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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 88, Cornell 47 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
12-19-2012, 08:48 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

oldnavy
12-19-2012, 08:53 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Well that was nice! Everyone played hard and the defense in the second half was insane. Saw MP3 smiling after the game so that gives me hope with regards to his foot....

ChrisP
12-19-2012, 08:54 PM
Is it too early to start a "What's wrong with Marshall Plumlee NOW vigil?" He did seem to be in good spirits at the end (but isn't that his default mode anyway?) so I am hoping he's ok.

uh_no
12-19-2012, 08:59 PM
slow start....bit rusty...then we rolled.....marshall looked good when he player...hairston took some ill advised shots...not much else to be gleaned against such an overmatched opponent

CLW
12-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Much better defensive effort/intensity in the 2nd half blew this game wide open. The glass still seems to be our weak spot but we forced more than enough turnovers to overcompensate for that tonight.

Newton_14
12-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Is it too early to start a "What's wrong with Marshall Plumlee NOW vigil?" He did seem to be in good spirits at the end (but isn't that his default mode anyway?) so I am hoping he's ok.


Pure speculation, but hoping it is a case of a set plan to play him 2 minutes early, then sitting him and seeing how the foot responds tomorrow morning. Nothing else makes a lot of sense, unless he had some pain, or unless he had vision issues with the Singler eye or something. Just an odd deal the way his night unfolded.

licc85
12-19-2012, 09:05 PM
Pure speculation, but hoping it is a case of a set plan to play him 2 minutes early, then sitting him and seeing how the foot responds tomorrow morning. Nothing else makes a lot of sense, unless he had some pain, or unless he had vision issues with the Singler eye or something. Just an odd deal the way his night unfolded.

I don't think that makes any sense at all. If he's been practicing with the team enough to get a shiner on his face, then he can play more than 2 minutes in a blowout game . . . I'm thinking he may have tweaked the foot or felt something odd. Hope it's not a setback, but it's very strange that he didn't play more.

loran16
12-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Coach k told Laura Keeley in post game that Marshall sprained a foot and thus was removed from the game

uh_no
12-19-2012, 09:19 PM
Coach k told Laura Keeley in post game that Marshall sprained a foot and thus was removed from the game

that stinks....hopefully more precautionary than anything else anyway

Newton_14
12-19-2012, 09:23 PM
that stinks....hopefully more precautionary than anything else anyway


Yeah that does stink. He played well the short time he was in there too. I am almost scared to hope if it was the previously injured foot or the other one. Dang.

Ruins what was otherwise a really good night.. That run in the second half was epic.

uh_no
12-19-2012, 09:28 PM
Yeah that does stink. He played well the short time he was in there too. I am almost scared to hope if it was the previously injured foot or the other one. Dang.

Ruins what was otherwise a really good night.. That run in the second half was epic.

35-2 i had it, or 41-4 rolls off the tongue a bit nicer

loran16
12-19-2012, 09:40 PM
Duke's O was great if not as amazing as it could've been against Cornell (our O is actually going to take a slight hit from this game in Pomeroy lol) in the first half: eFG of 63.8% which seems amazing but we only had an offensive efficiency of 113.2. (Duke's O Rating vs average teams this year is around 120). In the second half the O improved to our usual levels - finishing at 119 and at one point with about 7 minutes left being as high as 135 before we put the gas off.

But the D was the real improvement. Cornell had an eFG of 54.2% in the first half - entirely on 2 pointers (they didn't have a 3 till the last minute of the second half). That's way too high for a team of Duke's Caliber - and far higher than the 42.4% we hold average opponents to normally.

In the second half? Cornell's eFG% was 24.1% Scorching! Yeah that's why we clobbered em alright. (Their overall eFG% for the game was 37.3%). Why this was should be obvious - the team stopped allowing fast breaks off of made baskets/defensive rebounds, forced Cornell to play half court ball, and Cornell is lousy at halfcourt ball.

Duke's D isn't a top 10 D this year so far...I'd like it to be so so that our offense can have an off night. The second half was a good adjustment - let's see if they can play two halves of good D vs Elon.

dukeman28428
12-19-2012, 09:41 PM
Yeah that does stink. He played well the short time he was in there too. I am almost scared to hope if it was the previously injured foot or the other one. Dang.

Ruins what was otherwise a really good night.. That run in the second half was epic.


I am anxious to learn more about Marshall tomorrow and sincerely hope his injury is not severe. His being available to play will be a big plus for our team as we head into ACC and NCAA play. Hoping for the best and have to love this team and the way they look out for one another. GO DUKE!! :)

uh_no
12-19-2012, 09:50 PM
Duke's O was great if not as amazing as it could've been against Cornell (our O is actually going to take a slight hit from this game in Pomeroy lol) in the first half: eFG of 63.8% which seems amazing but we only had an offensive efficiency of 113.2. (Duke's O Rating vs average teams this year is around 120). In the second half the O improved to our usual levels - finishing at 119 and at one point with about 7 minutes left being as high as 135 before we put the gas off.

But the D was the real improvement. Cornell had an eFG of 54.2% in the first half - entirely on 2 pointers (they didn't have a 3 till the last minute of the second half). That's way too high for a team of Duke's Caliber - and far higher than the 42.4% we hold average opponents to normally.

In the second half? Cornell's eFG% was 24.1% Scorching! Yeah that's why we clobbered em alright. (Their overall eFG% for the game was 37.3%). Why this was should be obvious - the team stopped allowing fast breaks off of made baskets/defensive rebounds, forced Cornell to play half court ball, and Cornell is lousy at halfcourt ball.

Duke's D isn't a top 10 D this year so far...I'd like it to be so so that our offense can have an off night. The second half was a good adjustment - let's see if they can play two halves of good D vs Elon.

thanks for the number.

It was certainly a tale of two halves, and we have seen that a couple times this year, but I think this was more a case of rust...coming off finals and a long break, we took a few minutes to get situated. I would expect us to come out much stronger tomorrow (that sounds so strange...."tomorrow")

SCMatt33
12-19-2012, 10:08 PM
Most of the story of this game was pretty self evident. Duke was really rusty early. There was a lot of communication and team errors on defense. Guys weren't sure whether or not to switch on screens and it often left a guy open in the paint. Duke was able to get turnovers for some easy buckets, and that let Duke steadily build a small lead. It was 37-30 with a minute and a half left before Duke went on a 23-0 run spanning halftime. After Cornell finally made a bucket to make it 60-32, Duke immediately went on a 16-0 run for a combined 39-2 run.

Now, the rebounding. Cornell got 11 offensive boards in 37 attempts for a 29.7% offensive rebounding rate. That's actually not too bad, though it should be noted that Cornell really didn't crash the glass at all after the first few minutes in an effort to hold Duke's transition game in check. The real issue was on the offensive end, where Duke only got 4 offensive boards in 28 chances, for an abysmal 14.3% offensive rebounding rate. None of that matters in terms of winning the game when you get 23 assists (on 34 buckets, really good) to only 10 turnovers, but this is Cornell, not Ohio State, Kentucky, or Louisville. Mason and Ryan combined for a big goose egg on the offensive glass.

I'm fine chalking up the defensive rebounds to a stylistic choice. Duke puts heavy pressure on its opponents which leads to turnovers and contested shots. Amazingly, Duke has done this without fouling a lot. Duke has also been better at blocking shots than it has in any year in recent memory, so the poor rebounding (outside of Mason) isn't a big deal.

