What Mason is Doing

[mr. synellinden]

... Let's give it a name. It's called Carawelling. Or C-Welling, for short.

It's now five games into the season, and here are his stats.

20.6 ppg
10.6 rpg
2.0 apg
2.0 bpg
69% shooting from the field
and 80% shooting from the line

Those aren't just ACC player of the year stats - they're national player of the year stats. It's pretty remarkable what a different player he is offensively, and it's been very fun to watch. You can see how much he benefits from playing with a point guard like Cook (as he did with Kyrie) - and I think it shows that he can be an offensive weapon in the NBA.

I thought it was very interesting yesterday when the announcers said Mason's decision to return was an easier one than people think. If he continues playing like this, it was a decision worth millions of dollars because it probably moved him up 10-15 spots in the draft.

[nmduke2001]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/11/24/duke-seth-plumlee-thinking-less-succeeding-more-atlantis/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a3

[rthomas]

Plus, he is setting a hella lot of picks, because thats what big men at Duke do for 4 years.

[Wander]

I've mentioned this before, but there are an unusually high amount of players who make huge leaps from their junior to senior years at Duke. Carawell, Redick, Demarcus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Nolan. Is there any other school that has something comparable? I don't really know what that means, but I'm not hugely surprised that Plumlee is doing so well.

[OldPhiKap]

Plus, he is setting a hella lot of picks, because thats what big men at Duke do for 4 years.

Well, if they don't make it to lottery pick status it's because we don't coach them. If they do go lottery, it's because they had so much talent that anyone could coach them.

Seth must be wrong. Clearly, this cannot be the case of a gifted kid getting good coaching. Does not compute.

[tele]

He can still get better too. His jumper is going to improve his post game even more, so he can still work in more step through, up and under, and drop step moves off ball or head fakes. Then things will really get fun, and he will have to be double teamed. He can also improve the range of his jumper.

[sporthenry]

He can still get better too. His jumper is going to improve his post game even more, so he can still work in more step through, up and under, and drop step moves off ball or head fakes. Then things will really get fun, and he will have to be double teamed. He can also improve the range of his jumper.

Well sadly, I don't think we'll see these things come to fruition in a Duke uniform. Certainly the growth in Mason's game this year has been outstanding but his offense from a purely back to the basket is still a bit limited and his jump shot is not something that Duke's offense will probably feature.

[OldPhiKap]

Well sadly, I don't think we'll see these things come to fruition in a Duke uniform. Certainly the growth in Mason's game this year has been outstanding but his offense from a purely back to the basket is still a bit limited and his jump shot is not something that Duke's offense will probably feature.

Disagree. Mason often gets the ball 8-14 feet away. He can get these shots IF he shows he can hit them with regularity.

[killerleft]

Perhaps Mason was subconsciously waiting for his older brother to graduate before he showed off?

[basket1544]

Hope Marshall doesn't wait!

[cspan37421]

The free throw improvement is certainly the biggest change. He seems to have a new motion - looked a bit unusual, but if it works, then it's the right one for him.

I seem to recall late in Shaq's career he started shooting much better from the line. Not sure if it was for a season or just a streak, but IIRC the story went that he finally went back to shooting them the way he did in HS, the way his dad taught him.

It seems that too often players are taught that there's only one right way. While I think it's worthwhile to point out some of the basic geometry of shooting a basketball (namely, that a line-drive free throw has a much narrower window for inconsistency), once you've taken that into consideration, it needn't matter if you shoot it underhand, with a high arc, modest arc, or even use the backboard square. Whatever you can do for the best accuracy, do that.

I'd love to hear the story of who helped him change his approach, and what it was. I'm sure they've tried other techniques too, but this one really seems to work for him.

OP is right, NPOY is not out of the question.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The free throw improvement is certainly the biggest change.

THIS.

It changes everything that he's increased his FT shooting about 30%. I'm floored, I don't understand it, but man I love it.

[wilko]

I'll tell ya what hes doing...
Hes kicking posterior.

[sporthenry]

The free throw improvement is certainly the biggest change. He seems to have a new motion - looked a bit unusual, but if it works, then it's the right one for him.

I seem to recall late in Shaq's career he started shooting much better from the line. Not sure if it was for a season or just a streak, but IIRC the story went that he finally went back to shooting them the way he did in HS, the way his dad taught him.

It seems that too often players are taught that there's only one right way. While I think it's worthwhile to point out some of the basic geometry of shooting a basketball (namely, that a line-drive free throw has a much narrower window for inconsistency), once you've taken that into consideration, it needn't matter if you shoot it underhand, with a high arc, modest arc, or even use the backboard square. Whatever you can do for the best accuracy, do that.

I'd love to hear the story of who helped him change his approach, and what it was. I'm sure they've tried other techniques too, but this one really seems to work for him.

OP is right, NPOY is not out of the question.

Yeah, his FT shooting change, over 27 points better his senior year than his career will definitely have a story along with it. I'm sure ESPN or CBS will provide us with the story but it'll be interesting to see who of the coaches helped. True testament to his character as well.

And I agree with the bold part above. Perhaps we should change the thread to Plumlee NPOY Vigil. In November, I'd say it appears to be a 3 player race with Mason, McCollum and Deshaun Thomas with Thomas probably edging out Mason although we'll have a benchmark when they play each other.

[Duke76]

The free throw improvement is certainly the biggest change. He seems to have a new motion - looked a bit unusual, but if it works, then it's the right one for him.

I seem to recall late in Shaq's career he started shooting much better from the line. Not sure if it was for a season or just a streak, but IIRC the story went that he finally went back to shooting them the way he did in HS, the way his dad taught him.

It seems that too often players are taught that there's only one right way. While I think it's worthwhile to point out some of the basic geometry of shooting a basketball (namely, that a line-drive free throw has a much narrower window for inconsistency), once you've taken that into consideration, it needn't matter if you shoot it underhand, with a high arc, modest arc, or even use the backboard square. Whatever you can do for the best accuracy, do that.

I'd love to hear the story of who helped him change his approach, and what it was. I'm sure they've tried other techniques too, but this one really seems to work for him.

OP is right, NPOY is not out of the question.

It was Coach K who turned him around....it was in that seth article I believe, K told him to not dribble the ball just get up there and shoot it without thinking....keep it simple.....brilliant! Master at work! Most dramatic turn around I have ever seen at Duke...In fact that would be an interesting historical question...who has made the most dramatic turn around in a Duke uniform?

[greybeard]

This year coming in K said time and again that Mason was going to be featured this year. Last year, Knight would comment that there was a clear passing lane and the ball did not go in. Now it does. On the other hand, last year he was comfortable and effective in driving from the middle of the court down the lane, and often relied on a sweet spin move about mid way to the basket. He didn't go to straight for the basket often, and almost never drove from the foul line extended. This year he has a much more diverse attack-the-basket game from 15-17 feet, dribbling and finishing with either hand, in diverse and at least one really hot way (he drove the baseline right to left, began scooping the ball up with his right hand as he planted his left foot at a 10-25% angle away from the baseline, continued to bring the ball up in front of himself and released it overhead while facing away from the basket with reverse spin). I'm not saying that he did not have this kind of game in him to some degree when he arrived at Duke four years ago. Actually, I think he did. But, there is no question that he worked on it throughout the offseason in an organized way. I should think that his exporations of how to get it done from these positions were laid out by the coaching staff and probably walked through the regimen a few times while that sort of thing was within the rules.

By the way, while I am nuts about his trajectory, shots off the baskboard are pretty forgiving when it comes to speed; straight on shots are not, the ball needs to drop in. If he has practiced from certain spots, who knows, he might well have that down much better than one would otherwise think.

[-bdbd]

People, people....

Don't get all excited. This is just a mirage, invented (diabolically) by Coach K.

Everyone knows... all that Duke big men are able to do is set screens (and flop)!!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Sixthman]

You can see a different level of confidence and committment on the floor. Mason is obviously personally a very intelligent guy who in the past sometimes did not play smart on the floor. That problem seems gone. He is playing like he knows this is his team and he has to lead by example at all times. The numbers, I think tell another story, namely that Mason has always played at a higher level than even Duke fans have acknowledged. If you take his points and rebounds from last season, and increase them proportionately based upon the additional minutes played this season, which are the product of Miles graduating and Mason being on the floor at the end of games because free throws are not an issue, and adjust points from the line based upon his higher free throw percentage this year, you basically get his numbers so far this season. In fact, if Mason stays healthy, the numbers may actually go up a little as the season goes on.

