MBB: Miami 90, Duke 63 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here. And if you can't be civil, don't post. There's lots to criticize here - effort, luck, any number of things, but no bashing.

[throatybeard]

Well, at least Miami didn't trample a guy in a wheel chair.

[striker219]

Next play.

[CLW]

the 3rd most lopsided loss by a #1 team. the team just did not show up tonight and they got steam rolled. time to regroup and PRAY Kelly returns SOON.

[Les Grossman]

Well, at least Miami didn't trample a guy in a wheel chair.

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

[throatybeard]

ESPN just answered my question.

Largest margins of victory over a #1 team:

1) Kentucky beat #1 SJU by 41, 12/17/51
2) UCLA beat #1 Houston by 32, 3/22/68

This is third.

[FerryFor50]

Positives:

- they didn't give up; they just played badly
- Murphy showed some promise
- uh... Miami might get dinged by the acc for frank haith's transgressions?

Negatives:

- everything. Throw this game out and call it a mulligan. Next play.

[throatybeard]

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

I have some recommendations in general, but right now I'm consuming malt liquor straight out the can.

[dyedwab]

the 3rd most lopsided loss by a #1 team. the team just did not show up tonight and they got steam rolled. time to regroup and PRAY Kelly returns SOON.

Yeah, it'll be great if Kelly gets back. The problem was far, far deeper tonight. We got beat repeatedly to every loose ball. We made dumb decisions on offense. And defense was, well, not very good.

On the bright side, Alex gave us some nice minutes....and....we don't have to play Miami in Miami again this season....

[Newton_14]

3 thoughts

Thank God for Alex Murphy

Miami will rue the day they slapped the floor in unison to mock a staple of the Duke Program, and mock the Duke team

Next Play

[IBleedBlue]

What was the floor slap towards the end of the game? I clearly didn't understand their intent there - was that mocking our floorslapping or was that to show their own intensity today?
Either way, we got our necks handed to us ...looks like we lose one game each year with a 20 point margin...I hope we are ready for NC state and Miami at home...

[FerryFor50]

So, maybe Carolina will lose to tech....

[CLW]

Murphy/Jefferson - 11/17

Rest of the Team - 11/56

Cook/Thornton/Curry - 1/29. WOW!

[freshmanjs]

Next play.

overused and misunderstood. the next play philosophy is about not getting distracted in the game by the play that came before. it's a way of staying focused.

it DOES NOT have anything to do with ignoring problems with the team or a bad performance.

[FerryFor50]

3 thoughts

Thank God for Alex Murphy

Miami will rue the day they slapped the floor in unison to mock a staple of the Duke Program, and mock the Duke team

Next Play

If your only method of motivation is dislike of another team, then you aren't going to go very far in march.

[chaosmage]

well.. I don't know what to think. I have no clue what to say other than move on.

I'd LOVE to be in practice tomorrow. But only as a human. A fly might get roasted. This is one of those times that I think the final score will be up on the scoreboard in Cameron.

Next play.

[jacone21]

That game reminds me of that time when I was a child playing in the back yard, and a stink bug flew into my mouth.

[FerryFor50]

overused and misunderstood. the next play philosophy is about not getting distracted in the game by the play that came before. it's a way of staying focused.

it DOES NOT have anything to do with ignoring problems with the team or a bad performance.

I disagree. If the issue was effort, then there is a problem. If the issue is missed shots and running into a hot team while you are missing a key player, then next play. Curry will never again go 0-10+ in his duke career.

[chaosmage]

overused and misunderstood. the next play philosophy is about not getting distracted in the game by the play that came before. it's a way of staying focused.

it DOES NOT have anything to do with ignoring problems with the team or a bad performance.

Agreed. But it does mean that you can't let this game hang over you and affect your confidence for the next game. Shooters shoot through the slump, they don't stop shooting.

We have to go out in the next game, learn from the mistakes, but not let it bring you down.

[striker219]

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

Well, we finally got a Trader Joe's in Wilmington and I've been pretty impressed with the Boatswain beers. Great value in their American IPA and Double IPA. And for another bright spot on the night, I tried TJ's Mandarin Orange Chicken for dinner this evening and I was pretty impressed. I won't be eating it on game day again, but if you like Chinese themed fried chicken tossed in a sweet sauce it's pretty decent.

Game related, it was nice to see Rasheed scoring the ball decently well for two games in a row.

[PSurprise]

Man, this one's difficult to swallow. I missed the 1st half (thankfully), but I thought it would've done well just to sit all the starters at once and see what all the reserves might do. It really could not have gotten much worse.

Mason's finding it tough to be the only consistent presence inside the 3-point line as well as the only one on the boards. I'm not sure why K didn't try to put MP3 in along with Mason. Once this game got out of hand, I think this game could've been used as a little experimentation for rotations to try. That's one thing that kind of gets to me with K on occassion, he tends to stick to his guns, even in the face of an overwhelming defeat like this one. As other posters have stated, it was very difficult to watch.

I hope the guys can get it together for the near future. I think they'll have to go back to the drawing board somewhat and figure out what to do without a mobile, 6-10 3-point shooter. Do we go small and fast? Do we go "big" with Mason and Marshall? Tough game.
I was impressed with Murphy for what I saw of him in the second half. I think he may deserve some more time if he continues to play aggressively within the flow (for what that's worth this game) of the offense.

I'm looking forward to a better performance from EVERYONE next game.

[hillsborodevil]

Could Randolph Childress father the entire Miami team?

With or without Ryan Kelly the free throw percentage of MP2 is a HUGE liability going forward.

Tomorrow is another day. Go Tech!!!!!!

[freshmanjs]

I disagree. If the issue was effort, then there is a problem. If the issue is missed shots and running into a hot team while you are missing a key player, then next play. Curry will never again go 0-10+ in his duke career.

i don't know if there is an effort issue or not. but i do know that this wasn't just bad luck. we got our butts kicked. definitely important to learn from that and improve. not wise to just ignore it and say oh well, bad luck.

[rthomas]

Hats off to Lehigh, they played a great game.

[dcar1985]

That had zero to do with missing Ryan, we just got flat out beatdown. Gotta learn from it and move on....it's hard to match teams intensity when it seems like they're playing in the National Championship when they see Duke.

[FerryFor50]

i don't know if there is an effort issue or not. but i do know that this wasn't just bad luck. we got our butts kicked. definitely important to learn from that and improve. not wise to just ignore it and say oh well, bad luck.

They will learn from it. Next play doesn't mean "forget that game." It means "it's a long season" and one loss is simply that - one loss.

[moonpie23]

it's not the end of the world (or the season).....we took a lickin from G'town in much the same way and recovered. Use it...


it's hard when the game is going down like that to NOT think how discombobulated they seemed to be..... bummer.....



I still love my team, and i'm sure you guys do too.....just an ugly night...

[Kjeffrey]

There were some signs of trouble with this team even before Ryan got hurt. Since the Christmas break it seems like they have not played with the same intensity. They have had many sluggish starts and maybe it is finally catching up to them. Tonight there were lots of wide open missed shots in the early going which unfortunately seemed to set the tone for the rest of the game. it is hard to tell which was worse tonight - the offense or the defense.

[jkidd31]

I was at work late and forgot the game was on. Checked the score and I'm glad I forgot.

[throatybeard]

Man, Schlafly's got this scotch ale...

...what were we talking about?

I guess at the end of the ESPN timeslot, you have to talk about whether this exposes fatal flaws or is a statistical anomaly. The statistics hurt me pretty bad and I won't be offering a formal opinion on such.

[grossbus]

we peaked in nov???

is there enough time to peak again?


more minutes for murphy!

fewer for thornton.

[jipops]

I don't think this was "one of those games" or flukish in any way. We had a ton of time to prepare for this. This was a huge, huge ACC game on the road. Unfortunately I think this may actually be who we are now. It's so easy to dismiss this as part of missing Kelly, but there a few truths to this that seem cumulative. Before the season I didn't think we would be a very good outside shooting team. With Kelly floating on the perimeter he not only opened up the lane for Mason he also kept the ball moving around the perimeter so guys like Thornton, Cook, and Sheed got open stand-still shots. Those guys don't get those shots anymore. Now it is apparent that we really only have one perimeter threat who is playing on a bum leg. When he is cold, we really have nothing on the perimeter. Mason is also clearly struggling. He has never been effective outside of 8 feet from the hoop and now he rarely gets himself in position closer than that.

Defensively is where the mask truly has been lifted. We couldn't guard anyone tonight. Miami was at another level and we just don't have the guards to stay in front. Miami was bigger, quicker, more physical, more experienced and really just have more talent on the floor.

I honestly thought the wheels were getting a little loose in December already. We really never looked sharp that whole month, sure the holiday always has something to do with that but we really didn't look impressive. Once Kelly went down a couple of wheels came off. No clue what the answers are right now.

[Chicago 1995]

We didn't get waxed tonight just because Kelly wasn't there.

Miami was better prepared. Miami played harder. Miami played better. We basically had no business being on that court. Whatever we did for the last six days, it was wrong. Every bit of it wrong.

That was really disheartening. Really, really disheartening.

[Kjeffrey]

Man, this one's difficult to swallow. I missed the 1st half (thankfully), but I thought it would've done well just to sit all the starters at once and see what all the reserves might do. It really could not have gotten much worse.

Mason's finding it tough to be the only consistent presence inside the 3-point line as well as the only one on the boards. I'm not sure why K didn't try to put MP3 in along with Mason. Once this game got out of hand, I think this game could've been used as a little experimentation for rotations to try. That's one thing that kind of gets to me with K on occassion, he tends to stick to his guns, even in the face of an overwhelming defeat like this one. As other posters have stated, it was very difficult to watch.

I hope the guys can get it together for the near future. I think they'll have to go back to the drawing board somewhat and figure out what to do without a mobile, 6-10 3-point shooter. Do we go small and fast? Do we go "big" with Mason and Marshall? Tough game.
I was impressed with Murphy for what I saw of him in the second half. I think he may deserve some more time if he continues to play aggressively within the flow (for what that's worth this game) of the offense.

I'm looking forward to a better performance from EVERYONE next game.


I too wonder why Marshall has not gotten more PT especially tonight. How much worse could he have done?

[throatybeard]

we took a lickin from G'town in much the same way

That was by like a dozen or 14. Not like this.

[jipops]

we peaked in nov???

is there enough time to peak again?


more minutes for murphy!

fewer for thornton.

I disagree with this. Murphy put up some nice offensive numbers but he couldn't guard you or me out there tonight.

[dukelifer]

The loss was bad as Duke was never in this game- but a few bright spots, nevertheless. First Alex Murphy had a good game. He did it when Duke was down but still he rose above the ashes and that may bode well moving forward. Jefferson also played well and we saw the angry Sulaimon come back- angry Sulaimon is good for the team. On any given night we do not know how Curry will play. Tonight he was not himself- perhaps his leg- perhaps the guards of Miami- but he was absent and Duke cannot win without Curry and Kelly hitting from deep. Duke is a flawed and fragile team. The margin for error is razor thin. This team has time to get better but expect some very rocky games on the road until Kelly is fully back- which may not be for a while. Bottom line is that Duke needs to win all the games at home and all against the lower half of the league (can't do what State is doing) and hope they can eek out one or two tough road games. They need to manage the season and hope that Kelly has enough time to get back into the mix. This is mostly mental folks and confidence comes with winning. Hopefully that will start with the next game.

[FanFair]

Before anyone bashes me for being a first time poster, I have been a DBR follower since the "Christmas Tree" days [for those of you who remember]. I graduated with Jim Sumner, lived with him in Windsor (and had to put up with Bobby Heller and Roy Towlen [personal aside]). I have been a Duke fan since 1961. Tonight was an absolute aberration in Duke basketball, in that a very talented team simply got outplayed. Teams in the past have been outplayed, but not with this talent. Our seniors have gotten lazy. I fully believe that these young men began to believe their own hype, which is not winning-healthy [see Loiusville]. But this is a team that had improved until Ryan went out. It has not improved since, but it has had no time. I thought after a week that they would step it up. Alas, not. They will improve, in time. But it will take time. I do know that the staff will not ask Ryan to play until he is ready. But in the meantime, the season will be a growing and learning time. An "L" is an "L". It will get better.

[Kjeffrey]

more minutes for murphy!

fewer for thornton.

I have been saying that all year!

[Duke76]

Hats off to Lehigh, they played a great game.

saying "next play"....he's saying "i won't forget this game for a season and you guys better not either."..they looked like they all had mono,
absolutely no energy...like they didn't want to be there....my goodness...Plumlee has got to learn how to move back to the right when he's making that move to the center from the left side...just plant your left foot and move back to the right to the basket

[Jarhead]

I turned the TV off with about 9 minutes left in the game. I cannot recall ever doing that. Mrs. Jarhead was so upset, she left the TV room before halftime, and didn't return. Coach K now has a really tough task, and a tremendous opportunity. Let's go Duke.

[burnspbesq]

Between Monday night's second half and tonight's game ...

"I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue."

[jv001]

90 points given up to a team that does not come close to scoring that many on almost any given night. Our defense was terrible. Once Miami began to make baskets, they had the confidence to beat us and we were ice cold and had no confidence. This game looked like some of the early 70 games. We have to pick it up both on defense and offense. GoDuke!

[MartyClark]

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

"Cane and Ebel", Two Brothers Brewing Company, Warrenville, Illinois. Really good rye beer. I think I'll have another.

I don't see any silver lining in this cloud. I lean toward the school of "exposing basic flaws" vs. "statistical anamolies".

[loran16]

I'm making a separate thread here because a fair number of posters are saying things like: "Duke just didn't bring it tonight" or "Duke didn't have fight in them tonight." And it won't just be posters, so I'm not calling anyone out here - this will be what some columnists will right too. It's a convenient narrative that is easy to run with and Sportswriters love a convenient narrative (See Te'o, Manti).

But it's lazy. And Wrong. Duke may have been outplayed by Miami tonight. But the large gap between the two teams was caused not by a lack of fight, lack of passion, or just not bringing it.....but by the stroke of luck.

Consider a shooter, let's say Seth Curry, who if left open makes 60% of his 3s (This is way too high, but let's say he can do this in practice). If Curry takes 100 wide open 3s, he'll make 60. But he'll also miss 40.

And here's the thing: these misses? They can come spread apart or they can come in bunches. The reason for this is simple: Humans aren't robots. If a player does the same thing 100 times, he'll fail a certain amount of the time simply because human beings simply can't repeat actions perfectly over and over again - there is always variation. This is why even J.J. Redick would miss a few free throws here and there, and would on rare occasion miss a few in a row! And these misses aren't caused by pressure or by a lack of passion or heart. No. These misses are just caused by the random variations of the human body. And as they're random, how they bunch up is nothing but luck.

Let's give an example of how this works: Let's say our 60% shooter plays 3 games in a row and goes 6/7 in each of them. It can happen. Then the next game he goes 0-9. His total? 60% - 18/30. Did the player suck in the last game because of lack of skill? No. Luck just caught up to him.

---------

What happened tonight was what I just described - Duke's shooters missed lots of open shots - not because of lack of heart, fight, whatever. Because of dumb luck. It happens. And when it does the team will have trouble winning.....

especially when the converse happens also! Because just as a team can have bad luck, so can the other team have good luck. Kenny Kadji is a 44% shooter - he went 9/11. Durand Scott is secretly a bad 3 point shooter, he hit 3 of his four, all of which were defended well. Etc. Etc.

There will come nights when both good and bad luck hit simultaneously. You hope they don't happen in the tournament, but they can and that's why the one game sample size is impossible to predict. And that's why tonight happened.

-----------

Guys this is how NC State beat Duke by a lot in our 2010 year - a game that some posters on this board may remember made me cry in a separate thread. Later that year we won the title. That loss was an illusion (Duke did get better in that year, but it was never as bad as it was in that state game, all because of luck).

[JBDuke]

I'm beginning to think that this is a psychologically fragile team. Normally, you'd think a team with as many upperclassmen as we've got wouldn't be so, but I'm wondering...

Mason's FT shooting has always appeared to me to be a confidence thing. As many have noted, after a good start to the year, his FT shooting has been below 60% since the calendar flipped to December. He's also regressed somewhat in his aggressive low post play, often hesitating, sometimes even shooting those ugly fade away or drifting-across-the-lane shots that we've seen so much from him before. I certainly don't see these trends as examples of confidence.

Seth is hampered by his injury, and he's only practicing about 1/4 of the time. That may impact his own confidence, and it certainly impacts his ability to provide leadership in practice.

Josh and Tyler both put out a lot of effort and don't lie down for anybody, but they're also limited in their ability to lead on the floor. Neither can carry the team on offense, and with Ryan out, we need players that can contribute more offensively. They both play hard and play pretty good defense - Tyler especially - but both are limited athletically.

Quinn has shown flashes of being a confident, almost arrogant floor leader, but he has few performances on which to base that attitude. Last year was essentially lost for him, and it took him a few game to hit his stride this year. He's been brilliant at times, but also had some real inconsistency in his own offense. After tonight, he's only made 3 of his last 16 3-pointers and 10 of his last 37 total FGAs.

And Alex, Amile, Rasheed, and Marshall are all freshman.

So, who's the guy who is going to grab the rest by the jersey and say "We're not going down without a fight - not on my watch. Gimme the darned ball!"?

[roywhite]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

[loran16]

I'm beginning to think that this is a psychologically fragile team. Normally, you'd think a team with as many upperclassmen as we've got wouldn't be so, but I'm wondering...

Mason's FT shooting has always appeared to me to be a confidence thing. As many have noted, after a good start to the year, his FT shooting has been below 60% since the calendar flipped to December. He's also regressed somewhat in his aggressive low post play, often hesitating, sometimes even shooting those ugly fade away or drifting-across-the-lane shots that we've seen so much from him before. I certainly don't see these trends as examples of confidence.

Seth is hampered by his injury, and he's only practicing about 1/4 of the time. That may impact his own confidence, and it certainly impacts his ability to provide leadership in practice.

Josh and Tyler both put out a lot of effort and don't lie down for anybody, but they're also limited in their ability to lead on the floor. Neither can carry the team on offense, and with Ryan out, we need players that can contribute more offensively. They both play hard and play pretty good defense - Tyler especially - but both are limited athletically.

Quinn has shown flashes of being a confident, almost arrogant floor leader, but he has few performances on which to base that attitude. Last year was essentially lost for him, and it took him a few game to hit his stride this year. He's been brilliant at times, but also had some real inconsistency in his own offense. After tonight, he's only made 3 of his last 16 3-pointers and 10 of his last 37 total FGAs.

And Alex, Amile, Rasheed, and Marshall are all freshman.

So, who's the guy who is going to grab the rest by the jersey and say "We're not going down without a fight - not on my watch. Gimme the darned ball!"?

Read my post above please. Rather than psychoanalyze this team, realize that sometimes shots don't fall. It happens even to great teams - say like Carolina @ FSU last year, or Duke @ NC State in 2010, or @UVA in 91 (I know a mythology has sprouted about that game but please).

[subzero02]

ESPN just answered my question.

Largest margins of victory over a #1 team:

1) Kentucky beat #1 SJU by 41, 12/17/51
2) UCLA beat #1 Houston by 32, 3/22/68

This is third.

That's a tough fact to deal with... I think practice might start at RDU airport around midnight... Issues with a lack of effort will not be tolerated... Seth needs more of a killer instinct, I agree with Jwill

[DevilYouthCoach]

That had zero to do with missing Ryan, we just got flat out beatdown. Gotta learn from it and move on....it's hard to match teams intensity when it seems like they're playing in the National Championship when they see Duke.


Matching or Exceeding the intensity of your opponent is the first requirement of winning. We didn't come close. And actually, it's easy to see why. We are depressed and worried and tentative, because the truth is that ever since Kelly went down, we simply are not the same team. A big, smart guy like Kelly who can shoot threes would be central to anyone's team and without him we are nothing like the same team we were. Our guys have to suck it up, realize that they are now underdogs on the road everywhere they play, and go out there with fury in their heart. That's the only way we are going to win.

[loran16]

Matching or Exceeding the intensity of your opponent is the first requirement of winning. We didn't come close. And actually, it's easy to see why. We are depressed and worried and tentative, because the truth is that ever since Kelly went down, we simply are not the same team. A big, smart guy like Kelly who can shoot threes would be central to anyone's team and without him we are nothing like the same team we were. Our guys have to suck it up, realize that they are now underdogs on the road everywhere they play, and go out there with fury in their heart. That's the only way we are going to win.

Again, "intensity"? What does that even mean. During their big run, we had a bunch of open shots that we just missed. If they go in, are we suddenly having "intensity?" If Scott and Kadji - two bad 3 point shooters for their careers believe it or not - don't hit contested 3s to start their big run, would Miami have less intensity?

This is not about heart. It's insulting to the players to keep saying that.

I know it sucks to think that sometimes losses are out of our control and can't be solved by simple practice. But it's the truth.

[pamtar]

Did I miss something? Did the U actually slap the floor in unison to mock us? Someone please clarify.

Other than that I don't have much to say about tonight's game. I live in the redneck hell-hole of Beaufort County so whatever good beers we can buy are usually made by New Belgium. Um, Alex Murphy did OK?

Oh yeah, the ball has to go through Mason if we're gonna score. He needs to touch the ball around 50% of our possessions. Seth cannot score off the dribble anymore. Maybe at the start of the season he could but those leg(s) are not holding up right now, and it shows. Sheed and Quinn need to step the (expletive) up. There is no reason Quinn should not be scoring 10-15 a game at this point. If Mason isn't open then drive it to the basket and finish or kick. I don't care if he misses his first 5 every game. He's got to look to score. We are becoming one dimensional without a third option. (If that even makes sense mathematically.)

FWIW, if Seth and Quinn score their avg, we only lose by 10ish.

[6th Man]

We looked alarmingly unathletic tonight.

[Cameron]

Forget the microbrew. This is what Ambien is for.

[Duke76]

I'm beginning to think that this is a psychologically fragile team. Normally, you'd think a team with as many upperclassmen as we've got wouldn't be so, but I'm wondering...

Mason's FT shooting has always appeared to me to be a confidence thing. As many have noted, after a good start to the year, his FT shooting has been below 60% since the calendar flipped to December. He's also regressed somewhat in his aggressive low post play, often hesitating, sometimes even shooting those ugly fade away or drifting-across-the-lane shots that we've seen so much from him before. I certainly don't see these trends as examples of confidence.

Seth is hampered by his injury, and he's only practicing about 1/4 of the time. That may impact his own confidence, and it certainly impacts his ability to provide leadership in practice.

Josh and Tyler both put out a lot of effort and don't lie down for anybody, but they're also limited in their ability to lead on the floor. Neither can carry the team on offense, and with Ryan out, we need players that can contribute more offensively. They both play hard and play pretty good defense - Tyler especially - but both are limited athletically.

Quinn has shown flashes of being a confident, almost arrogant floor leader, but he has few performances on which to base that attitude. Last year was essentially lost for him, and it took him a few game to hit his stride this year. He's been brilliant at times, but also had some real inconsistency in his own offense. After tonight, he's only made 3 of his last 16 3-pointers and 10 of his last 37 total FGAs.

And Alex, Amile, Rasheed, and Marshall are all freshman.

So, who's the guy who is going to grab the rest by the jersey and say "We're not going down without a fight - not on my watch. Gimme the darned ball!"?


I vote for Rasheed but really Mason has just lost many of his positive post moves like he has forgotten how to move left right left right give me drop step or two

[mr. synellinden]

That game reminds me of that time when I was a child playing in the back yard, and a stink bug flew into my mouth.

POTD (decade, not day)

[grossbus]

"Did I miss something? Did the U actually slap the floor in unison to mock us? Someone please clarify."

yes, late in the game. don't really know if it was done to mock us, but they did it.

[sporthenry]

All I cay say is that it looked like K was sick at this performance. Watching them slap the floor, have fun and smile for the last 10 minutes of the game. That is sickening. We can question how hard they did play but I can only hope that K and Duke never forget this as I would love to see a floor slap back in Cameron this time going the other way. But the best way to keep them from slapping the floor and wiping that smile off their face is to beat them down. Hopefully, Miami awoke a sleeping giant.

