This Week in the ACC - 1/14-1/20

[pfrduke]

We're 1/6 of the way through the conference season and NC State and Miami find themselves sharing the top of the standings, both out to their best conference starts in many years (in Miami's case, in its entire tenure in the ACC). They've rode opposite horses to get there (small sample size alert), with NC State riding the best offense in conference play (115.8 points per possession) while the Canes have put up the best defense (0.80 points per possession). If you like efficiency, though (and you know I do), Duke still holds the top spot in conference play, sporting an efficiency margin of 0.20 points per possession, a shade better than both the Pack and the Canes (this is not adjusted, though, and is certainly boosted by Duke's having gotten home contests against Clemson and Wake). Among the surprising starts to the season include Wake Forest sitting on a 2-1 record while Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland have fallen to 1-2.

This week is the lightest week in conference play, with 8 of the 12 getting a bye (why the bye is coming so early in the season for so many is beyond me). That means just 4 midweek games and 4 weekend contests.

Monday was dark

Tuesday Clemson hosts Wake at 7. Let's not be fooled by the Deacons' record. They eked out 3-point home wins over BC and Virginia, the latter of which lost to these same Clemson Tigers in Clemson by 15. Wake is still not likely to experience much success this year. Nonetheless, it's as winnable a road game as they're likely to see this year, and if they can get CJ Harris or Travis McKie hot, they may be able to outscore a very offensively challenged Clemson team.

[76]Clemson hosts [139]Wake Forest

Wednesday is the "busy" day of the midweek with a couple of 7:00 tilts featuring the conference leaders hitting the road. NC State has the tougher of the matchups, taking on a Maryland team that is desperate for a quality win after a couple of losses back to back. Miami has it much easier (to the extent the road in conference play is ever easy), traveling up to Chestnut Hill. My bet is at least one of the teams ends up 4-0.

[57]Maryland hosts [28]NC State
[131]Boston College hosts [19]Miami

Thursday puts Duke back at home against Georgia Tech, the ACC's only winless squad. More will be said about this game elsewhere, but also worth noting is that this will be Duke's 4th straight ACC game with more rest than its opponent (it'll be the last, as Miami also has the weekend off before next Wednesday's game).

[4]Duke hosts [92]Georgia Tech

Friday is dark.

Saturday offers Maryland another chance for a win over a Tobacco Road team when they head to UNC for a noon contest. Carolina is looking for its first home win of conference play (heh). Wake once again has a winnable road game when it heads to Blacksburg to take on the Hokies at 2. Wake certainly has long odds of winning both games this week; that being said, it's legitimately conceivable that they could show up on the road against the league's other bottom feeders and find themselves at 4-1 this time next week. Finally, Virginia and FSU, both of which have had a week off to lick their wounds from weekend losses, hit the floor at the JPJ at 4. I think it's safe to say we're in for a low scoring game.

[50]North Carolina hosts [57]Maryland
[148]Virginia Tech hosts [139]Wake Forest
[47]Virginia hosts [68]Florida State

Sunday night action puts NC State back at home against Clemson. Depending on how they do in Maryland, given Miami's weekend off the Pack could be playing for first place all by their lonesome.

[28]NC State hosts [76]Clemson

ACC Non-Conference Record: 115-37
ACC vs. BCS Opponents: 19-18
(note - now that non-conference play is done the detailed record by conference won't be re-posted until we hit tournament play).

[Olympic Fan]

You are right to point out that Duke has been getting more rest than its opponents.

And you are also right that the streak will end when Duke goes to Miami next week.

But I would also like to point out that there's really little difference for that game -- Miami plays Wednesday, has the weekend off, then plays Duke on the next Wednesday. But Duke gets just one day less rest -- playing Thursday, getting the weekend off, then playing at Miami. The different between six and seven days is negligible. Maryland (which plays Tuesday next week) will also get one extra day's rest before playing Duke on Jan. 26. Since that's the difference between four and three days, that's a little more meaningful.

The only unfair situation I see this season will be when Duke plays at Maryland on Saturday Feb. 16. That's three days after the first Duke-UNC game on Wednesday, Feb. 13. Meanwhile Maryland has six days to prepare after playing Sunday, Feb. 10.

