PDA

View Full Version : Best X/O coaches, homecourt advantage



gumbomoop
01-16-2013, 01:27 PM
Interesting column on ESPN site. Homecourt advantage is lead, but scroll down for poll and lots of interesting tidbits..

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8848242/nation-best-homecourt-advantages-college-basketball

I'm actually a little surprised that K topped this ESPN-scribe X/O poll. Duke haters will claim ESPN is the "Duke network," but I have to assume these scribes watch a lot of games and are also influenced a little by what they hear when they talk to various coaches and announcer/commentators.

I didn't know K would top any such poll. I assumed a few other coaches were thought better at X/O. K close but not top. So I was pleasantly surprised, even though the poll is meaningless.

Is it meaningless that Coach Williams got 0 votes? Zero. Is his absence mostly a factor of the Heels' unimpressive performance this year, i.e., "Whole new team, Roy can't adjust, too hardheaded and wedded to a system"? Or is his rep as not very good at X/O long- and well-established, i.e., "Everybody knows Roy Williams has strengths, but they just do not include good X/O"?

CDu
01-16-2013, 01:38 PM
I would not have put Coach K on the Xs/Os list, but rather as the #1 guy at organizing a team, getting the team to buy into a gameplan, and motivating his team throughout the year. And if I had to pick the coach with the best all-around attributes (organization, leadership, recruiting, Xs/Os, motivation), it's Coach K by a wide margin. But I do think there are probably better in-game Xs/Os guys out there.

As for the home court thing, call it sacrilegious but I think Cameron is overrated. Yes, very it's loud. Yes, the building is on the short list of great venues to experience a game. Yes, historically the Crazies have a great reputation. But in terms of impact that the crowd has on the game, I don't think we're all we're cracked up to be. The stuff I saw from fans in Cameron when I was a student there was clever and fun and entertaining. But it rarely (not never) was truly hostile and intimidating to the opponent or the officials. There are plenty of places (Kentucky, Maryland, Va Tech, etc) where the crowd is really hostile, and their hostility influences the game (both play and officiating).

Cameron is loud and the fans are very supportive of their team. But that's true of most venues (even the Dean Dome gets really loud when the team is in a tough game). But I think there are venues where the level of hostility in the arena has a bigger impact than we see at Cameron.

Wander
01-16-2013, 02:49 PM
There are plenty of places (Kentucky, Maryland, Va Tech, etc) where the crowd is really hostile, and their hostility influences the game (both play and officiating).


Just a guess here, but I think you may be letting some sample biasing affect your thoughts. Probably most of the Maryland and Virginia Tech games you watch are when Duke, or maybe UNC or a highly ranked team, are playing there, right? I agree that lots of places can get pretty loud and hostile for the right game; I think what separates Duke (and Kansas and Indiana and probably some others) is the consistency with which it happens.

Not surprised that Coach K is at the top of the X and O list, or that Roy is not on the list - I think we're seeing that it's fairly agreed upon "in basketball circles" that he's not one of the great in-game coaches of the sport. A little surprised that Boeheim only got one vote, though.

CDu
01-16-2013, 02:54 PM
Just a guess here, but I think you may be letting some sample biasing affect your thoughts. Probably most of the Maryland and Virginia Tech games you watch are when Duke, or maybe UNC or a highly ranked team, are playing there, right? I agree that lots of places can get pretty loud and hostile for the right game; I think what separates Duke (and Kansas and Indiana and probably some others) is the consistency with which it happens.

Well, there's no hostility (just some cutesiness/cleverness and volume) from the Cameron crowd, so there is certainly consistency there. :)

In the case of Maryland, the fan base has had to deal with several awful teams. But the hostility from the fans is still there for any matchup that matters. VaTech fans are jerks to everyone - not just Duke. That's just a really unpleasant place to play a game.

But I'd not lump Kentucky in with Maryland. Their fans are truly crazy and they get fired up every game. You better believe they have a home court advantage every time they step on their floor.


Not surprised that Coach K is at the top of the X and O list, or that Roy is not on the list - I think we're seeing that it's fairly agreed upon "in basketball circles" that he's not one of the great in-game coaches of the sport. A little surprised that Boeheim only got one vote, though.

