MBB: Duke vs Temple 12/8/12 Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[roywhite]

Initial thoughts:

Temple beat us last year; they are always tough and physical

Duke has a great record at the Meadowlands
Memorable Meadowlands Moments from Duke Blue Planet (http://www.dukeblueplanet.com/blog.asp?bid=9&pid=310)

This should be a good test for the Blue Devils

[CDu]

Even though a lot of the names are the same, this is a somewhat different Temple team than the one that beat us last year, just like it's a different Duke team than the one that lost last year. They lost their PG (Fernandez) and their SG and best player (Moore). They've added a swingman in Scootie (great name) Randall. Randall (6'6", 225) and Wyatt (6'4", 210) are their two best players. Both are more perimeter-oriented offensively. They are, historically, good 3pt shooters, though their percentages this year leave a lot to be desired (it hasn't stopped them from putting up shots, of course).

Temple isn't very big in the post, starting Lee (6'9", 230) and Hollis-Jefferson (6'6", 215) and bringing Jake O'Brien (6'9", 220) off the bench and sprinkling Randall in at PF some of the time as well. But they are big on the wings, with Randall, Wyatt, DiLeo (6'3", 210), and Pepper (6'5", 220). The only smallish guard on the team is Cummings (6'2", 175). Should be an interesting game for Sulaimon and Thornton, assuming we stick to our guns with the 3-guard lineup. Randall is quite a rebounder from the wing (7.2 rpg). Containing Wyatt will be critical as well.

Still, Temple hasn't done anything to this point to suggest they should really threaten us. We have a BIG advantage inside, we have a better PG, and we have more scoring options, just to name a few advantages. We're much better offensively and better defensively, and we've faced a MUCH tougher schedule thus far. Temple has yet to play a team in the Pomeroy top 100, haven't looked convincing in any of their wins, and in their one common matchup they beat Delaware by only 5.

[Saratoga2]

Even though a lot of the names are the same, this is a somewhat different Temple team than the one that beat us last year, just like it's a different Duke team than the one that lost last year. They lost their PG (Fernandez) and their SG and best player (Moore). They've added a swingman in Scootie (great name) Randall. Randall (6'6", 225) and Wyatt (6'4", 210) are their two best players. Both are more perimeter-oriented offensively. They are, historically, good 3pt shooters, though their percentages this year leave a lot to be desired (it hasn't stopped them from putting up shots, of course).

Temple isn't very big in the post, starting Lee (6'9", 230) and Hollis-Jefferson (6'6", 215) and bringing Jake O'Brien (6'9", 220) off the bench and sprinkling Randall in at PF some of the time as well. But they are big on the wings, with Randall, Wyatt, DiLeo (6'3", 210), and Pepper (6'5", 220). The only smallish guard on the team is Cummings (6'2", 175). Should be an interesting game for Sulaimon and Thornton, assuming we stick to our guns with the 3-guard lineup. Randall is quite a rebounder from the wing (7.2 rpg). Containing Wyatt will be critical as well.

Still, Temple hasn't done anything to this point to suggest they should really threaten us. We have a BIG advantage inside, we have a better PG, and we have more scoring options, just to name a few advantages. We're much better offensively and better defensively, and we've faced a MUCH tougher schedule thus far. Temple has yet to play a team in the Pomeroy top 100, haven't looked convincing in any of their wins, and in their one common matchup they beat Delaware by only 5.

Except for the fact they beat many of our same guys last year, this is a perfect trap game for us. Coming in undefeated, A week of rust, a road game, they have big guards. We will get a good look at how tough our team is in this game.

Any input on whether Seth will play, MP3?

[tbyers11]

Except for the fact they beat many of our same guys last year, this is a perfect trap game for us. Coming in undefeated, A week of rust, a road game, they have big guards. We will get a good look at how tough our team is in this game.

Any input on whether Seth will play, MP3?

I think the effect of a "trap" game will be lessened by the fact that they beat us last year. I doubt there will be any overlooking of Temple this season.

In a different thread Jim Sumner said that the staff expects Seth to play this weekend. Haven't heard anything on MP3

[gumbomoop]

Generally I agree with CDu's analysis, but I think they're pretty solid. They had a mediocre first half last eve v. 'Nova, but very, very impressive second half. Dominant.

Senior-dominated team. Three experienced senior starters in Randall, Wyatt, and Hollis-Jefferson. First 2 guys off bench also seniors. Scootie Randall was injured last season, and so didn't play v. Duke. He may be [or apply to be] one of those 6-year guys - not sure - as he's a senior who's redshirted twice. Anyhow, he's good, as is Wyatt.

Randall and Wyatt like to shoot 3s. More than half of Randall's FGAs this season are 3s. About half of Wyatt's FGAs are 3s. Interestingly, 6'9" senior big off bench, O'Brien, also shoots mostly 3s - as in 2/3 of his FGAs this season.

While Duke should win, Temple's seniors won't be intimidated by Duke's record or players. Last year they thought they would beat Duke, and they did. Again this year they'll think they will win. I look for a tough game, and hope our guys got some rest this week and that Seth is healthy.

