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Lord Ash
01-12-2013, 05:09 PM
He really does... he throws things up and darnitall, they often go in! Love his hands, his feel around the hoop, and his insane arm length... the sort of player we sometimes see play against Duke who I often wish we had. That, plus his attitude... wonderful. SO glad Amile is one of us!

DukeGirl4ever
01-12-2013, 05:28 PM
I would have to agree with that Lord Ash. I often find myself thinking he has magnets in his hands because the ball seems to find him in difficult situations, tough rebounds, and key defensive stops.

I look forward to seeing more of him. I really like his game. It's different look with his length, and he's "slithery" around the hoop. He seems to know how to maneuver his body to get to the rim. I think he was a BIG get for Duke. Glad to have him on board.

RoyalBlue08
01-12-2013, 05:30 PM
I couldn't agree more. He has so many of the intangibles that are tough to teach and his deficiencies seem to be in areas that are very teachable. I think he is going to be a star before his Duke career is over.

delfrio
01-12-2013, 05:34 PM
Totally agree, he seems to have a strong nose for the ball and a strong drive to go get it. He's one of my favorite players on the team. The only thing I've noticed is that he has had the ball ripped away from him on multiple occasions, which will certainly be fixed by more time in the weight room this summer.

adukeforduke
01-12-2013, 05:35 PM
Amile moves like a guard but rebounds like a 7 footer due to his arm length. We missed Kelly today big time but if Amile hadn't got in foul trouble we may have managed to pull this one out. As "good" of a loss as you could have today (assuming Curry is fine long-term). If/when Kelly comes back the coaching staff has to find a way to keep getting Amile some minutes.

Native
01-12-2013, 05:50 PM
There was one instance today where one of our guards threw a football pass down the court to Amile who was well ahead of State getting back on defense. It looked like the pass was overthrown but those long arms came out, grabbed it, and converted for two. Agree completely — great feel around the hoop. Loved what I saw from him today and the loss might be a blessing in disguise if he can keep contributing like that against other teams, especially those come tourney time.

nmduke2001
01-12-2013, 05:52 PM
Amile sort of reminds me of Antawn Jamison in how he uses unconventional angles to get the ball to the rim.

billy
01-12-2013, 05:59 PM
Amile sort of reminds me of Antawn Jamison in how he uses unconventional angles to get the ball to the rim.
...as well as the speed with which he does so

nmduke2001
01-12-2013, 06:01 PM
...as well as the speed with which he does so

Exactly. I remember being really frustrated watching Jamison get up those quick shots. Hopefully, Amile frustrates Duke opponents for the next few years.

cptnflash
01-12-2013, 06:30 PM
There was one instance today where one of our guards threw a football pass down the court to Amile who was well ahead of State getting back on defense. It looked like the pass was overthrown but those long arms came out, grabbed it, and converted for two. Agree completely — great feel around the hoop. Loved what I saw from him today and the loss might be a blessing in disguise if he can keep contributing like that against other teams, especially those come tourney time.

When that pass was thrown, I thought it was way too long. I actually said "No" out loud because I thought for sure it was a turnover. Yet somehow he ran it down and converted. Amazing play.

slower
01-13-2013, 11:31 AM
Amile is just an old-school baller. Hustle, putbacks, intensity. What's not to love?? He will obviously be a (well-deserved) huge crowd favorite throughout his career.

rocketeli
01-13-2013, 11:59 AM
I love Amile. He's like an attack chihuahua under the boards-doesn't care or know about any size mismatch.

Native
01-13-2013, 12:12 PM
Amile is just an old-school baller.

Uncle Drew and Wes should be giving him the call any day now.

G man
01-13-2013, 12:13 PM
Amile did a lot of things I liked. His ability to score the ball despite his smaller girth is very impressive. He has a tremendous ability to read angles and use his soft touch. Only issue I have is that he can be bullied around the block defensively because the dude is so skinny.

rthomas
01-13-2013, 12:30 PM
Long arms? When Amile huddles up with the team after a foul, it looks like his arms go around the entire team.

elvis14
01-13-2013, 12:54 PM
I think we got a good look yesterday at what we are going to get from Amile and what we are going to get is great play. I agree with others that he has great hands and a good feel around the rim. I thought he played pretty decent defense as well. I know he fouled out but we still got a glimpse of how much he can affect shots. Wish he would have been able to play more against State, I didn't agree with at least 2 of the calls against him. Thought he was Shavlik'd.

moonpie23
01-13-2013, 01:19 PM
amile seemed to take the fans' heat just fine....i'm looking forward to the Feb game..... :cool:

adukeforduke
01-13-2013, 01:20 PM
Personally I see star potential in Amile during his Junior and Senior seasons. Unorthodox player but an effective one. The lineup of Cook, Sheed, Amile, Hood, and Jabari has the makings of an all-time great college lineup. Only weakness is the lack of a true 5, but on talent alone we can overcome it.

roywhite
01-13-2013, 01:36 PM
I think we got a good look yesterday at what we are going to get from Amile and what we are going to get is great play. I agree with others that he has great hands and a good feel around the rim. I thought he played pretty decent defense as well. I know he fouled out but we still got a glimpse of how much he can affect shots. Wish he would have been able to play more against State, I didn't agree with at least 2 of the calls against him. Thought he was Shavlik'd.

Take a look at the calls.

Amile Jefferson's five fouls against N.C. State
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iS17nO1Dk)

Just my opinion, but I don't think an NC State player would have had such calls go against him yesterday, or for that matter an upper classman from Duke.

