Let them be students and family members for a while

[allenmurray]

As if college athletics are not already out-of-control enough, from todays' home page article we get this from the DBR brain trust:

The structure (of the college basketball season) is ridiculous: a season-opening marathon to feed ESPN, a series of Thanksgiving tournaments, and then…well, nothing for three or four weeks . . . why not mandate a five-day period in late December where the schedules are left open? Then special matchups could take place . . . But we really like the idea of a holiday tournament where either eight or sixteen top teams get together and just have a cage fight.

These college students who entertain us are often as young as 18 or 19 years old, and live hundreds of miles from home. In addition to being full-time students they have grueling practice and travel schedules. Now DBR thinks they should give up some of their only "time off" to entertain us. I have an idea - give them a break (whether they want it or not - maybe the universities should act like the grown-up here). Instead of taking their break away maybe make it mandatory - shut down the whole college basketball schedule from exams until after New Years Day. No practices, no games - nothing. Let them stay home with their mom and dad and brothers and sisters and grandparents. Let them visit friends back home. Let them enjoy a holiday break between semesters, you know like the college students that they are. Our need for constant entertainment shouldn't over ride their need to be regular college students who need a break for both their bodies and minds for a couple of weeks.

[wilson]

As if college athletics are not already out-of-control enough, from todays' home page article we get this from the DBR brain trust:

The structure (of the college basketball season) is ridiculous: a season-opening marathon to feed ESPN, a series of Thanksgiving tournaments, and then…well, nothing for three or four weeks . . . why not mandate a five-day period in late December where the schedules are left open? Then special matchups could take place . . . But we really like the idea of a holiday tournament where either eight or sixteen top teams get together and just have a cage fight.

These college students who entertain us are often as young as 18 or 19 years old, and live hundreds of miles from home. In addition to being full-time students they have grueling practice and travel schedules. Now DBR thinks they should give up some of their only "time off" to entertain us. I have an idea - give them a break (whether they want it or not - maybe the universities should act like the grown-up here). Instead of taking their break away maybe make it mandatory - shut down the whole college basketball schedule from exams until after New Years Day. No practices, no games - nothing. Let them stay home with their mom and dad and brothers and sisters and grandparents. Let them visit friends back home. Let them enjoy a holiday break between semesters, you know like the college students that they are. Our need for constant entertainment shouldn't over ride their need to be regular college students who need a break for both their bodies and minds for a couple of weeks.I could not more wholeheartedly agree. We're pretty fond around here of taking certain people or programs to task for not doing things "the right way," yet we'd have these kids (and yes, they are kids) just play and play and play because we're off of work for a while and we're bored or something. Oh, and by the way, they'd better play at a high level while continuing to meet requirements at an elite university. The break in the schedule is deserved, it is normal, and it is evidence of some vestige of sensible behavior in big-time college athletics. I continue to applaud the fact that these kids have a lull in the schedule at this time of year, for the same reasons as allenmurray.

[Edouble]

I could not more wholeheartedly agree. We're pretty fond around here of taking certain people or programs to task for not doing things "the right way," yet we'd have these kids (and yes, they are kids) just play and play and play because we're off of work for a while and we're bored or something. Oh, and by the way, they'd better play at a high level while continuing to meet requirements at an elite university. The break in the schedule is deserved, it is normal, and it is evidence of some vestige of sensible behavior in big-time college athletics. I continue to applaud the fact that these kids have a lull in the schedule at this time of year, for the same reasons as allenmurray.

Agree, agree, agree... not to mention the "cage match" would draw pretty low TV ratings when forced to go head-to-head against the bowl schedule.

I'm sure that we are undefeated at this point, against an insane schedule, in part, because our guys know that they will have this little holiday R&R at the end of the month. It makes it much easier to go all out when you can see your break on the horizon.

[BigWayne]

Really happy to see this thread. When I was reading the post that inspired it, I was thinking the same thing.
Of all the articles I have seen on DukeBasketballReport.com since it's inception, this was the one I most disagreed with.

