Sports Illustrated Midseason All-Americans: Mason 1st Team, Seth 3rd

[vick]

This actually came out a right before the NC State game, but I didn't see it posted anywhere. Thought it worth mentioning that SI.com released its midseason All-America team (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130111/midseason-all-americans/):

First Team:

Trey Burke, Michigan
Russ Smith, Louisville
Doug McDermott, Creighton
Mason Plumlee, Duke
Jeff Withey, Kansas


Second Team:

C. J. McCollum, Lehigh
Michael Carter-Williams, Syracuse
Anthony Bennett, UNLV
Jack Cooley, Notre Dame
Cody Zeller, Indiana


Third Team:

Brandon Paul, Illinois
Phil Pressey, Missouri
Ben McLemore, Kansas
Seth Curry, Duke
Mike Muscala, Bucknell


Not surprised, of course, that Mason is listed as a first teamer, and am happy to see that Seth, who I view as one of the most inexplicably under-appreciated players I can remember at Duke, is rightfully getting recognition as one of the top performing college basketball players in America this season.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Very glad to see Seth Curry getting recognition. He's one of the most underrated players in the nation IMO. I also would have liked/expected Ryan to be on one of these lists as well before he got hurt. :confused:

[sporthenry]

Very glad to see Seth Curry getting recognition. He's one of the most underrated players in the nation IMO. I also would have liked/expected Ryan to be on one of these lists as well before he got hurt. :confused:

So you think Duke has 3 of the top 15 players in college basketball? I like Kelly but there aren't enough numbers to go around and Duke is 1 of 2 teams to even have 2 guys on this list. I would say Seth is closer to being off the list than Kelly is to being on the list.

[JNort]

So you think Duke has 3 of the top 15 players in college basketball? I like Kelly but there aren't enough numbers to go around and Duke is 1 of 2 teams to even have 2 guys on this list. I would say Seth is closer to being off the list than Kelly is to being on the list.

No maybe not but some of those guys are not top 15 either. Just because they made this list does not make them top 15 caliber. Ask any coach in the country who would you rather have McDermott or Zeller? I would say 95% or better would easily take Zeller and according to what you posted Zeller is not a top 15 guy but McDermott is.

I think this is why Kelly isn't on here as well as other guys like Trey Burke or CJ leslie.

Fair assessment but if I made these lists I would nt have put Curry on it and Kelly would have. Not to many pf's affect the game like he does, he is a rare talent and people have seen how valuable he is to this team. Kelly just doesn't get the love due to: He isn't outspoken, he doesn't have the "Big Name" (ala Rivers, Curry, Zeller), not highlight reel type of guy, and does not have the story like other guys on the team:

Curry: has his brothers reputation, dads reputation, freshmen year a Liberty was a top scorer, not highly thought of coming out of highschool.

Cook: big turnaround season after last year, torn acl slowed his development, gets credited a lot for why Duke improved so much after Rivers left

Mason: NPOY candidate, one of the top 3 Centers in college right now, improved FT%, one of the most improved guy all around in college

Rasheed: Freshmen starter at Duke, scores well within the offensive flow of the team, FRESHMEN (aka shiny new toy)

[JNort]

Kelly sort of reminds me of Dirk Nowitzki in the fact that they are stretch fours who are actually good and can make an impact. They don't get a lot of love or recognition from the media (not like they should anyway) but they are essential to their teams success and championship hopes. Dirk is obviously highly thought of but usually overlooked at least until he got into the finals against the Heat.

[wk2109]

No maybe not but some of those guys are not top 15 either. Just because they made this list does not make them top 15 caliber. Ask any coach in the country who would you rather have McDermott or Zeller? I would say 95% or better would easily take Zeller and according to what you posted Zeller is not a top 15 guy but McDermott is.

I think this is why Kelly isn't on here as well as other guys like Trey Burke or CJ leslie.