Well, it's a list compiled of 5 sportswriters' (i.e., not basketball experts') opinions. So I wouldn't read much into it Boeheim's lack of votes.

hurleyfor3
01-16-2013, 03:11 PM
The Greatest Play In College Basketball History started with the question, "Grant, can you throw it 80 feet?" That's good enough for me. Not to mention "Special", telling Brian Zoubek to miss his second free throw and telling the team to "just play" when down 21 in the first half of a national semifinal. Hey, that's all our national titles. No wait, only three of them and the privilege of getting blown out by unlv.

Maybe Allen Field House (never sure whether it's Field House or Fieldhouse, and I don't trust espn or wiki-anything here) is a better venue than Cameron. But what Kansas fans don't want you to know is that architecturally, the place *is* Cameron in every way, just bigger. We were first.

Duvall
01-16-2013, 03:13 PM
Well, there's no hostility (just some cutesiness/cleverness and volume) from the Cameron crowd, so there is certainly consistency there. :)

In the case of Maryland, the fan base has had to deal with several awful teams. But the hostility from the fans is still there for any matchup that matters. VaTech fans are jerks to everyone - not just Duke. That's just a really unpleasant place to play a game.

How hostile can an empty seat be? The few fans in a half-empty stadium may be jerks, but it doesn't make for an imposing environment. It's hard to be impressed by a venue that is filled once or twice a season.

CDu
01-16-2013, 03:34 PM
How hostile can an empty seat be? The few fans in a half-empty stadium may be jerks, but it doesn't make for an imposing environment. It's hard to be impressed by a venue that is filled once or twice a season.

Kentucky and Va Tech are rarely empty. Maryland? More often that is true.

Billy Dat
01-16-2013, 03:35 PM
I agree that the panel was not as interesting as a poll of current coaches would be.

I think the knock on K's Xs and Os has usually been related to his preference for letting the players read and react rather then constantly calling out sets. As a result, he has often been blamed for in game under-coaching. However, I feel like his Team USA experience, what he called his "doctorate" has actually had a tangible impact on his in-game style. I think he manages substitutions a little better, especially yanking players before they can pick up that 3rd first half foul or early second half foul. I also think he's adopted a lot of pro tendencies like forcing defensive switches to exploit mismatches and pro-style floor spacing.

crimsonandblue
01-16-2013, 03:40 PM
The Greatest Play In College Basketball History started with the question, "Grant, can you throw it 80 feet?" That's good enough for me. Not to mention "Special", telling Brian Zoubek to miss his second free throw and telling the team to "just play" when down 21 in the first half of a national semifinal. Hey, that's all our national titles. No wait, only three of them and the privilege of getting blown out by unlv.

Maybe Allen Field House (never sure whether it's Field House or Fieldhouse, and I don't trust espn or wiki-anything here) is a better venue than Cameron. But what Kansas fans don't want you to know is that architecturally, the place *is* Cameron in every way, just bigger. We were first.

I can see why you'd think that, what with Allen's employment of walls, roof and seating surrounding a basketball floor.

CDu
01-16-2013, 03:47 PM
I agree that the panel was not as interesting as a poll of current coaches would be.

I think the knock on K's Xs and Os has usually been related to his preference for letting the players read and react rather then constantly calling out sets. As a result, he has often been blamed for in game under-coaching. However, I feel like his Team USA experience, what he called his "doctorate" has actually had a tangible impact on his in-game style. I think he manages substitutions a little better, especially yanking players before they can pick up that 3rd first half foul or early second half foul. I also think he's adopted a lot of pro tendencies like forcing defensive switches to exploit mismatches and pro-style floor spacing.

I do agree that the Olympics have had a positive impact on his in-game coaching. I certainly don't feel that he's been outcoached in games the last couple of years, and his identification of matchups seems to have gotten better. Also importantly, I think the Olympics has allowed his assistants to improve as coaches and scouts, which makes us better prepared for what teams will want to do against us.

Duvall
01-16-2013, 03:48 PM
I can see why you'd think that, what with Allen's employment of walls, roof and seating surrounding a basketball floor.

What was the design of Allen Fieldhouse based on? My intensive research (five minutes of Googling) didn't turn up anything.

hurleyfor3
01-16-2013, 03:49 PM
I can see why you'd think that, what with Allen's employment of walls, roof and seating surrounding a basketball floor.

