#22

[JasonEvans]

Whoa...

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/campus-rivalry/2012/03/29/parkerx-inset-community.jpg http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/548/968/72572179_display_image.jpg?1291693537

Adam Rowe just reported on Twitter that Duke will give Jabari Parker to opportunity to wear #22 at Duke if Parker wants to. It is unclear is Jay Williams is aware of this, though I imagine he gave it the thumbs up.

Well, personally, as a fan, I think this is a terrible idea. The number is retired. Jay (he was Jason back then) wore it and performed in it in such a way so that we decided no one else should ever wear that number again. We wanted the image of Jay in it to be the lasting image. Just because Parker is a big-time recruit, we should not change how we have honored Jay. What if a lower-ranked recruit or a walk-on wanted #22? Are we treating Parker differently because he is more highly regarded? That doesn't seem right.

What if some stud recruit came along and wanted to wear 31, but Shane did not want to let him do it. Is Shane suddenly doing something mean to the program while Jay was willing to be more giving? What if some recruit comes along and wants to wear #25, do we ask Art Heyman's family for permission?

Look, we retired #22. It is done. I really think no one should get to wear it ever again. Any kid who made this a sticking point in their recruitment is a kid I don't want at Duke anyway.

Let me put it this way -- if Lebron James wanted to play for the Celtics, but said he would only do it if they let him wear #33, what do you think the Celtics would say?

-Jason "http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/72/dd66eb70fe17195fadd65f03992fbc35/l.jpg" Evans

[Newton_14]

Very interesting. If I remember correctly, Kyrie inquired about 11, and was told he could wear half of it. :)

I see your point for sure Jason, and given what we know about Jabari at this point, I would be shocked if he "made it a sticking point". Doesn't seem like that kind of kid (again based solely on the many glowing articles and interviews).

It could be he asked if it was possible, the staff asked Jason, and Jason said "I am fine with it". Would like to know more on this one to be honest.

If he does wear double deuce it will definitely take some getting used too.

And 32/33/31 are like the Holy Grails in that order for Duke hoops. Somewhere down the road though, unless the NCAA changes their current idiotic rules on numbers, some of our retired jerseys will have to be allowed just to abide by the rules and have an available number.

[Old Drum]

They're reporting it's Jabari's "if he wants it." I hope Jabari thinks on it and graciously declines the offer...

[Sir Stealth]

Hate to hear this if true. It's bad to open up a retired number, but it's especially bad at Duke, a program that has always held itself to a higher standard when it comes to retiring numbers. We don't hang "honored" jerseys up there with numbers that players still wear to make our rafters more impressive. Once it goes up, and it was incredibly deserved in the case of 22, it stays up and nobody touches it no matter what. Don't care if Jason said he was cool with it either. I hope that we see this story quickly dismissed as a misunderstanding.

[rthomas]

They're reporting it's Jabari's "if he wants it." I hope Jabari thinks on it and graciously declines the offer...

Let's just say hypothetically that Jabari uses JWills number. and then he stays 3 years or 4 and wins one or two national championships, and has huge numbers. Do you put both jersey's with the same number in the rafters.

The number is and always will be Williams's as far as I am concerned.

[Dev11]

Somewhere down the road though, unless the NCAA changes their current idiotic rules on numbers, some of our retired jerseys will have to be allowed just to abide by the rules and have an available number.

This is the main issue at hand. Granted, we haven't gotten to retire a jersey since 2006 and the state of college basketball will make it more difficult to do so with excellent players leaving early, but at some point we may need to just 'start over' with the retired jerseys. Given that they all are hanging equally up there, I wouldn't want the staff to start picking nits over which ones to make available 'first.'

If Jabari is going to wear 22, I wish that the possibility hadn't been leaked and that K, Jabari, and Jason had just figured it out privately first.

[gus]

It's April 1st already? No? I still hope this is a bad joke.

[sporthenry]

Let's just say hypothetically that Jabari uses JWills number. and then he stays 3 years or 4 and wins one or two national championships, and has huge numbers. Do you put both jersey's with the same number in the rafters.

The number is and always will be Williams's as far as I am concerned.

I wondered this as well. I would hope a kid like that would want to make a name (or number) for himself and not be compared to someone else. Unless he has a very good reason for wearing the #22 and even then, I would hope he doesn't. Although that Williams guy does have #22 and #23 up in the rafters so perhaps he can share one of his numbers.

[vick]

This is the main issue at hand. Granted, we haven't gotten to retire a jersey since 2006 and the state of college basketball will make it more difficult to do so with excellent players leaving early, but at some point we may need to just 'start over' with the retired jerseys. Given that they all are hanging equally up there, I wouldn't want the staff to start picking nits over which ones to make available 'first.'

We aren't really that close to this point though, are we? I believe there are 37 legal jersey numbers, and Duke has retired 13 of them:



00







0
1
2
3
4
5


10
11
12
13
14
15


20
21
22
23
24
25


30
31
32
33
34
35


40
41
42
43
44
45


50
51
52
53
54
55



Even at the rate under Coach K (about one per every three and a half years), it's something like 35 years until there is a real problem (assuming a maximum roster size of around 15). Although this probably presents an argument against the marginal cases people tend to bring up from time to time, I don't think we should be thinking about recycling numbers quite yet.

[OldPhiKap]

It seems to me that, if this is true, JWill thinks enough of this kid to do it. Jason has already compared Jabari to Paul Pierce several times.

I say, if it is okay with Jason, it's more than fine with me. But talk about pressure . . . .

[davekay1971]

Definitely against this.

If Jabari does stay long enough and perform well enough to deserve a retired jersey, I imagine we'd end up with two number 22s in the rafters. That won't cause the end of the universe as we know it (like crossing the streams or something), but it will take away from the "retirement" of a jersey and make all the jerseys up there more like "honored" jerseys. Ugh.

Tell Jabari we love him, we want him here, and there are lots of good numbers left that would look spectacular hanging in the rafters of Cameron with the name "Parker" above them.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Let me put it this way -- if Lebron James wanted to play for the Celtics, but said he would only do it if they let him wear #33, what do you think the Celtics would say?


I have no doubt they would say something like this: "That would be size XXL, correct Mr. James?"

While I agree that #22 is Jason's number and, in my mind, always will be Jason's number, you don't lose a chance to sign a once-in-a-generation type player in LBJ or, at the college level, Jabari over a jersey.

If Jason's cool with it, then I'm cool with it.

[roywhite]

I guess I'm in the minority on this. Not bothered by any number controversy.

Much more interested in Jabari's game than his jersey number.

[SilkyJ]

I guess I'm in the minority on this. Not bothered by any number controversy.

Much more interested in Jabari's game than his jersey number.

I'm with ya. Don't really care....though it does open up a can of worms down the road. That's the real issue. (Though I suppose anyone who made this type of issue a sticking point, isn't really a fit for us character-wise. It would concern me if this was a sticking point for Jabari, though I doubt it is. No harm in asking from his side, especially given that this is post-commitment. Shows he's just asking, its not really something that matters. Can't hold that against him.)

[dukeofcalabash]

It's not the number that was on Williams back that I remember best. It's the skill, along with the heart and desire that was inside the player that I'll always fondly remember! Give 'em whatever number they want, their name tells it all.

[licc85]

Go with #21, Jabari. 21 has some serious history: Chris Duhon, DeMarcus Nelson, Jay Bilas, Tony Lang, Trajan Langdon, Robert Brickey, Bob Bender

Might not be available too much longer :)

[ChillinDuke]

I'm with ya. Don't really care....though it does open up a can of worms down the road. That's the real issue. (Though I suppose anyone who made this type of issue a sticking point, isn't really a fit for us character-wise. It would concern me if this was a sticking point for Jabari, though I doubt it is. No harm in asking from his side, especially given that this is post-commitment. Shows he's just asking, its not really something that matters. Can't hold that against him.)

Yeah. Agreed.

