MBB: Wake Forest 86, NC State 84

[westwall]

-- 85 to 84

[roywhite]

Good stuff!

Down go the Wuffies.

And the Black and Gold rush the court.

[OldPhiKap]

Road games are hard, especially for a young team.

Love the ACC.

[FerryFor50]

Didn't see the end, but Leslie hit a jumper and then they got the ball back with a chance to win it?

Did WFU do something stupid on the inbound play?

[Moba]

Missed the game entirely, but I couldn't have asked for a better result. Now, State has no choice but to come out fired up against the heels this weekend.

[CDu]

Didn't see the end, but Leslie hit a jumper and then they got the ball back with a chance to win it?

Did WFU do something stupid on the inbound play?

Sort of. There were 1.2 seconds on the clock. I am guessing that Bzdelik said to throw the inbounds downcourt (so worst case is a loose ball is a LONG 3pt shot. But the inbound only went to halfcourt and was stolen. So Warren had a running 30-footer for the win. The shot was way off.

[roywhite]

Sort of. There were 1.2 seconds on the clock. I am guessing that Bzdelik said to throw the inbounds downcourt (so worst case is a loose ball is a LONG 3pt shot. But the inbound only went to halfcourt and was stolen. So Warren had a running 30-footer for the win. The shot was way off.

Yeah, way too close to losing a lead from Wake's perspective, both down the stretch in general and then a 4-pt lead with 3.5 seconds left.

[tbyers11]

Road games are hard, especially for a young team.

Love the ACC.

Are you being sarcastic about NC State's experience? They play 6 players: SR, SR, JR, JR, FR, FR. That is pretty experienced these days. I do agree about the road games are hard part though.

[miramar]

Louisville is down by one to Villanova with less than five minutes to go.

[matt1]

Louisville is down by one to Villanova with less than five minutes to go.

Louisville down 5 with about a minute to go.

[miramar]

Louisville down 5 with about a minute to go.

Nova 73-64

[Wander]

NC State needs a little more discipline - they burned a couple precious seconds after their game-tying attempt while Leslie was complaining to the referee about not getting a foul call. I agree it was a really bad no-call, but he basically stopped playing while it was a 2 point game with a few seconds left.

[Newton_14]

NC State needs a little more discipline - they burned a couple precious seconds after their game-tying attempt while Leslie was complaining to the referee about not getting a foul call. I agree it was a really bad no-call, but he basically stopped playing while it was a 2 point game with a few seconds left.

I believe the moments such as this are when they refer to him as "CJ", and when he is playing great and dominating, they refer to him as "Calvin". Which means they got a CJ play/reaction when they needed Calvin to show up. :D

[UrinalCake]

Maybe State fans could ask the Maryland fans to borrow some of those "pretend it's Duke" signs for their next home game

[moonpie23]

I have a state buddy......a really good buddy. we text AFTER games only....he's a duke hater, i'm a state lover as long as they aren't playing duke or S. Carolina


(after state game tonight)


ME: ouch
Him: well, you can't win them all i guess, just the ones that matter

ME: i guess we can step away from state running away with the acc title for a min?

Him:That's why they play the tournament dummy. regular season is for seeding. Take care of your own bizness State 1 duke., 0

ME: actually, duke has won a lot more games against state in the last ten years than state has won

Him: why are you living in the past? Ancient history, we own duke. now.

ME: Umm, i think you still have to come play at cameron

Him: can wait
Him: can't wait
Him: we will destroy you
Him: duke aint s%#t
Him: get me tickets
Him: right beside you
Him: we oen duke
Him: if you beat us i'll get a duke tattoo !!

me: done.

do i get to pick the tattoo?

Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:


me: hello?
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:
Him:

[wilko]

Moonie
Dont hurt him....
Perhaps he should get one of those temporary tattoos and wear a block D on his forehead for a week.

[UrinalCake]

Typical State fan attitude - they only care about beating their local rivals. They would rather beat Duke and UNC and go to the NIT than lose to Duke and UNC and win the National Championship.

[CDu]

Typical State fan attitude - they only care about beating their local rivals. They would rather beat Duke and UNC and go to the NIT than lose to Duke and UNC and win the National Championship.

I don't think that's fair or accurate. I think it's more accurate to say it's a fan who is looking for any positive angle to a rivalry for which his team is on the lesser side.

