Is "Duke has already hit their ceiling" this year's "alarmingly unathletic?"

[David Bunkley]

Can someone explain to me how a team with two of it's top players hurt (assuming Marshall was going to be a legitimate reserve) and 4 freshmen (two red-shirt) has already reached its ceiling?

I know we have 3 seniors, but Curry is hurt, Ryan is returning from injury, and Mason has just leveled-up. Doesn't this team scream upward mobility?

[ChillinDuke]

Can someone explain to me how a team with two of it's top players hurt (assuming Marshall was going to be a legitimate reserve) and 4 freshmen (two red-shirt) has already reached its ceiling?

No.


I know we have 3 seniors, but Curry is hurt, Ryan is returning from injury, and Mason has just leveled-up. Doesn't this team scream upward mobility?

Yes.

- Chillin

[JNort]

No.



Yes.

- Chillin

Same thoughts and it has been brought up by myself a couple of times in other threads.

[Lunchab1es]

Probably because our starters are perceived to be better than anticipated, whereas highly hyped takent like that on UK's roster has thus far performed well below expectations... Thus they have more room for growth whereas Duke is already better than where folks thought. Given the short rotation we have used, it's hard to picture the development of Murphy/Marshal/Amile etc drastically altering the trajectory of the team as they would be "taking minutes" from the players who, so far, have very clearly been our "stars".

Also freshmen often are more likely to make big jumps, whereas seniors may be thought to have already achieved whatever growth they were going to achieve on the college level.

I see why people feel that way, although I certainly think there is room for growth and development. I think the biggest thing will be the development of chemistry along with Cook's confidence and maturation (which, regardless of "talent ceiling" opinions, can only get better with time).

Essentially, just a glass half empty sort of view.

[roywhite]

Yes, I'd say "already hit their ceiling" is bogus, but perhaps likely to be repeated.

It's reasonable to say that a team with 3 talented and experienced seniors has an advantage over other teams. And maybe that is especially true early in the season.

However, that experience continues to be an advantage throughout the season and into the NCAA Tournament. There are numerous examples (lincluding Duke 2010) of teams with senior leaders performing well and winning the NCAA Tournament; you often hear coaches and players talk about the benefit of senior leadership in the Tournament.

So we've got 3 great seniors. The rest of the hoops world will have to deal with it. ;)

[dukeofcalabash]

Honestly, the only place where I read all of the "alarminly unathletic" poop is on Duke sites like this one. Why rehash any comments from those writers who dislike seeing Duke succeed with the players they recruit? It appears to me that some people have a fetish about spreading the ill will that is out there about Duke basketball. I like, and I'm sure veryone on here does also, what I see on this team and believe it is very athletic, which is what we should focus on ---- positives.

[bob blue devil]

"Duke has already hit their ceiling"

who made this comment? i get the sense that is the media's sentiment, but hadn't heard anybody out and out say it.

i agree that it's bogus. thinking a team led by such an inexperienced point guard (vs. his clearly high talent level) could hit it's ceiling so early is simply ignorant. 2/3 of our starting backcourt is experiencing meaningful college minutes for the first time and we've hit our ceiling after 8 games? Please.

p.s. yes, i'm eating crow about quinn and couldn't be happier - he is clearly at a higher level athletically and skill wise vs. what i saw last year

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

who made this comment? i get the sense that is the media's sentiment, but hadn't heard anybody out and out say it.r


I think it was mentioned in the CBS podcast with Doug Gottlieb. Strangely enough, I think he meant it in a positive way, as the rest of the comments were very complimentary in regards to where this team is at this point in the season.

And yes, it is bogus. This is the sort of backhanded compliment that Duke fans should be used to by now though. The media loves to lob these odd comments as an explanation for Duke's success under otherwise baffling circumstances. Get ready for a slew of "OSU and Kentucky never should have been ranked so high and we are over-valuing those wins for Duke" as well as "Duke never would have beaten Louisville with Dieng," reports as we move forward.

Go Duke!

[CDu]

In terms of "irrelevant statements made by Doug Gottlieb that some folks on DBR obsess about for the next few years?" Absolutely.

[David Bunkley]

In terms of "irrelevant statements made by Doug Gottlieb that some folks on DBR obsess about for the next few years?" Absolutely.

I think obsess is a bit much, but I agree with your point.

[JNort]

who made this comment? i get the sense that is the media's sentiment, but hadn't heard anybody out and out say it.


Its has been said on this board in other forums already.

[English]

I think it was mentioned in the CBS podcast with Doug Gottlieb. Strangely enough, I think he meant it in a positive way, as the rest of the comments were very complimentary in regards to where this team is at this point in the season.

And yes, it is bogus. This is the sort of backhanded compliment that Duke fans should be used to by now though. The media loves to lob these odd comments as an explanation for Duke's success under otherwise baffling circumstances. Get ready for a slew of "OSU and Kentucky never should have been ranked so high and we are over-valuing those wins for Duke" as well as "Duke never would have beaten Louisville with Dieng," reports as we move forward.