I'm more of a conservative/historical type in that, if it were me, I wouldn't want to touch a retired jersey of someone that came before me. But that's just me. At the end of the day, if Jay, K, and Jabari are all OK with it - it's really up to them. And I'll support their collective decision.

- Chillin

[ForkFondler]

Let's just say hypothetically that Jabari uses JWills number. and then he stays 3 years or 4 and wins one or two national championships, and has huge numbers. Do you put both jersey's with the same number in the rafters.

The number is and always will be Williams's as far as I am concerned.

I don't see why you couldn't have two #22s up there. As long as there is room, of course. Might have to start hanging smaller jerseys.

[g-money]

I have no doubt they would say something like this: "That would be size XXL, correct Mr. James?"

While I agree that #22 is Jason's number and, in my mind, always will be Jason's number, you don't lose a chance to sign a once-in-a-generation type player in LBJ or, at the college level, Jabari over a jersey.

If Jason's cool with it, then I'm cool with it.

I seem to remember Lebron's career taking off around the time he switched from 23 (inspired by MJ) to 6 (inspired by the US Olympic experience). In 10 years we'll see every high school player wanting to wear #6 and saying, "Michael Who?"

Hopefully Jabari will similarly decide to carve out his own identity.

But at the end of the day, it's probably not worth beating the chest over this. It's just a number on a jersey. The letters are much more important.

[mkirsh]

Go with #21, Jabari. 21 has some serious history: Chris Duhon, DeMarcus Nelson, Jay Bilas, Tony Lang, Trajan Langdon, Robert Brickey, Bob Bender

Might not be available too much longer :)

I'd rather him take J-Will's jersey from the rafters than Amile's off his back.

Looking at the list of available numbers, have we ever had a player wear a number in the 50s other than Zoubek and walk ons?

[SupaDave]

If Jordan taught us anything it was that a jersey can be un-retired.

And Pat Riley showed us that retiring a number can be totally meaningless...

Supa "Michael Irvin sure seems happy with Dez Bryant" Dave

[lotusland]

I don't know if it is a big deal of not. Is it a big deal to have your jersey retired? Retired would mean that it can't be worn again so if Parker wears #22 next year then it was not retired and neither were any of the others. I guess it's not a big deal so let's just call them extra special numbers instead of retired.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't know if it is a big deal of not. Is it a big deal to have your jersey retired? Retired would mean that it can't be worn again so if Parker wears #22 next year then it was not retired and neither were any of the others. I guess it's not a big deal so let's just call them extra special numbers instead of retired.

"Honored Jerseys"

This is much ado about nothing. JMO.

[ForkFondler]

I don't know if it is a big deal of not. Is it a big deal to have your jersey retired? Retired would mean that it can't be worn again so if Parker wears #22 next year then it was not retired and neither were any of the others. I guess it's not a big deal so let's just call them extra special numbers instead of retired.

As long as there aren't two Williams jerseys with the same number hanging up there, it still works. So, what we really need to worry about is running out of of Williams jerseys, meaning Jabari can wear number 22 as long as his last name isn't Williams.

[roywhite]

I don't know if it is a big deal of not. Is it a big deal to have your jersey retired? Retired would mean that it can't be worn again so if Parker wears #22 next year then it was not retired and neither were any of the others. I guess it's not a big deal so let's just call them extra special numbers instead of retired.

Yeah, Jason Williams (and the other denizens of the rafters) have been certified as Duke Basketball Royalty. They then can bestow special favors upon some promising young newcomer. Or something like that.

[kmspeaks]

First Thought: No, no, no! Bad idea. Are Duke's jerseys now "Brett Favre Retired" instead of actually retired?




Upon Further Review: My high school softball team prided itself on having one of the best outfields in the state every year. One day at practice the girl who played center field before me came back to visit and practice with us. I started to move to another position before she told me, "get over there, that's all yours now."

If Jay has no problem handing it over then I've got no problem with Jabari wearing it.

[moonpie23]

it bothers me a little....i mean....why "retire" it as all? kinda negates the meaning of it.......

but if Jason is kewl with it....i'm kewl with it...


22-P ?

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I'm not passionately for or against Parker wearing JWill's number if it came down to it, but it does raise the question whether a retired jersey is as great an honor as previously thought. You can argue for or against Parker wearing #22, but it seems like this definitely changes how all retired jerseys are viewed. It's not a step that should be taken lightly, IMO.

[greybeard]

"It's easy to see without looking too far that not much is really sacred." Bob Zimmerman

[sporthenry]

This does negate the whole point in having it retired. As someone alluded to earlier, this has often been a joke used to prod UNC that they retire and honor the jerseys. Now, it would appear we are no better. And if this was done or suggested anywhere else, it would be mocked. How would Chicago fans feel about someone wearing #23? Dolphins fans about someone wearing #13? How about a baseball player wearing #42 now? Not to mention, this is a kid who hasn't even wore a Duke uniform and is only expected to stay one year. It'd be one thing if Lebron wanted to come to Chicago now and asked to wear #23 and that is a proven All NBA player not a HS kid. Duke prides itself on tradition and this would be a slap in the face to that. Even if Jay Williams comes out in support of it, it would probably just him being gracious about it.

[tommy]

I'd rather him take J-Will's jersey from the rafters than Amile's off his back.

Looking at the list of available numbers, have we ever had a player wear a number in the 50s other than Zoubek and walk ons?

Off the top of my head:

Corey Maggette wore 50.
Marty Nessley wore 51.
Billy King wore 55.
Erik Meek wore 52.

[ForkFondler]

I'm not passionately for or against Parker wearing JWill's number if it came down to it, but it does raise the question whether a retired jersey is as great an honor as previously thought. You can argue for or against Parker wearing #22, but it seems like this definitely changes how all retired jerseys are viewed. It's not a step that should be taken lightly, IMO.

Having your jersey hung in the rafters is an honor. The number retirement thing I don't get.

[basket1544]

Retired jerseys have been bestowed upon others before as a huge honor at other schools. I think that West Virginia had a player on their team in 2010 that was wearing a retired jersey. Sometimes a younger brother or a son will wear a family member's retired jersey. Sometimes a player will wear a coach's number even though that coach had a retired jersey. My only real issue with it is that it seems to me that Parker is looking at college as a short stint on his way to the NBA and not concerning himself with making his own history with his own number. If Jay doesn't have a problem with it, I don't.

[OldPhiKap]

"It's easy to see without looking too far that not much is really sacred." Bob Zimmerman

But even the President of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked.


The times, they are a' changing.

[weezie]

If JWill and K are on board, I don't feel my opinion is worth much either way. Let's see what happens.

I've noticed, lately, that all the brass railings and banner hangers in Cameron are getting a tad dingy and are in need of polishing. I nominate all the fraternity/sorority pledge classes. Cameron should shine.

[-bdbd]

I guess I'm in the minority on this. Not bothered by any number controversy.

Much more interested in Jabari's game than his jersey number.


I'm with ya. Don't really care....though it does open up a can of worms down the road. That's the real issue. (Though I suppose anyone who made this type of issue a sticking point, isn't really a fit for us character-wise. It would concern me if this was a sticking point for Jabari, though I doubt it is. No harm in asking from his side, especially given that this is post-commitment. Shows he's just asking, its not really something that matters. Can't hold that against him.)


Yeah. Agreed.

I'm more of a conservative/historical type in that, if it were me, I wouldn't want to touch a retired jersey of someone that came before me. But that's just me. At the end of the day, if Jay, K, and Jabari are all OK with it - it's really up to them. And I'll support their collective decision.

- Chillin

I really agree - it just doesn't matter. It is J-Will's jersey. If he's ok with it, then who are we to say otherwise. I'm much more interested in JP's game than the number on his shirt. (That said, I'd personally not want that kind of my pressure were I the younger kid, nor risk stepping on any toes.) But if DOES wear 22, then we need to all be happy for him (and J-Will), and move on. As for the improbable concern of "retiring the same number twice," I recall it happening occasionally in baseball and they usually work something out (like the younger player eventually taking a different number... and possibly the later number gets honored). Just not a big deal -- it Jay's number and it's his call alone.