Fair assessment but if I made these lists I would nt have put Curry on it and Kelly would have. Not to many pf's affect the game like he does, he is a rare talent and people have seen how valuable he is to this team. Kelly just doesn't get the love due to: He isn't outspoken, he doesn't have the "Big Name" (ala Rivers, Curry, Zeller), not highlight reel type of guy, and does not have the story like other guys on the team:

Curry: has his brothers reputation, dads reputation, freshmen year a Liberty was a top scorer, not highly thought of coming out of highschool.

Cook: big turnaround season after last year, torn acl slowed his development, gets credited a lot for why Duke improved so much after Rivers left

Mason: NPOY candidate, one of the top 3 Centers in college right now, improved FT%, one of the most improved guy all around in college

Rasheed: Freshmen starter at Duke, scores well within the offensive flow of the team, FRESHMEN (aka shiny new toy)

Trey Burke (1st team) and Cody Zeller (2nd team) are on the list.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of consensus on who has been Duke's second-best player this season -- you could make very good arguments for Seth, Ryan, and Quinn. I think Seth might be the most obvious choice for this national spotlight type of list because he's scored the most (16.4 ppg, 4th in ACC) and has carried the team offensively for stretches, all while playing on a bad leg and not getting to practice.

If anyone deserves two guys on the list, it's Duke. And who better to put on the list than the top two scorers and perhaps the best inside-outside offensive duo in the country.

[JNort]

Trey Burke (1st team) and Cody Zeller (2nd team) are on the list.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of consensus on who has been Duke's second-best player this season -- you could make very good arguments for Seth, Ryan, and Quinn. I think Seth might be the most obvious choice for this national spotlight type of list because he's scored the most (16.4 ppg, 4th in ACC) and has carried the team offensively for stretches, all while playing on a bad leg and not getting to practice.

If anyone deserves two guys on the list, it's Duke. And who better to put on the list than the top two scorers and perhaps the best inside-outside offensive duo in the country.

I didn't mean to put Trey Burke I meant Tim Hardaway Jr my bad. Correct Zeller is on the list but 2nd team not 1st Like Doug.

[JNort]

I think Seth might be the most obvious choice for this national spotlight type of list because he's scored the most (16.4 ppg, 4th in ACC) and has carried the team offensively for stretches, all while playing on a bad leg and not getting to practice.


And I would say that Kelly is much more valuable/important in the fact that it's easier to play a game without Curry rather than Kelly. I do agree he is the more obvious choice for a national spotlight but that is due to the other things I listed along with his scoring. If Kelly's last name was Nowitzki and he was the one leading the team in shots (currently 5th) then he would be the one being chosen.

[wk2109]

And I would say that Kelly is much more valuable/important in the fact that it's easier to play a game without Curry rather than Kelly. I do agree he is the more obvious choice for a national spotlight but that is due to the other things I listed along with his scoring. If Kelly's last name was Nowitzki and he was the one leading the team in shots (currently 5th) then he would be the one being chosen.

This goes back to the old question of what criteria do you use for MVP (importance to team vs. total production). I agree that it's harder to replace Ryan than to replace Seth, but what if Tyler weren't on the team or if Josh were 2 inches taller and a knock-down three-point shooter? Then the "importance" factor would swing in Seth's direction.

It's nationally known by now that Ryan Kelly is irreplaceable, but I don't know if that necessarily makes Ryan Duke's second-best player without a doubt.

[CDu]

If I were to put together the list, I'd have (in no particular order):

Mason Plumlee
Tyler Haws
Geoff McDermott
Erick Green
CJ McCollum (won't be on the final list due to injury, but for the first half he should be there)
Deshaun Thomas
Anthony Bennett
Isaiah Canaan
Jamaal Franklin
Trey Burke
Lorenzo Brown
Michael Carter-Williams
Jeff Withey
Cody Zeller

That's 14. From there, I could see an argument for Russ Smith, Ben McLemore, or Nate Wolters as my #15.

