MBB: Duke 80, Wake Forest 62 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Les Grossman]

with big contributions by Seth and Quinn

[Ggallagher]

I really liked seeing all the times the ball was passed into Mason - and then he kicked it back out immediately. If the strategy against us is going to be to double down and hammer Mason - that fast kick out could work really great for us.
And it wouldn't hurt to pass it right back to him while the defenders are trying to adjust.
Nice game Duke.

[Edouble]

Not really the story of the game, but I thought Alex looked a bit tighter/springier today, like he had lost a little body fat %age or done some plyometrics or something. Hard to say, as the sample size of minutes has been small, but he just looked better to me.

[Saratoga2]

Ryan is showing how valuable he is to the team. When the defense packs in on Mason, Ryan can loosen them up. Also we needed Seth to produce points today and he did. Quinn was an assist machine today, but his shot didn't fall even once. He kept shooting but without results. Next game he will shake that off. Rasheed is in the process of learning how to deal with the more physical college game. He has what it takes and he will improve his offensive efficiency with time.Mason got going in the second half after a really slow start and put up a double double. I am glad for him as another bad game would start him questioning himself. He took what was available and did fine.

I was glad to see coach K give Marshall, Alex and Amile some PT, considering we had a safe lead.

Good day overall. The foul shooting was bad and for a long while we relied on the 3 point shot. We still got out-rebounded.

[DukieInBrasil]

Mason is still playing really well, even though his scoring has been down the last 2 games, his FG% has been very good, FT%, not so much. He's still rebounding at a high rate, getting yet another 2x-double today. Strange that his kickout passes didn't lead to more assists, but when he's double teamed like he has been the last two games, he's got to find open people, and he has been.
Ryan continues to be super-hot from the floor, he's now shooting 50% 3FGs for the year. Seth had a solid game, but cooled off a bit at the end, missing some shots and those final 2 FTs. But Rasheed really got himself going much better in the 2nd part of the 2nd half.
It was also nice to see all of our reserve players contribute something: Tyler and Josh did their thing, Alex was 2-2 FGs w/a board and a block, Amile with 2 boards and Marshall with his first FG of the year! + a block. Hopefully, that first bucket will do the same for Marshall that it did for Alex, ie., Alex missed his first few shots and was looking really lost on O, but after he made that first one on a lay-up from a nice pass (same as MP3s 1st), he has been shooting quite well.

Solid win overall, but K brought the subs in and they couldn't maintain the lead, and had to bring the starters back in to prevent an upset. Otherwise it would have been a much bigger margin.

[-bdbd]

Great performance by Ryan Kelly yet again. I just love that kid's heady, full-effort game. As a coach, that's the guy I'd want my players emulating the most. His head is always in the game, and it is no accident that he often is just in the right place at the right time. Great defense too.

Seth also came through in the clutch for us today. I hope both of these guys get a shot at playing in The Association next year. MP2 had an OK game, but not stellar. Passing back out quickly was a clear improvement over the Davidson game.

Not sure what to make of Cook's shooting woes. His passing was awesome, and decent D, but that is the sort of shooting performance that can mess with a kid's head. If he doesn't shake it, then other teams will just back off and pack it inside, and dare Cook to beat them by shooting.

Also was pleased to see Murphy, AJ and MP3 getting some good minutes.

Overall solid representation, but clearly room to improve. :)

[FerryFor50]

Not really the story of the game, but I thought Alex looked a bit tighter/springier today, like he had lost a little body fat %age or done some plyometrics or something. Hard to say, as the sample size of minutes has been small, but he just looked better to me.

No, he just got a haircut.

[dukelifer]

I was impressed with Quinn today. He could have let the 0-fer get to him- but he continued to doll out assists and he was a pest on D. He missed a lot of shots he usually makes- just a strange game for him. Teams are double teaming Mason so other guys will need to make them pay. Kelly is thus the most critical guy on the floor for Duke. He is a real match up problem and he can hit from anywhere. Teams will have to pick their poison with that strategy. Rasheed is must better when takes it strong to the basket. He sometimes gets smaller when he gets to the basket rather than going up/ He is still learning- but he is the most explosive player Duke has and needs to take advantage of the space teams will give him. The next most explosive player is Murphy. He is slowing starting to gain confidence out there. He needs to do it on a consistent basis but I think he could be turning a corner and could give Duke another weapon. If all he does is rebound and take it to the basket- he can contribute. Also kudos to Coach K for playing a lot of players in the middle of the game. When he put the "blue" team I could not figure out who would score- but I think he wanted Murphy and others to take charge. Duke did not play a great at the end of the game and let Wake get some easy buckets- but a big win that was never in doubt is always a good way to start the ACC season.

[roywhite]

Boxscore Duke 80 -- Wake 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205876962)

As noted, what a strange game and stat line for Quinn:
38 minutes
0-11 shooting
0 points
14 assists
1 turnover

team was 11-22 from the line

Wake -- 8 assists, 19 turnovers
Duke -- 22 assists, 6 turnovers

[Kedsy]

Ryan continues to be super-hot from the floor, he's now shooting 50% 3FGs for the year.

Throughout his Duke career, Ryan has been a very streaky outside shooter. In the first six games of this season, he shot 3 for 17 from 3-land (17.6%). In the last eight games, he's gone 19 for 29 (65.5%), which is pretty amazing for a 6'11" guy putting up 3.6 threes a game.


Marshall with his first FG of the year!

I suppose this is obvious, but it was the first point(s) of Marshall's Duke career.


