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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 90, Santa Clara 77 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
12-29-2012, 02:07 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

CLW
12-29-2012, 02:12 PM
Played fairly well for the final 15 mins and that was enough today. Hopefully, they can shake the rust off and play a complete 40 minutes as we are nearing ACC play now.

sagegrouse
12-29-2012, 02:13 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.


I have no idea what this game means, but I was really impressed with Santa Clara. Looks like a really good, well-coached team.

Anyone have an opinion of why there were so many fouls? Rough game? Picky officials?

Mason Plumlee (says ESPN box score) ended up 10-15 from the line. Did he really make a whole bunch in a row in the second half?

Seth! Seth! Seth! Not eloquent, but I am speechless at his game today.


sagegrouse

DukeBlueHeart4
12-29-2012, 02:14 PM
Tough game! I was not expecting the game to go the way it did.

It hit me again today one of the biggest differences between this year's team and last year's. Our boys were pushed, and pushed hard, by Santa Clara but they pushed back even harder! I feel like last year's team wilted when in simliar situations. It's great to see our team gel in a tough game situation and bounce back with force.

I hope that this game allowed them to shake whatever holiday rust there might have been off. It's almost time for conference play and we have a Davidson team that might surprise us too.

chaosmage
12-29-2012, 02:17 PM
I have no idea what this game means, but I was really impressed with Santa Clara. Looks like a really good, well-coached team.

Anyone have an opinion of why there were so many fouls? Rough game? Picky officials?

Mason Plumlee (says ESPN box score) ended up 10-15 from the line. Did he really make a whole bunch in a row in the second half?

Seth! Seth! Seth! Not eloquent, but I am speechless at his game today.


sagegrouse

He was old Mason in the first half, and they went to the Hack-A-Plumlee style. Then he started making them pay.

moonpie23
12-29-2012, 02:26 PM
Admiral Ackbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA) told me to watch out for this game today......Santa Clara brought the fight.....our team absorbed it and punched them back...


great game (ha...now that it's over)

Newton_14
12-29-2012, 02:29 PM
Holiday rust. We can't expect them to be at the top of their game every single time out. That is just not realistic. The rust from the layoff showed, and if you noticed, it hit the younger players harder than the vets. Seth and Mason carried us while Quinn and Rasheed struggled. Kelly sort of had a sub-par game offensively as well. Combine that with the fact that Santa Clara played at a really high level, and the result was a struggle.

Once Seth took over in the last 10 minutes we sprinted out to the big lead. Credit Santa Clara for not wilting even under that run. We just never got dialed in defensively today. We turned them over in spurts, but on the whole, the team defense was out of sync today. Santa Clara ran a funky offense as well with the double screens out top all day with the bigs.

Mason played well and came close to fouling out there entire frontline. Finished 10-15 from the line as well, and had another strong double double.

I suspect the team will play better Wed against Davidson.

Any news on why Amile sat today?

Saratoga2
12-29-2012, 02:30 PM
Seth was very efficient today and we needed his scoring and points. Mason played hard and well and Kelly also came through. Give Santa Clara a lot of credit. Very solic guard play. Kind of a reminder of last years tournament game.

We aren't going to bury good teams. It is going to be a struggle at times, but today the team showed toughness and wouldn't be denied a win. Our free throw shooting early showed rust (we were 8 for 18 at one point) and we looked a little shaky with the ball for short stretches. With Quinn in the game, the ball handling is much better. He is also makes a big difference this year. Rasheed was off today and was unable to finish around the
basket, but his defense was still strong.

Too bad the game stayed in doubt for so long, since Marshall, Alex and Amile didn't get much PT.

TruBlu
12-29-2012, 02:36 PM
Santa Clara hit a few "circus shots" which really kept them in the game. Our missed free throws (until later in the game) also contributed to a closer than anticipated score.

Is there any word on why Amile didn't get any playing time?

jv001
12-29-2012, 02:40 PM
Holiday rust. We can't expect them to be at the top of their game every single time out. That is just not realistic. The rust from the layoff showed, and if you noticed, it hit the younger players harder than the vets. Seth and Mason carried us while Quinn and Rasheed struggled. Kelly sort of had a sub-par game offensively as well. Combine that with the fact that Santa Clara played at a really high level, and the result was a struggle.

Once Seth took over in the last 10 minutes we sprinted out to the big lead. Credit Santa Clara for not wilting even under that run. We just never got dialed in defensively today. We turned them over in spurts, but on the whole, the team defense was out of sync today. Santa Clara ran a funky offense as well with the double screens out top all day with the bigs.

Mason played well and came close to fouling out there entire frontline. Finished 10-15 from the line as well, and had another strong double double.

I suspect the team will play better Wed against Davidson.

Any news on why Amile sat today?

I agree with the Holiday rust having a big effect on our younger players the most, but Santa Clara was well coached and played hard. Seth and Mason really carried us today. Rasheed made some nice drives to the basket, but didn't finish strong. Quinn had a some shakey moments but Coach K brought him to the bench and when he returned he played much better. Good to see Marshall even if it was just for a few minutes. We'll be better against Davidson. We'll need to be as they seem to always play us tough. GoDuke!

Bob Green
12-29-2012, 02:44 PM
Santa Clara deserves a lot of credit for making Duke look rusty. The West Coast Conference needs to sit up and take notice. Mason started 3 for 6 on free throws; therefore, he finished 7 for 9. I'd like to see him do a better job scoring through contact. He went to the line two or three times today shooting two when he should have been converting an and 1. That's nitpicking though for a guy averaging 19/12.

jv001
12-29-2012, 02:49 PM
Santa Clara deserves a lot of credit for making Duke look rusty. The West Coast Conference needs to sit up and take notice. Mason started 3 for 6 on free throws; therefore, he finished 7 for 9. I'd like to see him do a better job scoring through contact. He went to the line two or three times today shooting two when he should have been converting an and 1. That's nitpicking though for a guy averaging 19/12.