[-bdbd]

I saw much of the 'nova game, especially the second half, and they looked pretty good. 'guess you'd call them "alarmingly athletic"??!:rolleyes: They played aggressively and fairly physical at points. Lots of slashing. Don't expect to see any quit in them. They'll push us.

[CDu]

Generally I agree with CDu's analysis, but I think they're pretty solid. They had a mediocre first half last eve v. 'Nova, but very, very impressive second half. Dominant.

Senior-dominated team. Three experienced senior starters in Randall, Wyatt, and Hollis-Jefferson. First 2 guys off bench also seniors. Scootie Randall was injured last season, and so didn't play v. Duke. He may be [or apply to be] one of those 6-year guys - not sure - as he's a senior who's redshirted twice. Anyhow, he's good, as is Wyatt.

Randall and Wyatt like to shoot 3s. More than half of Randall's FGAs this season are 3s. About half of Wyatt's FGAs are 3s. Interestingly, 6'9" senior big off bench, O'Brien, also shoots mostly 3s - as in 2/3 of his FGAs this season.

While Duke should win, Temple's seniors won't be intimidated by Duke's record or players. Last year they thought they would beat Duke, and they did. Again this year they'll think they will win. I look for a tough game, and hope our guys got some rest this week and that Seth is healthy.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Temple isn't a solid team. They have a few very talented players, and they are experienced. But we also have lots of experience, and we have more talent - both in terms of top-end talent and depth of talent.

Temple will be athletic and physical, and they won't be intimidated. I just think we're a much better team this year, and I don't think the disparity was nearly as great last year when they beat us. Note also that last year's Temple team had the advantage in experience as well, as Duke's entire team was taking on new roles. Temple isn't as good as, say, Minnesota, who also was athletic and physical. And we beat Minnesota comfortably.

[Bob Green]

Randall (6'6", 225) and Wyatt (6'4", 210) are their two best players. Both are more perimeter-oriented offensively. They are, historically, good 3pt shooters, though their percentages this year leave a lot to be desired (it hasn't stopped them from putting up shots, of course).

Temple has yet to play a team in the Pomeroy top 100, haven't looked convincing in any of their wins, and in their one common matchup they beat Delaware by only 5.

The difference in the Villanova game was 3 PT FGs. Temple won by 15 points and made five more 3 PT FGs than Villanova. Both teams made 14 FTs and 16 2 PT FGs.


We will get a good look at how tough our team is in this game.

Temple will be a solid test of our perimeter defense. Cook will need to keep the pressure on their point guard in order for us to contain their 3-point shooters. We have a big advantage inside, but Temple will show up ready to give us their best shot. I'm confident we will win but this game is far from a gimme.

[gus]

Does anyone one know which basket will be Duke's?

[gumbomoop]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Temple isn't a solid team. They have a few very talented players, and they are experienced. But we also have lots of experience, and we have more talent - both in terms of top-end talent and depth of talent.

Temple will be athletic and physical, and they won't be intimidated. I just think we're a much better team this year, and I don't think the disparity was nearly as great last year when they beat us. Note also that last year's Temple team had the advantage in experience as well, as Duke's entire team was taking on new roles. Temple isn't as good as, say, Minnesota, who also was athletic and physical. And we beat Minnesota comfortably.

No real disagreement. I'm sort of agnostic on comparison between Minnesota and Temple. Probably shouldn't be, but I've no feel for Minnesota, as I don't have AXS and thus didn't see their game with Duke. But they've obviously been impressive save for [and possibly even including - I don't know] the game v. Duke, whereas Temple's 2d half last eve v. 'Nova may have been Temple's best - and possibly first really impressive [again, I don't know] - half this season.

I admire Fran Dunphy and think he knows how to give his guys a decent chance to beat Duke.

[CDu]

No real disagreement. I'm sort of agnostic on comparison between Minnesota and Temple. Probably shouldn't be, but I've no feel for Minnesota, as I don't have AXS and thus didn't see their game with Duke. But they've obviously been impressive save for [and possibly even including - I don't know] the game v. Duke, whereas Temple's 2d half last eve v. 'Nova may have been Temple's best - and possibly first really impressive [again, I don't know] - half this season.

I admire Fran Dunphy and think he knows how to give his guys a decent chance to beat Duke.

In analyzing Temple, it's important to note that this isn't the Villanova of the past. They are 4-4, with losses to Columbia, La Salle, and a blowout loss to Alabama. So having an impressive half against Villanova isn't a huge feat. Again, not to say that Temple isn't solid, just that Villanova appears to be not much different than Delaware this year (Pomeroy has Villanova at #105, Delaware at #114).

As for Minnesota, they looked solid against us, then beat Memphis and Stanford in Hawaii, and then went out and handled FSU in Tallahassee a few days later. They've blown out all of the other teams they've played, including a 72-57 win over Richmond (#64 in Pomeroy). They are undefeated against teams not in the top 5, have played a much tougher schedule than Temple, and have won their games more convincingly than Temple. Pomeroy has Minnesota at #10, Temple at #47. That's probably too high on Minnesota (I'd guess more around #15-20), but it's probably about right on Temple.

This is a game that may well be close, but it's a game we absolutely should win based on both teams' talent and resumes so far.