[Jarhead]

Not much respect for tradition here, is there? Now we have somebody named Adam Rowe who decides that he wants to muddy up an old Duke tradition. Who is he, and how did we get so jaded about tradition that so many folks in this thread think it's okay? We even had a post here that failed to recognize that the two retired jerseys with the Williams name on them are for Jason Williams and Shelden Williams. Shelden's Number is 23.

I wondered this as well. I would hope a kid like that would want to make a name (or number) for himself and not be compared to someone else. Unless he has a very good reason for wearing the #22 and even then, I would hope he doesn't. Although that Williams guy does have #22 and #23 up in the rafters so perhaps he can share one of his numbers.

[basket1544]

Not much respect for tradition here, is there? Now we have somebody named Adam Rowe who decides that he wants to muddy up an old Duke tradition. Who is he, and how did we get so jaded about tradition that so many folks in this thread think it's okay? We even had a post here that failed to recognize that the two retired jerseys with the Williams name on them are for Jason Williams and Shelden Williams. Shelden's Number is 23.

I believe it was sarcasm.

[arlight]

Does the #22 mean anything significant to Jabari or is it just because he wants to wear his high school number?

Thanks in advance if anybody can shed some light on this.

[licc85]

I'd rather him take J-Will's jersey from the rafters than Amile's off his back.

Looking at the list of available numbers, have we ever had a player wear a number in the 50s other than Zoubek and walk ons?

oh yeah . . i forgot we already had a #21. Silly me.

[tommy]

Having your jersey hung in the rafters is an honor. The number retirement thing I don't get.

They're one and the same thing. Your number gets retired and because it's retired, it hangs forever in the rafters, never to be worn again.

I hate this idea.

If Williams' retired jersey can be worn again, even with his consent, then the whole concept of a number being retired is really obliterated. Might as well take em all down. Yet another manifestation of our coarsened, the present-is-all-that-matters, instant grat society.

[devil84]

We aren't really that close to this point though, are we? I believe there are 37 legal jersey numbers, and Duke has retired 13 of them:



00







0

1
2

3
4
5



10
11
12
13

14

15


20
21
22
23
24
25


30

31
32
33
34

35


40
41

42
43
44
45



50

51
52
53
54

55




Even at the rate under Coach K (about one per every three and a half years), it's something like 35 years until there is a real problem (assuming a maximum roster size of around 15). Although this probably presents an argument against the marginal cases people tend to bring up from time to time, I don't think we should be thinking about recycling numbers quite yet.

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

[blazindw]

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

Rodney Hood will wear #13 next year and is listed on the roster under that number, so consider that one off the board for next year's freshmen.

[ChillinDuke]

Well, maybe it IS time. I've highlighted in red the available numbers for incoming freshmen next year. I didn't highlight 00, as you can only have either 0 or 00, not both on the roster at one time. Given that the rumor is that K doesn't like 0/00 or 1 (Kyrie notwithstanding), and most players don't like 13 or the "big" numbers of 50+ (sometimes even 40+), that leaves the incoming frosh to choose from 5, 30, 34, 41, 42, and 45, unless they can take a number off of a current player's back.

Imagine talking to a recruit. "Hey Coach, can I have my high school number?" "Sorry, son. It's retired. So is the number that's half of it, and double it. And reversed*. You've got these six, maybe eight, numbers to choose from -- more if you like the 50's." And the coach is thinking, "Please, please, please don't figure out that if you play with this number for 3-4 years and become the super stud we think you are, we can't really retire many more jersey numbers." *I understand 22 reversed is still 22, but others have reversed their number for such dilemmas.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that we had retired Kyle Singler's and Nolan Smith's jerseys. And maybe we can retire, say, Mason Plumlee's jersey. That means there are only 3-5 "good" numbers left. Hmmm...now how are we going to retire some current or future player's jersey?

Believe me, I really want those numbers to remain unworn and in the rafters forever. But we can't keep retiring numbers and having available numbers that are attractive for our future stars to wear. Remember, these recruits are teenagers. Things like available numbers are important to them. If everything else is equal, and the other schools in the mix have that available number, would that play into a teenager's mind?

I wish I had a solution. Changing the semantics to "honored" jerseys hung in Cameron, then figuring out what to rename the Hall of Honor sounds like the best way to do that.

With all due respect, Devil84, this view is so overused on the board. I get it, they're teenagers. Are they mature enough to be President of the USA? Probably not. But are they capable of reasonable thought and basic prioritizing? At least to the extent that their number is that likely to weigh on their decision on where to play top-flight college basketball? I mean, I just can't imagine these kids are that short-sighted. At all.

Do these kids care about the school colors too? Breed of dog the mascot is?

They're 17. Not 4.

- Chillin

PS - Sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes it just feels like we marginalize and overlook these young men's intelligence and rationality too frequently.

[-jk]

I tend to think of the retired numbers as belonging to the players in perpetuity. So long as the player agrees to share, I'm ok with it.

Even if my brain will have a very hard time wrapping itself around another player with that number.

And given the one-and-done environment, I'm not really expecting to have a dilemma with a new player getting the same number re-retired. <sigh>

-jk

[airowe]

I tend to think of the retired numbers as belonging to the players in perpetuity. So long as the player agrees to share, I'm ok with it

-jk

Agreed. And Jay agrees to share.

Jabari will only be at Duke for a year. There isn't a chance of the jersey being re-retired. Consider this a loan.

Williams wouldn't have done this for just any old recruit. The fact that it's Jabari sold him on it.

[burnspbesq]

If Jabari wants to wear number 22, he can. In football, soccer, or baseball.

[Matches]

I really have mixed feelings about this. I don't want to be a slave to tradition and fully understand that at some point the supply of available numbers dwindles and becomes a problem. There's something that seems wrong about even approaching a former player and asking for his consent to do this, though.

Maybe if we just changed our policy and said ALL retired numbers are back in play (but would continue to hang in the rafters), I'd be able to get behind it a little more easily. Something about picking out one particular number bothers me though.

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, regardless of what Jason says, I don't like this. A retired number is a retired number, and there has never been a high schooler in HISTORY who is as good as one of our retired guys.

I understand Jason is a Chicago guy (sort of) and so is Jabari and so maybe there is a connection there, but...

[Cameron]

On the one hand, it does seem incredibly ridiculous to retire a number and then 11 years later bring it back out of retirement. It sort of makes the whole retirement ceremony seem like one big, pointless charade. The actual "retirement" obviously meant very little and the next time we are so lucky to have a retirement ceremony, it certainly won't feel all that "special" or unique an event.

On the other hand, I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat, as long as the player SI dubbed as "the best high school player since LeBron" is playing for the Blue Devils. (Chris had awesome hair, FWIW, and I would certainly hope Jabari would remove it as carefully as possible using professional styling scissors, etc.)

[JasonEvans]

Williams wouldn't have done this for just any old recruit. The fact that it's Jabari sold him on it.

That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

On the day Jay Williams number was retired, we (in effect) said to him, "you have been so special here that we never want to see anyone wear this jersey again. It will forever hang in the rafters to remind us of what you did while wearing it. We promise that no one will ever wear #22 again." So, what are we saying now? Are we saying that our word, our traditions, are meaningless... especially when compared to the desires of the right kind of recruit?

I am disgusted. Not because I really care that much about numbers, but because I sense us treating this kid differently than others (and I hate what kind of message that sends about Duke). I am disgusted because I see us thumbing our nose at tradition (one that every other team in sports has, but we seem to be fine with breaking).

To be clear, we are not arguing over "a number" we are arguing over the honor that was conferred upon these players and what that honor now means to us. Is the pledge, the commitment, we made when we honored Jay now null and void? I understand that he may not care, or he may not want to rock the boat, but we -- the fans and the custodians of Duke's traditions -- should care for him. And we should care enough to say NO!

-Jason "I am tremendously bothered by Adam's comment that Jabari, who is yet to arrive at Duke, is somehow more special than other recruits... that is not the Duke/Coach K way and really opens a Pandora's Box of questions/problems" Evans

[dolver]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

[SupaDave]

All this debate reminded me of this tweet...