[JNort]

This goes back to the old question of what criteria do you use for MVP (importance to team vs. total production). I agree that it's harder to replace Ryan than to replace Seth, but what if Tyler weren't on the team or if Josh were 2 inches taller and a knock-down three-point shooter? Then the "importance" factor would swing in Seth's direction.

It's nationally known by now that Ryan Kelly is irreplaceable, but I don't know if that necessarily makes Ryan Duke's second-best player without a doubt.

Well this is what would make for a good argument. It all depends on how you define best really and what you value and how your team is structured. To me it comes down to Cook, Kelly and Mason because Seth and Sheed are easiest to replace (take that easiest term lightly). Next I look at how this team functions and its all about ball movement and and spacing. Ball movement and spacing can be difficult to determine on who affects it the most because Cook is the only one on the team who can run point at an ability high enough to take a team to the next level, Kelly brings a 4th defender to the arc to free up the middle man, but Mason demands a double inside. Mason however can hurt your team late in game because of FT shooting, Ryan even with his size is not a good rebounder and Cook can still be a little immature in his decision making as a basketball player.

If you go by stat sheet then by my simple formula (very simple): Mason, Ryan, Cook, Curry, Sheed in that order provide the most per game


Lol the "formula" was just a +1 for every point, rebound, assist, steal, block and -2 for every TO. I did round off all stats. Of course its not terribly precise because of mins played and roles they are asked to play. I just use it for quick reference and it actually supported this time who I value the most

[rsvman]

.... Ask any coach in the country who would you rather have McDermott or Zeller? I would say 95% or better would easily take Zeller



I don't know about this. I guess it would depend on your team's specific needs. I'm not a college basketball coach, so my vote doesn't really count, but I'd take McDermott all day every day over Zeller, and my guess is that your "95%" is a vastly higher that what the actual figure would be were such a question to be posed to college basketball coaches.

[davekay1971]

I'm just surprised UNC didn't have the obligatory "because we pay attention to hype, not actual basketball" player on the list. My, how the mighty have fallen!

[Kedsy]

To me it comes down to Cook, Kelly and Mason because Seth and Sheed are easiest to replace (take that easiest term lightly).

I think your analysis is oversimplistic. The main reason our team has been so good this year is because all of our starters bring an A+ at something and there's not too much overlap. Quinn = PG skills, Mason = inside beast, Seth = lights out shooter, Rasheed = defensive glue, Ryan = jack-of-all-trades, master-of-(pretty much)-all-trades.

In other words none of them are anywhere close to easy to replace. Rasheed (along with Ryan's defensive improvement) is what makes our defense so much better than last year. As much of a bulldog as he is, Tyler (as a starter) can't come much close to replacing that or Seth's shooting (and crafty scoring), any more than Amile or Josh can replace Ryan's floor-stretching abilities and defense.

[JNort]

I don't know about this. I guess it would depend on your team's specific needs. I'm not a college basketball coach, so my vote doesn't really count, but I'd take McDermott all day every day over Zeller, and my guess is that your "95%" is a vastly higher that what the actual figure would be were such a question to be posed to college basketball coaches.

Im saying if every team had 0 players on the roster and you got to pick your first player and it had to be between those two. Like a fantasy draft type of deal. I actually though that 95% was low lol.

It was discussed in another thread (The Seth curry 1,000 point?) but McDermott is racking up those stats at a weaker school against weaker competition where he is the guy in almost every trip down the court. He would not be puting up number remotely close to that had he been a Duke, UL, UK, KU, UNC, or NCSU player. Thats not to mention Indiana and several others

[CDu]

Im saying if every team had 0 players on the roster and you got to pick your first player and it had to be between those two. Like a fantasy draft type of deal. I actually though that 95% was low lol.

Sure, but that's not how these things are ever awarded.


