Nation's top freshmen

[JasonEvans]

Jeff Borzello of CBS Sportsline has a list (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21262647/freshman-of-the-year-xaviers-semaj-christon-makes-his-debut) of the nation's top freshmen. He ranks the top 5, but reveals who the next 4 on his list were. While he names some other freshmen who are making an impact, he only ranks the top 9.


1. Marcus Smart - Okie State
2. Anthony Bennett- UNLV
3. Archie Goodwin - Ky
4. Jahil Carson - Ariz St
5. Semaj Christon - Xavier
6. Nerlens Noel - Ky
7. Rasheed Suliamon - Duke
8. Nik Staukas - Michigan
9. Ben McLemore - Kansas

Just for kicks... lets see where they top 9 rated in the RSCI recruiting rankings.


9, 6, 10, 30**, 49, 1, 12, 78, 41**

** - 2011 class, redshirted last year

-Jason "just proves that recruiting rankings ain't all that ;) " Evans

[moonpie23]

something MUST be wrong with that list.....i don't see any UNC players...

[FerryFor50]

Jeff Borzello of CBS Sportsline has a list (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21262647/freshman-of-the-year-xaviers-semaj-christon-makes-his-debut) of the nation's top freshmen. He ranks the top 5, but reveals who the next 4 on his list were. While he names some other freshmen who are making an impact, he only ranks the top 9.


1. Marcus Smart - Okie State
2. Anthony Bennett- UNLV
3. Archie Goodwin - Ky
4. Jahil Carson - Ariz St
5. Semaj Christon - Xavier
6. Nerlens Noel - Ky
7. Rasheed Suliamon - Duke
8. Nik Staukas - Michigan
9. Ben McLemore - Kansas

Just for kicks... lets see where they top 9 rated in the RSCI recruiting rankings.


9, 6, 10, 30**, 49, 1, 12, 78, 41**

** - 2011 class, redshirted last year

-Jason "just proves that recruiting rankings ain't all that ;) " Evans

Man, how did we miss on Nik Staukas? Too athletic?

[elvis14]

Man, how did we miss on Nik Staukas? Too athletic?

I don't think we were too athletic for Nik Staukas to consider us.

[TruBlu]

something MUST be wrong with that list.....i don't see any UNC players...

Borzello must have failed to ask Jay Bilas for input. If UNC's freshmen only hit one more 3 a game . . .

[Kedsy]

Jeff Borzello of CBS Sportsline has a list (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/21262647/freshman-of-the-year-xaviers-semaj-christon-makes-his-debut) of the nation's top freshmen. He ranks the top 5, but reveals who the next 4 on his list were. While he names some other freshmen who are making an impact, he only ranks the top 9.


1. Marcus Smart - Okie State
2. Anthony Bennett- UNLV
3. Archie Goodwin - Ky
4. Jahil Carson - Ariz St
5. Semaj Christon - Xavier
6. Nerlens Noel - Ky
7. Rasheed Suliamon - Duke
8. Nik Staukas - Michigan
9. Ben McLemore - Kansas

Just for kicks... lets see where they top 9 rated in the RSCI recruiting rankings.


9, 6, 10, 30**, 49, 1, 12, 78, 41**

** - 2011 class, redshirted last year

-Jason "just proves that recruiting rankings ain't all that ;) " Evans

Well, I think redshirts are in a different category, since they've had an extra year to develop their bodies and learn their team's system. And taking those two out of the equation, five of the remaining seven are top 12 recruits. Add in that Shabazz didn't get to play his teams first few games and that 11 of the top 12 recruits are starting for their programs (and the one who isn't was #11 and has started a couple games for Arizona), and to me it seems like the rankings are doing pretty well.

[scottdude8]

I don't think we were too athletic for Nik Staukas to consider us.

Stuaskas is the man. I've seen him play in person a few times (I'm a current U of M grad student), and he would've been great as a Blue Devil. 6-6 with a deadeye shot, but more importantly he can create for himself off the dribble. He's solid defensively and has a good head for the game as well.

As for why we missed out on him, he's actually from Missasauga, Ontario (just outside Toronto). Somewhat easier for Michigan to scout Canadians than it is for Duke to, I would imagine...