[Class of '94]

I'm so ticked off right now. As many have pointed out, this team tonight didn't play hard for 40 minutes and didn't play defense. IMO They let their offensive struggles affect their defense. Very similar to the State game, they got killed in transition. Duke was once again exposed in transition defense (or lack thereof) by Miami. Our guards were non-existent and Rashe ed disappeared after that first 3 he made. I was really disappointed in Curry's play tonight. As a fifth year senior, I expected more from him. Maybe the injury is finally catching up with him. The only senior that I thought battled out there in the game was Mason. This game reminded me of the Clemson game a few years ago where Duke got its butts handed to them by Clemson. This team has to remember this game for the rest of the season and never let this happen again. Right now without Ryan, this team defensively is starting to look like last year's team now. As an poster pointed out earlier, whatever they did for the last 6 days did not carry over into this game; and that is very disappointing. This team has lost it's edge and I agree that it started imo after the Ohio State game. This team played soft tonight and did not fight. They collectively need to regain that hunger and chip on their shoulders and remind themselves that Duke teams play hard all the time and they play defense. I think we're now going to see what kind of leaders Seth, Ryan and Mason are from this point forward.

[Duke76]

Did I miss something? Did the U actually slap the floor in unison to mock us? Someone please clarify.

Other than that I don't have much to say about tonight's game. I live in the redneck hell-hole of Beaufort County so whatever good beers we can buy are usually made by New Belgium. Um, Alex Murphy did OK?

Oh yeah, the ball has to go through Mason if we're gonna score. He needs to touch the ball around 50% of our possessions. Seth cannot score off the dribble anymore. Maybe at the start of the season he could but those leg(s) are not holding up right now, and it shows. Sheed and Quinn need to step the (expletive) up. There is no reason Quinn should not be scoring 10-15 a game at this point. If Mason isn't open then drive it to the basket and finish or kick. I don't care if he misses his first 5 every game. He's got to look to score. We are becoming one dimensional without a third option. (If that even makes sense mathematically.)

FWIW, if Seth and Quinn score their avg, we only lose by 10ish.

which is a sign of lack of confidence...our guys have lost their confidence...we can get it back but they gotta play with a swagger and that has gone for now.........kelly will save the day..

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Did I miss something? Did the U actually slap the floor in unison to mock us? Someone please clarify.
.

That's exactly what they did, about midway into the second half.

I thought two things killed Duke tonight.

First was a poor defensive game from Cook on Larkin.

Second, there was no Duke answer for Kadji.

Add to that poor shooting, and it's not Duke's night.

[DukeWarhead]

I got a nosebleed and blackeye from watching that one. Ouch. Did anybody get the plate number from that truck???

As impossible as it seems, gotta find a way to laugh about this one. The coaches and players won't, but as fans we can afford to try and shrug it off as some wacky super-bad off night for Duke basketball. The problem is, we are starting to have at least one of these per season. I seem to recall that we went more than a full decade (1998-2009) without a loss like this. (20+ points) Did JWill or JJ ever walk off the court after losing by more than 15???

[cptnflash]

"Did I miss something? Did the U actually slap the floor in unison to mock us? Someone please clarify."

yes, late in the game. don't really know if it was done to mock us, but they did it.

Of course it was done to mock us - when else have they done it, ever, except tonight? Same thing with West Virginia in 2008 NCAA tournament, and they got what was coming to them when Jordan Davidson rained a 3 on their sorry butts to turn an 18 point final four blowout into a 21 point final four blowout in 2010. Miami will get paid back too... it just won't take 2 years this time. More like 6 weeks.

[cspan37421]

Two things I wanted to comment on:

First, despite the post about luck, I really liked the comment about "whatever we've been doing for the last 6 days was completely wrong" - i.e., our preparation was wrongheaded. Seems obvious unless it's all just luck. And certainly some of it is, but luck should even out over time, defenses should adjust, intensity should be there. Which leads me to the intensity thing.

I really dislike the commonly-cited excuse that we can't hope to match the intensity of other teams, because it's such a big deal for them to play us, but (it's implied), not the reverse. That everyone gives us their best shot. I believe: at this level of basketball, and at this program, if you can't give your all twice a week for 40 minutes, no matter who you're playing, you don't belong here. So if there's any legitimacy to that excuse, then there's a more serious problem with Duke BB than Mason's FT shooting or Seth's outside shooting. I sure hope there's nothing to the notion that our kids just aren't up for playing some teams. JMO.

[dukelifer]

Again, "intensity"? What does that even mean. During their big run, we had a bunch of open shots that we just missed. If they go in, are we suddenly having "intensity?" If Scott and Kadji - two bad 3 point shooters for their careers believe it or not - don't hit contested 3s to start their big run, would Miami have less intensity?

This is not about heart. It's insulting to the players to keep saying that.

I know it sucks to think that sometimes losses are out of our control and can't be solved by simple practice. But it's the truth.

I agree- Duke played hard but missed shots and Miami was hot. It happens. Usually Duke figures out a way to stay close or make a run- but that was not to be. The big test will be how they play Miami at home. I expect a much different result- even if Kelly is not playing. It is difficult to watch this Duke team because they really have not had enough time to figure it out- and they really lack confidence. They always have had a guy who could take over and help calm the team so a loss would not be a blow out. Mason is not that kind of player. Curry could be but you never know what is going on with his leg. Then again- he seems to struggle against certain teams. Not sure what it will take to get better- but they will in time. Just not sure Duke is now good enough to make a post season run in a year which the tourney is pretty wide open. We will have to be patient and see how it plays out.

[wavedukefan70s]

I am curious to see how the team responds from the beating.it could be a turning point.hopefully for the good.a wake up call if you will.i doubt we will shoot as poorly again this season.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Confidence is a very fragile emotion, even for champions.

[sporthenry]

I'm beginning to think that this is a psychologically fragile team. Normally, you'd think a team with as many upperclassmen as we've got wouldn't be so, but I'm wondering...

Josh and Tyler both put out a lot of effort and don't lie down for anybody, but they're also limited in their ability to lead on the floor. Neither can carry the team on offense, and with Ryan out, we need players that can contribute more offensively. They both play hard and play pretty good defense - Tyler especially - but both are limited athletically.

Quinn has shown flashes of being a confident, almost arrogant floor leader, but he has few performances on which to base that attitude. Last year was essentially lost for him, and it took him a few game to hit his stride this year. He's been brilliant at times, but also had some real inconsistency in his own offense. After tonight, he's only made 3 of his last 16 3-pointers and 10 of his last 37 total FGAs.

And Alex, Amile, Rasheed, and Marshall are all freshman.

So, who's the guy who is going to grab the rest by the jersey and say "We're not going down without a fight - not on my watch. Gimme the darned ball!"?

This sort of goes back to what happened last year with the seeming lack of a leader. Duke has always had those leaders and this team doesn't seem to have that guy who will grab your shirt. Your post is spot on explaining everyone's role. Josh tried to yell and get people going but as you mention, he can only do so much. QC has yet to shown that ability to lead when things go bad and seemed to drop his head a bit tonight.

And I think Kelly is the closest thing to this type of leader who fires everyone up, grabs everyone during a FT huddle, etc.

[PumpkinFunk]

With the exception of Alex's "emergence," everything that could go wrong for us did go wrong tonight. Our guards couldn't shoot, Mason looked terrible, we played bad defense, and Miami made a lot of shots in the first half that you couldn't reasonably expect them to make. We fought back a little bit, but the game was so far out of hand by halftime that it's hard to consider too much about the second half. Ryan Kelly wouldn't have saved us tonight... I mean, LeBron James wouldn't have saved us tonight.

We got run out of the building in a way that I can't remember. So many things went wrong tonight, but remember that Miami is a good team who played out of their minds tonight and went up against a Duke team that just didn't really show up. This was a weird game in a whole lot of ways. It remains to be seen if it was a fluke performance or a trend, but I'm going to go with a fluke given everything that happened.

With that being said: Here's to never forgetting tonight.

[weezie]

Of course it was done to mock us ..... Miami will get paid back too...

It always does work out that way. Ol'Canes will be laughing out the other side of their faces soon enough.

[roywhite]

Can't get over Cook, Curry, and Thornton shooting 1 for 29.

It's a freaky stat, but brings to mind comments about our backcourt being small and not matching up physically with bigger, stronger guards.

[dukelifer]

With the exception of Alex's "emergence," everything that could go wrong for us did go wrong tonight. Our guards couldn't shoot, Mason looked terrible, we played bad defense, and Miami made a lot of shots in the first half that you couldn't reasonably expect them to make. We fought back a little bit, but the game was so far out of hand by halftime that it's hard to consider too much about the second half. Ryan Kelly wouldn't have saved us tonight... I mean, LeBron James wouldn't have saved us tonight.

We got run out of the building in a way that I can't remember. So many things went wrong tonight, but remember that Miami is a good team who played out of their minds tonight and went up against a Duke team that just didn't really show up. This was a weird game in a whole lot of ways. It remains to be seen if it was a fluke performance or a trend, but I'm going to go with a fluke given everything that happened.

With that being said: Here's to never forgetting tonight.

Last year UNC got killed by Florida State by over 30 in a similar type game- the same UNC team that won the ACC regular season. It happens.

[weezie]

Can't get over Cook, Curry, and Thornton shooting 1 for 29.

It's a freaky stat, but brings to mind comments about our backcourt being small and not matching up physically with bigger, stronger guards.

Not to mention the massive beef in the Miami front court. Mason was mauled, he looked completely wrung out.

[DBFAN]

I am not trying to be mean when I say this because I have cheered so hard for Mason his entire career, because I always thought he and Miles got a raw deal not having a true PG getting them the ball, But I can't remember a big man that got his shot blocked as much as him. Especially no one who can jump outta the roof like that. Is it a footwork thing, does he bring it out too far. I have also noticed the last several games that he is not challenging shooters in the first half. Not that it would have made a difference but I counted at least three times in the first half where a player came down the lane right at him and he just stepped aside and didn't challenge. At the end if a game with 4 fouls and its close I understand that, but u am very confused why he continually does that. He also looked very lost all night, one time a rebound went up in the air and he was looking around trying to figure out where it went and while he was doing that Miami grabbed the ball and threw it to a guy behind him for a dunk. I felt bad for him

[devildeac]

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

Check here:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-beer

Probably several hundred of them described over the last few years.

3136

[mapei]

Like everyone else, I will still love Duke basketball tomorrow. I won't be as confident, probably, until we have a big win again. I'm not betting on it happening this weekend, but if it does it will certainly improve my mood.

A lot of people are saying it is because we lost Ryan. Yikes, he's worth 35 points per game? And, if so, what does that say about our program and the rest of our guys? In any event, chances are we're not getting him back or not getting him at full strength, possibly for the duration of his career. So, if he's the reason, it's not a very comforting one.

Others are saying it was a lack of intensity. I tend to think perceived intensity is an unreliable observation - we look intense when we make some of those dunks and steals we didn't get tonight and then go to a huddle all pumped up. And we don't look intense when we try hard but the other team is kicking our butts. I will say that, if there was intensity, it sure was hard to tell. I remember one drive by a Miami guy from half-court to the basket, through what should have been the heart of the Duke defense, with no one standing in the way. We might as well have given him an honor guard.

If you're K, is there anything you can do? We know he's plenty intense, but will that have an effect?

Meanwhile, doesn't Miami always have bruiser big guys who push us around at will? Sometimes we have the firepower to overcome, but I felt like I had seen parts of this before, just not with this bad a result. Or am I confusing Miami with someone else? I am on Dilaudid at the moment. ;)

[Greg_Newton]

Can't get over Cook, Curry, and Thornton shooting 1 for 29.

It's a freaky stat, but brings to mind comments about our backcourt being small and not matching up physically with bigger, stronger guards.

Agreed on both counts. I'm usually one to rant about our physicality deficient wings, but I'm not sure that was the main issue today - it's not like weakside rebounds and help defense is what killed us. We were awful all around, but I think we got into our own heads after the first few inexplicable misses. You could kind of see the resigned, "It must just not be our night" attitude take over, and when that happens against a talented, hungry team playing at home, all bets are off. I really think that was a complete freak game that really has little to do with how "good" we are or will be.

I do think that smaller, finesse guards who rely on shooting touch to be effective can struggle in super-intense games like this - it's a lot easier for a slasher to use that panic-adrenaline to drive extra strong to the rim than it is for a 6'2" jump shooter to use it to shoot extra well or something. But I don't think you can explain tonight with any sort of physical basketball analysis.

[devildeac]

Forget the microbrew. This is what Ambien is for.

Fentanyl might be a better choice.

[mr. synellinden]

Can't get over Cook, Curry, and Thornton shooting 1 for 29.

It's a freaky stat, but brings to mind comments about our backcourt being small and not matching up physically with bigger, stronger guards.

Many of those shots were very open and had nothing to do with the size of the defender. That being said, Durand Scott is a phenomenal defensive player and he absolutely owned Curry tonight.

[-bdbd]

Hey, what's going on? Did I miss something? Did we have a game tonight?

I guess, maybe, someoine should have told Thornton, Curry, and Cook too.



Just WOW. That was really ugly. This has NOT been a good week to be a Duke basketball fan, Men or Women's...
I am thinking back trying to remember any worse performances than that in the last 25 years. Maybe not. Where was their 'fight' tonight?????

Just NOTHING went our way. We looked terrible on defense, repeatedly were out-efforted (never seen it so thorough as that), couldn't throw the ball in the ocean on offense (and a BUNCH simply rimmed out too), out-rebounded, and it seemed like even the refs jumped on the Hurricane bandwagon before halftime as well. No, I'm not blaming the refs for this atrocious no-show by Duke, but there WERE some bizarro calls - like once it got out of hand they just mailed it in to (like Duke did). Like in the second half when MP2 goes for a hook shot and gets just knocked to the floor, NO CALL, and he throws it toward the basket, and then just sitting there looks up at the ref as if to say "What game are YOU watching?")

Don't think I'd like to be Maryland on Saturday though....

Hey Crazies, remember the following when Miami comes to visit Duke in a few weeks, on Sat., Mar. 2nd (I just highlighted it on my calendar):
- The mocking floor slap.
- The starters, most of them, still being in until about 1 minute remained (1:27) and Mia up by 30+.
- Miami taking early-in-the-shot-clock 3 pointers with under 3 minutes left, up by 30.
- Multiple ally-oops down the stretch.
:mad:
I doubt that the palyers will forget.

[gofurman]

Agreed on both counts. I'm usually one to rant about our physicality deficient wings, but I'm not sure that was the main issue today - it's not like weakside rebounds and help defense is what killed us. We were awful all around, but I think we got into our own heads after the first few inexplicable misses. You could kind of see the resigned, "It must just not be our night" attitude take over, and when that happens against a talented, hungry team playing at home, all bets are off. I really think that was a complete freak game that really has little to do with how "good" we are or will be.

I do think that smaller, finesse guards who rely on shooting touch to be effective can struggle in super-intense games like this - it's a lot easier for a slasher to use that panic-adrenaline to drive extra strong to the rim than it is for a 6'2" jump shooter to use it to shoot extra well or something. But I don't think you can explain tonight with any sort of physical basketball analysis.

Thats why it needs to be Cook, Curry and Suliamon in our backcourt - 2 of whom can guard with decent lateral quickness or length . Thornton needs to be a backup. Cook Thornton and Curry is not a scary backcourt. Better than last year bc of Cooks good play but a good Suliamon makes all the difference with his length for defense.

[Furniture]

I think Quin
lost his head a bit tonight. He really let it get to him and that's ok. He's still learning. I have one question or wrong observation.
Was Thornton playing point for long periods even when quin was in? If so why?
Thoughts?

[pamtar]

Seeing as how duke didn't lose by 30+, I think he simply meant 30+ games. No need to overreact.

Sorry, I was under the impression we did. I turned the game off with 2 min to go, we were down by 30ish then. Sorry Wheat, I should have checked the score.

In my defense, Ive had a serious wedgie johnson for the last half hour that I'm too lazy/drunk to deal with.

[gofurman]

Many of those shots were very open and had nothing to do with the size of the defender. That being said, Durand Scott is a phenomenal defensive player and he absolutely owned Curry tonight.

THIS - Scott did own Curry. Curry's lack of quickness and height were exposed. Luckily there arent too many defenders like that out there. And to Curry's credit he has learned as a Senior to pump fake and play a good game under the rim at times (not just a spot up shooter anymore). Only a few defenders can do what Scott did - but credit Miami: Curry couldnt find an opening on the floor and without the 3 to open up space we just dont have a great offense

Where is the guy who posted we had an advantage at every positions except Kadji v Jefferson. LOL - get real man, I knew this one scared me. And When I said scared I meant scared. I wouldnt have thought this but I was shocked when I saw Duke was favored in this game.

ANd Mason - please take it stronger to the rim; dont always fade away with the 6 foot hook shot and make it easy on the defender. Remember when K was so happy last game he hugged Mason? It was when he went hard to the rim.

Not to pile on but I read a post here yesterday that said we couldnt lose to UNC this year and would easily sweep them. I thought at the time I hate to see those kind of posts. Bad karma and all that. Still feel confident about that? Not me. I dont feel real confident about anything as I watch UNC get better and beat on GT right now.

OTOH, these games happen and I hope the team learns something , not the least of which is to come out with more intensity!!!

[Cameron]

Fentanyl might be a better choice.

Duly noted. However, at this point, I think I might just take a golf club to the head and a persistent vegetative state. Amply quicker.

[Newton_14]

A lot of people are saying it is because we lost Ryan. Yikes, he's worth 35 points per game? ;)

Well, yeah, he sort of is. It's not just losing the points Ryan scores himself. Ryan being on the floor has a huge positive impact on Mason, Rasheed, and Quinn. He is the guy that pulls the 2nd big out of the lane. That gives Mason space to work, and it gives Rasheed and Quinn open lanes to drive. It impacts Seth to a lesser degree, but it still impacts him. Go back and watch any of the games with Ryan, and the shots those guys mentioned were getting are vastly different than the shots they are getting now. The timing is different, the spots on the floor where they are taking the shots are different, and the driving lanes that were open are now clogged. And I said all of this prior to tonight's bashing.

I am not suggesting we win with Ryan tonight, because tonight was one of those nights where one College team is playing as well as they can possibly play, and the other team is playing as poorly as they can play. It happens. I do think it would have been a much different game had Ryan played, but even with Ryan, had Miami shot the ball as well as they shot it, and obtained the same level of confidence, which influenced their already good defense, we likely lose anyway. Just not by 29 points.

This is a very different team without Ryan, and a younger team. Given the unknown of when or if Kelly comes back, K is caught between a rock and hard place trying to determine whether or not to make drastic changes on the assumption we don't get Ryan back, or small tweaks to try to help us get by until Ryan returns. The end result is the guys look very confused and unsure of themselves on the offensive end of the floor. Miami sensed that in a big way tonight, and they had the talent and a roaring crowd inspiring them, such that they took full advantage of it. Once our guys started missing shot after shot, it got in their heads, and impacted their defense. Which again, Miami seized the moment on. Cause and Effect.

I do agree with Loran that Miami is not nearly as good as they played tonight, and Duke is not nearly as bad as they played tonight. Games like this happen every year in College Hoops. Just look at UNC losing by 33 last year at FSU with a team that would have played Kentucky for the National Title had they not lost Henson and Marshall to injuries in the post season.

Tonight sucked. A game to put behind you immediately and focus on the next opponent, but also a game to never forget, to insure it never happens again.

Whether Ryan makes it back or not, this Duke team will still win a lot of games the rest of the way and Quinn, Rasheed, Amile, and Alex, will all grow and get better. The ceiling however, is much higher, if Ryan makes it back with several regular season games remaining.


And no offense to my buddy FerryFor50, but I thought Miami slapping the floor in unison, was a boorish, punkish, amatuerish stunt aimed at mocking the program, and it pissed me off and I hope like heck it pissed off our team. If I were K, that clip would play on the scoreboard screen in Cameron over and over again for the entire practice tomorrow, and on the TV's in the locker room. I was taught to lose and win with class and never mock an opponent when I was on the winning side of a lopsided score.

[Saratoga2]

The reality of this beat down is that the team and players have several significant flaws, and they are not easy to resolve. Some of the flaws include:
1. Mason's offense is limited to a few feet from the basket with mainly dunks, put backs and very short hook shots. Teams realize he has no mid range offense and can play defense to the best part of his game. His touch around the basket is not all that good and his free throw shooting is based on a very flat shot that has very little margin for error. If he hasn't learned more post moves, mid range shooting or free throw technique by now, he isn't likely to this season. When defended by physical guys his size, we can't expect him to carry much of the scoring load.

2. Curry is our other big scoring threat. He has had many wonderful games and has remarkable scoring capability. He has been hurt this year and that may or may not account for games where his scoring essentially disappears. Hard to understand what is going on.

3. Like last year, our guards are pretty small and with the exception of Rasheed are not particularly quick or athletic. Quinn has usually contributed with ball handling and distribution and his defense has improved. Against a top notch guard who is really quick, anyone would have problems defensively. Quinn has been up and down with his shooting but he is by far our best PG.

5. With the absence of Ryan, we loose leadership on the floor. The development plan for players was based on our starting five with a heavy reliance on Tyler and Josh as mainly defensive support players. Neither is a dangerous scorer and neither are of a size or quickness to deal with those they guard. Good support players, but the main offense has to come through others. There appeared to be very little game planning for developing Amile, Alex and Marshall, until Ryan went down. Now these young guys need to quickly gain experience. Amile seems most ready to help, but you also have a very athletic Alex who looks like he might be able to score more effectively than some of our guard options, due to his size and athleticism. His defense has held him back, but not his lack of effort. We just don't know about Marshall. He will be our starting center next year so why isn't it smart to get him some PT now?

What can be done to improve this team assuming Ryan is out for a long time?

1. When are guards aren't cutting it, substitute in Alex at wing.
2. Use Amile as our starting PF with Josh as a backup.
3. Use Marshall to spell Mason. Don't try to force the offense through Mason, it isn't working that well against aggressive physical teams.

I am trying to be realistic and not critical in my assessment. This team still has a lot of fine pieces, the coaches just need to fit the pieces together in the most effective way.

[bedeviled]

I may post some thoughts later. What is most important to me in the moment, though, is to thank the moderators for maintaining DBR open for discussion tonight. I appreciate it. Thanks for your work.

[-bdbd]

That game reminds me of that time when I was a child playing in the back yard, and a stink bug flew into my mouth.

LOL!!!!!!
That was great Jacone.

Kinda looks to me like several of the guys swallowed stink bugs tonight!!!


.

.

.;)

[superdave]

Positives:

- they didn't give up; they just played badly
- Murphy showed some promise
- uh... Miami might get dinged by the acc for frank haith's transgressions?

Negatives:

- everything. Throw this game out and call it a mulligan. Next play.

Played badly sounds about right. Sometimes there's a lid on the hoop, sometimes you move slowly, sometimes you dont have enough fight. We checked all three boxes tonight.

The sky is not falling. We just need a new scheme post-Kelly until we got back to the Kelly lineup. I'm thinking press and trap more, and run on offense.

[dukelifer]

Like everyone else, I will still love Duke basketball tomorrow. I won't be as confident, probably, until we have a big win again. I'm not betting on it happening this weekend, but if it does it will certainly improve my mood.

A lot of people are saying it is because we lost Ryan. Yikes, he's worth 35 points per game? And, if so, what does that say about our program and the rest of our guys? In any event, chances are we're not getting him back or not getting him at full strength, possibly for the duration of his career. So, if he's the reason, it's not a very comforting one.



Duke will lose most every night when Curry has no points when Kelly is out of the lineup. Not enough fire power on the bench to make up for that. If Curry does not score in any game going forward- expect similar results to what you saw tonight. If he gets his 15 to 20- Duke will be competitive.

[superdave]

The Miami heat have lost games this year (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/mia/miami-heat) by 20, 18, 20 and 19. And their home record is one game worse than our overall record. Yet they are the top bet (http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/) to win the NBA title too. It's one game, not a season.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Did not bother to watch most of the second half. Glad because i may have broken something. Obviously not Duke's night and proves this year is wide open. Am wondering if Seth was feeling his injury tonight more than others as opposed to him being "owned". In any event, not good. I could not figure out for whom to vote as player of the game but settled on jefferson because of his energy and rebounding. Next play!