It might be nickpicking, but it's true. Same for Rasheed today. Just didn't finish strong.

Newton_14
12-29-2012, 02:52 PM
Santa Clara deserves a lot of credit for making Duke look rusty. The West Coast Conference needs to sit up and take notice. Mason started 3 for 6 on free throws; therefore, he finished 7 for 9. I'd like to see him do a better job scoring through contact. He went to the line two or three times today shooting two when he should have been converting an and 1. That's nitpicking though for a guy averaging 19/12.

The one nitpick I have with Mason right now ( and he is playing great, 1st Team AA ball) is for some reason he has gone away from using his left hand. Last year he would go to the lefty jumphook when required, with much success. This year he keeps turning to his right and trying to finish righthanded which is asking for it to get blocked.

He needs to go back to that left hand in conference play.

But like you say, today he had 22 points, 13 boards, and 5 assists, so picking nits we are...

Billy Dat
12-29-2012, 03:04 PM
That was an incredible offensive display from Seth Curry. We needed someone to carry us and he did it with a remarkable combination of 3 point shooting and hesitation drives that Santa Clara could not solve. During the first half, the staff must have discerned that Santa Clara was vulnerable to the drive but elected to go with Rasheed as the primary weaponto start the second half. That would have worked great if, as others have pointed out, he could have made a lay-up. How many did he miss? 4 or 5? It ultimately didn't matter because Curry took over. It was certainly an all time kind of offensive performance for him. Fantastic leadership.

Mason was also awesome today. Despite missing a bunch of free throws at one point and showing an inability to finish contested shots around the rim (he got blocked several times), he grabbed huge boards, scored well and, as others have said, drew a lot of fouls. He also threw some really nice passes, and showed some expanded smooth low post pivots that I hadn't seen before. He is playing so well.

Props to Kevin Foster who threatened to bury us in the first half. A big turn of events that won't show up in the box score was K putting Thornton on Foster when he was at his most "en fuego" and Thornton flopped and drew a foul forcing Foster to the bench with about 4 minutes left in the first half. We can argue whether or not it was a flop, but I thought it clearly was and I don't care. Mission accomplished as we got that assasin off the floor. Foster luckily missed some good looks to start the second half and then was largely a non-issue until the final 6 minutes when he got going again but it was too late. That kid is lethal.

I feel like we got some much needed home cooking from the refs during the first 5 minutes of the second half. We were in the bonus with barely 5 minutes gone in the first half and some of those calls were dicey. Santa Clara plays REALLY hard nosed and K was in the refs ear all first half so it's no surprise and I was happy for the help. A huge play was when Atanga flagrant fouled Mason with a forearm to the neck and we began to roll from there. That sequence where Mason stole the rebound, Santa Clara immediately stole it back, and then Curry immediately stole it back, hit Quinn, and then got it back for a wing 3 and an 8 point lead was huge.

Some quick hitters:
-Quinn finished much better then he started. I thought he played well in the second half. I think his floaters are becoming a bad tell for him, as in, when he starts throwing up ill advised floaters, he's playing bad.
-If Sheed hits his lay-ups, he'd have had a better offensive game in that he would have relaxed and hunted his shot more. I think he got skittish and wasn't as aggressive after those many misses.
-Kelly needs to work on what to do to finish his drives. Too often, he gets within 3 feet of the rim and throws up an ugly prayer and falls to the ground. I want to see more kick-outs off those drives and maybe some better setting of his feet for better attempts.
-I, too, was surprised that Amile didn't get in. Maybe K sensed that the senior-laden opponent was too much for the young man. I liked Marshall's cameo. At this rate, he should be seeing 5 minutes of game time by the NCAAs. In all seriousness, though, I don't see us playing he and Mason together and we need Mason on the floor.

Good win, we overcame a lot of rust, a lot of uncharacteristic unforced errors, a lot of missed free throws and lay-ups, and an explosive first half by Foster. Curry's gem of a game is the headline.

bedeviled
12-29-2012, 03:14 PM
During the first half, the staff must have discerned that Santa Clara was vulnerable to the drive but elected to go with Rasheed as the primary weaponto start the second half. That would have worked great if, as others have pointed out, he could have made a lay-up. How many did he miss? 4 or 5?I think Duke was trying to isolate Rasheed at the time because he was being guarded by Foster who couldn't stop him because he couldn't risk a foul. According to SCACCHoops.com (this site posted by riverside6), Rasheed was 2/6 for layups. The team, as a whole, though, was 14/19 for layups and 5/5 for dunks (note these stats don't include when we got blocked).

53n206
12-29-2012, 03:15 PM
Odds in Vegas had us 9 point favorites. Interesting. Also over/under on N C State really close.

tbyers11
12-29-2012, 03:28 PM
Odds in Vegas had us 9 point favorites. Interesting. Also over/under on N C State really close.

Think you were looking at the line for just the second half. The line I saw had Duke by 17. Take away one of their circus shots and add a couple more FTs for us and it was almost spot on.

Newton_14
12-29-2012, 03:59 PM
I think Duke was trying to isolate Rasheed at the time because he was being guarded by Foster who couldn't stop him because he couldn't risk a foul. According to SCACCHoops.com (this site posted by riverside6), Rasheed was 2/6 for layups. The team, as a whole, though, was 14/19 for layups and 5/5 for dunks (note these stats don't include when we got blocked).

You are correct. It was clear at the start of the 2nd half that the plan was to drive on Foster and try to draw fouls. He picked up his 3rd foul 9 seconds into the 2nd half, then we ran the same play two or tnree more times in a row, but Rasheed was struggling to finish.

Billy Dat
12-29-2012, 04:07 PM
I think Duke was trying to isolate Rasheed at the time because he was being guarded by Foster who couldn't stop him because he couldn't risk a foul. According to SCACCHoops.com (this site posted by riverside6), Rasheed was 2/6 for layups. The team, as a whole, though, was 14/19 for layups and 5/5 for dunks (note these stats don't include when we got blocked).

