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Lord Ash
01-12-2013, 02:59 PM
Is it just me, or is Mason getting back to a few of his former habits?

He is doing a lot of dribbling when attacking the hoop, and beginning that dribble both high up and too far from the hoop.

He is fading away and making lateral moves across the court, instead of going right at the basket.

He is missing free throws.

He is hesitating to see what the D does and then trying to react, rather than getting the ball and bulling his way to a basket.

This seems like a recent development as far as this year, and a bit of a step back to bad habits. I know he is seeing doubles, but his reaction to that hasn't been ideal.

Thoughts?

davekay1971
01-12-2013, 03:04 PM
Is it just me, or is Mason getting back to a few of his former habits?

He is doing a lot of dribbling when attacking the hoop, and beginning that dribble both high up and too far from the hoop.

He is fading away and making lateral moves across the court, instead of going right at the basket.

He is missing free throws.

He is hesitating to see what the D does and then trying to react, rather than getting the ball and bulling his way to a basket.

This seems like a recent development as far as this year, and a bit of a step back to bad habits. I know he is seeing doubles, but his reaction to that hasn't been ideal.

Thoughts?

I thought he just played a great game, rebounded well, defended well, avoided foul trouble, had 4 steals...

Mason is not a concern for me...at all.

jv001
01-12-2013, 03:07 PM
I wish every Duke player had played as well and hard as Mason did today. It could be the guards are not getting him the ball in good position and he decides to take his man off the dribble. Not a very good move but maybe he's getting irritated at his guards doing so much dribbling. GoDuke!

CDu
01-12-2013, 03:08 PM
I thought he just played a great game, rebounded well, defended well, avoided foul trouble, had 4 steals...

Mason is not a concern for me...at all.

I thought he played well, too. He got outplayed by Howell, but that can happen (Howell's good). But offensively, I didn't have too many qualms with his play. Yes, he had a couple of sloppy turnovers. But the team was struggling, and he was trying to create something. He had plenty of plays where he was decisive with the ball.

The free throw struggles are, I suspect, just a reality that we'll have to deal with. He's not a good free throw shooter. He has terrible form and terrible arc. Some of those line drives went in in the first few games of the season, but he's returned to earth in the last month or so.

But I agree: I'm not too concerned about Mason. When one is complaining about a 15 point, 10 rebound, 4 steal, 2 block game (on 7-10 FG shooting), that's saying something.

Lord Ash
01-12-2013, 03:09 PM
I think I might be talking more over the last handful of games than JUST today.

CDu
01-12-2013, 03:11 PM
I think I might be talking more over the last handful of games than JUST today.

In the last few games, I agree with you. But today he played much better offensively than the past few games. Much more like what he did early in the season.

Bob Green
01-12-2013, 03:13 PM
Thoughts?

I think you picked a strange time to start a thread questioning Mason's play. A 15 points and 11 rebounds effort going 7-10 from the field is pretty darn impressive. When you add in four steals, two blocks and the fact the performance was against two quality interior players in Richard Howell and C.J. Leslie it becomes super impressive.

He was forced to do more today due to Kelly being unavailable.

davekay1971
01-12-2013, 03:17 PM
Agreed with Bob that the timing of starting this thread is a little off, but going back a few games, the biggest concern I have is Mason's free throws. Without looking at the game-by-game stats, his free throw shooting seems to have become less consistent (or, uh, more consistently like his first 3 years in college). As good as Mason is at getting to the line, the difference between 50% and 80% at the line can be 3-4 points per game, which can be critical, especially in the end-game if Mason, rather than being a nearly automatic 2 in a close game, becomes a liability because hack-a-Mase is a viable option for the opponent.

His overall offense, rebounding, and defensive play, however, remain at a very high level, and he's currently one of the best centers in the nation.

Lord Ash
01-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Maybe the timing is because I felt today he sort of did a bit of both. He had a few times when he tried to initiate the dribble from way too far, causing him to get stripped or lose the ball. But at the same time he had a few plays where he is most effective... On the run, and also way down low, almost under the basket, going up into the opponent. The instances he tried to do "too much", which is what he seems to me to have been doing in the last four or five games, he struggled. But the times he was under the basket, elevating and putting it in, he found great success.

jv001
01-12-2013, 03:24 PM
Mason will probably never be a good free throw shooter. With his form and linedrive shot, law of average will or has caught up with him. Too many balls hit the rim and come out. Only work and better form will get Mason to a 70%-80% free throw shooter. GoDuke!

