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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 76, Louisville 71 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-24-2012, 11:47 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

uh_no
11-24-2012, 11:48 PM
we best be getting some #1 votes monday.....

mapei
11-24-2012, 11:48 PM
Tough, close, well-played game.

moonpie23
11-24-2012, 11:48 PM
awesome win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

go duke!

Les Grossman
11-24-2012, 11:49 PM
Quinn and Sheed are very impressive
handling those two senior guards of L'ville was no easy assignment

subzero02
11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
We will definitely get some #1 votes... I want to see what kenpom looks like though

sporthenry
11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
Well hopefully this Duke team isn't peaking too early but so far this team has exceeded expectations. Duke is a good team and hopefully K will turn them into a great team.

FerryFor50
11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
Gutty tournament win.

Played 3 solid games against solid opponents. Did the Kentucky Two-Step by taking out UK and L'ville in the same year.

One more big test against OSU this week. I like Duke's chances...

This team has chemistry and some real fortitude. Going to be a fun season!

sagegrouse
11-24-2012, 11:50 PM
Classic, gut-it-out Duke win. We didn't make any outside shots in the last ten minutes, but got some key baskets towards the end on layups and Quinn's short jumper. Free throw shooting -- Wow!

Congratulations to the team.

sagegrouse

mapei
11-24-2012, 11:51 PM
Tough to pick a MOTM tonight - different players at different points in the game were key.

chaosmage
11-24-2012, 11:51 PM
This team has the potential to accomplish great things this year. The chemistry is good, and the seniors definitely are the leaders. Watching them settle the team down after bad calls made that clear. I am going to schedule all my band practices and performances around this team (which I try to anyway), but this year it is definite.

Was proud of the guys and their will to win. Go DUKE!!

Utley
11-24-2012, 11:52 PM
Couldn't be happier with the team. Quinn, Mason and Rasheed all playing better than I expected. Any chance we can move the NCAA tourney up to November?

Gthoma2a
11-24-2012, 11:53 PM
This is a team of men. There isn't a guy that we put out there that the game is too big for at this point. That is a HUGE statement this early in the season. If we beat OSU Wednesday, then we are beyond special. That would mean we are inhuman!

RoyalBlue08
11-24-2012, 11:53 PM
A lot of character on this team. I love the confident look in the guys eyes down the stretch. I love how Quinn owned the opportunity to take that big shot. Low ceiling in that place for fireworks, no?

HateCarolina
11-24-2012, 11:54 PM
I am ABSOLUTELY STOKED about this team's outlook for the rest of the year. We weren't hitting three's but still pulled out a strong win. Go Blue Devils!!!

chaosmage
11-24-2012, 11:55 PM
Very classless for the other teams to not be there for the all-tournament selections.

sagegrouse
11-24-2012, 11:55 PM
If the ESPN score sheet is right, Duke's scoring was 16-15-14-14-14, plus a 3 for TT.

I won't carp about anything because both teams must have been dead tired. But it didn't affect Duke's FT shooting, 23-27 - 85%.

Lullville won the battle of the boards but apparently had only 6 assists for 30 baskets. Duke was 13 assists for 24 FGs.

Quinn was MVP of the tournament.

sagegrouse

Les Grossman
11-24-2012, 11:55 PM
Quinn is MVP

FerryFor50
11-24-2012, 11:55 PM
Quinn Cook gets tourny MVP and Mason gets all tourny team!

Not sure how you can be the MVP and not make all tourny team, but I'll take it!

devildeac
11-24-2012, 11:56 PM
And QC gets MVP!

Dukeblue91
11-24-2012, 11:56 PM
I'm very proud of this team and this was a well deserved win.
The whole tournament was tough and it was a hard fought championship.
Congratulations to all the Duke player and a special shout out to the tournament MVP Quinn Cook!!!

ChicagoCrazy84
11-24-2012, 11:56 PM
Sweeeeet!!!!! Awesome win!!!!

We are officially the Kentucky killers and next week we'll be the top 5 killers :)

The guys showed a lot the last 2 nights playing against 2 guard heavy teams who like to press. QC was the man!! He still needs to get better with his decision making but as long as he's playing with fearlessness, I'm happy.

I hate to nitpick after ANOTHER huge win, but we NEED to get better with our rebounding. I don't know why Mason was shying away so much in the 2nd half, he finished the first half with 2 fouls and ended up finishing the game with 2 fouls. Hmmmm. Also I don't know if it's being at an unfamiliar stadium or what, but our long range game is almost non existent. I'm sure we'll be ok but its still a little concerning.

QC with MVP!!!

uh_no
11-24-2012, 11:56 PM
Quinn Cook gets tourny MVP and Mason gets all tourny team!

Not sure how you can be the MVP and not make all tourny team, but I'll take it!

I think the implication is that the MVP is on the all tourney team...

Native
11-24-2012, 11:57 PM
Did Seth make All-Tournament?

Gthoma2a
11-24-2012, 11:57 PM
A lot of character on this team. I love the confident look in the guys eyes down the stretch. I love how Quinn owned the opportunity to take that big shot. Low ceiling in that place for fireworks, no?

It is a huge accomplishment to beat a good team, VCU (ridiculously tough team) and then the No. 2 team in the country in your third game. Maybe A firework.

JNort
11-24-2012, 11:57 PM
Well hopefully this Duke team isn't peaking too early but so far this team has exceeded expectations. Duke is a good team and hopefully K will turn them into a great team.

I really doubt it because young guys tend to get better as the season goes and that should scare other teams since Cook and Rasheed are both young and already talented. Seth is always a constant as is Kelly (though they do get hot and cold shooting streaks). The only one you gotta wonder about is Mason cause this is unlike any Mason we have ever seen and hopefully he will keep it up. Not to mention 3 other young guns (Alex, Amile, Marshall) will all be getting better as the season goes.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-24-2012, 11:58 PM
Wasn't the guy presenting the awards in Casino?

mr. synellinden
11-24-2012, 11:58 PM
We need more balanced scoring out of our starters.
Seriously though, there is one glaring concern for this team right now - rebounding.

But this is an impressive run, and all of the starting five are playing at a high level. We've played a brutal schedule so far and met every test. I hope we can get some rest and get focused to play OSU.

A-Tex Devil
11-24-2012, 11:58 PM
Great team effort. There don't appear to be any great teams yet this year, but Duke's resume has to be the most impressive thus far.

Ryan Kelly has to start boxing out better. We gave up about five easy put backs on O-Rebs in the second half which appeared to be just poor box out fundamentals.

All three of those late push offs by our guards were fouls. Gotta be more careful there.

Loving Sulaimon's overall impact as a freshman. He is my favorite fish since Gerald Henderson.

dchen09
11-24-2012, 11:59 PM
I find it funny how Mason takes his hat off when talking to the report.

ChrisP
11-24-2012, 11:59 PM
Yay, we're the Kings of Kentucky! Oh wait - do we want to be Kings of a backwater state like that?

Great win - and great tourney - by our kids. Amazing FT shooting, even on the 3rd night when we were clearly running on fumes near the end. Great coming out party for Sulaimon. And a really nice three days for Quinn Cook. Needs to mature a little bit, I think, but I'm very pleased with his progress thus far in the season. Of course, Mason was really, really solid and has clearly improved a great deal since last year.

I have to be honest, I didn't even look at the tourney field before this thing started and so I thought it was one of those BS early-season tourneys that was set up for Duke to advance easily. Uh...not so much. What a field! Playing in a ballroom (or whatever) seems odd, but I hope they are able to maintain the tradition of attracting top teams to this event.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-24-2012, 11:59 PM
Also, how hard is this for Donny UCONN right now?

chaosmage
11-25-2012, 12:00 AM
She wants to make a twitter account - @masonscheekzit :-P

FerryFor50
11-25-2012, 12:00 AM
Did Seth make All-Tournament?

Nope. Siva and Smith from L'ville, Pressey from Mizzou, Mason from Duke.

A-Tex Devil
11-25-2012, 12:00 AM
Very classless for the other teams to not be there for the all-tournament selections.

Weird comment.

Newton_14
11-25-2012, 12:01 AM
Let the celebration begin! Well done Devils. I have to admit I did not expect us to win this tourney going in due to the tough competition and our team still learning and coming together, and finally I thought fatigue, combined with Curry's leg and conditioning would be too much to overcome. Little did I know that Mr Featherson's gut before the season was spot on. This is a darn good basketball team. Period. If they can fix the rebounding issues, and get solid development from the bench guys, they can be a final four team. I don't see this as a "peaking early" team either, because they have so much more growing to do. We have not seen their best yet. The ceiling is much higher imo.

Love it!

Edit: Congrats to tourney MVP Quinn Cook, and fellow all-tourney team member Mason Plumlee. Well done guys!!!

DukieInBrasil
11-25-2012, 12:03 AM
so glad to see the growth that Quinn showed tonight. He showed that he can lead under pressure and that he is able to make big plays with the 3, with the mid-range, at the FT line, withe pass. Congrats to Quinn, hopefully his growth continues at a similar rate all year. And he was rewarded withe MVP award for the tourney!!

CDu
11-25-2012, 12:03 AM
Quinn Cook gets tourny MVP and Mason gets all tourny team!

Not sure how you can be the MVP and not make all tourny team, but I'll take it!

He made the all-tournament team. He was the fifth (Pressey, Siva, Smith, Plumlee, Cook).

BD80
11-25-2012, 12:03 AM
... I hate to nitpick after ANOTHER huge win, but we NEED to get better with our rebounding. ...

Man, if we only had a 7' player on the bench we could bring in to help out! Oh wait, we will soon. And Mason and Ryan can battle more and be a bit fresher.

Or, if we could develop a 6'8" wing so we didn't have to play so small. Oh wait, they're also working on that.

FerryFor50
11-25-2012, 12:04 AM
He made the all-tournament team. He was the fifth (Pressey, Siva, Smith, Plumlee, Cook).

Yea figured that out after the fact. Heh. Math.

dairedevil
11-25-2012, 12:05 AM
but that is one plug-ugly trophy. I think my son had better looking trophies in youth soccer.

chaosmage
11-25-2012, 12:05 AM
Weird comment.

I teach band. In band, every band stays for the trophies. Even if all you get is the "thanks for showing up" plaque. So if I'm the coach, out of respect, I stay for the presentation of all the awards and make my players stay as well. I would like to think that if we had lost, Coach K would've made the all-tournament selections stay and get their trophies.

Hence my comment.

striker219
11-25-2012, 12:05 AM
It is a huge accomplishment to beat a good team, VCU (ridiculously tough team) and then the No. 2 team in the country in your third game. Maybe A firework.

No kidding, I think they've earned a little down time. At least they get a few days of R&R before they have to...

Wait, no, I'm being told that they actually have to catch an early flight home tomorrow to prepare to face another top 5 team on Wednesday. Brutal stretch of basketball.

Amazing for fans!

ChicagoCrazy84
11-25-2012, 12:06 AM
Let the celebration begin! Well done Devils. I have to admit I did not expect us to win this tourney going in due to the tough competition and our team still learning and coming together, and finally I thought fatigue, combined with Curry's leg and conditioning would be too much to overcome. Little did I know that Mr Featherson's gut before the season was spot on. This is a darn good basketball team. Period. If they can fix the rebounding issues, and get solid development from the bench guys, they can be a final four team. I don't see this as a "peaking early" team either, because they have so much more growing to do. We have not seen their best yet. The ceiling is much higher imo.

Love it!

