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matt1
02-06-2013, 08:48 PM
What is going on? Kansas is playing winless-in-conference TCU, and the score is:
TCU 20, Kansas 10
2:50 1st Half

cptnflash
02-06-2013, 08:50 PM
Kansas will win easily by the time this is over. TCU wasted an opportunity by not opening up a big lead while Kansas was sleepwalking through most of the first half.

matt1
02-06-2013, 08:52 PM
Arizona is also down 1 at the half at home against Stanford.

AncientPsychicT
02-06-2013, 08:58 PM
22-13 at the half.

13 points for Kansas is the lowest for the Jayhawks since at least 1988-89.

WakeDevil
02-06-2013, 09:14 PM
It was 10-4 at the 6:15 mark before they started lighting it up.

davekay1971
02-06-2013, 09:16 PM
That set basketball back 70 years. At least. That may actually be an insult to college teams in the 1940s.

Nice perspective moment for anyone who's despaired about Duke's "ceiling" during our worst stretches of play on the road this season. I'm not sure we looked that completely incompetent at Miami...without a key starter...against a really good team.

I'm not criticizing Kansas by that statement. Kansas is a legitimate top 5 team and Final Four contender. But they're playing a pretty mediocre TCU team with their full complement of players and they looked truly bad. Just goes to show that, when teams are a bunch of college kids, particularly when freshmen are playing such important roles, even really good teams are going to get out on the road and look really bad at times.

loran16
02-06-2013, 10:25 PM
Mediocre TCU team is putting it nicely. TCU is ranked 278th. They're really really really bad. They lost their last home game by 26 to Baylor.

This makes the Miami loss look like nothing. It's not like in the Miami game where one team had great luck and the other poor. TCU isn't shooting well at all (under 40%) or being efficient. KU is just awful.

matt1
02-06-2013, 10:27 PM
TCU 62, Kansas 55

SCMatt33
02-06-2013, 10:29 PM
Mediocre TCU team is putting it nicely. TCU is ranked 278th. They're really really really bad. They lost their last home game by 26 to Baylor.

This makes the Miami loss look like nothing. It's not like in the Miami game where one team had great luck and the other poor. TCU isn't shooting well at all (under 40%) or being efficient. KU is just awful.

On top of that, they shot 9-20 from the foul line in the last 1:30 once Kansas started fouling. Give them credit for not turning the ball over, but a team with Kansas' talent should have had a great chance to make that comeback (or at least take it to the last possession), but they just couldn't score enough.

AncientPsychicT
02-06-2013, 10:31 PM
Well, that just happened.

If you thought Florida's loss was bad.....

Put it this way: this was TCU's first win in conference play. They had never (as in NEVER) beaten a top 5 team before tonight. Their last win was December 30th against Mississippi Valley State. And, as loran16 pointed out, they are 278 (278!!!!!!) in Pomeroy.

Wow

loran16
02-06-2013, 10:32 PM
On top of that, they shot 9-20 from the foul line in the last 1:30 once Kansas started fouling. Give them credit for not turning the ball over, but a team with Kansas' talent should have had a great chance to make that comeback (or at least take it to the last possession), but they just couldn't score enough.

Well their inbounding strategy at least once included get the ball to the 39% FT shooting guy. (Who went 2-4 on the night, so good for him).

sporthenry
02-06-2013, 10:33 PM
Money line finished at +2500. To get those odds, the Panthers/Eagles/Chiefs/Browns/Dolphins/Jets/Rams would have to win the AFC/NFC title game. The Bears are at +3000 to win the Super Bowl next year. The Cubs/Diamondbacks/Pirates/Orioles would have to win the pennant. The Grizzlies have better odds to win the NBA title, the Warriors better odds to win the West.

Crazy stuff.

matt1
02-06-2013, 10:33 PM
This was a bigger upset than a 1 vs. 16 would be.

dyedwab
02-06-2013, 10:35 PM
We tend to get so wrapped up in our own teams performance, we sometimes lose perspective.

TCU is not a good team. Their record shows that, and watching the game would tell you quickly that they were not nearly as talented as Kansas. Kansas laid a big, stinkin' egg. All credit to TCU, but Kansas was really, really bad - and they still are still at least 8-10 teams most likely to win a national championship.