Newton_14
01-13-2013, 02:05 PM
amile seemed to take the fans' heat just fine....i'm looking forward to the Feb game..... :cool:

Yep. As I shared with NewClassPack before the game, I just did not see any chance the hate speech from the State students would negatively impact Amile's play, and it didn't. If anything it fueled him to play better.

I was super stoked to see him play as well as he did yesterday. I thought he got hosed (or Shav'd) as Elvis14 opined earlier, on 2 or 3 of the foul calls. His 4th was the most egregious to me.

His confidence has to skyrocket off that performance, and it should give K confidence to play him more often.

mr. synellinden
01-13-2013, 02:16 PM
I posted this in this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?30156-Amile-Jefferson)

I had intended to start this thread before the Kelly injury - so up front I'll say this is not in reaction to that.

I'll also say that never before in my almost 30 years as a Duke basketball fan has there been a bigger disconnect between what I see on the floor from a player and how much playing time that player receives. From the very first exhibition game, every time he's been on the floor, I've been extremely impressed with something specific he's done and his overall game. He hustles - he defends and understands defensive positioning - he finishes well, and apparently can use both hands - he can put the ball on the floor and absorb contact - he is emotional - and he has the intangibles announcers and fans love to talk about in cliches: has a nose for the ball, seems to be in the right place at the right time, let's the game come to him, etc. If there is one area of weakness at this point, it is rebounding in traffic - and I think that is due not having enough strength at this point.

I realize we have an extremely talented starting five and they deserve most of the minutes, but I really think Jefferson can and will be much more important and valuable contributor as the season goes on. Obviously with Kelly out, that's more likely. But even when Kelly comes back, I expect to see much more of Jefferson as we get deeper into the ACC season and post-season.

If it were up to me, I'd have Jefferson in the starting lineup, use our full bench more - giving 5-10 minutes a game at least to Marshall, Alex, Josh and Tyler, and try to emphasize our defensive strengths a little more by employing an occasional press or trap. I'd like to see us try to convert more defense into offense and wear teams down with depth. I think our offense will be fine even without Kelly. I am more worried about the impact on defense and rebounding, and I think adding some pressing and trapping could help.

And get well soon, Ryan.

dukeofcalabash
01-13-2013, 03:22 PM
The young man did great, especially considering the lack of PT he's gotten. Another way of saying it could be construed as him not getting some experience against the lesser talented teams earlier in the year, but someone will have a lame excuse for that too. Keep it up Amile.

g-money
01-13-2013, 05:02 PM
Take a look at the calls.

Amile Jefferson's five fouls against N.C. State
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iS17nO1Dk)

Just my opinion, but I don't think an NC State player would have had such calls go against him yesterday, or for that matter an upper classman from Duke.

Yes, isn't it ironic how Hairston managed to go 25 minutes with only one foul while Jefferson picked up 5 in 12 minutes? Quite a role reversal...I'm beginning to wonder if it is an unwritten law of ACC refereeing that Duke's first big man off the bench must be saddled with cheap fouls.

Now in the refs' defense, I would say that 3 of Amile's fouls were truly deserved. The other two were phantom calls.

pokeresq
01-13-2013, 06:07 PM
One thing I noticed on his second foul was that he held the arms straight up pose far too long, he also got a warning from the ref on his third foul for his reaction. The refs do not let college players show them up, so he needs to be careful, perhaps the coaches should make him a "poor emotional reaction" tape like they did for Hurley. Amile obviously is a high motor and emotional guy who I look forward to watching play with such passion, he will just need to temper his reactions somewhat so he is able to stay on the court.

elvis14
01-13-2013, 06:19 PM
Take a look at the calls.

Amile Jefferson's five fouls against N.C. State
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iS17nO1Dk)

Just my opinion, but I don't think an NC State player would have had such calls go against him yesterday, or for that matter an upper classman from Duke.

Thanks for the link roywhite. Really shows what I was suggesting, that Amile got Shavlik'd yesterday. I actually really liked his reaction to his 3rd "foul". Loved the emotion he showed and the fact that he showed it then he controlled it. I am not blaming the loss on the refs, I just would have liked to have seen Amile get calls that were more consistant with the way the rest of the game was called.

If Kelly is out, I'd start Amile.

OldSchool
01-13-2013, 06:48 PM
Amile’s five fouls:

First foul: You are not allowed to extend your left knee like that to impede the other player. Good effort, but Amile needs to move his feet more quickly. Legit foul.

Second foul: Amile leaves his feet and makes contact with the shooter. It is hard to tell from the camera angle but it appears Amile jumps somewhat into the shooter, not purely vertically. The official has a better angle to see this than we do. Probably legit.

Third foul: Amile neither positions himself to take a charge nor does he time his jump to try to block the shot. As before, he leaves his feet and makes contact with the shooter. Again, the official has a much better angle to judge Amile’s verticality than the camera.

Fourth foul: Amile is late in moving his feet and leans way over into the opposing player with his upper body to impede the player. Legit.

Fifth foul: Amile is chasing his man Leslie in traffic around a pick by Warren. Amile had his left arm extended across the chest of Leslie and then over his shoulder. Perhaps he was not impeding Leslie with the arm, but one can see why it looked like a hold to the official.

Amile is going to be a good one, but he is still improving on his fundamentals. He’s going to learn that jumping into the air together with the shooter and making contact with the body is not going to work at this level. He can argue verticality all he wants. To avoid getting foul calls, he can either maintain a legal guarding position and take a charge if the opponent crashes into him or he can time his jump to go for the block. He should watch Ryan for good form.