Solid win overall, but K brought the subs in and they couldn't maintain the lead

Obviously a small sample size, but it made it a bit easier to see why Coach K likes to play his starters a lot of minutes.

[dyedwab]

Boxscore Duke 80 -- Wake 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205876962)

As noted, what a strange game and stat line for Quinn:
38 minutes
0-11 shooting
0 points
14 assists
1 turnover


Didn't Nolan have a weird pts/assists stat line like in a game?

All in all, a nice win and a good way to start ACC play.

[vick]

Didn't Nolan have a weird pts/assists stat line like in a game?

0-8 FG (0-4 from 3) and 2-4 from the line for 2 points with 10 assists and 2 TOs against Bradley (which I think was the first game Kyrie missed, actually).

[jv001]

Throughout his Duke career, Ryan has been a very streaky outside shooter. In the first six games of this season, he shot 3 for 17 from 3-land (17.6%). In the last eight games, he's gone 19 for 29 (65.5%), which is pretty amazing for a 6'11" guy putting up 3.6 threes a game.



I suppose this is obvious, but it was the first point(s) of Marshall's Duke career.



Obviously a small sample size, but it made it a bit easier to see why Coach K likes to play his starters a lot of minutes.

Ryan is the glue that holds this team together. We saw how his injury and absence last year really hurt us. I know some people don't think he's a good college ball player because he doesn't put up great rebounding numbers. But it's not easy to rebound the way Coach K uses him in his offense.

I was thinking the same thing when our reserves gave up that 25 point lead. Our offense and defense both suffered while they were all in at the same time. Even though for a short stretch, Quinn was the pg. I did however like the play of Alex Murphy. He does seem to be very athletic and will be a good player before he leaves Duke. GoDuke!

[Furniture]

I'd like to see Alex get a few more minutes with the seniors and Cook!

[Duke76]

I'd like to see Alex get a few more minutes with the seniors and Cook!

The guys hit Mason on the pick and roll....I think he set like 2,000 picks today and didn't get but one pass to convert....on the pick and roll.....he isn't double teamed and he is moving to the basket....when he gets the ball isolated in the low post unless he rolls to the baseline he gets doubled team which creates the problems for him....pick and roll frees him up much more, imo

[mapei]

I thought the game today was . . . kind of boring? I suppose that's what we should hope for against a team as bad as Wake appears to be; I lost count of how many close-range shots they missed.

Quinn is proving to be very good, discounting all those misses that I think were just unlucky. Ryan was phenomenal with the 3 (I hesitate to call it a "jumper"). I'm not sure I'm noticing his excellent D (he had a high foul-to-minute ratio today, for example), but I know others on this board are far more sophisticated observers of basketball than I am. Mason seems to me to be more like last year's Mason than like the NPOY candidate we saw last month. It's not just the FTs; he doesn't seem to be quick enough to finish before the help comes - I think *sometimes* he passes out quickly, but not quickly enough at other times. His rebounding does seem to be superb. Seth is streaky (good lately), and Rasheed is learning.

I LOVE watching Tyler. His energy changes the game.

We're capable of a convincing win against State. But so are they against us.

[gep]

... Mason seems to me to be more like last year's Mason than like the NPOY candidate we saw last month. It's not just the FTs; he doesn't seem to be quick enough to finish before the help comes - I think *sometimes* he passes out quickly, but not quickly enough at other times. His rebounding does seem to be superb. ...

I thought the same thing. Maybe in the Nov-Dec games, opposing team "expected" last year's Mason, and game-planned for that, and Mason went *off*. So, Davidson started concentrating on Mason... and so the double- and triple-teams on Mason. But with Mason passing out very well, and the shooters make their shots, who knows what the next games will be like... :confused:

[Duke76]

I thought the game today was . . . kind of boring? I suppose that's what we should hope for against a team as bad as Wake appears to be; I lost count of how many close-range shots they missed.

Quinn is proving to be very good, discounting all those misses that I think were just unlucky. Ryan was phenomenal with the 3 (I hesitate to call it a "jumper"). I'm not sure I'm noticing his excellent D (he had a high foul-to-minute ratio today, for example), but I know others on this board are far more sophisticated observers of basketball than I am. Mason seems to me to be more like last year's Mason than like the NPOY candidate we saw last month. It's not just the FTs; he doesn't seem to be quick enough to finish before the help comes - I think *sometimes* he passes out quickly, but not quickly enough at other times. His rebounding does seem to be superb. Seth is streaky (good lately), and Rasheed is learning.

I LOVE watching Tyler. His energy changes the game.

We're capable of a convincing win against State. But so are they against us.


That's my point on Mason, he is quicker when he is rolling to the basket....he lumbers when he gets the ball on the left wing and moves to the center..and that's when he picks up the double....unless he goes to the baseline (where his move seems quicker and stronger) he gets stuck.....or he needs to develop the jump hook...just
posting up without trying to dribble....but the guards gotta give it to him on the pick and roll or it's gets really frustrating....

That was one our beefs last year with Austin.....he never gave up the ball on the pick and roll

[basket1544]

We're capable of a convincing win against State. But so are they against us.

State will bring a better game against Duke than they did today against BC, but BC almost won that one. Let's hope that we're convincing in our game against State.

[subzero02]

not one of our better days from the foul line... Mason's ability to make foul shots will be huge as we go on the road in conference

[summerwind03]

After the game, Quinn came out and took at least a couple of hundred shots. I've never seen a player do that before. I'm impressed. (Plus, he and all the other players were super nice to my son when he asked for autographs after the game.)