[BigWayne]

Stuaskas is the man. I've seen him play in person a few times (I'm a current U of M grad student), and he would've been great as a Blue Devil. 6-6 with a deadeye shot, but more importantly he can create for himself off the dribble. He's solid defensively and has a good head for the game as well.

As for why we missed out on him, he's actually from Missasauga, Ontario (just outside Toronto). Somewhat easier for Michigan to scout Canadians than it is for Duke to, I would imagine...

I believe one of Coach K's earliest recruits was from near there on the Ontario side of the border, though I think he settled much farther south after college.

[Kedsy]

I believe one of Coach K's earliest recruits was from near there on the Ontario side of the border, though I think he settled much farther south after college.

Dan Meagher was from St. Catherines, Ontario, near Niagara Falls, not far from Buffalo (NY) on the side of Lake Ontario near the US (across the lake from Toronto and Missasauga).

[CameronBornAndBred]

What impact exactly is Nerlens Noel making? Would Kentucky be losing even more games if he weren't on the team? (Point being I sure wouldn't include him in my top 10, his stats aren't thrilling)

[CDu]

What impact exactly is Nerlens Noel making? Would Kentucky be losing even more games if he weren't on the team? (Point being I sure wouldn't include him in my top 10, his stats aren't thrilling)

11.6 points, 9.0 rebounds, 3.1 blocks, 2.9 steals, and 2.1 assists per game are pretty freaking good stats if you ask me. That's better than the production that a junior Mason Plumlee provided for us last year.

Noel is not nearly as good as Anthony Davis. That does not mean he isn't still one of the best freshmen in the country this year. I think it would be very difficult to find 10 other major college basketball freshmen putting up better numbers than his.

[gam7]

Stuaskas is the man. I've seen him play in person a few times (I'm a current U of M grad student), and he would've been great as a Blue Devil. 6-6 with a deadeye shot, but more importantly he can create for himself off the dribble. He's solid defensively and has a good head for the game as well.

As for why we missed out on him, he's actually from Missasauga, Ontario (just outside Toronto). Somewhat easier for Michigan to scout Canadians than it is for Duke to, I would imagine...

Stauskas may be Canadian but he went to the same high school as Alex Murphy, so the staff knew about him. Also, hate to bring this up, but a year or two ago, there was a random person who came to these boards (I think most would call him a troll) and was ripping Murphy and saying that the guy on that high school team who was better was some underrated (or perhaps not rated) guy named Stauskas. The person had seen St. Marks play numerous times (he may actually have been a student there) and said Stauskas was really good and consistently the best player on the team (a team that included Caleb Tar-something-ski at Arizona). Even though that poster had no tact, turned out to have been right about Stauskas.

[CameronBornAndBred]

11.6 points, 9.0 rebounds, 3.1 blocks, 2.9 steals, and 2.1 assists per game are pretty freaking good stats if you ask me. That's better than the production that a junior Mason Plumlee provided for us last year.

Noel is not nearly as good as Anthony Davis. That does not mean he isn't still one of the best freshmen in the country this year. I think it would be very difficult to find 10 other major college basketball freshmen putting up better numbers than his.
That's a fair perspective, thanks. With 2 guys in the top 6, it is amazing they aren't doing anything as a team. And maybe that's what I mean more by "impact".

[CDu]

That's a fair perspective, thanks. With 2 guys in the top 6, it is amazing they aren't doing anything as a team. And maybe that's what I mean more by "impact".

Yeah, they aren't getting much production outside of their three freshmen. That's probably because they are forced to play with a fourth freshman, a sophomore who is probably like sophomore year Ryan Kelly, a PG who probably wouldn't crack the rotation at Duke, and a backup PG who didn't crack the rotation at NC State. Most teams aren't so completely reliant on inexperienced players.

And it's not like Kentucky is terrible. They played us pretty close without their PG, and all three of their losses are to teams in Pomeroy's top-30. Those losses were all to more experienced teams (one of them was their first true road game), which shouldn't be completely shocking for such a young team.

Do I think UK will threaten for a title this year? Probably not, unless the PG play gets MUCH better. But I do think they're a threat to make the Sweet 16. And I'm not sure I'd be thrilled to see them in the second weekend of the tourney, either.