Saratoga2
01-13-2013, 08:27 PM
I posted this in this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?30156-Amile-Jefferson)

I had intended to start this thread before the Kelly injury - so up front I'll say this is not in reaction to that.

I'll also say that never before in my almost 30 years as a Duke basketball fan has there been a bigger disconnect between what I see on the floor from a player and how much playing time that player receives. From the very first exhibition game, every time he's been on the floor, I've been extremely impressed with something specific he's done and his overall game. He hustles - he defends and understands defensive positioning - he finishes well, and apparently can use both hands - he can put the ball on the floor and absorb contact - he is emotional - and he has the intangibles announcers and fans love to talk about in cliches: has a nose for the ball, seems to be in the right place at the right time, let's the game come to him, etc. If there is one area of weakness at this point, it is rebounding in traffic - and I think that is due not having enough strength at this point.

I realize we have an extremely talented starting five and they deserve most of the minutes, but I really think Jefferson can and will be much more important and valuable contributor as the season goes on. Obviously with Kelly out, that's more likely. But even when Kelly comes back, I expect to see much more of Jefferson as we get deeper into the ACC season and post-season.

If it were up to me, I'd have Jefferson in the starting lineup, use our full bench more - giving 5-10 minutes a game at least to Marshall, Alex, Josh and Tyler, and try to emphasize our defensive strengths a little more by employing an occasional press or trap. I'd like to see us try to convert more defense into offense and wear teams down with depth. I think our offense will be fine even without Kelly. I am more worried about the impact on defense and rebounding, and I think adding some pressing and trapping could help.

And get well soon, Ryan.

Coach K indicated he wants to develop his starters and the team chemistry for them first. That is a good thing to do and coach K has had tremendous success with this approaach. For the fan though, it is reasonable to ask the question "with such a good player as Amile, why hasn't he seen more PT"? With Ryan out, he will going forward, but perhaps he could have gotten more time on a per game basis. The same question can be asked about Alex, who saw very little time against NC State. Then there was Marshall.

In the NC State game, our guards were no match for Leslie or Howell. They actually has their hands full with the NCS guards. In truth, we really didn't match up well against Leslie and Howell with any of our players. Josh has the physical bulk but not the height or mobility. He did a good job although he wasn't a great matchup. Amile was good but fouled too often. Alex must be looked at as a defensive liability, as he appeared to be a reasonable matchup, but didn't get the PT. Marshall also got almost no PT.

Will guarding quality 4's and 5's be our Achille's heel going forward? We saw a good offensive effort, so defense, on quality bigs is where we need some improvement. Maybe we can try different combinations of our big players to see if we can find the most effective approach.

jipops
01-13-2013, 08:53 PM
I like the sentiment of the title of this thread but I don't agree with the literal context. I think it should read more like "Amile has good hands/decent feel around the basket". I wouldn't go so far as to anoint him the next Antawn Jamison. That being said, I really wasn't surprised yet very encouraged by his output yesterday. I said in one of the Kelly threads before the game that he should probably be starting right now. Though inexperienced he brings more of a skill set to the floor than Hairston and has that terrific wingspan (Bilas is probably going nuts over it). The confidence he is building right now could be a huge bonus for us when Kelly comes back (unless the refs continue to give him the Shav). Strength is his biggest issue right now, both upper and lower body.

This kid will be leaned on a lot next year.

Kedsy
01-13-2013, 09:31 PM
Strength is his biggest issue right now, both upper and lower body.

Well, strength and defensive positioning. I don't see much hope of him improving the former until the off-season, but it's possible the latter might click at any time. Hopefully sooner, rather than later, and then Amile should continue to contribute.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-13-2013, 09:41 PM
Amile reminds me sooooo much of Lance Thomas, but with more feel of how/ability to score.

Kedsy
01-13-2013, 09:43 PM
Amile reminds me sooooo much of Lance Thomas, but with more feel of how/ability to score.

In what way? Body type? Enthusiasm? Just curious, because he doesn't really remind me of Lance in any meaningful way.

Newton_14
01-13-2013, 09:51 PM
I like the sentiment of the title of this thread but I don't agree with the literal context. I think it should read more like "Amile has good hands/decent feel around the basket". I wouldn't go so far as to anoint him the next Antawn Jamison. That being said, I really wasn't surprised yet very encouraged by his output yesterday. I said in one of the Kelly threads before the game that he should probably be starting right now. Though inexperienced he brings more of a skill set to the floor than Hairston and has that terrific wingspan (Bilas is probably going nuts over it). The confidence he is building right now could be a huge bonus for us when Kelly comes back (unless the refs continue to give him the Shav). Strength is his biggest issue right now, both upper and lower body.

This kid will be leaned on a lot next year.


He is not ready to start and play starters minutes. Defense is still the most important thing, and our defense is what suffered the most Saturday. I have said many times that I love Amile and what he brings. I wish I could put 25 more pounds of bulk and strength on him right now along with a year or two of experience in the Duke system. He is going to be a stud.

He played great on offense Saturday, but also fouled out in 12 minutes. Josh played 25 minutes and had 1 foul. Despite the talent disparity, Josh is still our best available defensive big after Mason, which gives him the advantage over Amile right now. Josh does a lot of little things on defense that go unnoticed that Amile is not ready to do yet. One example of that is during the first half run by Duke, Josh caused a turnover by taking a half step away from his man to flash at a cutter coming off a screen. It led to a steal by I believe Rasheed (not sure), and a Duke fast break score. That was 100% about positioning and knowing the defensive assignment. Most people would credit Rasheed for making a steal but it was Josh that disrupted the play.

