Pairing the 5 Bigs

[ACCBBallFan]

Pairing the 5 "Bigs" (4 classified big by default)

Singler can be paired with anybody

Zoubek can only be paired with Singler if Paulus and Scheyer are both on the floor, not King or Defense is porous, not Lance/McClure or Zoubs is doubled too easily

McClure can only be paired with Singler, not King or too small even for small ball, not Lance or no Offense, not Zoubek or he gets doubled too easily

King can be paired with Singler or Lance, not Zoubek if Paulus and Scheyer are both on floor or defense is Porous, not McClure or too small even for small ball

Lance can be paired with Singler or King, not Zoubek or he gets doubled too easily, nor McClure or no Offense.

So from an opportunity standpoint, Singler should play about 80% of 40 minutes, or 32 minutes.

Lance and King should play about 40%, or 16 each, subtotal with Kyle 64 of 80 minutes

Zoubek and McClure should play about 20% or 8 each for total of 80 minutes by 5 "Bigs".

Dave could log some additional time as a perimeter defender/3.

[madscavenger]

All i know is that the man on this team that has the most experience guarding college bigs is DeMarcus, and until someone can demonstrate that a team out there can be better without him defensively, how can you leave him out of the mix if he's healthy and mobile (especially if we run some)?

[mgtr]

I agree with the foregoing -- while Nelson has had some shot problems, and shot selection problems, he is arhletic, mobile, and experienced. He is a great defender, and we know how much that counts in K's system. I expect to see him play as many minutes as anybody, as long as he is healthy.

[ACCBBallFan]

All i know is that the man on this team that has the most experience guarding college bigs is DeMarcus, and until someone can demonstrate that a team out there can be better without him defensively, how can you leave him out of the mix if he's healthy and mobile (especially if we run some)?I was speaking only of the F/C slots, the so-called "Bigs" whereas Nelson is not a "Big".

I agree Nelson-Henderson-Scheyer-Paulus will get at least 105 (25 each plus one may get 30) of the remaining 120 minutes on the perimeter, leaving only about 15 for Smith-Marty-Dave as a defender at the 3, when not a "Big in disguise".

To simplify it, you could think of Singler paired with (Zoubek or McClure) and Lance paired with King which would give both Lance and Dave room to mix it up, though having Kyle paired with Taylor occasionally will test the post defense more (for both teams).

[SilkyJ]

I'm not sure why you think Zoubek can't be paired with Lance. Especially if Lance has improved his midrange game a little (which was already decent) then I think that combo would be a force down low.

[Cameron]

Even though I am clearly not a big fan of Zoubek right now, I wouldn't see why he couldn't be paired with King Taylor. Actually, I think that would be a pretty good thing for Brian. If Taylor is playing as our second big, it would make sense for us to utilize the spacing he could create for Brian in the paint. Taylor's man wouldn't even be able to think about doubling on Brian with the way Taylor can shoot from anywhere on the court (that is if we are being played man-on-man obviously).

Because let's face it, Brian wouldn't be able to find the basket three times out of ten if being doubled. That's not a knock; just the truth.

We would definitely have to have DeMarcus and David on the floor at the same time, though, for the Zoubek-King combo to work, as they could certainly pick up some of the slack on defense. The only problem with this, however, is speed. Only DeMarcus would have great speed of the four, which, if we got into a running game, would kill us. We'd have to have Nolan running the point in order to produce more quickness out front on defense. Although, I am not quite sure how he'll matchup defensively yet.

Then again, while thinking this over again, the Zoubek-King combo may only work offensively. Could we institute a hockey-like change up:)? Then it might work.

Coach K will probably have a better answer:)

[unexpected]

In D-Marc's frosh year, he logged significant time at PF. He won't be the first big guy, but he's more than capable of being the #2 guy.

Zoubek/Thomas are probably going to have to shoulder 1st big responsibilities, though i see Thomas starting.

Taylor King is not going to get off the bench this year. We have too much depth at W/F for him too. I'd rather see McClure over King, especially defensively.