It was discussed in another thread (The Seth curry 1,000 point?) but McDermott is racking up those stats at a weaker school against weaker competition where he is the guy in almost every trip down the court. He would not be puting up number remotely close to that had he been a Duke, UL, UK, KU, UNC, or NCSU player. Thats not to mention Indiana and several others

McDermott is is currently shooting 56.8% from the floor and 50.5% from 3 pt range. That includes a 30-point game at Wisconsin. It is true that lots of his stats have come against mid-major competition, but he's been very productive in all of his games against major conference foes. Last year he went for 20 against UNC last year, 16 against Alabama, 25 against San Diego St (not a major conference team but an elite mid-major), 25 against Iowa, and 24 against Nebraska.

Between his production against good teams and his incredible scoring efficiency, I think you should probably drop the "big fish in a small pond" argument. The kid is a really really good college player, and would be really really good on a major conference team too.

[roywhite]

C.J. Leslie?

16+ points/ game
7+ rebounds/game
58% FG

He's got a shot at ACC POY; isn't he somewhere in the top 15 nationally?

[JNort]

I think your analysis is oversimplistic. The main reason our team has been so good this year is because all of our starters bring an A+ at something and there's not too much overlap. Quinn = PG skills, Mason = inside beast, Seth = lights out shooter, Rasheed = defensive glue, Ryan = jack-of-all-trades, master-of-(pretty much)-all-trades.

In other words none of them are anywhere close to easy to replace. Rasheed (along with Ryan's defensive improvement) is what makes our defense so much better than last year. As much of a bulldog as he is, Tyler (as a starter) can't come much close to replacing that or Seth's shooting (and crafty scoring), any more than Amile or Josh can replace Ryan's floor-stretching abilities and defense.

Precisely why I said it was just simple way to look at it. Also I said to take the term "easiest to replace" very lightly because of the reasons you said. However I would rather lose Seth than Quinn, Ryan or Mason not that I want us to lose anyone mind you. I feel it to be easier to replace the scoring by Curry than the pg duties of Quinn, the stretch ability of Ryan and the absolute beast that is Mason. But again this is just how I would feel as a coach or Duke analyst.

[JNort]

Sure, but that's not how these things are ever awarded.



McDermott is is currently shooting 56.8% from the floor and 50.5% from 3 pt range. That includes a 30-point game at Wisconsin. It is true that lots of his stats have come against mid-major competition, but he's been very productive in all of his games against major conference foes. Last year he went for 20 against UNC last year, 16 against Alabama, 25 against San Diego St (not a major conference team but an elite mid-major), 25 against Iowa, and 24 against Nebraska.

Between his production against good teams and his incredible scoring efficiency, I think you should probably drop the "big fish in a small pond" argument. The kid is a really really good college player, and would be really really good on a major conference team too.

I never said they were, I merely was expressing the belief that he is not better than Zeller. This discussion remind me of a couple year ago when Jimmer was in school and everyone was talking about NPOY honors going to Kemba, Jimmer or Nolan. Jimmer imo is not even close to those guys. Same goes this year for McCollum and McDermott.

You don't think all those stats wouldn't drop playing on a bigger name program in a more competitive conference? No denying the second bolded part either just he would't produce close to those levels.

Again see the Curry thread but their was a discussion talking about Stephen at Davidson and his accomplishments but how he was not better than J-Will. Imagine J at Davidson for three years!

[1 24 90]

I guess Harrison Barnes was only in the "also receiving votes" section. :p

[CDu]

I never said they were, I merely was expressing the belief that he is not better than Zeller. This discussion remind me of a couple year ago when Jimmer was in school and everyone was talking about NPOY honors going to Kemba, Jimmer or Nolan. Jimmer imo is not even close to those guys. Same goes this year for McCollum and McDermott.

You don't think all those stats wouldn't drop playing on a bigger name program in a more competitive conference? No denying the second bolded part either just he would't produce close to those levels.

Again see the Curry thread but their was a discussion talking about Stephen at Davidson and his accomplishments but how he was not better than J-Will. Imagine J at Davidson for three years!