[Newton_14]

What impact exactly is Nerlens Noel making? Would Kentucky be losing even more games if he weren't on the team? (Point being I sure wouldn't include him in my top 10, his stats aren't thrilling)


11.6 points, 9.0 rebounds, 3.1 blocks, 2.9 steals, and 2.1 assists per game are pretty freaking good stats if you ask me. That's better than the production that a junior Mason Plumlee provided for us last year.

Noel is not nearly as good as Anthony Davis. That does not mean he isn't still one of the best freshmen in the country this year. I think it would be very difficult to find 10 other major college basketball freshmen putting up better numbers than his.


At this point I would have to put Rasheed above Noel. Noel's stats are good for a freshman, but I think Rasheed has out played him thus far. Noel has played ok. Certainly deserves to be on the list.

The Warren kid at NC State has played well early on too. Curious where he would rank...

[CDu]

At this point I would have to put Rasheed above Noel. Noel's stats are good for a freshman, but I think Rasheed has out played him thus far. Noel has played ok. Certainly deserves to be on the list.

That case can certainly be made.


The Warren kid at NC State has played well early on too. Curious where he would rank...

Warren is having a great start, but his numbers aren't quite as good as Poythress's numbers, and Poythress didn't crack the top 9, either. Although to be honest I'd take either of those guys over Stauskas. Along with Jordan Adams (17.8 ppg).

[Rich]

Dan Meagher was from St. Catherines, Ontario, near Niagara Falls, not far from Buffalo (NY) on the side of Lake Ontario near the US (across the lake from Toronto and Missasauga).

Did Coach K recruit Dan or inherit him? If K was there to recruit him then I suspect Dan was in K's first class. I believe Meagher graduated in 1985.

[roywhite]

Did Coach K recruit Dan or inherit him? If K was there to recruit him then I suspect Dan was in K's first class. I believe Meagher graduated in 1985.

You're on the right track there, Rich. Meagher did graduate in 1985; **edit my original post; believe he was recruited by K and was a freshman in K's second season.

Meagher's stats from goduke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=254)

Never averaged in double figures, but he was a rugged defender and rebounder.

By the way, believe I saw one of Tom Sheehey's lineage in a game recently...his nephew maybe? Can someone supply his team and verify the connection? We should invite Danny back to uhhhh...clear his throat and welcome the kid properly.

[Kedsy]

You're on the right track there, Rich. Meagher did graduate in 1985; **edit my original post; believe he was recruited by K and was a freshman in K's second season.

Meagher's stats from goduke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=254)



Your edit is correct, Roy. Meagher was a freshman in 1981-82, which was K's 2nd year. He would've had to have been a K recruit.

(It also happened to be my senior year, which is why I remember it.)

[Newton_14]

You're on the right track there, Rich. Meagher did graduate in 1985; **edit my original post; believe he was recruited by K and was a freshman in K's second season.

Meagher's stats from goduke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=254)

Never averaged in double figures, but he was a rugged defender and rebounder.

By the way, believe I saw one of Tom Sheehey's lineage in a game recently...his nephew maybe? Can someone supply his team and verify the connection? We should invite Danny back to uhhhh...clear his throat and welcome the kid properly.

The Sheehey kid plays for Indiana and you saw him torch the heels in the ACC/Big 10 Challenge for like 20 points off the bench. I believe I heard the announcers say he is the nephew of Tom Sheehey. Not 100% sure though.

[roywhite]

The Sheehey kid plays for Indiana and you saw him torch the heels in the ACC/Big 10 Challenge for like 20 points off the bench. I believe I heard the announcers say he is the nephew of Tom Sheehey. Not 100% sure though.

Nice catch, Newton! You know your hoops -- have you considered being a moderator? :)

Here's his profile from an IU site:
Will Sheehey (http://www.iuhoosiers.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/sheehey_will00.html)


father played basketball for Syracuse and St. Bonaventure ... his uncle, Tom Sheehey, was a standout at Virginia and was drafted by the Boston Celtics and went on to play professionally in Spain

At the family get-togethers.....Uncle Tom, so what exactly happened in that game against Duke? And what did the Crazies say?

[OldPhiKap]

Dan Meagher was from St. Catherines, Ontario, near Niagara Falls, not far from Buffalo (NY) on the side of Lake Ontario near the US (across the lake from Toronto and Missasauga).

