Why is Alex Murphy getting almost non-existent playing time?

[ricks68]

For a good part of last Summer, I believe we were hearing that Alex Murphy could be the second-coming of Kyle Singler in a sightly larger body. Am I incorrect about that?

What happened? Any input from Watzone or Jim Sumner, or anyone else possibly in-the-know, would be greatly appreciated. Please.

If the mods feel that the information, or discussing the topic, is inappropriate for the boards, please PM me and remove this thread.
Thanks.

ricks

[Sixthman]

Defense, Defense, Defense. Position, intensity, communication, and toughness. There is no reason he cannot be playing serious minutes before the season is over. He played thirty seconds in the first half of the Kentucky game and gave up a layup in the half-court defense in which we might as well have had four players on the court instead of five. Imagine -- and we can only imagine this -- that everyday before practice, in practice, and after practice, the coaches are preaching the importance of defense to Alex. When something like the Kentucky game happens this would, naturally, be a set back in the eyes of the coaches, even though as a fan I would say "he barely had a chance". He needs to make the most of his chances, and it seems like he has not. Anyone can see he has great talent and he must be a great kid or he wouldn't be a part of the pragram. He'll get it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Here's what K himself has to say about Murphy.

Krzyzewski was asked after the game what Murphy had to do to increase his playing time.
"There are 200 minutes in a game,” Krzyzewski said. “If someone is playing worse than you ahead of you, then you should get some of those minutes. But if people are playing better than you, those minutes are eaten up. He’s just a freshman. We have confidence that he is going to be a good player.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/11/22/2501106/the-arena-in-the-bahamas-is-a.html#storylink=cpy

[Saratoga2]

There are two more extremely tough games in which neither Jeffereson or Murphy are likely to get a lot of playing time, unless we get into foul trouble. The subsequent stretch of games should allow coach K to experiment with other lineups and give both of these guys more time. That said, we still have Marshall to get into the lineup and I would expect he too will become available after the Ohio St game, although I expecthis PT ro be limited at he gets into playing condition.

[mcdukie]

Well at least we can stop the talk of him being the next Singler. If he could help us K would play him.

[rocketeli]

Well at least we can stop the talk of him being the next Singler. If he could help us K would play him.

Exactly. If he plays better in games and practice than someone else he will get more minutes, if not, he won't. Isn't it funny how every year some player is annointed the official "What's wrong with so-and-so," or even worse "what's wrong with Coach K" guy because they don't play very much. Last year it was Gbinige (sp?). Somehow other players never get the love, like Hairston. It seems to qualify you have to be an athletic slashing wing with problems with basketball IQ and defense, who throws down monster dunks--in the blue-white scrimmage. I propose we have an annual award called "The Golden Calves" in honor of Marty Pocius and the apparently now-saintly Rick Majerus, that we award to the player who exemplifies this role and creates the most message board angst.

[CarmenWallaceWade]

I may be wrong, but I've heard Murphy is a solid scorer. That alone doesn't necessarily get you on the court at Duke. You have to have the fundamentals down on defense and consistently show that in practice before being granted significant court time.

I think we will eventually need someone off the bench (other than Curry, if he doesn't start) who can provide us an offensive spark. Having your all of your starters be able to score is great but when the fouls start piling up it becomes a problem. Maybe Murphy will develop into this role as the coaching staff develops confidence in other aspects of his game.

[OldPhiKap]

"Looking for love in all the wrong places ...."

[Wander]

Isn't it funny how every year some player is annointed the official "What's wrong with so-and-so," or even worse "what's wrong with Coach K" guy because they don't play very much. Last year it was Gbinige (sp?).

I don't know. This doesn't feel like it's in the same category as Gbinije or Pocius to me. At least for me, it's not a complaint in any way, especially given how good we've been so far, it's just more a "Hm, this is a little bit odd" thing, given his high recruiting ranking and year to prepare at Duke. It's based more in curiosity than in angst.

[Newton_14]

I don't know. This doesn't feel like it's in the same category as Gbinije or Pocius to me. At least for me, it's not a complaint in any way, especially given how good we've been so far, it's just more a "Hm, this is a little bit odd" thing, given his high recruiting ranking and year to prepare at Duke. It's based more in curiosity than in angst.

I feel the same way. Very odd. Two years in a row he practices well enough to start in exhibition games, plays tentatively, then disappears totally in the very first real game with a DNP-CD. I thought for sure he would be a starter this year, or at the least firmly in the rotation. It is just a weird situation. Reading between the lines on K's comments thus far, it seems the talent is there, but Murphy has not figured out how to use that talent in games yet. It is different than the situations with past players.

[davekay1971]

I try to not have angst on these issues, mainly because I assume K knows something more about practice performance and player development than I do. I assume that Murphy is riding pine because the coaching staff feel he's not playing better than Sulaimon and Jefferson, who are getting most of the time at the 3. I am concerned, however, because we could really use a little more depth. Right now we feel pretty thin on the perimeter, particularly with Seth's leg. If Seth can't go, we're down to Thornton, Cook, and Sulaimon on the perimeter. That's enough to get by at the 1 and 2, but then we'll absolutely need Murphy to perform, and perform well, at the 3. Whatever's going on with Murphy, we need him to get it together and be ready to contribute to this team.

[lotusland]

I'm sure there is a combination of reasons but the most important factor is probably the fact that Sheed is playing so well and we need him in the game. As much angst as we have collectively had about another 3 guard lineup, it's pretty hard to argue against Seth, QC and Sheed's minutes thus far. If/when Seth can't go I wonder who'll get the minutes.

Looking at next year's lineup I think Alex's PT in the near future may be at 4 and 5 anyway.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I try to not have angst on these issues, mainly because I assume K knows something more about practice performance and player development than I do. I assume that Murphy is riding pine because the coaching staff feel he's not playing better than Sulaimon and Jefferson, who are getting most of the time at the 3. I am concerned, however, because we could really use a little more depth. Right now we feel pretty thin on the perimeter, particularly with Seth's leg. If Seth can't go, we're down to Thornton, Cook, and Sulaimon on the perimeter. That's enough to get by at the 1 and 2, but then we'll absolutely need Murphy to perform, and perform well, at the 3. Whatever's going on with Murphy, we need him to get it together and be ready to contribute to this team.


I think we were going to be thin on the perimeter Murphy or no Murphy. The kid may have been a scorer but I dont know who in their right mind would have him play on the perimeter alongside Cook/Thornton. As soon as Dawkins/Coach K made the unilateral decision to redshirt him this season, we were thin. Still not sure if I agree with the thinking behind it, but it is what it is.

[freshmanjs]

I think we were going to be thin on the perimeter Murphy or no Murphy. The kid may have been a scorer but I dont know who in their right mind would have him play on the perimeter alongside Cook/Thornton. As soon as Dawkins/Coach K made the unilateral decision to redshirt him this season, we were thin. Still not sure if I agree with the thinking behind it, but it is what it is.

unilateral? should they have taken a poll on dbr?

[lotusland]

unilateral? should they have taken a poll on dbr?

Yes and another poll for who should be the big man coach and when to use stall ball.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

unilateral? should they have taken a poll on dbr?

Yes, I think it would have been the appropriate thing to do :)

No, but I'm just saying we went from being a deep team to an injury away from being in trouble because I don't think Murphy was ever an option to play in the perimeter.

[mr. synellinden]

It's 5 games into his freshman season. We have played some very good teams so far. It is a big transition for a freshman - not all freshmen are a Sulaimon or a Singler.

Remember Elliot Williams? Sometimes it takes a while for things to click. Let's be patient and trust that Coach K knows when his players are ready to play meaningful minutes. He's proven that for 30 years.

[OldPhiKap]

It's 5 games into his freshman season. We have played some very good teams so far. It is a big transition for a freshman - not all freshmen are a Sulaimon or a Singler.

Remember Elliot Williams? Sometimes it takes a while for things to click. Let's be patient and trust that Coach K knows when his players are ready to play meaningful minutes. He's proven that for 30 years.

Very logical post. Which is to say, it does not belong on an Internet fan site.

{Panic. Immediate gratification. Know better from my couch.}

[DukeVu]

It's 5 games into his freshman season. We have played some very good teams so far. It is a big transition for a freshman - not all freshmen are a Sulaimon or a Singler.

Let's see, who coaches Duke's Big Men -- Hmmm, could that be Wojo who has had him for almost two years now?

[CDu]

It's 5 games into his freshman season. We have played some very good teams so far. It is a big transition for a freshman - not all freshmen are a Sulaimon or a Singler.

Remember Elliot Williams? Sometimes it takes a while for things to click. Let's be patient and trust that Coach K knows when his players are ready to play meaningful minutes. He's proven that for 30 years.

He's only sort of a freshman though. Sure, he's a freshman in terms of eligibility. But in terms of experience he is more than that. He's had a season's worth of practice and several exhibition games over two years. So it's not like he's this fresh out of high school kid.

The reality is that, with Cook, Curry, and Sulaimon on the perimeter and Plumlee and Kelly in the frontcourt, there are a limited number of minutes to be had. Basically, there are about 20 frontcourt minutes and 30-35 perimeter minutes to be had.

Murphy is competing with a scrappy junior who is very good at team defense and has earned the trust of Coach K (Thornton) on the perimeter. He's (in theory) more talented, but he hasn't shown that talent yet. But unless he really steps up or one (or both) of Jefferson and Thornton falter, he's just not going to get minutes, because there just aren't minutes available.

This is the reality of the way Coach K does things. He likes a 7-8 man rotation, where he plays his best 7-8 guys, and his best 5-6 get the vast majority of those minutes. We've had 1,000+ point scoring seniors get relegated to mop-up minutes under Coach K. If Murphy starts getting real minutes, that means somebody else is going to be relegated to less than 5 minutes per game, because the main guys are still going to get 30+ minutes per game.

[ChillinDuke]

I think we will have a lot more clarity on this situation when Seth sits out or is limited in a game.

With that in mind, here's to hoping we get little clarity on this situation this year.

- Chillin

PS - And that's no drag on Murphy at all.

[Kedsy]

(other than Curry, if he doesn't start)

Where'd this come from? Watching Seth play on one leg, it appears clear the only way he doesn't start is if his injury prevents him from playing at all.


Let's see, who coaches Duke's Big Men -- Hmmm, could that be Wojo who has had him for almost two years now?

Are you serious? If not, ignore the rest of this post, but it sounds like you are, so... First of all, Alex has been playing and reportedly practicing on the perimeter, so to the extent Wojo's coaching our big men, he isn't coaching Alex. Second, can you possibly watch the way Mason and Ryan have been dismantling our opponents and criticize our big man coaching? Get real.

[MCFinARL]

He's only sort of a freshman though. Sure, he's a freshman in terms of eligibility. But in terms of experience he is more than that. He's had a season's worth of practice and several exhibition games over two years. So it's not like he's this fresh out of high school kid.

The reality is that, with Cook, Curry, and Sulaimon on the perimeter and Plumlee and Kelly in the frontcourt, there are a limited number of minutes to be had. Basically, there are about 20 frontcourt minutes and 30-35 perimeter minutes to be had.

Murphy is competing with a scrappy junior who is very good at team defense and has earned the trust of Coach K (Thornton) on the perimeter. He's (in theory) more talented, but he hasn't shown that talent yet. But unless he really steps up or one (or both) of Jefferson and Thornton falter, he's just not going to get minutes, because there just aren't minutes available.

This is the reality of the way Coach K does things. He likes a 7-8 man rotation, where he plays his best 7-8 guys, and his best 5-6 get the vast majority of those minutes. We've had 1,000+ point scoring seniors get relegated to mop-up minutes under Coach K. If Murphy starts getting real minutes, that means somebody else is going to be relegated to less than 5 minutes per game, because the main guys are still going to get 30+ minutes per game.

This sounds right. It might make sense, however, to be playing a few more guys in a tournament where you are playing three tough teams in three days, and I fear Duke may pay for the short rotation tonight against Louisville (but we will see). On the other hand, if the way people earn more minutes is by performance in practice, it's clear that not much is going to change during a three-day tournament, so Alex's chance to crack the lineup would have to wait.

[CDu]

I think we will have a lot more clarity on this situation when Seth sits out or is limited in a game.

With that in mind, here's to hoping we get little clarity on this situation this year.

- Chillin

PS - And that's no drag on Murphy at all.

I'd say "if" Curry ists out or is limited in a game. Hasn't happened yet, and if he gets through today's game then he isn't going to play another stretch this tough until the ACC tourney.

[sagegrouse]

Hi, guys. I'm off the train. I know K knows best, but I am utterly bewildered by the short rotation last night, a day after a tough game against a physical Minnesota team. Six players played all but eight minutes -- and one of them is lame.

Now there is a third game in a row. I'd have to say we are not in a good position. Maybe the shooting will be better, but unless the Curry injury is a lot of jive, I think we are under a severe handicap. And the sauna-like temperatures will not be good for an already tired team.

sagegrouse

[ChillinDuke]

I'd say "if" Curry ists out or is limited in a game. Hasn't happened yet, and if he gets through today's game then he isn't going to play another stretch this tough until the ACC tourney.

I absolutely 100% hope you're right. Unfortunately, I am sticking with "when". It just sounds to me like this will pose a problem at some point.

- Chillin

[uh_no]

Hi, guys. I'm off the train. I know K knows best, but I am utterly bewildered by the short rotation last night, a day after a tough game against a physical Minnesota team. Six players played all but eight minutes -- and one of them is lame.

Now there is a third game in a row. I'd have to say we are not in a good position. Maybe the shooting will be better, but unless the Curry injury a lot of jive, I think we are under a severe handicap. And the sauna-like temperatures will not be good for an already tired team.

sagegrouse

Best learn to play the big minutes now so when we have to in the ACC tournament we're prepared.

[Listen to Quants]

Best learn to play the big minutes now so when we have to in the ACC tournament we're prepared.

Eggs-Act-Lee. Coach K has aimed at The tournament(s) for decades now. Regular season games are played to win, no doubt. But they are arranged to maximize post-season win-probabilities (big domes, neutral sites, pre-season tourneys etc.).

[tele]

He's only sort of a freshman though. Sure, he's a freshman in terms of eligibility. But in terms of experience he is more than that. He's had a season's worth of practice and several exhibition games over two years. So it's not like he's this fresh out of high school kid.

The reality is that, with Cook, Curry, and Sulaimon on the perimeter and Plumlee and Kelly in the frontcourt, there are a limited number of minutes to be had. Basically, there are about 20 frontcourt minutes and 30-35 perimeter minutes to be had.

Murphy is competing with a scrappy junior who is very good at team defense and has earned the trust of Coach K (Thornton) on the perimeter. He's (in theory) more talented, but he hasn't shown that talent yet. But unless he really steps up or one (or both) of Jefferson and Thornton falter, he's just not going to get minutes, because there just aren't minutes available.

This is the reality of the way Coach K does things. He likes a 7-8 man rotation, where he plays his best 7-8 guys, and his best 5-6 get the vast majority of those minutes. We've had 1,000+ point scoring seniors get relegated to mop-up minutes under Coach K. If Murphy starts getting real minutes, that means somebody else is going to be relegated to less than 5 minutes per game, because the main guys are still going to get 30+ minutes per game.

You may be right, but it is a long season and things can and will change, including starters and minutes. Since the immediate objective is to win each game in this tough stretch of the schedule that may require doing things in a way you might not choose to do later on. For instance if Curry can't go, or other teams take advantage of mismatches at the 3 (Sulaimon has been doing great so far/kentucky came closest) things could change sooner rather than later, or Duke could lose. But I agree that Coach K will continue to ride his best horses which so far have been his three seniiors and a very talented freshman. He might also shorten his bench for tough games and use a number of different starting lineups over the course of the season as a way to develop his bench players by giving them starts and starters minutes. Unless Murphy violated some team rule or is ill, he'll probably start again at some point.

[wk2109]

I think we were going to be thin on the perimeter Murphy or no Murphy. The kid may have been a scorer but I dont know who in their right mind would have him play on the perimeter alongside Cook/Thornton. As soon as Dawkins/Coach K made the unilateral decision to redshirt him this season, we were thin. Still not sure if I agree with the thinking behind it, but it is what it is.

All of Alex's minutes have been at the 3 (except for a few at the 2 in an exhibition game), so he's been used strictly as a perimeter player. I'm not going to rewatch the exhibition games but I'm 99.9% sure that he played some of his minutes alongside Cook and Thornton.

When you say "Still not sure if I agree with the thinking behind it, but it is what it is" are you referring to Andre's decision to redshirt to deal with his sister's death? If you are, how could you possibly claim to know anything about "the thinking behind it" or, for that matter, anything about it? And even if you did know anything about the decision, why would it matter, even the tiniest bit, whether you agree with the thinking behind it?

And re: Alex, when people mention that he started the Blue/White game and the two exhibition games, I think they're forgetting that Alex was starting because Seth was out. I first thought Rasheed, not Alex, was Seth's replacement, but from the way K mentioned Rasheed as a definite starter with Seth, Ryan, and Mason, I now believe that Alex wouldn't have started if Seth were healthy in the preseason.

[FerryFor50]

Elliot Williams didn't play much at the start of his freshman year either. Some things take time. Some take opportunity. Foul trouble, slumps or injuries would get Murphy on the court, but so would learning the commitment to defense needed to play as a freshman at Duke.

Another thing to keep in mind is how atrocious he was at the FT line in pre-season games and international play. Probably not a huge factor, but definitely doesn't help. And definitely keeps you out of late game rotations.

[Kedsy]

Elliot Williams didn't play much at the start of his freshman year either.

This myth grows over time. Elliot Williams averaged 14 mpg his first 12 games at Duke, including three games where he played 20+ minutes.

Alex has played 8 or 9 minutes, total, in 5 games. There is no comparison.

[FerryFor50]

This myth grows over time. Elliot Williams averaged 14 mpg his first 12 games at Duke, including three games where he played 20+ minutes.

Alex has played 8 or 9 minutes, total, in 5 games. There is no comparison.

I think there is a comparison, regardless of the scale.

Elliot played more when K felt he was ready and out of necessity. The same could happen for Alex, but it will take some effort out of him and some extenuating circumstances for that to happen.

[Kedsy]

I think there is a comparison, regardless of the scale.

Elliot played more when K felt he was ready and out of necessity. The same could happen for Alex, but it will take some effort out of him and some extenuating circumstances for that to happen.

The scale is the story, don't you think? Elliot Williams was solidly in the rotation for pretty much the entire non-conference schedule before being relegated to garbage time minutes at the beginning of the ACC season, but managed to earn a starting nod by the end of the ACC season. It's a nice story, but seems to me to have little in common with a guy who plays essentially no minutes for the first five games (so far and probably at least first seven and who knows after that).

I suppose anything can happen, but to me at least the Elliot Williams saga is not particularly good precedent for Alex fans to hang their hats on.

[FerryFor50]

The scale is the story, don't you think? Elliot Williams was solidly in the rotation for pretty much the entire non-conference schedule before being relegated to garbage time minutes at the beginning of the ACC season, but managed to earn a starting nod by the end of the ACC season. It's a nice story, but seems to me to have little in common with a guy who plays essentially no minutes for the first five games (so far and probably at least first seven and who knows after that).

I suppose anything can happen, but to me at least the Elliot Williams saga is not particularly good precedent for Alex fans to hang their hats on.

I think Elliot's scenario was a bit different. He was a guard on a team that needed guards, especially guards that could defend.

Alex is a 3 on a team with several guys who can play the 3 and likely hasn't shown enough defense in practice to sniff the floor yet.

Like I said, it will likely take an injury or a slump for him to get in, but I think it's possible. K seems to still be high on him.

[Indoor66]

This sounds right. It might make sense, however, to be playing a few more guys in a tournament where you are playing three tough teams in three days, and I fear Duke may pay for the short rotation tonight against Louisville (but we will see). On the other hand, if the way people earn more minutes is by performance in practice, it's clear that not much is going to change during a three-day tournament, so Alex's chance to crack the lineup would have to wait.

Ya think they will be tired tonight?

[MCFinARL]

Ya think they will be tired tonight?

Um, yes.
But, of course, though Duke had a tougher game, Louisville had a later game, so they may also be a little tired.

[Mcluhan]

Here's what happens to us every year:

Recruit X is a high school stud, and the handy comparison is great Duke player Y.

Being major Duke fans, we take an active interest in every player on the roster, and want as many as possible to play an active role on the team.

In the offseason it's not uncommon for me and others to be assessing high school reps, summer league games, etc. and concluding excitedly 'We could go 10 deep this year!"

However: Our coach almost NEVER plays a deep bench. Ever. He does not believe in 'in game experience' as a goal in and of itself, and he prefers for his starters to play almost all available minutes. He's more like a soccer coach than he is someone like Rick Pitino, who has at times thrown waves of players at opponents.

Every offseason we forget this.

However we never forget that recruit X has been compared to great Duke player Y.

And so we wonder how on earth Coach K could be leaving this player on the bench.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

[CarmenWallaceWade]

Where'd this come from? Watching Seth play on one leg, it appears clear the only way he doesn't start is if his injury prevents him from playing at all.

This is the context I was referring to. I expect him to start every game unless he's not healthy.

[Kedsy]

This is the context I was referring to. I expect him to start every game unless he's not healthy.

Oh, OK. But in that case, he wouldn't be providing scoring off the bench would he? He'd be wearing a boot.

[wallyman]

This is a very old debate. Only one man gets to vote. And he knows more about coaching basketball that any of us.
But, fwiw, I think his short bench theory is wrong and it continues to bite us. Take out 2010 and Duke has regularly underachieved in recent years in the
one tourney that really matters. Last year we lost one of our core guys, Ryan Kelly, and our season was over -- in truly embarrasing fashion, as it turned out. Over a long season the odds are much better that you'll lose one or two key players for extended periods than you won't. Maybe we didnt have another Ryan Kelly sitting around last year and maybe the counter argument comes down to Silent G or not red-shirting Murphy, and that's a slim reed. And maybe Murphy isn't there yet and maybe he will be as the season goes on. But if I'm a stud player I'd rather be at a school where I get a chance to play than one where I don't. And if I'm planning for the year, I'm not going to assume that the 6 or 7 guys I trust the most will all be there and healthy when I most need them. K's smarter than I am and given a choice, I'm pretty sure I'd vote for him over me as Duke's coach. But I think the downsides of the short bench outweigh the advantages.