[pamtar]

The Miami heat have lost games this year (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/mia/miami-heat) by 20, 18, 20 and 19. And their home record is one game worse than our overall record. Yet they are the top bet (http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/) to win the NBA title too. It's one game, not a season.

They have Shane. ;)

[DukeWarhead]

When people used to ask me why I was a Duke fan(atic), I used to reply:
1. Because they play harder than any other team. They never take a game off or give up. They give it 100%, and that is why they never get blown-out.
2. They have the best coach in the game.
3. They have great kids with great attitudes- they're easy to like.

#2 and #3 are still as accurate as ever, but I don't feel like I can use #1 anymore. Duke has been blown-out a number of times these past few seasons, and I do think a bit of it has come from a lack of confidence, urgency, or "fight" when things start to go bad in a game. No - I don't think any of these Duke losses came from "giving up" or taking a game off, but something has been missing to keep it close (within 20 pts.)

Maybe a stat person can tell me how many Duke losses between 1990-2009 were by more than 15 points, and how many since? (Is it three or four now? St. Johns, Georgetown, Clemson, Miami? Am I missing one.)

Just can't use the "Duke doesn't ever get blown-out" reason anymore, which was my favorite.

Life goes on.

[throatybeard]

The Miami heat have lost games this year (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/name/mia/miami-heat) by 20, 18, 20 and 19. And their home record is one game worse than our overall record. Yet they are the top bet (http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/) to win the NBA title too. It's one game, not a season.

I'm not sure the NBA is really analogous. The NBA regular season is rife with teams near a two-or-three possession barrier either

a) making a couple shots and making it a close game

or

b) not doing that and saying, man, screw it, we'll get the Kings next week.

They play this absurd 82-game RS that somehow, in the context of the sport, makes the 162-game MLB season seem short. And folks like LeBron have an incentive to mail it in in a given game.

Actually, that's one of the amazing differences to me between the NBA and MLB (and obviously the NFL). I never hear screeching and ululation when an NBA team misses the 8 seed by a game. The Red Sox do it, and it's a national story. The NBA seems to be characterized by people who try when they try and don't when they don't. So I'm not sure the Heat losing by 20 is the same thing as Duke losing by the third largest margin by a #1 college team ever. When Wade is like, man, my X hurts, and we're down 16, and we've got 82 games to make it up, maybe he's more likely than Sulaimon to mail it in.

[Scorp4me]

we peaked in nov???

is there enough time to peak again?


more minutes for murphy!

fewer for thornton.

That must be it, it's all Thornton's fault. God I get sick of the treatment this kid gets from Duke fans. Its pathetic and sad. I'm just glad Coach K sees the positives in him.

[dukeofcalabash]

The reality of this beat down is that the team and players have several significant flaws, and they are not easy to resolve. Some of the flaws include:
1. Mason's offense is limited to a few feet from the basket with mainly dunks, put backs and very short hook shots. Teams realize he has no mid range offense and can play defense to the best part of his game. His touch around the basket is not all that good and his free throw shooting is based on a very flat shot that has very little margin for error. If he hasn't learned more post moves, mid range shooting or free throw technique by now, he isn't likely to this season. When defended by physical guys his size, we can't expect him to carry much of the scoring load.

2. Curry is our other big scoring threat. He has had many wonderful games and has remarkable scoring capability. He has been hurt this year and that may or may not account for games where his scoring essentially disappears. Hard to understand what is going on.

3. Like last year, our guards are pretty small and with the exception of Rasheed are not particularly quick or athletic. Quinn has usually contributed with ball handling and distribution and his defense has improved. Against a top notch guard who is really quick, anyone would have problems defensively. Quinn has been up and down with his shooting but he is by far our best PG.

5. With the absence of Ryan, we loose leadership on the floor. The development plan for players was based on our starting five with a heavy reliance on Tyler and Josh as mainly defensive support players. Neither is a dangerous scorer and neither are of a size or quickness to deal with those they guard. Good support players, but the main offense has to come through others. There appeared to be very little game planning for developing Amile, Alex and Marshall, until Ryan went down. Now these young guys need to quickly gain experience. Amile seems most ready to help, but you also have a very athletic Alex who looks like he might be able to score more effectively than some of our guard options, due to his size and athleticism. His defense has held him back, but not his lack of effort. We just don't know about Marshall. He will be our starting center next year so why isn't it smart to get him some PT now?

What can be done to improve this team assuming Ryan is out for a long time?

1. When are guards aren't cutting it, substitute in Alex at wing.
2. Use Amile as our starting PF with Josh as a backup.
3. Use Marshall to spell Mason. Don't try to force the offense through Mason, it isn't working that well against aggressive physical teams.

I am trying to be realistic and not critical in my assessment. This team still has a lot of fine pieces, the coaches just need to fit the pieces together in the most effective way.

Just a comment or two:
1. Mason did get outplayed, but still scored 15 and add about 10 rebounds!
2. Curry is really playing no differently than last year when he had his captain's position taken from him (read into it what you will).
3. As long as Curry is here, the guards will be smaller and slower. Go measure him if you don't believe it.
5. Leadership was suppossed to come from Kelly, Mason, and Curry. Do you see it?

Now, where's 4?

Let's all hope Coach K has a plan that will turn this nightmare into a sweet dream by season's end!

[noworries]

Can't think of much to say about the game. Anyone had a tasty microbrew lately they'd like to brag on?

natty greene's is my go to, any of their offerings(other than the guilford) are fantastic...
also had a firestone union jack ipa the other, wow that was fantastic...
that game sucked...almost like miami was playing against 5 of teo's girlfriends

[trinity79]

Maybe coach K should take a lesson from Ol' Roy and have the baskets removed for the next practice (or two). We wouldn't be using them anyway if we shot like we did tonight.:o

[wallyman]

It happens. You can't overcome atrocious shooting like we had tonight. We've only lost two games -- both ones that figured to be among our toughest. If Kelly comes back healthy, we can certainly be a Final Four Team. But by now the evidence from the end of last year and the post-Kelly portion of this one seems pretty consistent. Lehigh wasn't a fluke. This, other than the margin wasn't a fluke. Without Kelly we're not very good. And with him, there's not much margin for error. Thornton and Hairston play hard but they are borderline ACC talents. Marshall may be too. He's certainly not a contributor yet. Murphy and Jefferson show promise but aren't there yet. Cook is hot and cold but not much of a shooter. Seth is doing it with mirrors on a bad leg. Mason and Sulaimon have regressed since December. Get well soon, Ryan.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I don't wish for people to get hurt...but after the floor slap I wouldn't have been sad

It wasn't very smart on Miami's part to mock Duke there.

[oldnavy]

Glad tonight was my night to be teaching so I missed the game. I have a feeling K and staff will use this as a teaching moment. They will either learn from it and improve or not... Time will tell, but my guess is this was the nadir of the season. Let us all hope anyway!

[devil84]

I just deleted over 30 posts of posters taking potshots at each other.

Look, we're all disappointed at the loss, but we don't have to take it out on each other.

If you think someone is a troll, DON'T FEED THE TROLL. Don't attack other posters. Keep to the topic of the thread, which is the loss, not whether a poster is a troll.

[cbnaylor]

I agree that the floor slapping was a slap in the face and was done with poor taste. Clearly they were mocking because the whole team did it. This is why I can't respect certain teams. You let your play do the talking and not crap like this. I also wasn't pleased with the starters not being pull to the very last min. I'm thankful everyday that WE Duke have a coach and staff/ institution that doesn't go to the lack of respect for the other opponent.

[#1Duke]

It wasn't very smart on Miami's part to mock Duke there.

I don't see what the fuss is about... really. It isn't a proprietary move is it??
I mean, there are other things said and done by both players and fans that are far worse than floor slapping.

[#1Duke]

I agree that the floor slapping was a slap in the face and was done with poor taste. Clearly they were mocking because the whole team did it. This is why I can't respect certain teams. You let your play do the talking and not crap like this. I also wasn't pleased with the starters not being pull to the very last min. I'm thankful everyday that WE Duke have a coach and staff/ institution that doesn't go to the lack of respect for the other opponent.

I have personally heard comments directed at opposing teams players while attending a Duke game that I would consider far worse than floor slapping.
Much ado about nothing me thinks.

[throatybeard]

About the floor slap, well, I don't know. You lose that badly, maybe you deserve to get your "trademark" move served back to you. Or at least I would not object to it. Have a problem? Win the game. By less than negative 27. I don't think we have much of a grievance on the floor slap.

[wallyman]

About the floor slap, well, I don't know. You lose that badly, maybe you deserve to get your "trademark" move served back to you. Or at least I would not object to it. Have a problem? Win the game. By less than negative 27. I don't think we have much of a grievance on the floor slap.


The insult wasn't the insult. The insult was the game.

[throatybeard]

The insult wasn't the insult. The insult was the game.

True, true. The game is the game.

[sporthenry]

About the floor slap, well, I don't know. You lose that badly, maybe you deserve to get your "trademark" move served back to you. Or at least I would not object to it. Have a problem? Win the game. By less than negative 27. I don't think we have much of a grievance on the floor slap.

I'm not so much upset or mad at Miami. I'm probably more angry at the Duke players but I do agree with this line of thinking with these types of things. What was the one quote about running the score up, "It is not my job to stop my offense, that is yours." I would just hope this pisses our players off like it pissed many of us off, be it disrespectful or not. You don't want anyone to do this to you ever. You want to give them no reason to do it and you want to make them wish they never did it in the first place just because you know someone will slap the floor in the rematch assuming Duke is winning and the crowd will go nuts.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I don't see what the fuss is about... really. It isn't a proprietary move is it??
I mean, there are other things said and done by both players and fans that are far worse than floor slapping.

No fuss really, but they should have just "let sleeping dogs lie". No need to mock a good team when they are down, especially when you are likely to see them two more times this season.

It wasn't a smart thing to do by a veteran team.

That said, it showed how confident that Miami team is right now. They are pretty darn good.

[gep]

Of course it was done to mock us - when else have they done it, ever, except tonight? Same thing with West Virginia in 2008 NCAA tournament, and they got what was coming to them when Jordan Davidson rained a 3 on their sorry butts to turn an 18 point final four blowout into a 21 point final four blowout in 2010. Miami will get paid back too... it just won't take 2 years this time. More like 6 weeks.

Well... as I've gleaned from this thread, I don't think anyone believes the Duke played their brand of defense. So yes, I think Duke deserved to be "mocked" in this particular game. Now, take that "mock" and do something about it. That's what Duke does (or should do).

One other comment... as one poster mentioned, Coach K has 2 choices... "tweak" the team until Ryan returns, or "remake" the team assuming Ryan is not coming back. Maybe, Coach K has been in the "tweak" mode... and tough teams have been taking advantage. When Coach K "remade" the 2001 team when Carlos went down, I'm not sure he thought Carlos would be back, so he had to do something drastic. When Kyrie went down, Coach K again "remade" the team, putting Nolan in the driver's seat. But, alas, 2 different outcomes. Carlos comes back, Duke wins the NC (maybe because Carlos wasn't out for very long). Kyrie comes back, after the team has been "remade", and to me, the team with Kyrie back in the starting lineup moved Nolan (and the team) to an unfamiliar place... :confused:

edit: as I wrote the post, I see that others have the same sentiment on the floor slap...

[mkirsh]

Tonight we just got debacled (copyright Emmitt Smith).

We seem to be good for at least one stinker per year the last few years
2011-12 Ohio State 85-63
2010-11 St Johns 93-78; Arizona 93-77
2009-10 Georgetown 89-77 (final score not indicative of how bad we got beaten)
2008-09 Clemson 74-47

All of these games felt the same - we looked extremely slow and lethargic, couldn't guard the ball, and basically gave up wide open threes and layups. Tonight was the same - couldn't stop the ball in transition, couldn't stay in front of Miami's guards, and got killed on ball screens (didn't help that Reggie Johnson was allowed to move and drag defenders like a pulling lineman, but whatever). Add to that an untimely cold shooting night and good Miami D and you have a blowout.

What these games also had in common was that the sun came up the next day, and we were able to play good ball the rest of the way for the most part. I don't know if tonight exposed a fatal flaw and a blueprint for how to beat Duke, or if was just an off night for a tired team, but there is a lot of season left and hopefully the team can find ways to improve. Biggest issue for me is ball containment - not sure if it's just effort or potentially a scheme change (2009 and 2010 teams mixed in some 1-3-1 with Lance at the top - Amile would be awesome in this role). I definitely don't have the answers but hope the coaching staff does.

[Troublemaker]

It's tough for me to get worked up about this outcome. On a micro level (single game), stuff like this happens. It's rare, but it happens. You start out missing shots that you usually make. Those were good shots we took at the beginning of the game; the announcing team pointed that out, too. But we missed them, especially the guards, at a laughable rate; we're not going to have a colder shooting game this season (at least I hope not!). Then, things snowball because the opponent is an experienced, talented top-10 team trying to make history by beating #1, playing in front of an amped-up crowd, knowing that it's on national TV. The talented opponent seizes upon the opportunity. Our team's laughably poor shotmaking starts to affect other aspects of our game. The contest becomes a blowout. It happens.

On a macro level (the season), who cares? If, in three weeks or so (mid-Feb), Ryan Kelly suits up and plays, this game doesn't matter. And if he doesn't, this game still doesn't matter.

Our season, from an "accomplishing big things" standpoint, has boiled down to whether Kelly can return by mid-Feb. And that was true and I felt that way even before this blowout loss. If we had lost by 10 instead of 30, it would still be true. He's irreplaceable and we need him back. That's all.

[Troublemaker]

The floor slap was an insult, but I don't mind insults in this context. This was a sporting event, not a black tie charity event. In sports, you expect conference rivals to talk a little trash, to throw a few insults at you. No harm, no foul. Hopefully we have an opportunity to talk a little trash back at them in Cameron later on this season. Hopefully following a revenge thumping.

[jv001]

Tonight we just got debacled (copyright Emmitt Smith).

We seem to be good for at least one stinker per year the last few years
2011-12 Ohio State 85-63
2010-11 St Johns 93-78; Arizona 93-77
2009-10 Georgetown 89-77 (final score not indicative of how bad we got beaten)
2008-09 Clemson 74-47

All of these games felt the same - we looked extremely slow and lethargic, couldn't guard the ball, and basically gave up wide open threes and layups. Tonight was the same - couldn't stop the ball in transition, couldn't stay in front of Miami's guards, and got killed on ball screens (didn't help that Reggie Johnson was allowed to move and drag defenders like a pulling lineman, but whatever). Add to that an untimely cold shooting night and good Miami D and you have a blowout.

What these games also had in common was that the sun came up the next day, and we were able to play good ball the rest of the way for the most part. I don't know if tonight exposed a fatal flaw and a blueprint for how to beat Duke, or if was just an off night for a tired team, but there is a lot of season left and hopefully the team can find ways to improve. Biggest issue for me is ball containment - not sure if it's just effort or potentially a scheme change (2009 and 2010 teams mixed in some 1-3-1 with Lance at the top - Amile would be awesome in this role). I definitely don't have the answers but hope the coaching staff does.

Agree our defense was really bad, slow and did I say slow. But once again this is where we miss Ryan. Team defense suffers as Ryan is one of our better defenders. Shot blocking, taking charges and knowing Coach Ks man to man defense is missing with Ryan on crutches. One thing that I really don't like is Quinns negative reactions to bad plays on his part. Sort of looks like Bobby Hurley's freshman year. Maybe a film session would help in that regard. GoDuke!

[Chicago 1995]

It's tough for me to get worked up about this outcome. On a micro level (single game), stuff like this happens. It's rare, but it happens. You start out missing shots that you usually make. Those were good shots we took at the beginning of the game; the announcing team pointed that out, too. But we missed them, especially the guards, at a laughable rate; we're not going to have a colder shooting game this season (at least I hope not!). Then, things snowball because the opponent is an experienced, talented top-10 team trying to make history by beating #1, playing in front of an amped-up crowd, knowing that it's on national TV. The talented opponent seizes upon the opportunity. Our team's laughably poor shotmaking starts to affect other aspects of our game. The contest becomes a blowout. It happens.

On a macro level (the season), who cares? If, in three weeks or so (mid-Feb), Ryan Kelly suits up and plays, this game doesn't matter. And if he doesn't, this game still doesn't matter.

Our season, from an "accomplishing big things" standpoint, has boiled down to whether Kelly can return by mid-Feb. And that was true and I felt that way even before this blowout loss. If we had lost by 10 instead of 30, it would still be true. He's irreplaceable and we need him back. That's all.

If Ryan Kelly suits up in three weeks and we roll out another game like this, this game will matter and Ryan's return will not. Maybe Ryan makes this an 18 whipping as opposed to a 27 point one, but to think all will be well when Ryan comes back is being too simplistic. We haven't looked like the same team since Temple, really, and tonight was a quantum leap in a awful direction. Ryan doesn't turn this team into world beaters. I don't think Lebron James would.

[g-money]

ANd Mason - please take it stronger to the rim; dont always fade away with the 6 foot hook shot and make it easy on the defender. Remember when K was so happy last game he hugged Mason? It was when he went hard to the rim.

To amplify this point a bit, I think the biggest gut check after tonight's disaster goes to Mason. Earlier in the year he looked like a dominant big man. Tonight he looked completely lost, and perhaps of greater concern, seemed to stop hustling when things didn't go his way. When a team's best player & senior leader stops giving a full effort in the face of adversity, it can have the effect of waving a white flag at the rest of the team.

What I am frankly befuddled by is that early in the season, Mason did seem to have a new array of post moves that he'd developed over the summer. Now he's reverted back to weakly crossing into the lane and either firing off a fading hook or passing while airborne, neither of which is a high percentage play. Similarly, his much improved free throw shooting from early in the season seems to have regressed as well.

We'll probably never know the answer to this, but is it possible that Mason is just thinking about things too much? Or is he letting increasingly physical defenders bother him when he gets the ball down low? If it's the latter, maybe Coach James needs to start whacking him with a pugil stick in practice. He is clearly not suffering from a lack of touches, as getting the ball into the post was clearly a point of emphasis tonight despite Mason's inefficiency. To me this is a sign that Coach K realizes how important it is to get effective post play from him.

In any case, I'm firmly convinced that as Mason goes, so will go the rest of Duke's season. If he can channel his inner Laettner/Zoubek and get his toughness/aggressiveness back, we can be a #1 seed with a legitimate shot at the final four. If he continues to struggle, it'll be tough for us to get past the first weekend of the tournament - even with a healthy RK.

I'm looking forward to the rematch with these punks on 3/2. I hope Mason is too.

[Troublemaker]

If Ryan Kelly suits up in three weeks and we roll out another game like this, this game will matter and Ryan's return will not. Maybe Ryan makes this an 18 whipping as opposed to a 27 point one, but to think all will be well when Ryan comes back is being too simplistic. We haven't looked like the same team since Temple, really, and tonight was a quantum leap in a awful direction. Ryan doesn't turn this team into world beaters. I don't think Lebron James would.

I actually think it's simplistic to believe the way we played tonight is an accurate reflection of where this team stands. The game was an outlier. The two teams could play again right now and the odds would be overwhelmingly in favor of a much closer game. Outliers happen.

You are correct, though, that getting Ryan back wouldn't immediately put Duke at its peak. He has to regain conditioning, especially since it's a foot injury. The team has to re-integrate him and that takes time. That's why mid-Feb is about the latest it can be, in my estimation.

Will Duke eventually become (again) a top-3 team if Ryan returns mid-Feb and there are no other injuries? Yes, I believe so. We wouldn't be a perfect team but we weren't perfect even when we were 15-0. But we can become the "as good as anyone else in the country" team again when we have Ryan's spacing/shooting, leadership, ball-handling, and experience back on the court.

[Kedsy]

One thing I'm surprised that nobody has brought up (at least in the post-game thread so far) is the psychological effect of Reggie Johnson going all Willis Reed on us. It had to give Miami a lift and knock Duke back a bit. People in this thread have said our week-long preparation for this game was "wrong," but that preparation assumed Johnson wasn't going to play. So when he did play, the natural thing would be for us to feel tentative, because things were vastly different than what we prepared for, and for Miami to feel super-confident, because they had their big guy back. And both teams did, in fact, look that way.

Not only that, while I realize he didn't do much statistically, Johnson's presence had a tangible effect on the game. He put a huge body on Mason and diminished what was expected to be our biggest matchup advantage (Mason vs. Gamble). Plus, it gave them five extra fouls to give (although he "only" used four of them), that otherwise may have been distributed among Gamble and Kadji and kept one or both of them off the court for significant stretches.


But the large gap between the two teams was caused not by a lack of fight, lack of passion, or just not bringing it.....but by the stroke of luck.

In general, I agree with this, especially with regard to our shooting. Having said that, I believe we did get demoralized, and that demoralization showed up in our defense. Maybe it was because we had to take chances to try to make up a big deficit, but really it looked like we kind of gave up on the defensive end.


A lot of people are saying it is because we lost Ryan. Yikes, he's worth 35 points per game?

The scoring margin was in large part due to a snowball effect, and to say Ryan is worth "x" points is misleading. He clearly is the difference between our being an elite offensive team and just an adequate one. He also appears to be the difference between our being an elite defensive team and a good one that is susceptible to teams with mobile, scoring PFs.

A lot of things go into the snowball. If Ryan could have slowed Kadji down by a couple baskets in the first half, if his presence could have enabled Seth, Quinn, Rasheed, and Tyler to see more open looks so they make 5 of 11 threes instead of 2 of 11, if he could have scored a few more points than the 7 Amile and Josh combined for in their 17 first half minutes (about the number of minutes Ryan would have played), if he comes up with a weak side block, draws an extra foul on Kadji (giving him 3 first half fouls), and/or draws a charge on Durand Scott (giving Scott 2 first half fouls and causing him to sit for a bit instead of scoring 15 first half points) then maybe it's a five point game at halftime instead of 23. Then the 2nd half might have been completely different, we put more effort and take less risks in our 2nd half defense, we don't panic on offense, we're not forced to rely so much on one-on-one play, etc. It becomes a back and forth game between two good teams.

Look at it that way, and Ryan's presence could have changed the final score by 25 points, or for all we know, the 35 you mention. It doesn't mean he's "worth" 25 or 35 points, and it doesn't say anything about "our program and the rest of our guys", it just means the game would have been a lot different if Ryan was in the game, healthy, and playing well.


Thats why it needs to be Cook, Curry and Suliamon in our backcourt - 2 of whom can guard with decent lateral quickness or length . Thornton needs to be a backup.

Well, that's exactly what happened tonight, so I'm not sure I get your point.


What can be done to improve this team assuming Ryan is out for a long time?

1. When are guards aren't cutting it, substitute in Alex at wing.
2. Use Amile as our starting PF with Josh as a backup.
3. Use Marshall to spell Mason. Don't try to force the offense through Mason, it isn't working that well against aggressive physical teams.

Thing is, all three of your ideas were utilized tonight, so I'm not sure those bullet points will improve the team that much.


Maybe a stat person can tell me how many Duke losses between 1990-2009 were by more than 15 points, and how many since? (Is it three or four now? St. Johns, Georgetown, Clemson, Miami? Am I missing one.)

Well, interestingly enough, neither St. Johns (15) nor Georgetown (12) were by more than 15 points. Also, Clemson (27) was in 2009, as was Villanova (22). You did miss Ohio State (22) in 2011-12 and Arizona (16) in 2010-11.


Duke is a flawed and fragile team.

I love reading statements like this after a loss. They make me laugh.

[El_Diablo]

Twenty five to one:
our rankings before the game,
the decisive run.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

To amplify this point a bit, I think the biggest gut check after tonight's disaster goes to Mason. Earlier in the year he looked like a dominant big man. Tonight he looked completely lost, and perhaps of greater concern, seemed to stop hustling when things didn't go his way. When a team's best player & senior leader stops giving a full effort in the face of adversity, it can have the effect of waving a white flag at the rest of the team.