Sarcasm aside, the way the roofs and side walls are supported in both Cameron and AFH, with the curving interior buttresses that are essential to the structural integrity, are identical. There's also the way the lobbies at both ends open up onto the floor (and the way the public can access at least a small part of the floor), the way the lower/student level collapses, and the general design of the corridor and tunnels of the middle level of Allen, which would compare to the upper level of Cameron.

OK, Cameron doesn't have a third level (which in Allen looks much the same as the second, although as I recall it's just benches up there, no seats). And Allen isn't Gothic on the outside.

These are all rather unique design elements but are common to both buildings. And if it's not clear, comparing any building to Cameron is meant as a compliment.

gumbomoop
01-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Well, it's a list compiled of 5 sportswriters' (i.e., not basketball experts') opinions. So I wouldn't read much into it Boeheim's lack of votes.

I tried to acknowledge the fact that this is hardly either a scientific or experts' poll, but also I suggested that these ESPN folks must be reflecting not merely their own views, but also some sort of "here's what we hear when we ask questions about coaches."

Interesting, anyhow, to compare their list with the CBS Sports polls that actually asked coaches to name most underrated and overrated among their colleagues. One of these, the Overrated poll, was cited on a thread back in the summer, as Coach Roy was the, uh, winner.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19745784/critical-coaches-who-is-the-most-underrated-coach-in-america

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19753693/critical-coaches-who-is-the-most-overrated-coach-in-the-country

But forgetting Coach Roy for awhile, these lists from coaches do provide interesting data to compare to the ESPN scribes' list of excellent X/O coaches.

Billy Dat
01-16-2013, 04:35 PM
When Rick Majerus died recently, I certainly had not appreciated how respected he was as a basketball mind. I think he's someone that other coaches, and other legit pundits, would call an excellent X and O coach. But, I am trying to think who else routinely gets put in that category? Is the criteria applied to the game plan, which is formulated ahead of time based on the opponent? Is it in-game tactics (substitutions, timeouts, adjustments made based on game flow and events)? What about coaches that are pure X and O innovators?

-All those Majerus obits said he was the ultimate game plan guy, that he'd force you to beat him with something aside from your bread and butter. K's adjustment to the Carlos Boozer injury in 2001 is probabky his crowning achievement in this area.

-When I think of in-game tactics, I always thought that Calhoun was very solid. This is an area where I think K has come the furthest.

-In terms of innovation, you've got guys like Pete Carrill, Beilein, Bo Ryan, etc. Even though Boomani Jones is always bashing Duke, I did hear him once credit K with the "innovation" that every play on a basketball court was a fierce battle worth waging and winning, which brought a consistent intensity of action that had no existed prior.

I think K's greatness in these 3 categories is that he may not be #1 on the list for any of them, but he is near the top of the list in all 3. There are certainly areas where he is the best - CDu mentioned motivation and I agree with that. I don't think there is anyone who is even a close second when it comes to overall stewardship of an entire program - he had the vision to basically endow the entire enterprise eventually ensuring its existence sans any financial help from the University, I don't think anyone else thinks on that level - probably because they lack the job security.

Chicago 1995
01-16-2013, 04:48 PM
Bo Ryan is terribly underrated on that list. Woefully.

Kedsy
01-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Maybe Allen Field House (never sure whether it's Field House or Fieldhouse, and I don't trust espn or wiki-anything here) is a better venue than Cameron. But what Kansas fans don't want you to know is that architecturally, the place *is* Cameron in every way, just bigger. We were first.

Well, I'd argue Cameron architecturally is very similar to the Palestra, here in Philadelphia. So, actually they were first.

tommy
01-16-2013, 06:05 PM
I agree that the panel was not as interesting as a poll of current coaches would be.

I think the knock on K's Xs and Os has usually been related to his preference for letting the players read and react rather then constantly calling out sets. As a result, he has often been blamed for in game under-coaching.

Yes, and at the same time he's criticized in other circles for being too controlling, too inflexible, resulting in the players having to conform to "the system" rather than playing freely. Which is the exact opposite of what is really going on in many respects, but still, Coach K gets it from both sides. Somehow the guy on the trail of 1000 career wins just can't get it right, I guess.