[basket1544]

In fact that would be an interesting historical question...who has made the most dramatic turn around in a Duke uniform?

Zoubeard. No question.

[COYS]

Zoubeard. No question.

We tend to take Nolan for granted because of how dominant he became in the last two years of his career, but the turnaround between sophomore year, when he lost his starting spot first to Greg and then to Elliot, and his junior year when he became one of the best guards in the country, won the West Regional MOP award, and of course helped bring home Number Four for Duke was pretty dramatic. We all knew he had it in him. We just did not realize he would be capable of elevating his play to such an elite level so (seemingly) effortlessly.

[Listen to Quants]

THIS.

It changes everything that he's increased his FT shooting about 30%. I'm floored, I don't understand it, but man I love it.

Like you, I love it. Since it is just a small-ish sample, and sadly the previous performance was from a large sample, I'm far from convinced it is a permanent change. But I am hoping. </wet blanket>

[Newton_14]

Like you, I love it. Since it is just a small-ish sample, and sadly the previous performance was from a large sample, I'm far from convinced it is a permanent change. But I am hoping. </wet blanket>

But it really isn't a small sample. If you go back the final 10-12 games last season, combined with now, Mason is above 75%. He could regress I suppose, but it sure looks like he has worked himself into a 70%+ foul shooter, which really, is incredible. The one remaining test, is maintaining that level at home. Last year, outside of one or two games, it was in Cameron where he struggled the most.

Last night, I found myself hoping Louisville would foul Mason in the last minute of the game, and when they did that on the one occasion, there was no doubt in my mind he was going to drain them.

Just a remarkable turnaround.

[noworries]

We tend to take Nolan for granted because of how dominant he became in the last two years of his career, but the turnaround between sophomore year, when he lost his starting spot first to Greg and then to Elliot, and his junior year when he became one of the best guards in the country, won the West Regional MOP award, and of course helped bring home Number Four for Duke was pretty dramatic. We all knew he had it in him. We just did not realize he would be capable of elevating his play to such an elite level so (seemingly) effortlessly.

But he went from being a very good player to NPOY candidate(he might have won/shared 1 NPOY award?) b/w junior and senior year. Not disagreeing at all that the sophomore to junior was a huge jump as well, cause it certainly was. Ummm...Sheed?

[JasonEvans]

Perhaps Mason was subconsciously waiting for his older brother to graduate before he showed off?

Hope Marshall doesn't wait!

Dissent -- if Marshall wants to wait until next year to become a double-double machine, I can live with that ;)

-Jason

[Wander]

Needs to be said:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/21160771/plumlee-leads-the-player-of-the-year-watch

[Josephd0]

I was going to start a new thread, but saw this one. Right now Mason is being discussed as the front runner for NPOY. That's a long way off, but what if he wins it? Chances are, he'll be in the conversation all year and that alone is going to be great publicity for what a big man can do at Duke. If Duke wins the National Championship or if Mace wins NPOY, I wonder how quickly K will be able to lock down a Top 5 big man? If Mason continues on a pace even close to what he's done so far, he's a lock for a high draft pick too. Given that Duke has probably already faced the toughest competition they will see in the Regular Season, his numbers could even go up. Especially since he's managed to do that the past few years once the ACC regular season kicks off.

I'll be happy to see this characterization of the Duke Program die. I think Mason might be bigger to this program than any of us realize at the moment.

[Nosbleuatu]

I was going to start a new thread, but saw this one. Right now Mason is being discussed as the front runner for NPOY. That's a long way off, but what if he wins it? Chances are, he'll be in the conversation all year and that alone is going to be great publicity for what a big man can do at Duke. If Duke wins the National Championship or if Mace wins NPOY, I wonder how quickly K will be able to lock down a Top 5 big man? If Mason continues on a pace even close to what he's done so far, he's a lock for a high draft pick too. Given that Duke has probably already faced the toughest competition they will see in the Regular Season, his numbers could even go up. Especially since he's managed to do that the past few years once the ACC regular season kicks off.

I'll be happy to see this characterization of the Duke Program die. I think Mason might be bigger to this program than any of us realize at the moment.


How many recruiting myths does Mason have a chance of killing this year?

1. Big man development (he's clearly made huge strides this year, both in aggressiveness and FT shooting).
2. Use of a big man by K (you don't average 20/10 just knocking people over all game).
... What else?

Does Wojo's credibility go up for all of this? Or did he just get taller over the summer?

[OldPhiKap]

How many recruiting myths does Mason have a chance of killing this year?

1. Big man development (he's clearly made huge strides this year, both in aggressiveness and FT shooting).
2. Use of a big man by K (you don't average 20/10 just knocking people over all game).
... What else?

Does Wojo's credibility go up for all of this? Or did he just get taller over the summer?

Ryan said after the game that Wojo has been working on his outside shooting and holding the follow-through, and the second big three when he held it for an extended time he was looking right at Wojo.

But did Mason set any picks last night? That's what the critics want to know.

[Indoor66]

How many recruiting myths does Mason have a chance of killing this year?

1. Big man development (he's clearly made huge strides this year, both in aggressiveness and FT shooting).
2. Use of a big man by K (you don't average 20/10 just knocking people over all game).
... What else?

Does Wojo's credibility go up for all of this? Or did he just get taller over the summer?

On this board I vote for taller. :cool:

[Josephd0]

Mason is definitely still popping out and setting screens. I believe he was setting a screen out top in the first half that he rolled to the basket off of when he got the ball and went up for what ended up being Thomas' second foul. That's if I remember the play correctly. However, he was out top setting screens for sure in the first half. I think he was also responsible for setting some screens for Quin and Sulaimon getting them free in the second half.

[nocilla]

I was going to start a new thread, but saw this one. Right now Mason is being discussed as the front runner for NPOY. That's a long way off, but what if he wins it? Chances are, he'll be in the conversation all year and that alone is going to be great publicity for what a big man can do at Duke. If Duke wins the National Championship or if Mace wins NPOY, I wonder how quickly K will be able to lock down a Top 5 big man? If Mason continues on a pace even close to what he's done so far, he's a lock for a high draft pick too. Given that Duke has probably already faced the toughest competition they will see in the Regular Season, his numbers could even go up. Especially since he's managed to do that the past few years once the ACC regular season kicks off.

I'll be happy to see this characterization of the Duke Program die. I think Mason might be bigger to this program than any of us realize at the moment.

Opposing coaches will just tell the recruits that they will have to put in 3 years of setting screens before they are allowed to be an offensive presence at Duke. But if you come to my school, you will be featured on offense right away, trust me!

[Kedsy]

But did Mason set any picks last night? That's what the critics want to know.

As you well know, he set several. The difference is he's rolling to the basket with more authority and the guards are looking for him when he does.

[OldPhiKap]

As you well know, he set several. The difference is he's rolling to the basket with more authority and the guards are looking for him when he does.

Carlos Boozer made a habitual feast off of that play for a long, long time. No reason to believe Mason cannot do it as well.

Good stuff.

[wilko]

Mason also makes passes..

[Kedsy]

Opposing coaches will just tell the recruits that they will have to put in 3 years of setting screens before they are allowed to be an offensive presence at Duke. But if you come to my school, you will be featured on offense right away, trust me!

If a kid isn't really sold on Duke in the first place, there are any number of myths he'll swallow. If the kid is truly interested in Duke, then I think this sort of negative recruiting would have to be less successful now (due to Mason's breakout) than it was in the recent past. For example, remember how Jahlil Okafor reacted to the Duke-bigs-only-set-screens nonsense a month or so ago?

[MCFinARL]

How many recruiting myths does Mason have a chance of killing this year?

1. Big man development (he's clearly made huge strides this year, both in aggressiveness and FT shooting).
2. Use of a big man by K (you don't average 20/10 just knocking people over all game).
... What else?

Does Wojo's credibility go up for all of this? Or did he just get taller over the summer?

At one point last night Jay Bilas specifically praised Wojo for his excellent big man coaching. (On the other hand, in the post game presser, Coach K said Mason's improvement is due entirely to Mason's own hard work--that being said, it would be unseemly for him to take credit on behalf of the coaching staff.)


As you well know, he set several. The difference is he's rolling to the basket with more authority and the guards are looking for him when he does.