What I am frankly befuddled by is that early in the season, Mason did seem to have a new array of post moves that he'd developed over the summer. Now he's reverted back to weakly crossing into the lane and either firing off a fading hook or passing while airborne, neither of which is a high percentage play. Similarly, his much improved free throw shooting from early in the season seems to have regressed as well.

We'll probably never know the answer to this, but is it possible that Mason is just thinking about things too much? Or is he letting increasingly physical defenders bother him when he gets the ball down low? If it's the latter, maybe Coach James needs to start whacking him with a pugil stick in practice. He is clearly not suffering from a lack of touches, as getting the ball into the post was clearly a point of emphasis tonight despite Mason's inefficiency. To me this is a sign that Coach K realizes how important it is to get effective post play from him.

In any case, I'm firmly convinced that as Mason goes, so will go the rest of Duke's season. If he can channel his inner Laettner/Zoubek and get his toughness/aggressiveness back, we can be a #1 seed with a legitimate shot at the final four. If he continues to struggle, it'll be tough for us to get past the first weekend of the tournament - even with a healthy RK.

I'm looking forward to the rematch with these punks on 3/2. I hope Mason is too.

I saw it a bit differently. I thought the problem for Duke was in the front court. Nobody could guard Miami's guards, (and Kadji). They penetrated at will and scored, or dished to score.

On the other end, Miami's guards were smothering Curry, Cook and Thornton. They were focused on surviving with the ball, not getting it into Mason.

Weak guard play never got Mason in the game. There was no rhythm for getting him the ball. He was totally out of sync, but I can't blame him so much, he wasn't getting decent touches.

Defensively, they were all just terrible. I think they got shell shocked when they missed some chippies, and then Miami got on a roll and made everything.

Their confidence got steamrolled and Miami's blew up like Hulk after that. All of a sudden they look up and it's out of reach. These games happen sometimes to good teams, especially on the road.

Miami is a good team too. it was not all about Duke playing poorly, they played really good basketball.

Some pundits better start putting them in the conversation for a final four spot.

[Kedsy]

If he continues to struggle, it'll be tough for us to get past the first weekend of the tournament - even with a healthy RK.

Mason didn't have his best game tonight, but he went for 15 and 11. Of course anything can happen in the NCAA Tournament, but if Mason "only" averages 15 and 11, and Ryan is healthy and we're playing from a #1 or #2 seed, we'd be huge favorites to get out of the first weekend unscathed. To say otherwise just because of one clunker played without Ryan is just plain silly.

[g-money]

I saw it a bit differently. I thought the problem for Duke was in the front court. Nobody could guard Miami's guards, (and Kadji). They penetrated at will and scored, or dished to score.

On the other end, Miami's guards were smothering Curry, Cook and Thornton. They were focused on surviving with the ball, not getting it into Mason.

Weak guard play never got Mason in the game. There was no rhythm for getting him the ball. He was totally out of sync, but I can't blame him so much, he wasn't getting decent touches.

Defensively, they were all just terrible. I think they got shell shocked when they missed some chippies, and then Miami got on a roll and made everything.

Their confidence got steamrolled and Miami's blew up like Hulk after that. All of a sudden they look up and it's out of reach. These games happen sometimes to good teams, especially on the road.

Miami is a good team too. it was not all about Duke playing poorly, they played really good basketball.

Some pundits better start putting them in the conversation for a final four spot.

I don't know Wheat, Mason got 15 shots (more than anyone else on the team) and 10 FTAs tonight. I think he had plenty of touches.

[Greg_Newton]

One thing this team does need to figure out is who's going to step up in chaotic, athletic, intense games like this when things aren't going perfectly.

K's offenses tend to be unstoppable when things are going as they should - spacing is impeccable, shooters knock down open shots, and everything kind of flows from that. But sometimes, especially in high stakes matchups against hungry, talented teams, game plans kind of go out the window and you've just got to beat the man in front of you.

2010, we had Zoubek bruising anyone who dared come near the rim and getting lots of extra possessions, along with warrior Lance working himself into a maniacally frenzy whenever necessary (see second half of E8 game against Baylor), not to mention one of our toughest players ever in Singler - they thrived in that kind of environment. Mason has the physical abilities to be the guy who wills the team to greater heights this year, but hasn't always seemed to step things up mentally like the aforementioned guys did; loved seeing him bull his way to the rim a few times today.

I'm not sure who else from the starting lineup is built for that kind of game - our three guards are all undersized for their positions, and not particularly strong, athletic, or good rebounders. I think Amile and Alex have potential in that regard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they probably had the two best-relative-to-their-baseline performances today. Alex kind of struggles to be a spot up shooter in our normal offense, but at least he's big and athletic enough to put up a fight when that falls apart.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, and for the record, I think this game was largely a fluke that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme. But this is partly why I wish K weight physical advantages a little more compared to finesse skills sometimes - more room for error, and more room to elevate your game in these kinds of battles.

[jay]

Meh.

This pretty much happens at least once a year, right around this time of year, in fact. Team is on the road and just goes completely cold, looks asleep on defense, and has no fire in their bellies.

Last year it was @ Ohio State, year before was @ St. John's, championship year in '10 was @NCSU and then, just for a bonus, @ Georgetown in front of Obama.

It just happens. Call it the mid-season slump game, call it whatever. But it just happens.

And Miami is much better than advertised. Veteran team, hyped up crowd. You almost had to see this one coming.

Like someone else said earlier, there's no way the team just goes cold like that all on the same night again this season. And Ryan will be back.

Next play.

[Wander]

There's lots of room in between the "this team played with no passion" and "this was just luck" arguments.

I see no reason to believe effort was at all an issue - that's just something people automatically say when they're on the wrong side of a blowout.

But it's not just luck either. Part of it is (I think missing good, open shots in the first half got to us mentally), but Miami's guards didn't just get hot by accident. Our guards have issues defensively, and we sort of take for granted how good our past guards were as individual defenders. Nolan was a great athletic defender, Demarcus was physical, Scheyer was 6'5", and those who didn't have great physical talent typically have made up for it by being good off-ball defenders and/or disrupting passing lanes. Seth Curry doesn't really bring any of these things to the table, and to put it bluntly he's just not a good defender. I don't really know what the solution is, as I want him getting tons of minutes for his offensive skills, and after all, we've beaten a lot of good teams this season. Maybe Kelly coming back will be enough, as good help defense can help mask this stuff.

(I don't mean to put most of the blame on one thing, as obviously in a loss with this margin there's a ton that went wrong - I think it's just something we can look at that was non-flukey)

[Chicago 1995]

I actually think it's simplistic to believe the way we played tonight is an accurate reflection of where this team stands. The game was an outlier. The two teams could play again right now and the odds would be overwhelmingly in favor of a much closer game. Outliers happen.

You are correct, though, that getting Ryan back wouldn't immediately put Duke at its peak. He has to regain conditioning, especially since it's a foot injury. The team has to re-integrate him and that takes time. That's why mid-Feb is about the latest it can be, in my estimation.

Will Duke eventually become (again) a top-3 team if Ryan returns mid-Feb and there are no other injuries? Yes, I believe so. We wouldn't be a perfect team but we weren't perfect even when we were 15-0. But we can become the "as good as anyone else in the country" team again when we have Ryan's spacing/shooting, leadership, ball-handling, and experience back on the court.

You are never as good as your best win or as bad as your best loss.

That being said, since Temple, we've been closer to this than to the team that won in Atlantis and beat UK and OSU too. This is an outlier, sure, but it's part of a larger trend line that's not real positive.

And while the magnitude of the loss might be an outlier, there were echoes of past flaws that reared their heads tonight like an inability to stop dribble penetration, trouble on both ends for our guards against bigger, athletic guards and a complete lack of physical toughness. None of that is new. And it's a problem.

I'm hoping for a return to square 1 against UMD. K reinvented a team in a week when Boozer broke his foot. He can reinvent this one. You'd disagree, but after tonight, I think it needs some reinventing.

[gep]

... K reinvented a team in a week when Boozer broke his foot. He can reinvent this one. You'd disagree, but after tonight, I think it needs some reinventing.

As another poster said earlier, maybe Coach K has not really been "reinventing" this team, hoping for Ryan to get back soon... in fact, just "tweaking". So maybe Coach K really needs to "reinvent" this team... not worry about Ryan coming back... whenever that is. I can't wait... I'm always a "almost-full" guy... forget the glass half-full stuff :cool:

[gumbomoop]

Really interesting, impassioned thread. So many interesting things to comment on, but I'll hope to limit myself to just a few.

Unlike so many of you, I don't have to deal with Heel fans on a daily basis. But I'll begin with one, with whom I sometimes, and definitely this time, agree:


.... how confident that Miami team is right now. They are pretty darn good.


Miami is a good team too. it was not all about Duke playing poorly, they played really good basketball.... Some pundits better start putting them in the conversation for a final four spot.

And jipops agrees that Miami is very good....


Miami was at another level and we just don't have the guards to stay in front. Miami was bigger, quicker, more physical, more experienced and really just have more talent on the floor.

.... Although I do not agree that Miami is at another level over the course of the season, they certainly were several levels above Duke tonight. I doubt that pundits will just yet pencil in the 'Canes for a 1- or 2-seed, but this impressive win makes [I]Miami the favorite to win the regular season ACC. No jive. Sure, they've got tough games at Duke, NCSt, and FSU, plus a home game v. revenge-minded and sometimes-good UNC, and a second game v. FSU. Shoot, they could lose at Clemson. But not only are they 2-up in the loss column vis-a-vis their 3 toughest challengers [Duke, NCSt, and, IMO, UNC], but overall their remaining schedule is a bit less imposing than those of their challengers.

I have been high on Miami since preseason, but would never have predicted this sort of "it happens" game. I thought the 'Canes much more likely than FSU to nip in ahead of UNC, and of course now they may well nip in ahead of all their ACC competitors. But surely this game was an anomaly for both teams. Even those of you who think - and perhaps thought even before this game, what with Ryan's injury, etc. - that Duke is "fatally flawed," agree that Miami rode the Snowball Express tonight. Painful for us to watch, but beautiful for Miami fans, and, I guess, Duke haters.

But we aren't Duke haters, so we do have to think seriously about the flaws. Saratoga2's post, entitled "Reality," accurately points out some things about Mason's game that have troubled me, even during all the NPOY talk.


Mason's offense is limited to a few feet from the basket with mainly dunks, put backs and very short hook shots. Teams realize he has no mid range offense and can play defense to the best part of his game. His touch around the basket is not all that good and his free throw shooting is based on a very flat shot that has very little margin for error. If he hasn't learned more post moves, mid range shooting or free throw technique by now, he isn't likely to this season. When defended by physical guys his size, we can't expect him to carry much of the scoring load.

On more than one thread, I've discussed with several posters my view that Mason's footwork, while improved, is a major flaw in his game. Others have been unconvinced, citing Mason's trouble when he gets bumped or crowded by physical play. I think we saw this some tonight. If I can stand it, I might want to review this game to watch Mason's footwork. True, statistically he had a double-double, but we know that he looked awkward more than once. To me, that awkwardness was/is mostly a footwork thing, but others will offer different theories. We must be near a consensus, however, that Mason often looks unstoppable, while, at other times, gets stopped and stuffed, seriously, harshly, brutally. He's a big force who nevertheless is at times manhandled. If it's not his footwork, it's something: overthinking? Overcrowded, especially in Ryan's absence? Flustered by physical play? IMO, it's gotta be in the shoes. Foot-jive.

I have neither the heart nor the courage to analyze the absence of quality exhibited by stalwarts such as Seth and Quinn. I liked Rasheed's spirit, even if far too often it led him into rash play. I sure liked some of Alex's work, and continue to marvel at Amile's slinky/squirrely/snaky moves, topped off by arm-jive that usually works. Maybe there's a thesis to be written on Amile's arm-jive....

Going forward [as opposed to Amile's remarkable and surprisingly effective penchant for going sideways], I like the way Newton_14 poses K's problem, in the aftermath of this disaster:


K is caught between a rock and hard place trying to determine whether or not to make drastic changes on the assumption we don't get Ryan back, or small tweaks to try to help us get by until Ryan returns.

Since I personally couldn't tell last evening whether K had chosen the rock or the hard place, I think I'll have to pay more attention on Saturday when Md visits CIS.

[dukelifer]

I love reading statements like this after a loss. They make me laugh.

I do what I can to bring humor;) I agree this was harsh in the moment. Still in two years without Kelly - Duke has not played well against good teams. Sample size is small but because they lack a player who can take over they need to find other ways. Also the lack of size in the backcourt seems to be a problem against certain teams on both O snd D. Duke had an awful game but I expected Duke to lose by 10 or more. Not sure if I would have felt much better with that result or if it would have told me that Duke can win against better teams. Right now I am not sure they have found a way and they will need to keep working.

[jcastranio]

It was an epic beatdown and I can't say I didn't see it coming. When I saw Miami beat UNC, I thought that they had a dangerous team.

The very first part of this game was the dog fight I expected. Duke led 14-13, both teams were struggling to find a good shot and I thought that the low-scoring, scratching and clawing game I was destined to see was upon us.

There were a few little things that went their way - good defense that led to a lucky bounce offensive rebound and a three pointer. Seth being called for an offensive foul (replay shows that the ref was fooled by Durand Scott's acting job - there was no foul) and then another defensive foul on the three point play by Scott (again, the wrong ref makes the call - there was no real foul). Suddenly, it is 19-14 and Seth is on the bench. The game hung there for a minute or so, but we were definitely out of sync on offense. With Josh and Amile in the game, we pose no threat offensively. With Seth out, it became easier for the Miami defense to guard us. Suddenly, as happens with the game of basketball, the basket opened up for them and closed for us. That is the way it goes sometimes.

We are not a bad team and we can still be a championship team. But Miami was the better team last night.

Second half? I discount it mostly. We weren't playing to try to win the second half, we were playing to try and make up 25-30 points. We played defenses we typically don't play, we rushed things, Miami ate it up and enjoyed their win. Good for them.

An aside: my high school basketball team played a county rival three times this year in the space of 25 days. They won by 35, lost by 27, and won by 3. Which is it? That's basketball, sometimes. As much as I hated seeing my Blue Devils lose badly, it was something to see those upperclassmen at Miami achieving something through hard work, teamwork, perseverance. Heck, that's the Duke way.

One more question, though. Alex Murphy came on in the second half. seven straight points, 11 overall. After his three pointer, he never saw the ball again. If a guy is hot, ride him. We sort of ignored him, yet he was providing the one thing we needed at the time. Odd.

Next play.

[DukieInBrasil]

Several historically bad losses have happened to Duke squads w/o Kelly. #2 seed lost to #15 seed in NCAAT, which has happened a few times, but not often. Duke has just earned the 3rd largest loss as a #1 team.
On individual levels, we had yet another 0fer from the floor by a key player, Curry 0-10 FGs. Cook was almost just as bad, 1-12 FG. Mason continues to be exposed as an incredibly undeveloped offensive player, although an excellent rebounder. Amile and Alex played well, and that is the only positive to take from the game.
I think that the team was really shocked to find themselves playing in the Big East, at least on O, where Miami couldn't do anything to Duke to get a foul called against them. Whereas Duke was getting called for ticky tack hand-check fouls. I think that put Duke's players in a bad place mentally, from which they never recovered. That shows a real lack of fight and possibly a lack of maturity.
Anyway, Duke better figure out how to play defense and offense before their next game b/c they sure didn't show much of either last night.

[DUKIE V(A)]

3 Quick Thoughts...

1. I believe that the offense needs to continue to run through Mason. He draws a lot of attention and is doing an outstanding job of kicking the ball to open shooters. We need to hit those shots, and I believe we will more times than not.
2. No road game in the ACC should ever be taken for granted. It will be interesting to see how we respond in our next roads games and how Miami responds on the road with the target on their back.
3. Confident or not -- Miami's choreographed, slower than normal floor slap was classless. Perhaps the waking of a sleeping giant. It will be interesting to see if we are still hitting threes under 2 minutes in Cameron up by double digits vs. Miami.

[slower]

Miami's choreographed, slower than normal floor slap was classless.

Come on, it's "The U" - nobody should EVER be surprised when they do anything classless.

[dyedwab]

...I'm more sympathetic to loran16 view that this game was an aberration in which luck played a great part. We were the victims of ok shooters shooting lights out, open shots that we normally make not going in, and a physical game in which fouls were called inconsistently, to our detriment.

That said, the problem with last night game wasn't those things particularly, but how the team reacted. Listening to the game early, the announcers said, "Boy, Duke is missing a lot of shots it normally makes." And then the followed up with, "but eventually they'll get hot, they won't miss those all night." That is a fairly good, and optimistic, way of looking at what happened. The other way, and the way we appeared to react was "Oh boy, our shots aren't falling, they can't miss anything, and we are being pushed around. I better figure out how to break us out." Which led to a lot of ill-advised decision making on both ends of the floor and a demoralized effort.

This is correctable, but it is a painful process to watch.

[Matches]

Positive things to take away from this one:

- The team traveled to and from Miami without incident.

- Coach K's tie was nice.

[CDu]

Well, that stunk. A lot. That is as sound a beating as I've seen Duke take in my memory. It's rare that we've trailed by 30+ for long stretches of a game.

Going in, I thought the keys to the game were:
- Mason needed to dominate his matchup against Gamble
- Curry needed to dominate his matchup against McKinney-Jones
- Cook needed to win his matchup against Larkin
- Jefferson and Hairston needed to keep Kadji from having a monster game
- Sulaimon needed to keep Scott from having a monster game.

If we could do all of (or at least the majority of) those things, we'd most likely win. We did none of those things. The result? A bad, bad, BAD loss.

Miami's defensive game plan was simple:
- collapse the defense in the paint whenever Mason got the ball
- hedge hard on ball screens
- chase Curry relentlessly and be physical on him around screens

That meant we got lots of open 3s (with the exception of Curry, who only had 1 or 2 open 3s). We have to hit those to make defenses pay for collapsing on Mason.

The positives:
Murphy: Murphy played a lot and played pretty well. He found open spots on the floor on offense and that led to several easy layups. And he didn't do a bad job defensively (though his assignment was against the weakest wing player for Miami).
Jefferson: Jefferson again showed flashes of his uncanny ability to finish awkwardly around the basket. I think he's going to be very good.
Sulaimon: his defensive intensity never waned, and he finished the game very strong.

The negatives:
Shooting: first and foremost, we lost this game because our shots didn't fall. We got tons of open looks in the first half, but none of them were going down. That kept the game close for the first 10 minutes, and allowed Miami to get separation when they started hitting shots in the latter part of the 1st half. And once they got confidence, the avalanche began. Curry went 0-10. Cook went 1-12. Thornton went 0-7. Mason went 5-14. We shot 4-23 from 3pt range and 18-50 from 2pt range. Just a bad bad night offensively, and that carried over to the other end of the court.
Cook vs Larkin: In a matchup of arguably the second and third best PG in the ACC (and a pair of talented sophomores), Cook lost the battle. He had only two drives to the rim, but missed both easy layups. But more importantly, he just couldn't stay in front of Larkin. Larkin was repeatedly able to get to the rim, where he finished well. The end result: 18 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists.
Mason: It might seem weird to list Mason's play as a negative when he went for 15 and 11, but I think it has to be. Mason shot terribly (5-14) and committed 5 turnovers. Miami played him physically (and got away with some fouls), but even when they weren't fouling him Mason was making questionable decisions. He seemed frustrated, and he's no longer showing the moves that he was making earlier in the season (we're back to the running jump-hook in in the lane as his only move). Now, I don't expect him to be able to score efficiently against a collapsing defense, but I do expect him to make good decisions and pass out to open shooters more frequently when the collapsing defense happens. As well as he's played this year, he's simply not good enough to consistently score through the teeth of the defense.

Not much to take away from this one. Maybe it means Murphy gets more run in the future. Maybe not. It seems clear that Jefferson has surpassed Hairston in the rotation, and I don't see that changing moving forward. At this point, the real question will be "when does Kelly come back, and can he fix our offensive woes?"

[oldnavy]

First, remember that Jim Larranaga is an outstanding coach. He won at George Mason and did amazing things there. Now he has better overall talent that is buying into his style. Miami is for real and is a strong player not only in the ACC but on a National Level. With Reggie Johnson back, they are about as scary a team as there is IMO.

Second, K's interview after the game was telling. He didn't say much (obviously very upset), but what he did say spoke volumes. Basically he called out the leadership of the team. He said that the three main players (MP2, Seth, Quinn) had to develope new roles in RK's absence. That they had to basically step up and become men.

Some people wonder why Tyler Thornton gets so much PT. Well it is because he is perhaps the toughest guy on this team and not by a little bit. I believe K uses TT to bring that swag to the court with the hopes that the other 4 will feed off it. Imagine if all 5 guys on the floor at any given time had TT's attitude and aggressiveness!!

Another poster said, don't be surprised if someone emerges from practice this week with a broken nose.... I agree.

We (yes I personally identify myself with each Duke team strange as it may seem) got a good ol' fashioned butt whooping.... maybe it will be a complexion changer for this year.

[Channing]

The game sucked.

BUT ... I thought Alex looked pretty good, and hopefully earned the trust of the coaches to keep getting good minutes. I thought he looked aggressive on offense and was looking for his shot and working hard.

What I didn't like, though, was that Duke stopped moving the ball around. It was one pass and then a contested shot. We were forcing bad shots which led to quick swings and quick buckets by Miami. Perhaps its an abberation, and perhaps last night's game is clouding my memory, but I have to agree with a post from the in game thread. Our biggest difference from the early season run isn't at the 4 positon, its at the 1.

[Luther]

I disagree. If the issue was effort, then there is a problem. If the issue is missed shots and running into a hot team while you are missing a key player, then next play. Curry will never again go 0-10+ in his duke career.

I just don't see how this team can allow a 30 point beatdown. I knew that this team would loose a few games but I really didnt think that we would see this.....

[roywhite]

Lots of good comments.

The main positive I can think of is that this team should now have NO illusions of being good enough to win without good effort and execution. Weaknesses that have been talked about -- small backcourt players against bigger, physical guards, trouble handling ball screens on the perimeter, bad spacing without Ryan, Mason's lack of a shooting touch, and uncertain player leadership --- were brutally exposed.

I kept thinking about the '10 championship team down the stretch --- just how tough (physically tough and tough-minded) the frontcourt was with Zoubs, Lance, and Singler, and how the backcourt of Jon and Nolan could execute against defensive pressure, how that team would have responded soooo much better to a tough situation.

This team has a long way to go, and a very uncertain journey if Ryan doesn't return to form. But, as usual, they will be interesting to follow to see how they and the coaches respond.

[MIKESJ73]

Miami looked like it was a team full of first round draft picks last night. It's only one game though. That was the same offensive juggernaut that had 39 points on the score board with 4 minutes to go in the game against Maryland two games ago and also the same team that trailed an awful BC team with less than a minute to go, managing to score a whopping 60 points in their last game.

Sometimes you can't do wrong on the court and sometimes nothing goes right for you. Kadji entered the game with a 33% 3pt FG% and Scott with a 31% 3pt FG%, but they went 5-7, and both had career high nights. Larkin looked unstoppable, but that was his career high in rebounds and second highest scoring output ever. Their performances were just as big of an anomaly as the Seth/Quinn 1-22 FG's.

With or without RK, we will be favored at home. I like our odds at payback....It's one game it happens. No one really thinks that Chaminade was a better team than Virginia and Bootsy Thorton was not a 40pt scorer.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I just thought we looked out of sync. Maybe there is a better way to describe our play, but we just didn't execute and didn't look like we had a lot of fight. I really thought we could come back in the second half. There is a long way to go in the season. I really hope this doesn't hurt our chance at a No. 1 seed.

[azzefkram]

Mason:I do expect him to make good decisions and pass out to open shooters more frequently when the collapsing defense happens.

I agree with everything you wrote but the above portion. He did pass out to open shooters, they just missed and missed and missed. Could he have done it more? I guess so, but for all we know maybe Coach K told him to shoot. I also think Mason appears to lack the explosiveness he had earlier in the year. Maybe a nagging injury or tired legs.

[slower]

I really hope this doesn't hurt our chance at a No. 1 seed.

A #1 seed? Really? As of today, I think you're getting WAY ahead of yourself.