Just. wow.

Ultrarunner
02-06-2013, 10:38 PM
Mediocre TCU team is putting it nicely. TCU is ranked 278th. They're really really really bad. They lost their last home game by 26 to Baylor.

This makes the Miami loss look like nothing. It's not like in the Miami game where one team had great luck and the other poor. TCU isn't shooting well at all (under 40%) or being efficient. KU is just awful.

This will not stop Duke fans from taking the vapors every time the team doesn't blast someone out of the gym by thirty points. That Kansas and Florida suffered bad losses on consecutive nights elicits a "meh" response but a five point road win is cause for hand-wringing and dire predictions of a March flame-out.

We should run a PSA before every game warning the viewers that a competitive event has been scheduled and the other team has arranged to participate despite the best wishes of Duke fans. Those fans for whom this is a concern should keep paper bags handy to manage hyperventilation. I understand that taking deep breaths helps, too.

Anybody want to share this idea with the KU fans tonight?

SupaDave
02-06-2013, 11:04 PM
Don't be fooled by TCU's record. They are well coached and headed in the right direction. Also, I can tell you that a good percentage of the team is injured. How do I know? Well, Aaron Durley (back-up freshmen center) just so happens to be my cousin and he's one of their medical red shirts this year (ACL tear - we hate life). One of many in the trainer's room.

This was a BIG win for the program. I can promise you that this is a team to watch. They've got some good things going on down there.

loran16
02-06-2013, 11:32 PM
Don't be fooled by TCU's record. They are well coached and headed in the right direction. Also, I can tell you that a good percentage of the team is injured. How do I know? Well, Aaron Durley (back-up freshmen center) just so happens to be my cousin and he's one of their medical red shirts this year (ACL tear - we hate life). One of many in the trainer's room.

This was a BIG win for the program. I can promise you that this is a team to watch. They've got some good things going on down there.

Dude, they're 278th in Pomeroy...and they're graduating 4 seniors. Yes they've been injured a bit, but they're far worse this year than ever and they're losing most of their production. They might be better next year only because it's hard to be worse, but this is not a team to watch by any definition.

SupaDave
02-07-2013, 07:13 AM
Dude, they're 278th in Pomeroy...and they're graduating 4 seniors. Yes they've been injured a bit, but they're far worse this year than ever and they're losing most of their production. They might be better next year only because it's hard to be worse, but this is not a team to watch by any definition.

Kansas would disagree... And perhaps you don't see my point so I'll elaborate. TCU is in a new conference with a first year coach. They are no powerhouse by any means but they'll be reloading with actual talent (and not JUCO's - 3 of the seniors mentioned are former JUCO players) recruited by Trent in talent rich Texas. Conference play hasn't been easy but Duke fans should know that even ONE injury can be critical in going from a decent team to a doormat overnight. I'm not usually wrong on these things. TCU as a whole is ready to win some basketball games. They've got a top 50 center on the way and a few other pieces that are in the works.

CDu
02-07-2013, 07:27 AM
Kansas would disagree...

But SMU, Northwestern, Houston, Tulsa, and every other team they've faced in the Big-12 would agree...

TCU is really bad this year. They are now #251 in Pomeroy and #203 in the RPI. They are among the worst BCS teams in the country. This game says much more about Kansas not showing up than TCU in my opinion.

They may well have a bright future in the coming years. But this year's team is really, really bad.

pfrduke
02-07-2013, 07:42 AM
Kansas would disagree... And perhaps you don't see my point so I'll elaborate. TCU is in a new conference with a first year coach. They are no powerhouse by any means but they'll be reloading with actual talent (and not JUCO's - 3 of the seniors mentioned are former JUCO players) recruited by Trent in talent rich Texas. Conference play hasn't been easy but Duke fans should know that even ONE injury can be critical in going from a decent team to a doormat overnight. I'm not usually wrong on these things. TCU as a whole is ready to win some basketball games. They've got a top 50 center on the way and a few other pieces that are in the works.