Good call, that was clearly the strategy.

porkpa
12-29-2012, 04:08 PM
You are correct. It was clear at the start of the 2nd half that the plan was to drive on Foster and try to draw fouls. He picked up his 3rd foul 9 seconds into the 2nd half, then we ran the same play two or tnree more times in a row, but Rasheed was struggling to finish.

I thought this might have been our worst effort of the year thus far and we won anyway. The only guy who played well above average was Seth. Mason played at the high level he has displayed all year. Everybody else was at least a touch below.

DukieInBrasil
12-29-2012, 04:35 PM
It's nice that we've got such nice complementary players, ie., on the day of Seth Curry's best offensive game Sulaimon had his worst game as a Blue Devil. Otherwise, that sure was a first 30 minutes to forget, yet the last 10 minutes allowed almost all of the starters to get their numbers in better shape. Kelly with 11 boards! Nice. Mason with another POY type game. Quinn with another solid stat-stuffing game.
Who woulda figured that Santa Clara would hang the most points on Duke of any team we've played this year? I'm guessing Coach K won't be too pleased withe defensive effort of today's game.

dball
12-29-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm guessing Coach K won't be too pleased withe defensive effort of today's game.

In press conference after game, Coach K thought defensive effort was very good and noted Thornton's play in particular. He seemed pleased with team and noted that Santa Clara is very good.

superdave
12-29-2012, 05:07 PM
Holiday rust. We can't expect them to be at the top of their game every single time out. That is just not realistic. The rust from the layoff showed, and if you noticed, it hit the younger players harder than the vets. Seth and Mason carried us while Quinn and Rasheed struggled. Kelly sort of had a sub-par game offensively as well. Combine that with the fact that Santa Clara played at a really high level, and the result was a struggle.

Mason played well and came close to fouling out there entire frontline. Finished 10-15 from the line as well, and had another strong double double.

Any news on why Amile sat today?

We were not just rusty today, but also flat footed. SC was quicker to the ball on many occasions. I thought Amile could have brought us some energy, or even Marshall. But the fight seemed to come from Tyler today until Mason and Seth picked it up. No more let downs or low energy starts. We're getting close to conference play.

To your point on Mason drawing so many fouls, that is a big part of our offense. Teams can play us tough but will likely have 2+ defenders get into foul trouble because of Mason. It really can be a go to weapon for us when shots are not falling. It reduces the likelihood of having a bad game as long as we are disciplined and pursue the post game.

roywhite
12-29-2012, 05:26 PM
Kevin Foster of Santa Clara was positively "Bootsie-esque" today.

In another sign of respect, he got major face time and a couple taps to the chest from K in the hand shake line. You know that an opposing player must just love it when he gets individual praise and attention from the GOAT.*



*GOAT = Greatest Of All Time
probably recognizable to most here, but thought I'd clarify.

matt1
12-29-2012, 05:36 PM
I was at the game, after I had not been since I was very young. It was so much fun to be there and sit (stand) in the Cameron Crazies' seats. Plumlee and Curry carried the team.

CDu
12-29-2012, 05:43 PM
But the fight seemed to come from Tyler today until Mason and Seth picked it up.

I think I'd reword this statement. Mason brought it from the opening tip. He missed some free throws early, but played really well throughout. And Curry was quite effective in the first half (13 points). Those two guys were both terrific for 40 minutes. If it weren't for an amazing performance by Foster in the first half, this might have been a laugher.

The rest of the team? Kind of "meh" until early in the second half, when Curry's explosion woke up the rest of the guys (Cook and Kelly really picked up their offensive play down the stretch).

It was a phenomenal show from Mason and Curry. Mason is continuing to make his case for National Player of the Year. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists. Unbelievable. And Curry was just lethal. The two of them combined for 53 points on 28 shots!

Kelly had a quiet game offensively, but he was very active on the boards. 11 rebounds (5 offensive) to go with 10 points.

Sulaimon had some terrific drives, but he just couldn't seem to finish. He very easily could have had 10-12 points, but gave them away at the rim. Still, I wasn't too disappointed with his game. Those shots will fall next time.

I don't think Cook handled Santa Clara's intensity early. But as the second half wore on, he finally bounced back. On an off-night, he still managed 12 points, 5 assists, and 5 rebounds.

I think we saw today what we'll likely see a lot of the rest of the way in terms of the rotation. Hairston and Thornton will be the primary reserves off the bench. Maybe one of Marshall, Jefferson, or Murphy will see a few minutes. But Coach K is going to ride his starting five as long as they can go. I'd be surprised if any of those three guys plays more than 5 mpg in meaningful games.

Wander
12-29-2012, 06:56 PM
Santa Clara is not terrible. They're certainly better than Wake Forest or Boston College. Think of it this way: how would we be reacting with a 13 point win over a middle-of-the-pack ACC team?

Side note, sort of annoying to hear the ESPN guys continuously and inaccurately refer to Curry's game as a "career high."

dcar1985
12-29-2012, 07:09 PM
Really would like to see Amile and or/ Alex getting Josh's minutes...It's painful watching him out there. Hard to think he was a top 30 recruit coming out of HS.

cptnflash
12-29-2012, 07:28 PM
Really would like to see Amile and or/ Alex getting Josh's minutes...It's painful watching him out there. Hard to think he was a top 30 recruit coming out of HS.

Agree wholeheartedly. I love Josh to death, but I cringe every time he gets the ball.

On a more positive note, the thing I love most about Seth is that almost all of his field goal attemps are either 3-pointers or right at the rim. He will only take a mid-range 2-pointer (the least efficient way to score) if he's wide open or in a late shot clock situation. And for someone who is perceived to be a less-than-athletic catch-and-shoot player, he also manages to get to the line a fair amount. Reminds me a bit of Jon Scheyer in that regard. Mad props to Seth - keep that leg healthy!