Thread: Austin Rivers going with 0


Sorry if already posted but here are a couple of interesting tweets from Austin:

"I wanted to wear the family number 25, but it's retired at duke! So I went with 0, 1 is still a possibility but that all depends on Kyrie!"

Supa "Austin - the gift that keeps on giving" Dave

[JasonEvans]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

Well, he better hope he doesn't get drafted by the Celtics ("Easy" Ed McCauley), Cavs (Larry Nance), Mavs (Rolando Blackmon), Rockets (Clyde "The Glyde" Drexler), Lakers (Elgin Baylor), Knicks (Dave DeBusschere), or Trailblazers (Clyde Drexler... again).

Either that or he better hope those teams have the same diminished sense of honor that Duke does when it comes to their legends.

-Jason "color me shocked when I found out that Rolando Blackmon's jersey was retired. Dallas has also retired Brad Davis' #15... some pretty low standards there in Mav Country" Evans

[CharlestonDevil]

The only scenario where I would feel remotely positive about this possibility is if Jabari and Jason had some sort of special relationship. Perhaps that Jason was a role model or hero for Jabari growing up, maybe similar to a Quinn/Nolan relationship, and Jabari requested this in order to honor Jason's contributions to Duke Basketball.

In no way should this be allowed just because Jabari wants to continue wearing his high school number. I wouldn't care if it was the second coming of Lebron, Kobe, or anyone else.

** On another note, maybe this is another example of K's change in his stance on jersey numbers. It was said forever that he would not allow a player to wear #1 "Because Duke is #1". Yet he did it for Kyrie.

[mkirsh]

That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

Evans

I'm split on this. I don't feel that strongly that having another player wear #22 diminishes the honor for Jason Williams - his name and number is still one of the select few honored in the rafters for everyone to see when they walk into Cameron; having other people wear #22 doesn't take anything away from his legacy IMO. Actually kind of like re-issuing hallowed numbers like Syracuse football #44 to let the incoming player know they have a lot of tradition to uphold.

What does bother me is what you have above - differential treatment and star player mentality. Kyrie couldn't wear #11, Amile can't wear his HS #25, but Jabari can wear #22? Also the issue you raised in the original post is a great one - it now makes retired players the bad guys of having to say no. Can't imagine Christian Laettner every letting anyone else wear #32, but he will look like a jerk when he has to say no - not a great position to put your legends in. I think if we do this it has to be all the way and not special exemptions - "retired" no longer means out of circulation, but rather hanging in the rafters in an honored way (which potentially leads to "inflation" of the honor since actually retiring a number has real opportunity cost).

[Cameron]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

The crazy thing is, because of the reason you identify above, if Duke were to tell him that he could not have the number, I could actually see that being a deal breaker. Of course, that would never be the "official" reason for backing out of a verbal, but it would probably be the official reason, nonetheless. As great a kid as Jabari appears to be -- I mean, I don't actually know him enough to know what kind of a person he really is, and nobody else here does either -- these guys like Jabari that are once-a-decade type players are not just basketball stars, they are also businessmen from the School of LeBron. This stuff, such as jersey numbers and other branding opportunities, are important.

That said, I agree completely with JasonEvans. As I stated earlier in the thread, unretiring Jason's number makes a mockery of every jersey number that has ever been retired at Duke. If it happens, the whole tradition is over. What a joke.

[JasonEvans]

The only scenario where I would feel remotely positive about this possibility is if Jabari and Jason had some sort of special relationship. Perhaps that Jason was a role model or hero for Jabari growing up, maybe similar to a Quinn/Nolan relationship, and Jabari requested this in order to honor Jason's contributions to Duke Basketball.

In no way should this be allowed just because Jabari wants to continue wearing his high school number. I wouldn't care if it was the second coming of Lebron, Kobe, or anyone else.

Bingo -- I 100% would agree with this. If Jabari was doing this specifically because he wanted to honor Jay, that would be a whole different story. I am sure we would have heard during his recruitment about how Jabari looked up to Jay as the "player I want to be some day" or something like that. In that case, it would be OK with me (so long as Duke and Jay agreed as well). But that is clearly not the case here. We have not heard anything about Jay being one of Jabari's trusted confidants or Jabari having some special regard for Jay above dozens of other stellar college hoops players over the years.

-Jason "sigh..." Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We're knee deep in conference play, two games behind the leader, less than a week removed from one of our most disturbing losses in decades, missing one of our senior leaders for an indefinite amount of time due to injury, and a thread on jersey numbers gets 3 pages in less than 24 hours?

Seems to me we have actual problems to worry about.

As far as "on topic" - if Jay/son is okay with it, who are we to argue?

Now, let's go roast some Demon Deacons.

Go Duke

[Reilly]

... I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat...

I do. That would sort of creep me out.

[Mike Corey]

For fear of revealing another website's premium information, I will direct you to this interview from The Devil's Den (http://duke.scout.com/2/1261877.html). (Caveat: I am a long-serving and unpaid moderator for this site.)

I believe the interview with Jabari Parker's mother, should you have access to it, will reveal why any frustration at Jabari is misplaced over this particular issue.

[Durham Thunder]

Leave the jersey's retired, and let our amazing players forge a legacy that is entirely their own.

2 brings to mind Derek Jeter; 3 Dale Earnhardt, and 4 Brett Favre. Given there are other great athletes with these numbers, the aforementioned athletes took these numbers, and made them their own in their own sport. Blue Devils already think of Jason Williams when 22 is thrown out there. I think a lot of people have enjoyed knowing that glory is sustained now and forever, knowing that sacred numbers such as 32, 33, and 4 will ALWAYS be held in high regard at Duke University.

[JasonEvans]

My good friend Devil84 has been pointing out the simple logistical problem we face as we begin to run out of numbers, especially the more desirable ones. So, toward that end, I would have no problem at all if Duke said the following:


Because of the limits on numbers in basketball and the tremendous number of great players to have been at Duke, we face the very real possibility of running out of numbers some day. As it stands today, we are already severely limited. So, starting with the 2013-14 season we are instituting a new policy. From now on, a "retired" number is one that will remain out of circulation for 10 years**. After that, it will again be available for use by any current player who wants it. This in no way changes how we feel about the special, special players who have their jersey's hanging in the rafters. It is merely a concession we have to make to math.

I would be more than fine with that. It would be an acknowledgement of the limits we are running up against and would be treating all past honorees, as well as all future players, the same.

My problem with what we are discussing now is that it comes across as something special for Jabari Parker. We should not "change the rules" for one special recruit. No recruit is worth that.

--Jason " ** - Personally, I would rather the time limit be 15 or 20 years, but the 10 year window allows Jabari to wear Jason's number, which was retired in 2002, IIRC" Evans

[hudlow]

Tell JB he can have that number...his senior year.

[weezie]

...I don't care if Jabari Parker scalps Christian Laettner and wears his hair as a hat...(Chris had awesome hair, FWIW, and I would certainly hope Jabari would remove it as carefully as possible using professional styling scissors, etc.)


I do. That would sort of creep me out.

Reilly, I do think you overlooked Cameron's qualifying statement. Laettner did indeed have, and still has, a fine head of hair. hahaha:D
I still get a little giddy.

[Ichabod Drain]

Things change... That's just the way it is...

I would rather see someone wear Williams Jersey 10 years later than someone wearing Nolan and Kyles numbers as soon as they leave. And that's no disrespect to the kids wearing them right now.

[Durham Thunder]

The retired numbers at Duke have been iron-clad. I'm thinking that Jay-Will offered this up first, rather than K inquiring to Jay-Will. Because otherwise, why now? I'm positive others in the past 20 years have asked about 33, 24, and 10, and evidently the answer's been no.

[airowe]

That is a horrible, horrible attitude on this. It undercuts everything about the "work ethic" and "earn it in practice" attitude that is part of any successful program and is a huge part of the Duke program. This is tantamount to promising playing time to a kid while recruiting him.