[smvalkyries]

I predict it will be a long year for us if Zoubek only averages 8 minutes a game.
On the other hand I can see this being a(nother) long year for us. You might even see us in a little zone this year to keep Zoubek on the court for a few more minutes.

[Cameron]

Taylor King is not going to get off the bench this year.

That's what many said about Jon Scheyer last summer. Even when we did need guard play, after having lost JJ, Sean, and Lee a year earlier.

We may have more spots filled this season at the "bigs" positions than what we had in the wing spots when Jon arrived, but that doesn't mean Taylor won't see considerable time. With Brian a complete work in progress, as well as still in rehabilitation from his early summer injury, he won't be seeing more than 25 minutes a game. No way. He's just not ready in my opinion. I'd be much more comfortable with DeMarcus playing center than Brian. Right now at least.

Bottom line, though, Coach K will not let a shooter like Taylor sit the bench all year. He loves his outside shooters like John Daly loves smoke. Remember when a kid named JJ came to town in 2002 not knowing the first thing about defense? How'd he fair in playing time? If you can shoot from 25 feet with the consistency that Taylor can, at the same time providing the great spacing that Coach K's offenses have become notorious for, you're playing. End of discussion.

And don't bring up the "Well Marty doesn't see the floor" card. Marty can't shoot from the outside, despite the fact that many have made him into a three-point shooting God who just can't seem to break the lineup. I've seen his stroke, and it's nowhere close to guys like Taylor and JJ. You don't sit instant offense on the bench, epsecially when, as a team, you struggled every night just to reach the "amazing" 70 point barrier.

Taylor will play over 20 minutes a night. Guaranteed.

[ACCBBallFan]

Even though I am clearly not a big fan of Zoubek right now, I wouldn't see why he couldn't be paired with King Taylor. Actually, I think that would be a pretty good thing for Brian. If Taylor is playing as our second big, it would make sense for us to utilize the spacing he could create for Brian in the paint. Taylor's man wouldn't even be able to think about doubling on Brian with the way Taylor can shoot from anywhere on the court (that is if we are being played man-on-man obviously).

Because let's face it, Brian wouldn't be able to find the basket three times out of ten if being doubled. That's not a knock; just the truth.

We would definitely have to have DeMarcus and David on the floor at the same time, though, for the Zoubek-King combo to work, as they could certainly pick up some of the slack on defense. The only problem with this, however, is speed. Only DeMarcus would have great speed of the four, which, if we got into a running game, would kill us. We'd have to have Nolan running the point in order to produce more quickness out front on defense. Although, I am not quite sure how he'll matchup defensively yet.

Then again, while thinking this over again, the Zoubek-King combo may only work offensively. Could we institute a hockey-like change up:)? Then it might work.

Coach K will probably have a better answer:)I agree Cameron. Zoubek-King Taylor will work if one of Paulus-Scheyer is not also on the floor at the time. It could work with one of Paulus/Scheyer paired wth two of (Nelson-Henderson-Nolan) which will happen on its own quite a bit anyway to spread PT at the 1,2, and 3 across the 6 very talented guys (Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-marty-Nolan).

Though Zoubek and Lance may be Duke's best two bigs, in general they are not as good overall as the opponent's bigs. Neither is an outside threat, though Lance may have improved in this regard. So having them in the game together makes it too easy for them to be guarded by an opponent who already has the edge in size (in Lance's case, not Zoubs) and talent and/or experience (in both cases).

Having Zoubek paired with Singler means Zoubek cannot be doubled unless they are willing to leave Singler, Paulus, Scheyer, Nelson or Henderson open while doubling Zoubs. 7'2" is a lot for any center to guard one on one.

Similarly having Lance paired with King Taylor means they have to cover Taylor's 3-threat with their most mobile big, and single cover Lance who may be able to use a quick first step to get by the less mobile big.

Either that or the opponent has to react by subbing out one of its bigs which was their former advantage to play another defender, the way Duke blinked first last year subbing out Zoubek.

In most situations Duke would gladly trade off any number of fouls on Zoubek and Lance if they could get almost that same number of fouls on the opponent’s two biggest guys, who presumably were more talented/experienced and weighted more than Lance.