Jderf
01-12-2013, 03:30 PM
Agreed with Bob that the timing of starting this thread is a little off, but going back a few games, the biggest concern I have is Mason's free throws. Without looking at the game-by-game stats, his free throw shooting seems to have become less consistent (or, uh, more consistently like his first 3 years in college). As good as Mason is at getting to the line, the difference between 50% and 80% at the line can be 3-4 points per game, which can be critical, especially in the end-game if Mason, rather than being a nearly automatic 2 in a close game, becomes a liability because hack-a-Mase is a viable option for the opponent.

His overall offense, rebounding, and defensive play, however, remain at a very high level, and he's currently one of the best centers in the nation.

While I would agree that the slight downtick in FT% is a bit disconcerting, I'm not so much worried about Mason as I am with where the rest of the team is getting him the ball. In the last few weeks, it seems to me that the team has gotten away from feeding Mason deep in the low post (7-10 feet from the hoop), where he is extremely effective at finishing. We've seen a lot of nice possessions this year where he turns to the basket for a hook shot or curls baseline to get under the rim and finishes on the reverse. That's the Mason we all want to see. But instead of this, he seems to be getting the ball further from the net (14-18 feet out, and sometimes as far as the three point line!), forcing him to make some kind of dribbling move toward the basket. In this situation, he has a very troubling tendency to take a step towards the basket and then fade away -- not his most effective move -- or worse, dribble into traffic and cause a turn over.

I sincerely hope that feeding Mason down low is a focal point of the next few practices, especially since our team has lost a lot of potential scoring punch to injuries. We're gonna need that "low post" Mason, not the "remember that I had guard skills in high school?" Mason.

sporthenry
01-12-2013, 03:37 PM
Like I said in the post game thread, I put some of these issues on the guard play. Mason didn't get the ball a lot in the post. Perhaps it was State's pressure defense but it seemed Duke couldn't put a clean entry pass into Mason without a screen and since Mason is the primary screener, it poses a problem. He tried to direct the offense but it is clear with Kelly that either he can screen or provide his own entry level pass with his height. Either way, Mason had guys on his back and didn't get the ball so he comes to the perimeter to get the ball. And while I'd prefer him not to, he was still effective doing this.

And like I said elsewhere, Mason is affected by his offense. You can see his shoulders slump and him get upset when he doesn't get the ball in obvious situations. I thought Mason could have dominated this game more or at least held his own against Howell/Leslie as some say he got dominated.

But for your NPOY candidate in the first game after a key injury, I would expect him to take over and dominate in the sense of 15+ shots and I would have wanted him to be the 14/14 guy. This probably falls on both the guards and himself but he needs to be more involved if for nothing else, it changes the defense a bit and will open up the 3 point line more.

sagegrouse
01-12-2013, 04:21 PM
I think I might be talking more over the last handful of games than JUST today.


I think you picked a strange time to start a thread questioning Mason's play. A 15 points and 11 rebounds effort going 7-10 from the field is pretty darn impressive. When you add in four steals, two blocks and the fact the performance was against two quality interior players in Richard Howell and C.J. Leslie it becomes super impressive.

He was forced to do more today due to Kelly being unavailable.

I thought spacing was lousy without Ryan on the floor. Measured by observation, by Mason getting the ball too far out, and by the very few assists by Duke -- 10 in 30 FGs, and only Quinn had more than one.

sagegrouse

Duke05
01-12-2013, 06:07 PM
I thought Mason played great today. But to add some support to the FT concerns...

November: 46/57, 81%
Dec/Jan: 35/66, 53%

He shot 53% last year.

It's a bit surprising that he managed 81% on 57 attempts in Nov if his "true" FT% is actually 53% (57 is a fairly good sample size), so I'm hoping his recent %s are a bit below his actual ability. But at this point, I think it's fair to say hoping for ~65% is far more realistic than 80%.

slower
01-12-2013, 09:05 PM
Is it just me, or is Mason getting back to a few of his former habits?

He is doing a lot of dribbling when attacking the hoop, and beginning that dribble both high up and too far from the hoop.

He is fading away and making lateral moves across the court, instead of going right at the basket.

He is missing free throws.

He is hesitating to see what the D does and then trying to react, rather than getting the ball and bulling his way to a basket.

This seems like a recent development as far as this year, and a bit of a step back to bad habits. I know he is seeing doubles, but his reaction to that hasn't been ideal.

Thoughts?

Careful - the "Negative Nellie" police will get you, even if what you say is true.

