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hillsborodevil
11-29-2012, 12:39 AM
With Duke's preposterous early season schedule and flawless record, Mason Plumlee is by far Player of the Year.

uh_no
11-29-2012, 12:44 AM
With Duke's preposterous early season schedule and flawless record, Mason Plumlee is by far Player of the Year.

he's playing like one right now....i'd rather the national title....but both would be primo

kingboozer
11-29-2012, 12:51 AM
21 points 17 rebounds vs OSU

16 points 7 rebounds vs the 'Ville

17 points 10 rebounds vs VCU

20 points 17 rebounds vs Minnesota

28 points 9 rebounds vs Fla Gulf Coast

18 points 3 rebounds vs UK

19 points 14 rebounds vs Ga State

Averaging roughly 20 points per game and 11 rebounds... yeah he keeps this up and he deserves some hardware come March.

jipops
11-29-2012, 01:07 AM
He did airball his last free throw so that might take him out of the running:D

duke09hms
11-29-2012, 01:09 AM
He did airball his last free throw so that might take him out of the running:D

I thought he missed on purpose since there were 0.2 secs left, but instead he airballed it instead of hitting the rim.

kingboozer
11-29-2012, 01:19 AM
I thought he missed on purpose since there were 0.2 secs left, but instead he airballed it instead of hitting the rim.

he was probably just ready to get some rest after that clinic he had on the floor tonight!

JNort
11-29-2012, 02:05 AM
How about a Freshmen of the Year vigil for Rasheed? He has gotta be up there with the rest of the country right?

OZZIE4DUKE
11-29-2012, 02:12 AM
He did airball his last free throw so that might take him out of the running:D


I thought he missed on purpose since there were 0.2 secs left, but instead he airballed it instead of hitting the rim.

No doubt he missed it intentionally. In fact I think he missed the rim intentionally so that he could be substituted for and get a standing ovation. OK, maybe not that. I think he meant to hit the rim so the clock would expire as soon as someone grabbed the rebound.

-bdbd
11-29-2012, 03:34 AM
http://yahoo.genieo.com/?v=w3i8

I predict that his dunk early in the second half vs OSU will become his "signature" play of the year. And you know what was the most amazing part? Go back and look at it slowly.... when the ball leaves Cook's hand MASON'S FOOT IS STILL ON THE THREE POINT ARC! Second best part: He initially grabs it, one-handed, at or above the top of the "box" on the backboard. Just wow! ESPN Sports Center play of the day! :p

Lord Ash
11-29-2012, 07:12 AM
Best





Vigil






EVER.

Ichabod Drain
11-29-2012, 08:11 AM
http://yahoo.genieo.com/?v=w3i8

I predict that his dunk early in the second half vs OSU will become his "signature" play of the year. And you know what was the most amazing part? Go back and look at it slowly.... when the ball leaves Cook's hand MASON'S FOOT IS STILL ON THE THREE POINT ARC! Second best part: He initially grabs it, one-handed, at or above the top of the "box" on the backboard. Just wow! ESPN Sports Center play of the day! :p

I'm not going to lie, when the ball left Quinn's hands I thought it was going out of bounds, then Mason slammed it down and I kind of sat there in disbelief for a second. Even in slo mo replay i'm not sure exactly how he was able to get up there, control it with one hand, and get it down in the basket. He was flying down the court.

Fish80
11-29-2012, 09:20 AM
I'm not going to lie, when the ball left Quinn's hands I thought it was going out of bounds, then Mason slammed it down and I kind of sat there in disbelief for a second. Even in slo mo replay i'm not sure exactly how he was able to get up there, control it with one hand, and get it down in the basket. He was flying down the court.

Reminded me of the Hurly to Grant Hill play early in the championship game versus Kansas. And I love the post game comment from Quinn, when he said that Mason gets mad at him if he throws it too low.

OldPhiKap
11-29-2012, 09:29 AM
No doubt he missed it intentionally. In fact I think he missed the rim intentionally so that he could be substituted for and get a standing ovation. OK, maybe not that. I think he meant to hit the rim so the clock would expire as soon as someone grabbed the rebound.

K said in the post-game press conference that he told Mason to miss it, to get it out of his system. Maybe a bit of a wry smile when he said it.

Channing
11-29-2012, 09:47 AM
What I love most about the way Mason plays is that after he makes a big play he just puts his head down and runs back down court. This humble mentality goes back to the UNC game last year. If you watch, immediately after Rivers makes the 3 to win the game, Plumlee gives a fist pump and starts heading towards the locker room. Only after the rest of the team piles onto the court does he follow suit. I noticed it last night also ... he rarely gripes or looks at the refs or tries to showboat.

CLW
11-29-2012, 12:34 PM
After a BRUTAL schedule against 3 Top 5 teams + VCU, Minnesota MP2 is averaging 19.9 Pts 11 Reb while shooting 65% from the floor and 78% from the line. If that doesn't make you a (if not THE) front runner for POY I do not know what will.

COYS
11-29-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm not going to lie, when the ball left Quinn's hands I thought it was going out of bounds, then Mason slammed it down and I kind of sat there in disbelief for a second. Even in slo mo replay i'm not sure exactly how he was able to get up there, control it with one hand, and get it down in the basket. He was flying down the court.

And yet Mason not only got to it, but seemed to do so effortlessly, throwing it down like he was in layup drills during warmups. I try not to get to excited about highlights like that, but dang . . . that was special to see.

Delmer
11-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Mason is the Man. And a class act to boot

jimsumner
11-29-2012, 02:47 PM
K said in the post-game press conference that he told Mason to miss it, to get it out of his system. Maybe a bit of a wry smile when he said it.

Very much a wry smile.

Mason said that he told K "I started celebrating too early."

K said that he told Mason that he had one airball for the season and he might as well get it out of his system.

And back to the original point, it's early but Mason has made as strong a case as anybody.

wgl1228
02-11-2013, 08:11 AM
Can we now say that Mason should be 1 or 2 in the player of the year race? A couple of 30 point outings, and a spectacular game against BC (at least in the 2nd half). If he keeps up the double doubles and we keep winning I don't know who else you would choose.

davekay1971
02-11-2013, 08:20 AM
There are certainly some other worthy candidates out there (I'd put Oladipo above Zeller in the Hoosier race, but both of those guys are having great seasons on a national contender), but Mason's case is as good as anyone's, and better than most. Given that there are now multiple NPOY awards, if Mason continues to play at the level he has so far this season, I have to think he'd get one.

Which then would bring us to the next question:

A player stays four years and graduates in excellent academic standing.
Wins an NPOY award.
Leads Duke to the ACC and National Championships in his senior year (the power of positive thinking)

But, for his first 3 seasons had a good career at Duke, marred by inconsistency.

Well...it might make for an interesting discussion regarding where to hang the laundry...

CDu
02-11-2013, 09:24 AM
There are certainly some other worthy candidates out there (I'd put Oladipo above Zeller in the Hoosier race, but both of those guys are having great seasons on a national contender), but Mason's case is as good as anyone's, and better than most. Given that there are now multiple NPOY awards, if Mason continues to play at the level he has so far this season, I have to think he'd get one.

Which then would bring us to the next question:

A player stays four years and graduates in excellent academic standing.
Wins an NPOY award.
Leads Duke to the ACC and National Championships in his senior year (the power of positive thinking)

But, for his first 3 seasons had a good career at Duke, marred by inconsistency.

Well...it might make for an interesting discussion regarding where to hang the laundry...

No discussion, in my opinion. Mason goes in the Hall of Honor, but not in the rafters of Cameron. One glorious season, two solid seasons, and an okay freshman season do not make for a jersey retirement.

sagegrouse
02-11-2013, 09:52 AM
There are certainly some other worthy candidates out there (I'd put Oladipo above Zeller in the Hoosier race, but both of those guys are having great seasons on a national contender), but Mason's case is as good as anyone's, and better than most. Given that there are now multiple NPOY awards, if Mason continues to play at the level he has so far this season, I have to think he'd get one.

Which then would bring us to the next question:

A player stays four years and graduates in excellent academic standing.
Wins an NPOY award.
Leads Duke to the ACC and National Championships in his senior year (the power of positive thinking)

But, for his first 3 seasons had a good career at Duke, marred by inconsistency.

Well...it might make for an interesting discussion regarding where to hang the laundry...

A solid citizen and graduate who wins multiple National Player of the Year awards in 2013 an automatic "jersey in the rafters." I don't think another National Championship for Mason is necessary for the honor, although it would sure be nice. And I wouldn't write off his first three years. Last year he was a third-team All-ACC selection.

sagegrouse

westwall
02-11-2013, 09:52 AM
No discussion, in my opinion. Mason goes in the Hall of Honor, but not in the rafters of Cameron. One glorious season, two solid seasons, and an okay freshman season do not make for a jersey retirement.

I prefer not to throw in the towel yet. Why assume a lid on his progress and accomplishments??

Wander
02-11-2013, 09:59 AM
No discussion, in my opinion. Mason goes in the Hall of Honor, but not in the rafters of Cameron. One glorious season, two solid seasons, and an okay freshman season do not make for a jersey retirement.

I'm split. On the one hand, winning National Player of the Year while leading your team to the national championship and graduating should be automatic jersey retirement, period, no questions asked. However, it'd still be tough for me to view his overall career as better than Scheyer's, Singler's, or Nolan's.

wgl1228
02-11-2013, 10:12 AM
The media seems obsessed with guards like Burke and Olidipo, but Mason, with all due respect to Curry, is carrying this team after a big loss to injury. I hope the writers start turning their attention back to him. Keep up the 20 & 10 games Mason!

Durham Thunder
02-11-2013, 11:52 AM
The media seems obsessed with guards like Burke and Olidipo, but Mason, with all due respect to Curry, is carrying this team after a big loss to injury. I hope the writers start turning their attention back to him. Keep up the 20 & 10 games Mason!

That's the truth. We lost one of the keys to our success. Kelly stretched the floor; this opened up the lane tremendously for Mason. Meanwhile since Kelly has been out, Mason's averaging 19 & 10, with count them TWO 30+ point games. POY in my book.

CDu
02-11-2013, 12:00 PM
I prefer not to throw in the towel yet. Why assume a lid on his progress and accomplishments??