Then the opponent is forced to rest its bigs and play the small ball Duke is best suited for anyway rather than play the traditional post play Duke is less suited for than the foe.

The only limitation I imposed was that the PT for Zoubek and McClure combined could not exceed the PT for Singler.

Many feel Zoubs will not be ready. I am in the camp which says he should be given every opportunity to succeed. So if Duke can get 20 minutes out of Zoubek, its only true center, great. Just pair him with Singler (not Lance, King or McClure). The exception being the one noted above OK for Zoubs-King Taylor is only one of Greg/Jon is on the floor.

If Duke can get another 20 minutes out of Lance, that's great too. Duke can pair Lance with either Singler or King (not Zoubek or McClure), more likely King if Singler already played 20 with Zoubek.

Now the only problem is there are no minutes left for McClure. He will see action however as Duke is likely to rack up a lot of fouls on its over manned bigs.

McClure does all the little things that don't get noticed, has a knack for the ball, the glue guy, yada yada, but he is not as good offensively as the 6 on the wings and not as tall nor does Dave McClure weigh more than the four on the inside. IMO, he makes his best contribution when paired with Singler (not ZoubLance or Kingsnoggle).

32 minutes for Singler is probably too much. So instead of 16 each, play King and Lance 20 each and take those 8 minutes from Singler who now plays 24. However, that only leaves 16 total for Zoubek and McClure.

Singler 24 - Lance 20 - King 20 - (Zoubek + McClure = 16).

Cameron, I know you are not a Zoubek proponent, so some of this applies to other fans comments and not yours.

There are 80 minutes to spread across IMO this priority Singler, Zoubek, Lance, King, McClure, though some would place Zoubs last while others may place him first, some would place King Taylor or McClure higher.

I have no problem for example with Singler 25, Zoubek 15, Lance 15, King 15, McClure 10, other than recognizing that Dave averaged 22 last year. But I think it is fair to say recruitment of Singler and King will chew into Josh's 35 and Dave's 22, just a question of how much.

If you did Singler 30, Zoubek 15, Lance 15, King 10, McClure 10, that would work too.

Singler 25, Zoubek 20, Lance 15, King 10, McClure 10 adds to 80 but Zoubek plus McClure add to 30which is less than Singler's 25. So in some cases, only 5 minutes, this rule of thumb I am suggesting would not be followed, and different pairings would occur. Most are easily abosrbed when two of (Nelson0henderson-Nolan) are inthe game anyway.

Singler 20, Zoubek 20, Lance 20, (King + McClure = 20) would add to 80 but for the number of minutes McClure plays, these guidelines would not be followed, which is OK too.

These are just a way of narrowing down the 462 permutations and combinations of playing 11 guys 5 at a time.

[ACCBBallFan]

I'm not sure why you think Zoubek can't be paired with Lance. Especially if Lance has improved his midrange game a little (which was already decent) then I think that combo would be a force down low.
Silky, if Lance has improved his outside game, or Dave for that matter, then they could easily be paired with Zoubek, other than it keeps the two best offensive "big" threats Singler and King on the pine.

Both Zoubek and Lance are foul prone. So if they are paired together, it won't be for long. They need to back one another up, and still likely won't make it 40 minutes without both fouling out.

While Singler may make a great 3, Duke already has 6 very talented guys at the 1, 2 and 3 and not enough PT to go around with Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Pocius-Smith. Dittto for King Taylor.

Duke only has 5 guys over 6'6" tall to play the other 2 "big" slots, and offense would be pretty weak without at least one of Singler/King on the floor, just as it was last year without Josh.

If the goal is to keep the scoring low for both teams late in a half/game for example, or if Duke's other bigs have a lot of fouls or are unavailable due to injury, Lance-Dave would be a good pairing.

[unexpected]

Arite Cameron....Gentlemen's bet:

Let's take my definition of riding the pine (less than 5 minutes a game) and your 20 minute prediction (25), and create an over/under at 12.5

I'll let you have the over ;-)

I just think Taylor King is too slow and won't know the D. I know he's a great shooter, but we have Scheyer, D-Marc when he's streaky, and Paulus. I just don't see what King brings to the table that Singler already doesn't...but we'll see!