And no, it's not just you. He HAS reverted at times, whatever the reason.

luked14
01-12-2013, 10:55 PM
I agree with the OP, but we're obviously in the minority on this one. I found myself getting more frustrated at Mason today than anyone else. He didn't play as aggressively on defense as I know he can. There were so many times that he let State players blow by him to the basket (I guess because he was overly cautious to foul). On offense, he hasn't been using his body to gain position once he has the ball, and instead takes several steps across the paint and shoots a ridiculous hook. Dribbling out on the wing and turning the ball over a couple of times was also questionable. Free throws don't bother me, you can't expect a big man to shoot 80% from the line.

I know all that sounds really harsh, and the truth is that Duke loses this game by 20 or more without Mason. He's a great leader which the rest of the team looks up to, and sometimes you expect perfection from a player like Mason, when the reality is that he is bound to make mistakes like everyone else.

vick
01-12-2013, 11:09 PM
I thought Mason played great today. But to add some support to the FT concerns...

November: 46/57, 81%
Dec/Jan: 35/66, 53%

He shot 53% last year.

It's a bit surprising that he managed 81% on 57 attempts in Nov if his "true" FT% is actually 53% (57 is a fairly good sample size), so I'm hoping his recent %s are a bit below his actual ability. But at this point, I think it's fair to say hoping for ~65% is far more realistic than 80%.

More than a bit surprising, I think. I believe the chance of getting 46 (or more) makes on 57 trials with a true percentage of 53% is only 0.000323% if my math is right (binomial distribution, mean 53% with 57 trials). Which is both good and bad, I guess, since it shows that he can do better than the 50s--although I'm skeptical his current form would ever make him a great free throw shooter--but also that there probably is some actual regression rather than just statistical noise.

uh_no
01-12-2013, 11:50 PM
I agree with the OP, but we're obviously in the minority on this one. I found myself getting more frustrated at Mason today than anyone else. He didn't play as aggressively on defense as I know he can. There were so many times that he let State players blow by him to the basket (I guess because he was overly cautious to foul). On offense, he hasn't been using his body to gain position once he has the ball, and instead takes several steps across the paint and shoots a ridiculous hook. Dribbling out on the wing and turning the ball over a couple of times was also questionable. Free throws don't bother me, you can't expect a big man to shoot 80% from the line.

I know all that sounds really harsh, and the truth is that Duke loses this game by 20 or more without Mason. He's a great leader which the rest of the team looks up to, and sometimes you expect perfection from a player like Mason, when the reality is that he is bound to make mistakes like everyone else.

I think losing a 6'11 guy who is among the most efficient defenders in the country as his front-court-mate might have forced him to avoid over committing....appearing as a lack of agression, as you put it

Kedsy
01-13-2013, 12:13 AM
The instances he tried to do "too much", which is what he seems to me to have been doing in the last four or five games, he struggled.

To me it looked very different from the last "four or five" games. Although first of all, let's be clear that it was just the last three games (before today), not four or five. Putting that aside, in the previous three games Mason looked frazzled, like he wasn't expecting the double team and didn't know how to deal with it. He was a little undecisive, even timid. Today it looked to me as if he felt that the only way we were going to score is if he took over. A couple times it worked, the other times it looked like he "tried to do too much." But it looked decisive and definitely not timid.

I think he was reacting to the loss of Ryan and attempting to step up and be a team leader. Which is what we'd want him to do, even if he wasn't completely successful. I'm not worried about Mason at all.

elvis14
01-13-2013, 08:03 AM
I thought Mason intentionally played a little soft on defense today. That's not a criticism. With Ryan out, I think Mason was trying really hard to stay out of foul trouble. It was a bit frustrating at times but I understand.

robobevan
01-13-2013, 08:23 AM
I have to disagree with the original post. Except for a couple times dribbling too far away from the basket, I thought Mason was very impressive today and much better than in his three game 'slump." His moves were quicker and I felt he was going towards the basket rather than fading away. What is amazing is his stamina. I haven't looked at the box score but he played the whole game or close to it. He never seemed to tire and he stayed out of foul trouble.

slower
01-13-2013, 11:20 AM
Finally watched the game on DV-R. Great game by Mason, monster first half. Hopefully, that's the end of his 3-game "regression".

Lord Ash
01-14-2013, 09:27 AM
Okay, I almost hate to do this, but... Mason had a very good first half. But when you look at his stats for this game...

... his scoring was below his average
... his assists were below his average
... his free throw shooting was below his average
... his rebounding was at his average
... his blocks was at his average

Sure, his steals were high (abnormally so) and his shooting percentage was 8% better than normal, but is that enough to make it a great game?