[Bob Green]

I checked the spread in Vegas and was surprised to see Maryland as a two points favorite over N.C. State. My expectation is State will win this game. The over/under is set at 149. The big unknown is whether or not State has a letdown after their emotional win over Duke. Personally, I believe they have too much experience with upperclassmen Howell, Wood, Leslie and Brown to let that happen. The Woofies will be focused on the task at hand.

[JasonEvans]

So, Clemson beat Wake 60-44 last night.

Wow, some ACC teams are just godawful on offense. I mean, I think this is the conference that couldn't shoot straight.

I know pace and other factors make points scored a pretty in-exact measure of success for teams, but I think it is generally hard to win a game where you score less than 65 points and you tend to win almost all the times you score more than 80. I am not suggesting those two numbers are sacrosanct or perfect, but they are benchmarks that I sometimes use when looking at scores. So, with that in mind, Here is each ACC team and the number of times they have scored more than 80 points in a game and number of times they have scored 65 or less.



NC St - 16 games. 10 times over 80. 1 time under 65.
Miami - 15 games. 1 time over 80. 5 times under 65.
Duke - 16 games. 6 times over 80. 0 times under 65.
FSU - 16 games. 4 times over 80. 4 times under 65.
Clemson - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 9 times under 65.
Wake - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 6 times under 65
Maryland - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 3 times under 65.
UNC - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 3 times under 65.
Virginia - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 10 times under 65.
Va Tech - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 1 time under 65.
BC - 16 games. 2 times over 80. 4 times under 65.
Ga Tech - 15 games. 0 times over 80. 8 times under 65.

Clemson and Virginia play again on Thursday Feb 7th. If the over/under on that game is over 110, I would bet the under in a heartbeat! When Ga Tech plays Virginia, if either team gets to 60, I will be shocked.

-Jason "not sure this served much, if any, purpose... but I wasted my time on it nonetheless" Evans

[CDu]

So, Clemson beat Wake 60-44 last night.

Wow, some ACC teams are just godawful on offense. I mean, I think this is the conference that couldn't shoot straight.

I know pace and other factors make points scored a pretty in-exact measure of success for teams, but I think it is generally hard to win a game where you score less than 65 points and you tend to win almost all the times you score more than 80. I am not suggesting those two numbers are sacrosanct or perfect, but they are benchmarks that I sometimes use when looking at scores. So, with that in mind, Here is each ACC team and the number of times they have scored more than 80 points in a game and number of times they have scored 65 or less.



NC St - 16 games. 10 times over 80. 1 time under 65.
Miami - 15 games. 1 time over 80. 5 times under 65.
Duke - 16 games. 6 times over 80. 0 times under 65.
FSU - 16 games. 4 times over 80. 4 times under 65.
Clemson - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 9 times under 65.
Wake - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 6 times under 65
Maryland - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 3 times under 65.
UNC - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 3 times under 65.
Virginia - 16 games. 1 time over 80. 10 times under 65.
Va Tech - 16 games. 5 times over 80. 1 time under 65.
BC - 16 games. 2 times over 80. 4 times under 65.
Ga Tech - 15 games. 0 times over 80. 8 times under 65.

Clemson and Virginia play again on Thursday Feb 7th. If the over/under on that game is over 110, I would bet the under in a heartbeat! When Ga Tech plays Virginia, if either team gets to 60, I will be shocked.

-Jason "not sure this served much, if any, purpose... but I wasted my time on it nonetheless" Evans

It's a bad, bad conference this year. NC State can score with anyone, but struggles on defense. Miami plays pretty slow but is not terrible on offense. And of course we are a pretty good scoring team. After those three teams though? I honestly couldn't say with confidence who the 4th best team in the conference is. Sadly, it might just be UNC. They're the

Ironically, one of the teams that used to be a defensive stalwart (FSU) is actually the 4th most efficient offensive team in the conference (#48 just ahead of Miami [53], and behind UNC [40]) but is pretty bad on defense. Strange year.