[-jk]

Does anyone one know which basket will be Duke's?

Um, which half?

-jk

[Olympic Fan]

Agree that watching them last night, Temple appeared impressive in the second half.

But keep in mind that they have not played -- according to Pomeroy -- a top 100 opponent yet. If you check RPI, they have played two top 100 teams -- Wagner and Delaware. Interesting that their top-rated RPI victim is the same Delaware team Duke beat by 38 (and it would have been 48 if they hadn't spent most of the last four minutes trying to get Zafiroski a basket). Temple beat them 80-75 at home.

Now, I understand that there's not a transitive property to basketball scores, bu I still think this is a game that Duke shoud win. Nice that it's in the Meadowlands ... and coming off a 2012 loss to them, I feel pretty certain that Duke won't take this game lightly.

FWIW, Pomeroy upped Temple's chances of winning from 15 percent to 18 percent after they beat Villanova.

PS: I don't see this as a "trap" game in the sense that it's the only game over a 19-day period. Delaware was a classic trap -- a supposedly easy opponent just days after Duke played a killer streak of four brutal opponents in the previous eight days.

[juise]

Um, which half?

-jk

Good point, but perhaps Gus really meant to ask which end the Duke bench will be located.

[gus]

Um, which half?

-jk

The second one of course.

[roywhite]

In honor of Duke playing a Philadelphia team, here's a Gene Banks piece.

The Total Package (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/11/gene-banks-total-package/2/)


From the time he entered high school, Gene Banks was the biggest story in West Philly.



Had the good fortune to watch Gene and the undefeated West Philadelphia Speedboys (also featuring Clarence "Eggy" Tillman) take on the previously unbeaten Baltimore Dunbar Poets. It was after Gene had declared for Duke (front page news for the Philadelphia Inquirer) and Bill Foster had fought off poaching attempts from Digger Phelps and others. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and Gene did not disappoint.

West Philly prevailed that day, and was generally recognized as the #1 high school team in the country in 1977.

Gene was a big part of a magic ride for Duke in 1978 in reaching the National Championship game, beating Philadelphia area teams Penn and Villanova on the way.

[azzefkram]

Except for the fact they beat many of our same guys last year, this is a perfect trap game for us. Coming in undefeated, A week of rust, a road game, they have big guards. We will get a good look at how tough our team is in this game.

Any input on whether Seth will play, MP3?

Am I the only one never worried about a "trap" game? I just can't picture a K led team falling into one.

[CDu]

Am I the only one never worried about a "trap" game? I just can't picture a K led team falling into one.

I think it can happen, even to a Coach K-led team. Heck, we've had them occur in the past. I just don't think of this as an example of a trap game. For one, Temple is the best team we're going to face until January, and we don't even play another team for 10 days after this anyway. So it's not like we're looking ahead on the schedule. For another, we've had a full week to get focused on Temple, so any hangover from previous games are long gone.

As someone mentioned before, the Delaware game was a better example of a potential trap game: game against a lesser-name opponent immediately following a huge stretch of games against good teams. The potential for a let-down was then, not now. Now, the team will be itching to get back on the court after a relatively long layoff. Now, there's a chance we're too amped up and/or rusty, and that our play suffers as a result. But that's not really the same thing as a trap game.

All that said, I'd still expect us to come out and win comfortably. Not blowout fashion, but perhaps in the 10-15 point range.

[loran16]

For one, Temple is weak on offense at the one area we're weak on Defense - they don't offense rebound well at all - 263rd in the Country in fact. So they won't be taking advantage of us in that way. They're above average but not elite in all other offensive and defensive factors (eFG%, TO%, Free Throw Rate, and Defensive Rebound %), which doesn't make them an easy out, but it means they don't necessarily pose a matchup problem style wise.

Player wise, only 3 of the seniors get a vast majority of the minutes, while 4 other players seem to rotate in to the lineup frequently. 6'6" Scootie Randall is their second most frequent shooter, and could be an interesting matchup problem (He's listed as guard-forward, so figure Sulaimon will be guarding him). He's been efficient but not super efficient this year, and has not been a good 3 point shooter this year, but takes a lot of them (15-45). He's a solid defensive rebounder for his position, but otherwise, does nothing else especially well.

6'4" Khalif Wyatt is their most frequent shooter and could be an even bigger matchup problem since he sort of plays point guard, and he's big for a point guard (6'4" 210 pounds). He's got a great assist rate and doesn't turn the ball over much, and can shoot the 2 well. Again, like Randall however, he's not a great 3 point shooter though he takes a whole bunch of them. Like Randall, preventing penetration and forcing him to shoot it from deep is probably the best strategy.

Both Wyatt and Randall use up more possession/shots than any Duke player btw, so this team isn't really that balanced on O. Stopping these two guys is key, just like Delaware. A few other guys are relevant though.

Senior Hollis Jefferson is the only other starter who uses up most of Temple's minutes, but he's not an offensive threat. He seems to be a defensive threat though - with decent steal and block %s - reminding me perhaps of a Dave McClure type.