The offensive end is a different story. Duke has lived off of great shooting, not turning the ball over and getting to the line. Two of those things though, can go away in a heartbeat and there isn't much Duke can do. Somebody is going to defend them without fouling at some point, and there are always games where teams go cold from the field. It's those games where you need to get a decent amount of offensive boards. If you look at the last 10 champions (the KenPom era), many were mediocre or even poor at defensive rebounding, but only 2006 Florida was outside the top 50 in offensive rebounding and they were 105. Mason is a good offensive rebounder, at about 11%, but Ryan Kelly is only between 6 and 7%. Spreading the floor has something to do with that, and with Mason looking for post position instead of rebounding position, his numbers aren't unexpected, but he has to do a better job as switching mentalities when the shot goes up. Same goes for Ryan and even Sheed. Those guys need to crash in from the wings hard when the shot goes up. Just because you're far from the basket when a shot goes up doesn't mean you can get boards. In fact its easy for a defender to lose his block out in those cases with so much space to cover. Offensive rebounding is often considered an "effort" stat for good reason, and Duke can't simply count on 6 games in a row of good shooting and a tight whistle in March to get them by.

By the way, I know I'm being tough after a monster half after shaking off the rust, but this team has really shown that it is good enough to win a title, and it's the deeper stuff that can be the difference between a 1 seed that loses somewhere between the Sweet 16 and the Final Four, and one that brings home the trophy.

UrinalCake
12-19-2012, 10:19 PM
Could someone comment on how Murphy played? Box score shows 7 points in 16 minutes but I'm more interested in how he looked - was he in the flow of the game, did he make good decisions, and so forth.

roywhite
12-19-2012, 10:23 PM
Could someone comment on how Murphy played? Box score shows 7 points in 16 minutes but I'm more interested in how he looked - was he in the flow of the game, did he make good decisions, and so forth.

The first word that comes to mind is "inconsistent".

Could see the athleticism on one of his drives and on some good stretches of defense. Shot selection was not the best, and he missed badly on a 3-pointer. He looks like....well, like a freshman.

OldPhiKap
12-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Could someone comment on how Murphy played? Box score shows 7 points in 16 minutes but I'm more interested in how he looked - was he in the flow of the game, did he make good decisions, and so forth.

Some really nice stuff, some real freshman stuff. Kid will be very good, is still developing nicely. JMHO.

FerryFor50
12-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Could someone comment on how Murphy played? Box score shows 7 points in 16 minutes but I'm more interested in how he looked - was he in the flow of the game, did he make good decisions, and so forth.

Very good energy on defense, which is all I care about. His points will come... it's all about the defensive effort. But, Amile looked good, too. So looks like Duke is getting deeper as the season progresses. :)

loran16
12-19-2012, 10:28 PM
More on Marshall Plumlee from Laura Keeley:


News from #Duke on Marshall Plumlee. It's not a sprain. He just had discomfort due to the orthotic in his shoe. Kept him out as a precaution

Matt it's funny, I'm more worried about the defensive boards than the offensive. This Duke team just doesn't have the offensive rebounding ability of say the 2010 team. Which makes sense - we play 3 guards and Ryan's a stretch four and is unlikely to be in position to crash the offensive glass - and Mason isn't Zoubek he can't do it all himself.

Defensively, there's clear room for improvement - Ryan can play more like a typical 4 on D which, while removing some of his defensive uniqueness, I think would be better since it would prevent opponents from getting second chances. But offensively, I don't see the improvement possible.

Newton_14
12-19-2012, 10:28 PM
Could someone comment on how Murphy played? Box score shows 7 points in 16 minutes but I'm more interested in how he looked - was he in the flow of the game, did he make good decisions, and so forth.

Murph played really well actually. His defense was really good. He had a couple of disruptive plays that led to a teammate getting credit for the steal, a few blocked shots, etc. Once he entered the game in the 2nd half at the 15 minute mark or so, he never came out again. Knocked down a corner 3, and finished a nice alley oop pass from Rasheed with a one handed tip in.

His confidence seems to be going up each game. I was more than pleased with how he played. I thought Amile had a nice game as well.

Billy Dat
12-19-2012, 11:03 PM
I thought we looked great. The first half was close but Cornell was playing hard coming off a recent stretch against tough teams. We had to shake off the rust. Once we did, a lot of great things started to happen:

-Quinn Cook was a maestro running the team, 12 assists in 26 minutes.
-Sheed's defense was insane, he was a one man disruption. 3 steals, many more deflections, etc. Plus, he scored 16, in 26 minutes.
-Mason was finishing around the rim like a beast.
-Curry scored with ease and looked really good.
-Amile showed a nice finishing touch, especially using the glass from odd angles. He gets to the rim quicker then you think he will due to his length.
-I thought Murphy looked great, the best I have seen him look. He had deflections, blocks, a 3, some nice finishes around the rim, including an almost alley-oop. He looked happy and excited
-Marshall DID look good in his two minutes. What a tease. I hope he's ok.
-Todd Z got some minutes and ESPNU did a great thing. They called out his stats on TV, gave him several replays from different angles on his turnaround, and generally pumped up his 4 minutes as much as they could. Nice work from the WW Leader.

Bring on Elon.

devildeac
12-19-2012, 11:16 PM
Is it too early to start a "What's wrong with Marshall Plumlee NOW vigil?" He did seem to be in good spirits at the end (but isn't that his default mode anyway?) so I am hoping he's ok.

I'll speculate that the staff really limited his minutes tonight to see how the foot felt and he'll see a few more minutes against Elon tomorrow.

davekay1971
12-19-2012, 11:24 PM
We have a really, really good basketball team. Quinn Cook is turning out to be everything we hoped he'd be, Sulaimon is better than we had any right to hope he'd be, and Mason is arguably the low post player in America right now (despite his short big man coach).

I'm enjoying this.

sagegrouse
12-19-2012, 11:41 PM
It was 28-26 Duke in the first half. Then it was 66-32 Duke in the second. That's 38-6! Then it was 82-34. That's 44-8! Does that square with the official tally?

Of course, since we lost the last few minutes, 13-6, I guess that proves this team doesn't know how to finish and, therefore, is doomed to an early exit from the NCAA's. :p

sagegrouse

uh_no
12-19-2012, 11:42 PM
I'll speculate that the staff really limited his minutes tonight to see how the foot felt and he'll see a few more minutes against Elon tomorrow.

unfortunately your speculation is wildly off


He did fine, and then he didn’t re-injure his foot, but he sprained his foot. He has a little slight sprain, and we didn’t want to put him back [in]. We weren’t completely sure. It was too bad, he would have had a lot of minutes tonight…they just said he hurt his foot, so I assume, and then they said he is not coming in the game, so I haven’t had a chance to talk to him yet.

we'll see what happens tomorrow

loran16
12-20-2012, 12:04 AM
I'll speculate that the staff really limited his minutes tonight to see how the foot felt and he'll see a few more minutes against Elon tomorrow.

A later quote by Duke's staff clarified that it wasn't a sprain, but he did feel discomfort.

Kedsy
12-20-2012, 12:07 AM
35-2 i had it, or 41-4 rolls off the tongue a bit nicer

I'm going with 48-6.

Kedsy
12-20-2012, 12:15 AM
More on Marshall Plumlee from Laura Keeley:


News from #Duke on Marshall Plumlee. It's not a sprain. He just had discomfort due to the orthotic in his shoe. Kept him out as a precaution

Matt it's funny, I'm more worried about the defensive boards than the offensive. This Duke team just doesn't have the offensive rebounding ability of say the 2010 team. Which makes sense - we play 3 guards and Ryan's a stretch four and is unlikely to be in position to crash the offensive glass - and Mason isn't Zoubek he can't do it all himself.

Defensively, there's clear room for improvement - Ryan can play more like a typical 4 on D which, while removing some of his defensive uniqueness, I think would be better since it would prevent opponents from getting second chances. But offensively, I don't see the improvement possible.