If we get more than 4 teams in the tournament, I'll be fairly surprised. I wouldn't be shocked if it was 3.

[CDu]

Nice to see State decided to finally show up against Maryland. They started off down 10-0 after 5 minutes, settling for lazy jumpers (and missing them, obviously). Fortunately for them, Maryland is TERRIBLE offensively. They virtually handed State their first four points with inept ballhandling, and they've missed numerous opportunities around the rim.

State is trying hard to lose - Maryland is trying just as hard to keep State in the game. 14-10 Maryland after 12 minutes.

[Bob Green]

With 38 total points scored in the 1st half, the under is looking good! I remain convinced State will win this game, but the Woofies have not been impressive so far.

[CDu]

Uggh, I hope you all aren't as dumb as I am, sitting here watching the NC State/Maryland game. This is awful. 22-16 at the half. That's right: Maryland has scored only 22 points at the half, shooting 30% from the field... and they're winning by 6!

This is classic State: show up for a big game against us, then come out flat the next game. They are not playing with nearly the effort that they showed against us. They have hit just 22% from the field.

I can't believe I'm going to watch the second half of this train wreck.

[roywhite]

The Pack not exactly playing like they did Saturday in Raleigh, eh?

Maybe they get it together in the second half, but this is not a good indicator for them in the post-season IMO. Makes one wonder about their consistency and the quality of their coaching.

[CDu]

The Pack not exactly playing like they did Saturday in Raleigh, eh?

Maybe they get it together in the second half, but this is not a good indicator for them in the post-season IMO. Makes one wonder about their consistency and the quality of their coaching.

Oh, I think Gottfried will get them motivated for the tournament. It's the "meaningless" regular season games for which he doesn't seem to be able to get their attention.

[Duvall]

If Maryland can only muster 22 points against N.C. State's 165th-ranked defense, then you have to wonder if they can score against anyone.

[roywhite]

Oh, I think Gottfried will get them motivated for the tournament. It's the "meaningless" regular season games for which he doesn't seem to be able to get their attention.

Even with your comment about the "meaningless" regular season game, you have a higher opinion of Gottfried as a coach than I do.

[Wander]

Oh, I think Gottfried will get them motivated for the tournament. It's the "meaningless" regular season games for which he doesn't seem to be able to get their attention.

Do we have a new Seth Greenburg?!

[CDu]

Even with your comment about the "meaningless" regular season game, you have a higher opinion of Gottfried as a coach than I do.

Well, he certainly got them motivated for the ACC tournament and NCAA tournament last year, didn't he?

I'm not saying he's a good coach. In fact, his inability to get his guys focused for regular season games is evidence that he's a limited coach. But he doesn't seem to have a problem getting them motivated for the big games.

Meanwhile, in the second half, it looks like State is getting it going. Now up to over 30% from the field (after just 5 minutes of the half) for the game, down only 2. Maryland is going to regret all those missed layups they've had in this game.

[CDu]

And... after a brief stretch of good offense (mostly by State, but some by Maryland), we're back to atrocious basketball. Maryland has missed countless layups/dunks in this game. They could be up by 20 right now. On the other side, State is just unwilling to do anything in the half court offense. They are great when they (more specifically Lorenzo Brown) can take it to the rim in transition. But aside from that, they've just looked awful tonight.

[cptnflash]

Maryland's offensive ineptitude is the only thing that has kept State in this game. That being said, State has played so poorly that they may yet lose. And BC is up 3 on Miami. Hopefully at least one of these scores holds up.

[CDu]

Maryland's offensive ineptitude is the only thing that has kept State in this game. That being said, State has played so poorly that they may yet lose. And BC is up 3 on Miami. Hopefully at least one of these scores holds up.

I would love it if both BC and Maryland hold on. I don't think Maryland will (they are just soooo bad, and I just believe that State's talent will get them through). But we'll see. Maryland up 2, with the ball with under 7 minutes left.

[CDu]

Wood has now hit 2 3s in a row. If Maryland doesn't score here (now down 3, trailing for the first time), it might be over for them. They've just blown too many chances, and can't expect State to continue to hand them the game.