Nugget
01-16-2013, 06:12 PM
One other thing to remember about Cameron is that it's gotten so much hype over the last 20+ years that I think opposing players are now more excited to play there (and play well there) than they are when going into most other arenas, even including (I suspect) Allen.

One aspect of KU's home arena I'm jealous of is that they still open the windows for afternoon games. I always thought that it added to the intimacy of Cameron to randomly see sunlight streaming through.

crimsonandblue
01-16-2013, 06:17 PM
Sarcasm aside, the way the roofs and side walls are supported in both Cameron and AFH, with the curving interior buttresses that are essential to the structural integrity, are identical. There's also the way the lobbies at both ends open up onto the floor (and the way the public can access at least a small part of the floor), the way the lower/student level collapses, and the general design of the corridor and tunnels of the middle level of Allen, which would compare to the upper level of Cameron.

OK, Cameron doesn't have a third level (which in Allen looks much the same as the second, although as I recall it's just benches up there, no seats). And Allen isn't Gothic on the outside.

These are all rather unique design elements but are common to both buildings. And if it's not clear, comparing any building to Cameron is meant as a compliment.

I was mostly kidding. I've never been to Cameron and, unlike George Costanza, I won't claim to be an architect.

I understood Allen Fieldhouse was largely patterned after Ahearn Field House (opened by KState in 1950 and using the same contractor). It shares a lot of characteristics with Hinkle as well (the windows). As I'm not an architect, I can't speak to your buttresses or ours, but I always thought Allen's were more peaked, while Cameron's and Hinkle's more round, but I'll happily defer to you or anyone else knowledgeable in the field. Stylistically, yours looks like a gothic school building, ours has more of a barn shape.

Anyway, I would never take a comparison to Cameron as an insult. Both are great venues. Hopefully both survive for my lifetime and beyond (at the least, I don't wanna know about any replacement).

moonpie23
01-16-2013, 06:51 PM
i thought i had overlooked it....but i found Roy

Newton_14
01-16-2013, 10:52 PM
The Greatest Play In College Basketball History started with the question, "Grant, can you throw it 80 feet?" That's good enough for me. Not to mention "Special", telling Brian Zoubek to miss his second free throw and telling the team to "just play" when down 21 in the first half of a national semifinal. Hey, that's all our national titles. No wait, only three of them and the privilege of getting blown out by unlv.

Maybe Allen Field House (never sure whether it's Field House or Fieldhouse, and I don't trust espn or wiki-anything here) is a better venue than Cameron. But what Kansas fans don't want you to know is that architecturally, the place *is* Cameron in every way, just bigger. We were first.

Great points, and I will add one. At the final Timeout in the Butler game with 13 seconds left nursing the one point lead and Butler with the ball, K had the following quote "Just be you! Being You is enough". One of our fine posters has that quote as his signature actually.

I will say this though. As much as I hate it, in terms of drawing up a play with only a few seconds left to go in a game and needing a bucket to tie or win it, Dean Smith was the absolute best ever. They always got the look they wanted, seemingly every single time. It would just come down to whether or not the kid made the shot. It was maddening to watch. One of my best friends from High School spent 4 years on the bench at UNC as a student manager. In a NCAA Tourney game against Cincy, UNC called timeout in a tie game with under 2 seconds left. My friend said that Dean drew up a play for I believe Brian Reese to catch the inbounds pass in the middle of the lane behind a screen from Eric Montross. Dean told him that "You cannot try to dunk it Brian. You won't have enough time. Just lay it in. The play worked perfectly just as Dean designed it, but alas Reese tried to dunk it. Didn't get it out of his hand in time, and missed the dunk to boot.

I hated the guy, but he was a master at drawing up game tying or winning plays at the end.

CDu
01-16-2013, 11:02 PM
Great points, and I will add one. At the final Timeout in the Butler game with 13 seconds left nursing the one point lead and Butler with the ball, K had the following quote "Just be you! Being You is enough". One of our fine posters has that quote as his signature actually.