The flip side of course is plays like the hit ahead pass from Cook to Amile for the layup. That's a play Josh can't make but Amile can. Right now though, the pendulum still swings to Josh when all things are considered.

Like I said earlier though, this game can be a shot in the arm to Amile's confidence and possibly jumpstart his game to the point where he starts picking up on the nuances of the defense, and makes plays that Josh is making and earns more minutes. He can certainly learn from Saturday and reduce the fouls. His size and strength will be a hindrance all season, but he still has a tremendous potential for further growth this season, which is great.

Depending on how long Ryan is out, we may see a progression where Josh and Amile's minutes per game draw closer. Saturday was Josh-25, and Amile-12. I could see that progress to Josh 20 and Amile 16/17 over time. That would be good because we would have Amile's offensive potential for more minutes, and Josh could play more aggressive on defense and not have to manage his fouls as much as he has to right now.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-13-2013, 09:53 PM
In what way? Body type? Enthusiasm? Just curious, because he doesn't really remind me of Lance in any meaningful way.

Yes and yes. Both things you mentioned....An energy guy who plays his butt off, but Amile has more of an ability to score the ball.

-jk
01-13-2013, 10:14 PM
Regardless of minutes played, I suspect we'll see Josh continue to start to keep some mental pressure off the freshmen.

-jk

jipops
01-13-2013, 10:32 PM
He is not ready to start and play starters minutes. Defense is still the most important thing, and our defense is what suffered the most Saturday. I have said many times that I love Amile and what he brings. I wish I could put 25 more pounds of bulk and strength on him right now along with a year or two of experience in the Duke system. He is going to be a stud.

He played great on offense Saturday, but also fouled out in 12 minutes. Josh played 25 minutes and had 1 foul. Despite the talent disparity, Josh is still our best available defensive big after Mason, which gives him the advantage over Amile right now. Josh does a lot of little things on defense that go unnoticed that Amile is not ready to do yet. One example of that is during the first half run by Duke, Josh caused a turnover by taking a half step away from his man to flash at a cutter coming off a screen. It led to a steal by I believe Rasheed (not sure), and a Duke fast break score. That was 100% about positioning and knowing the defensive assignment. Most people would credit Rasheed for making a steal but it was Josh that disrupted the play.

The flip side of course is plays like the hit ahead pass from Cook to Amile for the layup. That's a play Josh can't make but Amile can. Right now though, the pendulum still swings to Josh when all things are considered.

Like I said earlier though, this game can be a shot in the arm to Amile's confidence and possibly jumpstart his game to the point where he starts picking up on the nuances of the defense, and makes plays that Josh is making and earns more minutes. He can certainly learn from Saturday and reduce the fouls. His size and strength will be a hindrance all season, but he still has a tremendous potential for further growth this season, which is great.

Depending on how long Ryan is out, we may see a progression where Josh and Amile's minutes per game draw closer. Saturday was Josh-25, and Amile-12. I could see that progress to Josh 20 and Amile 16/17 over time. That would be good because we would have Amile's offensive potential for more minutes, and Josh could play more aggressive on defense and not have to manage his fouls as much as he has to right now.

I'm not actually convinced that Hairston is at all a significantly better defensive option than Amile. Yes his foul rate was crazy high but atleast a couple of those were head scratchers. I'd be interested to see what the foul rate is next time out. Josh had no foul issues because he basically didn't guard anyone. i think this was one reason K went with Marshall very late. Josh's main advantage is that he is experienced enough to put himself in position for a board. But even then he has a tendency to end up on the floor or bobble it out of bounds. Plus, Amile did have 2 blocks to Josh's 0.

Yes did flash off the cutter to intercept that pass but it was also a horrible pass, too low. Credit to Josh though for rotating. A few plays before that State ran the same play where Josh was beat on the cut. I still like Amile better for defending that because of his length.

Start Josh, fine. I'd rather see Amile finishing.

G man
01-13-2013, 10:46 PM
Thanks for the link roywhite. Really shows what I was suggesting, that Amile got Shavlik'd yesterday. I actually really liked his reaction to his 3rd "foul". Loved the emotion he showed and the fact that he showed it then he controlled it. I am not blaming the loss on the refs, I just would have liked to have seen Amile get calls that were more consistant with the way the rest of the game was called.

If Kelly is out, I'd start Amile.

I thought Josh played great, but he just does not bring the same firepower that Amile does.

Newton_14
01-13-2013, 11:15 PM
I'm not actually convinced that Hairston is at all a significantly better defensive option than Amile. Yes his foul rate was crazy high but atleast a couple of those were head scratchers. I'd be interested to see what the foul rate is next time out. Josh had no foul issues because he basically didn't guard anyone. i think this was one reason K went with Marshall very late. Josh's main advantage is that he is experienced enough to put himself in position for a board. But even then he has a tendency to end up on the floor or bobble it out of bounds. Plus, Amile did have 2 blocks to Josh's 0.

Yes did flash off the cutter to intercept that pass but it was also a horrible pass, too low. Credit to Josh though for rotating. A few plays before that State ran the same play where Josh was beat on the cut. I still like Amile better for defending that because of his length.

Start Josh, fine. I'd rather see Amile finishing.