So, Jabari is good enough for Duke to break tradition and give him someone retired number. What about Matt Jones? Is being a top 25 recruit enough that Duke treats you differently from other recruits, or do you have to be top 10? Top 5? Top 2?

I hear all the "its just a number, who cares?" arguments, but if it is "just a number" then we need to ask ourselves why we are diminishing the honor we conferred upon some special Duke legends for a "silly number."

On the day Jay Williams number was retired, we (in effect) said to him, "you have been so special here that we never want to see anyone wear this jersey again. It will forever hang in the rafters to remind us of what you did while wearing it. We promise that no one will ever wear #22 again." So, what are we saying now? Are we saying that our word, our traditions, are meaningless... especially when compared to the desires of the right kind of recruit?

I am disgusted. Not because I really care that much about numbers, but because I sense us treating this kid differently than others (and I hate what kind of message that sends about Duke). I am disgusted because I see us thumbing our nose at tradition (one that every other team in sports has, but we seem to be fine with breaking).

To be clear, we are not arguing over "a number" we are arguing over the honor that was conferred upon these players and what that honor now means to us. Is the pledge, the commitment, we made when we honored Jay now null and void? I understand that he may not care, or he may not want to rock the boat, but we -- the fans and the custodians of Duke's traditions -- should care for him. And we should care enough to say NO!

-Jason "I am tremendously bothered by Adam's comment that Jabari, who is yet to arrive at Duke, is somehow more special than other recruits... that is not the Duke/Coach K way and really opens a Pandora's Box of questions/problems" Evans

I share many of your reservations. Just to clarify, that was Jay's response, not mine.

[Rich]

We aren't really that close to this point though, are we? I believe there are 37 legal jersey numbers, and Duke has retired 13 of them:



00







0
1
2
3
4
5


10
11
12
13
14
15


20
21
22
23
24
25


30
31
32
33
34
35


40
41
42
43
44
45


50
51
52
53
54
55





Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?

[devil84]

With all due respect, Devil84, this view is so overused on the board. I get it, they're teenagers. Are they mature enough to be President of the USA? Probably not. But are they capable of reasonable thought and basic prioritizing? At least to the extent that their number is that likely to weigh on their decision on where to play top-flight college basketball? I mean, I just can't imagine these kids are that short-sighted. At all.

Do these kids care about the school colors too? Breed of dog the mascot is?

They're 17. Not 4.

- Chillin

PS - Sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes it just feels like we marginalize and overlook these young men's intelligence and rationality too frequently.

You're right, Chillin...many young men are intelligent and rational. However, I was a team member in the 80's and saw what recruits favored then, and my youngest child (now a senior in college) and some of his friends were recruited by DI schools (but not revenue sports). I can safely say that some of the strangest things can play in the decision-making process. And there are even new issues since my son was recruited just 4 years ago, as Dolver makes a good point about branding. That is now emphasized in high school/college for all students, not just athletes.

NOTE: It took a while to pull some data together, and in the interim, Jason Evans posted a much more succinct and eloquent statement of the problem and a good solution. However, it took a while to do the following research, so I'm gonna post it anyway.

People around here were a bit miffed that Singler and Smith's numbers weren't retired, so what happens if they are? Remove two more numbers. There could be another player from this year's squad. And I'm sure there will be more in the future. What happens when we get don't have enough numbers left? Do we stop honoring players? Maybe that's a moot point. Like -jk says, one-and-dones may make jersey retirements a thing of the past...though Singler, Smith, and current possible NPOY player are awfully current.

And how many numbers is "not enough" to field a team? Coach K uses a fairly short bench. UNC has 16 on their roster. Using ESPN's rosters, the average is about 14 (note that Duke shows 11, as Rodney Hood and Andre Dawkins are not on the roster there, but are shown on Duke's website). Duke's next coach after Coach K may want a deeper bench. I'd think we'd want to be able to have 13 scholarship players + 4 walkons (patterning after the schools with the largest rosters, noting that the largest rosters did not include possible redshirts).

While I was perusing the rosters, I noted that there are currently 10 players wearing numbers in the 40s, and only 4 players wearing numbers in the 50s in the ACC. Those players: Todd Zafirovski (SR), Michael Ojo (FSU, FR), Grant O'Brien (WFU, FR), and Doug Neidrich (WFU, SO). Add in the new ACC teams and you add 4 more players wearing numbers in the 40s, and none in the 50s. Toss in the remaining top 10 teams (AP Poll), you add 6 numbers in the 40s and 6 in the 50s. Four of those players wearing numbers in the 50s are on Arizona's team, and have played a combined 64 total career minutes (averaging 1-2 minutes each game they play). Only Oregon's Tony Woods, wearing #50, plays significant minutes out of the 8 players wearing numbers in the 50s on the 24 teams I checked (<2% of the 337 players).The 40s aren't much better, accounting for 26 players, or 7%.

Looking at this data, thinking that numbers in the 50s are just as good as any other number is like saying a flip phone is just as good as a smart phone. Think many college kids would feel honored being offered a free flip phone to come to campus?

I respect the fact that we started a tradition of retiring numbers. But now that we have only 13 popular numbers left (including 00/0 as one number and 13), and 9 more that are worn by fewer than 10% of players, we're almost out of numbers. We can retire 5 more and then we are bascially out of numbers (or artificially limiting our team size).

So, do we stop retiring jerseys to give players a choice of numbers? Do we keep retiring numbers and be one of the few schools that will assign unpopular numbers? Do we amend the tradition to allow for new traditions and practices, like branding in high school? And when do we do that? Now? In 5 years? In 2027, when the most currently retired jerseys have been retired for 20 years? Lots of questions.

[Newton_14]

Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?

Because when they report a foul to the official scorer, they can't provide the number with 2 hands or less. Which is mind-boggling stupid.


And I think Devil84 made a valid point, in that many of the desirable numbers are either retired or in use, so it severely limits the choices for new recruits. I doubt many guards and wings want to wear 54 or 42 or 51.

We are almost at the point where, if the NCAA does not change the rule, we will have to start freeing up more of the retired jerseys.

[Billy Dat]

Does anyone know the rationale behind only using these numbers? Why does the NCAA have an issue with numbers 6 through 9?

I believe it is all to do with the ref indicating to the scorers table which player committed the foul using the fingers on his/her hands. Doing a 6, might be misinterpreted as a 15, or 51.

I think it's absurd.

[rsvman]

In this day and age, we could just call it "22 v2.0" and be done with it.

[tommy]

I believe it is all to do with the ref indicating to the scorers table which player committed the foul using the fingers on his/her hands. Doing a 6, might be misinterpreted as a 15, or 51.

I think it's absurd.

Of course it's absurd. You guys beat me to it, but the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five.

The NBA refs seems to have no problem in signifying fouls or technicals fouls or whatever on guys with higher digit numbers. Rondo is #9, LeBron James is #6, Rasheed Wallace is #36, Rodman was #91, Kobe was #8, JJ is #7, etc. There are tons of them. All the ref does is look at the scorer and say "Thirty six over the back" and when doing so, with one hand he flashes three fingers, then takes those three fingers down and then flashes all five fingers on one hand and one finger on the other. What's the scorer going to think, the foul is on # 315 or #351? C'mon. He can also hear the number the ref is calling out, or at least see him mouthing it. Not rocket science here, and he can always ask for clarification if necessary, which will be very rare.

The NBA refs and scorers handle the higher digits just fine. So why can't the college folks do the same? This is silly.

[kmspeaks]

Just a guess, but I would assume that in today's day and age, and with kids being more branding savvy, this has a lot to do with his twitter name - @JabariParker22

Twitter handles can be changed pretty easily. He could even use the change as a way to interact with fans. After being traded to the Braves (where Hell will freeze over before somebody else wears 10) Justin Upton invited the fans to come up with a new handle for him, since @jus10up10 no longer works when he's wearing 8 in Atlanta.

[ChillinDuke]

Of course it's absurd. You guys beat me to it, but the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five.