Will Cummings, Anthony Lee, Jake O'Brien and TJ DiLeo all play around equal time - less than the other 3 guys - but a significant amount of minutes. Anthony Lee is the most dangerous of these guys and basically he's their center - or at least the #s make it seem like that. He's only 6'9, but he gobbles up an impressive # of defensive rebounds, and has a good 2pt % (Doesn't shoot 3s). Mason will be guarding him and shutting him down should deprive Temple of any inside presence whatsoever.

---------------------
Duke SHOULD win, but Temple is not a joke - even if they're not up to snuff with the Louisville or OSU. While they don't have inside size, their outside size could make things tricky.

[Kedsy]

Senior Hollis Jefferson is the only other starter who uses up most of Temple's minutes, but he's not an offensive threat. He seems to be a defensive threat though - with decent steal and block %s - reminding me perhaps of a Dave McClure type.

Hollis-Jefferson scored 17 points on 7 for 10 shooting against Duke last season. So at least against us he was an offensive threat. He also had 6 rebounds and 4 assists and played strong defense (pretty much shut Ryan Kelly down, despite a four or five inch height disadvantage); one could argue he was the major reason they beat us. He more or less plays PF for them, so he'll probably match up with Ryan again. To me that will be a key matchup in deciding the game.

[azzefkram]

... we're looking ahead on the schedule.

This is my definition of a trap game and something I can't imagine a K-led team doing. Has Duke under-performed against inferior opponents in the past? Sure but I'd be surprised if it was lack of preparation or looking ahead to another opponent was the reason for the under-performance. I have my issues with K's coaching but lack of preparation or not focusing on the opponent at hand are not among them. He may have 935 more wins than me but I have never lost a game I've coached. :)

[CDu]

Player wise, only 3 of the seniors get a vast majority of the minutes, while 4 other players seem to rotate in to the lineup frequently. 6'6" Scootie Randall is their second most frequent shooter, and could be an interesting matchup problem (He's listed as guard-forward, so figure Sulaimon will be guarding him). He's been efficient but not super efficient this year, and has not been a good 3 point shooter this year, but takes a lot of them (15-45). He's a solid defensive rebounder for his position, but otherwise, does nothing else especially well.

6'4" Khalif Wyatt is their most frequent shooter and could be an even bigger matchup problem since he sort of plays point guard, and he's big for a point guard (6'4" 210 pounds). He's got a great assist rate and doesn't turn the ball over much, and can shoot the 2 well. Again, like Randall however, he's not a great 3 point shooter though he takes a whole bunch of them. Like Randall, preventing penetration and forcing him to shoot it from deep is probably the best strategy.

Note that while Wyatt and Randall have not shot the 3 well this year, they have put up good numbers from 3 in previous years. Wyatt shot 42% from 3 as a sophomore and 38% last year from deep. Randall shot 42% as a sophomore and 37% as a junior. And both were fairly high-volume shooters before, so I'm not sure exactly why their numbers are down. I just wanted to make clear that these guys ARE capable of shooting really well.


Senior Hollis Jefferson is the only other starter who uses up most of Temple's minutes, but he's not an offensive threat. He seems to be a defensive threat though - with decent steal and block %s - reminding me perhaps of a Dave McClure type.

Hollis-Jefferson is more skilled than McClure offensively. He averaged 9ppg last year and is not far off of that this year. He is a definite option #4 offensively, but that doesn't mean he can't hurt you. As Kedsy noted, he scored 17 against us last year.

You're right that stopping/slowing Wyatt and Randall will be the key. That, and we can't let Lee/Hollis-Jefferson/O'Brien beat us while we're focused on the big two.

[TruBlu]

This is my definition of a trap game and something I can't imagine a K-led team doing. Has Duke under-performed against inferior opponents in the past? Sure but I'd be surprised if it was lack of preparation or looking ahead to another opponent was the reason for the under-performance. I have my issues with K's coaching but lack of preparation or not focusing on the opponent at hand are not among them. He may have 935 more wins than me but I have never lost a game I've coached. :)

I have an even better record. In addition to no losses as a coach, I have no losses as a player.

[hurleyfor3]

Time to bring this out again:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2433&d=1330362896

[Indoor66]

Does anyone one know which basket will be Duke's?

Both of them - depends on the half. ;)

[loran16]

Note that while Wyatt and Randall have not shot the 3 well this year, they have put up good numbers from 3 in previous years. Wyatt shot 42% from 3 as a sophomore and 38% last year from deep. Randall shot 42% as a sophomore and 37% as a junior. And both were fairly high-volume shooters before, so I'm not sure exactly why their numbers are down. I just wanted to make clear that these guys ARE capable of shooting really well.


Eh, neither were close to as high volume as they are this year, for obvious reasons. Randall is being used on 24.5% of possessions and is taking 26% of his team's shots while he's on the floor this year. Last year those #s were way lower: 15.8% and 19%. Essentially, Randall's being asked to do way more with the ball this year (you can see this with his assist rate) and to not just be a shooter, and that's a good likely reason for his decreased efficiency. Wyatt's usage is a little closer to last year's (24.8% possession rate last year, 23.5% shot rate; 27.6% possession rate this year 28.7% shot rate this year) but it's still markedly up and again, like Fernandez, he's being asked to do a lot more this year (basically to act as the point guard).