I think so too. With Marshall hopefully coming back in the next few weeks and getting some more burn for Amile/Alex in the coming weeks, we're going to continue to get better. Also, no offense to Austin but Rasheed is so solid especially defensively. He played against some solid guards the last few days and he was impressive all three days. If he can get a little more consistent with his shot, he could be an All-ACC selection by the end of the year.

pamtar
11-25-2012, 12:09 AM
I hate to nitpick after ANOTHER huge win, but we NEED to get better with our rebounding. I don't know why Mason was shying away so much in the 2nd half, he finished the first half with 2 fouls and ended up finishing the game with 2 fouls. Hmmmm. Also I don't know if it's being at an unfamiliar stadium or what, but our long range game is almost non existent. I'm sure we'll be ok but its still a little concerning.

FWIW, Ohio State is ranked 196th nationally in rebounding...

mapleleafdevil
11-25-2012, 12:10 AM
If Mason does not start boxing out it could mean trouble against a team with decent bigs. He is so used to being the biggest guy on the floor that he forgets the most important thing.

mgtr
11-25-2012, 12:11 AM
Normally, I enjoy the games the most when Duke smashes the opponent into the ground (exhibitions). However, I did enjoy this game, thought both teams gave it all they had, plus the stars stepped up when needed on both teams. I hope we don't meet either VCU or Louisville in the big dance.

subzero02
11-25-2012, 12:11 AM
Tough to pick a MOTM tonight - different players at different points in the game were key.

I have to go with Cook... The floater and the clutch free throws. He really impressed me down the stretch. You can literally see his confidence growing... I loved it when he waved off Curry and then spun into the lane for the floater. Straight butta...

Newton_14
11-25-2012, 12:11 AM
FWIW, Ohio State is ranked 196th nationally in rebounding...

So you're saying there's a chance?:p

lotusland
11-25-2012, 12:14 AM
Our guy showed a lot of composure tonight. Free-throw shooting at the end was awesome. I would have preferred a little less matador D at end so maybe we wouldn't have to keep in-bounding the ball and hitting free-throws but our guys really showed a ton of poise. Our starting 5 is playing better than anyone right now. I could post something nice about each of them but I was really impressed with Ryan's Defense all night and I did think he got tough calls on both his 4th and 5th fouls there at the end. Mason made good decisions and good passes when in-bounding the ball against the press and did a good job running the floor and knocking down free-throws. Quinn played great all game and made clutch shots and free-throws at the end. Sheed had a great first half and Seth made clutch shots at the end of both halves.

If I had to list a concern about this team at this point it would be our depth (at least what we know of it with MP3 hurt and Amile/Alex playing very little) and that our guards, although improved from last year, are still vulnerable to the drive especially against big aggressive guards like Smith and Siva.

House G
11-25-2012, 12:14 AM
Quinn and Sheed are very impressive
handling those two senior guards of L'ville was no easy assignment

Do we have to refer to Rasheed as Sheed? It conjures up memories of one of my least favorite Tar Heels.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Man, if we only had a 7' player on the bench we could bring in to help out! Oh wait, we will soon. And Mason and Ryan can battle more and be a bit fresher.

Or, if we could develop a 6'8" wing so we didn't have to play so small. Oh wait, they're also working on that.

Along those lines, I think this tournament solidified the starting 5 going forward the rest of the season. I wasn't wild at first about a 3 guard line-up again this year but Rasheed has more than proved the value of him being a starter.

Going forward, the focus should be on developing the bench, especially considering Curry's health and Kelly/MP2 foul-trouble. We need solid, consistent contributions from 2 of the following(I'm excluding TT as he's already a known quantity):

Amile, Alex, and/or MP3.

I want our starters fresh and ready for March as I believe we have the parts to go DEEP this year - an effective 8-9 man rotation will do it.

dukelifer
11-25-2012, 12:17 AM
Tough game- both teams fought hard. This tourney was great for Quinn and Rasheed. Quinn is gaining confidence with every game and seems to like the big moments- nice to see. Rasheed is both quick and fast and if he continues to develop that midrange game- he is going to be a force. This team plays very well together- and the D is more than solid. There were moments where they had lapses tonight when they let Louisville back in the game- but overall they have been pressuring well and defending the rim. Mason is a different player. The game has slowed down for him and his free throw shooting is amazing- he has clearly figured a lot out over the summer. I was not sure about this team when the season started- but if Quinn Cook continues to show this type of poise and leadership- Duke can play with anyone.

UrinalCake
11-25-2012, 12:18 AM
Box score shows that rebounding wasn't quite as bad as it appeared when watching the game - they beat us 37-31 overall and 13-7 offensively. But they also said on the radio that Louisville averages 15 offensive boards per game. So we got beat but not destroyed on the boards. But hey, we gotta have something to work on in practice this week 8-).

ncexnyc
11-25-2012, 12:18 AM
Another fantastic finish. Many people on the board were concerned about the 3 guard line-up and so far we are seeing some of their concerns about rebounding being played out. I'm not sure there's much Coach K and his staff can do about it as their hand has been forced by the outstanding play of Rasheed. Stressing the basic fundamental of boxing out is about all they can do for right now. Hopefully either Alex or Amile can elevate their game big time so they earn more playing time.

I was saying some nasty things about Ryan's defensive effort throughout the game. He seemed a tad slow moving to the ball and then out of nowhere with Big Mo shifting to the Cards, he stonewalls a guard in the open court. He then follows that play up with two clean blocks, which were whistled for bogus fouls.

With all that we've seen in this young season, the biggest shock is not only Mason's FT%, but that of the team as a whole, outstanding job under some tough conditions.

UrinalCake
11-25-2012, 12:20 AM
Going forward, the focus should be on developing the bench.

I totally agree, but I don't think that will happen until after the OSU game, when the schedule eases up and we'll have more practices in between games. Murphy especially is a guy we expected to play multiple positions, so not having him out there much really weakens our bench production.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-25-2012, 12:20 AM
but that is one plug-ugly trophy. I think my son had better looking trophies in youth soccer.

Yeah, if you put your ear up to the seashell on that trophy, you can hear Ol' Roy whisper "Daggummit".

KenTankerous
11-25-2012, 12:21 AM
Boxing out and rebounding, to those who have played, coached or watched much ball, are the easiest of skills to learn or teach. K is biding his time. He'll get Mason there. And Kelly will lead the way.

Relax and enjoy a GREAT win. And another championship.

lotusland
11-25-2012, 12:23 AM
Do we have to refer to Rasheed as Sheed? It conjures up memories of one of my least favorite Tar Heels.

How about RS? I hate typing names when I post from my phone so there must be an abreviation.

UrinalCake
11-25-2012, 12:24 AM
I was saying some nasty things about Ryan's defensive effort throughout the game. He seemed a tad slow moving to the ball and then out of nowhere with Big Mo shifting to the Cards, he stonewalls a guard in the open court.

That was a huge play, especially since we turned right around and scored. Last year there were countless times when Ryan was in a similar position and would choose to just keep his arms folded and fall over. It always drove me crazy that an almost-seven footer wouldn't even hold up his arms and would instead choose to flop. Looks like he finally started listening to me 8-)

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-25-2012, 12:24 AM
Hey let's give the guys a little break on the rebounding thing. Yes we could be better. But that was three tough games in three days in a very hot arena. Those were some tired blue devils!

By the way, how frickin awesome is it that Mason is shooting FTs so well that he is on the floor at the end instead of having to be subbed in/out to avoid the hack-a-mason from years past? Outstanding!

dukelifer
11-25-2012, 12:24 AM
I totally agree, but I don't think that will happen until after the OSU game, when the schedule eases up and we'll have more practices in between games. Murphy especially is a guy we expected to play multiple positions, so not having him out there much really weakens our bench production.
Not sure if folks noticed the hug and yell that Jeff Capel gave to Murphy when he went back to the bench after going high for a block (although not really sure he did anything). Definitely shows they are trying to get him on track.

Edouble
11-25-2012, 12:26 AM
Team looks to be on a great pace for March.

Looooong time Quinn supporter here. My man is playing complete games like I really thought he could. His left is tremendous. Best two hand handle since Kyrie and Duhon, IMHO. It was nice to see him get the MVP and also nice to see Coach K pull him aside and let him know he was going to get it before the awards were announced.

I thought the team did a few dumb things in the middle of the second half, but it's reassuring to see that we still had the composure to pull through with the win.

Ryan's last two fouls were questionable. I think they were very good blocks, but he probably got just a bit of body. Playing on fresher legs (not the 3rd game in as many days) with just a hair more of lift, I'm betting those are blocks and not fouls.

Glad to see that we can get out and run when we get the chance. Mason's long passes to Quinn, Rasheed's steals, et al were great for some easy, somewhat demoralizing buckets. It's always beneficial to have some easy buckets and this team has the ability to get some each game.

cptnflash
11-25-2012, 12:31 AM
Did Seth make All-Tournament?

Seth got completely screwed on the all-tournament team selections. He was our leading scorer with 54 points in 3 games. Selection committee succumbing to recency bias, as usual.

AtlDuke72
11-25-2012, 12:31 AM
If Mason does not start boxing out it could mean trouble against a team with decent bigs. He is so used to being the biggest guy on the floor that he forgets the most important thing.

In the last 5 -10 minutes Mason was actually guarding Siva or Smith most of the time. He can't do that and also box out their big guys. The problem was that our guards could not stop their penetration which caused the whole defensive scheme to break down and led to most of their rebounds. It seemed like Louisville got into the lane every possession in the second half. Those guys were terrific guards and our guys were exhausted as Coach K said several times in the interviews. Having Quin healthy and adding Sulaimon has made this the fastest pace team Duke has had in a long time. It is also great to see how much better this team seems to get along with each other compased to last year. Mason has improved more from year to year than any player I can remember. What a great win!

timmy c
11-25-2012, 12:33 AM
Box score shows that rebounding wasn't quite as bad as it appeared when watching the game - they beat us 37-31 overall and 13-7 offensively. But they also said on the radio that Louisville averages 15 offensive boards per game. So we got beat but not destroyed on the boards. But hey, we gotta have something to work on in practice this week 8-).

UofL was missing their top rebounder, Dieng. Selfishly, I would have liked to see them beat the UofL team at full strength.

AtlDuke72
11-25-2012, 12:34 AM
Do we have to refer to Rasheed as Sheed? It conjures up memories of one of my least favorite Tar Heels.

I agree 100%.

cptnflash
11-25-2012, 12:38 AM
Just to follow up on my own post, Seth had a WAY better tournament than "all-tourney" selection Peyton Siva. Seth, as I previously noted, was our leading scorer with 54 points, on just 31 official field goal attempts (he made a living at the line, as all great scorers do). Meanwhile, Siva scored 39 points on 35 field goal attempts, and only got to the line 7 times in 3 games (highly ineffeficient scoring). In addition, he had a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio - 11 assists in three games, and 11 turnovers. Not what you want from your starting point guard, at least on the offensive side of the ball.

I don't mean to pick on Siva... he's a solid defender with a limited offensive game. But Seth clearly had a better tournament than Siva did, and unfortunately didn't get the all-tournament team recognition he very much deserved.

Edouble
11-25-2012, 12:38 AM
I agree 100%.

I disagree.

I would never refer to any Tarheel so casually.

The player you are talking about, I call "Rasheed Wallace", plain and simple. Why would you ever call him any name that suggests a sense of closeness or endearment?

The bad guys down the street don't have a patent on argyle, powder blue, or the nickname 'Sheed.

Cameron
11-25-2012, 12:43 AM
Were those small explosions after the game fireworks or was the building under attack? They didn't look very safe, haha. I thought maybe Donny Yukon had booby trapped the place just in case Duke won the tournament.