I agree with you regarding offensive rebounding. We generally aren't going to dominate the offensive glass and frankly we don't need to, so long as we keep the turnovers down. With Mason inside, even if our outside shooters go cold our eFG% is always going to be decent and we're going to get to the line at a reasonable rate.

Defensive rebounding is another story, but hopefully we'll continue to improve in that area.

Kedsy
12-20-2012, 12:20 AM
It was 28-26 Duke in the first half. Then it was 66-32 Duke in the second. That's 38-6! Then it was 82-34. That's 44-8! Does that square with the official tally?

It was 76-32, so it was 48-6, not 38-6. You're right it was 82-34, but that made it 54-8, not 44-8.

wk2109
12-20-2012, 01:05 AM
Does anyone remember Nolan's alley oop to Kyle against St. John's during the 09-10 season? (play #2 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oizo3DFhCfU) The pass was just barely within Kyle's reach and he was able to tap it onto the rim and in. Rasheed's oop to Alex was eerily similar, down to the ball bouncing around the rim before falling. I made a screen shot of both plays side-by-side:

3038

And not only did the plays look almost identical, but if you look closely, they both touched the ball with 32 seconds left on the shot clock (though you can't see the clock in Alex's picture).

Greg_Newton
12-20-2012, 01:14 AM
Have we ever scored 40+ points in a half before the other team scored five? Freaking amazing.

When everything starts clicking for this team and they start rolling, it's a beautiful thing to watch. 30-0, 48-6... some truly incredible runs. Cornell isn't great, but they did only lose to Vandy by 11 on Monday.

I also like that we sort of have a dormant secret weapon in Seth Curry. He had a "quiet" game tonight, in that he wasn't really a main focus of the action, but you get the sense that he can score any time we run that corner double screen for him. Scary efficient.

I like that we're not leaning on that heavily during the season, but it's a nice little safety blanket to know (hopefully...) we'll have for the tournament. He's got the ability to bail us out on an otherwise horrible night, which is a nice margin of error to have when you're trying to win six in a row.

gumbomoop
12-20-2012, 01:58 AM
-Curry scored with ease and looked really good.
-Amile showed a nice finishing touch, especially using the glass from odd angles. He gets to the rim quicker then you think he will due to his length.


Agree especially with these observations. Although Seth won't make every shot, what's striking is that he looks as if he expects to do so. His handle is improved just enough that he's developed a variety of moves to create distance and get off shots from many spots on the floor, inside and beyond the arc.

Jefferson exhibits a combo of weirdly effective awkwardness and slinky smoothness, which involves body twisting, ball shifting from one hand to the other, and, as Billy Dat notes, odd-angle-glass-touch.

If you recorded the game, check out the nondescript yet interesting quick release by Amile at the 3:30 mark of the 1st half. Neither dramatic nor special, just mundanely effective, because of instinctive judgment and deft touch to make the banked floater look like a gimme. It wasn't, because Amile shot the ball immediately after receiving it, as a defender came flying past. Also liked his driving bank shot at 15:25 of 2d half, again displaying good touch after a bump by defender.

I'm confident, and a little dismayed, that if Amile were to appear on an ESPN highlight reel from the game, it would have been his dunk after a great assist from Quinn. But it was his other 2, unspectacular, baskets that impressed me. And Billy Dat.

greybeard
12-20-2012, 02:05 AM
It's amazing what AD's like that jerk at Cornell will do for cash. There were a ton of games on tonight like this one. I'd have no part in em. I would not seen my team out on the out to look like incompetents. They are that relative to Duke, but I think it shameful to make these players becoe cannon fodder like this for dollars. I'd rather see the Ivies provide scholorships and play sane schedules like everyone else. Maybe Cornell could hook up with the Catholic Schools that just left the Big East, which now you must admit is no more, offer schoolships and become the power in the finger lakes like Syracuse. Fact, when Bayheim and Bing played for Syracuse, Cornell kicked the snot out of them. The game has changed. Cornell hasn't except now it is out of integrity with upholding the dignity of its athletes. Really, a dog and pony show, the Washington whatevers to the Globetrooters. All I can say is that from now on I'll find something better to do with my $25 than to give it to Cornell's scholorship fund, that is at least they sweep the knuckleheads who are responsible for this out of the athletic department.

Hey, why am I writing this here. First of all I doubt that Cornell has any place to write this kind of stuff, and, am certain that, if it did, no one ever visits it. Second, it does take two to tango, and I don't care which of the littles the big time coaches invite to the dance, paying "for it" gives me the creeps. I would have been fine if K had invited Cornell to play and kept the game on channels in the Triangle and finger lakes if he wanted to slaughter them (actually, probably not, the slaughter part oftens me), but on national TV? And, to make minced meat out of some young men so your "kids" get a taste of all-out aggression and the blood it can bring as if they are a bunch of lion cubs, come on, K, even in the army they don't use real bullets. K was coached by Cornell Captain David Bliss when he arrived at the Point and probably for the rest of his time there. Bliss and K spent time together as assistants for Knight at Indiana and Bliss went on to have a very successful career as a DI head coach until he tried to get a player to fabricate a cover story to blunt the impact when another player was found in the desert with I think it was one or two bullets in his head. Well, I had spent a fair amount of time on and around the court preseason my freshman year, and I have to believe that as low as this guy would go, and I know we are talking low here, he wouldn't be part of no paid for slaughter.

K probably has been doing this for years, only I never watch because, who doesn't have something better to do. The Christians against the lions have a better chance, and once they get killed, which is right quick, they are out of pain. I'd walk away from a pick up game if it went in the direction that these games do. And, it wouldn't matter what side I was on. Boy, Duke sure did look good, didn't it. Please.

duke09hms
12-20-2012, 02:18 AM
It's amazing what AD's like that jerk at Cornell will do for cash. There were a ton of games on tonight like this one. I'd have no part in em. I would not seen my team out on the out to look like incompetents. They are that relative to Duke, but I think it shameful to make these players becoe cannon fodder like this for dollars. I'd rather see the Ivies provide scholorships and play sane schedules like everyone else. Maybe Cornell could hook up with the Catholic Schools that just left the Big East, which now you must admit is no more, offer schoolships and become the power in the finger lakes like Syracuse. Fact, when Bayheim and Bing played for Syracuse, Cornell kicked the snot out of them. The game has changed. Cornell hasn't except now it is out of integrity with upholding the dignity of its athletes. Really, a dog and pony show, the Washington whatevers to the Globetrooters. All I can say is that from now on I'll find something better to do with my $25 than to give it to Cornell's scholorship fund, that is at least they sweep the knuckleheads who are responsible for this out of the athletic department.

Hey, why am I writing this here. First of all I doubt that Cornell has any place to write this kind of stuff, and, am certain that, if it did, no one ever visits it. Second, it does take two to tango, and I don't care which of the littles the big time coaches invite to the dance, paying "for it" gives me the creeps. I would have been fine if K had invited Cornell to play and kept the game on channels in the Triangle and finger lakes if he wanted to slaughter them (actually, probably not, the slaughter part oftens me), but on national TV? And, to make minced meat out of some young men so your "kids" get a taste of all-out aggression and the blood it can bring as if they are a bunch of lion cubs, come on, K, even in the army they don't use real bullets. K was coached by Cornell Captain David Bliss when he arrived at the Point and probably for the rest of his time there. Bliss and K spent time together as assistants for Knight at Indiana and Bliss went on to have a very successful career as a DI head coach until he tried to get a player to fabricate a cover story to blunt the impact when another player was found in the desert with I think it was one or two bullets in his head. Well, I had spent a fair amount of time on and around the court preseason my freshman year, and I have to believe that as low as this guy would go, and I know we are talking low here, he wouldn't be part of no paid for slaughter.