Duke started a cable late night show asked on the original NBC Letterman Show on Duke Cable 13. It was only available on campus, very cutting edge for 1985. I went down to a taping of the show and remember Dan being on the show after he had played his last game. His imitation of K was both hilarious and R-Rated. Anyone remember that? Happy to pm it to anyone but cannot post it here.

Needless to say, it also involved Tom Sheehey.

[-jk]

Duke started a cable late night show asked on the original NBC Letterman Show on Duke Cable 13. It was only available on campus, very cutting edge for 1985. I went down to a taping of the show and remember Dan being on the show after he had played his last game. His imitation of K was both hilarious and R-Rated. Anyone remember that? Happy to pm it to anyone but cannot post it here.

Needless to say, it also involved Tom Sheehey.

It was classic, and I think Danny might have had just a bit to drink. If you have a recording, I'd love to see it again!

-jk

[JNort]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8826886/larry-brown-return-college-look-all-latest-country-college-basketball


Sheed is still locked in at 7th!

1. Anthony Bennett, UNLV -- 47 (4)
2. Ben McLemore, Kansas -- 44 (1)
3. Marcus Smart, Oklahoma State -- 34
4. Shabazz Muhammad, UCLA -- 33
5. Jordan Adams, UCLA -- 17
6. Isaiah Austin, Baylor -- 16
7. Rasheed Sulaimon, Duke -- 13
8. Jahii Carson, Arizona State -- 12
9. Glenn Robinson III, Michigan -- 11
10. Archie Goodwin, Kentucky -- 10

[crimsonandblue]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8826886/larry-brown-return-college-look-all-latest-country-college-basketball


Sheed is still locked in at 7th!

1. Anthony Bennett, UNLV -- 47 (4)
2. Ben McLemore, Kansas -- 44 (1)
3. Marcus Smart, Oklahoma State -- 34
4. Shabazz Muhammad, UCLA -- 33
5. Jordan Adams, UCLA -- 17
6. Isaiah Austin, Baylor -- 16
7. Rasheed Sulaimon, Duke -- 13
8. Jahii Carson, Arizona State -- 12
9. Glenn Robinson III, Michigan -- 11
10. Archie Goodwin, Kentucky -- 10

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xGfrS8FA1Kc/UOHO1kETJII/AAAAAAAAoTA/11aH0tvNEWI/s1600/FGKansasDance.gif

This list has Ben approved.

[mr. synellinden]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xGfrS8FA1Kc/UOHO1kETJII/AAAAAAAAoTA/11aH0tvNEWI/s1600/FGKansasDance.gif

This list has Ben approved.

After tonight's game, he might move up a spot. He also may have put himself into the NPOY and All-American discussion.

[scottdude8]

I'm surprised Glenn Robinson III didn't make this list along with Stauskass for the Wolverines. Kid is already a lottery pick, and if he stays for a second year I'd be shocked if he's not a top-5 pick. He's freaky athletic, 6-foot-8, and can bury the three.

[DukeWarhead]

After tonight's game, he might move up a spot. He also may have put himself into the NPOY and All-American discussion.

Anybody know their strength of sched? Can't believe it's all that high. Sure, they beat OSU. Okay, McClemore is very good. But NPOY? No. Not with KU playing in the Big12, which I'm sorry is incredibly weak this year. Well, maybe he can be in the discussion, but that would include at least 10-15 other players, most of them that will face stiffer competition throughout the year.

I just like poo-pooing anything KU. I used to like them. Those days are gone; done in by the likes of obnoxious Duke hate from KU fans and a string of thoroughly dislikable players (Giddens, Sherron Collins, Morris Twins, Tyshon Taylor..)

[sporthenry]

After tonight's game, he might move up a spot. He also may have put himself into the NPOY and All-American discussion.

Robinson did make the list. Although I will agree that I'm surprised he isn't higher.

Another notable omission seems to be Poythress. I haven't watched too much of UK lately but he seemed to be their motor while Goodwin got more touches. Also kinda weird to see two UCLA players on the list when they were so bad. But that list is still very impressive.

[Des Esseintes]

Anybody know their strength of sched? Can't believe it's all that high. Sure, they beat OSU. Okay, McClemore is very good. But NPOY? No. Not with KU playing in the Big12, which I'm sorry is incredibly weak this year. Well, maybe he can be in the discussion, but that would include at least 10-15 other players, most of them that will face stiffer competition throughout the year.