Awesome win tonight. It is a pure pleasure watching this group play. They all play with such selflessness and a love for being on the court together. You can just feel it. Just watch Quinn at any point during the game. Like a general, he is constantly firing up the other guys and rallying any of the troops after a big play or a tough one that didn't go our way. Quinn has become the catalyst, the commander on court who just refuses to let us ever die. We've had a legacy of players like this at Duke. Nolan. Duhon. Shane. Wojo. And on and on. I think Quinn is becoming that sort of leader right before our very eyes. And that three he hit from the top of the key at the end. That was the biggest shot of his career. He played terrific this tournament.

My favorite play of the game wasn't anything that happened in that dramatic last stanza. It was simply Ryan Kelly's twirling trip to the basket late in the first half, where he took off from the tip of the arc, pretended he was going left, then hoodwinked his defender by whirling right and rolling the ball off his fingers and into the basket. Shades of Michael Dunleavy against Georgia Tech. He is a remarkable penetrator for his stature, and it's so great to see Kelly beginning to really utilize that aspect of his game. Once his three starts to drop, and it will, there won't be a big man out there that will be able to guard him. In the meantime, keep improving that repertoire of moves, big fella, and you are going to make a fine pro.

And tonight's game, specifically the first 20 minutes, solidified in my book that Rasheed Sulaimon is among the handful of best freshmen in the entire country. He is wise beyond his years, with the physical abilities to go with it. Not only do I think Rasheed will end up as one of our three top leading scorers at the end of the season, but he might also blossom into our best player. He seems to have hit a bit of a rough patch with regard to his three-point shooting, but as a defender, ball handler and finisher, Rasheed is bringing it each and every night and has become one of our most reliable assets, the kind of player that, as another poster pointed out after the VCU game, you just trust to get things done. He was absolutely superb in the open court tonight, coming up with big steals and finishing shots in transition. He is one bad dude with the ball at his fingertips and an eye on the basket. Almost impossible to stop.

Saratoga2
11-25-2012, 12:43 AM
I was very impressed by Quinn's game. He did it all out there and showed great composure doing it. Having him contribute at such a high level is a plus and better than we could have expected. Rasheed is also exceeding expectations both on defense and is an offensive threat with good defensive skills. Seth is cute with the ball and is probably our best overall scorer and plays solid defense. With Tyler also a solid PG, we have a very effective backcourt with depth.

Mason has developed a great deal on the offensive side and is also able to hit a good percentage of his foul shots. He has it in him to play better defense and get better position for rebounding. Maybe he was just worn down but he really didn't challenge shots in the second half nor was he doing much in rebounding. When he does go hard for the ball his height and athleticism gives him a substantial advantage, but he seemed to play very soft defense for much of the game tonight.

Ryan on the other hand, while still missing his outside shots contested shots and played with more toughness. He isn't as athletically gifted as Mason, but he seems to see the defensive requirements a little better.

It was good to see our small forwards and josh get into the game and contribute.

Another great tournament win for the team and coach K. Still a lot to work on in the front court rebounding and defensive toughness, but that will probably be helped when Marshall gets into the games. At least it will reduce fatigue and cut down on the fouling out concerns.

On to Ohio State. It should be a good game for us at Cameron. OSU will not be able to put more pressure on us than VCU and Louisville could with their pressing and superior guard play.

Billy Dat
11-25-2012, 12:43 AM
First off, this tournament was really interesting - strange court in a ballroom made uncomfortably hot due to the proximity of the lighting rig to the court, an outstanding field, etc. Every 3 day tournament is tough, but the quality of the field, the specific quality of the teams we played, the pressing style of our last two opponents and the odd court set up made this one feel particularly tough.

All of that make this win so satisfying. It's easy to get too excited about the season potential based on an early season tournament, especially considering the programs consistent winning of these Thanksgiving tournaments, but is crazy to not get excited about what the team accomplished these last three games.

So many of the key cogs are playing at or near the "best case" end of our off-season prognostication meter. Mason has started at an AA pace, Curry has been a great producer and leader despite a leg injury that bars him from practice, Kelly had shaken off the dust and been playing the way we hoped save for his 3 point shooting. Then you have Rasheed and Quinn Cook. Rasheed has been better than we hoped, because his poise and production are so consistent. While he seems like more of a first half scorer, the rest of his game including facilitating, press breaking and defense have all been amazing. Finally, Quinn Cook, since game #2, he has emerged as, first, a capable PG with lots of upside to now a very solid to really good (he did just win the MVP) PG with excellent potential. That 5 is an excellent core.

Thornton, Hairston and Jefferson, especially Tyler in this tournament because of the pressing, have been solid. With the return of MP3 and Murphy's continued quick runs, depth shouldn't be an issue.

Congrats to the Devils...very satisfying tournament win. I hope they can recharge and be ready for Ohio State. They thumped us last time we were reeling from an exhausting tournament win. I am glad we are playing at home.

Native
11-25-2012, 12:45 AM
The bad guys down the street don't have a patent on argyle, powder blue, or the nickname 'Sheed.

They can keep the powder blue, though. Ugly.

sporthenry
11-25-2012, 12:46 AM
Do we have to refer to Rasheed as Sheed? It conjures up memories of one of my least favorite Tar Heels.

But not typing "Ra" saves me a lot of time. Besides Ra conjures up thoughts of my least favorite sun god.

cptnflash
11-25-2012, 12:46 AM
One final thought... we were once again dominated on the boards by a smaller team, but managed to win anyway. I love our guys, and I firmly believe this group has final four / national championship potential, but we have to get better on the boards, or it will eventually come back to bite us. For all of its perceived lack of athleticism, the 2010 group was an excellent rebounding team, especially on the offensive glass. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is this year... maybe everyone deferring to Mason too much on the boards? Or maybe it's just a sample size issue. Whatever the problem, I hope the coaches can get it solved.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 12:48 AM
I want our starters fresh and ready for March as I believe we have the parts to go DEEP this year - an effective 8-9 man rotation will do it.

Well, I hope an effective 7 man rotation will do it, because we shouldn't expect Coach K to go any deeper than that in games that count.

J4Kop99
11-25-2012, 12:51 AM
Great win. I'm proud of Quinn and I think he deserved that Tournament MVP. Of course the rebounding differential is a bit troubling, but as someone above me posted, this was their third game in as many days and I think we can chalk it up to the guys being a little fatigued. Also, let's give Louisville a little credit. They have some solid players and some very big bodies down low.

I am so impressed with Rasheed. People keep bringing up Nolan Smith as a comparison but I see a little Kobe Bryant in him. I'm not saying he is anywhere close to the player Kobe Bryant is, but he can do a lot of the same things and he has that "killer instinct" that we like to talk about from time to time. He also has great confidence in himself and a powerful smile.

Lastly, I think playing against VCU (and more specifically, their tough FC Press) was a blessing in disguise. Our guys seemed to handle Pitino's Press with relative ease which was nice to see.

--Oh yeah, one more thing... Ryan's timing on the defensive end is superb. He may not be the greatest "athlete" out there but he is such a smart player and always finds a way to contest shots. Those two ridiculous foul calls at the end were beautifully contested by Ryan.

subzero02
11-25-2012, 12:55 AM
You have to love ESPN's fact checking...

"Duke had lost its last three games to Louisville. The Blue Devils' previous win in the series was the 1986 NCAA championship game."

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/gamecast?gameId=323290097&version=mobile

g-money
11-25-2012, 12:58 AM
Great win tonight. The teamwork and cohesion was excellent on both ends of the floor - perhaps a sign that the pre-season boot camp is paying off.

Beyond the team play, I am enjoying watching the individual players' confidence (e.g. Quinn, Rasheed) grow by leaps and bounds.

However...


Along those lines, I think this tournament solidified the starting 5 going forward the rest of the season. I wasn't wild at first about a 3 guard line-up again this year but Rasheed has more than proved the value of him being a starter.

Going forward, the focus should be on developing the bench, especially considering Curry's health and Kelly/MP2 foul-trouble. We need solid, consistent contributions from 2 of the following(I'm excluding TT as he's already a known quantity):

Amile, Alex, and/or MP3.

I want our starters fresh and ready for March as I believe we have the parts to go DEEP this year - an effective 8-9 man rotation will do it.

This post very nearly took the words out of my mouth so I thought I would tack on to it. As good as we look right now, the rest of the college basketball world isn't standing still. In terms of our team's improvement, I think we would benefit substantially from having a big with some offensive firepower as a backup to Kelly/MP2.

My $0.02 is that if we can get a meaningful contribution from just one of the youngbloods you mention above, we could find ourselves playing in April - and I'm not talking about the NIT.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 01:06 AM
When he does go hard for the ball his height and athleticism gives him a substantial advantage, but he seemed to play very soft defense for much of the game tonight.

Mason started laying off a little when he got in foul trouble in the first half. Though he never actually picked up his third foul, I suspect he also never thought to break out of "be careful not to foul" mode.


Ryan on the other hand, while still missing his outside shots contested shots and played with more toughness. He isn't as athletically gifted as Mason, but he seems to see the defensive requirements a little better.

I thought Ryan looked fantastic tonight, on both sides of the ball. Great all around game for him.


It was good to see our small forwards and josh get into the game and contribute.

I loved the "blue team" for a few minutes in the first half today, with Tyler, Josh, Alex, and Amile (plus Quinn). They played hard on defense and scored a couple baskets as well. And they were so enthusiastic, it was great to see.


One final thought... we were once again dominated on the boards by a smaller team, but managed to win anyway. I love our guys, and I firmly believe this group has final four / national championship potential, but we have to get better on the boards, or it will eventually come back to bite us. For all of its perceived lack of athleticism, the 2010 group was an excellent rebounding team, especially on the offensive glass. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is this year... maybe everyone deferring to Mason too much on the boards? Or maybe it's just a sample size issue. Whatever the problem, I hope the coaches can get it solved.

I mentioned this in the VCU thread, but teams that play "classic" Duke defense have often been at a disadvantage on the boards. The national champion 2001 team outrebounded opponents by only 1.1 rebounds per game. The 1991 champions only by 2.3 rpg and the 1992 champs only by 2.7 rpg. The 1994 (0.8 rpg), 1990 (1.5), and 2004 (2.3) final four teams were in a similar ballpark. The 2006 team, which had an unfortunate ending but was #1 in the country for most of the season, was outrebounded by its opponents by 2.7 rpg.

I'm not saying we can't box out better, but I think we have to acknowledge that a tradeoff from the very strong defense we've been playing is our rebounding is going to suffer.

IBleedBlue
11-25-2012, 01:08 AM
I am really looking forward to the OSU game.
I remember the thumping they gave us last year on their home court. Now it's time to show them what it is that Cameron is famous for.
My only wish for this holidays is to thump OSU by atleast 20 points.

Billy Dat
11-25-2012, 01:09 AM
Some non-play observations about the NBCSP post-game coverage:
-Loved the extended interviews and awards presentations (all tourny, MVP, etc.) You never get to see that stuff but these newer networks need that extra content.
-Did you catch the audience pan shot of all the beauty pageant contestants in their sashes? I'm not sure which pageant it was, but they wore state sashes and Miss North Carolina was posing with the team after the game.
-As the team was getting photographed with their trophy, someone blew a huge confetti cannon right into their faces and bodies from the right side. They all started cracking up, it was ridiculous.
-I'd love to hear what K was saying to Silva and Smith. Scott Van Pelt tweeted that it was the highest of high praise but also R rated. Did anyone catch it and can you find a way to post it within guidelines?
-I really wish they'd cover the handshake line without interruption so that I could watch the interactions. I love to see who gets the basic shake vs the hug vs the stop and whisper, etc.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 01:12 AM
Oh, one other thing. I don't want to be a downer or anything, but this post-game thread reminds me very much of the thread after we beat Kansas last November. There are no guarantees in life. I'm hopeful for our post-season success this season, but my plan is just to enjoy the ride, no matter how it ends.

gotoguy
11-25-2012, 01:14 AM
Great win by the Illini over Butler in Hawaii following Duke's win there last year. Watched it Wednesdy night while visiting my Dad back home near Champaign-Urbana. Where were the Heels? Hehe.