CDu
12-29-2012, 07:58 PM
Santa Clara is not terrible. They're certainly better than Wake Forest or Boston College. Think of it this way: how would we be reacting with a 13 point win over a middle-of-the-pack ACC team?

I pretty much agree. Santa Clara is, according to Pomeroy, ahead of the following major conference teams: West Virginia, WSU, Villanova, South Florida, St John's, LSU, Washington, Va Tech, Georgia, ASU, Vanderbilt, USC (both of them), BC, Wake, Auburn, Nebraska, and Texas Tech. That list only includes 3 ACC teams, but they are just behind FSU and Clemson. A 13 point win over Clemson or FSU wouldn't raise any eyebrows.


Side note, sort of annoying to hear the ESPN guys continuously and inaccurately refer to Curry's game as a "career high."

Yeah, I've never understood this. They have been doing it since he first started playing for Duke. They should at least say "Duke career high". But it's like they don't even realize he was prolific at Liberty.


Really would like to see Amile and or/ Alex getting Josh's minutes...It's painful watching him out there. Hard to think he was a top 30 recruit coming out of HS.

I don't think you're likely to get your wish on this. Coach K pretty clearly feels more comfortable using Hairston as the primary backup at PF and C. Marshall may end up taking away the backup C minutes, but it'd be a bit of a surprise to see Jefferson or Murphy overtake Hairston at PF. Coach K seems to trust Hairston.

dcar1985
12-29-2012, 08:40 PM
I pretty much agree. Santa Clara is, according to Pomeroy, ahead of the following major conference teams: West Virginia, WSU, Villanova, South Florida, St John's, LSU, Washington, Va Tech, Georgia, ASU, Vanderbilt, USC (both of them), BC, Wake, Auburn, Nebraska, and Texas Tech. That list only includes 3 ACC teams, but they are just behind FSU and Clemson. A 13 point win over Clemson or FSU wouldn't raise any eyebrows.



Yeah, I've never understood this. They have been doing it since he first started playing for Duke. They should at least say "Duke career high". But it's like they don't even realize he was prolific at Liberty.



I don't think you're likely to get your wish on this. Coach K pretty clearly feels more comfortable using Hairston as the primary backup at PF and C. Marshall may end up taking away the backup C minutes, but it'd be a bit of a surprise to see Jefferson or Murphy overtake Hairston at PF. Coach K seems to trust Hairston.


I don't either...It wouldn't be a surprise though, Josh really doesn't bring much to the table outside of outweighing Amile right now. But honestly give the minutes to anybody at this point, Josh seems to be a good kid and has good energy but he's just not very good.

Starter
12-29-2012, 09:26 PM
Please note this isn't a criticism of how Krzyzewski is deploying his bench or anything. I think he's doing a pretty good job with what he's got. But I'm a bit concerned about the fact this team has absolutely zero bench scoring. I mean, zero. I think Thornton and even Hairston are good in the roles they're in. They just provide very, very little of a scoring threat. Duke is 313th in the country in bench minute percentage, so that tells you about Krzyzewski's faith in his other options besides his two juniors. It's ostensibly the starters or bust. And those guys have been fantastic. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced either Jefferson or Murphy have shown enough to log legitimate time. (Though I've been impressed with Jefferson and look forward to a solid Duke career.) It's just, I worry about the potential sustainability of this. If you ride the starters until the wheels come off, well, what happens if they come off?

Another argument I absolutely don't care to rehash on this board is the eternal "minutes argument" a la J.J. Redick. But I have reservations about, say, Curry playing eight games in 26 days in February with most likely around 35 mpg on a perpetually screwy leg. Or Cook doing that on a surgically repaired knee. Last year, Ryan Kelly -- the fourth option, right? -- went down and the whole team fell apart. There's just not that much margin for error. Duke is playing at a high level, and they're probably going to be just fine. But I would have loved for at least one other player to step up off the bench at some point to add to the 7-man rotation Duke does have. Like, it would have been ideal for Murphy to actually have been able to take the starting position some expected him to have, in order to have Sulaimon's punch off the bench as a freshman. (Not that Sulaimon doesn't deserve to start, but it'd have balanced things out a bit more.)

I think this Duke team is really good, and there are few teams, if any, that can match their balance of talent, experience and strategy. And Plumlee's as good as it gets for a college big man, pretty much. It's just that my nature is to always look ahead, and I'm a bit concerned a wafer-thin rotation is a potential problem.

That said, since 2007, they've had two years with a lower percentage of bench minutes. And one was 2009-10. So, you know, maybe just see how it plays out. :cool:

azzefkram
12-29-2012, 09:29 PM
I don't think you're likely to get your wish on this. Coach K pretty clearly feels more comfortable using Hairston as the primary backup at PF and C. Marshall may end up taking away the backup C minutes, but it'd be a bit of a surprise to see Jefferson or Murphy overtake Hairston at PF. Coach K seems to trust Hairston.

Ugh... I'd hate it for you to be right on this CDu, but the pit in my stomach tells me you are. I can't imagine Coach K loves the long 2s that Josh is so fond of however.

moonpie23
12-29-2012, 09:48 PM
man, i'm not trying to hack on you guys, but DANG.....every time y'all go into this discussion about how the bench is played and individual minutes and shoulda, woulda, coulda it drives me nuts.......


i really think that K and the staff know who should be on the floor, when and why...

Starter
12-29-2012, 10:01 PM
man, i'm not trying to hack on you guys, but DANG.....every time y'all go into this discussion about how the bench is played and individual minutes and shoulda, woulda, coulda it drives me nuts.......


i really think that K and the staff know who should be on the floor, when and why...