[subzero02]

After the game, Quinn came out and took at least a couple of hundred shots. I've never seen a player do that before. I'm impressed. (Plus, he and all the other players were super nice to my son when he asked for autographs after the game.)

Did he make any?... Jk, couldn't resist

[Saratoga2]

I'd like to see Alex get a few more minutes with the seniors and Cook!

Saying we gave up part of the lead with the reserves in is misleading. If one or the reserves played with 4 starters, you might not notice much difference than with 5 starters. So it a little unfair for some here to imply the reserves are really inferior. Maybe as a group together, but maybe there are 1 or 2 who are equivalent to the starters.

[Kedsy]

Maybe as a group together, but maybe there are 1 or 2 who are equivalent to the starters.

Which one or two, and which starters?

[mapei]

Which one or two, and which starters?

I'll bite. Tyler, IMO, is roughly equivalent to Seth or Rasheed. Each has his own strengths and weaknesses but, when considered as a whole, there isn't a lot of difference there. After Tyler, though, I do think there's a significant drop-off from the starters to the reserves. We miss Dawkins.

[Kedsy]

I'll bite. Tyler, IMO, is roughly equivalent to Seth or Rasheed. Each has his own strengths and weaknesses but, when considered as a whole, there isn't a lot of difference there.

I totally disagree with this. There are a lot of plusses to Tyler's game -- spunk and toughness and leadership and strong help defense and all that -- but he is nowhere near the equivalent of Seth or Rasheed as a starter. First of all, our offense would be significantly and unarguably worse with Tyler as a starter than either of the other two. And on defense, while Tyler is good he's a bit overrated by us fans -- Rasheed is a much better defender, and while I admit Tyler is a better defender than Seth, he's (a) foul prone; and (b) not so much better that the improved team defense would come anywhere near making up for the offensive shortfall.

[jimsumner]

I totally disagree with this. There are a lot of plusses to Tyler's game -- spunk and toughness and leadership and strong help defense and all that -- but he is nowhere near the equivalent of Seth or Rasheed as a starter. First of all, our offense would be significantly and unarguably worse with Tyler as a starter than either of the other two. And on defense, while Tyler is good he's a bit overrated by us fans -- Rasheed is a much better defender, and while I admit Tyler is a better defender than Seth, he's (a) foul prone; and (b) not so much better that the improved team defense would come anywhere near making up for the offensive shortfall.

Thornton is averaging around 22 minutes per game. So, a case can be made that he's not a reserve in the sense that Hairston, Jefferson, Murphy and Marshall are reserves. Call him the sixth starter, if you will.

[Wander]

Thornton is averaging around 22 minutes per game. So, a case can be made that he's not a reserve in the sense that Hairston, Jefferson, Murphy and Marshall are reserves. Call him the sixth starter, if you will.

But that's still significantly less minutes than all five starters. I don't think the "sixth starter" label applies here. He's above the other reserves, but also pretty clearly below the starting five.

[Kedsy]

Thornton is averaging around 22 minutes per game. So, a case can be made that he's not a reserve in the sense that Hairston, Jefferson, Murphy and Marshall are reserves. Call him the sixth starter, if you will.

I agree he's not a reserve in the same sense as the others. I'd call him the top reserve getting strong rotation minutes. I know it's arbitrary, but to me "starter's minutes" at Duke are in the upper twenties or thirties, especially for perimeter players (sometimes Coach K appears to play young big men starters in the low twenties).

Having said that, I think the team would not be performing at close to the same level if Tyler was playing 30+ minutes at the expense of either Seth or Rasheed, so to the original point I don't think he's an "equivalent" to either of those players.

[azzefkram]

Obviously a small sample size, but it made it a bit easier to see why Coach K likes to play his starters a lot of minutes.

Not in the least, 4 back-ups (three of which are used sparingly) plus Cook tells us very little regardless of sample size. Mixing them in with the starters would probably give a better indication. Coach K is who he is and while I'd love to see him utilize Amile, Alex and Marshall more, I'm pretty sure it won't happen.

[roywhite]

What's a post-game recap without Top Plays from Duke Blue Planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHWsJdKJbOo)?

Great to see the players having fun.

[vick]

I totally disagree with this. There are a lot of plusses to Tyler's game -- spunk and toughness and leadership and strong help defense and all that -- but he is nowhere near the equivalent of Seth or Rasheed as a starter. First of all, our offense would be significantly and unarguably worse with Tyler as a starter than either of the other two. And on defense, while Tyler is good he's a bit overrated by us fans -- Rasheed is a much better defender, and while I admit Tyler is a better defender than Seth, he's (a) foul prone; and (b) not so much better that the improved team defense would come anywhere near making up for the offensive shortfall.

I totally agree, and just to put some numbers behind the foul aspect, Tyler's averaging 4.6 fouls per 40 minutes this season (which is an improvement), but against the five best teams we've played according to Pomeroy (UK, Minnesota, VCU, UL, and OSU), he's committed 16 fouls in only 90 minutes of play, or a whopping 7.1 fouls/40 minutes.

This isn't a criticism of Tyler, by the way--I'm confident if he weren't playing defense the way the coaching staff wanted, he wouldn't be on the floor, particularly given his limited offensive skill set. But it's one thing to come off the bench to be an aggressive defender and another when people are talking about him playing starter's minutes--I don't think he could keep up the same defensive intensity against high-level competition without getting in fairly constant foul trouble.