Anyway as I was out of town for Thanksgiving, I was only able to see the second half of tonight's game with the Devils of all the tourney games.

I did read about the games here at DBR and Donny Marshall's contribution to the broadcast and the slamming he received here on the board. I though he did a good job and was complementary of the Devils tonight. Any other thoughts re Donny UConn?

billy
11-25-2012, 01:15 AM
Were those small explosions after the game fireworks or was the building under attack? They didn't look very safe, haha. I thought maybe Donny Yukon had booby trapped the place just in case Duke won the tournament.

Strobe lights in that room were excessive. Left the Bahamas today and watched tonight's game on TV so I'm not sure whether it was "just" the strobe lights, but, they were enough the first two games to worry me about seizures :rolleyes:. The atmosphere in the ballroom was straight NBA: loud music during time-outs, professional boxing-style announcer, strobes, Miss USA contestants (that was Ms. North Carolina USA posing in the post game with the team holding the trophy). I saw a lot of comments about the heat in the ballroom - the spectator area wasn't particularly hot, not sure how much different the floor temperature was under the lights (although you did have to walk on the edge of the playing surface to go get food/drink and the temperature wasn't notably different there).



I did read about the games here at DBR and Donny Marshall's contribution to the broadcast and the slamming he received here on the board. I though he did a good job and was complementary of the Devils tonight. Any other thoughts re Donny UConn? Agree about Donny tonight - seemed pretty even-keeled. Must have gotten a little feedback after the VCU game and taken it to heart.

77devil
11-25-2012, 01:22 AM
Tough to pick a MOTM tonight - different players at different points in the game were key.

Quinn was tournament MVP. He was clutch down the stretch and was the spark all night long.

cptnflash
11-25-2012, 01:28 AM
I mentioned this in the VCU thread, but teams that play "classic" Duke defense have often been at a disadvantage on the boards. The national champion 2001 team outrebounded opponents by only 1.1 rebounds per game. The 1991 champions only by 2.3 rpg and the 1992 champs only by 2.7 rpg. The 1994 (0.8 rpg), 1990 (1.5), and 2004 (2.3) final four teams were in a similar ballpark. The 2006 team, which had an unfortunate ending but was #1 in the country for most of the season, was outrebounded by its opponents by 2.7 rpg.

I'm not saying we can't box out better, but I think we have to acknowledge that a tradeoff from the very strong defense we've been playing is our rebounding is going to suffer.

RPG is misleading because we almost always shoot a much higher percentage than our opponents, so we have more defensive (i.e. high percentage) rebounding opportunities. Offensive rebounding percentage (achieved and allowed) is a better metric. Unfortunately Pomeroy's tempo-free stats only go back to 2003, so of the teams you mentioned, we can only compare apples to apples against 2004 and 2006. The '04 team was great on the offensive boards (rebounding 39% of our missed shots, the 15th best rate in the country), and terrible on the defensive boards (rebounding 62.4% of our opponents' missed shots, the 282nd best rate in the country - i.e., the bottom quartile). The 2006 team was bad on both ends, rebounding 30.8% on the offensive side (278th in the country) and 62.4% on the defensive boards (304th in the country). So far this year, our performance is more in line with 2006, which as you noted, ended is a disappointingly early loss to an arguably inferior team. And that pretty much sums up my concern with this year's squad. If we aren't rebounding better come March, we'll wind up being "upset" by a team that clobbers us on the glass and winds up taking way more shots than us.

But I remain optimistic... it's early, we're off to a great start, and I have confidence that this will be a point of emphasis going forward. I think (hope) that through the right combination of coaching and personnel, we'll get to the point where we're at least average on the glass. That might be all it takes, given how strong we are in other areas.

-bdbd
11-25-2012, 01:30 AM
First off, this tournament was really interesting - strange court in a ballroom made uncomfortably hot due to the proximity of the lighting rig to the court, an outstanding field, etc. Every 3 day tournament is tough, but the quality of the field, the specific quality of the teams we played, the pressing style of our last two opponents and the odd court set up made this one feel particularly tough.

All of that make this win so satisfying. It's easy to get too excited about the season potential based on an early season tournament, especially considering the programs consistent winning of these Thanksgiving tournaments, but is crazy to not get excited about what the team accomplished these last three games.

So many of the key cogs are playing at or near the "best case" end of our off-season prognostication meter. Mason has started at an AA pace, Curry has been a great producer and leader despite a leg injury that bars him from practice, Kelly had shaken off the dust and been playing the way we hoped save for his 3 point shooting. Then you have Rasheed and Quinn Cook. Rasheed has been better than we hoped, because his poise and production are so consistent. While he seems like more of a first half scorer, the rest of his game including facilitating, press breaking and defense have all been amazing. Finally, Quinn Cook, since game #2, he has emerged as, first, a capable PG with lots of upside to now a very solid to really good (he did just win the MVP) PG with excellent potential. That 5 is an excellent core.

Thornton, Hairston and Jefferson, especially Tyler in this tournament because of the pressing, have been solid. With the return of MP3 and Murphy's continued quick runs, depth shouldn't be an issue.

Congrats to the Devils...very satisfying tournament win. I hope they can recharge and be ready for Ohio State. They thumped us last time we were reeling from an exhausting tournament win. I am glad we are playing at home.

Agree with everything BillyDat said. Some really unusal things about this tournament, such as "court in a ballroom," extra heat from very close lighting, small crowd (4,000) - but a terrific quality of opposition, which will help our SOS come selection Sunday in March. Louisville playing w/o their starting Center will be the excuse used by detractors to diminish Duke's accomplisment, but I really don't care - the team overcame all obstacles in front of them. The WHOLE TEAM played well, and it was a TEAM victory in this tournament.

In terms of individual development, it was great to see Mason continue to assert himself, Quinn Cook's growing confidence and maturity is going to be sooo key to this team going forward, Ryan Kelly had his usual excellent showing (but under-noticed by the announcers, as usual), Rasheed continues to assert himself and grow in important experience, and Curry played a lot of minutes over the three days w/o ill-effect (though I held my breath when he grabbed his leg after going down awkwardly in that early drive to the basket). And the bench came through at a critical juncture late in the first half today. The victory and the trophy aside, those individual developments mean more to us long-term than any hardware we just picked up.

This seems to be a team just getting better and better. As one who tends to fret over Duke's recent (last 10 years) tendency to peak early in the season, often winning early-season tournaments and lots in the ACC, and then struggling or even fading down the March stretch run, the continued development is good to see. BUT, given last year's early exit, it won't matter a lick if we don't make a dent in the March NCAA tournament... This group, right now, appears to have the makings of a March run. But that's still a long way away. :D Note for MP2 -- sure would like to see more aggressive help-Defense near the bucket, against opponents' driving guards who get past Curry, Cook, TT and Rasheed....

P.S. It seems that Ryan Kelly has assumed the mantle of the Daniel Ewing Honorary "phantom call" award recipient, for his ability to draw TWO late foul calls WITHOUT EVEN MAKING CONTACT (!!). As Announcer "Flops" Marshall would say, "Boy is Louisville GREAT at selling foul calls! :rolleyes: (Though Seth got one of those "phantoms" himself at one point in the second half - gotta love his "wry smile" reaction too.)

cptnflash
11-25-2012, 01:32 AM
I am really looking forward to the OSU game.
I remember the thumping they gave us last year on their home court. Now it's time to show them what it is that Cameron is famous for.
My only wish for this holidays is to thump OSU by atleast 20 points.

They beat us by 22 last year. I'd like to see us win by 23 or more on Wednesday, just to prove a point. It's time for a little payback!

Cameron
11-25-2012, 01:37 AM
Oh, one other thing. I don't want to be a downer or anything, but this post-game thread reminds me very much of the thread after we beat Kansas last November. There are no guarantees in life. I'm hopeful for our post-season success this season, but my plan is just to enjoy the ride, no matter how it ends.

This exact sentiment jumped into my head while reading through my and others' posts here in the immediate moments after the game. But, with all due respect, Curly Neal isn't playing on our team this year. Two key elements that this team excels at that last year's never did are ball movement and, most importantly, defense. This group of Devils can get down and play. Rasheed's energetic presence on the perimeter, in addition to our resident spark plug off the bench in Tyler Thornton, has really served to stimulate our pressure defense as a team and has seemingly trickled down to everyone else, improving our culture of defense as a whole. Quinn and Seth have also improved to a degree, as well.

We are just playing with abundantly more intensity on that end of the floor. I'm excited about how well we've developed in this capacity and the points in transition we were able to create off our defense against Louisville really set the tone of the game. This team is better than last year's in almost every way. That's my opinion, of course. And no disrespect to Austin Rivers. What he could do with the ball in his hands as the game hung in the balance was incredible and he possessed a competitive fire that matched any kid we've ever had while I've been following Blue Devil hoops. But we are simply better without him this year.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 01:44 AM
And that pretty much sums up my concern with this year's squad. If we aren't rebounding better come March, we'll wind up being "upset" by a team that clobbers us on the glass and winds up taking way more shots than us.

Well, except in our tourney loss in 2006 we were pretty much even with LSU on the glass (they outrebounded us by 1, which doesn't seem like being "clobbered" to me) and we took four more shots than they did (i.e., they did NOT "wind up taking way more shots than us"). So rebounding probably isn't why we lost. Not to mention these things sometimes happen in a one-and-done tournament, whether you outrebound your opponent or not. So I don't necessarily think your conclusion about what will happen if we "aren't rebounding better come March" is a logical extension of your concern.

tele
11-25-2012, 01:48 AM
great win!! Unbelievable effort over three tough games. It's almost a relief that the OSU game is at Cameron, hope the crazies will be at full force.

It would seem that Mr. Featherston was right about Duke being under-rated in the early season rankings.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 02:02 AM
This exact sentiment jumped into my head while reading through my and others' posts here in the immediate moments after the game. But, with all due respect, Curly Neal isn't playing on our team this year. Two key elements that this team excels at that last year's never did are ball movement and, most importantly, defense. This group of Devils can get down and play. Rasheed's energetic presence on the perimeter, in addition to our resident spark plug off the bench in Tyler Thornton, has really served to stimulate our pressure defense as a team and has seemingly trickled down to everyone else, improving our culture of defense as a whole. Quinn and Seth have also improved to a degree, as well.

We are just playing with abundantly more intensity on that end of the floor. I'm excited about how well we've developed in this capacity and the points in transition we were able to create off our defense against Louisville really set the tone of the game. This team is better than last year's in almost every way. That's my opinion, of course. And no disrespect to Austin Rivers. What he could do with the ball in his hands as the game hung in the balance was incredible and he possessed a competitive fire that matched any kid we've ever had while I've been following Blue Devil hoops. But we are simply better without him this year.

I agree we appear to be a better defensive team this year, but I would note that our defensive efficiency ranking in Pomeroy is pretty much the same as it was last year just after the Kansas game, so the numbers don't necessarily back up what we've seen with our eyes. That said, our defense starting tanking in the Ohio State game last year and just kept getting worse, and I suspect this year it will continue to get better, which hopefully will validate our observations.

We also move the ball better and share the ball better, which were obvious deficiencies of last year's team. On the other hand, we have a lot less shooting skill and offensive firepower in general than last year's team and I don't know to what extent that balances things out.

Overall, my subjective assessment is to agree that this year's team is better than last year's team, as I expected it to be based on starting three seniors. We showed a lot of poise in this pre-season tournament and frankly had the demeanor of a team that was going to win no matter what, which is a vibe I seldom got from last year's team even while we were winning in Maui.