I'm not assuming a lid on his accomplishments this year. I'm saying that, even with a national player of the year and national championship this year, I don't believe that Mason's career is worthy of jersey retirement.

Essentially, those arguing in favor of Mason's jersey retirement would be arguing that one season is enough to merit such an honor. I'm of the belief that a player's career is what gets you jersey retirement - not one singular phenomenal year.

Durham Thunder
02-11-2013, 12:12 PM
I'm not assuming a lid on his accomplishments this year. I'm saying that, even with a national player of the year and national championship this year, I don't believe that Mason's career is worthy of jersey retirement.

Essentially, those arguing in favor of Mason's jersey retirement would be arguing that one season is enough to merit such an honor. I'm of the belief that a player's career is what gets you jersey retirement - not one singular phenomenal year.

Every Duke player to graduate and win NPOY has had their jersey retired. It's a streak going back to Dick Groat in '52 (when it was the Helms Award). Not retiring Mason would be an interesting development.

johnb
02-11-2013, 12:28 PM
Every Duke player to graduate and win NPOY has had their jersey retired. It's a streak going back to Dick Groat in '52 (when it was the Helms Award). Not retiring Mason would be an interesting development.

If he wins a single big NPOY, like the Wooden--which I think is likely if he averages 20/10 down the stretch while we lose no more than another game or two before the NCAA tournament--I'd be stunned if he didn't get a retirement. That's the unspoken rule, and we should know.... we discuss it every year (or course, that's without external confirmation). If the criteria were "bachelor's degree and a likely lottery pick," Cameron's rafters would look like the back room at my dry cleaners.

Channing
02-11-2013, 12:54 PM
It has been a real joy watching Mason unlock his potential this year. Mason should be a top 2 contender for NPOY, and after a short respite a couple weeks ago he has returned to his dominant self.

If nothing else, though, the Duke staff can point to Mason this year to refute the ludicrous argument that Duke bigs only set screens. Yes, they set screens on the perimeter (largely because they are athletic enough to get out there and set a screen), but they also get free reign to run the post so long as they have shown the ability to do so.

Durham Thunder
02-11-2013, 01:34 PM
The other side is: who's better?

If I had to pick today, I'd think Trey Burke and Victor Oladipo are the only other players deserving. Deshaun Thomas doesn't do a whole lot else besides score (as silly as it sounds, you know what I mean).

DukieinSoCal
02-11-2013, 06:34 PM
Another thing that Mason does for us is draw a lot of fouls. Not only does it get the other teams' big men into foul trouble, it helps us get into the bonus and those freebies are often huge for us down the stretch in tight games. Last night's game is a perfect example. Thank goodness we were in the double bonus the last time Mason went to the line because his 2nd free throw after missing the first provided our margin of victory.
I'm not sure how the other candidates do in this area but I'm pretty sure Mason draws more fouls than Burke or Oladipo.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 07:13 PM
No discussion, in my opinion. Mason goes in the Hall of Honor, but not in the rafters of Cameron. One glorious season, two solid seasons, and an okay freshman season do not make for a jersey retirement.

I thought there were two criteria: winning a NPOY award, and graduating. Pretty sure I heard Dick Brodhead say that at JJ's and Sheldon's jersey retirements, both of which I attended. Are we retroactively adding more criteria in Mason's case?

Indoor66
02-11-2013, 08:09 PM
I thought there were two criteria: winning a NPOY award, and graduating. Pretty sure I heard Dick Brodhead say that at JJ's and Sheldon's jersey retirements, both of which I attended. Are we retroactively adding more criteria in Mason's case?

Isn't such an honor based on a career? If Mason graduates and is NPOY, then hasn't he had a retirement career? He was (and played) on a National Champion team. He has improved every year at Duke. IMO (never humble), if he is NPOY and graduates he is deserving of having 5 in the rafters.

Lord Ash
02-11-2013, 08:18 PM
With a NPOY award in hand but short a national title, I would have a hard time saying that Mason had a better career at Duke than Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, or Jon Scheyer. Sorry... I just can't say that.

cbarry
02-11-2013, 09:08 PM
He still consistently gets burned on defense. Opposing big men often have their way with Mason. Mason is a good player, and a key member of our team, but I don't think he's NPOY material. I am thrilled with his improved FT shooting!

CDu
02-11-2013, 09:08 PM
I thought there were two criteria: winning a NPOY award, and graduating. Pretty sure I heard Dick Brodhead say that at JJ's and Sheldon's jersey retirements, both of which I attended. Are we retroactively adding more criteria in Mason's case?

Nope. None of Hurley, Gminski, Mullins, or Shelden Williams won the National Player of the Year award.

There is no specific criteria for jersey retirement. But players who had far better careers than Mason don't have their jerseys retired. It's intended to be a VERY exclusive club. Giving it to a guy who has had just one great year just doesn't make sense.

Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Spanarkel, Banks, and Alarie all had better careers than Mason. None have their jersey retired.

Newton_14
02-11-2013, 09:10 PM
I'm not assuming a lid on his accomplishments this year. I'm saying that, even with a national player of the year and national championship this year, I don't believe that Mason's career is worthy of jersey retirement.

Essentially, those arguing in favor of Mason's jersey retirement would be arguing that one season is enough to merit such an honor. I'm of the belief that a player's career is what gets you jersey retirement - not one singular phenomenal year.


On POY, Mason is absolutely right there in the mix. He does need to finish the Regular Season strong though. Which I think he will.

As for jersey retirement. I am tougher than most on that subject. To me, that honor is available only to those who have All-ACC level type play from Freshman season thru at least Junior season, preferably thru Senior year. Not saying they have to make at least 3rd team All ACC as a freshman, but they need to be in the mix, and certainly have to be in K's rotation every single year. Even if they don't earn one of the NPOY, they should be a first team All American at least once. National Champion is not a requirement but carries a lot of weight.

With those requirements, Scheyer and Singler were really, really close. I honestly feel that the only thing that kept 12 out of the rafters was a horrid performance behind the 3 point line his Senior Year. If Kyle had just shot it from 3 as a Senior the way he did as a Junior, it would have boosted his scoring average, and probably helped avoid a couple of those regular season losses. He shot it well from 2, but one of life's great mysteries for me will always be what happened to his 3 point shot in that one season.

Had Scheyer sustained his play in his Senior year and nailed down one of the NPOY awards, I think that would have put him over the top too. The first half of that season he was there. His shooting slumps in that second half of the year, hurt his numbers just enough to where he fell short.

I love Nolan and he will forever be one of my favorite Duke players ever, but his Freshman and Sophomore seasons eliminate him in my view. He came of age one year too late.

No offense meant to any of our players. Many that did not achieve the honor were great players, but the bar should be really high, and should be reserved for the best of the best. Just my two cents and I respect the views of those that feel differently.

Ian
02-11-2013, 09:15 PM
To me what's important is where a players finishes.

What you guys are essentially saying is that unless a player comes to Duke already a very good player to begin with, they should never have their jersey retired. Because if they start out only decent, and over the course of the their career works hard to become a great player by the time they are a senior, then they don't deserve it because "they only had one great season, and 2 or 3 decent to good season". Really? Is that really what you are advocating? That only players who came to Duke already great should get it but players who improve themselves while at Duke shouldn't.

I'm not saying he should have his jersey retired. Too much still hinges on what he does the rest of this season. I just don't think he's chances should be dismissed based on the idea that he only had one great season.

Also, Mason was first team Academic All-American last year, only the 4th Duke player in history to get those honors and the first since Shane over a decade ago, does that count for some thing?

CDu
02-11-2013, 09:18 PM
On POY, Mason is absolutely right there in the mix. He does need to finish the Regular Season strong though. Which I think he will.

As for jersey retirement. I am tougher than most on that subject. To me, that honor is available only to those who have All-ACC level type play from Freshman season thru at least Junior season, preferably thru Senior year. Not saying they have to make at least 3rd team All ACC as a freshman, but they need to be in the mix, and certainly have to be in K's rotation every single year. Even if they don't earn one of the NPOY, they should be a first team All American at least once. National Champion is not a requirement but carries a lot of weight.

With those requirements, Scheyer and Singler were really, really close. I honestly feel that the only thing that kept 12 out of the rafters was a horrid performance behind the 3 point line his Senior Year. If Kyle had just shot it from 3 as a Senior the way he did as a Junior, it would have boosted his scoring average, and probably helped avoid a couple of those regular season losses. He shot it well from 2, but one of life's great mysteries for me will always be what happened to his 3 point shot in that one season.

Had Scheyer sustained his play in his Senior year and nailed down one of the NPOY awards, I think that would have put him over the top too. The first half of that season he was there. His shooting slumps in that second half of the year, hurt his numbers just enough to where he fell short.

I love Nolan and he will forever be one of my favorite Duke players ever, but his Freshman and Sophomore seasons eliminate him in my view. He came of age one year too late.

No offense meant to any of our players. Many that did not achieve the honor were great players, but the bar should be really high, and should be reserved for the best of the best. Just my two cents and I respect the views of those that feel differently.

I tend to agree with your general sentiment here, and agree that Scheyer and Singler were closer than Smith and (presumably) Mason. But you do realize that your criteria would have excluded two players who have their jerseys retired (Ferry and Williams), right? That being said, I'd be much more supportive of your criteria than letting Mason in based almost entirely on just one great season.

Newton_14
02-11-2013, 09:18 PM
He still consistently gets burned on defense. Opposing big men often have their way with Mason. Mason is a good player, and a key member of our team, but I don't think he's NPOY material. I am thrilled with his improved FT shooting!


I haven't seen any opposing big men "have their way" with Mason this year. He is under direct orders to stay on the floor and not foul out no matter what. He has to pick and choose when to challenge. It sucks, but it is not his fault. That is just the situation Duke is in. Mason cannot foul out and Duke still play at a high level. The FSU game was an anomaly. Down the stretch with games on the line, he has protected the rim. Case in point was the State game. In those last 5 or 6 minutes he challenged Leslie and Howell early and often. The block on Leslie (when Mason had 4 fouls and could not foul out) was a thing of beauty. Most of Howell's points came on face up jumpers, not challenging Mason at the rim.