Two questions.
Have you seen any games in person this season?
If Amile has been better than Josh all season, then why does K play Josh so much?

I am pretty sure K wants to win every game, plays the guys he thinks gives him the best chance to do that, and has no hidden agenda that would lead him to play a guy he thinks is not his best option over a guy he thinks is actually the better option.

To make the statement that "Josh did not guard anyone" after watching the game Saturday tells me that you are biased against Josh, and simply want someone else other than Josh to play no matter what. Leslie scored on every single defender we put on him. But let's assign all the blame to Josh because he is the favorite whipping boy. (Although it is a close race with Tyler in that dept)

So bash away I guess...cause unless Josh scores more points and looks pretty doing it, you and others around here will never give him any credit anyway. Much like Lance and Zoubs were viewed prior to the 2nd half of their Senior years.

Maybe Josh and Tyler's parents are paying K to the play their sons more minutes or something. Surely there is some type of conspiracy behind K's actions with the lineups..

But alas I am raising the white flag of surrender on the topic... K is going senile in his old age and there is just no point in continuing to defend him on this one...

miramar
01-13-2013, 11:47 PM
I'm sure the State game was a tremendous learning experience, but Amile had an unusual stat line: 12 min, 10 pts, 5 fouls, 4 Rebs and 2 blocks.

Since Rebounding seems to be this team's Achilles heel, Amile could provide some help against bigger teams at the #3, especially while Rasheed works through his slump. State only had a two rebound advantage for the game, but Duke was +8 at one point IIRC, and after that Howell owned the boards.

mr. synellinden
01-14-2013, 12:22 AM
I would be very interested to see Jefferson's +\- numbers for the game. It SEEMED to me that we did very well with him in the game.

I thought Josh played great, and I have no problem with him starting, but I would love to see Jefferson get 20 minutes a game.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the next starting lineup could be Mason, Josh, Amile, Seth and Quinn? With Rasheed coming off the bench?

Kedsy
01-14-2013, 12:31 AM
Has anyone considered the possibility that the next starting lineup could be Mason, Josh, Amile, Seth and Quinn? With Rasheed coming off the bench?

I would say that's a long shot. Like outside the galaxy long shot.

Kedsy
01-14-2013, 12:40 AM
I would be very interested to see Jefferson's +\- numbers for the game. It SEEMED to me that we did very well with him in the game.

Amile was in the game for a four minute 15-5 Duke run during the first half, so he was +10 in those four minutes. He was +1 during his other 8 minutes, giving him +11 for the game. However, I don't think plus/minus figures in a one-game, 12 minute sample can be said to have any real meaning.

JNort
01-14-2013, 08:24 AM
I would be very interested to see Jefferson's +\- numbers for the game. It SEEMED to me that we did very well with him in the game.

I thought Josh played great, and I have no problem with him starting, but I would love to see Jefferson get 20 minutes a game.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the next starting lineup could be Mason, Josh, Amile, Seth and Quinn? With Rasheed coming off the bench?

Agree with Kedsey. If you wanna talk lineup mix ups then I would have said : Mason, Amile, Alex, Seth, Quinn with Sheed off the bench. Crazy yes but more likely than the one you stated imo

JNort
01-14-2013, 08:34 AM
Two questions.
Have you seen any games in person this season?
If Amile has been better than Josh all season, then why does K play Josh so much?

I am pretty sure K wants to win every game, plays the guys he thinks gives him the best chance to do that, and has no hidden agenda that would lead him to play a guy he thinks is not his best option over a guy he thinks is actually the better option.

To make the statement that "Josh did not guard anyone" after watching the game Saturday tells me that you are biased against Josh, and simply want someone else other than Josh to play no matter what. Leslie scored on every single defender we put on him. But let's assign all the blame to Josh because he is the favorite whipping boy. (Although it is a close race with Tyler in that dept)

So bash away I guess...cause unless Josh scores more points and looks pretty doing it, you and others around here will never give him any credit anyway. Much like Lance and Zoubs were viewed prior to the 2nd half of their Senior years.

Maybe Josh and Tyler's parents are paying K to the play their sons more minutes or something. Surely there is some type of conspiracy behind K's actions with the lineups..

But alas I am raising the white flag of surrender on the topic... K is going senile in his old age and there is just no point in continuing to defend him on this one...

I like you Newt and generally enjoy your posts but this is just an annoying one imo. You should never use the argument "Then why does K do such and such" just because he chooses to start or play one guy over another does not mean he is making the right choice or even the best one.


Well there is a reason they generally get hacked on. They are the least talented guys on our team of the recruited players. That's not to say the are lacking talent at all just that the others on the team are more talented. However they may not be better where K wants which is why Tyler and Josh get the minutes. I was at the game and actually sitting in the student section (family members go there and gave me their tickets) and I can assure you 100% the State fans nearby cheered when Josh would come in and they have only probably seen him sparingly and they can tell he is more over-matched than the rest of the guys.

jipops
01-14-2013, 09:40 AM
Two questions.
Have you seen any games in person this season?
If Amile has been better than Josh all season, then why does K play Josh so much?

I am pretty sure K wants to win every game, plays the guys he thinks gives him the best chance to do that, and has no hidden agenda that would lead him to play a guy he thinks is not his best option over a guy he thinks is actually the better option.