[ACCBBallFan]

Arite Cameron....Gentlemen's bet:

Let's take my definition of riding the pine (less than 5 minutes a game) and your 20 minute prediction (25), and create an over/under at 12.5

I'll let you have the over ;-)

I just think Taylor King is too slow and won't know the D. I know he's a great shooter, but we have Scheyer, D-Marc when he's streaky, and Paulus. I just don't see what King brings to the table that Singler already doesn't...but we'll see!
You two could simplify your bet into who gets more minutes - Zoubek or King Taylor.

[Cameron]

You two could simplify your bet into who gets more minutes - Zoubek or King Taylor.

How about we go with this, unexpected?

75 million chips on King Taylor;)

Have you seen the development that Brian has made so far since his debut season? It's not very pretty. Now I understand he is coming off an early summer injury, but still. He might have only scored once or twice in the pickup games I saw him play in this summer. Pickup games. The complete opposite of defensive pressure. Sometimes against guys seven inches shorter than he is. It's hard to watch.

I would love to be wrong, though, and to see him flourish into the upper ranks of the ACC's premier big men, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Like you say, unexpected, we will see...

[ACCBBallFan]

How about we go with this, unexpected?

75 million chips on King Taylor;)

Have you seen the development that Brian has made so far since his debut season? It's not very pretty. Now I understand he is coming off an early summer injury, but still. He might have only scored once or twice in the pickup games I saw him play in this summer. Pickup games. Sometimes against guys seven inches shorter than he is. It's hard to watch.

I would love to be wrong, though, and to see him flourish into the upper ranks of the ACC's premier big men, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Like you say, unexpected, we will see...
Did not realize you had first hand witnessed some of the pick up games, but not surprising given your handle.

That's disappointing news if Zoubek was not scoring, unless he was being mauled by Lance like Jamal apparently did to him last year in pick up games.

Sounded like Laettner was busy whooping on Kyle and vice versa.

I did read where he gets frustrated when he misses, but also read where the teams were making it a point of emphasis to feed the post, apparently orders from the coaching staff in abstentia.

So I would have expected that Zoubs dominated the shorter guys, despite occasionally getting blocked by Nelson I think I read. I assume since he is so much bigger, Zoubs picks his spots on when to call a foul.

[Cameron]

Did not realize you had first hand witnessed some of the pick up games, but not surprising given your handle.

That's disappointing news if Zoubek was not scoring, unless he was being mauled by Lance like Jamal apparently did to him last year in pick up games.

I only watched about two nights worth, but, from what I saw, Brian's play looked rather poor. I'm not trying to knock one of our players, but he just wasn't playing very well. Like I said on an earlier thread, when Brian recieves the ball he either a) moves four steps without dribbling, b) gets the ball stripped in a nanosecond, or c) shoots and clears the cylinder by three feet. And when that's not happening, he's getting blocked.

In my opinion, Brian is still a year or two away from maturing into his currently awkward body. He just doesn't seem to "get it" yet. Does that make any sense?

I just don't know. He rebounds well, but then he gets the ball stripped just as fast. His biggest weaknesses right now are definitely lack of strength and abilility to score. The last being a pretty big problem.

Hopefully this season proves me wrong, though.

[ACCBBallFan]

Thanks, Cameron.

Yes it makes sense.

Other than travelling, I thought Zoubs biggest weakness was his tendency to bring the ball down (instead of holding it high) to the point Wojo would have to reach down for it. .

His next biggest need would be the leg strength to hold his ground and the hand strength to hold the ball in a vice grip not easily knocked out by smaller players.

While he can't work on leg strength, he can work on hand and upper body while he is recovering from injury.

He seems to have decent hands catching passes or rebounds, just needs to lose that habit of bringing the ball down rather than up, and

learn to either shoot immediately, preferably dunk or pass it back out after the proper pause to get his guard's defender betwixt and between

without dribbling first or travelling first.

[smvalkyries]

I appreciate your first hand report- unfortunately it ruins my day 3000 miles away LOL. At least our guards rebound well but I do not think your news bodes well for us.