You're talking about what the team could become after some recruiting and guys getting healthy. I don't think anyone is fighting you on that. What the team could become, however, is very different that what the talent level of the team that played last night currently is. And that level is a lot worse than Kansas, a lot worse than anyone else in the Big XII, and possibly worse than any other team in a BCS conference. It was a huge upset.

TexHawk
02-07-2013, 07:43 AM
This has easily been one of the weirdest months of college basketball that I have ever seen. Louisville, KU, and Florida have gone from sky high to shockingly bad (though Louisville is turning it around a bit). Even the mid-majors are going through a strange time. Wichita St has lost 3 in a row, Creighton got destroyed last night...

As a KU fan, *stunned* is the closest word, but that's not really right. Bill Self has been incredibly successful, so most of us are just spoiled. In all but one of his 9 KU seasons, the team has peaked in Jan/Feb. This team was destroying quality opponents in December, but it seems like Temple actually watched some tape, figured them out a bit, and the team has not adjusted at all.

Last night was the twilight zone... Travis Releford, statistically the best shooter in the Big 12, and #2 in the country, shooting 72% as a guard... Took ONE shot. (Naadir Tharpe, the backup PG, took 15.)

Saratoga2
02-07-2013, 08:15 AM
Just makes the point that Div I basketball has a lot of balance this year. We have seen both Florida and Kansas drop games to much weaker (on paper) teams. Of the top teams we have seen recent losses by Michigan, Ohio State and Syracuse. Duke is by no means a lock on the game today. Injuries have played a part in some of the losses, but I don't think either Florida or Kansas can use that excuse.

So enjoy the season and play and don't get bummed out over a loss or two along the way.

rsvman
02-07-2013, 08:25 AM
I would just like to thank the Jayhawks for tempering our Miami loss. I, for one, really appreciate it.


Also, with Florida, Kansas, and Creighton all losing within a 3-day period, perhaps the week's quota of upsets has already been met?

rsvman
02-07-2013, 08:27 AM
...
As a KU fan, *stunned* is the closest word, but that's not really right. Bill Self has been incredibly successful, so most of us are just spoiled. In all but one of his 9 KU seasons, the team has peaked in Jan/Feb. This team was destroying quality opponents in December, but it seems like Temple actually watched some tape, figured them out a bit, and the team has not adjusted at all.
....

It is truly amazing how much this paragraph resembles those of many Duke fans in several threads over the past several weeks, especially the highlighted portion.

Wander
02-07-2013, 10:09 AM
If TCU is a "team to watch," then every single Division 1 team is a team to watch and the term is completely meaningless. Pomeroy has them as literally the worst BCS team, and this is after they got a significant bump from the Kansas game.

This is one of the things that happens when football dictates all the other sports... TCU was a terrible team in the Mountain West, they weren't ready to be in a BCS league in the non-football sports.

rsvman
02-07-2013, 10:35 AM
If TCU is a "team to watch," then every single Division 1 team is a team to watch and the term is completely meaningless. Pomeroy has them as literally the worst BCS team, and this is after they got a significant bump from the Kansas game.
...

This is certainly true.

And yet, as another poster pointed out, "don't sleep on them" is probably good advice, if only because this game proves that a team shouldn't "sleep on" any other team. If TCU can beat Kansas, anything can happen. This actually puts last year's Lehigh loss in a different light for me; Lehigh at least had one probable future NBA player on its team.

My point? Anything can happen in ONE GAME.

CDu
02-07-2013, 12:24 PM
This is certainly true.

And yet, as another poster pointed out, "don't sleep on them" is probably good advice, if only because this game proves that a team shouldn't "sleep on" any other team. If TCU can beat Kansas, anything can happen. This actually puts last year's Lehigh loss in a different light for me; Lehigh at least had one probable future NBA player on its team.

My point? Anything can happen in ONE GAME.

Couldn't agree more.

TCU is really awful this year. They have no business being in the Big-12 in basketball this year. That they beat Kansas just suggests that, if a good team doesn't show up to play, they can lose to just about anyone. It is by no means evidence to suggest that TCU is going anywhere. It just means that nearly any D-1 basketball team can beat any other D-1 basketball team that other team doesn't bring their game.