For the record, at least for my part, I wasn't questioning how he's using his players. I think what he's doing makes perfect sense. (This isn't to say I wouldn't, and haven't, questioned certain moves Krzyzewski has made -- he's the best coach, but still a human being -- but I think his handling of this team this season has been masterful.) I was just discussing how uneasy I feel that this team has very few minutes coming off its bench and virtually no scoring potential.

subzero02
12-29-2012, 10:11 PM
I want to see Jefferson get more consistent playing time... Or have any of our bench players develop into a reliable scorer... Btw, it was very nice to see Mason begin to hit some foul shots in the second half

gep
12-29-2012, 10:16 PM
That said, since 2007, they've had two years with a lower percentage of bench minutes. And one was 2009-10. So, you know, maybe just see how it plays out. :cool:

As I was reading your post, I thought I'd look at the 09-10 team... but you did... and we know how that turned out.... :cool: And, that team also had 3 seniors. But of course, they had Nolan and Kyle. But this year's team has Quin and Rasheed... not quite the "replacement", but not bad.

arnie
12-30-2012, 08:43 AM
For the record, at least for my part, I wasn't questioning how he's using his players. I think what he's doing makes perfect sense. (This isn't to say I wouldn't, and haven't, questioned certain moves Krzyzewski has made -- he's the best coach, but still a human being -- but I think his handling of this team this season has been masterful.) I was just discussing how uneasy I feel that this team has very few minutes coming off its bench and virtually no scoring potential.

We have to assume that neither Jefferson/Murphy have shown the skill set or capability of Josh Hairston in practice. That is a concern.

Saratoga2
12-30-2012, 09:05 AM
One question I had coming into this game is whether the seniors would come out with fire in their belly and play hard from the getgo. They haven't always in the past but tonight Mason started and finished the game with a lot of energy against a tough and physical team. I also thought Ryan did the same and he got a lot of rebounds for him and played hard and tough the entire game. Seth has been hurting, but tonight his offense was oh so solid. His lateral movement isn't all that quick but we would have lost the game without his fantastic offensive performance.

Another question is how do we deal with teams with two excellent guards? Coach K said in his comments that we are small at guard and that makes it difficult for us to deny teams with such high quality guards as these. Kind of a familiar story. Quinn is much better this year and Thornton is solid but tends to foul too often. Obviously, coach K feels neither Alex or Amile with their size and athleticism are experienced enough to supplant our smaller guards. Will that bite us in the tournament?

Another obvious question is what do we do if Seth is unable to play at a high level due to his injury? We have seen him have a couple of those games this year and with a long tough schedule, there are likely to be more times along the way. I would expect Rasheed to pick up some of the scoring and maybe Ryan can supply some, but without Seth, teams can concentrate on Mason and make it hard for us to score. Will we get something from the bench along the way? LOve to see that!

Not to take away from the game last night. We beat a solid and mature team that played us physically and we hot shooting the ball. Good win for us and we came away without injuries. Great game tonight and great season to date.




[/SUP]

bedeviled
12-30-2012, 09:34 AM
...I wasn't questioning how he's using his players. I think what he's doing makes perfect sense. (This isn't to say I wouldn't, and haven't, questioned certain moves Krzyzewski has made.... Haha, it's a little difficult in your two posts to reconcile how you aren't questioning/criticizing with your questions/criticism. ;) Yet, I feel similarly: I think the bench is being utilized appropriately while I also lament that we don't have a more developed bench.

Here's how I rationalize it:
Frankly, I'm actually surprised that our bench has gotten so much play in Phase II, in terms of both minutes and numbers. In the way I view the progression, Phase I dynamics are primarily about building a team. Phase II is about establishing that team's identity. And, an important characteristic that spans the two phases is development of the team's leadership. Duke met my Phase I goals (team-building) superbly. But, I think we still lack (relatively) the identity and leadership that we could have established by this point. I think we still need to work on these goals. Thus, I am not surprised by the short bench although I, too, wonder what the (relative) lack of bench development will mean in the long run. But, of course, bench development isn't all that helpful if they are subbing into an (relatively) unclear system. The good news is: it will all become apparent later, so we will get to complain/commend at the end of the season as if there were a clear answer all along! **Thanks for putting up with the "relative" disclaimers. We are clearly a good team, and I didn't want to discount that by looking at "flaws."

Hmm, another post that I wanted to comment on might fit well enough to be included with this one.

I think I'd reword this statement. Mason brought it from the opening tip.I agree with superdave (ie the fight came from Tyler, and other people, including Mason, then followed suit). The way I remember it (my computer hates the goduke website, so I can't go back to verify), our offense was fine from the beginning. Our defense, though, was not. That includes Mason who I recall as being somewhat lackadaisical (at least, not intense) getting on defense and into positions. The defensive intensity changed when Tyler came in, and this changed the intensity of other players and the game at large. I don't think this was the first time this season that this has happened.

DukieInBrasil
12-30-2012, 09:39 AM
Another obvious question is what do we do if Seth is unable to play at a high level due to his injury? We have seen him have a couple of those games this year and with a long tough schedule, there are likely to be more times along the way. I would expect Rasheed to pick up some of the scoring and maybe Ryan can supply some, but without Seth, teams can concentrate on Mason and make it hard for us to score. Will we get something from the bench along the way? LOve to see that!

Not to take away from the game last night. We beat a solid and mature team that played us physically and we hot shooting the ball. Good win for us and we came away without injuries. Great game tonight and great season to date.
[/SUP]

3 of the 4 games in which Seth has put up lackluster numbers (and by this i mean shooting <39% from the floor) have come in games the day after a previous game. IOW, days with no rest between games. In the Bahamas, Seth put up 14 and 15 pts in the 2nd and 3rd games in a row, but shot 33 and then 27% in those games, following a very solid 1st game there, 25 pts on 8-11 shooting. In the Elon game, the day following the Cornell game, he scored 8 pts on 3-10 shooting. The only truly poor game he's had on something resembling normal rest was vs. OSU, where he scored just 4 pts on 1-6 shooting, and that was with 3 days rest after the 3 games in a row in the Bahamas, so he may still have been recovering from that. If you remove those 4 games (10-36 FG) Seth is shooting a remarkable 59.5% from the floor, and perhaps an even more remarkable 51% from 3, in the games this year where he would have a normal amount of rest after a normal slate of games. If Seth can keep producing at that level during the ACC slate, then we should have nothing to worry about til the ACCT comes, and even then K may have figured out a way to manage Seth's situation so that the team is not negatively affected.

