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View Full Version : Holiday Tournaments - Coach K Best Ever?



Bostondevil
11-25-2012, 12:52 AM
My brother just voiced the opinion that Coach K is by far the best holiday tournament coach of all time. I agree with him but if anybody has the numbers to back it up, I'd love to see them.

Wander
11-25-2012, 12:53 AM
If the NCAA tournament were held in November, Duke would have somewhere between 10 and 20 national championships.

sporthenry
11-25-2012, 12:57 AM
If the NCAA tournament were held in November, Duke would have somewhere between 10 and 20 national championships.

Not sure if this is good or bad. Good being obviously we play well but bad being that we peak early or let other teams close the gap.

I think the one thing this does show is how well K can game plan without any actual practice.

juise
11-25-2012, 01:00 AM
If the NCAA tournament were held in November, Duke would have somewhere between 10 and 20 national championships.

I have been thinking this for the last couple weeks. I thought last year's team was going to be a contender after Maui. We just have to let each team run its own race.

Furniture
11-25-2012, 01:04 AM
This was a MUCH better win than last year on so many levels!

Cameron
11-25-2012, 01:13 AM
With winning this year's Battle 4 Atlantis championship over the toughest early-season tourney field in the entire country, Duke has now won six consecutive major, early season tournament championships: 2011 Maui, 2010 CBE Classic, 2009 NIT Season Tip Off, 2008 2K Sports Classic, 2007 Maui.

Coach K is simply one of the best tournament prep coaches in the history of the game, and certainly unrivaled among his peers today, with four national titles and 11 Final Fours.

Blue KevIL
11-25-2012, 01:39 AM
Pre-Season Tournaments (since 1985):

Pre-Season NIT (6 appearances): 22-2 (4 Championships 85, 00, 05, 09; 1 Runner-Up 96; 1 Third Place 90
Rainbow Classic (2 appearances): 5-1 (1 Championship 89; 1 Fifth Place 94 [note: last game Coach K coached during 94-95 Season])
Maui Invitational (5 appearances): 16-0 (5 Championships 92, 97, 01, 07, 11)
Alaska Shootout (3 appearances): 7-2 (1 Championship 95; 2 Runners-Up 98, 03)
CBE Classic (2 appearances): 7-1 (1 Championship 10; 1 Runner-Up 06)
2K Sports Clasic (1 appearance): 4-0 (1 Championship 08)
Battle 4 Atlantis (1 appearance): 3-0 (1 Championship 12)
Coaches Vs Cancer (1 appearance): 0-2 (1 Fourth Place 99)

Total Tournament Record: 64-8 (21 appearances) 14 Championships, 4 Runners-Up, 1 Third Place, 1 Fourth Place, 1 Fifth Place
Years Duke did not participate in a pre-season tourney: 86, 87, 88, 91, 93, 02 & 04 (7 seasons)



This does not account for the following high-profile in-season events:

ACC/Big Ten Challenge: 11-2
Big East / ACC Challenge: 1-2
Great Eight: 1-1
Jimmy V Classic: 2-0
Hall of Fame Tip-Off: 1-0
Wooden Classic: 1-0
Wooden Tradition: 1-0
Dreyfus Classic: 2-0
Champions Classic: 2-0


Total Record: 22-5



Combined: 86-13

-bdbd
11-25-2012, 01:41 AM
This was a MUCH better win than last year on so many levels!

I too worry about Duke teams that can seem to often peak way too early -- we've all seen it in recent years -- only to fizzle in March. But you are right that this year's Novemeber tournament win was much better on several levels, most having to do with individual player ongoing development and improving confidence, such as Cook, MP2, Rasheed, and the ongoing steadiness of Ryan Kelly, TT and Seth Curry. This TEAM seems to really like playing together and trust each other better than last year as well. Great to see -- and very encouraging relative to years past.