Now, it may be that, in the coming years, TCU moves to be a respectable member of the Big-12. But nothing about this season aside from this anomalous performance (which is off-the-charts-aberrant for both teams) suggests it will happen.

sporthenry
02-07-2013, 12:27 PM
It is truly amazing how much this paragraph resembles those of many Duke fans in several threads over the past several weeks, especially the highlighted portion.

I think this is a statement that most teams can make with some regularity especially the blue bloods. Teams that are always in the top 5-10 and consistently getting #1 and #2 seeds obviously expect to compete and ultimately win the national title. And if you get a 1 or 2 seed, you probably had a good run of games at some point during the year (be it in Nov/Dec or Jan/Feb) to justify that ranking.

I doubt many teams are that satisfied with their recent March performances. UCLA had that great stretch of 3 straight final 4's but never won a title. Many people thought Izzo was a genius for going to 2 straight F4's including 1 as a 5 seed but the next two years they lost their first game as a 10 seed and last year lost in the S16 as a 1 seed. Only team happy with recent performance is probably Butler.

crimsonandblue
02-07-2013, 12:39 PM
Couldn't agree more.

TCU is really awful this year. They have no business being in the Big-12 in basketball this year. That they beat Kansas just suggests that, if a good team doesn't show up to play, they can lose to just about anyone. It is by no means evidence to suggest that TCU is going anywhere. It just means that nearly any D-1 basketball team can beat any other D-1 basketball team that other team doesn't bring their game.

Now, it may be that, in the coming years, TCU moves to be a respectable member of the Big-12. But nothing about this season aside from this anomalous performance (which is off-the-charts-aberrant for both teams) suggests it will happen.

The game was laughable. TCU is going nowhere, but this Kansas team is in full mental breakdown mode. We weren't a great team before, but we were good defensively and at least serviceable on offense. For over a month now the team has been slowly cratering on offense, which has bled into its defense. And most of the change seems to come from teams getting physical up top with our guards and just flat not guarding our four man, Kevin Young, who isn't much of a shooter. It's completely stymied KU offensively.

Last night was an abomination. TCU was TCU. KU was much worse. It'll be interesting to see if this team can right the ship. We go to Oklahoma, which is solid and then home to KState, which has to be salivating. We hadn't lost back-to-back games in 250+ games, but we may lose four in a row if we don't turn things completely around. Just bizarre.

BigWayne
02-07-2013, 12:43 PM
Couldn't agree more.

TCU is really awful this year. They have no business being in the Big-12 in basketball this year. That they beat Kansas just suggests that, if a good team doesn't show up to play, they can lose to just about anyone. It is by no means evidence to suggest that TCU is going anywhere. It just means that nearly any D-1 basketball team can beat any other D-1 basketball team that other team doesn't bring their game.

Now, it may be that, in the coming years, TCU moves to be a respectable member of the Big-12. But nothing about this season aside from this anomalous performance (which is off-the-charts-aberrant for both teams) suggests it will happen.

TCU did not win this game, Kansas lost it. ESPN has been running highlights of Kansas 1st half shots last night and this morning. They were taking wide open shots that were not defended well by TCU and just bricking them one after another. They made 3 baskets in the first half and shot something like 3-20+. Even the coach admits it:

"It was the worst team that Kansas ever put on the floor, since Dr. Naismith was there," coach Bill Self said. "I think he had some bad teams when he lost to Topeka YMCA and things like that in the first couple years. But for the first half, there hasn't been a team play worse than that offensively."

CDu
02-07-2013, 01:41 PM
The game was laughable. TCU is going nowhere, but this Kansas team is in full mental breakdown mode. We weren't a great team before, but we were good defensively and at least serviceable on offense. For over a month now the team has been slowly cratering on offense, which has bled into its defense. And most of the change seems to come from teams getting physical up top with our guards and just flat not guarding our four man, Kevin Young, who isn't much of a shooter. It's completely stymied KU offensively.

Last night was an abomination. TCU was TCU. KU was much worse. It'll be interesting to see if this team can right the ship. We go to Oklahoma, which is solid and then home to KState, which has to be salivating. We hadn't lost back-to-back games in 250+ games, but we may lose four in a row if we don't turn things completely around. Just bizarre.