Starter
12-30-2012, 10:46 AM
Haha, it's a little difficult in your two posts to reconcile how you aren't questioning/criticizing with your questions/criticism. ;) Yet, I feel similarly: I think the bench is being utilized appropriately while I also lament that we don't have a more developed bench.


Haha, maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I really meant that I've questioned certain decisions in the past, but have found pretty much nothing to take issue with this season except his starting point guard to begin the season. And that has been shown to be minor in the grand scheme, plus as some have pointed out, there was perhaps a method to his madness.

Bedeviled and I are pretty much on the same page. I'd have liked to see, say, Jefferson playing more. But though he's shown promise, it's not like he's set the world on fire or anything. At least not enough to play over a serviceable junior who K likes and trusts. No quibble here.

I think DukieinBrasil has a nice post regarding the Curry situation. Basically, March is when it becomes more of a concern. By then, maybe things will have ironed themselves out a bit. Or maybe Curry's leg will have improved. He's not practicing. Basically, wear and tear is restricted to games, and he only had 5 last month. Shin injuries are tricky, but can be managed. (I've had my share.)

Bob Green
12-30-2012, 11:08 AM
Really would like to see Amile and or/ Alex getting Josh's minutes...

While I tend to agree with you, Coach K is a guy who values experience and defense. It would appear he trusts Josh Hairston's ability to execute the game plan. I'm convinced Amile Jefferson is going to be a star at Duke because he has demonstrated smooth moves with the ball. I like the way he makes quick moves toward the basket. Once Jefferson increases his strength and gains more experience, his minutes will increase.

Class of '94
12-30-2012, 11:17 AM
3 of the 4 games in which Seth has put up lackluster numbers (and by this i mean shooting <39% from the floor) have come in games the day after a previous game. IOW, days with no rest between games. In the Bahamas, Seth put up 14 and 15 pts in the 2nd and 3rd games in a row, but shot 33 and then 27% in those games, following a very solid 1st game there, 25 pts on 8-11 shooting. In the Elon game, the day following the Cornell game, he scored 8 pts on 3-10 shooting. The only truly poor game he's had on something resembling normal rest was vs. OSU, where he scored just 4 pts on 1-6 shooting, and that was with 3 days rest after the 3 games in a row in the Bahamas, so he may still have been recovering from that. If you remove those 4 games (10-36 FG) Seth is shooting a remarkable 59.5% from the floor, and perhaps an even more remarkable 51% from 3, in the games this year where he would have a normal amount of rest after a normal slate of games. If Seth can keep producing at that level during the ACC slate, then we should have nothing to worry about til the ACCT comes, and even then K may have figured out a way to manage Seth's situation so that the team is not negatively affected.

With the way the games are spread out from now until the ACCT, I think Seth will be fine (assuming there is no unusual flare-ups). And unless Seth's shin condition improves by March, I can see his numbers go down after the first game of the ACCT and Seth may not recover until after the first weekend of the NCAAT due to the back-to-back games of the ACCT and the toll it will put on Seth. I think the key will be if other guys like Rasheed and Tyler can continue to step-up when Seth isn't playing well (most likely due to his leg condition). If Duke can win the ACCT, I think they'd be fine w/o Seth putting up big numbers (if other guys continue to step-up when Seth is not playing well) in the first weekend of the NCAAT (assuming we have a very high seed like a 1 or 2 seed). And by the second weekend (and hopefully subsequent weekends) of NCAAT, I think Seth would be good to go (at least for the first game); and then we have to hope that a day of rest will be enough time to allow him to recover and be effective for the second game.

Olympic Fan
12-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Early in this thread, a poster asked about the high foul totals ... and (as always) there is the debate about how Duke uses its bench.

Let me give you my take -- after watching the game from a very close vantage point.

There is (and has been) a belief out there that the way to play Duke is to get physical with them. I think Santa Clara took that idea to heart. They are a big (not tall, but wide) team with a lot of older players and they used their muscle. I thought it was telling that after the game, their coach was asked about Mason and he said "we made him earn his points at the foul line". But they not only hammered the drivers, they were physical on the perimeter. I think that bothered Quinn early ... it seemed to bother Rasheed a lot.

A lot of fouls were called ... but a lot that could have been called were not -- and not just SC fouling Duke. One of the reasons Foster was so effective in the first half was how well he played through contact. He's built like a 6-1 tank and he used his size and strength on both sides of the ball (until he picked up his third foul early in the second half -- when he backed off a bit on both sides of the ball ... he later resumed his bullish ways on the offensive end, but never tried to throw his weight around defensively the rest of the way).

I love Rasheed, but I thought this was his worst game at Duke. He didn't finish on offense. On Duke's first possession, he made a strong move to the basket, but blew the layup. That set the tone. He missed shots from the foul line. He missed his two 3-point tries (and after the second, he failed to try any more -- passing up some good attempts). He struggled defensively on Foster -- who used his physicality against him.

I thought it telling that Duke's three seniors -- and junior Tyler Thornton -- were the ones who best handled the physicality. I was encouraged that Quinn finished strong after a poor start. He's learning.

I think the nature of the game -- not that it was close, but that it was so physical -- is why K didn't give Amile and Alex a chance. Amile, especially, is not ready for a game of that nature.