The biggest thing is, though, is to realize our perception of last year's team is largely based on the last two games while Ryan Kelly was injured. If he had played, we probably would have won the ACC tournament and at least gone to the Sweet 16, maybe the Elite Eight, and nobody would be talking as if the 2011-12 team was an aged relative with a terminal disease. I guess the reason I'm blathering along is that anything can happen in the NCAA tournament, and the high hopes and warm feelings we all have now shouldn't be bittered by a stumble at the end of the race, if such a sad event were to occur. In other words, let's enjoy what we have for as long as we have it.

Cameron
11-25-2012, 02:30 AM
I agree we appear to be a better defensive team this year, but I would note that our defensive efficiency ranking in Pomeroy is pretty much the same as it was last year just after the Kansas game, so the numbers don't necessarily back up what we've seen with our eyes. That said, our defense starting tanking in the Ohio State game last year and just kept getting worse, and I suspect this year it will continue to get better, which hopefully will validate our observations.

We also move the ball better and share the ball better, which were obvious deficiencies of last year's team. On the other hand, we have a lot less shooting skill and offensive firepower in general than last year's team and I don't know to what extent that balances things out.

Overall, my subjective assessment is to agree that this year's team is better than last year's team, as I expected it to be based on starting three seniors. We showed a lot of poise in this pre-season tournament and frankly had the demeanor of a team that was going to win no matter what, which is a vibe I seldom got from last year's team even while we were winning in Maui.

The biggest thing is, though, is to realize our perception of last year's team is largely based on the last two games while Ryan Kelly was injured. If he had played, we probably would have won the ACC tournament and at least gone to the Sweet 16, maybe the Elite Eight, and nobody would be talking as if the 2011-12 team was an aged relative with a terminal disease. I guess the reason I'm blathering along is that anything can happen in the NCAA tournament, and the high hopes and warm feelings we all have now shouldn't be bittered by a stumble at the end of the race, if such a sad event were to occur. In other words, let's enjoy what we have for as long as we have it.

As the great philosopher Rihanna once said, I can drink to that. Good post.

I still think our shooting will ultimately be fine. Seth (one of the five best in the country from long range), Rasheed (despite the swoon tonight, the amount of triples he takes proves the staff believes in his shot and he's made 12 through six games thus far; Rasheed can shoot the ball) and Ryan (he'll get the touch back eventually, and when he does, watch out) compose a pretty good trio of three-point shooters, and Quinn Cook has converted on 9 of 18 from behind the arc for good measure. Then you have Tyler, who every couple of games or so might be good for one or two big triples off the bench.

You are right in that we do not have an outstanding three-point shooting team. The absence of Andre Dawkins really hurts us, as it leaves us with just one lethal outside shooter and just two other good ones (Rahseed and Ryan). And thus far, Ryan hasn't been very good. The key, I think, is Quinn. It will be interesting to see if he can keep shooting with the consistency that he has. He's been very judicious for the most part in the shots that he does take, only shooting an average of three per game, which is a good thing as he is still not somebody that I have much confidence in when he shoots. But it is building. With another off-season in the gym, he might turn into a fantastic shooter.

magjayran
11-25-2012, 02:30 AM
I teach band. In band, every band stays for the trophies. Even if all you get is the "thanks for showing up" plaque. So if I'm the coach, out of respect, I stay for the presentation of all the awards and make my players stay as well. I would like to think that if we had lost, Coach K would've made the all-tournament selections stay and get their trophies.

Hence my comment.

Apples and oranges though. You always see that in band competitions (my dad and brother did Drum & Bugle corps) but you never see it in basketball. It's not classless to eschew a tradition that doesn't exist.

Mudge
11-25-2012, 02:45 AM
This exact sentiment jumped into my head while reading through my and others' posts here in the immediate moments after the game. But, with all due respect, Curly Neal isn't playing on our team this year. Two key elements that this team excels at that last year's never did are ball movement and, most importantly, defense. This group of Devils can get down and play. Rasheed's energetic presence on the perimeter, in addition to our resident spark plug off the bench in Tyler Thornton, has really served to stimulate our pressure defense as a team and has seemingly trickled down to everyone else, improving our culture of defense as a whole. Quinn and Seth have also improved to a degree, as well.

We are just playing with abundantly more intensity on that end of the floor. I'm excited about how well we've developed in this capacity and the points in transition we were able to create off our defense against Louisville really set the tone of the game. This team is better than last year's in almost every way. That's my opinion, of course. And no disrespect to Austin Rivers. What he could do with the ball in his hands as the game hung in the balance was incredible and he possessed a competitive fire that matched any kid we've ever had while I've been following Blue Devil hoops. But we are simply better without him this year.

Last year: win tough tournament with 3 tough games against tough teams, including high ranked team in championship-- then play high-ranked Ohio State... same this year. Like last year (what am I saying-- most years!) Duke doesn't know how to box out properly (especially our guards, who need it more than anyone), and like last year, Duke is very slow/lethargic at getting to loose balls and long rebounds (particularly Plumlee), so we usually lose most of the loose balls... these were nice wins against good teams-- I hope it carries through to the end of the season.

I think this team could be better than last year, by virtue of replacing Rivers (poor defender) with Sulaimon (good defender)... but I still would like to see Duke learn how to box out one of these seasons, and I'd like to see Plumlee be more aggressive (as in past years) when chasing loose balls (and when finishing around rim).

Funny how we heard about the missing Louisville big man about 20 times, but no one ever mentioned the youngest Plumlee's absence for Duke. Also: I don't see all the fuss about Peyton Siva-- makes toooo many mistakes/turnovers, and doesn't shoot that well... he's decent but not great... they couldn't score to save their lives in the NCAA tourney against Cincy last year.... I hope this year's team does not peak early.

Cameron
11-25-2012, 03:05 AM
Last year: win tough tournament with 3 tough games against tough teams, including high ranked team in championship-- then play high-ranked Ohio State... same this year. Like last year (what am I saying-- most years!) Duke doesn't know how to box out properly (especially our guards, who need it more than anyone), and like last year, Duke is very slow/lethargic at getting to loose balls and long rebounds (particularly Plumlee), so we usually lose most of the loose balls... these were nice wins against good teams-- I hope it carries through to the end of the season.

I think this team could be better than last year, by virtue of replacing Rivers (poor defender) with Sulaimon (good defender)... but I still would like to see Duke learn how to box out one of these seasons, and I'd like to see Plumlee be more aggressive (as in past years) when chasing loose balls (and when finishing around rim).

Funny how we heard about the missing Louisville big man about 20 times, but no one ever mentioned the youngest Plumlee's absence for Duke. Also: I don't see all the fuss about Peyton Siva-- makes toooo many mistakes/turnovers, and doesn't shoot that well... he's decent but not great... they couldn't score to save their lives in the NCAA tourney against Cincy last year.... I hope this year's team does not peak early.

I concur. Our ability to check out against Louisville, especially in the last several minutes of the game when the Cardinals began to make their run, was almost nonexistent. I almost tackled my television at one point in pursuit of a loose ball. There were at least three straight possessions during that stretch that Louisville scored off second chance points resulting from either one or two offensive rebounds. We cannot allow that.

As you say, our guards need to become more aware of where their men are and do a more proactive job of keeping them off the boards. So not all of our rebounding woes inside against Louisville can be pinned on Mason. After all, the kid is a hell of a rebounder when he wants to be -- but that is the problem. There are some games when he just appears to float around and not play aggressively in that regard. He recorded 17 boards against Minnesota, yet only 3 against Kentucky. He grabbed 10 versus VCU, and then just seven versus Louisville. While Mason is playing so much better offensively, worlds apart from where he was most of last year (excluding perhaps the Ohio State game), he still has mental lapses at times where he just goes on auto pilot and seems to play on his natural ability alone. We need Mason to play with the same level of energy and monster-like focus on the glass each and every game as we saw from Brian Zoubek post-Maryland in 2010.

Other than that, Mason has been outstanding so far this season.

JNort
11-25-2012, 03:22 AM
I agree we appear to be a better defensive team this year, but I would note that our defensive efficiency ranking in Pomeroy is pretty much the same as it was last year just after the Kansas game, so the numbers don't necessarily back up what we've seen with our eyes. That said, our defense starting tanking in the Ohio State game last year and just kept getting worse, and I suspect this year it will continue to get better, which hopefully will validate our observations.

We also move the ball better and share the ball better, which were obvious deficiencies of last year's team. On the other hand, we have a lot less shooting skill and offensive firepower in general than last year's team and I don't know to what extent that balances things out.

Overall, my subjective assessment is to agree that this year's team is better than last year's team, as I expected it to be based on starting three seniors. We showed a lot of poise in this pre-season tournament and frankly had the demeanor of a team that was going to win no matter what, which is a vibe I seldom got from last year's team even while we were winning in Maui.

The biggest thing is, though, is to realize our perception of last year's team is largely based on the last two games while Ryan Kelly was injured. If he had played, we probably would have won the ACC tournament and at least gone to the Sweet 16, maybe the Elite Eight, and nobody would be talking as if the 2011-12 team was an aged relative with a terminal disease. I guess the reason I'm blathering along is that anything can happen in the NCAA tournament, and the high hopes and warm feelings we all have now shouldn't be bittered by a stumble at the end of the race, if such a sad event were to occur. In other words, let's enjoy what we have for as long as we have it.


How do we lose offensive firepower? I think it actually has gotten better. We lost Austin and Miles but gained Rasheed who plays better D than Rivers and scores "better" (within the offense) plus a new Mason who is without looking right now I am guessing averaging more than 10 pts better than he was at this time last year. Not to mention Cook who is pushing the ball better and scoring 10ppg which replaces Dawkins scoring but adds in the leadership and assists. Last year I think we just started out shooting better from 3. This team is better offensively right now though.

OldSchool
11-25-2012, 07:08 AM
There’s so much to like about this team.

I like the fact that different people will step up in crunch time to make something happen. It might be Mason or Ryan or Seth or Quinn or Rasheed or Tyler. Any one of them is capable of being the one in a critical situation to take on the game pressure and make a play. No single one of them is a crunch-time hog who everyone knows will be the man when the game is on the line. Of course Quinn is still developing and needs to find that balance between looking for his own shot and letting someone else step up, and that will be where our success will lie. So far so good.

I like the fact that our leader is our senior, veteran center who is our biggest, strongest and most athletic player. If the guards don’t feed him he could squash them like a bug (although Mason probably wouldn’t). But the guards need to be concerned at all times with finding a way to use Mason’s abilities. I’m still waiting to see them pick and roll Mason with a sharp pocket pass to the moving big man followed by Mason making a play at the rim or a dump off to Ryan in the face of rotation. If they can get that play down it’s extremely difficult to defend.

I think Marshall will be very important to this team this season. If he can be an effective backup center and spell Mason for meaningful periods during the game then that would allow Mason to be more aggressive and energetic and less concerned about foul trouble and we would not be giving up any size when Mason is out. Against Louisville, Mason smartly didn’t challenge a player at the rim a few times because he knew we could not afford to have him on the bench with more fouls.

I like Mason’s improved foul shooting. If he had not improved, we would not have gotten by VCU much less Louisville. His stroke doesn’t look that much different, but he is shooting them with such confidence it makes all the difference in his FT average.

I like the way Ryan is looking to shoot the mid-range jump shot. He’s not just shooting the three ball and making plays at the rim.

I like the touchdown passes to burn the press. It doesn’t always have to be a touchdown pass, you can also punish the press with two or three passes as long as guys are always aggressively looking for an opening to take it all the way to the rim.