I think Mason is absolutely right there in the NPOY race. If the season ended today, he would win the ACC POY and at least one or more of the NPOY awards. He just needs to finish strong in these last 9 or so regular season games.

CDu
02-11-2013, 09:21 PM
What you guys are essentially saying is that unless a player comes to Duke already a very good player to begin with, they should never have their jersey retired. Because if they start out only decent, and over the course of the their career works hard to become a great player by the time they are a senior, then they don't deserve it because "they only had one great season, and 2 or 3 decent to good season". Really? Is that really what you are advocating? That only players who came to Duke already great should get it but players who improve themselves while at Duke shouldn't.

More or less, yes, that's what I'm saying. Jersey retirement should be an EXCEEDINGLY special honor. There's a place for the guy who comes to Duke as a role player for a few years and then has a great senior year: it's called the Hall of Honor. Jersey retirement should be saved for the best of the best.


Also, Mason was first team Academic All-American last year, only the 4th Duke player in history to get those honors and the first since Shane over a decade ago, does that count for some thing?

That's a great honor, and should be commended. It does not, however, matter that much when it comes to jersey retirement. Again - he should absolutely be in the Hall of Honor. But he should not be considered for jersey retirement.

Ian
02-11-2013, 09:31 PM
More or less, yes, that's what I'm saying. Jersey retirement should be an EXCEEDINGLY special honor.


That part I agree with, I just think the specialness should be weighed on what the player was able to accomplish and develop at Duke, not on what the player already was when he came here. I consider a player who was able to improve greatly at Duke even more special, because it is both a credit to his hardwork and Duke as a institution that helps someone grow.

Duke is after all not a professional athletic franchise, its standard for retirement should not be the same as the Celtics or Lakers, where it's all about stats.

Newton_14
02-11-2013, 09:48 PM
I tend to agree with your general sentiment here, and agree that Scheyer and Singler were closer than Smith and (presumably) Mason. But you do realize that your criteria would have excluded two players who have their jerseys retired (Ferry and Williams), right? That being said, I'd be much more supportive of your criteria than letting Mason in based almost entirely on just one great season.


I would not exlude those two guys, no. :)

Yeah, Freshman get more of a pass for sure. I do feel they should be good enough Freshman year to contribute/at least be in the rotation, but the ALL-ACC mix is too high. That's fair.

I have predicted a jersey to hang two times after watching just one game in their Freshman season. I was one for two. First one was Jason Williams. I called that after the Blue/White game. Second was Kyle after the first regular season game. So close!

turnandburn55
02-11-2013, 09:55 PM
Every Duke player to graduate and win NPOY has had their jersey retired. It's a streak going back to Dick Groat in '52 (when it was the Helms Award). Not retiring Mason would be an interesting development.

Eh. It's not automatic entry, but it is criteria. I think we're forgetting just how accomplished some of our previous NPOYs were. Mason Plumlee's best season up to this point was as a junior, where he was third-team all-ACC and the third-leading vote-getter on his team. JJ Redick, Duke's last NPOY, was a third-team all-ACC as a freshman. His junior year, he won a NPOY award, unanimous first-team all-American, ACC player of the year, and ACC tournament MVP.

Some of the previous NPOYs I'll admit were before my time, but Jay Dubs, Battier, Laettner, and Dawkins already had nicely stocked case of individual accolades prior to their final season. Look, I love what Mason has done for us this year and I'm not suggesting shutting the door on his candidacy, but I think it's a long shot on hanging his jersey up.

Kyle Singler might also have something to say about being the only F4 MOP to not have his number in the rafters. Maybe Mason will be the second ;)

uh_no
02-11-2013, 10:04 PM
Eh. It's not automatic entry, but it is criteria. I think we're forgetting just how accomplished some of our previous NPOYs were. Mason Plumlee's best season up to this point was as a junior, where he was third-team all-ACC and the third-leading vote-getter on his team. JJ Redick, Duke's last NPOY, was a third-team all-ACC as a freshman. His junior year, he won a NPOY award, unanimous first-team all-American, ACC player of the year, and ACC tournament MVP.

Some of the previous NPOYs I'll admit were before my time, but Jay Dubs, Battier, Laettner, and Dawkins already had nicely stocked case of individual accolades prior to their final season. Look, I love what Mason has done for us this year and I'm not suggesting shutting the door on his candidacy, but I think it's a long shot on hanging his jersey up.

Kyle Singler might also have something to say about being the only F4 MOP to not have his number in the rafters. Maybe Mason will be the second ;)

maybe i'm wrong, but i'm not sure any of the guys on the 2010 team would trade the big banner hanging in the north end for an individual accolade.

turnandburn55
02-11-2013, 10:15 PM
maybe i'm wrong, but i'm not sure any of the guys on the 2010 team would trade the big banner hanging in the north end for an individual accolade.

That's the point.

Wander
02-11-2013, 10:53 PM
I just don't see how you can exclude a guy who wins NPOY and a national championship in the same year, if that ends up happening. That should be automatic jersey retirement, assuming the guy graduates and has no scandals or anything. I think some of you guys are underestimating how rare a national championship is.

There may be another effect going on that's causing people to romanticize old players compared to new players a bit - most of the retired jersey guys played with other retired jersey guys. I wonder how differently we would think of Shelden Williams in a universe where JJ Redick doesn't come to Duke, for example, and he ends his career with no Final Fours and with a whole lot more guys playing help defense on him.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:06 PM
Nope. None of Hurley, Gminski, Mullins, or Shelden Williams won the National Player of the Year award.
There is no specific criteria for jersey retirement. But players who had far better careers than Mason don't have their jerseys retired. It's intended to be a VERY exclusive club. Giving it to a guy who has had just one great year just doesn't make sense.

Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Spanarkel, Banks, and Alarie all had better careers than Mason. None have their jersey retired.

Sheldon Williams won a national defensive player of the year award, same as Wojo. Again, I was at Cameron for Sheldon's jersey retirement ceremony. President Brodhead specifically cited two, and only two, criteria for jersey retirement: an NPOY award (including defensive), and graduation.

I agree that many have had better careers than Mason. All I'm seeking is clarity regarding the criteria here.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:11 PM
More or less, yes, that's what I'm saying. Jersey retirement should be an EXCEEDINGLY special honor. There's a place for the guy who comes to Duke as a role player for a few years and then has a great senior year: it's called the Hall of Honor. Jersey retirement should be saved for the best of the best.

I'm sorry, but I don't think this is subjective. There are specific criteria. They are immutable. Your opinion as to what the standard "should" be is irrelevant. If Mason wins any NPOY award this year (there are several), and graduates (which is a stone cold lock), his jersey is going in the rafters.

Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Mason will win any NPOY awards, unless Ryan comes back very soon, so this whole discussion is probably moot anyway. But talking about it like it's subjective is way off base.

Duvall
02-11-2013, 11:15 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is subjective. There are specific criteria. They are immutable. Your opinion as to what the standard "should" be is irrelevant. If Mason wins any NPOY award this year (there are several), and graduates (which is a stone cold lock), his jersey is going in the rafters.

Huh? It's completely subjective. The only standard for jersey retirement at Duke is that there is no standard. Or rather, the standard is whatever the decision makers want it to be.

BoozerWasFouled
02-11-2013, 11:17 PM
More or less, yes, that's what I'm saying. Jersey retirement should be an EXCEEDINGLY special honor. There's a place for the guy who comes to Duke as a role player for a few years and then has a great senior year: it's called the Hall of Honor. Jersey retirement should be saved for the best of the best.

If Mason wins NPOY, Coach K will retire the jersey. Every graduating NPOY has had the number retired. Being a role player as a sophomore did not count against Battier. Why would it count against Plumlee?

If Mason wins NPOY and his jersey is not retired, it will represent an unprecedented departure from decades of tradition.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:22 PM
Huh? It's completely subjective. The only standard for jersey retirement at Duke is that there is no standard. Or rather, the standard is whatever the decision makers want it to be.

Your statement is in complete contradiction to what President Brodhead said at our last two jersey retirements (Sheldon's and JJ's). I was there for both of them. I'm not saying you're wrong... but you might want to check in with Dick to see if he has a different opinion.

vick
02-11-2013, 11:25 PM
If Mason wins NPOY, Coach K will retire the jersey. Every graduating NPOY has had the number retired. Being a role player as a sophomore did not count against Battier. Why would it count against Plumlee?

If Mason wins NPOY and his jersey is not retired, it will represent an unprecedented departure from decades of tradition.

First of all, I think this discussion is somewhat premature. But, more importantly, in no way should Mason's early career be compared with Battier. Battier lead the team in total blocks and rebounds, and was second in steals, as a freshman. As a sophomore, he was NDPOY. Now, I feel like Mason's been somewhat underrated in the past couple of years--if you care about efficiency, I think you can make a strong case he and not Austin was our best player last year--but I mean, come on.

Duvall
02-11-2013, 11:28 PM
Your statement is in complete contradiction to what President Brodhead said at our last two jersey retirements (Sheldon's and JJ's). I was there for both of them. I'm not saying you're wrong... but you might want to check in with Dick to see if he has a different opinion.

I was there too. And given that it was an ad hoc rule that wasn't applied retroactively and doesn't make much sense (NDPOY, really?) it's hard to take those statements seriously.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:29 PM
One final point... if the criteria for jersey retirement were in any way subjective, Alex Murphy would not be wearing #12 right now, because Kyle's jersey would be hanging next to JJ's. Coach K himself has said publicly that Kyle is one of the 10 best Blue Devils of all time. Kyle was a four year starter, is the all time Duke leader in wins, is high up on the all time leaderboards in just about any offensive category you want to name, was a senior captain, is frequently cited by the coaching staff as an example of what they want Duke players to be, and is a national champion and final four MVP. He is truly one of the best players in program history. But guess what? He didn't win any national POY awards, so his jersey didn't get retired. I'm not saying it's fair... obviously Kyle will go down in history as a greater Blue Devil than Mason, no matter what happens between now and the end of the year. The point is that the criteria for jersey retirement aren't subjective - if they were, #12 would be hanging in the rafters right now.

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:33 PM
I was there too. And given that it was an ad hoc rule that wasn't applied retroactively and doesn't make much sense (NDPOY, really?) it's hard to take those statements seriously.