[Cameron]

I'm just hoping that I saw the very worst games Brian played in and that someone else out there could provide some more information on his better ones...

Like I said, I only saw a couple nights worth. Perhaps he played better when I wasn't looking, lol:) ?? I know, I know, not very funny. Sorry to ruin your day, smval...

[unexpected]

I share your sentiments about Zoubek.

I don't think he'll play much, except in matchup situations, basically for the reasons you stated.

This year is where we really feel the loss of Jamal Boykins. That being said, I don't think King is the one to pick up the slack.

We can have Gentleman's bet #2 be whether or not who plays more: Zoubek or King. Despite my reservations on Zoubek, i still think he plays more than King.

[kramerbr]

Hopefully Zoubek will still be able to contribute on the boards and defensively if his offensive skills are as poor as reported. Luckily I think Duke should have plenty of offensive fire power, which should relieve some of the pressure for Brian to contribute much on the offensive end.

[ACCBBallFan]

Hopefully Zoubek will still be able to contribute on the boards and defensively if his offensive skills are as poor as reported. Luckily I think Duke should have plenty of offensive fire power, which should relieve some of the pressure for Brian to contribute much on the offensive end.
Good point. All the post defender has to do is rebound and damage control with some help defense to keep the opponent's big from having a double double. Scoring will come elsewhere.

In Zoubek's case he is so darn big though, he might draw some fouls, which would be a plus.

[smvalkyries]

With all due respect Unexpected- while from everything I have read and know Jamal Boykin was a class person who was a great asset to the Duke community as a who;le at 6-7 w/o a jump shot he was not going to fill our void in the middle nor is it clear or even likely that he would be commanding many if any minutes on the current roster. It is conceivable we might be missing Boateng, certainly Patterson or Monroe or even McBob but probably not Jamal.
What We really need is a mean and hungry big- someone want to start toying with Lance Thomas' food?

[gep]

Hopefully Zoubek will still be able to contribute on the boards and defensively if his offensive skills are as poor as reported. Luckily I think Duke should have plenty of offensive fire power, which should relieve some of the pressure for Brian to contribute much on the offensive end.

I like Zoubek based on what little I saw last year and what I've been able to read, and would really like to see him succeed. But, not being a basketball expert (skill-wise, analysis-wise, etc, but just a pure fan), I start to wonder why a big guy like Zoubek would choose Duke, and even why Duke would recruit him if he's not projected to contribute much on offense and little more on defense. When folks start saying "he gives us more fouls", that doesn't give me much reassurance. Others have said that a big guy takes a good 2 years to develop. I, for one, am rooting for Zoubek to have a good year, and great 3rd and 4th years.

One other of my observations. I think folks have mentioned his poor ball-handling on offense (also foot-work), but, if I recall correctly, when he rebounds, especially on the defensive end, he seemed pretty sure-handed to me. Thanks...

[Duke12]

Let's go with DeMarcus, Smith and Henderson out front before we start talking about "Bigs". Stopping dribble penetration is mission #1...pair those 3 with any combination of bigs. Unfortunately, Greg's plus/minus (to use a hockey term) will continue to be negative as he is simply a defensive liability despite his great attitude and work ethic.

[unexpected]

Smith is also going to sit on the bench. K would be hard pressed to give the ball from a good, ACC-proven PG to an inexperienced frosh just like that.

Paulus is Coach K's guy, he's said so as much many times last season. He also played on a broken foot. Just because he's a step slow doesn't mean that he's not the better PG.

I don't think Henderson starts either. He has amazing potential, but K always likes to have the go to 3 pt shooter on the floor. It'll be Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, Singler, and Thomas.

[ACCBBallFan]

Smith is also going to sit on the bench. K would be hard pressed to give the ball from a good, ACC-proven PG to an inexperienced frosh just like that.

Paulus is Coach K's guy, he's said so as much many times last season. He also played on a broken foot. Just because he's a step slow doesn't mean that he's not the better PG.

I don't think Henderson starts either. He has amazing potential, but K always likes to have the go to 3 pt shooter on the floor. It'll be Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, Singler, and Thomas.
You both agree on Demarcus.