:D

Olympic Fan
11-25-2012, 01:48 AM
Well, let's see ... K's record in in-season tournaments (year is year tournament is played, almost always in Niovember or December):

1980 Big Four Tournament ... 0-2 (fourth place)
1980 Iron Duke Classic ... 2-0 CHAMPIONS
1980 Sugar Bowl ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1981 Iron Duke Classic ... 1-1 (third place)
1983 Rainbow Classic ... 2-1 (fifth place)
1984 Trojan Bud Light Classic ... 2-0 CHAMPIONS
1985 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
1986 BYU Thanksgiving Classic ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1987 Fiesta Bowl Classic ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1989 Rainbow Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1990 Preseason NIT ... 3-1 (third place)
1992 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1994 Rainbow Classic ... 2-1 (fifth place)
1995 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1996 Preseason NIT ... 3-1 (runnerup)
1997 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1998 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 2-1 (runnerup)
1999 Coaches vs. Cancer Classic ... 0-2 fourth place)
2000 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2001 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2003 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 2-1 (runnerup)
2005 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2006 CBE Classic ... 3-1 (runnerup)
2007 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2008 Coaches vs. Cancer Classic ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2009 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2010 CBE Classic ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2011 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2012 Battle for Atlantis ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS

I make that 16 championships in 29 events -- including the last six in a row. K's overall record in in-season tournaments is 73-15. Best win is probably over No. 1 Arizona in the 1997 Maui Classic ... best tourney win is probably the first preseason NIT -- Duke had gto beat a food Lamar team and a very tough UAB team (ranked 16th) in Houston, then go to New York and beat No. 18 St. John's (which would wind up the No. 1 seed in the East in the NCAA Tournament) and No. 5 Kansas, which would make the Final Four. The fourth team in that NIT Final Gour was Louisville, which would win the national championship -- THAT was a field -- three eventual Final Gour teams and a No. 1 seed that was esentially playing on its home court!

sporthenry
11-25-2012, 02:00 AM
Well, let's see ... K's record in in-season tournaments (year is year tournament is played, almost always in Niovember or December):

1980 Big Four Tournament ... 0-2 (fourth place)
1980 Iron Duke Classic ... 2-0 CHAMPIONS
1980 Sugar Bowl ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1981 Iron Duke Classic ... 1-1 (third place)
1983 Rainbow Classic ... 2-1 (fifth place)
1984 Trojan Bud Light Classic ... 2-0 CHAMPIONS
1985 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
1986 BYU Thanksgiving Classic ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1987 Fiesta Bowl Classic ... 1-1 (runnerup)
1989 Rainbow Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1990 Preseason NIT ... 3-1 (third place)
1992 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1994 Rainbow Classic ... 2-1 (fifth place)
1995 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1996 Preseason NIT ... 3-1 (runnerup)
1997 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
1998 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 2-1 (runnerup)
1999 Coaches vs. Cancer Classic ... 0-2 fourth place)
2000 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2001 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2003 Great Alaskan Shootout ... 2-1 (runnerup)
2005 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2006 CBE Classic ... 3-1 (runnerup)
2007 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2008 Coaches vs. Cancer Classic ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2009 Preseason NIT ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2010 CBE Classic ... 4-0 CHAMPIONS
2011 Maui Classic ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS
2012 Battle for Atlantis ... 3-0 CHAMPIONS

I make that 16 championships in 29 events -- including the last six in a row. K's overall record in in-season tournaments is 73-15. Best win is probably over No. 1 Arizona in the 1997 Maui Classic ... best tourney win is probably the first preseason NIT -- Duke had gto beat a food Lamar team and a very tough UAB team (ranked 16th) in Houston, then go to New York and beat No. 18 St. John's (which would wind up the No. 1 seed in the East in the NCAA Tournament) and No. 5 Kansas, which would make the Final Four. The fourth team in that NIT Final Gour was Louisville, which would win the national championship -- THAT was a field -- three eventual Final Gour teams and a No. 1 seed that was esentially playing on its home court!