[Kedsy]

This is a very old debate. Only one man gets to vote. And he knows more about coaching basketball that any of us.
But, fwiw, I think his short bench theory is wrong and it continues to bite us. Take out 2010 and Duke has regularly underachieved in recent years in the
one tourney that really matters. Last year we lost one of our core guys, Ryan Kelly, and our season was over -- in truly embarrasing fashion, as it turned out. Over a long season the odds are much better that you'll lose one or two key players for extended periods than you won't. Maybe we didnt have another Ryan Kelly sitting around last year and maybe the counter argument comes down to Silent G or not red-shirting Murphy, and that's a slim reed. And maybe Murphy isn't there yet and maybe he will be as the season goes on. But if I'm a stud player I'd rather be at a school where I get a chance to play than one where I don't. And if I'm planning for the year, I'm not going to assume that the 6 or 7 guys I trust the most will all be there and healthy when I most need them. K's smarter than I am and given a choice, I'm pretty sure I'd vote for him over me as Duke's coach. But I think the downsides of the short bench outweigh the advantages.

Your argument hinges entirely on the idea that a player who hasn't played regular minutes early in the season will be incapable of playing regular minutes later in the season. I haven't seen any proof of this, and while Elliot Williams in 2009 and Casey Sanders in 2001 both played a lot more early in the season than Alex is playing now, I would argue those data points suggest the idea that a benchwarmer can't come off the bench in an emergency and contribute isn't true. Another not-quite-on-point example would be in the NBA, where it's actually quite common for end-of-the-bench guys to be inserted into the rotation after an injury, perform quite nicely, and then be relegated to the end of the bench again when the injured starter returns.

You also make the implicit assumption that our "underachieving" in the NCAAT in "recent years" is due to not having our deep rotation players ready to play. Perhaps that was true in 2012, when Ryan got hurt (although I don't think so -- Ryan wasn't particularly replaceable by anybody we had on our roster), but I didn't see that dynamic on any of our other early exit teams.

Ultimately, even if a lot of people seem to think that a deep bench is advantageous, I haven't seen any reasonable proof that it is, or conversely that the "downsides of the short bench" are really disadvantageous. So while personally I'd like to see more players in our regular rotation, it's really hard to successfully argue against Coach K's philosophy.

[oldnavy]

Ya think they will be tired tonight?

I know this is after the fact, but I believe people overthink the physical impact of playing three games in three days or the 2 games in NCAA tourny weekends. These kids are in top shape and I can assure everyone that during the summer they play three or four games a day if not more.

Now perhaps they don't play with the same intensity in the pick up games, but I doubt that fatigue will be a problem, with the exception of an injury like Seth's, that is a whole other discussion.

[BD80]

Hi, guys. I'm off the train. I know K knows best, but I am utterly bewildered by the short rotation last night, a day after a tough game against a physical Minnesota team. Six players played all but eight minutes -- and one of them is lame.

Now there is a third game in a row. I'd have to say we are not in a good position. Maybe the shooting will be better, but unless the Curry injury is a lot of jive, I think we are under a severe handicap. And the sauna-like temperatures will not be good for an already tired team.

sagegrouse

Care to revise your opinion? Except for the "K knows best"


This myth grows over time. Elliot Williams averaged 14 mpg his first 12 games at Duke, including three games where he played 20+ minutes.

Alex has played 8 or 9 minutes, total, in 5 games. There is no comparison.

Those 12 games were the pre-conference schedule. We only played 2 ranked teams (both top 10, not top 5) and our average margin of victory over the 11 wins was greater than 25 points. There were plenty of opportunities to throw Elliot in to get his feet wet. This season so far has been different in strength of schedule with respect to providing minutes to dedicate to Alex when Coach K already has a freshman and a sophmore to prepare for starter's minutes and responsibilities and still walk away with wins.

Elliot's "emergence" later in the season is still an example of what could happen with Alex.


... Take out 2010 and Duke has regularly underachieved in recent years in the
one tourney that really matters. ...

Take out a National Championship from ANY coach or team, and it'll leave a mark. Wait you CAN"T take away a Natty from most coaches and teams.

MOST TEAMS AND COACHES DON'T HAVE EVEN ONE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!

perspective

[davekay1971]

But, fwiw, I think his short bench theory is wrong and it continues to bite us. Take out 2010 and Duke has regularly underachieved in recent years in the
one tourney that really matters.

I'll leave alone the "take out 2010" part and respond only to the attempt to connect a short bench to tournament losses.

A short bench is much more likely to cause problems in an ACC tournament format with games in consecutive days, for obvious reasons. Yet Duke has owned the ACC tournament. Fatigue simply isn't a factor in the NCAA Tournament, with it's format of game, day off, game, 5 days off. A short bench can be a factor in the case of foul problems or injury. But the only year I can blame an NCAAT loss on foul problems was 2004 when Shelden fouled out...in the final four. Last year Kelly's injury hurt us, but losing a starter at a critical juncture can always hurt a team, and Kelly's injury was only one reason we fell to Lehigh. I'm not sure how our other early tournament losses, let's say from 2005 through last year, can be blamed on a short bench.

Of course, I'd have a hard time calling our NCAAT performance from in recent years to "underperforming" unless you either expect a final four regularly or til Duke should always perform to the seed the NCAA selection committee gives us.

[DukieInBrasil]

Of course, I'd have a hard time calling our NCAAT performance from in recent years to "underperforming" unless you either expect a final four regularly or til Duke should always perform to the seed the NCAA selection committee gives us.

since 2001, Duke has gotten past the Sweet 16 only once, when we became NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!! We went out in the first round twice, although in 2007 we didn't have a particularly good seed (6), but still "underperformed" our seed. The following year we needed a miraculous performance by Gerald to avoid losing in the opening round again, but lost in the next round anyway. In fact, we have not had a 1 or 2 seed only twice in that span (3 in '03, 6 in '07). Getting in the Tourney and making the sweet 16 in 8 of 11 years is pretty awesome for most teams, and we should appreciate that about our beloved Devils. I have to agree though, that losing to lower seeded teams in 10 of 11 years is an underperformance throughout that time. Winning the Natty does a lot to correct that, though!

[freshmanjs]

since 2001, Duke has gotten past the Sweet 16 only once, when we became NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!! We went out in the first round twice, although in 2007 we didn't have a particularly good seed (6), but still "underperformed" our seed. The following year we needed a miraculous performance by Gerald to avoid losing in the opening round again, but lost in the next round anyway. In fact, we have not had a 1 or 2 seed only twice in that span (3 in '03, 6 in '07). Getting in the Tourney and making the sweet 16 in 8 of 11 years is pretty awesome for most teams, and we should appreciate that about our beloved Devils. I have to agree though, that losing to lower seeded teams in 10 of 11 years is an underperformance throughout that time. Winning the Natty does a lot to correct that, though!

First of all, this is just factually wrong. Duke went to the final 4 in 2004.

Second, this is not the way to look at performance or underperformance vs seed. The way to look at it would be to compare how Duke performed as a #1 seed vs how #1 seeds perform as a group.

I have done this in the past 2 ways. 1 is to look at the % of the time a #1 seed makes it to the final4. last time i checked, this was something like 44% and Duke under coach K's total tenure was right around that mark. The other way is to look at average # of wins in the tournament. I haven't done this myself, but I believe we are a bit below expectations for the last several years.

Gotta remember we are dealing with small sample sizes here. There was a stretch when Duke went to 7 final 4 in 9 years and there was another stretch where we lost several sweet 16 games. Overall, the performance has been great.

[Dukeblue91]

Take out 2010 and Duke has regularly underachieved in recent years in the
one tourney that really matters.

Wow I can't believe that you actually think that, we had a incredible successful year last season and did in no way underachieve by any means.
I think that you need to change your perception of what a good season is.
Todays parity in college BB is a whole lot more competitive then it used to be and the best team rarely wins the NCAA tournament.
Yes last years losses at the end where a bummer and the fault of many things but not underachieving.
We had some incredible games last season that we won and the only game we underachieved last year was Ohio State because we fell apart and did not play as hard as we normally did.
Also to be honest the 2010 team was a true overachiever by any standard and not the best team in the country.
2011 was also a incredible winning season and we won some games we should not have.

To me the measuring stick of the season is not wether we win the tourney but how we get there and winning it all is the prize for when everything falls into place which also includes allot of luck.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

since 2001, Duke has gotten past the Sweet 16 only once, when we became NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!! We went out in the first round twice, although in 2007 we didn't have a particularly good seed (6), but still "underperformed" our seed. The following year we needed a miraculous performance by Gerald to avoid losing in the opening round again, but lost in the next round anyway. In fact, we have not had a 1 or 2 seed only twice in that span (3 in '03, 6 in '07). Getting in the Tourney and making the sweet 16 in 8 of 11 years is pretty awesome for most teams, and we should appreciate that about our beloved Devils. I have to agree though, that losing to lower seeded teams in 10 of 11 years is an underperformance throughout that time. Winning the Natty does a lot to correct that, though!


Ahem, yeah you forgot our 2004 Final Four appearance that probably should have turned out to be a National Championship appearance had it not been for the refs that notorious night.

I don't have any stats in front of me but I would think that a school that is consistently getting 1-2 seeds every year are probably "underperforming" in some way. When you play in the ACC, Big 10, Big East, or whatever and you win your conference championship many times as we have, we are going to get no worse than a 2 seed most of the time. Overall however, the difference between a 2 seed and a 4 seed when you get to the Sweet 16 especially two teams who don't or haven't played each other is minimal. You essentially get maybe a fringe top 5 team playing a top 15 team on a neutral court and you add the stakes, its a toss up. I wouldn't say we have been underperforming consistently. Every team we have had is different and they've all had their weaknesses and sometimes those get exploited in certain matchups. 2006 is the best example of that. Going into the tournament I think we were the overall #1 seed, maybe #2 and we ran into a REALLY GOOD, really tough LSU team who looking back on they were stacked with Tyrus Thomas and Glen Davis. We got beat, whatever. I would not however compare that to our 2012 demise though, it's two totally different teams and scenarios.

[CDu]

Murphy did show a positive sign defensively last night. He slid over to provide help defense on a driving player (maybe Siva?). He was credited with a block, but replays showed that it was (I believe) Jefferson who actually made the block. Murphy perhaps would have blocked it as well, though, had his teammate not gotten there first.

But, baby steps. Progress. Though again, he's going to have to either really step it up, or we're going to have to have injury or ineffectiveness from one of our regulars for him to break into the rotation.

[moonpie23]

But, baby steps. Progress. .

totally agree......i had to take back a LOT of crap i said about brian zoubek.....

[Dukeblue91]

Murphy did show a positive sign defensively last night. He slid over to provide help defense on a driving player (maybe Siva?). He was credited with a block, but replays showed that it was (I believe) Jefferson who actually made the block. Murphy perhaps would have blocked it as well, though, had his teammate not gotten there first.

But, baby steps. Progress. Though again, he's going to have to either really step it up, or we're going to have to have injury or ineffectiveness from one of our regulars for him to break into the rotation.

Hopefully after the Ohio State game he and Amile will get some more time to play and get it going to help us out later on.
I do hope that it will click for at least one of the 2.
I'm also reserving judgement on MP3 till I actually see him play, this is something we all keep doing.
We pin some huge hope on a unknown player and then get bend out of shape if it does not happen the way we fantasized i.e. Murphy.
Any other player coming on at this point is a bonus and will be great but it is just that.

[Newton_14]

Murphy did show a positive sign defensively last night. He slid over to provide help defense on a driving player (maybe Siva?). He was credited with a block, but replays showed that it was (I believe) Jefferson who actually made the block. Murphy perhaps would have blocked it as well, though, had his teammate not gotten there first.

But, baby steps. Progress. Though again, he's going to have to either really step it up, or we're going to have to have injury or ineffectiveness from one of our regulars for him to break into the rotation.

Agree, and the coaches and players went out of their way during the ensuing timeout to praise Murphy. Good to see. Maybe the kid just struggles with confidence in himself. Regardless, I am glad he got some burn last night, and did ok. I was watching online and the screen froze briefly during that stretch, so I did not get to see anything after the timeout. When it came back on, Murph was subbing out. How did he look on the other possessions? I assume he played 2 or 3 possessions before coming out?

Thanks

[basket1544]

When it came back on, Murph was subbing out. How did he look on the other possessions? I assume he played 2 or 3 possessions before coming out?

Unfortunately he fouled someone on the very next play and was taken out. His foul was a ticky-tack foul that we've seen many times before by young players.

[ChillinDuke]

Agree, and the coaches and players went out of their way during the ensuing timeout to praise Murphy. Good to see. Maybe the kid just struggles with confidence in himself. Regardless, I am glad he got some burn last night, and did ok. I was watching online and the screen froze briefly during that stretch, so I did not get to see anything after the timeout. When it came back on, Murph was subbing out. How did he look on the other possessions? I assume he played 2 or 3 possessions before coming out?

Thanks

Murph had a nice defensive set with the help-side semi-block. He also missed a 3 and had at least one solid defensive rebound that I can recall. He appeared active and clearly has a body type that is distinctly different from the rest of our team when you see him relative to his teammates on the court.

I certainly want to see more of Murphy and will reserve criticism of his play until I see more. However, I can't fault K's philosophy on bench usage and PT.

- Chillin

PS - And yes, you are right about the praise from the staff. Notably, Coach Capel seemed particularly encouraging, almost loving. Very interesting to me.

[OldPhiKap]

Murph had a nice defensive set with the help-side semi-block. He also missed a 3 and had at least one solid defensive rebound that I can recall. He appeared active and clearly has a body type that is distinctly different from the rest of our team when you see him relative to his teammates on the court.

I certainly want to see more of Murphy and will reserve criticism of his play until I see more. However, I can't fault K's philosophy on bench usage and PT.

- Chillin

Coach Capel was particularly encouraging as they went to the time out.

Murphy's time will come.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Take out a National Championship from ANY coach or team, and it'll leave a mark. Wait you CAN"T take away a Natty from most coaches and teams.

Can we talk to Calipari about that? :)

Folks, yes, perspective is needed here. Are we really carping about bench play after a phenomenal two weeks of Duke play? Again, you can't just create minutes for players. Who would you like to see benched for Alex to "get some run?"

Let's revisit this in a few weeks as we move into conference play. Our boys have made a fantastic early season statement and we should be celebrating their accomplishments right now, not second guessing the winningest coach in NCAA history.

Sometimes this board blows my mind. Were we complaining about bench play after the Butler game in 2010? Or just every single game leading up to it?

Go Duke

[wilko]

We are a little nutty about all this...

I think we are playing some really challenging difficult opponents - and trying to WIN THE GAME means playing the better players. Perhaps some fans would rather seen us blown out so we can get game minutes for guys after the game is decided....

And then perhaps its some Kentucky envy mixed in as well?
If we cant get our Frosh out there to show what they can do as quickly as they can then they might transfer OR its sending a bad message to one and doners that you cant be immediately successful at Duke.

I'll go with the wins... Alex will get his in due time...

[CDu]

Agree, and the coaches and players went out of their way during the ensuing timeout to praise Murphy. Good to see. Maybe the kid just struggles with confidence in himself. Regardless, I am glad he got some burn last night, and did ok. I was watching online and the screen froze briefly during that stretch, so I did not get to see anything after the timeout. When it came back on, Murph was subbing out. How did he look on the other possessions? I assume he played 2 or 3 possessions before coming out?

Thanks

He got an uncontested weakside defensive rebound on another possession, and was otherwise not noteworthy. Took and missed a corner 3 without hesitation. That was about it.

I won't say he looked good or bad in his limited time, just like I won't say he's looked good or bad in any of his brief stints on the court this year. Honestly, he's done nothing to this point to suggest he should be playing more, in my opinion. The idea of him (or his ceiling) would be playing more, but he's never really shown more than an occasional glimpse at that ceiling.

That doesn't mean he won't suddenly break out and show that ability. Just that thus far his lack of playing time seems justified.

[sagegrouse]

Care to revise your opinion? Except for the "K knows best"





BD's question had to do with my harsh opinion on the rotation, or lack thereof, in the first two games of the Atlantis tournament.

I do note that the number of minutes for other than the top six increased to 14 from only eight against VCU (but 22 against Minnesota). I am still uncomprehending. We don't even have the seven-man rotation that many found so frustrating in prior season: only six players are averaging double-digit minutes after six games.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

We are a little nutty about all this...

I think we are playing some really challenging difficult opponents - and trying to WIN THE GAME means playing the better players. Perhaps some fans would rather seen us blown out so we can get game minutes for guys after the game is decided....

And then perhaps its some Kentucky envy mixed in as well?
If we cant get our Frosh out there to show what they can do as quickly as they can then they might transfer OR its sending a bad message to one and doners that you cant be immediately successful at Duke.

I'll go with the wins... Alex will get his in due time...

Perhaps. Although if we land Parker, "due time" may mean his junior year.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

While Alex is not getting much playing time, I do enjoy watching him cheer for the guys on the bench. He seems to be always engaged and excited which is nice. Doesn't seem like he is sulking or anything. His time will come.

[wilko]

I don't get it, so you're saying all highly recruited freshmen are immediately entitled to big time minutes? I don't buy that at all. If someone is not getting playing time, there is a reason for it so if they want to sulk and bail, to hell with them. They can go ahead and transfer. We'll give minutes to the deserving kids. Look at Ryan Kelly. The kid was the #20 rated player in the country and barely played at all in 2010 because he simply wasn't ready physically. Now he is the guy that we couldn't win without late last year.

Nope. I'm saying the exact opposite.
You either read it wrong or I wrote it wrong. In either case I guess I was unclear..

The following statement was my supposition on behalf of those who would lobby for throwing someone unprepared to the wolves.
And then perhaps its some Kentucky envy mixed in as well?
If we cant get our Frosh out there to show what they can do as quickly as they can then they might transfer OR its sending a bad message to one and doners that you cant be immediately successful at Duke.

Personally I dont get all the angst about getting him in the lineup before he is ready.

[Kedsy]

I do note that the number of minutes for other than the top six increased to 14 from only eight against VCU (but 22 against Minnesota). I am still uncomprehending. We don't even have the seven-man rotation that many found so frustrating in prior season: only six players are averaging double-digit minutes after six games.

When I was drafting Phase 0, I didn't say this because I didn't want to be negative, but I was worried we might devolve into a de facto six man rotation. At that time I expected Alex to be one of the six and Tyler to be the 7th guy whose minutes dwindled below 10 as the season went on. Now of course, it looks like Tyler is the 6th man and either Josh or Marshall will be the 7th guy whose minutes may dwindle (because we need a third big for at least a few minutes every game). Unless Alex or Amile make a quantum leap in the next month or so, I just don't see either of them exceeding 10 mpg. Although I guess at this point we'd be happy if they each exceeded 5mpg, wouldn't we?

The good news is unless something drastic happens on the recruiting trail, next year Alex and Amile should get decent run at PF and backup center. But we'll still have Semi and Matt and a third-player-to-be-named-later on whom to spend our collective angst (and maybe more, assuming we have 11 or 12 scholarship players and K doesn't go with more than a 7 or 8 man rotation).

[wilko]

Perhaps. Although if we land Parker, "due time" may mean his junior year.

Thats "IF" and assumes Parker would not take his Mission.... lotta moving parts.

[CDu]

Thats "IF" and assumes Parker would not take his Mission.... lotta moving parts.

Not that many moving parts. But I did say "if" for a reason. Heck, even without Parker, it's tricky, with Hood, Sulaimon, Jefferson, Jones, Ojeleye, Thornton, Hairston, and (possibly) Dawkins in the mix at the 2, 3, and 4 spots.

That said, I'd be pretty surprised to see Parker take his mission next year.

[dukeballboy88]

I aint K and dont claim to be, its hard to argue with 900 + wins. But, even right now, ill take AM over TT any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[gumbomoop]

... to be honest the 2010 team was a true overachiever by any standard and not the best team in the country.

Not the place to debate this, and maybe virtually no one would care to discuss this "ancient" history, but I still think Duke was the best team in Spring 2010. Or at least the "best" team in the very important matter of knowing how to win, and executing that know-how. To wit:


playing the game in a surprisingly, if unobtrusively, smart, effective, efficient way [see kenpom]
maximizing its several obvious, and way-underappreciated because "unathletic," characteristics
namely, 3S scorers, near-perfect role players, including consistent enough minutes, rebounds, and 3-bombs from the bench

The 2010 NC Duke team wasn't "best" in terms of eye-catching athletic talent, but it was the best team at, well, actually playing the game in a way to win against very good, even arguably more "talented," competition. We know the "best" team doesn't always win the NC, just as the "best" 2 teams perhaps rarely meet for the NC.

Duke didn't look like the best team, nor even like a best team, but it played the game pretty close to the best, in the last half of that remarkable season. I assume this is very much a minority viewpoint, but I do not believe Duke overachieved in 2010. It achieved a level of success roughly commensurate with the consistent excellence it displayed from mid-season on.


Thread relevance.....That Alex seems to have lost his confidence, and/or that Alex hasn't been able to understand K's system and principles, is perplexing, especially as K announced him as a possible starter a year ago. We know that Alex redshirted following his injury a year ago, and that he and the staff decided, for some reasons, that a redshirt made sense. What I didn't consider then, and am only beginning to think about now, is that the staff saw that Alex really didn't fully "get" the principles a year ago. They must have figured that a year of acclimation would see him fully prepared to jump into the SF spot at the beginning of this season. But sometime between mid-October and early November, Rasheed must have shown a much, much greater ability to "get"..... most everything.

Which, to be sure, seems to be the case, Rasheed-wise, that is.

[OldPhiKap]

I aint K and dont claim to be, its hard to argue with 900 + wins. But, even right now, ill take AM over TT any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

K consistently says that TT is the toughest kid on the team, and draws the hardest defensive assignments. Given the offense of the other players, it is no surprise that a defensive spark plug is getting the minutes.