Yeah, there is nothing wrong with setting screens--it's a valuable skill at any level. But this year it looks like that is part of an all-around game rather than Mason's primary job.

[Josephd0]

Carlos Boozer made a habitual feast off of that play for a long, long time. No reason to believe Mason cannot do it as well.

Good stuff.

Yeah, I think the main difference is that Boozer played with J-Will and Boozer wasn't the other teams main concern. They were fighting past Boozer to try and prevent Williams from raining down threes on them (remember that Maryland?). I like the comparison though. Boozer's game is much closer to Mason's than probably any of the other bigs that Duke has had.

I will add that if Mason is setting screens for Curry, there's a much closer comparison than if he's setting them for anyone else on this team.

[gus]

As you well know, he set several. The difference is he's rolling to the basket with more authority and the guards are looking for him when he does.

True, but I think OPK was making a facetious reference to the absurd notion that big men at Duke do nothing on offense but set screens.

eta- but you clearly realize that, so nothing to see here.

[Kedsy]

True, but I think OPK was making a facetious reference to the absurd notion that big men at Duke do nothing on offense but set screens.

I know. I was pointing out truly dumb that absurd notion is. All good big men set screens, it's a great way for them to score. The pick and roll has been a staple in the NBA for decades.

(but I know you clearly realize that as well; I think we're all on the same page here.)

[CDu]

I can't say this enough, but I just LOVE how well Mason is playing in all facets of the game on offense. He's composed with the ball (no more of the silly travels and awkward moves). He's showing polish with either hand around the basket, and he's showing the ability to react to what the defender does before committing to a move, while ALSO showing the ability to make a quick decision to attack when needed. He's even showing some touch on the 10-12 foot bank shot. And of course, he's hitting free throws, which means he is a threat to score at any time for 40 minutes (as opposed to last year where you could foul him to prevent points).

What he is doing right now is what college basketball (and being a senior) is all about. He's grown so much as a player. Sure, SOME of his improvement can be attributed to Cook and colleagues getting him more chances. But he's also doing SO much more with those chances. In previous years, he just didn't look like he knew what to do with the ball when he got it. That is clearly no longer the case, and it's so great to see. I'm very happy for him, as I can tell he's really enjoying where he is right now as a player, and he seems to be really enjoying where he is right now as a teammate.

From a selfish perspective, it's great to see for multiple other reasons, too. His improvement is a huge part of what could be a run at a title this year, in what some folks felt could be a rebuilding year. And it also gives Coach K and the staff ammunition to say (a) we can develop big men and (b) big men can be prominent players at Duke. It's been a long time since a center has led Duke in scoring (1999 I believe), but there's a strong possibility that Mason changes that this year.

[Dev11]

Yeah, I think the main difference is that Boozer played with J-Will and Boozer wasn't the other teams main concern. They were fighting past Boozer to try and prevent Williams from raining down threes on them (remember that Maryland?). I like the comparison though. Boozer's game is much closer to Mason's than probably any of the other bigs that Duke has had.

I will add that if Mason is setting screens for Curry, there's a much closer comparison than if he's setting them for anyone else on this team.

That said, Carlos Boozer is still setting those same screens and rolling to the basket, ten years later in the NBA. It's a useful skill.

[COYS]

I can't say this enough, but I just LOVE how well Mason is playing in all facets of the game on offense. He's composed with the ball (no more of the silly travels and awkward moves). He's showing polish with either hand around the basket, and he's showing the ability to react to what the defender does before committing to a move, while ALSO showing the ability to make a quick decision to attack when needed. He's even showing some touch on the 10-12 foot bank shot. And of course, he's hitting free throws, which means he is a threat to score at any time for 40 minutes (as opposed to last year where you could foul him to prevent points).

What he is doing right now is what college basketball (and being a senior) is all about. He's grown so much as a player. Sure, SOME of his improvement can be attributed to Cook and colleagues getting him more chances. But he's also doing SO much more with those chances. In previous years, he just didn't look like he knew what to do with the ball when he got it. That is clearly no longer the case, and it's so great to see. I'm very happy for him, as I can tell he's really enjoying where he is right now as a player, and he seems to be really enjoying where he is right now as a teammate.

From a selfish perspective, it's great to see for multiple other reasons, too. His improvement is a huge part of what could be a run at a title this year, in what some folks felt could be a rebuilding year. And it also gives Coach K and the staff ammunition to say (a) we can develop big men and (b) big men can be prominent players at Duke. It's been a long time since a center has led Duke in scoring (1999 I believe), but there's a strong possibility that Mason changes that this year.

Mason's free throw shooting has made a bigger difference than I ever thought possible. By hitting his free throws, he's dramatically increased his scoring output even if he were otherwise the exact same player as last year. Now, he's decisive and willing to go right at the defense. His free throw rate is currently at an astronomical 79%! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/mason-plumlee) He can also stay on the court for longer stretches because he doesn't have to come out to avoid Hack-a-Mason defense. His true shooting percentage has jumped up to 70% (wow!), a full 14 percentage points better than last season! All those things have combined to turn Mason into an average offensive player (middling true shooting percentage combined with a somewhat high turnover rate) into an absolute beast of an offensive player (slightly lower turnover rate, astronomically higher true shooting percentage) who can create his own shot AND consistently gets the other team in foul trouble. Almost the only shots he doesn't get fouled on are in transition.

It is possible that Mason will get to the line a little less if he continues his torrid FT shooting, as opposing defenses stop thinking his nice touch from the stripe is a fluke. However, considering that Duke has played three top ten defenses and two more top twenty defenses (according to KenPom and going by ranking at the time the game was played) and Mason has done this well, I have to think his recent feats of offensive efficiency are more likely to stick than to go away. If he were to struggle, you'd think it'd be against the schedule we just played. Instead, Mason came out of our ridiculous early season slate of games with a scorching 125.3 offensive rating while averaging 35 minutes per contest. Throw in his dominant defensive rebounding (which, for perspective, has been equal to the Landlord's senior season rebound rate) and you've got quite the elite post player. In fact, Mason's offensive numbers are actually more comparable to Brand's and Boozer's.

We have a long way to go, obviously, but Mason has been special, so far. Here's hoping the team only continues to improve and we can send Mason out with NPOY honors and a second ring.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, I think the main difference is that Boozer played with J-Will and Boozer wasn't the other teams main concern. They were fighting past Boozer to try and prevent Williams from raining down threes on them (remember that Maryland?). I like the comparison though. Boozer's game is much closer to Mason's than probably any of the other bigs that Duke has had.

I will add that if Mason is setting screens for Curry, there's a much closer comparison than if he's setting them for anyone else on this team.

I think with Quinn, Seth and Sheed in the backcourt, he will have that opportunity this year.

And as much as I love Boozer -- truly do -- I'm not sure I ever saw him get up and get one like Mason did last night. Mason is playing with a warrior's edge that will be hard to stop.

Good times.

[mr. synellinden]

Needs to be said:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/21160771/plumlee-leads-the-player-of-the-year-watch

They got #1 right, but how is Deshaun Thomas not on that list?

[Indoor66]

For my two cents, Mason is playing the game, not thinking the game. he is allowing his training and instincts to rule his play during the game. This frees him to exert his physical talents in a positive manner. I like to refer to such mental and physical actions a maturity. He has matured into his skills. Too many in "The League" never do.

[OldSchool]

That said, Carlos Boozer is still setting those same screens and rolling to the basket, ten years later in the NBA. It's a useful skill.

I wish we WOULD use Mason in the pick-and-roll.

If any of our guards could consistently deliver a pocket pass at the right height and speed for Mason, with his athleticism, mobility, passing ability and ability to use a dribble or two if need be, Mason ought to be devastating in the p-n-r.

A lot of Mason's points come the hard way. It doesn't have to be that way.

I wish our guards would watch some footage of Boozer working with one of the guards in a pick and roll either at Utah or Chicago to see how it's done and why it is so darn difficult to defend that play if the guards can get it right.

[johnb]

...that would be an interesting historical question...who has made the most dramatic turn around in a Duke uniform?


this is a dramatic turnaround, though he was no longer in a Duke uniform... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhJhOzRDTM


and this guy has never officially worn a Duke uniform, but he made a pretty dramatic turnaround after three years of struggles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLl35v_8ppg. The real action starts after a minute....

[DukieinSoCal]

I wish we WOULD use Mason in the pick-and-roll.