In addition, Randall shot 42% in a low sample size his sophomore year which shouldn't really count.

I agree that they can hurt you if they're open - but their current roles make them far worse at shooting 3s than they were before, and forcing the 3 is still a solid strategy.




Hollis-Jefferson is more skilled than McClure offensively. He averaged 9ppg last year and is not far off of that this year. He is a definite option #4 offensively, but that doesn't mean he can't hurt you. As Kedsy noted, he scored 17 against us last year.

You're right that stopping/slowing Wyatt and Randall will be the key. That, and we can't let Lee/Hollis-Jefferson/O'Brien beat us while we're focused on the big two.

Well this is always the case with role players. Thing is, Hollis Jefferson's 2 pt shooting (which is all he shoots) last year was likely an outlier looking at his previous years and this one, and may at best have simply been the result of playing with Fernandez.

Again, the other guys can always beat you - and it may happen if we're unlucky. But you aim to take out the stars with your strategy, while still playing solid on the other guys.

[Olympic Fan]

In honor of Duke playing a Philadelphia team, here's a Gene Banks piece.

The Total Package (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2012/11/gene-banks-total-package/2/)



Had the good fortune to watch Gene and the undefeated West Philadelphia Speedboys (also featuring Clarence "Eggy" Tillman) take on the previously unbeaten Baltimore Dunbar Poets. It was after Gene had declared for Duke (front page news for the Philadelphia Inquirer) and Bill Foster had fought off poaching attempts from Digger Phelps and others. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and Gene did not disappoint.

West Philly prevailed that day, and was generally recognized as the #1 high school team in the country in 1977.

Gene was a big part of a magic ride for Duke in 1978 in reaching the National Championship game, beating Philadelphia area teams Penn and Villanova on the way.

Duke has an excellent 49-20 record against Philly's Big Five Schools. But there is a clear dividing line in 1977 when Gene Banks -- at the time touted as the greatest Philly schoolboy since Wilt -- arrived at Duke.

Before Banks, Duke was 18-17 against the Big Five -- 3-6 vs. Penn, 7-8 vs. Temple, 3-3 vs. Villanona; 0-0 vs. LaSalle; 5-0 vs. St. Joseph's.

When Gene was at Duke, the Devils were 9-0 against the Big Five -- interesting that in the East Regionals in 1978, Banks' freshman year, Duke beat Penn and Villanova to get to the Final Four.

The point is that since Banks arrived at Duke, the Devils have been 31-3 against the Big Five -- 7-0 vs. Penn, 11-2 vs. Temple, 4-1 vs. Villanova; 4-0 vs. LaSalle; 5-0 vs. St. Joe's.


I've always considered that part of Gene's legacy at Duke.

[CDu]

I've always considered that part of Gene's legacy at Duke.

Well, that and we got the greatest coach since at least John Wooden a couple of years later...

[Bob Green]

I've always considered that part of Gene's legacy at Duke.


Well, that and we got the greatest coach since at least John Wooden a couple of years later...

Not to take anything away from Coach K, but the impact Gene Banks had on the turn around of Duke basketball cannot be overstated. When I found out he picked Duke, I turned backflips in my driveway. It was a monumental decision! His performance over the next four seasons did not disappoint.

[CDu]

Not to take anything away from Coach K, but the impact Gene Banks had on the turn around of Duke basketball cannot be overstated. When I found out he picked Duke, I turned backflips in my driveway. It was a monumental decision! His performance over the next four seasons did not disappoint.

I don't know that I agree completely. Don't get me wrong: Banks was a great player at Duke for sure. His arrival (along with the emergence of Gminski and Spanarkel) took the team from a .500 record the previous two seasons to 27 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins over Duke's first 3 years. But Duke went 17-13 in Banks' senior year, and then 10-17 and 11-17 the two years after he left. So his impact, while impressive, was fairly short-lived.

It wasn't until 1983-84 (with the emergence of Dawkins and Alarie and the arrival of Amaker) that Duke really took off. I'd argue that Coach K and Dawkins were really the impetus for what we see of Duke today.

Not to denigrate Banks' accomplishments. He was obviously on the short list of terrific Duke players.

[Bob Green]

I don't know that I agree completely. Don't get me wrong: Banks was a great player at Duke for sure. His arrival (along with the emergence of Gminski and Spanarkel) took the team from a .500 record the previous two seasons to 27 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins over Duke's first 3 years. But Duke went 17-13 in Banks' senior year, and then 10-17 and 11-17 the two years after he left. So his impact, while impressive, was fairly short-lived.

It wasn't until 1983-84 (with the emergence of Dawkins and Alarie and the arrival of Amaker) that Duke really took off. I'd argue that Coach K and Dawkins were really the impetus for what we see of Duke today.

Not to denigrate Banks' accomplishments. He was obviously on the short list of terrific Duke players.

But you are overlooking the impact Banks had on future recruiting efforts. The 27 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins seasons put Duke's name back on the positive side of discussions in the media. While the media back then wasn't the 24/7/365 in-your-face elephant that it is today, it still existed and still welded influence. How much more difficult would recruiting have been in Coach K's early years without the short-lived glory years of Banks, Gminski, Spanarkel and Dennard under Coach Foster?