If Murphy starts locking folks down on D, he will get plenty of minutes.

[Philadukie]

My gut says that a relatively simple and elegant economic principle explains what's going on here.

Alex is playing the least off the bench because he provides the least marginal benefit to the team. This does NOT mean that he provides the least total offensive and defensive benefits compared to other individual players, but that his marginal benefit, when added to the benefits of what the other teammates on the floor already provide, is the least.

For instance, he may be a much, much better offensive player than Hairston or TT and just a slightly worse defender, but the team doesn't really need his marginal offensive benefits when he's in. With the scorers already on the floor, they need someone with more marginal defensive benefits. That would be TT or Hairston.

Anyway, could be wrong, but that's how I'm looking at it.

[throatybeard]

For a good part of last Summer, I believe we were hearing that Alex Murphy could be the second-coming of Kyle Singler in a sightly larger body. Am I incorrect about that?

Did this have to do with being White with a historically, epically, terrifyingly lamentable haircut?

(Full disclosure--I have only read the OPost--sorry if this joke has been made).

[sagegrouse]

Also to be honest the 2010 team was a true overachiever by any standard and not the best team in the country.


As you recognize, blanket, unsupported statements against Duke players or Duke teams are gonna be challenged.

If Duke wasn't the "best" team, then who was?

Kansas was AP #1 but lost to Northern Iowa in the second round. Northern Iowa? Was Kansas the best team in the country?

Syracuse was a #1 seed and AP #4. It was a Cinderella team, originally picked to be middle of the pack in the Big East. The Orange ended on a sour note, losing to Georgetown in its first Big East tournament game and to Butler in the regional finals.

Kentucky was a #1 seed.... but don't get me started about the John Wall/DeMarcus Cousins team! The team, despite a gaudy record in the soft SEC, was not nearly as good as the Davis/Kidd-Gilchrist team of last year. The Cats lost to a hot-shooting WVa team subsequently dismantled by Duke in the Final Four.

Those were the only teams with fewer losses than Duke.

The 2010 Devils were a "team" in the best sense of the word. K was crowing far and wide in the summer before the season how much he "loved his team." Singler, Smith and Scheyer were a matchless troika, but the team didn't come together until Zoubek started taking over games from his position on the boards. And Lance Thomas was invaluable in being able to guard every player on the court. The Achilles heel was supposed to be the lack of a rotation in the backcourt. We only had Nolan and Jon, with Andre available for spot duty (and two gorgeous threes in the regional finals).

One thing that tarnished the team's rep (ignoring Doug Gottlieb's brainless chant about athleticism) was the poor performance against Georgetown with Obama present in the audience and on TV. Stuff happens. While the 1992 team never lost badly, the 1991 team got totally blitzed by UNC in the ACC finals. The 2001 team lost by double digits to Maryland on senior night -- at Duke!

sagegrouse

[COYS]

As you recognize, blanket, unsupported statements against Duke players or Duke teams are gonna be challenged.

If Duke wasn't the "best" team, then who was?

Kansas was AP #1 but lost to Northern Iowa in the second round. Northern Iowa? Was Kansas the best team in the country?

Syracuse was a #1 seed and AP #4. It was a Cinderella team, originally picked to be middle of the pack in the Big East. The Orange ended on a sour note, losing to Georgetown in its first Big East tournament game and to Butler in the regional finals.

Kentucky was a #1 seed.... but don't get me started about the John Wall/DeMarcus Cousins team! The team, despite a gaudy record in the soft SEC, was not nearly as good as the Davis/Kidd-Gilchrist team of last year. The Cats lost to a hot-shooting WVa team subsequently dismantled by Duke in the Final Four.

Those were the only teams with fewer losses than Duke.

The 2010 Devils were a "team" in the best sense of the word. K was crowing far and wide in the summer before the season how much he "loved his team." Singler, Smith and Scheyer were a matchless troika, but the team didn't come together until Zoubek started taking over games from his position on the boards. And Lance Thomas was invaluable in being able to guard every player on the court. The Achilles heel was supposed to be the lack of a rotation in the backcourt. We only had Nolan and Jon, with Andre available for spot duty (and two gorgeous threes in the regional finals).

One thing that tarnished the team's rep (ignoring Doug Gottlieb's brainless chant about athleticism) was the poor performance against Georgetown with Obama present in the audience and on TV. Stuff happens. While the 1992 team never lost badly, the 1991 team got totally blitzed by UNC in the ACC finals. The 2001 team lost by double digits to Maryland on senior night -- at Duke!

sagegrouse

I think another issue caused people to underestimate 2010 Duke. The very, very slow pace at which Duke played made raw data, like points per game and victory margin, less impressive than it would be if Duke played at the same level of efficiency but at a higher pace. Duke routinely had games that barely reached 60 possessions, thanks to our methodical and ruthlessly effective offense that almost never turned the ball over and extended possessions through proficient offensive rebounding. A 100-85 win for a team sounds a lot bigger and better than a 70-58 win just because one team cracked 100 and won by 15 while the other team scored a mere 70 points and probably needed end of game free throws to win by 12. However, in a low possession game, the 70-58 win shows more dominance on a possession to possession basis than a high possession 100-85 win. The fact that a good offensive game by Duke usually stayed in the 70's 'caused the media and fans to underestimate how effective the 2010 team's offense actually was.

In fact, using per possession stats rather than per game stats, the 2010 was arguably better than the 2009 UNC championship team if you take KenPom's pace adjusted efficiency stats into consideration (there was a larger efficiency margin between points per possession allowed and the points per possession scored for Duke 2010 and UNC 2009, meaning that, relative to each year's competition, Duke was actually more dominant). The 2009 UNC team had one of the more dominant tournaments and was a wall to wall favorite to win it all for many pundits. Duke's 2010 team, in its own unique way, should probably have been viewed as a similarly dominant team, as most championship teams usually are (with 2011 being a BIG exception).

[jcastranio]

I have been reading the arguments (for and against) how we do (or don't) develop our bench. This primarily relates to Amile and Alex this season.

I think that K does it the right way - with a purpose that is clear. His post-game press conference remarks the other night seem to support this purpose.

1. With four minute segments and TV timeouts, the Duke team can play its best players the majority of the time. Whether the opponent is strong or weak, those players need to play and need to continually learn to play better with each other.

2. The Duke defensive scheme is not a simple one for young players to learn (it is not just about "you got him" and "I'll take him.") Just watch Ryan and Mason matching up with quick guards or Quinn and Tyler guarding a big on the post. Any watch how the other players on the court have to be aware of those frequent mismatches and adjust accordingly. I have said before that I think it is more difficult for a 6'7"/6'8" size player to figure it all out in the K system.

3. A player will not just "get" better by being on the court for a certain number of minutes. They get plenty of practice time and they have been playing basketball for half their lives. They get enough "court time." To be successful at this level of college basketball, a player must not only have the physical and mental skills to be successful. They must have the confidence. The game moves so fast. (case in point - Mason is doing an outstanding job. Is he any bigger, stronger, or faster than last year? I put it to you that the difference is in his attitude and confidence primarily).

4. As K said, you play in games when you are as good or better as the players in front of you. To truly benefit from game time experience - Amile and Alex must have the confidence and attitude necessary. They are not quite there yet. They will get there.

5. Tyler and Josh are two quality backups. I feel comfortable with them in the game to spell the starters. They have both had key moments out there this year. Tyler is playing 21 minutes a game and Josh 10. (Remember that this is with four tough quality opponents in seven games). As a freshmen, Tyler played 10 minutes a game (a year where we played without Kyrie most of the season) and Josh played 6. Even Josh's numbers are a bit misleading for that year - he didn't play in every game. Both of them needed to the time to develop and gain that experience and confidence. It didn't come from extended minutes in a game when they were not ready.

6. Even Mason and Ryan - two seniors who are key to our success - they played 14 and 6 minutes a game as freshmen.

7. Amile and Alex will develop and will play key minutes for us this year. Don't rush them. They have the talent. Being successful at this level is not just about the talent. They have the size. It is not just about the size. It is about the confidence. Playing without the confidence in a high stakes game - causing the team to lose points or lose (period) - that won't help. They will lose their teammates' trust.

8. After Ohio State, I think you'll see more of them. They will each have a key breakout game sometime in February. Come tournament time, they will each play a key role in a key game. Still, I see them averaging a solid 6 minutes of time a game before it is all over. They will have that confidence - just won't be able to move past the starters. With no foul trouble, who would you take out?

Coach K is right. Trust in him.

[75Crazie]

I think most people dismiss the 2010 team as being far from the most "athletic" team in the country and one that just happened to get hot and/or get the right breaks at the right time. What these people don't recognize is that Duke was the best team in the country that year -- there is a lot more that goes into "team" than athletic prowess.

[Jderf]

Take out a National Championship from ANY coach or team, and it'll leave a mark. Wait you CAN"T take away a Natty from most coaches and teams.

You might be able to take a couple away from UNC pretty soon.

[Philadukie]

I have been reading the arguments (for and against) how we do (or don't) develop our bench. This primarily relates to Amile and Alex this season.

4. As K said, you play in games when you are as good or better as the players in front of you. To truly benefit from game time experience - Amile and Alex must have the confidence and attitude necessary. They are not quite there yet. They will get there.



Good overall points, and K may have said the above, but I don't think it's necessarily true if the marginal benefit theory holds. Alex may be a better overall player than Hairston and TT when you sum his athletic ability, offensive skills, defensive skills, etc. But the team, based on the other players in the game, is marginally better when TT and Hairston are in compared to when Alex is in based on the specific skills that are needed.

Players don't usually come off the bench in an incremental order of who's better overall (ie. AM > TT > JH > MPIII, etc.). They come off the bench based who provides the highest marginal benefit to the team already on the floor.

[jcastranio]

Good overall points, and K may have said the above, but I don't think it's necessarily true if the marginal benefit theory holds. Alex may be a better overall player than Hairston and TT when you sum his athletic ability, offensive skills, defensive skills, etc. But the team, based on the other players in the game, is marginally better when TT and Hairston are in compared to when Alex is in based on the specific skills that are needed.

Players don't usually come off the bench in an incremental order of who's better overall (ie. AM > TT > JH > MPIII, etc.). They come off the bench based who provides the highest marginal benefit to the team already on the floor.

You said that much better than I did. What do I owe you?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I agree that Coach K needs to play the guys that will help him win right now, and that he is privy to what is happening in practice, which none of us know about. However, not to beat a really dead horse, but I still wonder why Alex did not get in at all in the GA State game. We were up 20 most of the second half, so why not use this as a chance to get a freshman some PT. Our guys are flexible enough that Alex, Amile and Hairston can all be on the court at the same time. As has been mentioned above, one or two injuries could press Alex into action whether he's ready or not, so why not give him a chance to best be prepared for that situation?

[Kedsy]

I agree that Coach K needs to play the guys that will help him win right now, and that he is privy to what is happening in practice, which none of us know about. However, not to beat a really dead horse, but I still wonder why Alex did not get in at all in the GA State game. We were up 20 most of the second half, so why not use this as a chance to get a freshman some PT. Our guys are flexible enough that Alex, Amile and Hairston can all be on the court at the same time. As has been mentioned above, one or two injuries could press Alex into action whether he's ready or not, so why not give him a chance to best be prepared for that situation?

A plausible answer to your question is it was to impart a lesson. Exactly what the lesson was, I have no idea. Based on his continued lack of playing time, perhaps Alex hasn't learned the lesson well enough yet.

As far as being prepared to play, if he's not prepared after practicing every day it's hard to see how a few extra minutes in the games would help all that much. I'm sure the experience of being in there with the crowd screaming and the refs blowing whistles and the scoreboard blazing and the clock winding down is a valuable one. But while I've never seen a Duke practice that wasn't open to the public, I've heard the intra-squad scrimmages are pretty intense, and I bet that at least occasionally they play with refs and scoreboard and crowd noise (although probably not an actual crowd). So my guess is the idea that a player needs to play in actual games in order to be prepared is largely overblown.

[Philadukie]

You said that much better than I did. What do I owe you?

Ha, thanks. Is there a way to buy a Satisfaction burger and fries and have it delivered Pennsylvania?

Just to carry this concept of marginal benefit a step further, one could imagine a scenario where Alex Murphy starts and plays tons of minutes for a team that TT also plays for but never gets off the bench. Let's say this hypothetical team has two defensive AA's at the 1 and 2 spots but mediocre scorers, a good but not great post scorer, and another strong defensive 4 man. Who would you start at the 3, if your options were Alex, TT, and Hairston? You'd start Alex, and he'd get a ton of minutes, because the team would need his marginal offensive benefits much more than TT's and Hairston's marginal defensive benefits. You already have two defensive AA's at the guard spots.

As our current roster stands, we have great scoring options with MPII, Kelly, Curry, and Sulaimon. If Sulaimon goes out, you still have the other 3 to get you points. You can only have one guy score on each trip, and the law of diminishing returns makes Alex's offensive marginal benefits much less valuable. It's worth utilizing TT's marginal defensive benefits to get the highest marginal value.

[A-Tex Devil]

Alex Murphy may be destined to simply be a role player at Duke, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Duke has had exactly two guys in the last 20 years stack up DNPs and/or average significantly less than 10 minutes/game as a freshman and become a major offensive contributor - Ryan Kelly and Nate James (correct me if I am wrong -- I may be). Both were on teams that were deep at their position (and Nate was often hurt - redshirting his true sophomore year). Ryan Kelly still played just about every game and only had a handful of DNPs. Alex's career trajectory is more like Nick Horvath, Lee Melchionni, David McClure, etc., and if Alex can have their career, that's great.

This isn't an indictment on Duke. It's just how college basketball works now. Thomas Robinson is really the last major college (BCS conference) player I can remember going from end of bench to all-American in a few years.

Sure, I could be proven wrong. There are exceptions to every rule. But I always thought it was quite telling when Murphy didn't play last year (and I know he was supposed to be a senior in high school) considering we needed his skill set badly. That he is getting less than 5 minutes a game and DNPs against even scrub teams this year is more telling. You can compare to Elliot Williams all you want, but EWill got a lot of double digit minute games early, then rode the pine as ACC play started, before he really came on at the end of the year.

Again -- in college basketball these days, if you are good, you play early and often, right away. Improvement is possible, and even likely. And teams need role players and glue guys like David McClure. But let's just say my personal expectations on Alex Murphy's ceiling is not that high based on past player development. I hope to be proven wrong.

[Kedsy]

Duke has had exactly two guys in the last 20 years stack up DNPs and/or average significantly less than 10 minutes/game as a freshman and become a major offensive contributor - Ryan Kelly and Nate James (correct me if I am wrong -- I may be).

Well, they may not have been major offensive contributors, but both Miles Plumlee and Brian Zoubek were starters and major contributors in their time at Duke. They should count, which would give us three such players (including Ryan) in the past 6 years. Four if you count Tyler Thornton as a major contributor.

In years past, Eric Meek (4 mpg his freshman year), Greg Newton (3.4 mpg) and of course Alaa Abdelnaby (5.8 mpg) all became starters and double-digit scorers (although of the three only Newton was a freshman within the past 20 years).

If you expand the list to freshmen with DNPs who averaged a little over 10 mpg (although I understand there's a pretty good chance Alex won't get that many minutes this season), the list would also include guys like Thomas Hill, Tony Lang, Cherokee Parks, Chris Collins, Mason Plumlee (although I believe all Mason's DNPs were due to injury), and Quinn Cook.

The other thing to consider is Alex was the 45th ranked recruit last season (according to RSCI). And while I know he was ranked much higher before he reclassified, here is the list of Duke recruits ranked 25 or higher since 2002:


Michael Thompson, #30 (transferred, so we'll never know if he would have contributed as an upperclassman)
Dave McClure, #71
Eric Boateng, #39 (transferred)
Marty Pocius, #53
Jamal Boykin, #60 (transferred)
Brian Zoubek, #25 (hardly played as a freshman, started 37 games for Duke and was a huge part of the national championship team)
Jon Scheyer, #28 (the exception)
Olek Czyz, #66 (transferred)
Miles Plumlee, #81 (hardly played as a freshman, ended up starting 57 games for Duke)
Josh Hairston, #32
Tyler Thornton, unranked (3 DNPs and 9 mpg as a freshman, has started 24 games and been a big contributor since)
Michael Gbinije, #28 (transferred)
Quinn Cook, #31 (around 11 mpg as a frosh, already a big contributor)
Alex Murphy, #45 (jury still out)
Marshall Plumlee, #61 (jury still out)

Of the 15 guys above, only one played a lot as a freshman (Jon Scheyer). Five transferred, which could mean they realized they were never going to be big contributors at Duke or may mean we'll never know. Of the remaining nine guys, two are currently redshirt freshman, three were pretty much subs (assuming Josh Hairston doesn't make a big leap next year), and four became big contributors. So if you chose to be a little optimistic about it, you could interpret Alex's odds of becoming a big contributor at around 50/50.

[CDu]

Of the 15 guys above, only one played a lot as a freshman (Jon Scheyer). Five transferred, which could mean they realized they were never going to be big contributors at Duke or may mean we'll never know. Of the remaining nine guys, two are currently redshirt freshman, three were pretty much subs (assuming Josh Hairston doesn't make a big leap next year), and four became big contributors. So if you chose to be a little optimistic about it, you could interpret Alex's odds of becoming a big contributor at around 50/50.

Well, to be fair, most of those guys averaged more mpg than Murphy is averaging this year (especially considering that we're soon to add another guy to the mix for minutes). And note that Murphy already has redshirted, which none of the guys on the list (aside from Marshall) did. So we have a season's worth of 0 games and 0 mpg and, in his second year in the system, a start with 2 DNP already and 2.8 mpg. Considering that we add Jones, Hood, (possibly) Parker, and (possibly) Dawkins to the mix next year, I think it's probably more than a little optimistic to say 50/50 that he becomes a big contributor.

I hope I'm wrong, but the redshirt last year and the lack of minutes so far this year (during two seasons in which we could theoretically use a gifted, taller wing player) do raise doubts.

[OldPhiKap]

Of course, in many of those years the first six games did not include two top-five teams, or four-out-of-six likely tournament teams. It is hard to compare across years sometimes, especially in this day of high-profile early games that did not happen as often or as early in years past. (Didn't Thanksgiving mark the preseason tournament starts, more or less?)

I think that when we get to ACC play, this discussion may or may not be ripe. But it is a bit premature at this point it seems to me.

[Kedsy]

Well, to be fair, most of those guys averaged more mpg than Murphy is averaging this year (especially considering that we're soon to add another guy to the mix for minutes). And note that Murphy already has redshirted, which none of the guys on the list (aside from Marshall) did. So we have a season's worth of 0 games and 0 mpg and, in his second year in the system, a start with 2 DNP already and 2.8 mpg. Considering that we add Jones, Hood, (possibly) Parker, and (possibly) Dawkins to the mix next year, I think it's probably more than a little optimistic to say 50/50 that he becomes a big contributor.

I hope I'm wrong, but the redshirt last year and the lack of minutes so far this year (during two seasons in which we could theoretically use a gifted, taller wing player) do raise doubts.

Ok, maybe more than a little, but not outside the realm of possibility. I expect Alex's minutes to go up in December. Plus I expect he'll be needed next year as a "stretch 4" which would put him in competition for minutes with Amile and Josh (and maybe Jabari), rather than Rasheed, Matt, Rodney, Semi, hopefully Andre, and in the best of worlds Jabari.

[CDu]

Of course, in many of those years the first six games did not include two top-five teams, or four-out-of-six likely tournament teams. It is hard to compare across years sometimes, especially in this day of high-profile early games that did not happen as often or as early in years past. (Didn't Thanksgiving mark the preseason tournament starts, more or less?)

I think that when we get to ACC play, this discussion may or may not be ripe. But it is a bit premature at this point it seems to me.

Well, we aren't likely to get many easier games than the GSU and FGCU games this year, and Murphy logged a DNP and 6 minutes in those games.

[CDu]

Ok, maybe more than a little, but not outside the realm of possibility. I expect Alex's minutes to go up in December. Plus I expect he'll be needed next year as a "stretch 4" which would put him in competition for minutes with Amile and Josh (and maybe Jabari), rather than Rasheed, Matt, Rodney, Semi, hopefully Andre, and in the best of worlds Jabari.

I agree that it is possible. And I also agree that Murphy's best bet next year is to win minutes at the "stretch 4" spot. But the fact that he's behind both Hairston and Jefferson at that spot now doesn't bode well, especially give that I'd expect Parker to get in the mix at PF as well if we get him (I just don't see enough minutes at the 2 and 3 with Sulaimon and Hood in the mix there).

[Kedsy]

I agree that it is possible. And I also agree that Murphy's best bet next year is to win minutes at the "stretch 4" spot. But the fact that he's behind both Hairston and Jefferson at that spot now doesn't bode well, especially give that I'd expect Parker to get in the mix at PF as well if we get him (I just don't see enough minutes at the 2 and 3 with Sulaimon and Hood in the mix there).

You're probably right. If we get Jabari it will put the squeeze on several players' minutes. The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?

[CDu]

You're probably right. If we get Jabari it will put the squeeze on several players' minutes. The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?

Totally agree. The inconsistency between Coach K's comments (both last year and beginning late this summer, when he pronounced that we'd be bigger on the wing and that Murphy was likely to start) and Murphy's redshirt and VERY limited role so far this year is quite strange.

As for Parker, it will definitely crimp the minutes (assuming Hood is as good as advertised. I'd expect Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker to get 30+ mpg each. That leaves maybe 30 mpg at the 2, 3, and 4 spots for Thornton, Jones, Ojeleye, Murphy, and Jefferson (and possibly, though I do wonder about, Dawkins).

Don't get me wrong - I'd be thrilled to get Parker in the mix. But if folks are complaining about players getting limited minutes now? All I have to say about next year is "yikes."

[Wander]

The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?

Yeah, this is exactly why it's so weird to me. I don't remember Coach K ever talking up Gbinije in the same way, or any of the other past "fan favorite" players who see so little playing time. I even assumed Murphy redshirted last year because of unspoken eligibility concerns from his coming to Duke a year early - it was the only realistic scenario that made sense to me, given how Coach K talked him up and our desperate need for a small forward. But obviously it looks like I was wrong in that regard. It's just a strange situation, and I don't know of any fit comparison from a past Coach K team.