If any of our guards could consistently deliver a pocket pass at the right height and speed for Mason, with his athleticism, mobility, passing ability and ability to use a dribble or two if need be, Mason ought to be devastating in the p-n-r.

A lot of Mason's points come the hard way. It doesn't have to be that way.

I wish our guards would watch some footage of Boozer working with one of the guards in a pick and roll either at Utah or Chicago to see how it's done and why it is so darn difficult to defend that play if the guards can get it right.

The only problem I see with this strategy is that I'm not sure Mason can consistently hit the 12-18 foot jumper. He still looks uncomfortable facing up and popping the J to me. For the pick and roll to be consistently effective, he would at least have to be a legitimate threat to hit the mid-range J. Or else the defenders could just overplay the guard and protect the basket. If he does become more comfortable shooting jumpers, the pick and roll with Quinn could be an unstoppable play for us.

[OldSchool]

The only problem I see with this strategy is that I'm not sure Mason can consistently hit the 12-18 foot jumper. He still looks uncomfortable facing up and popping the J to me. For the pick and roll to be consistently effective, he would at least have to be a legitimate threat to hit the mid-range J. Or else the defenders could just overplay the guard and protect the basket. If he does become more comfortable shooting jumpers, the pick and roll with Quinn could be an unstoppable play for us.

The guard is required to read the defense at the point he brushes his man off Mason's pick. If Mason's defender decides not to step forward and hedge the dribbler, the guard takes it right to the hole or pulls up for a floater or dump-off in the post in the face of rotation, etc. If Mason's defender hedges, get the ball to Mason.

It's all on the guard. We've got an unusually powerful weapon in Mason. Rivers with his quick step and ability to score at the rim was perfect in theory for this play in combination with Mason, but he didn't develop himself to that level of a passer while he was at Duke.

I'm hoping Quinn and Marshall will start working on this play. If Quinn is going to be an elite point guard, this kind of thing needs to be his bread and butter.

[Newton_14]

The only problem I see with this strategy is that I'm not sure Mason can consistently hit the 12-18 foot jumper. He still looks uncomfortable facing up and popping the J to me. For the pick and roll to be consistently effective, he would at least have to be a legitimate threat to hit the mid-range J. Or else the defenders could just overplay the guard and protect the basket. If he does become more comfortable shooting jumpers, the pick and roll with Quinn could be an unstoppable play for us.

True, but that is coming. It is mental. For 3 years running now, I have watched Mason hit the 12-15 foot jumper consistently in warm ups, over and over again. The difference is he puts no pressure on himself, and his stroke flows very nicely. During game action, he does not trust it, the stroke is not as smooth, and results are bad. This year his stroke in the game is looking closer to how it looks during warm ups. He is not quite there yet, but if he can get there, he can definitely stroke that shot. I thought the two jumpers he took last night were good looks, and very close to the smooth and fluid warm up stroke. Just a touch of tightness, and enough to make him miss. The bank shot off glass was his best of the year though. Much better than the off glass shot in the Kentucky game that he made. If he ever overcomes that one flaw, you simply will not stop him.

My open question to the board though, is Are There Any Doubters Left?? If so, explain yourselves. Gone is the horrid FT shooting. Gone are the long strided, slow post moves, the weak, shrinking, slumping pump fakes, and more importantly, gone are the attempts to "Shoot the ball from 2-4 feet" we saw early in his career. Mason has learned how to "Score The Basketball" in the paint, by simply putting the ball in the basket by any means necessary. It is a beautiful coming out party and I could not be happier for the kid. Mason (and Miles for that matter) has taken a lot of heat and blame over the last 4 years (much of it undeserved) and yet never complained (even though they had every right too). One lasting moment that I will never forget was listening to Mason in the post game presser on that long ride home from the Lehigh game last year. After going 7 for 7 in an embarrassing loss where he should have taken 20 shots, he was asked if his teammates failed to get him the ball enough. His response: "No, that's on me. I did not work hard enough to get open, and I did not demand the ball enough. That's not on my teammates or the coaches, that's on me" That folks is character at its finest.

We have one of, if not the best center in the college game this year. Mason Plumlee has arrived.

[53n206]

Maybe the best college center---surely the best man.

[-jk]

In fairness, his free throw form is still horrid, even if they're dropping. He has absolutely no margin of error and the rims will not forgive him that shot. Contrast to Seth's shot, which is high and soft and much more likely to "rattle, rattle, whoosh!" as my household says.

That said, I do love his assertiveness, and Quinn's ability to get him the ball in scoring position. Mason showed flashes of this with Kyrie, but he hadn't been ready for a more deliberate offense, and the team hadn't been more capable of the more up and down, aggressive and athletic game he favors.

It's certainly been fun to watch! And following that sort of player development is what's unique about college hoops.

-jk

[Rich]

For my two cents, Mason is playing the game, not thinking the game. he is allowing his training and instincts to rule his play during the game.

I think it's because he's finally breathing through his eyelids.

[Newton_14]

In fairness, his free throw form is still horrid, even if they're dropping. He has absolutely no margin of error and the rims will not forgive him that shot. Contrast to Seth's shot, which is high and soft and much more likely to "rattle, rattle, whoosh!" as my household says.

That said, I do love his assertiveness, and Quinn's ability to get him the ball in scoring position. Mason showed flashes of this with Kyrie, but he hadn't been ready for a more deliberate offense, and the team hadn't been more capable of the more up and down, aggressive and athletic game he favors.

It's certainly been fun to watch! And following that sort of player development is what's unique about college hoops.

-jk
Agree somewhat -jk.... but.... Unlike last year, he has actually made several this year that did bounce around softly and then dropped. Even during the improvement down the stretch last year, it was always all or nothing. If it hit the rim it did not stay down. The shot is still flat, but somehow he has found a way to make it just soft enough to give it a chance if it hits the front rim. He is still toast if it hits the back rim, no argument there. Even with the form, the one thing he does right is gets good rotation which does help when it hits the top of the front rim.

Either way, the make percentage is still remarkable. I found myself down the stretch last night, wanting OSU to foul Mason, which is crazy I guess, but hey, he is making them.

[Duke of Nashville]

His form is still terrible but they are going in. Has anyone else noticed that Mason appears to be talking to himself while at the line? Haven't noticed if he is saying the same thing over and over. When the camera is showing his face I've noticed he is always talking to himself or his team right before he takes the ball to shoot. Don't remember him doing that last year but I generally had my eyes closed when he was at the line...

[rhymeswithdreidel]

In fact that would be an interesting historical question...who has made the most dramatic turn around in a Duke uniform?

You young guys won't remember him, but I have to go with Erik Meek. His senior year (1994-95) he was close to averaging a double-double (points / rebounds). This was a guy who was supposed to be great when he came to Duke, but took a while to make it. I believe he was in an auto accident or something the summer before he came to Duke.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=256

He went from 2.6/2.6/3.5 ppg his first three years to 10.5 ppg his senior year. And 1.3/2.9/4.2 rpg his first three years to 8.3 rpg his senior year.

Anyway. He was my favorite player on that ill-fated team.

[Kedsy]

You young guys won't remember him, but I have to go with Erik Meek. His senior year (1994-95) he was close to averaging a double-double (points / rebounds). This was a guy who was supposed to be great when he came to Duke, but took a while to make it. I believe he was in an auto accident or something the summer before he came to Duke.

Eric Meek did have an outstanding senior season, but if you're going to go that far back, then Alaa Abdelnaby has to be the standard bearer for late improvement.

[Jim3k]

And as much as I love Boozer -- truly do -- I'm not sure I ever saw him get up and get one like Mason did last night. Mason is playing with a warrior's edge that will be hard to stop.

Good times.

Yeah! That was right out of the Grant Hill playbook.

[rhymeswithdreidel]

Eric Meek did have an outstanding senior season, but if you're going to go that far back, then Alaa Abdelnaby has to be the standard bearer for late improvement.

No doubt that Alaa had a great senior year (15.1 ppg / 6.6 rpg), but his junior year was not so bad, either. He was averaging 8.9 ppg / 3.8 rpg. Abdelnaby was able to propel that senior season to a 1st round NBA draft pick (#25); Meek was only picked in the second round (#41 overall).

Good argument either way, but I'd say Meek went from being a no-one his junior year to playing a significant role his senior year. Abdelnaby was already a significant member of the team by his junior year (tied for 4th in scoring average on the team, started 19/33 games). Meek's junior year consisted of 5 starts (in 34 gp) and he was 7th in scoring average on the team. Abdelnaby did more with his time on the floor his junior year (8.9 ppg in 16.1 mpg) than did Meek, too (3.5 ppg in 13.9 mpg).