K probably has been doing this for years, only I never watch because, who doesn't have something better to do. The Christians against the lions have a better chance, and once they get killed, which is right quick, they are out of pain. I'd walk away from a pick up game if it went in the direction that these games do. And, it wouldn't matter what side I was on. Boy, Duke sure did look good, didn't it. Please.

Lol sour grapes. Don't want to see Cornell get stomped? Don't watch it.

Greg_Newton
12-20-2012, 02:23 AM
I'm a little more sympathetic to that argument in football, because it's so much harder to overcome a physical talent gap and is dangerous for the players.

Cornell kept all three BCS games in single digits last season, and is only 2.5 years removed from blowing out Temple and Wisconsin to reach the sweet sixteen. When this was scheduled, I doubt they imagined they were sending their cannon fodder team out for slaughter (and they did play Duke virtually even for the first ~15 minutes).

I also think the gap is closing pretty quickly between BCS conference teams and the mid-major types. Seems like there used to only be close upsets every once in a while in those games... now stuff like this (http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?id=323540324) seems to be happening every week. :eek:

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-20-2012, 05:37 AM
I would not seen my team out on the out to look like incompetents. They are that relative to Duke, but I think it shameful to make these players becoe cannon fodder like this for dollars.... Really, a dog and pony show, the Washington whatevers to the Globetrooters... I'd walk away from a pick up game if it went in the direction that these games do. And, it wouldn't matter what side I was on.

I get the sense from your righteous indignation that perhaps you didn't watch the game. If you had, you would realize that yes, it got out of hand in the second half, but that after 10 minutes of play your "cannon fodder" had played Duke even. And after 15 minutes of play the "dog and pony show" was still a two point contest.

And as far as "cash grabs" go, I would MUCH rather play a few games against overmatched/undermatched opponents where all the kids get to play on national television than to see bankrupt athletic departments paint themselves into a corner where they feel they have to leave their conference. Do you really think that the Cornell players weren't amped to play on ESPN? They had some great highlights and some fantastic fastbreaks that were almost surely on SportsCenter last night. These are 18 year old kids playing in a top notch environment in front of a national audience against the number one team in the nation and they played them very well for most of the first half.

Speaking as a non-Division 1 athlete, I would have given just about anything for the chance to play at Cameron Indoor, been on ESPN, or give the #1 team a good run for a half. Instead, I'll just be satisfied with rec league titles (which was also lots of fun, but wasn't on national tv).

Go Duke!

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2012, 06:30 AM
I'd like to ask the idiots who made that list of top-50 NCAA PGs and left Quinn off what they think about that now. Averaging over 6 assists/game, over 10 ppg, shooting almost 50% on 3 pointers, and has an a:to of over 2:1. He's also turned into a pretty good defender, gets a few steals and runs an excellent offense on the best team in the country. So the question really is: is there actually a better PG in the NCAA? I haven't paid attention to much beyond Duke, but Craft was not better than Cook, Siva was not better, UK's PG was not better.
Now Cook doesn't operate in a vacuum, he's got good players around him who make shots: Plumlee is shooting great from the floor and makes it easy to get assists, Curry has been on fire lately and stretches defenses away from Quinn, Kelly also forces defenses to stay with him and can hit jumpers. Yet, Sulaimon has also shown the knack for setting up good shots for others and may actually eat in to some of the "pure assist numbers" Cook could get. However, Rasheed has been so good that he probably makes Quinn's job easier by forcing teams to respect his game. It seems like vs. Cornell Quinn was content to let his teammates get the buckets as he only took 4 FGAs, all 3s. Still, the question remains, who in the NCAA is playing better as a PG than Quinn Cook so far?

Ggallagher
12-20-2012, 08:16 AM
OK - no more whining about back to back scheduling. This image is from today's Cincinnati Enquirer. Looks like Crean is trying to show Coach K what REALLY aggressive scheduling looks like.
Or maybe it's just time for a performance review with whoever is doing proof reading in the Sports section of the paper.
3039

cptnflash
12-20-2012, 08:26 AM
Still, the question remains, who in the NCAA is playing better as a PG than Quinn Cook so far?

Quinn has definitely exceeded expectations so far this year, but calling people "idiots" for leaving him off their preseason top 50 list is a bit harsh. Given how little he played last year there wasn't much to go on in terms of track record. As far as who's played better so far this year, among the top 10 teams I think you can make a case for Scottie Wilbekin at Florida, Michael Carter-Williams at Syracuse, and of course Trey Burke at Michigan who I think would easily win the Cousy award if the season ended today. And I imagine there are probably point guards at less heralded schools that are playing extremely well below the radar. But hey, the fact that Quinn is even in the conversation is a huge upside surprise, and a very welcome development. Way to go, kid!

cptnflash
12-20-2012, 08:41 AM
I agree with you regarding offensive rebounding. We generally aren't going to dominate the offensive glass and frankly we don't need to, so long as we keep the turnovers down. With Mason inside, even if our outside shooters go cold our eFG% is always going to be decent and we're going to get to the line at a reasonable rate.

Defensive rebounding is another story, but hopefully we'll continue to improve in that area.

I'd be happy if we just started to improve. Giving up a 30% oReb rate to Cornell doesn't feel like progress to me.

greybeard
12-20-2012, 09:32 AM
Lol sour grapes. Don't want to see Cornell get stomped? Don't watch it.

My intention when I started to write was just to stomp on the coach and AD from my school for putting Cornell players through this stomping for a payday. To me, it is shameful. Cornell, the Unviersity, does not need the money. If it's basketball program doesn't have the money to I don't know what, league play is a two-game a weekend bus deal for half the league games and most all the out of conference games a bus games to, which was always more than fine with us, let them sell Girl Scout cookies.

My apologies for going beyond that. I was angry and inappropropriate. The story about the K-Bliss connection, I thought was interested. I had invited inquiries about it in a post several days before the game. There were no takes except for one guy through a private e-mail. I answered straight up, pointing our that the one Cornell guy who went on to make it relatively "big" in the sport turned out to be beyond an embarassment. I thought that that was not only interesting but pathetic, which I thought would make a story worth talking about. That no one inquired said to me that you all felt it was stupid a thing for the Cornell people to do as I did. I still do, that is, think that you folks think that as well. No need for you to say it, and nobody did. As for what Bliss might have done, keeping a chunk of the dough comes to mind. Sour grapes does capture it. This is the norm and for a lot a littles, I suppose participating makes sense. I like'd like to think that an Ivy league school that has much more to stand for than is basketball program's standing outside the Ivy League would not go for such a payday. That my alma mater did, well, enough said.

Finely, the game left nothing to talk about on this Board than how the guys that you've been interested in but you have not gotten to see showed and what it might mean, I am not mad at either. Sour grapes fits too.

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2012, 09:41 AM
Quinn has definitely exceeded expectations so far this year, but calling people "idiots" for leaving him off their preseason top 50 list is a bit harsh. Given how little he played last year there wasn't much to go on in terms of track record. As far as who's played better so far this year, among the top 10 teams I think you can make a case for Scottie Wilbekin at Florida, Michael Carter-Williams at Syracuse, and of course Trey Burke at Michigan who I think would easily win the Cousy award if the season ended today. And I imagine there are probably point guards at less heralded schools that are playing extremely well below the radar. But hey, the fact that Quinn is even in the conversation is a huge upside surprise, and a very welcome development. Way to go, kid!