[A-Tex Devil]

Of the 15 guys above, only one played a lot as a freshman (Jon Scheyer). Five transferred, which could mean they realized they were never going to be big contributors at Duke or may mean we'll never know. Of the remaining nine guys, two are currently redshirt freshman, three were pretty much subs (assuming Josh Hairston doesn't make a big leap next year), and four became big contributors. So if you chose to be a little optimistic about it, you could interpret Alex's odds of becoming a big contributor at around 50/50.

Fair enough. And maybe my perception is just not reality, which I'll grant is also fair. I won't argue with anyone that throws Zoubek, Mi.Plumlee or Thornton into the mix (although Thornton is just below that 10 minute mark that I typically used as I've thought about this issue).

Maybe this just goes back to the idea that, hey, K knows what he is doing, and there is a reason these guys don't play. I.E., more of a response to unbridled optimism with respect to players that don't play much as the solution to particular woes -- whether it's Gbinije, Marty Pocius, Czyz, or, in this case, Alex Murphy. I get that it is nice to "hope," but if Murphy really were the next Singler, or if Gbinije, when he was here, was able to contribute significantly, they would have played more.

Again -- this isn't an attack on player development, but just an observation on college basketball as a whole. The elite juniors and seniors around the country (and I know there aren't a lot) generally were significant rotation players (at least) as freshmen. If a freshman can't get off the bench and piles up DNPs, that's generally not a good sign, regardless of how deep your team is at the time.

[Monmouth77]

Totally agree. The inconsistency between Coach K's comments (both last year and beginning late this summer, when he pronounced that we'd be bigger on the wing and that Murphy was likely to start) and Murphy's redshirt and VERY limited role so far this year is quite strange.

As for Parker, it will definitely crimp the minutes (assuming Hood is as good as advertised. I'd expect Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker to get 30+ mpg each. That leaves maybe 30 mpg at the 2, 3, and 4 spots for Thornton, Jones, Ojeleye, Murphy, and Jefferson (and possibly, though I do wonder about, Dawkins).

Don't get me wrong - I'd be thrilled to get Parker in the mix. But if folks are complaining about players getting limited minutes now? All I have to say about next year is "yikes."

By my observation, the most convincing answer to the Alex Murphy riddle (ie; the cognitive dissonance between Coach K's preseason optimism and Murphy's as-yet limited PT) is that Rasheed has simply forced Coach K's hand.

It's not just that Rasheed is better, more mature, and more confident than most (including, apparently, the coaching staff) thought. It's that the need to put him on the floor gives us more of a turnover generating, fastbreak running, dribble drive oriented team. And playing and maintaining that style, in turn, affects substitution patterns. We put in Tyler to keep the defense tight and make sure the guards have fresh legs (especially an injured Seth Curry). And we put in Amile and Josh (and hopefully, eventually Marshall) to rest the bigs a little and manage foul trouble.

I think Alex would have gotten more minutes last season as a true freshman because we played a bit slower tempo, depended a bit more on halfcourt execution, and, lacking any size on the perimeter, could have used him to good effect defensively.

Rasheed is just quick and "long" enough to guard big wings (at least it appears so far), and he has delivered mature, balanced, aggressive and effective play on both sides of the ball. It would not be crazy to say he's been our best defender.

He hasn't exactly dazzled like, e.g. Kyrie Irving, where you knew he was on the fast train to NBA stardom. But like Coach K has apparently remarked, he looks like a Junior year Nolan Smith out there.

How do you keep him off the floor? You can't. And that's at least as compelling an explanation for Alex's lack of PT as any other.

We have a true PG (Cook), a true SG (Curry) and Sulaimon has locked down the small wing spot.

[Dukeblue91]

You're probably right. If we get Jabari it will put the squeeze on several players' minutes. The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?

This is the big question and quite frankly has me very confused.
There seems to be something that we are missing or not know about.
I can't think of any player that Coach K talked so well about not being used at all and totally falling of the end of the bench.
There has got to be something else that is holding his playing back.

[CDu]

By my observation, the most convincing answer to the Alex Murphy riddle (ie; the cognitive dissonance between Coach K's preseason optimism and Murphy's as-yet limited PT) is that Rasheed has simply forced Coach K's hand.

It's not just that Rasheed is better, more mature, and more confident than most (including, apparently, the coaching staff) thought. It's that the need to put him on the floor gives us more of a turnover generating, fastbreak running, dribble drive oriented team. And playing and maintaining that style, in turn, affects substitution patterns. We put in Tyler to keep the defense tight and make sure the guards have fresh legs (especially an injured Seth Curry). And we put in Amile and Josh (and hopefully, eventually Marshall) to rest the bigs a little and manage foul trouble.

I think Alex would have gotten more minutes last season as a true freshman because we played a bit slower tempo, depended a bit more on halfcourt execution, and, lacking any size on the perimeter, could have used him to good effect defensively.

Rasheed is just quick and "long" enough to guard big wings (at least it appears so far), and he has delivered mature, balanced, aggressive and effective play on both sides of the ball. It would not be crazy to say he's been our best defender.

He hasn't exactly dazzled like, e.g. Kyrie Irving, where you knew he was on the fast train to NBA stardom. But like Coach K has apparently remarked, he looks like a Junior year Nolan Smith out there.

How do you keep him off the floor? You can't. And that's at least as compelling an explanation for Alex's lack of PT as any other.

We have a true PG (Cook), a true SG (Curry) and Sulaimon has locked down the small wing spot.

I don't necessarily agree, for two reasons:
1. Coach K undoubtedly already knew how good Sulaimon was early this year. It would be hard not to see that immediately. Additionally, Coach K was also talking about how involved Sulaimon was going to be before the season. So I think he knew that Sulaimon would be a prominent player.
2. Murphy is also behind Thornton and Jefferson in the SF pecking order. Even with Sulaimon playing 32 mpg, there are still nearly 30 mpg being picked up by Jefferson and Thornton. If Murphy was really ready to be a 4-year starter, you'd think he'd have absorbed some of those minutes.

[subzero02]

Totally agree. The inconsistency between Coach K's comments (both last year and beginning late this summer, when he pronounced that we'd be bigger on the wing and that Murphy was likely to start) and Murphy's redshirt and VERY limited role so far this year is quite strange.

As for Parker, it will definitely crimp the minutes (assuming Hood is as good as advertised. I'd expect Sulaimon, Hood, and Parker to get 30+ mpg each. That leaves maybe 30 mpg at the 2, 3, and 4 spots for Thornton, Jones, Ojeleye, Murphy, and Jefferson (and possibly, though I do wonder about, Dawkins).

Don't get me wrong - I'd be thrilled to get Parker in the mix. But if folks are complaining about players getting limited minutes now? All I have to say about next year is "yikes."

I am just glad that Rasheed appears to have some pretty solid point guard skills already... Maybe he can takeover Curry's "spot" point guard duties for 7-9 mpg while our "battle for atlantis MVP" rests on the bench. That'll free up a little time at the 2, 3 and 4 positions. It will be a nice problem to deal with.

[NSDukeFan]

You're probably right. If we get Jabari it will put the squeeze on several players' minutes. The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?


This is the big question and quite frankly has me very confused.
There seems to be something that we are missing or not know about.
I can't think of any player that Coach K talked so well about not being used at all and totally falling of the end of the bench.
There has got to be something else that is holding his playing back.

I am not convinced that Alex will remain out of the rotation this year. I don't expect he will see major minutes vs. Ohio State. But, I think this is a different situation with how coach K has talked about Murphy and how much he has played so far. I am convinced (I could be wrong) that a message (disciplinary or not) was being sent to Murphy when he got his DNP vs. Georgia State and in no way reflected the coaching staff's belief of whether he could contribute in that game. I always want to see more time from the end of bench guys, but I agree there is something odd about this situation, based on the messages sent by coach K last year and this pre-season.

[Kedsy]

I am just glad that Rasheed appears to have some pretty solid point guard skills already... Maybe he can takeover Curry's "spot" point guard duties for 7-9 mpg while our "battle for atlantis MVP" rests on the bench. That'll free up a little time at the 2, 3 and 4 positions. It will be a nice problem to deal with.

I'm not sure I understand your point. First of all, in the Atlantis games Quinn averaged almost 35 mpg, so Seth wasn't playing PG for 7 to 9 minutes. Second, Rasheed already averages 32 mpg, so it's hard to see him taking over more minutes. Third, why would we want to "free up a little time" by keeping Seth off the court, unless his injury necessitates fewer minutes?

Ultimately, the only way playing time frees up for Alex is if he earns time over Amile and/or Tyler, or if the starters play fewer minutes in the aggregate. Having one starter take over another starter's minutes isn't going to do it.

[gumbomoop]

Maybe this just goes back to the idea that, hey, K knows what he is doing

There's near, but not quite total, agreement on this point, so this is pretty much a default given. But this only, and especially, deepens the mini-mystery. As several posters have noted....


The real mystery here is why for over a year has Coach K been talking up Alex as a potential four year starter and a possible All-ACC player if he's really the 10th guy on the roster?


Totally agree. The inconsistency between Coach K's comments (both last year and beginning late this summer, when he pronounced that we'd be bigger on the wing and that Murphy was likely to start) and Murphy's redshirt and VERY limited role so far this year is quite strange.


Yeah, this is exactly why it's so weird to me. I don't remember Coach K ever talking up Gbinije in the same way, or any of the other past "fan favorite" players who see so little playing time.... It's just a strange situation, and I don't know of any fit comparison from a past Coach K team.

Monmouth77 has a theory.


By my observation, the most convincing answer to the Alex Murphy riddle (ie; the cognitive dissonance between Coach K's preseason optimism and Murphy's as-yet limited PT) is that Rasheed has simply forced Coach K's hand.

It's not just that Rasheed is better, more mature, and more confident than most (including, apparently, the coaching staff) though. It's that the need to put him on the floor gives us more of a turnover generating, fastbreak running, dribble drive oriented team.

But CDu and Kedsy [whose post in response to Monmouth has mysteriously disappeared, deepening the mystery-now-conspiracy] are not entirely convinced.


I don't necessarily agree.... Murphy is also behind Thornton and Jefferson in the SF pecking order.

Paraphrasing the now mysteriously missing Kedsy post: "I don't think Monmouth77 is entirely correct....."

I would say, "K owes us an explanation, and needs to tell us whether Monmouth77 has it about right," except someone might think I'm serious. So I won't say that. Even though K really should tell us, as it's bugging us, big time. And I'm suspicious that Kedsy may now be banned for a month...... Oh, wait, he's just posted again. We have to get to the bottom of the earlier missing Kedsy post..... Maybe K knows what happened. Trust in K.

Except where Alex Murphy is concerned.

[Monmouth77]

I don't necessarily agree, for two reasons:
1. Coach K undoubtedly already knew how good Sulaimon was early this year. It would be hard not to see that immediately. Additionally, Coach K was also talking about how involved Sulaimon was going to be before the season. So I think he knew that Sulaimon would be a prominent player.
2. Murphy is also behind Thornton and Jefferson in the SF pecking order. Even with Sulaimon playing 32 mpg, there are still nearly 30 mpg being picked up by Jefferson and Thornton. If Murphy was really ready to be a 4-year starter, you'd think he'd have absorbed some of those minutes.

As to point 1, I don't think Coach K made the statement pre-season that Sulaimon would start. He was positive about Sulaimon and made statements to the effect that he would be a major factor, but he said Alex would start. It seems to me that Sulaimon has earned it on the floor in a way that surprised everyone. Coach K is now saying (and I agree, at least so far) that Sulaimon looks like an accomplished upperclassman out there. He's comparing him to the 2010 version of Nolan Smith. No such comments were made (or probably warranted) in the pre-season.

Your point 2 is a good one, I agree. But it gets at what I was trying to say about substitution patterns. It seems to me we are emphasizing quickness and defense on the perimeter. That's not to say Alex can't run the floor or defend in his own way, just that Amile and Tyler are quicker and more disruptive defensively.

But I think Sulaimon's play has been a sea change. And we are adapting to that stylistically. Coach K loves disruptive defense and points off turnovers. That's what we are going with, at least for now.

[ricks68]

This is the big question and quite frankly has me very confused.
There seems to be something that we are missing or not know about.
I can't think of any player that Coach K talked so well about not being used at all and totally falling of the end of the bench.
There has got to be something else that is holding his playing back.

This is the reason I started this thread. I think that there is more out there that we don't know about. (Of note, the coach's decision not to have Murphy suit-up for a game at the beginning of the season. Was that a disciplinary decision?)

I must admit, however, that Amile Jefferson sure has surprised me (and probably Coach K). I think that Amile could well have cut off a lot of Alex's possible minutes in the front line as well, in addition to Rasheed's additional time in the backcourt.

ricks

[Dukeblue91]

This is the reason I started this thread. I think that there is more out there that we don't know about. (Of note, the coach's decision not to have Murphy suit-up for a game at the beginning of the season. Was that a disciplinary decision?)

I must admit, however, that Amile Jefferson sure has surprised me (and probably Coach K). I think that Amile could well have cut off a lot of Alex's possible minutes in the front line as well, in addition to Rasheed's additional time in the backcourt.

ricks
I have given this a little more thought.
I think one of the bigger things is that in order to get minutes to him Coach would have to cut down on starters which all are doing great or Tyler and Josh which are also doing well for their time.
And Josh is really the big men backup and does not get all that many minutes.
So unless he is so great to warrant this then there is not much here.
Whoever said that about Rasheed forcing coach K hand may be very close to the truth.
Rasheed may have been way better then the staff thought he'd be and is commending the minutes that may had been allotted to Alex at the beginning.
But that still does not explain away that one DNP in street cloth.

[Acymetric]

I agree that Coach K needs to play the guys that will help him win right now, and that he is privy to what is happening in practice, which none of us know about. However, not to beat a really dead horse, but I still wonder why Alex did not get in at all in the GA State game. We were up 20 most of the second half, so why not use this as a chance to get a freshman some PT. Our guys are flexible enough that Alex, Amile and Hairston can all be on the court at the same time. As has been mentioned above, one or two injuries could press Alex into action whether he's ready or not, so why not give him a chance to best be prepared for that situation?

I see this as an argument with regards to getting the backups in all the time, and I'll counter with this:

Why not use that as an opportunity to help the top guys in the rotation continue to gell and work on some different looks or ideas that may not be practical to try in a tight game where every possession matters?

[Newton_14]

There's near, but not quite total, agreement on this point, so this is pretty much a default given. But this only, and especially, deepens the mini-mystery. As several posters have noted....







Monmouth77 has a theory.



But CDu and Kedsy [whose post in response to Monmouth has mysteriously disappeared, deepening the mystery-now-conspiracy] are not entirely convinced.



Paraphrasing the now mysteriously missing Kedsy post: "I don't think Monmouth77 is entirely correct....."

I would say, "K owes us an explanation, and needs to tell us whether Monmouth77 has it about right," except someone might think I'm serious. So I won't say that. Even though K really should tell us, as it's bugging us, big time. And I'm suspicious that Kedsy may now be banned for a month...... Oh, wait, he's just posted again. We have to get to the bottom of the earlier missing Kedsy post..... Maybe K knows what happened. Trust in K.

Except where Alex Murphy is concerned.

I can solve on of the mystery's for you. Kedsy deleted his own post. You will have to ask him why though:D


But you hit on the key point for me. This isn't about "angst" over how K uses his bench. This is a unique and strange situation (to me anyway). A highly rated player, earns a starting spot 2 years in a row heading into Pre-Season games. K raves about how the highly rated player has All-ACC potential. Then the highly rated player not only falls out of the starting lineup, he moves to the far end of the bench. It is just strange and I have never seen a situation like this in the entire K Era.

I am disappointed as I expected Alex to be a stud on the wing based on seeing him play in high school. Since Austin was always going to be a one and done, Murphy was the recruit I wanted the most back when he signed. I just had him pegged as a future star player at Duke.

Now? I have no earthly idea what kind of player Alex ends up being for Duke. No clue.

[Newton_14]

This is the reason I started this thread. I think that there is more out there that we don't know about. (Of note, the coach's decision not to have Murphy suit-up for a game at the beginning of the season. Was that a disciplinary decision?)

I must admit, however, that Amile Jefferson sure has surprised me (and probably Coach K). I think that Amile could well have cut off a lot of Alex's possible minutes in the front line as well, in addition to Rasheed's additional time in the backcourt.

ricks


I have given this a little more thought.
But that still does not explain away that one DNP in street cloth.

Not sure where this started, but Alex was not in street clothes in that first game. He dressed out, went through warmups, etc, but just never got in the game.

[subzero02]

I'm not sure I understand your point. First of all, in the Atlantis games Quinn averaged almost 35 mpg, so Seth wasn't playing PG for 7 to 9 minutes. Second, Rasheed already averages 32 mpg, so it's hard to see him taking over more minutes. Third, why would we want to "free up a little time" by keeping Seth off the court, unless his injury necessitates fewer minutes?

Ultimately, the only way playing time frees up for Alex is if he earns time over Amile and/or Tyler, or if the starters play fewer minutes in the aggregate. Having one starter take over another starter's minutes isn't going to do it.

I was talking about next year when Seth is gone... Rasheed has shown the skills necessary to run the one when Cook is on the bench. If some of Rasheed's minutes are played as the primary ballhandler then additional minutes will be available for our arsenal of wings.

[devil84]

I agree that Coach K needs to play the guys that will help him win right now, and that he is privy to what is happening in practice, which none of us know about. However, not to beat a really dead horse, but I still wonder why Alex did not get in at all in the GA State game. We were up 20 most of the second half, so why not use this as a chance to get a freshman some PT. Our guys are flexible enough that Alex, Amile and Hairston can all be on the court at the same time. As has been mentioned above, one or two injuries could press Alex into action whether he's ready or not, so why not give him a chance to best be prepared for that situation?

Maybe Alex didn't play against Georgia State because Coach K was preparing the team for a particularly brutal series of five ranked teams in six days? Is it worth a few minutes in the game to "develop" a young player as opposed to a few more minutes of ensuring that the TEAM that will play UK, Minn, VCU, UL, tOSU, and even that scrappy FGCU, has the best chance of winning? There's plenty of time after the Ohio State game to develop the bench. Right now, the focus is winning and putting the best team on the floor in this extremely difficult stretch of the schedule. Letting a player have a few minutes in one game when there aren't going to be many for him in the next six games hardly seems like the most effective way to develop a player. Why not wait until December when the level of competition isn't so insanely high?


A plausible answer to your question is it was to impart a lesson. Exactly what the lesson was, I have no idea. Based on his continued lack of playing time, perhaps Alex hasn't learned the lesson well enough yet.

As far as being prepared to play, if he's not prepared after practicing every day it's hard to see how a few extra minutes in the games would help all that much. I'm sure the experience of being in there with the crowd screaming and the refs blowing whistles and the scoreboard blazing and the clock winding down is a valuable one. But while I've never seen a Duke practice that wasn't open to the public, I've heard the intra-squad scrimmages are pretty intense, and I bet that at least occasionally they play with refs and scoreboard and crowd noise (although probably not an actual crowd). So my guess is the idea that a player needs to play in actual games in order to be prepared is largely overblown.

Having been a part of those practices, I can say that the bolded part of Kedsy's post is true. The brutal intra-squad scrimmages more than emulate the pressure of game conditions, which allows for substantial player development. That's not to say one can't learn anything from games, but the bulk of the development is in practice.

[MartyClark]

Following the Ohio State game, we have seven games, ending with Wake Forest, that are against "lesser" teams. I hope that Murphy and Jefferson get some minutes during that stretch. I don't second guess Coach K but I sometime wonder why he doesn't go a little deeper in games that are in hand. I'd like to see these guys, and MPIII if he's healthy, get some playing time during that stretch.

[CoachJ10]

Well, we aren't likely to get many easier games than the GSU and FGCU games this year, and Murphy logged a DNP and 6 minutes in those games.

Perhaps K was focused in those games on preparing the players best suited at the time for the UK, OSU, and potential Bahama lineup and wanted them to get their cohesion, given how early those slated games came in the schedule.

[Indoor66]

Is it possible there is a physical reason for his not playing? An undisclosed injury or illness? I don't know and am not asserting either as a fact. Just asking a question for discussion or disregarding.

[dcar1985]

Maybe Alex didn't play against Georgia State because Coach K was preparing the team for a particularly brutal series of five ranked teams in six days? Is it worth a few minutes in the game to "develop" a young player as opposed to a few more minutes of ensuring that the TEAM that will play UK, Minn, VCU, UL, tOSU, and even that scrappy FGCU, has the best chance of winning? There's plenty of time after the Ohio State game to develop the bench. Right now, the focus is winning and putting the best team on the floor in this extremely difficult stretch of the schedule. Letting a player have a few minutes in one game when there aren't going to be many for him in the next six games hardly seems like the most effective way to develop a player. Why not wait until December when the level of competition isn't so insanely high?



Having been a part of those practices, I can say that the bolded part of Kedsy's post is true. The brutal intra-squad scrimmages more than emulate the pressure of game conditions, which allows for substantial player development. That's not to say one can't learn anything from games, but the bulk of the development is in practice.

I'd have to somewhat disagree there.

As far as pure player development, sure one can gain plenty from practice, scrimmages etc. But that doesn't account for the mental part of the game. As intense as intra-squad scrimmages may get there is also a certain amount of comfort and familiarity there that makes it easier to relax and play your game. These are guys you hang w/ everyday. But performing on the big stage in front of the big crowds is a whole different monster, you could liken it to stage fright, you might have went over your lines backwards and forwards but soon as you hit that stage you freeze. Miles was always reported as someone who would look fantastic in practice but it never really carried over to real game situations.

As far as Alex though doesn't seem like he's killing in practice either due to his lack of pt so far but I definitely noticed even going back to last year and hearing about him being in the mix for a starting spot but then looking less than stellar during the China/Dubai trip, B/W game and exhibitions that he might have a confidence issue or being a "Practice All Star"

This year before the first game I posted that I didn't think Alex looked comfortable out there during the first two exhibitions and worried about his confidence, a few posters jumped all over me for it but I thought it was pretty obvious.