[ChrisP]

To add insult to injury (for me, anyway), I just looked at Miami's schedule and realized they beat lowly BC by 1 whole point in the game right before us. Yeah, it was on the road and yeah, it was without Reggie Munster, but they scored all of 60 points doing it. To Boston College. Seriously?

I guess what bothers me most - and maybe someone with more time on their hands will respond with something to refute what I'm about to say - is that I don't recall other "top" teams getting blown out as often as Duke seems to. I guess the "Lost Colony" game by the Heels last year certainly qualifies, but I don't remember OSU, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan (in the Beilein era), Mich St getting their doors blown off like we seem to just about every year. Sure, those teams have lost and played badly at times, but...do they lose by 20+ points? Like I said before, they probably do but I just don't remember it because I don't follow them like I do Duke, but I my perception is that we seem to get stomped more than these other top programs.

[Durham Thunder]

In terms of long term success, I really think this was the kill shot to the season.

I said it on Sunday: This road game against an undefeated, decent ACC team on the road would tell how well Duke handles a challenge. Not just from an opponent, but a challenge in times of adversity. Duke fell on its face so bad; worse than last year @ Ohio State, and much much worse than 08-09 Clemson. Bad losses happen, but there was no life and no fire in our players. I don't know what happened to the team from November.

[Class of '94]

I admit that I'm being petty when I say this; but I want revenge for this loss and Miami's trash-talking by completely destroying Miami in Cameron. I agree with Wheat in that you let sleeping dogs lie. I am surprised that Miami's coach that he allowed the players to mock Duke with the slapping the floor move, kept his starters in until the final minute or two, and brought out Reggie Johnson for this game (weeks ahead of schedule) in a surprise move that caught people off guard. Nothing the coach did was illegal or immoral; I just thought he was supposed to be classier than that.

And while it hurt to watch Duke get thumped and allow themselves to be humiliated by Miami, I too hope that this could be the game to ignite the team to improve and go on a run. We need everybody to get the chip on their shoulders back and stop believing all of the positive press-clippings. That said, I do think the Miami game in Cameron could be a challenge in Cameron (especially if we don't have Ryan back) because Reggie Johnson will be fully integrated back into their team and could be an even better team at that point. Regardless of whoever we have, I hope the team comes out with the fight, intensity and desire to crush that team.

[freshmanjs]

In terms of long term success, I really think this was the kill shot to the season.

I said it on Sunday: This road game against an undefeated, decent ACC team on the road would tell how well Duke handles a challenge. Not just from an opponent, but a challenge in times of adversity. Duke fell on its face so bad; worse than last year @ Ohio State, and much much worse than 08-09 Clemson. Bad losses happen, but there was no life and no fire in our players. I don't know what happened to the team from November.

it's a long season. there is plenty of time for the team to get clicking again. the 1991 championship team was ranked around #14-15 at about this point in the season. i think this was a bad loss too, but the team is still (from memory) 4-2 against top 25 teams.

[gw67]

Lots of good comments.

The main positive I can think of is that this team should now have NO illusions of being good enough to win without good effort and execution. Weaknesses that have been talked about -- small backcourt players against bigger, physical guards, trouble handling ball screens on the perimeter, bad spacing without Ryan, Mason's lack of a shooting touch, and uncertain player leadership --- were brutally exposed.

I kept thinking about the '10 championship team down the stretch --- just how tough (physically tough and tough-minded) the frontcourt was with Zoubs, Lance, and Singler, and how the backcourt of Jon and Nolan could execute against defensive pressure, how that team would have responded soooo much better to a tough situation.

This team has a long way to go, and a very uncertain journey if Ryan doesn't return to form. But, as usual, they will be interesting to follow to see how they and the coaches respond.

I like the above thoughts. The Devils have several players with good basketball skills (dribble/pass/shoot and high basketball IQ) but they are not blessed with great athleticism. They need to be ready for every ACC game, particularly those on the road.

Miami reminds me of a high-quality mid major - good coach, plenty of experience (I doubt that many teams have as much experience as Miami), and great guard play. In addition they have more size and strength than most majors. They are "real".

gw67

[rsvman]

loran's long post about "luck" is interesting and compelling. Although he uses the word "luck" throughout the post, it is clear by reading it that what he is referring to actually chance. Chance is a statistical/mathematical concept.

Certain parts of his theory are obviously true. For example, if a guy shoots 40% for the season, that certainly doesn't mean that he shoots 40% in every game. He might have a game wherein he shoots 25%, and maybe later a game wherein he shoots 65%; through the course of a season it comes out to 40%. OK, I buy that.

Furthermore, if you give one person a coin and ask him to flip it 100 times and write down for each flip whether it came up heads or tails, and you give another guy a sheet of paper numbered 1-100 and ask him to write down a random list of heads and tails, as though he were flipping a coin, a good statistician or mathematician would pretty easily be able to tell which one of the papers came from the guy who actually flipped the coin. The reason is that when a person is asked to approximate mathematical randomness, he/she almost always underestimates how many times in a row a coin will come up heads (or tails). In other words, the person trying to make something look random would never put a string 9 heads in a row, but if you actually flip a coin 100 times this sort of thing pops up with some regularity.

These are the underpinnings that make it tempting to agree with loran's post, and attribute the lopsided loss to chance (or "luck," as he called it).

However, ultimately I think the theory is fundamentally flawed by the fact that shooting a basketball is not like flipping a coin, in that making or missing shots is not a random event. When you flip a coin, there is nothing you can do to influence the outcome of the flip; therefore, the result of the previous flip has no influence on the subsequent one. Even if you have just flipped 5 heads in a row, you are neither more nor less likely to flip a head on the next toss. In shooting a basketball, however, the results of the previous shot may influence the outcome of the next one in very tangible ways. There is a lot of psychology in shooting a basketball. In fact, I'd argue from experience alone that the majority of good shooters are "streaky," meaning that when they start hitting shots they tend to hit a lot of shots, and vice versa.

Thus, I would argue for a variation of loran's theory; namely, that although chance was probably a large part of the beginning of the Miami run (we miss a few, they make a few), that thereafter luck had virtually nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Our guys, seeing the ball miss a few times, began to think they they were "off." Conversely, their guys, seeing the ball go in a few times, began to think that they were "on." After that, the belief actually became the reality, via psychological methods. They got into what sports psychologists call "the zone." Our guys were in whatever the opposite of the zone is. The "zone" is a phenomenon in which the conscious mind lets go of all control of the outcome of a physical movement, such as shooting a basketball, hitting a tennis ball, hitting a golf ball, etc. It allows the body to naturally do the right motion to allow a good outcome. Shooting, hitting tennis or golf balls, etc., gets considerably more difficult the more you try to control the outcome. For example, trying to "steer" a drive on a narrow golf hole inevitably leads to a shot that will not go straight. When the hole is wide open, hitting a straight drive (although not necessary) becomes considerably easier.

What happened, in my opinion, is that our shooters overly consciously tried to control the outcome of their shots, and Miami's shooters just shot the ball. You've heard sports guys use the expression "unconscious"? Remarkably, it's an accurate description of being in "the zone." Miami's shooters were unconscious.


The defensive side is a whole other issue that I don't have time to address right now, but I do believe it was influenced in a negative way by the poor shooting.

[slower]

the 1991 championship team was ranked around #14-15 at about this point in the season.

Laettner, Hurley and Hill aren't walking through that door, my friend. Neither are Singler, Smith, or Scheyer. Those players are at a different level of competitiveness and toughness.

Not saying it can't happen, just that it's not such a simple comparison.

[freshmanjs]

Laettner, Hurley and Hill aren't walking through that door, my friend. You're comparing apples to...well, not even oranges.

of course, but the overall level of competition is way down too. my point was just that midseason struggles don't necessarily imply end of season struggles.

[jipops]

One thing this team does need to figure out is who's going to step up in chaotic, athletic, intense games like this when things aren't going perfectly.

K's offenses tend to be unstoppable when things are going as they should - spacing is impeccable, shooters knock down open shots, and everything kind of flows from that. But sometimes, especially in high stakes matchups against hungry, talented teams, game plans kind of go out the window and you've just got to beat the man in front of you.

2010, we had Zoubek bruising anyone who dared come near the rim and getting lots of extra possessions, along with warrior Lance working himself into a maniacally frenzy whenever necessary (see second half of E8 game against Baylor), not to mention one of our toughest players ever in Singler - they thrived in that kind of environment. Mason has the physical abilities to be the guy who wills the team to greater heights this year, but hasn't always seemed to step things up mentally like the aforementioned guys did; loved seeing him bull his way to the rim a few times today.

I'm not sure who else from the starting lineup is built for that kind of game - our three guards are all undersized for their positions, and not particularly strong, athletic, or good rebounders. I think Amile and Alex have potential in that regard, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they probably had the two best-relative-to-their-baseline performances today. Alex kind of struggles to be a spot up shooter in our normal offense, but at least he's big and athletic enough to put up a fight when that falls apart.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, and for the record, I think this game was largely a fluke that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme. But this is partly why I wish K weight physical advantages a little more compared to finesse skills sometimes - more room for error, and more room to elevate your game in these kinds of battles.

Most everyone's offenses tend to be unstoppable when open looks are 1) plenty available and 2) are going down.

I don't think this game should be dismissed as a fluke. I agree with Kedsy that without Ryan we are an adequate offensive team, not great, not terrible, just adequate. Our defense, however, is poor. When a merely adequate offense like ours can't get anything going against an excellent defensive team like Miami (8th defensive efficiency according to kenpom), then chances are good a blowout will take place when your defense is less than adequate. If this were truly a fluke then no real changes would need to take place and the team could just go about it's current way without Ryan. But if it's not, well..., who knows what can/needs to/will change? It's not at all out of the question we could witness another game like this in the coming weeks.

[Durham Thunder]

of course, but the overall level of competition is way down too. my point was just that midseason struggles don't necessarily imply end of season struggles.

The Clemson beatdown in 08-09 certainly exploited Duke's gaping weakness in a hostile environment that year. Also, Duke beat Kansas last year in a neutral site while getting flattened by the Buckeyes on the road. Losses like this are (unfortunately) telling of a team's ceiling. Kelly or not, where was the TENACITY? Where was the inspiration???? Where was that confidence we had, beating a #3, 2, AND 4????

[Durham Thunder]

I hope the entire team runs suicides for 3 hours straight today, tomorrow, and before the Maryland game. K needs to put some vigor back in these "boys".

[jipops]

I really hope this doesn't hurt our chance at a No. 1 seed.

I'm hoping this is laced with sarcasm. So far, we have not shown an ability to win an ACC game on the road (granted talented opponents). Unless something drastically changes we could be staring at a conference record that isn't exactly #1 seed worthy.

[vick]

The Clemson beatdown in 08-09 certainly exploited Duke's gaping weakness in a hostile environment that year.

We won the conference that year too. Sure, this loss was awful to watch, and I don't think we're capable of being a Final Four team without a healthy Kelly myself, but let's have a little perspective--a conference championship and going to the Sweet 16 (as happened in 2009 after a similar beating) is a fine result, and quite attainable. Sure, we all hope for more, and I'm positive the coaches and team aim for more, but we sound like a pretty entitled fan base when we say things that are, in effect, "this loss is just like the slaughter a few years ago that exposed a team that only won the toughest conference in the country and made the Sweet 16!"

[CDu]

I agree with everything you wrote but the above portion. He did pass out to open shooters, they just missed and missed and missed. Could he have done it more? I guess so, but for all we know maybe Coach K told him to shoot. I also think Mason appears to lack the explosiveness he had earlier in the year. Maybe a nagging injury or tired legs.

That's a fair point. He did, early in the game, kick some out. It may very well be that, when the first few didn't result in baskets, Mason decided he was going to force up shots. Or, it could be that Coach K told Mason to start taking more shots. Either way, the result was Mason forcing shots that weren't there. But maybe it wasn't his fault.

Sadly, this means we now no longer control our own destiny with regard to the ACC regular season and seeding for the ACC touranment. If we win out and Miami wins all their remaining non-Duke games, we fall one game behind them in the standings.

Had we won, both teams would have controlled their own destiny. Now, Miami is clearly in the driver's seat.

This also marks two road games against teams with very talented players at our least confident position (PF). And it marked the first road game in which a team had elite players against whom we started freshmen. Kadji and Scott went off against Jefferson and Sulaimon. Two seniors took advantage of two freshmen. Such is life, sometimes. Hopefully they'll learn from it.

[FerryFor50]

One thing I'm surprised that nobody has brought up (at least in the post-game thread so far) is the psychological effect of Reggie Johnson going all Willis Reed on us. It had to give Miami a lift and knock Duke back a bit. People in this thread have said our week-long preparation for this game was "wrong," but that preparation assumed Johnson wasn't going to play. So when he did play, the natural thing would be for us to feel tentative, because things were vastly different than what we prepared for, and for Miami to feel super-confident, because they had their big guy back. And both teams did, in fact, look that way.



Actually, I mentioned it in the in-game thread. :)

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?30274-MBB-Duke-at-Miami-%28Jan-23-2013%29-Pre-Game-and-In-Game-Thread&p=619837#post619837


This game... Yeesh.

Figures they'd get Reggie Johnson back for this game. I'm sure that amped up Miami a bit, not to mention the big red target on Duke's back, including the shiny #1 ranking.

Mix in an offense that hasn't really been in sync since Kelly went down and a dash of a regressing Quinn Cook, and you have tonight's travesty.

Nothing to get angry about, really. Just learn and move on, and stay/get healthy!

[Billy Dat]

Looks like U-alum and courtside spectator, Warren Sapp, inspired the floor slap...classic.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/21608958/warren-sapp-gets-miami-players-to-slap-floor-in-rout-of-duke

Because we are still only three games post-Kelly, I think his absence can't be underestimated. It's not an excuse, it's reality that we are basically back to training camp without him for the following reasons:
-The 7 man rotation that K had cemented was perfect because everyone had a perfectly defined role and those roles fit together tongue and groove. The two reserves, Tyler and Josh, earned that spots based largely on their ability to maintain the defensive end of the floor because the most used combinations of the starters and reserves could keep scoring.
-Ryan going down gave Tyler and Josh a chance for more minutes, but they haven't really been able to elevate their games from their former reserve capabilities.
-In the last 3 games, Quinn has not really rose to the challenge of playing a more prominent offensive role.
-Rasheed has actually shown signs of more offensive production, but it's hard to gauge potential in a beat down like last night
-That leaves K with the challenge of giving Amile, Alex and, to a lesser extent Marshall, extended minutes to see what they bring to the table

All that is to say that since Ryan went down, outside of Mason and Seth, no one is really sure of their role. Quinn and Sheed need to help more on the offensive end while keeping their defense at a high level. Amile and Alex need to figure out how to be efficient and productive on both ends. Mason and Seth need to guide these guys through the process while figuring out which of them can be trusted to execute on both ends (e.g. Mason catches the ball, starts his cross lane drive, looks up, sees Alex and Quinn open around the 3 point line - does he shoot himself or pass to one of those guys? If Ryan was open at the 3, it's a no brainer, it's not a no-brainer now). Everything in in flux right now - especially the rotation.

[roywhite]

Looks like U-alum and courtside spectator, Warren Sapp, inspired the floor slap...classic.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/21608958/warren-sapp-gets-miami-players-to-slap-floor-in-rout-of-duke

Because we are still only three games post-Kelly, I think his absence can't be underestimated. It's not an excuse, it's reality that we are basically back to training camp without him for the following reasons:
-The 7 man rotation that K had cemented was perfect because everyone had a perfectly defined role and those roles fit together tongue and groove. The two reserves, Tyler and Josh, earned that spots based largely on their ability to maintain the defensive end of the floor because the most used combinations of the starters and reserves could keep scoring.
-Ryan going down gave Tyler and Josh a chance for more minutes, but they haven't really been able to elevate their games from their former reserve capabilities.
-In the last 3 games, Quinn has not really rose to the challenge of playing a more prominent offensive role.
-Rasheed has actually shown signs of more offensive production, but it's hard to gauge potential in a beat down like last night
-That leaves K with the challenge of giving Amile, Alex and, to a lesser extent Marshall, extended minutes to see what they bring to the table

All that is to say that since Ryan went down, outside of Mason and Seth, no one is really sure of their role. Quinn and Sheed need to help more on the offensive end while keeping their defense at a high level. Amile and Alex need to figure out how to be efficient and productive on both ends. Mason and Seth need to guide these guys through the process while figuring out which of them can be trusted to execute on both ends (e.g. Mason catches the ball, starts his cross lane drive, looks up, sees Alex and Quinn open around the 3 point line - does he shoot himself or pass to one of those guys? If Ryan was open at the 3, it's a no brainer, it's not a no-brainer now). Everything in in flux right now - especially the rotation.

Agree with these comments.

I'm still left with a feeling of shock at just HOW BAD things got last night. An outlier we should hope, but we saw vulnerability, fragility, and outright poor performances.

[CDu]

Agree with these comments.

I'm still left with a feeling of shock at just HOW BAD things got last night. An outlier we should hope, but we saw vulnerability, fragility, and outright poor performances.

We certainly got rattled when the shots started falling for them and kept not falling for us. That snowballed late in the first half and we couldn't recover. That needs to not happen again.

Sulaimon and Jefferson got lessons in what senior stars can do if you aren't more sound defensively. Cook got a lesson as well in how a PG can dominate off the dribble. Hopefully all 3 of these young players learn from the experience.

Coach K noticed the struggles of these 3 guys, and tried changing things up (going with Hairston and, briefly, Marshall at PF; going with Thornton and Murphy on the perimeter). But Hairston and Thornton couldn't provide anything offensively, and couldn't stop Kadji or Scott, either. Murphy responded offensively, but Coach K played it safe with him defensively, putting him on McKinney-Jones/Brown (Miami's weakest offensive players).

Just a tough situation when you don't have alternatives for 3 struggling players on the floor. It was interesting to see Sulaimon respond down the stretch, and we did show some success with the full court pressure. But it was way too little, way too late.

These young players are going to have to play better defensively moving forward, because there are going to be nights when Mason and Curry can't carry us to victory alone. Last night was one of those nights, in kind of an extreme way.

[Billy Dat]

I'm still left with a feeling of shock at just HOW BAD things got last night. An outlier we should hope, but we saw vulnerability, fragility, and outright poor performances.

I agree with those who think Miami is really good. First off, they were ranked and it's late January. That says something. They've beaten Michigan State, and they have 3 ACC road wins. So what if the BC win was by 1, an ACC road win is an ACC road win. Plus, that program had never beaten a number 1 team, so they were amped up. Even before the Larranaga era, Miami always seemed to play us tough, going back 10 years. Larranaga has really taken the foundation that Haith laid to the next level. It may be a small sample size, but he's 2-0 against K since joining the conference. Throw in, as Kedsy cleverly pointed out, the Reggie "Willis Reed" effect, and it was a charged atmosphere.

The worst part, for me, was the first few minutes of the second half. I hated that we came out of the locker room so flat. After that, they showed some fight. Had we come out and maybe trimmed the 23 down to 15 quickly, maybe we get some confidence and can at least put some game pressure on.

Hopefully, we'll be a bit more plucky with the Terps coming to Cameron for the last time in a long time, perhaps forever. Even if the energy and spirit is there, we are still likely to see a team struggling to figure out who is supposed to do what, when. A few shots going in early might help.

[slower]

Looks like U-alum and courtside spectator, Warren Sapp, inspired the floor slap...classic.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/21608958/warren-sapp-gets-miami-players-to-slap-floor-in-rout-of-duke

Gotta love "The U" - scumbags now and forever.

[Durham Thunder]

I hope the players remember that floor slapping all year. Miami has been relevant in basketball for 3 seconds, so its surprising to see them act as if they've been around and Duke needs to take note. However, with that being said, Duke was so bad last night that the Miami floor slapping is justified. We're looking at a fall of possibly 10-11 places in the rankings.

[FerryFor50]

I hope the players remember that floor slapping all year. Miami has been relevant in basketball for 3 seconds, so its surprising to see them act as if they've been around and Duke needs to take note. However, with that being said, Duke was so bad last night that the Miami floor slapping is justified. We're looking at a fall of possibly 10-11 places in the rankings.

There is no way Duke drops 10-11 spots based on one loss, regardless of how bad it was.

Likely they drop to the 5-7 range at most.

[roywhite]

Hopefully, we'll be a bit more plucky with the Terps coming to Cameron for the last time in a long time, perhaps forever. Even if the energy and spirit is there, we are still likely to see a team struggling to figure out who is supposed to do what, when. A few shots going in early might help.

Yeah, no doubt. I was so pleased when Rasheed hit a 3-pt shot in the first 15 seconds or so last night! Ah, what a good start; the guy whose confidence we're worried about started well.

So much for an initial impression. :(

[FerryFor50]

Yeah, no doubt. I was so pleased when Rasheed hit a 3-pt shot in the first 15 seconds or so last night! Ah, what a good start; the guy whose confidence we're worried about started well.

So much for an initial impression. :(

Also, consider when your leader and best shooter goes 0-10. Not only does that kill HIS confidence, but also his teammates' confidence.

"Crap, if he can't hit a shot..."

[slower]

I hope the players remember that floor slapping all year. Miami has been relevant in basketball for 3 seconds, so its surprising to see them act as if they've been around and Duke needs to take note. However, with that being said, Duke was so bad last night that the Miami floor slapping is justified. We're looking at a fall of possibly 10-11 places in the rankings.

I'm guessing that, come the rematch in CIS, K will instruct the players to act classy and not react in kind, no matter how much we'd like him to loose the forces of appropriate retribution/justice/payback. That's not to say, however, that Tyler won't play an even more "hard-nosed" game than usual.

You know, at this point, if our team finds themselves in a situation where they are being deliberately disrespected, I'd rather see them send out a physical message than win. Until they send out a message that they will NOT be punked, other teams will keep acting and playing as if they CAN punk them with impunity.

[wk2109]

I'm hoping this is laced with sarcasm. So far, we have not shown an ability to win an ACC game on the road (granted talented opponents). Unless something drastically changes we could be staring at a conference record that isn't exactly #1 seed worthy.

"Drastically changes?" That's a little bit dramatic. Duke had the misfortune of playing the two best teams in the ACC (besides Duke) in its first two road games. Did you see the crowds? Miami created a special website JUST to sell tickets for this one game. A combination of amped up crowds, talented home teams, and an injured senior captain is tough to overcome. It will only get easier from here.

Also, the 2010 team lost 4 of its first 5 true road games and started 3-2 in the ACC. I'm not saying this team will turn it around like 2010 did, but the whole "Duke can't win on the road" song was definitely being sung around here and by the national media. People on this board need to step back and look at the season from a bigger perspective. I don't think anyone thought after the 2010 Georgetown beatdown that the team could end the season on a 17-1 run.

People are saying this game wasn't an aberration. In one sense, I think that's correct: Duke showed some offensive/defensive deficiencies and poor decision making that usually play a role in losses. However, I think the 27-point blowout aspect of the loss was certainly an aberration. The combination of Duke's poor shooting and Miami's hot shooting (which is probably a mix of chance AND being 'in the zone' astutely pointed out on this board) certainly played a role in the size of the final deficit. I have no way of knowing this, but I'd surmise that a more 'average' shooting night for both teams would have chopped 15-20 points off the final deficit (though you could argue that the shooting would have affected other aspects of the game as well).

Amile and Josh will never shoot like Ryan, but it would be huge if either of them could consistently knock down a 12-15 foot jumper. With the attention that Mason gets inside, they will always have that shot. Josh seems to be able to make that shot at about an 80% clip at Countdown to Craziness, then at about a 0% clip once the games start to matter. (Seriously, has he hit a single jumper this year? I really don't remember.)

I loved how Rasheed looked genuinely angry toward the end of the game. I think he's a special talent -- hopefully K and the rest of the team keep encouraging him to release the fury. He could be the difference offensively if he plays with that kind of confidence/fire for 40 minutes.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I know it is said all the time in sports, but in reality controlling one's/team's destiny can't be true. A person or team can't control its own "destiny" or by definition it wouldn't be destiny. A team can at one point or another theoretically control many things, but unfortunately destiny isn't one of them.

GO DUKE!!