I will say this though. As much as I hate it, in terms of drawing up a play with only a few seconds left to go in a game and needing a bucket to tie or win it, Dean Smith was the absolute best ever. They always got the look they wanted, seemingly every single time. It would just come down to whether or not the kid made the shot. It was maddening to watch. One of my best friends from High School spent 4 years on the bench at UNC as a student manager. In a NCAA Tourney game against Cincy, UNC called timeout in a tie game with under 2 seconds left. My friend said that Dean drew up a play for I believe Brian Reese to catch the inbounds pass in the middle of the lane behind a screen from Eric Montross. Dean told him that "You cannot try to dunk it Brian. You won't have enough time. Just lay it in. The play worked perfectly just as Dean designed it, but alas Reese tried to dunk it. Didn't get it out of his hand in time, and missed the dunk to boot.

I hated the guy, but he was a master at drawing up game tying or winning plays at the end.

On a similar note, we all know that Webber's timeout was key in winning Smith his second title. What many don't know is that Smith had a lot to do with it.

Smith told his team, before the final possession, to under no circumstances allow Michigan to get Jalen Rose the ball. The Heels swarmed Rose when Webber got the ball. Webber proceeded to travel as he initially tried to pass to Rose. When he realized Rose was covered, he panicked. He raced up court, where he got trapped on the sideline. Then he called the infamous timeout.

All driven by the foresight to force someone other than Rose to make the play.

roywhite
01-16-2013, 11:09 PM
El-Deano > Ole Roy

Roy has accomplished a lot and put together some fine teams, but gotta give the edge to Dean on strategy, tactics, public relations, and consistency.

QMany
01-17-2013, 11:04 AM
Take the Home Court arena ranking with a grain of salt.
Jason King lives in Olathe, KS (20 miles from Lawrence) and works for the KC Star.

I mean, c'mon, Wichita State is #7.

TexHawk
01-17-2013, 12:09 PM
Take the Home Court arena ranking with a grain of salt.
Jason King lives in Olathe, KS (20 miles from Lawrence) and works for the KC Star.

I mean, c'mon, Wichita State is #7.

Jason King worked at the KC Star many years ago, before going national to Yahoo, then ESPN. (Btw, the KC Star is far, far from a shill for KU.) He attended Baylor.

Have you seen a game at Koch Arena? It can get pretty crazy at times. It's not surprising, many mid-majors have great home courts (Gonzaga, Butler).

luvdahops
01-17-2013, 12:55 PM
El-Deano > Ole Roy

Roy has accomplished a lot and put together some fine teams, but gotta give the edge to Dean on strategy, tactics, public relations, and consistency.

Strategics, tactics and consistency for sure. I am not sure I would agree on PR though. While it is certainly no longer fashionable to "bash" Dean given his declining health, I must say that in his prime, Smith was frequently quite sanctimonius and condescending with the press. To anyone outside the "Carolina family", really. Other than the UNC homers, the ACC beat writers of the era generally couldn't stand him, nor could other coaches around the league. I think Dean's image would have suffered a lot under today's 24-7, internet-enabled media scrutiny. Maybe not to the extent Roy's has, but the difference is not as stark as some might perceive.

Indoor66
01-17-2013, 01:03 PM
Strategics, tactics and consistency for sure. I am not sure I would agree on PR though. While it is certainly no longer fashionable to "bash" Dean given his declining health, I must say that in his prime, Smith was frequently quite sanctimonius and condescending with the press. To anyone outside the "Carolina family", really. Other than the UNC homers, the ACC beat writers of the era generally couldn't stand him, nor could other coaches around the league. I think Dean's image would have suffered a lot under today's 24-7, internet-enabled media scrutiny. Maybe not to the extent Roy's has, but the difference is not as stark as some might perceive.

I was very close to several unc players from the 60's and 70's many of them quietly loathed Smith. They said he was two faced whiner. I knew Smith socially and professionally and found him to be very distant and, frankly, not very friendly. Not someone with whom I wanted to have a beer - school affiliations aside.

luvdahops
01-17-2013, 01:17 PM
I was very close to several unc players from the 60's and 70's many of them quietly loathed Smith. They said he was two faced whiner. I knew Smith socially and professionally and found him to be very distant and, frankly, not very friendly. Not someone with whom I wanted to have a beer - school affiliations aside.