Anyways I definitely think there is a great deal to be gained from getting reps in an actual game especially w/ the young guys, hopefully we'll see more of Alex and Amile for that matter after the tOSU game. I think he's a talented kid who when/if he puts it all together will be a big part of what Duke BB does going forward.

[roywhite]

Of all the things to talk about regarding Duke basketball, I find it stunning that this topic seems to draw the most interest.

We just completed an amazing 3-game tournament, are currently undefeated, and have played the toughest schedule in the country. On the individual player side, we have great stories with Mason Plumlee off to a great start, Quinn Cook seizing the PG position and being MVP of the tournament, and Rasheed Sulaimon playing at an incredibly high level for a freshman. And that's not to slight Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, and Tyler Thornton among other regulars. Yet talk of the team and these players seems of less interest than a freshman who's not getting much playing time currently.

Have at it, I guess.

[Kedsy]

I was talking about next year when Seth is gone... Rasheed has shown the skills necessary to run the one when Cook is on the bench. If some of Rasheed's minutes are played as the primary ballhandler then additional minutes will be available for our arsenal of wings.

Oh, OK, I obviously didn't understand. What about Tyler, though? He'll be a senior; wouldn't he be the logical guy to play during the 5 to 10 minutes when Quinn is off the floor?

[ricks68]

Not sure where this started, but Alex was not in street clothes in that first game. He dressed out, went through warmups, etc, but just never got in the game.

I think this got started in a comment or in the pre or post-game stat box where it stated that Alex didn't play because of a coach's decision. I apologize in advance for not having that reference for the board, as we have numerous other members that can research that out a lot easier than I can. As far as not even suiting up for the game, just write that off as another mistake, of many on my part over the years, unless someone has a valid reference for that also. Otherwise, I still think there is something not quite right here.

So, I'll try one more time by asking if Watzone or Jim Sumner can chime in on this.

(Otherwise, might as well let this thread die, as it will begin to totally devolve into the usual discussion over why Coach K has the number of players in his rotation this year, etc., etc., etc.----------as if it really matters to those of us that have been watching him the past 32 years. I trust Coach K. He knows what he is doing. Maybe it's time for Throaty to show up about now with the correct categorizations if no other reliable info is forthcoming.)

ricks

[OldPhiKap]

Of all the things to talk about regarding Duke basketball, I find it stunning that this topic seems to draw the most interest.

We just completed an amazing 3-game tournament, are currently undefeated, and have played the toughest schedule in the country. On the individual player side, we have great stories with Mason Plumlee off to a great start, Quinn Cook seizing the PG position and being MVP of the tournament, and Rasheed Sulaimon playing at an incredibly high level for a freshman. And that's not to slight Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, and Tyler Thornton among other regulars. Yet talk of the team and these players seems of less interest than a freshman who's not getting much playing time currently.

Have at it, I guess.

You're swimming against the tide, my friend.

[subzero02]

Oh, OK, I obviously didn't understand. What about Tyler, though? He'll be a senior; wouldn't he be the logical guy to play during the 5 to 10 minutes when Quinn is off the floor?

I prefer Rasheed's aggression and dribble penetration to Tyler's slow and steady point guard play. If Rasheed can avoid TO's at the one, he has a lot more potential than Thornton in terms of creating scoring opportunities for our wings. I don't hate having Tyler at the point, he's just better suited as a defensive dynamo, spot-up shooter, and all around glue guy.

[Furniture]

Basically everyone wants Alex to do well! Like every other player. It's as simple as that!

[dukelifer]

Maybe Alex didn't play against Georgia State because Coach K was preparing the team for a particularly brutal series of five ranked teams in six days? Is it worth a few minutes in the game to "develop" a young player as opposed to a few more minutes of ensuring that the TEAM that will play UK, Minn, VCU, UL, tOSU, and even that scrappy FGCU, has the best chance of winning? There's plenty of time after the Ohio State game to develop the bench. Right now, the focus is winning and putting the best team on the floor in this extremely difficult stretch of the schedule. Letting a player have a few minutes in one game when there aren't going to be many for him in the next six games hardly seems like the most effective way to develop a player. Why not wait until December when the level of competition isn't so insanely high?



Having been a part of those practices, I can say that the bolded part of Kedsy's post is true. The brutal intra-squad scrimmages more than emulate the pressure of game conditions, which allows for substantial player development. That's not to say one can't learn anything from games, but the bulk of the development is in practice.

I have never been a part of those practices but I do imagine that playing in front of a crowd and in a big game does affect athletes differently. I am not sure those game conditions and emotions can be fully simulated in practice. Alex looks pretty hyped when he gets on the floor - as if his adrenaline is in overdrive- something he may not be able to control yet. There is a sense that all these kids can handle it all from day one. The reality is that for some it takes time to develop confidence and not think too much. Nolan Smith is a great example - going from Deer-in-the-Headlights to ACC-POY in four years. I expect Alex is a much better practice player because he is used to that playing environment and is not nervous. Alex will get there - I have no doubt.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Of all the things to talk about regarding Duke basketball, I find it stunning that this topic seems to draw the most interest.

We just completed an amazing 3-game tournament, are currently undefeated, and have played the toughest schedule in the country. On the individual player side, we have great stories with Mason Plumlee off to a great start, Quinn Cook seizing the PG position and being MVP of the tournament, and Rasheed Sulaimon playing at an incredibly high level for a freshman. And that's not to slight Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, and Tyler Thornton among other regulars. Yet talk of the team and these players seems of less interest than a freshman who's not getting much playing time currently.

Have at it, I guess.

Makes total sense to me. This is something that multiple people don't understand, so we are hoping that someone can bring greater clarity to the situation. At this point, it appears that no one has any inside information and we have hashed out most of the plausible reasons, so I think it is getting a bit stale. Regarding the positive developments you've mentioned, there's only so many posts of "yeah Mason! Go Duke! Rah, rah, rah" that we need. I'm all for being positive and very pro-Duke, but patting ourselves on the back gets old fast. Personally, I tend to avoid threads that focus only on the good as no one is usually telling me something that I don't already know.

[devil84]

I'd have to somewhat disagree there.

As far as pure player development, sure one can gain plenty from practice, scrimmages etc. But that doesn't account for the mental part of the game. As intense as intra-squad scrimmages may get there is also a certain amount of comfort and familiarity there that makes it easier to relax and play your game. These are guys you hang w/ everyday. But performing on the big stage in front of the big crowds is a whole different monster, you could liken it to stage fright, you might have went over your lines backwards and forwards but soon as you hit that stage you freeze. Miles was always reported as someone who would look fantastic in practice but it never really carried over to real game situations.

Um, "easier to relax" in a Coach K practice? LOL! :D Yes, you are practicing against the guys you hang w/everyday. And these are the guys (including coaches) who will not let you forget even the tiniest mistake. Ever. They'll even help set you up to make it again! They know your strengths and weaknesses and will exploit them to make you better.

There is some degree of "stage fright," or "game time intangibles," too. That's a valid point. I didn't say you couldn't learn anything from games, but K's got a pretty good handle on what kind of player you'll be on the court because of how practice and scrimmages are structured. However, this preseason and early season is pretty dramatically different than most. This team was preparing to hit a string of top teams in a time span more brutal than the NCAA tournament. I'm guessing that a few minutes here or there to help a player develop (IOW, get over something analogous to stage fright) detracts from the mission to field the best team to play those big games against top teams. After Wednesday, I think we'll see much more of the bench and some tinkering with lineups as the level of competition returns to something much less intense.


This year before the first game I posted that I didn't think Alex looked comfortable out there during the first two exhibitions and worried about his confidence, a few posters jumped all over me for it but I thought it was pretty obvious.

Anyways I definitely think there is a great deal to be gained from getting reps in an actual game especially w/ the young guys, hopefully we'll see more of Alex and Amile for that matter after the tOSU game. I think he's a talented kid who when/if he puts it all together will be a big part of what Duke BB does going forward.

Yes, there's something to be gained in an actual game setting. But if a player has a confidence issue, I'm thinking that minutes against UK, UL, VCU, Minnesota, and tOSU aren't where you want to start, and actually could be quite counterproductive to that player's development. Ga State and FGCU, sure...BUT, with those top teams on the schedule just after those games, I'm sure Coach K is thinking he wants to use those games to develop his best players to get through the rest of that stretch. It's not that Alex (or Amile, or even Todd) aren't solid players; it's that they aren't right now. Let's field the best team on that murderer's row of games. And like you say, AFTER tOSU, THEN work on developing the next tier of players.

If Coach K talks about Alex in glowing terms, I'm sure he'll be a wonderful contributor. He's just not there NOW. We might have to be just a little more patient.

[IBleedBlue]

The reason why Alex's playing time is drawing so much interest & discussion despite our early season success is: something we all know and don't like to admit i.e. we have seen players sit on the bench waiting for their turn which never came or came in as garbage time and eventually these players transferred. For example, Olek Czyz & Michael Gbinije. And now we are all thinking in the backs of our minds that Alex Murphy might end up with the same fate.

I am personally inclined to put the new players in real games and get them some much needed confidence boost. DNP's and garbage time doesn't necessarily provide that.

[Kedsy]

I prefer Rasheed's aggression and dribble penetration to Tyler's slow and steady point guard play. If Rasheed can avoid TO's at the one, he has a lot more potential than Thornton in terms of creating scoring opportunities for our wings. I don't hate having Tyler at the point, he's just better suited as a defensive dynamo, spot-up shooter, and all around glue guy.

Again, sorry. I thought we were talking about what's probably going to happen. Coach K likes to have Tyler on the floor. If there's going to be someone to spell Quinn for 5 to 10 minutes at the point, sure Rasheed could do it, but the likelihood is he's not going to play those extra slightly-out-of-position minutes at the expense of a senior Tyler. Maybe his junior year, if he's still at Duke and we don't get Tyus Jones.

[uh_no]

I am personally inclined to put the new players in real games and get them some much needed confidence boost. DNP's and garbage time doesn't necessarily provide that.

Players get the time they earn. It's simple.

[subzero02]

Again, sorry. I thought we were talking about what's probably going to happen. Coach K likes to have Tyler on the floor. If there's going to be someone to spell Quinn for 5 to 10 minutes at the point, sure Rasheed could do it, but the likelihood is he's not going to play those extra slightly-out-of-position minutes at the expense of a senior Tyler. Maybe his junior year, if he's still at Duke and we don't get Tyus Jones.

I really don't see Thornton playing the point next year if either Rasheed or Quinn is on the floor. I also don't expect there to be very many instances when both are on the bench. K definitely likes having Thornton on the floor but this does not have to occur at the expense of our point guard play. I see the majority of Tyler's minutes coming at the 2 and 3. Obviously many different scenarios can play out between now and next year; however I think as Rasheed develops and displays his offensive skill set our option for secondary point guard will be crystal.

[gep]

I'll put my Rasheed comment here... I am totally impressed by Rasheed's "development" over only 6 games. I think he's a "keeper" as a starter, big minutes, etc. I don't think anyone, coaches included, expected Rasheed to do what he did in his first 6 games. Kinda like Zoub's senior year... where I thought he was doing very well, but when he did what he did in the Maryland game, well, history speaks for itself. I think it would be hard to sit Rasheed more than any of the senior starters, which to me, includes Quinn. So, everyone else has to do it in practice first, then in games. That said, I'm REALLY pulling for Alex to "get it" and be one of Duke's favorite 4-year players.

[Ultrarunner]

There has been a lot of chatter on the board on why Alex is getting more minutes/what's wrong with Alex/Alex is in the doghouse theme. I think the subject has been trashed within an inch of its life but I'll add my bits of insight and we'll thrash some more.

First, in focusing on Alex, I don't think we're giving proper consideration to the thought that last year, admittedly an aberration, the team did not play as a team. How many times did we watch Miles or Mason set a high screen and roll wide-open to the basket? How often did they actually get the ball? The offense was disjointed all season. Likewise on defense, we had some good individual play but poor team defense.

There were plenty of excuses. Austin was a freshman and though very talented, made freshman mistakes plus had a scorer's mentality on a team that needed him to share the ball more. Quinn was injured. Andre was sidetracked by life in general. Alex and Marshall red-shirted. Silent G couldn't get off the bench for whatever reason. Then Ryan gets hurt. Lots of moving parts, many of them new and they never jelled.

Fast forward to this year. A talented freshman is starting again and we have a healthy Quinn but an injured Seth and recovering Ryan. We're thin in the post until Marshall returns. We’ve also added a talented freshman in Amile Jefferson who has been a bit of a pleasant surprise. Tyler and Josh are still solid and play within their roles but otherwise it’s a team in flux with everybody learning new roles. Even Mason, a 4 year player, is learning how to be a truly dominant big man.

So my suspicion is that we first need to look at the development of the starting team first. These five will play heavy minutes and they need to be instinctive in their reactions to the others on the court especially in defensive sets. Mason needs to understand his new role as the leader, Quinn needs to practice dishing to the others under game conditions against various defenses, Rasheed just needs time in the rotation, Ryan is recovering from last year’s injury and Seth is learning to play through his. They need reps, lots of reps, to mesh.

I think that a major effort has been to accomplish this first and, based on early results, things are going well. The early schedule has been incredibly grueling and the game against Ohio State is not going to change that. It gets easier after that but we already have some of the answers we needed. Once we get to the soft Christmas schedule, we’ll have time to move on to developing new pieces.

Which brings us to Alex – and by comparison, Amile. Offensively, the balance has been outstanding and with 5 scorers on the floor, when we sub, we bring in defensive players – I liked the marginal utility argument. Neither Amile nor Alex are at that same level defensively yet which limits the time they spend on the court. Frankly, when they are on the court – except that odd stretch against Louisville when we had Quinn, Tyler, Josh, Amile and Alex on the court at the same time – they won’t be expected to be primary scorers. I liked the energy in that lineup but it was weird to watch.

Offensively, both are very raw. Amile has a much better touch around the basket and has been a more effective scorer. Alex is a very effective rebounder and will see time on the court when those skills are needed. That could happen as soon as the game against OSU. He has favorable size to handle a Big Ten team and the rougher style of play.

But before he sees the floor, Alex needs to get his head straight. Nobody knows exactly why Alex sat against Georgia State but it seems that it was a disciplinary issue – either team rules were broken, he wasn’t hustling in practice (which would surprise me) or grades were at issue. Message sent, hopefully message received. Now that we’ve consolidated the first team, I expect to see Coach K begin developing the secondary players in game situations.

Coach K has high expectations for Alex so I think that we’re are probably wasting some angst earlier than we need to. If we are at this same point in March where Alex is averaging 1.6 minutes a game, it might be time to re-assess. But 6 games into the season with a brutal out-of-conference schedule when we need to get the starters settled first makes this a bit premature.

[ricks68]

There has been a lot of chatter on the board on why Alex is getting more minutes/what's wrong with Alex/Alex is in the doghouse theme. I think the subject has been trashed within an inch of its life but I'll add my bits of insight and we'll thrash some more.

First, in focusing on Alex, I don't think we're giving proper consideration to the thought that last year, admittedly an aberration, the team did not play as a team. How many times did we watch Miles or Mason set a high screen and roll wide-open to the basket? How often did they actually get the ball? The offense was disjointed all season. Likewise on defense, we had some good individual play but poor team defense.

There were plenty of excuses. Austin was a freshman and though very talented, made freshman mistakes plus had a scorer's mentality on a team that needed him to share the ball more. Quinn was injured. Andre was sidetracked by life in general. Alex and Marshall red-shirted. Silent G couldn't get off the bench for whatever reason. Then Ryan gets hurt. Lots of moving parts, many of them new and they never jelled.

Fast forward to this year. A talented freshman is starting again and we have a healthy Quinn but an injured Seth and recovering Ryan. We're thin in the post until Marshall returns. We’ve also added a talented freshman in Amile Jefferson who has been a bit of a pleasant surprise. Tyler and Josh are still solid and play within their roles but otherwise it’s a team in flux with everybody learning new roles. Even Mason, a 4 year player, is learning how to be a truly dominant big man.

So my suspicion is that we first need to look at the development of the starting team first. These five will play heavy minutes and they need to be instinctive in their reactions to the others on the court especially in defensive sets. Mason needs to understand his new role as the leader, Quinn needs to practice dishing to the others under game conditions against various defenses, Rasheed just needs time in the rotation, Ryan is recovering from last year’s injury and Seth is learning to play through his. They need reps, lots of reps, to mesh.

I think that a major effort has been to accomplish this first and, based on early results, things are going well. The early schedule has been incredibly grueling and the game against Ohio State is not going to change that. It gets easier after that but we already have some of the answers we needed. Once we get to the soft Christmas schedule, we’ll have time to move on to developing new pieces.

Which brings us to Alex – and by comparison, Amile. Offensively, the balance has been outstanding and with 5 scorers on the floor, when we sub, we bring in defensive players – I liked the marginal utility argument. Neither Amile nor Alex are at that same level defensively yet which limits the time they spend on the court. Frankly, when they are on the court – except that odd stretch against Louisville when we had Quinn, Tyler, Josh, Amile and Alex on the court at the same time – they won’t be expected to be primary scorers. I liked the energy in that lineup but it was weird to watch.

Offensively, both are very raw. Amile has a much better touch around the basket and has been a more effective scorer. Alex is a very effective rebounder and will see time on the court when those skills are needed. That could happen as soon as the game against OSU. He has favorable size to handle a Big Ten team and the rougher style of play.

But before he sees the floor, Alex needs to get his head straight. Nobody knows exactly why Alex sat against Georgia State but it seems that it was a disciplinary issue – either team rules were broken, he wasn’t hustling in practice (which would surprise me) or grades were at issue. Message sent, hopefully message received. Now that we’ve consolidated the first team, I expect to see Coach K begin developing the secondary players in game situations.

Coach K has high expectations for Alex so I think that we’re are probably wasting some angst earlier than we need to. If we are at this same point in March where Alex is averaging 1.6 minutes a game, it might be time to re-assess. But 6 games into the season with a brutal out-of-conference schedule when we need to get the starters settled first makes this a bit premature.

My gosh. Where has all this logical thinking been hiding? While a lot of the above has appeared in pieces on the thread, it is my humble opinion that with the mention of the disjointed play we often had last season, I think that this sums up what I couldn't put down in words myself, as it was the last piece of the puzzle as far as I am concerned. Without any kind of confirmation, this is what I was thinking, but was looking for some kind of reliable confirming source. Maybe silence from those possibly in the know, speaks louder than words. So, like I said, maybe the mods can now shut this down, or if anyone wants to continue, at least retitle it. My work is done here, and thanks to you all for helping me out on this one.

(I can repay anyone on the thread with really good quality BBQ advice, as most of you know, so feel free to ask any time.):D

ricks

[Greg_Newton]

I'm kind of surprised at the timing of all this.

I was really, really disappointed after the Kentucky game, because it was pretty clear by that point that K had decided Alex was the 9th man, and soon to be 10th man in the rotation... which will mean not even in the rotation when push comes to shove. If that changes this season, it won't be for months.

It's certainly frustrating, as Alex was hyped as a near-lock to start and K himself raved about him last year, calling him a potential four-year starter and All-ACC player. I'd seen him play a fair amount and was always very impressed. Then, after all of the talk about getting longer and more athletic over the summer, we end up with the exact same lineup (sizewise) as last year, with a very talented, prototypical big SF on the bench.

I have my own theories, and it certainly looks like K is "breaking him down", as he tends to do to some players. Not crazy about the approach, but I suppose you take the good with the bad (and there's been plenty of good so far this season, in addition to the previous 30).

[coot]

There has been a lot of chatter on the board on why Alex is getting more minutes/what's wrong with Alex/Alex is in the doghouse theme. I think the subject has been trashed within an inch of its life but I'll add my bits of insight and we'll thrash some more.

First, in focusing on Alex, I don't think we're giving proper consideration to the thought that last year, admittedly an aberration, the team did not play as a team. How many times did we watch Miles or Mason set a high screen and roll wide-open to the basket? How often did they actually get the ball? The offense was disjointed all season. Likewise on defense, we had some good individual play but poor team defense.

There were plenty of excuses. Austin was a freshman and though very talented, made freshman mistakes plus had a scorer's mentality on a team that needed him to share the ball more. Quinn was injured. Andre was sidetracked by life in general. Alex and Marshall red-shirted. Silent G couldn't get off the bench for whatever reason. Then Ryan gets hurt. Lots of moving parts, many of them new and they never jelled.

Fast forward to this year. A talented freshman is starting again and we have a healthy Quinn but an injured Seth and recovering Ryan. We're thin in the post until Marshall returns. We’ve also added a talented freshman in Amile Jefferson who has been a bit of a pleasant surprise. Tyler and Josh are still solid and play within their roles but otherwise it’s a team in flux with everybody learning new roles. Even Mason, a 4 year player, is learning how to be a truly dominant big man.

So my suspicion is that we first need to look at the development of the starting team first. These five will play heavy minutes and they need to be instinctive in their reactions to the others on the court especially in defensive sets. Mason needs to understand his new role as the leader, Quinn needs to practice dishing to the others under game conditions against various defenses, Rasheed just needs time in the rotation, Ryan is recovering from last year’s injury and Seth is learning to play through his. They need reps, lots of reps, to mesh.

I think that a major effort has been to accomplish this first and, based on early results, things are going well. The early schedule has been incredibly grueling and the game against Ohio State is not going to change that. It gets easier after that but we already have some of the answers we needed. Once we get to the soft Christmas schedule, we’ll have time to move on to developing new pieces.

Which brings us to Alex – and by comparison, Amile. Offensively, the balance has been outstanding and with 5 scorers on the floor, when we sub, we bring in defensive players – I liked the marginal utility argument. Neither Amile nor Alex are at that same level defensively yet which limits the time they spend on the court. Frankly, when they are on the court – except that odd stretch against Louisville when we had Quinn, Tyler, Josh, Amile and Alex on the court at the same time – they won’t be expected to be primary scorers. I liked the energy in that lineup but it was weird to watch.