[peterjswift]

I've been getting some texts from friends about a late night practice that Duke held last night after the game. Anyone hear anything about it or know anything? I can't come up with anything concrete, and I don't want to start rumors or anything, but I'm interested to hear what kind of practice they had and how it went over with the team. Perhaps players were tweeting about it? Can anyone confirm?

If not, mods, feel free to delete.

[nmduke2001]

I think if some of those early, wide-open, shots fall the game turns out much different. Not saying that we win, but probably not a blow-out. We couldn't hit anything early and that led to run outs for Miami. It didn't help that they couldn't miss.

One thing that bothered me from the day the schedule came out was the lack of true road games early. I was positive that we would not win at State since it was our first road game. I wish we could have played a game or two in someone elses gym before mid January.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I think if some of those early, wide-open, shots fall the game turns out much different. Not saying that we win, but probably not a blow-out. We couldn't hit anything early and that led to run outs for Miami. It didn't help that they couldn't miss.

One thing that bothered me from the day the schedule came out was the lack of true road games early. I was positive that we would not win at State since it was our first road game. I wish we could have played a game or two in someone elses gym before mid January.

I sort of understand why Coach K limits our early games to home/neutral court. But when we have two road games with good teams very early in the ACC season, wouldn't it make sense for some of our pre-ACC games to be played on opponents' courts with hostile or semi-hostile environments?

Just asking....

[oldnavy]

I'm guessing that, come the rematch in CIS, K will instruct the players to act classy and not react in kind, no matter how much we'd like him to loose the forces of appropriate retribution/justice/payback. That's not to say, however, that Tyler won't play an even more "hard-nosed" game than usual.

You know, at this point, if our team finds themselves in a situation where they are being deliberately disrespected, I'd rather see them send out a physical message than win. Until they send out a message that they will NOT be punked, other teams will keep acting and playing as if they CAN punk them with impunity.

Well, I hate to bring this up but Miami beat us in Cameron last year. They were not itimidated then and are certainly not going to be intimidated now. Reggie Johnson owned us. I remember watching that game in Cameron thinking and shouting for someone to just knock RJ on his arse!! Not dirty mind you but in a way that says, 'you are going to have to go through me to get to the basket big boy'! Never happened.

I have no reason 'today' to think that we will beat them when they come to Durham, in fact right now, I think we will lose the rematch. I think we will get beat by Maryland, and UNC. Only the other day, I said that I would be disappointed if we lost to UNC this year, well that is true, I will be, but UNC seems to be playing with more passion and excitment (albeit with less talent) than we are. WHY?????

The issue is DUKE. What will we do? How will we respond?? My hope is that Coach K can connect with them and instill some fight before the next game with UofMd.

I would love to watch the next practice... I bet it would be like a combination of Brave Heart and Warrior!!

You watch, as pathetic as Maryland was against the Heels, they will come out like a pro team against us. Seen it happen hundreds of times, and we had BETTER be ready for it and take the fight to them.

Have I given up?? Never!! But I do need to see some fight and fire in the next few games before I feel good about our long term prospects this year.

The bad shooting nights happen, but the defense HAS to be better than they were last night....
Can we get Nate James to donate some blood for transfusions??? We need a Bad &^%^ or two on this team. The talent is there, but hey other teams have top talent too! We need swag!!

BRING IT BOYS, BRING IT!!!!!!!

[Class of '94]

I've been getting some texts from friends about a late night practice that Duke held last night after the game. Anyone hear anything about it or know anything? I can't come up with anything concrete, and I don't want to start rumors or anything, but I'm interested to hear what kind of practice they had and how it went over with the team. Perhaps players were tweeting about it? Can anyone confirm?

If not, mods, feel free to delete.

Check out airowe's twitter account and you can see some tweets about it. Apparently the DP show reported it in the last hour of the program; and it would it appear to be an ncaa violation if that had occurred; but there are people disputing the report. As tweeted out, it could have been a situation where the players called a team practice and not the coaches.

[peterjswift]

Check out airowe's twitter account and you can see some tweets about it. Apparently the DP show reported it in the last hour of the program; and it would it appear to be an ncaa violation if that had occurred; but there are people disputing the report. As tweeted out, it could have been a situation where the players called a team practice and not the coaches.

Just found this link too: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2013/01/24/reports-that-duke-practiced-late-last-night-upon-arrival-from-miami-disputed/

[Kedsy]

In terms of long term success, I really think this was the kill shot to the season.

Should we just cancel the rest of the games then?


Laettner, Hurley and Hill aren't walking through that door, my friend. Neither are Singler, Smith, or Scheyer. Those players are at a different level of competitiveness and toughness.

Well, at this point in 1991, Laettner, Hurley and Hill didn't look like the Laettner, Hurley and Hill we remember. Nor at this point in 2010 did the three Ss appear to be the stone-cold winners they became.


The Clemson beatdown in 08-09 certainly exploited Duke's gaping weakness in a hostile environment that year. Also, Duke beat Kansas last year in a neutral site while getting flattened by the Buckeyes on the road. Losses like this are (unfortunately) telling of a team's ceiling. Kelly or not, where was the TENACITY? Where was the inspiration???? Where was that confidence we had, beating a #3, 2, AND 4????

Going back to 1991, that team got clobbered by 17 points at UVa. The team went 2-4 against top 10 teams, and the only two wins were arch-rival games against UNC. They got destroyed by 22 in the ACC championship game. Gaping weakness, right? Limited ceiling, right? Where was the tenacity? Where was the inspiration? I don't know, but they seemed to find it sometime before they won the national championship.


Actually, I mentioned it in the in-game thread. :)

Yeah, I don't read the in-game once the game starts. That's why I qualified my statement to say nobody had mentioned it in this thread.

[Hermy-own]

Well, part of Duke's traditional success in the NCAA tourney has come from facing a challenging ACC schedule. In recent years, the average ACC team has been a bit weaker, perhaps resulting in the team being surprised in the tournament.

At least that's one less thing to worry about!

[Kedsy]

But I do need to see some fight and fire in the next few games before I feel good about our long term prospects this year.

Not meaning to single you out, but why do people on this board make such sweeping generalizations based on one game?

It happens pretty much every time we lose and certainly when we lose big or to a lesser team. Frankly, it happens the other way when we win big or win against a good team, with people thinking that means we're a lock for the Final Four. But either way, it's ridiculous. Talk about a minimal sample size. Why not take it to extremes and judge the team's long term prospects based on a single possession? Whoa, Seth shot an airball, we're never going to score again!

Obviously a whole game is a lot more data points than a single possession, but in the large scheme of things my single possession example is almost as silly as basing opinions on one game. It's not nearly enough to make any statements about the team's full body of work, past or future. The idea that a game can "expose" a team's weaknesses is way overused. All this game really showed is that our team as currently constituted without Ryan Kelly was unable to win a road game against one of the top three teams in the ACC. It didn't even show that we wouldn't win there if we played again tomorrow (although obviously it also didn't show that we would). It doesn't say anything at all about whether we'll win or not against Maryland or against UNC, any more than any other single game did.

[rocketeli]

That was hard to watch and actually I didn't for much of the second half. Honestly it would not have surprised me in any way if either team won and if you asked me, I would have given the edge to Miami--but not by so much.
Thoughts:
I expected little scoring from Seth Curry--anytime a 6'5" athletic guard is on him all night his output will be limited. What you hope for there is to occupy and tire out a good player for the other team. It's funny, probably no one things Curry is much of an NBA prospect, but he might actually be as good or better a player than his famous brother--although Davidson played some tough opponents, the bulk of their games were against the southern conference.
Imagine how many Seth could score there! When Davidson did play the big boys, Curry the 1st death with it by canning threes fro 35 ft out--one thing we haven't seen Seth do--should he be given the green light to do so.

The new game plan seemed to be to have Mason pass fast out of the collapsing defense to a player who was standing a pre-designated spot (so like a quarterback he could throw to the spot, not have to wait and think about it). We didn't hit any of those subsequent shots. Unfamilarity? Bad Luck? Stalled the offense? I don't know, but at least for one game it didn't work. Kelly's no Dirk or Lebron, but before he was injured he was doing a good job of making teams pay for collapsing on Mason. No one else has been able to do this.

Sometimes everything goes right for one team and everything goes wrong for another. Think of the UNC and Maryland games where we ran them out of gym.

I agree with the posters who point out that talking of "intensity" or "heart" etc is a often a lazy, sport yak way to write a column or whatever when you don't know anything about a game. One attitude thing I have noticed (and surely opposing coaches have too) is this team lets contact bother them. They're always pouting or rolling their eyes at the ref when they feel they get mugged with no call. Sometimes they're right, they did get mugged with no call, especially Mason--I'm not sure sometimes what you have to do get called for a foul on him these days--may grab him by the hair, knee him in the groin and punch him in the face, in front of the ref--and even then I'm not sure--but they have to accept it as part of the game and just run back down court.

In many ways I'd rather see us struggle and grow now then be stronger in March, than the other way round. Opposing teams don't have to scout Duke--they just have to turn on their TVs -so developing a few new options and game plans can only help in the long run.

[Durham Thunder]

I've been getting some texts from friends about a late night practice that Duke held last night after the game. Anyone hear anything about it or know anything? I can't come up with anything concrete, and I don't want to start rumors or anything, but I'm interested to hear what kind of practice they had and how it went over with the team. Perhaps players were tweeting about it? Can anyone confirm?

If not, mods, feel free to delete.

In response to an earlier post, I found this:

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2013/01/24/duke-may-have-committed-an-ncaa-violation-by-practicing-from-130-am-445-this-morning-after-the-miami-loss/

There's a bunch of other outlets reporting the same thing, so something seems to be there.

[davekay1971]

Should we just cancel the rest of the games then?



Well, at this point in 1991, Laettner, Hurley and Hill didn't look like the Laettner, Hurley and Hill we remember. Nor at this point in 2010 did the three Ss appear to be the stone-cold winners they became.

.


C'mon, Kedsy, there's no history like revisionist history! Please don't, whatever you do, reread the post-game threads after the NCSU and Georgetown losses in the 2010 season. We wouldn't want to be reminded that a significant percentage of the board had written off that team as limited, with a ceiling of Sweet 16, tops, and that the Duke program, as a whole, was in the terminal swoon of K's twilight years...

That game last night was ugly. There was nothing good to be taken out of it...except that it was one game, our second loss of the season, and means little or nothing in terms of post-season goals. It does make winning the mythical and meaningless unbalanced-schedule-regular-season-best-record title harder. But who cares, since it's a mythical and meaningless title anyway that ought to be taken out behind Cameron and shot until the ACC balances the schedules (which will never happen, so bury it in the desert like Pesci in Casino and move on).

[NiceMarmot]

Just found this link too: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2013/01/24/reports-that-duke-practiced-late-last-night-upon-arrival-from-miami-disputed/

Wouldn't Bomani Jones love for it to be true (violations and all).

[Durham Thunder]

Just found this link too: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2013/01/24/reports-that-duke-practiced-late-last-night-upon-arrival-from-miami-disputed/

Some are saying if it's player-led and the coaches weren't involved, it wouldn't be.

[jipops]

"Drastically changes?" That's a little bit dramatic.


I guess K was being too dramatic in the post-game then.

[superdave]

During the second half last night, we started picking Miami up full court. I was glad to see it. Dont ever lay down for an opponent.

I can recall other games that went horribly wrong, and in every one Coach K continued coaching, kept tweaking lineups and strategy and looked to at least make the loss respectable.

Duke was down 20 to Miami in 2008 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1394031). They went on a 56-37 spurt over the final 12 minutes and lost by 1. Duke pretty much decided to get into the paint on every offensive possesion and scored a lot of points by turning it into a track meet. Too bad Miami's guards would not let us play that way last night.

In 2009 vs. Miami Duke was down 16 in the 2nd and came back and won (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3664907). Paulus played big minutes for the first time in a while and Duke ground out a win in OT. I remember this game specificaly because Coach K seemed to want it really bad.

In 2010 Georgetown jumped on Duke early, then extended their lead to 23 late in the 2nd half (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300300046). Georgetown took their foot off the gas, Duke never did, taking a 23 point deficit with 4 minutes down to 12 at the buzzer. I would not exactly call it a moral victory, but it was an indication that Coach K will keep his guys swinging until the bitter end.

In 1998 UNC roared out to a huge lead late in the 1st half (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/theres-always-next-time-duke-falls-97-73-heartbreaker) and controlled the game. Duke chipped away and cut it to 4, only to go on and lose big. This game felt a lot like the Miami game last night. Nothing went our way but the team grew up some because of it, mainly because their coach did not let them quit.

Perhaps this is a good lesson for this particular Duke team. Without those gut checks, would the teams mentioned above have fought as hard in practice or been humble enough to know they HAVE to get better? I dont know, but those games were character building games for those teams when you look back on it.

The 2010 team went on to win a title. The 1998 team beat Unc a few weeks later and was a title contender quickly thereafter. Stayed tuned. The end result of last night is not yet known.

[ChillinDuke]

I CTRL+F'd through the thread but didn't see this anywhere. A friend just messaged me at work...

"According to the Dan Patrick Show...

duke Charter landed in derm @ 12:52 AM, started practice @ 1:30 AM, ended practice @ 4:45 AM."

Anyone else see this? I think it's a tweet, but since I don't really understand Twitter I don't have a link.

- Chillin

[CDu]

I CTRL+F'd through the thread but didn't see this anywhere. A friend just messaged me at work...

"According to the Dan Patrick Show...

duke Charter landed in derm @ 12:52 AM, started practice @ 1:30 AM, ended practice @ 4:45 AM."

Anyone else see this? I think it's a tweet, but since I don't really understand Twitter I don't have a link.

- Chillin

Read a bit further up in the thread. It's been discussed, and this was a joke on the Dan Patrick Show. I.e., there wasn't actually a late-night practice (which would be an NCAA violation).

[superdave]

Just found this link too: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2013/01/24/reports-that-duke-practiced-late-last-night-upon-arrival-from-miami-disputed/


I CTRL+F'd through the thread but didn't see this anywhere. A friend just messaged me at work...

"According to the Dan Patrick Show...

duke Charter landed in derm @ 12:52 AM, started practice @ 1:30 AM, ended practice @ 4:45 AM."

Anyone else see this? I think it's a tweet, but since I don't really understand Twitter I don't have a link.

- Chillin

Read the link above. Not true.

Super "Snopes" Dave

[CDu]

I guess K was being too dramatic in the post-game then.

Does anyone have a link to his post-game press conference? Or a link to the transcript of said presser? I'd love to read his comments.

[mkirsh]

One other point, and not sure where to post it so I will post it here. It is REALLY hard to win on the road in the ACC this year. Road teams are 9-21 so far:

Miami 3-0
State 1-2
Duke 0-2
UNC 1-1
Md 0-2
Wake 0-3
UVA 0-2
VPI 1-1
FSU 2-1
Clemson 0-2
BC 1-2
GTech 0-3

So unlikely for Miami or anyone else to win out - meaning we will likely be able to "control our own destiny" if we get the ship righted

[CDu]

One other point, and not sure where to post it so I will post it here. It is REALLY hard to win on the road in the ACC this year. Road teams are 9-21 so far:

Miami 3-0
State 1-2
Duke 0-2
UNC 1-1
Md 0-2
Wake 0-3
UVA 0-2
VPI 1-1
FSU 2-1
Clemson 0-2
BC 1-2
GTech 0-3

So unlikely for Miami or anyone else to win out - meaning we will likely be able to "control our own destiny" if we get the ship righted

We may be able to again control our own regular season destiny, but only if Miami falters AND we don't falter. No reason to assume that a now healthy Miami (undefeated this season when they've had both Johnson and Scott) is any more likely to falter than us without Kelly.

[peterjswift]

Anyone feel bad for Maryland on Saturday?

[freshmanjs]

Anyone feel bad for Maryland on Saturday?

no, not particularly. i'll be cheering my I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. off for duke, but i think MD has a decent shot to win that game.

[CDu]

Anyone feel bad for Maryland on Saturday?

I sure hope we give them a royal beatdown.

That being said, Maryland is BIG and physical. They won't make life easy for us offensively. On the other end, though, they're really bad.

I hope we drop them by 25-30 points.

[capitolhill]

Anyone feel bad for Maryland on Saturday?

Not really.

While MD is having scoring issues, they actually play defense quite well. I don't think they will be rolling over.

[peterjswift]

I sure hope we give them a royal beatdown.

That being said, Maryland is BIG and physical. They won't make life easy for us offensively. On the other end, though, they're really bad.

I hope we drop them by 25-30 points.

I would relish every minute of a blowout against MD. March 2nd should be interesting too. I've gotten way too many emails with the youtube video of Miami slapping the floor. The Crazies will not forget that...

I can't imagine MD's players are relishing the thought of coming into this game after that kind of blowout. If the heart/effort/mental edge what-have-you wasn't there before, I think Saturday will really show what this team has. A blowout is one thing, but responding to it is probably far more telling about the quality and abilities of this team. I can't wait.

(I cut cable this year but I somehow still get CBS in HD (via the cable that was supposedly "disconnected?"), so I circled January 26th a long time ago since I'll actually be able to watch this game).

[ChrisP]

Anyone feel bad for Maryland on Saturday?

Umm...no. Never. After all the c**p they used to talk about JJ and his family and after Boozer's mom getting hit in the head with a water bottle. No, no and NO!!! :D

[wk2109]

I guess K was being too dramatic in the post-game then.

I didn't hear the post-game, so I'll take your word for it that K said that. But did he say it in the same context as you did (i.e. Duke "could be staring at a conference record that isn't exactly #1 seed worthy")? Not that it makes a huge difference, but he was probably talking more about certain players needing to change their roles to fill in for Ryan's absence. I doubt he was extrapolating Duke's current lack of road success to an 0-9 ACC road record (which is what I thought you were doing in the midst of all the Chicken Littles on this board -- if you weren't, then my apologies).

Regarding a #1 seed, let's not forget that last year, Carolina entered the conference schedule with 2 losses, got destroyed by 33 at FSU, didn't win the ACC tournament, and still got a #1 seed. If Duke is able to win the ACC regular season or tournament, the team will definitely be in the mix for a #1 seed.


One other point, and not sure where to post it so I will post it here. It is REALLY hard to win on the road in the ACC this year. Road teams are 9-21 so far:

Miami 3-0
State 1-2
Duke 0-2
UNC 1-1
Md 0-2
Wake 0-3
UVA 0-2
VPI 1-1
FSU 2-1
Clemson 0-2
BC 1-2
GTech 0-3

So unlikely for Miami or anyone else to win out - meaning we will likely be able to "control our own destiny" if we get the ship righted

I agree. Teams have 13-14 ACC games remaining -- it's a little early to be speculating about the regular season title. Miami is 3-0 on the road, but 2 of those wins have come against BC and GT, arguably the 2 worst teams in the ACC. Duke's 2 road losses have come against probably the 2 best teams (besides Duke) in the ACC. It's very possible for Duke to make up a 2 game deficit with 13 games remaining, especially with head-to-head matchups in Cameron remaining against Miami AND NC State.

[wilko]

Blow-outs of anybody are premature at this point.

I always want Duke to win in such overwhelming impressive fashion that it crushes the opposing teams will to live. I want them to reevaluate their lives, regret poor decision and change religion. That desired outcome of a game will never change for me.

But right now we need a W period.

[CDu]

I guess K was being too dramatic in the post-game then.

I'll repeat my question to all as it may get lost on the previous page: does anyone have a video or transcript link of Coach K's post-game presser?

[slower]

I can't imagine MD's players are relishing the thought of coming into this game after that kind of blowout.

OTOH, maybe they're looking forward to it EVEN MORE. I doubt that they're quaking in their boots, if that's what you're implying. Maybe they're now thinking they can do the same thing to us. Some of you folks just don't get that this team doesn't scare anybody.

[mapei]

I must say one thing that gets taken for granted: thank your deity for DBR. After a loss like this, I need to be among like-minded souls and really appreciate that DBR maintains a classy, thoughtful, and fun place to hang out.

[capitolhill]

OTOH, maybe they're looking forward to it EVEN MORE. I doubt that they're quaking in their boots, if that's what you're implying. Maybe they're now thinking they can do the same thing to us. Some of you folks just don't get that this team doesn't scare anybody.

I also think that players these days just aren't in awe of particular teams like they were, say, in the 90's. Back when I went to UMD, the dominant teams were much more dominant. Just seeing the UNC or Duke uniform on the floor was a little intimidating (my most hated player - Dante Calabria...not sure why). Nowadays, with parity, and the general watering-down of D1 basketball, not to mention the AAU experience of modern players, the intimidation factor isn't as great.

All of that being said, expect MD to play good defense, but the shooting and turnover problems will persist. K has a way of rebounding after a loss, but this was a particularly spectacular loss so we'll see what happens.

[oldnavy]

Not meaning to single you out, but why do people on this board make such sweeping generalizations based on one game?

It happens pretty much every time we lose and certainly when we lose big or to a lesser team. Frankly, it happens the other way when we win big or win against a good team, with people thinking that means we're a lock for the Final Four. But either way, it's ridiculous. Talk about a minimal sample size. Why not take it to extremes and judge the team's long term prospects based on a single possession? Whoa, Seth shot an airball, we're never going to score again!

Obviously a whole game is a lot more data points than a single possession, but in the large scheme of things my single possession example is almost as silly as basing opinions on one game. It's not nearly enough to make any statements about the team's full body of work, past or future. The idea that a game can "expose" a team's weaknesses is way overused. All this game really showed is that our team as currently constituted without Ryan Kelly was unable to win a road game against one of the top three teams in the ACC. It didn't even show that we wouldn't win there if we played again tomorrow (although obviously it also didn't show that we would). It doesn't say anything at all about whether we'll win or not against Maryland or against UNC, any more than any other single game did.

No offense taken, you can feel free to single me out if you like. I need to clarify I suppose. I am not making a generalization from this one game, although this game is the impetus for my post.

I have noticed that for several games now we have not been playing at the same level we began the season at. Early on, we were playing awesome ball. YES, YES I know how much RK means to us, of course we miss what he brings. We miss it A LOT!

But RK is not part of the team right now, and this is the team I am talking about.

I am speaking about the attitude I see on the court. I think Mason (as good as he has been) plays weak at times. He needs to be more of a consistent powerful player. I am sure that is what K thinks as well given his enthusiastic embrace when Mason took the ball strong to the basket against GT in the early part of the second half.

Look, we were down one to GT at the half at home! GT is a bad team but they were punking us for a half. In contrast UNC lead GT by 15 or so at half last night. This worries me. We do not seem to bring a killer instinct to the game for 40 minutes. I don't know why? I am sure the kids want to win, but I just don't see the chip on their shoulder.

Again, people ask why does TT get so much PT? Well, he is one mean mofo and has the swag. You know K loves that and wants the rest of the team to play with that.

This issue was discussed in another thread about Seth Curry. Jay Williams mentioned it, heck come to think of it, I started the thread. My initial thoughts were that he was off base calling Seth out for comments about not being able to blow everyone out, but now I am reconsidering my position. Maybe our senior leaders don't have that step on your throat mentality.

I hope to heavens I am dead wrong, but I am just calling it like I see it a

Yes, last night was one game, but this has been slowly building and Miami was just the first time we have gotten steam rolled. I hope it is the last, but for it to be, we need the boys on the team to become men (essentially what K said in the John Roth radio post game).

I am not Chicken Little ('a corn fell from the sky'... to quote Tyler Hansborugh - funny stuff if you haven't heard that). I honestly believe that we can and will turn it around, but I need to see it.

How we play UofM will be very telling. This is one time I believe we need to come out and put up a double didget lead in the first 10 minutes of the game.

[gumbomoop]

I also think that players these days just aren't in awe of particular teams like they were, say, in the 90's.

Nor, as someone posted on some other thread, are opposing players as likely to be intimidated by CIS and the Crazies. Maybe I'm wrong about this - and I definitely favor the Crazies continuing to be crazy loud and creative - but I think many players actually like coming to CIS. It's a fun place to play, raucous atmosphere, decent chance to thumb your nose at the famous Crazies, and beat the despised Devils on their beloved K-court.

I guess some get rattled, but others seem to be having fun and thinking they're going to win.