Okay, I hear Kedsy telling us not to get too excited. But I like the fact that we get OSU at home this year and not on the road!

duke96
11-25-2012, 07:21 AM
I teach band. In band, every band stays for the trophies. Even if all you get is the "thanks for showing up" plaque. So if I'm the coach, out of respect, I stay for the presentation of all the awards and make my players stay as well. I would like to think that if we had lost, Coach K would've made the all-tournament selections stay and get their trophies.

Hence my comment.


Apples and oranges though. You always see that in band competitions (my dad and brother did Drum & Bugle corps) but you never see it in basketball. It's not classless to eschew a tradition that doesn't exist.

I attend a lot of concerts. Typically the bands play two sets and then, after the second set, they come back out for an encore performance. In today's game, neither team came out and played more basketball after the second half. Totally classless.

Indoor66
11-25-2012, 07:26 AM
Well hopefully this Duke team isn't peaking too early but so far this team has exceeded expectations. Duke is a good team and hopefully K will turn them into a great team.

Where do you get your downer pills? I think I need some - and to share some with Ozzie. :cool:

Indoor66
11-25-2012, 07:31 AM
How about RS? I hate typing names when I post from my phone so there must be an abreviation.

It is ONLY two more letters, for crying out loud. Allow the young man to have his given name.

DukeHLM'13
11-25-2012, 09:12 AM
Last year: win tough tournament with 3 tough games against tough teams, including high ranked team in championship-- then play high-ranked Ohio State... same this year. Like last year (what am I saying-- most years!) Duke doesn't know how to box out properly (especially our guards, who need it more than anyone), and like last year, Duke is very slow/lethargic at getting to loose balls and long rebounds (particularly Plumlee), so we usually lose most of the loose balls... these were nice wins against good teams-- I hope it carries through to the end of the season.


I think that one of our problems on the defensive glass is that the guards too often are over anxious to get out on the run. There was one play tonight where a long rebound came out to around the free throw line, one of L-ville's guards stepped down for the rebound while all three of our guards had already started up the court hoping for an easy fast break bucket.

Its like, when in football, the announcers talk about receivers thinking about their next move before they actually catch the ball. We need out guards to be a little less worried about scoring quickly and a little more worried about making sure that we actually end up with the ball.

Saratoga2
11-25-2012, 09:31 AM
I concur. Our ability to check out against Louisville, especially in the last several minutes of the game when the Cardinals began to make their run, was almost nonexistent. I almost tackled my television at one point in pursuit of a loose ball. There were at least three straight possessions during that stretch that Louisville scored off second chance points resulting from either one or two offensive rebounds. We cannot allow that.



Our guards were in serious foul trouble toward the end of the game and we can see how valuable Quinn was, scoring the last 8 points. I am sure coach K told them not to foul in the last couple of minutes as well. During the game, stopping Smith and Silva was no easy task. When they did funnel those drivers into Mason, he didn't provide the help defense one would have expected. They were all tired out by then, including the Louisville players and things were getting sloppy. That makes Quinns run down the stretch, even more impressive.

77devil
11-25-2012, 09:34 AM
Some non-play observations about the NBCSP post-game coverage:
-Loved the extended interviews and awards presentations (all tourny, MVP, etc.) You never get to see that stuff but these newer networks need that extra content.
-Did you catch the audience pan shot of all the beauty pageant contestants in their sashes? I'm not sure which pageant it was, but they wore state sashes and Miss North Carolina was posing with the team after the game.
-As the team was getting photographed with their trophy, someone blew a huge confetti cannon right into their faces and bodies from the right side. They all started cracking up, it was ridiculous.
-I'd love to hear what K was saying to Silva and Smith. Scott Van Pelt tweeted that it was the highest of high praise but also R rated. Did anyone catch it and can you find a way to post it within guidelines?
-I really wish they'd cover the handshake line without interruption so that I could watch the interactions. I love to see who gets the basic shake vs the hug vs the stop and whisper, etc.

I sat behind Miss NC USA in the first half. She was a very nice young women and a big Duke fan.

I was talking with 5 other Miss USAs at the concession stand. Very pleasant but a little light on the grey matter.

K had his game face on all week. Even last night
walking to the hotel elevator while fans were
clapping, he barely cracked a smile. All business.

Deslok
11-25-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm surprised no one has noted one other reason for some of our rebounding struggles. For whatever reason(good or bad, I'm not trying to say which), we switched hard on many of the picks plays in the second half against Louisville. As a result, Mason was often out at the three point line defending someone like Siva or Smith. He did a great job, generally speaking, in forcing them into difficult shots or making them give the ball up. But either the shot went up with Mason out at the three point line, or we weren't quick to try to switch back and as the play continued, he still wasn't underneath to rebound. As a result, one of Louisville's big men was in rebounding against one of our guards, which is obviously a tough task for us. And while I love much of Ryan's game, rebounding is not his strong suit. So without Mason, we didn't have anyone you really felt you could rely on to get the big board.

I don't remember it being as much of an issue with VCU, but I noted how often Mason seemed to be out defending a guard which then led to some issues rebounding against Louisville.

Dukeblue91
11-25-2012, 10:27 AM
I'm surprised no one has noted one other reason for some of our rebounding struggles. For whatever reason(good or bad, I'm not trying to say which), we switched hard on many of the picks plays in the second half against Louisville. As a result, Mason was often out at the three point line defending someone like Siva or Smith. He did a great job, generally speaking, in forcing them into difficult shots or making them give the ball up. But either the shot went up with Mason out at the three point line, or we weren't quick to try to switch back and as the play continued, he still wasn't underneath to rebound. As a result, one of Louisville's big men was in rebounding against one of our guards, which is obviously a tough task for us. And while I love much of Ryan's game, rebounding is not his strong suit. So without Mason, we didn't have anyone you really felt you could rely on to get the big board.

I don't remember it being as much of an issue with VCU, but I noted how often Mason seemed to be out defending a guard which then led to some issues rebounding against Louisville.

I fully agree with you and I too noticed this and it drove me crazy.
There were also a couple of times were Mason went back to last years bad habit of bringing the ball down around his knees and it cost us.
I think they were allot more tired after the VCU game then I thought.
But kudos to the team to work through this and come up with some great plays and not folding.

I have high expectations for this years team and hope that they have not reached their peak yet and will keep on improving.
Neither can I wait for our matchup with the holes this year.

CDu
11-25-2012, 10:44 AM
How do we lose offensive firepower? I think it actually has gotten better. We lost Austin and Miles but gained Rasheed who plays better D than Rivers and scores "better" (within the offense) plus a new Mason who is without looking right now I am guessing averaging more than 10 pts better than he was at this time last year. Not to mention Cook who is pushing the ball better and scoring 10ppg which replaces Dawkins scoring but adds in the leadership and assists. Last year I think we just started out shooting better from 3. This team is better offensively right now though.

Well, we lost two very good perimeter shooters (Rivers and Dawkins). We have added one good perimeter shooter (Sulaimon). So we have unquestionably lost some shooting skill.

That being said, I think the other additions (scorer/playmaker in Cook, Mason's improvements in the post and at the line, Sulaimon's ability to score within the offense) have, to this point at least, more than offset the losses in terms of offense. That's evidenced by our #2 offensive ranking per Pomeroy. Moving forward, we'll see if that remains the case. But we'll also be (eventually) adding an upgrade to our bench in Marshall, which should help. And our schedule gets much easier after Wednesday (unless NCSU or UNC steps it up a lot, we likely won't play a team of the caliber of Louisville/OSU again until the Elite 8).

The improvement of Cook has made a HUGE difference. He is just such a good playmaker, and he creates good shot opportunities for others. We missed a bunch of early looks last night in which he drew the defense and found a wide open shooter. Those will hopefully fall more frequently, and the machine will keep rolling.

I just love where the team is right now, save for the lack of boxing out. Mason is such a different player. Cook is such a different player. Sulaimon brings such a different dynamic to the floor than Rivers. Kelly is such an improved defender. And Curry is playing with so much more confidence.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
Regarding rebounding and boxing out, first of all let's be clear that we're talking about defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding is part of offensive efficiency, and while we're currently 246th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage, our overall offensive efficiency is #2 in the country, so it's hard to say our lack of offensive rebounding is hurting us very much.

So, on to defensive rebounding. Here's a chart with our defensive rebounding percentage for the past 17 years:



Year def reb pct
---- -----------
1997 63.7
1998 64.6
1999 65.1
2000 62.5
2001 62.9
2002 65.5
2003 65.1
2004 62.9
2005 62.7
2006 62.2
2007 69.6
2008 66.0
2009 66.8
2010 67.5
2011 66.8
2012 68.1
2013 64.4


These are unadjusted numbers, they're undoubtedly better after cupcake games and we haven't really played those yet. Despite that, so far we're ahead of 2001 and 2004 (and four other pretty good Duke teams) and about even with 1998. We're not even that far behind 1999, and after we play our December schedule my guess is we'll be right up there with that classic Duke squad as well.

Note also that our two best defensive rebounding teams in the past 17 years were 2007 and 2012, so good defensive rebounding apparently doesn't guarantee NCAA tournament success.

Regarding how our offense and defense compare to last season at this time, I couldn't find Pomeroy's numbers right after the Kansas game in Maui, but I did find them after the Ohio State game last season. At that point, our offensive efficiency was 116.3 (7th in the country) and our defensive efficiency was 90.6 (18th in the country). Since we completely tanked on both sides of the ball against Ohio State, our efficiency numbers right after the Kansas game were undoubtedly better, possibly significantly better.

Our current Pomeroy numbers are 117.7 in offense (2nd in country) and 90.4 in defense (23rd in country). So, possibly a little better in offense (though probably not, since our post-Ohio State number is so close and our offensive efficiency in that game was awful), and a little worse in defense (perhaps significantly worse since, again, our defensive efficiency was terrible against Ohio State).

Not what the eyes are telling us, is it? Anyway, my point is many of us our down on last year's team and celebrating that this year's team is so much better, but at this point last season, Duke was playing at a very high level, higher even than this year's team is playing. It's a long season, and we all hope the 2013 version of Duke basketball has the pieces in place for a long NCAAT run. But my advice (again) is to let the team run its race and sit back and enjoy the ride.

moonpie23
11-25-2012, 10:47 AM
The Iron Chef did indeed "cook" up an incredible meal with the clock running down......

CDu
11-25-2012, 11:02 AM
You are right in that we do not have an outstanding three-point shooting team. The absence of Andre Dawkins really hurts us, as it leaves us with just one lethal outside shooter and just two other good ones (Rahseed and Ryan). And thus far, Ryan hasn't been very good. The key, I think, is Quinn. It will be interesting to see if he can keep shooting with the consistency that he has. He's been very judicious for the most part in the shots that he does take, only shooting an average of three per game, which is a good thing as he is still not somebody that I have much confidence in when he shoots. But it is building. With another off-season in the gym, he might turn into a fantastic shooter.

The loss of Dawkins hurts in that he is a very good catch and shoot player and that's not something we have a lot of this year. But he is not a good defender and he brings little else to the table offensively. His replacement (Thornton) is a better defender and a better ballhandler, though not as good a shooter. Though, at the moment (small sample size alert), he's shooting pretty well from 3pt range (40%). I wouldn't expect Thornton to match Dawkins' 3pt shooting, but if he can hit ~35% of his 3s, I think he actually brings more to the table than Dawkins overall.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to have Dawkins in the rotation. It'd be great to have a guy who could come in and catch fire like Dawkins can - especially on a team like this where, if he's not hitting, he could be replaced in the lineup. Just that I think this team is well-suited to survive the loss of a really good 3pt threat on the offensive end, thanks to the improvements of Mason and Cook and the addition of Sulaimon.