I thought it was a good learning experience. Clemson is going to play the same kind of physical defense. We'll see some of it from Virginia and Georgia Tech and maybe others.

I'm confident that Rasheed will figure out how to handle it.

All in all, a good learning experience.

NSDukeFan
12-30-2012, 12:56 PM
While I tend to agree with you, Coach K is a guy who values experience and defense. It would appear he trusts Josh Hairston's ability to execute the game plan. I'm convinced Amile Jefferson is going to be a star at Duke because he has demonstrated smooth moves with the ball. I like the way he makes quick moves toward the basket. Once Jefferson increases his strength and gains more experience, his minutes will increase.

A theory I have, in addition to the physical nature of the game as Olympic Fan indicated, is that Josh, though not as much as Ryan and Mason, really gets it this year when it comes to hedging on screens and overall defensive positioning. My impression is that is one of the greatest areas of improvement compared to last year's squad. Mason and Ryan seem almost LanceZoubekesque in their hedging and recovering without fouling. My impression is that Josh might be doing a slightly better job than our freshmen in this area and team defense.

Edouble
12-30-2012, 03:19 PM
I am a little shocked that Amile didn't play. I think we will be able to use him once the conference season rolls around.

Speaking of roll... I think we're rolling the dice with Seth. He certainly scored a lot of points today, but several of his drives were uncontested once he got past his defender. The Santa Clara defense didn't collapse and he ran free and clear through the paint.

As another poster pointed out, Seth's game goes down a notch when he's not rested. He's not going to have a lot of rest when we're competing for championships in March. If we're seeing an ineffective Seth in March, one that can't catch passes, handle the ball well, utilize good shot selection with 48 hours rest, is that really the time of year to be making on the fly adjustments? I still don't understand the exact nature of this leg injury. He seems fine sometimes and like a different player at other times. Oh well...

Mason is turning out to be the best basketball weapon in the country. I counted assists on 3 of 4 offensive possessions late in the second half.

uh_no
12-30-2012, 03:27 PM
I am a little shocked that Amile didn't play. I think we will be able to use him once the conference season rolls around.

Speaking of roll... I think we're rolling the dice with Seth. He certainly scored a lot of points today, but several of his drives were uncontested once he got past his defender. The Santa Clara defense didn't collapse and he ran free and clear through the paint.

As another poster pointed out, Seth's game goes down a notch when he's not rested. He's not going to have a lot of rest when we're competing for championships in March. If we're seeing an ineffective Seth in March, one that can't catch passes, handle the ball well, utilize good shot selection with 48 hours rest, is that really the time of year to be making on the fly adjustments? I still don't understand the exact nature of this leg injury. He seems fine sometimes and like a different player at other times. Oh well...

Mason is turning out to be the best basketball weapon in the country. I counted assists on 3 of 4 offensive possessions late in the second half.

When the defenses collapses we have a few guys by the name of ryan kelly, quinn cook, and King Sulu (whose name I am unworthy of spelling correctly). They make jump shots every once in a while :)

Edouble
12-30-2012, 04:28 PM
When the defenses collapses we have a few guys by the name of ryan kelly, quinn cook, and King Sulu (whose name I am unworthy of spelling correctly). They make jump shots every once in a while :)

I love our jump shooters, but Seth has 10 assists on the year... 10.

uh_no
12-30-2012, 04:34 PM
I love our jump shooters, but Seth has 10 assists on the year... 10.

to be fair, a lot of times the kick out is then passed to the second guy to take the shot

not that your point isn't valid....but i'd imagine seth won't be the one driving if the defense is collapsing anyway.

gumbomoop
12-30-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm a bit late to this postgame thread. Seems there are 2 dominant themes in it: (1) short bench, and (2) Seth's productivity on too little rest.

(1)
I think we saw today what we'll likely see a lot of the rest of the way in terms of the rotation. Hairston and Thornton will be the primary reserves off the bench. Maybe one of Marshall, Jefferson, or Murphy will see a few minutes. But Coach K is going to ride his starting five as long as they can go. I'd be surprised if any of those three guys plays more than 5 mpg in meaningful games.

I'll be surprised if any of Marshall, Jefferson, Murphy gets more than 2 minutes in any meaningful game that remains close. Only exception would be if maybe Mason had foul trouble and Josh simply wasn't up to task, and K decided to play Marshall more minutes. So I agree with CDu that K is going to go with the starters plus Thornton, and Josh somewhat. We might see a 6 and 1/2 man rotation much of rest of season, in close games. I don't personally approve of this, but I have to admit K is amazingly lucky with his decisions. Also, it does sometimes seem that to K a close game is one in which Duke is leading by only 15 points with less than 1:30 to go.....

(2)
3 of the 4 games in which Seth has put up lackluster numbers (and by this i mean shooting <39% from the floor) have come in games the day after a previous game. IOW, days with no rest between games.... If Seth can keep producing at that ["rested"] level during the ACC slate, then we should have nothing to worry about [B]til the ACCT comes, and even then K may have figured out a way to manage Seth's situation so that the team is not negatively affected.


With the way the games are spread out from now until the ACCT, I think Seth will be fine (assuming there is no unusual flare-ups). And unless Seth's shin condition improves by March, I can see his numbers go down after the first game of the ACCT and Seth may not recover until after the first weekend of the NCAAT due to the back-to-back games of the ACCT and the toll it will put on Seth.... And by the second weekend (and hopefully subsequent weekends) of NCAAT, I think Seth would be good to go (at least for the first game); and then we have to hope that a day of rest will be enough time to allow him to recover and be effective for the second game.

Thanks to DIB for research on Seth's productivity. IMO, DIB nicely presents an appropriately optimistic scenario for Seth's productivity during the regular season [assuming, with Co'94, no flare-ups]. Co'94 reiterates DIB's scenario, and then picks up the post-season problem, when there's insufficient rest in the ACCT, and maybe not quite enough thereafter.