[OldPhiKap]

Excellent article by Jim Sumner on the front page, discussing the 1988 Temple game. One of my favorites. Macon Bacon indeed!

Go Billy King!



Oh, and Bill Cosby looks great in a Duke sweatshirt.

[CDu]

But you are overlooking the impact Banks had on future recruiting efforts. The 27 wins, 22 wins, and 24 wins seasons put Duke's name back on the positive side of discussions in the media. While the media back then wasn't the 24/7/365 in-your-face elephant that it is today, it still existed and still welded influence. How much more difficult would recruiting have been in Coach K's early years without the short-lived glory years of Banks, Gminski, Spanarkel and Dennard under Coach Foster?

Who knows? Did Johnny Dawkins (and Alarie, Henderson, Bilas, and eventually Amaker) choose Duke because they had a few decent seasons in the late-70s? Or did he choose Duke because Coach K was such an excellent salesman for the program? Can you really credit Banks for that?

And even if it DID have a huge impact on recruitment, is it fair to give Banks all the credit? Surely Gminski, Spanarkel, and Dennard would deserve some of that credit, too, no?

[Jderf]

Who knows? Did Johnny Dawkins (and Alarie, Henderson, Bilas, and eventually Amaker) choose Duke because they had a few decent seasons in the late-70s? Or did he choose Duke because Coach K was such an excellent salesman for the program? Can you really credit Banks for that?

Extremely difficult to quantify, but it is not outlandish to suggest that the enhanced national profile Duke gained from the handful of successful years with Banks gave Duke (and Coach K) the basketball legitimacy they needed to even approach players like Johnny Dawkins in the first place.

But I wasn't even alive at the time, so what do I know?

[jimsumner]

Who knows? Did Johnny Dawkins (and Alarie, Henderson, Bilas, and eventually Amaker) choose Duke because they had a few decent seasons in the late-70s? Or did he choose Duke because Coach K was such an excellent salesman for the program? Can you really credit Banks for that?

Not mutually exclusive. Dawkins, Henderson and Amaker in particular grew up in ACC territory and were quite familar with the accomplishments of the late Foster years. When K was selling them on the idea that Duke could be nationally elite, they knew it could happen because they had seen it themselves.

[CDu]

Extremely difficult to quantify, but it is not outlandish to suggest that the enhanced national profile Duke gained from the handful of successful years with Banks gave Duke (and Coach K) the basketball legitimacy they needed to even approach players like Johnny Dawkins in the first place.

But I wasn't even alive at the time, so what do I know?

I am pretty sure Duke basketball had legitimacy before Banks arrived. What's not clear is whether it was more Coach K's sales pitch to recruits and their families or the few good seasons with Gminski/Banks/Spanarkel/Dennard that were the primary reasons for Dawkins/Alarie/Henderson/Bilas/Amaker to choose Duke. My gut feeling it was the former. I think it was Coach K's personality, leadership ability, and planning that won those recruits over.

[CDu]

Not mutually exclusive. Dawkins, Henderson and Amaker in particular grew up in ACC territory and were quite familar with the accomplishments of the late Foster years. When K was selling them on the idea that Duke could be nationally elite, they knew it could happen because they had seen it themselves.

Sure. But ultimately it was Coach K's awesomeness that sealed the deal. Did it help that we had a few good years at the end of the Foster run? Sure. Would I call it the reason that Duke is what it is today? Absolutely not. I'd put Coach K at the front and center as reason #1 why we got those guys. And reason #2 would be a very distant second.

[Bob Green]

I think it was Coach K's personality, leadership ability, and planning that won those recruits over.

I don't disagree with you. What I am saying is the Banks/Gminski/Spanarkel/Dennard era significantly contributed to Coach K being allowed in the front door.

[jimsumner]

I've maintained that Banks was the most important recruit in Duke history.

Not the best. But the most important.

For two reasons.

Gminski was a top-50ish recruit, a promising big man, young for his class. He and Mike O'Koren visited Duke at the same time, Carolina at the same time. Everyone agreed that Carolina came out with the better recruit.

Spanarkel was O'Koren's high-school teammate, one year ahead. The big-time schools didn't give him the time of day. He picked Duke over places like William & Mary and Holy Cross, in large part because Foster told him he could play baseball.

Banks was a different sort of recruit, ranked even with Albert King and ahead of Earvin Johnson. About as high-profile as a high-school player could be in 1977.

And at a time when Duke hadn't been in the NCAAs in 11 years, he picked Duke over Notre Dame, UCLA, North Carolina and local schools like Penn and Villanova. That was a statement.

But perhaps even more importantly, he was the first high-profile, inner-city, African American recruit to pick Duke.

If you think Jalen Rose's Uncle Tom comments carry weight now, imagine the racial perceptions that plagued Duke in 1977. The complete list of black players who had played at Duke at that time consists of C.B. Claiborne, Don Blackman, Edgar Burch, George Moses, Willie Hodge, Kenny Young and Harold Morrison. Sam May never got out of his freshman season.