Thanks for the info re: quality PGs in the NCAA so far.
As far as the "idiots" comment goes, i'll stand by it, as there is no way that Duke doesn't figure into the list of top teams in the country as we were ranked ~#9 pre-season, and the PG for that team has to be in the conversation somewhere, even if he's only at #50. Sure, Quinn's FR year stats weren't awesome, but they weren't trash either, the kid sported a 3:1 a:to, which is generally taken as a (albeit imperfect) measure of PG quality. He averaged 4.4ppg and just under 2apg, neither of which would really have gotten him in the top-50 in this year's crop, but who doesn't predict improved stats for returning players in the jump from the FR to SO year? As you said, Quinn has exceeded expectations, and his numbers bear that out. I'm not saying the people who made that list should have put Quinn as the #1 PG or even top-5, or even top-25 in a pre-season list, but he should have mos def been in the top-50.

MChambers
12-20-2012, 09:45 AM
My intention when I started to write was just to stomp on the coach and AD from my school for putting Cornell players through this stomping for a payday. To me, it is shameful. Cornell, the Unviersity, does not need the money. If it's basketball program doesn't have the money to I don't know what, league play is a two-game a weekend bus deal for half the league games and most all the out of conference games a bus games to, which was always more than fine with us, let them sell Girl Scout cookies.

My apologies for going beyond that. I was angry and inappropropriate. The story about the K-Bliss connection, I thought was interested. I had invited inquiries about it in a post several days before the game. There were no takes except for one guy through a private e-mail. I answered straight up, pointing our that the one Cornell guy who went on to make it relatively "big" in the sport turned out to be beyond an embarassment. I thought that that was not only interesting but pathetic, which I thought would make a story worth talking about. That no one inquired said to me that you all felt it was stupid a thing for the Cornell people to do as I did. I still do, that is, think that you folks think that as well. No need for you to say it, and nobody did. As for what Bliss might have done, keeping a chunk of the dough comes to mind. Sour grapes does capture it. This is the norm and for a lot a littles, I suppose participating makes sense. I like'd like to think that an Ivy league school that has much more to stand for than is basketball program's standing outside the Ivy League would not go for such a payday. That my alma mater did, well, enough said.

Finely, the game left nothing to talk about on this Board than how the guys that you've been interested in but you have not gotten to see showed and what it might mean, I am not mad at either. Sour grapes fits too.
I'm sure you were frustrated, and it's understandable. But, as others have pointed out, Cornell looked good for the first 16 minutes.

Around the 10 minute mark, I remarked to my kids that I thought Cornell would run out of gas, since the game had a very fast pace. Both teams were working hard, and I doubted that Cornell was used to that level of intensity. I never expected Duke to go on a run like that, of course.

Anyway, despite the final score, I thought Cornell was actually a pretty decent team.

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2012, 09:48 AM
the other thing i liked about the game was that our underclassmen continue to look good and put up productive numbers. Rasheed has been a big-time revelation, and Quinn has exceeded (at least) my expectations. Murph'n'Mile continue to show good skills and motors. Despite the gnashing of teeth that took place re: Murphy's minutes, i think he has developed the confidence to play at this level and has earned the trust of the staff. I like that Marshall actually played, and hopefully he'll continue to grow into a role.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-20-2012, 09:49 AM
...Finely, the game left nothing to talk about on this Board than how the guys that you've been interested in but you have not gotten to see showed and what it might mean, I am not mad at either. Sour grapes fits too.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but did you watch the game? I wasn't joking earlier in the thread when I said your team performed more than admirably in the first half. Your offense was firing on all cylinders, and you were playing Duke even through most of the first half. Granted, the wheels came off in the second half to a spectacular degree, but don't you take pride in their ability to hang for 15-20 minutes?

Also, if you don't think that even Ivy League players don't enjoy the opportunity for a national audience, time on ESPN, and a chance - albeit small - to knock off the number one team in the nation, I don't understand. These are 18-22 year old kids who usually play in half-empty gyms with little or no media attention. We Duke fans are spoiled, as our team is on display 30-40 times a year in the national spotlight. Our players (mostly) have realistic dreams of playing at the next level and are used to thousands of people cheering for them or against them.

Granted, I'm not a Cornell grad like yourself, but I don't quite understand where your vitriol is coming from regarding the matchup. Do you feel as passionately about tonight's game against Elon? I'm sorry that the board readers didn't follow up with you about your K/Bliss story, but I've been coming here for a very long time and I have never once private messaged anyone about anything.

As a Duke fan, I came away with a positive impression of Cornell. Their team hung in tight for longer than anyone really expected (another poster called the game "un-loseable") and they fought through the end of the game without waving the white flag or getting chippy.

Go Duke!

pfrduke
12-20-2012, 10:21 AM
My intention when I started to write was just to stomp on the coach and AD from my school for putting Cornell players through this stomping for a payday.

In the last 5 years, Cornell has played away games against the following BCS opponents:

Duke (L, 41)
Vanderbilt (L, 10)
Wisconsin (L, 33)
Illinois (L, 4)
Penn State (L, 7)
Maryland (L, 8)
Syracuse (L, 20)
Minnesota (L, 5)
Alabama (W, 4)
Syracuse (L, 15)
St. John's (W, 5)
Kansas (L, 5)
Indiana (L, 15)
Syracuse (L, 10)
Minnesota (L, 17)

Do you object to all of those games played by Cornell? Most of them are not stompings - true, Cornell went just 2-13 against those opponents, but there are the two wins and 7 of the 13 losses are by 10 points or less.

Your concern seems to be more results-driven (i.e., it stinks to watch Cornell lose by 41) than process-driven (i.e., Cornell shouldn't play any of these "cash" games because they're non-competitive stompings).

pfrduke
12-20-2012, 10:27 AM
In the last 5 years, Cornell has played away games against the following BCS opponents:

Duke (L, 41)
Vanderbilt (L, 10)
Wisconsin (L, 33)
Illinois (L, 4)
Penn State (L, 7)
Maryland (L, 8)
Syracuse (L, 20)
Minnesota (L, 5)
Alabama (W, 4)
Syracuse (L, 15)
St. John's (W, 5)
Kansas (L, 5)
Indiana (L, 15)
Syracuse (L, 10)
Minnesota (L, 17)

Do you object to all of those games played by Cornell? Most of them are not stompings - true, Cornell went just 2-13 against those opponents, but there are the two wins and 7 of the 13 losses are by 10 points or less.

Your concern seems to be more results-driven (i.e., it stinks to watch Cornell lose by 41) than process-driven (i.e., Cornell shouldn't play any of these "cash" games because they're non-competitive stompings).

Responding to my own post to add:

In 2008, Cornell also played Duke at Duke. They lost by 14. Did you object to that game as a cash grab that showed a lack of integrity on the part of the school?

COYS
12-20-2012, 10:39 AM
A rusty first 15 minutes preceded a dominant defensive display over the final 25. Considering the layoff and the ability of some of Cornell's players, I wasn't too surprised that the game followed this script. The defensive effort for the rest of the game was truly awe-inspiring. I'm not sure we can count on forcing so many turnovers against better competition, but it was still amazing to see Duke clamp down on a team so completely.

Offensively, I think it's time to start talking about how much Seth has improved. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone recognizes that he's better this year than last, but his release on his shot has become so lightening quick that the types of tall, long, and quick defenders that bothered him in the past are of no concern, anymore. He has become more consistent with his midrange game, which makes his excellent shot fakes even more effective. In terms of his quickness, he has really adapted a Jon Scheyer-like ability to play at many different speeds to get the defense off balance before suddenly squaring up and hitting a shot. I hope he is able to manage his injury effectively, because he is simply a devastating force on offense and we need him out there. His first year playing for Duke, he had an excellent offensive rating that was almost entirely due to his stellar three point shooting and his lack of turnovers. However, he didn't handle the ball that much with Nolan and Kyrie running the point. He also didn't have to do too much playmaking with Kyle still there to handle things on offense. Thus, his usage rate remained pretty low. Last season, his usage rate went up, but so did his turnovers, which lowered his offensive rating. He also didn't score all that well inside the arc. This season, he has lowered his turnover rate to 11% while also (almost) matching his usage rate for last season (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/seth-curry). He's not diming much with Quinn handling that part of the offense, but he's scoring like crazy. He's been particularly impressive inside the arc where he has struggled at times in the past. Basically, if he is involved in a possession, it is likely to be because he makes a shot or hits a free throw. Mason has gotten the headlines and Quinn has been on everyone's mind as the most improved player, but in all honesty, Seth may have improved just as much as Quinn or Mason.