The NBA refs seems to have no problem in signifying fouls or technicals fouls or whatever on guys with higher digit numbers. Rondo is #9, LeBron James is #6, Rasheed Wallace is #36, Rodman was #91, Kobe was #8, JJ is #7, etc. There are tons of them. All the ref does is look at the scorer and say "Thirty six over the back" and when doing so, with one hand he flashes three fingers, then takes those three fingers down and then flashes all five fingers on one hand and one finger on the other. What's the scorer going to think, the foul is on # 315 or #351? C'mon. He can also hear the number the ref is calling out, or at least see him mouthing it. Not rocket science here, and he can always ask for clarification if necessary, which will be very rare.

The NBA refs and scorers handle the higher digits just fine. So why can't the college folks do the same? This is silly.

When you put it that way, quite silly indeed.

- Chillin

[Reilly]

... the easy solution to this problem is to change the rule stating that all numbers can contain only digits one through five....

Also could use fractions, Eddie Gaedel-style:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel

[JasonEvans]

Someone mentioned to me that they are worried we are blaming Parker in this brouhaha. I don't speak for everyone, but let me say for myself that that could not be further from the truth. I don't think Parker is the bad guy here. Heck, the interview with his mother makes it clear that this was not his idea but appears to have come from either JWill and/or K. It is not even clear if Jabari would take #22 out of respect for what JWill did in that uniform.

So, I want to be 100% clear that my issue is a) with Duke for potentially going back on longstanding traditions and commitments to our best former players and b) the appearance that Jabari is being treated differently than other prominent and less-touted recruits.

-Jason "and with that, I'm done ;) " Evans

[SoCalDukeFan]

I personally think we have too many retired numbers and have no problem unretiring any of them. I really don't see a great difference between those I put at the bottom of the retired jerseys and those at the top who are not retired.

I would only retire the truly great never to be forgotten players and maybe those that did more than just basketball. Pat Tillman ASU football for example, Jackie Robinson in baseball.

Regarding Jason Williams and JP. I don't know the context but lets suppose Jason sees JP play, sees his HS number, and tells Coach K, "Hey if it would help in the recruiting, he can wear 22." I have no problem with that.

Lets suppose there was a top recruit whose father had been a great athlete with a famous number and he wanted to have his Dad's number to honor him, but Duke had retired the number. What should Coach K tell the recruit?

SoCal

[JasonEvans]

So, I have been made aware that the most common definition of a retired number says it stays out of circulation "...unless the player so-honored permits it." I have also been made aware that other schools have permitted retired numbers to be worn. At UCLA, Walt Hazzard gave permission for Kevin Love to wear #42.

The upshot of this new info, combined with the reports that JWill is the one who initiated the notion of Jabari wearing #22, gives me great pause. Heck, more than that it makes me change my stance on this whole thing. I had no idea of the above facts and, in light of them, this does not seem like Duke breaking longstanding traditions or being disrespectful. I feel awful for starting this whole mess...

-Jason "mea-culpa... I need a break from myself" Evans

[sporthenry]

I personally think we have too many retired numbers and have no problem unretiring any of them. I really don't see a great difference between those I put at the bottom of the retired jerseys and those at the top who are not retired.

I would only retire the truly great never to be forgotten players and maybe those that did more than just basketball. Pat Tillman ASU football for example, Jackie Robinson in baseball.

Regarding Jason Williams and JP. I don't know the context but lets suppose Jason sees JP play, sees his HS number, and tells Coach K, "Hey if it would help in the recruiting, he can wear 22." I have no problem with that.

Lets suppose there was a top recruit whose father had been a great athlete with a famous number and he wanted to have his Dad's number to honor him, but Duke had retired the number. What should Coach K tell the recruit?

SoCal

Regarding the son wearing the father's number, that is completely different. I think that is another way to pay tribute to the number. The son obviously knows and understands the importance. Sure, we don't know everything behind Jabari Parker's story with the number and Jay Williams but right now, it appears there isn't much of a relationship between the 2. And as JE has pointed out, if you are going to take this step, than you have to effective un-retire all the numbers or is this procedure just open to the #2 recruit in the class who was on an ESPN cover?

[juise]

And as JE has pointed out, if you are going to take this step, than you have to effective un-retire all the numbers or is this procedure just open to the #2 recruit in the class who was on an ESPN cover?

You've got it all wrong.

It was a Sports Illustrated cover. ;)

[mkirsh]

So, I have been made aware that the most common definition of a retired number says it stays out of circulation "...unless the player so-honored permits it." I have also been made aware that other schools have permitted retired numbers to be worn. At UCLA, Walt Hazzard gave permission for Kevin Love to wear #42.

The upshot of this new info, combined with the reports that JWill is the one who initiated the notion of Jabari wearing #22, gives me great pause. Heck, more than that it makes me change my stance on this whole thing. I had no idea of the above facts and, in light of them, this does not seem like Duke breaking longstanding traditions or being disrespectful. I feel awful for starting this whole mess...

-Jason "mea-culpa... I need a break from myself" Evans


Interesting. Didn't know about Love and UCLA.

On a related note, I've always wondered why the Bulls/NBA wouldn't let Jordan wear his own #23 upon returning from his hiatus - just a ploy to sell #45 jerseys?

[sagegrouse]

As an old timer here (although not the oldest timer -- thanks to Jarhead and Jim3K), the "Duke Tradition" was not to retire jerseys at all. Dick Groat was the only one, and AD Eddie Cameron's rationale was that Groat was an A-A in two sports. Vic Bubas tried really hard, it is said, to get his A-A's jerseys retired but no dice. Therefore, my contemporaries Artie and Jeff had to wait until my daughter was at Duke to see their jerseys in the rafters. And then Cherokee got to wear a retired hersey, good old #44. Art has been quoted as saying that he didn't get along with Cameron, but Art said a lot of stuff, and I don't know that I buy it, given the incredible political skills of Mr. Cameron.

Anyway, the crux of the #22 story is that this is apparently JWill's idea -- so who could object to that?

[A different story, to which I would invite Sumner's comments, but Cameron is still having a positive effect inside the ACC, in that he really went to bat for Clemson and some of the schools outside of NC in the old So Con and early ACC days. Duke made a lot of friends back then. That is one reason I never bought the stories of Clemson fleeing the ACC: Sports are about loyalties, and Duke's sponsporship of Clemson on various matters still apparently casts a shadow. Everywhere but UMd, of course, which is led by carpetbaggers. And also, of course, Clemson never hired a strutting egomaniac like Frank McGuire, who led USC out of the ACC.]

sagegrouse
'To be fair, my House J 2nd floor mate, Jim3K, is at most a month older than me'

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, I have been made aware that the most common definition of a retired number says it stays out of circulation "...unless the player so-honored permits it." I have also been made aware that other schools have permitted retired numbers to be worn. At UCLA, Walt Hazzard gave permission for Kevin Love to wear #42.


-Jason "mea-culpa... I need a break from myself" Evans

Huh. Who knew? Makes me feel justfied in my knee jerk reaction.

Go Duke

[Turtleboy]

For fear of revealing another website's premium information, I will direct you to this interview from The Devil's Den (http://duke.scout.com/2/1261877.html). (Caveat: I am a long-serving and unpaid moderator for this site.)

I believe the interview with Jabari Parker's mother, should you have access to it, will reveal why any frustration at Jabari is misplaced over this particular issue.Where is the danger in revealing such info? Non-members still can't get to it.

[hurleyfor3]

This is a five-page thread? Wow.


Corey Maggette wore 50.
Marty Nessley wore 51.
Billy King wore 55.
Erik Meek wore 52.

Christian Ast = 54. Hey, he won two titles! It's a shame more people don't wear 54, as it is a fine member of the set of positive integers.

Fifty-three, though... now there's an ugly number.


Because when they report a foul to the official scorer, they can't provide the number with 2 hands or less. Which is mind-boggling stupid.

Especially considering the nba is ok with any two-digit number, although they wouldn't let Dennis Rodman use a leading zero, so he had to settle for 91.