Claiborne was a walk-on, Moses a juco, Blackman, Burch and Young transferred. Duke was way behind the curve and getting beat to death by schools that not only had African American players but great African American players, David Thompson, Phil Ford, Kenny Carr, Walter Davis, Len Elmore, John Lucas,Tree Rollins, Charlie Davis, Skip Brown, et. al.

Banks gave Duke a street cred it had never had before. Then he graduated on time, which forced some reconsiderations in Allen Building as to the merits of over-reliance on SATs.

It didn't happen overnight. K's second Duke team had only two black players, Vince Taylor and Doug McNeely.

Back to Dawkins, et. al. I've talked to these guys about this question. No doubt K was reason 1. None at all. But Dawkins grew up watching Gene Banks on his TV, thought he was cool and thought that Duke must have been cool as a result. That's not speculation. That's from the horse's mouth.

[hq2]

Not to take anything away from Coach K, but the impact Gene Banks had on the turn around of Duke basketball cannot be overstated. When I found out he picked Duke, I turned backflips in my driveway. It was a monumental decision! His performance over the next four seasons did not disappoint.

Never forgot it. One of the greatest moments in Duke history. Was throwing papers in my old car, and I got the Durham Sun
that day; it said "Duke Nets Cage Ace". I just about jumped through the sun roof when I read it. Started yelling and honking
the horn like crazy. After all those years of losing, I still couldn't believe it.

It's hard for people today to realize the impact that Gene Banks had on Duke basketball. In one year, (along with Spanarkel
and Gminski, who weren't too shabby either) Duke went from last in the ACC, where they had been four years in a row, to
playing for the National Championship. People today can't appreciate how truly awful the team had been for years, and how much
Carolina and State had dominated in that era.

When you look up in the rafters today and see all those jerseys and banners, all of that came about because Gene Banks came
to Duke. Without Banks it is likely that K (who at the time was an obscure coach at West Point), and more importantly
then, Ks first great recruiting class (Alarie, Dawkins, Bilas and Henderson (Jackman transferred, Williams didn't do anything))
who saw Banks on T.V. in high school, wouldn't have happened either. GENE BANKS SAVED THE PROGRAM; AND DON'T ANYONE
EVER FORGET IT!

[subzero02]

Does anyone one know which basket will be Duke's?


I am guessing both will be at some point in the game... Teams switch goals at halftime

[OldPhiKap]

"All your baskets are belong to us!!!"

[gus]

bunch of comedians here!

I thought it was fairly obvious I was referring to the goal the Devils will be shooting on in the second half. The side our bench will be.

[-jk]

bunch of comedians here!

I thought it was fairly obvious I was referring to the goal the Devils will be shooting on in the second half. The side our bench will be.

If I had to guess, it would be the one to the right as you face the scorers table.

K seems to choose it whenever possible.

-jk

[77devil]

Excellent article by Jim Sumner on the front page, discussing the 1988 Temple game. One of my favorites. Macon Bacon indeed!

Go Billy King!



Oh, and Bill Cosby looks great in a Duke sweatshirt.

The 1999 regional final against Temple in the Meadowlands wasn't too shabby either. The Maggette dunk at the end of the first half blew the roof of the house. And I sat next to Sandy Koufax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ZF_oaO1lA

19-1 at the Meadowlands-no wonder it's called Cameron North.

[dukeblue6661]

MP3 is warming up with the team!

[77devil]

MP3 is warming up with the team!

Looks plenty mobile.

[timmy c]

MP3 is warming up with the team!


Looks plenty mobile.

This is great news!

I wish I could watch the game. Anyone have a link for an internet feed, radio or tv?

[StylzCLB9]

Haven't seen it mentioned but curry isn't warming up and doesn't seem to be suited up

[StylzCLB9]

Never mind Seth just led the team out of the tunnel

[OldPhiKap]

This is great news!

I wish I could watch the game. Anyone have a link for an internet feed, radio or tv?

ESPN is streaming. Espn3.com or find a link from ESPN. WatchESPN app, too.

[gumbomoop]

If GaSo/ODU football game goes OT, those of us depending on ESPN may miss much of first half. Hope no OT.....

[timmy c]

ESPN is streaming. Espn3.com or find a link from ESPN. WatchESPN app, too.

thanks. I'm at the in-laws this afternoon -- no espn, espn3 is blacked out. :(

[uh_no]

thanks. I'm at the in-laws this afternoon -- no espn, espn3 is blacked out. :(

and we're trapped behind this awful football game.....

[HateCarolina]

and we're trapped behind this awful football game.....

This is a nightmare!!

[uh_no]

This is a nightmare!!

especially since the game is over and tey're just running out the clock....

[1 24 90]

ESPN News is covering until ESPN is ready.

[HateCarolina]

espn news is covering until espn is ready.

thank you!!

[uh_no]

ESPN News is covering until ESPN is ready.

for the 3 people who still get espnnews!

and not even the online stream has it yet :|

[sporthenry]

Mason missed some bunnies but boy the refs are letting them play. Normally anytime there is contact down low and the defender isn't straight up, it is an automatic call.