[toooskies]

I totally agree, and just to put some numbers behind the foul aspect, Tyler's averaging 4.6 fouls per 40 minutes this season (which is an improvement), but against the five best teams we've played according to Pomeroy (UK, Minnesota, VCU, UL, and OSU), he's committed 16 fouls in only 90 minutes of play, or a whopping 7.1 fouls/40 minutes.

This isn't a criticism of Tyler, by the way--I'm confident if he weren't playing defense the way the coaching staff wanted, he wouldn't be on the floor, particularly given his limited offensive skill set. But it's one thing to come off the bench to be an aggressive defender and another when people are talking about him playing starter's minutes--I don't think he could keep up the same defensive intensity against high-level competition without getting in fairly constant foul trouble.

The thing to consider with Tyler's fouls is that they are rarely shooting fouls. Tyler has two defensive modes, normal and bulldog. Bulldog mode does foul a lot, and that's by design to take the other team out of its rhythm. It keeps the other team from getting easy shots. These non-shooting fouls aren't costly, especially when talking about a bench player. Bulldog mode can't be maintained that long (both because of fouls and the energy expended), but that's fine with Tyler's current role. He'd have to play normal if he were a starter, though, and at that point I don't think he has a significant defensive edge over Curry.

[Kedsy]

Bulldog mode can't be maintained that long (both because of fouls and the energy expended), but that's fine with Tyler's current role.

It's better than "fine." It's really good, it fires up our team, it disrupts our opponents, it's exactly what the coaching staff wants him to do.


He'd have to play normal if he were a starter, though, and at that point I don't think he has a significant defensive edge over Curry.

This, I think, is the key counter-argument to those who think Tyler should be playing starter's minutes. If Tyler were less aggressive, he'd obviously still have his positioning knack, but without the aggressiveness his feet aren't quick enough to be a strong plus defender. Considering he's a bit of a one trick pony (maybe two, if you count his ability to knock down wide open, nobody-near-him threes), if you take away the one trick he'd be a huge step down from Seth.

[jimsumner]

I agree he's not a reserve in the same sense as the others. I'd call him the top reserve getting strong rotation minutes. I know it's arbitrary, but to me "starter's minutes" at Duke are in the upper twenties or thirties, especially for perimeter players (sometimes Coach K appears to play young big men starters in the low twenties).

Having said that, I think the team would not be performing at close to the same level if Tyler was playing 30+ minutes at the expense of either Seth or Rasheed, so to the original point I don't think he's an "equivalent" to either of those players.

Thornton's mpg average is closer to Ryan Kelly's than it is to Josh Hairston's. By a good margin. Perhaps more importantly, he's not likely to lose any of those minutes as the season progresses, unless Murphy starts to get major PT at the 3 and moves Sulaimon more to the 2. The ratio of PT amongst Hairston, Murphy, Jefferson and Marshall at the 4/5 seems more fluid.

[Starter]

Thornton's mpg average is closer to Ryan Kelly's than it is to Josh Hairston's. By a good margin. Perhaps more importantly, he's not likely to lose any of those minutes as the season progresses, unless Murphy starts to get major PT at the 3 and moves Sulaimon more to the 2. The ratio of PT amongst Hairston, Murphy, Jefferson and Marshall at the 4/5 seems more fluid.

I get what you're saying in that Thornton does play borderline starter minutes, but he's still not a starting-caliber player. I mean, he's attempted six two-point shots in 14 games and averages under four points. At least two of the guys you named are more credible scoring threats, and perhaps all four, if given the opportunity. Thornton is a situational backup who's been solid in the role referred to in this thread, and plays heavy minutes because the coaching staff is more comfortable with him than with anybody else on the bench. I think that's more than enough to give him plenty of value; I see no reason to consider him a "sixth starter," though. When I think of that designation, I think of Chris Duhon in 2000-01 (until he became an actual starter), Corey Maggette in 1998-99, Mike Dunleavy in 1999-2000 and Jon Scheyer in 2007-08. If any of those players were required to start games due to injury or whatever, they probably would have seamlessly transitioned into the starting lineup. Those guys all had scoring ability and were easily starting-caliber players; they just happened to have five guys ahead of them in the rotation. We can't necessarily say the same thing if Thornton were pressed into larger action in place of Curry, Sulaimon or Cook. We'd also lose the assets Thornton brings as a key reserve, which have been considerable this season.

[uh_no]

I get what you're saying in that Thornton does play borderline starter minutes, but he's still not a starting-caliber player. I mean, he's attempted six two-point shots in 14 games and averages under four points. At least two of the guys you named are more credible scoring threats, and perhaps all four, if given the opportunity. Thornton is a situational backup who's been solid in the role referred to in this thread, and plays heavy minutes because the coaching staff is more comfortable with him than with anybody else on the bench. I think that's more than enough to give him plenty of value; I see no reason to consider him a "sixth starter," though. When I think of that designation, I think of Chris Duhon in 2000-01 (until he became an actual starter), Corey Maggette in 1998-99, Mike Dunleavy in 1999-2000 and Jon Scheyer in 2007-08. If any of those players were required to start games due to injury or whatever, they probably would have seamlessly transitioned into the starting lineup. Those guys all had scoring ability and were easily starting-caliber players; they just happened to have five guys ahead of them in the rotation. We can't necessarily say the same thing if Thornton were pressed into larger action in place of Curry, Sulaimon or Cook. We'd also lose the assets Thornton brings as a key reserve, which have been considerable this season.