So your argument is that the president of the university stood in Cameron twice within two weeks and said something that he didn't mean. Ooohhhh-kaaayyyy....

ncexnyc
02-11-2013, 11:38 PM
I think Mason's chances of having his jersey retired are slim to none.

I'm in the camp who believe this is a career achievement type honor, however on the remote possiblity that Mason kicks his play into ultra-beast mode for the remainder of the season and carries the team on his back, minus Kelly to a National Championship, then I would have to believe he could very well be worthy of that honor.

Duvall
02-11-2013, 11:40 PM
So your argument is that the president of the university stood in Cameron twice within two weeks and said something that he didn't mean. Ooohhhh-kaaayyyy....

Is it better to believe that he said something nonsensical? Do you really think this rule - which has never been written down anywhere - would survive the next hard case?

uh_no
02-11-2013, 11:46 PM
I was there too. And given that it was an ad hoc rule that wasn't applied retroactively and doesn't make much sense (NDPOY, really?) it's hard to take those statements seriously.

Should we ignore that K has said it as well?

cptnflash
02-11-2013, 11:47 PM
Is it better to believe that he said something nonsensical? Do you really think this rule - which has never been written down anywhere - would survive the next hard case?

I'm not aware of any historical exceptions, so yes, I think the criteria that were communicated publicly by the president of the university will survive the next challenge.

But as I've said before, I don't think Mason will win any POY awards unless Ryan comes back very soon, so regrettably, I don't think we'll have an answer to this question any time soon.

Duvall
02-12-2013, 12:08 AM
From page 100 of this year's media guide: (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/web-docs/2012-13-MBB-MediaGuide/Tradition_77-112.pdf?SPSID=22748&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

Though there is no 'official' criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke, a player must achieve at a national level - earn National Player of the Year or National Defensive Player of the Year honors, set an NCAA record, win a gold medal representing his country at the Olympics or earn All-America recognition.

Note the express disclaimer of any official criteria. Note that the unofficial criteria are much broader than the ones described by Brodhead at Shelden and JJ's retirements. Note that Nolan Smith was a consensus first-team All-American and Kyle Singler was an NABC second-team All-American, and note that neither had his jersey retired.

It's subjective, okay?

Kedsy
02-12-2013, 12:32 AM
From page 100 of this year's media guide: (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/web-docs/2012-13-MBB-MediaGuide/Tradition_77-112.pdf?SPSID=22748&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

Though there is no 'official' criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke, a player must achieve at a national level - earn National Player of the Year or National Defensive Player of the Year honors, set an NCAA record, win a gold medal representing his country at the Olympics or earn All-America recognition.

Note the express disclaimer of any official criteria. Note that the unofficial criteria are much broader than the ones described by Brodhead at Shelden and JJ's retirements. Note that Nolan Smith was a consensus first-team All-American and Kyle Singler was an NABC second-team All-American, and note that neither had his jersey retired.

It's subjective, okay?

The stated unofficial criteria also requires what is necessary to get your jersey retired. It does not in any way appear to state was is sufficient to get your shirt tied to the rafters. In other words, just because you must have a national honor to for jersey retirement doesn't mean everyone who has a national honor will get their jersey retired.

sporthenry
02-12-2013, 01:01 AM
The stated unofficial criteria also requires what is necessary to get your jersey retired. It does not in any way appear to state was is sufficient to get your shirt tied to the rafters. In other words, just because you must have a national honor to for jersey retirement doesn't mean everyone who has a national honor will get their jersey retired.

I think that is his point. People are acting like Mason gets a NPOY award and instantly deserves to have his number retired. So that might be the minimum to have your number retired but it doesn't guarantee anything so Mason would still be subject to the same process that determined Singler/Smith didn't deserve to have their numbers retired.

And I agree that to have your jersey retired, you really should have had more than just 1 great year for Duke. JJ and Jason averaged double figures their first year. Shelden didn't put up the instant stats that the other 2 were but he averaged a double-double his last 2 years and his defense was obviously some of the best at Duke.

And I doubt I'm the only one who would feel weird to see Plumlee in the rafters but no Singler or Smith.

sagegrouse
02-12-2013, 01:06 AM
From page 100 of this year's media guide: (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/web-docs/2012-13-MBB-MediaGuide/Tradition_77-112.pdf?SPSID=22748&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

Though there is no 'official' criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke, a player must achieve at a national level - earn National Player of the Year or National Defensive Player of the Year honors, set an NCAA record, win a gold medal representing his country at the Olympics or earn All-America recognition.

Note the express disclaimer of any official criteria. Note that the unofficial criteria are much broader than the ones described by Brodhead at Shelden and JJ's retirements. Note that Nolan Smith was a consensus first-team All-American and Kyle Singler was an NABC second-team All-American, and note that neither had his jersey retired.

It's subjective, okay?


The stated unofficial criteria also requires what is necessary to get your jersey retired. It does not in any way appear to state was is sufficient to get your shirt tied to the rafters. In other words, just because you must have a national honor to for jersey retirement doesn't mean everyone who has a national honor will get their jersey retired.

National Player of the Year plus a Duke degree -- always gets his jersey retired. Only two-year player Elton Brand's jersey is NOT hanging in the rafters. Duke has nine players who were NPOY in at least one category that have had their jerseys retired.

First team All-American -- often, but not always. In addition to Brand, 1st team A-A's Nolan Smith, Chris Carrawell and Bob Verga have not had their jerseys retired. But, in all, 12 first team A-A have had their jerseys retired.

I predict that if Mason gets multiple NPOY honors, #5 will be in the rafters at Cameron. If he gets no NPOY honors but is 1st team A-A, I think not.

sagegrouse
'The only retired jersey that was not NPOY or 1st team A-A was #44 Jeff Mullins, an all-time good guy. Of course, he added some luster to his credentials with an Olympic gold medal, an NBA championship and several NBA All-Star games -- and most of all, he was President of the Class of 1964'

-jk
02-12-2013, 06:35 AM
I'm not aware of any historical exceptions, so yes, I think the criteria that were communicated publicly by the president of the university will survive the next challenge.

But as I've said before, I don't think Mason will win any POY awards unless Ryan comes back very soon, so regrettably, I don't think we'll have an answer to this question any time soon.

Shelden won defensive player of the year. Wojo, Amaker, and Billy King also won that. Shelden set the Duke career record for rebounds. Tommy set the Duke career record for assists. Billy, Tommy, and Shelden all led Duke to final fours.

Only Shelden got into the rafters.

Like it or not, the rules seem to be squishy.

-jk

CDu
02-12-2013, 07:42 AM
Sheldon Williams won a national defensive player of the year award, same as Wojo. Again, I was at Cameron for Sheldon's jersey retirement ceremony. President Brodhead specifically cited two, and only two, criteria for jersey retirement: an NPOY award (including defensive), and graduation.

I agree that many have had better careers than Mason. All I'm seeking is clarity regarding the criteria here.

If you include Williams' NDPoY awards, then why isn't Wojo's jersey hanging? So surely that alone can't be sufficient to get your jersey retired.

And Hurley, Gminski, and Mullins do not have any NPoY honors. Why are their jerseys hanging? The criteria you have cited are not the criteria for a retired jersey. There are no criteria for automatic retirement. It is subjective, and the list of retirees confirms that.

grad_devil
02-12-2013, 09:00 AM
12a
12b
12c

That is all.

JasonEvans
02-12-2013, 10:26 AM
I have predicted a jersey to hang two times after watching just one game in their Freshman season. I was one for two. First one was Jason Williams. I called that after the Blue/White game. Second was Kyle after the first regular season game. So close!

That is a really dangerous thing to do. your entire reputation can be ruined by a game (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20021123) or two (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20021125) that seem to foretell greatness... but only offer a tantalizing glimpse at what could have been.

-Jason "sigh... (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?6280-A-Jason-Evans-Shoutout-in-Duke-Trivia-on-Facebook)" Evans

MCFinARL
02-12-2013, 10:58 AM
12a
12b
12c

That is all.

Well said. But this week, you should probably throw in 9F even though it's theoretically off topic. (When is 9F ever really off topic?)

msdukie
02-12-2013, 11:29 AM
I would just like to know why we stopped updating the Hall of Honor in the mid-2000s for both men and women. There are several candidates for that and HoH does have specific eligibilty requirements unlike jersey retirement

jimsumner
02-12-2013, 11:32 AM
Plumlee was named national POW by the USBWA.

Portions of press release.

"Duke senior Mason Plumlee was Oscar Robertson National Player of the Week as selected by the U.S. Basketball Writers Association after leading the Blue Devils to wins over N.C. State (98-85) and Boston College (62-61). The USBWA's weekly honor is presented by Blue Ribbon College Basketball Yearbook and will be handed out each Tuesday through Feb. 19 this season.

As the Atlantic Coast Conference Player of the Week, Plumlee was nominated for the weekly award, which was chosen by a representative of the USBWA board of directors from a list of Division I conference players of the week. Plumlee, a 6-11 forward from Warsaw, Ind., averaged 24.5 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.0 assists and 2.0 blocks while leading the Blue Devils to conference wins over N.C. State and Boston College. For the week, he was 15-22 (.682) from the field and 19-26 (.731) from the free throw line in the two games.

Last Thursday, Plumlee opened the week with 30 points and nine rebounds in a 98-85 win over N.C. State. He was 9-of-11 from the field and 12-of-16 from the foul line in the contest. Plumlee also had a key block late in the contest to eliminate N.C. State’s comeback attempt. In Sunday's 62-61 come-from-behind win at Boston College, Plumlee recorded his 13th double-double of the season with 19 points and 10 rebounds and had several key plays at the end of the game, including a blocked shot, defensive rebound and the game-winning free throw with 24 seconds remaining. He was 3-of-4 from the foul line in the final minute of play as Duke overcame a late five-point deficit."

Olympic Fan
02-12-2013, 12:30 PM
Shelden won defensive player of the year. Wojo, Amaker, and Billy King also won that. Shelden set the Duke career record for rebounds. Tommy set the Duke career record for assists. Billy, Tommy, and Shelden all led Duke to final fours.

Only Shelden got into the rafters.

Like it or not, the rules seem to be squishy.