Interesting and consistent with what I have heard about Dean as well. For all his faults, Roy has always struck me as a far more genuine guy. Not to mention someone you could have a beer with.

roywhite
01-17-2013, 01:20 PM
Strategics, tactics and consistency for sure. I am not sure I would agree on PR though. While it is certainly no longer fashionable to "bash" Dean given his declining health, I must say that in his prime, Smith was frequently quite sanctimonius and condescending with the press. To anyone outside the "Carolina family", really. Other than the UNC homers, the ACC beat writers of the era generally couldn't stand him, nor could other coaches around the league. I think Dean's image would have suffered a lot under today's 24-7, internet-enabled media scrutiny. Maybe not to the extent Roy's has, but the difference is not as stark as some might perceive.

No inside knowledge of the media's opinion of Dean at the time, but as I recall, he generally got very favorable media coverage, particularly in-state.

davekay1971
01-17-2013, 01:32 PM
From the article on most overrated coaches, the writer relaying a conversation he had with Roy Williams: "We were sitting inside the Dean Smith Center, and I asked why, after all these years, he still works so hard in recruiting, because he does -- and I think most would back me on this -- still work really hard recruiting. Williams' answer always stuck with me. Basically, he said he still recruits hard because he thinks of himself as a good coach but not as a great coach, and that he never wants to have to find out if he's good enough to win with average players."

How telling is that statement now? Williams has had "average" players (actually good players...but no great ones) 2 seasons - 2010 and 2013.

The dirt isn't on the 2013 season yet, but it's not looking good. In 2005, Williams had a great team. In 2009 he had an even better team. The man is a good coach when he has great talent. And he deserves some credit for putting together the 2009 team and, yes, developing that team (which was a heck of alot better in 2009 than it was in 2007, with the same core of players). But, as we've noted on this board, Coach K has taken teams with good players but no great ones, and won the ACC regular season, the ACC tournament, had 25+ win seasons, etc. K knows he can win with "average" players.

Part of Roy's frustration in 2010 may have been finding out that he's NOT good enough to win with "average" players.

crimsonandblue
01-17-2013, 02:59 PM
From the article on most overrated coaches, the writer relaying a conversation he had with Roy Williams: "We were sitting inside the Dean Smith Center, and I asked why, after all these years, he still works so hard in recruiting, because he does -- and I think most would back me on this -- still work really hard recruiting. Williams' answer always stuck with me. Basically, he said he still recruits hard because he thinks of himself as a good coach but not as a great coach, and that he never wants to have to find out if he's good enough to win with average players."

How telling is that statement now? Williams has had "average" players (actually good players...but no great ones) 2 seasons - 2010 and 2013.

The dirt isn't on the 2013 season yet, but it's not looking good. In 2005, Williams had a great team. In 2009 he had an even better team. The man is a good coach when he has great talent. And he deserves some credit for putting together the 2009 team and, yes, developing that team (which was a heck of alot better in 2009 than it was in 2007, with the same core of players). But, as we've noted on this board, Coach K has taken teams with good players but no great ones, and won the ACC regular season, the ACC tournament, had 25+ win seasons, etc. K knows he can win with "average" players.

Part of Roy's frustration in 2010 may have been finding out that he's NOT good enough to win with "average" players.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/images/kansas_1991_00000008978.jpg

Roy did coach before UNC. The team above lost to Duke in the title game.

Roy can coach. At some point (2002-ish at KU), he seemed to shift fully to a system that aimed to overwhelm teams with speed and scoring punch, but the man coached up some just "good" players to two final fours ('91 and '93) before he flipped the switch to full speed, hair on fire basketball.

English
01-17-2013, 04:18 PM
Well, it's a list compiled of 5 sportswriters' (i.e., not basketball experts') opinions. So I wouldn't read much into it Boeheim's lack of votes.

Not for nothing, but when the CBSSports poll of coaches came out months ago, it was pretty quickly dismissed around here as subjective, potentially sour grapes with little value. By their very nature, these "Who's the best/worst/underrated/overrated" polls are subjective.

We could also argue about who qualifies to provide opinion on college basketball on the interwebs. Sure, nobody is signing up for hoops summer camps from the brain trust at the CBB page of ESPN.com, but these people write about the college basketball landscape and chat with those who run it on a daily basis. The five people who are giving their opinions here aren't exactly the guys talking around your office water cooler. I disagree with about 50% of every ESPN chat and article on the site, but I certainly understand the utility of it. To dismiss it, and dismiss others that discuss it, offhand as useless misses the point of sports message boards. To take it personally equally misses the point, but the point is the discussion and debate.