[cptnflash]

I am going to throw up. I can't believe Maryland is giving this game away. 1 point State lead at the final media timeout. If Maryland could score at all, they would be up by 15. Alex Len MIA. Apparently he's not quite so good when they're not playing against cupcakes.

[CDu]

I am going to throw up. I can't believe Maryland is giving this game away. 1 point State lead at the final media timeout. If Maryland could score at all, they would be up by 15. Alex Len MIA. Apparently he's not quite so good when they're not playing against cupcakes.

Make no mistake. Maryland is not a very good basketball team. They've been fortunate that State is sleepwalking through this game, because they have no business competing with State.

Conversely, given that State has sleepwalked through this game, they are incredibly fortunate that Maryland stinks. Because they're probably going to win in spite of not showing up.

And yet, here we are: 12 seconds left, Maryland with the ball down 1.

[tbyers11]

Alex Len with the Lorenzo Charles like putback to lead NCSTATE with 0.9 sec left

FEAR THE TURTLE:cool:

[sporthenry]

Duke in control of their own destiny again. Hopefully, Duke can pull it together without Kelly.

[Duvall]

Duke in control of their own destiny again.

When was Duke not in control of its destiny? Also, the league champion will be determined in Greensboro, so it's not like it matters.

[davekay1971]

One day you storm the court, the next day the court is stormed on you.

[CDu]

Holy cow! State, with 2 fouls to give and only 5 seconds left (up 1), lets Maryland take a shot. Not only that, both Leslie and Howell go for the block (and miss), leaving Alex Len for a wide open tip in with 0.9 seconds left. State loses. Nice!

Not to be lost is how awful that game was. At least it was close and exciting at the end. But the actual quality of play was atrocious.

[FerryFor50]

Shocker. State loses after a big win. In other news, tomorrow is Thursday.

[cptnflash]

Maryland wins on a blown out of bounds play! And the fans storm the court! Apparently the standard of excellence is a little lower up in College Park. But hey, we'll take it. Way to go, Terps!

[CDu]

Shocker. State loses after a big win. In other news, tomorrow is Thursday.

Yeah, classic State. Get fired up for the big game, then don't show up for the next game. Well done, Pack. Well done.

[Newton_14]

And Maryland rushes the court. Unreal. State made a huge mistake not using that last foul with under 5 seconds. Way to lay an egg State. You in essence just gave the Duke win back. You didn't validate.

But, good for Duke. Pulls us back even with State and helps us in the ACC Regular Season race.

[CDu]

Maryland wins on a blown out of bounds play! And the fans storm the court! Apparently the standard of excellence is a little lower up in College Park. But hey, we'll take it. Way to go, Terps!

My lord that was a train wreck of a game. From start to finish, awful. And yet glorious.

[tbyers11]

Holy cow! State, with 2 fouls to give and only 5 seconds left (up 1), lets Maryland take a shot. Not only that, both Leslie and Howell go for the block (and miss), leaving Alex Len for a wide open tip in with 0.9 seconds left. State loses. Nice!

Not to be lost is how awful that game was. At least it was close and exciting at the end. But the actual quality of play was atrocious.

Agree that I would have tried to foul there but NCSTATE had to careful about Maryland going into the act of shooting. What was Leslie thinking trying to block that shot? He had no chance and left Len wide open.

[dukelifer]

Their first ACC road game. Maryland has two decent players and hang around - even if it because the game is ugly. I expect Maryland will play much better at home and be in most games against the bulk of the league and play their best when Duke comes to town. The Duke game is just different.

Maryland will make teams play ugly and on any given night can win. Tonight is a perfect example.

[Jderf]

One day you storm the court, the next day the court is stormed on you.

I'm not sure you can call it "storming the court" when the students were going to flood down the stairs and riot no matter the outcome.

[roywhite]

I'm not sure you can call it "storming the court" when the students were going to flood down the stairs and riot no matter the outcome.

Just getting ready for next year when they have those big rivalry games with Nebraska and Iowa.

[cptnflash]

No way he was going to make all 3 of those free throws. I'm actually surprised he made the first two.