-jk

You leave out the fact that of the four players you mention -- Shelden, Wojo, Amaker and King, just one was a consensus first-team All-America.

Is is a coicidence that that's the one whose jersey is hanging in the rafters?

Not saying that first-team All-American is enough (as Verga, Carrawell and Nolan prove), but the combination of first-team A-A, national DPOY and Duke's leading career rebounder AND blocked shots pushed Sheldon over the top.


BTW, as for the big question -- I agree that there is no hard-and-fast criteria for retirement EXCEPT thAt a player eaqrn a degree. In Mason's case, I would guess that if he wins any significant NPOY award, he'll earn it ... if he tops ou at first-team All-American, he won't.

Li_Duke
02-12-2013, 01:38 PM
I made a little list of honors from J Dawkins on.

Retired jerseys:
Reddick 1st team AA(junior, senior), NPOY (junior - Adolph Rupp, senior - unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Dawkins 1st team AA (junior, senior), NPOY (Naismith), ACC teams (2nd - freshman, soph; 1st - junior, senior)
Battier 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), 3x NDPOY, ACC teams (3rd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Laettner 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
Ferry 1st team AA (senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (Naismith, Oscar Robertson Trophy, United Press), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Hill 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NDPOY(junior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
J Williams 1st team AA(junior), 2nd team AA (sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - freshman, 1st - soph, 1st (POY) - junior), 1x champ
Hurley 1st team AA (senior), ACC teams (3rd - soph, 2nd - junior, 1st - senior), 2x champ
S Williams 1st team AA(senior), 2x NDPOY, ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ

Close but no cigar:
Brand 1st team AA(sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (1st (POY) - soph), did not graduate
Smith 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Langdon 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams(1st - soph, junior, senior)
Carrawell 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior)
Singler (3rd - freshman, 2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ
Scheyer 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams (1st - senior), 1x champ
Alarie ACC teams(1st - soph, senior; 2nd - soph)

Good but not in the conversation:
Dunleavy 2nd team AA(junior), ACC teams (1st - junior), did not graduate
Duhon ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st - senior)
Boozer ACC teams (1st - senior)
D Jones ACC teams (1st - senior)
McLeod ACC teams (1st - senior)
Nelson (1st - senior)
G Henderson (1st - junior), did not graduate
Rivers (1st - freshman), did not graduate
Parks ACC teams (2nd - junior, senior)

Wojo DPOY(senior), ACC teams (2nd - junior, 3rd - senior)
T Hill ACC teams(3rd - soph, junior, senior)
Amaker NDPOY(senior), ACC teams(2nd - senior)
King NDPOY(senior)
Collins ACC teams (2nd - senior)
P Henderson ACC teams(2nd - soph)
McRoberts (2nd - soph), did not graduate
Avery ACC teams (2nd - soph), did not graduate
Abdelnaby ACC teams(3rd - senior)
Lang ACC teams (3rd - senior)
Capel ACC teams (3rd - junior)
Price ACC teams (3rd - junior)
James ACC teams (3rd - senior)
Ewing (3rd - senior)
Paulus (3rd - junior)
Deng (3rd - freshman), did not graduate
Curry (3rd - junior)*
Plumlee (3rd - junior)*

* active player

Li_Duke
02-12-2013, 02:04 PM
In the best case scenario, Plumlee is 1st team AA (senior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ (barely played in 1). Where does he fall then? He definitely won't rank up there with Reddick (who btw, has the most individual honors of those with jerseys retired). He'll have surpassed Brand, Smith, Carrawell, and Scheyer. Hard to say whether his career is better than the consistently good but never great Langdon, Singler, and Alarie. Hurley is the only Coach K era player whose jersey was retired without multiple first team ACC selections.

Also, a couple typos in my earlier post. Smith and Alarie were juniors when 2nd team ACC.

CDu
02-12-2013, 02:07 PM
In the best case scenario, Plumlee is 1st team AA (senior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ (barely played in 1). Where does he fall then? He definitely won't rank up there with Reddick (who btw, has the most individual honors of those with jerseys retired). He'll have surpassed Brand, Smith, Carrawell, and Scheyer. Hard to say whether his career is better than the consistently good but never great Langdon, Singler, and Alarie. Hurley is the only Coach K era player whose jersey was retired without multiple first team ACC selections.

Also, a couple typos in my earlier post. Smith and Alarie were juniors when 2nd team ACC.

And remember that Hurley was on 2 championship teams (3 final fours) and is the all-time NCAA leader in assists.

DukieInBrasil
02-12-2013, 02:16 PM
In the best case scenario, Plumlee is 1st team AA (senior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ (barely played in 1). Where does he fall then?

Those accomplishments would certainly be very impressive (and i am pulling for them all to happen!). Some in this thread think that those accomplishments might not be enough for jersey retirement. Let's add one more potential award that might tip him over the top: Final Four MOP.
1st team AA, NPOY, All-ACC (1st-3rd team), 2 championships, AND a F4 MOP, i think would put him right there in the discussion for jersey retirement.

Wander
02-12-2013, 02:20 PM
And remember that Hurley was on 2 championship teams

Of course, Plumlee still could be too.

I'm not sure how strong of constraints we can establish based on past patterns. Until 2010, every national championship Coach K team had multiple retired jerseys, and every Final Four team had at least one retired jersey. That pattern didn't help Scheyer or Singler or Smith. I know what Dick said at JJ's and Shelden's retirement, but I'm not sure how seriously we should take that - it seemed sort of ad hoc to me, and I don't know if the university president is a reliable source for this anyway.

juise
02-12-2013, 02:35 PM
S Williams 1st team AA(senior), 2x NDPOY, ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ


I also think we should start counting 2004. It will make for much happier memories of my trip to San Antonio senior year. :)

Li_Duke
02-12-2013, 03:32 PM
I also think we should start counting 2004. It will make for much happier memories of my trip to San Antonio senior year. :)

Must have been wishful thinking on my part. :)

sagegrouse
02-12-2013, 05:23 PM
Good but not in the conversation:
Dunleavy 2nd team AA(junior), ACC teams (1st - junior), did not graduate
Duhon ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st - senior)
Boozer ACC teams (1st - senior)
D Jones ACC teams (1st - senior)
McLeod ACC teams (1st - senior)
Nelson (1st - senior)
G Henderson (1st - junior), did not graduate
Rivers (1st - freshman), did not graduate
Parks ACC teams (2nd - junior, senior)



FWIW, Dunleavy did graduate. Boozer did not and probably will not. Do we know that Gerald has not graduated? He was at Duke for three years plus some summer work.

sagegrouse

davekay1971
02-12-2013, 05:47 PM
Caught only the part of the interview, but Doug Gottlieb had Mase on his CBS sports radio program at about 5:30 today and Mason, of course, did quite well in the portion I heard. Some of the interesting tidbits I heard were Gottlieb asking about the 2010 beat down at Cameron (Mase: "the guys weren't playing the scoreboard, they were just putting it on [the Heels]"), Austin's final shot last season ("He kept waving everyone off and I was like, you better get the shot up there, man"), how Duke was coping better with RK's loss better this year than we did last year ("We're more balanced this year"), and whether the rematch with Miami was something circled on Duke's calendar ("Um...yeah, we've got that one circled").

Not sure if the interview is available online, but it was a nice one.

(PS: Doug did NOT ask Mason if he considered himself to be "alarmingly unathletic")

juise
02-12-2013, 07:23 PM
(PS: Doug did NOT ask Mason if he considered himself to be "alarmingly unathletic")

To his credit, yesterday Doug called Mason "very athletic" in his draft board post (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/doug-gottlieb/21687186).

He calls Anthony Bennett a "freak athlete" and places him at #1. I haven't seen a whole lot of Bennett and am not questiong his pro prospects, but I can't help but wonder whether he can jump higher than Mason. We all know that there's more to being athletic than jumping (I imagine Bennett is a little quicker than Mason). I just have a hard time not placing Mason in the "freak athlete" category.

Newton_14
02-12-2013, 09:04 PM
I made a little list of honors from J Dawkins on.

Retired jerseys:
Reddick 1st team AA(junior, senior), NPOY (junior - Adolph Rupp, senior - unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Dawkins 1st team AA (junior, senior), NPOY (Naismith), ACC teams (2nd - freshman, soph; 1st - junior, senior)
Battier 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), 3x NDPOY, ACC teams (3rd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Laettner 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
Ferry 1st team AA (senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (Naismith, Oscar Robertson Trophy, United Press), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Hill 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NDPOY(junior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
J Williams 1st team AA(junior), 2nd team AA (sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - freshman, 1st - soph, 1st (POY) - junior), 1x champ
Hurley 1st team AA (senior), ACC teams (3rd - soph, 2nd - junior, 1st - senior), 2x champ
S Williams 1st team AA(senior), 2x NDPOY, ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ

Close but no cigar:
Brand 1st team AA(sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (1st (POY) - soph), did not graduate
Smith 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Langdon 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams(1st - soph, junior, senior)
Carrawell 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior)
Singler (3rd - freshman, 2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ
Scheyer 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams (1st - senior), 1x champ
Alarie ACC teams(1st - soph, senior; 2nd - soph)

Good but not in the conversation:
Dunleavy 2nd team AA(junior), ACC teams (1st - junior), did not graduate
Duhon ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st - senior)
Boozer ACC teams (1st - senior)
D Jones ACC teams (1st - senior)
McLeod ACC teams (1st - senior)
Nelson (1st - senior)
G Henderson (1st - junior), did not graduate
Rivers (1st - freshman), did not graduate
Parks ACC teams (2nd - junior, senior)

Wojo DPOY(senior), ACC teams (2nd - junior, 3rd - senior)
T Hill ACC teams(3rd - soph, junior, senior)
Amaker NDPOY(senior), ACC teams(2nd - senior)
King NDPOY(senior)
Collins ACC teams (2nd - senior)
P Henderson ACC teams(2nd - soph)
McRoberts (2nd - soph), did not graduate
Avery ACC teams (2nd - soph), did not graduate
Abdelnaby ACC teams(3rd - senior)
Lang ACC teams (3rd - senior)
Capel ACC teams (3rd - junior)
Price ACC teams (3rd - junior)
James ACC teams (3rd - senior)
Ewing (3rd - senior)
Paulus (3rd - junior)
Deng (3rd - freshman), did not graduate
Curry (3rd - junior)*
Plumlee (3rd - junior)*

* active player

Great post. One thing all the retired guys have in common is they all made at least 3rd Team All ACC or higher for 3 straight seasons. All made 1st Team All American at least once, and all but Hurley made at least 2nd Team All American or higher in 2 or more seasons. Which is why I feel Mason does not have a shot at retirement. He is already a National Champion, has a great chance at one or more NPOY awards, and if Ryan makes it back and can be effective, Mason will have a fighters chance of a 2nd Title. I still say if the dream season happens and all those things come to fruition, we still will not see #5 in the rafters. Just won't happen. And I am one of, if not the biggest fan Mason has.

cptnflash
02-12-2013, 09:15 PM
Great post. One thing all the retired guys have in common is they all made at least 3rd Team All ACC or higher for 3 straight seasons. All made 1st Team All American at least once, and all but Hurley made at least 2nd Team All American or higher in 2 or more seasons. Which is why I feel Mason does not have a shot at retirement. He is already a National Champion, has a great chance at one or more NPOY awards, and if Ryan makes it back and can be effective, Mason will have a fighters chance of a 2nd Title. I still say if the dream season happens and all those things come to fruition, we still will not see #5 in the rafters. Just won't happen. And I am one of, if not the biggest fan Mason has.