Fortunately, scoring isn't the only valuable skill on a basketball team. I seem to recall him starting a fair share of games last year. In fact, he has 25 starts on his career...so apparently he is a starting caliber player on a team currently loaded with talent.

[Starter]

Fortunately, scoring isn't the only valuable skill on a basketball team. I seem to recall him starting a fair share of games last year. In fact, he has 25 starts on his career...so apparently he is a starting caliber player on a team currently loaded with talent.

I'm not going to get into specifics here -- no point, I'd rather stick to the positives that Thornton has to offer -- but I stand by what I said. And this year's team is different from last year's team in several ways, one of which being that Cook has been deemed healthy enough and ready enough to excel to start at point guard.

[Wander]

Thornton's mpg average is closer to Ryan Kelly's than it is to Josh Hairston's. By a good margin.

But Kelly's is closer to Mason's than it is to Thornton's. And the margin there is nearly the same as in Thornton/Kelly/Hairston comparison.

Tyler's a valuable part of the team and a great 6th man. Maybe he'll even end up starting more games for us this year due to injuries or whatever. But right now he's a noticeable step below the other 5 starters. Not like, say, Scheyer in 2008.

[gumbomoop]

Thornton's mpg average is closer to Ryan Kelly's than it is to Josh Hairston's.

It's for this reason that I think it's accurate to characterize Duke's rotation this season thus far as 6 and 1/2 players. K plays his starters a lot, uses Tyler to relieve all 3 perimeter spots, and uses Josh, sparingly, to relieve the 2 interior players.

Possibly Marshall will emerge as a rotation guy, but he'd likely simply take some of Josh's minutes. For the remainder of the season, in close games, I expect to see this tight [6 and 1/2] rotation. Maybe it will be the 6, with Marshall and Josh each playing 5-7 mpg. Or maybe it will be the 6, with either Josh or Marshall playing 10-12 mpg. Or maybe some games, it will be Josh, other games, Marshall. Maybe in the occasional game Amile will get in the first half, play well, and get the 7th-man minutes.

But as several posters have noted, the starters are just playing substantially better than any of the reserves, with Tyler having a clear, very valuable role as 6th man. In close games, except for big foul trouble in any particular close game, we're unlikely to see the 7th man - whether that's a single player or 2 players - play more than 10-12 minutes total. And possibly a little less.

[Edouble]

Thornton is a situational backup who's been solid in the role referred to in this thread, and plays heavy minutes because the coaching staff is more comfortable with him than with anybody else on the bench.

Can you explain this a little? He plays at all points in all games. Situational?


Fortunately, scoring isn't the only valuable skill on a basketball team.

Thank you. Especially when the team is already so offensively competent.

[uh_no]

I'm not going to get into specifics here -- no point, I'd rather stick to the positives that Thornton has to offer -- but I stand by what I said. And this year's team is different from last year's team in several ways, one of which being that Cook has been deemed healthy enough and ready enough to excel to start at point guard.

I was simply countering your assertion that he is not a starting caliber player, which simply is not true. Is quinn better than him? absolutely.

If tyler wasn't starter caliber, he wouldn't have started >50% of the games last year. The changes in the team and personnel around him doesn't change his caliber as a player....if quinn wasn't there, he'd be starting, 100%...i'm not sure that would be true if he wasn't "starter caliber"

[jimsumner]

But Kelly's is closer to Mason's than it is to Thornton's. And the margin there is nearly the same as in Thornton/Kelly/Hairston comparison.

Tyler's a valuable part of the team and a great 6th man. Maybe he'll even end up starting more games for us this year due to injuries or whatever. But right now he's a noticeable step below the other 5 starters. Not like, say, Scheyer in 2008.

But he's a noticeable step above the other reserves. He's played twice as many minutes as any other reserve. Kelly has played 405 minutes, Thornton 306, Hairston 153. Thornton is closer to the fifth starter than the second reserve. He's closer to Sulaimon's 423 than he is to Hairston. So, I think Thornton belongs in a different discussion than the one involving the four front-court reserves, who have combined for a modest 345 minutes.

[vick]

Especially when the team is already so offensively competent.

But they're offensively competent because the three perimeter players who play over Tyler are just far better than him at offense. You seem (here and before) to assume that this would hold up even if you start giving increased minutes to someone with an incredibly limited offensive skill set, and that's a weird assumption. It's not like Duke is wildly unbalanced between offense and defense as is anyway--sixth in offensive efficiency and eighth in defense according to Pomeroy.

[wilko]

I think Thornton belongs in a different discussion than the one involving the four front-court reserves, who have combined for a modest 345 minutes.

Considering Andre needed some time away, Seth isnt 100%, Rodney HAS to sit AND we are starting a Freshman SG - is it a great surprise Tyler is getting all the time he can stand?

To his credit, when he is on the court he is being productive for the most part.

[mike88]

The thing to consider with Tyler's fouls is that they are rarely shooting fouls. Tyler has two defensive modes, normal and bulldog. Bulldog mode does foul a lot, and that's by design to take the other team out of its rhythm. It keeps the other team from getting easy shots. These non-shooting fouls aren't costly, especially when talking about a bench player. Bulldog mode can't be maintained that long (both because of fouls and the energy expended), but that's fine with Tyler's current role. He'd have to play normal if he were a starter, though, and at that point I don't think he has a significant defensive edge over Curry.

One thing that Coach K has made a point of emphasis throughout his career is not making bad fouls. Whether the foul committed is a shooting foul or not, it puts the other team closer to shooting free throws through the bonus. I would agree that for this year's team, it is tolerable (because we need that level of aggressiveness), but I am hoping that Tyler can continue to improve so that he can apply high-value pressure without fouling- if he does, he could reach the level of some of the great defenders in Duke history.