Yeah, obviously losing to TCU is a complete aberration. But there were definite warning signs going into the season that this team might struggle offensively. They lost their two best players, including their primary post scorer and their primary ballhandler and perimeter scorer. They added McLemore and Ellis, but there were legitimate questions about this team offensively. No PG leadership (Johnson just isn't cut out for that. No consistent post scorer (Withey is a solid player and fabulous defensively, but not a go-to post player). McLemore and Releford have been terrific, but that's about it.

They had a stretch through December where they scored a ton of points, mostly against inferior teams. But aside from that, it's been a fairly mediocre team offensively.

I don't see this team getting dramatically better offensively this year, and if they face a disciplined, capable defensive team they are likely to struggle to score. Their season will depend on playing elite defense and scoring just enough to get by. And against the elite teams, I'm not sure if that's a formula that will work.

mkirsh
02-07-2013, 01:49 PM
Given the ups and downs in the top of the rankings this year and the "curse" of getting to #1, is this the year that a 16 takes down a 1? Seems as likely as ever this year; just hope it's not us.

crimsonandblue
02-07-2013, 02:55 PM
Yeah, obviously losing to TCU is a complete aberration. But there were definite warning signs going into the season that this team might struggle offensively. They lost their two best players, including their primary post scorer and their primary ballhandler and perimeter scorer. They added McLemore and Ellis, but there were legitimate questions about this team offensively. No PG leadership (Johnson just isn't cut out for that. No consistent post scorer (Withey is a solid player and fabulous defensively, but not a go-to post player). McLemore and Releford have been terrific, but that's about it.

They had a stretch through December where they scored a ton of points, mostly against inferior teams. But aside from that, it's been a fairly mediocre team offensively.

I don't see this team getting dramatically better offensively this year, and if they face a disciplined, capable defensive team they are likely to struggle to score. Their season will depend on playing elite defense and scoring just enough to get by. And against the elite teams, I'm not sure if that's a formula that will work.

Yeah. I think the book's written now on how to play KU and absent a real change, I don't see that we can overcome our limitations to make a real run. If you pressure our guards, we can't get by you particularly well and if we do, we don't make great decisions and you can let your four man play rover to back up your pressuring guards because whether it's Young, Ellis or Traylor at the four, those guys aren't going to hurt you. When teams played us straight up (in December), we were fine. But teams playing the method above have slowed us down and nothing's overcome it.

A-Tex Devil
02-07-2013, 05:26 PM
Yeah. I think the book's written now on how to play KU and absent a real change, I don't see that we can overcome our limitations to make a real run. If you pressure our guards, we can't get by you particularly well and if we do, we don't make great decisions and you can let your four man play rover to back up your pressuring guards because whether it's Young, Ellis or Traylor at the four, those guys aren't going to hurt you. When teams played us straight up (in December), we were fine. But teams playing the method above have slowed us down and nothing's overcome it.

I was at the KU at Texas game. Texas is also less than mediocre this year. But they should have beaten KU that night if not for the teams proclivity for choking away big leads in the final five minutes, oh, and Nadir Tharpe.

KU will struggle against any team that plays its ball handlers tough, forcing it to run half court sets late in the shot clock. Elijah Johnson is not a PG, so they are running a poor man's version of Duke 2009-2010 when Tharpe isn't in the game. Self seems to try to see if he can out-talent teams without a PG, then, if he can't, he'll play Tharpe heavy minutes to try to bring some cohesion to the offense.

Tharpe, however, happened to have a particularly horrible game against TCU.

brevity
02-07-2013, 06:38 PM
If TCU is a "team to watch," then every single Division 1 team is a team to watch and the term is completely meaningless. Pomeroy has them as literally the worst BCS team, and this is after they got a significant bump from the Kansas game.

This is one of the things that happens when football dictates all the other sports... TCU was a terrible team in the Mountain West, they weren't ready to be in a BCS league in the non-football sports.