Finally, despite our strong play on offense this year, I think we need to work to get Ryan just a few more shots per game. We run some awesome curl plays for him around the elbow that have allowed him to get open midrange jumpers. I think we can run these more often. At the end of the day, it is hard to have perfect balance every night when Rasheed, Mason, Seth, Ryan and even Quinn are all deserving of shots, but I wouldn't mind us giving Ryan one to two more good looks a night.

NSDukeFan
12-20-2012, 10:50 AM
I am really excited about Marshall. If he had played the whole game, he would have had 20 rebounds and 20 blocks. I bet he has the best block % in the country. :confused:

Lar77
12-20-2012, 11:23 AM
A rusty first 15 minutes preceded a dominant defensive display over the final 25. Considering the layoff and the ability of some of Cornell's players, I wasn't too surprised that the game followed this script. The defensive effort for the rest of the game was truly awe-inspiring. I'm not sure we can count on forcing so many turnovers against better competition, but it was still amazing to see Duke clamp down on a team so completely.

Offensively, I think it's time to start talking about how much Seth has improved. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone recognizes that he's better this year than last, but his release on his shot has become so lightening quick that the types of tall, long, and quick defenders that bothered him in the past are of no concern, anymore. He has become more consistent with his midrange game, which makes his excellent shot fakes even more effective. In terms of his quickness, he has really adapted a Jon Scheyer-like ability to play at many different speeds to get the defense off balance before suddenly squaring up and hitting a shot. I hope he is able to manage his injury effectively, because he is simply a devastating force on offense and we need him out there. His first year playing for Duke, he had an excellent offensive rating that was almost entirely due to his stellar three point shooting and his lack of turnovers. However, he didn't handle the ball that much with Nolan and Kyrie running the point. He also didn't have to do too much playmaking with Kyle still there to handle things on offense. Thus, his usage rate remained pretty low. Last season, his usage rate went up, but so did his turnovers, which lowered his offensive rating. He also didn't score all that well inside the arc. This season, he has lowered his turnover rate to 11% while also (almost) matching his usage rate for last season (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/seth-curry). He's not diming much with Quinn handling that part of the offense, but he's scoring like crazy. He's been particularly impressive inside the arc where he has struggled at times in the past. Basically, if he is involved in a possession, it is likely to be because he makes a shot or hits a free throw. Mason has gotten the headlines and Quinn has been on everyone's mind as the most improved player, but in all honesty, Seth may have improved just as much as Quinn or Mason.

Finally, despite our strong play on offense this year, I think we need to work to get Ryan just a few more shots per game. We run some awesome curl plays for him around the elbow that have allowed him to get open midrange jumpers. I think we can run these more often. At the end of the day, it is hard to have perfect balance every night when Rasheed, Mason, Seth, Ryan and even Quinn are all deserving of shots, but I wouldn't mind us giving Ryan one to two more good looks a night.

What was great about Seth last night was the way he scored and kept evryone involved. Any word on why he was being iced after he came out - is the shin flaring up?

oldnavy
12-20-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm sure you were frustrated, and it's understandable. But, as others have pointed out, Cornell looked good for the first 16 minutes.

Around the 10 minute mark, I remarked to my kids that I thought Cornell would run out of gas, since the game had a very fast pace. Both teams were working hard, and I doubted that Cornell was used to that level of intensity. I never expected Duke to go on a run like that, of course.

Anyway, despite the final score, I thought Cornell was actually a pretty decent team.

I agree, I think Cornell made a very good showing. They never were going to beat Duke at Duke, but I think they played hard throughout the whole game and never looked as if they gave up. To me that is more important than the final score.

I would say that the Cornell players will be better for having played against Duke last night. I have always believed that you learn move in the valley's of life than you do on the mountain tops.

I tell my boys about the times in high school when we were beaten badly, and laugh about it now. At the time, it wasn't fun, but I also knew it wasn't the end of the world (that is tomorrow btw).

The Cornell kids have nothing to be ashamed of and at least from my perspective neither does the fan base or university.

jimsumner
12-20-2012, 12:45 PM
I agree, I think Cornell made a very good showing. They never were going to beat Duke at Duke, but I think they played hard throughout the whole game and never looked as if they gave up. To me that is more important than the final score.

I would say that the Cornell players will be better for having played against Duke last night. I have always believed that you learn move in the valley's of life than you do on the mountain tops.

I tell my boys about the times in high school when we were beaten badly, and laugh about it now. At the time, it wasn't fun, but I also knew it wasn't the end of the world (that is tomorrow btw).

The Cornell kids have nothing to be ashamed of and at least from my perspective neither does the fan base or university.

Coaches of undermanned teams that lose games like this have a standard narrative.

"This will help us when we get to conference games. We won't face anyone this talented or athletic in our conference. We tried to run our standard offense and we had some success. If we can run our offense against this team, we certainly can run it against the rest of our schedule. Plus, it's great for recruiting when we play at fill-in-the-blank-arena on national TV. It was a great learning experience."

Whether they believe all of this is another question. But Duke never has much trouble finding teams to come to Cameron and take their lumps, so I can't believe it's all about the Benjamins.

sagegrouse
12-20-2012, 01:02 PM
Duke invited Cornell to play a game at Cameron at a date that worked for the Big Red. Does anyone, outside of teams with the clout to demand a home-and-home, turn down a game at Duke, one of the top programs in college hoops? Or a chance to play at Cameron, one of the most storied venue in college hoops? Or a chance to expose the team to the wonders of a (watered-down) group of Cameron Crazies? Or a chance to play against one of the best coaches of all time?

I don't think it was "mostly about the money."

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
12-20-2012, 02:15 PM
Duke invited Cornell to play a game at Cameron at a date that worked for the Big Red. Does anyone, outside of teams with the clout to demand a home-and-home, turn down a game at Duke, one of the top programs in college hoops? Or a chance to play at Cameron, one of the most storied venue in college hoops? Or a chance to expose the team to the wonders of a (watered-down) group of Cameron Crazies? Or a chance to play against one of the best coaches of all time?

I don't think it was "mostly about the money."

sagegrouse

Not to mention a game on national television.

This game does not impact Cornell's tournament chances in the least. But it does give them some positives to take away and some things to work on for the only games that matter to them -- conference games. This is true of most mid-majors as well.

Hell, me and four buddies will suit up tomorrow night and come on up if the team is game. Wouldn't you love to tell your kid that you played a game in Cameron, and scored on whatever future NBA players were on the court last night? Sign me up.

Furniture
12-20-2012, 02:33 PM
I thought Murphy played really good! That must have been recognized by the coaching staff too because of all the minutes he got in the second half. He got a couple of really good baskets and his D was great!

oldnavy
12-20-2012, 02:57 PM
Not to mention a game on national television.

This game does not impact Cornell's tournament chances in the least. But it does give them some positives to take away and some things to work on for the only games that matter to them -- conference games. This is true of most mid-majors as well.

Hell, me and four buddies will suit up tomorrow night and come on up if the team is game. Wouldn't you love to tell your kid that you played a game in Cameron, and scored on whatever future NBA players were on the court last night? Sign me up.