I like the precision of Co'94's post-season scenario-izing, especially the distinction between the first and second weekends of the NCAAT. It does seem plausible that, if Duke plays on Sunday of ACCT, and Seth plays some in that game, that he might not be fully recovered by first weekend of NCAAT, but that thereafter he might have enough recovery time.

All of which will incline me - assuming Seth's recovery-time remains an ongoing issue - to hope that Duke gets a Fri-Sun pod/bracket each of the first 2 NCAAT weekends.

Or, preferably, a Thurs/Sat pod the first weekend, but with a bye for the Thurs game. I see no reason K couldn't arrange this; shouldn't be a big deal, as 16 seeds never, and 15 seeds rarely, win that first game. And then a special Thurs-Sun regional deal the second weekend. Again, if anyone can get such a deal, it's K. After all, he arranged for WVa to beat UK back in '10.

Furniture
12-30-2012, 07:55 PM
I Just watched the game because I was out of town yesterday. I thought that Mason was a beast in this game. He really looked disgusted that the SC team was even close to us. Seth was sublime but Mason was my man of the match. A scorer, a rebounder and a leader who leads by example.

elvis14
12-30-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm always happy to get a win. I've noticed a trend that goes along with the discussion of teams trying to play a very physical style against us. Teams are being physical and using up their fouls to stay in the game. As the game goes on, they simply run out of fouls and put is in the double bonus and can no longer stay with us on the scoreboard. It's not home cooking by the refs (as one poster suggested) it's by design and the hope is that they can hang in then hit some shots late to steal a win. So far it hasn't worked to help any teams to victory but it has enabled a few teams to stay within striking for longer than expected. This was true yesterday in part because we didn't hit our free throws early.

Other thoughts about yesterdays game: Seth was fantastic (JJesque <-- technical term) Mason was a beast, I want to see more Marshall...he's got "future beast" written all over him, would like to see Amile/Alex/MP3 get Josh's minutes now so they'll be more ready later. I think QC and RS will benefit greatly from their struggles yesterday. I was impressed with Santa Clara they are going to give some teams fits this year.

Furniture
12-30-2012, 11:55 PM
I would agree that even with those few minutes playing time it looks like Marshall will be a beast just like his brother!

CDu
12-31-2012, 10:55 AM
I would agree that even with those few minutes playing time it looks like Marshall will be a beast just like his brother!

While I certainly hope that he does so in the future, I don't think we've seen much of anything from Marshall to discern how good or bad he'll be. The only thing I can say about Marshall is that he's tall and he's energetic. But he's done very little on the court to suggest anything about his actual college basketball skills.

That doesn't mean he isn't good. Just that he needs to do more than catch a loose ball that fell into his lap or get a fingertip a shot from a guard before I label him a future beast.

oldnavy
12-31-2012, 11:05 AM
While I certainly hope that he does so in the future, I don't think we've seen much of anything from Marshall to discern how good or bad he'll be. The only thing I can say about Marshall is that he's tall and he's energetic. But he's done very little on the court to suggest anything about his actual college basketball skills.

That doesn't mean he isn't good. Just that he needs to do more than catch a loose ball that fell into his lap or get a fingertip a shot from a guard before I label him a future beast.

Wow, Debbie Downer!! What kind of logic is that for this board???

Just Kidding of course.

I think we all agree that we have 'high hopes' for MP3. He is very likable from his DBP video's and seems like a fun kid.

I think we can gleam a little optimism from K saying that he would be the 6th man before his injury...

K did say that right? I seem to have seen it on the board somewhere... anyway let's hope he is as good as we suspect that he can be!

Bob Green
12-31-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't think we've seen much of anything from Marshall to discern how good or bad he'll be.

Agreed. Even as talented of talent evaluators as us DBR stalwarts are, three minutes isn't a lot of observation time. :cool:

CDu
12-31-2012, 11:15 AM
I think we can gleam a little optimism from K saying that he would be the 6th man before his injury...

K did say that right? I seem to have seen it on the board somewhere... anyway let's hope he is as good as we suspect that he can be!

I believe he did say that (although I've never actually seen it other than on this board, so who knows?). Of course, he also said that Murphy was going to be the starting SF and be a significant contributor. So I'm not sure we can take too much out of Coach K's comments. After all, he almost never "talks down" his players.

I'm hoping Marshall steps up and is able to provide a very solid 4-6 mpg backing up Mason. I don't think we'll see more than that because I don't think Coach K is going to want Mason off the floor very long, and I don't see the two playing together. But right now, I'm taking Coach K's comments as merely coachspeak in support of his players rather than actual evidence that Marshall is going to be a beast for us.

OldPhiKap
12-31-2012, 11:26 AM
Agreed. Even as talented of talent evaluators as us DBR stalwarts are, three minutes isn't a lot of observation time. :cool:

Hell, I knew that Marty Pocius should be starting before I ever saw him.

brianl
01-02-2013, 12:55 PM
Took a friend of mine to Cameron Saturday for the Santa Clara game. On the way out, we were able to meet several of the players (Cook, Hairston, Sulaimon, Thornton, Jefferson, Zafirovski, and Curry) as they were exiting. As always , the guys were friendly and I was appreciative that they stopped and took a few minutes. One thing that I haven't been able to shake is my observation that Amile Jefferson just seemed a little down. I'm not saying that he wasn't polite or anything like that, he just appeared down. This has bothered me since.
While I thanked him for his time and said I appreciated the opportunity to meet him, in retrospect I wished that I had offered a stronger word of encouragement to him. It must be difficult to move from high school to a major program like Duke and most likely his first time experiencing a lack of playing time. He seems like a very talented player and seems like a great fit for our team.
These players play a key part in our overall team success and their contributions are just as important to those who receive the majority of the court time. Just thought I'd mention that if you have the opportunity to engage the players to not forget this fact.
Keep working hard, Amile. I appreciate you.