I still don't get why anyone believes that Mason could win the NPOY award, graduate, and not have his jersey retired. Does everyone understand that there is literally no precedent for that in Duke basketball history? And that it directly contradicts public statements made by the president of the university? You can talk about subjective criteria all you want... show me the historical exception and then I'll believe you. Until then, I'm going to take President Brodhead and 3+ decades of history as a fairly reliable indicator of what the future holds.

That all being said, I still think Mason has zero chance of winning any of the NPOY awards unless Ryan comes back very, very soon. Mason is now trailing Trey Burke by a mile in both media perception and more quantitative measures (kPOY). Before his two 30 points games, Mason had even fallen off of most people's 1st team All-America lists. He's recovered a little bit, predictably so given the weak schedule we've played over the past few weeks, but he's got a lot of ground to make up and not much time to do it. Plus, Burke is legitimately great and is unlikely to back up to meet him.

DukeDevilDeb
02-12-2013, 09:23 PM
FWIW, Dunleavy did graduate. Boozer did not and probably will not. Do we know that Gerald has not graduated? He was at Duke for three years plus some summer work.

sagegrouse

Dunleavy did graduate, but several years after he left. I should know; I taught him in several courses he came back to finish. Boozer did not and, I agree, will likely not come back. Gerald has not graduated... he was in line to do so, and I still think there is a chance>

Go Devils!

DukeDevilDeb
02-12-2013, 09:28 PM
I made a little list of honors from J Dawkins on.

Retired jerseys:
Reddick 1st team AA(junior, senior), NPOY (junior - Adolph Rupp, senior - unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Dawkins 1st team AA (junior, senior), NPOY (Naismith), ACC teams (2nd - freshman, soph; 1st - junior, senior)
Battier 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), 3x NDPOY, ACC teams (3rd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Laettner 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
Ferry 1st team AA (senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NPOY (Naismith, Oscar Robertson Trophy, United Press), ACC teams (2nd - soph; 1st (POY) - junior, senior)
Hill 1st team AA(senior), 2nd team AA (junior), NDPOY(junior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, 1st (POY) - senior), 2x champ
J Williams 1st team AA(junior), 2nd team AA (sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (3rd - freshman, 1st - soph, 1st (POY) - junior), 1x champ
Hurley 1st team AA (senior), ACC teams (3rd - soph, 2nd - junior, 1st - senior), 2x champ
S Williams 1st team AA(senior), 2x NDPOY, ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ

Close but no cigar:
Brand 1st team AA(sophomore), NPOY (unanimous), ACC teams (1st (POY) - soph), did not graduate
Smith 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (2nd - soph, 1st (POY) - senior), 1x champ
Langdon 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams(1st - soph, junior, senior)
Carrawell 1st team AA(senior), ACC teams (3rd - junior, 1st (POY) - senior)
Singler (3rd - freshman, 2nd - soph, 1st - junior, senior), 1x champ
Scheyer 2nd team AA(senior), ACC teams (1st - senior), 1x champ
Alarie ACC teams(1st - soph, senior; 2nd - soph)




* active player

But could you please spell Redick correctly!? And I don't understand something else. You say that Redick and Williams are 1x champs. Does this refer to national champ? If so, I am almost certain that neither of them won a National Championship. :rolleyes: If this refers to being a champ another way, please clarify.

uh_no
02-12-2013, 10:25 PM
Caught only the part of the interview, but Doug Gottlieb had Mase on his CBS sports radio program at about 5:30 today and Mason, of course, did quite well in the portion I heard. Some of the interesting tidbits I heard were Gottlieb asking about the 2010 beat down at Cameron (Mase: "the guys weren't playing the scoreboard, they were just putting it on [the Heels]"), Austin's final shot last season ("He kept waving everyone off and I was like, you better get the shot up there, man"), how Duke was coping better with RK's loss better this year than we did last year ("We're more balanced this year"), and whether the rematch with Miami was something circled on Duke's calendar ("Um...yeah, we've got that one circled").

Not sure if the interview is available online, but it was a nice one.

(PS: Doug did NOT ask Mason if he considered himself to be "alarmingly unathletic")

as K pointed out, Gottleib knows all there is to know about being alarmingly unathletic....so he wasn't going to learn anything new from mason on that subject ;)

throatybeard
02-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Gottlieb was alarmingly covetous of other people's credit cards. There, I said it.

Shout-out to the poster who quoted the pocket reference. It covers the whole argument, doesn't it?

The national championship really needs to leave this discussion altogether. That's a team accomplishment. I don't see anyone retiring #5 for Ron Burt. Mason's screwed, in that case.

niveklaen
02-13-2013, 07:04 AM
I think Mason's career has been a lot like Parks.

bench role player on title team as a freshman.

2 years as a starting role player with 10/8 type numbers

big senior season - big enough to go lotto in spite of the team's struggles...

Would we retire Parks if they had won it all in '95 (instead of going 13-18...)?

CDu
02-13-2013, 09:24 AM
I think Mason's career has been a lot like Parks.

bench role player on title team as a freshman.

2 years as a starting role player with 10/8 type numbers

big senior season - big enough to go lotto in spite of the team's struggles...

Would we retire Parks if they had won it all in '95 (instead of going 13-18...)?

Exactly. I just don't think it's at all appropriate to retire a jersey based on just one season of greatness. I think one season of greatness is a minimum requirement, but it's not a sufficient requirement.

Delmer
02-24-2013, 08:42 PM
Announcement is 2 days away. Fingers crossed

Kedsy
02-24-2013, 08:45 PM
Announcement is 2 days away. Fingers crossed

What announcement?

Delmer
02-24-2013, 08:54 PM
Naismith award. [url]Www.naismithawards.com[/url

Top30

vick
02-24-2013, 09:25 PM
Naismith award. [url]Www.naismithawards.com[/url

Top30

I will be beyond shocked if Mason doesn't make the cut of the top-30 (if for some reason he doesn't, feel free to blame me for the jinx...). I will cross my fingers anyway, though.

ETA: Actually, it's interesting to look at the original preseason list (http://www.naismithawards.com/PressBox/ArticleView/tabid/209/ArticleId/47/McDermott-and-Zeller-Highlight-2012-2013-Naismith-Early-Season-Watch-List.aspx)...no Oladipo, but McAdoo. Oops.

Delmer
02-24-2013, 09:39 PM
I don't know if the 30 typically come out ranked, or if it just alphabetical.

devil84
02-25-2013, 03:27 PM
I still don't get why anyone believes that Mason could win the NPOY award, graduate, and not have his jersey retired. Does everyone understand that there is literally no precedent for that in Duke basketball history? And that it directly contradicts public statements made by the president of the university? You can talk about subjective criteria all you want... show me the historical exception and then I'll believe you. Until then, I'm going to take President Brodhead and 3+ decades of history as a fairly reliable indicator of what the future holds.

Yes, everyone understands that there is no precedent for winning an NPOY award, graduating, and not having his jersey retired. There's also no precedent for a Duke player who is an NPOY and didn't have at least 3 years of All-ACC honors (usually first and second teams) and all but one have two years of All-American honors. Mason currently has a 3rd team All-ACC and no All-American honors (the two years of Academic All-American count for something, but are not counted the same towards jersey retirement). So, there's literally no precedent for Mason's career. Hence, the discussion.

I'm not sure that the public statements made by the president of the university are really terribly relevant -- they were made during the ceremonies and may have been so noted because that could highlighted some of the strongest criteria that applied to those players. Something else may or may not apply to other players. I guess I'd put a lot more stock in Brodhead's comments if he were the person in charge of jersey retirements, but I'm thinking Coach K has a lot more say.

You're quite welcome to hold your opinion, and others are welcome to theirs. It's pure speculation until (if) it's announced. If you don't enjoy the speculative discussion, you are free to read the other numerous threads. But I'm kind of enjoying reading differing opinions on this topic, as well as the memories of the pantheon of Duke greats.

Gewebe14
02-25-2013, 08:52 PM
But could you please spell Redick correctly!? And I don't understand something else. You say that Redick and Williams are 1x champs. Does this refer to national champ? If so, I am almost certain that neither of them won a National Championship. :rolleyes: If this refers to being a champ another way, please clarify.

They are Champs in my book!

niveklaen
02-26-2013, 08:09 AM
Yes, everyone understands that there is no precedent for winning an NPOY award, graduating, and not having his jersey retired. There's also no precedent for a Duke player who is an NPOY and didn't have at least 3 years of All-ACC honors (usually first and second teams) and all but one have two years of All-American honors. Mason currently has a 3rd team All-ACC and no All-American honors (the two years of Academic All-American count for something, but are not counted the same towards jersey retirement). So, there's literally no precedent for Mason's career. Hence, the discussion.

I'm not sure that the public statements made by the president of the university are really terribly relevant -- they were made during the ceremonies and may have been so noted because that could highlighted some of the strongest criteria that applied to those players. Something else may or may not apply to other players. I guess I'd put a lot more stock in Brodhead's comments if he were the person in charge of jersey retirements, but I'm thinking Coach K has a lot more say.