[Starter]

Can you explain this a little? He plays at all points in all games. Situational?



Perhaps I should have picked a different word? I didn't mean that he only plays during certain minute marks of the game or whatever. I just figured it'd be clear from my context that I meant he has a clearly defined role that specifically focuses on the positive things he brings to the table. He's in to play frenetic defense, wreak some havoc and handle the ball a bit, with the occasional open three-pointer thrown in.


I was simply countering your assertion that he is not a starting caliber player, which simply is not true. Is quinn better than him? absolutely.

If tyler wasn't starter caliber, he wouldn't have started >50% of the games last year. The changes in the team and personnel around him doesn't change his caliber as a player....if quinn wasn't there, he'd be starting, 100%...i'm not sure that would be true if he wasn't "starter caliber"

We just disagree, that's all. It happens. (Not often, I find we usually agree.) I just can't imagine many Duke teams Thornton would have started on since I started as a student in 1997. Last year might have been the only one, in fact, with Kyrie having left after one season and Cook deemed not quite ready to take the mantle. I do agree he'd be starting this year if they didn't have Cook, but only if also they somehow didn't recruit any other pedigreed point guards over the past several years. But I'm ecstatic with how he's being used and how he's playing as a reserve this season.

[Billy Dat]

Aside from the points already made on this thread...

-It seems like Cook and Rasheed are developing a real defensive chemistry. They always seem to pump each other up after big defensive plays, and I think they are getting much better and that first line of defense is a big improvement over last year. I know it's easy to focus on player's offensive performance, or lack of one, but both of these guys are working so hard on defense that maybe it's like when a toddler is learning to walk and talk, when they progress in one area the other lies dormant for a while. That being said, Sheed still has 1-2 big drives a game, and Cook is getting in the lane. Maybe he should watch some (dare I say it) Ty Lawson tape for effective ways to finish 5 feet and in. He actually reminds me most of Baylor's PG Tweety Carter that we faced in the Elite Eight in 2010.

-This will be an interesting phase for our team offensively because teams are clearly game planning around Mason, something that wasn't happening earlier in the year. Our starting 5 has the potential to be a "pick your poison" group. Clearly Curry can fill it up, and Kelly, as he brilliantly showed yesterday, can really take advantage of single coverage whether off the bounce or losing his man and spotting up. If Mason can continue to show patience, pass out of those doubles, and help get the other guys off, then he'll get his. As a team, and I put a chunk of this on Quinn - we can't forget about Mason, and especially need to look for him as he repeatedly sprints down the court in transition.

-I liked MP3s energy level yesterday. He's still kind of in "chicken with head cut off" mode, but he covers a lot of ground. That being said, Hairston drew at least 3 charges which were high impact plays.

-Classic K on developing depth, from the post game presser:
“The development of our starters is much more important than the development of our depth. The development of every player is important. We are dealing in an injured player in Seth [Curry]. I know because he’s playing you think everything is good, but he’s not. He’s had gutty performances. Ryan [Kelly] was hurt during the holidays. He tweaked his foot. They have to be ready to go. And also for your future. Those three kids – Amile, Alex and Marshall – are really good players. They’re playing behind three seniors. It’s a different dynamic. There’s more separation than normal. And that’s good. That’s why we’re 14-0. It’s why we’ve won. You have to develop your depth and young guys in a little bit different way with this team.”

-Pre-game, many people said that Wake was terrible. They were right, but mostly because they are so green. They had a TON of unforced turnovers and poor quality fouls.

[Starter]

Good post by Billy Dat. I don't think Mason's going to see double coverage for long with four lethal three-point shooters in the lineup with him, especially with Kelly playing at the level he currently is. I've grown to like him so much over the years as his athleticism has improved and he's rounded into a multi-talented player on both ends.

And Billy is right about Cook and Sulaimon developing chemistry and making Duke that much better on defense. To have mostly the same personnel and go from No. 70 in Kenpom all the way to the Top 10 is nothing short of remarkable, a credit to coaching and steady improvement in the players the team retained, plus the arrival of a talent like Sulaimon.

[slower]

What's a post-game recap without Top Plays from Duke Blue Planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHWsJdKJbOo)?

Great to see the players having fun.

Marshall EATS the microphone!!

No matter what he does for the remainder of his time at Duke - even if he never scores another point - I will always be thankful for the Marshall Plumlee years. The kid is awesome.

[FerryFor50]

Perhaps I should have picked a different word? I didn't mean that he only plays during certain minute marks of the game or whatever. I just figured it'd be clear from my context that I meant he has a clearly defined role that specifically focuses on the positive things he brings to the table. He's in to play frenetic defense, wreak some havoc and handle the ball a bit, with the occasional open three-pointer thrown in.



We just disagree, that's all. It happens. (Not often, I find we usually agree.) I just can't imagine many Duke teams Thornton would have started on since I started as a student in 1997. Last year might have been the only one, in fact, with Kyrie having left after one season and Cook deemed not quite ready to take the mantle. I do agree he'd be starting this year if they didn't have Cook, but only if also they somehow didn't recruit any other pedigreed point guards over the past several years. But I'm ecstatic with how he's being used and how he's playing as a reserve this season.

I think Thornton could have started over Greg Paulus. And I think he could have given Wojo a run at the point.

[Starter]

I think Thornton could have started over Greg Paulus. And I think he could have given Wojo a run at the point.