Offensively, both are very raw. Amile has a much better touch around the basket and has been a more effective scorer. Alex is a very effective rebounder and will see time on the court when those skills are needed. That could happen as soon as the game against OSU. He has favorable size to handle a Big Ten team and the rougher style of play.

But before he sees the floor, Alex needs to get his head straight. Nobody knows exactly why Alex sat against Georgia State but it seems that it was a disciplinary issue – either team rules were broken, he wasn’t hustling in practice (which would surprise me) or grades were at issue. Message sent, hopefully message received. Now that we’ve consolidated the first team, I expect to see Coach K begin developing the secondary players in game situations.

Coach K has high expectations for Alex so I think that we’re are probably wasting some angst earlier than we need to. If we are at this same point in March where Alex is averaging 1.6 minutes a game, it might be time to re-assess. But 6 games into the season with a brutal out-of-conference schedule when we need to get the starters settled first makes this a bit premature.

Excellent assessment!!! You have a great perspective. This should help everyone understand the process. Alex will be fine. I am looking forward to his success, but I will be patient in the best interest of the team. Alex will have an opportunity for a great career at Duke and become a potential NBA player if he will continue to mature/develop. Players and fans just need to let the process work itself out. Good discussion, but ultrarunner has hit it dead on.

[BD80]

Amidst the gnashing of teeth, I believe one point may be being overlooked: Coach K coaches each game with a primary goal - to win the game. A secondary goal is to best prepare the team to win the next game. That generally means playing the best players together in game conditions. Developing bench players occurs in practice.

[Indoor66]

Amidst the gnashing of teeth, I believe one point may be being overlooked: Coach K coaches each game with a primary goal - to win the game. A secondary goal is to best prepare the team to win the next game. That generally means playing the best players together in game conditions. Developing bench players occurs in practice.

Bingo! I think we have a winner here. The rest is speculation. The above is truth.

[CDu]

Amidst the gnashing of teeth, I believe one point may be being overlooked: Coach K coaches each game with a primary goal - to win the game. A secondary goal is to best prepare the team to win the next game. That generally means playing the best players together in game conditions. Developing bench players occurs in practice.

To be honest, I don't think that point has been overlooked at all in this thread. Though much speculation has occurred beyond that as well.

[Steven43]

I'm kind of surprised at the timing of all this.

I was really, really disappointed after the Kentucky game, because it was pretty clear by that point that K had decided Alex was the 9th man, and soon to be 10th man in the rotation... which will mean not even in the rotation when push comes to shove. If that changes this season, it won't be for months.

It's certainly frustrating, as Alex was hyped as a near-lock to start and K himself raved about him last year, calling him a potential four-year starter and All-ACC player. I'd seen him play a fair amount and was always very impressed. Then, after all of the talk about getting longer and more athletic over the summer, we end up with the exact same lineup (sizewise) as last year, with a very talented, prototypical big SF on the bench.

I have my own theories, and it certainly looks like K is "breaking him down", as he tends to do to some players. Not crazy about the approach, but I suppose you take the good with the bad (and there's been plenty of good so far this season, in addition to the previous 30).

While Ultrarunner made many seemingly logical points, the proof of whether or not his speculations are correct lies in this sentence: 'If we are at this same point in March where Alex is averaging 1.6 minutes a game, it might be time to re-assess'.

I tend to agree more with the tone of G. Newton's post in that the shunning of Alex is disappointing and frustrating. I have been dismayed by K's 3-guard approach, particularly when Tyler is one of the three, and especially when it is Tyler, Quinn, and Seth. Talk about a lack of size in the backcourt, my gosh. I would like Alex to come in the game whenever a 4 or 5 goes to the bench. Not that I think Alex is a 5, but he can fill in against 5's that aren't especially big, at least until Marshall begins to be worked into the backup 5 spot. Once Marshall is playing backup 5, Alex can play either the 4 or the 3, depending upon the other players on the floor. I'd like to see him getting 15-20 minutes per game starting with Ohio State. I see real flashes of talent in Murphy. I want him on the floor.

[Kedsy]

I'd like to see him getting 15-20 minutes per game starting with Ohio State. I see real flashes of talent in Murphy. I want him on the floor.

OK, you want that. An honest (not intended as snarky) question: at this point, do you think there's any legitimate chance of that happening?

[CDu]

While Ultrarunner made many seemingly logical points, the proof of whether or not his speculations are correct lies in this sentence: 'If we are at this same point in March where Alex is averaging 1.6 minutes a game, it might be time to re-assess'.

I tend to agree more with the tone of G. Newton's post in that the shunning of Alex is disappointing and frustrating. I have been dismayed by K's 3-guard approach, particularly when Tyler is one of the three, and especially when it is Tyler, Quinn, and Seth. Talk about a lack of size in the backcourt, my gosh. I would like Alex to come in the game whenever a 4 or 5 goes to the bench. Not that I think Alex is a 5, but he can fill in against 5's that aren't especially big, at least until Marshall begins to be worked into the backup 5 spot. Once Marshall is playing backup 5, Alex can play either the 4 or the 3, depending upon the other players on the floor. I'd like to see him getting 15-20 minutes per game starting with Ohio State. I see real flashes of talent in Murphy. I want him on the floor.

Wait, I'm confused. You're dismayed at the use of a 3-guard lineup, but you propose to bring in Murphy when we sub out one of our bigs? That would seem to exacerbate your dismay. We'd have a 3-guard lineup AND a SF playing either PF or C. Why would you want that?

It seems like what you really want is Murphy to play instead of Thornton (to alleviate the supposed problem of size created by a 3-guard lineup). That's a fair stance, though I'm not sure I agree that Murphy's play justifies that stance. But suggesting that Murphy get time in place of a PF or C is completely inconsistent with your stated concern about the 3-guard lineup.

[Steven43]

OK, you want that. An honest (not intended as snarky) question: at this point, do you think there's any legitimate chance of that happening?

No, I do not think there is any chance of that happening. Just wishful thinking.

[Steven43]

Wait, I'm confused. You're dismayed at the use of a 3-guard lineup, but you propose to bring in Murphy when we sub out one of our bigs? That would seem to exacerbate your dismay. We'd have a 3-guard lineup AND a SF playing either PF or C. Why would you want that?

It seems like what you really want is Murphy to play instead of Thornton (to alleviate the supposed problem of size created by a 3-guard lineup). That's a fair stance, though I'm not sure I agree that Murphy's play justifies that stance. But suggesting that Murphy get time in place of a PF or C is completely inconsistent with your stated concern about the 3-guard lineup.

I agree that my comments seem disjointed. I somewhat confusingly morphed two different ideas--my dislike of the 3-guard lineup and my desire to see Murphy play a lot more--into one post. You're correct in that I want Murphy to play more and Tyler to play less, though they don't play the same position unless K is playing Tyler what I consider to be out of position at the 3. I think Murphy can play some at the 3, 4, and 5. I'm not even sure if he's a more natural 3 or a 4. I think he has some attributes of both positions. The 5 would only be if Mason and Ryan are both out of the lineup, which is rare, but it has happened. And even then it would hopefully only be for a minute or two. I just want the guy on the floor.

[CDu]

I agree that my comments seem disjointed. I somewhat confusingly morphed two different ideas--my dislike of the 3-guard lineup and my desire to see Murphy play a lot more--into one post. You're correct in that I want Murphy to play more and Tyler to play less, though they don't play the same position unless K is playing Tyler what I consider to be out of position at the 3. I think Murphy can play some at the 3, 4, and 5. I'm not even sure if he's a more natural 3 or a 4. I think he has some attributes of both positions. The 5 would only be if Mason and Ryan are both out of the lineup, which is rare, but it has happened. And even then it would hopefully only be for a minute or two. I just want the guy on the floor.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think Thornton is more wing (either SG or SF) than PG. He's actually fairly adept at defending taller players and he's very good at team defense, whereas he doesn't bring a lot to the table as a playmaker. But he does give up size and rebounding when he plays SF. I think Murphy can play either the SF or PF spots physically. If Kelly and Mason are both out, that means that at least one of Hairston or (once healthy) Marshall is in. So in that scenario, Murphy would be playing PF with a 3-guard lineup. I don't see Murphy ever playing C for Duke.

That said, I wonder if folks are being guilty of projecting what they want Murphy to be rather than seeing what he's actually done (to this point at least). I've seen very little to this point to suggest that he should be on the floor. I deferred to Coach K's comments before the season because he would know better than me what goes on behind the scenes, but what I've seen over the last 1+ years hasn't suggested that Murphy is ready to contribute. I think people have visions of Singler dancing in their heads, but Murphy doesn't appear to be that. Maybe he develops into a productive player, and maybe it is merely that he hasn't had the chance yet. But I just haven't seen the evidence yet.

[DeBlueDevil]

I don't mean this to offend anyone as I am always up to debate anything Duke basketball related, but can someone tell me why this is even a big deal? We have just won some huge games on our way to 6-0 and #2 in the country, with a team that clearly has to be exceeding many's expectations this early in the season, and somehow we still find a way to gripe about one specific player not getting the playing time some think he should get?

Why overlook the fact that the 7 other players that have been playing consistently so far have been playing great?!?! I know techinically no one is overlooking that fact but I just say why worry for no reason?

Like I said, I know it's clearly for debate but at some point can't we all just accept that we may never know the real reason and just trust in the best coach in college basketball? We're #2 in the country people!!! Alex will emerge when it's time for him to emerge. At the end of the day it's not what we want or know or decide..it's all K. In K we trust.

[Kedsy]

We have just won some huge games on our way to 6-0 and #2 in the country, with a team that clearly has to be exceeding many's expectations this early in the season, and somehow we still find a way to gripe...

At this point last year, we'd just won some huge games on our way to 7-0 and #3 in the country, with a team that had to be exceeding many's expectations that early in the season. Trust me, we found a way to gripe, and a lot of people around here would tell you those gripes were justified.

Just sayin'.

[NSDukeFan]

...

That said, I wonder if folks are being guilty of projecting what they want Murphy to be rather than seeing what he's actually done (to this point at least). I've seen very little to this point to suggest that he should be on the floor. I deferred to Coach K's comments before the season because he would know better than me what goes on behind the scenes, but what I've seen over the last 1+ years hasn't suggested that Murphy is ready to contribute. I think people have visions of Singler dancing in their heads, but Murphy doesn't appear to be that. Maybe he develops into a productive player, and maybe it is merely that he hasn't had the chance yet. But I just haven't seen the evidence yet.

I am certainly guilty of projecting what I want Murphy to be rather than seeing what he has actually done, since I haven't seen him much in real games. What I find a bit odd, though is that he didn't look particularly out of place as a starter in China or in the exhibition games this year and showed flashes of Singler (he had a real nice catch and layup at full speed that made me think of Kyle), though I realize it is absurdly unfair to compare someone who has played 11 minutes in real games to one of the best Duke players of all-time. I don't really expect Alex to be Kyle or anyone else, but admit I did expect a bit more from someone who coach K seemed to be speaking so highly of.
I believe Alex was ranked in the top 10 of his class before he reclassified. The other reason I expected more from Alex is that he was ranked around the same as where Rasheed ended up. I also believed that it would be likely that Alex would improve more than his cohort (Rasheed, et al.) because he got to spend the year at Duke instead of returning to high school.
Because of: 1) his previous high school ranking, 2) advantage of spending a year at Duke vs. high school, 3) coach K's comments that he thought Alex could possibly a four year starter/ all-ACC player, 4) the fact that he started in multiple exhibition games, 5) his DNP vs. Georgia St. makes me think it was a disciplinary issue, I believe that talent is not what is keeping Alex from playing significant minutes and that we will see some major contributions from him this year. I am not in any way criticizing the way coach K has handled his playing time as I am ecstatic with the early season wins and I believe how Alex progresses as a player and person over the next four years is far more important than how many minutes he gets in his first few games at Duke.

[jcastranio]

... is that the somewhat unexpected emergence of Sheed, the rapid development of Quinn, and the veteran need for Seth has dictated that those players play. Who would you take out? We would like Mason and Ryan in the game as much as is safely possible. Much of summer theorizing had Sheed, Quinn, and Seth dividing time between the two guard positions, leaving the SF time available for Alex. As well as our trio of guards are playing right now, it would be difficult to cut into their time so that Alex can further develop.

If the situation were different, then K's optimal lineup might include a developing Alex in it. However, right now, the best players are on the court.

[DeBlueDevil]

At this point last year, we'd just won some huge games on our way to 7-0 and #3 in the country, with a team that had to be exceeding many's expectations that early in the season. Trust me, we found a way to gripe, and a lot of people around here would tell you those gripes were justified.

Just sayin'.

Agreed. And your point is well taken. But I don't know, last year had a little different feel to it with exactly how we were playing as a TEAM. The Maui tournament which we won with Tyler's prayer of a 3 from the corner seemed like a little different victory than this year's Atlantis tournament. The manner in which we played together and the methodical manner in which we defeated 3 very different and tough type teams this year makes me feel different from last year I was simply like "phew" when we defeated Kansas. I personally don't think last year's team gets by VCU this year. But we can compare stuff all day, I just feel theres a little more upside and a lot more positives in where we are this year.

Again that's just my opinion but I just like to focus on the now and how well we are playing together. Again, I feel it's a little different than last years team. And I'd argue that this years games are a little more significant given the questions marks entering the season and the indentity. I feel we have an identity of "together" reminds me of the most recent championship team with the similarities. Whereas last year I feel we all expected alot more then this years team entering the season. But again maybe that just my opinion and just my interpretation.

Just sayin' we can nitpick all we want but at the end of the day why not enjoy the now and let the season unfold? Especially, with OSU coming to town tomorrow night!

[Billy Dat]

The reason why Alex's playing time is drawing so much interest & discussion despite our early season success is: something we all know and don't like to admit i.e. we have seen players sit on the bench waiting for their turn which never came or came in as garbage time and eventually these players transferred. For example, Olek Czyz & Michael Gbinije. And now we are all thinking in the backs of our minds that Alex Murphy might end up with the same fate.

From a basketball perspective, if you list all of the transfers we've lost in the past 20 years, how many went on to greatness? Billy McCaffrey - and he was already a key component of a team but thought his best road to the NBA was to be a PG somewhere outside Bobby Hurley's large shadow. The others all went on to have role player roles on other teams - the same role they probably would have eventually played at Duke at schools where they got much less exposure. We don't yet know about Gbinije, but every other instance played out as described above - Palmer, Burgess, Chappell, Czyz, Thompson, Boykin, Boateng, Beard, Sweet, etc. It's been a lot better when we take transfers - McLeod, Jones, Curry and, hopefully, Hood. I'd say, aside from the wasted recruiting time, which is significant, we've come out ahead in the transfer game.


That said, I wonder if folks are being guilty of projecting what they want Murphy to be rather than seeing what he's actually done (to this point at least). I've seen very little to this point to suggest that he should be on the floor. I deferred to Coach K's comments before the season because he would know better than me what goes on behind the scenes, but what I've seen over the last 1+ years hasn't suggested that Murphy is ready to contribute. I think people have visions of Singler dancing in their heads, but Murphy doesn't appear to be that. Maybe he develops into a productive player, and maybe it is merely that he hasn't had the chance yet. But I just haven't seen the evidence yet.

If K had never made such bold statements about the kid, none of this alarm would be happening. When people say they see the talent, what are they basing it on? Was there a video feed from the Finnish National Team games this summer that I am not aware of? Is it the Pro-Am? Is it his High School games when he was 16? Is it pick-up on Central Campus?

[MChambers]

If I'm right, before Alex reclassified, he was ranked in the class of 2012 about as highly as Rasheed Sulaimon.

Maybe we are all guiltly of the same bias discussed in the thread about polls: we think Alex must be good, based on that ranking (and, to be fair, based on what Coach K has said), so we think he should play.

I wish Alex would play, but I have learned to trust Coach K on these things.

I'd also like to point out that Alex's brother, Erik, had a bit of a slow start at Floriday, but has become a good college player.

[CDu]

If K had never made such bold statements about the kid, none of this alarm would be happening. When people say they see the talent, what are they basing it on? Was there a video feed from the Finnish National Team games this summer that I am not aware of? Is it the Pro-Am? Is it his High School games when he was 16? Is it pick-up on Central Campus?

Exactly. K's comments (and the nebulous junior-year ranking of Murphy around 10-15) has skewed opinions of Murphy's performance at Duke. Because nothing he's done thus far on the court at Duke has been noteworthy (neither that good nor that bad).

That's not to say that he doesn't have talent. I'm completely agnostic on that issue, but hopeful that he has talent that will shine through eventually. It's just that he hasn't done anything yet (in my opinion) to warrant most folks saying they've seen the talent and/or they're certain the talent is there.

[Kedsy]

If I'm right, before Alex reclassified, he was ranked in the class of 2012 about as highly as Rasheed Sulaimon.

Maybe we are all guiltly of the same bias discussed in the thread about polls: we think Alex must be good, based on that ranking (and, to be fair, based on what Coach K has said), so we think he should play.

Alex's pre-reclassification rating is certainly something that people seem to hang their hats on, but that's a little bit of a mystery as well. First of all, my recollection is he was generally in the higher teens (15 to 18) rather than the 10 to 12 range some people are saying here. That may sound like a small increment, but quite often that's a really big difference in the readiness of a recruit.

More puzzling to me, though, is the idea that the 15th (or so) ranked junior was only the 49th ranked senior. On one level it seems to make sense, because high school seniors are more physically advanced than juniors, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, when you see a guy re-classifying these days, you generally don't see that sort of quantum downgrade. Is it possible that the more recruiting experts saw of Alex his junior/final high school year the less impressed they were with his game? Is it possible he was due for a major downgrade even if he'd stayed another year in high school? Because if he was really the 30th ranked recruit in his original class, many of us probably wouldn't have had nearly as high expectations as we did.

[MChambers]

Alex's pre-reclassification rating is certainly something that people seem to hang their hats on, but that's a little bit of a mystery as well. First of all, my recollection is he was generally in the higher teens (15 to 18) rather than the 10 to 12 range some people are saying here. That may sound like a small increment, but quite often that's a really big difference in the readiness of a recruit.

More puzzling to me, though, is the idea that the 15th (or so) ranked junior was only the 49th ranked senior. On one level it seems to make sense, because high school seniors are more physically advanced than juniors, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, when you see a guy re-classifying these days, you generally don't see that sort of quantum downgrade. Is it possible that the more recruiting experts saw of Alex his junior/final high school year the less impressed they were with his game? Is it possible he was due for a major downgrade even if he'd stayed another year in high school? Because if he was really the 30th ranked recruit in his original class, many of us probably wouldn't have had nearly as high expectations as we did.

All good points. Of course, subtle distinctions between the 12th highest rated recruit and the 18th highest rated recruit are lost on many fans, even the sophisticated ones found here.

Anyway, I'm content to rely on Coach K to make the decisions about playing time. I'd love to see Alex play more, but if he doesn't I'm not going to gnash my teeth.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't have a beef with Alex not playing if he doesn't deserve the PT. What does trouble me is that going into this season I thought that Alex would be a key player to this year's team. For those with short memories, we spent a lot of time complaining about the lack of versatility (particularly on the defensive end) and lack of a true wing on last year's team. My view was that Alex was a potential solution to those problems in that, if he lived up to his billing, he could serve the role of "athletic wing" that could guard bigger guys (e.g., DeShaun Thomas - query who guards him tomorrow night), rebound, and also guard multiple positions. Presumably Coach K shared that view, naming him the presumptive starter.

Now, it may be that Sulaimon the Magnificent is such a better defender than Rivers, particularly with his long wing-span, that he can for intents and purposes fulfill that role. And I don't begrudge K for not playing Murphy now. However, if Murphy (or Jefferson) doesn't crack the rotation in ACC play -- which as of right now it looks like he probably won't, but who knows -- my concern, being the Debbie Downer that I am, is that we will again find ourselves in March wondering why we have a team full of guards and big men, but nothing in between.

This is one of the reasons why I can't let myself get overly carried away with the Atlantis win (along with the absence of Dieng, the fact that we always tend to win these early season tournaments, and the aforementioned pessimism). The team is better this year, no doubt, most notably because of the improvement of Quinn and Plumlee (Curry and Kelly look pretty much the same to me), but I think there is still a hole on the wing.

[Kedsy]

(e.g., DeShaun Thomas - query who guards him tomorrow night)

Possibly the same guy who guarded Alex Poythress in the Kentucky game?


(Curry and Kelly look pretty much the same to me)

Really? To me, both Seth and Ryan are playing way better than they did last year (although obviously Ryan is not shooting as well as he did last season and hopefully that will come around).

[ArtVandelay]

Possibly the same guy who guarded Alex Poythress in the Kentucky game?

Right, and we saw Poythress have a big game. Thomas is the better player (right now, anyway). I'm just pointing out where we might struggle.


Really? To me, both Seth and Ryan are playing way better than they did last year (although obviously Ryan is not shooting as well as he did last season and hopefully that will come around).

Interesting. To be clear, I am basing this strictly on the eye test. Kelly has shown a bit more aggressiveness in driving the ball, but otherwise seems to bring to the table the same nice mid-range game and streaky 3-pt shooting. What I see out of Curry, leaving aside the KY game in which he was lights out, is mostly what I saw last year - he will hit threes and can drive a little bit, but has a hard time finishing in traffic off the bounce. Always has struggled to defend dribble penetration.

I recognize this is a bit off-topic, and I actually considered starting a new thread about the lack of a true wing. Mods, feel free to move if needs be.

[dcar1985]

It's funny that the same people who were "hanging there hat" on the fact that Alex was ranked top 15 during his junior year and will automatically be some stud are now disregarding it just as quickly...just as its been ignored that Alex would've been a 5th yr senior and didn't technically come to Duke early.

Side note: Mitch McGary was the 2nd ranked player in the country before his senior year.

I never saw much of Alex in HS but everything I've seen since he came to Duke in terms of real game action has been less than impressive. Maybe he'll put it together somewhere down the line, maybe he won't but unfair expectations have definitely been placed upon him.

Someone else said it but if you actually look at his final ranking before coming to Duke which was 40 something then most wouldn't have such an issue with him not getting PT.