Funny how we heard about the missing Louisville big man about 20 times, but no one ever mentioned the youngest Plumlee's absence for Duke. Also: I don't see all the fuss about Peyton Siva-- makes toooo many mistakes/turnovers, and doesn't shoot that well... he's decent but not great... they couldn't score to save their lives in the NCAA tourney against Cincy last year.... I hope this year's team does not peak early.

To be fair, Dieng was a much bigger loss for them than Marshall was for us. He was a starter and their leading rebounder and shotblocker. The loss of Dieng completely changed their interior defense. Further, they had no time to prepare for playing without Dieng, whereas our guys are very used to playing without Marshall.

I agree about Siva. He makes his share of mistakes, and is basically a good-but-not-great player. That said, he had a terrific second half, forcing turnovers and scoring big buckets.

CoachJ10
11-25-2012, 11:13 AM
Well, I hope an effective 7 man rotation will do it, because we shouldn't expect Coach K to go any deeper than that in games that count.

Agreed. A subtle part of this game (in my opinion) was K playing Mason for significant minutes with his 2 fouls in the first half. I think K wants to reinforce to MP2 just how important he is to our team and that he trusts him to play smart. This will not be the only time this season that Mason is in foul trouble...learning to handle that and still be the productive and important player he is will be the ultimate maturation for MP2. I look forward to Mason growing into that.

roywhite
11-25-2012, 11:22 AM
Our current Pomeroy numbers are 117.7 in offense (2nd in country) and 90.4 in defense (23rd in country). So, possibly a little better in offense (though probably not, since our post-Ohio State number is so close and our offensive efficiency in that game was awful), and a little worse in defense (perhaps significantly worse since, again, our defensive efficiency was terrible against Ohio State).

Not what the eyes are telling us, is it? Anyway, my point is many of us our down on last year's team and celebrating that this year's team is so much better, but at this point last season, Duke was playing at a very high level, higher even than this year's team is playing. It's a long season, and we all hope the 2013 version of Duke basketball has the pieces in place for a long NCAAT run. But my advice (again) is to let the team run its race and sit back and enjoy the ride.

Some interesting points, but I'd be shocked if this year's team does not substantially out-perform last year's team vs tOSU.

I like the 2012-13 defense much better, and also like the PG play.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-25-2012, 11:23 AM
And our schedule gets much easier after Wednesday (unless NCSU or UNC steps it up a lot, we likely won't play a team of the caliber of Louisville/OSU again until the Elite 8).
.


Yes, that's why the OSU game is so important. Take care of business Wednesday, and we are likely to receive at least a #2 seed if we win the ACC Reg. season or Tournament. We'll possibly split with State and UNC and maybe an upset loss somewhere along the line, but I doubt we'll have more than 5 losses going into the NCAA's.

NOTE: IF we win both the ACC reg. season and tournament - we'll be a lock for a #1 seed.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 11:32 AM
Yes, that's why the OSU game is so important. Take care of business Wednesday, and we are likely to receive at least a #2 seed if we win the ACC Reg. season or Tournament. We'll possibly split with State and UNC and maybe an upset loss somewhere along the line, but I doubt we'll have more than 5 losses going into the NCAA's.

NOTE: IF we win both the ACC reg. season and tournament - we'll be a lock for a #1 seed.

Our strength of schedule numbers will likely be better than any other top seed contender. So if we win the ACC regular season and/or tournament we should be a favorite for a #1 or #2 seed, regardless of our performance against Ohio State. So I don't think the game is critical for that reason.

That said, I believe the Ohio State game last year completely derailed our season. Our team lost confidence and our defense just kept getting worse. It gave teams a blueprint for how to beat us. I don't want any of that to happen this season.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 11:36 AM
I like the 2012-13 defense much better, and also like the PG play.

I do too. My point is last year after the Kansas game we looked like an offensive juggernaut who played pretty good defense and knew how to win against tough competition, and this year the numbers don't suggest we're any better than we were at this point last year (actually a little worse). So I'm trying to be cautious in setting my expectations for this year's team.

Dukeblue91
11-25-2012, 11:37 AM
Yes, that's why the OSU game is so important. Take care of business Wednesday, and we are likely to receive at least a #2 seed if we win the ACC Reg. season or Tournament. We'll possibly split with State and UNC and maybe an upset loss somewhere along the line, but I doubt we'll have more than 5 losses going into the NCAA's.

NOTE: IF we win both the ACC reg. season and tournament - we'll be a lock for a #1 seed.

Those are quite some lofty expectations and a little early to speculate on I think.
But in regards of NC State I say this, It seems quite telling as how they have played the last 2 games.
One would think that a good team would come out poised after getting upset with a statement.
They either have bought into their own hype or we will actually see them Implode ala UNC in 2010 right before our eyes.
NC State has not shown anything to make them come to be remotely as good as they were hyped to be the beginning of the season and we may not even have to be worried about splitting anything with them at all.

jipops
11-25-2012, 11:54 AM
I do too. My point is last year after the Kansas game we looked like an offensive juggernaut who played pretty good defense and knew how to win against tough competition, and this year the numbers don't suggest we're any better than we were at this point last year (actually a little worse). So I'm trying to be cautious in setting my expectations for this year's team.

3 seniors in the starting lineup, that happen to be reliable scorers, may be the biggest difference.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 12:22 PM
3 seniors in the starting lineup, that happen to be reliable scorers, may be the biggest difference.

Yes, it could be. As we've discussed in the past, Coach K Duke teams with three seniors playing big roles have almost always had big years.

licc85
11-25-2012, 12:26 PM
This team moves the ball about as well as any Duke team I've seen. We consistently pass the ball around effectively without throwing it away, and find the open man. We took care of the ball extremely well in this tournament. We had just 8 turnovers against a tough VCU defense, and 14 against Louisville, which is also one of the best on the defensive end. Plus, 3 of those TOs were due to pushing fouls where a Louisville player probably flopped.

Nice to see Quinn finally getting the recognition he deserves, and was a beast closing out Louisville basically single handedly. I think the MVP of the tournament was clearly Mason, but I like that Quinn got the award. He needs this for his confidence more than Mason. I loved the expression on Quinn's face when he named MVP, I think he was genuinely surprised that he won it. Quinn played something like 35 mins a game over the course of the 3 games in the Bahamas, and I think he's got the confidence he needs now to be one of the best PGs in the nation. All the idiot CBS analysts who left him out of the top 50 PGs should just quit their jobs now.

This team clearly has a ton of awesome chemistry and we have the pieces to win a championship this year. If we continue to take care of the ball as we have and maintain this level of defense, there's no other team in the nation that has a better chance to reach the final 4. I'm so proud of the way we played, and hopefully we can do it again vs a great OSU team on Wednesday.

lotusland
11-25-2012, 12:35 PM
u
It is ONLY two more letters, for crying out loud. Allow the young man to have his given name.
Uh no. I'm pretty sure RS doesn't care but u r welcome 2 your outrage.

coachbrent
11-25-2012, 02:17 PM
2963

BD80
11-25-2012, 02:55 PM
... I was talking with 5 other Miss USAs at the concession stand. Very pleasant but a little light on the grey matter. ...

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Oh, maybe this goes in the top movie quotes thread.

Saratoga2
11-25-2012, 04:52 PM
Regarding rebounding and boxing out, first of all let's be clear that we're talking about defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding is part of offensive efficiency, and while we're currently 246th in the country in offensive rebounding percentage, our overall offensive efficiency is #2 in the country, so it's hard to say our lack of offensive rebounding is hurting us very much.

So, on to defensive rebounding. Here's a chart with our defensive rebounding percentage for the past 17 years:



Year def reb pct
---- -----------
1997 63.7
1998 64.6
1999 65.1
2000 62.5
2001 62.9
2002 65.5
2003 65.1
2004 62.9
2005 62.7
2006 62.2
2007 69.6
2008 66.0
2009 66.8
2010 67.5
2011 66.8
2012 68.1
2013 64.4


These are unadjusted numbers, they're undoubtedly better after cupcake games and we haven't really played those yet. Despite that, so far we're ahead of 2001 and 2004 (and four other pretty good Duke teams) and about even with 1998. We're not even that far behind 1999, and after we play our December schedule my guess is we'll be right up there with that classic Duke squad as well.

Note also that our two best defensive rebounding teams in the past 17 years were 2007 and 2012, so good defensive rebounding apparently doesn't guarantee NCAA tournament success.

Regarding how our offense and defense compare to last season at this time, I couldn't find Pomeroy's numbers right after the Kansas game in Maui, but I did find them after the Ohio State game last season. At that point, our offensive efficiency was 116.3 (7th in the country) and our defensive efficiency was 90.6 (18th in the country). Since we completely tanked on both sides of the ball against Ohio State, our efficiency numbers right after the Kansas game were undoubtedly better, possibly significantly better.

Our current Pomeroy numbers are 117.7 in offense (2nd in country) and 90.4 in defense (23rd in country). So, possibly a little better in offense (though probably not, since our post-Ohio State number is so close and our offensive efficiency in that game was awful), and a little worse in defense (perhaps significantly worse since, again, our defensive efficiency was terrible against Ohio State).

Not what the eyes are telling us, is it? Anyway, my point is many of us our down on last year's team and celebrating that this year's team is so much better, but at this point last season, Duke was playing at a very high level, higher even than this year's team is playing. It's a long season, and we all hope the 2013 version of Duke basketball has the pieces in place for a long NCAAT run. But my advice (again) is to let the team run its race and sit back and enjoy the ride.

When Louisville were getting 3 or even 4 offensive rebounds in one play, my eyes told me our boxing out was poor and our aggressivness was not there. Some of that was due to being tired and some due to foul issues and I also thought some was due to Mason being out of position. Two of those are correctable, since when Marshall comes we shouldn't be as tired and fouls shouldn't be as much of an issue. The third is a matter of coaching, especially since our bigs hedge on defense and is partly due to player understanding and determination. Solving the third rebouding/help defense issue will take a major effort from Mason and if he does, it would greatly improve his game.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-25-2012, 04:59 PM
Our strength of schedule numbers will likely be better than any other top seed contender. So if we win the ACC regular season and/or tournament we should be a favorite for a #1 or #2 seed, regardless of our performance against Ohio State. So I don't think the game is critical for that reason.

Unless we're competing against OSU for the last #1 seed or Region preference. Also, when seeding is being selected by a group of people who may or may not know much about basketball, head-to-head record could be important.


Those are quite some lofty expectations and a little early to speculate on I think.
But in regards of NC State I say this, It seems quite telling as how they have played the last 2 games.
One would think that a good team would come out poised after getting upset with a statement.
They either have bought into their own hype or we will actually see them Implode ala UNC in 2010 right before our eyes.
NC State has not shown anything to make them come to be remotely as good as they were hyped to be the beginning of the season and we may not even have to be worried about splitting anything with them at all.

Yes, I would agree that those are indeed lofty expectations, but considering Duke has either won the regular season or tournament every year since 1997 (except 07, 08 and 12) I don't think it's unreasonable to expect. Nor after their performance this month do I believe it's too early to speculate, either.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 05:04 PM
The third is a matter of coaching, especially since our bigs hedge on defense and is partly due to player understanding and determination.

Well, yes, of course it's a matter of coaching. The defense Coach K wants the team to play is not conducive to large defensive rebounding totals. I think it says something that our 2nd best defensive rebounding performance in the past 17 years ranked us only 168th in the country (and our best defensive rebounding performance in that time came from our worst team in those 17 years). Clearly, to Coach K, other defensive principles are more important than defensive rebounding. Our overall numbers will probably get better when we play some cupcake games in December, but this is not a problem that's going to be "solved." It's an undesirable by-product of our defensive design. For the most part, as Duke fans in the Coach K era, we pretty much have to accept it.