[pfrduke]

Not to be outdone in the stupidity department, Miami claws its way back to go up 3 with 10 seconds to play, then Durand Scott commits a ridiculously stupid foul on a desperation 3 with 0.5 seconds left. Olivier Hanlan bails them out by missing the 3rd of 3 (big short-arm). But still, huge mistake on the Canes's part.

[DBFAN]

1-13

That is State over the last 20 yrs following a win over Duke or UNC

[OldSchool]

Just getting ready for next year when they have those big rivalry games with Nebraska and Iowa.

And the game was officiated like a Big Ten game. The players should have dressed accordingly with rugby shirts.

[CDu]

1-13

That is State over the last 20 yrs following a win over Duke or UNC

Some things never change...

The impressive part about that is how rarely State has beaten Duke or UNC in the last 20 years.

[CDu]

Maryland will make teams play ugly and on any given night can win. Tonight is a perfect example.

Make no mistake, this had very little to do with Maryland and everything to do with State. Someone posted in another thread that State is now 1-13 in the last 20 years following a win over Duke or UNC. They just don't come to play after a big, emotional win against the local schools.

Maryland was AWFUL in this game. They just benefited from State sleepwalking through the first 30+ minutes to dig a deficit. Scott Wood shot 3-11 from 3pt range, including at least 4 wide open looks. If he hits even one of those wide open misses (he didn't miss against us), State wins. And that's in spite of playing really poorly all game.

[DBFAN]

Some things never change...

The impressive part about that is how rarely State has beaten Duke or UNC in the last 20 years.

I know what is that 1outta every 5 meetings between the 3 they win, something like that

[CDu]

I know what is that 1outta every 5 meetings between the 3 they win, something like that

It might be even worse than that. They've played at least 70 games against UNC and Duke in that span. It might be over 80 (if you count ACC tourney games). So it might be one out of every 6.

[dukelifer]

Make no mistake, this had very little to do with Maryland and everything to do with State. Someone posted in another thread that State is now 1-13 in the last 20 years following a win over Duke or UNC. They just don't come to play after a big, emotional win against the local schools.

Maryland was AWFUL in this game. They just benefited from State sleepwalking through the first 30+ minutes to dig a deficit. Scott Wood shot 3-11 from 3pt range, including at least 4 wide open looks. If he hits even one of those wide open misses (he didn't miss against us), State wins. And that's in spite of playing really poorly all game.

Yes I realize that but it shows that you cannot take any team for granted. Also teams sometimes play to the level of their competition. I have seen enough ACC play to know that road games are never easy for lots of reasons.

[sporthenry]

When was Duke not in control of its destiny? Also, the league champion will be determined in Greensboro, so it's not like it matters.

Well I know we have discussed this in the past but it would be silly to just dismiss the regular season champion. That would cheapen the regular season to what, a partial round robin for seeding for a tournament that last 3 days? So 3 months of basketball ends with 3 days? But I digress, either way, winning the ACC regular season title will be important for their resume. Last year, 3 of the 4 #1 seeds didn't win their conference tourney and those 3 teams won their conference. The 4th (MSU) won their conference tourney and thus got the nod over OSU but I don't see anyone from the ACC going for a #1 seed so they can withhold a loss in the ACCT if they take care of business now.

I was wrong about controlling their own destiny since they could have tied them but from an outright perspective.

[CDu]

Yes I realize that but it shows that you cannot take any team for granted. Also teams sometimes play to the level of their competition. I have seen enough ACC play to know that road games are never easy for lots of reasons.

Oh sure. Any game can be lost. It seemed like you were suggesting this as evidence that Maryland would be competitive. They'll only be competitive if you don't show up (like State did tonight) or if you aren't very good (like almost everyone else in the conference).

If we take the game seriously, we should win by double-digits against them. They are quite bad.

[CDu]

When was Duke not in control of its destiny? Also, the league champion will be determined in Greensboro, so it's not like it matters.

I wouldn't utter those words around Coach K if I were you. We still hang banners for regular season championships, and you can bet your tush that it matters to Coach K.

[cptnflash]

Some things never change...