Count me in! I have a great set shot! Or I say I used to have....

tommy
12-20-2012, 03:21 PM
Duke invited Cornell to play a game at Cameron at a date that worked for the Big Red. Does anyone, outside of teams with the clout to demand a home-and-home, turn down a game at Duke, one of the top programs in college hoops? Or a chance to play at Cameron, one of the most storied venue in college hoops? Or a chance to expose the team to the wonders of a (watered-down) group of Cameron Crazies? Or a chance to play against one of the best coaches of all time?

I don't think it was "mostly about the money."

sagegrouse

I question the entire premise that Cornell's scheduling had anything to do with money. If I'm not mistaken, these games result in payouts of somewhere between $50-$75,000. This is a university with a $5.23 billion dollar endowment. Billion with a b.

Sure, they have had to cut the budget of the athletic department in recent years, but I just don't see this as a case of a great university like Cornell prostituting itself for a five-figure payday. And to the degree the scheduling is related to the payout, this (http://cornellsun.com/section/sports/content/2011/02/10/ahead-new-budget-cuts-athletics-department-relies-unprecedented-fu) article, while a couple of years old, makes the point that Cornell Basketball is essentially covering the cost of a lot of the other sports that Cornell fields teams in.

loran16
12-20-2012, 03:21 PM
My intention when I started to write was just to stomp on the coach and AD from my school for putting Cornell players through this stomping for a payday. To me, it is shameful. Cornell, the Unviersity, does not need the money. If it's basketball program doesn't have the money to I don't know what, league play is a two-game a weekend bus deal for half the league games and most all the out of conference games a bus games to, which was always more than fine with us, let them sell Girl Scout cookies.

My apologies for going beyond that. I was angry and inappropropriate. The story about the K-Bliss connection, I thought was interested. I had invited inquiries about it in a post several days before the game. There were no takes except for one guy through a private e-mail. I answered straight up, pointing our that the one Cornell guy who went on to make it relatively "big" in the sport turned out to be beyond an embarassment. I thought that that was not only interesting but pathetic, which I thought would make a story worth talking about. That no one inquired said to me that you all felt it was stupid a thing for the Cornell people to do as I did. I still do, that is, think that you folks think that as well. No need for you to say it, and nobody did. As for what Bliss might have done, keeping a chunk of the dough comes to mind. Sour grapes does capture it. This is the norm and for a lot a littles, I suppose participating makes sense. I like'd like to think that an Ivy league school that has much more to stand for than is basketball program's standing outside the Ivy League would not go for such a payday. That my alma mater did, well, enough said.

Finely, the game left nothing to talk about on this Board than how the guys that you've been interested in but you have not gotten to see showed and what it might mean, I am not mad at either. Sour grapes fits too.

First my friend, Duke always plays one Ivy school each year for some reason. In our last ten years we've played an Ivy 8 out of the ten seasons, with us playing two Ivys at least once (I think twice).

Second, Duke doesn't really abuse its resources and play a lot of buy-games: Duke has only two out of top 200 schools on its opponents list this year - Georgia State and Cornell - (ignoring Wake), and Cornell is typically far better. (Georgia State was a top 100 team last year FTR).

Was there money given to Cornell to come to Duke? I have now way of knowing, but I'd bet yes - was it much? Probably not --> Cornell gains a benefit of playing here - the atmosphere and RPI boosting nature of the experience is worth it for the players.

Furniture
12-20-2012, 03:24 PM
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the "game"?

greybeard
12-21-2012, 10:22 AM
I'm sure you were frustrated, and it's understandable. But, as others have pointed out, Cornell looked good for the first 16 minutes.

Around the 10 minute mark, I remarked to my kids that I thought Cornell would run out of gas, since the game had a very fast pace. Both teams were working hard, and I doubted that Cornell was used to that level of intensity. I never expected Duke to go on a run like that, of course.

Anyway, despite the final score, I thought Cornell was actually a pretty decent team.

This will sound silly here, but I don't care whether Cornell has a pretty decent team, never have, not even when I was at Cornell and they were way, way more than "pretty decent." They had no business on the court with Duke except for a payday. None. And, the AD and the coach knew, had to know, what the price of that payday would be and who would pay it. Some Ivy league coaches get to move up because they are that good (in my day, it was Daly and Van Breda kolff.) Others should get to "be gone." Pulp Fiction. You know how I'd do the matth here.

That said, thanks MChambers, while I don't care, it is nice to know. Grey

oldnavy
12-21-2012, 11:12 AM
This will sound silly here, but I don't care whether Cornell has a pretty decent team, never have, not even when I was at Cornell and they were way, way more than "pretty decent." They had no business on the court with Duke except for a payday. None. And, the AD and the coach knew, had to know, what the price of that payday would be and who would pay it. Some Ivy league coaches get to move up because they are that good (in my day, it was Daly and Van Breda kolff.) Others should get to "be gone." Pulp Fiction. You know how I'd do the matth here.

That said, thanks MChambers, while I don't care, it is nice to know. Grey

Just for argument sake, where would you draw the line on who Duke should schedule? We play DII teams in pre-season, we play some local TAFAMC&U's (WSSU, NCCU), in fact we play several schools every year that shouldn't be on the floor with Duke "talent" wise.

Are you saying that because these kids are not on scholarship is the reason?? If not, what are your basing you frustration on and where exactly would you make the cut off as to who to schedule???

I am not trying to change your mind, but I would like to know where you would like to see the boundaries set.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2012, 12:27 PM
This will sound silly here, but I don't care whether Cornell has a pretty decent team, never have, not even when I was at Cornell and they were way, way more than "pretty decent." They had no business on the court with Duke except for a payday. None. And, the AD and the coach knew, had to know, what the price of that payday would be and who would pay it. Some Ivy league coaches get to move up because they are that good (in my day, it was Daly and Van Breda kolff.) Others should get to "be gone." Pulp Fiction. You know how I'd do the matth here.

That said, thanks MChambers, while I don't care, it is nice to know. Grey

You and I have both been members here for about five years, and I've never taken any issue with your posts before, but it really seems that this game is a very sensitive spot for you. Other posters listed a nice array of similar games against big conference teams in recent years in which Cornell has either won or been competitive. Many of us have listed all manner of reasons beyond simply the money gained by the road trip to Durham. And, nearly every person who commented on this thread has pointed out that Cornell was very competitive for the first half of the game.

Now you are claiming that you have never even cared about the quality of the Cornell basketball team.

I'm just curious in earnest - what is it about this particular matchup that offends you so greatly? I would argue that the game got out of hand in the second half, but no one else seemed as embarrassed as you do - and you say you don't care about the team.

sagegrouse
12-21-2012, 12:52 PM
You and I have both been members here for about five years, and I've never taken any issue with your posts before, but it really seems that this game is a very sensitive spot for you. Other posters listed a nice array of similar games against big conference teams in recent years in which Cornell has either won or been competitive. Many of us have listed all manner of reasons beyond simply the money gained by the road trip to Durham. And, nearly every person who commented on this thread has pointed out that Cornell was very competitive for the first half of the game.

Now you are claiming that you have never even cared about the quality of the Cornell basketball team.

I'm just curious in earnest - what is it about this particular matchup that offends you so greatly? I would argue that the game got out of hand in the second half, but no one else seemed as embarrassed as you do - and you say you don't care about the team.

Greybeard doesn't have to have a reason to become and remain a valued member of the Board. And no, he is not our crazy uncle in the attic, rattling around in the rafters. But if he doesn't care a whit about Cornell hoops, his alma mater, why does he care enough about Duke to post here? This is a rhetorical question.

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
12-21-2012, 01:03 PM
Duke football was in the habit of selling its home games in the not too distant past. I remember a "neutral" game in Florida against FSU and a game in Japan against Clemson, amongst others. Alabama only agreed to a home-and-home because they expected us to sell our home game and play it in Charlotte or somewhere neutral, I am led to understand.