[davekay1971]

Agreed, although not due to age. 18 year olds are allowed to make many independent decisions, far weightier than whether or not to accept a scholarship and the concomitant dramatic increase in extra-curricular responsibilities and decreased family time. The universities don't need to be the adults...unless we, as a society, redefine adulthood to something older than 18 (different argument and thread entirely, and maybe a worthwhile discussion, but until we say 18 is too young to volunteer to hold a machine gun and spend 2 years defending my right to be blogging in Charlotte, I won't say 18 is too young for someone to make a decisin to play a sport that makes them spend tons of time away from family and studying).

I agree because the universities need to step up and be universities. If they are there to educate their students, including the ones playing basketball and football (looking at you, UNC, and all your well educated non-revenue-athlete alums and your poorly educated revenue-athlete alums), the universities need to impose limits on how often and when their student-athletes will practice and play. ESPN has a clear motive: entertain and sell. The universities should also have a clear motive: educate. If the universities give up that motive, we really should move to a minor league system and let these young adults make a different decision: college or pro.

[-jk]

I suspect Julio is pining for the Dixie Classic again.

By all accounts, it was awesome. Well, except for the cigarette smoke slowly filling the gym, from the top down, over three days.

-jk

[Indoor66]

I suspect Julio is pining for the Dixie Classic again.

By all accounts, it was awesome. Well, except for the cigarette smoke slowly filling the gym, from the top down, over three days.

-jk

The smoking filled Reynolds quite quickly - almost as fast as it filled the Indoor Stadium until Terry ended smoking after Margaret Rose had a burn hole in her sweater after a game. :cool:

[rthomas]

I'll just say that kids want to play. They are going in to work out between exams. They are not gonna sit at home on the couch with their parents during Christmas watching Oprah. They are gonna be lifting weights and playing pickup even if it's not at a real practice. and if it's at practice, they would rather play somebody other than a teammate.

I'm petty sure, given the mo that Duke has, they would rather play than sit.

[ScreechTDX1847]

DBR posts questionable articles semi-regularly in my opinion.

[throatybeard]

Put me full-throatedly on Allen Murray's side of this issue.

I find a lot of attitudes on this board about universities extremely disturbing.

Something that really made an impression on me when I moved from Mississippi State to UMSL was how sports fans acted. I got quite a bit of incredulity, people questioning me on the basis that I was a sports fan, and how on earth could I move from an SEC school to...well people haven't heard of UMSL because it's a small research university with D-II sports, and snobs (on the one hand) only care about how many undergraduate applications are rejected from the University, not about the quality of the faculty's research profile. And most people aren't aware of research at all, and experience the universities primarily through sports. So the people who are involved in the core mission of universities get pounded from both sides: from snobs who think only the US News Top 25 are "Academic Schools", and from sports fans who don't care at all about the academic side. The worst is the hybrid: the Duke fan who wants to be a snot about US News rankings but also wants constant D-I basketball, and God forbid the team wins fewer than thirty games, or the winningest coach in the history of the game is an idiot who can't manage a bench.

Strangely enough, I'm perfectly capable of rooting for a Duke or an MSU or an NCSU without being at one.

I've got to tell you, I am thrilled to be at a school where we don't really have to worry about tens of thousands of people taking the campus over on seven Saturdays. And I'm a sports fan. I remember the day when we were debating on which Saturday to hold the English MA exam at Mississippi State. Someone proposed second Saturday in September, because that would give the kids about three weeks to study after school got back in session. I put up my hand and pointed out that it would be a mess because Auburn was coming that weekend. The faculty [resentfully] agreed second Saturday was a non-starter.

The degree to which sports shapes the consciousness of the public where Universities are concerned is terrifying. I'll give an example, not naming names. I know a guy who doesn't really post here much anymore, who has a BA from Duke and an MBA from Michigan, which would pass anyone's prestige smell test. And he's very successful. We're happy where we are, but my wife likes to see what's out there on the job list in October every year, and there was a job at a 4-4 school in the northern panhandle of WV, and I knew he had lived in or near the town, so I asked him what the school was like. His answer was that "it's a D-III school." The answer I got was at what level they play sports. This is not someone unacquainted with Higher Ed. This is a guy with a post-graduate degree. But what matters? Who do they play in sports? WashU plays D-III sports. But what on earth does that tell me about the school?