I'm going to make an extremely mild defense of TCU in 2011-2012, their last year in the Mountain West. They were completely average at 7-7. They had home wins over UNLV and New Mexico, and a home overtime loss to San Diego State. They sort of embodied the nature of that conference, where home court advantage was significant, probably because none of the teams were particularly great on the road.

TexHawk
02-08-2013, 08:26 AM
Yeah, obviously losing to TCU is a complete aberration. But there were definite warning signs going into the season that this team might struggle offensively. They lost their two best players, including their primary post scorer and their primary ballhandler and perimeter scorer. They added McLemore and Ellis, but there were legitimate questions about this team offensively. No PG leadership (Johnson just isn't cut out for that. No consistent post scorer (Withey is a solid player and fabulous defensively, but not a go-to post player). McLemore and Releford have been terrific, but that's about it.

They had a stretch through December where they scored a ton of points, mostly against inferior teams. But aside from that, it's been a fairly mediocre team offensively.

I don't see this team getting dramatically better offensively this year, and if they face a disciplined, capable defensive team they are likely to struggle to score. Their season will depend on playing elite defense and scoring just enough to get by. And against the elite teams, I'm not sure if that's a formula that will work.
I see your point, but I'm still not going to *totally* agree with this. If you match up the points/rebounds/assists lost with Taylor/T-Rob, it likely wouldn't be totally replaced (but close), but defensively the team is much much better. Young, Releford, Tharpe, and Withey are each up over 4 ppg each from last year. McLemore at 16 ppg is about double what I expected. True, Johnson's numbers are down, and Ellis has been a bit of a disappointment.

This team has put up a ton of points against much better defenses than what TCU rolled out the other night. (Yeesh, they put up 80 points on the #10 Kenpom D last Saturday. That game was just a total defensive rebounding meltdown.) The issue, as I see it, is adjustments** and the lack of a true PG that can be creative when other teams take away their bread-and-butter.

** And it's not just adjustments on O, few teams attempt layups with Withey in the vicinity. In December, those were blocks that turned into easy run-outs.

CDu
02-08-2013, 04:14 PM
I see your point, but I'm still not going to *totally* agree with this. If you match up the points/rebounds/assists lost with Taylor/T-Rob, it likely wouldn't be totally replaced (but close), but defensively the team is much much better.

Except that the bolded part simply isn't true. Last year, they were the #4 defensive team in the country, with a defensive efficiency of 86.0. This year, they're the #9 defensive team in the country, with a defensive efficiency of 86.2. At best, they're roughly as good as they were last year defensively (which is reasonable, as the guys they lost weren't their best defensive players). But they are most certainly not "much much better" defensively.


This team has put up a ton of points against much better defenses than what TCU rolled out the other night. (Yeesh, they put up 80 points on the #10 Kenpom D last Saturday. That game was just a total defensive rebounding meltdown.) The issue, as I see it, is adjustments** and the lack of a true PG that can be creative when other teams take away their bread-and-butter.

But the bolded part is exactly what I meant when I said that there were warning signs. They lost their only go-to scoring threat inside, their only go-to scoring threat on the perimeter, and their only playmaker. That left them with a decent-but-not-great post scorer in Withey, a good-shooting-but-not-great-ballhandling player in Releford, a good-shooting-but-only-so-so-ballhandling player in Johnson, and a bunch of unproven players.

McLemore has been a revelation, and he's essentially offset the loss of Taylor's scoring. Without him, this team would be an absolute train wreck offesnively. His emergence, along with teams perhaps not having gameplanned enough for Withey and Releford as offensive weapons, has been enough to make them look decent offensively in the early season.

But, as you said, teams appear to have now adjusted. They're taking Withey and Releford seriously, and they're now taking McLemore VERY seriously. And by focusing on these three players, teams have started to expose the limitations of the others (notably Johnson and the PFs).

Last year, you had a dynamic lead guard who could create offense for himself and others, even when teams clamped down defensively. And you had a dynamic post scorer who you could dump the ball to to get points. This year, you have neither. Those were the warning signs I was talking about. It remains to be seen if they'll find a way to overcome those issues, or if teams will stick with the gameplan of limiting their key 3 and forcing Johnson and the PFs to beat them. But the warning signs were there.