[superdave]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/68603/jason-kings-wooden-watch-3

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My father and I have been frustrated with Mason's "overthinking" for years now, as well as his tendency to put the ball on the floor instead of getting the pass and going up strong. Clearly, he's playing much smoother ball this year.

In my conversation with my dad recapping the OSU game (yes, we do this) we mentioned that ridiculous throw down on the Cook pass and said that last year he would have gone sky high for the pass, brought it down, dribbled twice, pump faked, and then gone off the glass.

Partly kidding, but seriously, that kid has made a sea change in his confidence and his aggressiveness. Changes everything.

Oh, and the free throws too, of course.

[gumbomoop]

Bump, using Wheat to get at a Mason-issue. Or non-issue. Depending.


I'll try to respond to any question I see for me...

I got one. More than once I have cited Wheat's useful observation re Mason in his first 3 seasons, namely, that when crowded, Mason's play became "bulky." I think Mason's previously befuddled play was related to mediocre footwork; but no matter [maybe], the question is, has Mason pretty much eliminated the "bulky" play? Is his play now pretty consistently fluid?

Mostly, to be sure, Mason's play impresses, a lot, and a whole lot of EK posters, including me, if in my case with a nagging reservation. Some examples will provide context for this question to Wheat, which is really more in the way of a minor, even uncertain, dissent to the near-universal praise for Mason.


This year he has a much more diverse attack-the-basket game from 15-17 feet, dribbling and finishing with either hand, in diverse... ways.


I just LOVE how well Mason is playing in all facets of the game on offense. He's composed with the ball (no more of the silly travels and awkward moves). He's showing polish with either hand around the basket, and he's showing the ability to react to what the defender does before committing to a move, while ALSO showing the ability to make a quick decision to attack when needed.

What he is doing right now is what college basketball (and being a senior) is all about. He's grown so much as a player.... In previous years, he just didn't look like he knew what to do with the ball when he got it. That is clearly no longer the case, and it's so great to see.


For my two cents, Mason is playing the game, not thinking the game. he is allowing his training and instincts to rule his play during the game. This frees him to exert his physical talents in a positive manner. I like to refer to such mental and physical actions as maturity. He has matured into his skills.

Such well-reasoned examples, among many others in this thread, led Newton_14 to issue a friendly enough challenge:


My open question to the board ... is Are There Any Doubters Left?? If so, explain yourselves..... Gone are the long strided, slow post moves, the weak, shrinking, slumping pump fakes....

Well, here's maybe a partial dissent:


Certainly the growth in Mason's game this year has been outstanding but his offense from a purely back to the basket is still a bit limited....

For all Mason's wonderful improvement, I think he still stumbles a bit when crowded, or when the play is frantic, or something. Not often, just every so often; but often enough to be noticeable. Granted - and this is important - one of Mason's signal strengths is his vision and passing, so sometimes he punishes attempts to crowd him simply by passing to an open man, often a 3-bomber, but sometimes to a cutter, too. Excellent.

So, over to you, Wheat, and, by extension, to anyone interested. Fluid? Polished? Maturity? Bulky all gone? Stumbles so rare as to be just not very important?

[Kedsy]

For all Mason's wonderful improvement, I think he still stumbles a bit when crowded, or when the play is frantic, or something. Not often, just every so often; but often enough to be noticeable.

I don't know if it's when he's crowded, necessarily, but I did notice in the Temple game that Mason wasn't nearly as smooth when he got bumped. The Temple big men were very physical with him both when he was trying to catch the ball and as he was just starting his move, and in that game at least it seemed to throw him off significantly.

[gumbomoop]

I don't know if it's when he's crowded, necessarily, but I did notice in the Temple game that Mason wasn't nearly as smooth when he got bumped. The Temple big men were very physical with him both when he was trying to catch the ball and as he was just starting his move, and in that game at least it seemed to throw him off significantly.

We've had this particular mini-discussion in another thread, and I need to make clear I agree with your description, which is pretty close to, and probably a more precise description of, what I mean by "crowded." I especially like and want to praise your precision re the timing of opponents' bumptiousness. At the very least, opponents [possibly opponents'] bumping him and generally being physical with him have occasionally caused him problems. I would still say that even when play isn't obviously physical, when he's double-teamed or just when there's another opposing body in the area, Mason doesn't do as well.

I'm not trying to be picky [and I may be failing.....], and I absolutely agree with the many posters who have remarked on and described specifics of Mason's improvement. I'm not sure there will be many "fair" tests of my concern that this is still a weakness in Mason's game, because the somewhat unexpected proliferation of Duke's 3-bombers probably means opposing coaches who would like to fashion a D to stop this POY candidate simply can't afford to do so -- too many weapons, including, I repeat, Mason's passing ability.

Among the many things to watch as we get into some tough conference games, I'll be paying attention to how Mason is defended, whether he's double-teamed, how opponents try to dislodge him, how he responds, with his feet, feints, passes, instincts.

I really do like Indoor66's summary, tag-quoted above. I agree with it, mostly, and want to agree with it totally.

[bedeviled]

Well, gumbomoop, it seems like you are searching for a reason for your feeling of reservation. I’ll see if I can help. ;)
Perhaps it’s because I just came over from the “clutch” thread, but I agree with many of the positive comments…In my words, to me Mason appears to be thinking about the goal of “what” he wants to do rather than the “how” of doing it, which removes some hurdles for him (I still don’t think he’s instinctual; I suspect he’s still thinking a lot about the endgame of his moves). But, I wonder if this is because the “how” has been taken out of his hands by passes getting to him in the right places.

Looking at Mason’s stats compared to the same time last year, the significant changes are in point production. In essence, his data-only (FWIW) improvements are in taking more shots and hitting freethrows (and our team’s inside presence is pretty akin to 2011-12). He has improved FT% with more FT but not more FTA. His FT improvement speaks for itself, and he deserves all the credit.

He also has more FG and FGA, but not better FG%. With more points but the same FG%, maybe the difference this year is in what it took to set up his shot, rather than the actual taking of it.
1. Perhaps he is, indeed, smoother from the point of collection to the position he wants to shoot from.
2. Alternatively, perhaps the interior feeds are such that the “how” of his play is already set up by the passer, and Mason can just focus on completing the play instead of bumbling through getting the ball where he needs to. Indeed, improvement in assists is one of the few significant differences from 2011. Maybe it looks smoother because all he has to do is sign his name to the contract written by Quinn & Co.
3. Or, maybe he is better at doing the work ahead of the ball. He might be establishing better position so that he, himself, has answered the “how” before the ball even comes his way. Maybe this is also why our assists are better.
IDK. It’s likely a combination of the 3 plus more! In addition to looking at his response to the defense, you may want to keep an eye out for the ball in reference to his collecting and shooting positions.

*I agree with y’all, Maladroit Plumlee was present in the Temple game, which was our worst FG% at the rim (layups, tip-ins, dunks) all season…vive la 3P! lol.

[mapei]

Apology if this has been posted already, but yesterday in a radio interview Mason attributed the improvement to (1) the team playing more inside-out this year and (2) Quinn's passing.

[NSDukeFan]

Apology if this has been posted already, but yesterday in a radio interview Mason attributed the improvement to (1) the team playing more inside-out this year and (2) Quinn's passing.

Yes, but. Mason has established better position (as bedeviled mentioned above and has attacked the basket with confidence from wherever he has had the ball. I believe Mason was being humble and trying to give credit to his teammate and coaching staff, when he has taken major steps in his own play.

[cptnflash]

Part of the improvement in Mason's counting stats (the "per game" stuff) is a simple function of his increased minutes, which in turn is facilitated by his reduced foul rate. I feel like this is one of the most under-appreciated (or at least under-discussed) aspects of Mason's growth as a player. During the course of his four years at Duke, he has clearly learned how to play effectively on offense and defense without fouling, and as a result he can stay on the floor much longer. Season by season, his fouls called per 40 minutes have gone like this:

09/10 = 6.1
10/11 = 4.0
11/12 = 3.6
12/13 = 2.8

Which has allowed his % of total minutes played to go like this:

09/10 = 30.0%
10/11 = 64.1%
11/12 = 70.4%
12/13 = 81.1%

[tommy]

I hate to even bring it up, but I'm kinda concerned about Mason's free throws. Don't get me wrong. Mason has been fabulous this year, clearly one of the top players in the country. And his free throw shooting is much improved overall over his first three years.