That really gobsmacked me.

This is the world we live in, and I've largely given up on the world we live in, and nobody's attitude about anything is going to change, and Duke snot will rain down on Louisville as long as they are in the ACC, even as people moan and whine about us not playing every three days through winter break. But I'm glad Duke only plays like two games in three weeks in December, or whatever it is. Amateurism may be a fraud, but we aren't solely a Triple A squad for the NBA. Let Sulaimon and Curry eat some damn turkey with their families, especially after their Thanksgiving was co-opted by the sport.

Another hearty agreement with someone upthread: a college basketball "cage match" would get slaughtered in the ratings by Bowl games and the NFL. Nobody except diehard CBB fans pays attention to CBB until the Super Bowl is over. There's a reason they've moved the first Carolina-Duke game later and later, until it's after the Super Bowl. It's because it's the beginning of the season as far as the general sports public is concerned. CBB fans need to get over it, but the fact is the first three months of the season are irrelevant to most people. If you're lucky. It might be until those brackets come out in March.

[Bob Green]

CBB fans need to get over it, but the fact is the first three months of the season are irrelevant to most people. If you're lucky. It might be until those brackets come out in March.

Pure sacrilege! The artist below misspelled "College Basketball."

3011

:D

[allenmurray]

Agreed, although not due to age. 18 year olds are allowed to make many independent decisions, far weightier than whether or not to accept a scholarship and the concomitant dramatic increase in extra-curricular responsibilities and decreased family time. The universities don't need to be the adults...unless we, as a society, redefine adulthood to something older than 18 (different argument and thread entirely, and maybe a worthwhile discussion, but until we say 18 is too young to volunteer to hold a machine gun and spend 2 years defending my right to be blogging in Charlotte, I won't say 18 is too young for someone to make a decisin to play a sport that makes them spend tons of time away from family and studying).

I agree because the universities need to step up and be universities. If they are there to educate their students, including the ones playing basketball and football (looking at you, UNC, and all your well educated non-revenue-athlete alums and your poorly educated revenue-athlete alums), the universities need to impose limits on how often and when their student-athletes will practice and play. ESPN has a clear motive: entertain and sell. The universities should also have a clear motive: educate. If the universities give up that motive, we really should move to a minor league system and let these young adults make a different decision: college or pro.

I thnk we are saying the same thing. Clearly they are legally adults, but as you said,


the universities need to step up and be universities . . . the universities need to impose limits on how often and when their student-athletes will practice and play. ESPN has a clear motive: entertain and sell. The universities should also have a clear motive: educate.

While the students are "legal adults", the universty here is the one who needs to "act like a grown-up". An 18 year old might come back from an injury too soon, might play more games than is academically or even physically appropriate, might take a poorly designed group of classes, etc unless they get guidance from the university. By the way, I never said the atheltes wre not adults, I said the university needed to act like the "grown-up", a colloquialism for acting mature. While an 18 year old might be a legal adult, anyone who has ever been an 18 year old, or parented an 18 year old, or coached an 18 year old,or taught an 18 year old knows they might meet the legal definition of adult, but that doesn't mean they make mature decisions.

[davekay1971]

I thnk we are saying the same thing. Clearly they are legally adults, but as you said,



While the students are "legal adults", the universty here is the one who needs to "act like a grown-up". An 18 year old might come back from an injury too soon, might play more games than is academically or even physically appropriate, might take a poorly designed group of classes, etc unless they get guidance from the university. By the way, I never said the atheltes wre not adults, I said the university needed to act like the "grown-up", a colloquialism for acting mature. While an 18 year old might be a legal adult, anyone who has ever been an 18 year old, or parented an 18 year old, or coached an 18 year old,or taught an 18 year old knows they might meet the legal definition of adult, but that doesn't mean they make mature decisions.

All true. I'll start a discussion about whether the military should allow 18 year olds to enlist, vs pushing enlistment age up to 21, on the PPB. Oh wait...:rolleyes:

[Bob Green]

All true. I'll start a discussion about whether the military should allow 18 year olds to enlist, vs pushing enlistment age up to 21, on the PPB. Oh wait...:rolleyes:

The minimum enlistment age is 17. I enlisted eight months before my 18th birthday.