I tend to get frustrated by this line of thinking around DBR from time to time. Without fail, any discussion of college hoops rankings or opinion polls (and often recruiting speculation, roster/minutes discussions) devolves into a series of comments about how they're completely useless and subjective. Untrue, if you just accept that some people enjoy talking about sports, about how their teams should be ranked higher, other teams ranked lower, about the best/worst coaches and players, about the NBA prospects of certain players, then the discussions have utility--not tangible, but half the fun of the season is talking through things that don't really matter in any practical sense. If we all reserved our DBR conversations to things that ACTUALLY matter or are based in empirical fact, this place would be pretty dull.

CDu, I apologize, this isn't completely aimed at you, but your dismissal just stirred a (perhaps misguided) rant that's been marinating.

hurleyfor3
01-17-2013, 04:32 PM
Roy can coach. At some point (2002-ish at KU), he seemed to shift fully to a system that aimed to overwhelm teams with speed and scoring punch, but the man coached up some just "good" players to two final fours ('91 and '93) before he flipped the switch to full speed, hair on fire basketball.

As I recall, Roy originally ran Kansas was unc west, in terms of playing style and philosophy (emphasis on seniors, frontcourt depth if not overwhelming talent, ball control etc). There was a lot of commentary during the 1991 final four that unc was playing a mirror image of itself.

So Roy sucks because he stopped trying to be like Dean. So conflicted here.

CDu
01-17-2013, 07:44 PM
CDu, I apologize, this isn't completely aimed at you, but your dismissal just stirred a (perhaps misguided) rant that's been marinating.

No offense taken. You make very fair points. I agree: for the purposes of stirring discussion (which it has done), the list has merit. I just wouldn't take that list as evidence of anything other than a composite of five sports fans' opinions. But, as you said, if it stirs an interesting debate, it has some use.

crimsonandblue
01-18-2013, 11:13 AM
As I recall, Roy originally ran Kansas was unc west, in terms of playing style and philosophy (emphasis on seniors, frontcourt depth if not overwhelming talent, ball control etc). There was a lot of commentary during the 1991 final four that unc was playing a mirror image of itself.

So Roy sucks because he stopped trying to be like Dean. So conflicted here.

If it makes you feel better, when struggling, Roy always maintains that they are doing things identically to how they've always done it, down to the practice schedule, the minute-by-minute day plan, etc. I don't see how that can be true, although Roy's teams have always been high scoring. There seemed to be a decided shift, but maybe that was Roy just finding the mix of players he prefers for the system he's always run.

So, I think Roy would say he's still trying to be Dean. If you trust Roy, you can still transpose him with the Schnoz.

Indoor66
01-18-2013, 01:09 PM
If it makes you feel better, when struggling, Roy always maintains that they are doing things identically to how they've always done it, down to the practice schedule, the minute-by-minute day plan, etc. I don't see how that can be true, although Roy's teams have always been high scoring. There seemed to be a decided shift, but maybe that was Roy just finding the mix of players he prefers for the system he's always run.

So, I think Roy would say he's still trying to be Dean. If you trust Roy, you can still transpose him with the Schnoz.

There is only ONE Schnoz and his name is not dean. It is Jimmy.

Lunchab1es
01-18-2013, 01:58 PM
There is only ONE Schnoz

And it tastes like Schnozberries.

I'm happy to see K top the list, but count me as one who was surprised at how little love Boeheim, McKillop, and to a lesser extent Bo Ryan got. Pleased as punch that Roy got 0 :D

Troublemaker
01-20-2013, 02:22 AM
Another link to add to this X's and O's discussion: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/33065/coaching-survey-smartest-guys-around . Needless to say, other coaches respect Coach K's acumen greatly.

I'm also trying to find an old CNN/SI players poll about whom the smartest coach around is. Coach K won by a ridiculous margin, garnering at least 3 times as many votes as second place. One of the players commented something to the effect of, "Coach K is the smartest. When we played him, he knew everything we were going to run."

Generally speaking, Coach K's X's/O's ability is very underrated. He's probably the best at that, too.

Legend.