TV ratings some?? Just saying there's other factors to consider beyond pure RPI scores and SOS factors, etc. which will help 'em out come March 17th...

[Blue KevIL]

UNC is 0-4 against currently ranked teams (butler indiana, miami x2).....their remaining schedule contains

2x duke (#5 kenpom)
NCSU (who they lost to previously #30 kenpom)
UVA (who they lost to already #23 kenpom)
GT
clemson (at clemson)
FSU
maryland (at maryland

UNC is currently 15-7 (chaminade doesn't count)

so if we go strictly by kenpom ratings (obviously currently discounting home field) they're looking at 4-4 the rest of the way....they might have the edge against state and UVAat home, but clemson and maryland may have the upper edge at their places....

if they go 6-2 with 2 losses to duke, they finish at 21-7 with their best win being over NCSU.....i think that leaves them outside.....if they go 6-2 and beat duke, they're in....if they, as seems more likely finish 5-3 or 4-4 and end up with 19 or 20 wins, none of which are against anyone good, that's simply not a tournament resume.

Can someone explain to me why the UNC victory over Chaminade "doesn't count"?

I have seen this mentioned in three or four threads this season and it doesn't sound right -- not that I am advocating that UNC gets any unneccesary wins.
I just wanted to clear up my confusion (as well as anyone else's).

The official NCAA website shows UNC's record as 16-7 with the Chaminade win counted: http://www.ncaa.com/schools/north-carolina/basketball-men

I have looked all over and cannot find anything that would suggest that it doesn't count.
I understand that pre-season exhibitions against Div II opponents don't count, but in-season games should count on a teams W/L record (but maybe not its RPI).

Otherwise, I imagine The Maui Invitational would have a hard time drawing quality Div I teams if a win over Chaminade doesn't count as a win.

[pamtar]

Can someone explain to me why the UNC victory over Chaminade "doesn't count"?

I have seen this mentioned in three or four threads this season and it doesn't sound right -- not that I am advocating that UNC gets any unneccesary wins.
I just wanted to clear up my confusion (as well as anyone else's).

The official NCAA website shows UNC's record as 16-7 with the Chaminade win counted: http://www.ncaa.com/schools/north-carolina/basketball-men

I have looked all over and cannot find anything that would suggest that it doesn't count.
I understand that pre-season exhibitions against Div II opponents don't count, but in-season games should count on a teams W/L record (but maybe not its RPI).

Otherwise, I imagine The Maui Invitational would have a hard time drawing quality Div I teams if a win over Chaminade doesn't count as a win.

It may count in the NCAA's eye's as an 'exhibition' but the selection committee will not use it for tournament placement since Chaminade is not a D1 school. Nor would they use it if UNC had lost.

[Wander]

Can someone explain to me why the UNC victory over Chaminade "doesn't count"?

I have seen this mentioned in three or four threads this season and it doesn't sound right -- not that I am advocating that UNC gets any unneccesary wins.
I just wanted to clear up my confusion (as well as anyone else's).


This is unclear to me as well. I've seen it repeated as a fact, but I can't find an official source that explicitly says regular season games against non-Division 1 teams don't count. The closest I've seen is:

"Among the resources available to the committee are complete box scores, game summaries and notes, pertinent information submitted on a team’s behalf by its conference, various computer rankings, head-to-head results, chronological results, Division I results, non-conference results, home, away and neutral results, rankings, polls and the NABC regional advisory committee rankings."

It does say "Division I results," but it also says it considers "rankings and polls" which certainly would take into account losses to Division II teams. So I'm not sure.

[gumbomoop]

EK board is great, and I mean it. I think Wheat has made an interesting case [post #74], with specific examples, that it's the players, not the coach and his system.

Then OldPhiKap [post #75] and Bob Green [post #76] counter with their own specific counter-examples that purport to show key, and numerous, weaknesses in Wheat's defense of Roy.

Then davekay1971 [post 80] "supports" Wheat and Roy with the soundest advice one can imagine. There is every reason to believe that Roy pays much more attention to EK than to all those idiot call-in Heel fanatics, so I trust he will welcome Wheat's loyalty, ignore the OPK/BG critique, and follow carefully and thoroughly dk71's wise counsel.

Oh, and -bdbd [post #83] provides a different focus and some excellent analysis and comparisons between, well, some rather different coaching philosophies and practices.

EK is an excellent place to follow college basketball, among other things.

[OldPhiKap]

EK board is great, and I mean it. I think Wheat has made an interesting case [post #74], with specific examples, that it's the players, not the coach and his system.

Then OldPhiKap [post #75] and Bob Green [post #76] counter with their own specific counter-examples that purport to show key, and numerous, weaknesses in Wheat's defense of Roy.

Then davekay1971 [post 80] "supports" Wheat and Roy with the soundest advice one can imagine. There is every reason to believe that Roy pays much more attention to EK than to all those idiot call-in Heel fanatics, so I trust he will welcome Wheat's loyalty, ignore the OPK/BG critique, and follow carefully and thoroughly dk71's wise counsel.

Oh, and -bdbd [post #83] provides a different focus and some excellent analysis and comparisons between, well, some rather different coaching philosophies and practices.

EK is an excellent place to follow college basketball, among other things.

You can also get some excellent beer recommendations on the "Ymm, beer" thread over on the other board.

I agree with your point, there is a lot of excellent information on a wide variety of topics at DBR.

[TruBlu]

I've always thought that the Heels could go...nevermind

fan 345678, just based on this one post, you are now one of my favorites on DBR. Great job!

[uh_no]

This is unclear to me as well. I've seen it repeated as a fact, but I can't find an official source that explicitly says regular season games against non-Division 1 teams don't count. The closest I've seen is:

"Among the resources available to the committee are complete box scores, game summaries and notes, pertinent information submitted on a team’s behalf by its conference, various computer rankings, head-to-head results, chronological results, Division I results, non-conference results, home, away and neutral results, rankings, polls and the NABC regional advisory committee rankings."

It does say "Division I results," but it also says it considers "rankings and polls" which certainly would take into account losses to Division II teams. So I'm not sure.

for the purposes of "how many wins does team x have", D2 wins don't count....they don't count in the RPI, which is also heavily utilized by the committee.