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 05:07 PM
Unless we're competing against OSU for the last #1 seed or Region preference. Also, when seeding is being selected by a group of people who may or may not know much about basketball, head-to-head record could be important.

Well, every game against a good team might be important for that reason. Your original post seemed to suggest the Ohio State game was more important for seeding purposes than the others.

77devil
11-25-2012, 05:08 PM
I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Oh, maybe this goes in the top movie quotes thread.

Shocked indeed. The casino and sports book was a short walk to the arena, but at least no bets on the tournament could be made there. One of the lovely Miss USAs, who will remain anonymous, assured me that the big money was on Louisville.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Well, every game against a good team might be important for that reason. Your original post seemed to suggest the Ohio State game was more important for seeding purposes than the others.

To clarify, I'm projecting OSU to be a #1 seed candidate come years-end. If they prove to not be, then you're correct, the game on Wednesday isn't nearly as important. Looking at our schedule, I don't see another potential #1 seed left to play at this point, hence why I feel like this upcoming game should/could be valuable later.

COYS
11-25-2012, 05:22 PM
Well, yes, of course it's a matter of coaching. The defense Coach K wants the team to play is not conducive to large defensive rebounding totals. I think it says something that our 2nd best defensive rebounding performance in the past 17 years ranked us only 168th in the country (and our best defensive rebounding performance in that time came from our worst team in those 17 years). Clearly, to Coach K, other defensive principles are more important than defensive rebounding. Our overall numbers will probably get better when we play some cupcake games in December, but this is not a problem that's going to be "solved." It's an undesirable by-product of our defensive design. For the most part, as Duke fans in the Coach K era, we pretty much have to accept it.

This is spot on. K's defense stresses tight ball pressure, overplay in the passing lanes, and taking away the three point shot and the easy post entry pass. Ideally, this forces lots of live ball turnovers that lead to easy buckets for Duke and forces opposing teams to break Duke down in one on one situations where there are always help defenders ready to step up if the first guy is beaten. While this will lead to the occasional layup when the help defense comes too late or a lower defensive rebounding percentage due to all the switching in screens, the idea is that by taking away easy threes (the highest value shot in basketball), and preventing the opposition from comfortably running their offensive sets, we can make up for the offensive boards through steals and forcing a large volume of low value contested two point shots. Usually, the gamble works as Duke is most often in the top 20 if not the top 10 in defensive efficiency.

That being said, there is no doubt that both Ryan and Mason can improve their rebounding through better box-outs. Mason has been a beast on the glass his entire career, but I think he has improved as he's improved his positioning. He can become utterly unstoppable if he ever reaches the point where he ALWAYS boxes out. Ryan's weakness is no doubt his rebounding. He lacks the hops of Mason and must, therefore, be even more vigilant about boxing out. He missed a few assignments yesterday that led to points for Louisville. Duke doesn't have to become a dominant rebounding team, but if we make incremental improvements on box outs, it might make the difference in close games.

Furniture
11-25-2012, 08:00 PM
My D just told me that students are already in line for Wednesdays game!

gumbomoop
11-25-2012, 08:23 PM
I am so impressed with Rasheed.... He has that "killer instinct" that we like to talk about from time to time. He also has great confidence in himself and a powerful smile.


Rasheed continues to assert himself....

Amen to these comments. Whereas last season Austin Rivers had a fierce look on his face, possessed a killer instinct, and asserted himself, Rasheed's demeanor and play are also pretty impressive. His confidence shows, and his teammates seem to be energized by it. Something of a contrast to last season.


Ryan's timing on the defensive end is superb. He may not be the greatest "athlete" out there but he is such a smart player and always finds a way to contest shots.


Ryan Kelly had his usual excellent showing (but under-noticed by the announcers, as usual)....

I used to think, and say, Ryan is a sneaky shot-blocker. I'm coming to the view that he's a shot-blocker, period. He's averaging 2.3 BPG, against strong competition. Say he winds up with ~ 2 BPG over this entire season. Would that qualify him as a shot-blocker? Does he have to average 3 BPG?

Kedsy
11-25-2012, 08:41 PM
I used to think, and say, Ryan is a sneaky shot-blocker. I'm coming to the view that he's a shot-blocker, period. He's averaging 2.3 BPG, against strong competition. Say he winds up with ~ 2 BPG over this entire season. Would that qualify him as a shot-blocker? Does he have to average 3 BPG?

Ryan has been an outstanding shot-blocker since he came to Duke. Even as a seldom used freshman, his block percentage would have been one of the best in the country if he'd played enough. The fact that he can't win a high jump competition doesn't change his shot-blocking prowess. I wish more people would see that, and I'm glad you've finally come around.

Newton_14
11-25-2012, 08:55 PM
Ryan has been an outstanding shot-blocker since he came to Duke. Even as a seldom used freshman, his block percentage would have been one of the best in the country if he'd played enough. The fact that he can't win a high jump competition doesn't change his shot-blocking prowess. I wish more people would see that, and I'm glad you've finally come around.

I think he is a great shot-blocker, which is why it drives me nuts when he tries to take a charge on a guard. I know K teaches and preaches charge taking, which is fine. For our bigs, I would rather see a model where they try to block the shot if it is a guard or smaller forward, and try to draw the charge if it is a bigger player.

I just think you want to intimidate the smaller players to discourage them from driving, or put it in their mind that they will need to do something special to avoid getting their shot sent to the fifth row.

But yeah, Ryan is really good with shot-blocking. I thought both the 4th and 5th foul calls on him last night were bad calls. On the 4th, the guy jumped into Ryan which created some body contact, but not enough to warrant the call imo. He had all ball at the top.

gep
11-25-2012, 09:09 PM
I find it funny how Mason takes his hat off when talking to the report.

I noticed it immediately... when he paused to take of his hat, before responding. I thought it was a well-mannered, polite, respectful action. For me, I was impressed. :cool:

ice-9
11-25-2012, 10:21 PM
When Louisville were getting 3 or even 4 offensive rebounds in one play, my eyes told me our boxing out was poor and our aggressivness was not there. Some of that was due to being tired and some due to foul issues and I also thought some was due to Mason being out of position. Two of those are correctable, since when Marshall comes we shouldn't be as tired and fouls shouldn't be as much of an issue. The third is a matter of coaching, especially since our bigs hedge on defense and is partly due to player understanding and determination. Solving the third rebouding/help defense issue will take a major effort from Mason and if he does, it would greatly improve his game.

I think the real problem isn't that, but more when Louisville's guards penetrated into the lane and Mason came over to challenge the shot. Most of the time, the shot missed but Mason's man was there to collect the offensive rebound. The "fix" here of course is to prevent penetration, or for our guard who lost his man to switch quickly and box out Mason's. (Easier said than done, I know.)

While I'm sure Mason can improve as a rebounder, I don't think he's a liability. Unfortunately, KenPom's player stats are now a premium feature, but I remember Mason being rated as an above average rebounder. Can someone with access confirm or clarify?

jv001
11-25-2012, 10:29 PM
Ryan has been an outstanding shot-blocker since he came to Duke. Even as a seldom used freshman, his block percentage would have been one of the best in the country if he'd played enough. The fact that he can't win a high jump competition doesn't change his shot-blocking prowess. I wish more people would see that, and I'm glad you've finally come around.

Pleased with: 1. shot blocking 2. ability to take a charge 3. mid range game. Not pleased with: 1. defensive rebounding 2. settling for the three ball. While I'm very excited about our start, I'm also excited with the room for improvment of this years squad. GoDuke!

DevilYouthCoach
11-25-2012, 11:36 PM
This team moves the ball about as well as any Duke team I've seen. We consistently pass the ball around effectively without throwing it away, and find the open man. We took care of the ball extremely well in this tournament. We had just 8 turnovers against a tough VCU defense, and 14 against Louisville, which is also one of the best on the defensive end. Plus, 3 of those TOs were due to pushing fouls where a Louisville player probably flopped.

Nice to see Quinn finally getting the recognition he deserves, and was a beast closing out Louisville basically single handedly. I think the MVP of the tournament was clearly Mason, but I like that Quinn got the award. He needs this for his confidence more than Mason. I loved the expression on Quinn's face when he named MVP, I think he was genuinely surprised that he won it. Quinn played something like 35 mins a game over the course of the 3 games in the Bahamas, and I think he's got the confidence he needs now to be one of the best PGs in the nation. All the idiot CBS analysts who left him out of the top 50 PGs should just quit their jobs now.

This team clearly has a ton of awesome chemistry and we have the pieces to win a championship this year. If we continue to take care of the ball as we have and maintain this level of defense, there's no other team in the nation that has a better chance to reach the final 4. I'm so proud of the way we played, and hopefully we can do it again vs a great OSU team on Wednesday.


I watched Quinn Cook a lot in high school when he was a junior and playing for DeMatha in the D.C. area. He was named Metro player of the year that year and led a fabulous group to the City Championship and a very high national ranking. He was the floor leader playing with Victor Oladipo (Indiana), Jerian Grant (Notre Dame), Michael Hopkins (Georgetown) and James Robinson (Pittsburgh). Quinn is the real deal, and it's great to see him playing with confidence again. He is capable of Hurley-like spectacular plays, but he is clearly concentrating on making the smart play this year. He can also take over a game when necessary, and I was happy to see that he has the confidence of the coaches, teammates and fans to do what he did to Louisville at the end. I really hope he stays all four years!

toooskies
11-26-2012, 12:17 AM
While I'm sure Mason can improve as a rebounder, I don't think he's a liability. Unfortunately, KenPom's player stats are now a premium feature, but I remember Mason being rated as an above average rebounder. Can someone with access confirm or clarify?

Mason is fine, near his career rate. Ryan, on the other hand, is rebounding like a guard, as are all our other forwards.

cf-62
11-26-2012, 05:38 AM
I teach band. In band, every band stays for the trophies. Even if all you get is the "thanks for showing up" plaque. So if I'm the coach, out of respect, I stay for the presentation of all the awards and make my players stay as well. I would like to think that if we had lost, Coach K would've made the all-tournament selections stay and get their trophies.

Hence my comment.

I really can't believe you're using a judged music competition as comparison to a D-1 basketball tournament. It's not classless. Teams other than Louisville weren't even there. The VCU guys stayed to watch a little of our game, but they left with 2 minutes to play in the first half.

For reference, check out "A March to Madness" from John Feinstein. The ACC stopped making the runners up stay for the trophy ceremony about 20 years ago. I believe it was referred to as ludicrous.

A judged band competition is an all day event, where you don't know the results until the end. There's a point to staying until the end, including watching other shows. A huge difference than a tournament where teams knew their results 3, 6, or 8 hours before the championship game ended.

Oh yeah, there's no such thing as a "thanks for showing up" plaque in real events (don't flame me about band competitions being real. I know first hand the pressure to perform, the hours of practice, and the elation of nailing a show for the judges).

At any rate, it's kind of classless to rag on a bunch of D-I teams as "classless" for not showing up to bow down to us as the champions.

COYS
11-26-2012, 10:14 AM
While I'm sure Mason can improve as a rebounder, I don't think he's a liability. Unfortunately, KenPom's player stats are now a premium feature, but I remember Mason being rated as an above average rebounder. Can someone with access confirm or clarify?

StatSheet (www.statsheet.com) has individual player stats, including offensive rating, rebound percentage, assist percentage, etc. While it lacks the sophistication of Kenpom's team rating system which attempts to correct the raw data to account for strength of schedule, etc, StatSheet is still a very useful source for individual statistics. It even has a cool player comparison tool which allows a viewer to compare one player to up to four other current or former college basketball players from any team.

1 24 90
11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
2972

Love the confetti cannon.

CDu
11-26-2012, 02:05 PM
2972

Love the confetti cannon.

The looks on Cook's and Thornton's faces are priceless.