To make the statement that "Josh did not guard anyone" after watching the game Saturday tells me that you are biased against Josh, and simply want someone else other than Josh to play no matter what. Leslie scored on every single defender we put on him. But let's assign all the blame to Josh because he is the favorite whipping boy. (Although it is a close race with Tyler in that dept)

So bash away I guess...cause unless Josh scores more points and looks pretty doing it, you and others around here will never give him any credit anyway. Much like Lance and Zoubs were viewed prior to the 2nd half of their Senior years.

Maybe Josh and Tyler's parents are paying K to the play their sons more minutes or something. Surely there is some type of conspiracy behind K's actions with the lineups..

But alas I am raising the white flag of surrender on the topic... K is going senile in his old age and there is just no point in continuing to defend him on this one...

1. Yes, several. And I always feel fortunate to have done so.
2. Because K wants to go with experience. Can't disagree with him there.

I just really didn't think Josh played good defense at all Saturday. Amile's wasn't very good either for that matter considering the foul issues. Josh is a hustle guy, I think he does very well to get in position to rebound and he is effective if he gets it up quick. Many times this season he has used his added bulk well on defense, many times he hasn't. Saturday he didn't. I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions given my stated opinions. I'm not out here to bash Josh. I simply believe Amile may be the better option, if not now then very soon. At no point have I assigned blame for Saturday. Tyler and Rasheed both missed some defensive assignments the other day as well. Not sure where "hidden agenda" and "senile" are coming from. I'm 100% confident K will handle this personnel as well as anyone possibly can and things will work out fine.

Newton_14
01-14-2013, 12:06 PM
1. Yes, several. And I always feel fortunate to have done so.
2. Because K wants to go with experience. Can't disagree with him there.

I just really didn't think Josh played good defense at all Saturday. Amile's wasn't very good either for that matter considering the foul issues. Josh is a hustle guy, I think he does very well to get in position to rebound and he is effective if he gets it up quick. Many times this season he has used his added bulk well on defense, many times he hasn't. Saturday he didn't. I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions given my stated opinions. I'm not out here to bash Josh. I simply believe Amile may be the better option, if not now then very soon. At no point have I assigned blame for Saturday. Tyler and Rasheed both missed some defensive assignments the other day as well. Not sure where "hidden agenda" and "senile" are coming from. I'm 100% confident K will handle this personnel as well as anyone possibly can and things will work out fine.


At work so will respond to you and JNort more in depth tonight. I misunderstood your intent there and was too snarky in my response. My apologies. Our team defense was below par Saturday and can't really blame one moreson than others. But it looks like you were trying to state that anyway and I missed it.

Just mainly frustrated with Josh seemingly never being appreciated as a role player who performs his role well actually. He is not a star but he does actually help us when he is in there. More to come later...

Lennies
01-14-2013, 12:52 PM
The player that Amile reminds me of the most is Ed Pinckney (Villanova '85). I think they are very similar in body type (skinny, long arms) and they both take very unconventional looking shots.

g-money
01-14-2013, 02:28 PM
Just mainly frustrated with Josh seemingly never being appreciated as a role player who performs his role well actually. He is not a star but he does actually help us when he is in there. More to come later...

Agreed. While it's fine to extol the virtues of Amile, I think we should avoid being too critical of Josh, Tyler, or anyone else in the Duke family, as is generally observed on this board.

On a related note, IIRC, Josh and Tyler played a substantial role in helping turn the big-time recruiting spigot back on at Duke (a recollection that seems to be confirmed by this article: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=2049978290 ). It's not too much of a reach to suggest that without Josh, there would be no Amile in Duke blue either. Let's try to keep that in mind.

Newton_14
01-14-2013, 07:38 PM
I like you Newt and generally enjoy your posts but this is just an annoying one imo. You should never use the argument "Then why does K do such and such" just because he chooses to start or play one guy over another does not mean he is making the right choice or even the best one.


Well there is a reason they generally get hacked on. They are the least talented guys on our team of the recruited players. That's not to say the are lacking talent at all just that the others on the team are more talented. However they may not be better where K wants which is why Tyler and Josh get the minutes. I was at the game and actually sitting in the student section (family members go there and gave me their tickets) and I can assure you 100% the State fans nearby cheered when Josh would come in and they have only probably seen him sparingly and they can tell he is more over-matched than the rest of the guys.

Fair point, and I rarely throw the K trump card in there. K is not perfect. Best coach on the planet, but not perfect.


1. Yes, several. And I always feel fortunate to have done so.
2. Because K wants to go with experience. Can't disagree with him there.

I just really didn't think Josh played good defense at all Saturday. Amile's wasn't very good either for that matter considering the foul issues. Josh is a hustle guy, I think he does very well to get in position to rebound and he is effective if he gets it up quick. Many times this season he has used his added bulk well on defense, many times he hasn't. Saturday he didn't. I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions given my stated opinions. I'm not out here to bash Josh. I simply believe Amile may be the better option, if not now then very soon. At no point have I assigned blame for Saturday. Tyler and Rasheed both missed some defensive assignments the other day as well. Not sure where "hidden agenda" and "senile" are coming from. I'm 100% confident K will handle this personnel as well as anyone possibly can and things will work out fine.

Mea culpa and like I said, call it pent up frustration, and yours was just the post that spilled it over. Bad idea on my part to post when irritated.