Go Duke!

I believe you forgot the series of 'if they played again now, UofL/OSU/UK would definitely run away with it' nonsense that will likely surface as soon as mid-January. It never fails when Duke performs well in early-season nonconference games that the results will be dismissed as the season wears on. There is some merit to notion that games later in the season better reflect what will happen in the post-season tourneys, but it's a tired song.

And, if the only place that you hear comments about Duke being an unathletic team is on pro-Duke sites where other Duke fans lament isolated comments from talking heads years ago, you may be the luckiest Duke fan I've ever encountered. I envy you and the cloistered fandom you enjoy. I think this Duke team is one of the most athletic squads we've had in years, one of the more athletic teams in the country (certainly in the ACC), but I don't think other fanbases will let that get in the way of painting Duke as the soft, slow, methodical group they always do. To paraphrase the old adage, I'd be more worried if they didn't hate us because they'd probably not be thinking about us at all.

That said, count me among those that think this team is incredibly strong now, but has room to grow and improve as the season goes. I can't see a team this talented, with young pieces both in the starting lineup and others looking to break into the rotation, peaking in November.

[CDu]

I think obsess is a bit much, but I agree with your point.

Yeah, I should have said "latch on to and repeat" rather than "obsess." Obsess was definitely too harsh a term.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, I should have said "latch on to and repeat" rather than "obsess." Obsess was definitely too harsh a term.

So sarcasm can be used successfully on forums. Who knew...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I believe you forgot the series of 'if they played again now, UofL/OSU/UK would definitely run away with it' nonsense that will likely surface as soon as mid-January. It never fails when Duke performs well in early-season nonconference games that the results will be dismissed as the season wears on. There is some merit to notion that games later in the season better reflect what will happen in the post-season tourneys, but it's a tired song.

And, if the only place that you hear comments about Duke being an unathletic team is on pro-Duke sites where other Duke fans lament isolated comments from talking heads years ago, you may be the luckiest Duke fan I've ever encountered. I envy you and the cloistered fandom you enjoy. I think this Duke team is one of the most athletic squads we've had in years, one of the more athletic teams in the country (certainly in the ACC), but I don't think other fanbases will let that get in the way of painting Duke as the soft, slow, methodical group they always do. To paraphrase the old adage, I'd be more worried if they didn't hate us because they'd probably not be thinking about us at all.

That said, count me among those that think this team is incredibly strong now, but has room to grow and improve as the season goes. I can't see a team this talented, with young pieces both in the starting lineup and others looking to break into the rotation, peaking in November.

I agree with you on all accounts. However, I am certainly not living in a Duke Blue Bubble (though that does sound delightful). I live in Asheville, and in 99 out of 100 cases, I am the only Duke fan in the room. I have heard every conceivable criticism and know well enough to not even bother to retort beyond pointing at the scoreboard. Everything from the rudimentary "Duke flops/gets all the calls" and "Coach K looks like a rat" to the more sophisticated-yet-still-ignorant "How come you didn't have to forfeit Maggette games?" and "Why doesn't the 94-95 season count against K's record?" The myopic mindsets do not allow for any logical counter argument, (though it is probably the equivalent to pointing at the Helms Banners in the Dean Dome) and are inherently unwillable.

At the end of the day, these character attacks are meaningless to me. As long as Duke continues to post W's and do it the right way, my friends/neighbors/coworkers can attack our athleticism, racial makeup, appearance as much as they like.

Go Duke!

[English]

I agree with you on all accounts. However, I am certainly not living in a Duke Blue Bubble (though that does sound delightful). I live in Asheville, and in 99 out of 100 cases, I am the only Duke fan in the room. I have heard every conceivable criticism and know well enough to not even bother to retort beyond pointing at the scoreboard. Everything from the rudimentary "Duke flops/gets all the calls" and "Coach K looks like a rat" to the more sophisticated-yet-still-ignorant "How come you didn't have to forfeit Maggette games?" and "Why doesn't the 94-95 season count against K's record?" The myopic mindsets do not allow for any logical counter argument, (though it is probably the equivalent to pointing at the Helms Banners in the Dean Dome) and are inherently unwillable.

At the end of the day, these character attacks are meaningless to me. As long as Duke continues to post W's and do it the right way, my friends/neighbors/coworkers can attack our athleticism, racial makeup, appearance as much as they like.

Go Duke!

Sorry, I should have split my response between two quotes. You're right, I was adding on a bit to your post in mine. The second point should have cited a comment earlier in the thread that dukeofcalabash made:
"Honestly, the only place where I read all of the "alarminly unathletic" poop is on Duke sites like this one. Why rehash any comments from those writers who dislike seeing Duke succeed with the players they recruit?" I was merely pointing out that I wish I only heard comments like that on this board, where they're almost exclusively tongue-in-cheek. Sadly, not the case.