I just like poo-pooing anything KU. I used to like them. Those days are gone; done in by the likes of obnoxious Duke hate from KU fans and a string of thoroughly dislikable players (Giddens, Sherron Collins, Morris Twins, Tyshon Taylor..)

According to kenpom, they've played the 44th-toughest schedule in the country so far. For perspective, only Duke's among the top ten is higher. Nor is the ACC much stronger than the Big 12 this year. I'm not a fan, but KU and its players deserve whatever credit they've received. And if there is a coach in college basketball in the same zip code of ability as K, it is Self. Amazing consistency that dude has been able to achieve.

[JNort]

According to kenpom, they've played the 44th-toughest schedule in the country so far. For perspective, only Duke's among the top ten is higher. Nor is the ACC much stronger than the Big 12 this year. I'm not a fan, but KU and its players deserve whatever credit they've received. And if there is a coach in college basketball in the same zip code of ability as K, it is Self. Amazing consistency that dude has been able to achieve.

Id add Brad Stevens and Tom Izzo to that list and both over Self.

[Des Esseintes]

Id add Brad Stevens and Tom Izzo to that list and both over Self.

Izzo--I can certainly see the argument. But Stevens? I kind of feel he's become an object of fetish for some on the board. Granted, he's had two magical runs to the finals. No small achievement, and I don't mean to diminish it. But Billy Donovan won back-to-back titles, and I don't hear encomiums sung to him on a daily basis. Look, I think Stevens is wonderful and may well develop into one of the greats, provided he keeps his nose clean between now and Senior Prom. For now, though, he's a head coach in his sixth season, whose last team tied for third in the Horizon League and played its postseason ball in the CBI. His team this year, despite the epic victory over Indiana, sits at #56 in kenpom. Self, on the other hand--can anyone even remember the last time KU didn't win the Big 12? KU pulls one seeds as often as Duke does. The consistency to regularly field elite teams and never field bad ones is insanely hard to maintain. Roy at UNC has had doldrums. Izzo at MSU is often sub-elite, if always decent. Pitino's teams fluctuate wildly year to year. Cal at UK has only had a few years at the top. Duke and KU are there every season. To put it another way, Self is what Stevens becomes if everything goes right: if Stevens jumps to a high major, proves he can recruit with the best, gets to the mountaintop, and stays frosty once he gets there. The last part is perhaps the toughest of all. Ask Gary Williams and Ben Howland.

[Kedsy]

Izzo--I can certainly see the argument. But Stevens? I kind of feel he's become an object of fetish for some on the board. Granted, he's had two magical runs to the finals. No small achievement, and I don't mean to diminish it. But Billy Donovan won back-to-back titles, and I don't hear encomiums sung to him on a daily basis.

Well, first of all, Billy Donovan has done a remarkable job at Florida. He took a football school (whose fan base didn't really care a whit about basketball) and took the team to the NCAA finals in his fourth season with the team. Then he won back-to-back titles with a team that had zero (0) top 20 recruits and only one (1) top 40 recruit (Corey Brewer was #25 in the RSCI). That's pretty amazing. As is the idea that he turned the RSCI #25 (Brewer), #47 (Horford), and #72 (Noah) into lottery picks and the #60 RSCI (Speights) into a first round pick. And he's only 47 right now. If it wasn't for the fact that his teams haven't done much since the back-to-back titles, you'd be hearing his name a lot more in these discussions.

Having said that, Donovan coached in a Big Six conference and his title teams came from a #3 seed and a #1 seed. You can't compare that to Stevens's NCAAT accomplishment. He took a mid-major team to the Finals two years in a row from a #5 seed and a #8 seed. And the second time he did it after losing his best player from the previous year. That has to be one of the most incredible achievements in college basketball history, if not the most incredible achievement.

[Dev11]

Id add Brad Stevens and Tom Izzo to that list and both over Self.

I'd disagree on Stevens. Minus Gordon Heyward, he basically took the same team on tournament runs in consecutive years and has beaten Indiana this year. His resume is not terribly long. Perhaps he will be comparable to Self (umpteen consecutive conference championships) and Izzo (many Final Fours) one day.

[Kedsy]

Minus Gordon Heyward, he basically took the same team on tournament runs in consecutive years and has beaten Indiana this year.