[UrinalCake]

I work with several State grads and specifically asked two of them to choose between the two scenarios above. Both said they would prefer the first option - beating Duke and UNC and then going to the NIT. So maybe it's not fair to say that ALL State fans feel this way, and I don't want to speak for MoonPie's friend, but I would venture to guess that a fair amount of them do.

[Slackerb]

Not mentioned anywhere is that State was up 16 at one point and went into the half up twelve.

I watched the game last night, and the Pack should have been in a better position, but they also were greatly hampered by the Ted Valentine curse.

They were in foul trouble most of the game and it would have been a lot worse if they kept playing tough defense. The entire second half they had to let baskets be made in order to avoid fouls, it was clear. 18 minutes for Leslie and only 29 minutes for Wood. Devin Thomas had one flagrant foul called for clearing out with elbows, but it was his go-to move in the post and he wasn't called on it several other times.

Also the no-call at the end of the play was pretty atrocious. Everyone knows they swallow the whistle, but on a play like that inside, that call has to be made.

State still should have pulled it off despite the reffing, but still, it was obvious that it greatly affected the game last night.

[CDu]

I work with several State grads and specifically asked two of them to choose between the two scenarios above. Both said they would prefer the first option - beating Duke and UNC and then going to the NIT. So maybe it's not fair to say that ALL State fans feel this way, and I don't want to speak for MoonPie's friend, but I would venture to guess that a fair amount of them do.

I have 2 close friends who are State grads, and they would both much rather win a national championship than beat Duke or UNC. Obviously, they'd rather beat Duke or UNC than not, but a national championship trumps all for them.

I would venture that your two colleagues either didn't understand the question or represent substantial outliers to the norm.

I could see that argument holding for a lesser tournament accomplishment (e.g., beat Duke and UNC but go to the NIT rather than lose to Duke and UNC but make the Sweet 16). But not for a national championship.

[jipops]

State's defense is pretty horrible right now. Wake Forest with 86 points while shooting almost 50%!? This makes the 76 we scored against them seem putrid.

[CDu]

State's defense is pretty horrible right now. Wake Forest with 86 points while shooting almost 50%!? This makes the 76 we scored against them seem putrid.

Yeah, they are #156 in defensive efficiency according to Pomeroy. That is pretty bad for a supposedly elite team.

In fairness to us, we were playing on the road, in our first game without Kelly (and without Curry for the final stretch), against a team that was REALLY fired up to play against us. Conversely, Wake was playing at home against a team that was probably coasting a bit (and that got in foul trouble).

[arnie]

Important rule of thumb; if State looses, its because of the refs. 2nd important rule of thumb; if State is called for more fouls, the refs are out to get them/if State is not called for more fouls, its because they excel at all phases and the other team should have been called for a few more. 3rd important rule of thumb; if State wins, they still got screwed by the refs.

Go to a State home game; the ref sniping starts well before tip-off and continues forever.

[toooskies]

NC State plays a very physical defense combined with a very short rotation, and so when the refs have a quick whistle, NC State is at a significant disadvantage. Three of their four losses, in addition to their close game with BC, are their four worst Defensive Free Throw Rate performances.

Game-by-game (in order of lowest to highest foul rate):
- Against Michigan, Howell was limited to 19 minutes and fouled out, with the team accumulating 18 fouls.
- Against Oklahoma State, Howell and Leslie both fouled out, each without playing 20 minutes, and the team had 21 fouls.
- Against Wake, Leslie played 18 minutes and got four fouls, and Howell fouled out despite playing 38 minutes; the team had 23 fouls.
- Against BC, Wood was limited to 23 minutes and 4 fouls, and Purvis fouled out despite playing 35 minutes; the team had 20 fouls.

Perhaps coincidentally, in every other game NC State has played, State's foul rate has been significantly lower than their opponent. And in fact, 4 of their 5 lowest Offensive Free Throw Rates are also their losses. Which may signify that when they can't be aggressive defensively, they also stop being aggressive offensively and settle for jump shots. Or alternately, they just don't come out as aggressive against some opponents, like Wake.

In other words: State may be fundamentally built to be a team that's dependent on how the game is called by the refs. If the game is called against them, their chances of winning go down.