In this season's first seven games, through Ohio State, Mason hit 45 of 57 free throws, which is 79%. As great as it was to see the ball going through the hoop at that rate, I still had a sinking feeling that it wasn't going to last, because of the still-awkward shooting motion and the flatness of the shot. But if they went in, OK.

But over the last four games, Mason is hitting free throws at only a 53% clip, making 17 of 32. The shot is still awkward, and it's still flat, so in all honesty I'm not surprised that fewer are going in. I kinda feel like it was inevitable.

The key thing for me is Mason's confidence at the line. If he can remain confident, even if he misses a few in a row, he'll be OK. But if he gets into a negative mindset, starts thinking about free throw shooting woes of the past, etc., the I fear he'll continue his reversion to his prior performance.

[bedeviled]

Part of the improvement in Mason's counting stats (the "per game" stuff) is a simple function of his increased minutes...Quite right. When I compare his performace to last year at this point, he is completing an equivalent number of plays per minute. The plays, though, are more likely to be shots this year.

Here's a stat in case anyone needs to whet their appetite before we start playing again:
The percentage of Mason's field goals that were assisted last year (at this time) was 37.5%. This year.....70.6%.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My two cents...
I haven't seen Mason play much so far, but the couple of times I did it seemed like he was doing what I have always said I think he needs to do...catch the ball with one foot inside the lane/charge circle. When he catches it that low and is aggressive, he's about unstoppable. He's gonna score or get fouled. His confidence looked good, and he was aggressive, a benefit of being a senior. He's just way to athletic and strong for the majority of the defenders he faces.
He should sprint to the basket every time and establish his post position, and his teammates need to look for a quick entry pass. If its not there, he can move right into that high screen and roll game no problem, but I'd look for him down low every time.
I think when he decided to come back, and i said it when he announced, that coach K gave him assurances that he would work him down low more. I have no inside knowledge of that, of course, but that's what I believe because doing that makes him a dominant player and potential NPOY, which was a good reason to come back.
As I get to watch Duke more now that the ACC season is getting going, I'll be watching to see where he gets the ball.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I got one. More than once I have cited Wheat's useful observation re Mason in his first 3 seasons, namely, that when crowded, Mason's play became "bulky."

So, over to you, Wheat, and, by extension, to anyone interested. Fluid? Polished? Maturity? Bulky all gone? Stumbles so rare as to be just not very important?

I don't think Mason will ever be looked at as "fluid".

His is more of an explosive/power game.

His maturity has to have helped. He can avoid situations that make him uncomfortable because he can see them coming from past experience.

[jv001]

I hate to even bring it up, but I'm kinda concerned about Mason's free throws. Don't get me wrong. Mason has been fabulous this year, clearly one of the top players in the country. And his free throw shooting is much improved overall over his first three years.

In this season's first seven games, through Ohio State, Mason hit 45 of 57 free throws, which is 79%. As great as it was to see the ball going through the hoop at that rate, I still had a sinking feeling that it wasn't going to last, because of the still-awkward shooting motion and the flatness of the shot. But if they went in, OK.

But over the last four games, Mason is hitting free throws at only a 53% clip, making 17 of 32. The shot is still awkward, and it's still flat, so in all honesty I'm not surprised that fewer are going in. I kinda feel like it was inevitable.

The key thing for me is Mason's confidence at the line. If he can remain confident, even if he misses a few in a row, he'll be OK. But if he gets into a negative mindset, starts thinking about free throw shooting woes of the past, etc., the I fear he'll continue his reversion to his prior performance.

Today Mason shot the first couple of shots like he was shot putting the ball. He improved as the game went on, but as you say, the shot was still flat. It seems he should be able to work on getting more arc on the shot. GoDuke!

[Duke76]

We've had this particular mini-discussion in another thread, and I need to make clear I agree with your description, which is pretty close to, and probably a more precise description of, what I mean by "crowded." I especially like and want to praise your precision re the timing of opponents' bumptiousness. At the very least, opponents [possibly opponents'] bumping him and generally being physical with him have occasionally caused him problems. I would still say that even when play isn't obviously physical, when he's double-teamed or just when there's another opposing body in the area, Mason doesn't do as well.

I'm not trying to be picky [and I may be failing.....], and I absolutely agree with the many posters who have remarked on and described specifics of Mason's improvement. I'm not sure there will be many "fair" tests of my concern that this is still a weakness in Mason's game, because the somewhat unexpected proliferation of Duke's 3-bombers probably means opposing coaches who would like to fashion a D to stop this POY candidate simply can't afford to do so -- too many weapons, including, I repeat, Mason's passing ability.

Among the many things to watch as we get into some tough conference games, I'll be paying attention to how Mason is defended, whether he's double-teamed, how opponents try to dislodge him, how he responds, with his feet, feints, passes, instincts.

I really do like Indoor66's summary, tag-quoted above. I agree with it, mostly, and want to agree with it totally.

really this applies to all big men or anyone playing down low....the most significant ways to improve is to strengthen your lower body....you see it every game....defensive players are taught to attack right below your butt both at the beginning of an offensive player's moves and on rebounding...if they can take away your thigh position you are moved out of position very easily...they were doing it yesterday to Mason...i think he is stronger throughout his body and that is why weight work has become so important over the years

second his balance is a lot better which is of importance for his offensive moves as well and third you got to pass out of the double teams quickly....I think he has improved on all 3 counts this year...thus his greatly enhanced stats...he needs to keep improving to be effective at the next level...all imo

[mr. synellinden]

For what it's worth, NBAdraft.net now predicts Mason to be drafted 13th (http://www.nbadraft.net/2013mock_draft) - a lottery pick. At the end of the last season, he was projected to be around the fringe of the first round - he was in the 25-30 range.

Obviously this can go up or down based on his play the rest of the season, but it is an indication of what a smart move he made by coming back for his senior season.

Also, there continues to be strong evidence of Duke's ability to develop big men. Brian Zoubek went from injury-plagued bench warmer to getting an NBA tryout. Lance Thomas is in the league. Miles got drafted in the first round. Mason is probably going to be a lottery pick. Not to mention, Boozer, McRoberts and Shelden, all of whom have had lengthy careers making millions. If you are tall and want to play in the NBA, come to Duke.

[ice-9]

For what it's worth, NBAdraft.net now predicts Mason to be drafted 13th (http://www.nbadraft.net/2013mock_draft) - a lottery pick. At the end of the last season, he was projected to be around the fringe of the first round - he was in the 25-30 range.

Obviously this can go up or down based on his play the rest of the season, but it is an indication of what a smart move he made by coming back for his senior season.

Also, there continues to be strong evidence of Duke's ability to develop big men. Brian Zoubek went from injury-plagued bench warmer to getting an NBA tryout. Lance Thomas is in the league. Miles got drafted in the first round. Mason is probably going to be a lottery pick. Not to mention, Boozer, McRoberts and Shelden, all of whom have had lengthy careers making millions. If you are tall and want to play in the NBA, come to Duke.


DraftExpress has Mason going 11th. I like DraftExpress better. :P

[dukeofcalabash]

Apology if this has been posted already, but yesterday in a radio interview Mason attributed the improvement to (1) the team playing more inside-out this year and (2) Quinn's passing.

I agree with Mason and would vote Quinn MVP of the team thus far!

[tele]

really this applies to all big men or anyone playing down low....the most significant ways to improve is to strengthen your lower body....you see it every game....defensive players are taught to attack right below your butt both at the beginning of an offensive player's moves and on rebounding...if they can take away your thigh position you are moved out of position very easily...they were doing it yesterday to Mason...i think he is stronger throughout his body and that is why weight work has become so important over the years

second his balance is a lot better which is of importance for his offensive moves as well and third you got to pass out of the double teams quickly....I think he has improved on all 3 counts this year...thus his greatly enhanced stats...he needs to keep improving to be effective at the next level...all imo

To me, he still needs to learn how to play with leverage. This is most apparent when he is matched up against players as big or bigger than he is. Good post players use leverage, an advantage of length, to gain advantage over their defender. He'll either pick it up on his own from opposing players or another big will teach him. It does look like balance, but when someone uses it against you, it is really from length and strength. It just looks easy.