And of course you have to keep in mind that, on the other side of the ball, the guy he was guarding went off for 18 boards (almost twice as good as his season average) and outscored Mason as well. And no one is predicting NPOY awards for Rich Howell.

You would expect a senior leader and NPOY candidate to play well in one of the biggest games of the year, and arguably the biggest ACC game of the year. At Duke we've seen many players do this. I love Mason, but I am not sure if Mason really had such a *great* game, all things considered.

tbyers11
01-14-2013, 09:56 AM
Okay, I almost hate to do this, but... Mason had a very good first half. But when you look at his stats for this game...

... his scoring was below his average
... his assists were below his average
... his free throw shooting was below his average
... his rebounding was at his average
... his blocks was at his average

Sure, his steals were high (abnormally so) and his shooting percentage was 8% better than normal, but is that enough to make it a great game?

And of course you have to keep in mind that, on the other side of the ball, the guy he was guarding went off for 18 boards (almost twice as good as his season average) and outscored Mason as well. And no one is predicting NPOY awards for Rich Howell.

You would expect a senior leader and NPOY candidate to play well in one of the biggest games of the year, and arguably the biggest ACC game of the year. At Duke we've seen many players do this. I love Mason, but I am not sure if Mason really had such a *great* game, all things considered.

I think Mason had a very good game against NC State. I think it is hard to call it a great game since we didn't get the W. You can nitpick his stats but you could also make the counter-argument that it is hard for him to meet his averages because they are quite high due to his stellar play so far this year.

Looking strictly at the stats without context, you miss, IMO, 2 important points. 1) Just because Mason's primary defensive assignment was Howell doesn't mean every rebound that Howell got was one that Mason should have gotten. I remember several occasions where Howell out fought Hairston for an OReb. I thought he did a good job patrolling the middle and going to get several rebounds that weren't in his original space. 2) Mason had to adjust defensively and offensively to not having Ryan around. Particularly on the offensive end I thought he did well in creating offense (either his own shot or passing on the drive) off his own dribble. I feel Mason had been subpar in the previous 3 games before NCST but agree with others that he had a very strong game against NCST.

theAlaskanBear
01-14-2013, 10:13 AM
In defense of Mason, I remember a few times during the game where he posted up or sealed off his man but the guards were afraid/hesitant to pass the ball down low. I have to say it looked the length and size of NC State really bothered our guards. Again, where Kelly would have been helpful is feeding Mason in the post because he can see/throw over the top of defenders.

jipops
01-14-2013, 10:15 AM
If we have to complain about our big man going 7-10 every game for the rest of this season, then I think we'll be in good shape.

Kedsy
01-14-2013, 11:09 AM
You would expect a senior leader and NPOY candidate to play well in one of the biggest games of the year, and arguably the biggest ACC game of the year. At Duke we've seen many players do this. I love Mason, but I am not sure if Mason really had such a *great* game, all things considered.

Personally, I think going 15 and 11 (on 70% shooting), with 2 blocks and 4 steals against a team whose number one priority was stopping you is pretty great. With the possible exception of a recent three game slide, Mason has been great all season -- that's why he's in the NPOY conversation. Just because his play showed about the same amount of greatness as it has most of the year and he wasn't greater than great against NCSU, doesn't mean we should start labeling his outstanding performances as average.

jv001
01-14-2013, 11:17 AM
If I wanted to lay a reason for our loss at NC State, I could find a better example than our senior center. He played hard the entire game(40 mins). He shot 7 -10 with another double-double. But I'm not going to throw any of our players under the ole roy "bus". It is a fact that our team didn't play it's best game without it's 6'11" PF. Then to top that off we lose our best scoring guard for the last few minutes in a game that really had not been decided. I'm more concerned with injuries than I am with throwing negative comments to our players, especially one that came back for his senior year rather than going for the big bucks. GoDuke!

dyedwab
01-14-2013, 11:54 AM
If I wanted to lay a reason for our loss at NC State, I could find a better example than our senior center. He played hard the entire game(40 mins). He shot 7 -10 with another double-double. But I'm not going to throw any of our players under the ole roy "bus". It is a fact that our team didn't play it's best game without it's 6'11" PF. Then to top that off we lose our best scoring guard for the last few minutes in a game that really had not been decided. I'm more concerned with injuries than I am with throwing negative comments to our players, especially one that came back for his senior year rather than going for the big bucks. GoDuke!