Whatever happened to the Alaskan Shootout. I checked and noticed it still went on but with a very lackluster field. Used to be one of my favorites and if I remember right up there with the Maui Classic or Preseason NIT. Those 2 are probably the best tourneys but it appears tourneys like Paradise Jam, Battle 4 Atlantis and the CBE classic (which isn't a tournament in the strictest sense) have passed the Great Alaskan Shootout.

Blue KevIL
11-25-2012, 02:17 AM
Whatever happened to the Alaskan Shootout.

ESPN stopped televising it, therefore, the Great Alaska Shootout lost its relevance.
The G.A.S. actually pre-dates Maui (1978 vs 1984); these were the two events that got things started.

Louisville may have set a dangerous precedent this year: they bailed out of their committment to Maui to participate in Atlantis.
The main reason was the guaranteed $2 million appearance fee. Other reasons included easier travel and a similar time zone.
Marquette replaced Louisville in the Maui field. I truly hope Maui doesn't go the way of the G.A.S.

Wander
11-25-2012, 11:07 AM
Not sure if this is good or bad. Good being obviously we play well but bad being that we peak early or let other teams close the gap.

I think the one thing this does show is how well K can game plan without any actual practice.

I think there are a few things going on here:

1. Like you say, K's tactical advantage is increased when both coaches have a very short amount of time to prepare.
2. Duke kids are very well-conditioned, even compared to other teams.
3. Coach K typically does very well with experienced teams and not-as-well with inexperienced teams (our worst two teams in the past decade have been our two most inexperienced teams, our best team was our most experienced). And I think Duke has experienced teams more often than most other comparable programs, which I would imagine tends to help relatively more in the early season.
4. K is a better motivator than most (all?) other coaches in the game, and he does a good job convincing the kids of the importance of games other than NCAA tournament games. Everyone thinks NCAA tournament games are important without any motivation so this advantage is lessened somewhat in March.

Note also that Coach K has been unusually great in the ACC tournament (reasons 1, 2, and 4 apply), and has been much better in Elite 8 games than in Sweet 16 games (reasons 1 and 2 directly apply).

sporthenry
11-25-2012, 01:55 PM
I think there are a few things going on here:

1. Like you say, K's tactical advantage is increased when both coaches have a very short amount of time to prepare.
2. Duke kids are very well-conditioned, even compared to other teams.
3. Coach K typically does very well with experienced teams and not-as-well with inexperienced teams (our worst two teams in the past decade have been our two most inexperienced teams, our best team was our most experienced). And I think Duke has experienced teams more often than most other comparable programs, which I would imagine tends to help relatively more in the early season.
4. K is a better motivator than most (all?) other coaches in the game, and he does a good job convincing the kids of the importance of games other than NCAA tournament games. Everyone thinks NCAA tournament games are important without any motivation so this advantage is lessened somewhat in March.

Note also that Coach K has been unusually great in the ACC tournament (reasons 1, 2, and 4 apply), and has been much better in Elite 8 games than in Sweet 16 games (reasons 1 and 2 directly apply).

The thing I've thought most about is #2. For years we've worried about the length of our rotation and the amount of time our best players logged. Perhaps, this has become more of an advantage. It still scares me with players like Singler/Scheyer who logged over 35 minutes consistently but maybe the short rest in the NCAA tourney actual helps Duke. I still think #1 probably most applies in these short term but #2 has some credibility and I remember the story about JJ running 7 miles a day before his senior year.

freshmanjs
11-25-2012, 04:20 PM
I too worry about Duke teams that can seem to often peak way too early -- we've all seen it in recent years -- only to fizzle in March. But you are right that this year's Novemeber tournament win was much better on several levels, most having to do with individual player ongoing development and improving confidence, such as Cook, MP2, Rasheed, and the ongoing steadiness of Ryan Kelly, TT and Seth Curry. This TEAM seems to really like playing together and trust each other better than last year as well. Great to see -- and very encouraging relative to years past.