[johnb]

Agree with the above, including the bit about identifying an entire university with its sports teams. I'd add that the average assistant professor at Louisville is MUCH more academic than the average Duke graduate, and so I'm not sure why we need to look down on the entire institution.

Speaking of schedules...

Why does college basketball last from October through April instead of January through May? "Awesome April" doesn't sound as good as March Madness, but the tournament could still wind up before the NBA playoffs. Is it just tradition or do the networks/schools/NCAA make more money by extending the season through 2 semesters--especially when the Nov/Dec tv schedule seems to get paltry ratings.

And this lengthy hiatus before the football bowls... I'm almost done assuming there's a an intelligent rationale behind the NCAA and Bowl Decisions, but is it simply to have live entertainment during the Christmas and NY holidays? And the season has to start in September to avoid the generally bad weather of December?

[sagegrouse]

Why does college basketball last from October through April instead of January through May? "Awesome April" doesn't sound as good as March Madness, but the tournament could still wind up before the NBA playoffs. Is it just tradition or do the networks/schools/NCAA make more money by extending the season through 2 semesters--especially when the Nov/Dec tv schedule seems to get paltry ratings.



The original rationale: it was an indoor winter sport. Almost 50 years ago, Duke's first game was November 30 and the last game in the ACC tournament was March 7. So, basically, the season was Decmber through the end of February with some tournament action in March. The final game in 1964 was March 21.

And, of course, that was the way Jim Brown at Syracuse could play basketball as well as football.

sagegrouse

[devil84]

The question of "Why does the season extend so long" intrigued me. I wanted to see how it evolved over time. I looked back at Duke's schedules to find out when the seasons began and ended, and listed the general trends, below. Note that the start of the season does not include exhibition games. I also looked at the holidays, and not wanting to spend an inordinate amount of time determining when the academic semester break happened each year, I looked for games during the Christmas through New Year's stretch (no slight to other holidays in December, but most of those move around and I wanted to keep my research to something I can do in an hour or so).

Prior to 1935-1936, the seasons started around mid-December (sometimes starting in the first few days of January), though many very early seasons started in January. They ended by the first week of March.
1935-1936 started in the second week of December.
1943-1944 started in November (11/30), with most starting the first week of December. The prior season is the first time a game was played between Christmas and New Year's.
1949 was the first year of the Dixie Classic, a holiday tournament between Christmas and New Year's.
1959-1960 went into the second week of March, seeing us play the first 2 rounds of the NCAA Tournament.
1962-1963 went into late March (3/23), going to the Final Four.
1976-1977 began on 11/26.
1979-1980 began on 11/17.
1999-2000 is when the ACC Tournament moved to the 2nd week of March.
2007-2008 began on 11/9.

The beginning of the basketball season has crept back from from mid-December to the beginning of November, most of that since the 1979-1980 season (ESPN launched 9/7/1979). Where dates are available, the first game is rarely after the first few days of January. One would think they would want a practice or two before a game, so that would necessitate being in Durham before the first game. I wonder if, in the early years, classes started back immediately after the new year?

The holiday tournaments (for Duke) started with the Dixie Classic in 1949. The Dixie Classic ended in 1960, but there have always been games played between Christmas and New Year's since then. Spot checking, it appears that every year there is ample time for exams, then another break for a few days to go home around Christmas (as in, a game around the 20th, then not until the 27th or later).

It appears that conference tournaments had always wrapped up in the first week of March, until 1999-2000, when they now take place on the second week. The expanding NCAA Tournament has pushed the final possible week of games into April.

While the earlier start dates and later end dates have taken place in the ESPN era, it seems that playing games over the holidays is a long standing tradition, back to 1949.

Of course, this is just Duke's schedule. But I'm assuming Duke is reasonably in line with other schools.

[wilson]

The final game in 1964 was March 21.

And, of course, that was the way Jim Brown at Syracuse could play basketball as well as football.

sagegrouseAnd lacrosse (some say he was the greatest lacrosse player ever).
http://www.lacrosse-information.com/jim-brown-lacrosse.html