This. Mason, who is the one guy the other teams game plan for, had a game nearly at his season averages against 1) a team that has two excellent, veteran big men - not something he will regularly see while adjusting to 2) the absence of our other experienced big man who 3) has a unique game that changes the way other teams play both offense and defense while he was being replaced by 4) unproven offensive players who have not yet proved to be as skilled defensively either.

That Mason performed at the level he did, in that game, is praiseworthy. In fact, it illustrates to me one of the key components that make this team great - it's best and most important player (Mason) raises his game when its most necessary.

azzefkram
01-14-2013, 12:02 PM
Okay, I almost hate to do this, but... Mason had a very good first half. But when you look at his stats for this game...

... his scoring was below his average
... his assists were below his average
... his free throw shooting was below his average
... his rebounding was at his average
... his blocks was at his average

Sure, his steals were high (abnormally so) and his shooting percentage was 8% better than normal, but is that enough to make it a great game?

And of course you have to keep in mind that, on the other side of the ball, the guy he was guarding went off for 18 boards (almost twice as good as his season average) and outscored Mason as well. And no one is predicting NPOY awards for Rich Howell.

You would expect a senior leader and NPOY candidate to play well in one of the biggest games of the year, and arguably the biggest ACC game of the year. At Duke we've seen many players do this. I love Mason, but I am not sure if Mason really had such a *great* game, all things considered.

Small Sample Size. As for Howell, Mason was our lone quality big and I'd imagine fouls were a concern.

Lord Ash
01-14-2013, 03:34 PM
Just to be clear, I certainly would NOT say Mason was THE cause, or even a major cause, for our loss at State.

It was FAR more about losing Ryan, about playing a very good team playing well on their home floor in their Superbowl, about Seth battling injury and actually going out, about Sheed and Tyler struggling.

However, Mason did not have what I would consider a great game, in that his numbers were somewhat average for him, his opposite/defensive assignment pulled in nearly career numbers in several categories, and he was not able to put the team on his back for a win down the stretch (which some Duke players have done over the years). Some of this might be expected or understandable given the context, but I think there are plenty of examples of players facing obstacles and rising far above it with a career game. That's all I'm saying as far as NC State.

As for the OP, well, that was more aimed at the games before State... the State game actually felt like he was getting back to some of the stuff that made him so successful earlier in the year, although there were still flashes of not-so-great.

Bob Green
01-14-2013, 03:39 PM
If I was to criticize a portion of Mason's game against NCSU, it would be that he only attempted 10 field goals. However, I would immediately point out that to attempt field goals one must be given the ball when in a scoring position. Multiple times Mason did not receive a pass when he had good inside position. In the end, basketball is a team game. It takes all five guys on the court working together toward a common goal to achieve success.

Kedsy
01-14-2013, 03:44 PM
If I was to criticize a portion of Mason's game against NCSU, it would be that he only attempted 10 field goals. However, I would immediately point out that to attempt field goals one must be given the ball when in a scoring position. Multiple times Mason did not receive a pass when he had good inside position. In the end, basketball is a team game. It takes all five guys on the court working together toward a common goal to achieve success.

He was also only able to draw a couple of fouls, against a somewhat foul-prove NCSU frontcourt. Although again that might be explained by him not getting the ball enough.

DukeCrow
01-14-2013, 03:51 PM
I'm not going to insert my opinion here because I think Mason is great and is obviously one of the main reasons this year's team is so strong. I'll just list the following as to why I think some people view his game against NCSU as good/great and others not so good/great.

1st half: 10 pts, 8 rebounds.
2nd half: 5 pts, 3 rebounds.

rsvman
01-14-2013, 03:52 PM
In my opinion, the only part of Mason's game that truly seems to be regressing is his free throw shooting. I had a lot more confidence when he was at the line four games ago then I do now.

I thought he played very well against NC State.

roywhite
01-14-2013, 04:06 PM
If I was to criticize a portion of Mason's game against NCSU, it would be that he only attempted 10 field goals. However, I would immediately point out that to attempt field goals one must be given the ball when in a scoring position. Multiple times Mason did not receive a pass when he had good inside position. In the end, basketball is a team game. It takes all five guys on the court working together toward a common goal to achieve success.

Yeah, I'm not in there breaking down film with Coach K and the staff, but I suspect they are noticing that Mason did not have the room to operate that he might have had when his compatriot and "stretch 4" Ryan Kelly was in the lineup. Spacing on offense is just one area hurt by Ryan's absence.

As to the difference between first half and second half, most likely NC State made some adjustments, plus we know Leslie and Howell played great.