The impressive part about that is how rarely State has beaten Duke or UNC in the last 20 years.

If State has really beaten UNC or Duke 14 times in the past 20 years, that's actually pretty impressive, especially since they don't play both teams twice each season. I don't imagine there are many (or any) teams with more wins against those two programs in the past two decades.

[Kimist]

In what has to be one of the ugliest games ever played in ACC history, NC State goes down to defeat.

The Terrapin fans were so elated they stormed the court.

k

[CDu]

If State has really beaten UNC or Duke 14 times in the past 20 years, that's actually pretty impressive, especially since they don't play both teams twice each season. I don't imagine there are many (or any) teams with more wins against those two programs in the past two decades.

They play UNC twice every year, and have played us twice numerous times. And that includes ACC tourney games as well. I'd venture to say they've played 75+ (possibly above 80) games against Duke and UNC over the last 20 years. They've played Duke and UNC 44 times since the 2001-2002 season.

Of course, in checking back through those seasons, the 1-13 stat doesn't appear to hold up. They beat UNC right after beating Duke in 2003, and followed a win over UNC with a win over Temple in 2002. And of course they beat us in the ACC tourney in 2007, following that with wins over UVa and Va Tech.

Maybe it's limited to ACC regular season games? That might still hold. But even then, we're talking about probably 70 games (they play UNC twice a year, and often play us twice as well) in which they won only 14. That's not that impressive when you consider how that Duke and UNC have had some down years over the past 20 years.

[CDu]

In what has to be one of the ugliest games ever played in ACC history, NC State goes down to defeat.

The Terrapin fans were so elated they stormed the court.

k

On the heels of a similarly-ugly 54-47 loss to Miami.

[roywhite]

If State has really beaten UNC or Duke 14 times in the past 20 years, that's actually pretty impressive, especially since they don't play both teams twice each season. I don't imagine there are many (or any) teams with more wins against those two programs in the past two decades.

Checking info on season results over the 20 years previous to this season, I come up with Duke having a 36-7 record for NC State, or 36-8 if you count the recent game. Don't know what the record is head-to-head between the Pack and Heels, maybe something similar?

So I guess you could say that they occasionally beat one of the best teams in college basketball over the years, but in the context of being rivals and close neighbors, I'd say...No, that's not impressive. Certainly not satisfactory for Wolfpack fans who want to be on an equal footing with the local powers.

[OldPhiKap]

Also, the league champion will be determined in Greensboro, so it's not like it matters.

I have always agreed with this. However, I noticed in out last home game that the video board across from the benches (the one visible to television that scrolls though our accomplishments) listed "19 regular season championships" (or whatever the number is) along with our other gaudy numbers. So the SID must count it now.

[Kimist]

My NCSU vs UMd thread was moved here.

Thought it might have had some special relevance as Devils were just defeated last weekend by NCSU (now ranked #14) in Raleigh. :confused:

Merely curious..............thought I might have been doing something useful for the DBR readers..........

k

[Newton_14]

My NCSU vs UMd thread was moved here.

Thought it might have had some special relevance as Devils were just defeated last weekend by NCSU (now ranked #14) in Raleigh. :confused:

Merely curious..............thought I might have been doing something useful for the DBR readers..........

k

Sorry, I moved it because the game was being discussed in this thread for much of the entire game, and counting your new thread, we actually had 4 different threads where the State/Maryland game was being discussed. It was even in the Ryan Kelly Vigil thread. Was just trying to consolidate, since it was all the same topic.

Had you started your thread at the beginning of the game and folks would have used it to discuss the game, I would have let it stand on it's own. I did leave a redirect so that folks would know where to find the discussion. Hope that makes sense.

[CDu]

I have always agreed with this. However, I noticed in out last home game that the video board across from the benches (the one visible to television that scrolls though our accomplishments) listed "19 regular season championships" (or whatever the number is) along with our other gaudy numbers. So the SID must count it now.

Of course they count it. We hang banners for regular season titles. I don't know where anyone got the idea that regular championships don't matter.