Mainly just trying to get people to step back and think. More than one poster has opined that "they just don't see why K plays him". To me it is a case of (like that age old song) "Looking for love in all the wrong places". A lot of the good things Josh does will not show up in the boxscore. He plays a role. Defend, take charges, rebound, get the put back when it's available, set good screens for the wings, provide toughness and energy, and don't turn it over. He can have a really good game and end up with 4 points, 2 boards, and 2 charges. He is not Ryan, and can't bring what Ryan brings, but that's ok. He still brings value. He sat for two years due to not being able to even do those things. Now he can, even against the best. He was huge in the Kentucky game for example.

Not trying to drop the K trump card again, but do want to share a quote from today's Daily DBR with Bob Harris. Bob commented on the good play of Josh and Amile in the State game. K said something to the effect of, "yes they were both good in the stat categories" or something to that effect.

Anyway, my hope is that both Josh and Amile continue to give us good contributions while Ryan is out. We need both to play well to remain a Top 10 level team.

CDu
01-14-2013, 08:01 PM
Mainly just trying to get people to step back and think. More than one poster has opined that "they just don't see why K plays him". To me it is a case of (like that age old song) "Looking for love in all the wrong places". A lot of the good things Josh does will not show up in the boxscore. He plays a role. Defend, take charges, rebound, get the put back when it's available, set good screens for the wings, provide toughness and energy, and don't turn it over. He can have a really good game and end up with 4 points, 2 boards, and 2 charges. He is not Ryan, and can't bring what Ryan brings, but that's ok. He still brings value. He sat for two years due to not being able to even do those things. Now he can, even against the best. He was huge in the Kentucky game for example.

Not trying to drop the K trump card again, but do want to share a quote from today's Daily DBR with Bob Harris. Bob commented on the good play of Josh and Amile in the State game. K said something to the effect of, "yes they were both good in the stat categories" or something to that effect.

Anyway, my hope is that both Josh and Amile continue to give us good contributions while Ryan is out. We need both to play well to remain a Top 10 level team.

To be fair, Hairston doesn't rebound as well as Jefferson. Jefferson is averaging 2.1 rpg and 9.0 mpg. Hairston is averaging 2.3 rpg and 12.1 mpg. So in 25% fewer mpg, Jefferson is roughly matching Hairston's rebound totals (5 fewer rebounds, 59 fewer minutes). Jefferson also has more total points, blocks, and steals despite playing 59 fewer minutes.

Now, it may very well be that Hairston sets better screens and has better defensive rotations than Jefferson. Those are things that do not show up in the box score. But in terms of nearly all the things that do show up in the box score, Jefferson is superior. And in the only game that both have played significant minutes, Jefferson seemed to do a better job defending Leslie when he was in there (though he did foul out).

I'm willing to trust that Coach K sees something in Hairston that I don't, and that that is why Hairston is playing over Jefferson. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss the issue, because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

gumbomoop
01-14-2013, 08:30 PM
... because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

I assume Ryan will be out for awhile [a word, btw, that's relatively optimistic, in keeping my sunny Internet disposition] and that therefore Josh and Amile will share the 4 for, well, awhile. I'd guess that Amile would have to outperform Josh by a lot to move into the starting lineup. Josh presumably has been the better player in practice so far, and so has logged more minutes than Amile as backup to Ryan, and a few minutes to Mason. I don't discount the possibility that - despite the K-dictum that the guys determine who plays - there's a psychological plus to staying with Josh as starter.

So I expect Josh to continue to start, but not at all inconceivable that Amile might log more minutes than Josh in some upcoming game. Conceivably might even become a pattern: Josh starts at the 4, Amile relieves and plays more in some games than Josh, Amile's stats are a bit better, both guys together do a respectable job of replacing an irreplaceable multi-guy.

Newton_14
01-14-2013, 08:35 PM
To be fair, Hairston doesn't rebound as well as Jefferson. Jefferson is averaging 2.1 rpg and 9.0 mpg. Hairston is averaging 2.3 rpg and 12.1 mpg. So in 25% fewer mpg, Jefferson is roughly matching Hairston's rebound totals (5 fewer rebounds, 59 fewer minutes). Jefferson also has more total points, blocks, and steals despite playing 59 fewer minutes.

Now, it may very well be that Hairston sets better screens and has better defensive rotations than Jefferson. Those are things that do not show up in the box score. But in terms of nearly all the things that do show up in the box score, Jefferson is superior. And in the only game that both have played significant minutes, Jefferson seemed to do a better job defending Leslie when he was in there (though he did foul out).

I'm willing to trust that Coach K sees something in Hairston that I don't, and that that is why Hairston is playing over Jefferson. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss the issue, because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

Totally agree on Amile having better skills, and being better as a stat stuffer. No argument at all. That's not my point though. Like I said, it's the things that don't show up where Josh currently has the advantage, and what I am mainly defending is that Josh has played his role well in most games, and has helped the team.

And to be fair I have wanted Amile (and Alex to a lesser degree) to get more minutes at times. With Ryan out though, it is a moot point. Both Josh and Amile are going to get all the minutes they can handle for what looks like quite a long time moving forward.

timmy c
01-14-2013, 08:40 PM
To be fair, Hairston doesn't rebound as well as Jefferson. Jefferson is averaging 2.1 rpg and 9.0 mpg. Hairston is averaging 2.3 rpg and 12.1 mpg. So in 25% fewer mpg, Jefferson is roughly matching Hairston's rebound totals (5 fewer rebounds, 59 fewer minutes). Jefferson also has more total points, blocks, and steals despite playing 59 fewer minutes.