Sure, McDermott's count stats would be lower if he played for a major conference team. But his unreal efficiency (in spite of being the main option and focus of the opponents' defense) is even more impressive in that context. Whether he'd be a 15 ppg guy or a 19-20 ppg guy depends on the team, but the efficiency with which he's doing this in spite of being Creighton's #1 option is very very impressive.

Do I think McDermott is as good as Zeller? No. Does that matter with regard to discussion about these awards? Not really.

As for McCollum, I think you're wrong. I'd argue that he's one of the top-15 talents in the country and will be a lottery pick (assuming he's healthy in time for the combine).

[JNort]

Sure, McDermott's count stats would be lower if he played for a major conference team. But his unreal efficiency (in spite of being the main option and focus of the opponents' defense) is even more impressive in that context. Whether he'd be a 15 ppg guy or a 19-20 ppg guy depends on the team, but the efficiency with which he's doing this in spite of being Creighton's #1 option is very very impressive.

Do I think McDermott is as good as Zeller? No. Does that matter with regard to discussion about these awards? Not really.

As for McCollum, I think you're wrong. I'd argue that he's one of the top-15 talents in the country and will be a lottery pick (assuming he's healthy in time for the combine).

I'm not denying his efficiency or that he shouldn't be in the running for these awards just that he is not a top 15 player which to me means if every college player was in a gigantic pool and teams took turns picking until they had a full roster he would not be a top 15 pick.

I may be wrong about McCollum I haven't got to see him as much. However if I was a coach I could think of 15 players I would take over him easily.

[CDu]

I'm not denying his efficiency or that he shouldn't be in the running for these awards just that he is not a top 15 player which to me means if every college player was in a gigantic pool and teams took turns picking until they had a full roster he would not be a top 15 pick.

And I return to my previous point: why does it matter that he may or may not be one of the 15 most talented players in the country if that isn't what the award is about?


I may be wrong about McCollum I haven't got to see him as much. However if I was a coach I could think of 15 players I would take over him easily.

If you haven't seen him play much, why would you think there are "easily" 15 better players than McCollum? And why would you think such an opinion (based on such incomplete information) is accurate?

McCollum is currently projected to be a lottery pick. That would suggest to me that NBA folks think highly of his talent relative to the rest of college ball. One could argue over which guards are the best, but to say that there are "easily" 15 guys better than McCollum is, I think, fairly inaccurate.

[sagegrouse]

I'm not denying his efficiency or that he shouldn't be in the running for these awards just that he is not a top 15 player which to me means if every college player was in a gigantic pool and teams took turns picking until they had a full roster he would not be a top 15 pick.

I may be wrong about McCollum I haven't got to see him as much. However if I was a coach I could think of 15 players I would take over him easily.

If I were K, I would pick McCollum -- that way, he wouldn't have been on the Lehigh team. --sage

[JNort]

And I return to my previous point: why does it matter that he may or may not be one of the 15 most talented players in the country if that isn't what the award is about?



If you haven't seen him play much, why would you think there are "easily" 15 better players than McCollum? And why would you think such an opinion (based on such incomplete information) is accurate?

McCollum is currently projected to be a lottery pick. That would suggest to me that NBA folks think highly of his talent relative to the rest of college ball. One could argue over which guards are the best, but to say that there are "easily" 15 guys better than McCollum is, I think, fairly inaccurate.

It doesn't I was expressing my opinion of literal top 15 players.

NBA is a different animal than college and not to be used as a comparison between college players. If they were comparable then Jon Schyer would have been a first round pick, Adam Morrison would be an offensive scoring machine, etc...

I also said I "haven't seen him much" not at all. I also haven't seen many other players much but from what I have seen would take them over him. Not trying to diminish him in anyway what so ever though. I just have a higher regard for at least 15 other guys.

[JNort]

If I were K, I would pick McCollum -- that way, he wouldn't have been on the Lehigh team. --sage

Hmm well put it that way then yes I agree McCollum would have been a top pick.