Note that, as with all free throw stats, being ahead in the last minute or two of the game can significantly help your OFTR.

But yeah, their defense is still objectively mediocre.

[UrinalCake]

I went to a game where Duke played at State a few years back. Agree with Arnie - the fans put way more effort into booing the refs than actually cheering for their team. They actually played really well and wound up beating us, you'd think their fans would have been happy, but no it was just yelling about how much the refs sucked.

[arnie]

I went to a game where Duke played at State a few years back. Agree with Arnie - the fans put way more effort into booing the refs than actually cheering for their team. They actually played really well and wound up beating us, you'd think their fans would have been happy, but no it was just yelling about how much the refs sucked.

Thanks and this applies to all sports. Went to an Alabama-State football game in the 90s - didn't care who won or lost. Sat on very top row in the stadium. On every single Alabama offensive play, the "fan" in front of me screamed that Bama was holding. Of course most fans near him agreed and were impressed his eyesight was so good.

[wilson]

I would venture that your two colleagues either didn't understand the question or represent substantial outliers to the norm.[insert "farm school" joke here]

[CDu]

Important rule of thumb; if State looses, its because of the refs. 2nd important rule of thumb; if State is called for more fouls, the refs are out to get them/if State is not called for more fouls, its because they excel at all phases and the other team should have been called for a few more. 3rd important rule of thumb; if State wins, they still got screwed by the refs.

Go to a State home game; the ref sniping starts well before tip-off and continues forever.

On this issue, I totally agree.

[burns15]

Although I still believe that Bzdelik is not the right man for the job, the remainder of the season and how Wake Forest finishes will determine that. But this Wake team seems like it has some nice potential for the next couple of years.

Miller-McIntyre was highly regarded coming out of high school, and has filled in nicely as a combo guard for the Deacons to the tune of 8.2 PPG and a A/TO of 1.35/1 in 28 minutes a game...not bad numbers for a freshman starter in the ACC. You gotta think that with CJ Harris graduating, the ball will come Miller-McIntyre's way, leading to increased scoring and assist opportunities.

Thomas has proven to be a nice surprise at the 5 position for the Deacs. Averaging 7.5 PPG and 7.3 rebounds in 26 minutes of action a game, Thomas has solidified the inside with excellent defense and rebounding, and shown that he can score when needed, ala his game last night against NCST. With expected improvement, its not hard to see him averaging 10-12 a game next year and 8 rebounds.

Adala-Moto, also highly regarded out of high school, has proven that he has both the strength to compete inside, and the ability to take slower 4's out to the perimeter and knock down the 15 footer, or drive to the rim. If Adala-Moto, can improve his range to the 3 point line, he could become a solid 4 man in the ACC.

Of course, everyone in the conference knows about Travis McKie, a bonafide stud for this Wake Forest team.

That gives Wake 4 quality starters heading into the 2013 season. With the addition of 6'6'' Greg McClinton, the #17 SG in the country (per ESPN), the Deacs could have as long and defensively-capable a team as there is in the conference next year. The expected improvements of current backup PG 6'1'' Madison Jones (who has looked solid in about 18 minutes a game), 6'9'' PF Tyler Cavanaugh (getting roughly 17 minutes a game), and 6'8'' SF Aaron Rountree (12 minutes a game)... the Deacs could run eight quality players in next year.

Finally, with a top #20 commit (per ESPN) in PG Shelton Mitchell in the class of 2014, Wake seems to be building some momentum on the recruiting trail as well.

Now all of this takes into account expected improvement and progression of players from their freshman to sophomore years and so on, and admittedly if Bzdelik is not the right man, the players may not progress as expected. But for the most part, Wake has established a great core for success going forward, and the NCST game could very serve as a springboard for confidence down the road for these young players.

[jimsumner]

Although I still believe that Bzdelik is not the right man for the job, the remainder of the season and how Wake Forest finishes will determine that. But this Wake team seems like it has some nice potential for the next couple of years.

Miller-McIntyre was highly regarded coming out of high school, and has filled in nicely as a combo guard for the Deacons to the tune of 8.2 PPG and a A/TO of 1.35/1 in 28 minutes a game...not bad numbers for a freshman starter in the ACC. You gotta think that with CJ Harris graduating, the ball will come Miller-McIntyre's way, leading to increased scoring and assist opportunities.