[moonpie23]

a 1pt hard fought win might do just as much for confidence as a blowout.......


success and failure are both imposters...

[Mhgraham]

More minutes for Murphy. Murphy is the younger Kelly with better ability to drive and take contact. I know we give up a few inches, but I think he needs to play more minutes (if not start). He resembles the "stretch forward" like Kelly. He has the outside shot and can post up if needed. I am not saying he will make his money by posting people up and scoring over them but he can do it. With Murphy in the game, the defense is stretched like it was with Kelly. Kadji or Gamble has to come out to defend the 3 which opens the driving/passing lanes much wider. This is exactly what happens when Kelly plays. I am not by any means discounting Jefferson's play (especially his defense), but Murphy gives the added three point dimension that Jefferson lacks. Regardless, the freshman (Murph, Jeff, and Sheed) came to play last night. There confidence will continue to build. I guess my only question is: Did Curry, Cook, Thornton, and Plumlee (combined 6 for 44) leave their skills in Durham? I could not believe the play from our upperclassmen.

[CDu]

Nor, as someone posted on some other thread, are opposing players as likely to be intimidated by CIS and the Crazies. Maybe I'm wrong about this - and I definitely favor the Crazies continuing to be crazy loud and creative - but I think many players actually like coming to CIS. It's a fun place to play, raucous atmosphere, decent chance to thumb your nose at the famous Crazies, and beat the despised Devils on their beloved K-court.

I guess some get rattled, but others seem to be having fun and thinking they're going to win.

I was one of the ones who said this. I definitely don't think there's an intimidation factor with the Crazies anymore. I think players have seen more hostile environments and they think it's loud but fun. Those feelings are buoyed a bit by a recent commentator (a former ACC player) who reiterated those thoughts. Some other places made you feel intimidated/threatened. Cameron was a great atmosphere, but it was more fun than intimidating.

[CDu]

More minutes for Murphy. Murphy is the younger Kelly with better ability to drive and take contact. I know we give up a few inches, but I think he needs to play more minutes (if not start). He resembles the "stretch forward" like Kelly. He has the outside shot and can post up if needed. I am not saying he will make his money by posting people up and scoring over them but he can do it. With Murphy in the game, the defense is stretched like it was with Kelly. Kadji or Gamble has to come out to defend the 3 which opens the driving/passing lanes much wider. This is exactly what happens when Kelly plays. I am not by any means discounting Jefferson's play (especially his defense), but Murphy gives the added three point dimension that Jefferson lacks. Regardless, the freshman (Murph, Jeff, and Sheed) came to play last night. There confidence will continue to build. I guess my only question is: Did Curry, Cook, Thornton, and Plumlee (combined 6 for 44) leave their skills in Durham? I could not believe the play from our upperclassmen.

I don't think Murphy is much like Kelly at all. Kelly is a stretch-4, Murphy is a pure 3. He doesn't stretch the floor any more than Sulaimon or Curry, and those are the guys for whom he was subbing.

If you're suggesting playing Murphy at the 4, I think that's a bad idea. I think Murphy would get exposed (even more than Hairston and Jefferson) trying to guard an opposing PF.

[oldnavy]

Nor, as someone posted on some other thread, are opposing players as likely to be intimidated by CIS and the Crazies. Maybe I'm wrong about this - and I definitely favor the Crazies continuing to be crazy loud and creative - but I think many players actually like coming to CIS. It's a fun place to play, raucous atmosphere, decent chance to thumb your nose at the famous Crazies, and beat the despised Devils on their beloved K-court.

I guess some get rattled, but others seem to be having fun and thinking they're going to win.

Honestly I believe that not so long ago people were intimidated by Duke for good reason. Not so much anymore and again for good reason. First, a lot of these players know each other now via the AAU circut, so they know who they are playing against and are usually not in awe. Second, Duke like everyone else is facing tougher and better teams. The amount of talent in College BB is amazing. It used to be the Blue Bloods got the cream of the crop, and to some extent that is still the case, however, there is a lot more cream these days. The parity is stronger now than ever. Thirdly, Cameron has been hyped to death on ESPN. Even if you are playing there for the first time, surely it is not the first time you have seen or heard about it. It is no longer an unknown, kids know what to expect and are prepared for it. And one last factor I will mention is that I believe at times Duke (we) get cocky. It is a natural response given our success, but we need to guard against it and realize that Duke on the jersey only means that we are going to get the very best shot from teams, not that they are going to cower.

[Lennies]

saying "next play"....he's saying "i won't forget this game for a season and you guys better not either."..they looked like they all had mono,
absolutely no energy...like they didn't want to be there....my goodness...Plumlee has got to learn how to move back to the right when he's making that move to the center from the left side...just plant your left foot and move back to the right to the basket

Both teams should get drug tested.

[bedeviled]

A few thoughts I haven’t seen yet:
Thinking back to the beginning of the game, two things struck me. One, Rasheed’s body language suggested he was “pressing,” maybe trying to hard or amped up too much. Two, we lacked discipline. Each possession, I honestly kept thinking "we are about to run them out of the gym, we just need to be focused this play." Yet, each possession left me disappointed…and then the bottom fell out. While associating the outcome with these observations is a bit revisionist, they did resonate enough to be remembered.

I agree with previous posters that we got flustered, then frustrated, and our offense impacted our defense. Yet, while we lost our disciplined basketball play, I am impressed that our players did not lose their composure as basketball players. While fans were busy breaking chairs and yelling at spouses, the Duke team largely refrained from chippy and dangerous play. I’m certain I would have been thrown out of the game..and possibly face criminal charges. Our guys continued to play basketball…just not that well! :D It would have been exceedingly easy to lose composure given the way UMiami and its fans were enlivened. (Note: I could bear the commentators and fans, but I had to close the DBR in-game thread. It’s comical how fans could throw in the towel so quickly and then complain about the team).

I admit my mind kind of went to a better place while my eyes watched the remainder of the game. But, thinking about it post facto, it seems odd that K went to Alex and Amile…isn’t this essentially focusing on getting some kind of offensive production at detriment to defense? Isn’t that the primary party-line on the starters vs subs? It’s surely one approach, but I would have expected K to mandate defense before all else. I certainly would have loved more help D from the 4 on Miami’s forays to the basket (I mean, Kadji got his points anyway, right?). K did seem to play with lineups more than I would have anticipated. Perhaps he, too, was more flustered than usual.

I wasn’t surprised by Curry’s performance. Previous threads have looked at his FG% and points with respect to games played with short turn-around. Personally, I have always seen a greater connection between his performance and the “bigness” of the game (In my world, I include things like Davidson being a homecoming and his having just been named captain as “big”). To me, this better explains the in-season tournaments, end-of-season tournaments, and OSU games. Although it’s my own theory, I haven’t yet decided why it happens that way – psychological, better-skilled opponents, taller-quicker opponents. Anyway, I’m not torn up about Seth's output last night. Unfortunately, I think this game was enough to do real detriment to his NBA chances.

Likewise, I’m not disappointed in Mason. I thought he battled hard, though clearly disheartened and not his best performance by any means. Again, my personal expectations might be below other posters’. I did lots and lots of stats on Mason the first half of the season, and his performance has been reasonably akin to last years’. His performance has appeared to decline in the second half of the year for the past couple years. So, again, I wasn’t surprised or disappointed that he couldn’t defeat Miami single-handedly.

I do wish I had seen more out of Quinn. As he seems to get a charge from emotional battles, I would think this game would have been in his wheel-house. Alas, I think Quinn got demolished.

The question of leadership has been interesting to me all season long. I make a connection between leadership and discipline. As I stated above, I’m surprised K went down the bench to the more erratic but offensively productive (at least this game) players. I'm not surprised only because of effect on defense but also due to effect on leadership and discipline within the team. Furthermore, it seems like K has been providing more leadership from the coach's box than in many years (see: intentionally emotionally charging team via mauling Mason), but this move also, to me, appears to diminish K's own leadership by changing his style and expectations away from defense and discipline. I'm confused.

[mkirsh]

But, thinking about it post facto, it seems odd that K went to Alex and Amile…isn’t this essentially focusing on getting some kind of offensive production at detriment to defense? Isn’t that the primary party-line on the starters vs subs? It’s surely one approach, but I would have expected K to mandate defense before all else. I certainly would have loved more help D from the 4 on Miami’s forays to the basket (I mean, Kadji got his points anyway, right?). K did seem to play with lineups more than I would have anticipated. Perhaps he, too, was more flustered than usual.


The question of leadership has been interesting to me all season long. I make a connection between leadership and discipline. As I stated above, I’m surprised K went down the bench to the more erratic but offensively productive (at least this game) players. I'm not surprised only because of effect on defense but also due to effect on leadership and discipline within the team. Furthermore, it seems like K has been providing more leadership from the coach's box than in many years (see: intentionally emotionally charging team via mauling Mason), but this move also, to me, appears to diminish K's own leadership by changing his style and expectations away from defense and discipline. I'm confused.


I'm pretty sure that after about 5 minutes into the second half K was looking for effort and toughness above all else last night, and stuck with those who he thought brought those the most rather than practice play, leadership, defense, shooting, etc.

[Durham Thunder]

I must say one thing that gets taken for granted: thank your deity for DBR. After a loss like this, I need to be among like-minded souls and really appreciate that DBR maintains a classy, thoughtful, and fun place to hang out.

I agree with that.

Talking about last night's monstrosity has upped my blood pressure considerably, but in the end it's nice to be able to rage and freak about this in a healthy way.

[bedeviled]

I'm pretty sure that after about 5 minutes into the second half K was looking for effort and toughness above all else last nightI lost my internet connection for the first part of the second half. Thanks for the reply; sorry you had to witness it.

[TruBlu]

Both teams should get drug tested.

I woke up this morning (somewhat of a surprise every time I do, after a game like this), fully expecting to read a report that the entire team had eaten a bad meal of Florida sushi, or that Miami was being investigated for putting liquid Valium in our Gatorade.

It seemed that we were playing slow and flat-footed. It didn't look like we were elevating much on our jump shots or layups. Even on Miami's free throws, where they had no one one the line to rebound, we had trouble. Our guys with inside position seemed to rarely get the rebound, and it wasn't totally because of it being a rim-clanger.

On the positive side, I thought Amile, Rasheed, and Alex showed some fight. Maybe our freshmen can lead by example.

Beat the Terps!

[Monmouth77]

I wasn’t surprised by Curry’s performance. Previous threads have looked at his FG% and points with respect to games played with short turn-around. Personally, I have always seen a greater connection between his performance and the “bigness” of the game (In my world, I include things like Davidson being a homecoming and his having just been named captain as “big”). To me, this better explains the in-season tournaments, end-of-season tournaments, and OSU games. Although it’s my own theory, I haven’t yet decided why it happens that way – psychological, better-skilled opponents, taller-quicker opponents. Anyway, I’m not torn up about Seth's output last night. Unfortunately, I think this game was enough to do real detriment to his NBA chances.



I cannot agree that Seth wilts in big games. In fact, I'd argue his signature game as a Blue Devil was his near-singlehanded effort to bring us back during the second half of our home game against Carolina in 2011. That was a huge game and a huge performance.

I just think he matches up badly against bigger guards, especially with his ailing ankle and shins. I think that's what we were seeing last night.

[DukieinSoCal]

I don't think Murphy is much like Kelly at all. Kelly is a stretch-4, Murphy is a pure 3. He doesn't stretch the floor any more than Sulaimon or Curry, and those are the guys for whom he was subbing.

If you're suggesting playing Murphy at the 4, I think that's a bad idea. I think Murphy would get exposed (even more than Hairston and Jefferson) trying to guard an opposing PF.

I kind of like the idea of trying Murphy more at the 4. He's quicker than Hairston and more experienced than Jefferson. It's not like we've been defending PFs all that well so it's probably a wash on defense. On offense, we can space the floor like we did with Ryan and open up room for Mason to work while adding another shooter. He's clearly way more polished and skilled on offense than Josh and Amile. Plus, the team will be playing a style more similar to what we'll be playing once Ryan returns, making the transition easier(hopefuly).

[bedeviled]

I just think [Seth] matches up badly against bigger guards, especially with his ailing ankle and shins. I think that's what we were seeing last night.I don't disagree. I haven't made up my mind, partly because I'm not interested in doing the legwork to look at the history of specific players on opposing teams. But, it seems reasonable that better teams have better players, making it tougher to play exceptionally well. That being said, I, personally, try to steer clear of speculations attributing play to injury. It is too tempting, unconsciously, for players (let alone fans) to attribute their performance to spurious factors (injury, game plan, crowd, etc). Plus, it's cyclical, as bad play leads to more focus on the perceived problems which leads to further bad play. It gets too convoluted and misleading, and _I think is a disservice to performance_. I'd rather just take things on face-value and go from there.

**Maybe I should add that I think it is probably much harder for an elite college or pro athlete to accomplish misattribution to injury than it is for athletes under less intense media scrutiny. However, signs of it are still fairly commonplace across high-level sports. For our immediate example, it is discouraging to me that commentators have made mention of Seth grimacing after bad plays while showing no signs of injury after positive plays. I prefer the injury not be discussed at all, but it seems to come up in every "analysis" comment in games, sports-entertainment news, chatrooms.

[DukieinSoCal]

I'm getting a similar feeling like last year when most of us knew that the team was somewhat limited athletically and defensively with Austin as the focal point of the team. It see some similarities with Seth this year in that he can be explosive offensively at times but cannot consistently defend the perimeter. I think this year's team has a higher ceiling and is more athletic but we really need Ryan to come back healthy to have a realistic chance at a Final Four/Championship run. With Ryan, we seem to have the right pieces and chemistry to overcome our flaws, which are being painfully exposed right now.


I don't disagree. I haven't made up my mind, partly because I'm not interested in doing the legwork to look at the history of specific players on opposing teams. But, it seems reasonable that better teams have better players, making it tougher to play exceptionally well. That being said, I, personally, try to steer clear of speculations attributing play to injury. It is too tempting, unconsciously, for players (let alone fans) to attribute their performance to spurious factors (injury, game plan, crowd, etc). Plus, it's cyclical, as bad play leads to more focus on the perceived problems which leads to further bad play. It gets too convoluted and misleading, and _I think is a disservice to performance_. I'd rather just take things on face-value and go from there.

**Maybe I should add that I think it is probably much harder for an elite college or pro athlete to accomplish misattribution to injury than it is for athletes under less intense media scrutiny. However, signs of it are still fairly commonplace across high-level sports. For our immediate example, it is discouraging to me that commentators have made mention of Seth grimacing after bad plays while showing no signs of injury after positive plays. I prefer the injury not be discussed at all, but it seems to come up in every "analysis" comment in games, sports-entertainment news, chatrooms.

[tommy]

Sorry if I repeat anything already said. I waded through most of this thread, but not all of it. Here are my thoughts.

First of all, the loss had nothing to do with Miami coming out more intense or more focused than Duke. Duke led this game not just in the first minute or two, but at the ten minute mark of the first half. We were plenty intense and focused at the outset. It's just that we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

And that was really the key issue. Basketball is such a confidence and momentum game, especially in college. Miss a few shots and the ball all of a sudden doesn't feel right coming out of your hand and you miss again. The other team gets a couple of hoops and they're feeling strong. The basket starts to look very small for one team and very large for the other. Crowd emotion adds fuel of course. And you end up with a snowball effect. If I can find the time tonight, I may go back and torture myself and take a look at the open shots we missed in the first half, but there were so many, by pretty much all the guys, and once they start to clang, it's hard to arrest that. It's why when guys are going bad, the advice is to "get an easy one" just so you'll get the psychological benefit of feeling the ball come off your hand properly and go through the basket just as you planned. Do that once or twice and all of a sudden the longer shots start to fall too. Just didn't happen last night.

Next. Seth's bad night was absolutely related to Scott's tough defense. Scott was bumping him around every screen and was in his shirt a lot. Seth could barely put two dribbles together without having to fend Scott off, and he had very few if any clean looks at the basket. Everything was pressured.

Quinn Cook not only couldn't handle Larkin's penetration, but he also couldn't beat his man off the dribble. Cook has got to be able to penetrate, not only to get his own shot in the lane, but more importantly in order to open up clean jumpshots for his teammates when help comes. He couldn't penetrate. We were left to that 3-man handoff game on the perimeter to try to gain an advantage and turn a corner, but their defenders were too quick and too rangy for that.

But as others have stated, the big disappointment was Mason Plumlee. He looks nothing like the player from the first few weeks of the year. He wasn't going up against Nerlens Noel or even a Richard Howell last night. Julian Gamble was a fill-in for Reggie Johnson. Not even really a starter for them, and Mason simply did not display the ability to get off very many quality, in rhythm shots. He appears to be shying away from contact rather than taking the ball up and through his man like he was earlier in the year. He's way too dependent on the jump hook -- it appears to be the only move he has any confidence in now. He's got to diversify with a drop step or a hook over the other shoulder. When he gets it real close in, he has to go up strong and dunk it. He's not only taller or as tall as every opponent he faces, but he also can outjump all of them. They should not be blocking his shot or deterring him from going up. And the free throw shooting is essentially the same as it was last year. The early season momentum appears to be gone there too.

I hate to say it folks, but let's just drop all the National Player of the Year talk for Mason. He's clearly out of that conversation, and he should be. Just worry about the next game, that's all.

Last thing: many are saying that the big problem that the loss of Ryan results in (and I don't disagree) is that our spacing is reduced and therefore there's less room for Mason to work. OK fine. That's not going to change with Amile or Josh playing the 4. If one believes that Mason is really being hurt by not having a shooter at the 4, that is an argument for Murphy at the 4. I know he hasn't played much at that position, but if we're going to look for some changes, some tweaks, or whatever you want to call them, that's one to consider. Murphy at the 4.

[DukieinSoCal]

I totally agree with this post. Despite all the concerns about slow starts the past few games, we actually started well and held the lead for a while. In the first 10 minutes of the game, we had a lot of good open looks and just couldn't knock them down.

And all the criticism about the defense giving up so many dunks and layups is a bit off base in my opinion because once we got down big, we had to pressure and take chances on defense, opening up a lot of 2 on 1 breaks. If the game was close and we just played our normal defense, I doubt there would have been too many dunks/layups. For the most part, I don't think our kids lacked effort or desire. Everything just seemed to snowball yesterday.

Next play!


Sorry if I repeat anything already said. I waded through most of this thread, but not all of it. Here are my thoughts.

First of all, the loss had nothing to do with Miami coming out more intense or more focused than Duke. Duke led this game not just in the first minute or two, but at the ten minute mark of the first half. We were plenty intense and focused at the outset. It's just that we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

And that was really the key issue. Basketball is such a confidence and momentum game, especially in college. Miss a few shots and the ball all of a sudden doesn't feel right coming out of your hand and you miss again. The other team gets a couple of hoops and they're feeling strong. The basket starts to look very small for one team and very large for the other. Crowd emotion adds fuel of course. And you end up with a snowball effect. If I can find the time tonight, I may go back and torture myself and take a look at the open shots we missed in the first half, but there were so many, by pretty much all the guys, and once they start to clang, it's hard to arrest that. It's why when guys are going bad, the advice is to "get an easy one" just so you'll get the psychological benefit of feeling the ball come off your hand properly and go through the basket just as you planned. Do that once or twice and all of a sudden the longer shots start to fall too. Just didn't happen last night.

Next. Seth's bad night was absolutely related to Scott's tough defense. Scott was bumping him around every screen and was in his shirt a lot. Seth could barely put two dribbles together without having to fend Scott off, and he had very few if any clean looks at the basket. Everything was pressured.

Quinn Cook not only couldn't handle Larkin's penetration, but he also couldn't beat his man off the dribble. Cook has got to be able to penetrate, not only to get his own shot in the lane, but more importantly in order to open up clean jumpshots for his teammates when help comes. He couldn't penetrate. We were left to that 3-man handoff game on the perimeter to try to gain an advantage and turn a corner, but their defenders were too quick and too rangy for that.

But as others have stated, the big disappointment was Mason Plumlee. He looks nothing like the player from the first few weeks of the year. He wasn't going up against Nerlens Noel or even a Richard Howell last night. Julian Gamble was a fill-in for Reggie Johnson. Not even really a starter for them, and Mason simply did not display the ability to get off very many quality, in rhythm shots. He appears to be shying away from contact rather than taking the ball up and through his man like he was earlier in the year. He's way too dependent on the jump hook -- it appears to be the only move he has any confidence in now. He's got to diversify with a drop step or a hook over the other shoulder. When he gets it real close in, he has to go up strong and dunk it. He's not only taller or as tall as every opponent he faces, but he also can outjump all of them. They should not be blocking his shot or deterring him from going up. And the free throw shooting is essentially the same as it was last year. The early season momentum appears to be gone there too.

I hate to say it folks, but let's just drop all the National Player of the Year talk for Mason. He's clearly out of that conversation, and he should be. Just worry about the next game, that's all.

Last thing: many are saying that the big problem that the loss of Ryan results in (and I don't disagree) is that our spacing is reduced and therefore there's less room for Mason to work. OK fine. That's not going to change with Amile or Josh playing the 4. If one believes that Mason is really being hurt by not having a shooter at the 4, that is an argument for Murphy at the 4. I know he hasn't played much at that position, but if we're going to look for some changes, some tweaks, or whatever you want to call them, that's one to consider. Murphy at the 4.

[weezie]

Murphy at the 4.

Works for me. At least he's bringing the energy.

[left_hook_lacey]

Apologies if I'm repeating anything that's been beaten to death, but this thread is long, and I've already read the entire in-game thread. Don't have time to read both.

From what I can tell, I don't think we're giving Miami enough credit. I hear Kelly out is killing us, we didn't have enough effort, our terrible shooting cost us. The truth is, Miami is a very good team, and they seem to be getting better, and more confident.

They have all the right ingredients to make a serious run at a title. They are versatile, they have terrific size and are strong defensively. They spread the floor and have 2 or 3 serious three point threats. And the trouble just starts there. At the controls is Larkin.

That kid is lightning fast, but under control. One of the fastest I've seen with the ball in his hand in a long, long time. Usually, a player that fast and young kicks it around quite a bit over the course of a game but he makes the pass when necessary, and attacks when necessary. Not to mention, his supporting cast are all very capable and know what to do with the ball when he dishes. That allowed them to do whatever they wanted, pretty much whenever they wanted. The only time we got any significant pressure on the ball was when Larkin was taking a breather. We simply could not stay in front of him. Maybe double him at half court and MAKE him give it up. Scott seemed a little nervous on the rare occasion he had to

He torched Quinn over and over tonight, and as we all know, Quinn is not slow. K put Tyler on him, and he almost made Tyler lose his footing a couple times trying to keep up with him. A hesitation step, or quick head fake and his Larkin left his defender sprinting down court trying to catch up. I've never seen Tyler get left so many times so badly.

Folks, it's hard to play the kind of on-ball pressure we like to play when we're basically playing 4 on 5 after Larkin leaves his man over and over, then he makes a good decision with the ball.

Sure, if Curry had of been normal Curry, the game would've been closer. If Kelly were in there, closer still. But we still would've had our work cut out for us.

So while we are all looking for the "why", I think we all know why if we're honest with ourselves. Miami is just better than us right now. Tough to say, but true. Can we beat them? Sure. We all know it's a different story when they come calling to Cameron. But we will need a perfect storm of events to pull out the W at home. Lack of discipline on their part because of over-confidence, one or two of their players get in foul trouble, Curry gets hot from 3 to put pressure back on their offense. They aren't super deep, so an emotional game in Cameron with tourney implications could work in our favor. Get Larkin turning the ball over or trying to do too much himself because the game is close...Those types of situations are what we'll need if we're gonna beat the same Miami team we faced last night.

So....silver lining:

They have to come to Cameron now. All home conference wins are special, but I think we all know everyone will be super amped for that rematch.

Curry will probably never have a bad shooting night like the one he had last night.

Our effort is NEVER the problem.

We are still very good, and will have no problem making a deep run in March.

Sometimes you just have to take a step back and call it like it is. Miami is just better than us right now. Acknowledging that will make it that much sweeter if we can pull it off next time we face them in our house.