I don't see why the ncaa couldn't allow 6 if you didn't also have a 51, 7 if you didn't also have 52 and so on. Or just signal 6 through 9 the way they do on trading floors.


All the ref does is look at the scorer and say "Thirty six over the back" and when doing so, with one hand he flashes three fingers, then takes those three fingers down and then flashes all five fingers on one hand and one finger on the other.

Oh, you beat me to it. Besides, nba refs often mention the name of the player already. "It's on Kobe, number 8," for example.

[hurleyfor3]

Also could use fractions, Eddie Gaedel-style:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel

This in fact will be the solution in the 31st century.

3147

[sporthenry]

I don't see why the ncaa couldn't allow 6 if you didn't also have a 51, 7 if you didn't also have 52 and so on. Or just signal 6 through 9 the way they do on trading floors.



Oh, you beat me to it. Besides, nba refs often mention the name of the player already. "It's on Kobe, number 8," for example.

I think they do this to simplify things for a number of reasons. For one, NCAA arenas often seem to be much louder than their NBA counterparts. Additionally the refs and players all know each other in the NBA. In college, these refs are reffing games all over the country with players from many different conferences. It would be impossible for the refs or even the scorer to know everyone on all the teams. They could use things like different hand signals but I think they want to simplify it and with seemingly 30+ numbers, they don't see a huge reason for changing the rules which could end up resulting in a foul recorded on the wrong person.

[Sir Stealth]

Traditions matter, especially in college sports. Without intangibles, honors, traditions...it's just a game. If it's just a game, there's no reason to care about it at all. If UCLA let Kevin Love wear one of their retired numbers, then they have dampened their tradition, even if not drastically so.

If you scoff at this and really only are worried about the effect on actual basketball to be played in the future, what happens when a future recruit isn't deemed to be quite as special as Jabari and doesn't understand why a number won't be unretired for him when it was unretired for someone else before? Where do you draw the line?

I don't know anything that suggests that Jabari should be blamed for this, for all I know J-Will came up with it himself. But I still say it's a bad idea.

[Mike Corey]

Heck, the interview with his mother makes it clear that this was not his idea but appears to have come from either JWill and/or K. It is not even clear if Jabari would take #22 out of respect for what JWill did in that uniform.

To those being critical of Jabari Parker here, I would direct you to Jason Evans' post on page 4, quoted above.

[geraldsneighbor]

And factually incorrect.

I love Jason Williams as much as the next person, but aren't some people getting a little worked up over this for no reason? It's a number. If J-Will is good with it, then so am I.

This cracks me up in a sense because I remember seeing threads on this board years ago of people asking what will happen when Duke runs out of numbers from retiring all of them. They were going to have to be worn again anyways. Forever is a long time to never use a number again.

Again, it is a number. People made a big deal out of Austin and Kyrie being the first Duke players to wear 0 and 1 for no reason, too. I for one think its pretty cool of Jason to provide permission for Jabari to wear it if he would like.

[brevity]

As loathe as I am to contribute to page 5 of a thread that is based on something that may not be an issue at all, I feel the need to shut down a certain train of thought: that Jay (or Jason) Williams' opinion, flexibility, or permission on this actually matters. It does not.

A great number of you seem to be confused about this because Duke -- like most schools -- puts last names on the back of jerseys. This does not mean that the person with that last name has any ownership in the jersey. The jersey Duke retired was #22, not Williams #22. By retiring a jersey, the institution is honoring a specific player by promising that no one else* will ever wear that number. Sure, there was a glorious past with that number, but your present accomplishments as a student-athlete were so rare and exceptional that the number will have no future.

Other threads on this subject go into this point in further detail, but the decision to retire a jersey is not unilateral by the coach, either. The university plays a role in it. Duke especially takes the term "student-athlete" seriously, and there is definitely an academic element to jersey retirement. Which means that the decision to unretire a jersey is also institutional in nature, and not left to a single person.

And while I feel that unretiring the #22 jersey for anyone other than Jay Williams is ridiculous, it's not my honor to give or take away. It's nice if/when Jay Williams is offered some input into the decision, but ultimately not necessary.

*No one else of that gender, apparently. Andre Dawkins is assigned Alana Beard's number.

[Blue KevIL]

As an old timer here (although not the oldest timer -- thanks to Jarhead and Jim3K), the "Duke Tradition" was not to retire jerseys at all. Dick Groat was the only one, and AD Eddie Cameron's rationale was that Groat was an A-A in two sports. Vic Bubas tried really hard, it is said, to get his A-A's jerseys retired but no dice. Therefore, my contemporaries Artie and Jeff had to wait until my daughter was at Duke to see their jerseys in the rafters. And then Cherokee got to wear a retired hersey, good old #44. Art has been quoted as saying that he didn't get along with Cameron, but Art said a lot of stuff, and I don't know that I buy it, given the incredible political skills of Mr. Cameron.


The #44 jersey for Jeff Mullins was retired on 12/06/1994; Cherokee Parks was issued the #44 in 1991-92 prior to it being retired and continued to wear it until the end of his senior season in 1994-95.

Also, not sure if it has been mentioned: when Barry Bonds signed with San Francisco as free agent in Dec 1992, "The Giants even have gotten permission from (Willie) Mays to allow Bonds to wear his No. 24, even though it has been retired by the team"

"I want to say how excited I am to be able to go back home and share something with my family and the people I grew up with," said an emotional Bonds. "I was born on July 24, 1964, and 24 has always been my favorite number. It's great to have grown up with such a great hero and then have the chance to keep his name alive. I want to thank the Giants for talking to Willie and allowing this to happen."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-12-09/sports/1992344212_1_barry-bonds-bob-lurie-case-bonds

Ultimately, "...Bonds never got to wear 24 - fans and columnists complained, and he settled on 25, which his dad, Bobby, wore..."

http://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Did-Giants-special-treatment-of-Bonds-contribute-2521262.php#ixzz2JQQ4Q2uj

[Blue KevIL]

Interesting. Didn't know about Love and UCLA.

On a related note, I've always wondered why the Bulls/NBA wouldn't let Jordan wear his own #23 upon returning from his hiatus - just a ploy to sell #45 jerseys?

Jordan chose to wear #45 when he returned: "He was back, albeit with the unorthodox No. 45 as he wanted to leave No. 23 behind, and attempted to carry the Bulls to another title." http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

The Chicago Bulls were fined $100,000 by the NBA yesterday for allowing Jordan to return to his familiar No. 23 during the playoffs without notifying the league. http://articles.philly.com/1995-06-22/sports/25691507_1_number-switch-bulls-boston-celtics

This NYT article spells it all out: http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/11/sports/1995-nba-playoffs-bulls-change-the-numbers-that-matter.html
Basically, Jordan had sub-par Game 1 against Orlando in the East Semi-finals and Nick Anderson talked smack about how #45 wasn't as good as #23...


That left John Ligmanowski, the Bulls' equipment manager, to explain the genesis of his decision to wear his old number.

"It was my idea," Ligmanowski said as he was cornered against a wall in the arena by cameras, microphones and notebooks. "After the loss the other day, I suggested it to him. Since he came back, I carry around both jerseys. He basically decided before the game tonight."

Some coincidence, huh? Only Monday, Nick Anderson, the Magic guard who shut down Jordan in Game 1 and snuck up from behind and poked the ball away from him with about 10 seconds to go, said: "No. 45 is not No. 23. I couldn't have done that to No. 23." Anderson added that Jordan, at 32, was nowhere near Jordan at 28 or 29 years of age.

"Honestly, I did not notice it right away," said Anderson, who finished with 16 points but only 4 after halftime. "But 23, he made some shots. He wasn't saying anything. He was just playing basketball."