Oh, they only lost Gordon Hayward, is that all? After losing a lottery pick, most mid-majors don't make the NCAA tourney, much less make a back-to-back title game runs. From a 5th seed and an 8th seed. Don't act like that's a little deal.

I'm not making any comment on whether Stevens is better or worse than Self or Izzo, and I agree his resume isn't very long, but it does have some pretty remarkable accomplishments on it.

[TexHawk]

Anybody know their strength of sched? Can't believe it's all that high. Sure, they beat OSU. Okay, McClemore is very good. But NPOY? No. Not with KU playing in the Big12, which I'm sorry is incredibly weak this year. Well, maybe he can be in the discussion, but that would include at least 10-15 other players, most of them that will face stiffer competition throughout the year.

I just like poo-pooing anything KU. I used to like them. Those days are gone; done in by the likes of obnoxious Duke hate from KU fans and a string of thoroughly dislikable players (Giddens, Sherron Collins, Morris Twins, Tyshon Taylor..)

I have asked this before, and I rarely get a response, but what exactly do you not like about these players, and if there is a valid reason, why do you blame Self for them? For example...

a. Giddens was a Roy recruit. When he got in trouble at KU, Self kicked him off the team.
b. Collins was accused of crime by a woman in an elevator. Collins counter-sued. She dropped the case when she realized she was going to lose. You are free to make your own judgement on things like that, and if you already dislike KU, there isn't much I can say to dissuade you. Personally, I see a short kid who battled the odds from a tough neighborhood in Chicago, to eventually become one of the all-time greats at KU. Oh yea, he did that while trying to support two kids.

[TexHawk]

Id add Brad Stevens and Tom Izzo to that list and both over Self.

I would love to see some objective evidence for either of these guys over Self. People love throwing out Bucknell, Bradley, and Northern Iowa. Ignoring that Izzo has also been upset three times in the 1st round. Izzo has 7 conference titles in 16 years at MSU, Self has 8 in 9 at KU. He's got him on Final Fours, but that's about it.

Self's postseason record is also 3rd or 4th among the heavyweights (don't want to do the math right now). He's way behind Coach K (everybody is), I think he's slightly behind Roy, and he's neck and neck with Calipari.

[crimsonandblue]

I have asked this before, and I rarely get a response, but what exactly do you not like about these players, and if there is a valid reason, why do you blame Self for them? For example...

a. Giddens was a Roy recruit. When he got in trouble at KU, Self kicked him off the team.
b. Collins was accused of crime by a woman in an elevator. Collins counter-sued. She dropped the case when she realized she was going to lose. You are free to make your own judgement on things like that, and if you already dislike KU, there isn't much I can say to dissuade you. Personally, I see a short kid who battled the odds from a tough neighborhood in Chicago, to eventually become one of the all-time greats at KU. Oh yea, he did that while trying to support two kids.

Why worry about it? Folks are entitled to dislike whomever they want. And it doesn't even need to be rational.

KU's had some guys with attitude and swagger and who've made the occasional poor choice on and off the court. Some folks won't like them for it. It's more rational than hating everyone else's white point guard, which virtually everyone does. Wait until everyone meets Frankamp.

Anyway, back on topic, Ben McLemore had an effective FG% of 108% last night in scoring 33 points on 12 shots. That's good against any team, even teams as bad as Carolina.

[JasonEvans]

Anyway, back on topic, Ben McLemore had an effective FG% of 108% last night in scoring 33 points on 12 shots. That's good against any team, even teams as bad as Carolina.

I like the cut of your jib, sir ;)

And thanks for not reflexively getting into a fight about KU hoops. We appreciate your tolerance.

-Jason "big fan of Self and what he has done at KU... showing that Roy's success there wasn't all it was cracked up to be" Evans

[Des Esseintes]

Having said that, Donovan coached in a Big Six conference and his title teams came from a #3 seed and a #1 seed. You can't compare that to Stevens's NCAAT accomplishment. He took a mid-major team to the Finals two years in a row from a #5 seed and a #8 seed. And the second time he did it after losing his best player from the previous year. That has to be one of the most incredible achievements in college basketball history, if not the most incredible achievement.

If by incredible you mean "statistically unlikely and fun to witness," then I absolutely agree. But does having done it make Stevens automatically a better coach than Donovan or--more to my point--Bill Self? You know as well as anyone how luck-dependent tournament performance is.