I disagree on both assertions, particularly the latter.

[FerryFor50]

I disagree on both assertions, particularly the latter.

I'm not in love with Thornton by any means, but he's a better defender than Paulus was and equal offensively. Paulus had better court vision, but wasn't always able to deliver.

As for Wojo, I think they are very similar in style and tenacity. What makes you think Wojo was that much better?

[jimsumner]

I disagree on both assertions, particularly the latter.

Maybe Paulus, especially after the injuries started piling up.

Wojo? No, I don't think so. People forget that Wojo averaged in the 5 apg neighborhood the two years he started. Thornton has not consistently demonstrated that play-making ability.

[FerryFor50]

Maybe Paulus, especially after the injuries started piling up.

Wojo? No, I don't think so. People forget that Wojo averaged in the 5 apg neighborhood the two years he started. Thornton has not consistently demonstrated that play-making ability.

Fair enough, but I don't think Wojo was that far ahead overall. Thornton averages 2.7 apg over 21 min per game. Wojo averaged 2.1 apg his junior year when he played the same amount. Plus Thornton turns it over less.

[Starter]

I'm not in love with Thornton by any means, but he's a better defender than Paulus was and equal offensively. Paulus had better court vision, but wasn't always able to deliver.

As for Wojo, I think they are very similar in style and tenacity. What makes you think Wojo was that much better?

Paulus had his shortcomings to be certain, but he scored over 11 points per game in two consecutive seasons, was a more prolific and reliable outside shooter and a better passer. I see literally no way to assert Thornton was near Paulus' level offensively when he scores a third as much. Paulus was absolutely limited defensively, but it's not like Thornton is John Havlicek in comparison. In terms of leadership and intangibles, they were probably pretty close.

I think Wojo was better because he was better. He had better handle, was a better passer and played markedly better defense. Whether you think he deserved either award, he won National Defensive Player of the Year and was honorable mention for All-America.

There are a lot of things to like about Thornton's game, but I mean, come on.

[Starter]

Maybe Paulus, especially after the injuries started piling up.

Wojo? No, I don't think so. People forget that Wojo averaged in the 5 apg neighborhood the two years he started. Thornton has not consistently demonstrated that play-making ability.

True, Paulus couldn't really compete by his senior year. But in order to start, Thornton still would have had to prove himself preferable to Nolan Smith at the beginning of the year or Eliot Williams at the end. (Sorry we got so off the beaten path here, by the way.)

[jimsumner]

Fair enough, but I don't think Wojo was that far ahead overall. Thornton averages 2.7 apg over 21 min per game. Wojo averaged 2.1 apg his junior year when he played the same amount. Plus Thornton turns it over less.

Wojo averaged 5.3 apg as a junior.

As a sophomore, Thornton played 717 minutes. He had 69 assists and 34 turnovers.

As a sophomore, Wojo played 675 minutes and had 84 assists and 38 turnovers. That's in 31 games, so it averages out to 2.7 apg.

As a freshman, Thornton played 337 minutes and had 33 assists and 22 turnovers.

As a freshman, Wojo played 540 minutes. He had 81 assists and 42 turnovers. That's in 28 games, an average of 2.9 apg.

Wojo averaged 4.6 apg as a senior. So, he never had a season in which he averaged 2.1 apg.

For his career, Wojo had 505 assists and 202 turnovers, an a/to ratio of about 2.5:1

Through yesterday, Thornton has 140 assists and 75 turnovers, an a/to ratio of about 1.9:1.

So, I would maintain that Wojo was a better playmaker than Thornton.

[uh_no]

Paulus had his shortcomings to be certain, but he scored over 11 points per game in two consecutive seasons, was a more prolific and reliable outside shooter and a better passer. I see literally no way to assert Thornton was near Paulus' level offensively when he scores a third as much. Paulus was absolutely limited defensively, but it's not like Thornton is John Havlicek in comparison. In terms of leadership and intangibles, they were probably pretty close.

I think Wojo was better because he was better. He had better handle, was a better passer and played markedly better defense. Whether you think he deserved either award, he won National Defensive Player of the Year and was honorable mention for All-America.

There are a lot of things to like about Thornton's game, but I mean, come on.

Greg Paulus also didn't have as much offensive firepower around him as tyler would today....at least while he was still starting....and before you mention JJ, he averaged 7 points a game in the one year he played with JJ.

[FerryFor50]

Wojo averaged 5.3 apg as a junior.

As a sophomore, Thornton played 717 minutes. He had 69 assists and 34 turnovers.

As a sophomore, Wojo played 675 minutes and had 84 assists and 38 turnovers. That's in 31 games, so it averages out to 2.7 apg.

As a freshman, Thornton played 337 minutes and had 33 assists and 22 turnovers.

As a freshman, Wojo played 540 minutes. He had 81 assists and 42 turnovers. That's in 28 games, an average of 2.9 apg.

Wojo averaged 4.6 apg as a senior. So, he never had a season in which he averaged 2.1 apg.

For his career, Wojo had 505 assists and 202 turnovers, an a/to ratio of about 2.5:1

Through yesterday, Thornton has 140 assists and 75 turnovers, an a/to ratio of about 1.9:1.

So, I would maintain that Wojo was a better playmaker than Thornton.


My overall point was that Thornton is not that far off from Wojo. The stats seem to back that up.

[jimsumner]

My overall point was that Thornton is not that far off from Wojo. The stats seem to back that up.

I believe the point under discussion is whether Thornton would have started over Wojo. I'm glad you agree that he likely would not.