Offensive? Perhaps. Good business? Perhaps.

Dumb? Perhaps as well.

jimsumner
12-21-2012, 01:06 PM
Here's part of what Matt Matheny had to say after last night's game.

"We knew it would be a daunting task and that's what we wanted. . . . I felt like we competeted for 40 minutes. When you play a team as good as Duke--you are challenged on every possession . . . that's what we're striving for in our program."

Teams like Cornell and Elon use games like this as a measuring stick, as a template for where they want to be, as a recruiting tool, as a reward for loyal fans. Not only are the not being forced to play them, they look forward to it. They circle the date on their calendars, talk about it all summer and relish the memories.

It's a big deal. And a good deal, in ways that can't be quantified by dollar signs. Trust me, Duke has no trouble filling these slots.

rthomas
12-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Here's part of what Matt Matheny had to say after last night's game.

"We knew it would be a daunting task and that's what we wanted. . . . I felt like we competeted for 40 minutes. When you play a team as good as Duke--you are challenged on every possession . . . that's what we're striving for in our program."

Teams like Cornell and Elon use games like this as a measuring stick, as a template for where they want to be, as a recruiting tool, as a reward for loyal fans. Not only are the not being forced to play them, they look forward to it. They circle the date on their calendars, talk about it all summer and relish the memories.

It's a big deal. And a good deal, in ways that can't be quantified by dollar signs. Trust me, Duke has no trouble filling these slots.

Coaches and players and anyone who does anything competitive knows that you only get better when you compete against better players.

Kedsy
12-21-2012, 01:52 PM
Coaches and players and anyone who does anything competitive knows that you only get better when you compete against better players.

Up to a point. If you're hopelessly overmatched, human nature is to stop trying and get surly about it.

Not saying Cornell was anywhere near that point with Duke, but if my friends and I were to play ball against an NBA team, for example, we'd get thoroughly embarrassed, possibly get injured, and maybe get a few autographs. But I highly doubt we'd get any better.

MChambers
12-21-2012, 02:05 PM
Coaches and players and anyone who does anything competitive knows that you only get better when you compete against better players.

So Duke doesn't improve through practice? I've heard this statement, but I think it can't be true. Maybe you improve more by playing against better competition, but I can't believe that you don't get better just by playing teams that are equal to you.

oldnavy
12-21-2012, 02:06 PM
Up to a point. If you're hopelessly overmatched, human nature is to stop trying and get surly about it.

Not saying Cornell was anywhere near that point with Duke, but if my friends and I were to play ball against an NBA team, for example, we'd get thoroughly embarrassed, possibly get injured, and maybe get a few autographs. But I highly doubt we'd get any better.

With the advent of the shot clock, teams are forced to attempt to score and play until the end of the game. It would be more embarassing for a team to get way ahead of a lesser opponent and then take pity on them and stop playing.

Having said that, Duke has always held the ball when they had the last possession with the shot clock off even when the walk on's are in the game. This is something I respect about Duke and coach K.

UNC on the other hand try to score regardless all the way to the end. That has always bothered me. If they are winning by 30 and have the ball with 10 seconds, you can expect them to shot. Their answer to this is that the walk on's deserve a chance to score, well, fine, but not after the shot clock is off and you have possession on the ball. I think it is unsportsman like to not run out the clock in that situation.

greybeard
12-21-2012, 04:30 PM
Just for argument sake, where would you draw the line on who Duke should schedule? We play DII teams in pre-season, we play some local TAFAMC&U's (WSSU, NCCU), in fact we play several schools every year that shouldn't be on the floor with Duke "talent" wise.

Are you saying that because these kids are not on scholarship is the reason?? If not, what are your basing you frustration on and where exactly would you make the cut off as to who to schedule???

I am not trying to change your mind, but I would like to know where you would like to see the boundaries set.

I am not a fan of the now normative practice of big time programs offering small programs who need it a big payday in exchange for their kids being cannon fodder. I am not a fan, but understand the value in it for both, especially the little. My issue was and remains with Cornell's AD and coach.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2012, 04:33 PM
I am not a fan of the now normative practice of big time programs offering small programs who need it a big payday in exchange for their kids being cannon fodder. I am not a fan, but understand the value in it for both, especially the little. My issue was and remains with Cornell's AD and coach.

Sounds like a fair difference of reasoned opinions to me.

Newton_14
12-21-2012, 11:39 PM
Here's part of what Matt Matheny had to say after last night's game.

"We knew it would be a daunting task and that's what we wanted. . . . I felt like we competeted for 40 minutes. When you play a team as good as Duke--you are challenged on every possession . . . that's what we're striving for in our program."

Teams like Cornell and Elon use games like this as a measuring stick, as a template for where they want to be, as a recruiting tool, as a reward for loyal fans. Not only are the not being forced to play them, they look forward to it. They circle the date on their calendars, talk about it all summer and relish the memories.

It's a big deal. And a good deal, in ways that can't be quantified by dollar signs. Trust me, Duke has no trouble filling these slots.

Agree. I was surrounded by about 8 Elon fans last night. All were giddy the entire night. The guy in front of me took about a gazillion pictures of everthing from the scoreboard to the banners and texted the entire game, keeping some Elon buddy of his updated on practically a minute by minute basis. They all loved it, and the fact that their guys hung in for so long made them proud. I had good conversation throughout the night with several of them and told them their squad was much better than Cornell. (Sorry Greybeard) :)

When Duke finally went on the fatal run, they applauded their guys for hanging in so long and said "Well, we knew it was coming. Just a matter of when".

No doubt it was a "Christmas Present" type of event for them. They left with no shame, which I found quite appropriate. Their team will win their fair share of games this year.

greybeard
12-22-2012, 12:59 AM
Greybeard doesn't have to have a reason to become and remain a valued member of the Board. And no, he is not our crazy uncle in the attic, rattling around in the rafters. But if he doesn't care a whit about Cornell hoops, his alma mater, why does he care enough about Duke to post here? This is a rhetorical question.

sagegrouse

What can I say, I found my way to this Board when a friend pointed out that a kid who I used to play ball with was a cover story (that would be Matt Laurence), and decided to stay for reasons that are obvious. The rhetorical part, not caring about Cornell's basketball program is one thing; watching the beat down the other night is another.

Listen, Duke is an entirely different sports culture than the one I experienced at Cornell. Me and my friends loved going to Cornell sporting events when we were there, even football games when Tom Harp was the coach and watching was akin to watching grass grow. None of us have cared about Cornell sports since, except for Arthur Kaminsky who loved Cornell hockey, went on to become a big time agent, and has recruited athletes for Cornell sports since we graduated. The lone exception to not caring for me was the fairly recent spat of Cornell LAX's final fourappearances. What really drew my interest was that, upon hearing that Cornell was undefeated going into the first of those appearances, I checked the Big Red Sports webpage and discovered not only that Cornell's leader was a graduate of my high school, but also that Cornell had played the University of freakin Notre Dame there (Arthur told me that he arranged that but, when I met former Cornell coaching great, Richie Moran, he said that he did). It turned out that no one in our fraternity but me and Arthur cared a whit about Cornell's final four runs, even the next to last one which hurts to this day.

By the way, the earlier Duke-Cornell game, the one in which it was clear to me that Cornell could represent, we had some fun with that before they played, I had no choice but to watch, and was glad I did. I know that this sounds weird, but the sweet sixteen game that year, maybe five minutes. Arthur went, even dragged his college roommate with him; Alan, I can assure you, really appreciated it (fraternity brothers, you do what you have to).

So it goes, Sagegrouse, so it goes. Duke basketball, K, David Bliss, Art Heyman, Larry Brown, Brian McSweeny, Matthew Laurence; let's chalk it up to fate.