[Kedsy]

If by incredible you mean "statistically unlikely and fun to witness," then I absolutely agree. But does having done it make Stevens automatically a better coach than Donovan or--more to my point--Bill Self? You know as well as anyone how luck-dependent tournament performance is.

As I said earlier, I have refrained from making any comment on whether Stevens is a better or worse coach than Self or any other coach. Personally I think the achievements of many coaches, Donovan and Self included, are minimized by many on this board, as if acknowledging them as good coaches would somehow take away from how great a coach K is.

However, I completely disagree with your assessment that Stevens's accomplishments are mere statistical anomalies. A couple NCAAT wins could be described that way, but not ten in two years. His teams almost always appear very well drilled and disciplined and they hold up very well under pressure. With a mid-major budget and a grand total of zero (0) top 100 recruits, he made two Final Fours (one after losing his best player), something no other mid-major coach has done in the 64 team era. He must be doing something right.

[Des Esseintes]

As I said earlier, I have refrained from making any comment on whether Stevens is a better or worse coach than Self or any other coach. Personally I think the achievements of many coaches, Donovan and Self included, are minimized by many on this board, as if acknowledging them as good coaches would somehow take away from how great a coach K is.

However, I completely disagree with your assessment that Stevens's accomplishments are mere statistical anomalies. A couple NCAAT wins could be described that way, but not ten in two years. His teams almost always appear very well drilled and disciplined and they hold up very well under pressure. With a mid-major budget and a grand total of zero (0) top 100 recruits, he made two Final Fours (one after losing his best player), something no other mid-major coach has done in the 64 team era. He must be doing something right.

Sure, but I wasn't at all saying Stevens's touranment runs were "mere statistical anomalies." Of course they reflect great coaching. Everything you say about the attributes of his teams is true. He may well be the future of coaching.

What I was saying is that Stevens's accomplishment tells us a limited amount about his coaching acumen, less than Self's vastly greater resume. I know you agree that when a one-seed Duke team falls in the Sweet 16, that isn't necessarily a sign that we were secretly a weak team waiting to get exposed or that Coach K did a bad job coaching in the NCAA tournament. The same is true when a team goes a long way. Almost no team is ever favored to make the Final Four out of its bracket; that doesn't automatically mean that the guys who captain their teams to the Final Four did the four best coaching jobs in the entire tournament. The Texas game when JJ scored a million points and drained everything in sight--he had some luck on his side that day. It's not running down Redick to acknowledge that fact. Nor is it waving away his accomplishment as a mere statistical anomaly. Rather, it's basic common sense. You wouldn't use that one game to prove that JJ was a historically great college shooter. You'd use his performance over four seasons to do that. Same with Stevens. A ten-game sample is meaningful, it's part of the story, but it cannot stand in for the entire rest of the story.

Or look at it this way. Anthony Davis last year turned in one of the great college defensive seasons in recent history. One could probably argue that there were aspects of his game that were unprecedented in the college ranks. Pretty much everyone expects him to be an all-world NBA player, and very soon. Now, does that put him already above Kevin Garnett in the pecking order of great basketball defenders? You'd be insane to say so. Garnett has a wall full of accomplishments--that Davis may someday match but hasn't yet, hasn't even come close to matching. It takes nothing away from Davis to say that Garnett has proven more in his career so far.

I know you aren't taking a position on Self vs. Stevens, but I don't then see why you're arguing with me. I'm not denigrating Stevens. I'm pointing out that a comparison of the two resumes, at this juncture, is imprudent if not laughable.

[Kedsy]

If by incredible you mean "statistically unlikely and fun to witness," then I absolutely agree.


Sure, but I wasn't at all saying Stevens's touranment runs were "mere statistical anomalies."

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted the first quote above. I agree Stevens needs a longer resume before we can say he's a better coach than Self. Although I suppose there's also possibly a difference between a "great coach" and a "coach with a great resume."

[Des Esseintes]

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted the first quote above. I agree Stevens needs a longer resume before we can say he's a better coach than Self. Although I suppose there's also possibly a difference between a "great coach" and a "coach with a great resume."

I fully agree. From a distance, it sure looks as though Self remains at the top of his abilities, but the distinction is a useful one. Gary Williams, in his last four seasons, was pretty clearly no longer a great coach, despite his former great achievements.