Then there's the hope of him being Kyle 2.0...he's not, let him run his own race I expect Alex to contribute eventually but those expecting this All ACC lottery pick might be setting themselves up for disappointment.

[Monmouth77]

Possibly the same guy who guarded Alex Poythress in the Kentucky game?



Really? To me, both Seth and Ryan are playing way better than they did last year (although obviously Ryan is not shooting as well as he did last season and hopefully that will come around).

I have to agree that all three seniors are playing much better than last year (with the aforementioned exception of Kelly's shooting which is off his career averages and should improve).

What jumps out at me most, besides the improved team defense, which we all hoped and believed would be a point of emphasis in the offseason, is that we now have much improved team ball handling and ball movement, and much improved ball pressure on D.

Last year we weren't just missing a big wing-- though it would always be nice to have that versatile 6' 8" SF of Duke yore, who can do it all (like some of us believed Murphy would be)-- we suffered from bad ball movement on offense, and insufficient ball pressure on defense.

In my memory we were constantly running screens for shooters, finding ways to isolate Austin, and making bad, telegraphed entry passes to the bigs who were not always well positioned to finish underneath.

My observation this year is that with Cook at point and Sulaimon on the wing, and with improved ballhandling from Curry (and even Kelly), we have multiple guys who can get to the rim, and much quicker ball movement around the perimeter. Mason is finishing better, and creating his own shots, but he's also getting the ball in better positions to score.

Last year, we gave big minutes to guys (Dawkins, Thornton, last year's version of Curry to some extent) who could not aggressively or effectively attack the rim. We were primarily a shooting team. Sometimes we pounded the ball into the floor for 20 seconds, then looked for the best open shot. I think that has changed.

On the defensive end, at least so far, we've been able to get in the passing lanes and create havoc the way better Duke teams have done it in the past. We're not the '92 or '99 team out there turning over the opposition with waves of 6'6" burners, but Curry, Sulaimon and Cook look pretty good pressuring the ball and jumping the passing lanes.

So to me, while I suppose I wish we had a taller wing who might more naturally guard someone like Poythress or Deshaun Thomas, I'll definitely settle for the combination of speed, ballhandling and defensive pressure we've been seeing so far.

It's fun basketball to watch.

[ChillinDuke]

...

This is one of the reasons why I can't let myself get overly carried away with the Atlantis win (along with the absence of Dieng, the fact that we always tend to win these early season tournaments, and the aforementioned pessimism). The team is better this year, no doubt, most notably because of the improvement of Quinn and Plumlee (Curry and Kelly look pretty much the same to me), but I think there is still a hole on the wing.

Your concern is valid, and I'm not sure we'll get a firm answer. But to give you some optimism, I would argue that we are much improved top to bottom. Plumlee is unquestionably looking improved. Curry definitely looks improved to me. Kelly, I think, looks a little better...but call it a wash for the sake of conservatism. No doubt Cook looks improved but more importantly better than Thornton looked at this point last year. And, perhaps most importantly/interestingly, Sulaimon is giving 2011 Rivers a run for his money. I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall Austin struggling in the first weeks/month of the season to the point where he came off the benched for at least one game. With much less fanfare, Sulaimon has not only provided way-more-than-adequate scoring, he has provided great defense, all within the confines of the system.

Indeed, I absolutely believe we are ahead of where we were at this point last year. So going back to your original concern, I'm not sure it even matters. At least not yet.


Really? To me, both Seth and Ryan are playing way better than they did last year (although obviously Ryan is not shooting as well as he did last season and hopefully that will come around).

I think so. The specifics get fuzzy to me as the months go by, but my gut says Seth is playing improved and so is Ryan. Although I'd say Seth's improvement has been more evident (eye test and statistics) than Ryan's.

- Chillin

[ArtVandelay]

And, perhaps most importantly/interestingly, Sulaimon is giving 2011 Rivers a run for his money. I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall Austin struggling in the first weeks/month of the season to the point where he came off the benched for at least one game. With much less fanfare, Sulaimon has not only provided way-more-than-adequate scoring, he has provided great defense, all within the confines of the system.

This last sentence is definitely true. It's a rare freshman that can start at Duke from Day 1 and fit seamlessly into K's system, such that you forget that you're watching a freshman out there. Rasheed is one of them. Kyrie and Austin were different cases, because both were such special talents that they became the focal point of the offense. I think Sulaimon's early play reminds me more of Singler in the way he "felt" like a natural fit for the team from the beginning. I'll gladly sign up for that.

Back to the Austin issue, whether Sulaimon ends up being an improvement over Rivers is something that I'm sure people will debate ad nauseum as this season unfolds. I happen to think that Austin got a bad rap and had a great season for a freshman last year. I think having Austin Rivers on a team with a true PG, an elite big man, and a deep threat 3 point shooter would be truly dangerous, at least on the offensive end. The question is whether the defensive hit you take more than offsets the offense.

[OldPhiKap]

I would love to see Alex get 15-20 minutes a game.

I think Mason, Ryan and Seth are all legitimate all-ACC team candidates and would love to see them get 35 minutes per game each.

Really love Quinn. Wished he never came out.

Rasheed is real deal, could be freshman of the year if he gets about 30 minutes a game.

Best defender is Tyler, need him for shut down duty a little more than half the game.

Big Jiggy fan, too. Wish he played about 15-20 per as well.

Amile is very slick, about 10 minutes a game and he will really contribute come March.

Really, really look forward to seeing Marshall play. 5-10 mpg to star would be fun.

How many minutes have I used up?

[uh_no]

I would love to see Alex get 15-20 minutes a game.

I think Mason, Ryan and Seth are all legitimate all-ACC team candidates and would love to see them get 35 minutes per game each.

Really love Quinn. Wished he never came out.

Rasheed is real deal, could be freshman of the year if he gets about 30 minutes a game.

Best defender is Tyler, need him for shut down duty a little more than half the game.

Big Jiggy fan, too. Wish he played about 15-20 per as well.

Amile is very slick, about 10 minutes a game and he will really contribute come March.

Really, really look forward to seeing Marshall play. 5-10 mpg to star would be fun.

How many minutes have I used up?


242-257 minutes...so hopefully we go to double OT every game!

[MChambers]

242-257 minutes...so hopefully we go to double OT every game!

Then we'd have to start a thread about how our players are tired from too much playing time! (I expect that thread will start again in January, in any event.)

[Dukeblue91]

I don't know about all the ratings of Alex's re qualifications but over the summer he played really well internationally and more then held his own minus FT shooting.
Having said all that, I'm more interested in the development of Amile right now as he is a matchup nightmare for any opposing team we play and he could be a game changer with a few additional minutes in the right games.

I think Alex will come along and coach K needs to be trusted on this, he does not say things just to be talking like other coaches and he gave a huge thumps up on Alex so it will come.
I'm positive that there are good reasons why he has played very little and when looking back on the games we played it was important to win and to get our main 6 players to gel before tinkering.

I'm hopping that we will see a little more of Amile tonight against OH state for defensive purposes.

[freshmanjs]

does anyone have a link to these quotes from Coach K about Alex being a 4 year starter, etc? I can't find them and don't remember ever seeing them except as referenced on this board.

[NSDukeFan]

I would love to see Alex get 15-20 minutes a game.

I think Mason, Ryan and Seth are all legitimate all-ACC team candidates and would love to see them get 35 minutes per game each.

Really love Quinn. Wished he never came out.

Rasheed is real deal, could be freshman of the year if he gets about 30 minutes a game.

Best defender is Tyler, need him for shut down duty a little more than half the game.

Big Jiggy fan, too. Wish he played about 15-20 per as well.

Amile is very slick, about 10 minutes a game and he will really contribute come March.

Really, really look forward to seeing Marshall play. 5-10 mpg to star would be fun.

How many minutes have I used up?

I think Amile and Marshall may deserve more minutes than that, but besides that I think your minute projections look very reasonable to me. I would also add that if Rasheed, Murphy, Hairston, Thornton and Marshall show the improvement that I hope the can, their minutes can increase as well. I think if our guys get these kind of minutes, we will have the deepest team in the country. Unfortunately, math may have something to say about it.

[accfanfrom1970]

I think Amile and Marshall may deserve more minutes than that, but besides that I think your minute projections look very reasonable to me. I would also add that if Rasheed, Murphy, Hairston, Thornton and Marshall show the improvement that I hope the can, their minutes can increase as well. I think if our guys get these kind of minutes, we will have the deepest team in the country. Unfortunately, math may have something to say about it.

Actually, those estimates leave no time for Amile, Marshall or Alex....

[gumbomoop]

does anyone have a link to these quotes from Coach K about Alex being a 4 year starter, etc? I can't find them and don't remember ever seeing them except as referenced on this board.

I'm pretty sure one of the sources is an episode of K's weekly tv show, "Inside Basketball with Coach K," which is has been shown the past couple of seasons on FoxSportsNet [DirecTV ch 646], Sat morns.

It's invariably interesting, usually "inside bball," as its title promises. Unlike most coach-shows, it's never simply a rehash of the previous week's games. It's thematic.

Anyhow, on most shows, K or one of the coaches will focus a bit on a particular player. So I [am pretty sure I] remember his - specifically, K's - praise of Alex and a comment that he "could be" a 4-year starter.

I've briefly looked to see if there's a site that provides old transcripts, but can't find yet.

[scottdude8]

I'm pretty sure one of the sources is an episode of K's weekly tv show, "Inside Basketball with Coach K," which is has been shown the past couple of seasons on FoxSportsNet [DirecTV ch 646], Sat morns.

It's invariably interesting, usually "inside bball," as its title promises. Unlike most coach-shows, it's never simply a rehash of the previous week's games. It's thematic.

Anyhow, on most shows, K or one of the coaches will focus a bit on a particular player. So I [am pretty sure I] remember his - specifically, K's - praise of Alex and a comment that he "could be" a 4-year starter.

I've briefly looked to see if there's a site that provides old transcripts, but can't find yet.

I was personally at multiple press conferences as a Chronicle reporter in which K said those exact words. I don't have the transcripts on me either, but rest assured it happened.

Also, what seems to be absent from some of this conversation (at least what I've seen) is that Murphy WANTED to redshirt last year—he came a year early with the expressed desire to redshirt, thinking a year of practice at Duke would benefit him more than a year of dominating high-schoolers. Whether or not that was the right decision (it may not have been with what is happening this year) make sure you don't blame the program for the decision. See: http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/murphy-plumlee-make-most-redshirt-year

[jimsumner]

I was personally at multiple press conferences as a Chronicle reporter in which K said those exact words. I don't have the transcripts on me either, but rest assured it happened.

Also, what seems to be absent from some of this conversation (at least what I've seen) is that Murphy WANTED to redshirt last year—he came a year early with the expressed desire to redshirt, thinking a year of practice at Duke would benefit him more than a year of dominating high-schoolers. Whether or not that was the right decision (it may not have been with what is happening this year) make sure you don't blame the program for the decision. See: http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/murphy-plumlee-make-most-redshirt-year

Scott is correct. K and his assistants have been quite effusive in their praise for Murphy, in a variety of contexts. Which makes his current malaise all the more curious.

[FerryFor50]

Scott is correct. K and his assistants have been quite effusive in their praise for Murphy, in a variety of contexts. Which makes his current malaise all the more curious.

Do you think the intensity of the schedule this early in the season has contributed to his lack of PT? Perhaps we'll see more of Alex after OSU?

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Do you think the intensity of the schedule this early in the season has contributed to his lack of PT? Perhaps we'll see more of Alex after OSU?


Generally I would accept this as a reasonable excuse except for the fact that he got 0 minutes against Georgia St which has been so far our easiest matchup.

I honestly don't know why we're still talking about this. Alex has fallen on tough times more than likely because of his defense, but he'll crawl out of it eventually. In due time. In the meantime, we play with the guys who give us a chance to win, especially with such a difficult early schedule.

[CDu]

Do you think the intensity of the schedule this early in the season has contributed to his lack of PT? Perhaps we'll see more of Alex after OSU?

It would, except that Murphy is also behind Jefferson in the SF pecking order so far. That would suggest that even against inferior teams Murphy would get limited minutes. That's evidenced by the DNP against GSU and the 6 minutes against FGCU. So there's more going on than just tough opponents. It appears that Murphy is simply being outplayed in practice by Thornton, Sulaimon, and Jefferson right now, and Coach K only has need for 2-3 bodies at SF.

[Channing]

Didn't Alex suffer a nasty concussion at Tue beginning of last year. I haven't heard anyone talk about it, but I wonder if Alex has been a little hesitant with the ball or on defense with the trauma that caused the concussion in the back of his mind. Playing tentatively in practice would certainly explain limited playing time.

[greybeard]

There seems no question that Rasheed's not only eaten minutes, but that he also is impacting the nature of play on both ends, and also in transition, again both ends. There is an attacking, dangerous edge that Duke presents ever more since Cook has started to show some of what he brings. Cook changes alot, not just in taking a big chunk of minutes. He provides something to this team that took away some of Smith's game in 2010. This year's team is in the process of developing it, the attacking, up tempo, I added attacking, that everybody, including, me, is seeing. Difficult to put words around. K said what he was waiting for but didn't see last year was a growth spurt coming up to and through mid season and flowing through to the end. I think this year is going to be quite different.

Back to Alex. The most important guy who has not yet reached where the heights that present for him in this new style of play is Ryan. He has been finding spaces inside the defense, is presenting as a great receiver and will get better at both timing his runs and positioning himself to smack the defense quickly. He is moving forward in this new role each game, and will reach a point that is, I believe, going to make things very, very exciting. I say "when," not "if," because I feel it coming.

So what does this have to do with Alex? I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps K wants Ryan out there more than he might otherwise so that this piece of the mosacic can develop, not just Ryan's play, but the ability of the rest of the team to play off it. And K and his assistants might want time to figure out how Ryan's mid range game fits with the variety of cominations that might keep Duke playing up tempo when Mason is not on the court.

That brings me to Jefferson. I haven't seen much of him but can't help but notice those arms, and his ability to get around. I Have a feeling that K not only sees versatility on defense, but also a fuy who can block shots, rebound and get out on the break. I'm not able to speak to his hands and abilities to catch and score the ball, but Cook will get it to him real nice if K has plans for Jefferson to give a whole different dimension to the offensive game. Like I've just mentioned, Jefferson might also be a shot blocker, particularly coming from off the ball aka Kelly. If K sees any of these things in Jefferson, there are many big combinations that K could present. I have not a clue how the third Plumlee fits with the styles that this five-headede array of bigs K might be seeing as possible, but this might explain why he is giving Jefferson the minutes he is receiving that Alex is not. Also, there is next year to think about. With Cook and Rasheed, running would work for me. Like I said, I know next to nothing about Jefferson, but those arms, and he does seem to slither by people in a crowd.

As for taking minutes from Tyler, I think that he contributes too much. With Cook now putting it in gear, K has been finding ways to get him on the floor. I do not think that that will change.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Didn't Alex suffer a nasty concussion at Tue beginning of last year. I haven't heard anyone talk about it, but I wonder if Alex has been a little hesitant with the ball or on defense with the trauma that caused the concussion in the back of his mind. Playing tentatively in practice would certainly explain limited playing time.


Ehh, I think that'd be a little far fetched. Concussions are pretty rare in basketball. Unless you're getting upended going up for a layup or something and slamming your head into the ground, how are concussions going to happen playing hoops? There are guys playing college football that are getting concussions all the time and they're always itching to get back in after. I highly doubt one year after the fact he is still havng mental affects.

[gam7]

Ehh, I think that'd be a little far fetched. Concussions are pretty rare in basketball. Unless you're getting upended going up for a layup or something and slamming your head into the ground, how are concussions going to happen playing hoops? There are guys playing college football that are getting concussions all the time and they're always itching to get back in after. I highly doubt one year after the fact he is still havng mental affects.

Concussions may be rarer in basketball, but I think the long-term effects can be tough to predict. Just ask Justin Morneau, Sidney Crosby or Zach Peters, a former teammate of Julius Randle and freshman at KU who apparently has suffered multiple concussions and is now leaving Kansas.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8681505/freshman-zach-peters-leaving-kansas-jayhawks

Having said that, I doubt this has been an issue for Alex - he hasn't seemed tentative to me in the few minutes he's played (diving on the floor, trying to rebound and block shots in traffic, etc.), but I don't have any inside knowledge on the severity/long-term consequences of his concussion or his reaction to it.

[ricks68]

Scott is correct. K and his assistants have been quite effusive in their praise for Murphy, in a variety of contexts. Which makes his current malaise all the more curious.

Ok, Jim, thanks for chiming in. Am I picking up correctly that Alex has not been putting forth adequate effort for Coach K, as opposed to possibly being the "wrong piece of the puzzle (Coach K's opinion)" for the moment, for the reason he is not playing? The mention of the word "malaise" by you is very telling to me, and would explain the reason for Alex not getting more time. If this is the case, I hope the reasons for this "malaise" gets worked out soon for Alex's benefit.

From what I have been picking up from the reliable sources on the board, Alex had been a hard working, talented, future star (of magnitude yet to be determined) in the making for us. I trust Coach K's ability to choose quality people to be members of his "family". No one is perfect, and while he has missed on some, he has been better than pretty darn good at it. In time, I trust Alex will conquer his malaise, and return to his former self------------if that is the problem.

ricks

[ricks68]

There seems no question that Rasheed's not only eaten minutes, but that he also is impacting the nature of play on both ends, and also in transition, again both ends. There is an attacking, dangerous edge that Duke presents ever more since Cook has started to show some of what he brings. Cook changes alot, not just in taking a big chunk of minutes. He provides something to this team that took away some of Smith's game in 2010. This year's team is in the process of developing it, the attacking, up tempo, I added attacking, that everybody, including, me, is seeing. Difficult to put words around. K said what he was waiting for but didn't see last year was a growth spurt coming up to and through mid season and flowing through to the end. I think this year is going to be quite different.

Back to Alex. The most important guy who has not yet reached where the heights that present for him in this new style of play is Ryan. He has been finding spaces inside the defense, is presenting as a great receiver and will get better at both timing his runs and positioning himself to smack the defense quickly. He is moving forward in this new role each game, and will reach a point that is, I believe, going to make things very, very exciting. I say "when," not "if," because I feel it coming.

So what does this have to do with Alex? I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps K wants Ryan out there more than he might otherwise so that this piece of the mosacic can develop, not just Ryan's play, but the ability of the rest of the team to play off it. And K and his assistants might want time to figure out how Ryan's mid range game fits with the variety of cominations that might keep Duke playing up tempo when Mason is not on the court.

That brings me to Jefferson. I haven't seen much of him but can't help but notice those arms, and his ability to get around. I Have a feeling that K not only sees versatility on defense, but also a fuy who can block shots, rebound and get out on the break. I'm not able to speak to his hands and abilities to catch and score the ball, but Cook will get it to him real nice if K has plans for Jefferson to give a whole different dimension to the offensive game. Like I've just mentioned, Jefferson might also be a shot blocker, particularly coming from off the ball aka Kelly. If K sees any of these things in Jefferson, there are many big combinations that K could present. I have not a clue how the third Plumlee fits with the styles that this five-headede array of bigs K might be seeing as possible, but this might explain why he is giving Jefferson the minutes he is receiving that Alex is not. Also, there is next year to think about. With Cook and Rasheed, running would work for me. Like I said, I know next to nothing about Jefferson, but those arms, and he does seem to slither by people in a crowd.

As for taking minutes from Tyler, I think that he contributes too much. With Cook now putting it in gear, K has been finding ways to get him on the floor. I do not think that that will change.

Grey, I picked up the change in Ryan's style of play this year, also. Every game he seems to be gaining more and more confidence at moving faster and quicker with the ball. He's dribbling more, controlling the ball well (especially for a big man), making more moves, etc. with more positive effects. I think that this new, faster tempo for him is what has been affecting his shot, however. His foul shooting is off, I think, because it appears that he may be still learning to calm down from his new more up tempo pace of play prior to his stint at the line. Same for his outside shooting. He may be getting to his spot more quickly before his shot now, and needs to just stop for a split second to get set before releasing. You are the expert on this, what's your take?

As far as Amile is concerned, I think Coach K sees a really, really energetic, versitile, quality gem of a player here. He is good, and has so many years ahead of him to fill out and get stronger. He could turn into a beast, in my opinion. (Check out the DukeBluePlanet video where the team's chef says that he is the biggest eater.):)

ricks

[Festus]

Today's Observer has a good read on Alex which fits into this discussion. Since I rarely use the computer other than reading on topics of interest, you will have to forgive me for not making this easy but here is the link: http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/30/1220926?sac=fo.sports. Sounds like the young man's head is in the right place and I expect he will be able to contribute as the season progresses.

[dyedwab]

So what does this have to do with Alex? I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps K wants Ryan out there more than he might otherwise so that this piece of the mosacic can develop, not just Ryan's play, but the ability of the rest of the team to play off it. And K and his assistants might want time to figure out how Ryan's mid range game fits with the variety of cominations that might keep Duke playing up tempo when Mason is not on the court.

Though K was not as explicit as this in his reasoning, I believe that he mentioned in a post game press-conference at Atlantis that getting Ryan going and playing well was one of the key goals of how the minutes have been distributed so far.

[Billy Dat]

Today's Observer has a good read on Alex which fits into this discussion. Since I rarely use the computer other than reading on topics of interest, you will have to forgive me for not making this easy but here is the link: http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/30/1220926?sac=fo.sports. Sounds like the young man's head is in the right place and I expect he will be able to contribute as the season progresses.

I just read this article and it should serve as the definitive answer to this thread. Everyone should read it. Occam's razor - he's not playing because K doesn't think he's better then the guys that are playing.

It really does, though, present some insight into how demanding it is to be part of the program. Article after article, year after year, you hear talk about the analysis that goes into the look that these players have on their face. It sounds like everyone's countenance is scrutinized like the Zapruder film on a daily basis. That's a ton of pressure on a teenager, especially one who seems to get caught up inside his own head, as Murphy seems to do, as he says himself in this article. A big part of what K seems to do, which also seems to be a core of military training, is to get out of your own head and follow your instincts. He also preaches the "look" thing, which I assume is sort of like the idea that if you force yourself to smile, eventually you'll be in a better mood, but that if you look mad or down or sad, it has a negative impact on you and those around you. The bigger picture is having control over your emotions, channeling them in the right way. It's easy to forget the pressure these kids are under being part of the Duke program.