The regular season champion isn't recognized by the ACC as the conference champion. But the winner gets to hang a banner, and it is definitely one of our goals every year. The regular season title matters to Coach K, and if you don't think so then you haven't been paying attention.

[OldPhiKap]

Of course they count it. We hang banners for regular season titles. I don't know where anyone got the idea that regular championships don't matter.

The regular season champion isn't recognized by the ACC as the conference champion. But the winner gets to hang a banner, and it is definitely one of our goals every year. The regular season title matters to Coach K, and if you don't think so then you haven't been paying attention.

We are not in disagreement. I am focusing on the bold part, you are focusing on the other part. Both are correct.

[wtm001]

Even though Lorenzo Brown played a good game, he let the crowd get under his skin. Can't wait til we play them in Cameron :cool:

[roywhite]

We are not in disagreement. I am focusing on the bold part, you are focusing on the other part. Both are correct.

Who better to weigh in on this than Al Featherston and a column that appeared on DBR on Jan. 4, 2007.

Featherston On Duke & The Start Of The ACC Season!
(http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=21532)


That set off a 30-year battle between coaches who wanted to honor the
regular season winner and the reality of a league that had decided to only
recognize the tournament winner. The coaches scored a minor victory in 1990,
when they got the league to officially recognize the “regular season
champion”.




The ACC actually gave Clemson a small trophy for its 1990 “regular season
championship”. That’s the only time — no regular season champ since has
gotten any hardware. More importantly, the league acknowledged the existence
of the regular season champion, although the same meeting made it clear that
the tournament champion would remain “The” ACC champion.....

As an interesting aside, the league authorized schools to hang banners for
their regular season championships – provided they were designated as
“regular season championships.” It’s not clear whether that means it’s okay
to hang a huge banner proclaiming “ACC champions” with a small tag
underneath explaining “regular season” or “tournament” as if the two were
equal. That’s the way North Carolina had been doing it for years (even
before regular season banners were authorized by the conference office), but
since Duke has recently copied the Tar Heel practice, it’s probably better
to let that question slide.

[FerryFor50]

Even though Lorenzo Brown played a good game, he let the crowd get under his skin. Can't wait til we play them in Cameron :cool:

Do you think Cameron can even start to match the classlessness of college park?

[CDu]

Do you think Cameron can even start to match the classlessness of college park?

Yeah, I have no doubt that what the Maryland fans were saying would make the Crazies blush. I doubt Brown gets nearly as hostile in Cameron.

[cptnflash]

They play UNC twice every year, and have played us twice numerous times. And that includes ACC tourney games as well. I'd venture to say they've played 75+ (possibly above 80) games against Duke and UNC over the last 20 years. They've played Duke and UNC 44 times since the 2001-2002 season.

Of course, in checking back through those seasons, the 1-13 stat doesn't appear to hold up. They beat UNC right after beating Duke in 2003, and followed a win over UNC with a win over Temple in 2002. And of course they beat us in the ACC tourney in 2007, following that with wins over UVa and Va Tech.

Maybe it's limited to ACC regular season games? That might still hold. But even then, we're talking about probably 70 games (they play UNC twice a year, and often play us twice as well) in which they won only 14. That's not that impressive when you consider how that Duke and UNC have had some down years over the past 20 years.

I checked the data, courtesy of http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/north-carolina-state/ which is a truly awesome web site. It looks like they were referring to regular season games only, because in the past 20 years (including this season), NC State is 14-57 combined against Duke and UNC. That's 71 games total, or more than 3 per season, which is somewhat more than I thought. 14 out of 71 is only a 19.7% winning percentage, which represents average performance relative to Duke's overall winning percentage during that period (80.9%), and underperformance relative to UNC's overall winning percentage (74.3%).

So I was wrong - State's 14 wins regular season wins against Duke and UNC over the past two decades are not impressive, given the number of opportunities they have had against both teams. But they haven't dramatically underperformed the rest of college basketball teams either. In a nutshell, Duke and UNC have been very hard to beat over the past 20 years, and NC State has had the misfortunate of playing both teams frequently during that period.

[Olympic Fan]

Okay, I went to the book to look at it and here's what I've got, starting in the 1992-93 season (20 seasons ago).