[subzero02]

It's Jason's number to give away... His opinion is the only one that should matter

[Jarhead]

As an old timer here (although not the oldest timer -- thanks to Jarhead and Jim3K), the "Duke Tradition" was not to retire jerseys at all. Dick Groat was the only one, and AD Eddie Cameron's rationale was that Groat was an A-A in two sports. Vic Bubas tried really hard, it is said, to get his A-A's jerseys retired but no dice. Therefore, my contemporaries Artie and Jeff had to wait until my daughter was at Duke to see their jerseys in the rafters. And then Cherokee got to wear a retired hersey, good old #44. Art has been quoted as saying that he didn't get along with Cameron, but Art said a lot of stuff, and I don't know that I buy it, given the incredible political skills of Mr. Cameron.

Anyway, the crux of the #22 story is that this is apparently JWill's idea -- so who could object to that?

[A different story, to which I would invite Sumner's comments, but Cameron is still having a positive effect inside the ACC, in that he really went to bat for Clemson and some of the schools outside of NC in the old So Con and early ACC days. Duke made a lot of friends back then. That is one reason I never bought the stories of Clemson fleeing the ACC: Sports are about loyalties, and Duke's sponsporship of Clemson on various matters still apparently casts a shadow. Everywhere but UMd, of course, which is led by carpetbaggers. And also, of course, Clemson never hired a strutting egomaniac like Frank McGuire, who led USC out of the ACC.]

sagegrouse
'To be fair, my House J 2nd floor mate, Jim3K, is at most a month older than me'

sage, my following comments address only the sentence that I bolded. When South Carolina left the ACC many folks thought Frank McGuire was the culprit. Later on I heard differently. Paul Dietzel was the Football coach when they left in 1971. He was also the Athletic Director. As I recall, he was reported to have visions of Notre Dame-like success with the football program, so he supposedly made the ACC departure move. Another story I recall hearing is that he had a prime recruit for his program, but he was rejected by the ACC office for failure to meet the academic standards of the conference. I can't find it now, but Wikipedia supports that scenario. It wasn't until 1991 that they joined the SEC. The football program competed as an independent for 20 years.

[throatybeard]

Devil84, as usual, has my proxy on this. We're caught in a numbers game.

I would argue this: college basketball, as such, has only been around a bit more than 100 years. If you're going to have a tradition like this, it's only logical that it will crumble beneath the weight of time. We don't want to become UNC, with tons of laundry on the ceiling, but maybe Carolina's 1999 (Okulaja, seriously?) is our 2040. If you expect this game will last hundreds of years, it's unreasonable to assume the rules that applied in 1952 when Groat was retired will be the same ones in 2052.

Tempus edax rerum, people.

I like the idea of the old guy granting some sort of exemption to the new guy. As I've argued for years, given the rough qualifications for retirement, it's pretty absurd that Verga and Alarie aren't in the club. And we wouldn't even lose any jersey numbers out of circulation since those are the Hurley/Laettner numbers. Verga's problem is that they weren't retiring numbers back then, and Alarie's is that he was the classmate of this highest-scoring player in school history. We'd gotten over that last problem by 2006 (see SWill and JJ). Maybe you could take the same number [mostly] out of circulation, mostly, but honor multiple guys on that number. This would even go into the future. JJ says, yeah, some AAU twit can have 4. If Twit 4 turns into amazing, great, he gets added to JJ's banner. If not, who cares--he's gone.

Indeed, maybe Carolina's stupid two-tier system makes some sense. Make six or so numbers sacrosanct and "honor" the other guys. That might last 400 years.

If you'll excuse me, I'm gonna take a shower.

[Skitzle]

Surprised no one has brought this up, but the Chinese actually count to 10 on one hand.

http://www.instructables.com/id/HOW-TO-COUNT-TO-TEN-ON-ONE-HAND-in-Chinese/

Seems like another potential solution.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Interesting side note, JP's own #22 has now been retired midseason at his high school. So if he wears 22 at Duke, he'll have worn it twice after it was retired. (Albeit the one he has now DOES belong to him.)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/still-middle-senior-season-jabari-parker-high-school-221158346.html

[gus]

Surprised no one has brought this up, but the Chinese actually count to 10 on one hand.

http://www.instructables.com/id/HOW-TO-COUNT-TO-TEN-ON-ONE-HAND-in-Chinese/

Seems like another potential solution.

Meh. I can count to 31 on one hand.

[The Gordog]

It's Jason's number to give away... His opinion is the only one that should matter

Can hardly believe I am commenting on this thread, but this is precisely wrong. Retirement is an honor granted to him, he did not buy it therefore he does not own it. The University retires numbers and Duke University will do what K thinks they should do. IMHO, there is no way K will let one of his players jerseys be un-retired.

[sagegrouse]

Meh. I can count to 31 on one hand.

Which means that you can count to 961 on two hands? ;) -- sage

[airowe]

Can hardly believe I am commenting on this thread, but this is precisely wrong. Retirement is an honor granted to him, he did not buy it therefore he does not own it. The University retires numbers and Duke University will do what K thinks they should do. IMHO, there is no way K will let one of his players jerseys be un-retired.

From the article: (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=2&c=1261877&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fduke.scout.com%2f2%2f126 1877.html)


In a general conversation, Coach K told Jabari that you can wear Jason Williams's old number.

[The Gordog]

From the article: (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=2&c=1261877&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fduke.scout.com%2f2%2f126 1877.html)

I don't subscribe, but it looks like that is not actually a quote from K but rather second had heresay, which would be third hand by the time it gets to us. I will stand by my opinion on the matter for the time being.

[gus]

Which means that you can count to 961 on two hands? ;) -- sage

1023, actually.

eta: there 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count in digital, and those that can't.

[Ichabod Drain]

I don't subscribe, but it looks like that is not actually a quote from K but rather second had heresay, which would be third hand by the time it gets to us. I will stand by my opinion on the matter for the time being.

If there's a link to the second hand I do not believe it counts as third hand judging by the laws of heresayedness, unlees you're counting the author as the third hand at which point were sliding down the hill without knowing where the cactus are.

[sagegrouse]

1023, actually.

eta: there 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count in digital, and those that can't.

Oh, I see. But when I did the calculation, I got 32 for one hand and 1024 for two.
For one hand:

0 fingers - 1 way
1 finger - 5 ways
2 fingers - 10 ways (5 take 2?)
3 fingers - 10 ways (same)
4 fingers - 5
5 fingers - 1
Total - 32

Of course, I probably did it wrong.

sage

[hurleyfor3]

Using trading-floor hand signals one can signal up to 999 with a single hand. Actually 1999, with buying distinguished from selling and zero on its own. Plus the twelve months and a variety of other signals.

[airowe]

I don't subscribe, but it looks like that is not actually a quote from K but rather second had heresay, which would be third hand by the time it gets to us. I will stand by my opinion on the matter for the time being.

That quote is from Jabari Parker's mother Lola.

[mkirsh]

Not sure if this has been covered in another thread (mods feel free to move/delete if it has been), but looks like Jabari will wear #1 next season, so retired jerseys are safe for the time being.

https://twitter.com/dukebasketball/status/330028119945773056/photo/1

[CLW]

Not sure if this has been covered in another thread (mods feel free to move/delete if it has been), but looks like Jabari will wear #1 next season, so retired jerseys are safe for the time being.

https://twitter.com/dukebasketball/status/330028119945773056/photo/1

I guess that means Hood has a "new" # as well. I seem to recall him wearing #13 at Countdown to Craziness.

[tbyers11]

I guess that means Hood has a "new" # as well. I seem to recall him wearing #13 at Countdown to Craziness.

Hood tweeted (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2013/04/09/rodney-hood-to-wear-no-5-next-season/) last month that he will be wearing #5 next year.

[Newton_14]

Hood tweeted (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2013/04/09/rodney-hood-to-wear-no-5-next-season/) last month that he will be wearing #5 next year.

I saw an article a couple weeks back that showed the numbers that all the freshman (sans Jabari) would wear next year, meant to post it but never got around to it. Now I can't find it. Go figure. Old age hurts!
:)
If anyone has the link or info please post. thanks

[blazindw]

Hood tweeted (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2013/04/09/rodney-hood-to-wear-no-5-next-season/) last month that he will be wearing #5 next year.

And Dre will wear #34 next year.