I gotta beliee there's a much better chance of your Paulus-Scheyer than there is of Nolan-Henderson which has zero chance as Greg will start whether at PG or SG, and c=virtally certain it will be PG.

I still think Zoubek starts, (They probably mx and match depending on who the opponent has at its forward slots) but he and Lance will each get PT as each is foul prone.

Each may also require some occasional subbing out just for instruction purposes, or reinforcement of instructions from practice not being followed at the moment.

[Cameron]

^^Still strong on Zoubek, I see;)

I don't know... While I believe King Taylor will see plenty of PT because of his ability to score from anywhere on the court (and Coach LOVES his three-point specialists), I don't think he'll start. That second big man starter, alongside Singler, will probably be Lance. I agree with unexpected on that one. Lance and Kyle could prove to be a pretty tough inside combo in my opinion, considering both are pretty versatile. With a little strength added in the off-season, I look for Lance to become a very nice second year player.

But, still, let us not forget The King. He will be a nightmare scorer off the bench:) Hopefully.


I don't think Henderson starts either. He has amazing potential, but K always likes to have the go to 3 pt shooter on the floor. It'll be Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, Singler, and Thomas.


I agree on Jon. There is absolutely no way Jon does not start in his sophomore campaign. He was pretty much our best player all last season (josh who?) and really stepped up big in some of our more important games (the first Carolina meeting in particular, in which he scored a career high of 26). Coach K will not keep a very good ball handler and excellent outside shooter out of the starting lineup. And Jon is both.

I'm still debating, however, whether it will be DeMarcus or Gerald who will start alongside Greg and Jon. In an earlier thread, I know I placed Gerald in front, but I am not so sure now. I think in the end, Coach will stay loyal to his senior leader and give DeMarcus the nod. His defensive expertise will be needed with Jon and Greg starting at the other guard slots and Lance starting at forward. I really expect DeMarcus to be a Shane Battier type defender this season, in terms of being our team leader out on the floor and covering any spot that's needed. (It's just too bad DeMarcus isn't 6'9". Then we'd be on to something.)

[mapei]

>I think in the end, Coach will stay loyal to his senior leader and give DeMarcus the nod. His defensive expertise will be needed with Jon and Greg starting at the other guard slots and Lance starting at forward. I really expect DeMarcus to be a Shane Battier type defender this season, in terms of being our team leader out on the floor and covering any spot that's needed.

Yes to the first part of that. Nelson will start. But as to the second part: in your dreams. DM is far, far, far from Shane Battier on defense. Yeah, he's the best defender we have, and he can defend a number of positions, but that's as far as the comparison goes.

[mgtr]

I agree 100% on Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, and Singler. In the middle I think it has to be Zoubs. Based on what I saw last year, neither Zoubek nor Thomas looked ready to play. Assuming both have improved some for this year, Zoubek get the nod simply due to size. If he can rebound, block out, and run the floor, that may be enough with the scoring power of the other four. And, after three or four games, those who have said good riddance to McBob will be singing a diferent tune.

[Cameron]

Yes to the first part of that. Nelson will start. But as to the second part: in your dreams. DM is far, far, far from Shane Battier on defense. Yeah, he's the best defender we have, and he can defend a number of positions, but that's as far as the comparison goes.

By saying that DeMarcus would be a Battier-like defender this season, I was merely making a loose statement. I didn't say DeMarcus would be anywhere as good as Shane, just that he would be looked upon as this year's team leader and relied upon heavily to shift to the positions we need filled. And that is exactly the type of defensive leader Shane was. That was my main assumption.

Believe me, I saw Shane play his entire career, and no one who wears a college basketball jersey will EVER be a better defender than Shane Battier. He was one of a kind.

[mapei]

My all-time favorite callege athlete, actually.

[RockyMtDevil]

Um, It's Taylor King, not King Taylor fellas....

[Cameron]

Um, It's Taylor King, not King Taylor fellas....

Not on this website;) His new adopted name here is King Taylor.

[SilkyJ]

Not on this website;) His new adopted name here is King Taylor.

Its called a Play on words, and its awesome.