[BD80]

I just read this article and it should serve as the definitive answer to this thread. Everyone should read it. Occam's razor - he's not playing because K doesn't think he's better then the guys that are playing.

It really does, though, present some insight into how demanding it is to be part of the program. ... A big part of what K seems to do, which also seems to be a core of military training, is to get out of your own head and follow your instincts. He also preaches the "look" thing, which I assume is sort of like the idea that if you force yourself to smile, eventually you'll be in a better mood, but that if you look mad or down or sad, it has a negative impact on you and those around you. The bigger picture is having control over your emotions, channeling them in the right way. It's easy to forget the pressure these kids are under being part of the Duke program.

I think you're reading too much into the "positive look." I think the issue is more Alex not getting down on himself, and staying focused on what he is doing on the court.

It is not so much a "positive look" they are looking for, but the absence of the look of frustration or distraction. The "positive look" for Alex may be a teaching device to help him stay focused

[COYS]

I think you're reading too much into the "positive look." I think the issue is more Alex not getting down on himself, and staying focused on what he is doing on the court.

It is not so much a "positive look" they are looking for, but the absence of the look of frustration or distraction. The "positive look" for Alex may be a teaching device to help him stay focused

To this end, i thought his body language has been excellent from what I've seen of him. He certainly *looks* focused on the bench and in team huddles. He also looks excited when his team does well, regardless of whether he's played or not. I still think that he'll have a role to play this season.

[Billy Dat]

I think you're reading too much into the "positive look." I think the issue is more Alex not getting down on himself, and staying focused on what he is doing on the court.

It is not so much a "positive look" they are looking for, but the absence of the look of frustration or distraction. The "positive look" for Alex may be a teaching device to help him stay focused

"When I don't believe in myself, I tend to get a little nervous on the court, freeze up a little bit, think too much," Murphy said. "When I do that, I tend to make little mistakes you wouldn't make if you're just out there playing freely. I think I'm doing a better job of always having a positive look on my face and doing whatever I can do, whether it's two minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes on the court, trying to help this team win."

I don't know, man. As a middle age adult I am often told by people around me that the look on my face is different than what I might be feeling at the moment. I don't think it's that easy a thing to control. Yet, here is a kid in the crucible that is the Duke Men's Basketball Program being asked to be aware of his facial expressions at all times. I don't disagree with that level of scrutiny, it's part of the lofty standards that have made the Duke program what it is. I am simply taking a step back and being aware of the fact that those who do wind up on the court with meaningful playing time at Duke are an extremely elite, barely-adult fraternity who temper, not melt, under the intense heat emanating from the maestro.

[roywhite]

I don't know, man. As a middle age adult I am often told by people around me that the look on my face is different than what I might be feeling at the moment. I don't think it's that easy a thing to control. Yet, here is a kid in the crucible that is the Duke Men's Basketball Program being asked to be aware of his facial expressions at all times. I don't disagree with that level of scrutiny, it's part of the lofty standards that have made the Duke program what it is. I am simply taking a step back and being aware of the fact that those who do wind up on the court with meaningful playing time at Duke are an extremely elite, barely-adult fraternity who temper, not melt, under the intense heat emanating from the maestro.

K's approach does not necessarily work for everyone.

I thought Shav, for example, did not develop well under K and might have done better at another school. (yeah, I realize he had injuries, etc.)

I'm rooting for Alex, for him and for the development of our team.

Thank goodness we're back on topic after all that Ohio State game talk. :)

[Saratoga2]

This probably fits the Phase II discussion, but it needs to be said that we are going into a period where we face many weaker opponents. We also really need to get Seth through his leg injury, since he was so valuable throughout the tournament.

As a result, Both Alex and Amile should see far more opportunities to play meaningful minutes. Add to that the need to get Marshall going, probably a slow process, and you have a key team development process in Phase II. During December the exams come along with the holidays so there are only 5 games in 30 days. There will be a lot of practice opportunities as well so the coaching staff can coach up these kids and concentrate on developing team depth, while still winning games.

Just for my interest, what games will make up phase II? Will it be until the start of the ACC schedule?

[mapei]

Please forgive what must seem like a dumb comment. This has been the most popular thread on the board over the last week, and I'm not understanding why. Maybe it's because I didn't follow Murphy's recruiting, but to me he's basically a freshman (albeit not a "true" one) whom none of us has seen play. He has three more years after this one, unless he becomes good enough to jump to the NBA. Why should it bother anyone that he isn't getting much playing time as a first-year player, especially when we're looking like the best team in the country? I don't understand why I should be concerned or even thinking about it.

[sagegrouse]

Please forgive what must seem like a dumb comment. This has been the most popular thread on the board over the last week, and I'm not understanding why. Maybe it's because I didn't follow Murphy's recruiting, but to me he's basically a freshman (albeit not a "true" one) whom none of us has seen play. He has three more years after this one, unless he becomes good enough to jump to the NBA. Why should it bother anyone that he isn't getting much playing time as a first-year player, especially when we're looking like the best team in the country? I don't understand why I should be concerned or even thinking about it.

I didn't start the thread, but I did add to the fire.

First, all fans want to see the new players. The most overrated players are freshmen and the most underrated players are upperclassmen who have sat on the bench for a year or more.

Second, as Al Featherston says, we have a six-and-a-half man rotation. Yert we have nine mostly healthy players who are highly regarded. What's going on?

Third, K himself projected Murphy as a starter -- and that was just this summer.

I have come to the conclusion that we are seeing a new and even more intense Coach K, determined to do well this season, and right the ship that seemed to founder at the end of last season. Therefore, his impossibly high standards have become even higher. No doubt, his incredible national team experiences, seeing the best players in the world improve significantly by playing with each other, have fueled his ambition for 2013.

sagegrouse

[mapei]

Yes, just saw your comment in the Phase I thread to the same effect, and it makes a lot of sense. Maybe eventually I'll get interested in Murphy, but for now he's just a name to me on a team that is doing extremely well so far without him.

[m g]

Why should it bother anyone that he isn't getting much playing time as a first-year player, especially when we're looking like the best team in the country?

He was rated in the top 10 in his class and has started multiple preseason games. Coach K has praised him highly and made comments that suggested he would play more. It's not so much a bother, as an aspect of the team that is interesting to some fans.


I don't understand why I should be concerned or even thinking about it.

It's relevant to the team. I don't think it detracts from anyone's enthusiasm about Duke's performance this year. This is a board about Duke basketball, and Alex Murphy is on the Duke basketball team.

Classic DBR - people suggesting that because they aren't interested in something about the team, others shouldn't discuss it either.

[mapei]

Classic DBR - people suggesting that because they aren't interested in something about the team, others shouldn't discuss it either.

No, you misunderstand. I was sincere in wondering what the reasons were so I could take them into account. I haven't followed recruiting or preseason as much as many of you have.

[OldPhiKap]

Thank goodness we're back on topic after all that Ohio State game talk. :)

spit out my Cheerio's on this.

If only K had said something about everyone running their own race in the past. Then, maybe, we would understand.

[mattmcbreen]

Yes, just saw your comment in the Phase I thread to the same effect, and it makes a lot of sense. Maybe eventually I'll get interested in Murphy, but for now he's just a name to me on a team that is doing extremely well so far without him.

I agree with you. For now, Murphy's lack of playing time is a non issue. Our schedule gets a lot easier down the road, so we should see him get some big minutes over the next few weeks, along with Amile. The way I see it so far, Alex is currently in a tough spot. The rotation is pretty much set, and with these big games over the past few weeks there really wasn't much chance to crack it. I think Coach K's focus was to get through this endurance run and evaluate when the dust settles. I would expect Alex to get serious minutes against Delaware, and throughout the rest of the non-conference schedule. If he doesn't, then it is a different situation altogether.

[COYS]

I agree with you. For now, Murphy's lack of playing time is a non issue. Our schedule gets a lot easier down the road, so we should see him get some big minutes over the next few weeks, along with Amile. The way I see it so far, Alex is currently in a tough spot. The rotation is pretty much set, and with these big games over the past few weeks there really wasn't much chance to crack it. I think Coach K's focus was to get through this endurance run and evaluate when the dust settles. I would expect Alex to get serious minutes against Delaware, and throughout the rest of the non-conference schedule. If he doesn't, then it is a different situation altogether.

There is precedent for this idea, too. Quinn Cook only managed 4 minutes against Michigan and 1 minute against Kansas in Maui last year. He got 4 minutes (all due to Tyler fouling out) against Washington. While he did get double digit minutes in the debacle at Ohio State, that was mostly because the entire team was playing terribly and Coach K played the bench quite a bit (Mike G got double digit minutes, as well). So, in the toughest early season games, Quinn got very little burn. Yes, it was slightly more than Alex, but really not that much more . . . and the Washington game was mostly due to necessity with other guards fouling out. He then came out over the December slate of games and even (temporarily) earned a starting spot.

Now, I'm not saying that's what will happen with Alex. But I do think it likely that he will get significantly more minutes over the next month than he has gotten so far, even his totals still rarely (if ever) go over 10 minutes. If he proves himself, there are probably more minutes to be earned.

[AtlDuke72]

Now, I'm not saying that's what will happen with Alex. But I do think it likely that he will get significantly more minutes over the next month than he has gotten so far, even his totals still rarely (if ever) go over 10 minutes. If he proves himself, there are probably more minutes to be earned.

Murphy seems like a good kid and a good teammate and I hope he eventually gets to play. Like many others I had expected that he would be playing based on the comments from the coaches over the summer. However, all of the gnashing of teeth over a guy who has yet to score a single point is way over the top. Something tells me that Coach K would play him more if he had earned it and playing him would help the team. Whose time do you want him to take? Coach k is not going to change his style, (at least I hope not) and the bench is as long as usual. My guess is that Sulaimon is just much better than expected and it will be hard for Alex or Amile to get any significant minutes this year.

[ricks68]

Please forgive what must seem like a dumb comment. This has been the most popular thread on the board over the last week, and I'm not understanding why. Maybe it's because I didn't follow Murphy's recruiting, but to me he's basically a freshman (albeit not a "true" one) whom none of us has seen play. He has three more years after this one, unless he becomes good enough to jump to the NBA. Why should it bother anyone that he isn't getting much playing time as a first-year player, especially when we're looking like the best team in the country? I don't understand why I should be concerned or even thinking about it.

If you are wanting to hear from the person that started this thread, here I am. The reason for its popularity will probably be found somewhere in the FAQ sticky's Throatybeard reference, as he must have some kind of heading (Since he has just about everything else covered, this is probably in there, too.) that encompasses the probability of a new thread reaching significance once the initial poster has been following the DBR boards for as long as the total ages of all contributing new thread posters divided by the total number of posters that are considered really knowledgeable on that particular subject. Now, that number is expressed in years, of course. Yes, in years. And yes, the number is huge.

So, what I am telling you is that it may take many thousands of years, like it feels like it's taken me, to finally start an apparently popular thread.;)

But, in all seriousness, a lot of people have evidently been asking themselves the same question, and so many good responses were posted, that it became a really popular basis for discussion. I think the recent responses to your question, already, by sagegrouse and m g says it pretty succinctly. In the discussion way prior to your inquiry, however, the thread is already loaded with numerous very logical reasons. Many of us appear to be just plain curious as to why a player so highly touted by Coach K just previous to the start of the new season is warming the bench.

ricks

[mapei]

Fair enough. Maybe I'll start one about Amile or Rodney Hood. ;)

[ricks68]

Fair enough. Maybe I'll start one about Amile or Rodney Hood. ;)

Good idea. Do it for Rodney Hood to see how many responses you'll get. Ha!

ricks

[Greg_Newton]

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/30/1220926?sac=fo.sports

Great article - he's got the right attitude, at least. Hopefully he can get comfortable mentally sooner rather than later.



"I think the coaches put a lot of trust in me right away at the beginning of the season, and not that I didn't deserve it or did deserve it, I think I need to continue to show them and prove to them and earn their trust more and more than I did," Murphy said. "That's every day in practice, and when I do get the opportunity in the game, really take advantage of it. It's a process day-by-day, and you can't look too far down the road."

...

"The biggest thing with me is confidence in myself and confidence in my own ability," Murphy said. "That's one thing, for whatever reason, that's been up and down for me, the biggest thing I've struggled with. The coaches have been real good with me, staying positive. They want me to believe I'm as good as they think I am."

...

"When I don't believe in myself, I tend to get a little nervous on the court, freeze up a little bit, think too much," Murphy said. "When I do that, I tend to make little mistakes you wouldn't make if you're just out there playing freely. I think I'm doing a better job of always having a positive look on my face and doing whatever I can do, whether it's two minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes on the court, trying to help this team win."

[gep]

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/30/1220926?sac=fo.sports

Great article - he's got the right attitude, at least. Hopefully he can get comfortable mentally sooner rather than later.

I was about to mention that article... It does seem that Alex is "all in"... and working hard.

[Indoor66]

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012/11/30/1220926?sac=fo.sports

Great article - he's got the right attitude, at least. Hopefully he can get comfortable mentally sooner rather than later.

It seems to me that this quote from Brother Murphy says it all. We can now close this thread. The horse has spoken.

[Skeelow22]

1st post on this site. Good read on Alex. Glad to see he is all in and a team player!

[jv001]

1st post on this site. Good read on Alex. Glad to see he is all in and a team player!

Good to hear from you over here on DBR. I've seen some good Duke video/pictures over at Marks BDN. GoDuke!

[Skeelow22]

Good to hear from you over here on DBR. I've seen some good Duke video/pictures over at Marks BDN. GoDuke!

Thanks! Good to see you over here too! Look forward to posting over here!

[OldPhiKap]

Thanks! Good to see you over here too! Look forward to posting over here!

Welcome!

[Skeelow22]

Welcome!

Thanks!

[OldPhiKap]

Murphy getting good floor burn. Looks good, but needs to take something other than a three. Something easier to get off the zip.

[jv001]

Murphy getting good floor burn. Looks good, but needs to take something other than a three. Something easier to get off the zip.

It really does help to see the ball go through the net. Get to the basket, young man. GoDuke!

[CDu]

Murphy getting good floor burn. Looks good, but needs to take something other than a three. Something easier to get off the zip.

I don't know if I'd say he "looks good" out there. He has been fairly non-noteworthy out there. Nothing too good, nothing too bad. His play has been pretty uneventful.

By comparison, Jefferson also gets limited minutes but just finds ways to get involved.

[jv001]

I don't know if I'd say he "looks good" out there. He has been fairly non-noteworthy out there. Nothing too good, nothing too bad. His play has been pretty uneventful.

By comparison, Jefferson also gets limited minutes but just finds ways to get involved.

Amile looks like he just gets it. Always around the ball and doesn't seem to get rattled. I expect big things for Amile before he's done. GoDuke!

[CDu]

Amile looks like he just gets it. Always around the ball and doesn't seem to get rattled. I expect big things for Amile before he's done. GoDuke!

Yeah, there's just something about him. Some players just find the ball. It appears that Jefferson is one of those guys.

[Dukeblue91]

Alex really hasn't shown anything being out there.
He looks lost at times and just hangs out in the corner and not much movement.
Amile on the other hand looked really active minus the fouls.

[jv001]

Alex really hasn't shown anything being out there.
He looks lost at times and just hangs out in the corner and not much movement.
Amile on the other hand looked really active minus the fouls.

Looks like he's lacking confidence and thinking too much. Putting too much pressure on himself. GoDuke!

[CDu]

A nice play by Sulaimon finally got Murphy on the scoreboard. He's since hit a 3 and made a nice wraparound dribble and just missed a driving layup.

He's still, unfortunately, not quite matching his major competition for minutes, though. Jefferson has 10 and 5 (and is heading to the line to add to that). So when Curry returns, it might be trouble for Murphy.

Still, progress for Murphy. That's a good thing.

[FerryFor50]

I don't know if I'd say he "looks good" out there. He has been fairly non-noteworthy out there. Nothing too good, nothing too bad. His play has been pretty uneventful.

By comparison, Jefferson also gets limited minutes but just finds ways to get involved.

He started out that way, but since he hit a couple baskets, he's been active and playing pretty well. I think he's a little stronger than Amile at this point, too.

Both will be solid by the end of the year, I think.

[FerryFor50]

A nice play by Sulaimon finally got Murphy on the scoreboard. He's since hit a 3 and made a nice wraparound dribble and just missed a driving layup.

He's still, unfortunately, not quite matching his major competition for minutes, though. Jefferson has 10 and 5 (and is heading to the line to add to that). So when Curry returns, it might be trouble for Murphy.

Still, progress for Murphy. That's a good thing.

Jefferson has been thrown around quite a bit due to his lack of strength... and this is just by Delaware's bigs. I still think that he'll be a great player, though.

[CDu]

Jefferson has been thrown around quite a bit due to his lack of strength... and this is just by Delaware's bigs. I still think that he'll be a great player, though.

I think that's a misleading commentary. Jefferson has more than held his own out there. Sure, he's gotten fouled by some BIG guys and not finished. But 12 and 6 (on 5-8 shooting) in 17 minutes is hard to argue with.

That said, Murphy is playing better and better as the game goes on. He's added a block, a steal, another jumper, and a nice lead pass that almost led to a bucket for Jefferson. He's up to 9 and 5, with a steal and a block in 18 minutes. Not bad at all.

Most importantly, he finally looks like he's comfortable out there. He had done literally nothing noteworthy in any games so far. In the second half today, though, he's looked very solid.

[RoyalBlue08]

I've never been a believer in this idea of getting minutes just for the sake of it, but it does appear that Alex's confidence is building minute by minute on the floor. Hopefully the kid can build on this game.

[FerryFor50]

I think that's a misleading commentary. Jefferson has more than held his own out there. Sure, he's gotten fouled by some BIG guys and not finished. But 12 and 6 (on 5-8 shooting) in 17 minutes is hard to argue with.

That said, Murphy is playing better and better as the game goes on. He's added a block, a steal, another jumper, and a nice lead pass that almost led to a bucket for Jefferson. He's up to 9 and 5, with a steal and a block in 18 minutes. Not bad at all.

Most importantly, he finally looks like he's comfortable out there. He had done literally nothing noteworthy in any games so far. In the second half today, though, he's looked very solid.

He physically has been thrown around. He's still played well, but he's not very strong yet. That is not really an arguable point... big guys or not. There are lots of big guys in college basketball.

[CDu]

He physically has been thrown around. He's still played well, but he's not very strong yet. That is not really an arguable point... big guys or not. There are lots of big guys in college basketball.

There aren't a lot of big SF, though. And that's where his minutes are going to come this year. His getting pushed around hasn't seemed a detriment to his performance thus far, has it?

[dcar1985]

He started out that way, but since he hit a couple baskets, he's been active and playing pretty well. I think he's a little stronger than Amile at this point, too.

Both will be solid by the end of the year, I think.

As he probably should be seeing as he spent all last year presumably in the weight room during his redshirt

[FerryFor50]

There aren't a lot of big SF, though. And that's where his minutes are going to come this year. His getting pushed around hasn't seemed a detriment to his performance thus far, has it?

Again, I never said it was. :)

I just think he needs to put on some weight and muscle, that's all. And I think Murphy is a bit more physically developed at this point.

They're both obviously skilled and will battle for minutes all year long.

[CDu]

Again, I never said it was. :)

I just think he needs to put on some weight and muscle, that's all. And I think Murphy is a bit more physically developed at this point.

They're both obviously skilled and will battle for minutes all year long.

Yes, Murphy is more physically developed. Jefferson has shown more productivity on the basketball court (lack of strength and all).

[Dukeblue91]

Okay I'm taking back what I said about Alex for today.
He really showed up in the second half and so did Amile.

[FerryFor50]

Yes, Murphy is more physically developed. Jefferson has shown more productivity on the basketball court (lack of strength and all).

Jefferson has had more opportunities. Alex acquitted himself just fine today after actually getting minutes.

[CDu]

Jefferson has had more opportunities.

Jefferson has EARNED more opportunities than Murphy.


Alex acquitted himself just fine today after actually getting minutes.

So did Jefferson.

[FerryFor50]

Jefferson has EARNED more opportunities than Murphy.



So did Jefferson.

So far, yes, Jefferson has earned more opportunities. I'm not sure why you keep acting like I'm saying Murphy is better. All I've said is Murphy is stronger. I never said he deserved minutes over Jefferson. I never said he played better. I said Jefferson is not as strong. That's it.

This really is an argument you're having with yourself. :)

[CDu]

So far, yes, Jefferson has earned more opportunities. I'm not sure why you keep acting like I'm saying Murphy is better. All I've said is Murphy is stronger. I never said he deserved minutes over Jefferson. I never said he played better. I said Jefferson is not as strong. That's it.

This really is an argument you're having with yourself. :)

Seems to me you've been participating in the argument. :)

The logical implication from the posts was that you felt Murphy should be getting the minutes. If you don't feel that way, then I agree that we're done here.

[OldPhiKap]

Can we change the title of this thread now, at least?

[Olympic Fan]

Before this thread is locked (because after today, it's irrelevant) I just wanted to add one thing.

In the postgame, Murphy was asked about the printed rumors (in Laura Keely's blog) about him transferring at the end of this semester. What was interesting is that the question was asked just as Keely came over to talk to Murphy.

Anyway, after Murphy stopped laughing, he made an emphatic statement: "That's not happening." He went on to state in about 10 different ways that he was happy at Duke, planned to be here for his entire career and had absolutely no plans and no thoughts of transferring.

[_Gary]

Before this thread is locked (because after today, it's irrelevant) I just wanted to add one thing.

In the postgame, Murphy was asked about the printed rumors (in Laura Keely's blog) about him transferring at the end of this semester. What was interesting is that the question was asked just as Keely came over to talk to Murphy.

Anyway, after Murphy stopped laughing, he made an emphatic statement: "That's not happening." He went on to state in about 10 different ways that he was happy at Duke, planned to be here for his entire career and had absolutely no plans and no thoughts of transferring.

Excellent news! Thanks for sharing that!!