Now, it may very well be that Hairston sets better screens and has better defensive rotations than Jefferson. Those are things that do not show up in the box score. But in terms of nearly all the things that do show up in the box score, Jefferson is superior. And in the only game that both have played significant minutes, Jefferson seemed to do a better job defending Leslie when he was in there (though he did foul out).

I'm willing to trust that Coach K sees something in Hairston that I don't, and that that is why Hairston is playing over Jefferson. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss the issue, because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

Fouls can be a big deal. Teams that foul more put their opponents into the bonus quicker. It’s not an accident that NC State made 20 of 23 free throws to Duke’s 10 out of 12.

I expect Jefferson’s propensity to foul will diminish as he gets more minutes.

Duvall
01-14-2013, 09:12 PM
Fouls can be a big deal. Teams that foul more put their opponents into the bonus quicker. It’s not an accident that NC State made 20 of 23 free throws to Duke’s 10 out of 12.

I expect Jefferson’s propensity to foul will diminish as he gets more minutes.

Well, it would pretty much have to...

-jk
01-14-2013, 09:16 PM
To be fair, Hairston doesn't rebound as well as Jefferson. Jefferson is averaging 2.1 rpg and 9.0 mpg. Hairston is averaging 2.3 rpg and 12.1 mpg. So in 25% fewer mpg, Jefferson is roughly matching Hairston's rebound totals (5 fewer rebounds, 59 fewer minutes). Jefferson also has more total points, blocks, and steals despite playing 59 fewer minutes.

Now, it may very well be that Hairston sets better screens and has better defensive rotations than Jefferson. Those are things that do not show up in the box score. But in terms of nearly all the things that do show up in the box score, Jefferson is superior. And in the only game that both have played significant minutes, Jefferson seemed to do a better job defending Leslie when he was in there (though he did foul out).

I'm willing to trust that Coach K sees something in Hairston that I don't, and that that is why Hairston is playing over Jefferson. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss the issue, because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

Well, to go all reductio ad absurdum, Pistol Pete had otherworldly stats on a rather pedestrian team.

It's a team sport. K does metrics on an absurd number of things beyond the box score, and he thinks Josh is contributing to the team.

-jk

tbyers11
01-14-2013, 10:14 PM
Fouls can be a big deal. Teams that foul more put their opponents into the bonus quicker. It’s not an accident that NC State made 20 of 23 free throws to Duke’s 10 out of 12.

I expect Jefferson’s propensity to foul will diminish as he gets more minutes.

True point that fouling does put your opponent in the bonus quicker. However, that was the case for the free throw disparity in the NC State game. We only had 7 team fouls in the first half and I think the 7th foul was a shooting foul, IIRC. In the second half NC State shot 10 FTs (and hit all 10 in the last minute as we tried to get back in the game. Before we started to foul, the free throw battle was NCST 10-13 and Duke 10-12.

G man
01-14-2013, 11:26 PM
To be fair, Hairston doesn't rebound as well as Jefferson. Jefferson is averaging 2.1 rpg and 9.0 mpg. Hairston is averaging 2.3 rpg and 12.1 mpg. So in 25% fewer mpg, Jefferson is roughly matching Hairston's rebound totals (5 fewer rebounds, 59 fewer minutes). Jefferson also has more total points, blocks, and steals despite playing 59 fewer minutes.

Now, it may very well be that Hairston sets better screens and has better defensive rotations than Jefferson. Those are things that do not show up in the box score. But in terms of nearly all the things that do show up in the box score, Jefferson is superior. And in the only game that both have played significant minutes, Jefferson seemed to do a better job defending Leslie when he was in there (though he did foul out).

I'm willing to trust that Coach K sees something in Hairston that I don't, and that that is why Hairston is playing over Jefferson. But I do think it is reasonable to discuss the issue, because quite frankly everything that we can easily observe suggests Jefferson should be playing more.

It bothers me when people avoid issues for the sake of protecting all things that are duke including some of the players. That being said I also dislike people dumping on players because of a loss. That being said I completely agree with the statement above. Not only does Jefferson's stats appear better but watching them both on TV it appears Jefferson is more talented and has better production. That being said my guess why Hairston is getting more burn is that he understand the defensive rotations better. We all know that if you struggle to play D at Duke you don't play.

sagegrouse
01-15-2013, 11:32 AM
It bothers me when people avoid issues for the sake of protecting all things that are duke including some of the players. That being said I also dislike people dumping on players because of a loss. That being said I completely agree with the statement above. Not only does Jefferson's stats appear better but watching them both on TV it appears Jefferson is more talented and has better production. That being said my guess why Hairston is getting more burn is that he understand the defensive rotations better. We all know that if you struggle to play D at Duke you don't play.

Simple math, G Man: Amile had five fouls in 12 minutes. The only way Josh was NOT gonna get more playing time was to play less than 12 minutes. Your point about defense, nevertheless, is certainly valid -- that's one reason Amile got called for so many fouls.

BTW, not your post but others seem to oppose the obvious idea that Amile should be "points off the bench" and want him to start over Hairston. I sense some emnity against Josh, who is trying as hard as he can and will probably improve with more playing time.

sagegrouse

timmy c
01-15-2013, 11:49 AM
True point that fouling does put your opponent in the bonus quicker. However, that was the case for the free throw disparity in the NC State game. We only had 7 team fouls in the first half and I think the 7th foul was a shooting foul, IIRC. In the second half NC State shot 10 FTs (and hit all 10 in the last minute as we tried to get back in the game. Before we started to foul, the free throw battle was NCST 10-13 and Duke 10-12.

Agreed. I should have used a different example.