You're quite welcome to hold your opinion, and others are welcome to theirs. It's pure speculation until (if) it's announced. If you don't enjoy the speculative discussion, you are free to read the other numerous threads. But I'm kind of enjoying reading differing opinions on this topic, as well as the memories of the pantheon of Duke greats.

Did Brand win some POY awards? If he came back and got his degree now would Duke then retire his number?

devil84
02-26-2013, 08:39 AM
Did Brand win some POY awards? If he came back and got his degree now would Duke then retire his number?

I don't know. I think there are a lot of "it depends." And it mostly depends on whether he comes back to graduate. Until then, it's not happening.

ChillinDuke
02-26-2013, 09:48 AM
I don't know. I think there are a lot of "it depends." And it mostly depends on whether he comes back to graduate. Until then, it's not happening.

Yeah, I really don't get these jersey retirement debates. It's not cut and dry. Why must it be so?

It's a clearly subjective determination. There are no rules.

- Chillin

wgl1228
02-28-2013, 04:08 PM
Disappointed that Olidipo, Porter, and Burke and getting all the buzz right now. Mason has been a steady beast except for the Maryland game and had to shoulder the load after Kelly's absence. Hopefully he puts together a few monster games to finish out. He deserves NPOY.

vick
02-28-2013, 04:55 PM
Disappointed that Olidipo, Porter, and Burke and getting all the buzz right now. Mason has been a steady beast except for the Maryland game and had to shoulder the load after Kelly's absence. Hopefully he puts together a few monster games to finish out. He deserves NPOY.

The ESPN article that prompted the 'All Time Coach K' team also had a straw poll (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8993237/do-regular-season-championships-matter-college-basketball) of five of their writers (scoring appears to be on a 1st place 10 points, 2nd place 9, etc. down to 10th place with 1):

1. Victor Oladipo, Indiana - 49 (4)
2. Trey Burke, Michigan - 46 (1)
3. Kelly Olynyk, Gonzaga - 37
4. Otto Porter, Georgetown - 28
5. Marcus Smart, Oklahoma State - 21
6. Cody Zeller, Indiana - 20
7. Doug McDermott, Creighton - 19
8. Mason Plumlee, Duke - 12
9. Shane Larkin, Miami - 9
10. Deshaun Thomas, Ohio State - 7
11. Jeff Withey, Kansas - 5
12. Ben McLemore, Kansas - 4
12. Jamaal Franklin, San Diego State - 4
14. Seth Curry, Duke - 3
14. Mike Muscala, Bucknell - 3
14. Erick Green, Virginia Tech - 3
17. Kendall Williams, New Mexico - 2
17. Patric Young, Florida - 2
19. Nate Wolters, South Dakota State - 1

I'll be honest--that's probably a bit above where I'd have Seth on the season as a whole, although he's played really well lately. Mason...well, I think that's in the ballpark, really. I hope he turns it on and regains his early-season form (and we've certainly seen flashes of it even in the absence of Kelly), but I'd be hard pressed to say that he's performed better over the entire season than Burke or Oladipo. Obviously I hope that changes, but that's just my view.

uh_no
02-28-2013, 05:11 PM
Disappointed that Olidipo, Porter, and Burke and getting all the buzz right now. Mason has been a steady beast except for the Maryland game and had to shoulder the load after Kelly's absence. Hopefully he puts together a few monster games to finish out. He deserves NPOY.

While he certainly been very good, and altogether a steady producer, he has too many games where he has trouble producing....enough that i wouldn't call him a steady beast.

vs clemson: 8pts, 6TOs
vs FSU: 8pts 5 boards
vs maryland, 4pts, 3 boards

Again, I'm not trying to put him down, he's had a phenomenal year, for goodness sakes. I'm just trying to be realistic in that while being mostly consistent, and being beastly in several games, there are some games which are somewhat more mediocre than one would like out of an NPOY candidate.

sagegrouse
02-28-2013, 05:33 PM
While he certainly been very good, and altogether a steady producer, he has too many games where he has trouble producing....enough that i wouldn't call him a steady beast.

vs clemson: 8pts, 6TOs
vs FSU: 8pts 5 boards
vs maryland, 4pts, 3 boards

Again, I'm not trying to put him down, he's had a phenomenal year, for goodness sakes. I'm just trying to be realistic in that while being mostly consistent, and being beastly in several games, there are some games which are somewhat more mediocre than one would like out of an NPOY candidate.

uh_no: While we are usually joined at the hip, let me note that Mason's results depend on how the opponent defenses him. If it doubles down, then the shots go to the guards, and his numbers suffer. If they play him straight up, he usually has a very strong game.

sagegrouse

vick
02-28-2013, 05:50 PM
uh_no: While we are usually joined at the hip, let me note that Mason's results depend on how the opponent defenses him. If it doubles down, then the shots go to the guards, and his numbers suffer. If they play him straight up, he usually has a very strong game.

sagegrouse

In fairness to uh_no, he still used a fair number of possessions in two of those games (ORtgs from Kenpom, season average is 113):

Clemson, 3-9 FG, 2-4 FT, 6 TO (73 ORtg)
Maryland, 2-7 FG, 0-2 FT, 2 TO (63 ORtg)

The FSU game was a whole different ballgame, because he only shot four times. The Miami game is also one where he used up a ton of possessions (5-15 FG, 5-10 FT, 4 TO for a 74 ORtg).

None of that should mean he's out of the discussion for POY (though I wouldn't award it to him now), all players have bad games, but if it's going to happen, he needs to react to defenses more like he did against FSU than Clemson or Maryland (you would also hope his defense is more consistent).

ChillinDuke
02-28-2013, 08:26 PM
The ESPN article that prompted the 'All Time Coach K' team also had a straw poll (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8993237/do-regular-season-championships-matter-college-basketball) of five of their writers (scoring appears to be on a 1st place 10 points, 2nd place 9, etc. down to 10th place with 1):

1. Victor Oladipo, Indiana - 49 (4)
2. Trey Burke, Michigan - 46 (1)
3. Kelly Olynyk, Gonzaga - 37
4. Otto Porter, Georgetown - 28
5. Marcus Smart, Oklahoma State - 21
6. Cody Zeller, Indiana - 20
7. Doug McDermott, Creighton - 19
8. Mason Plumlee, Duke - 12
9. Shane Larkin, Miami - 9
10. Deshaun Thomas, Ohio State - 7
11. Jeff Withey, Kansas - 5
12. Ben McLemore, Kansas - 4
12. Jamaal Franklin, San Diego State - 4
14. Seth Curry, Duke - 3
14. Mike Muscala, Bucknell - 3
14. Erick Green, Virginia Tech - 3
17. Kendall Williams, New Mexico - 2
17. Patric Young, Florida - 2
19. Nate Wolters, South Dakota State - 1

I'll be honest--that's probably a bit above where I'd have Seth on the season as a whole, although he's played really well lately. Mason...well, I think that's in the ballpark, really. I hope he turns it on and regains his early-season form (and we've certainly seen flashes of it even in the absence of Kelly), but I'd be hard pressed to say that he's performed better over the entire season than Burke or Oladipo. Obviously I hope that changes, but that's just my view.

Listen, I don't think Mason should or will get NPOY either. But #8 seems low to me. I'd probably have him around #4 or #5.

For comparison -
#7 McDermott is averaging 22.8, 7.7, and 1.7 (pts, rebs, asts) on just under 55% shooting. Negligible steals and blocks. 86% FT.
#6 Zeller is averaging 16.3, 8.1, and 1.2 on 57.5%. 1.1 and 1.3 in steals and blocks, respectively. 76% FT.
#5 Smart is at 14.7, 5.6, 4.4 on 40%. 2.9 and 0.8. 78%.

#8 Plumlee is at 17.5, 10.7, and 2.0 on 59.6%. 1.0 and 1.6. 66%

So comparing him to those ranked above him, Mase is #2 in scoring, #1 in rebounding (by a huge margin), and #2 in assists. He shoots the best percentage (granted, Smart is a guard - hard to compare). #3 in steals (again - Smart being a guard). And #1 in blocks (by a decent margin). #4 in free throws - but you already figured that.

Not to mention he's carrying a potential #1 seed that has been in the Top 5 throughout the entire year (Zeller can claim this as well - although Oladipo is one of the front-runners for NPOY from the same team).

You can debate these numbers until your blue in the face, and teeter and totter on which considerations deserve more weight. But no way Plumlee is behind all three of these guys if I'm filling out a ballot.

I have no problem with Oladipo and Burke being front-runners. Olynyk is deserving, if for no other reason than how good Gonzaga has been all year. Porter has carried G'Town - to be sure.

After those four, I have Plumlee. I mean, his numbers are better than #6 Zeller in almost every category (not free throws, almost equal in steals).

- Chillin

superdave
02-28-2013, 08:32 PM
Mason will be the starting C on the All-America teams. Zeller will be 2nd team. So Mason absolutely belongs in the top 5 of any well-considered list.

Mason's best chance at gaining NPOY votes between now and voting is for Duke to win. We may very well win every game between now and the NPOY voting. If we win our next 7-8 games, and no one else does, Mason will be in the conversation.

superdave
02-28-2013, 10:24 PM
Prime time game. Showed up weak. Stick a pin in this one.

gcashwell
02-28-2013, 11:06 PM
Curry should be POY. Assassin.

buddy
02-28-2013, 11:27 PM
Can we kill this thread. Mason does have the whatever to impose his will on the road. I vote for Akil Mitchell, because he ate Mason's lunch tonight. And Seth can't get to the hoop, so stick a fork in that one also.

mgtr
02-28-2013, 11:33 PM
Can we kill this thread. Mason does have the whatever to impose his will on the road. I vote for Akil Mitchell, because he ate Mason's lunch tonight. And Seth can't get to the hoop, so stick a fork in that one also.

I sure hope you meant to put a not in the second sentence! Otherwise, ???

davekay1971
02-28-2013, 11:34 PM
Can we kill this thread. Mason does have the whatever to impose his will on the road. I vote for Akil Mitchell, because he ate Mason's lunch tonight. And Seth can't get to the hoop, so stick a fork in that one also.