State is 6-29 in the regular season against Duke. Of their six regular season wins, four were followed by losses (the date is the date of State's win vs. Duke):
Jan. 23, 1995 -- L to Louisville
Feb. 20, 1995 -- W vs. Wake
Jan. 22, 2003 -- W vs. UNC
Feb. 18, 2004 -- L to Clemson
Jan. 20, 2010 -- L to Maryland
Jan. 12, 2013 -- L to Maryland

State has a 2-8 record against Duke in ACC Tournament play in that span. But both tourney wins were followed with wins:
1997 -- aftr beating Duke in the quarterfinals, State beat Maryland in the semis (before losing to UNC in the finals)
2007 -- after beaing Duke in the first round, State beat Virginia in the quarterfinals; beat Va Tech in the semifinals (before losing to UNC inm the finals)

Over that span, State is 8-32 against UNC in the regular season. Seven of those eight wins were followed by a loss:
Jan. 4, 1995 -- L to Virginia
Feb. 3, 1996 -- L to Virginia
Feb. 21, 1998 -- L to Clemson
Jan. 23, 2002 -- W vs. Temple
Feb. 24, 2002 -- L to Wake
Jan. 26, 2003 -- L to Maryland
Feb. 25, 2003 -- L to Maryland
Feb. 3, 2007 -- L to Georgia Tech

NC State is 0-4 against UNC in the ACC Tournament of the last 20 years.

That means that State is 8-37 vs. Duke and 8-36 vs. UNC in the last 20 years. You could say that State is now 3-11 over the last 20 years after beating Duke or UNC IN THE REGULAR SEASON. But that improves to 5-11 if you include ACC Tournament games.

It will be interesting to see if the trend continues ... assuming they get another Duke-UNC win any time soon (I think they SHOULD beat UNC in Raleigh ... that one is followed by a trip to Virginia, where State hasn't won since 2005).

[ChillinDuke]

One thing that struck me as I read the ESPN article on the Maryland-NC State game this morning. Check out Gottfried's comments:

"I thought our defense and our effort was phenomenal and our fight to get back in the game a couple of times was unbelievable," Gottfried said. "We started the game off 10 down, we were down nine or 10 in the second half and fought right back and put ourselves in a position to win."

I bolded two words from his short quote that I found interesting. Coach K never uses words like this, often shying away from even calling a team or a player "great". An interesting contrast. Not to mention, I find it hard to believe that anything NC State did in this game was either phenomenal or unbelievable given accounts of the game being ugly and, of course, the fact that they lost.

Not trying to blow this out of proportion. Just interesting.

- Chillin

[CDu]

One thing that struck me as I read the ESPN article on the Maryland-NC State game this morning. Check out Gottfried's comments:

"I thought our defense and our effort was phenomenal and our fight to get back in the game a couple of times was unbelievable," Gottfried said. "We started the game off 10 down, we were down nine or 10 in the second half and fought right back and put ourselves in a position to win."

I bolded two words from his short quote that I found interesting. Coach K never uses words like this, often shying away from even calling a team or a player "great". An interesting contrast. Not to mention, I find it hard to believe that anything NC State did in this game was either phenomenal or unbelievable given accounts of the game being ugly and, of course, the fact that they lost.

Not trying to blow this out of proportion. Just interesting.

- Chillin

Yeah, that sounds like Gottfried trying to put a positive spin on what was an awful basketball game. State didn't do anything well in that game. Maryland missed probably 8-10 easy layups/dunks. Some of those missed dunks/layups resulted in transition buckets for State (who didn't do anything in the half court and couldn't hit many of their several open 3s). Had Maryland converted on even half of those missed gimmes, the game would have been a laugher in favor of Maryland.

State played an atrocious game on both ends of the floor. Very little of that can, in my opinion, be attributed to anything Maryland did. Instead, it just didn't appear that the State players were ready to play. They were fortunate that Maryland was so inept offensively, which allowed State to stay within striking distance. For Gottfried to suggest anything from that game was a positive for State (aside from Lorenzo Brown being pretty good at times) is just putting lipstick on a pig.