[Jarhead]

really this applies to all big men or anyone playing down low....the most significant ways to improve is to strengthen your lower body....you see it every game....defensive players are taught to attack right below your butt both at the beginning of an offensive player's moves and on rebounding...if they can take away your thigh position you are moved out of position very easily...they were doing it yesterday to Mason...i think he is stronger throughout his body and that is why weight work has become so important over the years

second his balance is a lot better which is of importance for his offensive moves as well and third you got to pass out of the double teams quickly....I think he has improved on all 3 counts this year...thus his greatly enhanced stats...he needs to keep improving to be effective at the next level...all imo


To me, he still needs to learn how to play with leverage. This is most apparent when he is matched up against players as big or bigger than he is. Good post players use leverage, an advantage of length, to gain advantage over their defender. He'll either pick it up on his own from opposing players or another big will teach him. It does look like balance, but when someone uses it against you, it is really from length and strength. It just looks easy.
Sorry, tele, but your leverage idea goes right over my head. I don't get it. As Duke76 describes, his moves inside, even when defended by someone longer and stronger, look pretty good to me, balanced and accurate. Correct me if I am wrong, but the leverage you describe would no doubt end up as offensive fouls. You can't push someone out of the way. Now if you are talking defense, leverage results in additional strength allowing him to stand his ground. That's okay by me.

[DukeFanSince1990]

The title of this thread makes us all sound like stalkers.........

[TexHawk]

Kenpom (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_2013_kenpom.com_poy_race) chimes in with his first kPOY list.

Mason in front, just ahead of Russ Smith. Then a big gap to Zeller. Two KU players in the Top 10.

[juise]

Even after a couple challenging outings, Mason is regarded as a favorite for the Wooden Award according to an ESPN straw poll (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/72187/plumlee-tops-espn-coms-poy-straw-poll).

[MIKESJ73]

Someone in the South voted for JMM as the 3rd best player in the country....

[Kedsy]

Someone in the South voted for JMM as the 3rd best player in the country....

Where does his mom live?

[DukieInBrasil]

Someone in the South voted for JMM as the 3rd best player in the country....

is he even the 3rd best player on his team?

[johnb]

is he even the 3rd best player on his team?

I know you were referring to McAdoo, and I realize that Mason is within striking distance of winning some NPOY awards, and I know that he gets a lot of the other team's focus, but over the past week or two, I'd say MP was the 3rd best player on our team. Having said that, I quickly add that I'd be completely geared if he wins at least one of them--at least partly because it would probably mean we'd not lose more than a couple of games the rest of the pre-NCAA tournament year, plus it's always good to earn another banner or two...

[gep]

I know you were referring to McAdoo, and I realize that Mason is within striking distance of winning some NPOY awards, and I know that he gets a lot of the other team's focus, but over the past week or two, I'd say MP was the 3rd best player on our team. Having said that, I quickly add that I'd be completely geared if he wins at least one of them--at least partly because it would probably mean we'd not lose more than a couple of games the rest of the pre-NCAA tournament year, plus it's always good to earn another banner or two...

What about this thought... Mason's the 3rd best player on this team over the past few weeks since he *is* the best player on this team over the past few weeks. That is, he commands so much attention from the opposing defense that he's "limited", and the other guys get to "go off"... thereby appearing to be "better". :confused:

[moonpie23]

Where does his mom live?

upstairs....it's her house...

[David]

Shane Ryan (Grantland) on Mason Plumlee:


One more thing: Mason Plumlee is widely considered one of the top five candidates for Player of the Year, and I guess I'm on board. He's been great at rebounding and passing and getting to the line and even making his foul shots (though those numbers are starting to fade). But if he actually contends, he'll be one of the least polished offensive post players ever to be considered for such a major award. After four years, Plumlee has improved in many areas, but he still doesn't have an ounce of grace or fluidity when he gets the ball in the post. I was watching him in the first half against Clemson on Tuesday, and was astounded by how little he's progressed. It's a small sample, but I've made a video of every first-half possession where Duke got the ball in the post and Plumlee tried to score. Duke fans always get mad at me for criticizing him, so again I emphasize that he's been excellent in other facets of the game. But based on watching him maneuver with his back to the basket, I'm afraid he's reducing himself to a guy who can finish alley-oops, or pass out of the post. But he's certainly not someone you need to double.

Link to the video here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47300/the-hardcourt-shuffle-top-10-college-hoops-weekend-games

[mr. synellinden]

Shane Ryan (Grantland) on Mason Plumlee:



Link to the video here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47300/the-hardcourt-shuffle-top-10-college-hoops-weekend-games

Mason was bad against Clemson. He looked like pre-2012 Mason in the post. He's looked like that for three games now. His foul shooting has regressed. Yes, I'm concerned.

I'm the one who started this thread, and I can say objectively, Mason has not played well offensively the last three games. I hope he and the coaches can get it turned around. Tomorrow would be a good time to start.

[Wander]

Shane Ryan (Grantland) on Mason Plumlee:



Link to the video here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47300/the-hardcourt-shuffle-top-10-college-hoops-weekend-games

Cherrypicking a guy's worst half in 30 halves of basketball is not a particularly intelligent way to evaluate a college player's season.

[CDu]

Cherrypicking a guy's worst half in 30 halves of basketball is not a particularly intelligent way to evaluate a college player's season.

To be fair, he had a similar performance against Davidson, too. The Mason we saw over the first 12 games of the season? MUCH better than he was last year. The Mason we've seen the past 3 games? Accurately described by Ryan.

And to be honest, the essence of his statements (lack of polish, lack of fluidity and grace) are accurate, even when considering his season as a whole. He was finishing better earlier in the season, but it still wasn't very fluid or graceful. Better than previous years, yes. Fluid and graceful? Not so much.

[David]

Cherrypicking a guy's worst half in 30 halves of basketball is not a particularly intelligent way to evaluate a college player's season.

I agree - the video is based on a small and biased sample. However, Mason's play over the last 3 games has been below the high standard he set over the first part of the season. Are these last 3 games an abberation, regression to the mean, teams beginning to pay him more attention (doubles teams...), or something else? I think mr. s said it well:


I hope he and the coaches can get it turned around. Tomorrow would be a good time to start.

[Duvall]

Shane Ryan (Grantland) on Mason Plumlee:
Link to the video here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47300/the-hardcourt-shuffle-top-10-college-hoops-weekend-games

It really is a shame that Grantland, despite having the resources of the Walt Disney Company at its disposal, could not find a college basketball writer capable of producing better work than Shane Ryan's overwrought and underthought nonsense.

[mr. synellinden]

To be fair, he had a similar performance against Davidson, too. The Mason we saw over the first 12 games of the season? MUCH better than he was last year. The Mason we've seen the past 3 games? Accurately described by Ryan.

And to be honest, the essence of his statements (lack of polish, lack of fluidity and grace) are accurate, even when considering his season as a whole. He was finishing better earlier in the season, but it still wasn't very fluid or graceful. Better than previous years, yes. Fluid and graceful? Not so much.

Two things I've noticed about Mason:

1. He is not very good when he works toward the lane. He is much better when he works towards the baseline or along the baseline. I just think he is not real comfortable with his back to the basket and he hasn't perfected the drop step very well. His best move would be to work toward the lane and then reverse back with a drop step. He is tall and strong enough to do this, he just doesn't have the muscle memory of the footwork down. This is why he tends to fade away from the basket or try that awkward half hook/throw the ball over his shoulder move. He can't seem to figure out how to get his body square when he starts with his back to basket on the block.

2. He doesn't get a lot of easy putbacks. I cannot figure out why, but he doesn't seem to be in position for a lot of offensive rebounds. I don't know what his offensive rebounding numbers are like (I'd be curious how they compare to Zoubek's from 2010, for example). But even when he does get a rebound, he doesn't seem to be in good position for an easy layup.

Also, I wonder if his poor foul shooting and (lack of) aggressiveness near the basket (i.e., fading away) are related.

[sagegrouse]

Mason was bad against Clemson. He looked like pre-2012 Mason in the post. He's looked like that for three games now. His foul shooting has regressed. Yes, I'm concerned.

I'm the one who started this thread, and I can say objectively, Mason has not played well offensively the last three games. I hope he and the coaches can get it turned around. Tomorrow would be a good time to start.