I guess I hallucinated Seth's nice drive-and finish moves tonight. That's possible. My mind was certainly fighting against what I was actually seeing on screen. You're probably right and Seth got his 28 by hobbling around 25 feet from the basket.

HCheek37
03-01-2013, 10:34 AM
RIP to Mason's NPOY candidacy. He'll be lucky to get 1st team AA with Olynyk and Zeller out there.

A lack of true post moves, defensive rebounding and physicality have doomed him in tough games where he does not get alley-oops, fast break or scramble points.

sagegrouse
03-01-2013, 10:59 AM
RIP to Mason's NPOY candidacy. He'll be lucky to get 1st team AA with Olynyk and Zeller out there.

A lack of true post moves, defensive rebounding and physicality have doomed him in tough games where he does not get alley-oops, fast break or scramble points.

Or the refs let the opponents mug him. -- sage

CDu
03-01-2013, 11:14 AM
RIP to Mason's NPOY candidacy. He'll be lucky to get 1st team AA with Olynyk and Zeller out there.

His numbers are still better than Zeller's or Olynyk's numbers. He'll still be a 1st Team All-American. He just has really hurt his chances for Player of the Year.

Ichabod Drain
03-01-2013, 11:19 AM
His numbers are still better than Zeller's or Olynyk's numbers. He'll still be a 1st Team All-American. He just has really hurt his chances for Player of the Year.

Im not sure he'll be a first team all american... he's 8th in the NPOY voting right now.

CDu
03-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Im not sure he'll be a first team all american... he's 8th in the NPOY voting right now.

No, he's 8th in ESPN's straw poll vote (with an N of only 5). I wouldn't take that too seriously as a reflection of what the actual vote will be.

vick
03-01-2013, 11:42 AM
No, he's 8th in ESPN's straw poll vote (with an N of only 5). I wouldn't take that too seriously as a reflection of what the actual vote will be.

Yeah, I'm the one who posted it and I wouldn't go that far (though it's probably pretty close to my own views). For what it's worth, ESPN did a much wider (but less deep--each person only picking top 3) straw poll a week before that and Mason was fourth (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/76785/oladipo-keeps-pace-in-poy-straw-poll). I don't think he's a lock for first-team--in my view Oladipo and Burke are the only two locks right now--but I think he's in decent position if he closes the season reasonably strong.

mapei
03-01-2013, 12:39 PM
Pre-Ryan's injury, Mason was a lock for first team AA and a front-runner for NPOY. Amazingly strong first half of the season. But since then, he hasn't been able to shine nearly as much and has looked awful in a couple of big games. I now think first team AA is iffy and NPOY out of the question unless Mason has a spectacular showing from here on out - e.g., Miami will be a closely watched game. If Mase dominates that game and is the difference-maker in a Duke win, then he will get back in the conversation. But that's the kind of thing it will take. Being just "very good" won't be enough.

Ichabod Drain
03-01-2013, 01:03 PM
No, he's 8th in ESPN's straw poll vote (with an N of only 5). I wouldn't take that too seriously as a reflection of what the actual vote will be.

I would say it's a decent representation of the overall feel people have for him now. If he doesn't have a monster game saturday he will probably drop even farther. Hopefully IF Kelly can come back strong and Mason can play at the level he was earlier in the season. But there is not a lot of time left.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 01:22 PM
Pre-Ryan's injury, Mason was a lock for first team AA and a front-runner for NPOY. Amazingly strong first half of the season. But since then, he hasn't been able to shine nearly as much and has looked awful in a couple of big games. I now think first team AA is iffy and NPOY out of the question unless Mason has a spectacular showing from here on out - e.g., Miami will be a closely watched game. If Mase dominates that game and is the difference-maker in a Duke win, then he will get back in the conversation. But that's the kind of thing it will take. Being just "very good" won't be enough.

Mason has shown he can dominate a one-on-one matchup and has issues when double- or triple-teamed. Can anyone show me a big man in college this season who doesn't have such issues?

Wander
03-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Mason has shown he can dominate a one-on-one matchup and has issues when double- or triple-teamed. Can anyone show me a big man in college this season who doesn't have such issues?

There isn't one, at least that I know of. Which is part of the reason a center probably won't win national player of the year.

Plumlee's not completely out of it, but like a team behind by multiple games in their conference standings, he doesn't "control his own destiny" anymore. I think Burke would have to have a few bad games in a row for Mason to realistically get back in it (in addition to Mason playing very well for the remainder of the season).

But, 1st team AA is definitely still within reach. No reason to think otherwise, but, yes, he probably needs to play better than he did at UVA or Maryland (which I'm pretty sure he will).

bronston22
03-01-2013, 03:02 PM
When Kelly returns, Mason's life will be a lot easier. Kelly occupies bigger defenders on the perimeter. He also wears them out over the course of a game. Mason will have more space with Ryan back in the line up. Mason's game is great when he is not crowded but like any big man who does not have a lights out shot, he can be bottled up.

buddy
03-01-2013, 05:51 PM
I guess I hallucinated Seth's nice drive-and finish moves tonight. That's possible. My mind was certainly fighting against what I was actually seeing on screen. You're probably right and Seth got his 28 by hobbling around 25 feet from the basket.

Sorry it took me so long to get back. Seth had 5 in the first half, and 11 at the 10 minute mark of the second half. At that time Duke was down 13. He had 17 in the last 10 minutes. His stat line looks good, but it was too little too late. Glad he got so many, but had he had 17 in the first ten minutes the outcome would have been different. My point was that when the game was in doubt, Seth was invisible. I understand you may disagree. We had opportunities in the first half to take a lead and cause Virginia some pain. We didn't take them.

And yes, I did mean to say that Mason could NOT impose his will on Mitchell.

Kedsy
03-01-2013, 06:28 PM
Sorry it took me so long to get back. Seth had 5 in the first half, and 11 at the 10 minute mark of the second half. At that time Duke was down 13. He had 17 in the last 10 minutes. His stat line looks good, but it was too little too late. Glad he got so many, but had he had 17 in the first ten minutes the outcome would have been different. My point was that when the game was in doubt, Seth was invisible.

Seth was our 2nd leading scorer in the first half, including a huge three to bring us within 1 point late in the half. He then hit another big three to start the 2nd half to bring us within 2, and when he scored his 11th point with 14 minutes to play in the game, he had more points than any other Duke player in the game, having contributed 35.5% of our scoring up to that moment. I'd hardly call that invisible. Then he went on a tear, scoring 17 points in the last ten minutes, single-handedly keeping us in the game until the last moments.

vick
03-07-2013, 03:14 PM
ESPN released another straw poll of 64 voters (on a 3-2-1 scoring format), with the following leaders (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/78304/poy-chase-comes-down-to-stretch-run.html?pagewanted=all):

Trey Burke, So., G, Michigan 122
Otto Porter, So., F, Georgetown 86
Victor Oladipo, Jr., G, Indiana 77
Doug McDermott, Jr., F, Creighton 47
Kelly Olynyk, Jr., F, Gonzaga 27
Mason Plumlee, Sr., F, Duke 10
Marcus Smart, Fr., G, Oklahoma State 4
Ben McLemore, Fr., G, Kansas 3
Deshaun Thomas, Jr., F, Ohio State 2
Nate Wolters, Sr., G, South Dakota State 2
Cody Zeller, So., F, Indiana 2
Anthony Bennett, Fr., F, UNLV 1
Jeff Withey, Sr., C, Kansas 1

Very tough for me to quibble with the top 4. Olynyk has been extremely efficient but doesn't even play 26 MPG--not all his fault, of course, but I wonder how efficient Mason would be if he had that luxury (especially at the defensive end). I agree with the poll's implication that the last first-team all-American spot will come down to those two barring someone making a great late run. Hopefully Mason has a big game on McAdoo (well I hope for it because that will really help our team, but individual recognition is nice too) on the national stage to take control of that spot.

luvdahops
03-07-2013, 03:52 PM
ESPN released another straw poll of 64 voters (on a 3-2-1 scoring format), with the following leaders (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/78304/poy-chase-comes-down-to-stretch-run.html?pagewanted=all):

Trey Burke, So., G, Michigan 122
Otto Porter, So., F, Georgetown 86
Victor Oladipo, Jr., G, Indiana 77
Doug McDermott, Jr., F, Creighton 47
Kelly Olynyk, Jr., F, Gonzaga 27
Mason Plumlee, Sr., F, Duke 10
Marcus Smart, Fr., G, Oklahoma State 4
Ben McLemore, Fr., G, Kansas 3
Deshaun Thomas, Jr., F, Ohio State 2
Nate Wolters, Sr., G, South Dakota State 2
Cody Zeller, So., F, Indiana 2
Anthony Bennett, Fr., F, UNLV 1
Jeff Withey, Sr., C, Kansas 1

Very tough for me to quibble with the top 4. Olynyk has been extremely efficient but doesn't even play 26 MPG--not all his fault, of course, but I wonder how efficient Mason would be if he had that luxury (especially at the defensive end). I agree with the poll's implication that the last first-team all-American spot will come down to those two barring someone making a great late run. Hopefully Mason has a big game on McAdoo (well I hope for it because that will really help our team, but individual recognition is nice too) on the national stage to take control of that spot.

It would be nice for Mason to have a really big game Saturday for a variety of reasons. In addition to the ones you mention, it has been awhile since he had a really dominant game, and who better to have one against than the Heels? The Dean Dome was also the site of a few highlight reel plays from his truncated freshman year (who can forget the up and under reverse slam after an offensive board?), so it would be only fitting to bookend that performance with a huge game on Saturday. Finally, it could just be me, but after watching him the past few weeks, it sure seems like Mason could use an emotional charge as we head into the postseason.

Saratoga2
03-07-2013, 04:22 PM
What Mason needs is to play hard for the full time he is in the game. Let him use his fouls defending and avoid fouling on the offensive end. If Mason shows the spark against UNC, then he can at least be in the top 5 or 6. His game against Maryland was what hurt him the most. Coach K needs to turn him loose.

pamtar
03-10-2013, 05:32 PM
Quick question: Is the NPOY based on performance in the regular season AND the conference tournaments, or only the regular season? The google and the wiki were vague.