[FerryFor50]

I believe the point under discussion is whether Thornton would have started over Wojo. I'm glad you agree that he likely would not.

I said he would have given him a run for the job, but never said he'd start outright.

[Kedsy]

Greg Paulus also didn't have as much offensive firepower around him as tyler would today....at least while he was still starting....and before you mention JJ, he averaged 7 points a game in the one year he played with JJ.

Greg also had 5.2 assists per game that year, and 1.6 steals per game and (IIRC) was on the ACC All-Freshman team. Yes, Tyler is a better defender than Greg Paulus was, but personally I think it's kind of silly to say he's a better ballplayer than either Paulus or Wojo.

Tyler has his limitations. Why can't we just be happy that he's good enough to earn 20+ mpg on a #1 team? Isn't that good enough without raising all these questionable comparisons?

[Saratoga2]

Aside from the points already made on this thread...

-It seems like Cook and Rasheed are developing a real defensive chemistry. They always seem to pump each other up after big defensive plays, and I think they are getting much better and that first line of defense is a big improvement over last year. I know it's easy to focus on player's offensive performance, or lack of one, but both of these guys are working so hard on defense that maybe it's like when a toddler is learning to walk and talk, when they progress in one area the other lies dormant for a while. That being said, Sheed still has 1-2 big drives a game, and Cook is getting in the lane. Maybe he should watch some (dare I say it) Ty Lawson tape for effective ways to finish 5 feet and in. He actually reminds me most of Baylor's PG Tweety Carter that we faced in the Elite Eight in 2010.

-This will be an interesting phase for our team offensively because teams are clearly game planning around Mason, something that wasn't happening earlier in the year. Our starting 5 has the potential to be a "pick your poison" group. Clearly Curry can fill it up, and Kelly, as he brilliantly showed yesterday, can really take advantage of single coverage whether off the bounce or losing his man and spotting up. If Mason can continue to show patience, pass out of those doubles, and help get the other guys off, then he'll get his. As a team, and I put a chunk of this on Quinn - we can't forget about Mason, and especially need to look for him as he repeatedly sprints down the court in transition.

-I liked MP3s energy level yesterday. He's still kind of in "chicken with head cut off" mode, but he covers a lot of ground. That being said, Hairston drew at least 3 charges which were high impact plays.

-Classic K on developing depth, from the post game presser:
“The development of our starters is much more important than the development of our depth. The development of every player is important. We are dealing in an injured player in Seth [Curry]. I know because he’s playing you think everything is good, but he’s not. He’s had gutty performances. Ryan [Kelly] was hurt during the holidays. He tweaked his foot. They have to be ready to go. And also for your future. Those three kids – Amile, Alex and Marshall – are really good players. They’re playing behind three seniors. It’s a different dynamic. There’s more separation than normal. And that’s good. That’s why we’re 14-0. It’s why we’ve won. You have to develop your depth and young guys in a little bit different way with this team.”

-Pre-game, many people said that Wake was terrible. They were right, but mostly because they are so green. They had a TON of unforced turnovers and poor quality fouls.

All of the five starters have established themselves and will stay starters barring injury. Clearly, Tyler is and has been a key sub with a slightly lower offensive capability and PG capability. He also gives a few too many fouls for my liking and with him in the mix, we have a rather short guard corp. Tyler is still a very good and dependable sub and should maintain his position throughout the year.

Probably the biggest question is whether Josh's PT will be challenged. We have Marshall, who will not doubt be our big man of the future. Can he bring more to the table than Josh? Then there is Alex, who is fast, athletic and taller than Josh. My take on Alex is that he has the best offensive capability of the subs. Finally, we have Amile who is also taller than Josh, is a tough kid who is getting stronger as he develops. During crunch time, who gets subbed in may change as the season continues on.

There will be no real easy games playing in the ACC, so the rotation will stay shortened from now on and the subs may find it frustrating that they aren't getting much PT, but that is the way Duke goes. I am sure coach K will give the subs more time if we are up big in games, and that is what will have to satisfy our subs.

[jimsumner]

I said he would have given him a run for the job, but never said he'd start outright.

As I said, the point under discussion is whether Thornton would have started over Wojo. Your latter statement that TT was "not that far off" from Wojo seems to indicate your position on the matter.

Am I misinterpreting? Are you suggesting that Thornton is ahead of Wojo by a "not far off" margin?

Let me note that Steve Wojciechowski has the best career assist-to-turnover ratio in Duke history. Not one of the best. The best. Chris Duhon, Tommy Amaker, Jon Scheyer and Bobby Hurley round out the top five.

Wojo's 3.03:1 a/to ratio in 1997 is the top single-season mark in Duke history. His 1998 season ranks fifth.

Doesn't seem to me like a guy prone to excessive turnovers.

Wojo was second-team All-ACC in 1997, third-team in 1998, when he was good enough to keep William Avery on the bench. Do you see Thornton as a potential All-ACC player? Do you see him as good enough to keep a future 1st-round pick out of the starting lineup?

Please, don't anyone spin this as anti-Tyler Thornton. He's one of my favorite current players. I love his energy, his toughness, his leadership, his willingness-even eagerness-to subsume his ego for the good of the team. I stated earlier in the thread that he should be lumped in with the starters for the purposes of playing-time discussion, not lumped with his fellow reserves.

But Wojo at his best was simply a better all-around player than Thornton at his best and by a clear margin. That may change next season and it would be great for Duke if it does. But that's another discussion, for another day.