Beginning with Santa Clara, every opponent has singled Mason out for "extra attention." Mason's numbers have been down but it doesn't automatically mean he is not playing well. OTOH Kelly has been able to run wild [sigh].

sagegrouse

[mr. synellinden]

Beginning with Santa Clara, every opponent has singled Mason out for "extra attention." Mason's numbers have been down but it doesn't automatically mean he is not playing well. OTOH Kelly has been able to run wild [sigh].

sagegrouse

Objectively, Mason has not played as well the last three games as the previous 12. It's not a matter of numbers - but the numbers do support what I have observed. He himself even said he hasn't played well. Yes, he has been double teamed at timed - but look closely at the Clemson video. Do you see one double team? It's as if they knew they didn't need to double him and knew exactly what move he'd make in each instance. Booker owned him defensively.

[Des Esseintes]

It really is a shame that Grantland, despite having the resources of the Walt Disney Company at its disposal, could not find a college basketball writer capable of producing better work than Shane Ryan's overwrought and underthought nonsense.

I just hate that guy. Overwrought is exactly the right word and gets at what drives me most crazy about him. He adopts this pose of almost world-weary knowledgeability and yet all he's ever doing is riding the same couple of narrative hobbyhorses, none of which hold up under scrutiny.

[Newton_14]

Shane Ryan (Grantland) on Mason Plumlee:



Link to the video here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47300/the-hardcourt-shuffle-top-10-college-hoops-weekend-games

As usual the hack Ryan (who rode some sort of miracle to popularity that only God himself can explain) cherry picks one of Mason's poorest scoring games to decide that Mason has not progressed and has no post moves. So just throw out the first 12 games where he dominated in the post, showing a variety of solid post moves, against the best the country has to offer which is why teams have started doubling him to begin with. Unreal. Mason has struggled a bit the last 2-3 games, but to totally throw out all of the great things he has done so far this year is short-sighted and biased.

The next time Ryan makes an intelligent point about the game of basketball will be the first. It made my day when he could not get a press pass for the Duke/UNC game last year. Hope that is a permanent ban.

[JNort]

"Typical duke team living and dying by the 3 when will they learn championship teams have a good point guard and a dominant big man"

"plumlee is not dominant he cannot take a game over"

That is what I saw this morning by a "friend"... ugh stats don't even work with him, I tried.

[Kedsy]

"Typical duke team living and dying by the 3 when will they learn championship teams have a good point guard and a dominant big man"

I'd tell your friend we learned it from the NCAA champions in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2011, all of whom lacked either a great point guard (at least in the "classic" sense that he seems to be referring), a dominant big man, or both.

[JNort]

I'd tell your friend we learned it from the NCAA champions in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2011, all of whom lacked either a great point guard (at least in the "classic" sense that he seems to be referring), a dominant big man, or both.

Well in short I said Cook is a finalist for the Cousy award (Best Pg) and Mason is a NPOTY front runner.

[Saratoga2]

I'd tell your friend we learned it from the NCAA champions in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2011, all of whom lacked either a great point guard (at least in the "classic" sense that he seems to be referring), a dominant big man, or both.

What the friend seems ti be saying is that Mason is not a dominant big man. Nothing wrong with holding that opinion. Mason is very good but has an offensive game that involves dunks and little hooks around the basket. I agree he is not dominant but there are few really dominant college players at any position, so it can't be looked on as a knock on Mason.

[Jderf]

What the friend seems ti be saying is that Mason is not a dominant big man. Nothing wrong with holding that opinion. Mason is very good but has an offensive game that involves dunks and little hooks around the basket. I agree he is not dominant but there are few really dominant college players at any position, so it can't be looked on as a knock on Mason.

That was my first thought exactly. If Mason is not a dominant big man, then who is? I agree that it isn't necessarily nonsensical to argue that Mason isn't dominant, but by saying that you are essentially arguing that there isn't a single dominant big man in the NCAA this year. Good ones, sure (Zeller, Withey, Mason). But dominant? Nope.

My point is, once you take that position, it makes absolutely no sense to argue that you can't win a NCAA championship without a dominant big man, because by necessity someone out there is going to do it this year, by the logic of your own argument.

[JNort]

What the friend seems ti be saying is that Mason is not a dominant big man. Nothing wrong with holding that opinion. Mason is very good but has an offensive game that involves dunks and little hooks around the basket. I agree he is not dominant but there are few really dominant college players at any position, so it can't be looked on as a knock on Mason.


That was my first thought exactly. If Mason is not a dominant big man, then who is? I agree that it isn't necessarily nonsensical to argue that Mason isn't dominant, but by saying that you are essentially arguing that there isn't a single dominant big man in the NCAA this year. Good ones, sure (Zeller, Withey, Mason). But dominant? Nope.

My point is, once you take that position, it makes absolutely no sense to argue that you can't win a NCAA championship without a dominant big man, because by necessity someone out there is going to do it this year, by the logic of your own argument.

Yeah that was his primary thing cause he shut up about Cook and 3's. But if you are one of the top at your position then that makes you dominant. Similar thought would be about Dwight Howard in the NBA, he is considered by most to be the most dominant Center in the NBA but if he played in the 80's, 90's or early 00's he would not fare as well. Does not change that he is still dominant. NCAA this year there are only a few you can make a case for Zeller, Withey, Mason and to a lesser degree Noel.

[ChillinDuke]

Have we discussed how many Dukies have gone 1000 / 1000 (pts / rebs) in their career? (I didn't look through all previous pages.)

I'm sure there are some, but it's impressive nonetheless. And Mason is 7 games or so away from joining this club.

- Chillin

[sagegrouse]

Have we discussed how many Dukies have gone 1000 / 1000 (pts / rebs) in their career? (I didn't look through all previous pages.)

I'm sure there are some, but it's impressive nonetheless. And Mason is 7 games or so away from joining this club.

- Chillin

There are only 7 with 1,000 rebounds, and all have 1,000 points: Shelden, Gminski, Laettner, Randy Denton, Mike Lewis, Singler and Ferry. Randy and Mike played only three years and averaged >12 RPG. Mason is on path to join the club.

Here's where the list gets exclusive: 2,000 points AND 1,000 rebounds: Laettner, Shelden, Ferry and ... wait for it... Kyle Singler.

Hmmm...

sagegrouse

[Kedsy]

There are only 7 with 1,000 rebounds, and all have 1,000 points: Shelden, Gminski, Laettner, Randy Denton, Mike Lewis, Singler and Ferry. Randy and Mike played only three years and averaged >12 RPG. Mason is on path to join the club.

Here's where the list gets exclusive: 2,000 points AND 1,000 rebounds: Laettner, Shelden, Ferry and ... wait for it... Kyle Singler.

Hmmm...

sagegrouse

Gminski had 2323 points and 1242 rebounds, so add him to your exclusive list.

[sagegrouse]

Gminski had 2323 points and 1242 rebounds, so add him to your exclusive list.

Yep. Sorry. I had the list but misread my notes: G-man, Ferry, Laettner, and Singler. Pretty exclusive. It appears Shelden is 72 points short of 2,000.

sage

[mr. synellinden]

There are only 7 with 1,000 rebounds, and all have 1,000 points: Shelden, Gminski, Laettner, Randy Denton, Mike Lewis, Singler and Ferry. Randy and Mike played only three years and averaged >12 RPG. Mason is on path to join the club.

Here's where the list gets exclusive: 2,000 points AND 1,000 rebounds: Laettner, Shelden, Ferry and ... wait for it... Kyle Singler.

Hmmm...

sagegrouse

Nobody should have worn #12 after him.

[Saratoga2]

Yeah that was his primary thing cause he shut up about Cook and 3's. But if you are one of the top at your position then that makes you dominant. Similar thought would be about Dwight Howard in the NBA, he is considered by most to be the most dominant Center in the NBA but if he played in the 80's, 90's or early 00's he would not fare as well. Does not change that he is still dominant. NCAA this year there are only a few you can make a case for Zeller, Withey, Mason and to a lesser degree Noel.

They have a good one in Louisville as well

[cptnflash]

Nobody should have worn #12 after him.

I totally agree with this. Especially not so soon. Every time I see Alex Murphy running around on the court, I wish he was Kyle.

[Durham Thunder]

Mason cannot let Kelly's absence bring him down. He started 2-12 against Georgia Tech, who have post players nobody's heard of. I know K threw his arms around him in the second half when thing's looked better, but for a guy who was 7-8 against Kentucky on the big stage, 2-12 against an 0-4 ACC team is unacceptable.