Thomas has proven to be a nice surprise at the 5 position for the Deacs. Averaging 7.5 PPG and 7.3 rebounds in 26 minutes of action a game, Thomas has solidified the inside with excellent defense and rebounding, and shown that he can score when needed, ala his game last night against NCST. With expected improvement, its not hard to see him averaging 10-12 a game next year and 8 rebounds.

Adala-Moto, also highly regarded out of high school, has proven that he has both the strength to compete inside, and the ability to take slower 4's out to the perimeter and knock down the 15 footer, or drive to the rim. If Adala-Moto, can improve his range to the 3 point line, he could become a solid 4 man in the ACC.

Of course, everyone in the conference knows about Travis McKie, a bonafide stud for this Wake Forest team.

That gives Wake 4 quality starters heading into the 2013 season. With the addition of 6'6'' Greg McClinton, the #17 SG in the country (per ESPN), the Deacs could have as long and defensively-capable a team as there is in the conference next year. The expected improvements of current backup PG 6'1'' Madison Jones (who has looked solid in about 18 minutes a game), 6'9'' PF Tyler Cavanaugh (getting roughly 17 minutes a game), and 6'8'' SF Aaron Rountree (12 minutes a game)... the Deacs could run eight quality players in next year.

Finally, with a top #20 commit (per ESPN) in PG Shelton Mitchell in the class of 2014, Wake seems to be building some momentum on the recruiting trail as well.

Now all of this takes into account expected improvement and progression of players from their freshman to sophomore years and so on, and admittedly if Bzdelik is not the right man, the players may not progress as expected. But for the most part, Wake has established a great core for success going forward, and the NCST game could very serve as a springboard for confidence down the road for these young players.

Miller-McIntyre was the consensus # 75 recruit last season. Moto was # 90. No one else was in the top 100.

By ACC standards, this was a middling class. Bzdelik has a lot riding on this guys. He better be right

[burns15]

Miller-McIntyre was the consensus # 75 recruit last season. Moto was # 90. No one else was in the top 100.

By ACC standards, this was a middling class. Bzdelik has a lot riding on this guys. He better be right

That may be so, but most of the freshman, save for possibly Washington and Cavanaugh, have acquitted themselves quite well. If not for a missed putback last weekend, Wake would be 4-2 in the conference. Just saying they have an interesting collection of players, and it will be intriguing to see if Bzdelik can continue to improve as the season wears on. Its always good for the conference for Wake to be strong

[Slackerb]

Important rule of thumb; if State looses, its because of the refs. 2nd important rule of thumb; if State is called for more fouls, the refs are out to get them/if State is not called for more fouls, its because they excel at all phases and the other team should have been called for a few more. 3rd important rule of thumb; if State wins, they still got screwed by the refs.

Go to a State home game; the ref sniping starts well before tip-off and continues forever.

While that may be true, you can't really dispute the impact that Valentine had on last night's game unless you watched it.

[allenmurray]

While that may be true, you can't really dispute the impact that Valentine had on last night's game unless you watched it.

I watched it. In less than 20 minutes a 16 point lead became a 12 point deficit. Valentine wasn't responsible for that 28 point turnaround - NCSU was.

[Slackerb]

I watched it. In less than 20 minutes a 16 point lead became a 12 point deficit. Valentine wasn't responsible for that 28 point turnaround - NCSU was.

I know the impact a JPG has on this board, but it at least shows I'm not the only one that thought so:



I'm not saying Valentine was responsible, but it certainly affected the game in a major way.

Valentine was also the ref in the State/Michigan game where Leslie was charged with a very questionable offensive foul call at the end of the game that had a major effect.

[CDu]

I watched it. In less than 20 minutes a 16 point lead became a 12 point deficit. Valentine wasn't responsible for that 28 point turnaround - NCSU was.

It is true that State/Wake were responsible for the majority of the balance of the game. But Valentine and his crew certainly seemed to give a LOT of swing to the home team on a number of calls (Brown's fast-break charge call for his 4th mid-way through the 2nd half and the no-call on Leslie's shot attempt near the end are two quick examples). That certainly aided in Wake's charge and ultimately aided Wake to victory.

It is true that State had no business letting Wake back in the game. But Wake certainly seemed to get a good bit of help from the officials.