:D

i don't know...this seems like revisionist history to me. after maui last year, we were all very excited about the potential we saw from rivers, the great (surprise) contributions from thornton, and the improvement of kelly.

Mike Corey
11-25-2012, 04:27 PM
Coach K is talking about this team's great chemistry, togetherness, etc.

That's as good a sign as any, I'd say, that we're in a position of strength.

77devil
11-25-2012, 05:21 PM
Whatever happened to the Alaskan Shootout. I checked and noticed it still went on but with a very lackluster field. Used to be one of my favorites and if I remember right up there with the Maui Classic or Preseason NIT. Those 2 are probably the best tourneys but it appears tourneys like Paradise Jam, Battle 4 Atlantis and the CBE classic (which isn't a tournament in the strictest sense) have passed the Great Alaskan Shootout.

Who wants to go to Alaska in November when there are now so many options closer to home or in the tropics? The Shootout has been supplanted.

77devil
11-25-2012, 05:28 PM
I think there are a few things going on here:

1. Like you say, K's tactical advantage is increased when both coaches have a very short amount of time to prepare.
2. Duke kids are very well-conditioned, even compared to other teams.
3. Coach K typically does very well with experienced teams and not-as-well with inexperienced teams (our worst two teams in the past decade have been our two most inexperienced teams, our best team was our most experienced). And I think Duke has experienced teams more often than most other comparable programs, which I would imagine tends to help relatively more in the early season.
4. K is a better motivator than most (all?) other coaches in the game, and he does a good job convincing the kids of the importance of games other than NCAA tournament games. Everyone thinks NCAA tournament games are important without any motivation so this advantage is lessened somewhat in March.

Note also that Coach K has been unusually great in the ACC tournament (reasons 1, 2, and 4 apply), and has been much better in Elite 8 games than in Sweet 16 games (reasons 1 and 2 directly apply).

These are all valid points but I will add one other. K keeps a lid on the extracurricular night life during the tournaments. The others not as much. I saw lots of the other team's players in the casino after midnight, and occasionally much later.

kingboozer
11-25-2012, 07:36 PM
While I was looking at some of the photos of last nights game I couldn't help but wonder, where are these trophy's? I know they don't have them on display in the hall of fame but think it'd be really great to see some of these holiday tournament trophy's up close!

-bdbd
11-25-2012, 08:52 PM
i don't know...this seems like revisionist history to me. after maui last year, we were all very excited about the potential we saw from rivers, the great (surprise) contributions from thornton, and the improvement of kelly.

Fair enough. Many here were expecting great things last year after the Maui win. While I can't speak for everyone else, I personally didn't feel all of that comfortable coming out of Maui last year. Yes, WINNING was absolutely better than LOSING. ;) I'm sure that we were all pleased to that end. But our winning in Hawaii didn't quite seem preordained, hinging on some key plays at key stretch moments -- I've heard others use the word "lucky." Certainly Thornton's 3-point desperate shot as the clock was expiring was, um, fortunate. And while I too was impressed by Rivers' early-season performance, it wasn't like as much of TEAM excellence as this year. This year, while Murphy's situation is still concerning, and I think MP2 can still improve (especially on help-D behind the guards), I personally think this year's overall team showing is more encouraging than Maui was.... Cook is showing critical early-season confidence/assertiveness and playing decent D, MP2 clearly has upped his game another notch (and can you believe that FT improvement - wow!), Rasheed is contributing as much as a frosh as could realistically have been expected, and most of all I just sense better chemistry/team cohesion than last year.

Certainly it is way too early to be buying tix to the Final Four just yet, but personally I am feeling better than I was a year ago. :D

Bostondevil
11-26-2012, 01:05 PM
Many, many thanks to Blue Kevil and OlympicFan! Just what I wanted. Thanks for doing the work I was too lazy to do for myself!