[slower]

We're getting absolutely HAMMERED inside. Mason's gonna be living at the free-throw line today.

We'll need to value every possession. Definitely getting out-hustled so far.

[sporthenry]

Have to pick up the defense. Temple's strong, big guards will always give us difficulties.

That dime by Sheed was a thing of beauty.

[sporthenry]

Amile fired up to play his hometown school near his hometown. Would be very nice to see him develop a competent offensive game this year so they can have him D-up against the Deshaun Thomas' of the world.

Nice to see Cook teaching Amile and Mason might become the example of a kid thinking about staying in school. 19/11 only averaged by Sampson and Duncan.

[slower]

Mason's getting punked - come on, guys, get your heads in the game! Psychological advantage to Temple right now. Looks like they'll get another well-deserved blistering at halftime.

[arnie]

Mason's getting punked - come on, guys, get your heads in the game! Psychological advantage to Temple right now. Looks like they'll get another well-deserved blistering at halftime.

Is there a bigger loser in sports than Thug Greenburg. Will not talk about Duke without complaining about fouls. There's a reason VPI is undefeated - they have coach.

[-bdbd]

Team playing well overall. We're shooting about 16 FT's to their ZERO, hard not to expect some complaints about fouls.


Anybody else think this feels like a second round NCAAT opponent? Temple will get into foul trouble in the second half. Want to see Mason more aggressive though.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If anyone's still looking for a stream like me, this one works, but you have to close ton of pop ups...

http://www.thefirstrow.eu/watch/157839/1/watch-temple-vs-2-duke.html

[sporthenry]

Team playing well overall. We're shooting about 16 FT's to their ZERO, hard not to expect some complaints about fouls.


Anybody else think this feels like a second round NCAAT opponent? Temple will get into foul trouble in the second half. Want to see Mason more aggressive though.

Temple is an opponent you'll see either on day 2 or possibly for your 3rd game . They just have a few too many holes that a team like this Duke team will take advantage of. That Dileo kid is useless on their team.

As far as fouls, I thought Temple got away with a lot to start. Haven't really seen that many controversial calls. Duke kinda let Temple get back in it towards the end of the half, have to keep them down.

[Gthoma2a]

We are up, but we need to avoid getting sloppy. I have no doubt that we will win this game, as I am sure most of our guys feel, but we don't need to lower our play accordingly.

[lotusland]

If anyone's still looking for a stream like me, this one works, but you have to close ton of pop ups...

http://www.thefirstrow.eu/watch/157839/1/watch-temple-vs-2-duke.html

Score?

Also anyone got a link for live stats?

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Poor start to the 2nd half. Come on guys. Let's Go Duke!!!!!

[slower]

but we need to avoid getting sloppy.

too late

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You guys are pretty tough. We're up 14 against a solid team away from home, I like the movement on our offense (slashes by Cook, pump fakes and drives by Kelly) and forcing Temple into 15 foot jumpers. Seems like a good recipe for us if you ask me.

Go Duke!

[trinity79]

I liked our passing in the first half. (That one by Amile to Mason was a thing of beauty.) We seem to be dribbling around more and just pounding the ball in isolation moves in the second. I don't think that's going to be our route to success this season, although Cook and Sulaimon (and Seth when he's healthy) can certainly thrive playing that sort of game.

Well it looks like Coach K read my mind and reminded our guys of this fact already. LOL, nevermind. We look pretty daggone good as Ol' Roy might say.

[slower]

How many shots at the rim have we missed? Look, I know we're up by 20-ish, but it shouldn't be that close. You think K is happy with this effort?

[trinity79]

Playing Temple is always a PITA. But as I recall they didn't let up on us last year when they were beating our brains out. I'm not sayin', just sayin'. Go DUKE!

[dukebballcamper90-91]

No Josh today?

[Son of Mojo]

Mason has looked off today with the exception of two FGs in the first half and that behind the back pass. I'd love to know how Temple got away with shoving Cook to the court and how that was a block on Curry.......I don't like how Temple gets on these mini runs. Need to step on their collective throat and not let up for the remainder of the game.

[uh_no]

How many shots at the rim have we missed? Look, I know we're up by 20-ish, but it shouldn't be that close. You think K is happy with this effort?

probably....sometimes you miss shots....it happens...it's not a sign of effort....

defense is, though...and seeing as we've played great D all game, I think he's gotta be happy.


not to mention temple is kenpom #46.....so anything >10 pt victory is reasonable...

[Duvall]

How many shots at the rim have we missed? Look, I know we're up by 20-ish, but it shouldn't be that close. You think K is happy with this effort?

Er, yes?

[uh_no]

Is there a bigger loser in sports than Thug Greenburg. Will not talk about Duke without complaining about fouls. There's a reason VPI is undefeated - they have coach.

take it easy....his post game, he was extremely complimentary of duke....

[arnie]

take it easy....his post game, he was extremely complimentary of duke....

Yea, somebody at ESPN got to him after his initial comments.

[slower]

Er, yes?

Well, at the time I posted, things didn't look so rosy... :p

I know, I know - but I'm a perfectionist. This team is really good - today might have been a loss in previous years.

I think we all recognize the potential of this year's team.