One more thing. Overreaction and wanting more minutes for Murphy is just that. Folks, when you're the 5th option on the floor, you're bound to get a few garbage points here and there because the defense will live with a bench player mopping up a loose ball here or there if they're shutting down the core of the offense.

[tele]

Sorry if I repeat anything already said. I waded through most of this thread, but not all of it. Here are my thoughts.

First of all, the loss had nothing to do with Miami coming out more intense or more focused than Duke. Duke led this game not just in the first minute or two, but at the ten minute mark of the first half. We were plenty intense and focused at the outset. It's just that we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

And that was really the key issue. Basketball is such a confidence and momentum game, especially in college. Miss a few shots and the ball all of a sudden doesn't feel right coming out of your hand and you miss again. The other team gets a couple of hoops and they're feeling strong. The basket starts to look very small for one team and very large for the other. Crowd emotion adds fuel of course. And you end up with a snowball effect. If I can find the time tonight, I may go back and torture myself and take a look at the open shots we missed in the first half, but there were so many, by pretty much all the guys, and once they start to clang, it's hard to arrest that. It's why when guys are going bad, the advice is to "get an easy one" just so you'll get the psychological benefit of feeling the ball come off your hand properly and go through the basket just as you planned. Do that once or twice and all of a sudden the longer shots start to fall too. Just didn't happen last night.

Next. Seth's bad night was absolutely related to Scott's tough defense. Scott was bumping him around every screen and was in his shirt a lot. Seth could barely put two dribbles together without having to fend Scott off, and he had very few if any clean looks at the basket. Everything was pressured.

Quinn Cook not only couldn't handle Larkin's penetration, but he also couldn't beat his man off the dribble. Cook has got to be able to penetrate, not only to get his own shot in the lane, but more importantly in order to open up clean jumpshots for his teammates when help comes. He couldn't penetrate. We were left to that 3-man handoff game on the perimeter to try to gain an advantage and turn a corner, but their defenders were too quick and too rangy for that.

But as others have stated, the big disappointment was Mason Plumlee. He looks nothing like the player from the first few weeks of the year. He wasn't going up against Nerlens Noel or even a Richard Howell last night. Julian Gamble was a fill-in for Reggie Johnson. Not even really a starter for them, and Mason simply did not display the ability to get off very many quality, in rhythm shots. He appears to be shying away from contact rather than taking the ball up and through his man like he was earlier in the year. He's way too dependent on the jump hook -- it appears to be the only move he has any confidence in now. He's got to diversify with a drop step or a hook over the other shoulder. When he gets it real close in, he has to go up strong and dunk it. He's not only taller or as tall as every opponent he faces, but he also can outjump all of them. They should not be blocking his shot or deterring him from going up. And the free throw shooting is essentially the same as it was last year. The early season momentum appears to be gone there too.

I hate to say it folks, but let's just drop all the National Player of the Year talk for Mason. He's clearly out of that conversation, and he should be. Just worry about the next game, that's all.

Last thing: many are saying that the big problem that the loss of Ryan results in (and I don't disagree) is that our spacing is reduced and therefore there's less room for Mason to work. OK fine. That's not going to change with Amile or Josh playing the 4. If one believes that Mason is really being hurt by not having a shooter at the 4, that is an argument for Murphy at the 4. I know he hasn't played much at that position, but if we're going to look for some changes, some tweaks, or whatever you want to call them, that's one to consider. Murphy at the 4.


good summary, I agree with most points but think Mason is bearing the brunt of things. He can't play the perimeter and the post too. I think his defense was good given that he could not afford to foul or risk sitting because of fouls. His post moves did seem more limited but he seems to be trying to take the highest percentage shot every time, so doesn't vary things or face up much. This may be partley due being double teamed and even triple teamed, but I think it is mainly because he has to carry more of the load with Kelly out and he isn't really taking that many more shots or getting the ball more often from the perimeter players. Kelly may have been the best feeder of the post Duke had and got the ball to Mason for relatively good looks and easy baskets, those looks aren't there now.

I think the shooting woes for the perimeter players were because of Miami's defense but also some tight rims and an odd looking shooting background. Definite home team advantage if you are used to shooting at rims that catapult the ball back at you. Larkin had 10 rebounds from all the long rebounds.

Besides the shooting difficulties and the defensive lapses of the guards in this game, I also thought there was a definite disorganization on offense, and not much control of tempo or strong possesions where the team worked together to get a good look, let alone an easy basket. For whatever reason this didn't come from the point or the senior guard where it you would expect it. When the game was getting away no one took charge and settled the team to have a strong possesion on offense or a stop on D. That was most disturbing to me. Not something you ever see or expect from a Duke team, and it just played into the Miami run.

So, I would say it is likely there will be some sort of lineup change going forward. The second half lineup that more or less played Miami even may be a foretelling of where things will go. That was with three freshman, tyler and mason. It will be interesting to see what moves K makes and how players adjust to new roles. The three guard line up, without Kelly, may not be the best one for right now. If Curry's leg is bothering him, playing three guard lineups- may target too much defensive pressure on the two seniors, leaving too little Offensive firepower elsewhere. Seth Greenburg on the espn halftime report was positively gleeful telling how to stop Duke by taking Curry's legs out from under him (no mention of his injury of course) and also by pushing Mason off the block. I never thought I'd miss Digger.

[dukeofcalabash]

Apologies if I'm repeating anything that's been beaten to death, but this thread is long, and I've already read the entire in-game thread. Don't have time to read both.

From what I can tell, I don't think we're giving Miami enough credit. I hear Kelly out is killing us, we didn't have enough effort, our terrible shooting cost us. The truth is, Miami is a very good team, and they seem to be getting better, and more confident.

They have all the right ingredients to make a serious run at a title. They are versatile, they have terrific size and are strong defensively. They spread the floor and have 2 or 3 serious three point threats. And the trouble just starts there. At the controls is Larkin.

That kid is lightning fast, but under control. One of the fastest I've seen with the ball in his hand in a long, long time. Usually, a player that fast and young kicks it around quite a bit over the course of a game but he makes the pass when necessary, and attacks when necessary. Not to mention, his supporting cast are all very capable and know what to do with the ball when he dishes. That allowed them to do whatever they wanted, pretty much whenever they wanted. The only time we got any significant pressure on the ball was when Larkin was taking a breather. We simply could not stay in front of him. Maybe double him at half court and MAKE him give it up. Scott seemed a little nervous on the rare occasion he had to

He torched Quinn over and over tonight, and as we all know, Quinn is not slow. K put Tyler on him, and he almost made Tyler lose his footing a couple times trying to keep up with him. A hesitation step, or quick head fake and his Larkin left his defender sprinting down court trying to catch up. I've never seen Tyler get left so many times so badly.

Folks, it's hard to play the kind of on-ball pressure we like to play when we're basically playing 4 on 5 after Larkin leaves his man over and over, then he makes a good decision with the ball.

Sure, if Curry had of been normal Curry, the game would've been closer. If Kelly were in there, closer still. But we still would've had our work cut out for us.

So while we are all looking for the "why", I think we all know why if we're honest with ourselves. Miami is just better than us right now. Tough to say, but true. Can we beat them? Sure. We all know it's a different story when they come calling to Cameron. But we will need a perfect storm of events to pull out the W at home. Lack of discipline on their part because of over-confidence, one or two of their players get in foul trouble, Curry gets hot from 3 to put pressure back on their offense. They aren't super deep, so an emotional game in Cameron with tourney implications could work in our favor. Get Larkin turning the ball over or trying to do too much himself because the game is close...Those types of situations are what we'll need if we're gonna beat the same Miami team we faced last night.

So....silver lining:

They have to come to Cameron now. All home conference wins are special, but I think we all know everyone will be super amped for that rematch.

Curry will probably never have a bad shooting night like the one he had last night.

Our effort is NEVER the problem.

We are still very good, and will have no problem making a deep run in March.

Sometimes you just have to take a step back and call it like it is. Miami is just better than us right now. Acknowledging that will make it that much sweeter if we can pull it off next time we face them in our house.

One more thing. Overreaction and wanting more minutes for Murphy is just that. Folks, when you're the 5th option on the floor, you're bound to get a few garbage points here and there because the defense will live with a bench player mopping up a loose ball here or there if they're shutting down the core of the offense.

"Curry will probably never have a bad shooting night like the one he had last night." Beg to differ, but did you watch every game LAST year? A shooter is just that, a shooter. Sometimes hot, sometimes cold! Cold spells seem to come at bad times, hot spells often seem to fall a shot short.

[tele]

I'll repeat my question to all as it may get lost on the previous page: does anyone have a video or transcript link of Coach K's post-game presser?

I looked but was unable to find one, maybe he didn't have one?

[rsvman]

Let me be the first in this thread to say that we really could've used Dawkins last night. Not that I begrudge him his time off; I supported him from the beginning. It was just the kind of game where maybe a hit shooter would have really opened things up for us.

I picture in my mind the happy Andre we saw dropping bomb after bomb against Michigan State in K's 903rd win and it just makes me smile.

[tele]

At the controls is Larkin.

That kid is lightning fast, but under control. One of the fastest I've seen with the ball in his hand in a long, long time. Usually, a player that fast and young kicks it around quite a bit over the course of a game but he makes the pass when necessary, and attacks when necessary. Not to mention, his supporting cast are all very capable and know what to do with the ball when he dishes. That allowed them to do whatever they wanted, pretty much whenever they wanted. The only time we got any significant pressure on the ball was when Larkin was taking a breather. We simply could not stay in front of him. Maybe double him at half court and MAKE him give it up. Scott seemed a little nervous on the rare occasion he had to

He torched Quinn over and over tonight, and as we all know, Quinn is not slow. K put Tyler on him, and he almost made Tyler lose his footing a couple times trying to keep up with him. A hesitation step, or quick head fake and his Larkin left his defender sprinting down court trying to catch up. I've never seen Tyler get left so many times so badly.

Folks, it's hard to play the kind of on-ball pressure we like to play when we're basically playing 4 on 5 after Larkin leaves his man over and over, then he makes a good decision with the ball.

Sure, if Curry had of been normal Curry, the game would've been closer. If Kelly were in there, closer still. But we still would've had our work cut out for us.

You are right that Larkin had a very good game, a double double but with 10 rebounds and just 5 assists, which is what Cook had I believe. I think you may be making a bit much of Larkin though, he may have good speed and quickness but Tyler was able to guard him fairly well in the second half, in spite of some moving screens and being deliberately poked in the eye by a miami player. Cook did lose track of Larkin but not sure if this was completely due to Larkins' speed or just Cook's defense. I've noticed too that Cook has good speed when going straight ahead but doesn't change directions very quickly, lateral quickness I guess. Larkin definitely was much quicker with the ball and did play under control at the point. I thought since Larkin isn't very big that this would be a better match up for Duke at point guard but unfortunately not. But Tyler did a much better job in the second half with a bigger lineup in running the offense and on defense too..



One more thing. Overreaction and wanting more minutes for Murphy is just that. Folks, when you're the 5th option on the floor, you're bound to get a few garbage points here and there because the defense will live with a bench player mopping up a loose ball here or there if they're shutting down the core of the offense.

I don't think it is overreaction to want more minutes for a player that played hard and wasn't over matched at their position. You may think his points were garbage points the defense was happy to give him but at least he managed to make a few of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Coach K thought he played well too and perhaps puts him in the starting lineup. In fact it may even be the lineup that played most of the second half, with Jefferson and Murphy playing.

[CDu]

I looked but was unable to find one, maybe he didn't have one?

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. But others made reference to comments he made, so I wondered if it was available somewhere. Thanks for checking as well!

[bedeviled]

does anyone have a video or transcript link of Coach K's post-game presser?
I looked but was unable to find one, maybe he didn't have one?I watched Larranga's post-game on YouTube and it was poised and "next play." I haven't seen K's, but here are the quote's I've seen:
From the AP (http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/duke-routed-25-miami-90-63-18297924):

"It wasn't demoralizing; they played better," Blue Devils guard Rasheed Sulaimon said. "I believe we have them on the schedule again."
"We expected them to be terrific, and we have to match terrific, and then you have a terrific game," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "What you had was a terrific win for them, but not a terrific game. We didn't hold our end of the bargain."
"Especially in the first couple of minutes, we got a lot of great shots," Blue Devils forward Mason Plumlee said. "You're going to miss some, but you have to keep shooting. The biggest mistake you can make is questioning your shot because you're missing open shots."
"The crowd I'm sure helped them some," Krzyzewski said. "But they didn't need much help."

From Fox Florida (http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/01/23/13/No-1-Duke-embarrassed-in-rout-at-Miami/mobile_landing.html?blockID=853807):

"There's not much to say after that – men and boys," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "They were men, we were boys for 40 minutes. The score and the performance reflected that disparity."
"I've coached over a thousand games. I'm sure I've been hit by worse runs than that when I was at Army or at Duke and we weren't winning," Krzyzewski said after the Blue Devils' most lopsided loss in a regular-season game since January 1984. "In this game, you can be hit with everything and you have to be able to hit back."
One key factor in the outcome was Duke starters Quinn Cook (1-of-12), Seth Curry (0-10) and Mason Plumlee (5-15) combining for 6-of-37 shooting. "That's something I haven't seen before," Krzyzewski said.
"Look, this wasn't for a championship," Krzyzewski said. "This is a heck of a game. We should be ready to play. They won. They killed us. I've done this for a long time. Do you think we're not going to try to show up the next time?"

From the Miami Herald:
When asked if he could take any positives from the game, Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said, “I can’t think of anything. Is the weather good?”
“They killed us,” Krzyzewski said. “When our three veterans shoot 6 for 37 — that’s something I have never seen.”

[Mhgraham]

I don't think Murphy is much like Kelly at all. Kelly is a stretch-4, Murphy is a pure 3. He doesn't stretch the floor any more than Sulaimon or Curry, and those are the guys for whom he was subbing.

If you're suggesting playing Murphy at the 4, I think that's a bad idea. I think Murphy would get exposed (even more than Hairston and Jefferson) trying to guard an opposing PF.

Well you can think that all you want but it is the truth. He is 4 inches bigger than Sheed and 6 in bigger than Curry. Murph is the only resemblance of Kelly left on our team. There is no other player who resembles close to his height and weight. Jefferson can make a post move, but he cannot pull the defender outside the lane. I think that is what people have not yet come to realize. Kelly could pull the 6'10 - 7' outside the lane, creating passing and driving lanes for the guards (Sheed, Curry, Cook). However, at the same time he would create a threat by being able to consistently make the 3. Murph is 6'8 and Kelly is 6'11. We are giving up 3 inches, but we have a guy who can shoot from outside. Hairston and Jefferson do not provide that. I said that Murph would have to get better on the defensive end but we are able to expose more of the opponents weaknesses with Murphy in the game rather than Jefferson and Hairston. No one seems to believe me but I have said it since day 1. Kelly enables us to stretch the floor by bringing out that other post player to the outside and opening up driving/passing lanes for the guards.

[Kedsy]

Well you can think that all you want but it is the truth. He is 4 inches bigger than Sheed and 6 in bigger than Curry. Murph is the only resemblance of Kelly left on our team. There is no other player who resembles close to his height and weight. Jefferson can make a post move, but he cannot pull the defender outside the lane. I think that is what people have not yet come to realize. Kelly could pull the 6'10 - 7' outside the lane, creating passing and driving lanes for the guards (Sheed, Curry, Cook). However, at the same time he would create a threat by being able to consistently make the 3. Murph is 6'8 and Kelly is 6'11. We are giving up 3 inches, but we have a guy who can shoot from outside. Hairston and Jefferson do not provide that. I said that Murph would have to get better on the defensive end but we are able to expose more of the opponents weaknesses with Murphy in the game rather than Jefferson and Hairston. No one seems to believe me but I have said it since day 1. Kelly enables us to stretch the floor by bringing out that other post player to the outside and opening up driving/passing lanes for the guards.

I'm with CDu on this. Murphy doesn't resemble Ryan in any meaningful way. He doesn't stretch the floor because opponents don't guard him out there and he has yet to prove that he can make the outside shot with any regularity (so there's no pressing need for opponents to guard him out there).

So, whether or not Alex is "the only resemblance of Kelly left on our team," he doesn't resemble Ryan enough to be productive at PF. Saying how much taller he is than Rasheed and Seth seems incongruous. You're proposing he play PF, so who cares how much bigger he is than our wings? Alex is coming along, but the game still seems a little fast for him. He's not half the defender Ryan is and not half the shooter either. Plus he appears to be a far-less-than-stellar free throw shooter, so he'd be a dangerous inclusion into a late game lineup. Hopefully Coach K will see fit to give Alex more and more playing time as a sub on the wing to continue the advancement of his play but, right now at least, Amile seems more ready to contribute at PF.

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, I'm with Cdu and Kedsy on this one. Murphy is 4-14 from three on the season. Defenses don't really have to honor him on the perimeter at all. I would argue that having Alex take a three, even a wide open one, is one of the last things we want to come out of an offensive set. I like his potential but he's not ready for big time minutes yet and we need to worry about winning games NOW.

Josh isn't flashy but he makes good decisions with the ball and capitalizes on the opportunities he does get. Amile is progressing really well and his scoring is improving every game. I like what we're doing using that tandem to fill Ryan's spot.

With that said, K tends to respond to blowout losses by shaking things up (the Featherston article on the front page provides a great summary) so I expect some changes to the lineup on Saturday as well.

[blueduke59]

Mason could really himself by not putting the ball on the floor almost every time he's fed the ball on the blocks. It seems the only time he doesn't is on put backs and lobs

[CajunDevil]

I'm with Mhgraham on this one. I think Alex is the most like Kelly we have left on the roster. He has the ability to shoot outside of the lane... unlike Amile or Hairston, and with more time his shots from distance will fall. Now, I am concerned about our rebounding and defense if we use Alex at the PF. However, I definitely think he would be a much bigger threat offensively than Amile or Hairston and improve our spacing for Mason.

[slower]

Since Warren Sapp was the instigator of the mocking floor-slap by Miami, let's hope he attends the rematch and takes some abuse from the Crazies. Somebody, please donate a ticket to Mister Sapp. Karma, baby.

Here's a story about his bankruptcy - and, also, about what a jerk he is.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-11-02/warren-sapp-broke-fired-nfl-network-bankrupt-athletes-list

[OldSchool]

I'm with CDu on this. Murphy doesn't resemble Ryan in any meaningful way. He doesn't stretch the floor because opponents don't guard him out there and he has yet to prove that he can make the outside shot with any regularity (so there's no pressing need for opponents to guard him out there).

So, whether or not Alex is "the only resemblance of Kelly left on our team," he doesn't resemble Ryan enough to be productive at PF. Saying how much taller he is than Rasheed and Seth seems incongruous. You're proposing he play PF, so who cares how much bigger he is than our wings? Alex is coming along, but the game still seems a little fast for him. He's not half the defender Ryan is and not half the shooter either. Plus he appears to be a far-less-than-stellar free throw shooter, so he'd be a dangerous inclusion into a late game lineup. Hopefully Coach K will see fit to give Alex more and more playing time as a sub on the wing to continue the advancement of his play but, right now at least, Amile seems more ready to contribute at PF.

The coaching staff clearly views Alex as a shooter because they have given him the green light from 3, something Amile and Josh do not have. It's true WE have a very small sample of his shots to judge by, but the coaches have been observing Alex for literally years now. It's clear that whenever he is open past the 3 point line and feels comfortable shooting, he is free to take that shot. And to my eyes his form looks pretty solid.

I do agree that Amile gives us more now at the PF spot on both ends, but if I were the coaches I would give Alex some more run at the 3 and occasionally at the 4 and see how he continues to develop.

[Durham Thunder]

The coaching staff clearly views Alex as a shooter because they have given him the green light from 3, something Amile and Josh do not have. It's true WE have a very small sample of his shots to judge by, but the coaches have been observing Alex for literally years now. It's clear that whenever he is open past the 3 point line and feels comfortable shooting, he is free to take that shot. And to my eyes his form looks pretty solid.

I do agree that Amile gives us more now at the PF spot on both ends, but if I were the coaches I would give Alex some more run at the 3 and occasionally at the 4 and see how he continues to develop.

Amile, as energetic as he is, should be more aggressive offensively. Either the coaches should clear him to shoot, or encourage him to do so. He's tough on the boards, but he shouldn't be afraid to pop a mid-range shot from the baseline. One thing I have to give UNC is the ability of their big men to hit jump shots. Hansbrough, Zeller, Henson all could hit shots consistently.

[AsiaMinor]

Since Warren Sapp was the instigator of the mocking floor-slap by Miami, let's hope he attends the rematch and takes some abuse from the Crazies. Somebody, please donate a ticket to Mister Sapp. Karma, baby.

Here's a story about his bankruptcy - and, also, about what a jerk he is.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-11-02/warren-sapp-broke-fired-nfl-network-bankrupt-athletes-list

I'm not certain it ever makes anyone look GOOD to say how TERRIBLE another person is
and is really disappointing to see on this Board. I'd expect a comment like this over on
IC but not here.
Sapp was a terrific football player for the Bucs, and did a lot of great things in TB during
his playing years there. He's made huge mistakes, but who hasn't? First stone casting
is a dangerous position to play in any league.

[rsvman]

The Featherston piece about blow-out losses and what happened after them is really interesting, and he certainly makes some good points about how some teams have rebounded from those losses and gone on to do great things. However, I seem to remember seeing somewhere that no NCAA Championship team in the past 20 years (15?) had suffered a loss of greater than 25 points during the regular season.

Anybody know if this is true? Anybody else remember seeing or hearing this?

[WVDUKEFAN]

Warren Sapp -

Another fine, dignified upstanding alumni from the great acedemic institution known as "The U".

[Kedsy]

The coaching staff clearly views Alex as a shooter because they have given him the green light from 3, something Amile and Josh do not have.

That may be, but other teams don't appear to view him that way and he can't stretch the floor unless they guard him out there and they won't guard him out there until he hits a bunch of them. I agree his form isn't bad, but to me it looks like he rushes his shot. I'll be surprised if he breaks 30% from threeland for the season.

In Ryan's freshman year, he shot about the same as Alex is shooting now. His sophomore shooting was OK, but he didn't become a great outside shooter really until last season, when the game noticeably slowed down for him. While I'm not saying Alex can be as good as Ryan is, hopefully he'll continue to advance on a similar path. Unfortunately, that won't help us this season.

[slower]

I'm not certain it ever makes anyone look GOOD to say how TERRIBLE another person is
and is really disappointing to see on this Board. I'd expect a comment like this over on
IC but not here.
Sapp was a terrific football player for the Bucs, and did a lot of great things in TB during
his playing years there. He's made huge mistakes, but who hasn't? First stone casting
is a dangerous position to play in any league.

Lighten Up, Francis. This is a sports site for sports fans, not a seminary. We're talking about Warren Sapp, not Gandhi. He threw the first stone - I'm just suggesting that somebody return the stone to him.

He is one of the most public faces of "The U", which, in addition to being a college, is also an attitude of aggressive, often violent, confrontation. In other words, they (those that act out the mentality of "The U") are bullies. You are obviously a "turn the other cheek" sort, which is admirable. However, with certain types of bullies, turning the other cheek has no effect. I think that perhaps some of The Crazies might like to show their team that intentional public insults, such as Miami's floor-slapping, is something that will not be accepted meekly.

[Saratoga2]

Yeah, I'm with Cdu and Kedsy on this one. Murphy is 4-14 from three on the season. Defenses don't really have to honor him on the perimeter at all. I would argue that having Alex take a three, even a wide open one, is one of the last things we want to come out of an offensive set. I like his potential but he's not ready for big time minutes yet and we need to worry about winning games NOW.

Josh isn't flashy but he makes good decisions with the ball and capitalizes on the opportunities he does get. Amile is progressing really well and his scoring is improving every game. I like what we're doing using that tandem to fill Ryan's spot.

With that said, K tends to respond to blowout losses by shaking things up (the Featherston article on the front page provides a great summary) so I expect some changes to the lineup on Saturday as well.

One way to shake things up is to insert a combination of Mason, Amile(4), Alex(3), Rasheed (2), Quinn (1). I don't mean to say that this is a starting lineup, but would like to see how well it could produce when our more normal starting lineup can't seem to compete.